1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,500 Mental will be is a silent pandemic. 2 00:00:02,900 --> 00:00:06,800 According to the who depression and anxiety caused the global 3 00:00:06,800 --> 00:00:10,600 economy over one trillion US dollars every year, it's time to 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:13,600 make a difference. Learn how to enhance your life's 5 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,300 true. A master class from Founders 6 00:00:15,300 --> 00:00:18,500 well-being, and my good friend Sunday brow on mental Wellness, 7 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,200 visit Founders well-being.com / Master Class to enroll and enter 8 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:27,600 tlj 24. 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And we have a 15% discount code 20 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,400 for you. Enter tlj underscore MP 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:10,600 underscore 15 for 15 percent discount, as a team leader, my 22 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:15,400 job or the way I measure myself is that I make myself unneeded. 23 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:19,600 So every day or every week I look and I try to even measure 24 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,000 how much do people need me to solve their problems if they can 25 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,900 solve more problems without me this week than they did last 26 00:01:26,900 --> 00:01:28,500 week that I'm doing a better job. 27 00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:32,200 You will actually become um, more successful and more 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:34,700 valuable to your company. If you are no longer a 29 00:01:34,708 --> 00:01:38,000 bottleneck for the people that are working with you and under 30 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:46,300 you, hey everyone, my name is Henry Surya with Robin. 31 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:50,800 And you're listening to the technology, you know, podcast 32 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:53,500 the show where I'll be bringing you the greatest technical 33 00:01:53,500 --> 00:01:57,400 leaders practitioners and thought leaders in the industry 34 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,100 to discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all 35 00:02:02,100 --> 00:02:05,700 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 36 00:02:06,100 --> 00:02:08,500 and to make an impact in your personal work. 37 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:17,400 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello again, to all of you, my 38 00:02:17,400 --> 00:02:19,300 friends. Welcome to the Tecla Journal 39 00:02:19,300 --> 00:02:22,300 podcast, the show where you can learn about technical leadership 40 00:02:22,300 --> 00:02:25,000 and Excellence from my conversations with great 41 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,700 thought, leaders in the tech industry, and this is the 42 00:02:27,700 --> 00:02:31,100 episode number 110. If this is your first time 43 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:34,500 listening to tackle a journal, subscribe and follow the show on 44 00:02:34,500 --> 00:02:37,600 your podcast app and on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. 45 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,900 And if you'd like to support my journey, creating this podcast, 46 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:43,500 Please Subscribe as a patron at technology. 47 00:02:43,500 --> 00:02:48,500 Know that death / Patron, my guest for today's episode is Roy 48 00:02:48,500 --> 00:02:51,300 or Sheriff. Roy is the author of elastic 49 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:53,800 leadership and the Art of unit testing. 50 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,300 In this episode, we discussed his leadership, insights from 51 00:02:57,300 --> 00:03:01,100 the elastic leadership book Roy first shared how he came up with 52 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:04,700 the concept taken from his learning experience and describe 53 00:03:04,700 --> 00:03:08,100 what elastic leadership is. He explained, the different 54 00:03:08,100 --> 00:03:11,700 leadership styles based on the three team faces, which are the 55 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:16,400 survival mode, learning mode, and self-organizing mode, an As 56 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,200 how leaders can adapt and transition their leadership 57 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,100 style from one phase to the other. 58 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:24,600 In order to lead more effectively Roy, also shared 59 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:28,300 about the team leader, Manifesto and the line manager, Manifesto 60 00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:31,800 to provide some guidance on how leaders can grow their teams to 61 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:34,300 add self-organization and self-sufficiency. 62 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,000 I enjoyed my conversation with Roy. 63 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,600 And elastic leadership is one of my favorite books learning about 64 00:03:40,600 --> 00:03:43,900 how we can adapt our leadership styles, more fluidly based on 65 00:03:43,900 --> 00:03:46,700 the themes face. If you also find This episode 66 00:03:46,700 --> 00:03:49,700 useful, please help, share it with your friends and colleagues 67 00:03:49,900 --> 00:03:52,800 who can also benefit from listening to this episode. 68 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,800 I really appreciate your support in sharing and spreading this 69 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,200 podcast and the knowledge to more people. 70 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,600 And before we continue to the conversation, let's hear some 71 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,000 words from our sponsors definitey is the top 72 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:07,600 International software development conference, with an 73 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,600 emphasis on coding architecture and Tech leadership skills. 74 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:15,200 The lineup for this year is truly stellar and features many 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,500 Legends in Saw. Development names such as Robert 76 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:21,800 Uncle Bob. 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Most to you. 102 00:05:47,100 --> 00:05:50,300 It's free to join and you will find it easy to keep up with the 103 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:55,500 latest tech Trends. Hello, welcome back to another 104 00:05:55,500 --> 00:05:57,700 new episode of the tekhelet journal podcast. 105 00:05:57,700 --> 00:06:01,300 Today, we have a guest name for oil or Sheriff, he's actually an 106 00:06:01,300 --> 00:06:04,900 author of a few books that I have read books, such as the art 107 00:06:04,900 --> 00:06:07,400 of unit, testing elastic leadership. 108 00:06:07,500 --> 00:06:10,300 And he's also coming up with the new edition of The Art of unit 109 00:06:10,300 --> 00:06:13,700 testing and also pipeline driven organization which is still in 110 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:16,000 progress. Roy is someone who I have been 111 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:18,100 Trying to arrange this interview. 112 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:21,100 So I'm really glad to have this opportunity today to actually 113 00:06:21,100 --> 00:06:23,300 talk to him. So right when I read your book 114 00:06:23,300 --> 00:06:26,100 elastic leadership, I think it was one of the insightful book 115 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:29,400 that I read especially teaching about leadership stops. 116 00:06:29,700 --> 00:06:32,800 So hopefully, we can discuss a lot about that book today and 117 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:34,300 yeah, looking forward for this conversation. 118 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,100 Wonderful. I'm really happy to be here and 119 00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:40,700 looking forward to a stimulating conversation, by the way, I 120 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:42,800 really hope this is going to be like a two-sided thing. 121 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:45,300 Not just me talking but having a real conversation. 122 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:48,900 They're happy to have that, but first of all, I always like to 123 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:51,600 start my conversation by asking the guests to share more about 124 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,000 their career. So any kind of highlights or 125 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,300 turning points that you think with to share with the audience 126 00:06:56,300 --> 00:06:58,500 here. Well, I've been in the software 127 00:06:58,500 --> 00:07:01,700 business over 20 years, so they've been a lot of turning 128 00:07:01,700 --> 00:07:04,000 points. I started as a software 129 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:08,100 developer, and I went through a lot of different roles from Team 130 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:11,600 lead. Architect CTO director, these 131 00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:15,700 last past few years working as a consultant also working as 132 00:07:15,900 --> 00:07:18,900 Entrepreneur these days as well and also working in different 133 00:07:18,900 --> 00:07:21,800 countries. I'm born and raised in Israel 134 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:26,400 but we lived in Scandinavia for a few years and then we lived in 135 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,100 the US for a few years. In both the East and West both 136 00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:33,000 in New Jersey and then California and then coming back 137 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:35,100 to Israel. And I also have three kids, 138 00:07:35,100 --> 00:07:37,200 which also is any turning points there. 139 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:42,100 So, if I try to talk about the little bit of career journey, I 140 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:45,600 could say that there are a few big turning points for a few. 141 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:47,400 Years. I was working as a software 142 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:51,100 developer, and at some point, I really got interested in Kent 143 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:54,400 Beck's book, test driven development by example, I 144 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,400 learned it and I practiced it and I tried to experiment with 145 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,700 it, with my team. It was the beginning of a 146 00:08:00,707 --> 00:08:03,800 turning point but the real Turning Point came in when I 147 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:08,500 started organizing an open, kind of a two to three hour, 148 00:08:08,500 --> 00:08:11,200 workshops hackathons for the community, kind of like a 149 00:08:11,200 --> 00:08:14,600 meet-up, but before meetups existed before the meetup.com 150 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:17,000 existed and that was Test-driven development. 151 00:08:17,300 --> 00:08:20,300 I got quite a bit of people jumping into that stuff that 152 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:23,800 really got me thinking that I could make this like a full time 153 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,700 thing. So I went to my boss and I said, 154 00:08:25,700 --> 00:08:29,300 Hey, listen, I think I can organize training and actually 155 00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:33,400 ask for money for these things and my boss came with horrible 156 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,799 terms, so I said, okay, no, thank you. 157 00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:38,900 And I decided that I'm going to become a consultant and I'm 158 00:08:38,900 --> 00:08:41,000 going to start doing this training and Consulting about 159 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:44,200 this stuff full-time. I found my first customer by 160 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,600 speaking at a meet up. Then he was called the user 161 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,400 group and I help be part of like a dotnet beat up. 162 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:53,900 Then later, I created the agile, Israel user group and I found my 163 00:08:53,900 --> 00:08:56,600 first customers in those. Meetups in those, these are 164 00:08:56,608 --> 00:08:59,700 groups once I had the first customer, which was a big 165 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:03,100 customer for me alone. I started down that path. 166 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:06,400 So I had to clean years of just working with one or two 167 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,400 customers, learning a lot, making a lot of mistakes as a 168 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,600 consultant. So I've been on and off as a 169 00:09:11,608 --> 00:09:13,600 consultant for the past 20 years as well. 170 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:16,900 And I find that I've been working Two or three years as a 171 00:09:16,900 --> 00:09:20,000 hired person and then two or three years as a consultant Etc. 172 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,900 So I'll dive into something, I'll learn a lot of stuff. 173 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:25,400 They'll go out and I'll start spreading across multiple 174 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,600 organizations, and come back in. So, to Turning Point was 175 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:30,200 realizing, I can do this training. 