1 00:00:00,300 --> 00:00:03,400 Knowing and understanding are very different things. 2 00:00:03,500 --> 00:00:07,300 When I come across a new term in an article or book in most 3 00:00:07,300 --> 00:00:09,800 cases. I only know and not yet 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,100 understand unless I practice it along with good guidance. 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,500 I may not increase my understanding. 6 00:00:21,100 --> 00:00:24,600 Hey everyone. My name is Henry sura, one. 7 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:28,500 And you're listening to the tekhelet journal. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,299 The show will be bringing you the greatest technical leaders 9 00:00:32,500 --> 00:00:36,100 practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to 10 00:00:36,100 --> 00:00:40,400 discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all 11 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:44,200 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 12 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,900 and to make an impact in your personal work. 13 00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:53,500 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello everyone. 14 00:00:53,900 --> 00:00:57,300 Welcome back to a new episode. Of the tekhelet journal with me 15 00:00:57,300 --> 00:01:00,100 Ojos Henry. Sarira one before we start 16 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:02,700 today's episode. If you have been enjoying this 17 00:01:02,700 --> 00:01:05,500 podcast so far. It will mean a lot for me. 18 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:08,800 If you subscribe and leave a review of your favorite episodes 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,400 where ever you listen your podcasts from tackle. 20 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:14,600 It Journal is also available for you to follow on, multiple 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:18,600 social media, such as LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. 22 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,800 Every few days. I post inspiring quotes from The 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,700 Amazing guests in the available episodes, and in the future, You 24 00:01:25,700 --> 00:01:28,800 can also get new updates about the podcast from there. 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,400 You can also leave your feedback directly on technique Journal 26 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:37,500 website at tekhelet Journal dot f, / feedback, feedback is a 27 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:41,100 gift and I appreciate if you can leave me any comments or any 28 00:01:41,100 --> 00:01:44,300 suggestions including any potential guests that you would 29 00:01:44,300 --> 00:01:46,200 like to have here in this podcast. 30 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:51,200 So in this episode, I had the opportunity to discuss with 31 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:55,500 Stanley Lau one of the early leaders of the a gel Singapore. 32 00:01:56,500 --> 00:01:59,900 I met Stanley from the age, our meetups and subsequently at 33 00:01:59,900 --> 00:02:03,300 various workshops that he organized inviting various 34 00:02:03,300 --> 00:02:06,700 world-class thought leaders to come to Singapore to share their 35 00:02:06,700 --> 00:02:10,800 knowledge and wisdom. Ultimately Stanley was also able 36 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:15,000 to pull off multiple successful, Asia conferences, and I still 37 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:17,300 remember from all these conferences. 38 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,500 I had the chance to see several of these thought, leaders on 39 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:24,700 stage people, like, Martin Fowler can back Michael 40 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:27,800 feathers. And many others I even had fewer 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,600 opportunities to take some pictures with them which are 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,900 forever Sherry's in my memory. So I fully appreciate of what 43 00:02:34,900 --> 00:02:38,400 Stanley has done to the growth of a gel community in Singapore 44 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,400 and also around this region in this episode. 45 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:46,200 We discussed about Stan, Lee's career journey and the unique 46 00:02:46,200 --> 00:02:50,000 culture of odd e0 the company where he is currently working at 47 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:52,600 Stanley. Also shared his view on the 48 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,300 current a gel State and some misconceptions that Rising in 49 00:02:56,300 --> 00:03:00,500 the industry nowadays and even suggested on how we can bring a 50 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:02,900 gel adoption back to its Essence. 51 00:03:03,300 --> 00:03:07,000 So I hope all of you enjoy this episode with Stan, Lee Lao. 52 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,400 Hey with Stanley. Thanks for spending your time on 53 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:15,000 tactic Journal. I know Stanley since few years 54 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,400 back when we all have a jar conferences going on in 55 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,600 Singapore. And also, I met Stanley Cup few 56 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,200 times in training with thought leaders from around the world. 57 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,600 So Stanley also, Help to bring those kind of thought leaders to 58 00:03:27,600 --> 00:03:31,000 Singapore to help conduct workshops and I attended some of 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:33,400 them get to know Stanley a little bit more. 60 00:03:33,700 --> 00:03:35,800 And today. I'm really happy to have Stanley 61 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:40,100 to be part of this episode and I hope we can learn from Stanley a 62 00:03:40,100 --> 00:03:44,400 lot. So Stanley one thing that I read 63 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:48,500 about your career, right is that you have a very interesting 64 00:03:48,500 --> 00:03:51,900 journey. I read one in body page where it 65 00:03:51,900 --> 00:03:55,200 mentioned that you used to think that your career as a developer 66 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,500 will Stuck. And then you have to go to 67 00:03:57,500 --> 00:03:59,900 become a manager in order to progress. 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,500 But you decided that you want to try something else in which what 69 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:06,800 you're doing a toddy. Could you tell me a little bit 70 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,700 of the thought process behind that? 71 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:11,300 And what have you learned based on that decision? 72 00:04:11,900 --> 00:04:14,500 Sure. So, this I'll need to go back 73 00:04:14,500 --> 00:04:18,100 into history that is about. I think, in 2004. 74 00:04:18,200 --> 00:04:22,500 I was out from the Army in Singapore, military and I got a 75 00:04:22,508 --> 00:04:25,100 diploma in information technology and I will. 76 00:04:25,100 --> 00:04:28,700 So So beginning my part-time studies in computer science 77 00:04:28,700 --> 00:04:30,600 because I didn't want to take a full-time. 78 00:04:30,700 --> 00:04:33,700 Otherwise, I would not have enough medical experience. 79 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,900 So I decided to work directly at that time as a software. 80 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:40,200 Developer after five work through about three companies 81 00:04:40,300 --> 00:04:44,100 like Motorola and small company in a larger company of various 82 00:04:44,100 --> 00:04:47,300 domains. I saw some common patterns that 83 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:51,100 people around me in my peers, who graduated with me on 84 00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:54,500 computer science or in it. Eventually, they went out of 85 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:57,500 this View and For those that remain in this field, they try 86 00:04:57,500 --> 00:04:59,600 to get into managerial positions. 87 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,300 Do tell me that from you cannot be a programmer forever. 88 00:05:02,300 --> 00:05:05,100 You eventually need to become a manager or at a time. 89 00:05:05,100 --> 00:05:08,900 The popularity is project manager and otherwise most of my 90 00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:11,900 friends went out to 0 psi t for you. 91 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:14,700 They went to realize State's Financial domains. 92 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:16,800 We become more business oriented. 