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And so Lifestyle Engineering is 
about taking the idea that we 

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have within us a power to create
a different reality, to design 

3
00:00:08,240 --> 00:00:11,240
something different and to 
execute on it, which is 

4
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,280
engineering at its core, right? 
Taking an idea, putting it on 

5
00:00:14,280 --> 00:00:18,600
paper, designing that solution, 
coming up with the best possible

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00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:22,360
strategy and then executing, 
producing it right, distributing

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00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,880
it to the world. 
Well, let's do that in our own 

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00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,380
lives. 
And it's amazing what's possible

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00:00:27,380 --> 00:00:30,260
when you get in the driver's 
seat, you become that engineer 

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00:00:30,260 --> 00:00:32,180
of your lifestyle. 
And that's what we want to do, 

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is actually start asking new 
questions, taking new actions 

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and reaching that next level in 
our career and in our life. 

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00:00:42,740 --> 00:00:47,940
Hey everyone, my name is Henry 
Surya Virawan and you're 

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00:00:47,940 --> 00:00:51,500
listening to the Technically 
Juno podcast, the show where 

15
00:00:51,500 --> 00:00:53,700
I'll be bringing you the 
greatest technical leaders. 

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00:00:54,140 --> 00:00:57,580
Practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

17
00:00:57,580 --> 00:01:01,820
discuss about their journey, 
ideas and practices that we all 

18
00:01:01,820 --> 00:01:05,340
can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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00:01:05,860 --> 00:01:08,060
and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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00:01:08,700 --> 00:01:16,700
So let's dive into our journal. 
Welcome back to the Technical 

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00:01:16,700 --> 00:01:19,220
Journal Podcast, the podcast 
where you can learn about 

22
00:01:19,220 --> 00:01:20,860
technical leadership and 
excellence. 

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00:01:21,320 --> 00:01:23,640
On my conversations with great 
toll leaders in the tech 

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00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,120
industry, If you haven't, please
subscribe on your podcast app 

25
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,920
and social media on LinkedIn, 
Twitter, and Instagram and also 

26
00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,880
on YouTube and TikTok for video 
contents and support my work by 

27
00:01:34,960 --> 00:01:38,520
either buying me a coffee at 
techlyjunial dot Dev tip or 

28
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:41,840
becoming a patron at 
Techlyjunial dot Dev Patron. 

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00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,520
My guest for today's episode is 
Zachary White. 

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00:01:45,920 --> 00:01:48,760
Zach is a Career coach for 
Engineering Leadership. 

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And the host of the Happy 
Engineer podcast. 

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In this episode, Zach shared how
engineers can become happier in 

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their work and life through the 
Lifestyle Engineering approach. 

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He discussed what Lifestyle 
Engineering entails, such as 

35
00:02:01,780 --> 00:02:05,540
debunking the myth of work, life
balance, getting out of comfort 

36
00:02:05,540 --> 00:02:09,860
zone, mastering your mindset, 
building our own blueprint, and 

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00:02:09,860 --> 00:02:13,100
doing less. 
Zach also opened up and shared 

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00:02:13,100 --> 00:02:15,380
his personal story of getting 
burnt out. 

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00:02:15,840 --> 00:02:18,880
And gave great insights on how 
we can manage burnout before it 

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00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,120
happens. 
Towards the end, Zach explained 

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the importance of coaching for 
engineering leaders in order to 

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help reach their full potential.
I hope you enjoy listening to 

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00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,320
this episode and find some 
useful tips to become happier 

44
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,320
and avoid burnout. 
And if you do, please help share

45
00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:37,640
this episode with your 
colleagues, your friends and 

46
00:02:37,640 --> 00:02:40,960
communities and leave a 5 star 
rating and review on Apple 

47
00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:44,470
Podcasts and Spotify. 
It will help me a lot in getting

48
00:02:44,470 --> 00:02:48,110
more people discover and listen 
to this podcast and I really 

49
00:02:48,110 --> 00:02:50,750
appreciate it. 
So let's go to my conversation 

50
00:02:50,750 --> 00:02:53,510
with Zach after quick words from
our sponsor. 

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00:03:20,490 --> 00:03:23,010
Hello Zach, welcome to the 
Technijuno podcast show. 

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00:03:23,050 --> 00:03:24,330
It's really great to have you 
here. 

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I'm looking forward to discuss a
lot about making engineers happy

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in their jobs and in their 
lives. 

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So welcome to the show. 
Hey, it's such a pleasure to be 

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here, Henry. 
Thanks for having me. 

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And if we're not happy doing our
engineering, then what are we 

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doing it for? 
So I'm excited for the chat. 

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Let's dig in. 
Great question indeed. 

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So one thing that I saw in your 
profile in your website, you 

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brand yourself as the world's 
best lifestyle engineer. 

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But before we go there, I'm sure
you have some story in the past.

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I'd like to know and understand 
a lot more about your career 

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journey. 
Maybe if you can highlight 

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turning points or maybe some 
major highlights in your career 

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as well. 
Absolutely. 

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I started my career in 
mechanical engineering. 

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I graduated from Purdue back in 
2008. 

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Boiler Up had an amazing 
experience at Purdue and joined 

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Whirlpool Corporation in what 
was and still is Their top 

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00:04:17,100 --> 00:04:21,459
talent leadership development 
program is called World, the 

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Whirlpool Engineering Rotational
Leadership Development Program 

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00:04:25,340 --> 00:04:27,680
and I'm really honored by that 
opportunity. 

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Had the chance to do 6 month job
rotations for the first two 

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00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,400
years of my career. 
Lots of exposure around the 

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organization, great networking, 
great assignments, learned a ton

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in that time and then we're pull
paid for me to get my Master's 

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00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,920
in Mechanical Engineering at the
University of Michigan. 

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Continue developing and 
understanding global 

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manufacturing and some of the 
business acumen behind 

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engineering departments and what
we need to know from an 

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00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,640
economics perspective. 
And then just kept hustling. 

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Got into my career and did a 
variety of interesting roles 

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from test engineering in the lab
design engineering roles, 

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designing components for ovens 
for cooking products and laundry

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products and lots of different 
things that I did. 

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And of course one of my favorite
jobs was being a tech lead, 

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what's now called a system 
integrator. 

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At Whirlpool. 
They've changed the job title, 

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but in many ways that was the 
job that I felt I performed the 

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best. 
I mean, I really excelled in the

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role of tech lead and then moved
into management and had some 

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different roles in the 
management levels. 

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And then my last job before I 
left Whirlpool was actually in 

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brand and product marketing, 
which was a bit of a growth 

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experience to move out into that
space for KitchenAid products. 

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But Henry, to answer the 
question of turning points or 

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things that really stand out, we
could talk projects and roles 

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all day, but the actual thing 
that shaped my career experience

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was about six years after 
college, I experienced a deep 

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burnout. 
I came home from a work trip 

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expecting to walk in the door to
my wife and walked into an empty

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house. 
There was a note on the kitchen 

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00:06:03,130 --> 00:06:05,650
table said, hey, this isn't 
working. 

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I don't think we can stay 
married. 

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I want to get a divorce, and for
me that just put me into an 

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00:06:13,390 --> 00:06:17,190
absolute downward spiral in some
of the darkest times of my life 

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and ended up not only divorced, 
but depressed and embarrassed. 

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Just wondering, Henry, how did 
my life end up here? 

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You know, I thought everything 
was going so well and nobody at 

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work knew what I was going 
through. 

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I kept it a complete secret for 
a long, long time and just did 

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everything I could to stay above
water. 

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And it was recovering from that 
time of grief and the darkness 

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of that place that I fell to, 
where I made the discoveries 

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about how to approach my life 
and my lifestyle, my career, in 

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a whole different way. 
And after that time is when I 

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experienced my biggest success, 
my biggest rewards, the biggest 

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growth in my income, now happily
married. 

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And life's completely different 
on this side of that failure 

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than on the other side. 
And that's what became what you 

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alluded to earlier, we now call 
lifestyle engineering. 

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Thank you so much for sharing 
your personal story. 

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I'm sure that was a tough time 
when you went through that. 

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And maybe some engineers here 
are also going through the same 

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kind of situations. 
So hopefully they can learn 

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something from this episode 
later on. 

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So you mentioned lifestyle 
engineering. 

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I'm sure this is not just 
another major of engineering 

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kind of course, right? 
So tell us a little bit more 

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about what is lifestyle 
Engineering right. 

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So I got my ME degree from 
Purdue and the University of 

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00:07:37,070 --> 00:07:39,670
Michigan but my lifestyle 
engineering degree came from the

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00:07:39,670 --> 00:07:42,470
school of Hard Knocks at the 
street school, right? 

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And maybe first it helps to say 
what is lifestyle engineering 

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not and a lot of people and they
hear lifestyle, they start to 

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think about the four hour work 
week or the sort of digital 

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nomad life and being a world 
traveler and backpacking across 

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Europe or whatever, right. 
These cliche things that come 

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in. 
And while it certainly could be 

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that, that's not what my clients
or I focus on when we talk about

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lifestyle engineering. 
So think about it this way. 

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At its most core level, we want 
to get out of living our life by

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default and start living our 
life by design. 

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And so much of what happens to 
the average engineering leader 

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at all levels and from all over 
the world, people I've met and 

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talked to and coached, We just 
fall into these patterns and our

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00:08:34,580 --> 00:08:37,580
subconscious mind takes over. 
And we have these habits and we 

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have the conditioning that 
creates the reality that we 

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experience every day. 
And we start to believe things 

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00:08:43,740 --> 00:08:46,260
that aren't true about what's 
possible for our lives. 

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And you know, it's not that it's
even bad. 

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I suffered a deep burnout. 
But the real danger is that life

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can be pretty good, but it's not
the life that you want. 

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It's not the life that you would
choose. 

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And so lifestyle engineering is 
about taking the idea that we 

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00:09:02,420 --> 00:09:06,940
have within us a power to create
a different reality, to design 

166
00:09:06,940 --> 00:09:09,940
something different and to 
execute on it, Which is 

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00:09:09,940 --> 00:09:12,940
engineering at its core, right? 
Taking an idea, something in our

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00:09:12,940 --> 00:09:17,260
head, putting it on paper, 
designing that solution, coming 

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00:09:17,260 --> 00:09:19,380
up with the best possible 
strategy. 

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And then executing, producing it
right, distributing it to the 

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00:09:22,670 --> 00:09:24,910
world. 
Well, let's do that in our own 

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00:09:24,910 --> 00:09:26,910
lives. 
And it's amazing what's 

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possible. 
When you get in the driver's 

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seat, you become that engineer 
of your lifestyle. 

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And that's what we want to do, 
is actually start asking new 

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00:09:33,390 --> 00:09:36,590
questions, taking new actions 
and reaching that next level in 

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our career and in our life. 
I really love your description, 

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00:09:39,950 --> 00:09:41,750
right? 
We always live by default. 

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I mean most of the people, not 
just engineers I would say. 

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But we should live by design, 
right? 

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And the engineering part here is
basically designing the kind of 

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a life, the kind of lifestyle 
that you want and maybe the kind

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00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:53,680
of job that you want to do as 
well. 

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And I think one lessons that we 
learned from the pandemic as 

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well, many people went through 
the same situation, right? 

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They start questioning. 
What is Life is all about? 

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Do I love my job, You know, 
going through this pandemic? 

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00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,040
So I think thanks for bringing 
that up. 

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00:10:07,320 --> 00:10:10,840
I really like the description by
the way, and which also leads 

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00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,600
you to create your own podcast 
called the Happy Engineer 

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00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,880
Podcast. 
So tell us a little bit more, 

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00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,440
what is Happy Engineer Podcast? 
What it's all about? 

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00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:22,720
What can people learn from the 
guests that you bring or maybe 

194
00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,800
some of your solo episodes? 
Well, we joked about being a 

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00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,320
happy engineer at the beginning 
of this conversation, Henry, and

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00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,920
by no means am I someone who 
would say life is only about 

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00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,000
happiness and if you're not 
happy 24/7, something's wrong. 

