1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,500
It's really important to 
understand the stage of your 

2
00:00:04,500 --> 00:00:08,700
company and the kind of risks 
you face at your stage and make 

3
00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:12,400
decisions that are appropriate 
and remind other people about 

4
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:19,900
that the other people that you 
work with all the time, hey 

5
00:00:19,900 --> 00:00:22,800
everyone, my name is Henry Surya
we Robin. 

6
00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,400
And you're listening to the 
technology, you know, podcast 

7
00:00:27,700 --> 00:00:30,100
the show where I'll be bringing 
you the greatest technical 

8
00:00:30,100 --> 00:00:33,900
leaders practitioners and 
thought leaders in the industry 

9
00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:38,600
to discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

10
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:42,200
can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

11
00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:45,100
and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

12
00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:53,100
So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hey everyone. 

13
00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:56,100
Welcome to the technology on our
podcast, the podcast where you 

14
00:00:56,100 --> 00:00:58,800
can learn about technical 
leadership and Excellence from 

15
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,200
my conversations with great 
thought, leaders in the tech 

16
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:03,300
industry. 
If this is your first time 

17
00:01:03,300 --> 00:01:05,900
listening to technology, you 
know, subscribe and follow the 

18
00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:09,300
show on your podcast app and 
also social media on LinkedIn, 

19
00:01:09,300 --> 00:01:12,100
Twitter and Instagram. 
And for those of you longtime 

20
00:01:12,100 --> 00:01:15,800
listeners who want to appreciate
and support my work, subscribe 

21
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:19,600
as a patron at technology. 
No, dot f / Patron, or buy me a 

22
00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:21,900
coffee at technology, not Dev 
slash. 

23
00:01:23,300 --> 00:01:27,700
My guest for today's episode is 
Sarah milstein Sarah is the VP 

24
00:01:27,700 --> 00:01:32,200
of engineering at Daily and has 
run remote teams for 25 years 

25
00:01:32,500 --> 00:01:36,000
and this episode Sarah started 
by sharing some remote work 

26
00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,000
insights. 
We may not have heard before 

27
00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,200
such as why remote. 
Distributed teams often have 

28
00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,300
higher propensity of trust how 
remote work. 

29
00:01:44,300 --> 00:01:47,700
Could help make difficult 
conversations easier and how 

30
00:01:47,700 --> 00:01:51,400
leaders can establish Swift 
trust by having more intentional

31
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,200
communication. 
Asians in the second half of our

32
00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:57,800
conversation, Sarah shared about
her experience of leading 

33
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,800
Engineers, as someone from a non
Tech background, she explain why

34
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,300
a lack of technical expertise 
can sometimes be useful and 

35
00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:08,300
point it out some leadership 
qualities and Engineering leader

36
00:02:08,300 --> 00:02:11,600
should have to balance out the 
need for technical Acumen. 

37
00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,700
Sarah also shared her few tips 
on how to obscure her selves in 

38
00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:18,300
technical staffs. 
And her perspective on whether a

39
00:02:18,300 --> 00:02:22,700
company should consider having 
non Tech, engineering leaders, I

40
00:02:22,700 --> 00:02:25,600
enjoyed my conversation with 
Sara, and if you also enjoyed 

41
00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,400
this episode and find it useful,
I would appreciate it. 

42
00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,800
If you can help share this 
episode with your colleagues 

43
00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,600
friends communities. 
So that more people would also 

44
00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,400
be able to learn from this 
episode. 

45
00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:39,000
Please also leave a five star 
rating and review on a podcast 

46
00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,700
and Spotify which I will highly 
appreciate. 

47
00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:45,400
Let's go to my conversation with
Sarah after a few words from our

48
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,200
sponsors. 
Are you looking for a new cool? 

49
00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:49,900
Swag? 
Technology, you know. 

50
00:02:49,900 --> 00:02:53,200
Now offers you some swags that 
you Purchase online. 

51
00:02:53,500 --> 00:02:57,300
These wax are printed on demand 
based on your preference and 

52
00:02:57,300 --> 00:02:59,900
will be delivered safely to you 
all over the world. 

53
00:02:59,900 --> 00:03:03,200
We're shipping is available. 
Check out all the cool swag is 

54
00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,000
available by visiting 
technology. 

55
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,400
No dot f / shop and don't forget
to break yourself. 

56
00:03:08,500 --> 00:03:10,600
Once you receive any of those 
tracks. 

57
00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:15,600
Hello everyone. 
Welcome back to the new episode 

58
00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:18,400
of the tank original podcast. 
Today, we have a guest named 

59
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:23,000
Sarah milstein sees, the VP of 
engineering at Daily So she has 

60
00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:26,800
a very unique experience of 
having to work in or manage the 

61
00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:29,200
remote teams for more than two 
decades. 

