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When I think about well-crafted 
software is called that we are 

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not scared to change the code 
clearly specifies. 

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What it does. 
When we change one part of me. 

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Don't break the other. 
You always feel that you are in 

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control. 
You are controlling the codes, 

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not the other way around. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya be Robin.
And you're listening to the 

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00:00:26,100 --> 00:00:29,900
tekhelet Juno, the show will be 
bringing you the greatest 

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00:00:29,900 --> 00:00:33,700
technical leaders practitioners 
and thought leaders in the 

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00:00:33,700 --> 00:00:38,600
industry to discuss about their 
Journey ideas and practices that

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we all can learn and apply to 
build a highly performing 

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technical team and to make an 
impact in your personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hello. 

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Hello. 
My friends. 

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00:00:54,600 --> 00:00:57,900
It's always great to be back 
here again with a new episode of

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00:00:57,900 --> 00:01:01,400
the tekhelet journal podcast. 
I'm your host, Henry Surya. 

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00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,800
We do one, as always. 
Thank you for spending your time

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with me today, listening to this
episode. 

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If you haven't subscribe to the 
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seconds right now. 
To subscribe to the tekhelet 

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Podcast on your favorite 

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Also do check out technology. 

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LinkedIn Twitter and Instagram 

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Help me towards achieving the 
goals that I'm currently running

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for the show. 
For today's episode. 

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I am happy to share my 
conversation with Sandro 

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Mancuso. 
Sandro is the author of the 

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software Craftsman book and the 
co-founder of code Durance in 

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this episode Sandra. 
Ow, shared his great insights on

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how developers and Engineers can
become a software Craftsman by 

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adopting. 
The professionalism pragmatism 

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and pride mindset in order to 
achieve higher levels of 

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technical Excellence. 
We started off our discussion 

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with Sandro's career Journey, 
how he adopted the software 

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craftsmanship mindset in his 
career and started the London 

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software, craftsmanship 
Community. 

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We then dive deep into 
discussing about software, 

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craftsmanship. 
It relates to Agile and the 

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other software movements, and 
Sandra also shared his 

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definition of a well-crafted 
software and the importance of 

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why, we should always aspire to 
build a well-crafted software. 

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We then move to discuss his 
latest work on software 

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modernization. 
And some of the principles 

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behind a successful 
modernization Journey including 

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some of the valid business 
drivers and common impediments 

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of a software modernization 
effort. 

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In the end Sandro. 
Again re-emphasize, the 

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importance of pragmatism for us,
technology practitioners and 

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shared a few things on how we 
can improve our pragmatism in 

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our career. 
Personally, as an engineer at 

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heart, software craftsmanship is
an important mindset. 

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That I think every engineer 
needs to adopt when building 

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software either at work or 
personal project. 

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It is one of the most important 
and distinguishing attributes 

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that separate great engineer. 
From the rest. 

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I also highly encourage you to 
read Saint Joe's book. 

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The software Craftsman, which I 
find highly insightful, a fun to

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read with. 
Lots of practical tips that you 

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can adopt straight away to 
improve your craft. 

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I hope you will enjoy this 
episode. 

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00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:14,200
And if you like it, consider 
helping the show by leaving a 

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rating review or comment on your
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channel, those reviews and 
comments are one of the best 

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ways to get this. 
Has to reach more listeners and 

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hopefully they can also benefit 
from the contents in this 

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00:04:28,300 --> 00:04:31,300
podcast. 
So let's get the episode started

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Hey everyone, welcome back to 
another show of the techniques. 

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You know. 
Today. 

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I have a special guest with me. 
His name is Sandro Mancuso. 

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He is a person who is well known
about software craftsmanship. 

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In fact, he wrote a book about 
it. 

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The software craftsmanship. 
I think he was in 2015 if I'm 

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not wrong. 
So again, very pleased to meet 

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Sandra today Sandra welcome to 
the show. 

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Hi, Harry. 
Thanks for having me. 

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It's a pleasure to meet you. 
So Sandra to start with, 

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normally I would ask the 
courage, any of my guests. 

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So can you share with us maybe 
some of the highlights of 

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turning points in your career? 
So I started my career about 

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trying t. 
Five years ago. 

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I started in Brazil, I grew up 
in the middle of nowhere in 

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Brazil and it was a very long 
journey from where I was born. 

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And where I grew up to where I 
am. 

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Now, today. 
I live in London. 

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I have my own company. 
So that was a very long journey.

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Ernie in there. 
I think that I can share the 

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things that I've judged 
important from these Journey 

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coming from a very remote place 
in a country. 

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That is not very well known for 
technology to what I am 

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actually. 
So, one was Drive. 

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I really wanted to make sure 
that I would be good enough to 

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work in good conference. 
So I always try to find good 

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companies. 
When I was able to find a very 

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good company. 
I was also trying to find the 

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right place in that company's. 
Well, it's also fine for 

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everyone. 
Wants to be in a good company 

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wants to be in the good teams. 
But one thing that I realized 

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very soon is what do I bring to 
the table? 

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It's fine for me to say like 
yes, everyone wants a good job. 

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Everyone was to be part of a 
great team and stuff. 

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But what do you offer to that? 
Great team to death great 

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company, so that kind of mindset
was very important for me since 

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the beginning. 
I really felt that in order for 

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me to have a chance and compete 
with people that had a much 

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better education that studied in
their place. 

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This isn't came from bigger 
cities. 

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I would need to work much harder
in order to compete and I didn't

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treat that as a fairness on 
anything is just how life is so 

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I can cry about it. 
What I can do something about 

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it. 
So I salute you do something 

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about it. 
So, this was the mindset that I 

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had throughout my career. 
I also met a few important 

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people. 
In my career, people that 

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Inspire, I saw how they were. 
So I trying to surround myself 

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from people that were an 
inspiration to me. 

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And I don't want to say 
successful, because success, we 

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would need to Define what 
Sesame. 

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And that means different things 
to different people. 

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I surrounded myself of people 
that I was inspired by, so I 

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always try to get closer to 
those people. 

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And that doesn't mean famous 
people within every 

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organization. 
There are people that you look 

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at, it's like, wow, this person 
here is very interesting. 

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I admire her knowledge or where 
she is and stuff. 

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So I always try to be closer to 
those people and stuff. 

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Thanks through one of my majors 
are even describe that in my 

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book. 
He was a very important person 

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and he made me realize that I 
he's not as good as I thought it

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was and I had to work hard and 
be humble. 

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So, for me, it was a very 
important relationship. 

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Another thing that was important
for me words to be in the right 

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place as well. 
It's fine to be as good as you 

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want to be but being the right 
place helps. 

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So for example, moving to London
was probably one of the most 

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important things that happened 
in my career. 

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This was my dream. 
I wanted to go to London, but 

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for example, if I was doing the 
things that I'm doing in London,

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if I was doing in the middle of 
nowhere in Brazil, I would not 

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have The career progression, I 
had. 

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So being the right place 
surrounded by the right, people 

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also helps you with your career.
And I said, London is a great 

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place for be, of course, across 
the world that are many other 

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great places to be. 
But certainly when I came from 

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was not one of them and then 
again competing in London or 

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competing in Singapore in New 
York or in California. 

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It's not easy, right? 
So there's a lot of very smart 

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people well-educated people. 
So you need to bring your game. 

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You need to make sure that you 
are aware. 

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So yes. 
Spend nights and weekends and 

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holidays. 
Everything is studying and 

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trying to be as good as you can.
How can you come to love and 

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then compete with people coming 
from Oxford from Cambridge? 

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When you had a very poor 
education, you just need to put 

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more effort to work hard. 
That's how it works. 

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Another thing was be involved 
with communities, that 

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communities. 
I think that this is another 

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huge part of my career. 
Probably one of the biggest the 

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moving to London was the 
biggest, but also, as soon as I 

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arrived, I immediately got 
involved with the local 

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community. 
Inches because with the 

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communities, you'll find a lot 
of very passionate people that 

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are changing the industry people
that are passionate. 

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They're creating Frameworks. 
They're creating different ways 

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of working their debates. 
They state of the industry and 

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trying to improve this state of 
things. 

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And so for me that initial 
Connection in London was very 

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important. 
And as I was part of some 

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communities, I felt that there 
was something missing in the 

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communities here and that's when
I came across off the 

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00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:50,400
craftsmanship. 
So I had been following Uncle 

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00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:53,100
Bob Auerbach marketing for a 
very long time. 

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00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:55,100
All the extreme programming 
people. 

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00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,100
Fowler. 
Most of people inspired my 

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00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:59,900
career and I try to get closer 
to them. 

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00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:02,900
I also felt that we didn't have 
a software, craftsmanship 

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00:10:02,900 --> 00:10:04,900
Community here. 
So I created one. 

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00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,700
This is another thing, like so 
you don't complain when certain 

200
00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:09,700
things are not happening. 
You just go and do it. 

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00:10:09,700 --> 00:10:13,200
So if something doesn't exist, 
you to go to create, so being 

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00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,200
part of communes, and then, 
later on create in the cross 

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00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:18,600
machine community in London, 
which was the first in Europe, 

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00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,500
was massive because it allowed 
me to meet a lot of interesting 

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00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:25,400
people. 
But most importantly, I always 

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00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:29,300
say that we are limited by our 
own ignorance, right? 

