1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:03,500 And I think that's a lot of where the agile and devops side 2 00:00:03,500 --> 00:00:05,400 of things. They tend to miss in the lot of 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:08,500 the implementations people focus on the tools, they focus on the 4 00:00:08,500 --> 00:00:11,700 processes. But what was most important was 5 00:00:11,700 --> 00:00:14,100 that you actually understood what were the actual Target 6 00:00:14,100 --> 00:00:16,700 outcomes that your customers trying to get to. 7 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:20,200 And then being able to establish the right level of shared 8 00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:23,700 situational awareness, across the team to be able to allow 9 00:00:23,700 --> 00:00:26,900 everyone to be able to make the right decisions to be able to 10 00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:30,500 safely fail. And to actually be able to Learn 11 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:38,100 and improve from all of that. Hey everyone. 12 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:40,500 My name is Henry Surya, we Robin. 13 00:00:42,100 --> 00:00:45,000 And you're listening to the technology, you know, podcast 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,700 the show where I'll be bringing you the greatest technical 15 00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:51,600 leaders practitioners and thought leaders in the industry 16 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,300 to discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all 17 00:00:56,300 --> 00:00:59,900 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 18 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,700 and to make an impact in your personal work. 19 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:11,300 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello again, to all of you, my 20 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:13,900 friends and my listeners after a one-week break. 21 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:16,400 I am back here again with a new episode of the package. 22 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:18,900 You know, podcast the podcast where you can learn about 23 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:21,100 technical leadership and Excellence from my 24 00:01:21,100 --> 00:01:23,400 conversations, with great thought leaders in the tech 25 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:25,700 industry. If you haven't, please follow 26 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:28,900 the show on your podcast app and social media on LinkedIn. 27 00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:31,800 Twitter and Instagram. And to appreciate and support my 28 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,900 work. Subscribe as a patron at 29 00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:35,800 technology. No, dot f / Patron. 30 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,500 Or you can also feel me with coffee at technology. 31 00:01:38,500 --> 00:01:42,400 Know that death / tip? My guest for today's episode is 32 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,500 Robert Benefield. Robert is the author of lean 33 00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:47,900 develops. A practical guide to on-demand 34 00:01:47,900 --> 00:01:50,200 Service delivery in this episode. 35 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,200 Robert shared insights on how we can apply the Linda, Rob's 36 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:57,400 mindset for building successful. It delivery organizations Robert 37 00:01:57,400 --> 00:02:00,300 started by sharing what initiated him writing the book 38 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,400 and how it differs from the other available devops books, 39 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,000 Robert describe the concept of on-demand Service delivery. 40 00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:10,400 And important Concepts such as knowing the target outcomes, 41 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:14,100 building situational awareness and making effective And Timely 42 00:02:14,100 --> 00:02:16,100 decisions based on the ooda loop. 43 00:02:16,700 --> 00:02:19,200 Robert also shared a few practices and techniques. 44 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:23,000 He outlined in the book such as Mission command workflow board, 45 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:27,100 Q monster service, engineering lead value, stream, mapping and 46 00:02:27,100 --> 00:02:30,000 Ironhide. This is such a great refresher 47 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:32,500 of the lean mindset combined with the devops culture and 48 00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:35,600 practices and I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and 49 00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:38,400 learning a lot from it. And if you do, it would really 50 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,400 be awesome. If you can also share this 51 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,700 episode with your colleagues, your friends and your 52 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:45,500 communities, and also, don't forget to leave a five star 53 00:02:45,500 --> 00:02:48,500 rating and review on a podcast and Spotify. 54 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,700 It may sound simple but it will help me a lot in getting more 55 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:53,500 people. Discover the podcast on the 56 00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:55,900 platforms. Let's go to the conversation 57 00:02:55,900 --> 00:02:59,100 with Robert after hearing a few words from our sponsors. 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,300 Hey a quick message, for those of you who are listening to this 59 00:03:02,300 --> 00:03:06,900 episode on Spotify, I have a small favor to ask Spotify now 60 00:03:07,100 --> 00:03:10,300 Allows mobile users to rate podcasts, I would really 61 00:03:10,300 --> 00:03:12,800 appreciate it. If you can take a quick pass to 62 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,400 go to the technology on our podcast page and leave your 63 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:18,000 favorite show, your best rating on Spotify. 64 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:21,100 It will help me a lot to get this podcast to reach more 65 00:03:21,100 --> 00:03:26,700 people on the platform. Thanks a lot, everyone. 66 00:03:26,700 --> 00:03:28,900 Welcome back to another new episode of the technology on our 67 00:03:28,900 --> 00:03:31,300 podcast today. I have with me, a guest named 68 00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:33,800 Robert Benefield. He is the author of a book, 69 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:37,200 titled, lean devops. So if you think this This is 70 00:03:37,200 --> 00:03:40,200 just another devops book, I think when you find the book and 71 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:43,700 reread it I think it's really offer something different from 72 00:03:43,700 --> 00:03:46,400 the other devops books that I have read in the past. 73 00:03:46,500 --> 00:03:49,800 So Robert today, I'm really looking forward to discuss about 74 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,000 topics from the books and maybe learn something new from the 75 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,700 angle of perspective of devops compared to the other books. 76 00:03:55,700 --> 00:03:58,500 So welcome to the show. Thank you, Robert. 77 00:03:58,500 --> 00:04:02,100 I always love to ask my guess to introduce themselves by telling 78 00:04:02,100 --> 00:04:05,400 their Caribbean, especially the highlights or turning points 79 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,900 that you feel are useful for This to learn from okay. 80 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:12,000 Yeah my career journey is actually played a really 81 00:04:12,000 --> 00:04:16,000 important role in the way that I think which ultimately is a lot 82 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000 of what the book is about. So while I've always been 83 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,800 interested in technology, I started out playing with piles 84 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:26,200 of components and soldering irons and all that sort of 85 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:27,100 thing. Really. 86 00:04:27,100 --> 00:04:29,800 My true interest of all been around understanding the 87 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,700 Dynamics of systems. So I always wanted to know how 88 00:04:32,700 --> 00:04:35,200 things work. But most importantly, what I 89 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,600 wanted to know was actually how things Is break. 90 00:04:37,700 --> 00:04:40,700 And what causes them to break. This goes with not just 91 00:04:40,700 --> 00:04:44,400 Technical Systems, but also biological and social systems. 92 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:48,900 There is always factors that are unknown or poorly understood 93 00:04:48,900 --> 00:04:50,700 that caused the unexpected to happen. 94 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:54,400 I mean, if you think about it, like, you know, we live in a 95 00:04:54,407 --> 00:04:57,700 crazy day with crazy politics and all kinds of things and 96 00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:00,600 there's all sorts of weird things that happen and it's hard 97 00:05:00,600 --> 00:05:03,900 to actually understand that let alone to be able to go through 98 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:06,900 and reverse it. And so learning how to see what 99 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:09,700 Can and then figuring out how to effectively manage the 100 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:12,400 repercussions of that helps. You actually improve your 101 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:16,700 chances of success. So my career, I studied 102 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,800 aerospace engineering and international relations. 103 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,300 Both our disciplines that require working in a system of 104 00:05:23,300 --> 00:05:27,600 complex systems. And so I realized quite early on 105 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,500 that focusing on just a fragment in isolation, was a sure file 106 00:05:31,500 --> 00:05:35,300 path for failure. So I've been really fortunate in 107 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:37,600 my career. Sometimes I feel Like I was 108 00:05:37,700 --> 00:05:40,000 like, Forrest Gump and how lucky I've been. 109 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,900 So a lot of it was solving problems that no one had 110 00:05:42,900 --> 00:05:45,600 actually ever done before and me being too domed actually 111 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,200 realized that no one had done them before half the time and 112 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:50,300 also having fortuitous circumstances. 113 00:05:50,300 --> 00:05:54,000 So like for instance, I learned a lot of concepts of lean back 114 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:58,000 in the 1980s because I happen to actually run into some 115 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:00,300 industrial Engineers from master sheeta. 116 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:04,100 And so I was interested in engineering and they showed me 117 00:06:04,108 --> 00:06:08,900 industrial engineering and lean and So I took lean as actually 118 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:12,000 being industrial engineering and I took a lot of the learning 119 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,700 start. Similarly later on, I ended up 120 00:06:14,700 --> 00:06:17,600 working for the u.s. government and I met some of the fighter 121 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,600 Mafia of Boyd's fighter Mafia people and the concepts around 122 00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:24,800 Buddha and decision-making. And again I thought that was 123 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:27,900 normal and I thought oh this is how you actually go through and 124 00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:31,200 make effective decisions. And from there, I actually 125 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,700 learned the importance of actually having a shared 126 00:06:33,700 --> 00:06:37,300 understanding of what's going on and the importance of Of 127 00:06:37,300 --> 00:06:40,200 understanding the desired outcomes in the means for 128 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,100 maintaining enough situational awareness to make effective 129 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:46,500 decisions. I saw it with my own eyes that 130 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,300 any weaknesses could lead to bad decisions and failure, even when 131 00:06:50,300 --> 00:06:52,600 you had the best technology money could buy at your 132 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:55,600 fingertips. So, again, at the government, I 133 00:06:55,600 --> 00:06:58,500 was lucky that I was one of the teams that it was originally 134 00:06:58,500 --> 00:07:02,400 tasked on putting the government online built, the first news 135 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:06,200 site, ever, in the first digital audio sight ever on the 136 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:09,200 internet, This was before web browsers. 137 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:13,000 This was before the NCSA web server was out there, we did it 138 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:16,800 with FTP and gopher. So that's how long ago it was. 139 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,400 I then went to a company that was building electronic trading 140 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:22,700 and Crossing systems for investment Banks. 