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There are 4 common obstacles 
that are stopping engineers in 

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progressing in their journey. 
The imposter syndrome, the 

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burnout, trouble dealing with 
other people and self marketing 

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struggles. 
And it's kind of the same 

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concept with the legacy mental 
goal that's hidden in your 

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brain. 
Your parents put stuff in there.

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The past experiences, your 
teachers, your friends, they 

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have put programming into your 
brain before you could look into

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what's there and do something 
about it. 

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We tend to ask engineers 
overvalue things that are hard 

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and assign more value to things 
that are difficult and hard and 

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undervalue things that can have 
a massive business impact that 

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are easy. 
When you're a lone wolf, you're 

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going to get to that senior 
engineer, tops. 

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But forget about being a staff 
engineer, Forget about being an 

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architect, forget about becoming
ACTO. 

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Because at the end of the day, 
as engineers, we work with other

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people, creating products for 
other people. 

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Hello everyone, welcome back to 
the new episode of The 

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Technician Podcast. 
Today is one of those episodes 

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that I like to cover because 
this is something about personal

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growth, you know, so normally we
cover things like technical 

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staff architecture, you know, 
technical leadership, but today 

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is something about more like a 
coaching yourself, how to grow 

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yourself to become a much better
software engineer both in your 

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personal life and also in your 
career. 

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I'm really excited to have Dagna
Bieda. 

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So she's an engineer turning to 
coach who is actually helping a 

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lot of software engineers to 
actually actualize themselves to

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become a better person and 
engineer all together. 

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So welcome to the show, Dagna. 
Thanks so much for having me, 

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Henry. 
I'm really excited to be here 

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today, right? 
Dagna, maybe before we go into 

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the whole tiers of our 
conversation, I'd like to invite

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you to probably introduce 
yourself a little bit, maybe 

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telling us any highlights or 
turning points that you think we

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all can learn from that. 
Yes, absolutely. 

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So like you mentioned, I'm an 
engineer turned career coach for

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engineers. 
And I like to say that I moved 

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from programming computers to 
reprogramming human minds 

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because that's what I do with my
clients right now. 

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And as I worked in an 
engineering in various different

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engineering positions, I 
realized that there are 4 common

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obstacles that are stopping 
engineers in progressing in 

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their journey. 
Some of those things I learned 

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because of my own experience, 
but some of them I noticed as I 

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was working with my coaching 
clients who are across different

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domains, working from small 
companies to big companies with 

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different levels of experience 
and different kinds of positions

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from individual contributor to 
even ACTO of like a smaller to 

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mid size startup. 
And so the four obstacles that I

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hope we're going to dive into 
today are the imposter syndrome,

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the burnout, trouble dealing 
with other people and self 

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marketing struggles. 
And I can tell you when it comes

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to trouble with dealing with 
other people, that was a huge 

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one for me and mostly because I 
grew up in a different country 

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than I currently live in. 
So as an immigrant, I 

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experienced how your cultural 
background can actually have an 

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impact on your career, which is 
like, you know, unless someone 

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like points it out directly. 
Hey, Dagna, you grew up in 

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Eastern Europe and now you're in
United States. 

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And that's why your 
communication comes across as 

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aggressive, even though you're 
thinking you're being direct. 

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And that's something that I 
currently help my clients with, 

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especially those who either 
immigrated to United States, 

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which is a big chunk of people 
in tech, or grew up in immigrant

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families. 
Because it's not really clear if

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you have a manager or your boss 
does not have that kind of 

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direct experience. 
It's really hard for them to 

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verbalize what is it that's 
holding you back. 

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So they're not capable of 
providing you the kind of 

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feedback you need to hear in 
order to grow. 

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Those four things, I have all of
them. 

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I'm sure everyone here also have
most of them, if not all, right.

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So I think what is very 
exciting, you mentioned in the 

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beginning that you used to 
program computer programs. 

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Now you kind of like help to 
program human minds, right? 

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And you just recently published 
a book titled Brain Refactor. 

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So I think we can use some brain
refactoring here. 

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Wow, nice. 
That's right. 

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That nice. 
Showing the book. 

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Yeah. 
So maybe let's start from this 

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one, right? 
So what makes you actually write

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this book? 
Is this something that like what

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you mentioned earlier, right. 
So you found from your journey 

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and from your coaching clients 
that there are some things that 

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we all need to be aware of as a 
software engineer. 

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So first thing that I want to 
kind of point out, it kind of 

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goes back to your very first 
question, is that I've dreamt 

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about writing a book for a long 
time. 

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The idea came to me seven years 
ago, but I actually started 

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working only on it only two 
years ago. 

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And then when I started, I 
started to be 6 months for me to

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like condense all that knowledge
and put it into a book and just 

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publish it and have it out 
there. 

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Turns out like from six months, 
the whole process exploded into 

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two years. 
But I'm really happy it did 

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because I wanted to make sure 
that it's a quality product, you

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know? 
And the reason I'm talking about

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it, this being my dream and 
being connected to your initial 

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question is because in my 
career, I didn't realize it at 

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the very beginning, but I was 
chasing impact. 

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I was always curious about 
creating impact. 

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So initially I studied control 
engineering and robotics because

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I thought, hey, if I built 
robots, surely that means I'm 

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going to build the future and 
that means I'm going to have 

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impact, right? 
Whatever that means in a mind of

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a 15 year old, right? 
That has to decide where to go 

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to high school and college. 
And so I quickly realized as a 

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robotics engineer after I 
graduated that building robots 

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takes a long time. 
And it's like I got too slow and

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I was impatient and I went to 
just go, go, go and grow in my 

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career and it was just not 
cutting it for me. 

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So then I moved from robots to 
essentially being a software 

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engineer and working in a 
setting that deployed apps who 

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would impact literally millions 
of lives. 

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And I thought, wow, that's the 
kind of impact that I want to 

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have. 
But it turned out after years of

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working in software engineering,
whenever you're 1 cog in a huge 

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machine, that might have a great
impact, if that impact is not 

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aligned with what it is that you
truly want out of your life, 

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you're just going to feel like 
that, like a cog in a machine. 

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So after years of working in 
that setup, thinking, OK, I just

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need to get to the next step, 
get that promotion, move on, get

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more money, you know, keep 
chasing those like shiny objects

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that we typically do when we 
think about career progress. 

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I've never really considered 
what I wanted other than chasing

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that impact that was very much 
undefined at that point in time.

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And I ended up burning myself 
out eventually in my career to 

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the point that a job I used to 
love, I didn't want to wake up 

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and go to work anymore. 
I didn't want to like, get 

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myself to the meeting. 
I would procrastinate on the 

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smallest of things, not wanting 
to send that Slack message or 

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follow up in an e-mail. 
I just didn't care because I 

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thought nobody valued what I had
to say. 

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And so when I wore myself out, I
hit this point where in a 

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one-on-one meeting with my 
manager, I burst into tears. 

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And in my mind, it was like, 
ridiculous because I thought, 

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no, what in hell this is 
happening right now? 

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I am a professional. 
I keep my cool at work. 

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Like, what is going on right 
now. 

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Like, I could not contain that 
feeling of being burned out and 

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unsatisfied deeply about what 
was going on in my life at the 

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time that I burst into tears. 
But that was a turning point, 

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Henry. 
And let me tell you, this was 

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really good, even though it was 
incredibly embarrassing because 

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I decided to reach out to talk 
therapy afterwards, get a third 

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party professional who would 
understand what it is that I was

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going through and could help me 
get myself out of that 

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situation. 
And after just a couple of 

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months of simply talking, not 
even taking any sort of 

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medication, just talking with 
this person who got me, my 

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quality of life changed. 
I started seeing things from a 

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completely different 
perspective. 

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And that's when it hit me, wow. 
Because it was like a massive 

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impact that she had on my life. 
And I was like, this is what I 

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want to do. 
I want to have this massive 

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impact on people's lives, 
working with them directly 

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one-on-one as a coach. 
And that's when I made the 

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transition from being an 
engineer to a coach. 

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You know, plus being there's so 
many opportunities in tech and I

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was really good at what it is 
that I was doing as a software 

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engineer. 
I had no doubt that if my 

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entrepreneurship would fail, I 
could always come back. 

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Fortunately, didn't have to. 
So I hope that answers your 

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question, both of the questions 
really. 