207
00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:33,100
I'm limited by my words. 
I cannot go beyond my own 

208
00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:35,800
ignorance on my own. 
It's a very slow process. 

209
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,600
But if I want to go beyond my 
ignorance, I need to collaborate

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00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,600
with people. 
I need to talk to people need to

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00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,500
understand what they know in 
absorbed. 

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00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:46,500
That's how we go beyond your own
ignorance and communities, give 

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00:10:46,500 --> 00:10:48,400
you that. 
So that was important. 

214
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,200
And then there were two other 
things that were important, what

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00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,000
you do for companies where we 
have a good life. 

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00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:56,300
Diversity of work but still 
workers and employers. 

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00:10:56,300 --> 00:11:00,500
So I work for consultancies most
of my career that gave me a huge

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00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:03,300
exposure to many different 
projects and companies and 

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00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:06,700
Technologies, but still working 
for similar companies. 

220
00:11:06,700 --> 00:11:09,900
And so that was good for me. 
And, of course, the latest thing

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00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:13,000
that was for me, the biggest 
turning point was creating my 

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00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,700
own company, that completely 
changed my perspective of 

223
00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:18,200
everything because it's very 
easy for you as an employee. 

224
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,200
To be complaining about things. 
You complain about your manager,

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00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:24,100
that is not good. 
So for me as it is, Everyone was

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00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:25,100
not good. 
Right? 

227
00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:27,700
So just developers were good. 
But manager was rude. 

228
00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:30,400
I can understand what those guys
were doing. 

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00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,900
Running that company. 
How they could not see such a 

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00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,600
problems, but I never looked 
from their perspective. 

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00:11:36,900 --> 00:11:40,100
So creating my own company made 
me look at it from different 

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perspectives because now my own 
money. 

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So now, like, I don't have a 
boss or I don't have a manager 

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to complain about if some things
are not working. 

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It's my fault. 
There's no one else that I can 

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blame. 
I am the one paying the salaries

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now, so that gives you a 
completely different 

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perspective. 
When approached those bags with 

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a client is not happy. 
I'm the one to deal with that. 

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I'm the one to blame for that. 
So these gives you a completely 

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different perspective. 
So those were for me, important 

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things in my career, there 
really helped me to grow as a 

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profession. 
Thanks for sharing that it's 

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been a very wonderful Journey. 
From Brazil went to London, 

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started a community, the London 
software, craftsmanship, Meetup 

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group, and then, including 
writing the book which you 

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haven't mentioned and also 
starting your own company, so 

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Maybe you can tell us a little 
bit more about coder, ins your 

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own company. 
What does coherence do? 

250
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So we are software consultancy 
company and we help clients to 

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build software and to lean on 
modernizing our software as 

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well. 
So what we try to do with could 

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you not see state that Community
spirit that group of people 

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passionate about softer and 
create a company with those 

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values? 
So could you know, seized 

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private or well-structured 
Community? 

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It is founded by developers, run
by developers of The 

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craftsmanship at its heart. 
Like most of the things I wrote 

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in my book. 
They are the code units. 

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DNA. 
So, basically, that's what we 

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do. 
We have today 100 people. 

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We have three officers and we 
work with a variety of clients, 

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in different projects, trying to
bring across machine and build 

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well-crafted software portals 
clients. 

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I know that you have written a 
book about it, but for those of 

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the listeners, who haven't heard
about software craftsmanship, 

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can you probably help to Define?
What do you think is software 

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craftsmanship? 
So it's very difficult to 

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Define. 
Our friendship. 

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I think I offer like 34 
different. 

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Definitions depend on which 
context. 

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Dependent which perspective on 
come from. 

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If you have to try to find for 
me, sort across the shapes of 

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Elf professionalism software 
development, but this is a very 

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vague definition because we need
to Define professionalism style.

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So by definition, like everyone 
that is paid to do. 

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A job is a professional so that 
doesn't help much for me. 

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We need to go a bit deeper, the 
history of craftsmanship, starts

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with the history of agile. 
For those of us that stuck in 

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the 90s. 
We were in a bad place. 

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Place, the internet emerging 
mid-90s, and everyone was trying

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to figure out how to do software
software became cheaper. 

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Because before the night is 
softer, was a very expensive 

284
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Hardware was expensive and 
stuff. 

285
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So all of a sudden with the PC 
and internet structure was 

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everywhere, software was growing
to a degree that was 

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unimaginable before. 
But with that, we have also a 

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very amateur industry, a very 
young and a mature industry. 

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00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,800
Well, we were trying to apply 
over the waterfall or a very 

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00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:25,600
strict engineering work. 
So agile came along and brought 

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a different way of working that 
was more appropriate for the 

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vast majority of the software 
project being created in the 

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late 90s early 2000s. 
Most of us were extremely 

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excited to be larger. 
I was massively excited because 

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00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:42,800
I leave the pre agile area. 
You should give some background 

296
00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,700
as a single thing. 
But Johnny's for the umbrella of

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00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:48,100
methodologies, like the way I 
summarize it. 

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Our duty is shortening the 
feedback loop and as you shorten

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your feedback loop, you get more
information. 

300
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Or more often and then with that
information, you want that? 

301
00:14:56,200 --> 00:14:57,600
What you were doing? 
That's for me. 

302
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,800
That's how I summarize our job. 
And then there are multiple 

303
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,400
methodologies. 
Mean they're like from scrum 

304
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:06,200
which are driven development to 
Kris told you extreme 

305
00:15:06,200 --> 00:15:10,000
programming and priest was like,
the pragmatic programmers guys. 

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00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:13,500
So there are quite a few things 
that together, they formed their

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00:15:13,500 --> 00:15:15,900
job. 
So I joined started as a 

308
00:15:15,908 --> 00:15:20,300
developer's movement and we were
all massively excited and one of

309
00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:22,900
the key things were developers 
will be closed for business. 

310
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,300
And we would work in a short 
fast pace and it was also very 

311
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focused on the technology and 
pieces working together. 

312
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And so on. 
So there was a blessing and a 

313
00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:35,400
curse at the same time, from one
of the agile methodologies 

314
00:15:35,700 --> 00:15:39,300
became massively popular, and 
that was good for agile because 

315
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:41,600
it's crammed helped. 
A judge should be disseminated 

316
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:44,600
across the world, but ice cream 
is also more. 

317
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,000
Digestible were more appealing 
to managers, most technical deep

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00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,600
and I anticipate extreme 
programming was not Slowing the 

319
00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,000
growth of scrum. 
So agile start growing but not 

320
00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:01,000
in a unified way. 
It's crown and the process side 

321
00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,900
of agile, grew way faster than 
the technical side of her job. 

322
00:16:05,100 --> 00:16:08,500
And that creates the friction 
within their Joy of Founders, 

323
00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:11,200
the 17 guys. 
So even they themselves had 

324
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,700
issues and people like myself 
that came from stronger 

325
00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,400
technical background that was 
more focused on the extreme 

326
00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:19,600
programming side, that life 
described. 

327
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,300
I like all the other 
methodologies, so I'm not here 

328
00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:24,600
to say that. 
About scrum or any other thing, 

329
00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:27,500
but the technical side was left 
behind. 

330
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:30,500
And what agile? 
We came a few years later was 

331
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not what that original group. 
Attended. 

332
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,300
Our joy of today is seen, as 
well. 

333
00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:38,100
As a management is a way to 
manage project, is a way to 

334
00:16:38,100 --> 00:16:41,000
manage people to have him back 
in terms of the business, but 

335
00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,900
it's not technical. 
The reason I'm saying that is 

336
00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:47,600
because this is key to justify. 
Why software craftsmanship 

337
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,900
exist, software craftsmanship, 
was a reaction to the evolution 

338
00:16:51,900 --> 00:16:54,400
of our job. 
So we started with Robert 

339
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,100
Martin, where Bob Martin or 
Uncle Bob as most people know 

340
00:16:57,100 --> 00:16:59,500
him and a few others, including 
myself. 

341
00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:02,900
We would have disappointed. 
So the Mosin need to try to 

342
00:17:02,900 --> 00:17:05,599
restore the balance. 
You bring those technical 

343
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:08,599
practices back into agile 
software. 

344
00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,000
Craftsmanship was born as a 
movement in Chicago, and I was 

345
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,200
the first one to bring them to 
Europe in terms of a community. 

346
00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:18,099
There were other people, like 
Jason warm on Ricky calm. 

347
00:17:18,099 --> 00:17:20,500
A few other people were talking 
about prosthetic, but I was the 

348
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:23,000
first one to actually create a 
community instead. 

349
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,900
Sharing those engines, start, 
one of the things, the salt 

350
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:29,200
across the street movement was 
trying to do is, first of all, 

351
00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:32,600
bring the extreme programming. 
In terms of agile practices. 

352
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:35,800
We like all data practices, but 
the one that we value the most 

353
00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,200
is Extreme program. 
So that was one side, but that's

354
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,900
more on the practice side. 
What's craftsmanship also 

355
00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:45,200
brought to the table was, what I
was saying, now back into the 

356
00:17:45,200 --> 00:17:48,900
professionalism and pride. 
So he's making sure that you as 

357
00:17:48,900 --> 00:17:50,700
a developer. 
You should be proud of what you 

358
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:52,800
do. 
We are all contributing to the 

359
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:53,300
world. 
World. 