62
00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:30,600
I think this is really 
interesting. 

63
00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:34,000
Today we'll be talking a little 
bit more about remote working 

64
00:03:34,100 --> 00:03:37,400
her experience or any insights 
that we can learn from her 

65
00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,700
anything that we haven't learned
from the pandemic because she 

66
00:03:40,700 --> 00:03:42,800
had more than our experience, 
right? 

67
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,500
So Sarah, thank you for this 
opportunity. 

68
00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:46,400
Looking forward for our 
conversation. 

69
00:03:47,100 --> 00:03:48,700
Henry, thank you so much for 
having me. 

70
00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:51,800
So, Sarah, I always like to 
start my conversation by. 

71
00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:54,900
Asking you to share your career 
Journey if you have any 

72
00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:57,600
highlights or turning point. 
So you think what to share with 

73
00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,000
the audience here? 
Yeah, so I started out working 

74
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,400
in nonprofits and I wound up 
being able to find work as a 

75
00:04:06,408 --> 00:04:11,300
freelance journalist writing 
about tech and got lucky in that

76
00:04:11,300 --> 00:04:15,400
I was able to write for the New 
York Times as a freelancer and 

77
00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:20,300
through that, I got connected 
with O'Reilly media which at the

78
00:04:20,300 --> 00:04:25,400
time was a big book. 
Sure and Conference producer and

79
00:04:25,400 --> 00:04:30,800
O'Reilly hired me to help edit a
series of books in my work with 

80
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,500
O'Reilly, in addition to getting
much closer to the startup world

81
00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:40,300
and the software world. 
I also had the experience that 

82
00:04:40,500 --> 00:04:45,800
editing books was a lot like 
shipping software at the time, 

83
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:51,400
which is to say that there were 
a number of repeatable processes

84
00:04:51,500 --> 00:04:54,200
that you need. 
Get a whole team involved in and

85
00:04:54,200 --> 00:04:59,900
typically there was a ship date 
after which you would learn if 

86
00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,700
anybody was going to buy the 
thing because at the time 

87
00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:07,100
software shipped on a date and 
it came on a CD and you had 

88
00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:10,800
really no idea if it was going 
to be successful until you spent

89
00:05:10,900 --> 00:05:14,300
sometimes years and thousands or
millions of dollars on it and 

90
00:05:14,300 --> 00:05:18,100
books were similar and it seemed
like a sort of a broken model to

91
00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:21,100
me that we could do things a 
little bit differently. 

92
00:05:21,700 --> 00:05:24,700
And I started to learn from some
of the books. 

93
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:28,100
We didn't publish these books, 
but at the time, the extreme 

94
00:05:28,100 --> 00:05:32,900
programming books had an idea of
pair programming and trying to 

95
00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:37,600
get closer to your customers and
like the agile Manifesto was, 

96
00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:40,500
you know, for what it was, 
there's been lots of argument 

97
00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:43,000
about it since, but it had this 
idea that you want to really be 

98
00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,800
connected to your customers, you
don't want to build things that 

99
00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,300
are irrelevant. 
And those ideas felt really 

100
00:05:47,300 --> 00:05:50,100
exciting to me in editing and I 
started to bring those into the 

101
00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:52,800
book publishing process. 
And then eventually kind of 

102
00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,600
jumped into the software world 
to be able to work more directly

103
00:05:56,800 --> 00:05:59,800
on things that increasingly as 
the web developed. 

104
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:03,500
You could ship continually and 
didn't require having to wait 

105
00:06:03,500 --> 00:06:07,700
years to find out if anybody was
going to buy your thing and I 

106
00:06:07,700 --> 00:06:10,700
worked in a lot of different 
roles in software and a lot of 

107
00:06:10,700 --> 00:06:13,300
different companies over a 
number of years. 

108
00:06:13,300 --> 00:06:17,400
I wound up eventually running 
Lean Startup Productions which 

109
00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,600
Eric Ries With The Lean Startup 
book and this was a company that

110
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,900
we developed. 
Publish a bunch of his ideas and

111
00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:27,400
related ideas and that brought 
me even closer in some ways to 

112
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:30,300
the software world because those
ideas were pretty influential 

113
00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:32,600
for a while. 
And it took me back into 

114
00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:37,100
software where after working for
the federal government in a 

115
00:06:37,100 --> 00:06:39,200
software Organization for the 
federal government. 

116
00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:43,700
A friend recruited me to work on
the engineering team at 

117
00:06:43,700 --> 00:06:47,500
MailChimp at the time MailChimp 
which is based in Atlanta. 