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The whole spectrum of emotions 
is important, but what I have 

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00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:44,200
found is there are far too many.
In fact, if my numbers that I've

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00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:47,200
seen are accurate, it looks like
the majority of engineers who 

201
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,800
I've connected to and who I 
talked to, they don't find 

202
00:10:51,210 --> 00:10:56,290
happiness and passion and joy 
and enthusiasm for their work 

203
00:10:56,410 --> 00:10:59,090
anymore. 
We've gotten disconnected from 

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00:10:59,090 --> 00:11:04,010
the very thing that drew us into
the career in the 1st place, and

205
00:11:04,290 --> 00:11:06,890
it's easy to see why. 
You know, you get your first job

206
00:11:06,890 --> 00:11:09,130
and after a little while it's 
like, oh, there's all this 

207
00:11:09,210 --> 00:11:12,090
bureaucracy and the red tape and
all this paperwork and the 

208
00:11:12,130 --> 00:11:14,330
emails and the meetings and the 
stuff. 

209
00:11:14,330 --> 00:11:17,650
That's not the fun part that we 
really love and we don't get 

210
00:11:17,650 --> 00:11:21,640
taught how to navigate our 
careers, how to say no in the 

211
00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,560
right way, how to set 
boundaries, how to create a 

212
00:11:24,560 --> 00:11:27,160
career that we love. 
And next thing you know, you're 

213
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,840
just doing something that you 
ended up in instead of doing 

214
00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:32,600
that thing that you're deeply 
passionate about. 

215
00:11:32,600 --> 00:11:36,320
And so the Happy Engineer 
Podcast is a place where we have

216
00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,000
conversations around this 
challenge of lifestyle 

217
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,400
engineering. 
How do we create success at 

218
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:44,320
work? 
Get the promotions, get on the 

219
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,280
best projects, land the job at 
that dream company? 

220
00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:50,760
You've always wanted to make 
those things happen without 

221
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:56,080
making the sacrifices or the 
tradeoffs that often lead to the

222
00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:58,960
burnout or the dissatisfaction 
in our lives. 

223
00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,640
So for me, that was divorce. 
For other people, it might be a 

224
00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:04,640
health issue or something with 
your family in a different way. 

225
00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,080
Or maybe it's just a 
disconnection from your love of 

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00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,040
engineering so far that you just
want to get out of the industry 

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00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,370
entirely, Which is to me one of 
the saddest things that you 

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00:12:14,370 --> 00:12:17,370
have, the skill, you have the 
know how if somebody would pay 

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00:12:17,370 --> 00:12:19,930
you the same salary to deliver 
pizza, you would do that in a 

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heartbeat, right? 
It's like, well, that's a 

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tragedy and it says something 
about the industry and what's 

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happening. 
So that's what we talked about 

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on the Happy Engineer podcast. 
And wherever you're listening to

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00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:33,330
Tech Lead Journal, just jump 
over and subscribe And TuneIn, 

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00:12:33,330 --> 00:12:36,170
because I think, you know, this 
conversation coupled with that 

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one is a really powerful way to 
help accelerate your goals. 

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Right. 
We'll make sure to put that in 

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the show notes, definitely. 
But one thing I also go through 

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from my experience as well, 
sometimes it's not just the 

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intrinsic unhappiness that we 
have. 

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Sometimes it's also the 
environment, maybe the place 

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where you work at, the cultural 
thing, the leadership, the 

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targets and goals and engineers 
are well known to sometimes, you

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know, work overtime, right? 
So they are always cranking 

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code, fixing bugs, any kind of 
incidents. 

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So all this definitely adds a 
lot more burden into the kind of

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like happiness every engineer is
experiencing, right? 

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So I think make sure people you 
can follow Zach's podcast as 

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00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:18,600
well to learn more some tips and
tricks on how to become happier 

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00:13:18,880 --> 00:13:22,260
as an engineer. 
So let's dive deeper into the 

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Lifestyle Engineering itself. 
When I look at some materials 

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00:13:25,020 --> 00:13:27,660
that you share with me, there 
are a few key points in the 

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Lifestyle Engineering. 
Maybe let's go through one by 

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00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:32,540
one if you don't mind. 
So the first one is you said 

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that we should forget work life 
balance. 

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00:13:34,740 --> 00:13:38,060
This is maybe something strange 
for some people because some 

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00:13:38,060 --> 00:13:40,020
actually pursue work life 
balance. 

258
00:13:40,260 --> 00:13:42,460
But you say that we should 
forget about work life balance. 

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00:13:42,460 --> 00:13:45,420
Tell us more about it. 
When you say work life balance, 

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00:13:45,420 --> 00:13:47,660
what's the picture that pops 
into your mind? 

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00:13:48,670 --> 00:13:52,270
It's that picture of the on one 
side of the scale is work and on

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00:13:52,270 --> 00:13:57,190
the other side is life. 
And for me that model is flawed,

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00:13:57,710 --> 00:14:01,270
that mental model of the scale 
that pops in when we think about

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00:14:01,270 --> 00:14:03,550
work, life balance, like what is
the goal, Henry? 

265
00:14:03,550 --> 00:14:07,030
Is it to have them be the same? 
Is it like life is supposed to 

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00:14:07,030 --> 00:14:09,510
be heavier than work? 
Is it the opposite? 

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00:14:09,510 --> 00:14:11,630
Or we're just always trying to. 
Well, but wait a minute. 

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Isn't work part of your life? 
So, OK, well, maybe it's work 

269
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:16,720
and home. 
All right, cool. 

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00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,480
So work and home. 
Let's change it. 

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Well, still, are we trying to 
keep them balanced? 

272
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,000
Like if I work 8 hours, I should
be at home 8 hours. 

273
00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:26,800
Well, it's not about time. 
So what is it about? 

274
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,400
And the whole game of trying to 
create this mystical thing 

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00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,920
called balance among these two 
entities, It doesn't serve us. 

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00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:38,040
And here's what tends to happen.
Oh, I worked too hard last week.

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00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:41,240
I put in 80 hours. 
So this week I'm going to take a

278
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,240
vacation. 
OK, cool. 

279
00:14:43,240 --> 00:14:45,060
Well guess what? 
When you're done with your 

280
00:14:45,060 --> 00:14:46,740
vacation, you have to go back to
work. 

281
00:14:47,020 --> 00:14:48,420
So what are you going to do next
week? 

282
00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:51,340
Are you going to work 80 hours 
again and just volley back and 

283
00:14:51,340 --> 00:14:52,460
forth? 
We can't do that. 

284
00:14:52,860 --> 00:14:55,100
So OK, never mind. 
Let's do the perfect 40 hour 

285
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:56,940
week. 
Well guess what, Henry? 

286
00:14:56,940 --> 00:14:58,860
You and I both know in 
engineering you don't get to 

287
00:14:58,860 --> 00:15:02,260
choose a perfect forty hour week
every single week. 

288
00:15:02,260 --> 00:15:03,900
Some weeks are tougher than 
others. 

289
00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:09,140
So for me, the model is broken. 
Now the heart behind it is good.

290
00:15:09,140 --> 00:15:12,710
I don't mean to insult anybody 
who says we need better work 

291
00:15:12,710 --> 00:15:14,870
life balance. 
I understand what people mean, 

292
00:15:15,390 --> 00:15:19,190
but we need to be careful using 
that phrase because what it'll 

293
00:15:19,190 --> 00:15:23,790
lead to is a strategy that is 
flawed, works not going well. 

294
00:15:24,030 --> 00:15:27,150
So what? 
I need to live more? 

295
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:30,110
Well, then you end up with this 
situation where people try to 

296
00:15:30,110 --> 00:15:34,110
party on the weekends a little 
harder to make up for not liking

297
00:15:34,110 --> 00:15:37,990
their job, and that will never 
lead you to a deep fulfillment 

298
00:15:37,990 --> 00:15:39,990
and happiness in your life. 
It just won't. 

299
00:15:40,530 --> 00:15:43,570
What it does lead to is a sense 
of dread on Sunday afternoon 

300
00:15:43,570 --> 00:15:46,210
that you have to go back to work
tomorrow, and anybody who can 

301
00:15:46,210 --> 00:15:48,770
relate to that. 
This is the kind of thing it 

302
00:15:48,770 --> 00:15:52,410
leads to. 
So instead, we need to focus on 

303
00:15:52,410 --> 00:15:55,450
a sense of harmony and balance 
across your whole life. 

304
00:15:55,850 --> 00:16:00,450
You need to recognize that 
balance is an active term, not a

305
00:16:00,450 --> 00:16:03,810
destination that you land on and
stay there. 

306
00:16:04,290 --> 00:16:10,630
You're always in fluid motion of
creating balance across your 

307
00:16:10,630 --> 00:16:13,150
entire being, and one week 
you're going to be out of 

308
00:16:13,150 --> 00:16:15,750
balance because you worked a 
lot. 1 week you're going to be 

309
00:16:15,750 --> 00:16:17,990
out of balance because you're on
vacation, you didn't work at 

310
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:19,470
all. 
One week you'll be out of 

311
00:16:19,470 --> 00:16:21,630
balance because you're sick and 
you need to focus on your 

312
00:16:21,630 --> 00:16:23,310
health. 
One week you're going to be out 

313
00:16:23,310 --> 00:16:27,070
of balance because fill in the 
blank and it's a sense of 

314
00:16:27,070 --> 00:16:32,150
permission that there is no 
single perfect way to be every 

315
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:33,630
single week for the rest of your
life. 

316
00:16:34,110 --> 00:16:39,780
But you need to know for 
yourself what creates the 

317
00:16:39,780 --> 00:16:41,540
overall health and balance in my
life. 

318
00:16:41,540 --> 00:16:44,860
That I need to always have 
energy, to always be in a place 

319
00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:46,660
where I can honor my values and 
move toward my vision. 

320
00:16:46,660 --> 00:16:50,140
So that's why I say forget work 
life balance, because it's born 

321
00:16:50,140 --> 00:16:53,540
from a broken model and we need 
a new approach, a more advanced 

322
00:16:53,540 --> 00:16:56,900
strategy, if you will. 
I know some people try to find 

323
00:16:56,900 --> 00:16:59,700
the perfect formula for work 
life balance as well. 

324
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:02,860
They read blogs, read books, the
four hours work week. 

325
00:17:02,860 --> 00:17:04,420
I think that's pretty popular as
well. 

326
00:17:04,829 --> 00:17:07,310
So I think all these models 
definitely get people into 

327
00:17:07,310 --> 00:17:09,430
thinking that there is a sense 
of work life balance. 

328
00:17:09,670 --> 00:17:12,750
I personally also learn one 
model from my friend. 

329
00:17:12,950 --> 00:17:16,710
There is probably less balance 
in the everyday today life, but 

330
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:20,150
they are seasonal balance right?
So maybe you will cut this few 

331
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:22,790
months and then later on you 
probably slow down a little bit.

332
00:17:23,140 --> 00:17:25,660
So there are different models. 
What I'm trying to say is some 

333
00:17:25,660 --> 00:17:28,580
people actually might have 
different strategy and I think 

334
00:17:28,740 --> 00:17:31,780
instead of work life balance you
set in your sharing is that it 

335
00:17:31,780 --> 00:17:34,460
is a whole life balance, right? 
It's a whole life. 

336
00:17:34,460 --> 00:17:36,780
How do you design the kind of 
balance that you want? 

337
00:17:37,140 --> 00:17:40,300
So thank you for sharing this 
broken model and hopefully 

338
00:17:40,300 --> 00:17:41,940
people get to learn something 
new. 

339
00:17:42,500 --> 00:17:45,220
The next one that you said is 
actually to get out of comfort 

340
00:17:45,220 --> 00:17:47,540
zone. 
I think this is quite typical in

341
00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:50,900
many kind of a self help 
personal development stuff. 