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Yeah. 
Thanks for sharing your story. 

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So I think it is also mentioned 
in your book, right? 

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So I think that's very good 
story for people who may be 

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relating to the experience that 
you just mentioned, right? 

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Couldn't burn out or might be 
frustrated at work, Maybe they 

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just can't progress in wherever 
they are in their role or their 

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job, right. 
So I think let's start to 

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talking about this thing about 
brain refactoring, right? 

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I think in your book you 
mentioned every one of us has 

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legacy code. 
Either it's inherited maybe 

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from, you know, childhood or 
maybe from school culture, 

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whatever that is. 
But sometimes we tend to just 

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let the legacy code run by 
itself, like unconsciously. 

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So tell us why it's very 
important for us to understand 

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this legacy code and what should
we do about it? 

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Absolutely. 
I love that you point out that 

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legacy mental code because I 
love the analogy too. 

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So I believe that the people 
here listening had a similar 

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experience when they join a new 
company that already has an 

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existing product with that 
legacy code base, right? 

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And then you kind of have to 
jump in and you have to 1st 

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understand what other people put
in there before you have the 

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chance to look into that code 
and do something about it, 

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right? 
And it's kind of the same 

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concept with the legacy mental 
code that's hidden in your 

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brain. 
Your parents put stuff in there,

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the past experiences, your 
teachers, your friends, people 

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that you just happen to watch 
or, or like live next to and and

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observe and model after. 
They have put programming into 

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your brain before you could look
into what's there and do 

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something about it, right? 
And I think that the critical 

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aspect here too is understanding
that because the legacy code is 

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already there, it is up to you 
to discover what's hidden in 

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that code base. 
Because a lot of the time we 

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don't even think about it. 
Most of the actions that we do 

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are happening on autopilot. 
So we just kind of have those 

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background processes that's been
running in our brain that 

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someone else have put there, and
we just kind of live it 

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according to it. 
Not really putting a debugging 

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point to stop and look into all 
that spaghetti code that's 

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there, all the things that are 
coupled that shouldn't be 

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coupled. 
It's not possible to like do a a

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good blame and see who or what 
particular experience put that 

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programming into your mind. 
But you can still reprogram 

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what's not working. 
You can find those hidden bugs, 

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find those inefficiencies and 
optimize your mental code. 

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Do a software update right. 
And therapy setting as well as 

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coaching setting really help 
with that because your code is 

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essentially the stored beliefs, 
the stored memories, your 

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thoughts, that all kind of 
creates that legacy mental code 

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base that you get to refactor 
whenever you choose. 

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Yeah. 
So I think it's really 

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important, right? 
So for us to actually understand

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this, there's a legacy 
programming that is embedded, 

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you know, as part of our life's 
journey, maybe, right. 

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So from childhood, maybe past 
experience, past trauma, 

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whatever life experience, right,
Sometimes unconsciously it gets 

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programmed into our mind and it 
becomes our default mode, right?

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Some people even unconsciously 
know that this is such program 

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learning that is already 
embedded. 

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So I think it's very important. 
Like one thing that can be done,

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of course, if you are self 
aware, so you know all these 

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biases that you have, or maybe 
you know, you read a lot of 

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resources and all that. 
But sometimes it's very tricky. 

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00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,840
You don't actually realize what 
make you stop in life, what make

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you stop in your career. 
And you mentioned about 

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debugging point, right? 
And in your book you mentioned 

234
00:13:50,560 --> 00:13:53,040
one of the best source of 
debugging points is actually 

235
00:13:53,040 --> 00:13:54,960
feedback. 
Maybe tell us a little bit more 

236
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:57,760
about this concept. 
Yes. 

237
00:13:57,840 --> 00:14:03,200
So feedback from a programmer's 
perspective is super valuable, 

238
00:14:03,320 --> 00:14:06,120
right? 
If you deploy an app and it gets

239
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:11,080
into your user sense and they 
click on a button and an action 

240
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:14,440
happens that was not supposed to
happen, you want to get that 

241
00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,280
feedback because that's how you 
can fix things. 

242
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,720
And it's not really personal. 
They're not attacking you. 

243
00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,760
They're just letting you know, 
hey, your software isn't working

244
00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,320
as expected. 
So let's apply it to the same 

245
00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,080
context of your own mental 
programming. 

246
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:34,040
What if the feedback that you 
get, just curious information 

247
00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:38,520
that tells you, hey, your 
software isn't working the way 

248
00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:43,000
that it's supposed to, right? 
So one way to kind of see it, 

249
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:47,120
I'm going to draw on my own 
personal example is because of 

250
00:14:47,120 --> 00:14:52,280
that cultural background that I 
mentioned that was clashing with

251
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:56,520
my American workplace after I 
moved to the States from Poland.

252
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,440
What happened one time was I was
working in a company that had 

253
00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:03,040
made a difficult decision. 
They had to let a lot of people 

254
00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,520
go, including many engineers 
that I had worked with. 

255
00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,760
Later that day at a old company 
wide meeting, I raised my hand, 

256
00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:14,520
I pointed some things out that, 
you know, I thought the 

257
00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,200
leadership team hasn't really 
thought about. 

258
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:18,720
They haven't taken them into 
account. 

259
00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:23,760
And I was worried because that 
would have impacted the way that

260
00:15:23,760 --> 00:15:27,680
we care for our mobile apps and 
then like how we care for our 

261
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,000
customers. 
I was just I was worried. 

262
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,880
I thought that my feedback was 
coming in from a place of care. 

263
00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,760
Imagine my surprise, Henry, when
literally after the meeting, one

264
00:15:38,760 --> 00:15:41,320
of the directors of engineering 
comes to me and see, he says, 

265
00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,280
Dagna, why did you call our 
executive leadership team a 

266
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:50,240
bunch of idiots? 
And my jaw dropped, right? 

267
00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,680
I was like, what? 
That's from what I said. 

268
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:56,000
Like, is this really how it came
across? 

269
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,760
And that's the kind of feedback 
I'm talking about. 

270
00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,400
With what he said, I was finally
able to understand. 

271
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:06,040
I finally got that information 
like, hey, your software isn't 

272
00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:08,240
working. 
How you communicate with other 

273
00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,720
people is not working. 
You're not getting the things 

274
00:16:11,720 --> 00:16:14,440
that you want in your life, 
which was at the time getting a 

275
00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:16,880
promotion. 
Yeah, that probably cost me a 

276
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:22,240
promotion. 
So it was really important for 

277
00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,080
me to get that information. 
But the thing about feedback 

278
00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:30,000
too, is it carries information, 
but you have to allocate a 

279
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,760
thread in your mind to actually 
process it. 

280
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,920
Because people can be giving you
feedback and you might be 

281
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:40,240
completely deaf to it and you 
might not even listen to it. 

282
00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,200
And on top of that, feedback is 
not just the words that other 

283
00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,640
people tell us, it's what 
happens around you. 

284
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,200
It's whatever brings information
to whether your software is or 

285
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,400
is not working. 
It could be getting that 

286
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,160
promotion or not getting that 
promotion. 

287
00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,080
It could be landing that next 
interview or not landing that 

288
00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,920
interview. 
It could be a conflict that you 

289
00:16:59,920 --> 00:17:04,400
have on your team. 
All that carries feedback which 

290
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,960
has information contained within
it about whether or not your 

291
00:17:09,960 --> 00:17:12,480
current software is working or 
not. 

292
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,160
Yeah, I think that's really 
important, right? 

293
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:18,319
So feedback definitely is a key 
thing for us to improve. 

294
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,400
We cannot just rely on ourselves
to improve ourselves. 

295
00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:24,400
I think it's sometimes it's kind
of like we have our blind spots.

296
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,160
Everyone has blind spots, right?
Everyone has their own biases. 

297
00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:29,760
And sometimes these kind of 
feedback definitely helps us to 

298
00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:33,040
give us signal. 
But also you pointed out very, 

299
00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:35,440
very important thing for me when
I read the book as well. 

300
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,880
It's not just the words that you
hear from other people, you 

301
00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,920
know, like 360 feedback or 
managers feedback or performance

302
00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:44,080
review feedback, but sometimes 
the situation around you may be 

303
00:17:44,080 --> 00:17:46,360
the situation that happened 
towards you, like the 

304
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,600
mispromotion or whatever the 
results that you didn't get. 

