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The goal of your resume is to 
get a recruiter called, it's a 

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binary yes-or-no. 
That is the goal. 

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As soon as you have your 
recruiter, call. 

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Your resume doesn't really 
matter that much. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry sura, one. 

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And you're listening to the 
tekhelet journal. 

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The show will be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders 

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practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

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discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hello, my friend. 

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Welcome to the Tecla. 
Juno show with me. 

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00:00:50,500 --> 00:00:54,400
Oh host, Henry Surya with Robin.
It's great to be back here again

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00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,000
with a new episode sharing, my 
conversation with another great 

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00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:01,100
technical leader. 
Thank you for tuning in and 

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00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:03,700
spending your time with me 
today, listening to this 

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00:01:03,700 --> 00:01:06,100
episode. 
If you haven't joined any of the

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00:01:06,100 --> 00:01:09,100
technology, you know, social 
media channels, please spend a 

20
00:01:09,100 --> 00:01:12,600
few seconds right now, to click 
on the links in the show notes 

21
00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,600
where you can find this show, 
either on LinkedIn Twitter. 

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Our Instagram and join a fast 
growing number of people who 

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00:01:19,500 --> 00:01:21,500
have been following the show so 
far. 

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00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:25,800
Make sure to also, subscribe and
follow the show on your favorite

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podcast app. 
And for those of you longtime 

26
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listeners, if you have been 
enjoying and benefiting from the

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show so far. 
I am looking forward to hearing 

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00:01:34,300 --> 00:01:38,000
from your feedback or comments 
on the social media channels or 

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00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,100
even direct to me. 
I'm always happy to hear from 

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any of you and will do my best 
to keep on improving the show. 

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Last week, you have listened 
from my first Patron. 

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Tony long. 
Sharing his message about this 

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show and his favorite episode 
for today. 

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00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,900
I would like to introduce you to
my second Patron. 

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David cattle prod Noto from 
Indonesia. 

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He's a good friend of mine, and 
he has been a great supporter of

37
00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:05,500
this show. 
Even during the time, when all I

38
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had was just an idea of doing a 
podcast, his continuous support 

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00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:12,700
and feedback are one of my 
greatest source of inspiration 

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00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:14,800
so far. 
And I'd like to thank him for 

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00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:17,300
that. 
So let's hear from David what he

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00:02:17,300 --> 00:02:19,400
has to say about tekhelet 
Journal. 

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Hello everyone. 
My name is David from Jakarta, 

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Indonesia, and I'm currently 
working as an engineer at 

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00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:28,800
tokopedia. 
I've known Henry from way back. 

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Once I heard that he's planning 
to do a podcast with in the tech

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industry. 
I support him 110% and hopefully

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this can be xpeke as Jose and 
legs podcasts. 

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00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,800
Honestly, at first, I was a bit 
skeptical on how it's going to 

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00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,000
be, but as usual, Henry always 
manage to To exceed my 

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expectation. 
I acquired a lot of insights by 

52
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listening to all the experts 
here. 

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However, if I have to choose the
most memorable episode so far, I

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00:02:54,700 --> 00:02:57,800
have to choose tray and in no 
particular order. 

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He has to be the one with Jerome
hongyi and Crystal episodes. 

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As for the, why, besides the top
three victims at the end of the 

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00:03:06,500 --> 00:03:09,500
episodes. 
The Henry always asks, I also 

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find that their stories 
challenges and the things they 

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need to do to overcome them are 
personally responsible. 

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At the bill to me, I guess 
that's it. 

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Good luck Henry for the future 
episodes and I will always keep 

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supporting the podcast. 
Goodbye. 

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Thank you. 
Again. 

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David was such a great 
supporter. 

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I am extremely happy to hear 
that. 

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You have also benefited from the
show. 

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For those of you who are liking 
the show and would also like to 

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00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:36,700
make contribution to the show. 
You can find more information on

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00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:40,300
the patreon page at technology, 
you know dot f / Patron. 

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I'm currently running a goal on 
my patreon page and your support

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00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:46,800
with tremendously. 
Up me towards achieving it. 

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I'll guess what today's episode 
is, girl, gay or Rose GE GE is a

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seasoned software engineer and 
engineering manager. 

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And was last at Uber before 
Uber. 

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He also worked in other hyper 
growth companies, such as 

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Skyscanner and Skype. 
And I recently bumped into his 

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latest book, the tech resume 
inside out. 

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And I find that it is one of the
best resources that are found 

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for coming up with a great tech 
resume with lots of Balls on how

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to improve the resume 
specifically for technical 

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roles. 
And if any of you is currently 

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impacted by pandemic and is 
looking for a job, GE, GE 

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00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,700
currently offers this book for 
free, which you can find more 

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00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:32,200
information about on its 
website, the tech resume.com, 

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which you can also find in the 
show notes in this episode gag. 

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A shared about his interesting 
career Journey path starting 

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from being a software engineer 
at small companies and then 

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moving to hyper growth startups 
and becoming engineering 

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manager. 
We then moved on to discuss 

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about tech resume, how important
it is to get it right based on 

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his early hard lessons, and his 
experience being at the other 

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side, as the hiring manager, 
which then led him to writing 

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the book. 
Next, we had insightful 

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discussion about his experience 
at Uber and how the engineering 

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team works there, including his 
first-hand experience seeing 

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Ubers pace of change GE GE 
recently, quit boober. 

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And he shared with me his 
reasoning and what he currently 

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has for his future plan. 
Lastly, we discussed about his 

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block, the pragmatic engineer, 
and some of his popular posts on

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topics such as what Silicon 
Valley companies get right, when

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dealing with software engineers.
Distributed architecture 

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Concepts and why software 
architecture is overrated. 

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While clear and simple design is
underrated. 

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I hope that you will enjoy this 
great episode. 

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Please. 
Consider helping the show in the

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00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:49,300
smallest possible way by leaving
me a rating and review on Apple 

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00:05:49,300 --> 00:05:52,400
podcast and other podcast apps 
that allow you to do. 

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00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,300
So, those ratings and reviews 
are one of the best ways to get 

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00:05:56,300 --> 00:05:58,500
this podcast to reach more 
listeners. 

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00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:01,700
And hopefully, the show gets 
featured on the podcast 

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00:06:01,700 --> 00:06:04,400
platform. 
Let's get the episode started 

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right after our sponsor message.
Are you start up in software 

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development Which is less than 
five years old. 

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00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,900
If yes, our sponsor at jetbrains
have a 50% startup discount 

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offer, which allows startups to 
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months to find out more search 
for jetbrains startup discount 

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00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:29,900
offer, or you can check out the 
link mention in the show notes. 

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00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:35,400
Welcome gate to technology. 
You know, show is really a 

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pleasure to meet you. 
I saw you on LinkedIn. 

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Somebody posts. 
Something about your book 

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recently, which is called tech 
resume book. 

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I found it interesting. 
I bought it. 

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I read it and I think we will 
talk about that as well. 

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It's really good to have you in 
the show. 

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Yeah. 
Yeah. 

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Looking forward to learning from
you. 

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Yeah, really good to be on the 
show. 

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Thanks for inviting me. 
So the gay I saw your profile. 

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You have tremendous career 
Journey starting from working as

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a software engineer and then 
climb the ladder into different 

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companies work in Tech you. 
Cons. 

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The last one was Uber before you
quit. 

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Just a few weeks ago. 
I guess I'm so maybe you can 

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share with us. 
First of all, what's your career

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Journey? 
Like? 

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So, you can mention some of your
major highlights probably or sub

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turning points that change your 
career. 

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00:07:15,100 --> 00:07:17,000
Yeah. 
So while looking back, I'm 

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pretty happy with my career 
Journey, all the boat looking 

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00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:20,800
forward. 
It is hard to predict on how 

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things will end up with. 
I did a computer science degree 

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back and I'm originally from 
Hungary. 

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So small country in the middle 
of Europe. 

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While I was working at 
University. 

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It was an interesting degree 
where I did six years and I only

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got a master's degree. 
So instead of the usual 

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bachelor's and Master's, this 
was back in the day before, 

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there was a split. 
And in the last two years. 

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I work full-time at a small 
local company building content 

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Management Systems back, then 
these things were big but as 

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working on that and right, as I 
graduated, I decided to move 

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abroad partially because I had a
girlfriend that I'm from the US 

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who went to study to Edinburgh 
in the UK, going to straight to 

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the us as a graduate is 
difficult, and it didn't really 

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make sense, but we just moved 
there. 

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So I just moved her chattering 
burrow out of college and I was 

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00:08:01,300 --> 00:08:03,700
lucky enough to join. 
Company, that was a financial 

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00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:06,100
consultancy. 
It was really difficult to get 

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00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:07,500
in there. 
I was a little bit lucky. 

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This was my first job and I was 
struggling to get interview. 

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So I arrived, I had a really 
good degree in hungary's. 

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Best university. 
I was top of the class. 

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I even was on imagine cup, which
is a Microsoft competition back 

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then. 
It was the biggest software 

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engineering competition in the 
world. 

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And with our team, we came third
worldwide and we got a special 

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invitation to Silicon Valley as 
well. 

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And I was not getting any 
injuries at all. 

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I felt really strange. 
I'm like, I think I'm smart. 

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Think I know what I'm doing. 
Anyway, after a few weeks. 

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I did get a couple of interviews
and I got offers wherever 

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interviewed later. 
It was interesting because some 

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of the recruiters told me that 
they were recruiting for the 

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company that I eventually got 
hired for but they thought I 

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didn't stand a chance. 
One of the things that helped me

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get. 
My first job actually, is I 

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over-prepared. 
So back then. 

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I didn't know what to expect for
interviews. 

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But when I Googled interview 
preparation, there was this 

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course from Stanford saying 
beating the Google interview, 

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and this was back in 2009 or so.
We knew that Google had 

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difficulty interviews, but there
is no preparation. 

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So I actually prepare for the 
Google injury. 

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I prepare for the coding, the 
algorithmic will sell 

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00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,500
challenges, and this company was
asking those challenges. 

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So, I had to developers asking 
me to code and white board and 

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do all these things. 
And I actually practiced all of 

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this later. 
They told me that they hired 

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about one candidate from about 
100 and they were doing this, 

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00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:25,200
Google sounds of your super 
early on. 

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But it goes back to the fact 
that I knew that my background. 

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It was clear that I didn't have 
strong credentials in the new 

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00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:32,900
country. 
So I just overheard Where'd the 

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00:09:32,900 --> 00:09:35,300
nice thing about joining, a 
company that has a hiring bar? 

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00:09:35,300 --> 00:09:37,500
I work with really smart people,
and some of those people are 

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actually very active still in 
today's Community. 

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00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,000
One of the people is the leading
figure in the webassembly 

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community, and I had really good
mentors from there on. 

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00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,800
I spent two years there building
small products. 

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00:09:46,900 --> 00:09:49,500
I moved up to London, which is a
big leap from me from Edinburgh.

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00:09:49,500 --> 00:09:51,600
All the way to London. 
I worked at JPMorgan. 

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00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:53,800
Big Investment Bank work with 
the trading floor. 

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00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:57,300
I was very interesting learning 
for finance and how Traders work

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00:09:57,300 --> 00:09:59,800
and how our trading desk move 
huge amounts of money. 

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00:09:59,800 --> 00:10:02,100
And it was interesting to see 
how this happening, but it was 

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00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:05,000
not Very interesting software 
engineering challenge on the 

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00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:06,800
side. 
I was building apps side 

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00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:09,200
projects and I was a prominent 
figure in the Windows Phone 

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00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,900
ecosystem at built a couple of 
apps that were very well known 

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00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:15,000
and then Microsoft reach out to 
me saying, we can tell you what 

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00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:17,500
we're doing, but it's going to 
be something new, and exciting, 

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00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,700
and it turned out to be the sky 
for Xbox one. 

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00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,300
They were building it in London.
So I joined Skype or Microsoft 

215
00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:26,000
right after they acquire Skype 
and Microsoft, had this new 

216
00:10:26,000 --> 00:10:28,800
policy to leave the company's 
completely alone for 18 months. 

217
00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:30,800
So it didn't feel like Microsoft
at all. 

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00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,200
And this was the old Microsoft 
of Steve. 

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00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:34,700
Bombers Microsoft, it just felt 
exactly like Skype. 

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00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:37,400
So we're a small team, we could 
do whatever we wanted. 

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00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,400
And then in London we built sky 
for Xbox one. 