176 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,100 Stuff enjoying it. The other turning point, when I 177 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:35,500 was first, looking at the first check, I ever got from the 178 00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:39,500 customer realizing that I'm making much more money doing the 179 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:43,100 Consulting, and the value that I bring is higher because 180 00:09:43,100 --> 00:09:45,900 customers are willing to pay much more per hour for My 181 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:48,500 services. And so that was a huge turning 182 00:09:48,500 --> 00:09:51,800 point because I decided I'm not going to do just hired from that 183 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,600 point on, I'm going to do whatever works best for me, 184 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,900 which is a hybrid approach and ever since then it's been 185 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,200 training and then writing books about that training and then 186 00:10:01,300 --> 00:10:04,400 speak and conferences about those books and then Consulting 187 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,600 about those books and then moving on to the next thing 188 00:10:07,700 --> 00:10:11,300 learning that stuff, practicing it writing about it, in blogs, 189 00:10:11,300 --> 00:10:14,000 writing about it in books, doing consulting about it, blah blah. 190 00:10:14,300 --> 00:10:17,200 So it's like this cycle. I seem to be going through which 191 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:18,400 I'm still going through right now. 192 00:10:18,700 --> 00:10:21,100 If you ask me I'm always in the middle of like two or three 193 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:25,100 Cycles with two or three pieces of parallel skills that I'm 194 00:10:25,100 --> 00:10:28,600 either learning or teaching. And so there's always something 195 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:32,300 to fall back on as a consultant. If I'd stayed with test-driven 196 00:10:32,300 --> 00:10:36,100 development in unit testing it some point it would run out 197 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:38,100 basically. I mean there's always working 198 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:41,400 that but you have to be able to reinvent yourself and learn 199 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,000 these things and grow and then you bring more value. 200 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:47,600 So these days I'm deaf. Lately I have a lot of different 201 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:51,300 facets that I can talk about in consult about and all these 202 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:53,200 things are related to things that I really, really care 203 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:55,800 about. So to me, they're like a Marvel, 204 00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:59,300 I'm see you, each facet is a specific skill that I wish 205 00:10:59,300 --> 00:11:03,000 developers had and then I learned that than that, I bring 206 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,200 that, and then I work in it. Etcetera. 207 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,700 Etcetera. Thanks so much for sharing your 208 00:11:07,700 --> 00:11:09,400 journey. I think it's a really admirable 209 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,200 right? The way you kind of like change 210 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,500 facets, Mike from being as an employee to be a consultant and 211 00:11:14,500 --> 00:11:18,400 you switch moat Ben employee and Consulting and then you find the 212 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,400 passion of doing training and Consulting writing books, and 213 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,000 things like that. And you mention about also 214 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,900 expanding yourself Beyond just tdd or unit testing. 215 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:31,200 You also wrote books about leadership pipeline driven and 216 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,700 all those stuffs. So today, we are not going to 217 00:11:33,700 --> 00:11:36,000 cover about test-driven development, unfortunately. 218 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,200 But I would like to discuss a lot more about the elastic 219 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,400 leadership book. And maybe when we have time, we 220 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,600 will discuss about pipeline driven organization. 221 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:45,600 So, when I read your book, as I mentioned in the beginning, 222 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:48,500 Genin it was really insightful especially if you're working in 223 00:11:48,500 --> 00:11:51,400 a may be non performing teams or in a start-up where everything 224 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:54,600 is like chaos. Tell us more why you started 225 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:55,900 writing this book in the first place. 226 00:11:56,100 --> 00:11:58,900 What kind of problems do you see maybe in the technical world or 227 00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:01,000 maybe Engineers for them to read this book? 228 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:05,100 The book elastic leadership is based on a blog post on a Blog 229 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:07,600 that I started writing. When I start becoming a team 230 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,500 lead as I was growing as a team lead, I would document my own 231 00:12:11,500 --> 00:12:14,900 realizations about things and it slowly over time a few years it 232 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:17,200 grew and grew. And I decided I'm going to turn 233 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:19,700 it into a book. I wasn't sure what the book name 234 00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:22,200 would be. And I asked Kevin any, who's a 235 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:24,900 good friend of mine and a speaker and author. 236 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,200 I was thinking about calling the book, 97 things. 237 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:31,700 Every team leader, should know, but eventually I called it 238 00:12:31,700 --> 00:12:35,300 elastic leadership because I wanted to come up with a term 239 00:12:35,500 --> 00:12:37,900 that describes, this kind of framework that I'm coming up 240 00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:39,900 with. So elastic leadership is based 241 00:12:39,900 --> 00:12:41,800 of all the mistakes that I've ever made. 242 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,000 As a team lead, I believe that the best way to learn something 243 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,100 is through making mistakes. So I can tell you, I've learned 244 00:12:48,100 --> 00:12:50,400 quite a lot. I think that people should 245 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:52,400 realize everybody in this industry. 246 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,000 Doesn't really know what they're doing. 247 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,400 They might have more experience, doesn't mean that they know what 248 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:59,300 they are doing. They might have had some 249 00:12:59,300 --> 00:13:01,700 success. Some failure though, some things 250 00:13:01,700 --> 00:13:04,600 that they know have worked or have not but does not mean that 251 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,700 they know what to do next. And so as a journey is a team 252 00:13:07,700 --> 00:13:10,900 lead, there's been a lot of that stuff trying to come up with 253 00:13:10,900 --> 00:13:13,900 different ideas. I'll give it a simple example. 254 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:17,600 My first team I was Very much a command-and-control either. 255 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,700 So I believed in protecting my team and having that bubble 256 00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:23,100 where people are not allowed to contact the team. 257 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,000 And I believe that was doing the absolute right thing because the 258 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,900 team was kind of in a chaotic State all that stuff. 259 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,000 And I believe that if you're not going to control, what the team 260 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,700 is, who the team talks to them, everyone will control the team 261 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:37,700 instead of you and that seemed to have worked for a while. 262 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:40,700 And then I spoke about it at a conference. 263 00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:44,300 I spoke about how you should be able to quickly take charge of a 264 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:48,000 team and stuff like that. At the end of The Talk, this 265 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,100 scrum master. I think, approach me the end, he 266 00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,300 said this is the opposite of everything I ever teach people, 267 00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:55,900 which is self-organizing teams and they should learn to make 268 00:13:55,900 --> 00:13:57,900 mistakes on their own and all that stuff. 269 00:13:58,200 --> 00:13:59,700 What don't you believe in that stuff? 270 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:02,600 And I said, well actually I do I think that's really good ideas 271 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,600 and he said well how can you believe that then also believe 272 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,700 in what you just taught which is if you take control and be a bit 273 00:14:08,700 --> 00:14:11,600 more command and control and I really thought about I didn't 274 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,500 have a really good answer. I thought about how can those 275 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:17,200 two situations that? List in the same time in the 276 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,900 world. That was a big realization for 277 00:14:19,900 --> 00:14:24,400 me is that they don't the same team can have different contexts 278 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:27,700 in one context. The team might be in what we 279 00:14:27,700 --> 00:14:30,900 would call survival mode in which they don't have time to 280 00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:32,700 learn. They are too busy, fighting 281 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:34,300 fires. They don't have time to make 282 00:14:34,300 --> 00:14:37,400 mistakes and that situation command control. 283 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,800 Might be a really good idea to get out of there, but if your 284 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,200 team has time and they are learning and they want to learn, 285 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,300 they want to practice And God forbid that you should be a 286 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:49,500 command-and-control leader because they're not going to 287 00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,200 learn anything. So that's why I called elastic 288 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:54,800 leadership is because there are actually three different types 289 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,400 of leadership styles. We change them based on where 290 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,900 the team is at. So, one week that he might be in 291 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:03,000 survival mode, the next week to the two might be in learning 292 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,600 mode and the week after the team might be in self-organizing old 293 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:08,800 and then they might go back to survival mode. 294 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,500 We measure that by how much the team is able to cope with their 295 00:15:12,500 --> 00:15:16,300 current scenarios with the current context for Ample, if I 296 00:15:16,308 --> 00:15:19,700 have a team of developers that have been building websites 297 00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:23,100 hundred websites, the past year, and I'm asking him to build the 298 00:15:23,100 --> 00:15:25,300 next one. Just another website. 299 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:28,000 It's very likely that they're going to be much more of a self 300 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,700 organizing team. They know what to do. 301 00:15:29,700 --> 00:15:31,100 They know how to solve these issues. 302 00:15:31,300 --> 00:15:35,100 They just need a goal really? But if I ask that same team to 303 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:38,900 connect my glass of water to my laptop and they don't have the 304 00:15:38,900 --> 00:15:41,800 skills to do it. And I immediately said, okay, we 305 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,600 have a deadline and we need this by that or at least we need 306 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,200 something that team would immediately be in what we call 307 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,400 survival mode because they're probably overcommitted. 308 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:50,900 They don't even know how long things take. 309 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:54,200 They don't have time to learn and they might not even be able 310 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,900 to discuss with me. How to change the situation in 311 00:15:57,900 --> 00:16:00,100 that situation. I'll command and control 312 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:03,100 leadership might work, but in the other situation, a self 313 00:16:03,100 --> 00:16:05,500 organizing team. It's really best to leave the 314 00:16:05,500 --> 00:16:07,500 team mostly alone. Not tell them how to do their 315 00:16:07,500 --> 00:16:09,600 job, but just tell them what you need done. 316 00:16:09,900 --> 00:16:12,400 They'll figure it out. And in the middle between those 317 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:14,300 two extremes, there is the learning mode. 318 00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,900 That's the team that It's time to learn is actively engaging 319 00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:20,500 and learning. While the example that I use is 320 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,500 imagine that you have a kid and you're teaching your kid, how to 321 00:16:24,500 --> 00:16:27,800 tie their shoes for the first time, how long and how many 322 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,800 times will they need to practice before they tie their shoes? 