342
00:17:51,310 --> 00:17:53,750
But tell us more, why is it 
important for engineers to get 

343
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:56,430
out of comfort zone and what 
kind of comfort zone that you 

344
00:17:56,430 --> 00:18:01,790
are referring to? 
There is no growth inside the 

345
00:18:01,790 --> 00:18:04,910
comfort zone. 
So let's start with that premise

346
00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:08,150
and if you don't believe that, 
then we need to ask some 

347
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:11,830
questions around how are we 
defining comfort zone and what's

348
00:18:11,830 --> 00:18:15,550
been your life experience. 
But what I'll tell you with 100%

349
00:18:15,550 --> 00:18:19,350
confidence is that if your life 
revolves around just doing the 

350
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:24,330
easy comfortable thing, you are 
not growing or exercising your 

351
00:18:24,330 --> 00:18:28,890
full potential as an engineering
leader, as an individual in 

352
00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:34,010
relationships in any area, and 
maybe as an example or metaphor 

353
00:18:34,050 --> 00:18:36,890
to help us connect the dots, 
It's very easy to see this in 

354
00:18:37,090 --> 00:18:41,050
working out going to the gym, 
you know, let's say today you're

355
00:18:41,050 --> 00:18:45,050
more than capable of doing 10 
reps of the bench press at £100.

356
00:18:45,410 --> 00:18:48,710
Just pick an easy example. 
Well, if all you ever do when 

357
00:18:48,710 --> 00:18:51,950
you go to the gym is 10 reps at 
100 pounds and that's it. 

358
00:18:52,430 --> 00:18:54,190
That's comfortable, that's easy,
That's known. 

359
00:18:54,190 --> 00:18:56,630
You can do it. 
It's well within your ability. 

360
00:18:57,070 --> 00:18:59,990
Will you ever get stronger? 
And I mean, of course not. 

361
00:19:00,070 --> 00:19:02,950
The answer is no, you will not 
strengthen the muscle if you 

362
00:19:02,950 --> 00:19:07,550
don't take it to a new limit. 
You know, do enough reps that 

363
00:19:07,550 --> 00:19:11,210
you get to fatigue or add more 
weight, do something to put more

364
00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:14,970
stress onto your body so that 
you will strengthen the muscles 

365
00:19:14,970 --> 00:19:18,930
and be capable of lifting more. 
And it's the same in 

366
00:19:18,930 --> 00:19:22,090
engineering. 
If you're staying inside your 

367
00:19:22,090 --> 00:19:25,290
comfort zone, whether that's a 
technology that's known or a 

368
00:19:25,290 --> 00:19:28,970
level of leadership in the 
organization that feels safe to 

369
00:19:28,970 --> 00:19:33,030
you, that feels easy to 
accomplish, you're not stepping 

370
00:19:33,030 --> 00:19:36,110
up and tackling bigger 
challenges or saying yes to that

371
00:19:36,110 --> 00:19:39,070
special assignment or taking a 
risk in the meeting asking that 

372
00:19:39,070 --> 00:19:41,070
question when you feel like you 
know. 

373
00:19:41,070 --> 00:19:44,390
Someone might perceive me as 
being ignorant or someone might 

374
00:19:44,390 --> 00:19:47,310
think I'm stupid if I ask this, 
but I need to ask the question. 

375
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:50,510
Those moments of getting out of 
your comfort zone is where the 

376
00:19:50,510 --> 00:19:52,670
muscles are built. 
You know the muscles of your 

377
00:19:52,670 --> 00:19:55,190
mind, the muscles of your 
emotional intelligence, all the 

378
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:58,870
things that it takes. 
So this, as a guiding principle 

379
00:19:58,870 --> 00:20:01,750
is for me non negotiable if 
you're never getting out of the 

380
00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:03,460
comfort zone. 
Then you're not growing. 

381
00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:07,180
And if you're not growing, odds 
are you're probably not happy. 

382
00:20:07,500 --> 00:20:11,460
Because growth and progress is 
one of the things that 

383
00:20:11,460 --> 00:20:15,940
consistently correlates to 
people saying I feel fulfilled, 

384
00:20:15,980 --> 00:20:19,820
I feel satisfied, I feel happy. 
And so just ask yourself, when 

385
00:20:19,820 --> 00:20:23,340
was the last time I really 
intentionally stepped out of my 

386
00:20:23,340 --> 00:20:26,020
comfort zone? 
Not was thrust there by my boss 

387
00:20:26,020 --> 00:20:27,580
or someone else outside by 
control. 

388
00:20:27,780 --> 00:20:32,460
But I chose to take a step into 
discomfort, into a challenge 

389
00:20:32,460 --> 00:20:35,260
bigger than I ever had before. 
And if you can't remember the 

390
00:20:35,260 --> 00:20:37,380
last time, then let's get 
started. 

391
00:20:37,540 --> 00:20:39,860
We got work to do. 
All right. 

392
00:20:40,660 --> 00:20:42,580
So, yeah, I think I love what 
you said, right. 

393
00:20:42,580 --> 00:20:45,700
There's no growth if you are 
always in your comfort zone, 

394
00:20:45,700 --> 00:20:47,180
right. 
I think the analogy of working 

395
00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:49,300
out is definitely very 
appropriate. 

396
00:20:49,380 --> 00:20:52,540
And in fact, you can only grow 
your muscles if you tear it, 

397
00:20:52,540 --> 00:20:54,260
right? 
So there must be some kind of a 

398
00:20:54,540 --> 00:20:57,300
healing process, with some 
recovery, of course. 

399
00:20:57,710 --> 00:20:59,070
And then you can grow the 
muscles. 

400
00:20:59,070 --> 00:21:01,230
So I think thanks for bringing 
that analogy up. 

401
00:21:01,390 --> 00:21:03,390
I like what you said, comfort 
zone, right? 

402
00:21:03,390 --> 00:21:06,470
Because some people may just go 
through their life, their work, 

403
00:21:06,550 --> 00:21:10,070
just day-to-day, not stepping 
up, maybe for some reasons, 

404
00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:11,670
right? 
But I think the comfort zone 

405
00:21:11,670 --> 00:21:14,430
here is also not referring to a 
danger zone, right, where you 

406
00:21:14,430 --> 00:21:17,710
step up to something that is 
really, really out of your depth

407
00:21:17,710 --> 00:21:21,030
or out of your leak, right. 
So maybe in your personal 

408
00:21:21,030 --> 00:21:24,790
coaching experience, what kind 
of comfort zone stepping up the 

409
00:21:24,790 --> 00:21:26,930
people? 
Tend to do for engineers. 

410
00:21:27,010 --> 00:21:29,210
Maybe if you can share for some 
people here who are still 

411
00:21:29,210 --> 00:21:32,730
thinking what kind of next level
that I should try because some 

412
00:21:32,730 --> 00:21:35,610
people may be confused like 
what's the next for them. 

413
00:21:37,330 --> 00:21:40,450
Well I'll give a couple common 
areas that I see people hold 

414
00:21:40,450 --> 00:21:42,810
back. 
One is around communication 

415
00:21:42,810 --> 00:21:46,970
skills. 
Many engineers need to focus on 

416
00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:50,610
developing communication skills 
in multiple forms. 

417
00:21:50,610 --> 00:21:53,960
One is your written 
communication, mastery of text 

418
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,320
and e-mail based communications 
or writing white papers or 

419
00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,360
publishing articles, these kinds
of things. 

420
00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,480
And then of course spoken verbal
communication, both one-on-one 

421
00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:08,120
to be able to have courageous 
conversations, especially up the

422
00:22:08,120 --> 00:22:11,560
career ladder, up the org chart.
So when you're having that 

423
00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:14,600
conversation with a more senior 
leader, do you have confidence 

424
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,640
and capability there? 
And then also with direct 

425
00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:20,320
reports, are you having those 
bold coaching conversations and 

426
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:23,780
holding people accountable and 
really again doing a great job 

427
00:22:23,780 --> 00:22:27,980
leading in Oneonones and then in
groups or how's your presenting 

428
00:22:27,980 --> 00:22:29,260
skills? 
How do you do from the front of 

429
00:22:29,260 --> 00:22:31,460
the room, How do you do in front
of 10 people? 

430
00:22:31,460 --> 00:22:33,180
How do you do in front of 100 
people? 

431
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:36,100
How would you do on stage in 
front of 1000 people? 

432
00:22:36,860 --> 00:22:39,900
And it's at that point most 
engineers, their palms start to 

433
00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:41,460
sweat. 
They get a little nervous and 

434
00:22:41,460 --> 00:22:43,140
think, wow, please don't put me 
on stage. 

435
00:22:43,140 --> 00:22:47,060
That sounds terrifying. 
Well, this one set of skills 

436
00:22:47,060 --> 00:22:50,710
around communication. 
If your goal is to have a high 

437
00:22:50,710 --> 00:22:54,150
degree of influence, a high 
income, to make it to the top of

438
00:22:54,150 --> 00:22:56,990
the career ladder, well, you're 
going to need to master some of 

439
00:22:56,990 --> 00:22:59,670
these skills. 
And so in order to do that, you 

440
00:22:59,670 --> 00:23:02,150
have to be willing to put 
yourself out of your comfort 

441
00:23:02,150 --> 00:23:04,310
zone. 
Go join Toastmasters, go 

442
00:23:04,310 --> 00:23:07,710
practice giving speeches, do the
things that it takes. 

443
00:23:08,030 --> 00:23:10,430
Put yourself into the 
environment where you might 

444
00:23:10,430 --> 00:23:12,910
fail. 
You might feel like that went 

445
00:23:12,910 --> 00:23:15,070
really terribly. 
You might get feedback that's 

446
00:23:15,430 --> 00:23:18,790
difficult to hear because you're
still learning, but anything 

447
00:23:18,790 --> 00:23:23,630
worth doing is worth doing 
poorly because you don't get to 

448
00:23:23,630 --> 00:23:26,070
mastery by jumping straight 
there. 

449
00:23:26,230 --> 00:23:29,070
And we know this as engineers, 
the first line of code you wrote

450
00:23:29,070 --> 00:23:31,030
was not your best line of code, 
OK? 

451
00:23:31,710 --> 00:23:34,430
It's the same in these other 
areas, so that's one example. 

452
00:23:34,750 --> 00:23:37,790
And then another one might be 
applying for promotions. 

453
00:23:38,150 --> 00:23:41,230
People feel like, well, I don't 
have the qualifications yet or I

454
00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:43,710
don't have enough years of 
experience yet. 

455
00:23:43,710 --> 00:23:46,870
I'm nervous that if I took that 
job, I might not succeed. 

456
00:23:47,420 --> 00:23:50,180
And you know, this is an area 
where, Henry, there isn't a 

457
00:23:50,180 --> 00:23:52,260
single right answer. 
But I'll just tell you, on the 

458
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:56,060
whole, most engineering leaders 
who I've coached wait longer 

459
00:23:56,060 --> 00:23:59,780
than is necessary to really 
pursue their growth in terms of 

460
00:23:59,780 --> 00:24:03,340
role and scope because they're 
afraid of failing if they move 

461
00:24:03,340 --> 00:24:06,660
up too quickly. 
And sure, it's possible to move 

462
00:24:06,660 --> 00:24:08,780
too quickly. 
And the Peter Principle, we hear

463
00:24:08,780 --> 00:24:10,380
about it and you get into a role
where you fail. 

464
00:24:10,380 --> 00:24:12,980
But guess what? 
Even if that happens to you, you

465
00:24:12,980 --> 00:24:15,700
can take a step back. 
You can start crushing it at the

466
00:24:15,700 --> 00:24:18,810
level where you are capable, 
keep learning and growing and go

467
00:24:18,810 --> 00:24:20,210
again. 
It's no different than the 

468
00:24:20,210 --> 00:24:22,490
communication side. 
Those are just a couple of 

469
00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:24,890
common areas I see it. 
We could list many more. 