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00:10:39,400 --> 00:10:41,800
We shipped it, which was a 
really fun project on launch 

223
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:43,100
week. 
We had a million people use the 

224
00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,300
product that we used on the 
Skype was a huge feature for 

225
00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:47,000
Xbox one. 
It was the first console that 

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00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,900
was just not a games console. 
And I moved on to different team

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00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:51,900
to build Skype for web, which 
was a Google Hangouts. 

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00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:54,600
Competitor. 
Also of very fun challenges, as 

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00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:56,100
I did. 
I kept changing Stacks. 

230
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,100
So that was also something 
interesting that I didn't 

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00:10:58,100 --> 00:11:01,700
deliberately Zoo, but when I 
joined Microsoft, they hired me 

232
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as a seizure. 
Developer C, sharp wpx, a mold 

233
00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:06,500
that kind of stuff, cause that's
what we're supposed to build 

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Skype with one month into the 
project. 

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00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,900
We were told the C, sharp 
compiler will not ship on Xbox. 

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00:11:11,900 --> 00:11:14,300
They don't have time to do. 
It is going to be HTML and CSS 

237
00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:17,500
and Steve lost on the back end. 
And so we just had to relearn 

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00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:18,800
that stuff. 
We're looking back. 

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00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,900
One of the learnings I had in my
career is whenever you have a 

240
00:11:20,908 --> 00:11:23,200
challenge, you can just turn 
that into an opportunity. 

241
00:11:23,300 --> 00:11:25,800
Our team was really upset. 
Some people are like, I don't 

242
00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,000
know. 
I might just quit. 

243
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,400
This is ridiculous. 
I'm not going to do its 

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00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,200
JavaScript and HTML. 
This was back in 2013 before. 

245
00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:35,300
For es5 was not even a thing. 
So it was a wild west. 

246
00:11:35,300 --> 00:11:37,400
The best book to learn 
JavaScript was JavaScript the 

247
00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,100
good parts. 
And I also joined this crowd for

248
00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:41,700
a few weeks, but then I thought,
you know, what? 

249
00:11:41,700 --> 00:11:44,200
If you can't beat them, join 
them, so I figured let me just 

250
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,800
learn JavaScript really properly
and we have this framework 

251
00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:48,500
called when Jays. 
And in the end, I ended up 

252
00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:51,000
recording a course on wind Json.
How to use wind. 

253
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,800
Yes. 
We became wind JS experts, which

254
00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:55,700
was actually one of the I think 
most popular winges courses at 

255
00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:58,300
the time taken when Jess is 
gone, and it's not used but I 

256
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:00,200
just said, look, let me take 
this opportunity to become an 

257
00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,100
expert in something new 
something interesting. 

258
00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,900
Just to wrap up after Microsoft 
after things still down. 

259
00:12:04,900 --> 00:12:07,000
I jumped ship to start up called
Skyscanner. 

260
00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:08,300
There are flight booking 
service. 

261
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,800
You can find the cheapest flight
tickets worldwide. 

262
00:12:10,900 --> 00:12:13,000
We're not flying as much but 
when we do, they're really good 

263
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:14,700
service. 
I joined a small team there and 

264
00:12:14,700 --> 00:12:17,600
it was a little bit of startup 
in a start-up and then, finally,

265
00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:19,200
I spend the last four years. 
I do /. 

266
00:12:19,300 --> 00:12:21,200
I joined. 
When the team was about 25, 

267
00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,900
engineers in Amsterdam, and then
it grew up to, like about 150 

268
00:12:24,900 --> 00:12:27,300
Engineers, which was really fun.
Girlfriend, and I worked on 

269
00:12:27,308 --> 00:12:30,000
different projects. 
So since sky for the past eight 

270
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:31,800
years. 
I've been working in what I 

271
00:12:31,808 --> 00:12:33,600
would call. 
Hyper-growth environments, which

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00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,300
is absolutely accidental. 
I had no idea this would happen,

273
00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:39,600
but I didn't join when the team 
was size X and I left when the 

274
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,100
team was 3x or 4X and I saw that
growth and it's always really 

275
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:44,800
fun. 
There's a lot of challenges 

276
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,100
where you have to hire but keep 
the morale at Skyscanner. 

277
00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:51,000
I started to become a manager 
and repairing a small team and 

278
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,100
an Uber, I joined as an 
engineer, but I very quickly 

279
00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,100
basically went back or became a 
manager again. 

280
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:57,200
What I left I was managing a 
manager as well. 

281
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,100
As I was on that managing 
managers track potentially. 

282
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:02,800
Thanks for sharing your story. 
It's very very Interesting. 

283
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:04,200
Even starting from the 
beginning. 

284
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,500
You didn't get any interviews at
all. 

285
00:13:06,500 --> 00:13:08,500
No chance of you getting a good 
job. 

286
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:12,500
You climb from a small company 
and up to the latest one, which 

287
00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,900
is Uber which you categorized as
a hyper Growth Company, maybe 

288
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:19,000
the first lessons there. 
So why do you think it was hard 

289
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,400
for you to get interviews? 
Because obviously, now these 

290
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:22,700
days there are so many tech 
companies. 

291
00:13:22,700 --> 00:13:24,500
Do you actually see similar 
things? 

292
00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,600
Like, maybe some people just not
visible enough like they 

293
00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,300
couldn't get interviews because 
of something. 

294
00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:31,000
Maybe you can share from your 
experience. 

295
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:33,200
Yeah. 
I think it's Uma nature at the 

296
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:34,900
time. 
I was super upset at recruiters,

297
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,600
I thought recruiters had it out 
for me. 

298
00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:39,900
I thought they were being nasty 
or something and a lot of people

299
00:13:39,900 --> 00:13:42,400
are like this with recruiters. 
You will see people post, people

300
00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:44,500
are upset at recruiters. 
When they get a template 

301
00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:46,100
message, they're upset at 
recruiters. 

302
00:13:46,100 --> 00:13:48,900
When they get messages of, let's
say, someone got hired to a good

303
00:13:48,900 --> 00:13:50,700
company and they get a lot of 
messages. 

304
00:13:50,700 --> 00:13:52,800
I would also offset. 
So, after I got hired, I started

305
00:13:52,800 --> 00:13:55,300
to get message from recruiter 
saying, hey, are you interested 

306
00:13:55,300 --> 00:13:56,700
in other job and I was a bit 
upset. 

307
00:13:56,700 --> 00:13:58,000
What do you mean? 
You never talk to me? 

308
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,800
Why are you talking me now? 
But especially at ruber I got to

309
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,500
know recruiters really well, and
I'm I was very curious. 

310
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,200
It is good to understand the 
recruiters point of view. 

311
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:08,800
If any software and you're 
listening to this podcast, you 

312
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,500
have a great job. 
We have a great job recruiting. 

313
00:14:11,500 --> 00:14:14,000
I'm going to be honest is a 
pretty terrible job for the most

314
00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:15,700
part. 
If you ever talk to her cooter 

315
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:18,000
asked and how they got into 
recruiting and a lot of 

316
00:14:18,008 --> 00:14:21,100
recruiters will tell you well 
and had an Arts major and I want

317
00:14:21,100 --> 00:14:22,500
to do something, but I couldn't 
get a job. 

318
00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:25,200
And then there was recruiting. 
There are very few recruiters 

319
00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,300
who will tell you. 
I graduated out a recruiting 

320
00:14:27,300 --> 00:14:29,000
school and I wanted to be a 
recruiter. 

321
00:14:29,100 --> 00:14:32,000
Usually, it's a secondary 
choice, and on top of that, they

322
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,100
have Really hard expectation, 
even at the likes of uber, 

323
00:14:35,100 --> 00:14:37,300
there's hard expectations. 
They tell you, you need to 

324
00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:39,000
contact this many people per 
week. 

325
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:41,700
You need to get this many people
on site, you need to do this, 

326
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,200
you need to do that. 
It's numbers again, at better 

327
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,900
companies. 
It gets a little bit better but 

328
00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:47,400
it is hard to get there. 
You have to go through 

329
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,900
basically, the grind and 
recruiters will have some mental

330
00:14:49,900 --> 00:14:51,600
models. 
For example, they will try to 

331
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:54,000
optimize their time. 
I'll give an example, a lot of 

332
00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:56,900
Engineers complain, why they get
templated messages and I asked 

333
00:14:56,900 --> 00:14:59,300
recruiters the same thing. 
Turns out that most of them when

334
00:14:59,300 --> 00:15:01,600
they start out, they actually 
write personalized messages. 

335
00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,600
They look at A cover for your 
GitHub, but they quickly realize

336
00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,800
that they still don't get an 
answer from a lot of people 

337
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,000
because let's say, if you're 
really enjoying your job right 

338
00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:11,400
now, you're not going to apply. 
It doesn't matter how nice that 

339
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,000
messages. 
You just don't want to change. 

340
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:15,000
So after a while, they realize 
that, even if they send the 

341
00:15:15,008 --> 00:15:17,700
short message, you get a roughly
same response rate because turns

342
00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:20,100
out that, if you are interested 
in the job, let's say you're 

343
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:22,200
listening and you're not working
at Google and someone from 

344
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:23,500
Google messages. 
You, hey, would you be 

345
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:25,900
interested in working at Google 
and you're thinking, oh, wow, 

346
00:15:25,900 --> 00:15:28,200
this is great. 
So the end of optimizing for 

347
00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:30,400
love and finally, they see some 
patterns. 

348
00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:32,800
So I now see, the reason I 
wasn't getting any Interviews, I

349
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:34,800
was coming from a place that was
not the UK. 

350
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:39,000
I had zero UK experience and 
just to generalize people like 

351
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,100
this, usually don't do well on 
job interviews. 

352
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:44,000
My resume was also terrible. 
I put my photo on there. 

353
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,600
I put the first five step 
Hungarian, which you never put 

354
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,900
on there. 
I put my birthdate, the format 

355
00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:51,500
just screamed. 
This person does not belong 

356
00:15:51,500 --> 00:15:52,900
here. 
There are some one else and 

357
00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:54,300
recruiters. 
They just put it to the bottom 

358
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,400
of their list. 
They saw local applicants who 

359
00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,900
they thought had a higher 
chance. 

360
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200
So my resume was also not 
telling that story, but it's not

361
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,800
just a resume whenever Go 
somewhere new and you have zero 

362
00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:05,700
references. 
It's hard to break and it is 

363
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,300
hard to break into Tech, unless 
you order additional route of 

364
00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:10,000
University, where it is a bit 
easier. 

365
00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:11,500
It is still hard through 
bootcamps. 

366
00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:14,000
Once you land that first job 
though, it gets a lot easier. 

367
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,400
So I can understand when you 
mention about this recruiter. 

368
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,100
I can also empathize with them 
their job. 

369
00:16:20,100 --> 00:16:22,100
How hot it is. 
They probably need to message. 

370
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:25,600
Hundreds could even be thousands
of candidates maybe only 10 

371
00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,700
percent response rate. 
I could be even lesser. 

372
00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:31,200
So I really can empathize it. 
Let's switch back to the resume.

373
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,500
You talking about you. 
Mention about some of the bad 

374
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:36,800
things that you did. 
Last time, why you put pictures 

375
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,500
or maybe mention about 
nationality? 

376
00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:41,000
And I saw that. 
You also wrote a book called the

377
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,400
tech resume book. 
I think it's very interesting. 

378
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,100
Maybe you can share a bit about 
that. 

379
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:47,000
Book. 
What makes you write the book 

380
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,000
for a? 
So, this was very interesting. 

381
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,000
The book is called to detect a 
resume inside out and it refers 

382
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,200
to the fact that it's giving a 
little bit inside or knowledge. 

383
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:58,000
A lot of times books that are 
written of, let's say how to do 

384
00:16:58,000 --> 00:16:59,700
this, how to do that. 
People doing it, who've done 

385
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:01,800
that. 
But you rarely see books, where 

386
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,400
it's written. 
From the other side, you will 

387
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,099
see a lot of job Seekers or lot 
of career coaches who say I can 

388
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:08,900
help you write a great resume 
because I've helped other people

389
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,900
but I always found it 
interesting to get advice from 

390
00:17:10,900 --> 00:17:12,599
people who actually on the other
side. 

391
00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:15,500
So this book is written by 
myself as a hiring manager and I

392
00:17:15,508 --> 00:17:18,200
have a lot of insights from 
recruiters and Tech managers 

393
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:20,500
almost everyone contributing to 
the book is not people who have 

394
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,700
written and submitted. 
Their resumes is the people who 

395
00:17:22,700 --> 00:17:25,500
are sitting on the other side, 
going through them and deciding.

