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Often the ways that we became 
managers, the ways that we 

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became leaders is by being 
really good problem solvers. 

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But the reality is what people 
want in these moments is 

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somebody to listen to and 
acknowledge them. 

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One of my favorite quotes is 
people don't care how much, you 

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know, until they know how much 
you care. 

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Just letting them know. 
I care. 

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I hear you. 
I acknowledge that you're going 

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through something hard. 
Is often the most helpful thing 

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that we can do, especially for 
people who are Our leaders, When

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leaders in particular people 
that are viewed as being in 

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positions of authority, are 
supportive and show people that 

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they're believed. 
It really makes a tremendous 

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difference in their healing. 
Hey everyone, my name is Henry 

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00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:53,400
Surya we Robin. 
And you're listening to the 

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00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,700
technology, you know, podcast 
the show where I'll be bringing 

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00:00:56,700 --> 00:00:59,800
you the greatest technical 
leaders practitioners and 

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00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,600
thought leaders in the industry 
to discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Logan to all of you, my friends 
and my listeners, welcome to the

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00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:26,000
technology. 
Now, podcast the show where you 

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can learn about technical 
leadership and Excellence from 

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00:01:28,800 --> 00:01:31,400
my conversations with great 
thought, leaders in the tech 

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industry. 
If this is your first time 

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listening to techno Journal, 
don't forget to subscribe and 

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follow the show on your podcast 
app and on LinkedIn, Twitter and

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Instagram and to support my 
journey. 

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Creating this podcast, 
subscribe, as a patron at 

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00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:49,600
Actually you know that death / 
Patron, my guest for today's 

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episode is Catherine Manning 
Katherine is the president of 

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black but DC and the author of 
The empathetic workplace. 

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In this episode we discussed how
leaders can deal with traumatic 

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experience in the workplace. 
Catherine describe what she 

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means by workplace trauma and 
explain the impact of such 

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trauma on employees performance 
and organizations productivity. 

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She shared the importance of 
leaders show. 

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Showing trust whenever employees
come forward and share their 

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trauma. 
And why leaders should avoid 

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problem solving in response to 
their situation. 

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Catherine also touch on the 
importance of empathy and gave a

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few tips on how we can be more 
empathetic towards others and 

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towards the end Catherine 
shared, her framework called the

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laser method. 
The five steps we can do for a 

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more compassionate, calm, and 
confident response to the 

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workplace drama. 
I really enjoyed my conversation

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with Kathryn personally, I've 
experienced a few cases of 

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employees having workplace 
trauma, when I was the manager 

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or the leader, and even cases 
when the employee had a severe 

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depression and suicidal 
thoughts. 

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And in most of those situations,
I was never trained on how to 

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deal with the situation 
compassionately and 

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empathetically. 
So this episode is my attempt to

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share a great way to educate 
ourselves on how to deal with 

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such workplace trauma and 
learning from. 

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From Catherine, someone who is 
highly experienced in. 

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This is something that I really 
appreciate. 

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And if you also find this 
episode useful, please help, 

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share it with more people. 
So I can reach out to many more 

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people like you to benefit from 
this episode. 

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00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,700
Also, leave this podcast of 5 
star rating and review on Apple 

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podcast and Spotify. 
It will help me a lot to make 

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this podcast easily, discovered 
by others. 

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Before we continue the 
conversation with Kathryn. 

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Let's hear some words from our 
sponsors. 

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Today's episode is Proudly 
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Hello everyone. 
Welcome back to another new 

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episode of the package, on our 
podcast today, I have with me a 

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00:05:01,100 --> 00:05:04,800
guest named Katherine Manning, 
she is an author to see 

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published a book titled, the 
empathetic workplace, five steps

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to compassionate, calm and 
confident response to trauma on 

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the job. 
So based on this This book, we 

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will be talking a lot about how 
to handle traumatic situations 

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in the workplace for this 
traumatic experience or maybe 

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later on. 
We will discuss about that and I

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think this topic has become much
more important and it's also 

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personal to me. 
Because at my workplace, I have 

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to handle these kind of 
situations. 

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So I find many leaders probably 
are not equipped to handle this 

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kind of situations. 
And I find this important to 

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have this conversation so that 
we can learn at least the 

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basics, how to handle that. 
And then also, maybe avoid or 

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reduce the stress that we have. 
Deal with when dealing with such

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situation. 
So Catherine, thank you so much 

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for this opportunity. 
Really looking forward for this 

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conversation. 
Me to thank you Henry. 

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It's such a pleasure to be here.
So Catherine before we start 

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with the conversation about 
traumatic experience in the 

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workplace. 
Maybe if you can introduce 

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yourself. 
Maybe telling more about your 

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career Journey, any highlights 
or turning points. 

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Absolutely, I'm a lawyer and 
have spent most of my career 

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working with Crime Victims. 
I started when I was in. 

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College working at the local 
Domestic Violence Shelter. 

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As a volunteer, I did domestic 
violence and Rape Crisis, 

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Hotline work for many years. 
And then after I went to law 

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school, I ended up at the US 
Department of Justice where I 

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was a senior attorney advisor on
victim rights. 

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And what that meant was, I would
advise the department on how it 

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worked with victims in a wide 
array of cases. 

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Anything for my huge fraud case 
to terrorism to child 

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exploitation. 
And one of the things I began to

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notice This was that everybody 
needed the same kinds of things.

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It wasn't like the way that you 
would support an identity theft 

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victim was wildly, different 
than the way you would support a

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human trafficking victim. 
Everybody needed to feel heard 

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and acknowledged everybody 
needed referrals to support. 

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And then I began to realize that
it wasn't just the victims in 

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our cases, who needed those 
things. 

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If I had a co-worker for 
instance, who had a father who 

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was dying, or maybe a boss, who 
was abusive Or an ex-boyfriend 

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who was maybe stalking her. 
Those were situations where I 

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realized I was pulling on the 
same skills that I had used to 

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support Crime Victims. 
It made me realize that these 

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issues are not only in the 
criminal justice system, people 

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are dealing with traumas, all 
the time in the workplace, it's 

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just often, we don't talk about 
it. 

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One of the things I also began 
to realize was that while it can

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be difficult and unnerving when 
somebody comes to you in the 

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midst of a crisis. 
There's really just some basic 

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things that we need to do to 
support them. 

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We don't have to become their 
therapist, we shouldn't become 

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their therapist. 
It's really just what can we do 

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to help them get through that 
moment? 

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I think of it as almost like the
CPR skills. 

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Like you see the problem, you 
give them immediate support and 

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then you send them on to the 
experts to get more of what they

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need. 
So I began realizing that there 

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were these overlaps in what 
kinds of support people needed. 

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And started thinking through 
what What I would say those 

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supports were and that's when I 
really began working on my book.

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It was honestly the me to 
movement in 2018 that made me 

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start to think a lot about how 
these issues came up outside of 

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Criminal Justice, and how a lot 
of workplaces were dealing with 

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them in some ways, though I've 
got to admit, I was frustrated 

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by me too because I felt like me
to put so much on survivors to 

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come forward, and share their 
story. 

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Everybody needs to hear your 
story, but without an 

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understanding that when somebody
shares their story. 

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Whew. 
You have an obligation to really

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listen and provide support in a 
compassionate and empathetic 

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way. 
So that's what really propelled 

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me to start thinking about. 
What would you say, people 

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should do in that moment? 
And that was when I came up with

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this idea of really five steps 
that people should take when 

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somebody comes to them in that 
moment of trauma or distress. 

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So, I left the justice 
department in 2019 and that was 

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when I launched my company 
Blackbird and started working on

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the book. 
Now, it's funny Henry publishing

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takes a really long time, right?
It takes about 2 years from when

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you sell a book to when it 
actually gets published. 

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And in that time is when we had 
Global pandemic, huge economic 

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uncertainty, lots of racial 
violence here in the u.s., at 

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least I know around the world as
well. 

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The beginning of the book is all
these statistics to help people 

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understand how you should know, 
there's trauma in the workplace.

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But what I found now is I almost
don't need to tell people that 

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because it has been So clear 
over the last few years, almost 

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everybody has been touched in 
some way through the different 

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crises that we've been facing. 
So what has been, I think 

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fortuitous is the timing that 
people are really needing this 

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just because it's been so clear.
But the reality is that these 

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traumas have always been in our 
workplace and always will be. 

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So what I really hope is that 
organizations will take this 

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moment and recognize that they 
have to develop these skills 

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that To help them get through 
this moment and also be prepared

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for whatever else is coming down
the lane. 

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Thank you so much for sharing 
your story. 