470
00:24:25,210 --> 00:24:28,690
But I think the important thing 
is to ask yourself where am I 

471
00:24:28,690 --> 00:24:31,890
holding myself back? 
Is it in pursuit of new 

472
00:24:31,890 --> 00:24:34,570
technologies because I'm afraid 
I won't understand it or be 

473
00:24:34,570 --> 00:24:36,490
capable. 
Is it in some of these 

474
00:24:36,490 --> 00:24:39,050
leadership acumen areas where I 
need to build? 

475
00:24:39,250 --> 00:24:40,850
Or maybe it's in business 
knowledge? 

476
00:24:40,850 --> 00:24:43,090
I'm great at engineering, but I 
don't understand the business 

477
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:45,440
well. 
Whatever that thing is, go ask 

478
00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:48,040
yourself what's the first step? 
Where can I begin and start 

479
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,640
moving forward, because if we 
don't begin, we know where that 

480
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:52,400
leads. 
If nothing changes, that nothing

481
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:53,840
changes. 
So let's get started. 

482
00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,720
Find that area for yourself, get
the help you need, and get 

483
00:24:56,720 --> 00:24:58,770
going. 
Thank you for giving some 

484
00:24:58,770 --> 00:25:01,090
examples, so I hope people here 
get inspired. 

485
00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:03,650
So for me the key lessons that I
went through as well. 

486
00:25:03,650 --> 00:25:07,290
So it's not that you find the 
next perfect option, right? 

487
00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:10,170
Maybe your first try is 
something that you knew that you

488
00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:13,170
wanted, but after you gave it a 
try, maybe it doesn't work or it

489
00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:15,210
doesn't. 
Give you some happiness, right? 

490
00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:16,970
You can move on and try another 
one. 

491
00:25:17,170 --> 00:25:19,930
So the key here is again, not to
make it a perfect kind of a 

492
00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:22,610
formula, right? 
You can explore and give it a 

493
00:25:22,610 --> 00:25:24,370
try. 
Experiment, learn through 

494
00:25:24,370 --> 00:25:26,650
failures. 
And if you went through failures

495
00:25:26,650 --> 00:25:29,810
and you like it, I think that's 
where you hit the nice spot, 

496
00:25:29,810 --> 00:25:31,410
right? 
You can pursue even further. 

497
00:25:31,810 --> 00:25:34,490
So thanks for sharing this 
comfort zone and you know some 

498
00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:37,010
of the areas that engineers can 
step up their game. 

499
00:25:37,370 --> 00:25:40,210
So let's go to the third one, 
which is about mustering our 

500
00:25:40,210 --> 00:25:42,390
mindset. 
I've learned from some of my 

501
00:25:42,390 --> 00:25:45,230
guests, including Jeff Perry, 
which you know as well, right 

502
00:25:45,430 --> 00:25:48,470
Mindset is really important. 
So maybe tell us more in the 

503
00:25:48,470 --> 00:25:51,190
context of happy engineer, what 
kind of mindset here that we 

504
00:25:51,190 --> 00:25:54,870
should think about. 
Mindset is so important. 

505
00:25:55,190 --> 00:25:58,230
And for a lot of engineers, 
because we're so analytical, 

506
00:25:58,670 --> 00:26:00,990
we're so good in our 
intelligence. 

507
00:26:01,390 --> 00:26:04,310
We don't think of mindset as 
being a big gap. 

508
00:26:04,670 --> 00:26:08,660
But that actually then creates 
the very blind spot that derails

509
00:26:08,780 --> 00:26:11,940
our careers and our lives in so 
many ways because we are so 

510
00:26:11,940 --> 00:26:14,620
smart and I don't mean that 
facetiously. 

511
00:26:14,620 --> 00:26:18,580
Like, literally any engineer who
has a degree in any discipline 

512
00:26:18,580 --> 00:26:20,340
of engineering is incredibly 
smart. 

513
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:24,180
So when we talk about mindset, 
I'm not talking about your IQ, 

514
00:26:24,260 --> 00:26:26,940
okay. 
But here's the thing you need to

515
00:26:26,940 --> 00:26:30,860
know. 
Your mindset in this moment is 

516
00:26:30,860 --> 00:26:34,220
what's pouring the foundation 
for your future. 

517
00:26:34,670 --> 00:26:38,310
And if you don't strengthen and 
deepen the mindset that you 

518
00:26:38,310 --> 00:26:42,390
currently hold, then you're 
limiting how high you can go. 

519
00:26:42,830 --> 00:26:44,910
So what is mindset? 
What are we talking about? 

520
00:26:44,910 --> 00:26:50,310
Well, think about all of the 
beliefs that you hold, many of 

521
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:52,710
which are in your unconscious 
mind. 

522
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:54,950
You don't even think about these
things consciously. 

523
00:26:54,950 --> 00:26:57,470
They're just there. 
That's set of beliefs, don't 

524
00:26:57,470 --> 00:27:00,990
you, to imagine. 
It's like the walls of the box 

525
00:27:00,990 --> 00:27:03,860
that you're currently living 
inside of and it's not an 

526
00:27:03,860 --> 00:27:05,860
insult, but it's just the truth 
for all of us. 

527
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:09,620
Your current mindset is limiting
what's possible for you right 

528
00:27:09,620 --> 00:27:12,940
now and it's probably best seen 
through an example. 

529
00:27:12,940 --> 00:27:17,300
So let's say what I believe 
about myself, this actually came

530
00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:20,740
up today with a client. 
So an amazing gentleman. 

531
00:27:20,740 --> 00:27:24,220
He's very successful, he's had 
roles at Amazon, he's brilliant 

532
00:27:24,220 --> 00:27:26,700
in machine learning and AI, 
incredible engineer. 

533
00:27:26,700 --> 00:27:29,020
If you saw his resume, you'd 
think, wow, incredibly 

534
00:27:29,020 --> 00:27:31,060
successful. 
But today in our coaching 

535
00:27:31,060 --> 00:27:35,240
session with our group, he said 
I want to know how to overcome 

536
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,240
self sabotage. 
Because I continuously struggle 

537
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,400
with self sabotage and it's 
something that is a huge problem

538
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,080
for me and I've always and I 
continue to sabotage my success.

539
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:48,840
Okay. 
Well, on the surface when you 

540
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,320
hear that, you think, huh, 
that's interesting. 

541
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:52,720
So he's got some work to do 
around this idea of self 

542
00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,160
sabotage, but let's look at the 
words carefully. 

543
00:27:55,600 --> 00:28:01,400
He's claiming an identity that I
struggle with self sabotage. 

544
00:28:02,030 --> 00:28:03,350
That's a belief. 
That's a mindset. 

545
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:08,150
Well, until that mindset 
changes, it doesn't matter if I 

546
00:28:08,150 --> 00:28:12,750
give him a strategy or a tactic.
If what he believes is that I 

547
00:28:12,750 --> 00:28:16,070
struggle with self sabotage, 
then he will continue to 

548
00:28:16,070 --> 00:28:19,870
struggle with self sabotage for 
the rest of his life because the

549
00:28:19,870 --> 00:28:21,750
mindset is going to create the 
limit. 

550
00:28:22,150 --> 00:28:25,230
So the first thing we want to do
is go in and say, hey wait a 

551
00:28:25,230 --> 00:28:28,590
minute, is that true? 
And does that have to be true of

552
00:28:28,590 --> 00:28:32,800
you for the rest of your life? 
Or is it possible that you used 

553
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,720
to struggle with self sabotage, 
but that's starting. 

554
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:40,880
Today you are improving in your 
confidence and you are no longer

555
00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:44,320
sabotaging your success anymore.
In fact, you're getting better 

556
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,920
every single day. 
It's like, that's a whole new 

557
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,800
identity, that's a whole new 
belief system. 

558
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,240
And as you start to buy into 
that belief, it opens the door 

559
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,940
for new actions. 
And as we take new actions, we 

560
00:28:55,940 --> 00:28:58,580
start to get new results, and 
those new results reinforce a 

561
00:28:58,580 --> 00:29:00,540
new mindset. 
We start to get this upward 

562
00:29:00,780 --> 00:29:05,580
spiral of results in our life. 
So mindset is the foundation, 

563
00:29:05,780 --> 00:29:08,300
literally of all the coaching I 
do with engineering leaders. 

564
00:29:08,540 --> 00:29:12,540
It's at the foundation of it all
and it's very difficult to 

565
00:29:12,540 --> 00:29:15,660
master on your own. 
I highly, highly encourage 

566
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:18,060
anyone hearing this. 
If mindset is an area that you 

567
00:29:18,060 --> 00:29:22,890
want to explore, go work with a 
great coach because it's so hard

568
00:29:22,890 --> 00:29:27,450
to assess your own mindset 
because it is literally the cage

569
00:29:27,450 --> 00:29:30,250
that you're inside. 
And how are you going to read 

570
00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:33,410
the label on the outside of the 
bottle that you're stuck inside?

571
00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:35,850
You can't, right? 
You can't. 

572
00:29:35,850 --> 00:29:38,010
These are blind spots and it's 
called a blind spot for a 

573
00:29:38,010 --> 00:29:39,770
reason. 
For today, we'll just leave it 

574
00:29:39,770 --> 00:29:41,130
at that. 
It's so foundational. 

575
00:29:41,130 --> 00:29:43,410
It's so important and if you 
need help in this area, get it 

576
00:29:43,730 --> 00:29:47,010
and it will transform your life.
Thank you for sharing that 

577
00:29:47,010 --> 00:29:48,490
particular case with your 
clients. 

578
00:29:48,530 --> 00:29:51,090
I think some engineers might 
also have their own patterns, 

579
00:29:51,090 --> 00:29:53,370
right? 
They thought that they are not 

580
00:29:53,370 --> 00:29:55,250
good in something. 
And I think that's probably 

581
00:29:55,250 --> 00:29:57,890
sometimes the first thing is 
about limiting beliefs, what you

582
00:29:57,890 --> 00:29:59,330
say, right, The limiting 
mindset. 

583
00:29:59,650 --> 00:30:03,370
So anytime we want to level up 
ourselves, I think that's the 

584
00:30:03,370 --> 00:30:06,650
first thing we should also think
about because unconsciously we 

585
00:30:06,650 --> 00:30:10,370
may bring this from childhood 
past trauma experience, right? 

586
00:30:10,730 --> 00:30:13,770
And we always believe that that 
is ourselves, which is kind of 

587
00:30:13,770 --> 00:30:16,390
like limiting ourselves. 
But I think the 1st is the 

588
00:30:16,390 --> 00:30:19,870
self-awareness built that kind 
of awareness and maybe got help 

589
00:30:19,870 --> 00:30:22,590
from people right like coaches 
you mentioned because we 

590
00:30:22,590 --> 00:30:25,790
sometimes are blind to this kind
of limiting belief and 

591
00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:29,830
unconscious belief that we have.
So I think for people mindset is

592
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:32,150
really important. 
I personally also still not 

593
00:30:32,150 --> 00:30:33,830
perfect right? 
Still trying to figure out what 

594
00:30:33,830 --> 00:30:35,470
kind of limiting mindsets that I
have. 

595
00:30:35,860 --> 00:30:39,140
Having someone to support you 
and guide you is probably one 

596
00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:42,180
good thing that we can pursue. 
Let's go to the next one, which 

597
00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:44,740
is building our own blueprint, 
right. 

598
00:30:44,740 --> 00:30:47,300
This is maybe some kind of the 
engineering part here. 

599
00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:49,940
So tell us more what kind of 
blueprint that you are referring

600
00:30:49,940 --> 00:30:51,660
to? 
Is there any kind of framework 

601
00:30:51,660 --> 00:30:54,780
that you advocate to people? 
Absolutely. 

602
00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:59,500
And of course, being an 
engineer, it helps to coach in a

603
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:01,900
way that aligns with my 
engineering mind. 