396
00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:26,200
Yes. 
No, yes. 

397
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:27,099
No, yes. 
Yes. 

398
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:28,400
Yes. 
And the reason I wrote this 

399
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:30,900
book, if covid-19 happened. 
This book would have definitely 

400
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,400
not happened. 
I was writing a book on growing 

401
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,500
as a software engineer and I had
a contract with a publisher. 

402
00:17:36,500 --> 00:17:37,900
I'm still writing this book by 
the way. 

403
00:17:37,900 --> 00:17:40,400
So this will be my next one. 
The book was about how to grow 

404
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:43,400
from entry level engineer at a 
tech company, like the likes of 

405
00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,500
Google Facebook, Uber Lyft Etc. 
Going to senior all the way to 

406
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:50,600
staff and principal positions, 
and I find to have a small short

407
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,200
chapter on, changing jobs, 
because I think to grow as your 

408
00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,400
career, it is important to go 
out on a job market. 

409
00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:57,700
Every few years and evaluate 
yourself. 

410
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,000
And then covid, started. 
I stopped writing the book 

411
00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:02,100
because we had a lot of things 
to take care of that Hooper. 

412
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:05,300
And also they asked him to Burr 
to my old company Skyscanner. 

413
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:08,700
They were hit quite hard and I 
was thinking how I can help 

414
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:11,100
people. 
So I offered to do resume 

415
00:18:11,100 --> 00:18:14,200
reviews, both for people who are
impacted that I knew personally 

416
00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,500
and I put it on Twitter as well 
as saying, if anyone's looking 

417
00:18:16,500 --> 00:18:18,900
for a job as a developer and you
want some rest of the feedback, 

418
00:18:18,900 --> 00:18:21,800
let me know and I got a lot more
responses than I expected. 

419
00:18:21,900 --> 00:18:24,200
And this made me realize two 
things first as a hiring 

420
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:25,700
manager. 
I'm used to just really bad 

421
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,500
software developer resumes, and 
we're okay with that because 

422
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:31,200
usually you don't have that many
applicants except for maybe New 

423
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:32,200
grads where there's always a 
lot. 

424
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,400
Applications for senior, my most
common software resume as a 

425
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:38,600
LinkedIn screenshot. 
And we spend the time look 

426
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,100
through it because even for 
likes of Looper, there aren't 

427
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,800
usually as many senior 
applicants before covid, but 

428
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:44,700
now, this has changed 
drastically. 

429
00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,600
I talked with a lot of hiring 
managers at other companies and 

430
00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,400
the people were hiring, they 
were seeing surges of 10 or even

431
00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:53,700
sometimes 20x to the usual 
applications and resumes, some 

432
00:18:53,700 --> 00:18:56,300
of these order to matter. 
The resume feedback that I give 

433
00:18:56,300 --> 00:18:58,900
to people, people said that 
actually help them get that 

434
00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:01,600
first recruiter call. 
And then I decided to kill two 

435
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:02,700
birds with one stone. 
Stone. 

436
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:06,100
So I started to scale myself. 
I got so many about application 

437
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:08,200
that I could get high-quality 
feedback for let's say the first

438
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,000
50 and then I just did what you 
usually do. 

439
00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:12,300
While what I usually do. 
I put together the most common 

440
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:14,700
advice and ended up putting in a
PDF and I sent it to everyone 

441
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:16,100
else. 
Saying, read all of this stuff, 

442
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:19,100
look at the this and the section
and this might apply a bit more 

443
00:19:19,100 --> 00:19:21,500
per to and now why did it turn 
into a book? 

444
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:23,300
I could have just stopped at 
this PDF or it could have been a

445
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:25,100
blog post. 
But as I was writing this other 

446
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:28,400
book, I did want to just 
experiment with what it is to 

447
00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,400
write a proper ebook. 
As I started to write. 

448
00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:32,100
I thought this ebook will be 
very short. 

449
00:19:32,300 --> 00:19:35,300
About 80 pages in the end. 
It turned about into 200 Pages 

450
00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:38,000
because I feel this topic of 
resumes is very fluffy and I 

451
00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:41,400
would have felt very bad just to
put out something generic. 

452
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:44,100
So I turn into something that I 
would want to read, which is 

453
00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:46,200
very specific advice would 
example saying, right. 

454
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,000
Here's an example of this 
section here is the original 

455
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:51,700
resume sample, that I got 
permission to use from people. 

456
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:53,800
And here's the improved one. 
And here's why it's better. 

457
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:56,700
And I also wanted to have actual
resumes that are before and 

458
00:19:56,700 --> 00:19:58,600
after resume. 
So I asked permission from a 

459
00:19:58,608 --> 00:20:00,700
bunch of people who end up 
getting interviews and later 

460
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:02,500
drops. 
And then finally, I Also, added 

461
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:04,500
some resume template. 
So it's a bit more than a book. 

462
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:07,300
I personally think it's the best
resume resource for good advice,

463
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:09,300
but you have to spend a lot of 
time to figure out what is good 

464
00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:11,300
advice. 
Some of the advice out there as 

465
00:20:11,300 --> 00:20:13,200
I was writing it. 
I realized it's really bad 

466
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,400
advice. 
There's a whole industry that is

467
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,200
built on trying to have you part
from your money and they're 

468
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:21,600
saying things like robots, can 
resumes and the 80s system 

469
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:23,600
application trying to sum all of
it is false. 

470
00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:26,400
There's a hint of Truth in it, 
but these companies are doing it

471
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,100
because they can charge 
additional services to this for 

472
00:20:29,100 --> 00:20:31,500
job Seekers. 
And that's also one thing that I

473
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:32,800
really don't want to. 
What this book? 

474
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,200
I wrote this book and I'm 
selling it because I believe 

475
00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,300
that when you pay for something 
you are more likely to use it. 

476
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:40,900
I think Gage readers, but for 
the people who need it, most 

477
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:42,600
people who are out of a job is 
free. 

478
00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:44,700
There's no strings attached. 
They get the whole thing. 

479
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:47,200
The only thing I'm asking from 
people is if you do get a job, 

480
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:48,900
just help someone it can be 
anyone. 

481
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:50,200
It doesn't even have to buying 
the book. 

482
00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:52,300
Just Mentor. 
Someone do public talks if you 

483
00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:54,900
want to buy this book for 
another job Seeker, but I'm 

484
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:57,500
hoping to just give back to the 
community a bit like this. 

485
00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,500
And so far. 
The interesting thing was, I was

486
00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:02,100
expecting that a lot of people 
would ask for free book. 

487
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,000
And it's probably been about 
four people. 

488
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,600
Buy the book and one person 
asked for a book in the sense 

489
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,800
that they're out of a job is 
unexpected for me. 

490
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,400
Again. 
I don't have any goals here. 

491
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:12,700
So either people are buying it 
for people who don't have a job 

492
00:21:12,700 --> 00:21:15,200
are buying it as well. 
Or maybe there's not as many 

493
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,800
Engineers out of a job as I seen
or maybe not as many people know

494
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,500
about it. 
Because again, I'm fine to keep 

495
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:22,500
it like this, at least until for
another year on the covid 

496
00:21:22,500 --> 00:21:24,400
subsides. 
And we're getting a little bit 

497
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,500
back to normal. 
So I bought the book as well. 

498
00:21:26,500 --> 00:21:29,600
I saw the contents. 
I also saw the examples that you

499
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,000
have and especially what I find 
very useful. 

500
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,100
Is that you compare the before 
and after what was it like 

501
00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:38,100
before and how you improve with 
all the messages that you have 

502
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:41,000
and all the explanations that 
you gave including some of the 

503
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,300
templates that people can use 
and agree as well. 

504
00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:46,200
There are not many resources for
developers to write a good 

505
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,000
resume. 
I think this is one good 

506
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:50,900
resource that I found lately 
about how to write a good tech 

507
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:52,900
resume. 
But first of all, maybe if you 

508
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:55,700
can highlight a few things, what
are some of the common pitfalls 

509
00:21:55,700 --> 00:22:00,500
that every tacky rights in terms
of their resume, the most common

510
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:01,900
Pitfall that I was doing for a 
long? 

511
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,600
Time is you just don't really 
know what you're supposed to do.

512
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,600
You just take a template. 
You look at someone else's 

513
00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,900
resume and you're like, okay. 
I'm just going to write all the 

514
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:09,600
stuff. 
I did. 

515
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:13,100
You write your life story and 
you never pause for a second to 

516
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:16,000
think, who am I writing this? 
And what is my goal? 

517
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,200
I never asked this question, but
you should ask your question. 

518
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,500
What is the goal of your resume?
There is only one good answer to

519
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:24,300
this and most people don't know 
what the goal of your resume is 

520
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:26,500
to get a recruiter called. 
It's a binary yes-or-no. 

521
00:22:26,700 --> 00:22:29,000
That is the goal. 
As soon as you have your 

522
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,000
recruiter, call. 
Your resume doesn't really 

523
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,600
matter that much. 
Means you're now, the next stage

524
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,600
of the process. 
What matters is what you 

525
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,000
interact with the recruiter, you
can, then give them additional 

526
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,200
context and then that recruiter 
or hiring manager. 

527
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,800
So that first call they're going
to decide. 

528
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:44,000
Are you going to come on site? 
Now, typically, after your 

529
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,300
resume that are going to confirm
some soft skills. 

530
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:48,800
Can you communicate? 
They might ask for Visa that 

531
00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,000
kind of stuff, but once you're 
on side, your resume is 

532
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:52,700
irrelevant. 
The reason I say that most 

533
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:56,200
people don't know this, because 
if this is the goal that if you 

534
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,900
apply to three different jobs, 
you should be sending three 

535
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:02,200
different resumes because every 
one of them you should tweak A 

536
00:23:02,208 --> 00:23:03,600
little bit for that job. 
Now. 

537
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,500
Most people don't do this 
because they're thinking oh, why

538
00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:08,200
should I do that? 
Well, look, if you're just 

539
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,000
shooting with a shotgun and 
you're hoping things will and 

540
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,300
don't do it and you will see a 
lot slower response. 

541
00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,000
If your goal is to get that 
call, you should optimize for 

542
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,600
that and you should tweak your 
resume a little bit for each of 

543
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:19,500
them. 
You should read the job 

544
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,600
description and reflect their 
and this is why. 

545
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,900
But the first third of the book 
is not about the resume. 

546
00:23:23,900 --> 00:23:26,700
It's about telling you how the 
hiring process works is. 

547
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:27,900
Here's how the hiring process 
works. 

548
00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:30,500
I'm a hiring manager and I have 
what we call an opening or 

549
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:32,100
acquisition. 
I want to hire. 

550
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:33,700
And let's see. 
What happened. 

551
00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,400
Is someone quit on my team. 
This person was an engine with 

552
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,900
two years of experience and I 
need to replace that person and 

553
00:23:38,900 --> 00:23:41,400
I need to do that now because I 
have a problem I need to do as 

554
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:43,400
soon as possible. 
So I read the job description. 

555
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,100
I right in there. 
What matters to me. 

556
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:47,700
I might ride that I need two 
years of experience because 

557
00:23:47,700 --> 00:23:50,100
maybe this person was there. 
I need to experience with these 

558
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:52,000
on these framework. 
I need someone with this and 

559
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:53,800
that and it's all in the job 
description. 

560
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:55,900
And I'm a busy person. 
We're going to get a bunch of 

561
00:23:55,908 --> 00:23:58,600
responses and I'm going to go 
through it and what I'm scanning

562
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,400
those resumes, I'm gonna ask, 
can this person do the job? 

563
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,400
That's what I've been. 
Interested, if I see evidence 

564
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:04,900
there that they can do the job, 
great. 

565
00:24:04,900 --> 00:24:07,700
If I don't see evidence, I will 
assume they cannot do the job. 

566
00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:09,300
I just don't have time to dig 
into it. 

567
00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:10,900
You need to sell yourself in a 
resume. 

568
00:24:10,900 --> 00:24:13,700
It's a bit of a sales pitch. 
I will Echo this because I talk 

569
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:16,200
with a recruiter who works at a 
recruiting agency. 

570
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,900
So what they do is developers 
apply to them and they send 

571
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:22,200
their resumes on to clients for 
client jobs, and she told me she

572
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,800
seen about twenty thousand 
resumes in the past 20 years 

573
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,500
easily. 
She's done six thousand 

574
00:24:26,500 --> 00:24:29,700
interviews herself with 
developers and she told me this 

575
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:32,000
she said she still believe this 
is a sales. 