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First of all, I think I really 
need to appreciate your effort 

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00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,100
in writing this book because I 
think it's not easy to deal in 

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such situations. 
Then you have dealt with so many

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00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,700
difficult, traumatic experience.
Things like, even Boston 

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00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:34,400
Marathon bombing the me to 
movement. 

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00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,400
And what are the terrorism that 
you have to deal with, right? 

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00:10:37,500 --> 00:10:41,300
So, having someone who is an 
expert in dealing with this and 

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00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:43,100
giving us the basics, the 
advice. 

200
00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:45,600
It's how we can actually deal 
with such situations. 

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00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:47,100
I think it's going to be really 
helpful. 

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00:10:47,300 --> 00:10:50,700
So really thankful for your 
effort in writing the book, we 

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00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,000
have been talking about the 
traumatic experience. 

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00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:56,100
So for people who are probably 
associating trauma with 

205
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:59,900
something like a childhood past 
trauma, or fear, maybe you can 

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00:10:59,900 --> 00:11:02,000
clarify a little bit. 
What do you mean by traumatic 

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00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,400
experience at the workplace? 
Absolutely. 

208
00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:09,300
The definition of trauma that I 
use is a very practical one and 

209
00:11:09,300 --> 00:11:12,100
focused on the work that I do 
and just trauma in the 

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00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:15,700
workplace. 
So what I use is a somewhat 

211
00:11:15,700 --> 00:11:19,500
slimmed down version of the 
definition of Trauma from the 

212
00:11:19,700 --> 00:11:22,800
u.s. samsa substance, abuse 
mental, health, services, 

213
00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:27,000
Administration, and that 
definition is a psychological 

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00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:32,000
injury that affects performance.
So just to unpack that a little 

215
00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:35,900
bit, there are other definitions
of trauma where they look at a 

216
00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:38,800
list of events. 
And they say, trauma is when you

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00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,700
experienced one of these events.
I don't like using that 

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00:11:42,700 --> 00:11:45,100
definition. 
And because we are all so 

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00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:48,400
different and we can respond so 
differently to the same event. 

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00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:52,400
Just speaking personally, when 
my father passed away, I was in 

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00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,800
my late twenties and at the 
time, I was working at a big Law

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00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:58,200
Firm. 
I took maybe a day off and then 

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00:11:58,200 --> 00:11:59,700
I came back to work and all day 
long. 

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00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:03,200
People were coming up to me and 
saying, oh my gosh, I'm so 

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00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,100
sorry, this is so awful. 
I can't even believe you're 

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00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:09,200
here, please go home. 
You must be devastated. 

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00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:12,700
The reality is I hadn't seen my 
father in many years. 

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00:12:12,700 --> 00:12:15,700
He's not The person who raised 
me and I had a wonderful 

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00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:19,100
childhood but not with him. 
While it was sad that he died. 

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00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:22,000
I didn't feel that sense of 
Devastation that maybe somebody 

231
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who had lost a parent, who 
raised them might have felt. 

232
00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,000
So for me all of those 
expressions of oh I'm so sorry, 

233
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just made me feel kind of bad 
and like I was reacting wrong. 

234
00:12:33,300 --> 00:12:36,700
So I think the key is just to 
see the person in front of you 

235
00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:39,400
and what they need and not judge
based on what they've 

236
00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,800
experienced whether you think 
they are in trauma. 

237
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Just We analyze what it is that 
the person in front of you is 

238
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,700
going through and do they need 
support and then the other piece

239
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of it is, it's an injury that 
affects your performance. 

240
00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,500
This is the workplace. 
So we don't need managers going 

241
00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,900
in and sitting down and saying, 
oh my gosh, so I understand 

242
00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:01,800
you've been through something 
really difficult. 

243
00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,800
Why don't you tell me about it 
again? 

244
00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,600
You're not the therapist. 
The issue is, is this something 

245
00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,000
that's affecting you and your 
ability to do the things that 

246
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,500
you want to do? 
Are you struggling to keep up 

247
00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:15,200
with your deadlines to pay? 
Attention and meetings, are you 

248
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,600
having difficulty managing your 
workload and the ways that you 

249
00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:20,700
want to be at work? 
Maybe it's affecting your 

250
00:13:20,700 --> 00:13:23,500
communication for instance 
that's another common thing that

251
00:13:23,500 --> 00:13:25,700
can happen. 
People are maybe more short 

252
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:29,800
tempered for instance. 
So what we're looking for, are 

253
00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:32,900
those kinds of traumas that are 
affecting people's ability to 

254
00:13:32,900 --> 00:13:34,900
perform in the way that they 
need to perform in the 

255
00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:37,200
workplace. 
And those are the issues that we

256
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,300
want to figure out how to 
address in a supportive way so 

257
00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:42,800
that people can continue to 
thrive and do their jobs. 

258
00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,000
Well, I really like your simple 
definition. 

259
00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:49,700
So it's like a psychological 
injury that affect performance. 

260
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,000
Psychological injury means, I 
could be anything that affect, 

261
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,000
maybe mental health, and mental 
well-being. 

262
00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,000
So, I guess these days. 
We experience a lot of 

263
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,800
situations, be it from pandemic,
economical situations like 

264
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,300
inflation, High interest rates 
and layoffs, massive, layoffs 

265
00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:08,900
happening in the past few weeks 
and you quoted in the book. 

266
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:12,000
If we work with people, we are 
actually working with people in 

267
00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:13,800
trauma. 
So like, everyone, One has this 

268
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,400
kind of a traumatic experience. 
I think nobody these days have 

269
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,400
been immune to such situation, 
right? 

270
00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:22,700
I think everyone has their own 
story and I think it's very 

271
00:14:22,700 --> 00:14:24,900
important to quote some 
statistics, which you also 

272
00:14:24,900 --> 00:14:27,000
quoted in the book. 
So I will just read it here. 

273
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:29,600
The percentage of those who 
suffer from anxiety is 

274
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,400
increasing at an alarming Pace. 
Especially these days, 

275
00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:35,900
particularly young people and 
suicide rates has also gone up 

276
00:14:35,900 --> 00:14:39,400
30% and recently. 
Yeah, we also have gone through 

277
00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:42,000
pandemic situations, which might
affect a lot of families. 

278
00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:45,300
So I think that this This is 
definitely real and we have to 

279
00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:48,700
be able to somehow cope with it.
So you mentioned things about 

280
00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:51,300
affecting performance. 
Maybe, for managers, who 

281
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:54,600
probably know, there are people 
who are not performing based on 

282
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,700
their capability, what will be 
some impact that you can start 

283
00:14:57,700 --> 00:14:59,800
noticing? 
Where the people has trauma? 

284
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,600
I think some of the things that 
managers should be looking out 

285
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,000
for our changes and people's 
behavior. 

286
00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:12,200
I remember, I spoke once with a 
CEO who told me about one of 

287
00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,200
their top Performers. 
It was a guy who was the head of

288
00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,200
sales for the organization and 
he had always been somebody that

289
00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:20,800
they could rely on. 
He was really kind of part of 

290
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:24,300
the backbone of the company and 
then one day his performance, 

291
00:15:24,300 --> 00:15:28,100
just fell off a cliff started 
showing up late, missing 

292
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,400
deadlines, zoning out and 
meetings where he normally would

293
00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:34,100
have been very engaged. 
And on top of things, he was 

294
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:38,300
really gone. 
The CEO recounted to me that 

295
00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:41,100
they were thinking, they had to 
fire him because they thought we

296
00:15:41,100 --> 00:15:43,000
can't have somebody in this 
position. 

297
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:46,600
Who is not up to the task. 
This is a really important role.

298
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,700
But finally, they said, well, 
maybe we should just talk to him

299
00:15:49,700 --> 00:15:52,900
and see what he has to say for 
himself when they had that 

300
00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:55,800
conversation. 
The man disclosed that his wife 

301
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:59,000
was dying and he hadn't wanted 
to bring it up because he 

302
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,500
thought it wasn't appropriate to
talk about that kind of thing in

303
00:16:01,500 --> 00:16:06,600
the workplace but once they knew
that they were able to get some 

304
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,800
supports around him. 
The other thing that was amazing

305
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:13,700
is even before those supports 
were in place the man's formants

306
00:16:13,700 --> 00:16:18,000
completely turned around. 
The reason for that is there was

307
00:16:18,000 --> 00:16:20,300
so much stress, right? 
He's already got the stress of 

308
00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:21,900
the job and they can't take that
away. 

309
00:16:21,900 --> 00:16:24,700
There's the stress of his wife 
dying and they can't take that 

310
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:27,000
away. 
But then on top of that, there's

311
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,200
this third, kind of stress, 
which is the stress about what 

312
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,400
is work going to say about the 
fact that I'm struggling with 

313
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,900
this issue and they were able to
take that away. 