93 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:20,600 And one of the reasons is also because it is very hot working, 94 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,000 as a software developer often. You need to work long hours 95 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:28,300 firefighting analyst. Early, so I didn't really accept 96 00:05:28,300 --> 00:05:31,000 that. This is how software development 97 00:05:31,000 --> 00:05:33,700 should be. I think there are other ways 98 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:36,300 that there are other companies that approach software 99 00:05:36,300 --> 00:05:39,800 development differently, and in a more growth manner, there's a 100 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:43,800 lot of learning and then making things better early in my 101 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:46,400 career. I try to look for mentors people 102 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,700 who work and learn data practices from. 103 00:05:48,900 --> 00:05:52,800 And after three companies. I stopped finding because I 104 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:54,900 realized that there isn't one in Singapore. 105 00:05:55,100 --> 00:05:58,600 So therefore I needed to take this responsibility myself to 106 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,000 learn what other better practices on the internet. 107 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,900 So at a time, there is the server-side.com very early days. 108 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:08,000 Java is popular. User of the dotnet platform. 109 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,500 There is also very popular and gradually service. 110 00:06:10,500 --> 00:06:14,100 I also post articles about practices like clean coat unit. 111 00:06:14,100 --> 00:06:17,300 Testing test driven development, which I don't really understand 112 00:06:17,300 --> 00:06:19,900 at that point in time what those things means. 113 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:23,700 So then later on there is also this website called invoke 114 00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:27,700 you.com., They post a lot More variety of practices and also 115 00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:31,700 Technologies pick up clean code book and I learn, I enjoy it. 116 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:35,200 The more I read the next book, I went up to is domain-driven 117 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:37,400 design. It opened up my eyes. 118 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:40,100 There is so much more to software development than just 119 00:06:40,100 --> 00:06:42,900 code and fix and then pray that it works in production. 120 00:06:43,100 --> 00:06:45,600 So since then, I've been learning myself, some of the 121 00:06:45,600 --> 00:06:48,300 technical practices like refactoring like you need 122 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:50,600 testing eventually. I know myself. 123 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:53,000 I hit a limit. This is the most that I can 124 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,400 learn myself self learn from the out here. 125 00:06:55,500 --> 00:07:00,100 An Internet that was in 2008, I think so. 126 00:07:00,100 --> 00:07:04,600 I thought maybe there is some courses in Singapore that teach 127 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,100 tdd test-driven development or refactoring. 128 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:09,900 So I searched in there's none. The closest I can get is how to 129 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:11,900 be architect. All the documentation and 130 00:07:11,900 --> 00:07:14,300 processes wasn't really interesting to that. 131 00:07:14,300 --> 00:07:16,900 But I thought maybe this is how software development is 132 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,000 eventually need to go there. There is a forum in Yahoo 133 00:07:20,000 --> 00:07:22,900 groups. There's this guy named bus 134 00:07:22,900 --> 00:07:26,200 folder and he is doing a cause in Singapore. 135 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,500 Call scrub my phone. It's cam. 136 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,300 So that's good. What's interesting is, his 137 00:07:31,300 --> 00:07:36,000 profile is interesting. He is the quarter of CPU test, 138 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,600 which is a unit testing framework for C++. 139 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:43,200 And he's giving this scrum Master calls, like a master of 140 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,000 skin. So I don't really care about 141 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:49,500 what this causes, what I want to meet this person and see what I 142 00:07:49,508 --> 00:07:53,000 can learn from. When I attend this corset open 143 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:55,900 up my perspective. It broaden is like a Whole New 144 00:07:55,900 --> 00:08:00,700 Horizon just in which there is so much about company Dynamics. 145 00:08:00,700 --> 00:08:04,800 And also practices that I try to encourage my peers at a time my 146 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,700 colleagues, like I still remember over the cubicle. 147 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:09,800 I told my colleague, no clinical book. 148 00:08:09,900 --> 00:08:11,700 This is very very interesting though. 149 00:08:11,700 --> 00:08:14,600 You need to read it then he'll say that read books. 150 00:08:14,900 --> 00:08:18,000 I only only read newspapers in toilet. 151 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,400 I don't read books. So now I mean that's the first 152 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:25,100 form of what I learned as resistance. 153 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:27,500 I don't know what to make out of that. 154 00:08:27,500 --> 00:08:30,800 Is this a customer or what? And I didn't really bother. 155 00:08:31,100 --> 00:08:34,600 So I try to encourage my my peers at times about what I 156 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:37,000 read. So Buzz voter 3 scrum Master 157 00:08:37,000 --> 00:08:39,700 calls. I learned that he is not only 158 00:08:39,700 --> 00:08:42,900 good at technical practices or understanding product 159 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:44,600 development at a technical level. 160 00:08:44,700 --> 00:08:48,700 But also how he relates the codebase, the ship of the code 161 00:08:48,700 --> 00:08:51,000 base relates to the problems in organization. 162 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,000 So if you want to make any changes in organization, you 163 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:56,700 need to learn about all Dynamics. 164 00:08:56,700 --> 00:08:59,700 That is when we live together that relates with each other. 165 00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:02,200 He has a lot of Amazon reviews on books. 166 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,200 So I went to search all his reviews that are four to five 167 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,400 stars. I will buy all of them and very 168 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:10,600 soon, my cubicle is full of books and then my colleague was 169 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:12,600 saying, no Stanley, what happened to you? 170 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:14,800 Suddenly, you have a lot of books on a shelf. 171 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:18,900 These are these are books. I like to read in, China's you 172 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,300 call it confirm manual. That is secret menu. 173 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:24,000 This have the answers. So, going back to your question, 174 00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:27,600 my quest of finding a man. Mental led me to discover the 175 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,300 ins and outs of product development and let me to the 176 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:32,700 interest of helping others to be better problem. 177 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:35,300 Solvers. First in the past decade. 178 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:38,900 I decided to mostly focus on coaching mentoring and training. 179 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,200 I found also auti is one of the unique companies in which you 180 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,100 have different set of working process, different set of 181 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:48,400 culture. Maybe you can share with the 182 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,900 listeners, hear about what's so unique about either. 183 00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:54,100 You think with to share what everybody? 