576
00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:34,300
Writing a resume, she rewrites 
their resume. 

577
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:36,700
So a lot of times when these 
recruiting agencies, ask for a 

578
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:39,500
resume and a document format or 
docx is because they were right.

579
00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:41,200
It later to try to sell you 
better. 

580
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:42,800
They're not doing it out of that
content. 

581
00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:45,000
And you told me there is no 
resume that you cannot work 

582
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,800
with, but multiple offers are 
not good at selling themselves 

583
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:49,800
and for better or worse. 
I don't like that. 

584
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:51,800
The system works like this, but 
this is how it works. 

585
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,600
It is a bit of a sales pitch and
it's for that specific position.

586
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:56,600
So, that's the key. 
Takeaway of the book and all the

587
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,700
examples are just showing on how
to talk about your impact, how 

588
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:01,200
to reflect on the job 
description? 

589
00:25:01,300 --> 00:25:03,600
If a job is talking, About 
distributed systems or if 

590
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,500
another job is talking about 
building web products. 

591
00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:08,900
You probably mirror a little bit
of language to make it clear 

592
00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:10,900
that you are capable of doing 
this job. 

593
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:14,000
So that's the name, take away. 
So, yeah, for those listeners 

594
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:17,700
out there, who wants to improve 
your resume, your tech resume, 

595
00:25:17,700 --> 00:25:20,300
please go and find the books. 
I'll put it in the mentions as 

596
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:23,000
well. 
So moving onto your career, you 

597
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:26,200
last held the position at Uber 
as an engineering manager. 

598
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:29,000
Maybe he can tell us a little 
bit about what are the major 

599
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,500
challenges that you work on when
you were there. 

600
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:34,100
I know. 
Is a major big company is a tech

601
00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:37,200
unicorn, one of the biggest 
disruptors during that time. 

602
00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:39,300
So what was it like for you in 
Uber? 

603
00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:42,100
I know, when we say the word, 
boober different people, think 

604
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:43,700
different things. 
Some people think, oh, what a 

605
00:25:43,708 --> 00:25:45,600
terrible company. 
I remember some really bad news 

606
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,300
from 2017 when I joined Ubers 
pressed was fantastic. 

607
00:25:49,300 --> 00:25:53,100
So they just raised 13 or 10 
billion or so from the Saudis 

608
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:55,100
and the evaluation went to 
seventy two billion. 

609
00:25:55,100 --> 00:25:57,700
It was I think a new record it 
was the fastest growing company 

610
00:25:57,700 --> 00:25:59,600
in history and everything about.
It seemed great. 

611
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,000
There were talks about how Ubers
do thousands my purse. 

612
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:04,100
Services and everyone's sitting 
back and off. 

613
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,200
It sounded like amazing company.
It sounded like the next 

614
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,300
Facebook or Google and one of 
the first challenges I join is 

615
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:11,400
when you go inside a company 
like this, a lot of things 

616
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,700
inside are not as pretty as they
seem from the outside. 

617
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:16,200
A lot of things are broken. 
There's outages happening on 

618
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,400
calls that are terrible. 
We have meetings and Amsterdam 

619
00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:20,400
at 11 p.m. 
Or midnight. 

620
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:22,700
It was a little bit sobering and
by the way, this is not just a 

621
00:26:22,708 --> 00:26:24,600
case for Uber. 
I saw this for all the other 

622
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,300
companies. 
So if you think of a company 

623
00:26:26,300 --> 00:26:29,400
that seems really good like it 
might be snowflake or slack or 

624
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,400
Zoom. 
If you join that company you 

625
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:33,800
would see that. 
Things are not as amazing as you

626
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,000
think because they're young 
companies and that's normal. 

627
00:26:36,100 --> 00:26:37,700
But one of the biggest 
challenges is what I joined 

628
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:40,900
were, is we have so much stuff 
to do and we had so few people. 

629
00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:43,300
So we had all these projects 
that were each of them were 

630
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,800
estimated to have an impact of, 
let's say, 10 million, 20 

631
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,400
million, 30 million, on my team.
For example, we have five 

632
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,100
people. 
We were doing so many things. 

633
00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:52,200
At the same time. 
Everyone was working on a bunch 

634
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:53,900
of stuff. 
We had this cultural value of 

635
00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:56,500
always be hustling and we were, 
but it was a little bit too 

636
00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:58,200
much. 
So the first challenge was, how 

637
00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:01,100
to say no to things because in 
an environment, in any hyper 

638
00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,600
growth environment, Everyone 
will tell you can you do this? 

639
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,000
Can you do that? 
This is huge. 

640
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,300
That's even bigger. 
So I had to say learn to say no 

641
00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:11,100
and had to educate people and 
make sure that we focused on the

642
00:27:11,108 --> 00:27:13,600
right things and we consistently
shipped the most important 

643
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,900
things and we actually finish 
the work that just left it 

644
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,700
halfway at that time. 
I think we both like what you 

645
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,000
mentioned is growing very fast. 
I'm not sure what's the latest 

646
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,300
system architecture of uber but 
I certainly will get bigger and 

647
00:27:25,300 --> 00:27:27,800
especially they are in multiple 
different countries. 

648
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,900
So, how can you successfully 
manage? 

649
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,700
Engineering team. 
There is there any Friends, in 

650
00:27:32,700 --> 00:27:35,400
terms of compared to other 
traditional companies, there any

651
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,300
difference in how you manage 
such a team for such a growing? 

652
00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:40,900
Hyperscale company? 
Well, I was a manager at 

653
00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:44,200
Skyscanner, a new burst of both 
were were sort of so I don't 

654
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,100
have as much to compare as a 
manager. 

655
00:27:46,100 --> 00:27:48,400
I can't say what I've seen from 
the other side. 

656
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:51,600
I personally think it's actually
easier to manage teams at a high

657
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,000
growth companies because there's
growth people have 

658
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,000
opportunities. 
People are engaged. 

659
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,600
You don't need to worry about 
those things. 

660
00:27:57,600 --> 00:27:59,900
What I actually find, 
personally, a more difficult 

661
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:02,600
environment to work in is 
companies that are not growing. 

662
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,400
So I remember towards the end of
my tenure at Skype, it became 

663
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,800
more of Microsoft and we stopped
growing in London. 

664
00:28:07,900 --> 00:28:10,300
In fact, we start to not get 
back feels, which is a little 

665
00:28:10,300 --> 00:28:12,200
bit of a sign that things are 
not going the right way. 

666
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:13,700
That's when I left and two years
later. 

667
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,200
They closed down the London 
office in an environment like 

668
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:17,800
that. 
It is hard to manage when people

669
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,600
want to grow, they want to get 
us to the next level. 

670
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,300
There might not be an opening in
a stagnating environment. 

671
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:24,000
And that's where you do have 
good people. 

672
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,100
Leave if someone wants to move, 
let's say into senior role, 

673
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:28,800
there might not be budget or 
scope. 

674
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,400
So I find it really easy to 
manage in this environment. 

675
00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:34,000
The challenge. 
Is providing Focus, helping the 

676
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,100
team succeed. 
Hiring is a big challenge 

677
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,100
because you have to hire while 
keeping the team happy. 

678
00:28:39,300 --> 00:28:42,100
When I join some of my mentors 
have told me that one of the 

679
00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:44,700
most important thing is always 
to be hiring at a hyper growth 

680
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,100
organization after a few years. 
I disagree. 

681
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,700
I think the most important thing
as a manager is for you to 

682
00:28:49,700 --> 00:28:51,300
retain people which means keep 
them. 

683
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:54,000
Happy, keep them motivated. 
If my team was not really 

684
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,300
healthy. 
If I could choose between 

685
00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:56,800
spending time with them or 
hiring. 

686
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,300
I will choose spending time with
them. 

687
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,100
It's a lot more valuable to have
someone around for two, three, 

688
00:29:01,100 --> 00:29:02,800
four, five. 
Ears it when you hire. 

689
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,300
Someone takes about six months 
for them to get up to speed to 

690
00:29:05,300 --> 00:29:07,500
know how they're working on. 
It's always a bit of a risk. 

691
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,900
And we were, I was really lucky 
as well on my team until the 

692
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:13,000
layoffs in the end. 
No one left a company. 

693
00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:15,100
Some people did move teams, but 
everyone was there. 

694
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:17,100
Which was incredible for four 
years. 

695
00:29:17,100 --> 00:29:20,100
No one left on my team. 
Wow, that's pretty good 

696
00:29:20,100 --> 00:29:21,800
achievement. 
I would say, especially in 

697
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,200
Silicon Valley, people poaching,
each other totally agree. 

698
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,600
But this was also a master damn.
So it's a little bit different 

699
00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:28,700
environment. 
But still, it was really good. 

700
00:29:28,700 --> 00:29:31,500
Because when you spend this much
time with people, you get to 

701
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:33,600
really know. 
Them and in the end, the team 

702
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,500
jailed so much better than her 
Leon. 

703
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,200
I do see that around two years. 
You can have a really well gel 

704
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,200
team if you work with the same 
group of people, especially when

705
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,000
they can grow. 
So both myself and the team 

706
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,100
started with more Junior. 
I was on an experience that your

707
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:48,000
manager I had an interest or not
experience as well, but we grew 

708
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:50,300
together and we became this 
really strong team and a lot of 

709
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:53,000
people there, still a trooper. 
They're very strong Engineers. 

710
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,100
They're often Central go to 
people for a lot of projects and

711
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:57,700
they have really strong growth 
ahead of them. 

712
00:29:57,700 --> 00:30:00,000
May that be at this company or 
other companies. 

713
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:01,900
So what are some of your 
personal? 

714
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,000
Tips on how to grow a well, gel 
team. 

715
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,400
It sounds like you have a very 
good maybe culture process or 

716
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:10,100
boundaries practices. 
Maybe. 

717
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,600
Yeah, the biggest one. 
I get a lot of inspiration from 

718
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,300
this book. 
That a couple people my manager 

719
00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:16,100
recommended to me. 
It's called turn the ship 

720
00:30:16,100 --> 00:30:17,900
around. 
Apparently, it's based on a true

721
00:30:17,900 --> 00:30:20,700
story about a nuclear submarine 
and it's Captain. 

722
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:22,300
Apparently, the Navy to run a 
submarine. 

723
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:24,800
You have to go through this 
training school, where you learn

724
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,200
everything about that model to 
summary, and how it works in all

725
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:28,700
those things. 
So, this guy learned all of this

726
00:30:28,700 --> 00:30:31,300
and he was supposed to be given 
the best submarine in the Navy. 

727
00:30:31,300 --> 00:30:33,400
The best meaning. 
There's these drills were, 

728
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:36,000
whoever does this fastest, your 
best gets points and then you 

729
00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:37,800
can basically see was good 
discipline. 

730
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,700
And instead, he's given a 
different submarine that he 

731
00:30:39,700 --> 00:30:42,400
doesn't know, and it's the worst
submarine in the fleet. 

732
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:45,400
Meaning, they're always slow, 
they make mistakes and so on. 

733
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:47,000
So the guy has two problems. 
First. 

734
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:49,500
He has no idea how the submarine
works is very different. 

735
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:51,400
It's like if you're training for
one type of plane and you have 

736
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,200
to apply a different one and S. 
It is the worst crew and they 

737
00:30:54,208 --> 00:30:56,700
need to improve. 
So he's forced to give up 

738
00:30:56,700 --> 00:30:59,400
control and he changes the 
culture from the traditional 

739
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,900
top-down in the military where 
you tell people what to do. 

740
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,700
Do he asked people to tell them 
what they will be doing and to 

741
00:31:04,700 --> 00:31:07,900
tell them, here's what I intend 
to do and he changes the culture

742
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:09,700
to be Bottoms Up. 
And in the end, what I like 

743
00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,400
about, this is how he empowers, 
people who are used to being 

744
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:14,900
told what to do at least in 
Europe, and this might be true 

745
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:16,900
in Asia as well. 
There's a culture shock, when 

746
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:18,900
you go to Silicon Valley, tech 
company, a lot of them. 

747
00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:21,200
If you go in Silicon Valley to 
one of these tech companies as a

748
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,800
software engineer, you're going 
to be told. 

749
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:24,300
All right. 
So what are you going to do? 

750
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:26,700
And you're like what? 
What am I supposed to do know, 

751
00:31:26,700 --> 00:31:29,400
you need to figure that out. 
So it's a very different culture

752
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:31,800
in a lot of European companies, 
engineer's are a resource. 

753
00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:33,900
And you're told you get the 
juror ticket and that's it. 