323 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,200 As fast as you, the answer is not going to be five minutes, 324 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,900 probably not even five days. It's going to be a long while a 325 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:41,400 few good weeks, maybe even months, we're slowly practice 326 00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,700 and it's very frustrating. This is what learning really 327 00:16:44,700 --> 00:16:47,400 feels like. But in many situations, we go to 328 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:50,800 a company and we say okay those people don't know how to work in 329 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:52,900 tdd is. So let's just give them an extra 330 00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:57,600 20% of time but truly what we should be looking at is five or 331 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,400 ten times more time to actually do and make mistakes and learn 332 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:03,900 things the hard way, or at least a month or two. 333 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,099 So learning, what is actually very difficult to be in because 334 00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:10,599 learning mode requires that you re estimate, some of the stuff 335 00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,700 that you're working on so that you can redo it. 336 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:14,700 But this time with learning building. 337 00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,800 So with the Six. But if you're in survival mode, 338 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:19,400 you have to realize you're in survival mode. 339 00:17:19,500 --> 00:17:22,599 And then the only way to get out of survival mode, is to make 340 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,700 time to learn. The only way to make time to 341 00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:26,800 learn, is you have to look at the current commitments, and 342 00:17:26,808 --> 00:17:29,900 then remove, whatever you can and finish, whatever you cannot 343 00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:31,800 move. And within a month, you move 344 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,800 into learning mode and we estimate things. 345 00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:37,200 So, this type of framework, these are things that I wish I 346 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:41,200 knew, or someone ever told me as a team lead, because I didn't 347 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,600 even think about those things. Those are the things that nobody 348 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,000 really talks about. It's the glue between In people, 349 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,900 it is not scrum, it is not agile, it's not all those 350 00:17:49,900 --> 00:17:52,100 things. These are specifically methods 351 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:56,400 for handling reality and so a way to grow self-organizing 352 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,000 teams, that's the way I think about it. 353 00:17:58,700 --> 00:18:01,500 So it's very interesting when I also read about these three 354 00:18:01,500 --> 00:18:04,300 phases of the team, right? Because as you mentioned, a team 355 00:18:04,300 --> 00:18:06,700 has a different context. And one day they could be in 356 00:18:06,700 --> 00:18:08,400 survival mode. The next day they could be in 357 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,100 learning mode. The next video could be 358 00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:12,900 self-organizing, but then, they can change to another mode. 359 00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,500 And as a team lead, sometimes we are not trained. 360 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:17,600 To understand about this context. 361 00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:19,900 And in the first place you mentioned that you wish, you 362 00:18:19,900 --> 00:18:21,400 know, all of these things, right? 363 00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:24,400 Because many times as a team late, especially the new ones 364 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,600 who just got promoted from being a good. 365 00:18:26,600 --> 00:18:28,300 I see, they just got promoted as a team. 366 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:31,300 They don't understand this kind of nuances in your book. 367 00:18:31,300 --> 00:18:34,300 We actually have this really interesting, Manifesto A team 368 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:37,200 leader, Manifesto. Can you tell us more about this 369 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,600 Manifesto and what should be the responsibility of a team lead 370 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,100 from your view? So the manifesto is basically. 371 00:18:44,100 --> 00:18:47,200 It's a compass. My realization for myself is 372 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:48,700 that as a team lead, I have no idea. 373 00:18:48,700 --> 00:18:52,700 If I'm doing the right thing, I need a moral compass something 374 00:18:52,700 --> 00:18:56,900 that when I'm dealing with a dilemma, it allows me to decide 375 00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:59,700 which choice to make. If someone comes to me and says 376 00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:01,700 that they want me to help them with the problem. 377 00:19:01,900 --> 00:19:04,400 Should I let them solve the problem alone? 378 00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:07,300 Should I solve it for them? Should I do something else 379 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:10,000 instead? So the elastic Leadership Model 380 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,300 is a moral compass. And The manifesto is basically a 381 00:19:13,308 --> 00:19:16,000 way to explain it. The idea of the manifesto is to 382 00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,500 say here is One World View, and that world view is that as a 383 00:19:20,500 --> 00:19:25,200 team leader, my job or the way I measure myself is that I make 384 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,000 myself unneeded. So every day or every week I 385 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,100 look and I try to even measure how much do people need me to 386 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:36,400 solve their problems or can they start solving their problems 387 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,200 without me? If they can solve more problems 388 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,700 without me this week than they did last week that I'm doing. 389 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,100 I'm a better job. So that's one way to measure. 390 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:47,300 Is that slowly over time you are needed less and less, which is 391 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:49,800 completely crazy. Because a lot of people want to 392 00:19:49,808 --> 00:19:52,300 be needed by me, that's kind of your job. 393 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,400 Won't you get fired if you're not needed? 394 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,500 And the answer is, you will actually become more successful 395 00:19:58,500 --> 00:20:00,200 and more valuable to your company. 396 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,700 If you are no longer a bottleneck for the people that 397 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:07,000 are working with you and under you, which means that every time 398 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:10,000 you are, the only person that is able to make a decision or that 399 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,200 needs to be consultant with or that Has the experience to give 400 00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:16,200 an opinion what to do something and people will not move 401 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,000 forward. Without you, you're essentially 402 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,400 bottleneck. Another way to say it is that 403 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,500 you are a bus factor. I love. 404 00:20:22,500 --> 00:20:25,200 People have already heard this, but let me just Define it. 405 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:29,200 A bus factor is the number of people that have to get hit by a 406 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,300 bus for the team to stop working. 407 00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,400 Now, bus factor of 1 means you have oldest person in the team 408 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,200 that if that person doesn't come into work tomorrow, the team is 409 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,200 screwed, they don't know how to do that specific person's job. 410 00:20:40,500 --> 00:20:44,600 So a person that knows how to build works or the manager or 411 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:48,100 the leader that is able to sign or make a specific decision or 412 00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:51,300 an architect that has to sign off on something etc. 413 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:54,200 Etc, etc. So, as a team lead, I want to 414 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,800 remove myself as a bottleneck over time, more and more. 415 00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:59,600 We also believe a few different qualities. 416 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,300 We believe that it's just as important to understand how 417 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:04,500 people work instead of just machines. 418 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:06,800 So we need to understand how people working consent 419 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:09,600 psychology a little bit because part of our job is working with 420 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,600 people guides and that's more important. 421 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,100 Because computers do exactly what you tell them. 422 00:21:14,500 --> 00:21:17,000 In fact, if you could get rid of people in the software business, 423 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,200 everything would be much easier we can't unfortunately. 424 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,400 So, you have to understand people better. 425 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,600 Another thing is that we adopt a leadership style that keeps 426 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,400 changing instead of a 1 style, one size fits all, which means 427 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,100 that we look at the current faces of the team, and we see 428 00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:36,500 where the team is, and we change our leadership style based on 429 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:39,000 it. And lastly, is we believe that 430 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:44,300 people need to grow under Our care, which means that one way 431 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:46,700 to remove yourselves about the mic is to grow the people that 432 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:49,400 are working with you. So they learn new things. 433 00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,500 So, they learn how to think. Like, you think they don't need 434 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:54,600 you and that's a very powerful feeling. 435 00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:57,400 So growing people and challenging them to get out of 436 00:21:57,400 --> 00:21:59,700 their comfort zone. Would be one of those things. 437 00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:02,300 That's, a very difficult thing for a lot of leaders to do, 438 00:22:02,500 --> 00:22:05,300 because sometimes people don't like being out of their comfort 439 00:22:05,300 --> 00:22:07,700 zone, but if you're trying to get your team into learning 440 00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:09,600 mode, the whole point of learning mode, is that you feel 441 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,000 uncomfortable. The whole point is that Trying 442 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:14,300 to learn things that you've never done before, which feels 443 00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:17,300 really ring sometimes frustrating or annoying. 444 00:22:17,700 --> 00:22:20,900 So do all these things together. They form dist moral compass 445 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,600 every day. Am I a bottleneck more or less? 446 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,200 A my challenging people do. I pay attention to human 447 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:29,400 interactions and understanding how they happen. 448 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,400 Am I changing my leadership style all those things together? 449 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:35,900 That's the manifesto really. So when I read this Manifesto 450 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:39,600 definitely strikes me because as a team lead, sometimes we tend 451 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:41,600 to focus more on like project staff. 