604
00:31:01,900 --> 00:31:04,860
And of course, that's why 
engineering clients enjoy this 

605
00:31:04,860 --> 00:31:08,180
process, because we think in 
systems, we think in design 

606
00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:10,380
terminology. 
We think in these ideas that we 

607
00:31:10,380 --> 00:31:13,020
live all day at work. 
And so the Lifestyle Engineering

608
00:31:13,020 --> 00:31:16,700
Blueprint is the methodology. 
It is the system that we use to 

609
00:31:16,700 --> 00:31:18,620
go create the results that we 
want. 

610
00:31:18,820 --> 00:31:22,660
So the blueprint consists of 
that foundation of our mindset. 

611
00:31:22,660 --> 00:31:24,380
You can just picture a little 
house, right? 

612
00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:27,540
The foundation of the house is 
your mindset. 

613
00:31:27,860 --> 00:31:30,620
And then what's built on top of 
that are 4 pillars. 

614
00:31:31,190 --> 00:31:33,870
You can think of these four 
cornerstones of the house, and 

615
00:31:34,030 --> 00:31:38,190
that's your purpose, your 
priority, your productivity and 

616
00:31:38,190 --> 00:31:41,790
the people around you. 
And then the roof of that house,

617
00:31:41,790 --> 00:31:45,710
What ties it all together is 
what I call your playbook. 

618
00:31:46,230 --> 00:31:50,350
So you could think of mindset as
this foundational piece we need 

619
00:31:50,350 --> 00:31:52,430
to strengthen. 
And if we don't, it's going to 

620
00:31:52,430 --> 00:31:56,710
limit us in our growth period. 
The four pillars represent maybe

621
00:31:56,710 --> 00:31:59,870
the strategies or the skill 
sets, the tools that we need, 

622
00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:02,860
and literally every single 
barrier that you'll face in your

623
00:32:02,860 --> 00:32:05,060
career lands in one of these 
four pillars. 

624
00:32:05,460 --> 00:32:08,940
It's either a purpose problem, a
priority problem, a productivity

625
00:32:08,940 --> 00:32:12,020
problem, or a people problem. 
There's not a problem you'll 

626
00:32:12,020 --> 00:32:14,820
ever face in your career that 
doesn't land in one or more of 

627
00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:18,140
these four pillars. 
But, and this is a huge but, 

628
00:32:18,140 --> 00:32:23,140
Henry, strategies, tactics and 
tools, you could almost 

629
00:32:23,380 --> 00:32:27,900
categorize this as the knowledge
of what to do and how to do. 

630
00:32:27,900 --> 00:32:33,590
It is worthless without action. 
If you know what to do and never

631
00:32:33,590 --> 00:32:35,910
do it, duh, you're not going to 
get results. 

632
00:32:35,910 --> 00:32:39,630
So the playbook, the roof, what 
ties us all together is all 

633
00:32:39,630 --> 00:32:42,350
about action. 
It's making sure that you're 

634
00:32:42,350 --> 00:32:46,110
stepping into the arena of your 
life every day, getting out of 

635
00:32:46,110 --> 00:32:49,750
the comfort zone like we talked 
about already and you're taking 

636
00:32:49,870 --> 00:32:51,470
action. 
And when you put all that 

637
00:32:51,470 --> 00:32:55,630
together, that's where we create
this incredible acceleration of 

638
00:32:55,630 --> 00:32:57,350
the career and life of your 
dreams. 

639
00:32:57,940 --> 00:33:00,580
Because you have the right 
thinking, you have the right 

640
00:33:00,580 --> 00:33:03,220
strategies, and you're taking 
action every day. 

641
00:33:04,100 --> 00:33:07,180
I think that's really true for 
some people, I myself included, 

642
00:33:07,180 --> 00:33:09,340
right? 
So sometimes we try to learn so 

643
00:33:09,340 --> 00:33:11,700
many hacks, so many tricks, 
strategies, right? 

644
00:33:12,020 --> 00:33:15,060
But we just keep learning in the
pursuit of finding the best one,

645
00:33:15,260 --> 00:33:17,780
probably. 
And sometimes the reminder here 

646
00:33:17,780 --> 00:33:20,300
is just take action, right? 
Create a playbook, create an 

647
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,300
experiment, take action. 
Because you will never learn. 

648
00:33:23,650 --> 00:33:26,450
If you don't give it a try, you 
can read hundreds of books, but 

649
00:33:26,450 --> 00:33:28,810
in the end it will never come up
to something right? 

650
00:33:28,810 --> 00:33:31,210
So thanks for sharing this. 
And that was me, Henry. 

651
00:33:31,490 --> 00:33:34,450
I read all the books, man. 
I was hungry for knowledge my 

652
00:33:34,450 --> 00:33:37,290
whole career, and I made mistake
after mistake after mistake 

653
00:33:37,290 --> 00:33:40,010
because I didn't apply what I 
knew and so I'm guilty. 

654
00:33:40,050 --> 00:33:41,570
I'm not saying this because I'm 
perfect. 

655
00:33:41,610 --> 00:33:43,730
I did exactly what you just 
said. 

656
00:33:43,730 --> 00:33:45,970
And so Amen, brother. 
You're exactly right. 

657
00:33:46,770 --> 00:33:48,970
Right. 
And I like the five piece thing.

658
00:33:48,970 --> 00:33:50,850
Let me repeat one more time the 
purpose. 

659
00:33:51,210 --> 00:33:54,810
The priority, the productivity, 
the people and the last one is 

660
00:33:54,810 --> 00:33:57,730
come up with a playbook, right. 
So I think for people you can 

661
00:33:57,730 --> 00:33:59,970
use this blueprint. 
So maybe think for each of those

662
00:33:59,970 --> 00:34:03,650
P what is exactly that you want 
to pursue for that P, right. 

663
00:34:03,650 --> 00:34:06,410
And then maybe you create some 
kind of playbook and take 

664
00:34:06,410 --> 00:34:09,130
actions from that on. 
So I think that's really 

665
00:34:09,130 --> 00:34:11,690
interesting blueprint. 
And the last one here in the 

666
00:34:11,690 --> 00:34:14,650
lifestyle engineering, which I 
think some people would also 

667
00:34:14,650 --> 00:34:19,050
allude to productivity hacks, 
which is do less, tell us more 

668
00:34:19,050 --> 00:34:21,790
why doing less means. 
Happier engineer. 

669
00:34:22,710 --> 00:34:27,230
Diluted focus creates diluted 
results. 

670
00:34:27,670 --> 00:34:32,909
If you are the kind of person, 
like most engineers, who loves 

671
00:34:32,909 --> 00:34:36,830
to just say yes and tackle more 
and keep expanding. 

672
00:34:36,830 --> 00:34:39,190
And things are adding, adding, 
adding, adding. 

673
00:34:39,190 --> 00:34:42,350
And we're never subtracting. 
We're never focusing your 

674
00:34:42,350 --> 00:34:45,830
limited, precious assets of time
and energy. 

675
00:34:46,150 --> 00:34:49,510
These are the only two resources
in your life that are truly 

676
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:52,010
limited. 
You can get more money, you can 

677
00:34:52,010 --> 00:34:55,330
build more relationships. 
You can always get more of every

678
00:34:55,330 --> 00:34:57,730
other resource. 
It doesn't make it easy to get, 

679
00:34:57,730 --> 00:35:01,650
but it's always there. 
The two that are not ever going 

680
00:35:01,650 --> 00:35:05,010
to expand beyond a limit are 
your time and your energy. 

681
00:35:05,010 --> 00:35:08,530
And so when you're doing more 
and more and more, you're taking

682
00:35:08,530 --> 00:35:12,250
those resources that we use to 
create results and you're 

683
00:35:12,250 --> 00:35:16,170
diluting them across so many 
things that nothing actually 

684
00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:20,010
builds the momentum to succeed. 
And the picture that I I think 

685
00:35:20,010 --> 00:35:24,210
sets the stage for this really 
clearly is take an airplane and 

686
00:35:24,210 --> 00:35:26,810
when you want to take off, when 
you want to get off the runway, 

687
00:35:27,210 --> 00:35:30,330
you go full throttle. 
Well, if you put two airplanes 

688
00:35:30,330 --> 00:35:34,330
side by side on the runway and 
they're both at half throttle, 

689
00:35:34,650 --> 00:35:37,690
guess what happens? 
They both crash at the end of 

690
00:35:37,690 --> 00:35:41,570
the runway, OK. 
So we live our lives in this 

691
00:35:41,570 --> 00:35:46,930
fashion where we're trying to 
keep all these things going, but

692
00:35:47,420 --> 00:35:51,140
you've got 10 things getting 10%
of your energy and then none of 

693
00:35:51,140 --> 00:35:54,940
them ever get off the ground. 
So lifestyle engineering, part 

694
00:35:54,940 --> 00:35:58,380
of how we create these 
differentiated results is by 

695
00:35:58,380 --> 00:36:03,500
concentrating energy into the 
most important priorities to the

696
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:06,540
point of these five P's to make 
sure that they get off the 

697
00:36:06,540 --> 00:36:09,420
ground. 
Once it's at cruising altitude, 

698
00:36:09,660 --> 00:36:11,140
yeah, you can bring the throttle
down. 

699
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:13,940
It's not that you have to be 
full throttle on everything all 

700
00:36:13,940 --> 00:36:18,760
the time, but doing less is 
about focusing on what matters 

701
00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,800
most, giving that the vast 
majority of your energy until 

702
00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,040
you get the result that you 
need. 

703
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:26,680
Then we can back off and do the 
next thing. 

704
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,160
This is hard to do less, and 
then be obsessive about getting 

705
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,840
that thing going because it's 
fun to do a lot and everybody in

706
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:37,880
your life wants you to do a lot.
There's always more people 

707
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,880
asking you for your time and 
energy, so it requires saying 

708
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,840
no. 
It requires setting boundaries, 

709
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,400
but I promise you you'll get 
faster results on the things 

710
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,640
that matter most if you'll have 
the courage to do less. 

711
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:51,960
And especially in technology, 
right? 

712
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:53,640
This is something that is 
tricky. 

713
00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:57,680
We have so many new 
technologies, new advancements, 

714
00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,640
you know, disruptions here and 
there, right? 

715
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:03,440
Maybe today's AI, which is a 
craze in everywhere, maybe next 

716
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:05,960
is VR, right? 
Previously is blockchain and 

717
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:08,040
things like that. 
But I think you need to stay 

718
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,210
focused on some things, right? 
If everything is important that 

719
00:37:11,210 --> 00:37:13,330
you want to pursue, nothing is 
important for sure. 

720
00:37:13,330 --> 00:37:16,730
There's the great quote about 
that, and I think to come up 

721
00:37:16,730 --> 00:37:19,370
with the focus is also something
that is a struggle for some 

722
00:37:19,370 --> 00:37:22,450
people because you know, in the 
era of Internet, social media, 

723
00:37:22,570 --> 00:37:25,650
news and also maybe a lot of 
entertainments, right? 

724
00:37:26,010 --> 00:37:30,170
So we really cannot be spending 
our time and energy equally to 

725
00:37:30,170 --> 00:37:32,330
all these things. 
So you need to really keep 

726
00:37:32,330 --> 00:37:34,850
focus. 
And again, like it's not gonna 

727
00:37:34,850 --> 00:37:37,530
be like 100% always successful, 
right? 

728
00:37:37,530 --> 00:37:39,970
You set a focus on some things 
that you really, really gonna 

729
00:37:39,970 --> 00:37:42,290
like, right. 
Sometimes you find that it is 

730
00:37:42,290 --> 00:37:43,970
not the area that you wanna 
focus on. 

731
00:37:44,250 --> 00:37:46,050
You can then move on. 
I think that's right. 

732
00:37:46,290 --> 00:37:48,890
The key here again, coming back 
to your blueprint, what are your

733
00:37:48,890 --> 00:37:50,970
five piece? 
And then follow along from 

734
00:37:50,970 --> 00:37:52,810
there. 
So thank you so much for this. 