754
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,200
I try to instill this culture 
from day one and my thinking is 

755
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,600
to empower people to be leaders.
So when we have projects I make 

756
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,300
it clear. 
I usually appoint a leader. 

757
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:44,500
Usually it starts with the most 
senior person in the scene for 

758
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:47,100
the first project. 
I said expectations on how I 

759
00:31:47,108 --> 00:31:49,400
expect them to run the project 
from an output point of view. 

760
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,400
I tried to not tell them what to
do, but I tell them, for 

761
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:53,200
example, I expect regular 
updates. 

762
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,900
I expect you to tell me when 
things are at risk, so we can 

763
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:58,500
talk about it. 
I expect you to engage the team.

764
00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:01,500
I expect you to make sure that 
everyone is happy, those kind of

765
00:32:01,508 --> 00:32:03,500
things. 
I have a framework that I put 

766
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,300
together and then later asked 
the team to do this in shorter 

767
00:32:06,300 --> 00:32:08,600
projects of project. 
One, two, three maximum of four 

768
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,100
months and then I asked someone 
else to leave the project and 

769
00:32:11,100 --> 00:32:13,600
eventually everyone gets to lead
a project including the most 

770
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:15,300
Junior person on the team. 
Now. 

771
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:17,300
A junior person will not be a 
great leader. 

772
00:32:17,300 --> 00:32:19,800
Let's be honest, they've never 
done this, but what I also do 

773
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,900
is, I then asked the senior 
person to support them. 

774
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,500
So, I tell them, your job is to 
make this person successful, 

775
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:26,700
this work really, well. 
It works well in the growing 

776
00:32:26,700 --> 00:32:28,800
environment where there's a lot 
of stuff to do it. 

777
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,100
Empowers people who are not just
going to be leaders on this 

778
00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:33,400
project with later. 
Feel free to speak up saying, I 

779
00:32:33,408 --> 00:32:35,900
think this is wrong or we should
do something different after a 

780
00:32:35,900 --> 00:32:37,100
while. 
People start to surprise me. 

781
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:39,200
They start to make better 
decisions and I would have done 

782
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,700
and you could scale yourself a 
lot more. 

783
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:44,000
So this also helped me as a team
grew, we had leads, some people 

784
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,300
became manager so later and even
when they weren't managers teams

785
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:50,200
could run themselves better. 
I think it's a fine balance, but

786
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,800
I like to give people trust. 
I like to give people trust with

787
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:54,600
additional support. 
I don't think it works. 

788
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,800
If you tell a junior person. 
Alright, you do whatever you 

789
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,200
want. 
Make it succeed. 

790
00:32:58,300 --> 00:33:00,000
That's not great. 
They're going to fail. 

791
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:02,300
It's also not great when you 
micromanage every A senior 

792
00:33:02,300 --> 00:33:02,900
person. 
All right. 

793
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:04,400
What did you do this? 
Why don't you do that? 

794
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,800
So despite enough fine line. 
I feel like the luckiest off to 

795
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,100
find it with you breath least 
and I have a post. 

796
00:33:09,100 --> 00:33:12,200
We can link it on the show notes
where I describe what work and I

797
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,100
shared this document that I put 
together of expectations. 

798
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:17,200
I would advise to don't copy 
anything that you see. 

799
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:18,800
But you can think about in your 
team. 

800
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:20,700
Can you try to instill something
like this. 

801
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:23,000
What I do know for sure. 
And this is my name. 

802
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,000
Philosophy. 
A motivated engineer who's 

803
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,600
engaged and who feel that? 
They have a real say. 

804
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:29,300
They're going to do twice or 
three times. 

805
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:30,700
The amount of work. 
They're going to do better 

806
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:32,700
decisions and they'll do Martyr 
work. 

807
00:33:32,900 --> 00:33:34,200
So that's what you should aim 
for. 

808
00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,000
So I want to go back to the 
point that you make test. 

809
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:39,600
Now, comparing European and 
Asian companies, versus the 

810
00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:42,500
Silicon Valley companies. 
I saw your blog posts related to

811
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:45,400
this, what Silicon Valley 
companies gets right. 

812
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:46,900
When dealing with software 
Engineers. 

813
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:48,200
Maybe can you share a little 
bit? 

814
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,500
What are those things that 
Silicon Valley does better? 

815
00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:52,500
In terms of treating the 
software developers? 

816
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:54,800
Some people might disagree. 
I talk with people who work in 

817
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,000
Silicon Valley in there, so that
their company doesn't work like 

818
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,600
this, but in general, I find a 
big differentiation. 

819
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,800
The biggest one is how companies
look at theirs. 

820
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:05,200
Software Engineers are software 
Engineers, just workers who are 

821
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:08,400
told, are they just resources? 
Are they resources that we are 

822
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:11,199
using to get a job done? 
Well, tell them what to do and 

823
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:12,500
they'll do it. 
And we're going to make the 

824
00:34:12,507 --> 00:34:14,500
decisions because we know the 
business and we do all these 

825
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:17,100
things or are they actually the 
people who are close to the 

826
00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,900
problems and we can utilize them
to solve problems and we can 

827
00:34:19,900 --> 00:34:21,800
Empower them to make better 
decisions. 

828
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:23,800
And boober has been a fantastic 
example. 

829
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,900
On this, one of the cultural 
values Uber was be an owner, not

830
00:34:26,900 --> 00:34:29,400
a renter, which meant if you see
a problem solve it. 

831
00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:32,800
When I joined, Uber about a few 
months in, We have the session 

832
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,300
where one of the teams who was 
doing cash payments, all the 

833
00:34:35,300 --> 00:34:37,199
engineers called up drivers and 
ask them. 

834
00:34:37,199 --> 00:34:40,300
Hey, how are using our product? 
What do you like about cash? 

835
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,699
What you don't like about cash. 
The engineers were calling them 

836
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:45,400
up and the driver is saying. 
I hate this about it or I and 

837
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,500
the Angela like, whoa, whoa, 
whoa, so they talk with 

838
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:49,100
customers. 
So we had Engineers talk with 

839
00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:51,900
customers every now and then we 
went to customer support centers

840
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:55,000
to see what feedback people were
giving for the products. 

841
00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:56,699
We were building which in my 
case was payments. 

842
00:34:56,699 --> 00:34:58,900
We did this. 
And afterward, we had off sites 

843
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,700
where engineers and other people
we brainstormed about what we 

844
00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:04,000
should. 
Fix my team came up with a fix, 

845
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:05,700
which was a really annoying 
thing. 

846
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,000
We own the payments experience. 
And when something went wrong, 

847
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:09,100
we just showed a generic 
message. 

848
00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:11,200
Oops, something went wrong 
because it was easy to do. 

849
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,100
We knew this was not for the 
good and some people from the 

850
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:14,800
business World saying, it could 
be nice to fix it. 

851
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,800
But we never did too much in the
end an engineer and someone else

852
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,400
got together and said, let's 
just fix it and they propose, we

853
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:21,700
fix it. 
They did an estimate. 

854
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:23,700
They work for some data science 
is the injury actually, work 

855
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:25,400
with the data scientist. 
We shipped it. 

856
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,500
We estimated that maybe it'll 
bring in a million or $2 per 

857
00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:31,100
year, it brought in 10 times 
that much and this was all from 

858
00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:33,400
an engineer. 
Having seen this a ruber 

859
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,600
software Engineers, if you're 
smart, you can expose them to 

860
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,900
customers and if you're even 
smarter, you give them some 

861
00:35:37,900 --> 00:35:40,400
autonomy saying, hey, don't come
up with the whole business 

862
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,600
strategy here. 
But do you see some improvements

863
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,700
that you could do? 
That could make things faster. 

864
00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:46,600
Maybe development speed will be 
faster. 

865
00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:48,800
Maybe you could fix some bugs 
and people are a lot more 

866
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,200
engaged. 
The results of this is, by the 

867
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,200
way, that these injuries become 
a lot more valuable. 

868
00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:54,200
They're no longer just code 
monkeys. 

869
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:57,000
They're actually bringing in a 
lot of business value, which 

870
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:58,400
also makes the case for 
promotion. 

871
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,200
A lot of these Engineers from 
the likes of uber. 

872
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,300
And other companies. 
They will probably go go on 

873
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:04,700
later in their career and they 
might co-found companies because

874
00:36:04,700 --> 00:36:07,100
they understand the business. 
And I had a big renovation. 

875
00:36:07,100 --> 00:36:09,900
One engineer came over from a 
company that was consultancy and

876
00:36:09,900 --> 00:36:12,600
they always gave him Jurassic. 
It's he was supposed to work on 

877
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,400
that. 
If you ask questions, it wasn't 

878
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,800
very welcome because the 
higher-ups decided what to do. 

879
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:19,600
This person was confused on how 
this whole system work and he 

880
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,400
was really struggling, but I was
coaching him and I gave him 

881
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:25,200
examples on how he should figure
out what to do, how we should 

882
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,900
talk with the product managers, 
this kind of thing in the end. 

883
00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:30,400
After about three months. 
He told me, you know what, I 

884
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:32,800
really like working like this. 
I don't want to go back to the 

885
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,000
old way. 
So even when this person left to

886
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,200
birth, a didn't goes back to the
old company, the who would have 

887
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,600
welcomed them back. 
You actually want to do 

888
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,800
something different smaller 
companies have more autonomy and

889
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,700
have a say, in how things are 
being built. 

890
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:44,200
But, yeah, I can totally 
understand. 

891
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,600
I mean, for me as well as a 
software engineer, we don't like

892
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,700
to be told or here's what you 
need to do, including even like 

893
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:52,700
some of the lower level details 
putting like algorithms or what 

894
00:36:52,700 --> 00:36:54,100
code to write and things like 
that. 

895
00:36:54,100 --> 00:36:57,400
So obviously we aspire to be 
more autonomous and more 

896
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:59,000
creative as well. 
Sometimes. 

897
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,700
I do understand as well, like 
getting exposed to the problem. 

898
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:04,600
Yes, to the customers. 
Can also intrigued us to find a 

899
00:37:04,607 --> 00:37:07,400
better solution, including some 
of the Minor Details In the 

900
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,100
code. 
Maybe the flow can be better, 

901
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:11,900
the you I can be better as well.
So yeah, I think that's a very 

902
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:14,500
good advice from you one. 
Major question that I have 

903
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,700
looking at all, you're growing 
and challenges and success at 

904
00:37:17,700 --> 00:37:19,600
Uber. 
Why did you quit recently 

905
00:37:19,900 --> 00:37:21,900
evolved? 
Because it's also a good time. 

906
00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:24,100
I was a trooper for four years 
and before that for about eight 

907
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:25,500
years. 
I was out these high-growth 

908
00:37:25,500 --> 00:37:27,700
companies, which were maybe not 
remember, but there were pretty 

909
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:29,900
similar and it seemed when I 
joined Uber. 

910
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:32,500
I came here to take a bath as 
well to see if Thing with grow 

911
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:35,000
bigger and it did. 
I also set myself a lot after 

912
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,600
about four years. 
I'll take a look at and see 

913
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:38,200
where I am. 
And what I'd like to do next. 

914
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,700
Is I did I realize that angst to
having worked in Uber. 

915
00:37:40,700 --> 00:37:43,700
I've built up a bigger risk, 
appetite the nice thing about 

916
00:37:43,700 --> 00:37:46,300
working at a company like Uber 
or any startup, when you join a 

917
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:48,600
start-up when you join, you 
don't really know what it's like

918
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,400
and if you could ever do it, but
by working at Uber I saw that 

919
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,700
they're not as mystical. 
So starting a company. 

920
00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:55,200
Yes. 
It takes a lot of luck to do 

921
00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:57,200
something like uber, but 
starting from something from 

922
00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:59,700
scratch, when you've seen it, 
done a few times, you get a lot 

923
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:01,700
more confidence and I've had 
other people lived, Uber. 

924
00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:03,700
She told me the same thing. 
They said, you know, I joined 

925
00:38:03,700 --> 00:38:05,800
you were really early on. 
I never thought I would do a 

926
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,300
start-up, but I saw how we were 
worked and I think I can do 

927
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:10,000
this. 
So, I'm at this stage as well, 

928
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,900
where I think I am ready to take
a risk in my career to start 

929
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:14,600
something and that's a lot more 
risky. 

930
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:17,200
There's always a risk reward. 
So you take high risk, you might

931
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,200
get zero or award, but I'm also 
missing that experience from my 

932
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,400
career of doing something from 
very small. 