141 00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:26,600 And again it was a brand new world, very few people that 142 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,200 actually been going through and working on this thing and we 143 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,800 were fortunate enough that we got bought by Jeffries because 144 00:07:31,800 --> 00:07:34,200 it was a start-up. And one of the things that was 145 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,000 important there was you needed to First and the business, we 146 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,000 work closely with the Traders. We were technical, we were 147 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,700 helping build the trading strategies and we really needed 148 00:07:44,700 --> 00:07:47,900 to be in tune with what were the desired outcomes that people 149 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:49,400 were trying to go through and Achieve. 150 00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:53,300 Then I went to Silicon Valley, the beginning the.com boom and 151 00:07:53,300 --> 00:07:56,500 managed to go through and helped a bunch of startups. 152 00:07:56,500 --> 00:07:59,900 Get off the ground ones, that many of us have heard of did 153 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:04,200 Road shows, and also crash some and learned from that back. 154 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,800 Then, in the valley, it was a really small world. 155 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:10,400 Everyone knew everyone and I got in arguments with Marc 156 00:08:10,400 --> 00:08:13,800 Andreessen about things. I helped our Gobi off. 157 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,700 It was one of the early people at Google with helping getting 158 00:08:16,700 --> 00:08:20,300 Google off the ground. So it was a really interesting 159 00:08:20,300 --> 00:08:22,700 world to be able to go through and try things out. 160 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,900 And since then I learned all these interesting techniques, I 161 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:30,400 learned what it takes to build effective and scalable and 162 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,799 ultimately successful, delivery organizations how to build 163 00:08:33,799 --> 00:08:38,100 highly productive teams and to figure out, What was that actual 164 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,299 trade off? And I realized that it wasn't 165 00:08:40,299 --> 00:08:43,500 just the really the technology and tools or even the quality of 166 00:08:43,500 --> 00:08:46,700 the engineers. I mean sure that's important 167 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:49,300 kind of like having enough cash on hand to be able to go through 168 00:08:49,300 --> 00:08:52,200 and do things. But what was most important was 169 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,600 that you actually understood what were the actual Target 170 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,700 outcomes that your customers, the people actually use your 171 00:08:57,700 --> 00:09:01,200 stuff or trying to get to. And then being able to establish 172 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,400 the right level of shared situational awareness, across 173 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,200 the team to be able to allow everyone to be able to Make the 174 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:11,900 right decisions to be able to safely fail and to actually be 175 00:09:11,900 --> 00:09:14,500 able to learn and improve from all of that. 176 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:18,100 And I think that's a lot of where the agile and devops side 177 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:20,000 of things. They tend to miss in the lot of 178 00:09:20,008 --> 00:09:23,200 the implementations people focus on the tools, they focus on the 179 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:27,200 processes and well, they can be effective for reducing some of 180 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,900 the noise. The problem is that they miss 181 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:33,300 the point of what is they are actually trying to do, what is 182 00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:34,800 it? You're trying to actually solve. 183 00:09:34,900 --> 00:09:36,800 How can you go through and improve the quality? 184 00:09:36,900 --> 00:09:39,100 And the timeliness of the decisions that you're trying to 185 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:42,300 make. And so I figured all that stuff 186 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:45,100 out and then I thought okay let me go try some things out so I 187 00:09:45,108 --> 00:09:49,700 went to a start-up and we were working on the collaborative 188 00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:52,300 software development environments for both large 189 00:09:52,300 --> 00:09:53,900 companies, as well as open source. 190 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:57,600 So we helped HP Imaging of training isn't one example, 191 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:00,700 rebalance all of the features that they had an older printer 192 00:10:00,700 --> 00:10:05,300 lines and they managed to reduce their delivery lifecycle from 36 193 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:08,200 months to get a new feature out. Down to about two or three 194 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,000 months, you know, big thing, really big thing. 195 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:14,500 And then from it, when I was there, I started to really build 196 00:10:14,500 --> 00:10:17,400 a lot of the devops Centric model that I actually talked 197 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,800 about my book. So how'd it go through and 198 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,900 actually work closely with the customers, how to go through and 199 00:10:23,900 --> 00:10:26,500 combine the operational side of things. 200 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:30,700 With the engineering side of things, we were a truly software 201 00:10:30,700 --> 00:10:34,200 as a service, as was back when I was working at the Investment 202 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,500 Bank that we provided all of our stuff. 203 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:39,700 As a A software as a service, which in the mid-90s was 204 00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:42,600 completely strange. Nobody had actually thought of 205 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:44,800 that. So then I thought, okay, well, 206 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,000 I've done this. Now, let's go and try to do this 207 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:48,900 at scale. So a bunch of the people at the 208 00:10:48,908 --> 00:10:50,700 company. We went to different places, a 209 00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,800 lot went to Google, someone to Facebook, I ended up going to 210 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:59,100 Yahoo and at Yahoo that was a really amazing experience. 211 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:02,700 I was given a complete free hand to do and show what was possible 212 00:11:02,700 --> 00:11:04,800 there. They had just signed service 213 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:09,700 level agreements with AT&T. And with Rogers and with DT and 214 00:11:09,700 --> 00:11:12,100 they were trying to figure out, how do we do that? 215 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,400 How do we go through and actually build things at scale 216 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,000 with high availability? High reliability. 217 00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:22,000 So, one of the things that I worked with people on was 218 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:26,600 pioneering, we called it service engineering, which looked very 219 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,400 similar to what a sari looks like at Google and production 220 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,000 engineering books like at Facebook, we built automated, 221 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:37,300 see ICD pipelines, we call them code, Pipes. 222 00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:41,900 This was before again there was such a thing we created 223 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,800 rudimentary container system before that stuff existed we 224 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,600 also created what I consider to be a real Masterpiece of how to 225 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:53,000 go through and actually manage all of the software and 226 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,700 configurations and services all throughout the whole ecosystem 227 00:11:56,700 --> 00:11:59,800 and how to do that at scale and how to affordably understand 228 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,100 what was actually going on. And then most importantly how to 229 00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:08,200 go through an instrument up all of the We're in services and 230 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:11,200 everything like that. To really figure out what the 231 00:12:11,208 --> 00:12:14,500 customers experiences were and figure out most importantly, 232 00:12:14,500 --> 00:12:18,000 what matters. So with all of that, we started 233 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:20,700 doing a lot of really amazing things out of that we came up 234 00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:24,700 with zookeeper, we were working on a lot of the Big Data side of 235 00:12:24,700 --> 00:12:27,100 things. We brought in the people who 236 00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:31,000 create it to dupe and built a whole big data side of things 237 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:32,900 around it. And again, all this was really 238 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:35,000 early days and people go, yeah, it might go. 239 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,700 Yeah, yeah. But you know, again, we're 240 00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:41,400 talking Talking about like 2006, 2007, 2008 timeframe. 241 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:45,300 So eventually the politics at Yahoo, got to be a little much. 242 00:12:45,300 --> 00:12:49,700 So I decided with my family, we decided to move to Europe and 243 00:12:49,700 --> 00:12:53,700 Europe was where I realized that all of the concepts and habits 244 00:12:53,700 --> 00:12:57,900 that I picked up before, early in my life, they weren't normal. 245 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,900 They weren't the things that normal people do. 246 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:04,100 And so I spent the next few years carefully examining and 247 00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:08,000 trying to figure out how is it that I actually Solve problems. 248 00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:11,800 How is it that I build effective teams and are there things that 249 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:14,400 I can actually go through and help teach others? 250 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:17,400 Are there things that I can help to actually help others be able 251 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,100 to be successful. And so I ended up working at a 252 00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:24,200 bunch of big companies. I worked at British Telecom, I 253 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,700 worked at a Energy company called rwe and they're all over 254 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,200 the world but they're primarily in Germany. 255 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:34,400 This was also at the time where the Germans had come up with 256 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,900 energy Venda which is we're going to shut down all The 257 00:13:36,900 --> 00:13:39,500 nuclear power plants. Oh my God, how are we going to 258 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:41,500 power everything? So that was an interesting 259 00:13:41,500 --> 00:13:44,000 challenge. I was at Skype and a bunch of 260 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,200 other places as well and the output of a lot of that. 261 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,700 Actually, ultimately came and built the book. 262 00:13:50,000 --> 00:13:55,000 So that's a bit of my journey. Wow, sitting here and listening 263 00:13:55,000 --> 00:13:57,800 you telling the story, right? I'm very amazed with what you 264 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:00,100 have done. You seem to be at the edge, the 265 00:14:00,100 --> 00:14:02,300 first pioneers of so many great technology. 266 00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:06,000 So many great practices and I can tell, as well, you summarize 267 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:08,500 some parts of Books. I'm Des of the books throughout 268 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:11,300 your introduction as well, write things like Target, desired 269 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:14,500 outcome situational awareness, and things like that, which is 270 00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:17,300 the interesting thing that I pick when I read this book is 271 00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,200 that I find it a bit different than some other develops books 272 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,300 that I have read. For example, I've read devops 273 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,700 handbook. Accelerate Phoenix project or 274 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:27,600 those sounds very different definitely, but can you tell us? 275 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,500 Maybe what would be the Silver Lining? 276 00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:33,000 When you write the book, write, what is something that you want 277 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,400 to offer different from the other devops books out there or 278 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,500 there? Ops practitioners that have been 279 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:40,500 established throughout the last few years. 