452 00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:43,800 Yes. And also hitting the deadlines 453 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,900 making sure the code quality works and things like that. 454 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:49,100 Sometimes we tend to forget the people aspect or for example, 455 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,400 changing our leadership style as well, which I think is really 456 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,200 crucial coming back to the three team faces and also you 457 00:22:55,200 --> 00:22:58,300 mentioned that the job of a teenage to grow the people and 458 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,400 to be able to remove themselves from the bus factor or the 459 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,000 bottle that equation. Right. 460 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,800 So I think this is also a very critical thing because yeah, as 461 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,300 you mentioned a lot of team leads probably think by being 462 00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:11,300 there's a leader. They are like the crucial person 463 00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:13,400 inside. He may be to make decisions or 464 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:16,600 maybe to advise people at things like that, but actually, a true 465 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:19,500 team lead that is successful is someone who can remove 466 00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,600 themselves out of the equation, more and more. 467 00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:23,200 So, thanks for sharing about this. 468 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,800 I also like this one phrase that I read in your book, let me read 469 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,800 it. There are no experts, there is 470 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,400 only us, I think many times in any kind of team. 471 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,500 We all aspire to have someone who can come and save us. 472 00:23:35,500 --> 00:23:38,200 Maybe consultant, maybe from books, for whoever thought 473 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,300 leaders tell us more about this phrase. 474 00:23:40,300 --> 00:23:42,900 Because when I read it is really Testing, they are not expressed 475 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:48,300 as only as my friend, Jeremy, the Miller at order that one of 476 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:51,100 the conference's, the old at that conference. 477 00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:53,500 I think I really like that sentence. 478 00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:56,100 It goes to what I said at the beginning is that nobody really 479 00:23:56,100 --> 00:23:58,100 knows what they're doing. There are no extras. 480 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,600 There's only us, is kind of a lonely feeling because it means 481 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:03,700 that at some point, you're going to have to make your own 482 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:06,500 decisions. There will never be the person 483 00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,300 that knows exactly the answer. Those that tell you that they 484 00:24:09,300 --> 00:24:11,600 know exactly the answer there, probably. 485 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,200 Sing something because it's like that effect. 486 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,000 I don't remember the name of it. Is that the more that you think? 487 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,100 You know, the more you realize how much you don't really know 488 00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:24,200 managers in different capacities with different experiences and 489 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,800 leaders are still winging it, they're still trying things at 490 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,700 some point. You cannot just wait for someone 491 00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:33,500 to tell you what is the right thing to do. 492 00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:37,000 Especially if you're our leader that day will come and hopefully 493 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:40,200 it's come soon, is that you will have to make a decision and you 494 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,100 will have zero idea What's going to happen so you can try to 495 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,300 delay the decision. You can try to learn more about 496 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:49,000 it. You'll try to make it an 497 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:51,900 educated guess but at some point you're going to have to jump 498 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:56,700 feet-first into that pool and actually try things and realize 499 00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:00,300 that there are no experts you will be in a room with other 500 00:25:00,300 --> 00:25:03,200 leaders in other managers and you'll talk to them about those 501 00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:05,500 things that you're experiencing what you're learning etcetera. 502 00:25:05,700 --> 00:25:09,300 And at some point you'll realize that they know just as much as 503 00:25:09,300 --> 00:25:11,500 you or they don't know just as much as you. 504 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:14,900 And they're all winging it, the higher up, you go. 505 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,500 The more surprised you will become just at how much people 506 00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,600 are really open to different ways of thinking. 507 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:25,700 If you realize this, then that gives a very strong indication 508 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:28,800 that if you come up with, some way to try to change a 509 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,700 situation, you might be surprised how much more people 510 00:25:31,700 --> 00:25:35,200 are willing to listen to you because we usually assume that 511 00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:38,000 oh, the people are leaders. They already know so much. 512 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:39,500 Why would they even listen to me? 513 00:25:39,900 --> 00:25:43,500 They are waiting and They can't wait for people to come up with 514 00:25:43,500 --> 00:25:46,400 more ideas so they can try them. Some people are afraid to try 515 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,500 ideas and that's a different problem, but no one really 516 00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:50,700 knows. No. 517 00:25:50,700 --> 00:25:54,000 One really has all the ideas, some people have tried some of 518 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:55,500 them. Some people might tell you, I 519 00:25:55,508 --> 00:25:59,100 tried this idea but don't think for a second that 50% of the 520 00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:02,400 time, if you're talking about someone, the other person might 521 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,100 have less experience than you. Even if they are at a higher 522 00:26:05,100 --> 00:26:07,700 rolled in you, they might even have less experience than you 523 00:26:07,700 --> 00:26:11,600 about that specific thing or problem or situation itself. 524 00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,100 Up. So if you feel like you have no 525 00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:16,600 idea what you're about to do, join the club. 526 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:20,300 Welcome everyone who writes books, like me and does 527 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:23,400 Consulting, and speaks at conferences, they don't know 528 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:26,400 more than you. They've just like talking about 529 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,800 what they've learned on their own, the hard way and they just 530 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,800 seem like they know what they're talking about. 531 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,200 So this elastic leadership stuff. 532 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:38,100 It is a thing that seems to have worked for me and I completely 533 00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:40,500 made it up. It is a framework that I decided 534 00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:41,800 to call last week leadership. Mmm. 535 00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:45,800 Who the hell am I to create this state who gave me permission to 536 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,200 write this thing? No nobody you can go ahead and 537 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,300 create your own framework talk about it. 538 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,700 The thing that really brings value to me is not that I 539 00:26:54,708 --> 00:26:57,300 created a framework. What brings value is that I 540 00:26:57,300 --> 00:27:01,100 talked about it and I explained it and then I realize how much I 541 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:04,100 was wrong and then people talk to me and I learn something. 542 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:07,400 So if you want the right answer, give a wrong answer. 543 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,200 One of the best ways to learn is to put what you think your 544 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,300 knowledge Out there and then see what the world throws back at 545 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:16,400 you to me, that's always been my motto. 546 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,700 Hey, I tried learning test driven development. 547 00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:20,700 Let's see, let's write a blog about at least speak at a 548 00:27:20,700 --> 00:27:24,200 conference, and then suddenly, you get, sometimes, slaps in the 549 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:25,900 face. Like that doesn't make any 550 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:27,700 sense. Like that guy who spoke to me 551 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:30,200 about how can you talk about command and control. 552 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,300 But we also want to do this and that was after I did the talk, 553 00:27:33,500 --> 00:27:35,900 it's not before, but I already did the talk. 554 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,300 And then after I talked, I realized, yeah, I completely 555 00:27:38,300 --> 00:27:40,800 missed this entire part. So when you see someone speak on 556 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,400 a stage, Don't assume that they're speaking because they've 557 00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,600 figured it out there speaking and they're in the process of 558 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,000 figuring it out. And if the you talk to them 559 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,100 maybe in three months, they're talking might be different. 560 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,200 If they never change their talk, they're not learning anything 561 00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,100 new and I would trust them less for real. 562 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:02,300 You want to look for people that keep changing their mind because 563 00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:05,000 it means they're learning something like the first version 564 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,700 of art of unit testing is completely different from the 565 00:28:07,700 --> 00:28:11,900 third version completely like. I removed some chapters Some 566 00:28:11,900 --> 00:28:13,400 things that I don't like anymore. 567 00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,300 Something that I changed in the second edition and they're not 568 00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:19,600 like small stuff. Anyway, something state which is 569 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,300 good, but some things did not. So I think that's a very apt 570 00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:25,900 advice for a lot of team leaders because sometimes when they are 571 00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:30,000 new in the job sometimes they are like indecisive what should 572 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,700 I do in this kind of situations and they wish somebody could 573 00:28:32,700 --> 00:28:36,200 tell them exactly what to do. I believe this is not an advice 574 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,400 for people not to ask for help if they need help but it's more 575 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,300 about. Yeah sometimes you just need to 576 00:28:41,300 --> 00:28:42,100 believe. Even yourself. 577 00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:45,200 Maybe you do research gather opinions, from field other 578 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,000 people, right? But at the end of the day, 579 00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:50,000 there's only asked, there will be no experts so to speak to 580 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,300 come and help and solve the problems for you. 581 00:28:52,300 --> 00:28:54,900 Right. I would even say you don't even 582 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,700 have to believe in yourself. I would say, the only thing you 583 00:28:57,700 --> 00:29:00,700 should believe is it you will make mistakes and you have to 584 00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:03,500 get those mistakes out of the way as soon as possible. 585 00:29:03,700 --> 00:29:06,200 The only way to get that out of the way is to actually go ahead 586 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,200 and do them. You don't know what they are. 587 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,400 So the more decision do you start making it? 588 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:13,500 Actually, they're a bit scary. The better. 