735
00:37:52,810 --> 00:37:56,810
Do less reminder for people who 
tend to do a lot more, right. 

736
00:37:56,890 --> 00:38:00,850
Maybe think step back a little 
bit and try to prioritize what 

737
00:38:00,850 --> 00:38:03,450
are the most important things. 
So in the beginning you 

738
00:38:03,450 --> 00:38:05,530
mentioned about the burnout that
you went through. 

739
00:38:05,530 --> 00:38:08,690
So if you don't mind, maybe if 
we can discuss a little bit more

740
00:38:08,690 --> 00:38:11,530
about that particular 
experience, because many people,

741
00:38:11,530 --> 00:38:14,850
I would say not just engineers, 
feel burnout in their life or 

742
00:38:14,850 --> 00:38:17,730
their work. 
So in the 1st place, maybe let's

743
00:38:17,770 --> 00:38:20,810
qualify what is burnout for some
people who are confused what 

744
00:38:20,890 --> 00:38:23,930
burnout is because it keeps 
getting mentioned in many, many 

745
00:38:23,930 --> 00:38:25,970
resources. 
But what's your definition of 

746
00:38:25,970 --> 00:38:28,090
burnout? 
And what are actually some of 

747
00:38:28,090 --> 00:38:32,230
the real causes of burnout? 
Yeah, it's a really important 

748
00:38:32,230 --> 00:38:34,630
question because you're right, 
the term burnout is thrown 

749
00:38:34,630 --> 00:38:37,990
around a lot, a lot more now 
than it used to be. 

750
00:38:37,990 --> 00:38:41,790
And it will show up in different
ways for different people. 

751
00:38:41,790 --> 00:38:46,190
But if I go to the most 
important principle around 

752
00:38:46,190 --> 00:38:48,830
burnout that I have found, 
that's consistent with every 

753
00:38:48,830 --> 00:38:51,950
client I've ever had, who says, 
you know, I'm burned out? 

754
00:38:51,950 --> 00:38:54,750
And if I look at my own 
experience of burnout, burnout 

755
00:38:54,750 --> 00:38:59,310
is not just that moment when you
hit rock bottom, when the tank 

756
00:38:59,350 --> 00:39:01,630
is empty. 
You know, even just the phrase 

757
00:39:01,630 --> 00:39:03,830
burnout, we think about fuel in 
a tank, right? 

758
00:39:03,830 --> 00:39:05,550
There's just maybe it's an 
airplane, whatever it is. 

759
00:39:05,870 --> 00:39:09,070
Well, when the tank is empty, 
yes, you're burned out. 

760
00:39:09,070 --> 00:39:12,710
But that's not the only thing 
that matters. 

761
00:39:12,990 --> 00:39:18,710
Burnout actually begins in your 
life the moment that you start 

762
00:39:18,710 --> 00:39:22,150
burning fuel faster than you're 
filling the tank. 

763
00:39:22,630 --> 00:39:26,810
When you're running an energy 
deficit, right, when you're 

764
00:39:26,810 --> 00:39:28,930
running a happiness deficit, 
when you're running a 

765
00:39:28,930 --> 00:39:31,850
relationship deficit, when 
you're running a career deficit 

766
00:39:32,170 --> 00:39:36,450
day in and day out, even if it's
small, you're on the road to 

767
00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:38,930
burnout. 
And it's only a matter of time 

768
00:39:38,930 --> 00:39:42,490
before it manifests in one of 
these ways that we talk about 

769
00:39:42,490 --> 00:39:45,570
publicly. 
You know, so and so had a health

770
00:39:45,570 --> 00:39:46,810
issue. 
They literally are in the 

771
00:39:46,810 --> 00:39:50,610
hospital because of an anxiety 
attack or a stress related heart

772
00:39:50,610 --> 00:39:54,690
condition or ulcers or you know,
for me it was ending in divorce.

773
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:58,840
For other people, it might be 
your performance suffers because

774
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,480
you're working so many hours 
that now you're delivering bad 

775
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:05,040
work and suddenly you get a bad 
performance review and that 

776
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,560
throws you into a fear loop that
now you can't do your best work 

777
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,360
at all and you get fired. 
These are the stories that make 

778
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,480
the LinkedIn headlines, but we 
need to back it up and recognize

779
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:21,120
that began for that person well 
before the health issue. 

780
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:25,680
Well, before getting let go for 
performance related issues, it 

781
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,840
starts when your tank is being 
emptied faster than you're 

782
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,760
filling it. 
And so if you want to avoid 

783
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,880
burnout, if you want to make 
sure that never happens to you, 

784
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,680
that we need to pay attention 
every day, every week, every 

785
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:44,120
quarter, every year, how am I 
doing on filling that tank for 

786
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,160
myself and you? 
And that can be a lot of 

787
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:49,000
different things. 
It's not just hours at work, 

788
00:40:49,700 --> 00:40:52,220
it's looking at your whole life 
back to our conversation from 

789
00:40:52,220 --> 00:40:54,940
whole life balance earlier. 
But that's what I think of when 

790
00:40:54,940 --> 00:40:58,580
I think of burnout is to say, 
all right, how are you doing on 

791
00:40:58,580 --> 00:41:01,220
managing your energy across your
whole life? 

792
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:04,140
And are you burning fuel faster 
than you're filling the tank? 

793
00:41:04,980 --> 00:41:06,620
I think that's completely true, 
right? 

794
00:41:06,620 --> 00:41:09,180
I personally went through a 
burnout experience as well and 

795
00:41:09,180 --> 00:41:12,140
it started way before you crash 
maybe. 

796
00:41:12,140 --> 00:41:15,820
Let's put that analogy. 
So it always started far before 

797
00:41:15,980 --> 00:41:19,100
and it's just a frustration that
keeps building up, building up 

798
00:41:19,140 --> 00:41:21,020
and it's deficit like you 
mentioned, right. 

799
00:41:21,220 --> 00:41:24,980
So if you never take notice and 
put something, some actions to 

800
00:41:24,980 --> 00:41:29,100
fill in the tank, I think that's
going to Spire down easily and 

801
00:41:29,100 --> 00:41:31,940
faster than you may think of. 
And I think one thing that I 

802
00:41:31,940 --> 00:41:34,780
experienced once you went 
through this burnout, right. 

803
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:37,300
It's really, really hard to get 
back up that quickly. 

804
00:41:37,780 --> 00:41:41,100
So I think that is something 
that we also have to understand,

805
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:43,260
right. 
So don't let yourself fall 

806
00:41:43,260 --> 00:41:45,860
beyond the burnout threshold 
because when it happened, it's 

807
00:41:45,940 --> 00:41:49,820
really, really hard to recover 
and you may need to take time to

808
00:41:49,820 --> 00:41:52,860
actually recover. 
So I like also another thing 

809
00:41:52,860 --> 00:41:55,660
that you mentioned in your 
sharing about burnout, right? 

810
00:41:55,780 --> 00:42:00,420
You said burnout is accelerated 
by what we are doing, but 

811
00:42:00,420 --> 00:42:04,060
burnout is caused by what we are
not doing. 

812
00:42:04,620 --> 00:42:07,500
So tell us more little bit about
this because I find it really, 

813
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:12,020
really insightful. 
Yes, well, the most obvious 

814
00:42:12,020 --> 00:42:15,140
example is people will talk 
about working long hours. 

815
00:42:15,420 --> 00:42:19,820
Burning the candle on both ends 
is a phrase We'll use this idea 

816
00:42:19,820 --> 00:42:23,860
of time. 
But the fact is you can work a 

817
00:42:23,860 --> 00:42:26,740
lot of hours and not burn out. 
How is that possible? 

818
00:42:26,740 --> 00:42:29,660
If anybody can do it, then we 
have to look more carefully 

819
00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:32,300
about, well, OK, is it really 
about time and how much we're 

820
00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:34,550
doing? 
And what I've found is I've 

821
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:36,710
worked with now hundreds of 
engineering leaders who've gone 

822
00:42:36,710 --> 00:42:40,670
through these challenges and 
part of why burnout is such a 

823
00:42:40,670 --> 00:42:43,190
sneaky thing. 
Like you and I both said, it 

824
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:46,070
started way before we actually 
crashed and burned. 

825
00:42:46,270 --> 00:42:49,590
So why didn't we notice? 
Why didn't we catch it years 

826
00:42:49,590 --> 00:42:52,750
before it actually happened? 
I can look back now and say, 

827
00:42:52,750 --> 00:42:55,230
gosh, you know, that pattern in 
my life started two or three 

828
00:42:55,230 --> 00:42:58,470
years before I actually got 
divorced and hit rock bottom. 

829
00:42:58,830 --> 00:43:02,270
Why did I miss it? 
And the reason we miss it is 

830
00:43:02,270 --> 00:43:05,590
because we only look at those 
things that we are doing. 

831
00:43:05,870 --> 00:43:09,670
Am I working too many hours? 
Am I hanging out with people who

832
00:43:09,670 --> 00:43:12,910
are toxic? 
Do I have a bad environment at 

833
00:43:12,910 --> 00:43:14,950
work that I need to try to deal 
with? 

834
00:43:15,390 --> 00:43:20,030
We look at what's present, but 
the primary cause of burnout is 

835
00:43:20,030 --> 00:43:24,150
what's missing. 
And that's why it's so easy to 

836
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:26,510
fall victim to this. 
It's what's missing. 

837
00:43:26,510 --> 00:43:27,710
So what do I mean? 
Let me give you a couple 

838
00:43:27,710 --> 00:43:30,300
examples. 
When stress gets dialed up on 

839
00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:33,620
your project at work as a tech 
lead, what are some of the first

840
00:43:33,620 --> 00:43:36,460
things that happen in your life?
Well, you stop hanging out with 

841
00:43:36,460 --> 00:43:38,780
your friends as much because 
you're working long hours. 

842
00:43:39,260 --> 00:43:42,100
Maybe you don't sleep as many 
hours every night because you're

843
00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:44,740
staying up an extra hour or two 
to check your e-mail. 

844
00:43:44,740 --> 00:43:47,300
Or finish that PowerPoint that 
needs to be ready for the 

845
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,100
presentation tomorrow. 
Or write those lines of code 

846
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:52,260
that you had a solution. 
You were that close, but you 

847
00:43:52,260 --> 00:43:53,860
didn't quite get it before you 
left the office. 

848
00:43:53,860 --> 00:43:55,900
You're gonna log back in at 
10:00 PM. 

849
00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:58,340
And you thought it would be one 
hour, but then it's midnight, 

850
00:43:58,340 --> 00:44:00,700
and then it's 1:00 AM, and then 
it's 2:00 AM and you're still 

851
00:44:00,700 --> 00:44:02,060
working. 
And then you don't sleep well 

852
00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:04,940
because you are on the computer 
and your body's not ready for 

853
00:44:04,940 --> 00:44:06,700
sleep. 
Oh, and by the way, now you're 

854
00:44:06,700 --> 00:44:09,580
traveling more for work, and 
you're not eating healthy foods,

855
00:44:09,660 --> 00:44:10,700
right? 
So you're not paying attention 

856
00:44:10,700 --> 00:44:13,380
to your nutrition. 
And just little by little, we 

857
00:44:13,380 --> 00:44:18,660
stopped doing all of the things 
that keep us happy, healthy and 

858
00:44:18,660 --> 00:44:20,640
balanced. 
And so then we start looking at 

859
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:22,480
what we are doing. 
We're trying to find out, like, 

860
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,240
which one of these things that 
I'm doing is making me feel the 

861
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:26,840
way I'm feeling and causing this
burnout. 

862
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,200
But the truth is, it's not any 
one of those that's the problem.

863
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:34,120
It's what's missing from your 
life that you were doing that 

864
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,640
was keeping you in that energy 
surplus. 

865
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:42,360
And so if you want to assess 
where am I at first, it's asking

866
00:44:42,360 --> 00:44:45,160
that question, how am I doing in
my energy and my whole life? 