305
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:51,840
These are also good feedback for
you to reflect. 

306
00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:55,920
But one of the most important 
thing that I find about feedback

307
00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,320
is that as a person, you need to
be receptive to it, right? 

308
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:01,320
So I think in your book you 
mentioned you have to have a 

309
00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,640
psychological safety for 
yourself and be open to actually

310
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,760
listen to the feedback. 
So tell us this importance of, 

311
00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:09,480
you know, being receptive to the
feedback. 

312
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:14,160
Yes. 
So when it comes to bringing 

313
00:18:14,160 --> 00:18:17,880
feedback in, the psychological 
safety is key. 

314
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,200
Here's why. 
If you look back at how we 

315
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:26,560
evolved as a human species, 
you'll see that whatever 

316
00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:32,240
triggered our fear mechanisms, 
like the fight or flight or 

317
00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:36,680
freeze response, was good for us
evolutionarily, right? 

318
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,360
Because it helped our species 
survive. 

319
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:45,160
But our brains are not really 
adapted to the modern 

320
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,240
environment that we live in. 
That's relatively safe. 

321
00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:52,600
And by relatively safe, I mean 
there's no tooth Sabre tiger 

322
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,680
running behind you on your way 
to work, right? 

323
00:18:56,080 --> 00:19:01,240
You don't have to hunt or gather
the food because you might 

324
00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,760
starve to death. 
Most of us don't, right? 

325
00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:08,360
We just go to a grocery store in
our minds, you know, never. 

326
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,160
We're really prepared for this 
idea of being interconnected and

327
00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,280
constantly connected to Internet
or social media. 

328
00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:20,560
And we're still kind of running 
on that default configuration, 

329
00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,080
which is kind of like a caveman 
configuration because that's 

330
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,840
what the evolution made us to 
be. 

331
00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,480
And it worked, right? 
We are the most driving species 

332
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,800
on the Earth, to the point that 
we're destroying it. 

333
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,200
If we look back at how that 
default configuration was set in

334
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:43,240
place, we'll see that being wary
of feedback is a good thing, and

335
00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:48,400
not trying to grow too fast is a
good thing because that keeps 

336
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:51,840
you safe. 
Now in the modern times you have

337
00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,800
to understand how that default 
caveman config was put into 

338
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,440
place and how it worked and how 
it operates so that you can 

339
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,920
reprogram it. 
And choose to grow rapidly 

340
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:07,160
because you are safe. 
I hope that makes sense. 

341
00:20:08,040 --> 00:20:10,680
Yeah, so I think definitely it 
has been covered in many books 

342
00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,440
as well, right, about this 
evolution of our brain right 

343
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:16,680
from our primates life, so to 
speak, right, the caveman or 

344
00:20:16,680 --> 00:20:19,520
maybe you know, few hundreds 
years ago, we are hunter 

345
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,040
gatherer, right. 
So we don't like to be, I don't 

346
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:24,320
know, like put aside in the 
social thing, right. 

347
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,200
And that's why we always want to
crave that kind of safety, you 

348
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,040
know, being accepted and 
definitely critical feedback. 

349
00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:34,600
Maybe one thing that we are 
scared of, so many people are 

350
00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,320
stuck in this mode because I 
think it's kind of like 

351
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,240
threatening them, right? 
As the brain translates that. 

352
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,920
And that's why they become a bit
self defensive, probably trying 

353
00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:46,440
to find excuses and things like 
that. 

354
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,080
And definitely is one of the 
refactoring that we have to do. 

355
00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,960
So maybe before we go to your 
algorithm, I know you have a 

356
00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:55,400
very insightful algorithm in 
your book. 

357
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,960
You also covered the three 
common refactoring things, which

358
00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,000
I find it is very applicable in 
everyone's life, I believe. 

359
00:21:03,360 --> 00:21:05,800
So maybe if you can elaborate a 
little bit more, what are the 

360
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,400
these three common refactoring 
so that this is like the basic, 

361
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:12,480
you know, renaming stuff, moving
class and things like that. 

362
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:15,720
I I assume so maybe tell us 
about these three common 

363
00:21:15,720 --> 00:21:19,240
refactoring mode? 
Yes, let me just pull it up real

364
00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,360
quick inside the book so I 
don't. 

365
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,400
I rename my own refactoring 
algorithms. 

366
00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:30,360
So basically there are three 
refactors that I recommend in 

367
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,360
the very beginning when I talk 
about the source code of the 

368
00:21:33,360 --> 00:21:36,360
mind, right? 
The number one is attention 

369
00:21:36,400 --> 00:21:40,000
allocation adjustment. 
And it's really critical where 

370
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,120
you put your attention. 
It matters, right? 

371
00:21:42,120 --> 00:21:47,080
As engineers, we tend to put our
attention into things that are 

372
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:50,520
curious, that are fun, that are 
intellectually stimulating, that

373
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,520
are hard, right? 
Because that brings us pleasure.

374
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,680
Staying after midnight to finish
that bug fix or finish that 

375
00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,720
feature off. 
It's just so satisfying. 

376
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,920
When in reality, your attention,
if you want to grow in your 

377
00:22:04,920 --> 00:22:08,200
career has to be focused on 
things that produce business 

378
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,520
impact. 
Without that impact, without 

379
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:16,040
prioritizing business, you're 
just not going to get too far 

380
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:18,640
because you're not helping the 
bottom line, right? 

381
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:23,440
So in other words, or as I put 
it in the book, business comes 

382
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,760
first always, and then quality 
engineering comes after. 

383
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,720
The second factor that you 
mentioned, Henry, was mental 

384
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:37,360
resource management. 
And it's very important to think

385
00:22:37,360 --> 00:22:42,680
about your brain as your tool, 
as the most important tool that 

386
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:46,720
you have in your toolbox. 
So if you're running on empty, 

387
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,640
if you're coming to work tired, 
your ability to solve problems, 

388
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,920
which is the core of the 
engineering job, is going to be 

389
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,560
impacted. 
You're going to be impaired. 

390
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:59,720
You're not going to be able to 
solve problems as efficiently if

391
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:04,880
you were well rested, well fed, 
and in a good mood, right? 

392
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,520
So it's really critical to make 
sure that your tool, the brain 

393
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,040
that you're using to solve 
problems is being taken care of.

394
00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:15,760
That you take the downtime that 
you need, that you take 

395
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:20,960
vacation, that you go on breaks,
that you care about the team 

396
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,200
dynamics and the atmosphere that
surrounds you both at work and 

397
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:29,880
at home so that you can be 
efficient in doing your job. 

398
00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:35,720
The third refactor is called 
conversational outcome 

399
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,920
calibration, and part of it is 
coming from my experience of 

400
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,000
working as an engineer where 
I've been a part of or I've 

401
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,400
observed that there's a 
ridiculous conversation on 

402
00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,920
what's better. 
Is it Linux, Is it Mac? 

403
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:54,160
Is it Windows? 
Is it C++? 

404
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:55,720
Is it C? 
Is it Java? 

405
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,280
Is it Android? 
Is it iOS? 

406
00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,800
And people just keep fighting 
where in reality, it doesn't 

407
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,800
matter. 
What matters is what kind of 

408
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,960
problem you're solving, what 
kind of tools you have 

409
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:10,800
available, and then what are the
constraints. 

410
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:15,960
So again, this kind of ties us 
back to this idea of serving 

411
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,000
business 1st and trying to solve
a business problem using 

412
00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,720
applicable tools, right? 
Because at the end of the day, 

413
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,320
programming languages, 
environments, and frameworks are

414
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:27,400
just tools. 
So you have to figure out what's

415
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:32,320
available in the market in the 
capacity of your team and then 

416
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,640
use the tools that you have on 
hand in order to solve a 

417
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,240
problem, right? 
But it goes back to this kind of

418
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,680
thinking that business comes 
first. 

419
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,280
Yeah, so I find this is really 
important for many engineers 

420
00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:47,800
because we all techies like to 
solve hard problems, you know 

421
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,240
like technical hard problems. 
Learn new technologies. 

422
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,560
There's a plenty of technologies
these days and also we like to 

423
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,960
have strong opinion on some 
technical stuff, right, Just 

424
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,080
like what you mentioned is it 
programming language, 

425
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:02,400
technology, cloud, whatever that
is, right. 