118
00:06:47,500 --> 00:06:51,300
Georgia had just opened an 
office in Brooklyn which in 

119
00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:55,200
fact, Incidentally a couple of 
blocks from my apartment and 

120
00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:59,700
needed somebody to run the 
Brooklyn office and serve on the

121
00:06:59,707 --> 00:07:02,500
engineering leadership team and 
I wasn't an engineer. 

122
00:07:02,500 --> 00:07:06,400
But I'd been in software for a 
long time at that point and had 

123
00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,000
a lot of the business skills 
that they needed in the office. 

124
00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:12,500
And I was excited about the idea
of working in engineering, 

125
00:07:12,500 --> 00:07:15,800
because it felt like it would be
a more leverage place to be in a

126
00:07:15,808 --> 00:07:19,200
software company and that I'd be
able to apply more of the ideas,

127
00:07:19,300 --> 00:07:21,800
more directly. 
And that was fun for a couple of

128
00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,100
years. 
And I've since gone on to work 

129
00:07:23,100 --> 00:07:25,800
for a couple of other companies 
and Engineering leadership. 

130
00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:29,400
And so, in almost all the cases,
as you noted earlier, the 

131
00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,700
companies themselves were 
remote, like distributed 

132
00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:36,400
companies or I was working in 
satellite offices or usually it 

133
00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:38,700
was a hybrid. 
And I was working with people 

134
00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:41,300
who were very distributed and 
often, I was working from home 

135
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,900
and that's been true for 
actually, now more than two 

136
00:07:43,900 --> 00:07:46,300
decades in my career. 
So, it kind of an interesting 

137
00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:49,200
combination at this point of 
engineering leadership as a non 

138
00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:51,800
engineer and remote leadership 
of are very long. 

139
00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:54,500
Ang period of time. 
Thank you for sharing your 

140
00:07:54,500 --> 00:07:57,700
story, the two key things that 
we'll be talking a lot today is 

141
00:07:57,700 --> 00:07:59,700
fast about the or remote working
experience. 

142
00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,800
And secondly, it's about being 
engineering leader coming from a

143
00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:05,800
non-technical background. 
So let's start from the remote 

144
00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,600
work itself. 
So you have work in remote setup

145
00:08:08,700 --> 00:08:10,900
or hybrid sometimes for more 
than two decades. 

146
00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:14,800
Most of the people has just 
started working remotely during 

147
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,800
the pandemic and some people are
even going back to the office 

148
00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:20,200
these days. 
So, working remote is something 

149
00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,400
that is unique experience, but 
Sure it's not be unique to you. 

150
00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,000
What are some of the key things 
if you can share? 

151
00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,300
When the pandemic happened is 
there anything that you need to 

152
00:08:29,300 --> 00:08:32,299
do differently from the previous
remote setup that you did? 

153
00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:38,600
Well, I think one of the things 
that is true about remote work 

154
00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:42,700
is that it works incredibly well
for some people and not at all 

155
00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:46,300
for other people and there are a
number of people in between of 

156
00:08:46,300 --> 00:08:48,800
course to I think we've all 
learned in a lot of ways in the 

157
00:08:48,808 --> 00:08:51,300
last couple of years, is that 
there's no point in being 

158
00:08:51,300 --> 00:08:53,400
pedantic. 
Talk about what's better or 

159
00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,100
worse? 
It really depends on different 

160
00:08:56,100 --> 00:08:59,000
individuals and the culture of 
different companies. 

161
00:08:59,300 --> 00:09:03,300
Even though I personally prefer 
remote work and have found it to

162
00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:06,900
be over time, more productive. 
And I can talk about that, I 

163
00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:09,100
want to be careful to note that 
there are lots of people for 

164
00:09:09,100 --> 00:09:11,700
whom for whatever friend number 
of reasons. 

165
00:09:11,700 --> 00:09:15,900
It's not the best mode and it's 
worth investigating for your 

166
00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,300
company. 
What's best and being upfront 

167
00:09:18,300 --> 00:09:21,800
with people when you're hiring 
so that there's not like Laura, 

168
00:09:21,900 --> 00:09:26,100
People on a false premise but 
that said I think there's a 

169
00:09:26,108 --> 00:09:29,900
number of things about remote 
work that I have found to be 

170
00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:33,200
more effective and some of it is
just that to do remote work, 

171
00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:38,600
well requires good management 
and that's true in person to 

172
00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,900
like, you can get more juice out
of good management. 

173
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:43,900
Then you cannot have bad 
management. 

174
00:09:43,900 --> 00:09:47,300
But, you know, remote setting. 
You have to be, for example, 

175
00:09:47,300 --> 00:09:50,600
more intentional about 
communication, it doesn't 

176
00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:52,400
happen. 
Totally. 