589 00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:16,400 You will become the more experience, you will become and 590 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,900 you will learn. Let's say, for example, you have 591 00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:21,800 to do a serious one-on-one conversation with the person in 592 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,100 your team. It's really scary and there's 593 00:29:24,100 --> 00:29:27,000 million ways to go about it. You don't have to research the 594 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,700 million ways to go about it. You take a day, you maybe do a 595 00:29:30,700 --> 00:29:32,600 bit of research and then you just do it. 596 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:34,600 You do it. Not because you think you'll do, 597 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:36,200 okay? You do it because you have no 598 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,300 idea what's going to happen and you have to find out what's at 599 00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:41,400 the end of the talk. What will you find it? 600 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,900 The end of that conversation and you might find. 601 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,700 Hey, that was easier than I thought or I thought it would go 602 00:29:46,700 --> 00:29:48,100 this way. Need to completely went to 603 00:29:48,108 --> 00:29:50,500 different way. Or I saw that, I will not be 604 00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:53,100 able to say something. And I did say something, I saw 605 00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:55,500 the person will say x and they said why? 606 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,300 Or what? I thought would happen. 607 00:29:57,300 --> 00:29:59,300 Did happen. Whatever it is. 608 00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:02,900 You have learned from that. So, the next one on one will be 609 00:30:02,900 --> 00:30:05,600 better from your point of view, that's the important part. 610 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,000 So, don't think that you will get everything right. 611 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,500 In fact, you will get most things wrong and then slowly, 612 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,100 Over time, you will get the fuse things less wrong because you 613 00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:17,600 already made the mistake. It's like touching a hot fire. 614 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:19,800 The second time you probably won't touch it, right? 615 00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:23,100 But you had to touch it the first time so just get it out of 616 00:30:23,108 --> 00:30:26,000 the weeds, the first dent in the car, but there's a hundred of 617 00:30:26,008 --> 00:30:28,000 them. I really love this advice. 618 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:30,900 So thanks again for giving this plot because I think a lot of 619 00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:33,600 people in the tech especially the engineers, we always have 620 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,200 this imposter syndrome, and we think that other people might 621 00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,200 know better than us, the speaker's, the author's, maybe 622 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,200 the gas in the podcast, and things like that, right? 623 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,600 But, Actually it's not true. Sometimes we all just winging it 624 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,500 so to speak or maybe we just give our opinions at that point 625 00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:49,100 in time which might change in the future. 626 00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,200 So maybe if we can go back a little bit to the tree team 627 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,000 faces, you mentioned about survival mode and you mentioned 628 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,100 the time when the team doesn't have learning time. 629 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:01,100 I would imagine this kind of a chaotic team where you are 630 00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:04,300 firefighting solving problems incidents and things like that. 631 00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:07,600 So, tell us more why it is important to have learning time 632 00:31:07,700 --> 00:31:10,600 and when you are in survival mode, how can you create more 633 00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:11,400 learning time? I think. 634 00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,000 Probably in the bind of a lot of people so the way that you 635 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,600 create learning time. So if you're in the situation 636 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,000 where everyone is running around like headless chickens and you 637 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,400 just victim fires. How do you move from that into 638 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,000 learning? What the answer is. 639 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,700 First of all, is that the mode of the leadership changes to 640 00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:30,800 more thematic control? Because the sentencing your head 641 00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:34,700 should be, when the ship is sinking, the captain doesn't 642 00:31:34,700 --> 00:31:37,300 call a meeting. The captain gives orders the 643 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:40,400 orders might be, everybody does what they're best at for the 644 00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,900 next month, but, Then during that month, you can look at all 645 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:47,700 do current commitments, see whichever ones are prioritized 646 00:31:47,700 --> 00:31:50,900 and will fit in that month. Then everything that doesn't fit 647 00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:53,000 you. Re-estimate you go to your head 648 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,700 attachment and in your leadership and you say we are 649 00:31:55,700 --> 00:31:58,500 currently in a death spiral. If we keep going down that 650 00:31:58,500 --> 00:32:02,100 route, we're gonna be in a worse situation in three months and so 651 00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:04,200 here's the way that I intend to get out of it. 652 00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:07,200 For the next month we're going to finish whatever we can finish 653 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,400 from these stories after that everything doesn't fit in that 654 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,000 month. Mate to three or four or even 655 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,500 five times longer prioritize and then start working on it. 656 00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:19,000 And that's the way that we gain our sanity back. 657 00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:21,400 Now, some people might be listening to this and saying, 658 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,200 he'll never because they're not going to feel safe saying that 659 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:27,300 to their management. Some people will be safe saying 660 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,000 that to management, they just don't know if they're just 661 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,100 afraid. One of the things that I highly 662 00:32:31,100 --> 00:32:34,300 recommend, there's a book by jury Weinberg called, becoming a 663 00:32:34,308 --> 00:32:38,500 tech leader, and he talks about the idea that leadership Done, 664 00:32:38,500 --> 00:32:39,900 Right? Is a tough job. 665 00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:42,200 So if you're doing it right, It's difficult. 666 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:44,500 If it's not difficult, you're not doing it right in the other 667 00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:48,400 words, a lot of leaders like to take the money but not do all 668 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,900 the difficult Parts. What are the difficult Parts? 669 00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:53,900 The difficult parts are working with people telling people 670 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:57,000 things that they don't want to hear changing and looking 671 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,000 sometimes weak in front of others, stuff like that. 672 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,100 So what I'm suggesting here is being very fragile and putting 673 00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:06,400 yourself out there and saying we need to change the way we're 674 00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,500 working. You have to convince management 675 00:33:08,500 --> 00:33:10,300 and that's might be scary for a lot of people. 676 00:33:10,500 --> 00:33:12,700 That's exactly. You should probably do it 677 00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:15,400 because it's scary, because there are two things at play 678 00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,700 here. First, this is absolutely needed 679 00:33:17,700 --> 00:33:20,100 for your team, so you should do it for the team because that's 680 00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:23,000 what you get paid to do. Is to do all the tough parts to 681 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:24,900 talk all the tough conversations. 682 00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:27,900 If you're not going to say, nobody's going to save your 683 00:33:27,900 --> 00:33:29,500 managers. Don't know what the right thing 684 00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:31,600 to do is they expect you to know. 685 00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:34,000 Otherwise you're just taking the money not doing the difficult 686 00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:36,400 part. The second thing is it, by doing 687 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,700 the scary thing, you will become a better leader because you have 688 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:42,000 to be able to be in a place where where you're not 689 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:44,100 comfortable to be in a place where you're doing something 690 00:33:44,100 --> 00:33:47,100 that scares you because you're also going to be asking the 691 00:33:47,100 --> 00:33:50,800 people under you to do those same things, you will ask them 692 00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:54,000 also to be uncomfortable. As you go into learning mode, 693 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,400 you might ask them to do things that they've never done before 694 00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,800 Sarah and when that time comes, it has to be from an experience. 695 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:04,000 You can't demand it from somebody but not demand it from 696 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,700 yourself. You have to come from a place of 697 00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:09,600 knowledge so you'll know how difficult it feels to do that 698 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,300 stuff and when you talk to them, Explain, they'll see that, you 699 00:34:13,300 --> 00:34:16,000 know what you're talking about. Otherwise you will be 700 00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:17,800 theoretical and people will see it. 701 00:34:18,199 --> 00:34:20,800 So it's good for you as a leader, to do the difficult 702 00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,100 stuff, because you want to ask your people to do difficult 703 00:34:23,100 --> 00:34:25,600 things. For example, back-end people to 704 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,199 work on, front-end or people that like to work alone to do 705 00:34:29,199 --> 00:34:33,100 pair programming or people to let go of some of their decision 706 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:35,600 and allow others to make some of those decisions blah blah blah 707 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:36,600 blah. There are a lot of different 708 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:40,800 ways so you have to be the example, you have to go and do 709 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:42,300 those things. Things and then you will see 710 00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:44,699 that it's not as bad as you thought it would be and then 711 00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:47,400 you'll know that it's okay to also ask it from them because 712 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,199 it's not as horrible as it feels like going to management in many 713 00:34:51,199 --> 00:34:55,000 ways can also be great for you because management will well 714 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,100 some of them. Well some of them won't some of 715 00:34:57,100 --> 00:34:59,500 them will appreciate the fact that someone is following me 716 00:34:59,508 --> 00:35:02,100 telling them the truth because you're probably already feel it, 717 00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:04,000 feel the truth. They already know what's 718 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,800 happening, but they feel like they can't trust the dev team up 719 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,000 until now, maybe. Now, finally, there's a team 720 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,400 they can trust. It's about building. 721 00:35:11,500 --> 00:35:14,500 In your relationship and some of them won't like it and that's 722 00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:16,900 fine too. But the reality will not change 723 00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:19,700 just because they don't like it. So at least you're going to have 724 00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,600 to say it because if you don't say it, the reality still sucks. 