933
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:24,900
I have them the bigger ones and 
I'd like to do that right now. 

934
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:27,300
That's how I feel. 
And in the meantime when I quit 

935
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:28,800
I didn't just quit for like, 
okay. 

936
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:30,500
I'm going to try to figure out 
exactly what I'm doing. 

937
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,400
I was really itching. 
Also finished my book about 

938
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:35,600
growing as a software engineer, 
which is a lot of the things 

939
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:37,700
that I've seen them. 
Maybe it'll be helpful for other

940
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:39,400
people. 
I knew that if I would stay with

941
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:42,100
Weber, it will take a lot longer
to finish these two things just 

942
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:44,600
seem to combine pretty well. 
And the third thing was Corona, 

943
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:47,000
which again, I think whenever 
there's a challenge, you can 

944
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,300
look at it and you can be really
scared of it or unhappy with it,

945
00:38:50,300 --> 00:38:51,700
or you can look at the 
opportunity. 

946
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,200
Corona is a big hit for the 
economy. 

947
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,700
Jobs are going to be lost, the 
economy will suffer. 

948
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,900
It's a crisis. 
It's similar to the 2008 

949
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,700
financial crisis. 
Probably bigger or.com, boom or 

950
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,000
We even bigger, but during a 
crisis, you also have an 

951
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,500
opportunity during crisis, is 
probably the best time to start 

952
00:39:06,500 --> 00:39:08,400
something small. 
Something you and your company. 

953
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,700
And in certain cases. 
It is easier to hire capital is 

954
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:14,200
still very strong everywhere. 
So, there have been a really 

955
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,100
great Returns on when you see 
the current IPOs and those High 

956
00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:20,000
returns will want to go back and
they will fund the next wave of 

957
00:39:20,000 --> 00:39:22,400
companies. 
So also see the opportunity and 

958
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,300
then finally, honesty is just a 
change of pace. 

959
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,900
I have been doing similar things
for a while now that I've 

960
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:28,600
reflected, and I just want to 
take a risk. 

961
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,600
I want to do something different
and see how I like it. 

962
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:31,700
I don't know what the future 
holds. 

963
00:39:31,900 --> 00:39:34,900
Actually, there's their scenario
lower likelihood, but I might go

964
00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:37,300
back to zoom what I've done 
before, but there's a higher 

965
00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:39,400
scenario that I'll just do 
something small. 

966
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:40,900
And the last thing is, I was 
curious. 

967
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,200
What happens when I leave you 
bird without a plan because I 

968
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:45,300
think it opens up a lot of 
interesting opportunities and 

969
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,100
conversations. 
I've already talked with 

970
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,800
founders with other people who 
are reaching out to me because 

971
00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,000
they know that I'm here. 
I might be advising a few 

972
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,400
companies here and there. 
Again, it is very unusual. 

973
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:57,000
Most people go from company to 
company or they leave a company 

974
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,600
immediately to start a new one. 
So I'm doing something different

975
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,000
and we'll see if it pays off for
an option. 

976
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:03,100
Let's move. 
Move on to the other things that

977
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:06,500
you do which is writing a Blog. 
I saw you wrote a lot of blog 

978
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:07,300
posts. 
I don't know. 

979
00:40:07,300 --> 00:40:09,900
When did you start? 
Maybe you can remember, I've 

980
00:40:09,900 --> 00:40:12,600
been blogging for more than 10 
years, but for the first many 

981
00:40:12,600 --> 00:40:14,500
years it was an interesting 
blog. 

982
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:16,200
I have to clean it up. 
It's my first name. 

983
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,700
Last name.com, as a WordPress 
site is full of spam. 

984
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:20,900
I need to clean it up. 
I just wrote about stuff every 

985
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,400
now and then I started the 
pragmatic engineering blog 

986
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,900
though about 3 years ago. 
And what prompted me is that I 

987
00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:29,100
set myself a challenge. 
I got really inspired by reading

988
00:40:29,100 --> 00:40:31,700
Jeff, Atwoods advice to start a 
blog just blog. 

989
00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:34,400
Later, so I set myself a 
challenge to blog once a week 

990
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:37,800
for two months and I wrote about
six or seven articles that were 

991
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,700
about software engineering. 
And I left it. 

992
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:42,500
I just gave up and I forgot 
about it for a few months and 

993
00:40:42,500 --> 00:40:44,200
then about three or four months 
later. 

994
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:46,700
One of the Articles was on The 
Hacker News from page, and I got

995
00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:49,400
a huge amount of traffic. 
I had a few bunch of readers, a 

996
00:40:49,408 --> 00:40:51,900
huge amount of comments. 
People disagreed with me and 

997
00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:53,400
agree with me and I was like, 
huh? 

998
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:55,200
That's interesting. 
People find my blog, 

999
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,000
interesting. 
I didn't know that because it 

1000
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,400
before that I didn't get any 
sort of traffic and I start to 

1001
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:01,700
go back and add to articles 
every now and then. 

1002
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,600
On my writing style changed in 
the time, so it took a while to 

1003
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,900
figure out what my style is, but
I enjoy sharing what I learned. 

1004
00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:10,300
And it's a catch-22 when you 
write good stuff after a while 

1005
00:41:10,300 --> 00:41:12,900
people discovered, but it takes 
time and then more people 

1006
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:15,500
discover it and so on. 
I just like that people find it.

1007
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:17,100
Interesting. 
I've had people connect with me 

1008
00:41:17,100 --> 00:41:19,500
about it. 
I do find that blogging also 

1009
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:21,400
helps me understand things a bit
more. 

1010
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,300
So an example is an Uber. 
I learned a lot about 

1011
00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:25,100
distributed systems. 
I didn't know, too much before I

1012
00:41:25,100 --> 00:41:27,500
joined, but my team ended up 
owning a couple of them and we 

1013
00:41:27,500 --> 00:41:29,600
ended up building them. 
And even though I didn't push 

1014
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:31,700
code to those systems, but I 
read a lot of this. 

1015
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:35,000
Like I talked with bunch of 
Staff engineers and I realized, 

1016
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:36,000
you know, this distributed 
systems. 

1017
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,100
I think it's a bit over high for
it talks about, it's not as 

1018
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:40,000
complicated. 
So I just summarize what I think

1019
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,300
the basics are this block became
really popular as translated 

1020
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:46,100
into multiple languages and what
it made me realize, I think a 

1021
00:41:46,107 --> 00:41:48,900
lot of people know this stuff. 
They just don't write it down or

1022
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:50,500
they don't write it down in a 
simple form. 

1023
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,000
So for me, blogging has also 
helped with my writing, my early

1024
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,300
blogs are a lot more verbose. 
They don't get to the point. 

1025
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,400
I'm a better writer because I 
block and because I get feedback

1026
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,600
and then I block some more. 
I do recommend writing as a way 

1027
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:04,600
and it doesn't have to be a 
Blog. 

1028
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,900
It can be something else but 
writing as a way to grow as a 

1029
00:42:06,908 --> 00:42:09,800
professional. 
In fact, I do burr, not being a 

1030
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,500
good writer is starting to 
become a block, or for people to

1031
00:42:12,500 --> 00:42:15,000
go beyond the senior level 
because in a distributor 

1032
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:17,900
organization, you need to 
express your thoughts. 

1033
00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:19,700
You need to write up your 
proposals. 

1034
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:22,900
You need to write emails saying,
hey, here's what I'm thinking of

1035
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:24,600
doing. 
What do you think you need to 

1036
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,100
convince people over written 
forms, and this will be true for

1037
00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:30,000
a lot of other companies. 
I feel one of the big changes in

1038
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,700
software engineering in the past
decade. 

1039
00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:34,400
Writing is becoming more 
important than communication is,

1040
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:36,900
becoming more important for 
software Engineers is going to 

1041
00:42:36,900 --> 00:42:39,500
be based on expectation for 
staff and principal Engineers to

1042
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:42,100
be decent writers. 
The same way as a manager should

1043
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:45,300
be a good communicator. 
For example, I was intrigued by 

1044
00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:47,200
your blog about this distributed
system. 

1045
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:49,800
Maybe you can share in short. 
What are some of the things that

1046
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,400
you think are over hype about 
this distributed system. 

1047
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,500
I was pretty intimidated when I 
first started to look at 

1048
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,000
distributed systems because 
there's a lot of Concepts being 

1049
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,900
thrown around, like, 
consistency, strong consistency 

1050
00:43:00,900 --> 00:43:04,700
eventual, because this It's in C
or like durability idempotency 

1051
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:08,200
and they sound like Latin words 
and I didn't know what they 

1052
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:10,100
meant. 
I was in a meeting where we had 

1053
00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:12,700
a person from San Francisco, 
come over an engineer on the 

1054
00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:15,400
team and he was doing an 
overview of one of the payment 

1055
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,400
system that they built. 
And he was saying like, all 

1056
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:19,600
right now, because we made it 
this eventual consistent, we 

1057
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,800
made a decision because strong 
consistency was not a 

1058
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,100
requirement and this works. 
Well enough, although we have 

1059
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:26,700
some trade-offs and I as I 
called on just pause for a 

1060
00:43:26,700 --> 00:43:28,200
second. 
Can anyone put up their hands? 

1061
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,000
Who knows what? 
And understands, what strong and

1062
00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,300
weak consistency is and no one. 
Their hands. 

1063
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:34,500
And I was like, okay. 
So do you mind explaining to us 

1064
00:43:34,500 --> 00:43:36,100
what you meant for that? 
And he explained it. 

1065
00:43:36,100 --> 00:43:38,700
But the crazy thing was, I think
there's a bit of an acronym 

1066
00:43:38,700 --> 00:43:42,000
overload, sometimes which makes 
sense, but it blocks people out 

1067
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,700
of there and it's not that 
complicated in this block was I 

1068
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,400
just wrote down what they mean. 
For example, idempotency is a 

1069
00:43:47,408 --> 00:43:50,100
very important Concept in any 
distributed system. 

1070
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:52,800
It means that you have an API 
that behaves the same way 

1071
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:54,500
whenever you do it. 
Let's say in Boca. 

1072
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:57,300
So you do a get to an end point 
and it always returns the same 

1073
00:43:57,300 --> 00:43:58,700
thing. 
And this can be important for 

1074
00:43:58,700 --> 00:44:01,200
let's say payments, an input 
will be item potent when you try

1075
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:04,200
to Charge a payment and you get 
a response that they either says

1076
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:07,300
yes, or it says no. 
And if you charge it the second 

1077
00:44:07,300 --> 00:44:09,900
time after its successful, it 
will return, you know, and you 

1078
00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:11,800
can do it multiple times and 
you'll still get the same 

1079
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:13,800
response. 
There's only a handful of these 

1080
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,200
Concepts and once you know these
things you can confidently, 

1081
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,600
speak distributed systems. 
And again, there's some use 

1082
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,800
cases where these are importance
and the use cases where they're 

1083
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,400
not same thing with scaling, 
everyone talks about. 

1084
00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:25,800
Oh, we need to make a scalable 
well, but scaling there's 

1085
00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:28,700
horizontal scaling which is you 
can just add more boxes, 

1086
00:44:28,700 --> 00:44:31,600
basically, or vertical scaling 
where you can have a bigger box.

1087
00:44:31,900 --> 00:44:34,100
I try to not use by the way, 
these things while I talk with 

1088
00:44:34,100 --> 00:44:36,500
people like consistency or 
idempotency while you do it, 

1089
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:39,100
when you know that it's take 
those same language, but I think

1090
00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:41,900
it's easier to explain and more 
clear if you can get people 

1091
00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:44,100
including a conversation. 
So that's what the blog post is 

1092
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:45,500
about. 
It seems has resonated with 

1093
00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:49,000
people and I hope some of these 
special words will be broken 

1094
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,300
down or it'll be either part of 
the vocabulary or it's just more

1095
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:54,800
accessible to everyone. 
So for those of you who are 

1096
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,200
still having a lot of doubts, 
about what this should be the 

1097
00:44:57,200 --> 00:44:59,900
system is do check it out. 
So I'm just a little bit curious

1098
00:44:59,900 --> 00:45:01,600
as well which post that you have
on. 

1099
00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:05,200
On Hacker News, the one that 
made you popular allows the very

1100
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:06,900
early post. 
That's one of the first one 

1101
00:45:06,900 --> 00:45:09,100
that's all listed. 
It's called a comment is 

1102
00:45:09,100 --> 00:45:12,900
invitation for a refactor. 
So I wrote about, I had the 

1103
00:45:12,908 --> 00:45:15,600
strong conviction which change 
has sense, but I was pretty 

1104
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,000
certain that. 
If you have comments in your 

1105
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,800
code, your code is doing 
something wrong. 