177
00:09:52,500 --> 00:09:55,800
Now, I think that's a benefit 
having leaders and managers who 

178
00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,600
have to be more intentional, 
tend to be better leaders and 

179
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,900
people get better information, 
more consistently. 

180
00:10:02,300 --> 00:10:06,100
You can do that in person, but 
lots of people kind of forget or

181
00:10:06,100 --> 00:10:08,800
doesn't seem as necessary. 
So, there's lots of things like 

182
00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,400
that were remote work just kind 
of reinforces good practices, 

183
00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,000
but I think there's also some 
more subtle things about it. 

184
00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:20,400
That are kind of interesting. 
So, for example, a few years ago

185
00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,400
before the pandemic I noticed, 
Self saying to somebody that I 

186
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,700
preferred working in remote 
companies because they tend to 

187
00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:28,600
be higher trust environments and
higher trusted. 

188
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,400
Lots of research shows makes for
much more productive and happier

189
00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,200
teams and it was a little funny 
when I heard myself say that 

190
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,400
because the conventional wisdom 
is, that remote work is low 

191
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:39,800
trust. 
I did some research into why I 

192
00:10:39,800 --> 00:10:41,900
might have felt that way and why
that might not be their 

193
00:10:41,900 --> 00:10:44,600
conventional wisdom. 
And I think what's interesting 

194
00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:49,800
is that it turns out that people
have different ways that they 

195
00:10:49,900 --> 00:10:51,700
build trust with other people 
and different ways. 

196
00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:56,100
If they feel trusted, so there's
some psychological terms for 

197
00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:58,700
this and I hope I'm not getting 
these wrong, but there's this 

198
00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:01,600
idea that some people have a 
high propensity for trust and 

199
00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:03,900
some people have a low 
propensity and I want to be 

200
00:11:03,900 --> 00:11:05,500
clear. 
I don't think that's the low 

201
00:11:05,500 --> 00:11:08,100
propensity is a judgment. 
It's just a different mode and 

202
00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:12,000
the people who are low, 
propensity feel more trusted 

203
00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:16,000
when people see them and they 
trust other people when they can

204
00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:18,700
see them. 
That's part of their experience 

205
00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:21,600
of trust and they tend to start 
off the low propensity means. 

206
00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:25,100
Start off, not trusting people 
very much and you can kind of 

207
00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:27,900
build that up and part of the 
way you build it up as by seeing

208
00:11:27,900 --> 00:11:31,300
each other people who have a 
high propensity start off more 

209
00:11:31,300 --> 00:11:34,300
trusting and you can kind of 
lower the amount of trust 

210
00:11:34,300 --> 00:11:37,300
certainly but they also tend to 
be people who don't need to be 

211
00:11:37,300 --> 00:11:40,000
seen to be trusted and who don't
need to see other people. 

212
00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,300
They are more interested in the 
work product. 

213
00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:45,400
So you can see where people like
that tend to be drawn to remote 

214
00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,300
work, and tend to feel like very
trusted and like, they can trust

215
00:11:49,300 --> 00:11:54,400
their colleagues in a setting. 
And that is kind of designed for

216
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:55,700
the work product, being the 
thing. 

217
00:11:55,700 --> 00:11:59,100
That's most important. 
So I think there's a number of 

218
00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:02,000
subtleties like that about 
remote work that we're still 

219
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:05,600
learning and will take a while 
to get figure it out. 

220
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:08,500
So, it's interesting that you 
mention about this propensity of

221
00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:10,400
truss, right? 
I can get it. 

222
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:13,500
For example, if you are totally 
remote company and you have to 

223
00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:16,700
hire people, definitely, you 
need to have a lot of trust with

224
00:12:16,700 --> 00:12:18,800
the people also for the employee
themselves. 

225
00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:20,300
Right. 
They need to put a lot of trust 

226
00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:23,500
in the employ even though, They 
may not see the bosses, they may

227
00:12:23,500 --> 00:12:26,200
not see the offices, the 
colleagues and things like that,

228
00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,200
maybe in the first place. 
How can we gauge this propensity

229
00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,800
of trust for a candidate or 
maybe for an employer right? 

230
00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:36,700
How can we actually gauge that 
this is a good trusted place 

231
00:12:36,700 --> 00:12:39,200
that we can go to? 
Is there some tips that you 

232
00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,200
normally do whenever you get 
candidate? 

233
00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,500
So when you look at the next 
company that you want to join, 

234
00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:49,400
maybe some tips here for people 
who love working remotely Yeah. 