280 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:44,700 So I think that the biggest thing that most people miss and 281 00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:47,300 this is something I've talked with Jean came about, I've 282 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:50,800 actually had great conversations with people like jazz humble and 283 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:55,900 Dave Farley about as well. It's not about the tools, tools 284 00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,800 will come in tools will go. In fact this was something when 285 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,600 I first wrote the book and I gave it an early draft of people 286 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:04,200 they went and in fact one of them was Mary poppendieck she's 287 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,900 like why aren't you talking about containers? 288 00:15:06,300 --> 00:15:09,500 Like Containers is an implementation thing, and I can 289 00:15:09,500 --> 00:15:12,700 tell you my career, it will come, it will go, they'll be 290 00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:16,000 something else. And so if I just focus on the 291 00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:17,700 Technologies, I'm missing the point. 292 00:15:17,700 --> 00:15:21,300 The point is, how can you go through and make better 293 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:23,500 decisions? How is it that you're able to 294 00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:27,800 achieve the actual outcomes? This is something that actually 295 00:15:27,800 --> 00:15:31,600 drives me a bit crazy with a lot of the devops community people 296 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:36,500 focus so much on outputs, they focus on up time, but they don't 297 00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:39,500 actually Really think about what is it that the customers are 298 00:15:39,500 --> 00:15:42,100 trying to do and what's important and I give a story I 299 00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:45,700 was working for the company that did a lot of Commodities 300 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:48,200 trading. And when I came in, they said 301 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,600 well we're trying to produce all of our systems and our services. 302 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,300 We want to have five nines up time. 303 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:56,300 I went oh that's interesting. So tell me more. 304 00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,200 Why is it in 5/9 up time and they went? 305 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:03,000 Well, our service is really important and we can't afford to 306 00:16:03,008 --> 00:16:04,600 be down. If we were down at, then our 307 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,300 Traders can't trade and I said, Okay, so are your Traders 308 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,500 trading in the middle of the night and they went no and so 309 00:16:11,500 --> 00:16:14,000 they trade in on the weekends? No no no. 310 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,800 So when is it that they're trading and find out that when 311 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,500 they're trading and they did have a bit of an extended day 312 00:16:19,500 --> 00:16:24,400 but they're extended day was like 9 a.m. to like 7:00 p.m. 313 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,700 and I went okay so 9:00 a.m. to 7 p.m. you need to be up 100% of 314 00:16:29,708 --> 00:16:31,100 the time. The rest of the time. 315 00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:32,700 The whole thing could be down and the way. 316 00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:36,000 Yep, so it's not about five nines up time. 317 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:39,500 It's About understanding what it is that you're trying to do, 318 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,000 this is something I learned when I was at the investment trading, 319 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,600 we're building the trading systems for us. 320 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:47,500 The crosses were the most important. 321 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,600 It was 9 minutes that we had to have 100% uptime. 322 00:16:50,800 --> 00:16:53,400 The rest of the time, it was 9 minutes since, like six Windows 323 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:55,300 during the day, the rest of the time, the whole thing could be 324 00:16:55,300 --> 00:16:58,900 down, but those times everything needed to be up in need to be 325 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:01,400 performance. It needed to respond, exactly 326 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,000 how it was that I wanted. And I think that's something 327 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,000 that people Miss, they miss, what is it? 328 00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:08,500 If people are trying, Do what is it that they need to try to 329 00:17:08,500 --> 00:17:12,200 solve my experience of watching video is going to be very 330 00:17:12,200 --> 00:17:16,599 different than if I'm actually grabbing a regular text website. 331 00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:20,700 If I lose frames the world comes to an end when I'm actually 332 00:17:20,700 --> 00:17:23,900 watching a video, if I get a re transmitted on the something 333 00:17:23,900 --> 00:17:27,700 that's text, I'm not even gonna notice and you need to be able 334 00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:30,100 to actually understand that understand those things and then 335 00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:32,900 build your echo system to be able to go through a managed all 336 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:35,600 of that stuff. So that's why I'm constantly 337 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:37,400 going through and saying So what is it? 338 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:40,400 What is your purpose? How is it that you actually know 339 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,900 what's going on and how you're meeting your purpose? 340 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,000 What is the data that the information the awareness? 341 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:49,600 Because it's not just what, you know and not just the data that 342 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,800 you have. But what your ability to pull 343 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:55,000 those things together to be able to go through and make effective 344 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,500 decisions. Do I deploy this way or that 345 00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,600 way, do I build it this way or do I do it that way? 346 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,200 Those are things that really come by actually understanding 347 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,000 that true north of what actually Matters, the customer. 348 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,700 That is something that time and time again in the community 349 00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:14,400 people. Miss they miss, what is it that 350 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,300 I'm trying to do. Why am I doing it? 351 00:18:16,300 --> 00:18:19,700 They miss, if I do things in one way, it's going to hide 352 00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:22,700 information. That might be important to me or 353 00:18:22,700 --> 00:18:25,700 it might flood me with so much information that isn't actually 354 00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,500 important at. That makes it very difficult for 355 00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:30,800 me to sit through it to be able to make decisions. 356 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,800 And that is the big thing that I see in the community that I 357 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,700 really really, really Want people to learn and improve. 358 00:18:39,700 --> 00:18:42,100 And again it's not that the tools are bad. 359 00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:45,500 Tools are great but understand what the tools are doing. 360 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:49,400 Understand how it is helping. You understand what it is that 361 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:53,400 it's simplifying and hiding from you and understand if that is 362 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:56,900 actually something that doesn't actually matter or ultimately, 363 00:18:56,900 --> 00:18:58,100 it's going to be important to you. 364 00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:00,500 Thank you for giving the context. 365 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,300 Why you wrote this book and why it differs from others. 366 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,200 So, the subtitle of your book, also, I find very interesting, 367 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:09,600 you mention A practical guide to on-demand Service delivery. 368 00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,400 First of all, what are you referring to On Demand Service 369 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,200 delivery? Is it some specific thing about, 370 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,700 you know, I don't like software consulting or is it likes of 371 00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:19,900 engineering team? Or is this something that is 372 00:19:19,900 --> 00:19:21,500 applicable to all engineering team? 373 00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:24,100 No matter what? And if you can also give us some 374 00:19:24,100 --> 00:19:26,200 highlights. What are some of the problems 375 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,800 that it Service delivery are dealing with in this modern 376 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,800 days? Sure. 377 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:36,500 So the reason I say on demand Service delivery is when I 378 00:19:36,500 --> 00:19:40,400 worked in different types of delivery organizations, I've 379 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:43,600 worked in ones that build shrink-wrap software, and of 380 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:48,500 course I've worked in ones that actually have services and why I 381 00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:53,100 talk about on-demand Service delivery is if you're in a 382 00:19:53,200 --> 00:19:57,300 shrink wrap software world or one where you have low 383 00:19:57,300 --> 00:20:01,900 engagement low cycle loti to your customer, Or you can ignore 384 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:05,800 a lot of things or you can push back on to the customer and 385 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:09,100 their it organization. A lot of the heavy lifting of 386 00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,700 what's going on. But if you're doing on demand 387 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,400 Service delivery, much like your telephone internet connection, 388 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,200 all of that stuff, the quality of the whole end-to-end matters. 389 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:22,800 You need to make sure that you actually understand who your 390 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,500 customers are and what your customers are doing, and that 391 00:20:25,500 --> 00:20:27,700 part is actually really important. 392 00:20:27,700 --> 00:20:30,800 And that goes back into the IT service delivery team. 393 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:34,800 There's this interesting thing and I've seen it far more since 394 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:38,500 I've been outside of the valley and that they're still this 395 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,600 difficulty for a lot of organizations. 396 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,100 And not just the technical organizations, but actually the 397 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:47,200 non technical managerial organizations to really 398 00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:51,700 understand how integral the IT service, delivery, the 399 00:20:51,700 --> 00:20:55,100 technology and the teams that are building, random technology 400 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:58,400 are to understanding and working with the business to actually 401 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,300 achieve what is needed. So a lot of people We'll go. 402 00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:03,900 Okay, well, I'll just go through and give them a bunch of 403 00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:05,400 requirements. I don't need to tell them. 404 00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:08,000 Anything Parts is Parts. In fact, some people go even 405 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,500 further and go. You know what anyone can sling 406 00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:12,500 code? So if I just give requirements, 407 00:21:12,500 --> 00:21:15,800 I can Outsource all that stuff and I can Outsource it to some 408 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:18,300 random other company. That doesn't need to know 409 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:21,900 anything about my company or my industry or any of that and I'll 410 00:21:21,900 --> 00:21:25,100 get something back and I'll be able to use it and then what 411 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:28,600 they quickly realize is. Yeah, okay, that works for some 412 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,300 generic things but it when it's actually Something that's core 413 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:34,300 to your business. It doesn't work. 414 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:37,200 Things start to fall down things, don't behave. 415 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,700 Exactly how you would expect that they would. 