867
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,600
Is it a daily deficit or daily 
surplus? 

868
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:51,720
And then instead of just asking,
well what's on my calendar that 

869
00:44:51,720 --> 00:44:55,560
might be making me feel a 
certain way, ask yourself what 

870
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:59,440
do I know I should be doing but 
I'm not? 

871
00:44:59,880 --> 00:45:03,520
What are those things that keep 
me healthy that I'm not doing? 

872
00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:05,800
What are those things that help 
me stay in positive 

873
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,000
relationships that I've stopped 
doing? 

874
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,480
What are those things that fill 
my cup, fill my tank, that I'm 

875
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:14,280
no longer giving myself time for
in self-care? 

876
00:45:14,860 --> 00:45:18,060
Focus on bringing those things 
back into your life as soon as 

877
00:45:18,060 --> 00:45:21,580
possible, because if you don't, 
you're going to end up in this 

878
00:45:21,580 --> 00:45:23,900
downward spiral and what most 
people experiences. 

879
00:45:23,900 --> 00:45:27,260
There's a point of no return 
where even if you realize I'm 

880
00:45:27,260 --> 00:45:30,260
burning out now, you're going to
hit rock bottom because you 

881
00:45:30,260 --> 00:45:33,660
can't pull up that fast and it's
usually too late. 

882
00:45:33,820 --> 00:45:36,910
And that's a hard place to be. 
Very great reminder. 

883
00:45:36,910 --> 00:45:39,990
So I think you are right. 
Looking back also it's something

884
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:41,990
that I completely not doing 
right. 

885
00:45:41,990 --> 00:45:46,310
So for example, is it exercise? 
Enough rest, hobbies, right? 

886
00:45:46,310 --> 00:45:49,630
What you used to love doing? 
Maybe you stop doing because you

887
00:45:49,630 --> 00:45:53,310
put effort in something else. 
Relationships also, like friends

888
00:45:53,310 --> 00:45:55,350
meeting friends, spending 
quality time. 

889
00:45:55,820 --> 00:45:58,260
So I think all this is something
that definitely you stopped 

890
00:45:58,260 --> 00:46:00,780
doing or you missed doing but 
you didn't realize it. 

891
00:46:01,100 --> 00:46:04,060
So maybe you can use some kind 
of, I don't know, reflection 

892
00:46:04,060 --> 00:46:07,060
from time to time right? 
To look back and ask this 

893
00:46:07,060 --> 00:46:09,740
question, Is there something 
that I should be doing but I'm 

894
00:46:09,740 --> 00:46:11,860
not doing so? 
I really love that question as 

895
00:46:11,860 --> 00:46:15,170
well for a reflection. 
So now you are you said you are 

896
00:46:15,610 --> 00:46:18,130
coaching a lot of engineering 
leaders, right? 

897
00:46:18,290 --> 00:46:21,930
I think in some parts of the 
world I would say coaching, 

898
00:46:21,970 --> 00:46:25,170
finding coach for engineering 
managers or engineering leaders 

899
00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:28,050
or even tech leads right are not
quite common. 

900
00:46:28,610 --> 00:46:32,410
So tell us more why every 
engineering leaders or as 

901
00:46:32,410 --> 00:46:36,170
someone who go through an upper 
level of engineering they need 

902
00:46:36,170 --> 00:46:38,170
coaches. 
So maybe tell us what's the 

903
00:46:38,170 --> 00:46:42,090
reason behind that? 
Well, first of all, coaches for 

904
00:46:42,090 --> 00:46:45,050
engineers are uncommon no matter
where you live. 

905
00:46:45,490 --> 00:46:47,810
It's the truth. 
Maybe it's worse some places 

906
00:46:47,810 --> 00:46:50,370
than others, but it is 
definitely uncommon. 

907
00:46:50,370 --> 00:46:54,130
And also, let's be clear when I 
say engineering leaders, it's 

908
00:46:54,130 --> 00:46:57,010
not about a certain title or 
level in the organization. 

909
00:46:57,530 --> 00:47:00,970
Many of my clients are right out
of college and in their first 

910
00:47:01,050 --> 00:47:04,970
individual contributor job, but 
they recognize that they want to

911
00:47:04,970 --> 00:47:08,650
be leaders even if they plan to 
stay Ic's. 

912
00:47:09,110 --> 00:47:11,630
So it's not about how big is 
your team or being a manager or 

913
00:47:11,630 --> 00:47:14,950
a director. 
It's about a mindset of a desire

914
00:47:14,950 --> 00:47:17,750
for growth and influence. 
And if that's you, then you're a

915
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:19,670
leader. 
Everyone can be a leader. 

916
00:47:19,670 --> 00:47:21,590
It's not about title or station 
in life. 

917
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:24,670
So that said, why is it 
uncommon? 

918
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:29,270
I think again, because engineers
are so driven by intelligence. 

919
00:47:29,790 --> 00:47:34,190
Our ego, and I include myself in
this, leads us to believe that 

920
00:47:34,590 --> 00:47:37,190
we can just keep learning, keep 
studying and solve these 

921
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:39,030
problems on our own. 
We don't need a coach. 

922
00:47:39,470 --> 00:47:42,790
And for that, I'll just tell 
you, every engineering leader at

923
00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:45,990
all levels I've worked with, 
after they work with a coach, 

924
00:47:46,470 --> 00:47:49,310
they change their perspective 
about that okay. 

925
00:47:49,590 --> 00:47:54,270
So the best players have the 
best coaches, period, in every 

926
00:47:54,270 --> 00:47:57,670
industry, in every sector of 
life, whether it's sports or in 

927
00:47:57,670 --> 00:48:00,430
engineering and career. 
So that's the first piece. 

928
00:48:00,430 --> 00:48:04,810
Now why do we all need one? 
The fact is, if OK, Michael 

929
00:48:04,810 --> 00:48:07,490
Jordan needed a coach. 
If Michael Phelps needed a 

930
00:48:07,490 --> 00:48:11,530
coach, if Olympians need 
coaches, why would we not? 

931
00:48:11,530 --> 00:48:14,450
And it's not about your skill 
alone. 

932
00:48:14,890 --> 00:48:18,970
Did Michael Phelps's coach swim 
a faster freestyle than Michael 

933
00:48:18,970 --> 00:48:19,970
Phelps? 
No. 

934
00:48:20,250 --> 00:48:22,490
He was faster. 
He was better in the pool, but 

935
00:48:22,490 --> 00:48:25,010
he still had a whole team of 
coaches. 

936
00:48:25,250 --> 00:48:27,290
Why? 
It's because if you want to 

937
00:48:27,290 --> 00:48:30,810
perform at your best, you won't 
do that in isolation. 

938
00:48:31,290 --> 00:48:33,450
Isolation is the enemy of 
excellence. 

939
00:48:34,030 --> 00:48:38,910
Your edge, your best, your full 
potential demands you putting 

940
00:48:38,910 --> 00:48:42,030
yourself into an environment 
where someone else can challenge

941
00:48:42,030 --> 00:48:46,710
you to actually hold yourself to
a higher standard, to reach that

942
00:48:46,710 --> 00:48:50,350
edge, to provide new insights. 
And let's face it, a coach who's

943
00:48:50,350 --> 00:48:53,070
worked with hundreds of other 
leaders is going to be able to 

944
00:48:53,070 --> 00:48:56,950
bring hundreds of lifetimes of 
experiences into that 

945
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:59,270
conversation with you. 
And you can only live one 

946
00:48:59,270 --> 00:49:02,110
lifetime. 
So tap into those resources. 

947
00:49:02,110 --> 00:49:05,220
Get that help. 
And it is a catalyst to 

948
00:49:05,220 --> 00:49:07,380
transformation. 
It is such a fun process. 

949
00:49:07,380 --> 00:49:09,740
I think you'll really love it. 
So be an engineer. 

950
00:49:09,740 --> 00:49:12,620
Run the test, right. 
Don't draw a conclusion without 

951
00:49:12,620 --> 00:49:14,980
running the test. 
You know, I won't try to prove 

952
00:49:14,980 --> 00:49:17,220
to you today that coaching is 
the right thing. 

953
00:49:17,220 --> 00:49:19,660
I just want to appeal to your 
engineering spirit. 

954
00:49:20,060 --> 00:49:23,780
If you want to grow and succeed 
in your life, then run the test.

955
00:49:23,780 --> 00:49:26,900
Go get a coach and see for 
yourself with the experiences. 

956
00:49:26,900 --> 00:49:30,140
Like, unfortunately, Henry. 
Yeah, there's bad coaches out 

957
00:49:30,140 --> 00:49:31,440
there, all right, It's going to 
happen. 

958
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,480
Anywhere you go, there's going 
to be great and there's going to

959
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,720
be not as great. 
So be intentional. 

960
00:49:36,920 --> 00:49:39,640
Really look for that evidence of
their ability to help deliver 

961
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,680
results. 
Don't just hire the first person

962
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,440
you meet, but I think again, if 
you're open minded to it and you

963
00:49:45,440 --> 00:49:48,440
leave your ego at the door, 
there's so much potential for 

964
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:51,200
you to accelerate all the 
results you want in your career.

965
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:56,080
Yeah, if we look into, you know,
sports or other kind of jobs or 

966
00:49:56,080 --> 00:49:59,280
roles, right, they do have 
coaches, even executive has 

967
00:49:59,280 --> 00:50:00,410
coaches. 
Right. 

968
00:50:00,530 --> 00:50:02,450
So because. 
Yeah. 

969
00:50:02,530 --> 00:50:06,050
And because it is not just one 
thing that we are good at, it's 

970
00:50:06,050 --> 00:50:08,890
the many other things that maybe
we are not good at that we need 

971
00:50:08,890 --> 00:50:10,930
to improve, right. 
So just like what you said, the 

972
00:50:11,050 --> 00:50:14,490
coach of Michael Phelps doesn't 
swim faster than him, but maybe 

973
00:50:14,490 --> 00:50:17,970
there are other areas, maybe 
nutrition, mindset going through

974
00:50:17,970 --> 00:50:20,810
tough problems, right. 
So all these will challenge the 

975
00:50:20,810 --> 00:50:24,810
person to go to higher standards
and coaches maybe tapping from 

976
00:50:24,810 --> 00:50:26,770
their previous experience and 
knowledge. 

977
00:50:27,110 --> 00:50:31,030
May be able to help you as well.
So I think again maybe mindset 

978
00:50:31,030 --> 00:50:34,470
coming back to the mindset is 
one other areas that coaches 

979
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:37,950
will be able to peel off from 
your limiting beliefs so that 

980
00:50:37,950 --> 00:50:39,830
you can go to the next standard 
that you can. 

981
00:50:40,230 --> 00:50:43,430
So I think for people here, 
engineering leaders, not just 

982
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:46,630
the title leaders, right. 
If you want to master yourself, 

983
00:50:46,670 --> 00:50:50,110
improve yourself, maybe it's 
worth to explore finding coach 

984
00:50:50,150 --> 00:50:51,990
right. 
So I think it will be 

985
00:50:51,990 --> 00:50:55,720
transformational. 
So as we go through the last 

986
00:50:55,720 --> 00:50:58,560
section of the podcast, Zach, 
it's been a really great 

987
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,400
conversation, very insightful. 
I'm sure many people here also 

988
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,320
learn a lot, but I have one last
question that I would like to 

989
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:07,080
ask, which I normally ask to all
my guests, which I call the 

990
00:51:07,080 --> 00:51:09,040
three technical leadership 
wisdom. 

991
00:51:09,480 --> 00:51:12,280
So you can think of it just like
advice you want to give to us, 

992
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,480
maybe from your coaching 
experience, maybe from your 

993
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,880
burnout experience, or maybe 
from other experiences. 