360
00:17:53,300 --> 00:17:54,700
We can look at the world today 
in. 

361
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:57,700
Look at 25 years ago. 
We didn't even have internet, 

362
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:00,600
but they would just go to our 
phone and you buy food at 3:00 

363
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,900
in the morning. 
This didn't exist in the past 

364
00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:06,000
and we created that. 
So the sense of being proud of 

365
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,600
being a developer, being a 
developer doesn't career instead

366
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:11,300
of just for a few years and then
move to management. 

367
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:14,700
I'm a developer by Heart by 
trade and I want to progress to 

368
00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:16,200
develop. 
So this was important. 

369
00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,300
And then another thing that for 
me was part, of course, my ship 

370
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:22,600
is what we call the career 
ownership, you own your career 

371
00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:25,500
in it. 
Don't let companies or people to

372
00:18:25,500 --> 00:18:27,400
dictate what you learn when you 
learn. 

373
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,300
So like this is me. 
This is my career. 

374
00:18:29,300 --> 00:18:31,500
This is my future. 
I should only partially 

375
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:33,900
investment. 
So those are the things for me 

376
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:35,700
professionally, pragmatism 
price. 

377
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:38,600
As I say in my book. 
Those are for me, the mindset of

378
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,800
software craftsmanship. 
That's what property brings to 

379
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,200
the table. 
And in terms of technical 

380
00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:44,700
practice. 
We like quite a few extreme 

381
00:18:44,700 --> 00:18:47,200
programming being the main ones,
but we like the main reasons. 

382
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,500
I really like microservices, 
hexagonal, architectures are 

383
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:52,400
many things to be like, but 
there is the mindset and the 

384
00:18:52,408 --> 00:18:54,000
receptor Actresses, their 
separate. 

385
00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,700
Think it's pretty clear. 
It's a beautiful explanation. 

386
00:18:56,700 --> 00:18:59,500
I like the way that you brought 
up the history, why it was 

387
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:03,200
initially born because for those
young enough to know about a gel

388
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,600
and software craftsmanship 
itself. 

389
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:08,500
We didn't probably know much 
about why agile was born. 

390
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,000
And then there was this scrum, 
it becomes popular. 

391
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:13,500
And now it becomes a little bit 
of backlash towards Crown 

392
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:16,100
because of the management and 
the processes behind it. 

393
00:19:16,100 --> 00:19:18,800
And why we need another one, 
which is called the software 

394
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,600
craftsmanship, towards more 
technical practices and 

395
00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:24,200
pragmatism. 
I also So that's this software, 

396
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,500
craftsmanship, Manifesto. 
I don't know who wrote that is. 

397
00:19:27,500 --> 00:19:30,800
That also part of the principles
behind software, craftsmanship. 

398
00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:35,600
So my first song was written by 
some of the guys from a flight 

399
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:37,600
to the guys that really started 
at moving. 

400
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,100
These cargo based company where 
Uncle Bob was involved back. 

401
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:43,500
Then, one of the founders was 
his son. 

402
00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,200
Michael, Marty. 
And those guys with Uncle, Bob 

403
00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:49,500
called a bunch of people when 
they were defined, this of the 

404
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:51,200
craftsmanship. 
They felt that they needed a 

405
00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,400
Manifesto for those of you. 
That don't know the agile. 

406
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,100
Manifesto. 
That was great in 2001, Uncle 

407
00:19:57,100 --> 00:20:00,400
Bob with Alistair cockburn. 
And Martin Fowler. 

408
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:03,900
They together, put a list of 
people that they invited. 

409
00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:07,900
Like I think there were 25 
people but only 17 were able to 

410
00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:09,500
make it. 
So they went to a ski resort in 

411
00:20:09,508 --> 00:20:12,100
Utah. 
And after two and a half days, 

412
00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:16,300
they end up with their giant 
seven years later in Chicago, 

413
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,500
because Bob was part of the 
original one. 

414
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:21,600
He was the one that helped to 
create a delusional manifest as 

415
00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:22,900
they were trying to make a 
point. 

416
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:26,200
So, across machines became 
almost as a reactionary 

417
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,100
movement. 
You really try to make a point 

418
00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:29,800
and poker Jai repeat at the 
beginning. 

419
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:31,500
In the beginning. 
There was that friction between 

420
00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:33,800
craftsmanship and agile. 
The same way that we had with 

421
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,100
lean. 
So lean agile, craftsmanship as 

422
00:20:36,100 --> 00:20:39,700
they emerged as movement. 
They were all having bickering 

423
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:43,300
with each other, but they felt 
that there was a need to evolve 

424
00:20:43,300 --> 00:20:45,000
a job. 
So if you look at the cross 

425
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,100
machine, 21st it built on top of
that, diary takes their giant 

426
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:50,400
money faster than goes one step 
further. 

427
00:20:50,700 --> 00:20:54,900
I felt that if you take the We 
into account when that happened.

428
00:20:54,900 --> 00:20:57,600
That was the right thing to do. 
Because we needed something that

429
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:01,000
was strong, that would question.
They stay crisp or then we 

430
00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:02,900
question the direction of our 
job. 

431
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,300
So there was a need for our 
betterment, Festival that 

432
00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:09,300
Express the values. 
So, for example, we not only 

433
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:11,400
working software but 
well-crafted Soldier. 

434
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,000
So for me, we are making a 
statement because working 

435
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,000
software, it was an evolution 
back then. 

436
00:21:16,100 --> 00:21:18,500
Because I think they say not 
only documentation but also 

437
00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:19,800
working softer, something like 
that. 

438
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,100
And we said, okay, it's not only
working software. 

439
00:21:22,100 --> 00:21:24,500
We have everywhere. 
If I want to every company today

440
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:28,500
and see those Abominations, 
those huge horrible codebase, 

441
00:21:28,700 --> 00:21:33,300
they work somehow. 
So we want more so not only work

442
00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:35,500
by well-crafted and then we have
a few other things. 

443
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:38,100
Like I study on volume. 
We brought the Collegiate 

444
00:21:38,100 --> 00:21:40,800
professionals. 
But again, it is a different 

445
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:44,700
historical moment as well. 
Agile was trying to make a clear

446
00:21:44,700 --> 00:21:48,400
distinction between what we had 
before before it was waterfall. 

447
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:51,200
Well structure separation of 
Business and Technology 

448
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,300
separation of requirements and 
Elopement and Analysis and 

449
00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:56,900
architecture and testing 
everything was separate. 

450
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,000
So the German festival was 
fixing that problem. 

451
00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:04,500
So we were now just taking what 
agile fixed and the phone. 

452
00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:06,900
So then we talked about the 
convention professions and 

453
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:09,600
productive Partnerships. 
But again, I think that it was 

454
00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,700
important have the manifesto 
that expressed what the movement

455
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:16,300
was about. 
But as we always evolved, I feel

456
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:19,600
that the cross-ownership 
manifesto is important but not 

457
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,800
as important as it was, the 
giant manifest for the Giants. 

458
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,600
What's been really clear 
distinction of what we had 

459
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,000
before. 
And what we had up the 

460
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,900
craftsmanship, just build a 
little bit on top and now I see 

461
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:33,800
a giant lean cross for sheet. 
And we had a few New Movement. 

462
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:35,700
You can take devops as another 
one. 

463
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,000
They all understand where they 
sit and how they all contribute 

464
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,100
to the same goal. 
But I think that we are all in 

465
00:22:42,100 --> 00:22:44,900
good terms. 
Now, answer, you met a couple of

466
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:47,000
times about well-crafted 
software. 

467
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:50,500
What is a well-crafted software 
some questions. 

468
00:22:50,500 --> 00:22:55,200
So I would really hate to give 
any He very specific definition 

469
00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,500
of that and I'll explain why. 
Because as soon as you try to 

470
00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:02,800
make a very precise definition, 
you stifle Innovation, but there

471
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:05,200
are certain things that Army 
general principles are 

472
00:23:05,208 --> 00:23:07,700
important. 
For example, scope that we are 

473
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,400
not scared to change. 
I would love to go to my code 

474
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:15,100
base and be comfortable not only
myself but any new developer 

475
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:18,000
that comes in there. 
As soon as they come in the code

476
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,500
clearly specifies, what it does.
There's a good match between the

477
00:23:21,500 --> 00:23:24,200
the technical implementation. 
And the business requirements we

478
00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,000
can see like July. 
So for this something 

479
00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,000
domain-driven design brains very
well, the ubiquitous language 

480
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,600
the main Mario and contacts, and
all that. 

481
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,700
Good knowledge. 
So for me, this is one aspect as

482
00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:38,600
I speak to mine to the business.
People being product owners or 

483
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,500
whoever they are business 
analysts. 

484
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,800
I can see those conversations 
that terminology in the code is 

485
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,200
very clear. 
When we change one part of me. 

486
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,800
Don't break the other so that 
comes into coupling and cohesion

487
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:52,800
at all levels, like, from the 
very low level. 

488
00:23:52,900 --> 00:23:56,100
Love a function of the class. 
But all the way up to services 

489
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:57,600
in again, in domain driven 
design. 

490
00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,900
We talk about bounded context 
and things like that. 

491
00:23:59,900 --> 00:24:03,300
So that clear code organization 
that match the business 

492
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,400
testable. 
Nothing gives you more 

493
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,000
confidence than making a change.
Pressing a button. 