184 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,900 Oh, sheriff. First, before I explain the 185 00:09:56,900 --> 00:10:00,900 concept, when I joined Ali, I asked boss, how many days of 186 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:02,100 annual leave? I have. 187 00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:04,800 He asked back. How many days do you usually 188 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:08,300 have a reply the same number as my X company at a time? 189 00:10:08,300 --> 00:10:11,200 And he said, okay, I regretted it immediately. 190 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,100 He also told me a bunch of things which I didn't really 191 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:16,400 understand at that time. I thought was cool. 192 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,300 Like you decides your own title. There is no hierarchy and 193 00:10:20,300 --> 00:10:22,100 manager. It was later. 194 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:25,300 Then I realized there is no HR, you know, Lee. 195 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:27,500 And no one keeping track of your annual. 196 00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:31,300 Leave you decide how you want to work and be responsible for the 197 00:10:31,300 --> 00:10:32,900 organization and working with each other. 198 00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:37,100 So Buzz, followed all the as an experiment to see what will 199 00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:39,600 happen. If the organization is based on 200 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:41,600 principles of self-managing teams. 201 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:45,800 We have no hierarchy management structure or centralized 202 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:48,600 control, though. He is, the founder is not the 203 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,800 boss of the company. There is no manager within each 204 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,400 team. There is also no structure but 205 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,600 together, they I do have a responsibility for their profit 206 00:10:57,600 --> 00:10:59,500 and loss. They will make their own 207 00:10:59,500 --> 00:11:02,800 decisions about basically everything like which class to 208 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:07,000 work how to deal with finances and how we set our own salary. 209 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,700 So you can imagine each team is like a company and it is also 210 00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:15,500 usually it's only go entity instead of having company 211 00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:17,300 values. We have the opposite. 212 00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:21,400 What we never do for example, all you never does performance 213 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,200 appraisals, never optimize only for profit and growth there. 214 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,400 We hire people because we have work and never gives up writing 215 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,300 code. So it has been a decade and we 216 00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:35,500 have now more than ten teams located in different parts of 217 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:37,400 the world. Every half-yearly. 218 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,600 We have a gathering at some location and spends a week 219 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:42,900 exchange, learnings and write code. 220 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,800 Although now times have changed. I'm not sure when we will be 221 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,000 able to do that again, but we'll see. 222 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,000 So there are challenges with the corporate and accounting 223 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:55,300 practices on already because it assumes ownership. 224 00:11:55,300 --> 00:11:59,100 Where someone is in control? So, if you think of Accra, which 225 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:02,100 is Singapore's Authority for accounting and corporate 226 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:05,800 practices, you must have a director and shareholders. 227 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,900 And so, and so forth. That is what we thought of as a 228 00:12:08,900 --> 00:12:12,000 ownership model. We actively not let that 229 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,600 influence how you want to work. And if you think about it, it is 230 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:19,200 easy for any organizations to be influenced by how Corporate 231 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,800 practices want them to work. One of the reasons people join 232 00:12:22,800 --> 00:12:26,600 or a, is because we dislike how most of Organizations are run 233 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:28,900 against this mix hottie quite unique. 234 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,200 Thanks for sharing that. It's pretty unique in your point 235 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,000 of view, having seen the corporate world and having work. 236 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,900 Now with this kind of culture like set your own salary. 237 00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:40,900 No appraiser, you do what you want to do and you own your 238 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:43,800 profit and loss, right? What are the key big difference 239 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:47,700 that you think are beneficial for people to at least know and 240 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:51,400 acknowledge that these kind of working model might work, right? 241 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:55,000 A call or is designed with the acknowledgement that people 242 00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,800 want. Learn and be better. 243 00:12:57,100 --> 00:12:59,700 So what we say and do are congruent. 244 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,100 It is different from most companies where they expects you 245 00:13:02,100 --> 00:13:04,700 to be better, but have structures and policies. 246 00:13:04,700 --> 00:13:07,000 That backfire. I believe people have good 247 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,900 intentions, but because of the organization rules that 248 00:13:09,900 --> 00:13:13,300 accumulates over time, influences, people's behavior 249 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:16,500 and dehumanized, they work place over time. 250 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:20,400 You come in terms with how the organization play games and you 251 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:24,500 work within the Box until you join one of those bars voters 252 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:27,300 courses. You may either become aware of 253 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:31,200 yourself being in the box that wants to get out and improve or 254 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,000 defend yourself to keep yourself in a box for those that wants to 255 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:39,000 improve the enthusiasm usually last for a couple of weeks 256 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,000 before the force few moves, you back to the shape of the box. 257 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:46,700 If the organization doesn't improve your accumulating, 258 00:13:46,700 --> 00:13:49,600 frustration will lead you to leave the company. 259 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:53,600 It is not uncommon to hear these stories from our students when 260 00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:57,000 they know what can be better. I don't suggest all 261 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,400 organizations. Should follow Audie model. 262 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,800 If I start a cafe shop or HR software Product Company, I 263 00:14:03,808 --> 00:14:06,700 would manage it differently because the context is 264 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:08,800 different. However, Concepts like 265 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,800 self-managing can be useful, especially in product 266 00:14:11,800 --> 00:14:16,200 development, and it doesn't mean you cannot have managers on the 267 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:18,500 other hand. There is nothing new to this 268 00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:21,700 Concepts that I mentioned. There are many evidence-based, 269 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,400 studies done on this area. There is a mooc called 270 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:28,300 abolishing. The proposals we shows how and 271 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,400 why traditional processes backfire and what to do 272 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:34,200 differently. There is the principle of Beyond 273 00:14:34,200 --> 00:14:38,400 budgeting the idea of abolishing traditional budgeting processes 274 00:14:38,500 --> 00:14:42,600 because of its inherent flaws, numerous studies on the 275 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:46,300 importance of growing, real teams and team coaching to 276 00:14:46,300 --> 00:14:50,000 create a learning organization. And more recently, actually five 277 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:55,500 years ago is moral, gave an insightful, Ted Talk on how Too 278 00:14:55,500 --> 00:14:58,600 many rules at work. Keep you from getting things 279 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,200 done, which highlights how with lots of rules, processes, and 280 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:06,100 Matrix keeps us from doing our best work all together. 