314
00:16:35,900 --> 00:16:39,400
And because they took away that 
third source of stress, he was 

315
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,600
really able to focus on the 
first two and that really 

316
00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,400
affected This performance 
immediately. 

317
00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:49,500
So I think that's the main thing
is noticing changes in 

318
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:53,500
somebody's behavior of suddenly 
they are much less engaged. 

319
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:55,500
They're taking a lot of days 
off. 

320
00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,800
Sometimes people will tell you 
and that's really helpful when 

321
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:02,400
they do, but if they are not 
doing it, it can be worthwhile 

322
00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:06,099
to just do a quick check-in. 
So maybe you have a regular 

323
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:09,599
staff meeting and you notice 
gosh, James is not really 

324
00:17:09,599 --> 00:17:12,500
participating, you know, 
normally he's like laughing with

325
00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:13,400
everybody. 
Else. 

326
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,900
And I'm offering up suggestions 
or questions, and he barely said

327
00:17:16,900 --> 00:17:21,500
a word this time, so then maybe 
just quickly afterward like, hey

328
00:17:21,500 --> 00:17:24,300
James, just wanted to check in 
and see how things are going. 

329
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:26,400
I noticed you were a little 
quiet in that meeting. 

330
00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,600
Now that can do a few really 
good things. 

331
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,900
One is, it shows him that you 
care and gives him an 

332
00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:36,400
opportunity. 
If maybe like this guy who was 

333
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,600
the head of sales, he feels 
uncomfortable talking about 

334
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,000
something afraid that maybe 
people don't want to hear it. 

335
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,000
You've kind of opened that door 
and allowed. 

336
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,900
Them to express it. 
If you wants to even if he 

337
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:50,500
doesn't want to, he now knows 
that you are somebody that he 

338
00:17:50,500 --> 00:17:54,000
could go to whenever he is 
ready, if he gets there. 

339
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:58,100
And then finally one of the most
fascinating pieces of research 

340
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:02,500
that I came across in the last 
year, showed that even where 

341
00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:07,000
James is fine, it's still 
helpful to ask that question, 

342
00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:10,600
they trust you more, they feel 
closer to you when you're 

343
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,000
willing to ask that question or 
you doing, okay? 

344
00:18:13,100 --> 00:18:15,700
Okay, even if they are even if 
they were totally fine, there's 

345
00:18:15,700 --> 00:18:17,500
nothing wrong. 
And he's like, I just was up 

346
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:20,300
late playing video games. 
I'm just a little tired today. 

347
00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:24,800
Just that question, really 
builds, trust in particular 

348
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:28,600
where it's a manager asking it, 
that really demonstrates two 

349
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,700
people, that you are a 
trustworthy person, a leader 

350
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:34,700
that they want to rely on. 
So it's a really, really helpful

351
00:18:34,700 --> 00:18:37,100
thing to do, even where you're 
wrong. 

352
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,100
So I think for managers out 
there, who probably notice your 

353
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,900
people behaving differently 
first, Maybe it's a loss of 

354
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:46,600
productivity. 
Second is there not much 

355
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:50,300
involved as they are used to? 
So you call this absenteeism and

356
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,200
also maybe if they are thinking 
of quitting or maybe they're 

357
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,000
just not performing as what they
used to do before that. 

358
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:59,000
So I think you also touch on an 
important Point sometimes when 

359
00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,700
people are in a stressful 
situations, not just stress with

360
00:19:01,700 --> 00:19:04,800
the workload stress about 
personal but they also stressed.

361
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,300
How can I share this situations 
that are dealing with? 

362
00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:11,300
Because sometimes they don't 
have trust or they don't know if

363
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:14,000
they share something. 
Whether it's Someone will have a

364
00:19:14,008 --> 00:19:17,700
bad stigma about you telling 
that story so I think having the

365
00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:20,900
trust, I mean the go-to person 
to share this information. 

366
00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,600
I think it's also very important
and that's why when you say 

367
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,900
about check-in or just asking 
the person hey are you doing 

368
00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:28,700
okay? 
I think that also builds trust, 

369
00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:30,300
right? 
So maybe if you can share a 

370
00:19:30,308 --> 00:19:34,400
little bit more about this trust
how can a manager shows that 

371
00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:36,900
they are trustworthy for people 
who are in this situation? 

372
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:39,700
Is there any kind of tips that 
you want to share with us? 

373
00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:44,000
Absolutely. 
First and foremost, Is make sure

374
00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,800
that you respond well when 
people do come forward. 

375
00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:50,600
So when somebody has that 
conversation of my spouse is 

376
00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:52,900
very ill that kind of 
conversation. 

377
00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,400
And hey, I just want you to 
know, I might be taking more 

378
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,900
time off in the coming weeks, a 
few things are one how you 

379
00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:03,400
respond in the moment and that's
the five steps to that of 

380
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,500
response to trauma on the job. 
So make sure that you are 

381
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:09,800
responding in an empathetic way 
in that moment that's going to 

382
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:14,300
help both that individual. 
But also Everybody else that is 

383
00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:17,600
observing this. 
Some people are going to talk 

384
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:20,700
about it with their colleagues 
and friends, you know. 

385
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:23,000
Hey listen, he was really really
great. 

386
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,100
There was a guy that I worked 
with at the justice department, 

387
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:30,600
whose job was investigating 
crimes on a Native American 

388
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,100
reservation when he first took 
the job. 

389
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:37,000
They said to him oh like every 
now and then you'll get 

390
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,000
something serious like a fight 
when a salt but for the most 

391
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,900
part it's like speeding and 
drunken disorderly. 

392
00:20:43,100 --> 00:20:44,700
There's really nothing much 
going on. 

393
00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:47,700
Maybe once in a really long time
you get something like a sexual 

394
00:20:47,700 --> 00:20:50,100
assault. 
One of the first things he did 

395
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:53,100
was investigate a cold case. 
We're really old one that had 

396
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,200
been unsolved, a claimed sexual 
assault. 

397
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,100
He talked to the victim, he 
talked to everybody, he could 

398
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:02,100
find any Witnesses, he gathered 
as much information as he could.

399
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:04,900
Ultimately, he said, I can't do 
anything about this. 

400
00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,700
It's too old. 
There's no way to prosecute it, 

401
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:09,600
but he explained that to the 
victim. 

402
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:13,300
Here's why I can't, you know, if
anything else comes up, Please 

403
00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:15,200
let me know. 
I'm still open to it but just 

404
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,900
understand, here's everything 
we've done. 

405
00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:19,500
And I'm so sorry for what you 
went through and we're not going

406
00:21:19,500 --> 00:21:22,000
to be able to take it forward 
that year. 

407
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,200
He had seven sexual assault 
trials after them telling him 

408
00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:30,200
you're not going to have any for
like maybe one in seven years. 

409
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,900
He had seven in one year and the
reason was because that victim 

410
00:21:34,100 --> 00:21:37,100
went and told all her friends, 
he is trustworthy. 

411
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:41,500
He is willing to take you 
seriously, he will listen to you

412
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,700
and he will provide you support 
Work through this process. 

413
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:48,100
So it's like everybody came out 
of the woodwork once they knew 

414
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:50,200
that he was somebody that they 
could trust. 

415
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,400
I think the same thing happens 
in the workplace when somebody 

416
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,200
comes forward with. 
I feel a little uncomfortable 

417
00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,700
about the way that person talks.
He's using language, that makes 

418
00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:03,500
me uncomfortable. 
If you take that seriously and 

419
00:22:03,500 --> 00:22:06,000
you acknowledge, yes, I hear 
what you're saying and I'm sorry

420
00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:09,700
about that and let's figure out 
what we can do that moment where

421
00:22:09,700 --> 00:22:12,100
you're taking. 
It seriously, is going to have 

422
00:22:12,100 --> 00:22:15,100
Ripple effects. 
It's through the entire team 

423
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,000
because now other people will be
willing to share their stories 

424
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,700
with you as well. 
And you'll uncover a lot of the 

425
00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:22,800
challenges. 
And I know sometimes people say,

426
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,600
well, I don't necessarily want 
to hear all this stuff but the 

427
00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,500
reality is, those issues are 
happening whether you know about

428
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:33,100
them or not and they're already 
affecting your engagement, 

429
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:36,800
productivity creativity, all of 
the things on your team are 

430
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,600
already being affected by those 
unresolved on talked about 

431
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,200
issues so much better to bring. 
Them out in the open where they 

432
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,500
can be dealt with the goal is 
not a quiet morning, it's a 

433
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:51,100
healthy team, so that's one as 
make sure you're responding. 

434
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:56,100
Well, when people come forward, 
the other thing is have supports

435
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:58,800
available and talk about them a 
lot. 