426
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,600
It seems to have like some sites
that we choose and we fight 

427
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:06,880
against each other because of 
that. 

428
00:25:07,360 --> 00:25:10,160
And I think one important thing 
is about the maintaining the the

429
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,440
health of the brain, right, so 
to speak, be able to maintain 

430
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,640
your freshness, be able to avoid
burnout. 

431
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,800
You know, some people maybe work
long hours over the weekends as 

432
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:22,000
well, never stop. 
So I think that those definitely

433
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,880
need some refactoring. 
So let's go into this 

434
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:26,840
refactoring algorithm that you 
have, right? 

435
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,200
So for people who may have, I 
don't know, like some particular

436
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,720
situations in which the bug, 
it's so tricky or maybe it's 

437
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,520
just so difficult to solve, you 
have these five steps, right, in

438
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,760
order to kind of like help solve
the dots. 

439
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:43,120
So maybe if you can outline us 
what are these five steps and 

440
00:25:43,120 --> 00:25:45,960
maybe how can we use it, maybe 
using an example? 

441
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:48,920
Yes. 
So let's name the steps 1st and 

442
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,560
then we can dive in one by one. 
The first one is to identify 

443
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,120
root causes. 
The second one plan out the re 

444
00:25:56,120 --> 00:25:59,240
factor. 
Third one script new responses, 

445
00:25:59,920 --> 00:26:03,040
4th is build libraries of 
evidence. 

446
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:07,160
And then the first one is to 
continuously execute, right? 

447
00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,800
So with the identification of 
root causes, it's very similar 

448
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,440
with what we do in software, 
right? 

449
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,800
Like in order to understand why 
there's a bug that a user or 

450
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,360
beta tester reported, we need to
kind of understand, it's like, 

451
00:26:20,360 --> 00:26:25,400
OK, when I click this, which 
function class object does it 

452
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,160
call? 
Which file is it? 

453
00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:30,000
How is that related to all the 
other things that are being 

454
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:31,840
triggered? 
Is there any background process 

455
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:33,600
that might be hijacking this 
whole thing? 

456
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,440
So we would be like setting 
debugging points in order to 

457
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,560
kind of like, well, depending on
the language, right? 

458
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,680
We've just talked about the 
tools, but we will be trying to 

459
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:48,360
kind of like follow the line and
see what's the root cause of 

460
00:26:48,360 --> 00:26:50,840
that particular behavior of our 
application. 

461
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,440
So when we look at our legacy 
mental code, it's similar, 

462
00:26:54,800 --> 00:27:01,960
except in programming encoding, 
we look into lines of code, we 

463
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,360
look into files. 
And in terms of the mental 

464
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,840
programming code, we're going to
be looking at our beliefs about 

465
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,440
our thoughts. 
What are the memories that we 

466
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:17,080
have that are connected to that 
particular behavior to 

467
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:23,200
understand what is it in the 
past that programmed me to be 

468
00:27:23,360 --> 00:27:27,440
the way I currently am, right? 
We're digging into that legacy 

469
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:30,880
mental code who someone else 
really created, and we're trying

470
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,800
to refactor what's not working. 
Once we're able to identify the 

471
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,640
root causes, we take on to the 
next step. 

472
00:27:39,120 --> 00:27:40,880
We want to plan out the 
refactor, right? 

473
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,440
We want to know what is it that 
we're replacing with what, what 

474
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:49,160
are the potential side effects 
that we should be experienced 

475
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:55,960
expecting, and essentially what 
kind of behavior we want to be 

476
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,640
happening instead of the buggy 
behavior that's happening right 

477
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,760
now. 
So for example, when it comes to

478
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,160
that example that I mentioned 
earlier about my poor 

479
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,280
communication style and how it 
was stopping me from getting 

480
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,000
that promotion, one of the 
things that I wanted to fix for 

481
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,920
myself was change how I 
communicated, how I came across 

482
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,920
and what I needed to implement 
was using a different 

483
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,120
communication style. 
So I was coming across as an 

484
00:28:24,120 --> 00:28:27,680
aggressive communicator. 
What I needed was assertive 

485
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:31,520
communication skill set. 
So I had to implement that skill

486
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:38,080
set first and then make sure to 
monitor if I was following it, 

487
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,960
right, If I was actually using 
the assertive communication 

488
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,280
style instead of the aggressive 
one. 

489
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,880
In the third one, we're 
scripting new responses. 

490
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,520
So those responses are 
essentially you could think 

491
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:57,120
about it as something that you 
want to consciously implement 

492
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:59,960
instead of what is currently 
happening, right? 

493
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,480
So my default would be giving it
to you straight, being very 

494
00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,080
direct and just naming the 
problem. 

495
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,760
So my new response that I 
scripted for myself was to take 

496
00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,000
a breath, pause, and use the new
skills that I've learned are on 

497
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,680
the assertive communication. 
So the communication that would 

498
00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:26,600
come out of my mouth was not as 
direct, but was rather 

499
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,640
assertive. 
And I have some specific 

500
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,080
guidelines for what assertive 
actually means. 

501
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,920
The first step is building 
libraries of evidence. 

502
00:29:36,520 --> 00:29:39,080
And there are different types of
libraries of evidence. 

503
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:43,400
So what you want to do is 
essentially understand that your

504
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,600
brain is smart and it's not just
going to believe whatever. 

505
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:51,760
And in a way, you could think of
it as having your application 

506
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:55,040
written in a specific language. 
You have to be able to match 

507
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,400
that language or pull in any 
plugs that will kind of 

508
00:29:58,400 --> 00:29:59,920
translate from 1:00 to the 
other. 

509
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,560
But if you're just going to plug
in two different languages 

510
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,200
together, they're probably not 
going to compile, right? 

511
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,480
And your brain works in a 
similar matter. 

512
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:12,760
So when you're bringing building
libraries of evidence, it has to

513
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:17,240
match to what is already there. 
You want to write libraries that

514
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,880
are kind of based on what it is 
that you already believed to be 

515
00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,960
true. 
The four that I mentioned are 

516
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:26,800
repository of past experiences. 
You want to dig into the past 

517
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,360
and see yourself in situations 
that you've already been in, but

518
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,280
from a different perspective, in
a different light, and that can 

519
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:37,000
help you change how you think 
about yourself. 

520
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,640
You want to use visualization 
because that's really powerful 

521
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:44,240
and we know anyone who's seen 
Olympics probably heard about 

522
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:49,000
the topic as well, that it's 
commonly used by athletes to win

523
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:51,840
gold medals. 
Then we also have third party 

524
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:55,200
perspective, which is allowing 
that feedback in from someone 

525
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,960
who can guide you, who can give 
you valuable feedback because 

526
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,560
who you get feedback from 
matters too. 

527
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,840
Sometimes it can be helpful, 
sometimes it's just garbage. 

528
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,240
And then the 4th 1 is outside 
models, which is looking for 

529
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:13,400
people who are having the kind 
of outcomes that you want to 

530
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:18,560
model after and then trying to 
mimic what it is that they do or

531
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,840
basically asking them, hey, how 
is it that you're doing this 

532
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,160
thing? 
I want to be like you. 

533
00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,240
How do I get to be more like 
you? 

534
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,840
What is it that you are 
thinking? 

535
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:32,600
What is it that you're doing? 
And then making adjustment in 

536
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,080
your legacy code based on what 
you've learned, these libraries 

537
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,520
of evidence, you could think of 
them as libraries that you plug 

538
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,920
in to kind of speed up your 
refactoring. 

539
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:48,440
So you don't always have to 
create a new image library. 

540
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:52,360
You can just plug in one to draw
the image that you're trying to 

541
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,600
draw within your application. 
That just makes things much 

542
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,760
faster, right? 
And then finally, the step #5 is

543
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,600
to continuously execute. 
And you want to execute because 

544
00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:07,920
otherwise that programming is 
not going to take. 

545
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:09,720
And I know it might be 
frustrating because I keep 

546
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,200
comparing the brain to legacy 
code. 

547
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:14,640
And you might be thinking, 
Henry, something along the lines

548
00:32:14,640 --> 00:32:17,760
like Dagna. 
But if I created the feature and

549
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:19,680
deployed it, then that's it, 
that's it. 

550
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,400
I don't have to do anything 
more, right? 