725 00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:25,000 And you're just saying that everything is great, which is 726 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,100 absolutely wrong. So the hammer will come, but 727 00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:29,800 you're just pushing it further away. 728 00:35:30,600 --> 00:35:32,900 Yeah, thanks for reminding. All these leaders who are 729 00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:35,700 probably in the survival mode. So, unique to take charge 730 00:35:35,900 --> 00:35:38,600 command and control, is the leadership style here, where you 731 00:35:38,607 --> 00:35:41,300 need to take charge and make sure that the team survives 732 00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,900 That's the first probably priority for you as a leader, 733 00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:46,100 right? Yeah, but not just survives as 734 00:35:46,100 --> 00:35:50,000 in stay in survival mode, and just be strong, because a lot of 735 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:52,700 leaders are actually very good at staying in survival mode. 736 00:35:52,900 --> 00:35:55,500 So, there is a big anti-pattern here, a lot of people. 737 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,600 The only thing that they know how to do is to work in survival 738 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,500 mode. Like they're great at waking up 739 00:36:00,500 --> 00:36:04,000 at 2 in the morning fixing the red-billed and doing all that 740 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,000 stuff. The idea is that you were taking 741 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,100 charge for a month. There is an end, there's an 742 00:36:10,100 --> 00:36:12,800 expiration date. And that is the scary part. 743 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,800 The expiration date is when you actually moving to re estimation 744 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:18,400 and learning what that's the difficult. 745 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:22,400 A lot of leaders are already working great in survival mode 746 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,900 but they perpetuate it. They never get out of it. 747 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,600 This is the problem. There's a cycle there. 748 00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:33,200 If you, I'm in survival mode and I keep fixing those fires, what 749 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,600 happens? I just have more fires because I 750 00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,000 didn't take care of the things that I should have taken care of 751 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,500 today, because I'm taking care of the things from three months 752 00:36:40,500 --> 00:36:42,600 ago. So, Oh the things from today are 753 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,000 going to be there in three months for me, so I'm going to 754 00:36:45,008 --> 00:36:47,600 be in a perpetual motion. You have more features that you 755 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,400 have to test and all that stuff. So things will just become worse 756 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,200 and worse. That's the problem. 757 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,800 It's not about managing yourself in survival mode, it's that in 758 00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,200 survival mode. You are a command and control 759 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,800 for a specific purpose. And that purpose is that you 760 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,900 want to get out of it. And how do you get out of it? 761 00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:07,000 Well, you tell people what to do with the work on this thing, but 762 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:11,200 you prioritize and you remove commitments and then you switch 763 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,000 into The learning mode, the removing some of the commitments 764 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,600 that to keep our tree estimating. 765 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,400 That's the key part. The command control is 766 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:21,300 absolutely necessary, but a lot of people already do it. 767 00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:23,700 If you're not doing it, command control is really, really 768 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:25,700 important. You cannot take a team that's in 769 00:37:25,700 --> 00:37:27,800 learning mode and then treat them as if they're 770 00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:30,800 self-organizing. For example, sending them on a 771 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:34,500 three-day tdd course and then expecting them to actually 772 00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:36,800 implement it, it's not going to work because we're going to go 773 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,900 and get right back to work. They're not going to have time 774 00:37:38,900 --> 00:37:41,300 to implement it. Don't expect anything to change. 775 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,500 JH or calling up a meeting and letting people make mistakes in 776 00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:46,200 learning mode. You've already made all the 777 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:47,800 mistakes. You don't have the bandwidth 778 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:49,600 from extra mistakes at this point. 779 00:37:49,700 --> 00:37:51,700 You need bandwidth for more mistakes. 780 00:37:52,500 --> 00:37:54,100 Thanks for sharing this anti-pattern, right? 781 00:37:54,100 --> 00:37:57,000 So the goal is not for you to perpetuate and keep standing 782 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,100 strong and be in the survival all the time. 783 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,800 I think the key definition in your book, you mention about 784 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,200 select time, right? So the team in survival mode, 785 00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:05,400 basically doesn't have select time. 786 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,700 He's all firefighting, it's all about resolving issues but the 787 00:38:08,707 --> 00:38:11,100 team in learning mode starts to have more slack time. 788 00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:13,600 So I think This is a good kind of like definition or variable 789 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:16,300 where you should aspire to have most like time for the team. 790 00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:19,500 So tell us more White's like button is very important why we 791 00:38:19,500 --> 00:38:21,400 should be in learning mode. White team should have select 792 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,000 time. Well, without slack, without 793 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,200 time to make mistakes, you can't learn anything. 794 00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:28,900 The whole idea is that it's teaching your kid. 795 00:38:28,900 --> 00:38:31,700 How to tie their shoelaces, you don't give them time. 796 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:33,500 You have to get into the car right now. 797 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,400 You're going to tie their shoelaces for them, that's okay. 798 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:38,700 If you're into rival mode, we get into the car. 799 00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:41,300 There's a lion chasing us. I'll tie your shoelaces. 800 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,400 Yes. But get into the car. 801 00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,000 There's no rush. I'll tie your shoelaces for you. 802 00:38:46,100 --> 00:38:49,300 That's a problem. The whole idea is that I want 803 00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:53,900 you to have time, maybe we'll leave 15 minutes early so that 804 00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:57,400 you have time to practice tying your shoelaces, that's what 805 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,100 slack time is. And you mentioned field 806 00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:02,900 techniques that lead us can do is buy, for example, doing more 807 00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:05,000 delegation. So, depending like what you 808 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,500 said, if the kids can start buying their own show, you give 809 00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:09,600 the time for them to learn how to do the stuff. 810 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:12,800 You also give some kind of like, Work personal commitment for 811 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,600 them to improve the other things about commitment language, 812 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,000 right? So how people should actually 813 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:20,200 commit to certain things that they want to do and then learn 814 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,500 from that experience? And then the Ultimate Team face 815 00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:25,000 is actually self-organizing mode. 816 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,200 So probably not many team leaders are in this mode I 817 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,000 believe because from my experience is really kind of 818 00:39:31,008 --> 00:39:34,300 like hard to have a fully self organized team, so maybe we can 819 00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:37,000 share a little bit more. How does self organized team 820 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,500 look like actually, what kind of differentiation that you can see 821 00:39:40,500 --> 00:39:44,500 from a Seeing team well of self-organizing teams I would 822 00:39:44,500 --> 00:39:47,900 say maybe 5% of the team's I've ever seen or self-organizing. 823 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,400 The idea in a self organizing team is the team knows how to 824 00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:53,700 solve any problem that they face. 825 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,600 So I think of them like a team of team leads, what is the team 826 00:39:57,600 --> 00:40:00,000 leader? Usually it's someone you can ask 827 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:02,800 almost any question and they'll find an answer for you. 828 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,000 So imagine you had a team of team leads that team is 829 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,200 self-organizing because whatever you throw at them. 830 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,000 Don't figure it out. That's the idea if your team 831 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,700 cannot Figure out some of the stuff then they're not. 832 00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:16,800 So for conniving, a self-organizing team, you want 833 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:20,700 usually just set goals, maybe have some metrics but you don't 834 00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:22,100 want to tell them how to do their job. 835 00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,600 So you might just want to influence the structure of the 836 00:40:24,607 --> 00:40:28,900 team by changing people or by changing the meetings that they 837 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:32,000 have, or by measuring differently. 838 00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:36,500 So you really use a lot of the influence forces that I mention 839 00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:40,000 in the book, The Influence horses are powerful thing for 840 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,900 both learning mode and For self-organizing mode. 841 00:40:42,900 --> 00:40:46,600 And those are personal influence forces, there's community. 842 00:40:46,700 --> 00:40:49,600 And then there is environmental, we're talking about 843 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,400 self-organizing teams. It's usually the last to. 844 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,500 So we have the people around people and we have the physical 845 00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:59,700 environment around people also, it could mean the rules and the 846 00:40:59,700 --> 00:41:03,000 reward systems or the punishment system in the company. 847 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:06,500 So changing metrics would be changing the reward system in 848 00:41:06,500 --> 00:41:08,800 the company. You're measured on code coverage 849 00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,200 is different than your measured on purpose. 850 00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,100 Coming or your measured on bugs found in production. 851 00:41:14,500 --> 00:41:17,600 So there's a lot of things that we can do without telling people 852 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:20,200 how to do something. But I would say that for most 853 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,400 leaders learning mode is more challenging than self-organizing 854 00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,400 mode because learning mode is really about. 855 00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:30,300 How do you spend time as a team continuously learning things 856 00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:32,600 that you're not comfortable learning and there are a lot of 857 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:34,900 different techniques. One of them is he said is 858 00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:38,000 commitment language. For example where you change the 859 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,200 way that you ask questions or speak? 860 00:41:41,300 --> 00:41:44,700 Seek to make sure that people are actually committed to doing 861 00:41:44,700 --> 00:41:47,800 something so you might use a specific type of language. 