436
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:02,400
A lot of teams have done, just 
amazing things in the recent 

437
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,700
years, in terms of coming up 
with great ways to support 

438
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,600
people who are struggling 
everything from mental health 

439
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:13,700
days to miscarriage. 
Leave to transgender Our medical

440
00:23:13,700 --> 00:23:18,000
support or providing mental 
health resources, that are 

441
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:20,600
culturally specific. 
So if you want somebody of your 

442
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,000
own cultural background to talk 
to, you can get it, there's just

443
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:27,400
been some incredible things that
people have done and that's 

444
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,400
amazing but they're only helpful
if people know about them, if 

445
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:35,100
you have a fantastic policy to 
support people who are 

446
00:23:35,108 --> 00:23:39,500
experiencing violence in their 
intimate relationship, that's 

447
00:23:39,500 --> 00:23:42,300
only going to be helpful if the 
people who need it know that 

448
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:45,200
it's there. 
And so you have to talk about it

449
00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:48,000
widely because you have no idea 
who needs it. 

450
00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:50,800
And you have to talk about it, 
repeatedly because you may 

451
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:55,000
mention it, the first time it 
comes out and maybe there's 

452
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,200
somebody on your team. 
Who at the time doesn't need it.

453
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,800
It goes right over her head. 
She's not paying any attention. 

454
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:04,000
But then two years later, boy, 
she really needs that. 

455
00:24:04,300 --> 00:24:07,300
So if you've only mentioned it 
the one time, she's not going to

456
00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:09,900
even be aware. 
So you have to make sure that 

457
00:24:09,900 --> 00:24:13,900
you were talking about these 
supports widely and Repeatedly. 

458
00:24:14,300 --> 00:24:17,000
And then the final thing, I 
think in terms of leaders making

459
00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,600
it clear that it's okay to talk 
about these issues, as you kind 

460
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:24,400
of have to walk the walk, you 
have to be willing to talk about

461
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:29,000
these issues yourself. 
I have a friend who is the head 

462
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,600
of Ethics at Walmart, giant 
global company. 

463
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,300
Fortune. 
Number one company in the world.

464
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:40,200
She is a black woman and she had
an experience where she was 

465
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,900
traveling for the company to do 
an investigation. 

466
00:24:43,100 --> 00:24:46,900
And she flew into this other 
City, very late at night. 

467
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:50,700
She went to check in and the 
person gave her the room and she

468
00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:54,200
went up to the room and it was 
terrible like dripping and the 

469
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:59,400
corner wallpaper peeling, it was
really musty like just gross and

470
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,400
so, she went back down to the 
front desk and said, you know, 

471
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,400
this room is in really awful 
shape. 

472
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:06,600
Is there any other room 
available in the hotel? 

473
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,200
And the man at the front desk 
said, no, this is the very last 

474
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,300
room that we have and she 
thought, well, that's kind of 

475
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:12,800
strange. 
It's not like that crowd. 

476
00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:15,400
At a city, and it's a weeknight,
but okay, fine. 

477
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,900
So she went she spent a very 
uncomfortable night, they're 

478
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:21,500
leaving early the next morning 
to go to her meetings, as she 

479
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,500
was walking out. 
She noticed that there was a 

480
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:26,300
black woman at the front desk 
and she thought, just going to 

481
00:25:26,300 --> 00:25:28,600
ask. 
So she went and she said where 

482
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,600
you all full last night and the 
woman said, no, we had plenty of

483
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,900
rooms available, my friend said 
ah yeah. 

484
00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:37,800
Interesting because I was told 
that you didn't the woman said, 

485
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,200
well what room were you put in? 
And she told her and woman said,

486
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,100
oh my gosh, I'm so sorry, that's
awful. 

487
00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:45,700
No we had plenty of Their places
and she said, so, who was it? 

488
00:25:45,700 --> 00:25:48,700
Who told you that we were fall? 
And my friend described the man,

489
00:25:48,700 --> 00:25:52,300
and she said that's our manager,
he's the head of the hotel. 

490
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,900
So my friend just thought, well,
this is just something that 

491
00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:59,000
happens, you know, she certainly
experienced a lot of racism in 

492
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:00,600
her life. 
It wasn't something that she was

493
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,500
going to allow to kind of knock 
her off. 

494
00:26:02,500 --> 00:26:04,600
Her game all day and she just 
kind of filed it away. 

495
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,800
It wasn't something that she 
really thought about, but then a

496
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,600
couple weeks later she was 
talking to her boss and he said 

497
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:15,200
to her, gosh I've just Has found
out that some of our Associates 

498
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:19,100
feel uncomfortable in certain 
cities and she said, because of 

499
00:26:19,100 --> 00:26:21,900
their race and she said, well, 
it's not a surprise and here's 

500
00:26:21,900 --> 00:26:25,900
something that happened to me 
and he said, I'm so horrified 

501
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:29,700
that happened to you. 
That is awful, he instantly went

502
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:33,600
and put that hotel on their, do 
not stay at company-wide like 

503
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:35,800
that hotel is off the list. 
They are not allowed to stay 

504
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,000
there anymore. 
He'd called the manager and told

505
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:41,900
him why, and he asked my friend,
would you be willing to share 

506
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,700
your story? 
A big call with all of our 

507
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:47,900
people who do these 
investigations around the world.

508
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:50,100
And she said, sure, yeah, I'd be
happy to. 

509
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:53,900
Now, think about the difference 
that makes when you have the 

510
00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:57,100
person who is the head of ethics
for the entire company. 

511
00:26:57,100 --> 00:27:00,800
Saying, not only it's important 
to bring these issues forward. 

512
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,100
We want you to talk about bias 
that you're experiencing. 

513
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,200
It's important to say that, 
right? 

514
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,000
We want to hear about it, but 
then think about the impact when

515
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:12,700
she's able to say I've 
experienced bias myself. 

516
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,800
And when I told the company 
about it, here's what they did. 

517
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:20,000
That's going to have so much 
more power than just saying it 

518
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,200
alone. 
It's one thing to say, oh we 

519
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:25,100
have great Mental Health 
Resources available in the 

520
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:27,400
company and they're free and 
they're confidential. 

521
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:29,900
It's another thing to say, we 
have great Mental Health 

522
00:27:29,900 --> 00:27:32,600
Resources available in the 
company, they're free, they're 

523
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,300
confidential and they really 
helped me when I needed it. 

524
00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:39,400
So this is the, I think crucial 
piece of leadership is 

525
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,400
recognizing that it's not 
enough. 

526
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,500
Just to tell other people that 
Okay, we have to be willing to 

527
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:48,600
model that ourselves. 
Thank you for sharing such great

528
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,100
examples stories from the real 
world. 

529
00:27:51,100 --> 00:27:53,900
And how much impact it made if 
we handle these kind of 

530
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:56,600
situations. 
Well, so especially for managers

531
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,300
or I think we are not trained, 
maybe in the school, maybe in 

532
00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:02,400
the University or in a previous 
workplace, but sometimes when it

533
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,100
happened, we got struggling. 
Like, okay. 

534
00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:07,000
How should I deal with this? 
And I think your first tips is 

535
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,800
actually to respond. 
Well, if you see this kind of 

536
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,700
traumatic experience in the 
workplace, I think that's for 

537
00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:13,400
me. 
Manager, right? 

538
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,900
Because sometimes there are 
managers who want to avoid 

539
00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:18,600
difficult conversations or 
difficult situation, simply 

540
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,900
because he had a, just never 
navigate that before. 

541
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:23,800
And I think the first tips here 
is like, try to respond. 

542
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,500
Well, ignoring the problem will 
not make things better. 

543
00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,600
The person themselves will 
probably not get better by 

544
00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,100
themselves. 
So having that options for the 

545
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,900
managers to talk with the person
will actually help and I think 

546
00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:38,900
one other important thing is 
that you mentioned the manager 

547
00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,800
is not there to be like a 
psychiatrist or psychologist. 

548
00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:45,700
Help fix the problem. 
So maybe tell us more about this

549
00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:48,500
because some man I just want to 
be a problem solver, right? 

550
00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:51,300
They always want to find 
Solutions but maybe this is not 

551
00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:54,100
a good idea in this situation. 
So maybe tell us more how 

552
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:56,400
managers should react not as a 
problem solver? 

553
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:01,400
Yeah, absolutely. 
It is tempting often the ways 

554
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,300
that we became managers the ways
that we became leaders is by 

555
00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:06,000
being really good problem, 
solvers. 

556
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,100
And so we have learned to do it 
almost instinctively. 

557
00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:12,800
So somebody comes in and says I 
have a problem. 

558
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:16,000
Problem and your brain is 
instantly going to, how do I 

559
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,200
solve this, or at least reframe 
it. 

560
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:22,400
So it seems a little better but 
the reality is what people want 

561
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:27,000
in these moments is somebody to 
listen to and acknowledge them. 