281 00:15:06,500 --> 00:15:09,900 So why would a software developer care about this? 282 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:13,400 There is a high chance that performance appraisals 283 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,300 traditional budgeting traditional processes 284 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,900 Department, silos managed by control, thinking, of people as 285 00:15:20,900 --> 00:15:24,900 resource to the utilize, this form the box that will 286 00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:27,500 influence. Your behavior and thinking, 287 00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:31,700 subconsciously, understanding this can reduce the influence 288 00:15:31,700 --> 00:15:34,700 and gain back. Control of your own growth. 289 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:37,500 Yeah. It is easier said than done. 290 00:15:37,500 --> 00:15:41,300 I know, since the time I became aware of this ten years ago. 291 00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,300 I noticed more organizations are challenging, the Box. 292 00:15:44,500 --> 00:15:48,800 Usually not a whole company, but okay, Soviets and I'm aware that 293 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,800 it is not easy hearing what you're saying. 294 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,600 It seems like this is kind of related to how A gel should work 295 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,900 in a way and switching the topic little bit now to Asia. 296 00:15:59,900 --> 00:16:02,000 All right, I mean, Asia is your bread and butter. 297 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:06,000 You've been a job coach, you have scrum certifications, and 298 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,900 all that. You also work with bass who 299 00:16:07,900 --> 00:16:11,300 invented less, obviously scrum has been around for like many 300 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:13,800 years now. And in fact, the popularity is 301 00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,300 pretty, pretty huge. But I see personally in my 302 00:16:17,300 --> 00:16:20,300 opinion, that there are people who are now being skeptical 303 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:22,600 about a gel and scrum thinking of it. 304 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:24,900 Maybe it's a scam, you know, when people come with the 305 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:28,000 titles, Mustache, or is he a scam Master? 306 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,400 You know, that kind of thing. So, can you maybe clarify a bit 307 00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:34,600 about a gel State at the moment in the industry? 308 00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:37,300 And what do you think? Are some of the misconceptions 309 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:40,600 that people see in Asia? I'm going to clarify briefly 310 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:44,000 what a job and scrum off first before share my thoughts about a 311 00:16:44,008 --> 00:16:46,900 misconception and y'all is a Manifesto. 312 00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:49,900 Containing four values and twelve principles written by a 313 00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:53,100 group of programmers in 2001, who are frustrated by the 314 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,300 traditional development processes at a time. 315 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:58,400 I'm so founders of extreme programming and scrum with 316 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,400 there, and they had been challenging, the traditional 317 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,500 development for many years before the authors of agile. 318 00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:08,000 Manifesto had only thought it was a good meet up and didn't 319 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:11,700 expect anything after that. But people fall out and it 320 00:17:11,708 --> 00:17:15,099 became a movement. What is means is there were 321 00:17:15,099 --> 00:17:18,599 people who resonated with the altars in improving software 322 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,800 development, extreme programming and strong became the most 323 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:25,300 popular and often used in combination extreme programming. 324 00:17:25,500 --> 00:17:28,900 Has very useful technical practices that refactoring pair 325 00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:32,100 programming, and continuous integration that helps to reduce 326 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,000 the feedback loop in development. 327 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,000 Some of these practices were stolen from the good parts of 328 00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,800 traditional development like code review and when you turn 329 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,700 the frequency output becomes pair programming, so it's called 330 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:46,500 Extreme for scrum. There are three keys first is 331 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:48,900 cross-functional and self managing team. 332 00:17:49,100 --> 00:17:51,600 As you can imagine. This is a bigger change in your 333 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,600 organization compared to adopting technical practice like 334 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,400 refactoring. It will challenge the box and 335 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,700 you need different type of skills for that. 336 00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:03,200 Second is acknowledging that we are in a complex domain and 337 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,400 therefore we need to inspect and adapt on how and what we work. 338 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,500 Third is acknowledging. We are developing products and 339 00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:14,500 not projects. So it is common to have teams 340 00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:18,100 use cron, along with a few technical practices from extreme 341 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:21,000 programming. Let's talk about misconception 342 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:24,100 moves of the misconceptions that came across other lack of 343 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:27,000 understanding. I'm Person in Asia made up and 344 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,400 he told me that they were using daily stand-up. 345 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:31,400 Therefore. They were doing scrum. 346 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:35,200 I have seen more than 10 times. The developer created, the task 347 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:39,300 that saves refactoring, but when iPad with him, he was rewriting 348 00:18:39,300 --> 00:18:43,500 and adding more functionalities knowing and understanding are 349 00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:46,600 very different things. When I come across a new term in 350 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,300 an article or book in most cases. 351 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:53,900 I only know and not yet, understand unless I practice it 352 00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,100 along with good ingredients. Since I may not increase my 353 00:18:57,100 --> 00:19:00,800 understanding, another common misconception is left from the 354 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,800 people being forced to do Agile scrum. 355 00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:07,100 It could be the headquarters, wanted in various development 356 00:19:07,100 --> 00:19:11,300 sites, to have agile scrum, India, contract or a company's 357 00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:15,200 management rollout and agile wide adoption initiative. 