416 00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:43,800 And that is a big, big problem, and that gets back into 417 00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,200 something that I talked about quite a bit in the book. 418 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:50,500 I talk about Mission command. So Mission command is very much 419 00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,500 this and this, I got a lot of heat about in the beginning 420 00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:56,300 because there's a lot of the world out there that finds 421 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,500 anything that ever came out of the military to be a bad thing. 422 00:21:59,700 --> 00:22:04,000 Not realizing In that there are a lot of interesting learnings 423 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,300 that come from there that are not militaristic. 424 00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:10,700 Even remotely that are actually incredibly helpful for being 425 00:22:10,700 --> 00:22:14,700 able to help do the right thing. So, Mission command is very much 426 00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:19,200 this mechanism that is about talking about and making sure 427 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,000 that there's a shared understanding of what the actual 428 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,500 objective or ultimately, the target outcomes that you're 429 00:22:24,508 --> 00:22:28,300 trying to achieve art and the entire structure of it is all in 430 00:22:28,300 --> 00:22:32,100 and around. How do you Enable the people 431 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:35,900 that are down in the ground to make the right decisions in 432 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:38,200 order to do things. And why is that important? 433 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,900 That's important? Because the people that are down 434 00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:43,000 on the ground of the ones that are going to have the most 435 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,100 context of exactly what's going on and if they don't actually 436 00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,500 understand what the underlying intent of what you're trying to 437 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:50,900 achieve is they're going to do whatever they're going to do. 438 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,300 In fact, this is actually something that you can see in 439 00:22:53,300 --> 00:22:56,300 Ukraine, right now. So, the West spent quite a bit 440 00:22:56,300 --> 00:23:00,500 of time after 2014 teaching the Ukrainian military about 441 00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:03,300 mission, Command. They originally were in the 442 00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:06,300 command and control style military structure. 443 00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:09,100 Much of like what you're seeing in Russia, the Chinese do the 444 00:23:09,100 --> 00:23:11,500 same thing. So the people at the top, tell 445 00:23:11,500 --> 00:23:14,200 the people at the bottom, what to do the people of the bottom, 446 00:23:14,300 --> 00:23:18,100 do what the people, the top do. And they just act as otamatone 447 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:21,600 its Mission command flips it and says, I'm going to tell you what 448 00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,800 it is, that our goal is and I'm going to tell you what the 449 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,100 constraints are of what you can't do. 450 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,400 You can't go into the village and kill everybody. 451 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:33,700 Or whatever it is man in software, it may be. 452 00:23:33,700 --> 00:23:36,400 Well you have to be really careful that you don't lose data 453 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,800 or some other type of concept like that. 454 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,600 And so what you do is and they call this a briefing, you give 455 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:43,300 them a briefing. If you don't tell them what to 456 00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,600 do, you tell them what the goals are and you tell them what the 457 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,500 ante goals are the, what are the constraints? 458 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:51,700 And then what you do is you say, okay, go off and tell me what 459 00:23:51,700 --> 00:23:54,300 you think you're going to do and so what happens lower down, 460 00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:57,100 people will then go down and they'll talk amongst themselves 461 00:23:57,100 --> 00:23:59,400 and sometimes if they're like middle management they'll go 462 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,500 down and down and down until you get Give the people at the 463 00:24:01,500 --> 00:24:05,300 bottom and they will go in and they will come up with some 464 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,000 ideas and some plans and they'll come up with something that's 465 00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,100 called a back brief. So back brief is, this is how we 466 00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:13,100 think we might do it. And here are some questions that 467 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:14,700 we have. And here's what we think that we 468 00:24:14,700 --> 00:24:18,800 might need this allows them to have the flexibility, to be able 469 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,000 to have the conversation. So back brief is very much a 470 00:24:21,008 --> 00:24:24,300 conversation, they'll present back the people above will go. 471 00:24:24,300 --> 00:24:26,600 Okay, this isn't quite right and they'll tune in, they'll tune 472 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:29,800 until they are given the right resources and everything to go 473 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,700 out in the field. It's not done now, the people 474 00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:36,000 are out in the field. That's when, you know, the crud 475 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:40,000 hits the fan and as they say, no plan lasts into battle. 476 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:43,900 And so, again, the people understand what the ultimate 477 00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:47,200 objective is, they understand where the antique goals were. 478 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,900 The constraints are and they can then go through and do what is 479 00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:53,200 necessary in order to meet the objective. 480 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,100 And I gave, I think I give an example of this, in the book of 481 00:24:56,300 --> 00:24:58,200 say. For instance, somebody is told 482 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,800 that they need to go out and take a hill in order to be able 483 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:04,300 able to understand what's going on with the Enemy did then be 484 00:25:04,300 --> 00:25:08,300 able to go in and stop the enemy from being able to advance. 485 00:25:08,300 --> 00:25:12,400 So the outcome is stop the enemy from being able to advance and 486 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:14,800 the team is going through, and they're going towards the hill. 487 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,400 And they notice that they get behind the Enemy Lines and they 488 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,100 see where they can go through and take out a command and 489 00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:23,700 control center. So they could continue up the 490 00:25:23,700 --> 00:25:26,500 hill, but if they take out the command and control center, 491 00:25:26,500 --> 00:25:29,500 well, that meets the objective even better than taking the 492 00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:32,200 hill, doesn't it? And They're given the freedom to 493 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:33,700 be able to go through and do that. 494 00:25:33,900 --> 00:25:37,400 And that is something again that I think is really important with 495 00:25:37,500 --> 00:25:41,500 on-demand Service delivery. We hire smart people and we need 496 00:25:41,500 --> 00:25:45,100 to give them an understanding of what the goals are, and give 497 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:47,600 them what the constraints are that they need to work with and 498 00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,800 then allow them to use their brains to be able to go through 499 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,700 and make the right decisions and that's something that time and 500 00:25:54,700 --> 00:25:56,900 time again. I see Technical and 501 00:25:56,900 --> 00:26:01,300 non-technical people like completely missing and and when 502 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,800 they actually see what's possible, when you actually get 503 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,400 people to use their brains they're just like oh I didn't 504 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,000 realize that. And every like this light bulb 505 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:13,700 goes off in their heads and they're like, oh wow, they're 506 00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:15,800 actually Partners. They actually care about the 507 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,100 business. They don't just care about 508 00:26:17,100 --> 00:26:20,100 playing around with technology and it's like, no actually they 509 00:26:20,100 --> 00:26:23,300 genuinely care. And that's you know, people want 510 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:25,900 to be proud of what it is that they do and not just the 511 00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:27,900 technical Parts. They want to be proud of what is 512 00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:30,600 it that their contribution ultimately is able to go 513 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:31,500 through. Achieve. 514 00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:34,800 And so that's something I think, is really, really important. 515 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:37,600 Thanks for explaining this concept of mission command. 516 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,700 When I read the chapter so I find it quite fascinating, 517 00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:42,300 right? This concept borrowed from 518 00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:45,700 military and that X also explains a lot of why like I 519 00:26:45,708 --> 00:26:47,200 interviewed some product people as well. 520 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,400 They always talk about explain the outcome, not the output try 521 00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,000 to get engineering being involved in, making the 522 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,200 decisions how things should get done. 523 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,500 Not just coming from the top and I think you also borrow a lot of 524 00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:01,700 other military concept. One is the the great work by 525 00:27:01,700 --> 00:27:04,700 john-boy's the ooda loop, which is sometimes also quoted in the 526 00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:08,400 agile methodology books, right? Maybe if you can give us also a 527 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,500 glimpse like what is this Outer Loop? 528 00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,900 And how do you use it to apply in the Lynn devops concept? 529 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,300 Sure, it'll work is probably also one of the most along with 530 00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:21,800 lean is probably some of the most misunderstood things out 531 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,500 there, who do Loop is all about decision making and how to go 532 00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:29,200 through and make more effective, more timely decisions. 533 00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:34,000 So, a lot of this Came out of Boyd is an interesting 534 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,700 character. See, he wanted to figure out how 535 00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,700 you could go through and out to the enemy. 536 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,600 So first he did what all us? Technologists do, he went 537 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,900 clearly having the best technology that's going to get 538 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:49,400 you there. So he came up with this thing 539 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:51,700 called Energy maneuverability Theory. 540 00:27:51,900 --> 00:27:55,700 And so this is a Formula that allows you to be able to go 541 00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:58,500 through and determine with any aircraft. 542 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,200 What is the maneuverability of the Aircraft, you can compare 543 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,900 different aircraft in the values of different aircraft, you can 544 00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:07,800 ultimately decide which one is better and which one will 545 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,300 ultimately succeed. So he stole a bunch of Mainframe 546 00:28:12,300 --> 00:28:16,200 computer time and ran all these calculations and everything and 547 00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,100 came up with this amazing Theory, that's still used today 548 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,800 in Aerospace. Then what he did was, he 549 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,100 happened to be a fighter pilot during the Korean War and so the 550 00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:29,600 North Koreans were using the make 15s and the US was using 551 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:33,200 f-86s. So the US had a kill ratio that 552 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,900 was just astronomical just knocking out. 553 00:28:35,900 --> 00:28:39,300 Lots and lots of the enemy planes say went clearly. 