562
00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:30,400
So when somebody comes to you 
and says, for instance, my 

563
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,400
spouse is very sick. 
Yes, it's important that they 

564
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:36,700
understand about leave. 
That's available to them before 

565
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:39,800
you get there and sharing that 
you first have to let them know 

566
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,800
that you heard them. 
So just say something. 

567
00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:48,800
Like I'm so sorry or thanks for 
letting me know or that sounds 

568
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,900
really hard. 
So just something that shows 

569
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:54,600
them that you heard them and 
it's incredible. 

570
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,500
Henry, I hope that people do try
this because you can almost 

571
00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:01,300
watch it happen like their 
shoulders will drop. 

572
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:05,600
You just see the sense of calm 
come over them like, oh good, 

573
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,600
you heard me. 
One of my favorite quotes is 

574
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,500
people don't care how much, you 
know, until they know how much 

575
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:14,500
you care. 
Just letting them know. 

576
00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:15,900
I care. 
I hear you. 

577
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,300
I acknowledge that you're going 
through something hard. 

578
00:30:18,300 --> 00:30:21,700
Is often the most helpful thing 
that we can do. 

579
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,500
Especially I would say for 
people who are leaders When 

580
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:28,300
leaders in particular people 
that are viewed, as being in 

581
00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:32,400
positions of authority, are 
supportive and show people that 

582
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,400
they're believed, it really 
makes a tremendous difference in

583
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,300
their healing. 
So, thanks for sharing this. 

584
00:30:38,500 --> 00:30:41,700
I was myself trying to be a 
problem solver when people came 

585
00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:44,500
with this kind of situation, I 
must also say it's a wrong 

586
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:46,700
thing, don't do that 
consciously. 

587
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:49,900
So purse is this listen 
acknowledge if you have some 

588
00:30:49,900 --> 00:30:52,600
tips some support maybe you can 
share but yeah, don't try to 

589
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,700
solve their problems because 
some of these probably are 

590
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:57,900
difficult and maybe only 
professionals are able to help. 

591
00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:00,700
So we don't want to worsen the 
situation as well by giving the 

592
00:31:00,700 --> 00:31:04,100
wrong tips or words is like 
triggering their emotions 

593
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:06,600
further, they will spiral to the
real situation. 

594
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:09,300
So, thanks for sharing these 
tips, your title of the book 

595
00:31:09,300 --> 00:31:11,700
actually mentioned about 
empathetic workplace. 

596
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:15,100
So the key word here, Here is 
empathy, what kind of things are

597
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:17,200
probably would suggest to 
managers here to actually 

598
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:19,800
improve their empathy because I 
think one of the most important 

599
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,000
skills when handling, this 
situation is actually to have 

600
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,900
empathy. 
So maybe if you can share a 

601
00:31:23,908 --> 00:31:26,800
little bit more about empathy. 
Absolutely. 

602
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,700
So one of the things I think is 
so essential to empathy is 

603
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:36,700
curiosity, just a willingness to
observe and get curious about 

604
00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:39,500
what's going on. 
So imagine you're in your 

605
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:42,800
regular staff meeting and you 
ask David. 

606
00:31:43,100 --> 00:31:46,500
About a project that he's 
working on but you notice as 

607
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:51,100
soon as David starts talking 
Jill and Jessica look at each 

608
00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:57,000
other like just notice that and 
then curious, right? 

609
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,200
Like, I wonder why what's going 
on there? 

610
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:02,000
Maybe it's just one of them has 
a crush on him or something 

611
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,200
completely irrelevant. 
Or maybe it's that one of them 

612
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,400
is actually the one doing the 
work that David is taking credit

613
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:14,100
for or one of them is frustrated
that that she was supposed to be

614
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:17,900
on the team, doing it and David 
is cutting her out or maybe it's

615
00:32:17,900 --> 00:32:20,200
that, they know that David is 
lying to you about. 

616
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,600
What he's saying that he's 
gotten done on this project 

617
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,200
already. 
Just notice that and get 

618
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,300
curious. 
So I think that's one of the 

619
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:31,000
keys for any kind of managers. 
And any kind of leadership 

620
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,500
position is just being willing 
to watch what's going on around 

621
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,400
you. 
You can practice that in 

622
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:42,600
non-work situations, go out to a
restaurant and just observe a 

623
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,100
Sitting at the next table and 
notice who does a lot of the 

624
00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:50,200
talking and who doesn't notice. 
One of the kids is really acting

625
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,500
out and get curious about why 
maybe she's jealous of her 

626
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:57,500
brother about something just 
start to observe behaviors of 

627
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:00,800
people around you and get 
curious about what's going on. 

628
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:05,900
And then the next thing is take 
the step of asking, so you've 

629
00:33:05,900 --> 00:33:09,400
observed this is what's going on
in the meetings. 

630
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:13,900
So now is a good time to maybe 
follow up with Jessica or Jill 

631
00:33:13,900 --> 00:33:17,800
and ask an open-ended question, 
just one-on-one, maybe at a 

632
00:33:17,808 --> 00:33:19,700
weekly check-in, or something 
like that. 

633
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:23,400
Or an easy conversation? 
Hey, Jill, I noticed in the 

634
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:25,500
staff meeting when David 
started, talking, you and 

635
00:33:25,508 --> 00:33:27,100
Jessica were kind of looking at 
each other. 

636
00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:29,500
I just wanted to see. 
Is there anything going on? 

637
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:33,300
What's going on with that? 
Just open ended question. 

638
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:37,900
And then, listen and listen to 
understand, not to tell them why

639
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,500
they're wrong or explain how to 
solve the problem. 

640
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:44,700
Just listen to understand. 
So I feel like if you can just 

641
00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:48,000
work on those few skills, just 
practice them over the next 

642
00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:52,300
couple of weeks. 
Observe, and then ask and listen

643
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:55,700
other things that can be really 
helpful, I think, for leaders, 

644
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:59,500
in terms of building up, empathy
are to educate yourself. 

645
00:33:59,900 --> 00:34:03,400
All of us have teams filled with
people who have very different 

646
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,800
backgrounds from our own. 
We don't know much about the 

647
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,100
life experiences of the people 
that we are working with 

648
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:12,199
everyday. 
So another good thing to do is 

649
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,400
start to educate yourself. 
If there's somebody on your team

650
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,900
for instance who has a 
disability that you don't know 

651
00:34:16,900 --> 00:34:19,600
much about learn a little bit 
about it. 

652
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,100
There's lots of great 
information. 

653
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:25,199
Everything from TV shows to 
movie is to podcast blog posts, 

654
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,199
a million different ways to 
learn more. 

655
00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,400
So educate yourself a little bit
about different backgrounds and 

656
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,100
experiences just so you can know
a little bit about it. 

657
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:37,800
Maybe somebody is of a religion 
that you don't know much about. 

658
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:39,500
That's something that happened 
on. 

659
00:34:39,500 --> 00:34:42,300
One of my teams, there was a 
woman who was of a religion 

660
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:44,100
where they didn't Liberate 
holidays. 

661
00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:47,600
I mean, I worried about this for
longer than I should have. 

662
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,199
I usually gave people Presence 
at the end of the year and I 

663
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,800
thought, what do I do, like, do 
I not give her a present? 

664
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,100
But give everybody else one 
which seems offensive or do I 

665
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:58,900
give her one even though I know 
she doesn't celebrate a holiday 

666
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:01,100
and like, maybe that's the 
offensive thing. 

667
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:03,800
So, I've really struggled with 
this for so long. 

668
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,600
I finally did a little bit of 
research on it, but it didn't 

669
00:35:07,600 --> 00:35:10,400
feel like it gave me the answer.
So then the key was I just went 

670
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,600
and asked her and I said Ed. 
Hey listen, this is my usual 

671
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,800
practice. 
I don't know what would be 

672
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:19,300
appropriate for you. 
How would you like me to handle 

673
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:21,200
it? 
And she said, well, if it's a 

674
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,000
Christmas present, I don't want 
that. 

675
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,700
But if it's just a gift to 
acknowledge, all the work that 

676
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:28,200
I've done over the year, well 
that would certainly be welcome 

677
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:31,300
and I thought that's not that 
hard. 

678
00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,500
I don't know why I was so hard 
for me to think of that but I 

679
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:38,400
feel like I'm so glad that she 
was able to tell me that that 

680
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:40,200
year, you know, I gave plants 
out. 

681
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,600
Some people got a red one. 
If they celebrated Christmas and

682
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,500
people Out of Blue Ribbon. 
If they celebrated Hanukkah, she

683
00:35:45,500 --> 00:35:47,100
just got a white ribbon and a 
general. 