358 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:20,000 These are breeding ground for just show the motion without 359 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,900 real change on certifications. If you are the organization, how 360 00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,900 can you easily know that? Well, qualified for something 361 00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:31,800 certifications, do this thinking is flawed. 362 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,400 Most companies still do it because it is easier to manage 363 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:37,500 by numbers. So the same people for 364 00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:41,400 certifications, which creates the demand suppliers, use this 365 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,100 Dynamic to create certifications to fuel the team and I want to 366 00:19:45,100 --> 00:19:48,200 highlight that certified scrum. Master doesn't mean you 367 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,300 understand and skilled at it. The reason or ee we still have 368 00:19:52,300 --> 00:19:56,000 certifications is because this dynamic in the Street is too 369 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,900 strong that if we don't, it is hard to share our experience 370 00:19:59,900 --> 00:20:03,900 with people in public trainings. And we are always up front about 371 00:20:03,900 --> 00:20:06,700 the truth in certifications to our participants. 372 00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:08,200 Yeah. I find that also. 373 00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,600 This is quite dangerous, right? Because as we all know, people 374 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,700 tend to like overhype, sometimes about a certain practices like a 375 00:20:15,700 --> 00:20:18,800 gel devops SRE, you see? I see there's so many things, 376 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,600 right? So what do you think can be done 377 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,200 in order to put back a gel to what it was originally? 378 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,500 Intended for to rule out all these misconceptions or even if 379 00:20:29,500 --> 00:20:33,200 you want to advise people who really want to go dive, deep 380 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:35,400 into this scrum or Asia. All right. 381 00:20:35,500 --> 00:20:39,300 What should they be focusing on focus on the essence? 382 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,900 One approach that I tend to like to think instead ignore this 383 00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,800 term scrum and agile stuff. I think about how do you improve 384 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,300 your work? What are the challenges are 385 00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:50,900 meeting today? What have you tried to improve 386 00:20:50,900 --> 00:20:52,800 it? And then what it have you not 387 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:55,200 tried. Who can you seek out for to? 388 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:58,800 Get guidance whether you're on the right direction or not. 389 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,500 And if you have this thinking of trying to improve your work 390 00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:04,700 every day and also try to understand the broad 391 00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:08,700 perspective, the things that you do who is going to use it. 392 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,800 We don't get the benefits of it. Who is this valuable for? 393 00:21:11,900 --> 00:21:14,400 How is this relate to the End customer? 394 00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:18,500 So the thinking of this and also, how do I know? 395 00:21:18,500 --> 00:21:21,300 This is what they want a minor issue on the right direction. 396 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:24,100 How do I know who can ask for weather? 397 00:21:24,100 --> 00:21:26,900 Is this the right direction? Maybe you know, ask the 398 00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:28,800 customers you need to ask someone else. 399 00:21:29,000 --> 00:21:31,500 Who am I depending on? What is the Assumption? 400 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:35,100 I'm making, is this assumption still valid or am I trying to my 401 00:21:35,100 --> 00:21:36,900 wreath what other people are thinking? 402 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,400 I need to check. So therefore I need to Pink 403 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,200 someone as early as possible. This is the the kind of feedback 404 00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,200 getting very tight feedback. I think this is one of the 405 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:49,000 essence hearing from what you're saying. 406 00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:52,400 It doesn't work just for like a group of small teams, right? 407 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,200 Being certified scrum and then they should. 408 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,000 Able to incorporate that to the whole company's, right? 409 00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,900 I mean in essence, Asia is about culture ways of working the ways 410 00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:05,900 of thinking as well. So I think it's more than just 411 00:22:05,900 --> 00:22:09,300 getting certifications and probably I don't know what's the 412 00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:13,200 best way for people or company in general to actually adopt a 413 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,100 job other than bringing a bunch of people like you who has 414 00:22:17,100 --> 00:22:21,200 experienced a lot and doing this and trying to inculcate, that 415 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:25,200 practices, that ways of thinking ways of working in order to be 416 00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:28,200 Able to finally adopt these whole HR practices. 417 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:31,800 I mean, that's my take of it, switching a little bit about, 418 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,400 you know, you mentioned so many times about mentors learning 419 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,400 from people who have experienced before. 420 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,700 I noticed that all the contributions that you have made 421 00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:40,900 to the community, especially in Singapore, right? 422 00:22:40,900 --> 00:22:42,800 I still remember that few years back. 423 00:22:42,800 --> 00:22:46,900 We had this Asia conferences. We have so many great speakers 424 00:22:46,900 --> 00:22:49,100 and thought. Leaders Martin, Fowler can back 425 00:22:49,100 --> 00:22:51,200 and so many others, right? I think. 426 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,100 That's one thing that I see from you. 427 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:55,000 Is that you seeking this kind of a thought. 428 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:59,000 Us to actually learn from them. What do you say about learning 429 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:01,800 from all these people and going to workshop? 430 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,500 And some of them are actually paid workshops, right? 431 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:08,400 So, do you think it's something that we as practitioners need to 432 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:12,900 do continuously and frequently from time to time I think so, I 433 00:23:12,908 --> 00:23:16,700 think the reason I bring these people to here is because of the 434 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,300 ease of access. The reason I do conferences here 435 00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:23,800 and bring people here is I was inspired when I went to the 436 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,200 North America's agile conference. 437 00:23:25,300 --> 00:23:29,500 Since 2010, and those thousands of people that you can just walk 438 00:23:29,500 --> 00:23:33,000 along the corridor and you see Marty follow you see on Kebab, 439 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,400 whether you say hi to the end and have some discussions with 440 00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,200 them. So I realized Singapore is so 441 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,200 far away from where these ideas are being originated. 