862 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:54,500 For example, I will do something by X instead of saying well I 863 00:41:54,500 --> 00:41:58,700 could or I can try or I might or let's try and blah blah blah 864 00:41:58,700 --> 00:42:02,300 blah, all those things they have this connotation where there is 865 00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:04,600 an exit Point. There's a door, almost a. 866 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:06,800 Well I did say let's try and didn't say we're actually going 867 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:11,000 to do it if you don't give a specific end date or time. 868 00:42:11,300 --> 00:42:13,300 Then again, yeah, said I'll do it. 869 00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:16,700 I didn't say when. So sometimes in learning mode, 870 00:42:16,700 --> 00:42:20,500 sometimes it's useful to ask people to frame what they're 871 00:42:20,500 --> 00:42:21,500 actually committing to and say, okay? 872 00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:25,400 So you will do what by when and then you get to see how people 873 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,400 react. Sometimes people will not be 874 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,000 able to promise anything because they don't know. 875 00:42:30,300 --> 00:42:32,500 And then you'll figure out that there is a problem with the 876 00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:35,100 commitment. For example, if I asked you to 877 00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:40,200 let's say, get a budget for a specific build machines, you 878 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,300 might say, okay, fine, I'll do it. 879 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:44,900 It or I'll give it a try and said, okay, so what will you do 880 00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:48,900 by when and that forces you into a very specific state of mind? 881 00:42:48,900 --> 00:42:51,600 Which is what is the physical thing that you can measure that 882 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,000 I will do? I will get the budget for this. 883 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,100 By the end of the week. Doesn't make any sense because 884 00:42:56,100 --> 00:42:58,600 you can't commit to it. And if you knew, if you told me 885 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:00,500 that I can say, well, you can't commit to it, right? 886 00:43:00,500 --> 00:43:03,500 It's like saying, I'll fix the bug in the next, three hours. 887 00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:05,700 You don't know how long it's going to take to fix the bug. 888 00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:08,700 So you can't commit to things that you don't control, but you 889 00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,000 can commit to an action that you do control. 890 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:11,800 For example. Temple. 891 00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,100 I will set up a meeting with the stakeholders. 892 00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,200 I'll send the invite by the end of today. 893 00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:19,400 That's the first step, that's an example of committing to 894 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,900 something you control. That's also the reason why I 895 00:43:21,908 --> 00:43:25,200 don't like where teams have commitments at the end of 896 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,000 Sprints. I don't like scrum in that 897 00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:30,600 regard because the team cannot commit to finish their entire 898 00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:32,600 features. They can commit to working their 899 00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,600 hardest. They commit to working specific 900 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,200 amount of hours a day. They cannot commit to finishing 901 00:43:37,200 --> 00:43:40,900 it because in reality there is a lot of stuff that happens before 902 00:43:40,900 --> 00:43:42,600 you can. Finish something which is not 903 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:45,400 under their control, customer might change their mind product. 904 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:48,500 Might not write things in the clear way or they'll work on 905 00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:49,700 something. A realize it's actually much 906 00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:52,400 more difficult. And then what happens is, if you 907 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,200 commit to something not under your control and then you fail, 908 00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:58,300 you feel like a failure even though it's not your fault. 909 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:00,200 And I was part of something like that. 910 00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,500 I was part of a team that was doing test-driven development 911 00:44:02,500 --> 00:44:06,100 and consistently. We would sail our commitments 912 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:08,300 who felt like idiots, every Sprint. 913 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:11,000 We did amazing work, but we felt like failures. 914 00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,400 So you get this huge moral problem, as well, so I don't 915 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,800 like to even call it. The commitments, there are 916 00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:22,500 goals, but goals can be set, and might not always achieved but 917 00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:25,800 can we commit to working at least X hours a day on this 918 00:44:25,800 --> 00:44:27,000 stuff? That's an example of a 919 00:44:27,008 --> 00:44:29,600 commitment or something that's under full year of control. 920 00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:32,600 So, in learning mode, there's a lot of that stuff going on which 921 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,900 is facing what they're actually doing trying to change that how 922 00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:38,700 we're actually changing it challenging people to change, 923 00:44:38,700 --> 00:44:40,600 how they work. Etc, etc, etc. 924 00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:43,500 So there's a lot of Coaching happening a lot of coaching and 925 00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:46,300 a lot of leaders are not good at coaching or they're afraid of 926 00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:48,100 doing it. Especially if they're coaching 927 00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:50,400 their friends, then it becomes really difficult. 928 00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,000 So I really left this commitment language sometimes when we ask 929 00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,700 people to do some stops, especially the things that they 930 00:44:56,700 --> 00:44:59,700 don't know how to do sometimes, they'll just give abstract. 931 00:44:59,700 --> 00:45:02,600 Okay, I'll do it. I'll promise to finish it but I 932 00:45:02,607 --> 00:45:05,600 think the moment when you set you need to ask person to do 933 00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,400 something by something and also to focus not on the lagging 934 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,000 indicators, right? So when you About finishing 935 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,800 something by end of the Sprint for example, sometimes that's 936 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,300 the lagging indicators. So something with that, we 937 00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:20,200 cannot control because for various factors, but maybe if we 938 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,200 can focus on the leading, indicators may be like, working 939 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:26,300 certain amount of hours on that particular problem, maybe that 940 00:45:26,300 --> 00:45:29,300 will get us to a better results. So I think that's a really 941 00:45:29,300 --> 00:45:31,900 insightful ideas for 4th, team leaders out there. 942 00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:35,000 If you want to coach your grow, your people try to use this 943 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,100 commitment language so that people bring up accountability 944 00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,900 in one aspect. And so make sure that they can 945 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,400 actually really think more before they promised something. 946 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,600 So I think that's always a key ideas here. 947 00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:48,700 Thanks for sharing that actually, so you mentioned about 948 00:45:48,700 --> 00:45:51,900 teams of team leads. So for people who are manager of 949 00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:54,600 managers, any kind of different things that they should think 950 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,200 about. I know that you have a line 951 00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,100 manager. Manifesto maybe can share a few 952 00:45:58,100 --> 00:45:59,900 tips for this manager of managers. 953 00:46:00,600 --> 00:46:04,100 I think it's some point, it's really more about bottlenecks. 954 00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,300 My job is always to remove myself as a bottleneck. 955 00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:12,400 So as a leader of developers, Maybe The bottleneck for some 956 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:14,700 decision-making. But if I'm a leader of team 957 00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:18,900 leads, then what is my role? How do I measure the answer 958 00:46:18,900 --> 00:46:21,500 again to me is? What is the thing that they need 959 00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:24,400 me for? Do they need meat for specific 960 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,900 planning purposes? Because I see something farther 961 00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:29,800 into the future. Do they need me for specific 962 00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,300 experience that I have again? I teach them how to work as if I 963 00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:36,900 was there, but I'm not. How would they do it? 964 00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:40,500 If they were me, that's the idea in developers. 965 00:46:40,700 --> 00:46:43,100 I'll teach A developer how to become a team lead? 966 00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:46,700 If I'm leading leads, then I'll teach the leads how to lead 967 00:46:46,700 --> 00:46:49,400 leads. I always go one level up. 968 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,400 So if someone architect I'll teach developer to think like an 969 00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,800 architect. If I'm a Chief Architect in 970 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,800 charge of multiple Architects, all teach my Architects at the 971 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,400 think like a Chief Architect and how to connect all the dots 972 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:03,400 across the company. So, whatever level you are, you 973 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,900 teach people how to be whatever it is that you are. 974 00:47:06,100 --> 00:47:09,700 That's how I think about very, or simply, the reason you were 975 00:47:09,700 --> 00:47:12,000 there is because there are some things that You're supposed to 976 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,500 be doing and sometimes by definition. 977 00:47:14,500 --> 00:47:17,100 You're supposed to be a bottleneck by definition, 978 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,600 because that's the company policy. 979 00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,200 But doesn't mean it has to be so, by definition, I have to be 980 00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:24,400 the one making a hiring decision, right? 981 00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:27,300 What happens if I'm not there, no one can. 982 00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:30,500 Hire doesn't make any sense? Should be able to hire people. 983 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:35,400 Now, maybe we come up with the protocol on how to hire is, so 984 00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:39,300 we have certainty or at least some numbers Etc, but whatever 985 00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:41,100 it is the same risk. Apply. 986 00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,300 Sighs if I'm not available. So that's what I want to work 987 00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:46,100 on. That's my bottleneck Theory. 988 00:47:46,300 --> 00:47:47,900 I want to remove myself was bottleneck. 989 00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:50,900 I just want to put a plug as well as, for your line manager, 990 00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:54,000 manifest or the goal is the overall long-term growth in 991 00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:57,500 skills of self-organization, and self-sufficiency in every 992 00:47:57,500 --> 00:48:00,100 employees under your management. So, like the things that we 993 00:48:00,100 --> 00:48:02,000 mentioned, right? Removing yourself as bottleneck, 994 00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,000 I think the goal here is to help her self-organizing demon 995 00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,600 self-sufficient, individuals. They should be able to solve 996 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,200 problems by themselves. So, thanks for sharing this 997 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:12,100 Vlog. I really like, All this elastic 998 00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:15,300 leadership concept. So as we reach the end of our 999 00:48:15,300 --> 00:48:17,800 conversation, I have one last question for you, which I 1000 00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,600 normally ask all my guests which is to share about three 1001 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,800 technical leadership wisdom. So think of it like advice or 1002 00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:27,000 tips that you want to give to maybe aspiring team leaders out 1003 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,500 there. What would be your three 1004 00:48:28,500 --> 00:48:30,000 technical leadership, wisdom Roy. 1005 00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:34,400 So assuming that you're able to and swimming that it's not going 1006 00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:36,400 to ruin your life. Take chances. 