684
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:49,600
Thank you note. 
It was not hard to do, but I had

685
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:54,100
to be willing to ask and learn. 
So I think that's the final key 

686
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:57,000
in terms of empathy is just make
the effort to really try to 

687
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:00,000
understand people and not just 
their cultural backgrounds 

688
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:02,000
either. 
Learn about what sports, they're

689
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:05,200
into, what are they do? 
In their spare time, have easy 

690
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,600
connection conversations just 
learn about who they are. 

691
00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:12,700
Those little connections that we
make over just silly things. 

692
00:36:12,900 --> 00:36:15,700
Like oh you like cats are you 
like crossword? 

693
00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:20,000
Puzzles those little silly 
connections can help so much in 

694
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,200
particular later on when 
something is challenging. 

695
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,400
You know you're going to have to
have hard conversation with 

696
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,000
somebody. 
If you have that solid 

697
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,100
foundation of a lot of easygoing
conversations already, it'll 

698
00:36:31,100 --> 00:36:34,400
make the harder ones a lot 
easier to thank you for sharing 

699
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,300
your funny story on how to deal 
with the situation. 

700
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:39,900
So I think the last part here, 
educate yourself is really 

701
00:36:39,900 --> 00:36:42,800
important because nowadays, we 
work in a remote team set up. 

702
00:36:42,900 --> 00:36:45,100
Maybe people with a lot of 
diversity, right? 

703
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:48,700
Be it, cultural religion, sexual
orientation, whatever that is. 

704
00:36:49,100 --> 00:36:51,600
So I think sometimes if we 
haven't experienced it really 

705
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,500
clueless, sometimes you can 
research on the Internet or even

706
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:57,200
ask you person about it. 
I just want to add one more 

707
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,700
thing also maybe to empathize 
with ourselves, right? 

708
00:36:59,700 --> 00:37:02,300
So when you talk about, 
observing, maybe sometimes you 

709
00:37:02,300 --> 00:37:03,900
can also observe our own 
behavior. 

710
00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:07,100
Things like our breath, our five
senses, which I like when you 

711
00:37:07,100 --> 00:37:09,500
mention in the book, seeing 
whether you actually also 

712
00:37:09,500 --> 00:37:12,600
experiencing the same kind of 
stressful, situation or Bernard,

713
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:15,400
Maybe you also need help 
yourself and talk to somebody 

714
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,800
who can probably help you. 
Maybe let's go to the important 

715
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,400
thing that you mention in the 
book, the laser method, the five

716
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,100
steps to deal with this 
situation. 

717
00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:27,700
So maybe if you can explain what
is laser method, so greatly. 

718
00:37:27,700 --> 00:37:31,700
So as I mentioned earlier, I had
this moment of frustration back 

719
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:36,500
in 2018, where I thought we are 
asking all of these survivors to

720
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:40,900
share their stories as part of 
me too, but not recognizing that

721
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:42,800
you have to respond in a certain
way. 

722
00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:44,600
When somebody shares a story 
with you. 

723
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,100
So that's really what got me 
thinking about how I think 

724
00:37:47,100 --> 00:37:50,900
people should respond. 
I came up with an acronym for it

725
00:37:50,900 --> 00:37:54,200
in part because I spent so many 
years in government, I just 

726
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:58,500
think in acronyms at this point,
but also partly, because I know,

727
00:37:58,500 --> 00:38:01,600
as you were just talking about 
Henry, when somebody comes to 

728
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,200
you, with something heavy, you 
know, they're in a crisis, it's 

729
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,500
stressful like it causes us to, 
maybe feel a little bit 

730
00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:09,600
elevated. 
I'm afraid. 

731
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:10,700
I'm not going to handle it, 
right? 

732
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,700
I don't know what to do so it 
can be helpful. 

733
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,500
Able to have just a little 
guidepost to follow. 

734
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:20,100
And I will say, I have had a lot
of Glock in particular with 

735
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:23,000
people in the tech space 
responding really well. 

736
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,500
I spoke with this guy once he's 
a chief technology officer and 

737
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:30,700
he's probably in his early 30s. 
And he said, you know, I've 

738
00:38:30,700 --> 00:38:32,400
never dealt with any trauma in 
my life. 

739
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,800
He's like, I'm still married. 
My parents are still married. 

740
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,800
I haven't even had a like 
significant break up. 

741
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,600
My grandparents are still alive.
Like I've had like no trauma in 

742
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,800
my life, but He was doing, he 
had this great project where he 

743
00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:50,000
had developed an algorithm that 
could search out new stories 

744
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,000
about anti-asian hate here in 
the US, which is really Sky 

745
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:57,500
rocketing through the pandemic. 
What he was doing was reaching 

746
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:00,700
out, he would find the victims 
and he would send them an email 

747
00:39:00,700 --> 00:39:03,800
and say, I understand you've 
been the victim of this horrific

748
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:05,500
crime and there are supports 
available. 

749
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,400
If you want Reach Out, here's 
how to reach me and I'll share 

750
00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,000
them with you but he thought, I 
don't know how to have those 

751
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:12,800
conversations. 
I don't know what to do. 

752
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,000
To do. 
So we talked about it and talked

753
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,800
him through laser e, read the 
book and he called me about a 

754
00:39:18,808 --> 00:39:20,300
month later. 
And he said, you know, I got to 

755
00:39:20,308 --> 00:39:23,800
tell you, I reached out to 
somebody who had been a victim 

756
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:26,700
of a hate crime. 
The neighbor had been driving by

757
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:29,600
her house and spraying paint gun
at it. 

758
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,000
So, it was this real feeling of 
not safe in her own home. 

759
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,700
Her neighbors are attacking her.
I mean, that's a really scary 

760
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:40,600
awful feeling and he said, he 
talked to her for about an hour 

761
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,700
and he walked through the laser 
Take with her, he said at the 

762
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:47,800
end of it, she said, you know, 
I've spoken to the police and 

763
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,200
prosecutors have talked to 
journalists and nobody has made 

764
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,800
me feel heard and understood 
like you did, he was so proud of

765
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,000
himself, and I was proud of him 
to what an amazing thing, right?

766
00:39:59,300 --> 00:40:02,600
I've raised this just to say, if
you follow it, it really does 

767
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,000
work. 
And it's not that hard. 

768
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:08,600
So I'll talk you through it now.
So, step, one of laser is listen

769
00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:12,500
what I say with listening is its
active listening, so it's not 

770
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:16,100
just Just be quiet and let the 
person talk, it's create the 

771
00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:19,400
circumstances where the person 
feels comfortable opening up. 

772
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:22,100
One way to do. 
That is ask questions. 

773
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:25,400
Ask open-ended questions, how 
are you doing? 

774
00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,100
Where did you go next? 
What's Happening Now? 

775
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,700
Open ended questions? 
Let people know that we want to 

776
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:33,000
hear from them and then you 
don't just sit there silently. 

777
00:40:33,000 --> 00:40:35,100
Of course you nod. 
You say, aha? 

778
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:37,800
Yes, you encourage them to go on
another. 

779
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,600
One of my favorite active, 
listening techniques is looping,

780
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:42,700
which is where you just say 
back. 

781
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,900
A few of the words that the 
person just said, so maybe they 

782
00:40:45,900 --> 00:40:47,700
say, I'm just so angry about 
everything. 

783
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:51,000
My father is going through right
now and you say gosh, you must 

784
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,500
be so angry about everything. 
Your father is going through 

785
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:55,200
right now. 
It sounds like a trick. 

786
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,800
You're literally just mimicking,
the same words back but in my 

787
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,100
experience people are like, ah, 
yes. 

788
00:41:01,100 --> 00:41:03,100
Finally, somebody understands 
me. 

789
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,200
I think the key is that we're 
using the exact same words. 

790
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,200
So angry is a little different 
than frustrated or upset when we

791
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,300
use their words, we Demonstrate.
First of all, that we're 

792
00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:16,900
listening because we couldn't 
use their words if we weren't 

793
00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:20,800
but it's also really validating.
Another thing to remember, as 

794
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,100
you talked about a little bit 
earlier is, as we are listening,

795
00:41:24,100 --> 00:41:27,600
we have to be managing our own 
response sometimes when we are 

796
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:30,400
in that stressful moment of 
gosh, I don't know if I'm going 

797
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,400
to be able to support this 
person or what they're talking 

798
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,800
about is really hard and I feel 
scared for them or sad for them 

799
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,000
or angry for them. 
We start to have our own 

800
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:41,500
emotional reactions. 
We just have to be mindful of 

801
00:41:41,500 --> 00:41:42,700
that. 
Keep breathing. 

802
00:41:42,900 --> 00:41:45,500
Through it. 
Another technique that I really 

803
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:48,100
like is engage one of your five 
senses. 