551
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,200
But with the human brain, 
basically we need to 

552
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:31,160
continuously execute, keep on 
implementing the new pathways, 

553
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,320
because as we think new things, 
as we do new things, our brain 

554
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,720
changes its hardware, right? 
So the programming lines are not

555
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:43,520
programming lines, they're 
actual neuron and synapses that 

556
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,320
are getting built in our brain. 
And that takes time because we 

557
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,160
need to grow those pathways. 
We need to reinforce and 

558
00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:53,400
strengthen them. 
And by continuously executing 

559
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,880
different patterns of thoughts, 
different patterns of behaviors,

560
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,520
different kinds of beliefs, 
that's going to take time before

561
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,520
it actually sinks in. 
So these are the five. 

562
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,520
Steps. 
Thanks for outlining these five 

563
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,320
steps right again, just to 
repeat, identify the root cause,

564
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:13,280
plan the refactoring script, new
responses. 

565
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:16,640
I feel that this step 123 is 
like the TDD loop, right? 

566
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,720
Where you probably want to write
the test cases, right? 

567
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,560
You plan the refactoring, write 
the test cases so that you can 

568
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,920
actually implement the the 
production code, the good 

569
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:27,280
production code. 
And then the 4th step is 

570
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,000
actually build libraries of 
evidence. 

571
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,960
So this is kind of like 
enriching your past experience 

572
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,600
maybe from other people or maybe
model that you want to follow 

573
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,880
and ask from. 
And the last one is to 

574
00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:40,160
continuously execute. 
Think of it like maybe a 

575
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,000
continuous integration pipeline 
that helps you to actually 

576
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:47,040
continue to adopt new behaviors.
So I think from all these steps,

577
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,520
what I find really, really 
important is actually step #3 

578
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:53,400
which is to script new 
responses, right? 

579
00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,000
So sometimes, you know, all 
these legacy mental code is like

580
00:33:57,160 --> 00:33:58,720
habit, right? 
It's a bias. 

581
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,480
And in order to change that, 
it's not so easy. 

582
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:03,040
It's like changing your habit, 
right? 

583
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,640
I think it takes a lot of small 
steps and in incremental 

584
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,600
conscious step that you can do. 
So tell us maybe, maybe from 

585
00:34:10,600 --> 00:34:13,040
your experience, you know, 
changing your communication 

586
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:17,280
style, How can you use a new 
scripts to actually change your 

587
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,639
communication style? 
Yes, so I give really great 

588
00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,360
examples within the book, 
specifically in the case of 

589
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:27,920
burnout, imposter syndrome, 
trouble dealing with other 

590
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:30,840
people in self marketing 
struggles, the four common 

591
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,880
themes that I mentioned. 
And in the book I actually 

592
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,000
outlined some of my clients case
studies. 

593
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:42,040
So these are based on my work 
with real engineers in 

594
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,520
engineering positions who are 
struggling with those particular

595
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:47,679
things. 
And when it comes to scripts, 

596
00:34:47,679 --> 00:34:52,199
it's really few steps that you 
want to outline for yourself 

597
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:56,639
that when you notice that a 
trigger is coming or you want to

598
00:34:56,639 --> 00:35:00,920
take a specific action, you 
remind yourself of those few 

599
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:05,240
steps to take, right? 
So the scripts are very simple, 

600
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,280
very easy, nothing complicated, 
right? 

601
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:13,560
It could be as simple as when 
you notice, for example, that 

602
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,080
it's your turn to speak and you 
don't want to sound like an 

603
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:18,920
arrogant asshole how I used to 
sound. 

604
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:23,040
So you essentially take a pause,
take a moment, take a deep 

605
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:28,520
breath to relax yourself and 
create that environment of 

606
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,760
psychological safety. 
Breathing is phenomenal tool in 

607
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:37,240
order to do that and say the 
things in a way you want to save

608
00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:39,520
them. 
So when it comes to being 

609
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:44,360
assertive, the first thing that 
you want to do is make sure that

610
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:47,520
you are acknowledging what other
people are bringing to the 

611
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,480
table. 
Then you're stating your 

612
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:53,040
concerns or talk about your 
needs, depending on what it is 

613
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:56,680
that you're talking about. 
And you have to make all that 

614
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:02,400
making sure you're not trying to
manipulate anyone else into 

615
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,160
agreeing with you, right? 
So still giving people the the 

616
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:08,160
option to disagree with you and 
being OK with that, right? 

617
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:12,240
You're just there giving your 
own opinion, sharing 

618
00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:17,120
information, but without putting
the pressure on others to agree 

619
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:20,560
with you. 
So that's basically the 

620
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,720
assertive communication bit that
I wanted to share. 

621
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,600
And that's how my script would 
look like, right? 

622
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,000
The important part about the 
script is you have to be aware 

623
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,160
and notice when you want to 
invoke them. 

624
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,600
And it's kind of like go to the 
terminal and essentially 

625
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,480
manually invoking the script. 
There's no way to automate it 

626
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:44,120
other than repeating it. 
And then by repetition it will 

627
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,120
finally sink in. 
Those neural pathways in your 

628
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,400
brain are going to be created 
and your new automatic responses

629
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,200
are going to be overwritten, and
they're not going to be the old 

630
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:57,040
ones like in my case, being 
arrogant, being direct, being 

631
00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,880
harsh and rude, but being 
assertive instead. 

632
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,720
Yeah, So think of it like the 
interrupt, right? 

633
00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:05,640
In your book, you mentioned it's
like an interrupt. 

634
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,400
So it's a program that keeps 
running. 

635
00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:09,800
You know, sometimes you just 
want to keep a pause, or maybe 

636
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:12,480
you just want to change, take 
the behavior a bit, right? 

637
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,040
So it's like an interrupt that 
you put in the program to give a

638
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,440
signal that, hey, maybe you 
should try something else, 

639
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,040
right? 
So I think this script is really

640
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,360
powerful because, you know, you 
can't just change the habit 

641
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,320
overnight, right? 
You need to take a small 

642
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,560
incremental step. 
And also the most important 

643
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,560
thing, like you should feel 
psychologically safe to change 

644
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,560
the behavior, right? 
Sometimes it takes a while 

645
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,480
before you can actually do so. 
And as we go to a lot of 

646
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,280
refactoring, especially when you
change a lot of legacy code, 

647
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,600
obviously one of the biggest 
challenge in coding is actually 

648
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,560
about merge conflict. 
So when you change so many 

649
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,160
things, like you don't know 
what's going to happen, right? 

650
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,080
Maybe there are more bucks. 
So in your book you also cover 

651
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,760
about this challenge about the 
merge conflict, which is about 

652
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,280
the cognitive dissonance someone
might experience something that 

653
00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,640
gets them into some kind of a 
weird situation where they don't

654
00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:02,480
believe in what they're doing. 
So maybe tell us about how we 

655
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:06,360
can resolve this conflict. 
I love that you brought it up 

656
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:08,800
right. 
Merge conflict in programming is

657
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:13,120
so common and it's so annoying 
because you just upload the code

658
00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:17,160
and you know you want to be done
with merging in your feature 

659
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,600
request and then there's a merge
conflict and you have to fix 

660
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,400
everything. 
And it's so annoying, right? 

661
00:38:22,400 --> 00:38:25,560
And with mental code, it's the 
same kind of concept because 

662
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,680
you've worked so hard to 
implement this new code, but 

663
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:30,920
it's not sticking for some 
reason, right? 

664
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:36,680
And that's when it's important 
to understand this concept in 

665
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:38,680
the setting of mental 
programming. 

666
00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:43,400
Basically, you'll notice emerge 
conflict is coming up. 

667
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,080
If you notice that cognitive 
dissonance, cognitive dissonance

668
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,840
comes from holding 2 beliefs who
are at odds with each other, 

669
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:54,920
right? 
So for example, you could 

670
00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:00,640
believe things like I am an 
honest person with integrity and

671
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:06,640
at the same time believe that 
marketing is lying to people. 

672
00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,640
It's basically deceiving other 
people. 

673
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:14,000
And then say you work with a 
coach or you're trying to get 

674
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,520
that promotion and you're trying
to market yourself more. 

675
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,520
What's going to happen? 
You're going to feel a lot of 

676
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:24,080
discomfort. 
It might show up as a tension in

677
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,440
your body. 
You might notice that even 

678
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,360
though you consciously are 
trying to market yourself more, 

679
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:31,360
the words are not coming out of 
your mouth. 