1106
00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:20,100
You should not have comments in 
your code. 

1107
00:45:20,100 --> 00:45:22,000
And I wrote a post about this 
since then. 

1108
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,100
I've actually I've softened up 
on that and I'm Hacker News. 

1109
00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:27,000
This created a really is 
polarized the bay. 

1110
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,700
Some people are saying, 
absolutely not and people were 

1111
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:31,500
saying hold on. 
These got a good point. 

1112
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,400
You can read that article. 
If you want to. 

1113
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:37,000
It's also good contrast of how 
my writing actually has changed.

1114
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:39,200
For example, that article is not
as well and it again. 

1115
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,600
I do think it is good to put 
out, people's opinion out there.

1116
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:44,000
Like, after you do some 
research. 

1117
00:45:44,100 --> 00:45:47,100
I really enjoy reading other 
people's opinion about things 

1118
00:45:47,100 --> 00:45:48,900
like how they see things and 
it's an opinion. 

1119
00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:51,100
So some people will disagree, 
some people are greedy, and 

1120
00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:53,500
that's great. 
So there's one more thing that I

1121
00:45:53,508 --> 00:45:55,400
saw from your blog, as well is 
about software. 

1122
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,400
Architecture, is overrated while
clear and simple design is 

1123
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,400
underrated. 
Maybe can you explain a little 

1124
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,100
bit about that? 
Yeah, so this was a really 

1125
00:46:03,300 --> 00:46:05,400
interesting when I was thinking 
a long time if I should write 

1126
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,100
about this or not, but in the 
end I decided and again, it was 

1127
00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:08,900
a poor. 
I respond. 

1128
00:46:08,900 --> 00:46:11,100
A lot of people agree. 
A lot of people didn't one thing

1129
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:14,100
that struck me as very 
interesting and good at Hoover 

1130
00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:16,700
is Uber, doesn't have a concept 
of software Architects, which is

1131
00:46:16,700 --> 00:46:19,600
a pretty classic definition. 
But we do have staff Engineers, 

1132
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:21,500
which you can think that they're
similar, but they're not the 

1133
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:23,400
same to stop injuries. 
Were building this payment 

1134
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,700
system that was processing more 
than 60 billion dollars a year. 

1135
00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:29,500
So it's a pretty big system and 
we have to take two existing 

1136
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,200
systems and turn them into one. 
So we had a rider and Driver 

1137
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,800
sight system that were separate 
the team that was building. 

1138
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,600
It wasn't a 7. 
There was a staff engineer who 

1139
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,200
was basically leading this 
effort, but the staff engineer, 

1140
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,700
they did come up with a bunch of
the design ideas, but they work 

1141
00:46:41,700 --> 00:46:44,100
with the team. 
And even the design document for

1142
00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:46,600
this system. 
I think it mentions consistency 

1143
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,400
ones, but it uses very simple 
language. 

1144
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,100
It uses boxes and arrows and it 
was heavily debated and you see,

1145
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:53,900
a lot of Junior Engineers. 
Also ask questions and also some

1146
00:46:53,900 --> 00:46:56,200
of the junior Engineers, real 
part of that document, this 

1147
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,100
staff engineer wrote the code. 
They're also on call. 

1148
00:46:59,100 --> 00:47:01,600
And actually every staff is 
your, I've interacted a trooper.

1149
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:03,300
Perimeter. 
So we don't do it but they write

1150
00:47:03,300 --> 00:47:05,100
code their own. 
The on-call rotation. 

1151
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:06,900
They're very approachable. 
They Mentor. 

1152
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:10,000
They do bring a lot of ideas and
they will often suggest 

1153
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,600
something but you feel 
comfortable challenging that. 

1154
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:15,200
Now I compare this with a lot of
the things that I'm seeing in 

1155
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:17,600
the I'm going to say more 
traditional South, a YouTuber 

1156
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,900
will build a system that works 
really well, we built it very 

1157
00:47:19,900 --> 00:47:22,700
quickly and I had a bit of an 
aha moment where I talked with 

1158
00:47:22,700 --> 00:47:25,000
the architect, at a large 
financial company who was the 

1159
00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,400
Chief Architect for assist. 
And he was amazed at how quickly

1160
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,300
we built our payment system. 
This person was working for 

1161
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:34,000
three years are The new system 
for this financial company. 

1162
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:36,300
A big financial company. 
I don't want to say that name of

1163
00:47:36,300 --> 00:47:37,700
it last time. 
So interesting. 

1164
00:47:37,700 --> 00:47:39,600
So how does this work? 
Well, I our objective. 

1165
00:47:39,700 --> 00:47:41,600
I have all these meetings and 
everyone signs that often. 

1166
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,200
They're going to build it. 
Oh, who is day? 

1167
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,000
Well, you know the developers. 
I'm like, okay. 

1168
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,600
So do you write code? 
I don't know. 

1169
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,200
I just give it to them like, you
know, I have a team. 

1170
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:50,000
It's going to 50 people that 
they just do it. 

1171
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:51,800
Okay. 
So, what if someone disagrees 

1172
00:47:51,800 --> 00:47:53,000
don't know, it's all falling 
out. 

1173
00:47:53,100 --> 00:47:54,800
We've had all this meeting. 
So it's a good plan. 

1174
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:56,800
But if they disagree, they can 
come to me. 

1175
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:58,700
I have an office hour like once 
a week. 

1176
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:01,400
I was thinking to myself in a 
lot of companies over time. 

1177
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,800
It is Evolution. 
But you're in this Castle, the 

1178
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,300
Arctic is on the top and you 
don't mingle with the peasants. 

1179
00:48:06,500 --> 00:48:08,300
I should find a 
counterproductive for two 

1180
00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:10,600
reasons. 
One is as an architect. 

1181
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:11,700
You just don't know what's going
on. 

1182
00:48:11,700 --> 00:48:13,800
You've done the planning. 
You have this perfect plan and 

1183
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,900
in the reality, and we were 
building a payment system. 

1184
00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:18,200
It was easy to build the payment
system, pretty easy. 

1185
00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:20,400
The difficult part was 
everything that followed 

1186
00:48:20,500 --> 00:48:23,100
operating, it miring things over
realizing. 

1187
00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:25,200
After we deployed it. 
We missed a bunch of edge cases 

1188
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,500
because that's how it is. 
And that we were the architect 

1189
00:48:27,500 --> 00:48:29,000
or the staff engineer was on the
ground. 

1190
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,900
They saw this firsthand and team
was there. 

1191
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:33,000
It wasn't just The staff 
Engineers effort, it was the 

1192
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,300
whole team's effort and the 
whole team salt, and the 

1193
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:38,000
progress was a lot faster. 
The other part that I don't like

1194
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:39,600
about this model is in this 
model. 

1195
00:48:39,600 --> 00:48:42,000
Your Junior Engineers are at the
bottom of the hire her again, 

1196
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:43,300
and they will have a chance of 
growing. 

1197
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:45,600
They need to understand this 
lingo, they need to spend 

1198
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:48,700
exteriors and eventually maybe 
they'll get a seat at a table at

1199
00:48:48,700 --> 00:48:51,000
boober and other places. 
The junior Engineers are at the 

1200
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,900
table. 
They learn from scratch and I 

1201
00:48:52,908 --> 00:48:55,800
saw some of these Engineers go 
from what I consider Junior to 

1202
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:59,100
senior in a lot shorter time 
because they were exposed. 

1203
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,200
So I think I will have a key for
this model. 

1204
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,000
Some Buddy's. 
It might make sense where you're

1205
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,300
very regulated and there's 
reason to do things and you'll 

1206
00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:08,100
not have people being there, but
I think it's a better model to 

1207
00:49:08,100 --> 00:49:10,000
keep our texture simple. 
Instead of aiming to have a 

1208
00:49:10,008 --> 00:49:12,500
great architecture, invest in 
your infrastructure, make it 

1209
00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:15,200
easy to deploy things, quickly, 
make it easy to migrate. 

1210
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,400
A lot of people make fun of 
lubbers, microservices the how 

1211
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,800
many they have but guess what is
super easy for us to iterate and

1212
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,200
to learn and to change. 
I think a lot of the old cell 

1213
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,100
architecture has been because 
changing it has been difficult. 

1214
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,300
But if you can make a change you
get easier, you can get a lot 

1215
00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:31,400
faster Pace than a lot faster 
iteration. 

1216
00:49:31,700 --> 00:49:33,400
So, how fast how frequent is it 
in? 

1217
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,700
Uber? 
Is it every month or so you 

1218
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:36,600
rewrite? 
Something? 

1219
00:49:36,900 --> 00:49:39,300
No rewriters a different one. 
You don't want to take rewrite 

1220
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:40,900
easily. 
I will say, like, my rule of 

1221
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:43,700
thumb is when you have 10x you. 
So shorter, next users might be 

1222
00:49:43,700 --> 00:49:45,700
traffic. 
It might be Revenue. 

1223
00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:47,800
It might be the number of use 
cases. 

1224
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:50,000
You probably have to rewrite. 
So we're actually didn't have 

1225
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:51,400
that many rights for the payment
system. 

1226
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,100
For example, there was a first 
version which was when we were 

1227
00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:55,800
started, and it was just very 
junkie. 

1228
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:58,000
Then there was followed by very 
quick second version, when it 

1229
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,300
turned out, this business is 
working and that system work for

1230
00:50:00,300 --> 00:50:03,000
a long time and that system. 
Was built in mind of riders and 

1231
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,900
drivers. 
When it was only that one thing.

1232
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:07,400
We only had one rewrite since 
which was when we realized it's 

1233
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,100
not just Riders and drivers. 
It's eats its Freight. 

1234
00:50:10,100 --> 00:50:12,700
It's all these things and then 
we have to write that system. 

1235
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:15,400
So there's two or three rights 
and probably like six or seven 

1236
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,300
years and I rewrite is always a 
big thing to do. 

1237
00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,000
That's a weird of the bigger 
system, but the service is there

1238
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:21,200
because you're so small 
Services. 

1239
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:23,700
They have changed all the time. 
They have been replaced a bunch 

1240
00:50:23,700 --> 00:50:25,700
of times. 
So the smaller parts, always 

1241
00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:28,700
change over time, of course, the
pace of change slows down as a 

1242
00:50:28,707 --> 00:50:30,800
business matures. 
So this is also typical of we 

1243
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,000
were, when you build We don't 
know how big it's going to be, 

1244
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,400
and it turned out of this really
big. 

1245
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:35,900
You'll have to change things 
more frequently. 

1246
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,200
So at the last count, homies 
micro services are then Uber and

1247
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,300
don't know the exact number. 
I think number might have gone 

1248
00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:43,200
down. 
I remember someone said, but I 

1249
00:50:43,207 --> 00:50:44,400
don't know, quote. 
Exactly. 

1250
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,600
It is Thousands, but it doesn't 
seem to grow as crazy as before.

1251
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:49,900
In fact, some of them are 
starting to consolidate like do 

1252
00:50:49,900 --> 00:50:52,400
get the point of like again when
it comes to architecture when 

1253
00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,000
you have a company that's 30 or 
40 or 50 years old and you know,

1254
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:56,500
your business and that's not 
changing. 

1255
00:50:56,500 --> 00:50:58,900
It probably makes sense to have 
schools Architects eventually 

1256
00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:02,200
and to protect and not make some
changes, but when You're growing

1257
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,200
fast. 
You want to make change easier 

1258
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,500
and eventually you will sold 
out. 

1259
00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:08,300
So like we were has written a 
blog post about this concept of 

1260
00:51:08,300 --> 00:51:11,100
domain-driven microservices and 
domain layering. 

1261
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,000
So there's more structure coming
in there. 

1262
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,100
But yeah early on just move 
fast. 

1263
00:51:15,100 --> 00:51:17,400
I also saw the lesson that if 
you're successful, if your 

1264
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,800
business is successful, you will
have the space and time or at 

1265
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,600
least the money to hire people 
and more people and pay off the 

1266
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:25,100
tag depth. 
And don't forget that, a lot of 

1267
00:51:25,107 --> 00:51:27,200
companies are in the business of
making money or having a 

1268
00:51:27,207 --> 00:51:28,500
business model. 
If you don't have that, it 

1269
00:51:28,508 --> 00:51:31,000
doesn't matter if you're a clean
architecture, that's a good 

1270
00:51:31,000 --> 00:51:32,900
point. 
That So get thanks so much for 

1271
00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:34,600
sharing as a custom. 
In this show. 