1007 00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:40,000 Some people cannot take a chance but take chances and try to do 1008 00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:42,100 things that are of your comfort zone. 1009 00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:44,900 Try to do more difficult conversations. 1010 00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:50,000 Second learn as much about people as you can read as much 1011 00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:53,900 as you can about, people read everything by Jerry Weinberg and 1012 00:48:53,900 --> 00:48:57,800 Johanna, Rothman, the great authors and mentors. 1013 00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:00,700 Three, I think you should always have a story in your head. 1014 00:49:00,700 --> 00:49:03,700 What you're trying to achieve. So if you're doing something and 1015 00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:06,000 somebody asked, you why you're doing that something, why did 1016 00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,600 you choose that metric? Why do we want to change the 1017 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:10,900 structure of this team? Why are you bringing this? 1018 00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:15,300 And there should be an overall arching story, that might change 1019 00:49:15,300 --> 00:49:17,800 every few months. But you should always have an 1020 00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,600 initiative or something that you're pushing for. 1021 00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,400 And they all connect to something that you always 1022 00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,400 believe in, which means that no matter what, somebody asks you, 1023 00:49:26,700 --> 00:49:29,700 it always eventually connects to something that you care about 1024 00:49:29,700 --> 00:49:33,300 eventually maybe in 10 years. So, for example, if you ask me 1025 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:36,800 about any of the books that I write, or the consultant that I 1026 00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,900 do or whatever, they are all connected to the same, 1027 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,500 underlying set of principles. Balls that I care about, they're 1028 00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:44,700 all connected. Like the pipeline driven stuffed 1029 00:49:44,700 --> 00:49:47,400 about continuous delivery and it connect to the unit testing 1030 00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:51,200 stuff and elastic leadership is connected because changing an 1031 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:54,100 organization and transformation requires these leadership 1032 00:49:54,100 --> 00:49:55,400 skills. They're all connected. 1033 00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,800 So, you should find the theory of everything that makes you 1034 00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:00,700 tick. If you're an organization and 1035 00:50:00,700 --> 00:50:03,900 you just doing something for the sake of doing it, then you 1036 00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:07,900 probably not going to succeed, there has to be a bigger reason, 1037 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:10,900 and you have to find that reason, and then you will always 1038 00:50:10,900 --> 00:50:14,400 have Good answer, when somebody asks you why you want to do it? 1039 00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:17,800 And maybe at the beginning the answer is it doesn't feel right. 1040 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,400 Your job is to find how to explain it with the number or 1041 00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,900 with a cost or something. This isn't right. 1042 00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:26,100 And I want to change this stuff or it could be. 1043 00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,600 I believe that this makes me a better leader by growing people. 1044 00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:31,900 And so that's what I do. That's my Mantra that's how I 1045 00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:35,200 grow people, that's how I work. Just like if I'm a developer, 1046 00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:38,100 this is how I write code. I documented and make sure it's 1047 00:50:38,100 --> 00:50:40,900 easy for people to read. Like every decision I make is 1048 00:50:40,900 --> 00:50:42,800 real. Led to that stuff eventually. 1049 00:50:43,300 --> 00:50:47,300 So I would say always have a reason or an eventual reason for 1050 00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:50,400 anything that you're doing which is pushing some buttons. 1051 00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:54,100 I'm talking about tactical and strategic decisions that you're 1052 00:50:54,100 --> 00:50:56,600 making in the company or that you're pushing for, or you're 1053 00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:59,700 going to convince people to do. There should be a bigger reason 1054 00:50:59,700 --> 00:51:02,500 why you're doing it. Other than this code sucks. 1055 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,100 That's a very small Point. How about the other code? 1056 00:51:06,100 --> 00:51:08,600 Are you changing this? But in an effort to make 1057 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,000 something bigger out of it. Are you changing this? 1058 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,300 Because then, it enables something else bigger, or maybe 1059 00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:17,200 this is part of a set of actions that you're taking with your 1060 00:51:17,200 --> 00:51:19,100 part of a bigger strategy, whatever it is. 1061 00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:23,000 There should be something like a one, two, three, four year 1062 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:26,000 Horizon that you pushing for, and it's okay and it takes time, 1063 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,900 it's a marathon. But if you have that, there's 1064 00:51:28,900 --> 00:51:31,300 always the next task etcetera. It doesn't feel like you're just 1065 00:51:31,300 --> 00:51:34,100 repeating yourself and I think then it's easier if you have 1066 00:51:34,100 --> 00:51:37,300 like this thing that you're pushing for while I really left 1067 00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:40,300 the last one, so always have a story of what you want to 1068 00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:43,300 achieve and And the best will be to connect to what you believe, 1069 00:51:43,300 --> 00:51:46,300 like maybe the values, or maybe the kind of aspirations that you 1070 00:51:46,300 --> 00:51:48,500 want to do, right? As to be, or you will not be 1071 00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:50,500 able to stick to it. You will stop. 1072 00:51:50,700 --> 00:51:52,200 It has to be something you really care about. 1073 00:51:52,200 --> 00:51:55,300 Then you want to see it happen. It cannot be somebody else's 1074 00:51:55,300 --> 00:51:57,400 story. It has to be your and maybe it's 1075 00:51:57,400 --> 00:51:58,800 connected. Maybe you believe what that 1076 00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:00,800 person said, but it's your story. 1077 00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,300 It's the reason you get up in the morning in that company 1078 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:06,400 eventually I know you get up so you can feed the family and all 1079 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,800 that stuff but as you're doing that stuff, is there any kind of 1080 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:12,800 change? I It's okay to also say I don't 1081 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,800 have a story I'm not trying to change anything. 1082 00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:20,400 I mean 95% that's fine. But most leaders are tasks with 1083 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:24,200 situations that forced them to make tough decisions and when 1084 00:52:24,200 --> 00:52:27,000 those tough decisions happen, they have to have a reason why 1085 00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:31,400 they chose this specific thing. So even if your story is, I want 1086 00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,700 to make sure that employees have a specific way of thinking, what 1087 00:52:34,700 --> 00:52:37,400 something or want to make sure that no matter what people have 1088 00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,700 work-life balance, that's fine to just have a reason. 1089 00:52:41,100 --> 00:52:44,000 Plane yourself, why? And that way you will never be 1090 00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,300 speechless when you're stuck in a meeting. 1091 00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:50,000 And manager says, why do you spend a hundred thousand dollars 1092 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:52,400 on three months and I'm not seeing anything for it. 1093 00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,700 It could be a problem that they're not seeing maybe you're 1094 00:52:54,700 --> 00:52:57,400 seeing, maybe you have to learn how to show them what they 1095 00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:01,500 supposed to see but if you can see it and you just can't 1096 00:53:01,500 --> 00:53:04,300 explain it. It's much better than if you did 1097 00:53:04,300 --> 00:53:06,100 it and you don't even know what you did it. 1098 00:53:06,300 --> 00:53:09,000 So that's kind of the idea and I think that works also as a 1099 00:53:09,008 --> 00:53:11,500 consultant and also isn't it. Up north. 1100 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:14,300 Yeah, I think sometimes we do stuff without actually 1101 00:53:14,300 --> 00:53:17,000 understanding the underlying reasons or maybe the bigger 1102 00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,100 picture. So we just for the sake of doing 1103 00:53:19,100 --> 00:53:21,500 the task, shall we just do it? Thanks for reminding us. 1104 00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:24,000 I think it applies not just at work as well, maybe to your 1105 00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:27,100 personal life, thinking about what is the bigger story about 1106 00:53:27,100 --> 00:53:29,600 your personal life may be any aspirations for goals. 1107 00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,600 I really like the concept also ties it back to your beliefs and 1108 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:34,800 values. So thanks for putting this as a 1109 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,600 wisdom for us. So for people who love this 1110 00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:40,100 conversation and want to connect with you online, is there a 1111 00:53:40,100 --> 00:53:42,200 place where they can reach out? A out or maybe talk to you. 1112 00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,600 Yeah, I'm on Twitter. Royal shrove on Twitter or I do 1113 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:52,000 assure of.com, or a tort of unit testing.com or it five wise.com. 1114 00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,100 That's the block to start the elastic leadership. 1115 00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:57,000 So the number 5 and then wh-why s.com. 1116 00:53:58,000 --> 00:54:00,300 So there are a lot of ways to adjust find me. 1117 00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,800 I have a lot of YouTube talks about that stuff is well from 1118 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:06,800 different conferences. I'll never be in Copenhagen this 1119 00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:08,500 month actually. During the classic leadership 1120 00:54:08,500 --> 00:54:11,000 training. So people are always welcome. 1121 00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,500 To get in contact with me and I'm always happy to hear about 1122 00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:17,100 new situations. I promise, I will probably learn 1123 00:54:17,100 --> 00:54:20,600 from them just as much as you learn from my own experience. 1124 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:23,400 Yeah, unfortunately, we couldn't cover the pipeline driven 1125 00:54:23,400 --> 00:54:26,000 organization, but one day, I think we will reach the time 1126 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,500 when you publish the book and I'll arrange another episode for 1127 00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:30,500 that. So what we call it for that one, 1128 00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:33,200 thanks for your time today. Really love conversation. 1129 00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:35,500 Thank you, Henry, it was a pleasure. 1130 00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:41,600 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying, right 1131 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:45,100 until the end, if you're highly enjoyed it, I would appreciate 1132 00:54:45,100 --> 00:54:47,600 if you share it with your friends and colleagues who you 1133 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:50,400 think would also benefit from listening to this episode. 1134 00:54:50,700 --> 00:54:53,500 And if you are new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 1135 00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:55,900 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 1136 00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,100 It helps me a lot in order to grow these podcasts better. 1137 00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:02,500 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 1138 00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:06,200 the episode page at Tecla Journal. .F website, including 1139 00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:10,000 the full transcript interesting. It's and links to the resources 1140 00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,900 mention from the conversation. And lastly, make sure to 1141 00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:17,600 subscribe to the shows mailing list on pack leader dot f to get 1142 00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:19,800 notified for any future episodes. 1143 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:21,700 Stay tuned for the next technology. 1144 00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:24,600 No episode. And until then goodbye.