235
00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:52,600
Well, I think one advantage that
we have gained is that in the 

236
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:56,400
last couple of years, a lot of 
people have figured out whether 

237
00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,400
they like remote work and 
whether they hate it and a lot 

238
00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,300
of times if they like it, they 
are like the high trusting High 

239
00:13:04,300 --> 00:13:05,400
propensity. 
And a lot of times when they 

240
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,000
don't they're low propensity. 
So there's a little bit of Auto 

241
00:13:08,000 --> 00:13:11,500
filtering. 
I learned recently that in the 

242
00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:17,600
time since before the pandemic 
LinkedIn has seen only a small 

243
00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:21,600
bump in the Were of companies 
that list remote jobs you would 

244
00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,300
think would be like a huge 
increase and it's something like

245
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:29,200
it went from 3% to 13% of their 
job listings but the job Seekers

246
00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,300
went from like three percent to 
50 percent. 

247
00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,000
A lot of people are looking for 
remote work and I think that's a

248
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:39,700
lot of people have discovered 
that they are more productive in

249
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,600
a remote setting and happier and
they might not associate that 

250
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:45,300
with trust. 
So it's a hard thing to ask 

251
00:13:45,300 --> 00:13:48,500
about and typically you kind of 
want to try to gauge. 

252
00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:51,300
Rather than ask directly for a 
lot of the things you want to 

253
00:13:51,308 --> 00:13:56,000
learn in an interview anyway, 
one of the things that we do at 

254
00:13:56,000 --> 00:14:01,100
Daily, where I am now we sell 
real time audio and video apis, 

255
00:14:01,100 --> 00:14:04,400
so that anybody can embed 
real-time Audio and Video in any

256
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:06,700
app or website. 
And so, we're like a pretty 

257
00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:09,700
technical company. 
And when we are hiring people, 

258
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:14,900
we do for any kind of a role, we
do a paid take home where the 

259
00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,500
candidates produce on their own 
time, some kind of work product.

260
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,700
That we've given them 
instructions for and they can 

261
00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:24,400
ask questions as they go and 
then we talked it over and 

262
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,200
that's the main thing that we 
use to make decisions about 

263
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:30,300
people but it's not just what 
they produce. 

264
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:34,400
A lot of what we care about is 
how they talk to us about it. 

265
00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:39,900
Do they ask important questions 
as they go when were discussing 

266
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:42,900
things and we're talking about 
the decisions they made does 

267
00:14:42,900 --> 00:14:45,300
that get into an interesting 
conversation where they're 

268
00:14:45,300 --> 00:14:47,400
asking us questions and are 
being a little bit of 

269
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:50,900
vulnerable? 
And when we ask them questions, 

270
00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:55,700
they're able to say I don't know
or be very clear about why they 

271
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,800
made decisions. 
And those kinds of signals are a

272
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:02,000
lot of the sorts of signals that
you get. 

273
00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,000
When you're trying to figure out
trust with new colleagues, are 

274
00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,800
you able to ask questions? 
Are you able to answer questions

275
00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:09,900
are people defensive or not? 
So defensive? 

276
00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:13,200
So I think that kind of stuff. 
Again, it's a little bit 

277
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,800
implicit but can give you the 
sorts of signals that help you 

278
00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:19,700
figure out if somebody's will. 
Suited for your culture. 

279
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,600
That's a very interesting 
statistics that you mentioned 

280
00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,000
are from LinkedIn, right? 
So I even experienced it myself 

281
00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:28,000
whenever I interviewed 
candidates, right? 

282
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,100
Some of them will just say, 
yeah, I want to find jobs which 

283
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:34,100
are only remote and they are 
plenty of them, which I 

284
00:15:34,108 --> 00:15:37,000
explained widely than the 
statistics found that many 

285
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,200
candidates wanted to work 
remotely. 

286
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:42,700
But why do you think some 
companies wanted to go back to 

287
00:15:42,700 --> 00:15:44,700
the previous setup? 
Even though, during the 

288
00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:48,200
pandemic, I'm sure most of them 
would have seen that it works as

289
00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:49,300
well. 
Can remotely. 

290
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:52,800
Is there anything in particular 
that you found with this trend? 

291
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,400
So one thing is, I do think 
there's lots of people including

292
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,900
lots of managers and leaders who
don't trust other people and 

293
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:03,900
don't feel trusted, unless they 
see them and they want to feel 

294
00:16:03,900 --> 00:16:05,900
trusted as much as they want to 
trust other people. 

295
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:09,500
Like, that's very important. 
So that's real for some people I

296
00:16:09,500 --> 00:16:14,600
think though it is also the case
to be completely candid, that 

297
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,100
lots and lots of companies have 
spent a whole lot of of money on

298
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:22,500
real estate and real estate 
leases last for years and years 

299
00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:27,400
sometimes decades and they want 
to get some value out of the 

300
00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:29,500
real estate. 
You can have a debate about 

301
00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:33,200
whether that's a good motivation
or not, but you could see if 

302
00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:39,600
you've spent that money and you 
feel a greater sense of trust 

303
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,300
with your colleagues in an 
in-person setting or in a hybrid

304
00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:45,100
like partially. 
You're at least in person some 

305
00:16:45,100 --> 00:16:48,500
of the time that can start to 
feel pretty compelling. 