1272
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:36,900
I would ask the last question 
for all my guests. 

1273
00:51:37,100 --> 00:51:39,300
Can you share with us? 
Your three technical leadership.

1274
00:51:39,300 --> 00:51:42,300
Wisdom, especially coming from 
your experience and expertise 

1275
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:44,800
having been there. 
Working in big scale companies. 

1276
00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:47,100
Yeah. 
So the first one is just know 

1277
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:49,700
what's going on under the hood. 
I was really lucky at Hooper 

1278
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:51,700
that when I joined as an 
engineer, which I'm really 

1279
00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:54,200
grateful for, because I spent 
the first few months, just 

1280
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,600
writing code, and knowing 
exactly how things are working. 

1281
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,100
And later. 
This helped me a lot. 

1282
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:01,500
I saw managers struggle who came
in and who have to rely on their

1283
00:52:01,600 --> 00:52:03,800
A team from day one and they 
could never roll out their 

1284
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,000
Studio. 
Didn't have the time. 

1285
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,300
If you go into new position or 
if your transition, just make 

1286
00:52:07,300 --> 00:52:09,600
sure to take that time in the 
first one or two months to 

1287
00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:13,100
actually write code, understand 
the architecture talk with the 

1288
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:15,000
engineers. 
So that's the first one. 

1289
00:52:15,300 --> 00:52:18,300
The second one is give space for
people to fail. 

1290
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:21,100
If you want to grow people. 
If you're serious about growing 

1291
00:52:21,100 --> 00:52:24,300
your team, you can either tell 
them your stories and lessons or

1292
00:52:24,300 --> 00:52:26,500
mistakes, or you can just let 
them make those mistakes. 

1293
00:52:26,700 --> 00:52:29,700
People will grow the best way if
they make their own mistakes. 

1294
00:52:29,700 --> 00:52:33,500
And as a manager or as a lead, 
you Want to provide that safe 

1295
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:35,000
setting. 
I'll give you an example. 

1296
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:37,200
This is a small one. 
But one of the more experienced 

1297
00:52:37,200 --> 00:52:39,500
Engineers on my team was in 
charge of building a feature. 

1298
00:52:39,500 --> 00:52:42,100
There was a deadline and they 
decided to not write unit tests 

1299
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:44,600
for this. 
I'm very against us it can only 

1300
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,100
for bad things but all things 
being equal. 

1301
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:48,500
I was like, okay. 
Well, it's your decision, but 

1302
00:52:48,500 --> 00:52:51,200
you own the fall off as well. 
Sure enough in a few weeks or 

1303
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,500
months, something broke and that
unit test would have prevented 

1304
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:56,300
and it was an outage and I both 
held my back to my management. 

1305
00:52:56,300 --> 00:52:58,200
I was like, well, don't worry 
too much about this. 

1306
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:00,600
We've got it under control. 
But also this was great lesson 

1307
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:02,900
for that person if he came. 
To the conclusion saying, okay. 

1308
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:04,900
Well, it was not smart to skip 
it. 

1309
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:07,700
I learned my lesson, same thing.
Although this is a really unique

1310
00:53:07,700 --> 00:53:10,300
example, but another one is more
common with small projects or 

1311
00:53:10,300 --> 00:53:11,700
projects. 
I would often give a smaller 

1312
00:53:11,700 --> 00:53:13,700
piece of a project to a person 
and they would give me an 

1313
00:53:13,700 --> 00:53:15,100
estimate and I know they're 
wrong. 

1314
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:16,100
I know it's going to take 
longer. 

1315
00:53:16,100 --> 00:53:18,700
So externally, I'll communicate 
a lot more and I'll tell them. 

1316
00:53:18,700 --> 00:53:21,400
Alright, show me, and then 
they'll be late, and then I tell

1317
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:22,600
them. 
Okay, let's work together. 

1318
00:53:22,700 --> 00:53:24,700
Let's reflect on it and then 
they'll ship on time. 

1319
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:27,300
But also the team doesn't get in
trouble because I predicted this

1320
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:29,100
would happen, but I didn't step 
in. 

1321
00:53:29,300 --> 00:53:31,500
So try to not stick them because
they're not gonna learn as much.

1322
00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:35,000
The third one, which is maybe a 
high-growth company or maybe any

1323
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,900
company. 
If you can under-promise and 

1324
00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:39,500
over-deliver, that is a pretty 
darn good strategy, especially 

1325
00:53:39,500 --> 00:53:42,200
early on, it's always tempting. 
If you have a lot of things to 

1326
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,600
do to say yes, to a lot of 
things and then struggle to do 

1327
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,400
it. 
If you say yes, to fewer things 

1328
00:53:47,400 --> 00:53:50,000
and say no to things. 
But the things that you do say 

1329
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,600
yes, to you consistently get 
done and maybe sometimes you're 

1330
00:53:53,600 --> 00:53:56,300
able to do a bit more, you will 
build a reputation of being 

1331
00:53:56,300 --> 00:53:59,400
reliable at most companies. 
There are very few people who 

1332
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,500
are consistently can meet their 
deadlines. 

1333
00:54:01,700 --> 00:54:04,200
Very difficult. 
And the key is to say, no to 

1334
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,400
some other things. 
If you get a reputation, you'll 

1335
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,300
be on a fast track, your team 
will grow better. 

1336
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:10,100
You'll get more trust, you'll 
get more projects. 

1337
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:11,700
And, of course, you'll have to 
say no more. 

1338
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:15,600
So any tips, how to say, no 
better or just outright, you 

1339
00:54:15,607 --> 00:54:18,200
know, you need to build this up.
I think this will be unique to 

1340
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:20,200
everything. 
So my strategy of saying, no, I 

1341
00:54:20,207 --> 00:54:22,600
don't say no. 
I say, well, here's a trade-off,

1342
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,500
I can say yes, so I can do this,
but I need to stop this other 

1343
00:54:25,500 --> 00:54:27,900
project and wait, how much does 
that other projects in? 

1344
00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:30,100
So for her to tips? 
First of all, for every project 

1345
00:54:30,100 --> 00:54:31,900
you're doing every activity, 
have an Act. 

1346
00:54:31,900 --> 00:54:33,400
What is this? 
Bring to the table? 

1347
00:54:33,500 --> 00:54:34,900
And when you say no you don't 
say no. 

1348
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:37,100
You say okay. 
Well, we could stop project a. 

1349
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:39,600
That means we're not going to 
ship this impact of two million 

1350
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,100
dollars. 
Should we do that? 

1351
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:41,700
No. 
Okay. 

1352
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:42,900
What about stopping Project? 
B. 

1353
00:54:42,900 --> 00:54:46,300
That means that our developers 
will not be 50% faster and 

1354
00:54:46,300 --> 00:54:48,000
building stuff. 
And if you ask what was the 

1355
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,300
impact of your project? 
Oh a hundred thousand dollars. 

1356
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:52,000
Okay. 
Well, where do you think that 

1357
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:53,200
fist? 
You think we should stop the two

1358
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,200
million dollar project or making
our developers more productive 

1359
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,700
for any new work that comes in 
ask for the impact 50 or 80 

1360
00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:02,100
percent of the time people use 
you don't know the They're like,

1361
00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:03,400
we need to do this. 
Why? 

1362
00:55:03,400 --> 00:55:05,200
Well, because their customer 
says cool. 

1363
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:06,300
Do you have an impact 
estimation? 

1364
00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:08,300
How many customers? 
How much revenue? 

1365
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,100
How much turn we don't have 
that? 

1366
00:55:10,600 --> 00:55:12,000
Oh, geez. 
I wish we could do it. 

1367
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,200
But if you don't have the 
impact, if it's that important 

1368
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,700
come back with the impact 
sometimes said, yes, so for 

1369
00:55:16,700 --> 00:55:18,700
really important project, we 
have salt work. 

1370
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:21,200
It's a bit of a moral drop, but 
we've sometimes on the right 

1371
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:23,100
thing and you need to have your 
North Star. 

1372
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:25,000
Maybe this is what worked for 
me, but you need to have a 

1373
00:55:25,000 --> 00:55:26,700
consistent framework of, how do 
you say? 

1374
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:29,200
Yes, how do you say no? 
And how you enter up work? 

1375
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:32,200
And how do you tell the team 
impact is Always an easy one 

1376
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:33,500
because it's easy to sell the 
team. 

1377
00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:35,500
We're going to stop this work 
because we have a project that's

1378
00:55:35,500 --> 00:55:38,400
10x, more important and the 
company survival depends on its.

1379
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:39,700
Let's do it. 
We've had that a trooper. 

1380
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:42,300
Yeah. 
I think that's a very good tip. 

1381
00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:45,900
Impact is the common ground for 
people to discuss about and if 

1382
00:55:45,900 --> 00:55:48,900
everyone agrees, that's the kind
of impact that is measurable as 

1383
00:55:48,900 --> 00:55:51,100
well, and people can choose 
which one is more priority. 

1384
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,200
So, thank you so much for 
spending the time, Gail. 

1385
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,900
It's a pleasure learning from 
you hearing your stories. 

1386
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:57,700
So where can people find you 
online? 

1387
00:55:57,700 --> 00:55:59,500
Maybe, if let's say, they want 
to connect. 

1388
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,500
So, easiest way it is pragmatic 
engineered. 

1389
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:04,100
Cam. 
That's my website and it has my 

1390
00:56:04,100 --> 00:56:06,800
Twitter and Linkedin details. 
So feel free to connect on 

1391
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:09,700
Twitter or LinkedIn. 
I also have my contact details, 

1392
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:12,700
emails, Gehrig a at pragmatic 
engineer.com, bunch of different

1393
00:56:12,700 --> 00:56:15,100
communication channels. 
And then yeah, anything about 

1394
00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:17,000
resumes. 
I have the resume book which is 

1395
00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,700
free for anyone who is out of a 
job currently or might be out of

1396
00:56:19,700 --> 00:56:21,700
a job in the future. 
I'm writing another book. 

1397
00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:24,000
So there's more details on that 
on the blog. 

1398
00:56:24,100 --> 00:56:25,900
There's a newsletter. 
If you're interested is to try, 

1399
00:56:25,900 --> 00:56:28,200
I don't send it to often. 
So feel free to subscribe. 

1400
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:30,100
So, when can we expect the new 
book? 

1401
00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:31,500
I'm hoping it's going to be 
early next. 

1402
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,500
Here, I'd like to Target 
February and we'll see how that 

1403
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:35,900
goes. 
Because now, that I've written a

1404
00:56:35,908 --> 00:56:37,300
book. 
I know there's plenty of Hearts.

1405
00:56:37,300 --> 00:56:39,700
I'm in the content writing phase
and then there's the editing and

1406
00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:41,900
there's a production izing. 
But I'd like to now stretch it 

1407
00:56:41,900 --> 00:56:43,400
out beyond that. 
You know, this is the first time

1408
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:44,900
I'm saying, something like this 
on a podcast. 

1409
00:56:44,900 --> 00:56:46,800
So we'll see if this will stand 
the test of time. 

1410
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,000
Let's hope. 
So, I'll make sure that I'll 

1411
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:50,800
check it out as well when the 
time comes. 

1412
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:53,100
So thanks again. 
Yeah, it's very nice to speak 

1413
00:56:53,100 --> 00:56:55,900
with you and good luck with your
book and all the things that you

1414
00:56:55,900 --> 00:56:57,200
do in the future. 
Great. 

1415
00:56:57,200 --> 00:57:01,200
Thanks a lot Henry. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1416
00:57:01,200 --> 00:57:03,900
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1417
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,000
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1418
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,300
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1419
00:57:10,300 --> 00:57:12,500
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1420
00:57:12,500 --> 00:57:15,900
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1421
00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:19,300
review and feedback. 
It really really helps me a lot 

1422
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:21,800
in order to grow this podcast 
better. 

1423
00:57:22,300 --> 00:57:25,600
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1424
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,900
the episode page at technology. 
No, the death website. 

1425
00:57:29,100 --> 00:57:32,400
Including the full transcript 
interesting quotes, and links to

1426
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:35,300
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1427
00:57:35,800 --> 00:57:38,700
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1428
00:57:38,700 --> 00:57:42,500
list on technology nor the deaf 
to get notified for any future 

1429
00:57:42,500 --> 00:57:44,700
episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1430
00:57:44,700 --> 00:57:47,100
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1431
00:57:47,300 --> 00:57:47,900
Goodbye.