494
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,300
In a few seconds. 
You have a green bar with a red 

495
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:14,300
bar and when you have a red bar,
you know exactly know precisely 

496
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,900
what was broken. 
This way of working for me is 

497
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:19,900
amazing. 
It makes you happy and you 

498
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:21,700
always hear that you are in 
control. 

499
00:24:22,100 --> 00:24:24,200
You are. 
Nicole's not the other way 

500
00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:26,700
around. 
And I remember, for example, one

501
00:24:26,700 --> 00:24:29,900
of the key things that was part 
of the interview process. 

502
00:24:29,900 --> 00:24:33,600
When I start my career was how 
well we knew our debugging 

503
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,400
tools, because debugging was a 
very important thing. 

504
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,900
That's how we found B, how you 
fix stuff. 

505
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,400
I cannot even remember, last 
time I had to debug a piece of 

506
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:44,500
code, but is not in the code 
that we start writing ourselves.

507
00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:46,700
If you are dealing with 
legacies, of course, you need to

508
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:49,400
debug in understand a few 
things, but see for me like 

509
00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,700
those are aspects that 
confidence that procedures. 

510
00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:56,100
Should should get on with your 
job without being blocked by the

511
00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:58,800
code itself from. 
He's an aspect of well-crafted 

512
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,400
coat, the new developer should 
learn the code very fast, the 

513
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,900
speed of our new developer, 
joining the organization, 

514
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:07,700
assuming that they understand 
the technology itself with that,

515
00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:10,200
understand how fast. 
They pick up the code base, 

516
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,600
that's for me, an aspect of 
well-crafted code. 

517
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,800
So those for me are more general
terms. 

518
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:17,500
Now, I'm a preferred to be at 
that level. 

519
00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:21,900
If you go choose specific. 
I think that we will be stifling

520
00:25:21,900 --> 00:25:24,800
creativity. 
I'm actually old enough to play 

521
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,900
around with debugging tools as I
still remember those days. 

522
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,900
I like the definition of in 
control that you mentioned. 

523
00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:33,700
So it's like we are always in 
the control and we are not like 

524
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,600
scared touching the code or even
looking and reading the code 

525
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,300
base. 
It's like sometimes there's this

526
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:41,300
part of some Legacy code base. 
Nobody really wants to read and 

527
00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:44,600
it's like probably long and 
super tedious and super complex.

528
00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:47,000
So yeah, I can understand and I 
like the definition of in 

529
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,200
control. 
So for those people, for those 

530
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:52,400
developers who are new to the 
industry or who are still 

531
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,800
probably I think what would be 
your advice to start with this 

532
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,300
software craftsmanship? 
Because one of the problem I see

533
00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:01,500
in the industry is that in the 
company not every company 

534
00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:03,700
Advocates. 
This as part of their probably, 

535
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:06,800
you know, like what conduct or 
maybe professionalism conduct. 

536
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,200
So for those developers, how can
they start adopting this 

537
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,100
craftsmanship mindset? 
First of all, we need to 

538
00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:16,600
distinguish the mindset of a 
softer cross person. 

539
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,000
So today, we normally, like, you
suffer cross brush across people

540
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,500
as a general term, but like when
I refer to myself a call, Men, 

541
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,000
so for me, there is a mindset of
across person and there are the 

542
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,400
technical practices and they are
not the same thing. 

543
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:31,800
In fact, they are very different
things. 

544
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,100
So when you say for someone to 
start with that, we start with 

545
00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:38,500
the mindset, it's completely up 
to the individual. 

546
00:26:38,500 --> 00:26:42,800
There's absolutely nothing. 
Nothing blocking you, there's no

547
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,200
company. 
No one that will block how you 

548
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,900
think how you behave. 
So these anyone can 

549
00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:52,900
strategically is like owning 
your career trying to be as good

550
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:56,400
as You can be feel good about 
the profession that you have. 

551
00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:58,900
This is our thing that I always 
talk about. 

552
00:26:58,900 --> 00:27:00,100
For me. 
There is a difference between 

553
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:02,400
having a professional having a 
job for me. 

554
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,500
This is significantly different.
Our job is something that you 

555
00:27:05,500 --> 00:27:07,900
do. 
Go your paid for into a 

556
00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,500
profession is part of who you 
are is not a separate entity. 

557
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,600
When I say like, I am also 
crossed when it's part of what I

558
00:27:14,608 --> 00:27:15,900
am. 
I am a software developer. 

559
00:27:15,900 --> 00:27:18,200
If you don't like the soccer 
custom software developer 

560
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,200
program or whatever you call it,
but it's part of who you are. 

561
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:25,600
I'm a doctor, an engineer and 
Lawyer is part of you, you are 

562
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,600
getting. 
This is a profession. 

563
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:30,500
I work for certain company. 
That's a job. 

564
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:33,400
And these for me is an important
distinction for me. 

565
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:37,600
The mindset of our stuff across 
person is having a profession. 

566
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:40,200
He's making sure there is part 
of who you are. 

567
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,000
And even when it's part of who 
you are, you want it to be good.

568
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:48,500
You don't want a part of you to 
suck to be bent towards that 

569
00:27:48,500 --> 00:27:51,200
were not proud of. 
So when it's part of you you 

570
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,300
wanted to be good. 
You want to Probably about that.

571
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,000
So that's the mindset of across 
person. 

572
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:58,400
These can you can start to meet 
you. 

573
00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:02,500
Now, there's a completely 
separate conversation is how do 

574
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:06,300
I bring certain practices or 
even the mindset should 

575
00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:09,700
organizations that I work for 
and that's a very different 

576
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,700
conversation and here there are 
many different kinds of advice 

577
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:16,300
is because the device will also 
vary according to the context 

578
00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:18,300
that you're running. 
But there is some general 

579
00:28:18,300 --> 00:28:21,600
advice, a question that I cannot
even imagine how many times I 

580
00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:26,200
was asked was Like how can I 
convince my team or my manager 

581
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,200
or my organization or whoever to
do tdd? 

582
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,600
I cannot even count. 
How many times I was asked this 

583
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,500
question. 
So here, the important thing is 

584
00:28:33,500 --> 00:28:36,300
not the TD. 
B is, how do you convince 

585
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:39,400
someone to do something? 
That is really, the key thing is

586
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800
all about it is about anything. 
So then you need to think about,

587
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,600
first of all, put yourself in 
someone else's position. 

588
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,700
So let's say I come to you and 
say, hey, harry, you know, 

589
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:52,200
everything you've been doing in 
the past, for the past, whatever

590
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:53,900
country to you. 
They're being history. 

591
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:55,600
Yeah, you've got it wrong. 
Henry. 

592
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,500
You don't work. 
Well, you are not professional 

593
00:28:57,500 --> 00:29:00,900
Henry, you need to do what I do.
I don't know how you would react

594
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:02,300
to that. 
But if you were telling that to 

595
00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:06,000
me, I would be very upset and I 
was certainly not listen to you 

596
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,300
at all. 
I would probably be quite rude 

597
00:29:08,300 --> 00:29:12,100
to you and this is the problem 
because some developers that 

598
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:15,200
they say, I want to convince 
other people to do something, 

599
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:18,700
they come in with an attitude. 
They come in with an attitude 

600
00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:21,900
that they are better than 
everyone else, that everyone 

601
00:29:21,900 --> 00:29:24,200
don't do things. 
Because Cuz they are stupid, or 

602
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:27,800
they haven't seen the light as 
they, and these kind of attitude

603
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,300
will never allow me to drive 
technical change. 

604
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,500
So for me is all about if I want
you to drive some technical 

605
00:29:33,500 --> 00:29:35,300
change. 
First of all, let's make sure 

606
00:29:35,300 --> 00:29:38,400
that I'm good at it that I can 
lead by example, because my 

607
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,400
first time I've seen attempts 
where people said, no, I want 

608
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,500
our team to do TG and then 
someone else. 

609
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:46,000
Okay, so can you show us in our 
real code base? 

610
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:49,100
And the person was massively 
slower could not do that thing 

611
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:51,100
properly. 
Okay, you are asking me to 

612
00:29:51,100 --> 00:29:52,800
change the way I work, which I 
feel good. 

613
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:56,000
Active to do something that you 
yourself cannot do. 

614
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,300
Well, it's not going. 
So, first of all, try to be good

615
00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:02,900
at what you are proposing. 
And then going there, not to 

616
00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:06,800
talk about easy because in these
are solution to a problem, a lot

617
00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:09,100
of the times that we're driving 
that can go change. 

618
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:12,600
We want to convince people to 
adopt a solution that they might

619
00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:14,900
not understand what problems 
they're solving. 

620
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:17,700
And I think that this is where 
we should come from. 

621
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,400
So first of all, help people to 
understand, do we have a problem

622
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:23,900
here? 
That this Signature proposes, a 

623
00:30:23,908 --> 00:30:27,600
solution for, and then take 
people on a journey with you. 

624
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,300
So now, let's be greedy. 
I can be nice products. 

625
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:33,800
We can even break anything or 
speed up our delivery life 

626
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:35,700
cycle. 
So be able to release more 

627
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:39,600
often, or not find bugs way down
the line and then we have to 

628
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,700
rework those things a month 
later that we thought we were 

629
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:45,300
done. 
So as we start discussing those 

630
00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:48,600
kind of issues, there is a lot, 
how can you prevent those things

631
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,600
around? 
Maybe we could write about later

632
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:52,000
test. 
Okay. 