306
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,500
In some cultures, there are 
also, of course, times when in 

307
00:16:53,500 --> 00:16:57,200
person is more meaningful, a lot
of people find that generative 

308
00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,500
work do brainstorming. 
For example, is easier in person

309
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:04,500
and richer, so that's valid and 
there are times when it's 

310
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:06,900
probably not as useful to be in 
person. 

311
00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:11,200
But on balance, it might be hard
to figure out what's worth it 

312
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,500
and what's not and if you have a
culture where people are already

313
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:17,400
used to it and the leaders tend 
to feel like they can trust 

314
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:20,599
people more and They spent the 
money, you could kind of see 

315
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:24,200
that math adding up for some 
companies I think makes sense, 

316
00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,599
right? 
Some people wants to have more 

317
00:17:25,599 --> 00:17:29,400
collaborative one to have 
in-person meeting and maybe spot

318
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,800
the creative conversation out of
the blue right. 

319
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,600
Not always in meetings video, 
meetings are more which 

320
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:36,800
sometimes it's a little bit 
fatigued, right? 

321
00:17:37,000 --> 00:17:39,700
Another thing that you mentioned
in your blocks that you have 

322
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:43,000
some other insights from doing 
remote work, which you have 

323
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,600
never heard before. 
Could you share, maybe some 

324
00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:48,400
other insights that you think 
are worth to share here apart? 

325
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:52,400
On this higher trust because you
said earlier, that remote works.

326
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,200
Sometimes breeds higher. 
Trust are there any other 

327
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,000
insights that you want to share 
with us here? 

328
00:17:57,700 --> 00:17:59,700
I think there are a couple of 
other things that are 

329
00:17:59,700 --> 00:18:02,700
interesting and there's a few 
kind of basic ones I can talk 

330
00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:05,600
about. 
For example, this is a little 

331
00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:08,500
bit unconventional as well, but 
I have found that hard 

332
00:18:08,500 --> 00:18:12,800
conversations. 
Tend to be easier over video 

333
00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:15,600
than in person. 
So a lot of times people, if you

334
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,700
have to deliver difficult 
feedback or if your Lying 

335
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,000
somebody off or having any kind 
of a really hard conversation 

336
00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,800
like that in person, people can 
feel really exposed 

337
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,400
understandably. 
And, of course, sometimes people

338
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:33,600
cry and they have like, a whole 
big range of emotions when 

339
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:36,400
they're on video in your, a 
little removed from each other. 

340
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:41,200
Sometimes that gives people a 
little bit of space to feel a 

341
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:44,400
little bit less uncomfortable 
with a hard conversation. 

342
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,200
And that's true on both sides of
it. 

343
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,500
The manager and whomever is The 
info. 

344
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,500
So I think that actually 
surprisingly can be a little bit

345
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:55,800
better. 
A little counterintuitive, I 

346
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,400
think sometimes too. 
There's a real intimacy that you

347
00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,800
can get at work. 
This isn't true universally but 

348
00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:07,200
a lot of people working from 
home you have a chance to see 

349
00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:11,000
their space you and I are on 
video right now so you can see 

350
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,300
some of my books and you might 
be able to hear that my dog is 

351
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:18,000
eating her food dinner. 
Pretty loudly which I apologize 

352
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:23,200
for But you get a sense of my 
life a little bit, and it's a 

353
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:25,100
kind of a form of intimacy to be
in each. 

354
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:27,900
Other's spaces to see each, 
other's families and pets. 

355
00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,000
There's a lot more cats 
wandering around video screens 

356
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:36,300
and remote work, and a chance to
be connected to each other 

357
00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:38,700
beyond the selves that we bring 
to work. 

358
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:42,100
Now for me, I find that to be 
like a very compelling kind of 

359
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:44,800
intimacy when I'm in an office 
working with people. 

360
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,100
Now, I often feel like how can I
know you because I don't see the

361
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:50,500
space. 
You inhabit otherwise and I 

362
00:19:50,508 --> 00:19:52,700
don't see your family and your 
pets. 

363
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:55,700
It feels pretty disconnected. 
It's totally fair that not 

364
00:19:55,700 --> 00:19:59,700
everybody wants their family and
pets in their house on screen 

365
00:19:59,700 --> 00:20:05,400
all the time, but it's become 
relatively common and to me, 

366
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,300
that often feels like a very big
point of connection that we kind

367
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,700
of lose in an office. 
You get different things in 

368
00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:15,300
person, but a loss of a real 
context for a person's life. 