804
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:52,200
So notice the smell of coffee in
the Next Room or look around the

805
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,700
room and count a few, you know, 
three blue things that you see 

806
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:58,500
or put your hand on the desk in 
front of you and notice, is it 

807
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:01,600
feels smooth or rough. 
One of those techniques can 

808
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,200
really ground you in the present
moment and help you feel a 

809
00:42:04,200 --> 00:42:07,300
little bit calmer as you're 
hearing that story helps you to 

810
00:42:07,300 --> 00:42:09,900
stay present. 
So that was all step. 

811
00:42:09,900 --> 00:42:13,300
One step two is acknowledge we 
talked about About this a little

812
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:17,000
bit earlier, but it's this idea 
that when they finish talking, 

813
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,400
you know, it's great that you've
been listening the whole time 

814
00:42:19,400 --> 00:42:22,400
and that's really important but 
they also need to feel heard. 

815
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,300
That's like a second piece of it
is making sure they feel heard 

816
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,500
that can be just a simple 
statement of. 

817
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:30,700
Thank you for letting me know 
that and I'm sorry for 

818
00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:34,200
everything you're going through.
The key is to avoid statements 

819
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,400
that either deny or distract 
from what they've shared with 

820
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:39,400
you. 
So it denial is something like 

821
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,600
oh I'm sure it's all going to be
fine or it's probably not as 

822
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:45,100
bad. 
Does she think a distraction is 

823
00:42:45,100 --> 00:42:47,700
something like oh a friend of 
mine, went through something 

824
00:42:47,700 --> 00:42:49,400
similar. 
So let me tell you about what he

825
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:54,000
did and how he was just fine. 
A distraction can also be well 

826
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,900
really you just need to focus on
your kids right now or you have 

827
00:42:57,900 --> 00:43:00,300
to make sure you're taking care 
of yourself. 

828
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:02,300
What are you doing to take care 
of yourself? 

829
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:06,300
Those are all maybe important 
things to share down the line. 

830
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:09,000
It may be great to talk with 
them about how they're taking 

831
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:11,000
care of themselves. 
But in that moment, what they 

832
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,200
mostly need is just to feel her.
Heard. 

833
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:16,300
So make sure you don't skip that
step because I will say, every 

834
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:20,400
time I've seen one of these 
conversations start to go badly,

835
00:43:20,700 --> 00:43:24,400
it's been because the person 
needs more acknowledgement, so 

836
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,100
acknowledge what they've shared 
and then the third step is share

837
00:43:28,100 --> 00:43:31,100
information. 
This can be any information you 

838
00:43:31,100 --> 00:43:33,100
have about the incident. 
If this is something for 

839
00:43:33,100 --> 00:43:36,400
instance, like an incident of 
workplace violence, people are 

840
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,800
going to have a lot of questions
about what happened who was 

841
00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:41,600
involved, but the police been 
called, they're going to be a 

842
00:43:41,607 --> 00:43:45,000
lot of questions. 
So you can share any information

843
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,000
that you have. 
That's a great thing to share 

844
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,700
sometimes though, you don't have
any information to share this 

845
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:52,600
person coming to you is the 
first time you've heard anything

846
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,000
about this. 
There's still other types of 

847
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:58,600
information you can share so you
can share process information. 

848
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,800
Here's what happens next. 
Here's Who's involved in these 

849
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:07,200
types of Investigations, you can
share values information. 

850
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:12,000
So things like our organization 
takes employee safety, very 

851
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:13,100
seriously. 
Ali. 

852
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:16,600
We have no tolerance for 
bullying at our school, that 

853
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:20,000
kind of statement of value 
statement can be very helpful as

854
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:21,700
well. 
And then finally even sharing 

855
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:23,700
what you don't know, but hope to
learn. 

856
00:44:23,700 --> 00:44:26,400
So say I don't actually know how
these complaints are handled but

857
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,100
I'll find out and get back to 
you when you admit that you 

858
00:44:30,100 --> 00:44:32,500
don't know the answer it 
actually builds trust. 

859
00:44:32,500 --> 00:44:35,500
It shows that you're somebody 
who's not going to pretend that 

860
00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:39,600
you know, more than you do. 
So even sharing that you don't 

861
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,600
know, the answer can be helpful 
and then the fourth step is 

862
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:47,000
Empower, the step is about 
recognizing that this person is 

863
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,600
going to go on after this 
conversation and they have a 

864
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,900
whole path ahead of them of 
their own healing from this 

865
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:56,400
incident or experience. 
We can't walk that path for 

866
00:44:56,400 --> 00:44:58,900
them. 
We have to recognize that 

867
00:44:58,900 --> 00:45:01,100
they're going to go on, they're 
going to take the steps that 

868
00:45:01,100 --> 00:45:03,800
they need for healing. 
We can't take that away from 

869
00:45:03,800 --> 00:45:06,700
them, but we can give them some 
tools to take with them. 

870
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,300
And those tools can be some of 
the things we talked about 

871
00:45:09,300 --> 00:45:12,500
earlier, like having mental 
health, supports around having a

872
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:14,400
lie. 
Leave policy for domestic. 

873
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,400
Violence is a great thing to 
have. 

874
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:21,000
So letting people know that 
there are supports out there and

875
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:25,000
then letting them decide whether
to access them, it can be 

876
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,700
tempting. 
Particularly if you are a 

877
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:30,800
variable thetic person or a real
problem, solver to say not just 

878
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:34,400
here is the support out there, 
but also let me set up that 

879
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,300
appointment for you and then 
make sure that you went in fact,

880
00:45:37,300 --> 00:45:38,600
I'll drive you to the 
appointment. 

881
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:41,500
That just try to put a rein on 
that. 

882
00:45:41,500 --> 00:45:44,700
Remember your goal? 
Just to give them tools and let 

883
00:45:44,700 --> 00:45:47,000
them decide what steps they want
to take on their own. 

884
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,500
That's why it's called Empower, 
you're giving them those tools 

885
00:45:50,500 --> 00:45:54,400
and let them take those steps 
themselves and then the final 

886
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,800
step is return. 
So, we've done, listen 

887
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:01,900
acknowledge, share Empower, and 
now we're on return and return 

888
00:46:01,900 --> 00:46:04,300
is really. 
It's kind of two facets of it. 

889
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:07,500
The first is literally returning
to the person to check in and 

890
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:09,900
let them know that you're still 
a resource answer. 

891
00:46:09,900 --> 00:46:13,400
Any additional questions. 
I actually like to Under that 

892
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,400
because you'll forget even if 
you think this was such an 

893
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,400
important conversation, of 
course, I won't forget 

894
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,600
everything he's going through. 
You will you get busy? 

895
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,900
We all get busy. 
So, I will just put it on my 

896
00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:25,300
calendar, two weeks as Circle 
back. 

897
00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:29,300
I do see, be James Ray. 
What's going on with his dad? 

898
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:32,700
And then, I just send them a 
quick email, or text or message.

899
00:46:32,700 --> 00:46:34,300
Letting him know I'm thinking of
him. 

900
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:35,800
Hope everything's okay with this
dad. 

901
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,400
Let me know if there's anything 
I can do. 

902
00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:40,500
So, just quick check-in, it 
really means a lot to people. 

903
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,000
And then finally returning to 
Yourself recognizing that. 

904
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,600
This is hard. 
There have been a lot of 

905
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,700
Statistics lately on leadership 
fatigue. 

906
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:52,700
That leading through this time 
has been really hard and taken a

907
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:55,500
toll on people. 
And part of that, I think comes 

908
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:59,200
from the fact that we're trying 
so hard to support people or 

909
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,600
teams through these. 
Really challenging experiences 

910
00:47:03,100 --> 00:47:05,700
we have to take care of 
ourselves along the way or we're

911
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:08,400
not going to be any good for 
anybody else, who needs us. 

912
00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:11,600
So my best advice on that and 
this is speaking as somebody 

913
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,800
who's not always been very Good 
at self care. 

914
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:17,600
I think that you should try to 
have a daily reset to something 

915
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:21,100
that you do every day. 
That's just about taking care of

916
00:47:21,100 --> 00:47:24,400
you burnout, compassion. 
Fatigue is one of those things 

917
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,500
that sneaks up on you over time.
So it's one of those areas where

918
00:47:28,500 --> 00:47:30,300
the best defense is a good 
offense. 

919
00:47:30,300 --> 00:47:33,700
You have to affirmatively 
protect yourself from burnout. 