554 00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:42,500 This is going to be an example where the f-86 going to be a 555 00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:44,900 better plane. Then the mig-15 then he ran the 556 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,200 numbers, Danny ran them again, many ran them again, every 557 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,100 single time, the mig-15 came up as a better plane. 558 00:28:51,300 --> 00:28:53,000 Hey, what? Huh, that's interesting. 559 00:28:53,300 --> 00:28:55,600 And so we ran it against a bunch of other aircraft. 560 00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,600 And found that there actually was no relation between the two 561 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:01,500 for when it came into combat. So then, He went to try to 562 00:29:01,500 --> 00:29:06,500 figure out, well, what was it? So ultimately what he found out 563 00:29:06,500 --> 00:29:10,600 was the first thing that was important was that you needed to 564 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,300 actually understand what is the outcome that it was that you 565 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,900 needed to do. He also understood that, any 566 00:29:15,900 --> 00:29:19,300 actually spent a lot of time studying ancient military, 567 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:22,200 people spent a lot of time working with people who have 568 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,900 been in the environment that have been really massively 569 00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:29,400 successful during World War Two. And what he realized was it was 570 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,800 all about. How quickly you can make 571 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,300 decisions. And if you can make decisions 572 00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:38,500 more effectively than the enemy and more effectively means both 573 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,900 quicker and better. Then you're going to win. 574 00:29:42,100 --> 00:29:44,700 And the best way to do that is first understanding, what is it 575 00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:45,900 that you're trying to actually do? 576 00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:49,400 What is the outcome then be able to go through and he has this 577 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,800 observe an Orient which is the first two o's how do you go 578 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,800 through and pull that information together? 579 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,900 How do you go through and build context? 580 00:29:56,900 --> 00:30:00,200 So that you can then hit that D, decide and act. 581 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,600 And if you you get within the enemy's decision Loop, meaning 582 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,200 that you're able to make decisions faster and act on 583 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:09,400 those decisions faster than the enemy can actually figure out 584 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,900 how to observe an Orient. You can now maneuver the enemy 585 00:30:12,900 --> 00:30:16,300 all day long. So that's where Buddha came in 586 00:30:16,300 --> 00:30:22,100 place and so Boyd interestingly enough wasn't the air force that 587 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:23,800 ended up taking his knowledge though. 588 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,600 He did come up with in this was part of his journey as well. 589 00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,500 He thought okay well if you can come up with practices and you 590 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:33,400 have Our practices then the enemy then you'll do better. 591 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:37,900 And so he came up with the book, these seminal book that every 592 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:42,300 military uses on all of dog fighting tactics and he found 593 00:30:42,300 --> 00:30:45,800 out that didn't work either that that is not about practices. 594 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,600 It's not about methodologies, they're not going to get you 595 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,700 there but he figured out that okay. 596 00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:53,400 Well if you have all this information and you're actually 597 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,800 able to make the right decisions, you'll get there. 598 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,300 So in their Force, they didn't take much of it on. 599 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:00,500 They totally took is an Theory stuff. 600 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:02,200 They Totally took his dog fighting stuff. 601 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:06,900 They thought he was a nut, but the US Marine Corps and more 602 00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:10,800 importantly, the special forces units, both the US and the UK 603 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:16,200 very much liked the way that he thought and actually at Quantico 604 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,900 the Marine Corps actually built a library around. 605 00:31:18,900 --> 00:31:22,400 A lot of is teachings. He spent a lot of time training, 606 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:27,100 a lot of Marine Corps leadership of how to go through and make 607 00:31:27,100 --> 00:31:30,400 more effective decisions. How to go through and pretty 608 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,300 much took Turbocharged, the whole mission command side, of 609 00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:37,000 things, to be able to go through and help decide the enemy. 610 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:40,500 So, that was the reason that I put it in my book was, if you 611 00:31:40,500 --> 00:31:44,000 can actually understand how the decision making process works. 612 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,100 And even more importantly, you actually can understand what can 613 00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:50,500 get in the way of making decisions. 614 00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:53,200 And this is everything from biases. 615 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,600 So we all bring our own biases to work, whether it is our 616 00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,600 favorite Technologies languages or ideas. 617 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:04,400 About how things work or not work or like information flow. 618 00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:06,100 Am I getting the right information? 619 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:07,700 The right time? Am I getting in the right 620 00:32:07,700 --> 00:32:09,300 context? Or am I getting too much 621 00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:11,200 information in the wrong context? 622 00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:16,200 And then poor framing of the problem and the context of the 623 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,100 information to be able to decide to how to go through and solve 624 00:32:19,100 --> 00:32:22,000 that problem who's constantly get in the way of people, being 625 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:24,400 able to make effective decisions, if you can understand 626 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,000 those things and you can understand where they're coming 627 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,500 from, you're not going to be able to stop them all, but it's 628 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:33,300 going to be able to allow You to set the right trip wires and 629 00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:36,900 filters to be able to go through and at least catch when those 630 00:32:36,900 --> 00:32:40,200 things happen and then be able to learn and failed to figure 631 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,200 out how to improve and overcome those. 632 00:32:42,900 --> 00:32:45,200 When I read this chapter is part of ooda loop, right? 633 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,200 Is quite fascinating, I would say thinking of the observe 634 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,300 Orient decide Act and the associated things that are 635 00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:53,900 involved to do all those things, which you summarize there in a 636 00:32:53,908 --> 00:32:56,600 couple of key points, which becomes chapter as well in the 637 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,400 later chapters. Right things like of course. 638 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,600 Do you mention it? Probably around 10. 639 00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:03,000 X rated by not knowing the target outcome. 640 00:33:03,100 --> 00:33:05,800 And then the second is building situational awareness about your 641 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,700 situation, the contacts, and also a friction, right? 642 00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:11,100 You mention about what other things that stand in the way. 643 00:33:11,300 --> 00:33:14,000 And the last part is about learning, right, how the team is 644 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,100 able to learn and learn from the mistakes. 645 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:19,000 So, I want to go to the second part building situational 646 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,100 awareness because sometimes in ID Service delivery and 647 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:23,800 engineering team, we are always busy. 648 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:26,100 No matter what, right? We got requirements, we got 649 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,300 issues incidents on called duties and things like that. 650 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,600 And even, we have so many Disruptions along the way and 651 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,400 also new technologies coming. We are basically constantly 652 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:38,200 interrupted and distracted. So, how can we build better 653 00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,900 situational awareness? Maybe you can give some advice 654 00:33:40,900 --> 00:33:42,500 here? Sure. 655 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,600 So actually, I talked about this in some of the Practical 656 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,400 sections of the book. So my book is kind of split up 657 00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,100 into there's a introduction part and then there's Theory chapters 658 00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:56,900 and there's actus chapters. And so what I talk about is a 659 00:33:56,908 --> 00:34:00,500 term that it's actually the title of one of the lien book. 660 00:34:00,700 --> 00:34:04,100 It's learning to see. So there's a lot of things that 661 00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:07,700 are floating around in all of our organizations, how can you 662 00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:12,199 go through and organize the information and filter, the 663 00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:15,600 information such that you're able to learn to see. 664 00:34:16,100 --> 00:34:19,199 And so I come up with a bunch of different mechanisms and they 665 00:34:19,199 --> 00:34:24,000 aren't those like solid Thou shalt thou must do sorts of 666 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,199 things. These are much more patterns 667 00:34:26,199 --> 00:34:30,000 that I've noticed that tend to work, so what I try to go 668 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,800 through and do Is I try to go in and look at how to go and 669 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,400 organize a lot of the work that's coming it. 670 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:40,800 And so I talked a lot about workflow boards and so these are 671 00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:44,900 more or less like kanban boards, but I don't get super caught up 672 00:34:44,900 --> 00:34:47,900 on all of the con, Bonnie sorts of things. 673 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,600 I've actually talked quite a bit with David Anderson and some of 674 00:34:50,607 --> 00:34:52,500 the common Bond hooks about this. 675 00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:56,300 And it's not that they're not important, it's that you need to 676 00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:59,500 actually understand what's important in your context, which 677 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:03,300 is to actually We understand what's going on in your echo 678 00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:06,700 system, so I try to go through and make sure that all work goes 679 00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:10,600 through there. Including even the most simple 680 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,700 dumbest things. Like I'll give one that. 681 00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:16,600 Hopefully, most of us don't have to deal with these days ass 682 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:21,300 word, resets and printer, things or stuff like that being able to 683 00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:25,400 understand those and being able to actually capture those. 684 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,600 Even if it is no more than a tally board. 685 00:35:27,700 --> 00:35:30,600 Actually allows you to understand what is the size of 686 00:35:30,700 --> 00:35:35,100 Prize by actually fixing that problem, either by putting in 687 00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:39,100 some form of automation or doing something that makes it go away. 688 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:44,600 And what I do is I tend to have the top of the workflow board, I 689 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,500 have the concept of a I've used very terms for this. 690 00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:50,700 The one I used in the book is called a cue Master. 