680
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:33,960
Like your behavior is not in 
integrity. 

681
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:37,160
What it is that you're trying to
do because there's submerged 

682
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,600
conflict, the two conflicting 
beliefs that you hold. 

683
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:45,040
I'm a person of integrity and 
marketing is lying to other 

684
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:48,400
people or at odds with each 
other, right? 

685
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:52,280
So you have to update the model.
And obviously we don't want you 

686
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,080
to update the model of yourself 
being, yes, I'm a cheater, I'm a

687
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,640
liar, and I'm OK with that 
because that's that's not what 

688
00:39:57,640 --> 00:40:00,760
we're about here. 
But you can update the model of 

689
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:04,480
what marketing is. 
What if marketing mean actually 

690
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:08,880
educating other people with 
integrity about what it is that 

691
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,720
you have to offer and the value 
that you get to bring if you 

692
00:40:12,720 --> 00:40:17,040
update that model of marketing? 
There's no more conflict because

693
00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:21,440
all of a sudden you can market 
yourself as a person of 

694
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,840
integrity that you believe you 
are, right. 

695
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:28,960
So being on the lookout on those
merge conflict is kind of an art

696
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,600
in a way, because you have to be
really observant and aware of 

697
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,000
what is it that is coming up for
you internally or externally, 

698
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:39,360
right? 
And a lot of the time, that's 

699
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:43,120
when having that third party 
perspective is so valuable 

700
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,680
because you could be following 
the advice from my book, for 

701
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:49,360
example, and not notice that 
you're having a merge conflict. 

702
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,160
But then you talk with your 
friend who you worked with two 

703
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,000
companies ago, two jobs ago, and
they're like, hey, by the way, 

704
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,840
you said you were going to do 
this, but your behavior is 

705
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,680
completely out of line. 
Like there might be a merge 

706
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:05,120
conflict there. 
So like you need that third 

707
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:08,160
party perspective that will help
you notice those merge 

708
00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,000
conflicts. 
But I love that you brought it 

709
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,360
up, Henry, and that we got to 
share this idea because I think 

710
00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:18,560
it's a very fun parallel between
the programming code, the 

711
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,200
technical that we know that we 
do in our daily jobs as software

712
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,480
engineers and the one that's 
happening in your own brain. 

713
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:26,960
Yeah, definitely. 
It's quite fascinating to 

714
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,920
discuss about this, right? 
And with other much conflicts 

715
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:31,320
that we experience in life, 
right? 

716
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:34,720
So sometimes it's very risky to 
just, you know, apply the 

717
00:41:34,720 --> 00:41:37,560
mergers ourselves, right, 
Especially if we don't fully 

718
00:41:37,560 --> 00:41:40,760
understand the kind of changes 
that we are getting from the 

719
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,440
other branch, for example. 
And it's always important maybe 

720
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,680
to bring the third party us, you
know, what these changes are 

721
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:49,560
before you actually embed that 
into your programming. 

722
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:51,760
So I think that's kind of like a
good analogy of, you know, how 

723
00:41:51,760 --> 00:41:53,120
to resolve much conflicts, 
right? 

724
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:56,680
So I think that's a key for 
everyone, one who feel that the 

725
00:41:56,680 --> 00:42:00,240
change that you want to aim 
doesn't feel right somehow in 

726
00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:03,040
your belief. 
So maybe that's why solving much

727
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:06,400
conflicts by asking from others,
maybe coach, maybe your friends,

728
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:09,520
it would be a great help. 
So you mentioned about the four 

729
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,280
common, you know, box, right, 
that typically we have. 

730
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:16,960
So during our last section of 
our conversation, I'd like to 

731
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,520
probably take one or two and 
maybe it's some of your 

732
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,280
favourites, right? 
So maybe if you can take either 

733
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:24,600
the burnout, IT process 
syndrome, dealing with other 

734
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,680
people or self marketing, maybe 
we can take some of them to 

735
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:31,080
actually go through, walk 
through what are the common box 

736
00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,760
from each of the category and 
how we can resolve that. 

737
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:37,080
Awesome. 
OK, yes, these are the four that

738
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:39,920
are super common I see over and 
over again. 

739
00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:44,200
And when you think about these 4
obstacles, they are usually the 

740
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,280
ones that are holding you back 
from thriving in tech or in 

741
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,680
engineering or in your career 
and that are stopping you from 

742
00:42:51,680 --> 00:42:55,800
getting that, whether it's 
success, fulfillment, money or 

743
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,520
impact that you're looking for 
in your career. 

744
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:03,160
So when you can refactor these 
out, then you can open yourself 

745
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:06,080
up to incredible opportunities 
that are available there in 

746
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:07,920
tech, right? 
I feel like tech is such an 

747
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:12,520
incredible industry where so 
many things can happen. 

748
00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:16,440
So in terms of like the one that
I would like to dive into would 

749
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:19,640
probably be burnout. 
Why? 

750
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,040
One, because it's very personal 
to me. 

751
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:27,160
I've experienced it first hand. 
But two, there are some, I would

752
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,000
call them legacy mental 
programming that led to my 

753
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:35,680
burnout that I see that are very
common among the engineers that 

754
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:37,880
I used to work with and I work 
with right now as a coach. 

755
00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:44,320
So number one is perfectionism 
and perfectionism can lead you 

756
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,480
to burnout whenever it's an 
OverDrive, right? 

757
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,880
So there are two different 
configurations that I want to 

758
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:54,200
distinguish here, being a 
perfectionist versus being a 

759
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,760
high achiever, right? 
When you're a perfectionist, 

760
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,640
you're going to have impossible 
standards. 

761
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:06,200
And that is a highway to burn 
out basically, because you're 

762
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:11,320
always striving to do more, to 
do better, and there's never 

763
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,600
enough, You're never good enough
because the perfection is just 

764
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,400
impossible. 
But if you're a high achiever, 

765
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:23,840
you set the bar high, but your 
mindset is set on the journey, 

766
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,800
not the destination. 
So you're OK with failing as 

767
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:31,600
long as you learn and grow as a 
result. 

768
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,040
So you don't want to be a 
perfectionist because you're 

769
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:35,840
going to burn yourself out just 
like I did. 

770
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:41,120
You want to be a high achiever, 
which is phenomenal for, you 

771
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,960
know, the kind of growth that's 
possible and achieving a lot in 

772
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:50,520
your career, but without the 
detrimental to mental health 

773
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:54,760
effects that perfectionism has. 
The second legacy mental 

774
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,680
programming that led to my 
burnout was hard work bias. 

775
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:01,080
And I see it over and over and 
over again because again, as 

776
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:06,240
engineers, as we go through our 
education, we are essentially 

777
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:11,280
trained to overvalue the 
technical skills that are 

778
00:45:11,280 --> 00:45:17,000
difficult and hard and 
undervalue the people skills, 

779
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,680
but also things that are boring,
that are copy based, that are 

780
00:45:21,680 --> 00:45:24,320
just like, yeah, I don't want to
do that, right? 

781
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,160
We tend to ask engineers 
overvalue things that are hard 

782
00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,360
and assign more value to things 
that are difficult and hard and 

783
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:37,680
undervalue things that can have 
a massive business impact that 

784
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:42,040
are easy, right? 
A simple copy based, a simple 

785
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:46,440
change of the buttons color can 
have a business impact, right? 

786
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,160
And engineers tend to dismiss 
that because again, we tend to 

787
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:52,720
overvalue what's hard, what's 
difficult. 

788
00:45:53,240 --> 00:45:57,680
In terms of my particular 
experience, I remember clearly 

789
00:45:57,680 --> 00:45:59,720
working on these two tasks 
back-to-back. 

790
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:05,440
One of them was essentially 
super interesting, super fun. 

791
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,480
I love doing it. 
It was intellectually 

792
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,680
stimulating, challenging, and I 
was so proud of myself when I 

793
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,000
did it. 
It was essentially rewriting the

794
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,040
mobile app that we had and the 
build time. 

795
00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:18,840
I was able to reduce the build 
time of the app from 5 minutes 

796
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,400
and something to like 20 
seconds. 