994
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:19,760
So if you can summarize what are
your 3 technical leadership 

995
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:24,430
wisdom, Henry, I'm so tempted to
go back to my engineering days 

996
00:51:24,430 --> 00:51:27,350
and pull some of those practical
tactical things that helped me 

997
00:51:27,350 --> 00:51:30,510
succeed in my career. 
But I think it's prudent to stay

998
00:51:30,510 --> 00:51:32,990
in the coaching world because 
that's where I live and I want 

999
00:51:32,990 --> 00:51:35,710
to help people in that space and
continue pulling the threads we 

1000
00:51:35,710 --> 00:51:37,870
pulled today. 
So the three things I would 

1001
00:51:37,870 --> 00:51:43,750
share #1 all leadership begins 
with self leadership. 

1002
00:51:44,350 --> 00:51:49,040
So if you want to climb higher, 
then you need to dig deeper. 

1003
00:51:49,400 --> 00:51:53,400
You know the tallest skyscrapers
have the deepest foundations. 

1004
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:57,800
One failure mode technical leads
and engineering fall into as as 

1005
00:51:57,800 --> 00:51:59,800
you move up. 
You start to focus more on 

1006
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,400
leading others and then leading 
departments, leading strategy, 

1007
00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:07,440
leading the enterprise. 
And suddenly you get to a point 

1008
00:52:07,760 --> 00:52:11,560
where you have not been focusing
on personal growth and leading 

1009
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,800
yourself and now you have a weak
foundation. 

1010
00:52:14,430 --> 00:52:17,910
So remember, all leadership 
begins with self leadership and 

1011
00:52:18,110 --> 00:52:22,510
continue to invest in yourself 
to develop and grow. 

1012
00:52:22,510 --> 00:52:26,230
That's number one. 
Number two, ask better 

1013
00:52:26,270 --> 00:52:29,550
questions. 
Really practice and take the 

1014
00:52:29,550 --> 00:52:34,430
time to find resources to learn 
how to ask better questions in 

1015
00:52:34,430 --> 00:52:37,150
your own life, on your projects,
when you're leading meetings, 

1016
00:52:37,150 --> 00:52:40,270
when you're in one on ones, 
being able to ask powerful 

1017
00:52:40,270 --> 00:52:43,680
questions, knowing what kinds of
questions lead to better 

1018
00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:47,440
outcomes, and just continuously 
leveling up that skill set. 

1019
00:52:47,880 --> 00:52:50,640
Really think about asking 
questions as a skill that needs 

1020
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:54,280
practice and needs developed. 
When was the last time you went 

1021
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:58,360
out and looked for a list of 
powerful questions and just read

1022
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,600
through it and asked yourself 
which ones of these might be 

1023
00:53:01,600 --> 00:53:05,000
useful for me to bring into my 
life or into the workplace this 

1024
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,600
week? 
Take it seriously. 

1025
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:08,960
We all just sort of take for 
granted that we're good at 

1026
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,210
asking questions. 
Well, says who? 

1027
00:53:11,610 --> 00:53:13,770
This is a skill that you can 
continue to develop. 

1028
00:53:13,770 --> 00:53:17,450
So ask better questions. 
That would be #2 and then #3. 

1029
00:53:17,450 --> 00:53:19,250
I'll actually go back to 
something we already talked 

1030
00:53:19,250 --> 00:53:22,290
about in this podcast. 
But if you want to accelerate 

1031
00:53:22,290 --> 00:53:25,130
results, get out of your comfort
zone. 

1032
00:53:25,610 --> 00:53:28,290
So that's wisdom number three. 
Yeah, I mean, I just can't say 

1033
00:53:28,290 --> 00:53:30,930
it enough. 
You won't get to where you want 

1034
00:53:30,930 --> 00:53:33,890
to go by kicking back and 
staying comfortable. 

1035
00:53:33,890 --> 00:53:36,210
So make that a practice in your 
life. 

1036
00:53:36,210 --> 00:53:39,130
Ask yourself, how can I step out
of the comfort zone this week? 

1037
00:53:39,460 --> 00:53:42,900
What's something I'm afraid of 
that I could take a smart 

1038
00:53:42,900 --> 00:53:45,860
calculated risk on this week? 
Or, if I don't know what to do, 

1039
00:53:45,860 --> 00:53:47,860
who can I ask for help in that 
area? 

1040
00:53:47,860 --> 00:53:51,940
But get out of your comfort 
zone, because not only will it 

1041
00:53:51,980 --> 00:53:55,860
accelerate your growth, but I 
promise you it will trigger that

1042
00:53:55,860 --> 00:53:59,300
deep sense of satisfaction and 
fulfillment inside you that 

1043
00:53:59,300 --> 00:54:03,060
might feel like it's been muted 
by all the pressure of life. 

1044
00:54:03,450 --> 00:54:06,970
When you start getting into that
space of discomfort and fear and

1045
00:54:06,970 --> 00:54:09,210
exhilaration, it really makes 
you feel alive. 

1046
00:54:09,210 --> 00:54:10,810
It's really fun. 
So do it. 

1047
00:54:10,810 --> 00:54:13,370
I think you won't ever regret 
living that way, right? 

1048
00:54:13,370 --> 00:54:14,650
So those would be my top three, 
Henry. 

1049
00:54:15,250 --> 00:54:17,250
Thank you for reminding again 
about comfort zone. 

1050
00:54:17,250 --> 00:54:19,290
Now also it reminds me of 
something right? 

1051
00:54:19,290 --> 00:54:23,890
So one fun thing is that as we 
went through life so when we are

1052
00:54:23,890 --> 00:54:26,810
kid right, our comfort zone 
level is actually very low. 

1053
00:54:26,810 --> 00:54:30,130
We always try new stuffs, 
experiment, feel and did it with

1054
00:54:30,170 --> 00:54:32,820
fun, right? 
But as we go through our age, 

1055
00:54:33,020 --> 00:54:36,340
normally for most people, we 
tend not to get out of comfort 

1056
00:54:36,340 --> 00:54:38,020
zone. 
Our comfort zone becomes higher 

1057
00:54:38,020 --> 00:54:40,660
and higher, right. 
So I think that's a powerful 

1058
00:54:40,660 --> 00:54:42,380
question for me when I learn 
about that, right. 

1059
00:54:42,380 --> 00:54:46,340
So as you go through life, think
of what areas actually you are 

1060
00:54:46,340 --> 00:54:49,060
holding back. 
So I think that's a very, very 

1061
00:54:49,060 --> 00:54:51,900
good reflection. 
So Zach, thank you so much for 

1062
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:54,220
all this sharing. 
I'm sure it's really, really 

1063
00:54:54,220 --> 00:54:56,940
useful for all engineers. 
I hope they become happier just 

1064
00:54:56,940 --> 00:54:59,780
by listening to this episode, 
although it takes a lot more 

1065
00:54:59,780 --> 00:55:02,500
effort beyond that. 
But for people who want to learn

1066
00:55:02,500 --> 00:55:05,860
more, get more resources or 
contact you, is there a place 

1067
00:55:05,940 --> 00:55:07,660
where they can reach you out 
online? 

1068
00:55:08,420 --> 00:55:10,820
Absolutely. 
Well, Henry, thank you again for

1069
00:55:10,820 --> 00:55:12,660
having me. 
And I just can't say enough 

1070
00:55:12,660 --> 00:55:15,410
about the work you're doing and 
the the value that's created 

1071
00:55:15,410 --> 00:55:18,050
through this podcast and your 
passion for engineering and 

1072
00:55:18,050 --> 00:55:21,130
technical leadership. 
But if anyone wants to go deeper

1073
00:55:21,130 --> 00:55:25,370
on the blueprint on Coaching for
Engineers, any of the topics 

1074
00:55:25,370 --> 00:55:28,890
that came up today, we mentioned
the Happy Engineer podcast. 

1075
00:55:29,170 --> 00:55:32,690
If you go over to the podcast in
the show, notes are all the ways

1076
00:55:32,690 --> 00:55:35,290
to connect with me. 
I won't list them all here, but 

1077
00:55:35,490 --> 00:55:38,210
one of the things I definitely 
encourage everyone to do if this

1078
00:55:38,210 --> 00:55:41,970
conversation resonates for you 
is to take advantage of the 

1079
00:55:41,970 --> 00:55:45,320
opportunity as a gift to you for
listening through this whole 

1080
00:55:45,320 --> 00:55:48,560
podcast to get a free coaching 
session with me and my team. 

1081
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:53,760
And so to do that, jump over to 
the Happy engineerpodcast.com. 

1082
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,280
There's a contact form in the 
upper right. 

1083
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,520
You can send us a note. 
Say you found out about me 

1084
00:55:59,520 --> 00:56:03,160
through Tech Lead Journal 
podcast and we'll make sure to 

1085
00:56:03,160 --> 00:56:06,520
get you that opportunity if it's
a fit for us to support you for 

1086
00:56:06,520 --> 00:56:08,600
a 75 minute free coaching 
session. 

1087
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:12,760
If you're in the US, you can 
actually text the word Lifestyle

1088
00:56:13,180 --> 00:56:17,620
to the short code 55444. 
That's another way to get 

1089
00:56:17,620 --> 00:56:20,140
directly to our calendar. 
It's just that one word 

1090
00:56:20,140 --> 00:56:23,900
Lifestyle to 55444. 
If you're outside the US, you'll

1091
00:56:23,900 --> 00:56:26,860
have to submit through the form 
because the text doesn't work 

1092
00:56:27,100 --> 00:56:30,500
internationally, but would be an
absolute pleasure to provide 

1093
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:32,780
that free support for you and 
help you build that game. 

1094
00:56:32,780 --> 00:56:37,380
Plan that playbook for where you
need to focus in doing less and 

1095
00:56:37,380 --> 00:56:40,080
getting to the results you want.
Thank you for giving the 

1096
00:56:40,080 --> 00:56:43,120
opportunity for people to get 
some free coaching, at least to 

1097
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:46,080
experience right what coaching 
is all about and what kind of 

1098
00:56:46,080 --> 00:56:48,800
opportunity they can get through
coaching. 

1099
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,200
So for people who just listen, 
make sure you give it a try. 

1100
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:55,920
So Zach here has kindly given us
the opportunity to experience 

1101
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,040
his coaching. 
So thank you so much for that. 

1102
00:56:58,480 --> 00:56:59,960
All right. 
So I think that's the wrap of 

1103
00:56:59,960 --> 00:57:01,800
our conversation. 
Again, thank you so much for 

1104
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:03,840
sharing, Zach. 
I'm really, really happy that 

1105
00:57:03,880 --> 00:57:05,960
engineers here can become more 
happy as well. 

1106
00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:08,080
Henry, it's been an absolute 
pleasure. 

1107
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:13,010
Thanks for having me. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1108
00:57:13,010 --> 00:57:15,410
episode and for staying right 
until the end. 

1109
00:57:15,770 --> 00:57:18,930
If you highly enjoyed it, I 
would appreciate if you share it

1110
00:57:18,930 --> 00:57:21,930
with your friends and colleagues
who you think would also benefit

1111
00:57:21,930 --> 00:57:24,730
from listening to this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1112
00:57:24,730 --> 00:57:27,730
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1113
00:57:27,730 --> 00:57:30,730
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot in order to 

1114
00:57:30,730 --> 00:57:34,010
grow this podcast better. 
You can also find the full show 

1115
00:57:34,010 --> 00:57:37,250
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at Techly 

1116
00:57:37,250 --> 00:57:40,310
journal dot dev website. 
Including the full transcript, 

1117
00:57:40,590 --> 00:57:44,190
interesting quotes, and links to
the resources mentioned from the

1118
00:57:44,190 --> 00:57:47,030
conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1119
00:57:47,030 --> 00:57:50,550
subscribe to the show's mailing 
list on techlyjuno dot dev to 

1120
00:57:50,550 --> 00:57:52,870
get notified for any future 
episodes. 

1121
00:57:53,350 --> 00:57:56,630
Stay tuned for the next 
Techlyjuno episode, and until 

1122
00:57:56,630 --> 00:57:57,710
then, goodbye.