633
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,600
That sounds a good. 
You should you write that before

634
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,800
or after we go to code. 
Well, that's not reconcile. 

635
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,500
Malaysian Pastor starkly, then 
we evolve. 

636
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,300
So this is from ey suggestion. 
When you're driving any 

637
00:31:03,300 --> 00:31:06,400
technical practice, any that can
go change focus on the problems 

638
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,100
first and make sure you can 
lead. 

639
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:10,400
By example, make sure that you 
know what you're talking about 

640
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,700
because if you are not good at 
what you are trying to convince 

641
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:16,300
other people to do that. 
It's a very big chance that 

642
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:19,600
you're gonna find another things
that mindset across my cheek 

643
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,600
mind, such as creating a 
learning organization. 

644
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,400
And in there, there are also a 
lot of advanced don't be blocked

645
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:29,500
by your manager because your 
manager doesn't want to give you

646
00:31:29,500 --> 00:31:32,800
time or because they don't give 
you the money or they don't buy 

647
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,100
the books and stuff. 
Look, I believe that you have a 

648
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:37,900
one-hour Notch, right? 
So most countries will have a 

649
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:41,000
one-hour Bunch break. 
Take one hour a week. 

650
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,900
After lunch time. 
Bring some lunch from home or 

651
00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,700
buying a supermarket as most 
sandwich, go to an empty meeting

652
00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:50,300
room and tell your colleagues 
and say look guys. 

653
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:53,300
I'm going to be in this meeting 
room during my Each time. 

654
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:54,900
I'm going to be working on this 
Captain. 

655
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:56,900
I'm going to be learning these 
technology. 

656
00:31:57,100 --> 00:31:58,900
Would you like to join getting 
fine people? 

657
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:01,500
So you don't need authorization 
for managers, you don't need 

658
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:03,400
time. 
You know, like when you speak to

659
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,700
your colleagues about whatever 
you like music sports or 

660
00:32:06,700 --> 00:32:08,300
whatever, you have it, nice 
conversation. 

661
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:09,800
It can also have about 
sculpture. 

662
00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:12,800
You can also have the constantly
I learned this new technologies,

663
00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,300
new programming language. 
The more you do that your 

664
00:32:15,300 --> 00:32:17,700
organization more people, get 
excited. 

665
00:32:17,700 --> 00:32:19,600
They want to be part of that 
group. 

666
00:32:19,700 --> 00:32:22,400
They wanted to learn some of my 
colleagues are learning. 

667
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,100
They are R. 
That's for me. 

668
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,500
Like one advice and also don't 
try to convince everyone. 

669
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,700
Not everyone will join. 
So don't be upset about it. 

670
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:32,300
We have to about the ones that 
joint. 

671
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,200
He will never change. 
Everyone be acting with the ones

672
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,400
that you can change. 
That's my advice. 

673
00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:40,800
So for those listeners, we just 
listened to Sandra is pretty 

674
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,100
insightful. 
So you can start anytime you 

675
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:44,300
want. 
It's just a mindset. 

676
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,200
Anyone can not block your 
mindset, definitely, in terms of

677
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,600
practices. 
Don't talk about solution first.

678
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:52,100
So try to come with what 
problems you are, trying to 

679
00:32:52,100 --> 00:32:54,100
solve things. 
Through the Journey and probably

680
00:32:54,100 --> 00:32:55,800
proposed the solution from 
there. 

681
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,000
And then lastly, you probably 
cannot convince everyone and 

682
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,100
either that you must convince 
everyone, right? 

683
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:03,600
So there will be some detractors
and it's fine. 

684
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:06,800
So the key thing here is that 
keep on learning and improve 

685
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,400
yourself. 
So Sandra, thanks so much for 

686
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,000
the software craftsmanship 
discussion. 

687
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:14,100
I also realized that lately you 
have been talking about software

688
00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:16,400
modernization. 
A lot with your company called 

689
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:18,400
Durance. 
So what do you mean by software 

690
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:22,100
modernization? 
Actually, so I lost really find 

691
00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:26,000
this option one. 
Ization as a continuous process 

692
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:30,400
of improving systems that are 
strategic in order to increase 

693
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:33,000
business agility. 
That's how I see that. 

694
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:37,200
So software, my ization is about
improving systems that will 

695
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,700
create an impact in the business
because it is a strategic 

696
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:44,300
effort, is not just a small 
refactoring, or adding some 

697
00:33:44,300 --> 00:33:46,400
tests. 
That's how I probably would 

698
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:50,400
Define softer condensation. 
So, how does it differ with 

699
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,700
software re-architecture or 
rewrite? 

700
00:33:52,900 --> 00:33:56,200
You know, those kind of stuff. 
So I think that the 

701
00:33:56,200 --> 00:34:00,000
architecture, we arrived are 
things that you do during a 

702
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:02,400
software modernization that you 
may do. 

703
00:34:02,500 --> 00:34:05,500
Because for example, you can 
also talk about re-platform. 

704
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,199
Maybe you are taking your 
systems and now moving to the 

705
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,300
cloud or changing the cloud or 
what happened. 

706
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:13,800
So those are things that you end
up doing as part of a 

707
00:34:13,808 --> 00:34:16,800
modernization process, but for 
me, the difference is the softer

708
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,800
modernization is a business 
investment. 

709
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:22,199
It's like, look, we as a 
business, we want to go in this 

710
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,100
direction. 
And so are we ready to go in a 

711
00:34:25,100 --> 00:34:28,600
direction we have systems? 
That would support the direction

712
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,800
that we want to go or even like,
are there anything blocking us 

713
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,699
to move in that direction? 
So, first up with those in 

714
00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:37,500
efficiencies where if we 
actually got rid of those in 

715
00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:40,500
efficiencies, we will have more 
time and wanted to spend where 

716
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:42,500
we should spend at least a 
stoppage of the pieces and 

717
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:45,400
making sure that our technology 
is supporting, that stuff is so 

718
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,699
for me. 
The modernization is all about 

719
00:34:47,699 --> 00:34:51,199
that is aligning the technology 
to support the business touch 

720
00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,199
and in doing so, We might need 
to repack form a few systems. 

721
00:34:55,199 --> 00:34:57,000
You might need to react 
effectively Seasons. 

722
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,700
We might need to change the 
features from one system to 

723
00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:02,300
another. 
So that is all part of the work 

724
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:04,900
of the mineralization is the 
business approach where 

725
00:35:04,900 --> 00:35:07,800
refactoring and reactivities 
Technical approach. 

726
00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,000
That might be used during a 
modernization project. 

727
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,100
Is it fair to say? 
I mean, based on my 

728
00:35:13,100 --> 00:35:15,600
understanding is that you can 
only deal with software 

729
00:35:15,600 --> 00:35:17,200
modernization as a certain 
scale. 

730
00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,500
I mean like you don't count 
refactoring adding more test 

731
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:22,600
something that it called 
modernization. 

732
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:25,500
But it's more towards like, 
okay, at this certain scale, the

733
00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,200
business wants to run in a 
certain direction, but probably 

734
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:30,600
they can't achieve that because 
of the software that they have, 

735
00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:33,700
and thus, they need to modernize
the system of the architecture 

736
00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:35,500
of the software. 
Is that fair to say the 

737
00:35:35,500 --> 00:35:37,200
assumptions? 
Yes. 

738
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:46,900
Yes, because most of us 
listening to the show. 

739
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,700
We work a lot with Legacy code. 
So, not everything we do is new.

740
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:53,400
Well, the new code is easy, 
likely to have to These need to 

741
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:56,700
be well designed and so on. 
So forth about the existing one,

742
00:35:56,700 --> 00:35:59,200
we need to refactor. 
We need you to keep improving as

743
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:00,700
we are touching the different 
areas. 

744
00:36:00,700 --> 00:36:03,300
This is something that we need 
to do as a normal part of our 

745
00:36:03,300 --> 00:36:05,900
development cycle. 
When I talk about motorization 

746
00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:07,800
is something that is more 
strategic. 

747
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,900
You cannot do that. 
As your normal day-to-day job, 

748
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:12,600
the reasons we need to invest 
money. 

749
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,300
We need to prioritize, some 
people will be working certain 

750
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:17,700
things. 
So there is a whole business 

751
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:20,400
strategy behind the 
modernization. 

752
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,700
Then we are looking a few years 
ahead. 

753
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,500
You're not just looking at our 
next future. 

754
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,800
That's for me. 
How I see modernization 

755
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:28,000
projects. 
We are preparing. 

756
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,100
We are helping the company to 
restructure themselves for the 

757
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:34,400
next few years, right? 
So in your experience, what are 

758
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:38,000
some of these business drivers 
may be some examples or maybe 

759
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:41,300
some categories of business 
drivers that normally companies 

760
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:43,300
consider for modernization 
effort. 

761
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,600
So there are few. 
What is what we call sustainable

762
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:48,600
change. 
So, a lot of companies, I 

763
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:51,100
believe that all of the 
listeners will relate to this 

764
00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:52,700
one. 
There is a general. 

765
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,500
Getting there. 
We are slow, that things are not

766
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:58,000
happening fast. 
From a developer's perspective, 

767
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,200
from a business perspective, 
from you a perspective. 