920
00:47:33,700 --> 00:47:36,900
So a daily reset could be 
something like going for a walk 

921
00:47:36,900 --> 00:47:41,000
everyday at lunch or playing the
piano for 30 minutes after 

922
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,300
dinner or saying Prayer. 
Before you go to bed, just 

923
00:47:44,300 --> 00:47:47,200
something that you do that's 
just a little reset for yourself

924
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:49,700
every day. 
Another great one is gratitude 

925
00:47:49,700 --> 00:47:52,600
listing three things that you're
grateful for every morning can 

926
00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:55,100
be a good one. 
So just something that you do 

927
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:58,800
every day that's just for you. 
The second thing is lean on 

928
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,600
others, just right now I would 
challenge you. 

929
00:48:01,600 --> 00:48:04,100
Can you think of five people 
that you could call when you're 

930
00:48:04,100 --> 00:48:06,900
having a bad day? 
And then once you have your 

931
00:48:06,900 --> 00:48:10,000
five, remember to reach out to 
them, I think we often worried 

932
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,200
that we're burdening people when
we reach out And share the 

933
00:48:13,200 --> 00:48:14,800
things that were struggling 
with. 

934
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:18,500
But I imagine that the people 
that you've named are not people

935
00:48:18,500 --> 00:48:20,800
that if they called you, you 
would feel like, oh, what a 

936
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,800
burden he is for calling me, 
you'd be grateful, right? 

937
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:28,300
And so recognize that they feel 
the same way about you calling 

938
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:31,200
them finally, know your warning 
sign. 

939
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:34,200
So by that, I mean the signs 
that you're beginning to suffer 

940
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:37,200
from burnout. 
Those can be things like you're 

941
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,400
a little bit more short, 
tempered than normal may be a 

942
00:48:39,408 --> 00:48:42,400
little bit more sarcastic. 
I've gotta admit Henry, one of 

943
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,300
my I start swearing more. 
I'm not somebody who swears very

944
00:48:46,300 --> 00:48:48,600
often. 
So, if suddenly, I start 

945
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,000
sounding like a sailor, I know 
that like, oh, there's something

946
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,000
going on with me. 
Another one is the things that 

947
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,000
normally are fun for you. 
Start to feel like a burden. 

948
00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:02,200
So normally, maybe you're 
somebody who really enjoys 

949
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:06,600
cooking or drawing or anything 
if suddenly, that starts to feel

950
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:10,000
like another thing on my to-do 
list, that's often a sign that 

951
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:11,600
you're beginning to suffer from 
burnout. 

952
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,700
And when you notice Those signs 
that's an indication that you 

953
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:18,000
need to double down on those 
first two, so, recommit to your 

954
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,000
self-care and then also reach 
out to others for support. 

955
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,400
Well, thank you for such 
comprehensive walkthrough of the

956
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,400
laser method. 
So let me just repeat one more 

957
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:29,300
time. 
Laser stands for listen, 

958
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:32,300
acknowledge share and power and 
return. 

959
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,800
So I just want to mention also 
another thing, right? 

960
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,700
So for people who are not in the
probably Authority situation, 

961
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:41,400
even by listening and 
acknowledging when maybe appears

962
00:49:41,400 --> 00:49:44,900
or friends, Trying to tell about
their traumatic experience can 

963
00:49:44,900 --> 00:49:48,500
actually be helpful while 
sharing power and maybe return, 

964
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:49,800
right? 
Sometimes when you are in a 

965
00:49:49,808 --> 00:49:52,500
place of authority, you can have
more options to help these 

966
00:49:52,500 --> 00:49:55,100
people, and for example, 
creating a policy to help these 

967
00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:56,800
people. 
So I think listening 

968
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,700
acknowledging all those sounds 
simple, but it's actually very 

969
00:49:59,700 --> 00:50:03,200
difficult, and it's actually 
very useful to the person who 

970
00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:05,100
convey their traumatic 
experience. 

971
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:07,400
So I just want to make sure that
people know about this. 

972
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,800
Listen acknowledge it is really 
important and I really love when

973
00:50:10,800 --> 00:50:13,200
you mention at the end about 
written, so many Many things 

974
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:15,900
that you mentioned about daily 
reset, and things like that. 

975
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:18,800
I think the job of a manager or 
leader these days have become 

976
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,100
really challenging, maybe in the
fuuka world having to deal with 

977
00:50:22,100 --> 00:50:25,100
so many kind of disruption 
people issues as well. 

978
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:27,700
So, I think leadership fatigue, 
or you also mentioned in your 

979
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:30,900
book compassion fatigue, having 
to be able to always show 

980
00:50:30,900 --> 00:50:33,300
compassion. 
It's actually really difficult. 

981
00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:36,300
So, I think the key here is 
always have a daily reset. 

982
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:39,000
Try to also feel, you know, 
acknowledge what you're going 

983
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,400
through and find the support. 
Don't forget. 

984
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:45,000
That leaders also our And we 
need support sometimes as well. 

985
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:47,400
So don't forget about that. 
We are not always have to be 

986
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,000
tough. 
So Catherine it's been a really 

987
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:51,900
Pleasant conversation really 
love this. 

988
00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:55,300
I hope people also get a lot of 
tips and advice how to deal with

989
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:59,000
this situation because I'm sure 
one day us leaders will face 

990
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:01,300
this situation. 
Although, maybe the challenge, 

991
00:51:01,300 --> 00:51:04,200
or the level will be different. 
Yes, everyone will have to go 

992
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:05,800
through this before I let you 
go. 

993
00:51:05,800 --> 00:51:09,200
Actually, I have one last 
question which I always ask to 

994
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:11,900
all my guests, so this is 
something called three technical

995
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:14,200
leadership is Um, but, I mean, 
we can forget about the 

996
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,600
techniques, so maybe Catherine, 
if you can share your tree 

997
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,700
version of leadership wisdom for
people to learn from you. 

998
00:51:20,300 --> 00:51:22,500
Absolutely. 
So, you know, with my background

999
00:51:22,500 --> 00:51:24,500
of course, it's going to be 
focused on trauma. 

1000
00:51:25,900 --> 00:51:30,600
So mine is number one recognize 
that people that you're working 

1001
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,600
with are dealing with challenges
that you may have no idea about 

1002
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:39,100
number to know that the way that
you support them through that 

1003
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:42,500
challenge, can have a 
long-lasting impact on their 

1004
00:51:42,600 --> 00:51:46,300
cool well-being and also on the 
health of your team and then 

1005
00:51:46,300 --> 00:51:49,900
finally take the steps to 
support them and always to 

1006
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:52,100
support yourself as well as your
doing. 

1007
00:51:52,100 --> 00:51:54,600
So. 
Wow, really beautiful. 

1008
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,800
Thanks for sharing this wisdom. 
Very, very concise, but it's 

1009
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,200
really meaningful. 
So, Catherine, if people want to

1010
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,200
learn more about you or maybe 
for like this composition, is 

1011
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,500
there a place where they can 
reach out or find you online? 

1012
00:52:07,300 --> 00:52:10,200
Yeah, absolutely. 
So I'm probably most active on 

1013
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:11,800
LinkedIn and it's just 
Catherine. 

1014
00:52:11,800 --> 00:52:17,400
Manning Catherine is spelled 
katherine1965 allay our int so 

1015
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:18,700
LinkedIn. 
Please reach out. 

1016
00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:20,200
I would love to connect with 
people there. 

1017
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:22,500
You can also go to Catherine, 
Manning.com. 

1018
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:25,300
Cam and see all of the different
ways to get in touch with me 

1019
00:52:25,300 --> 00:52:28,600
through my website. 
Sure, I'll make sure to have 

1020
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:31,400
that in the show notes as well. 
So Catherine, thank you so much 

1021
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:34,100
for your time, really love this 
conversation and I hope it can 

1022
00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:36,600
help so many leaders out there 
who are faced with this 

1023
00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:38,400
situation. 
So, thanks again for that. 

1024
00:52:38,900 --> 00:52:44,000
Thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1025
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:47,400
episode and for staying, right 
until the end if you highly 

1026
00:52:47,400 --> 00:52:49,800
enjoyed it. 
I would appreciate if you share 

1027
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,100
it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

1028
00:52:52,100 --> 00:52:54,500
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

1029
00:52:54,800 --> 00:52:57,600
And if you're new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

1030
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,100
and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

1031
00:53:00,300 --> 00:53:02,800
It helps me a lot. 
In order to grow this podcast 

1032
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:04,900
better. 
You can also find the full show 

1033
00:53:04,900 --> 00:53:08,400
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page, at Tech Legion

1034
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:12,500
o.f website, including the full 
transcript enter, I think words 

1035
00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:15,200
and links to the resources 
mentioned, from the 

1036
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,000
conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1037
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,300
subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on package. 

1038
00:53:20,300 --> 00:53:23,900
You know, dot f to get notified 
for any future episodes. 

1039
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:25,800
Stay tuned for the next 
technology. 

1040
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,700
No episode. 
And until then goodbye.