369
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:18,400
So those are a few of the basic 
things. 

370
00:20:18,500 --> 00:20:21,400
Things. 
I do think there are some other 

371
00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:28,300
more subtle things like a sense 
sometimes of having an in-group 

372
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:31,400
feeling where people for whom 
remote work Works. 

373
00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,100
Feels like you're part of a 
community part of a group that 

374
00:20:34,100 --> 00:20:37,100
is a little bit different from 
the world where it doesn't work.

375
00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:39,600
And that can be a little bit of 
a form of trust as well. 

376
00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:42,900
So in there's both some 
Logistics to it and some kind of

377
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,500
subtle human connection pieces, 
that can be really powerful. 

378
00:20:47,200 --> 00:20:49,000
Just do you touch on about the 
in-group? 

379
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,300
Think maybe Keith can elaborate 
more, right? 

380
00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:54,700
So you wrote in your blog that 
you have this in-group bias kind

381
00:20:54,700 --> 00:20:56,100
of thing. 
Maybe you can explain. 

382
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:58,600
What does it mean? 
And what do you mean by people 

383
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,700
associating as an in-group 
thing, whenever they work 

384
00:21:01,700 --> 00:21:03,400
remotely? 
And how does it differ with the 

385
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,900
known remote work setup? 
Well, the idea of in-group bias 

386
00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:11,500
is that people who recognize 
some commonality among each 

387
00:21:11,500 --> 00:21:14,600
other identify with each other. 
And feel like they are part of a

388
00:21:14,608 --> 00:21:19,100
group and that is itself Trust. 
Going to be part of the group, I

389
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:23,400
think before the pandemic, when 
it was much still like a thing, 

390
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:25,900
but much less common that people
work remotely. 

391
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,100
The feeling of we like remote 
work and we're good at it, that 

392
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:33,000
felt like you were part of a 
pretty special in group and 

393
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,200
could just be itself, 
trust-building among people in 

394
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,600
remote companies, out of the 
gate more and more people, of 

395
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:41,800
course, and more. 
And more companies work this 

396
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:42,200
way. 
Now. 

397
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,300
So, it's a little bit less of an
in-group that's differentiated, 

398
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:48,200
from the norm. 
But it's still clear that 

399
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,400
there's groups of people who 
like to work primarily in person

400
00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:53,600
and groups of people who like to
work, primarily not in person. 

401
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,700
And I think in both cases, you 
get a little bit of in-group 

402
00:21:56,700 --> 00:21:59,900
sensibility of, were the kind of
people who like to work in this 

403
00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:01,900
way. 
And as I said at the beginning, 

404
00:22:01,900 --> 00:22:05,500
filtering for the people who 
want to work the way you do, you

405
00:22:05,500 --> 00:22:08,200
don't want a culture of people 
who are all the same. 

406
00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,500
You want people who add to your 
culture but you do want a 

407
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:14,300
culture where people can work in
the modes that you have set up, 

408
00:22:14,300 --> 00:22:19,200
and if part of your mode, Remote
work, finding people who are 

409
00:22:19,208 --> 00:22:22,000
excited about that and feel 
connected to each other because 

410
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,000
of it is a smart thing to focus 
on. 

411
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:26,600
Right. 
And I think you also mentioned 

412
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,500
that sometimes all these things 
like working remotely, being 

413
00:22:29,500 --> 00:22:31,500
part of a group built a swift 
trust, right? 

414
00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:33,800
Even though you just join a 
company, which you didn't know, 

415
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,500
you haven't met any of them, but
you easily can work together, 

416
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:38,800
right? 
Collaborate with each other. 

417
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:40,900
Like, you know, each other for a
long time. 

418
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,900
So I think that's a really, 
really interesting track for me.

419
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:47,600
Like, I started working remotely
also, just after the Endemic. 

420
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,000
Initially, I was a bit 
skeptical, how these things 

421
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,800
would work. 
But yeah over the time after I 

422
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,700
went through it, I think the 
experience taught me a lesson 

423
00:22:55,700 --> 00:22:58,600
that yeah you can actually build
trust even though you never see 

424
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,800
anyone even though maybe 
sometimes in the video meeting, 

425
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,400
sometimes you don't even see the
person because they turn off the

426
00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:08,700
video but still things get done 
and you can build relationships 

427
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:11,800
with people, of course, nothing 
beats the personal experience. 

428
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,200
If you meet them face to face, 
but I think this pandemic and 

429
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,800
remote work setup also taught me
about Truss right. 