768
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:01,900
There's always someone has said,
look, there is a lot of 

769
00:37:01,900 --> 00:37:04,800
confusion seas, and we would 
like to be counting change, or 

770
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,200
changing our systems regularly 
in a good Pace. 

771
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:10,800
But as we are changing, we are 
pushing that out and stuff. 

772
00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:13,400
A lot of organizations. 
They have systems that are built

773
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,000
in a way that this is not 
possible because they're not 

774
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,800
testable or the way that the 
system is architected doesn't 

775
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,300
allow different areas of the 
business to evolve 

776
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:23,800
independently. 
Don't be commanders. 

777
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:27,400
So you want to change the 
payment system battery pack the 

778
00:37:27,500 --> 00:37:29,900
I don't know the products and 
the catalog and stuff, because 

779
00:37:29,900 --> 00:37:32,800
they are all together that makes
it cheaper to change or 

780
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,700
difficult to test. 
That's why we need to have key 

781
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:38,600
way or because of the way that 
we deploy and do things. 

782
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,700
We cannot keep pushing things to
production. 

783
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:43,800
So one of the reasons is that we
may have a more sustainable 

784
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:47,200
change, but this is the still 
focusing on in efficiencies. 

785
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,400
That's a driver but it's a 
driver focused on clean 

786
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,100
efficiencies. 
Another drive. 

787
00:37:52,100 --> 00:37:54,500
That isn't over. 
So companies say we would love 

788
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:57,300
to innovate more but it takes 
too long. 

789
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,300
So every time you want to 
innovate our release Cadence 

790
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:02,700
this, you know, what's this is 
similar to the previous one, 

791
00:38:02,700 --> 00:38:05,300
sort of because there are 
different aspects to it. 

792
00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,300
One is, if you have a 
streamlined process, your 

793
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:11,300
software, your systems and 
infrastructure is all aligned. 

794
00:38:11,300 --> 00:38:14,700
You can innovate faster, but 
there's also a different times 

795
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:17,300
that you don't even think that 
across the entire business. 

796
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:19,500
You might not really want to 
specific area. 

797
00:38:19,700 --> 00:38:22,000
Like, look, I don't you change. 
Everything is just this bit that

798
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,500
you want to innovate. 
Once your system to allow that. 

799
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,700
So maybe there is another drive 
just to modernize that beat of 

800
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:30,600
the system may be like detached 
from the rest of the systems and

801
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,400
making sure they're part of the 
system as an architecture, that 

802
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,200
allows us to innovate constantly
and that has a different life 

803
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,100
cycle of the rest of the system.
Another thing that is very 

804
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:43,200
interesting on how a talk is 
called lining product and 

805
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:45,700
software design. 
So for example, it also depends 

806
00:38:45,700 --> 00:38:48,200
on the kind of innovation and 
the kind of project speeds of 

807
00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:49,900
your Imperial. 
Lean Startup. 

808
00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:53,200
You need to push things up very 
quickly and then Get fit. 

809
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,700
So you first push this stuff 
out, get feedback and the new 

810
00:38:56,700 --> 00:38:59,900
barn and inspect. 
But in order to do that, we need

811
00:38:59,900 --> 00:39:03,800
to architecture system, to allow
you to do that because you want,

812
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,700
Push It Up. 
So the way that we collect 

813
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:08,500
information, you need to design 
your system in a way where that 

814
00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:10,700
Cadence that read them is 
possible. 

815
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:13,600
So you need to notarize some 
companies. 

816
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,200
Prefer to innovate with very 
concrete features. 

817
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,600
They have a very stable set of 
coins and they release features 

818
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,500
that our clients are asking for.
So these has Different type of 

819
00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:26,100
architecture, there is more 
stable refundable mind. 

820
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:28,500
There will be loads of people 
using that stuff and they've 

821
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,400
been waiting for that stuff. 
So, the way that you 

822
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,900
architecture system is different
from the other one. 

823
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,300
So when you talk about 
Innovations, we also need to 

824
00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:37,700
understand which kind of 
innovation so that we prepare 

825
00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:40,900
our systems to support that and 
then there is technology. 

826
00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,700
For example, a lot of companies 
are spending a fortune, 

827
00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:47,700
maintaining their in-house data,
centers and production people 

828
00:39:47,700 --> 00:39:49,600
stuff. 
So there is a lot of Technology 

829
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,300
of their Cloud technology, many 
things that would save them a 

830
00:39:52,308 --> 00:39:53,300
lot. 
Money. 

831
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:57,000
A lot of time and we'll do a far
better job doing inside or even 

832
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,300
testing Technologies or many 
other things. 

833
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:02,900
So those are some of them people
culture something. 

834
00:40:02,900 --> 00:40:04,700
Oh, please, don't talk much 
about. 

835
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,900
For example, a lot of companies 
say, oh, we are struggling to 

836
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:10,100
hire. 
So we are struggling to attract 

837
00:40:10,100 --> 00:40:12,700
and retain Talent. 
We know if you want a technology

838
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:16,500
company you want to bring good 
technologists to your 

839
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:18,600
organization. 
You need to be working with good

840
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:20,800
technology because good 
technologists. 

841
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,100
They want good technology. 
Sometimes the organization is 

842
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,700
all about that. 
We rely on technology and we 

843
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:29,400
need the best Minds to join us. 
Well, make sure that you want to

844
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:31,700
know if your systems regularly 
so that you can keep them. 

845
00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:34,300
So those are different things 
but there are reasons a line is 

846
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:36,000
risk management. 
There are many other drivers, 

847
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,500
but those are just some of them,
thanks for outlining all that. 

848
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:42,400
So to me, the company typical 
company, whenever people talk 

849
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:43,900
about software modernization, 
right? 

850
00:40:43,900 --> 00:40:46,800
It's like a huge thing. 
It's very complex involves a lot

851
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,100
of project planning resource 
planning. 

852
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,600
A lot of litigation process risk
management and things like that.

853
00:40:52,700 --> 00:40:55,700
So in your experience, what 
typically are the common? 

854
00:40:55,700 --> 00:41:00,300
Maybe failures or impediments 
blockers that might prevent the 

855
00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:02,200
success of the modernization 
effort. 

856
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:04,600
We are many blocks. 
You mentioned quite a few of 

857
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,100
them. 
I think that one of the blocks 

858
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:09,300
is trying to do too much in one 
go. 

859
00:41:09,300 --> 00:41:11,400
I think that we should have a 
good goal. 

860
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:13,500
So for example, we should be 
ambitious when we talk about 

861
00:41:13,500 --> 00:41:16,600
company strategy, where product 
strategy? 

862
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,400
We shouldn't be ambitious. 
We should look ahead a few years

863
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:20,900
ahead. 
So this is where you would like 

864
00:41:20,900 --> 00:41:23,900
to be in a few years time and 
this Is where we are now. 

865
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:27,000
So, what we need to do to get 
there that Vision needs to 

866
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,600
exist. 
It doesn't exist. 

867
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:30,700
It needs to be created. 
Now. 

868
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:33,200
Once we have a Venus, okay. 
Now, we need to do all of that. 

869
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,400
This is what I would be against 
now, follow the agile approach. 

870
00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:37,700
Okay. 
We have a vision. 

871
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:39,400
We have a go. 
We have a Direction. 

872
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,900
So now I can create that looking
ahead a few years now, let's 

873
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:44,600
reduce. 
So we know the direction we need

874
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,000
to go. 
Let's reduce our vision to three

875
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:48,800
months. 
What will be the next? 

876
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,400
The most important step forward 
right now? 

877
00:41:51,600 --> 00:41:54,200
And then a plan for those new 
It's done for those six months 

878
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,400
during walk that you constrain 
will narrow down your focus. 

879
00:41:58,600 --> 00:42:01,300
Just do a small things, do a few
experiments. 

880
00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:04,600
And as you do that, you start 
validating that direction that 

881
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,200
you created. 
So three months down the line 

882
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:09,500
after a milestone or three 
months, six months. 

883
00:42:09,500 --> 00:42:11,800
Whatever that Milestone would be
you. 

884
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,800
Stoppin us. 
Okay, 36 months ago. 

885
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,200
We had this Vision in here and 
we were there. 

886
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:19,100
Now we progressed a little bit 
more. 

887
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,100
We like to be it. 
Do we still want to go in that 

888
00:42:22,100 --> 00:42:24,400
direction? 
Ian, is this our main priority. 

889
00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:25,900
So. 
Okay. 

890
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,600
Let's recalibrate that vision. 
And now let's prepare the next 

891
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,800
digit 0 to 6 months. 
Then you walk another three to 

892
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:34,900
six months. 
Every so that's from either side

893
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:38,800
could so then you don't go for 
this massive five-year monstrous

894
00:42:38,800 --> 00:42:41,200
projects that our organizations 
do that. 

895
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,600
Normally go wrong after 23 
years. 

896
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,300
The people leave the company or 
they are promoted for something 

897
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:49,700
that has not been done. 
And then a new guy comes in and 

898
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:51,300
say, oh I want to change 
everything. 

899
00:42:51,300 --> 00:42:53,100
I have a new five year. 
One. 

900
00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:56,200
So then the lack of time, lack 
of money, lack of skills. 