797
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:27,280
Like, wow, you know, I finished 
it and I was just so proud of 

798
00:46:27,280 --> 00:46:29,880
myself, Henry. 
I mean, you, you, you could 

799
00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:31,720
probably tell. 
I can see you're smiling and 

800
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:36,000
you're like, yes, I did that too
in the past. 

801
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:41,160
And then literally the next week
I had this boring copy paste 

802
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:44,520
task where it was kind of like 
setting up a build for one of 

803
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:47,040
the bigger clients for the 
business. 

804
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,320
But it was boring. 
It was super boring. 

805
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,200
So I did it really quick because
I wanted it off my plate. 

806
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,720
I wanted to do more fun stuff. 
And guess what? 

807
00:46:56,200 --> 00:47:00,880
After I did my first task that I
thought was hard and difficult 

808
00:47:00,880 --> 00:47:04,480
and was wow that I did it, 
nobody cared. 

809
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:10,000
It changed just my life and one 
other engineer and nobody cared.

810
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,400
It didn't had impact. 
I was happy but that's it. 

811
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:19,200
The second boring task that I 
did faster than the time was 

812
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,320
allocated for because I wanted 
to not do it for too long 

813
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:26,760
because I was boring everybody 
from like the sales Rep, the 

814
00:47:26,760 --> 00:47:31,520
marketing Rep, the customer 
representative, my boss, their 

815
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:33,880
boss, everybody was like dogma. 
That's amazing. 

816
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,160
Wow. 
Turns out that that client 

817
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:39,280
brought a lot of revenue to the 
business and keeping that client

818
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:43,200
happy made the business bottom 
line flourish. 

819
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,120
And that's when it clicked, You 
know, it clicked to me that I 

820
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:51,640
have to focus on business impact
rather than valuing what's hard 

821
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:54,520
or stimulating and fun and 
challenging. 

822
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,880
That's sometimes easy if it has 
the impact is the way to go. 

823
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:03,440
That was a huge eye opener. 
And I see it over and over and 

824
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,000
over again in my coaching 
practice too, which is tend to 

825
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:10,160
value what's difficult. 
The third one that I want to 

826
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,280
talk about, the legacy mental 
programming that led to mind 

827
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,960
burnout was basically lack of 
boundaries. 

828
00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:20,600
This concept, I have not heard 
about boundaries before. 

829
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:24,880
I ended up in therapy trying to 
fix my burnout back in 2019 

830
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:27,880
after that one-on-one when I was
crying in front of my manager. 

831
00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:34,200
Totally embarrassing. 
So the idea of boundaries to me 

832
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:38,360
feel similar to the idea of 
testing practices when you're in

833
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,840
college, when you're in boot 
camp, you don't really care 

834
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:44,440
about that, right? 
It's only whenever you get your 

835
00:48:44,440 --> 00:48:47,680
first professional job, you 
start, I mean, ideally, 

836
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:51,080
hopefully you Start learning 
about tests and testing 

837
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:56,400
practices so that whenever 
you're creating code, you can 

838
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,800
anticipate some problems that 
might happen. 

839
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:04,040
So in a way, tests are there to 
protect your system, the 

840
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:06,880
integrity of your system, and so
are boundaries. 

841
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,880
Boundaries are meant to protect 
your well-being so that you're 

842
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:14,120
in a good place. 
You don't burn yourself out. 

843
00:49:14,240 --> 00:49:17,560
You don't do things that are 
potentially bad to your 

844
00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,360
well-being. 
But I haven't learned that 

845
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:24,320
concept until, you know, it's 
kind of late, but if you can 

846
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,920
learn about creating healthy 
boundaries for yourself, it's 

847
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:32,960
kind of like learning about 
testing in college right before 

848
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,840
you actually need it. 
So then you go, wow, the 

849
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,960
interviewers. 
So whenever you're getting your 

850
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:42,280
job interviews as a first grad. 
And the same idea applies here. 

851
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,720
If you know how to put 
protective boundaries, you're 

852
00:49:46,720 --> 00:49:50,640
going to be in a good place. 
You're going to be able to avoid

853
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,600
a lot of trouble down the road 
that are bound to happen if 

854
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,280
there are no boundaries, or 
bound to happen if there are no 

855
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:01,120
tests. 
Well, thank you again for such a

856
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,320
great story, right, personal 
story. 

857
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,360
So this is kind of like from 
your experience and your career,

858
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:07,840
right? 
So I think just to mention 

859
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,320
again, the typical, you know, 
burnout, anti patterns, you call

860
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,440
it you call them, right. 
So the first one is the 

861
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,760
perfectionism bias, right? 
So you always strive to be 

862
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,960
perfect, you know, you want to 
the level of details that is 

863
00:50:19,960 --> 00:50:22,240
sometimes impossible, right, for
some people to follow. 

864
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:25,680
This is sometimes gets you 
frustrated and also spend a lot 

865
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,160
of time to actually do it. 
The second one is about hard 

866
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:31,920
work bias, So always choosing 
the work that is more difficult,

867
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:35,320
more engaging, maybe even 
intellectually more engaging. 

868
00:50:35,600 --> 00:50:38,360
But actually you mentioned in 
the beginning, business comes 

869
00:50:38,360 --> 00:50:41,000
first, right, always. 
And the quality engineering 

870
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,200
comes next. 
And the third one is about clear

871
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:44,960
boundaries. 
So I think this is also 

872
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,920
something that a lot of people 
experienced maybe during 

873
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,040
pandemic, maybe in the past few 
years, where there are a lot of 

874
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:54,360
changes in the industry rights, 
be it AI, be it the layoff and 

875
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:56,640
all that. 
Protecting your mental health 

876
00:50:56,640 --> 00:50:58,560
and well-being is definitely an 
investment. 

877
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:00,200
You mentioned that in the book 
as well. 

878
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,960
So don't forget about coming up 
with boundaries, right? 

879
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,960
Be it, you know, like not taking
too much of on your plate, 

880
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:08,200
right? 
Or maybe also ask help. 

881
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:09,760
I think that's very important as
well. 

882
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:11,560
Not everything must be done by 
yourself. 

883
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:14,960
Maybe you should check, you 
know, in your life at the 

884
00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,680
moment, is there any boundaries 
that are kind of like crossed 

885
00:51:17,680 --> 00:51:20,240
too much? 
So probably you should also try 

886
00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,800
to protect that. 
So maybe we have one more common

887
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,120
box that you can cover quickly. 
Is there any other favorite that

888
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:31,720
you would like to cover? 
Yes, the idea of dealing with 

889
00:51:31,720 --> 00:51:34,040
other people, right, that being 
a struggle. 

890
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,800
And you know, again, I will be 
drawing from my own personal 

891
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,520
experience, which is when this 
weird thing happened in my 

892
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:44,880
career, when someone who wasn't 
even a boot camp grab, he was a 

893
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,960
self-taught dev, got promoted 
over my head to a team league 

894
00:51:49,960 --> 00:51:55,120
position that I wanted. 
And at first I was outraged 

895
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,000
because I was a senior engineer.
I had more years of experience, 

896
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:02,320
I had better education, I knew 
more. 

897
00:52:02,720 --> 00:52:06,000
But, and as we already talked 
about it, I didn't have those 

898
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,480
people skills and the 
communication skills, right? 

899
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:12,840
So in the book, I explore this 
concept of lone wolf versus a 

900
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:17,480
master collaborator and who I 
was at the point in time when I 

901
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,160
missed out on that promotion and
being super angry about it. 

902
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:23,760
Initially, I was being a lone 
wolf. 

903
00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:27,960
I cared about mostly myself. 
They don't really care that much

904
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,920
about team dynamics. 
I was interested in pursuing and

905
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,040
growing my technical knowledge, 
but I didn't necessarily share 

906
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:38,840
that knowledge with my teammates
like over lunch and learn or 

907
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:40,560
presentation or meet up or 
whatever. 

908
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:46,120
And so, you know, when you're a 
lone wolf, you're going to get 

909
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,680
to that senior engineer tops. 
But forget about being a staff 

910
00:52:49,680 --> 00:52:53,000
engineer, forget about being an 
architect, forget about becoming

911
00:52:53,000 --> 00:52:56,000
ACTO. 
Because at the end of the day, 

912
00:52:56,480 --> 00:53:02,280
as engineers, we work with other
people, creating products for 

913
00:53:02,280 --> 00:53:04,880
other people. 
And so like, the people aspect 

914
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:10,000
is just unescapable. 
But if you can figure out how to

915
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:16,600
work effectively with other 
people, then basically you're 

916
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,920
able to create a lot of impact 
as a master collaborator. 