691 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,600 We've called them Ops monkeys, we've called them all sorts of 692 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:55,300 things. And in essence, this is the 693 00:35:55,300 --> 00:35:59,100 person that is there to watch what's going on in the board. 694 00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,600 They'll often be the one. That is Fielding things that are 695 00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:06,500 coming in randomly and they're the ones that will go through 696 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:09,300 and work with the team to go through and make sure that that 697 00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:12,800 work that gets stuck. They can get unstuck, they'll 698 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,300 help go and fix this. Oh, is it being the combination 699 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:20,400 of like in scrum? Kind of like a scrum Master par 700 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,500 product owner part. Like, how am I going to go 701 00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:25,400 through and help the team succeed? 702 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,100 But the other thing that this person does is they're allowed 703 00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:31,700 to go through and take a step back and look at What is going 704 00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:35,400 on and the big picture? And every place that I've 705 00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,000 implemented a cue master, I almost always start with the 706 00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:43,100 first person on the team, that feels the strongest against 707 00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,600 actually doing this. And I go, okay, congratulations. 708 00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:50,600 You're going to be Q master, and every single time, every, every 709 00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:54,600 every single time that I've done that by day, three at the 710 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,600 absolute latest. And often before that, they come 711 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,400 to me and they go, oh my God, I get it. 712 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,200 Why is it that they get it because they can see what's 713 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,300 going on. They can see the man and all it 714 00:37:06,300 --> 00:37:08,300 is. This is about helping the team, 715 00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:12,200 be able to see what's going on. And I have some again pattern 716 00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:15,300 processes and therefore being able to go through and get the 717 00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:17,900 team to be able to understand what's going on, to be able to 718 00:37:17,900 --> 00:37:21,500 go through and get debrief, to be able to allow the teams to 719 00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:23,800 learn and improve from what's going on. 720 00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:28,700 I also have other patterns for whether you are doing, whereas 721 00:37:28,700 --> 00:37:33,700 all of the operational side of Is within a Dev team or if it is 722 00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,200 you have separate operations and Dev teams. 723 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:40,000 And I have the concept of what I call a service engineering lead. 724 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,100 And this is kind of similar to the SRE side of things. 725 00:37:43,300 --> 00:37:46,600 You don't always have to have it, but it is kind of that 726 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,800 expert to be able to allow you to go through and make sure that 727 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:52,900 if you need help or you're missing something that they can 728 00:37:52,900 --> 00:37:56,500 go in and actually help you go through improve and get better. 729 00:37:56,700 --> 00:38:00,000 They're not a placement, they're not the one that's going to say 730 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,500 whether or not not you can go live or any of that stuff, but 731 00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:04,900 they're there to be able to go through and help make sure that 732 00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:07,600 everything's coming together. They make sure that if you're 733 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,600 working in an echo system where you have lots of other teams 734 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,100 that are doing things, they will work to help to make sure that 735 00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:16,700 you have connections with those other teams. 736 00:38:16,700 --> 00:38:19,400 And again I've noticed this, I've gone in a lot of companies 737 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:22,500 lately. They use a Spotify model and 738 00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,800 they'll set up tribes and squaws and chapters. 739 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,400 And what I've noticed is things will work quite well within a 740 00:38:29,408 --> 00:38:33,400 tribe and This will tend to be aligned to a product line, but 741 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,500 the problem is customers. Don't tend to use a product 742 00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:40,000 line, customers go across products and the problem that 743 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:42,800 you have is is when a customer is cutting across products. 744 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:44,500 Like, for instance, I'll do things in Banks. 745 00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:47,900 And one of the things that cuts across all products is know your 746 00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:50,400 customer. So this is what are all the 747 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,600 things to be able to make sure that the customers who they say 748 00:38:53,600 --> 00:38:56,400 they are, and they're not doing some sort of illegal things, 749 00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,600 those always break down in companies that have silos. 750 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:06,200 Those silos of whether they're agile, silos Spotify, silos, 751 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,900 waterfall, silos, whatever. And what I've noticed in those 752 00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:14,300 is I often create a highly effective team often looks like 753 00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:18,000 a squad but really it's a kind of a cut on the service 754 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,100 engineering lead model where they cut across the various 755 00:39:21,100 --> 00:39:24,600 different squads to go through and help Stitch things together 756 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,800 to be able to help people be able to learn to C, be able to 757 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:31,500 help them be able to make better decisions and Able to understand 758 00:39:31,500 --> 00:39:34,500 what the actual outcomes are and be able to deliver those. 759 00:39:34,900 --> 00:39:38,200 So that answer some of that, I know that is kind of skip 760 00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,800 through a bunch of things and I didn't talk through the friction 761 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,400 stuff, but I can as well, because that's also important. 762 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:47,000 Sure, I'm quite interested when you sharing this story about 763 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:51,000 implementing Kumasi and you turn a skeptic into a promoter within 764 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,400 just a few days, right? So for people here, who are 765 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,300 intrigued as well? Maybe can you tell us a little 766 00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:58,800 bit of summary or just especially I find that many 767 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,300 Enterprise, you know, big Rise or even the startups these days, 768 00:40:02,300 --> 00:40:05,000 right there are just so many things to do, the company has so 769 00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,000 many initiatives, so many parallel tracks and especially 770 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:10,500 at the bottom, the engineering team, you know, like the tribe 771 00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:13,700 or the squad that you mentioned. People just are not aware of 772 00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:16,100 what are the things that are probably happening in the 773 00:40:16,100 --> 00:40:17,500 company. Second thing is about 774 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,600 dependencies, how we align different teams, across each 775 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,300 other, right? So maybe if you can, align 776 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:25,400 little bit about this concept of workflow board and Q Master on 777 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,700 how a company can help to see be able to see what is happening in 778 00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:31,800 the organization. So that They can improve from 779 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,500 then on. Yeah. 780 00:40:33,500 --> 00:40:37,500 So I talked quite a bit about both in the book as well as in 781 00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:40,600 general, I talk about how you can go through, instrument up 782 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,400 your echo system and in the book, I also talked about I'm a 783 00:40:44,408 --> 00:40:48,900 big fan of can even as far as being able to go through and 784 00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:53,000 understand what sort of domain you happen to be operating and 785 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,800 because that defines the way that you can make decisions. 786 00:40:57,900 --> 00:41:00,400 And so for people that don't know, can have in a talks a lot 787 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,700 about About complexity Theory. So you can have an obvious type 788 00:41:03,700 --> 00:41:07,000 of environment, where everything can be pretty much plotted out 789 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:12,100 ahead of time all the way too complex, and even chaos. 790 00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:16,300 And you have to take different approaches in those worlds 791 00:41:16,300 --> 00:41:19,800 because what, you know, or don't know, and what I try to go 792 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,800 through and do is I try to go in and I try to build the 793 00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,900 instrumentation mechanism, so workflow board and Q Masters and 794 00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:31,400 those sorts of things. I'll also instrument Things such 795 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:35,500 as I really like to try to go through and get a lot of things 796 00:41:35,500 --> 00:41:38,800 in around code metrics. Do I have a really complex, 797 00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,100 branching strategy, what's going on? 798 00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:44,500 As far as coach earn, do I have lots of people touching the same 799 00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:47,700 code? Those get me little ideas of 800 00:41:47,700 --> 00:41:50,400 things that are going on and it's the same with being able to 801 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,700 build observability and instrumentation within the 802 00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:56,700 production environment. They'll give you some hints at 803 00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:58,500 things. And then what I try to do is I 804 00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:03,100 try to then rebuild? And reduce noise and build a 805 00:42:03,107 --> 00:42:06,700 common understanding of what's going on within the teams. 806 00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,700 So this gets into something that again, I talked about in the 807 00:42:10,700 --> 00:42:13,900 book then something that Boyd found out which is something 808 00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:18,300 called einheit. So einheit is togetherness, this 809 00:42:18,300 --> 00:42:20,800 is being one team. This is knowing your team 810 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:24,300 members. This is knowing like good bad, 811 00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:26,900 ugly building real relationships with them. 812 00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:32,400 And what Boyd found out was that when The team themselves and the 813 00:42:32,408 --> 00:42:35,500 people that are the leaders or managers of the team, actually 814 00:42:35,500 --> 00:42:38,500 get to know the team, and they get to know each other. 815 00:42:38,700 --> 00:42:41,600 You can, then understand how people are going to approach. 816 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,800 A problem, you'll understand where their strengths and 817 00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,500 weaknesses are and you can go through and help them and you 818 00:42:46,500 --> 00:42:49,200 can help them in ways where you're not getting in the way 819 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,800 and you can do it in a way where you don't have to actually say 820 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:56,800 lots of fat boy talks about this, it was like a German I 821 00:42:56,808 --> 00:43:00,500 know of is a colonel or whatever and a lieutenant and they made A 822 00:43:00,508 --> 00:43:03,500 couple of small talk and suddenly there were both like 823 00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:07,300 able to go off to the races and be able to stay totally aligned 824 00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:11,000 if you're actually able to build that and you're able to build 825 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:13,900 that level of trust within the organization. 