442 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,000 So, I want to make it easier for people to access by bringing 443 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,600 them here. So I provide opportunities and I 444 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:50,900 believe our people who turned out most of them. 445 00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:54,000 In fact, I over the time, I got to know quite a few of them who 446 00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,200 often turned up some of the work. 447 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:57,100 Stay organized including you as well. 448 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,000 No, these are the people that are seeking for learning for guy 449 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:05,500 Diaz and looking for different perspectives because this 450 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:07,700 workshops are not frequent there. 451 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:11,600 Once in a blue moon and either you get it now or never. 452 00:24:11,700 --> 00:24:14,800 So that people will even one pay themselves for for this 453 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,900 workshops right off there. I got the right people who have 454 00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:20,900 this thirst for Learning, and I'm not sure if this is 455 00:24:20,900 --> 00:24:24,900 something that I would say, everybody should do it because 456 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,100 the People factors the prices that I said in the workshops is 457 00:24:28,100 --> 00:24:31,200 at a cost price to make it possible for people to attend. 458 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,500 But I also people who couldn't attend because they will have to 459 00:24:33,500 --> 00:24:35,800 folk out on that deal to sell sponsor. 460 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,100 Themself company, wouldn't sponsor. 461 00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:41,200 And I think there are Financial methods that even people who 462 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,000 once it's they may not able to attend it and they also people 463 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:47,700 who don't find a relationship to that. 464 00:24:47,900 --> 00:24:50,700 So if I were to say that, no, you should go for this this 465 00:24:50,700 --> 00:24:53,500 Workshop, but if they can't find a relationship, there is a 466 00:24:53,500 --> 00:24:56,200 disconnection. It may not be the This bath but 467 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,300 it may not be at the right time or maybe really that's this 468 00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,600 content is not relevant to this person and it's point in time 469 00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:05,600 and I only accept that. So what I would rather encourage 470 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,800 is that people to think for themselves, you can be very 471 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:13,100 short term, how they want to improve their work right now and 472 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:17,500 usually that would lead them to find more answers to the 473 00:25:17,500 --> 00:25:20,100 questions that they have. And probably one of these 474 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:24,300 workshops could connect Stanley. I realize also looking back at 475 00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:28,000 your career in The last few years that you moved out of body 476 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:30,800 for a while for like one year joining Gulf Tech. 477 00:25:30,900 --> 00:25:34,500 And before that, you told me that you had a thinking process 478 00:25:34,500 --> 00:25:36,600 behind it. So, can you share a little bit? 479 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,500 What made you make that decision? 480 00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:42,000 And also, what have you learned going back to the industry for 481 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,500 like one year or so before you join back body now? 482 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:50,200 So in order here, I've often been external person that is not 483 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,700 a internal staff. So I don't get the internal 484 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:57,700 bureaucracies and process. Us, that is required aspect of 485 00:25:57,700 --> 00:26:01,400 an employee typical employee being this axial position for a 486 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,000 long time. I see things, of course, on the 487 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:08,200 outside of box perspective. I also acknowledge that I'm 488 00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:12,800 missing or maybe I forgot how it was like 10 years ago when I was 489 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,600 still an employee of a corporation, this is about 490 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,900 empathy as well. The people that I coach software 491 00:26:17,900 --> 00:26:20,300 developers that pair with them. What are they actually 492 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:23,400 struggling within the company? The question pop up? 493 00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,100 I do not know this question. I know. 494 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,300 That knowing this question or this answer can help me improve 495 00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:31,500 my work in a future in coaching them. 496 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:35,500 So therefore, my action is to join the company. 497 00:26:35,700 --> 00:26:39,600 I did this deliberately for one year experiments, one 498 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,500 experiment, join a large corporation and at a time. 499 00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:46,400 I have two choices in the end. I decided to join graphtec with 500 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:49,900 the help of a Stephen. Coe is also interesting to join 501 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:51,400 him. At that time. 502 00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,500 He is under government digital service. 503 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,400 I got to see what Of leadership. He is in the company. 504 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,500 So eventually I joined that and I'm subcon to manage enough 505 00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,200 manpower as a software developer. 506 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,700 I think I enjoyed that a lot. Although I struggle a lot as 507 00:27:06,700 --> 00:27:08,300 well. Like the first things I struggle 508 00:27:08,300 --> 00:27:10,500 is that I have to reach the office. 509 00:27:10,900 --> 00:27:14,600 Follow the office hours. Now you clock or 9:30 to reach 510 00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,600 J. And then leave by 6:00, or 7:00 511 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,900 back in early. I, there's no timing. 512 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,200 That's all what I was kind of concept. 513 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,900 So, I struggle that for quite quite a bit and then Then I also 514 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:29,800 get to have performance appraisals, 10 years. 515 00:27:30,300 --> 00:27:32,200 I need to do a performance appraisals for myself. 516 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:34,900 Again. I have a supervisor if a 517 00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:38,200 technique this hierarchy of things and there is managers and 518 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,300 so on when I joined I didn't expect what I would learn. 519 00:27:41,500 --> 00:27:46,200 I'm just open minded and and being a obedient stuff. 520 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:48,200 Try myself to be in that position. 521 00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,500 And what will happen. What comes in the first three 522 00:27:50,500 --> 00:27:51,400 months? I said, yes. 523 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:55,100 I'm a programmer or work on the function. 524 00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:59,700 It is working on programming. I somehow have imagination that 525 00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:04,100 I have this Soul spirit that goes behind me, seeing myself at 526 00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:07,900 this position and comparing myself more than 10 years ago 527 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:09,900 before I joined body as a software developer. 528 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,400 And then this two-person cost and it was like back then. 529 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,900 And then how is he know the things that he would think the 530 00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:21,000 things that you will say, the things he would communicate and 531 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,100 do very, very, very different. So I didn't know. 532 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,000 Know that I could get that kind of reflection on myself. 