901
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,000
All of those things. 
The freak is block, is the fear 

902
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:04,500
of a big commitment money time, 
excusing in changes and stuff. 

903
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,900
So if you can remove the big 
Commitment, if you say like 

904
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:11,100
greater Visions mature 
commitment will be small three 

905
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:12,200
months. 
Six months. 

906
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:15,000
It's much easier to get started 
and keep review. 

907
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,400
So that would be for me then 
pageants and how I would 

908
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:21,500
mitigate those things. 
So, is there any kind of common 

909
00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:24,000
principles behind? 
Find a successful software 

910
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,000
modernization. 
You mentioned probably one is 

911
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,100
age of having more short 
feedback cycle, maybe three 

912
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:31,000
months. 
Instead of five year plans. 

913
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:35,100
Is there any other common 
techniques or principles behind 

914
00:43:35,100 --> 00:43:37,200
a successful modernization? 
Yeah. 

915
00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,000
So the main one is like I have a
big Vision but working in small 

916
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,500
increments and keep reviewing 
the distress. 

917
00:43:42,500 --> 00:43:44,700
What we discussed before. 
Another thing in an 

918
00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:46,800
organization, a modernization 
project. 

919
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:49,200
It is an investment and with an 
investment. 

920
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,100
You need to have a return which 
means that investment has a 

921
00:43:52,100 --> 00:43:55,600
disruption. 
So that is money tying people, 

922
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,700
right? 
So that are involved in that 

923
00:43:57,700 --> 00:44:00,500
investment. 
So one thing is make sure we 

924
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:03,800
have a clear measuring the 
return on investment but also 

925
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,700
try to create as minimal 
disruption as possible because 

926
00:44:07,700 --> 00:44:09,500
the business to needs to keep 
going. 

927
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:13,700
So you cannot wait for freeze 
your business for one to three 

928
00:44:13,700 --> 00:44:14,600
years. 
Okay. 

929
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,400
So you need to keep going. 
So having that balance is very 

930
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:18,900
difficult. 
There is a lot of analysis and 

931
00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:21,300
planning that goes in so that 
you can modernize our system 

932
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:24,200
while we fighting. 
Minimum disruption to the 

933
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:27,800
business as usual work. 
The thing is, don't try to fix, 

934
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:29,900
what's not broken. 
This is another thing that we 

935
00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:33,800
see a lot, maybe when those 
kinds of initiatives come from 

936
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:36,600
technology. 
Like I need to be honest, some 

937
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,500
people in technology, they go to
business, a we all need to go to

938
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:41,100
the cloud. 
We all need to do micro 

939
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:43,600
Services. 
We all need you to complication 

940
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,300
in nodejs or whatever, so they 
come in with all these 

941
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:49,400
Solutions, but what is exactly 
the business value that you're 

942
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,300
providing me doing that. 
So if it's not broken, don't fix

943
00:44:52,300 --> 00:44:54,400
it. 
And when I say, bro, I'm talking

944
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,300
about business here. 
For example, not being able to 

945
00:44:57,300 --> 00:45:00,200
deliver features fast enough 
because we have a long queue a 

946
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,500
cycling. 
A lot of reworking, our 

947
00:45:02,500 --> 00:45:04,500
development flow. 
That's a business problem. 

948
00:45:04,500 --> 00:45:07,100
That's not a technology. 
So every technology problem is a

949
00:45:07,100 --> 00:45:10,500
business problem, but let's make
sure that we can map that. 

950
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,800
Another thing is for me law of 
diminishing returns. 

951
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:15,800
This is similar to the potatoes 
log. 

952
00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:21,400
So sometimes a 20% Improvement 
in one area, might cause an 80% 

953
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,200
Improvement. 
So if We fix 20% of our 

954
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:26,800
technical issues. 
We might create an 80% 

955
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,200
Improvement in a business and 
it's not worth it sometimes to 

956
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,900
try to get your 100 percent 
because that's where the law of 

957
00:45:32,900 --> 00:45:36,000
diminishing returns comes in. 
So in order to achieve the last 

958
00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:38,900
change percentage of the reasons
we need to do 80% of all 

959
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,300
working. 
So just focus on things that 

960
00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:44,300
really caused an impact but it 
don't waste a lot of effort in 

961
00:45:44,308 --> 00:45:47,200
case of have a very small and 
possibly very smart in how we 

962
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,500
organize our work. 
And the last one that I would 

963
00:45:49,500 --> 00:45:53,000
say is this took me a long time 
to figure out and this is Creaks

964
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:55,200
chains, which is software, 
craftsmanship, movement, which I

965
00:45:55,200 --> 00:45:57,300
helped you create. 
You need to have Excellence 

966
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:00,700
everywhere and they are quite 
often. 

967
00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:03,400
Are the fingers only need to 
keep refactoring one week later.

968
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:05,800
They are still deciding, which 
named we're going to put it into

969
00:46:05,800 --> 00:46:07,800
a variable. 
So when they keep refining the 

970
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,100
same class over and over again, 
this is for me a problem and the

971
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:14,400
problem that we do that in a 
much larger scale, we services 

972
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,300
with architecture and stuff so 
part of the modernization. 

973
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:20,200
But also part of craftsmanship, 
which is more important to me is

974
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,500
we should always strive for a 
pragmatic. 

975
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,600
Solution. 
And I have that as a subtitle of

976
00:46:24,607 --> 00:46:26,900
my book. 
That pragmatism is part of 

977
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:29,500
craftsmanship. 
Pragmatism is different from 

978
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,800
cutting Corners. 
Pragmatism is to say look, given

979
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,200
our context. 
What is the simplest thing you 

980
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,300
could do here? 
What is the best we can do? 

981
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:40,700
Even the context. 
But accepting that time is a 

982
00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:44,200
constraint money is a constraint
business. 

983
00:46:44,300 --> 00:46:48,900
Moving forward is a constraint. 
So we did those real constraints

984
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:51,600
we can do our best. 
So then we Define a pragmatic 

985
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,000
solution and Dean, the pragmatic
solution, we have accents, but 

986
00:46:56,100 --> 00:47:00,800
Excellence needs to be bounded 
because when Excellence is not 

987
00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:03,900
bounded for is unbounded. 
There is a big chance to 

988
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:06,100
technical. 
People will be very fast, very 

989
00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:09,500
fast, very fast, and things try 
to improve things, but 

990
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:11,400
business-wise has zero business 
value. 

991
00:47:11,900 --> 00:47:14,900
So, this is something quite 
typical for every technical 

992
00:47:14,900 --> 00:47:17,700
people or Engineers. 
We all love dealing with 

993
00:47:17,700 --> 00:47:20,900
Technologies, especially if 
there's any new technologies, we

994
00:47:20,908 --> 00:47:24,400
need in the cloud contains. - 
kubernetes or even some kind of 

995
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,700
new methodologies. 
Like for example, if there's any

996
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:28,800
new, I don't know, like XP 
coming around. 

997
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,700
We just want to play around, try
it. 

998
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:33,200
And probably also resume driven 
development. 

999
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,200
You want to attack a certain 
label in our resume, right? 

1000
00:47:36,200 --> 00:47:39,400
So what do you think can be done
to improve our pragmatism? 

1001
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:42,900
You know, like how can we adopt 
more pragmatics approach rather 

1002
00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:46,000
than being enticed by new 
technologies or shiny 

1003
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,500
Technologies. 
This is just a question because 

1004
00:47:48,500 --> 00:47:52,200
for me is part of you need to 
want to do that as well. 

1005
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,500
Then I Two side streets and one 
is the personal side of. 

1006
00:47:55,500 --> 00:47:59,300
Yes, for example, you 
understanding that you are a 

1007
00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:02,400
professional, providing a 
service regardless, if you want 

1008
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:06,700
a permanent employee, if you are
a contractor or a consultant, it

1009
00:48:06,700 --> 00:48:09,500
doesn't matter how you are hired
to do that job. 

1010
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:13,400
How your pages and job, you are 
still a professional, providing 

1011
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,400
a sentence. 
And in my view, you should 

1012
00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:17,800
provide a service that suits 
your client. 

1013
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,400
Well, regardless of your 
preferences, this is very 

1014
00:48:21,400 --> 00:48:23,600
difficult. 
This is very common for people 

1015
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,500
working Consultants accomplished
to understand less common for 

1016
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:28,600
people working as permanent 
employees. 

1017
00:48:28,900 --> 00:48:32,500
Because as a consultant you were
hired to do specific jobs and 

1018
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:36,400
you try to understand the coins 
context, their boundaries, the 

1019
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:38,000
things that they keep 
comfortable diffusal. 

1020
00:48:38,000 --> 00:48:40,400
If you want comfortable, you 
have those conversations, you 

1021
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,000
understand, real constraints, 
made up constraints. 

1022
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:46,800
And then, when you come up with 
your solution, you create a 

1023
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,600
solution that fits that context,
that doesn't mean that's how you

1024
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:54,600
do it yourself, so, Your hand. 
Just say if I have zero 

1025
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:58,600
constraints, I would do this. 
And if I had a post my online 

1026
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:00,900
and zero constraints, I would go
this way. 

1027
00:49:01,100 --> 00:49:02,700
But here I'm providing a 
service. 