917
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:24,480
And this is who that person who 
got promoted over my head was. 

918
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:28,360
There will be much more 
opportunities for you, right? 

919
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:32,000
Because you grew your impact 
instead of being that solo 

920
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,160
person who has 24 hours within a
day. 

921
00:53:35,720 --> 00:53:39,920
If you get to lead A-Team, 
you're able to have, you know, 

922
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:45,040
if there's three people on your 
team, 3 * 2472 hours in your 

923
00:53:45,040 --> 00:53:47,560
day. 
And that's kind of the output 

924
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,280
that you get to produce that you
get to claim, you know, rewards 

925
00:53:52,280 --> 00:53:55,360
for in your career. 
So it's really important to 

926
00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:00,280
understand this idea of where do
you as an individual contributor

927
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,200
thinking about progressing in 
your career lie on the spectrum 

928
00:54:03,680 --> 00:54:08,400
from on one hand, being a lone 
wolf to being a master 

929
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,280
collaborator. 
Because if you want to progress 

930
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:14,760
in tech, if you want to have 
impact, you need other people on

931
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,120
board. 
You need to master dealing with 

932
00:54:18,120 --> 00:54:22,360
other people. 
And a lot of folks I work with 

933
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,440
tend to just call it like office
politics, right? 

934
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,280
I don't want to deal with office
politics. 

935
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:34,360
It's like, OK, but what if it's 
not just office politics? 

936
00:54:34,920 --> 00:54:38,520
What if you just dismissing it 
because you don't have the 

937
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:43,000
relevant skill set that will 
help you navigate the people 

938
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:48,600
aspect of your job, right? 
We tend to, as engineers, go so 

939
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,160
deep into technical that 
sometimes hiding behind our 

940
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:56,560
computer is comforting, right? 
Because we know what's 

941
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,880
happening, we know what's going 
on, we can kind of grasp it 

942
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:03,080
intellectually. 
But when we don't have the 

943
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:06,840
equivalent of those skills when 
it comes to relationships with 

944
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:08,880
other people, that can be 
daunting. 

945
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:12,280
And those skills, by the way, if
you don't have them, it's not 

946
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,400
your fault because they're not 
part of the engineering 

947
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:18,520
education. 
Engineers are not being handed a

948
00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:21,960
soft skills playbook. 
It's something that if you're 

949
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:26,720
lucky, you learn from having an 
incredible manager or incredible

950
00:55:26,720 --> 00:55:29,720
teammates. 
But like relying on luck isn't 

951
00:55:29,720 --> 00:55:35,160
the best career strategy. 
So people skills when it comes 

952
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,440
to communication, collaboration,
becoming that master 

953
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:43,560
collaborator is what sets you 
apart and also helps you in a 

954
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:48,520
difficult economy, right? 
Because that's how you become 

955
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:52,720
that highly skilled professional
that people want to hire. 

956
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:57,560
You become the top of the top 
Creme de la Creme because you're

957
00:55:57,560 --> 00:55:59,720
able to effectively work with 
other people. 

958
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:02,240
And many engineers are missing 
out on that. 

959
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:05,160
Yeah, definitely. 
This is one of the common bugs 

960
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:08,320
in many engineers, right? 
Maybe sometimes because of maybe

961
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:11,160
also our interest in the very 
beginning, we would like to talk

962
00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:14,120
to computers, play with just 
computers all by ourselves, 

963
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:16,160
right. 
So we tend to neglect, you know,

964
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,920
the people's soft skills aspect.
But I think as many people have 

965
00:56:19,920 --> 00:56:22,680
learned as well, especially 
those who went into management 

966
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,920
and become leaders, right, Soft 
skills is definitely maybe the 

967
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:29,160
number one priority that you 
should continue honing and 

968
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:32,600
continue upskilling, right? 
Rather than technical so that 

969
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,280
you can actually progress much, 
much more, become master 

970
00:56:35,280 --> 00:56:38,840
collaborator where people would 
like to work a lot more with you

971
00:56:38,840 --> 00:56:40,240
rather than the lone wolf, 
right. 

972
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:43,520
So someone who is like a diva or
you know, like this better star 

973
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,200
that nobody likes. 
So thanks for raising that. 

974
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:48,400
Exactly. 
Yeah, thanks for raising that. 

975
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,440
So unfortunately, we can't cover
the other two blocks, the 

976
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:54,680
imposter syndrome and the self 
marketing or self promotion. 

977
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,760
So I'm sure people can check out
from the book by deck net. 

978
00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,800
So it's available on Amazon and 
wherever you find the books 

979
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,840
from. 
Which brings us to the last 

980
00:57:03,840 --> 00:57:05,480
question that I have for you, 
Dagna. 

981
00:57:06,080 --> 00:57:08,160
I call this the tree technical 
leadership wisdom. 

982
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:11,400
I always ask this from all my 
guests if you can just think of 

983
00:57:11,400 --> 00:57:13,760
them just like an advice that 
you want to give to us. 

984
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,680
Maybe if you can share your 
vision of wisdom so that we can 

985
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:18,360
learn from you. 
Yes. 

986
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:24,080
So the very first one is that 
your brain works just like code,

987
00:57:24,520 --> 00:57:28,640
so you can reprogram whatever is
not working. 

988
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:32,920
The second one, the wisdom that 
I want to leave you with, is to 

989
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:37,680
allow the feedback in, because 
you can't grow without feedback.

990
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:43,840
You need other people in order 
to understand what's holding you

991
00:57:43,840 --> 00:57:45,720
back. 
Because like we talked a moment 

992
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:48,600
ago, right as engineers, we work
with other people, create 

993
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,160
products for their people. 
So that aspect is just 

994
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,840
inescapable. 
And then the third one is if you

995
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:58,640
see people on your team 
struggling in their career right

996
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,360
now, it's most likely that 
they're experiencing one of the 

997
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,880
four bugs we talked about today.
It's either in poster syndrome, 

998
00:58:07,200 --> 00:58:10,320
burnout, they have trouble 
dealing with other people, or 

999
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:12,120
they have self marketing 
struggles. 

1000
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:18,240
And by understanding what's the 
exact programming in their case 

1001
00:58:18,240 --> 00:58:22,200
that might be holding them back,
you'll be able to help your 

1002
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,720
teammates advance in their 
career as a leader. 

1003
00:58:25,840 --> 00:58:29,160
So these are the three wisdom 
that I would love to leave you 

1004
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:34,640
with and I would love to connect
with you guys on LinkedIn or 

1005
00:58:34,640 --> 00:58:37,920
through my website. 
And of course, we did do a deep 

1006
00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:41,040
dive today on my book Brain 
Refactor. 

1007
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:44,320
But if you want to know more, 
get more details. 

1008
00:58:44,800 --> 00:58:48,000
Just like Henry said, feel free 
to grab it off of Amazon or you 

1009
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:51,440
can find it on my website, 
themindfuldeath.com in the top 

1010
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,840
book, which has the link to 
Amazon. 

1011
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:58,400
And if you do read it, I would 
love to hear your feedback. 

1012
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:01,480
I would love to hear what 
resonated, what didn't, and talk

1013
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,360
about the book. 
Fantastic. 

1014
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,920
So for those listeners who are 
interested in this concept of 

1015
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,760
brain refractor and you kind of 
like can relate to what Deckner 

1016
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,120
has mentioned earlier about her 
experience and some of the 

1017
00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,200
strategies that we can choose in
order to refactor some parts of 

1018
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:17,960
our legacy code, please do reach
out to Deckner, right? 

1019
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:20,720
So you can find out on LinkedIn.
We'll put that all in the show 

1020
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:22,240
notes. 
So thank you so much for your 

1021
00:59:22,240 --> 00:59:24,640
time today, Deckner. 
I feel like I am refactoring my 

1022
00:59:24,640 --> 00:59:27,000
brain now with some of these 
common bugs that I have. 

1023
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:30,480
So thank you again for pointing 
out good strategy practical tips

1024
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:32,280
for us. 
Absolutely. 

1025
00:59:32,280 --> 00:59:34,000
My pleasure. 
Thanks for having me.