826 00:43:13,900 --> 00:43:17,900 Then that allows for when people make mistakes, they're not going 827 00:43:17,900 --> 00:43:19,600 to hide them. They'll be able to go through 828 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:21,300 and surface them. Will be able to work together 829 00:43:21,300 --> 00:43:24,000 with others to go. Hey I made this mistake. 830 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,900 Is there a way that we can make it more difficult to do this 831 00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:29,900 mistake in the future and understand what the root cause 832 00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:32,300 of that? Is, are there ways to be able to 833 00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:36,900 go through and understand? Like, why is it that work? 834 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:40,200 Is taking too long and this gets into the friction side of 835 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,100 things. So to me, friction or all those, 836 00:43:43,100 --> 00:43:45,700 various different things that get in the way of you being able 837 00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,400 to not only make effective decisions, but be able to act 838 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,600 effectively. So, what I notice is, lots of 839 00:43:50,607 --> 00:43:53,500 people focus on throughput and output measures. 840 00:43:53,500 --> 00:43:56,100 How many features can I have? How quickly can I turn things 841 00:43:56,100 --> 00:43:58,700 around? Those aren't super valuable. 842 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,800 What's more valuable is Is being able to go through and 843 00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:04,300 understand what are the root causes that are happening 844 00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:06,100 underneath. Do you have people that are task 845 00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:08,900 switching all the time? Task, switching is really bad 846 00:44:08,900 --> 00:44:11,800 because task-switching means that you'll get in your head, 847 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,000 especially if you're a programmer and any of 848 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:15,500 programmers out there will understand this. 849 00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:18,000 I'm working on something and something else comes, you have 850 00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:20,500 to set it down and then you work on that. 851 00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:22,600 Other thing, when you come back and you're like, oh God, what 852 00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:24,500 was I thinking? Okay, and then it takes you a 853 00:44:24,508 --> 00:44:27,200 while to get back into it. And you may never ever get there 854 00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:31,200 or having partially done work, which is another One mean you 855 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,800 have that same sort of a problem, another one that I 856 00:44:33,808 --> 00:44:37,900 notice in this gets back into, I was talking about earlier with 857 00:44:37,900 --> 00:44:41,200 silos, is you'll get over specialization. 858 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:44,200 So one of the things that a lot of companies have done got who 859 00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:46,900 did this to me. In fact is a lot of companies 860 00:44:46,900 --> 00:44:50,100 will have things like dbas and those sorts of people are 861 00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:54,400 network engineers and they go, I do this one thing, I'm an expert 862 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:56,600 at Oracle databases and God help you. 863 00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,300 I'm not going to do anything else and you go to them and 864 00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:03,100 they're like, you know, If the Oracle says no, and what I do is 865 00:45:03,100 --> 00:45:05,500 I Yahoo they gave me all Oracle dbas. 866 00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:09,200 And the reason for that was I decided to break down the 867 00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:11,900 specialization. It wasn't that those guys didn't 868 00:45:11,900 --> 00:45:17,300 continue to do database work in one example, but they needed to 869 00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:20,600 be part of delivering the overall outcomes. 870 00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:23,800 They were there to work with the teams and try to figure out how 871 00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:28,300 to help enable the teams to do. A lot of the things that they 872 00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:30,300 weren't interested in doing half the time. 873 00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:33,900 Building an index or something like that and it allowed the 874 00:45:33,900 --> 00:45:37,000 team to be able to be faster allowed the team to understand a 875 00:45:37,008 --> 00:45:38,800 bit more of what chaos and Mayhem. 876 00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:41,300 They were happen to be doing two relational database. 877 00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:44,000 So that they wouldn't do that, they would encode it that way 878 00:45:44,300 --> 00:45:48,400 and it allowed the dbas to do. What I told them that they 879 00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:52,100 should all timidly become D bees, database Engineers. 880 00:45:52,300 --> 00:45:55,100 So that there were really focused on how can they deliver 881 00:45:55,300 --> 00:45:58,300 an engineer solutions that are able to go through and get 882 00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:00,100 there? And I noticed that all of these 883 00:46:00,100 --> 00:46:03,200 things, Things seem to work. I go through and I use value 884 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,500 streams quite a bit to go in and try to understand where things 885 00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:09,000 are getting caught up. It give an example at one 886 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,300 company I was at the delivery, teams are delivering to slowly, 887 00:46:12,300 --> 00:46:16,400 it takes about between 14 and 18 months for something to get out 888 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,100 there. The delivery teams need to get 889 00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:19,500 better. So I did a value stream. 890 00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:23,700 And what I found out was that the delivery the vast majority 891 00:46:23,700 --> 00:46:27,300 of the time was actually spent with the non-technical people 892 00:46:27,300 --> 00:46:30,300 arguing and getting approvals and all that kind of stuff. 893 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,800 Their delivery teams. They took no more than five 894 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,400 weeks to deliver something once they actually got it. 895 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,500 And so I said, okay, I can improve that I can get it down 896 00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:42,400 to probably for maybe three weeks, but that's not going to 897 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:47,200 save you the 14 to 18 months. So being able to get people to 898 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,700 actually see and understand what's going on and it's the 899 00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:53,200 same with an engineering team. If your bills are taking too 900 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,000 long, try to understand, why see if there are ways to be able to 901 00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,300 go through and reduce that go through and check your code in 902 00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:02,700 early and often because again, if you're not getting that 903 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:07,400 feedback or you're holding on to something for too long, then 904 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,800 you'll lose contacts, it'll make it more difficult to merge. 905 00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,100 If there's a problem with the build you'll be sitting there 906 00:47:13,100 --> 00:47:15,400 scratching your head. Trying to go what the hell, 907 00:47:15,500 --> 00:47:18,700 what's going on. So those are all things again to 908 00:47:18,700 --> 00:47:20,600 be able to go through and improve and get people to 909 00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,200 understand what's going on. And I also then teach 910 00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,300 non-technical people as well, how to go through and understand 911 00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:28,300 this information. So they don't need to be 912 00:47:28,300 --> 00:47:32,500 technical but I'll go through and say, Do you understand that? 913 00:47:32,500 --> 00:47:35,500 There's a lot of technical debt and these places. 914 00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:37,800 You can see that there's a lot of code, sure, and that's 915 00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,400 happening in these places. The teams need help or here's a 916 00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:44,700 places where you have a lot of defects if you go through and 917 00:47:44,700 --> 00:47:48,400 focus on giving the team's time to be able to go through and 918 00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:51,700 deal with those, that will be able to help not only reach your 919 00:47:51,700 --> 00:47:54,200 outcomes but we'll be able to make things be less difficult 920 00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,900 for the teams. I also go through and do the 921 00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:59,800 other thing of instrument up all of your features and everything 922 00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:01,800 that are out there. There are there ones that 923 00:48:01,800 --> 00:48:06,200 nobody's actually ever using and if they're not using them, maybe 924 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:09,200 you should kill them off, which is something that is like 925 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,900 telling a product person. You go kill their babies. 926 00:48:11,900 --> 00:48:15,700 But again, it creates waste, it's something that has to get 927 00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:17,700 maintained. It's something that you're 928 00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:22,600 going, rev, an operating system or version of Java, or whatever 929 00:48:22,700 --> 00:48:24,900 that you have to go through and spend time to go through and 930 00:48:24,900 --> 00:48:27,100 maintain and people don't understand that. 931 00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,700 They think that it's a one-and-done, sort of a thing 932 00:48:29,700 --> 00:48:32,400 they don't. And that with technology is a 933 00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,100 constant Evolution, that's a constant change, everything has 934 00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:39,900 a cost associated with it, so get it so that they understand 935 00:48:39,900 --> 00:48:43,200 that and that they can tune that side of things effectively. 936 00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:46,800 So that's a lot of the way that I try to go about doing a lot of 937 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:49,100 those things. Well, thanks for highlighting. 938 00:48:49,100 --> 00:48:51,500 All these different things. It's quite fascinating. 939 00:48:51,500 --> 00:48:54,200 I highly recommend people to read this book part of the 940 00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,300 summary that I learned from reading this book is that the 941 00:48:56,300 --> 00:48:58,900 first thing is that you need to enable the team right? 942 00:48:58,900 --> 00:49:01,600 The whole team to make Quicker decision making. 943 00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,000 I think that is the crucial thing about all this, maybe 944 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:06,000 Linda walks or devops in general as well. 945 00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:08,900 And one of the key first thing is to understand the target 946 00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:10,800 outcome. So you mentioned about Mission 947 00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,400 command and the setting, the goals, and the constraints, and 948 00:49:13,400 --> 00:49:15,900 let people figure out how to do the solution. 949 00:49:16,100 --> 00:49:18,400 And over the time you also need to build situational awareness, 950 00:49:18,400 --> 00:49:21,300 understand the friction where things go wrong within the team, 951 00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:23,500 being able to see what is happening. 952 00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:26,400 Because many times, I think we are just busy, but we are not 953 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,300 able to see what are the things that are producing the friction 954 00:49:29,300 --> 00:49:30,900 that we are facing. Today. 955 00:49:30,900 --> 00:49:33,400 And the last part is, I think building the learning culture, 956 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:34,800 right? And also you touch on about 957 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:37,900 togetherness, where people know, each other personally and also 958 00:49:37,900 --> 00:49:40,800 build the trust so that we can build a better, highly 959 00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,100 performing team. So thank you so much for all. 960 00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:45,700 But for all this great explanation, great insights. 