1028
00:49:02,800 --> 00:49:06,100
I would never do something that 
would hurt our clients, but I 

1029
00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:09,600
would also not push a solution 
to them that they're not 

1030
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,900
comfortable with that's not 
going to work them. 

1031
00:49:12,100 --> 00:49:14,800
So for me, this is the 
pragmatism from to place a 

1032
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:18,500
tailor your Solutions given the 
context that you have. 

1033
00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:21,100
The mindset is, like, what would
be best for the company? 

1034
00:49:21,100 --> 00:49:24,600
Not be best for me? 
So that's one side and on the 

1035
00:49:24,600 --> 00:49:27,300
other side. 
It's a bit more harsh know is 

1036
00:49:27,300 --> 00:49:28,800
from the ones that are paying 
the bill. 

1037
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:31,400
I think that when you are paying
for the service that you don't 

1038
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:33,600
understand, that is a lot of 
problems. 

1039
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,900
You are not educated enough to 
value that service. 

1040
00:49:37,100 --> 00:49:39,100
We all do that. 
So there are lots of things we 

1041
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:42,200
pay to data. 
I'm not educated enough to judge

1042
00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:45,500
and this creates problems 
because my expectations might be

1043
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:48,300
different for the person, 
providing the service and may 

1044
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:50,900
not be able even to hire the 
person providing the service. 

1045
00:49:50,900 --> 00:49:54,800
For example, now open we had to 
People do marketing and sales 

1046
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:58,700
and really back office job that 
I don't know how to do myself 

1047
00:49:58,700 --> 00:50:00,700
and makes it very difficult for 
me to judge. 

1048
00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:04,400
So I believe that organizations 
they need to educate themselves.

1049
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,800
A little bit better for the core
systems for the course services 

1050
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,200
that they hire for regardless, 
if they hire permanent employees

1051
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:14,500
or external nodes, but if a 
service is very key to their 

1052
00:50:14,500 --> 00:50:18,200
business, they should be well 
educated, so they can judge the 

1053
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,100
people providing defense. 
That's another aspect. 

1054
00:50:21,900 --> 00:50:23,800
I know I might be idealist here.
Right? 

1055
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,300
But if we have a well-crafted 
software, is it going to help in

1056
00:50:27,300 --> 00:50:30,000
terms of avoiding the software 
modernization effort? 

1057
00:50:30,500 --> 00:50:34,700
Not necessarily know because for
me it depends on how you define 

1058
00:50:34,700 --> 00:50:37,400
those things and in which level 
of abstraction you define those 

1059
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,300
things at least. 
When I think about well-crafted 

1060
00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:44,900
software and thinking of this 
mole, let's say on the code 

1061
00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:48,200
base, that our services have. 
So is it where structure 

1062
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:52,100
well-tested nicely separated? 
It's tough, but I'm not Cannibal

1063
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:55,700
the entire solution. 
So for example, if we decide to 

1064
00:50:55,700 --> 00:50:59,100
have a new set of features 
business ones, or have a 

1065
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:02,700
different direction, the way 
that my systems are designed 

1066
00:51:02,700 --> 00:51:06,100
with a split or even a 
technology that I use where we 

1067
00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,400
are hosting. 
Those systems might not be 

1068
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,400
suitable to the direction. 
So it's not only related to the 

1069
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,300
code itself. 
But the choice of the technology

1070
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:18,400
that contextual model, as the 
organization involves the 

1071
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,400
systems were created to map. 
Those kind of things. 

1072
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,300
You know, areas are gone with 
context of the business, but the

1073
00:51:24,308 --> 00:51:26,400
business is evolving at some 
point. 

1074
00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:29,300
What we created in the past 
might not be alive anymore. 

1075
00:51:29,500 --> 00:51:32,600
And that is regardless, if the 
code is Well, written for not 

1076
00:51:32,700 --> 00:51:35,700
saying with your technology and 
cloud and so on so forth. 

1077
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,600
So for me, the modernization is 
now aligned the current 

1078
00:51:38,600 --> 00:51:41,000
Technical Solutions to the new 
direction of the company wants 

1079
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,500
to go or remove some impediments
that before worked. 

1080
00:51:44,500 --> 00:51:46,700
Well, but now, with the new 
Direction, the way that we've 

1081
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:49,600
done things in the past are now 
a block for where you want to 

1082
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,200
be, definitely make sense. 
So, Sandra has been a pleasure 

1083
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:54,900
talking about software, 
craftsmanship, and 

1084
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:57,200
modernization. 
I have one last question, which 

1085
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,200
I normally ask for every guest, 
which is to share your tree. 

1086
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:01,600
Technical leadership. 
Wisdom. 

1087
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:04,500
Do you have any tree technical 
leadership wisdom that you want 

1088
00:52:04,500 --> 00:52:08,200
to share with us today? 
I'll tell you what works for me.

1089
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:13,000
I don't know if that's one thing
that I always tell you to pass, 

1090
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,600
but he became even stronger in 
the past two years, is a thing 

1091
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:20,000
called Extreme ownership. 
There is a book called Extreme 

1092
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:21,400
ownership, which is a book that 
I wrote. 

1093
00:52:21,500 --> 00:52:25,300
I read recently, and it really 
improved the way it was. 

1094
00:52:25,300 --> 00:52:28,100
And so basically, like what it 
means, is, whatever happens, is 

1095
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:30,900
your fault. 
So you have no one to blame, 

1096
00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,600
except yourself. 
So, these mindsets just need to 

1097
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,100
be careful because people may 
become depressed. 

1098
00:52:36,100 --> 00:52:38,400
Whole we have coffee now. 
It's my fault. 

1099
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:40,900
I'm just trying the world. 
It's not at that level. 

1100
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:43,600
But when you are doing your job 
organization, when you see 

1101
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:45,800
things that you don't like, or 
things are not going the way you

1102
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,100
want. 
First thing to think about is is

1103
00:52:48,100 --> 00:52:50,500
your fault. 
What are you doing about it? 

1104
00:52:50,700 --> 00:52:53,700
What should I do it? 
Why am I failing to communicate?

1105
00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:57,100
What am I failing to turn these 
around and you would never blame

1106
00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:00,800
anyone else except for yourself.
These for me is key for any 

1107
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,700
leader who take responsibility. 
Another thing is try to be as 

1108
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:05,900
good as you can. 
In what to do. 

1109
00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:07,400
That doesn't mean that you're 
going to be great. 

1110
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:09,500
That doesn't mean it's going to 
be better than anyone else. 

1111
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:12,800
But you have that innate desire 
to be good. 

1112
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,400
You are trying hard. 
These leads to potentially the 

1113
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,800
third one that even though 
become an inspiration for me, a 

1114
00:53:18,808 --> 00:53:21,400
leader needs to inspire people 
begin to look at it. 

1115
00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:24,900
Even inside this person here, 
Works harder than anyone else. 

1116
00:53:25,100 --> 00:53:27,100
So a leader should be the one 
working hard. 

1117
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:29,800
The hardest should be the one 
calling the responsiveness. 

1118
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,500
To say it's fucked up as my 
fault and work hard. 

1119
00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:34,400
So I think that, if you are 
trying to be as good as you can 

1120
00:53:34,400 --> 00:53:36,800
be, take full responsibility for
everything. 

1121
00:53:37,100 --> 00:53:38,700
The last one would happen. 
Naturally. 

1122
00:53:38,700 --> 00:53:41,300
That is be an inspiration. 
I would say that would be my 

1123
00:53:41,300 --> 00:53:44,900
third advice, but now that I'm 
thinking about, you don't choose

1124
00:53:44,900 --> 00:53:48,400
to inspire people, right? 
So you cannot choose that is not

1125
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,200
under your control. 
Be an inspiration to others, you

1126
00:53:51,207 --> 00:53:55,400
can Behave in a specific way and
maybe people will feel inspired 

1127
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:58,200
by that or not. 
So I will stick with you then. 

1128
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:01,500
So extreme ownership and try to 
be as good as you can. 

1129
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:02,900
Okay? 
How about another one? 

1130
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:04,700
Be sure that you're nice to 
people. 

1131
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:06,900
So thank you so much for the 
wisdom. 

1132
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:08,900
Definitely. 
I can resonate with all that. 

1133
00:54:08,900 --> 00:54:12,000
So Sandra if people want to find
you online, is there a place 

1134
00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,300
where they can find you? 
Yeah, so we can reach out to me 

1135
00:54:15,300 --> 00:54:18,600
by email if they want. 
So Sundrop at coder in 

1136
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:21,200
Stockholm. 
There's always Twitter varies. 

1137
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,300
Sundra Mancuso. 
Those are probably the two best 

1138
00:54:24,300 --> 00:54:27,100
place for each option. 
Alright, so thanks again for 

1139
00:54:27,100 --> 00:54:29,500
coming to the show and sharing 
your knowledge and wisdom. 

1140
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,500
I wish you. 
Good luck with Cody runs and all

1141
00:54:31,500 --> 00:54:33,700
your modernization effort. 
My pleasure. 

1142
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:41,800
Thanks for having me. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1143
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,500
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1144
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,600
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1145
00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,900
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1146
00:54:50,900 --> 00:54:53,200
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1147
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,500
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
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review and feedback. 
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1150
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You can also find the full show 
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1151
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the Episode page at technology, 
know the death website, 

1152
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including the full transcript, 
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1153
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1157
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1158
00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:28,500
Goodbye.