533 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:32,600 So I'm very surprised on that. So that first is self-awareness. 534 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,800 I learn more about myself. The difference that I have that 535 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,500 is probably more than 10 years apart when I was still a 536 00:28:38,500 --> 00:28:41,000 software developer. The other part learning is so. 537 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:45,400 So in the past, you know, I may not actually ask the customers 538 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,500 or the users and may not validate my assumptions with 539 00:28:48,500 --> 00:28:52,400 them, that much, I would keep on coding, but now I would find 540 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:55,000 ways to validate my assumptions. Much. 541 00:28:55,300 --> 00:28:57,900 Charlie on. Like there's one one case which 542 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:01,400 is typical, is that you have a backlog item, for a background 543 00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,300 item, use this story, for example, to do some 544 00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:08,700 functionality in this screen. So then typical developer would 545 00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:12,100 just assume as myself in the past, which also look into that 546 00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:14,400 or what are the statements are in the jarate. 547 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,500 Kate what it says? And I will try to cording to 548 00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:18,700 that. So what I did differently this 549 00:29:18,700 --> 00:29:22,200 time is that I come out with specifications as a beautiful 550 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,100 specifications in cucumber. So coming up with a scenario. 551 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,300 Bro, if this happens and then if this is some of the inputs and 552 00:29:30,300 --> 00:29:33,900 then based on a user action, what is the expected output I 553 00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:35,900 come up with Once? In our, with my Paris? 554 00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:38,600 My power was quite eager to get on to the code. 555 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:40,700 I was like, hold on. Wait wait, I don't quite 556 00:29:40,700 --> 00:29:43,900 understand and also because I'm new to the domain, so I call me 557 00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:46,600 once in a row first and then I share with you, is this why you 558 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,800 understand? And he says, I'm not sure, I 559 00:29:48,808 --> 00:29:53,600 think so and maybe it was Oscar the product owner. 560 00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:58,800 Then we asked to the prom. In and she sees a net know, I 561 00:29:58,808 --> 00:30:03,400 think there's something something different immediately. 562 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:08,200 We validates our understanding on the business level, right? 563 00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,600 Imagine. We went into court and we think 564 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:14,100 that this is how it is. We trusted documentation. 565 00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:19,200 So, I never work at this level that deeply as much as when I 566 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,400 was as an agile, coach back in already. 567 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,000 Hmm, biochemical. See how this challenges. 568 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,500 My peers around me as well. Yeah, after embryo perspectives 569 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:32,400 that you haven't thought about there is another conversation 570 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:35,400 with my pair. I think that was an integration 571 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:38,800 work and he wanted to create this classes because that's what 572 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,700 the task said. I asked him. 573 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:44,400 Why do you need these glasses? He couldn't answer the real 574 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,600 Reflections. He said he should perhaps first 575 00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,400 thing about why he needs those before jumping to court. 576 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,000 That's very good learning. Yeah, so interesting. 577 00:30:55,500 --> 00:30:59,000 I'm supposed to be a software developer coding at the end 578 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,000 after the closed end of one year. 579 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,300 My colleagues told me that. No, thanks for your coaching. 580 00:31:04,300 --> 00:31:07,800 I don't deliberately want to coach but it happens to be. 581 00:31:09,100 --> 00:31:10,800 So having experienced all these first. 582 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,000 Of course, you improve yourself internally your self-awareness 583 00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:16,400 and things like that. You also have seen all this 584 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,800 working practices could be done better. 585 00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,300 So now coming back to our T, putting your head back as an HR 586 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:26,500 coach. What can you probably Now share 587 00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:29,900 with all your customers about what you have experienced from 588 00:31:29,900 --> 00:31:33,200 that one year and things that they should be either like 589 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:37,300 focusing on or maybe thinking of improving instead of just hire 590 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:39,500 coach. And, you know, everything will 591 00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:42,300 be okay. I think that it is less of that 592 00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:45,900 part where I could tell them that what they should do. 593 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,400 There is more about my empathy on the teams that I work with. 594 00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,800 Now, them engage that in the past. 595 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,900 I used to have this aspect ation that A program for sometime or 596 00:31:56,900 --> 00:31:59,700 maybe I gave some workshops. I think you should know this 597 00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:01,900 topics. But when I see that you don't 598 00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,900 see that, I have this feeling that, no, you're not really 599 00:32:04,900 --> 00:32:07,900 learning or notice. Is there some problem with how I 600 00:32:07,908 --> 00:32:10,500 teach? I begin to be more emphasized. 601 00:32:10,500 --> 00:32:13,700 That they have their struggles because of the other kind of 602 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:16,400 policies expectation of them from the company. 603 00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,800 They may not be able to pick up these skills as much as I hope. 604 00:32:20,900 --> 00:32:22,700 And that is okay. Mmm. 605 00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:27,100 I begin to accept this fact. And with this information, it 606 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:31,500 also helps me to revise, my expectations of a coaching 607 00:32:31,500 --> 00:32:34,700 engagement with my sponsors, or maybe they expect that. 608 00:32:34,700 --> 00:32:37,600 Oh, you're here for one month. And then I respect them to the 609 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,500 developers or will be level immediately. 610 00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:45,100 So, I would be able to bring out some examples of what they are 611 00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:48,800 struggling with and that deters them from your learning as 612 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,200 quickly as you wish that they have, right? 613 00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:55,000 So Stanley towards the end of every episode. 614 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,900 I would ask my guess about the three technical leadership 615 00:32:58,900 --> 00:33:01,500 wisdoms that they would like, to share for the listeners. 616 00:33:01,700 --> 00:33:04,200 So would you be able to share? What do you think? 617 00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,100 Are your three technique wisdoms? 