961 00:49:45,700 --> 00:49:49,000 Again, I highly recommend people to read the book as we reach the 962 00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:51,800 end of our conversation. I have one last question that I 963 00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:53,600 would like to ask you this question. 964 00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,200 I call the three technical leadership. 965 00:49:55,200 --> 00:49:58,300 Wisdom, you can think of it just like an advice that you want to 966 00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:00,200 give people here to learn from you. 967 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:03,200 You about your experience or from your knowledge, throughout 968 00:50:03,200 --> 00:50:08,900 your career so far, sure. So I would say the first one and 969 00:50:08,900 --> 00:50:12,200 you probably heard me pound on about this all throughout it and 970 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,700 this is something that's important for everybody. 971 00:50:14,900 --> 00:50:18,000 The no matter if you're the most Junior person in the team or 972 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:21,700 you're the CEO, and that is have a purpose. 973 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:25,800 Understand what are the Target outcomes that are trained to 974 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,100 achieve? Why are they important? 975 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,300 How do you contribute to Being able to be achieved and most 976 00:50:32,300 --> 00:50:35,200 importantly, how do you measure whether or not you're on the 977 00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:40,400 right track to progressing them and outcomes aren't outputs, 978 00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,800 they're not feature or defect counts, they're not lines of 979 00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:45,500 code. And in fact, this drives me 980 00:50:45,500 --> 00:50:49,400 completely up below with things like okay ours, A lot of people 981 00:50:49,500 --> 00:50:53,900 think that o stands for output and the key results are measures 982 00:50:53,900 --> 00:50:56,900 of those outputs. No, it's all about 983 00:50:56,900 --> 00:50:58,900 understanding. What are the things that matter 984 00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:01,400 to people who drive? Are you from what you're trying 985 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,500 to deliver? So that's number one, and if you 986 00:51:04,500 --> 00:51:08,000 don't know what it is, try to find out because that's what's 987 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:12,700 going to differentiate you from some J, random guy who knows 988 00:51:12,700 --> 00:51:15,000 JavaScript, or whatever, that's out there. 989 00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,800 And they'll go, oh my God, this person is able to go through and 990 00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:19,800 Achieve things and make it happen. 991 00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:22,700 If you're a leader, how do you go through and communicate that 992 00:51:22,700 --> 00:51:25,600 stuff to your team's that's going to be important and it's 993 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,300 don't telling them what to do or how to do it. 994 00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,900 Tell them what it is. You're trying to achieve So the 995 00:51:30,900 --> 00:51:33,700 second one is ensure effective decision-making. 996 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:37,200 So boys. Oh, de loop is all about how do 997 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:38,800 you go through and pull information and knowledge 998 00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,000 together to shape the right context to make quick and 999 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,700 effective decisions. It's not about guessing. 1000 00:51:45,100 --> 00:51:49,100 It's about being able to go through and consider decisions 1001 00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:53,000 critically thinking through how things can go wrong and what 1002 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,100 might happen when they go wrong this helps you be able to go 1003 00:51:56,100 --> 00:51:59,400 through and test the quality of your situational awareness. 1004 00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,300 It helps you filter. ER out assumptions and biases 1005 00:52:02,300 --> 00:52:06,200 and mitigate any unnecessary and controlled risk. 1006 00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,800 So, for leaders, one of the things that I find fascinating 1007 00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,000 is their most leaders don't realize that they're often too 1008 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:15,400 far away. From what is happening to be 1009 00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:18,500 able to make the best decisions at the time that's needed. 1010 00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:20,400 Even if they have the information, they're not going 1011 00:52:20,400 --> 00:52:23,000 to be able to turn it around and be able to make it happen the 1012 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,000 right way. And often times, they may think 1013 00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:27,000 they have the right information but they don't. 1014 00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:29,800 And this were Mission command comes in, are more people with 1015 00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,000 purpose. Help them, get the information, 1016 00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:36,000 give them the safety to be able to make the decisions that their 1017 00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:39,600 best place to make. And that way what decisions you 1018 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,800 need to make our at the right level where you have the time 1019 00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:46,500 necessary to be effective and then if you're an individual 1020 00:52:46,500 --> 00:52:50,400 contributor, you also need to be able to be equipped to make 1021 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:53,100 decisions. You need to be able to realize 1022 00:52:53,100 --> 00:52:55,700 what you know and you let you don't know where the gaps are in 1023 00:52:55,700 --> 00:52:57,700 your awareness. And gaps are. 1024 00:52:57,700 --> 00:53:01,800 Okay, this is where I night is. Oughtn't and understanding your 1025 00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:04,800 team is where information flow and Mission command come in. 1026 00:53:04,800 --> 00:53:08,500 You need to be able to feel safe to make mistakes and to be able 1027 00:53:08,500 --> 00:53:10,900 to learn from them. And learning is how we all get 1028 00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:13,900 better. And so this is where manners 1029 00:53:13,900 --> 00:53:16,200 isn't teams need to work together to make sure that 1030 00:53:16,200 --> 00:53:20,600 nobody is put into a situation where they must make a highly 1031 00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:24,700 risky decision with no support. And then the third one, which I 1032 00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:27,800 touched on a bit. And the first two is, you really 1033 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,500 need to respect people. So people, Our most valuable 1034 00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:33,700 resource. You have to involve them in the 1035 00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:35,300 decisions. You have to make sure that they 1036 00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:37,900 feel safe and part of the decision, they need to 1037 00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:40,700 understand the purpose. You need to make sure that you 1038 00:53:40,700 --> 00:53:43,300 have an environment. That feels like it's a 1039 00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:46,400 supportive team where people feel committed to helping each 1040 00:53:46,400 --> 00:53:48,300 other pursue, the target outcomes. 1041 00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:52,200 And what I noticed time and time again, is that if you don't do 1042 00:53:52,200 --> 00:53:54,700 that, you build a low, trust environment and low trust 1043 00:53:54,700 --> 00:53:57,900 environments or where information gets hidden mistakes 1044 00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:00,100 get made, but they also get hidden. 1045 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:03,800 And all of this damage is decision-making and it makes 1046 00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,500 learning nearly impossible. It's also really stressful and 1047 00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:10,800 inevitably it creates a situation where the people that 1048 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:13,700 you can least afford to lose our usually end up being the first 1049 00:54:13,700 --> 00:54:16,500 to go. So by respecting people, you 1050 00:54:16,500 --> 00:54:19,600 make it. So that those people really 1051 00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,700 never want to leave, they always want to put it in at all. 1052 00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:26,800 They always want to be able to help be successful because again 1053 00:54:26,900 --> 00:54:29,800 they're there and they're helping be part of achieving the 1054 00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,800 target out. Well really beautiful message 1055 00:54:32,800 --> 00:54:34,500 for people who just listen, right? 1056 00:54:34,500 --> 00:54:37,500 I think respecting people is part of the very crucial 1057 00:54:37,500 --> 00:54:40,300 important elements of leadership I would say because at the end 1058 00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:42,600 of the day it's not just the leader, who do the job is 1059 00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:45,500 actually the people who actually helped to achieve the target 1060 00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:48,200 outcome. So Robert, if people want to 1061 00:54:48,300 --> 00:54:51,300 follow you or continue the conversation online, is there a 1062 00:54:51,300 --> 00:54:53,700 place where they can find you or buy the books and things like 1063 00:54:53,700 --> 00:54:55,500 that? Yeah, I remember the book, I 1064 00:54:55,500 --> 00:54:58,900 have a site that I'm slowly cobbling together Lane 1065 00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:02,200 devops.com, I do. Have a Twitter handle which is 1066 00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,100 leading devops. And sometimes I post things to 1067 00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:09,700 LinkedIn as well. So I haven't been quite as how 1068 00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:13,000 out there as I would like because I've been brought into 1069 00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:17,200 mother of all flaming projects at the moment and a lot of 1070 00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,100 people say new book and I'm like, nope, that's okay. 1071 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,500 But it'll definitely be a learning experience and is 1072 00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:25,900 definitely one of those completely super important. 1073 00:55:25,900 --> 00:55:29,000 Very incredibly complex projects. 1074 00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:30,800 So those would be the places to go. 1075 00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:34,500 I also do try to go out from time to time to speak in the 1076 00:55:34,500 --> 00:55:38,400 community and people as well. So, you know, keep your eye out 1077 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,400 there, you'll find very quickly, I am not a one-way sort of 1078 00:55:41,400 --> 00:55:43,900 person. I like to listen and understand 1079 00:55:43,900 --> 00:55:46,900 what people are actually seeing them as well as to be able to 1080 00:55:46,900 --> 00:55:50,700 provide any sorts of insights and help that I can sum the new 1081 00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:52,500 project is like similar last time, right? 1082 00:55:52,500 --> 00:55:54,900 You always seem to do things that I knew right? 1083 00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:58,000 Nobody has done it before and I wish you good luck with that 1084 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,500 project as well. So thanks a lot for coming here 1085 00:56:00,500 --> 00:56:02,300 and sharing. Sharing your insights Robert. 1086 00:56:02,600 --> 00:56:04,100 Thank you. Thank you for your time. 1087 00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,200 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying, right 1088 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:12,700 until the end if you highly enjoyed it. 1089 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,100 I would appreciate if you share it with your friends and 1090 00:56:15,100 --> 00:56:18,100 colleagues who you think would also benefit from listening to 1091 00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:20,200 this episode. And if you are new to the 1092 00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:23,200 podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable 1093 00:56:23,200 --> 00:56:26,200 review and feedback. It helps me a lot in order to 1094 00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:29,500 grow this podcast better. You can also find the full show 1095 00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:32,900 notes of this conversation on the episode page at technology 1096 00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:36,600 node, death website, including the full transcript interesting. 1097 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,700 Quartz and links to the resources mention from the 1098 00:56:39,700 --> 00:56:42,500 conversation. And lastly, make sure to 1099 00:56:42,500 --> 00:56:44,800 subscribe to the shows mailing list on package. 1100 00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:48,400 You know, dot f to get notified for any future episodes. 1101 00:56:48,500 --> 00:56:50,900 Stay tuned for the next package, you know, episode. 1102 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:52,900 And until then, goodbye.