618 00:33:06,700 --> 00:33:10,700 First of all, consider the the word calculate, as a leadership 619 00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:15,500 is ability, is ability that anyone in software development 620 00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:18,300 could have, it's not necessary that you must be in the 621 00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:22,000 technique position. So as a new Joyner or even you 622 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:26,000 are experienced or software developer, Product developer. 623 00:33:26,300 --> 00:33:30,900 One of the things that I find very valuable and yet lacking is 624 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,700 having a broad perspective, broad perspective can comes in 625 00:33:34,700 --> 00:33:37,300 different ways. You can be knowing your domain, 626 00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:40,500 the business domain and a broader scope, you can be 627 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,500 instead of just focusing on one component of the of your 628 00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:45,700 application. You could understand how it all 629 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:50,600 links up together, right? From code to building, packaging 630 00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,000 testing to production and you can also be a broad perspective. 631 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,200 In a sense that understanding the Dynamics in your company or 632 00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,700 how you guys work. For example, may be in your team 633 00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:05,200 right now. You do have a business analyst 634 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:09,100 and you have a tester and you are Developer and Broad 635 00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:11,699 perspective. Also means that you understand, 636 00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:15,300 you do not just focusing on programming, but you also 637 00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:19,600 understand what is required of getting a good test results. 638 00:34:20,100 --> 00:34:23,800 How to come up with test cases. You also open to understand how 639 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:27,800 to analyze with requirements. How do I treat talk to users or 640 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,100 customers without this perspective of your peers? 641 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,699 Maybe during a specialized role? It is very hard for you to 642 00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:39,100 collaborate with them. Collaboration is not keeping my 643 00:34:39,100 --> 00:34:42,699 specialty as my specialty and then working with them in this 644 00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:44,699 manner. You can get collaboration from 645 00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:48,100 that you get collaboration from understanding the other 646 00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:52,500 disciplinary skills, and then you can anticipate and you can 647 00:34:52,500 --> 00:34:55,800 empathize what they need. So that you can What we've done 648 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,700 better by providing them, not being more sharper in providing 649 00:34:59,700 --> 00:35:03,200 information to them being Shopper in asking for specific 650 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:05,600 information. So there is a broad perspective. 651 00:35:05,900 --> 00:35:09,400 The other skill is listening. It is very common. 652 00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:13,200 If you are just starting out as a junior programmer or developer 653 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,200 through a few years. I often found depending on our 654 00:35:16,207 --> 00:35:19,300 culture as well. There is more about winning your 655 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,800 argument, then listening, what your peer away. 656 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,500 It comes from. What brought his Or her 657 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,000 argument. If you have that perspective, 658 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,000 then you would ask more questions and you would be able 659 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,500 to listen better. There are different levels of 660 00:35:33,500 --> 00:35:37,000 listening typical level one. Listening means that I listened 661 00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,400 to form an opinion so that I can win. 662 00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,500 My argument the second level of listening and a third level is 663 00:35:42,500 --> 00:35:44,300 more towards really understanding. 664 00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:48,100 What is behind this person says does this person have certain 665 00:35:48,100 --> 00:35:52,600 fears or worries or concerns then instead of sticking to what 666 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:55,000 they say literally and we ask questions. 667 00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:59,300 Elicits what they are feeling about it with this, it helps 668 00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:01,000 yourself to understand other people. 669 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,600 More people will open up and you would have a better conversation 670 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,500 with them. The third thing is mentorship. 671 00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:09,800 It is hot. I've been in this journey and 672 00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,200 took me eight years to find a new Mentor that I would learn 673 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:15,500 from. I think I gave up at one point 674 00:36:15,500 --> 00:36:19,000 in time, but that I found it. So, my assumption is that 675 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,100 eventually you'll find a mentor. Look for my coaching. 676 00:36:22,100 --> 00:36:24,700 His community developer Community is great. 677 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,500 Next people together, you have that opportunity that I don't 678 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:30,900 have before. Back in the time where 679 00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:34,500 communities are still more rare. People don't come out and talk 680 00:36:34,500 --> 00:36:38,900 about things that that much join communities and see who you can 681 00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:41,400 meet and learn from within your company. 682 00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,000 If you find that people who is interested in improving, those 683 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,000 are potentially good mentors that you can learn from. 684 00:36:48,300 --> 00:36:49,700 Yeah. Thank you so much. 685 00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:52,600 Just Andy for sharing all your knowledge experience and 686 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:54,500 especially your unique point of view. 687 00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:57,400 Personally myself. I have learned a lot and I hope 688 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,800 all this in us here could also use this knowledge and level up 689 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,800 your understanding about a gel and also what you should do in 690 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:07,200 order to improve yourself. So, one final question Stanley. 691 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,200 How do people find and connect with you online. 692 00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,300 You can join the adjust, Singapore Meetup Group, Facebook 693 00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,200 as well. You can Facebook message me. 694 00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:19,500 I could provide my email address after this so you can reach up 695 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:22,700 to me as well. Thanks, again for tuning into 696 00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:24,900 this episode and for staying till the end. 697 00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,500 And I learned a lot from Stanley and I hope you also find a lot 698 00:37:28,500 --> 00:37:32,200 of useful, insights that you can immediately apply in your work 699 00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:35,900 and practices. If you find this episode useful, 700 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:39,200 share it with your friends and colleagues, so that they can 701 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,200 also get the benefit from this conversation, please subscribe 702 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,200 and follow technique journal on your favorite podcast app and 703 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,700 also social media. I'll see you in the next episode 704 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:54,200 and until then stay safe. Stay healthy, stay agile, and 705 00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:54,900 stay productive.