430
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,300
Building trust even though you 
don't know any of the 

431
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:22,700
colleagues. 
So another thing that you 

432
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:25,700
mentioned in the beginning is 
about communicating 

433
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:28,100
intentionally in the remote work
setup. 

434
00:23:28,100 --> 00:23:31,900
You need to communicate a lot 
more intentionally and you also 

435
00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:35,600
bring a topic about this that 
communicating more intentionally

436
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,700
actually brings better outcomes.
Can you touch on a little bit of

437
00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:42,000
this? 
How can we bring intentional 

438
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,400
Communications into work 
especially in the remote setup? 

439
00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:48,800
Yeah, so actually I'd like to 
tie the idea of the Swift for us

440
00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,800
to communication. 
So Swift trust is an idea about 

441
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:56,200
how groups with certain 
properties can come together 

442
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,100
very quickly, to have very 
trusting relationships that have

443
00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:04,100
good outcomes. 
And in a workplace setting, the 

444
00:24:04,100 --> 00:24:08,100
canonical example is a movie set
where people have a limited 

445
00:24:08,100 --> 00:24:11,000
project. 
Almost everybody has a 

446
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:15,300
well-defined role and they've 
got a clear goal of what they're

447
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:18,500
trying to do. 
Software can be pretty similar. 

448
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:22,400
So intact, we have a lot of the 
potential for Swift trust in 

449
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:26,300
that. 
It's usually pretty clear what 

450
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:29,500
people's roles are. 
There's often some time frame 

451
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:33,700
that's got some limits on it and
ideally, there's a pretty clear 

452
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:38,000
vision of what we want to do and
so we can benefit from the 

453
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,300
mechanisms of Swift trust. 
If we ensure we have those 

454
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,500
pieces in place. 
So as leader is part of our role

455
00:24:43,500 --> 00:24:46,800
is communicating about what 
we're trying to do to be. 

456
00:24:46,900 --> 00:24:53,100
Very clear about what our 
strategy is for the next year 

457
00:24:53,100 --> 00:24:57,100
and for each quarter and helping
people understand what that 

458
00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:01,800
means for their work, what they 
should prioritize based on our 

459
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:06,000
strategy and what they can do 
prioritize now, that's all 

460
00:25:06,100 --> 00:25:07,300
great. 
Everybody thinks they're doing 

461
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:09,800
that. 
But one thing that's pretty 

462
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,500
clear. 
If you've been in management for

463
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:16,600
an hour and a half, is that you 
have to say things repeatedly. 

464
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:20,800
Many places in different ways 
for it to land for everybody. 

465
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,000
So, if you wanted your whole 
company, whether that company is

466
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:28,000
30, people are like 30,000 
people to be able to tell you 

467
00:25:28,300 --> 00:25:31,400
what the company strategy is 
right now, so that they can make

468
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,000
decisions that are aligned to 
that strategy. 

469
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:38,100
You can imagine you have to be 
able to repeat it a number of 

470
00:25:38,100 --> 00:25:42,700
times in a number of ways at 
Daily were about 60 people right

471
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:48,200
now and we have some very 
specific munication heart beats.

472
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,600
So we do two at the beginning of
the year, I can yearly strategy 

473
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,300
but we know that that's going to
change over time because we take

474
00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:59,200
in information and Tack to new 
information and I'll note to 

475
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,700
we're still a fairly early stage
startup so we are still reaching

476
00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:06,400
a kind of product and sales 
Market fit. 

477
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:09,300
So our strategy is going to 
change in a different Cadence 

478
00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:11,400
than a much bigger and more 
established company. 

479
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,300
But even in bigger companies you
need a lot of heart beats for 

480
00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:16,500
people to know what's going on. 
And in fact the distance between

481
00:26:16,500 --> 00:26:18,900
the Making the decisions about 
the strategy and the people who 

482
00:26:18,900 --> 00:26:21,000
are executing, that gets pretty 
far. 

483
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,500
So you need a lot of ways for 
them to hear what you're saying.

484
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,500
But we think about annual and 
half year, we also do quarterly 

485
00:26:27,500 --> 00:26:32,400
planning and we have very 
specific All Hands where we 

486
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:38,100
share that information and then 
have follow-up Q&A sessions with

487
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,700
written questions and a chance 
for us to respond live and 

488
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:43,600
record those sessions. 
And make sure everybody sees 

489
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:44,900
those. 
And we've got them posted a 

490
00:26:44,908 --> 00:26:48,800
number of places and in between 
In we have two all hands a week 

491
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:53,900
one that's company-wide usually 
about some Department giving a 

492
00:26:53,900 --> 00:26:55,700
presentation. 
Sometimes we talk to a customer 

493
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,300
and then an angel hands because 
about half the company's 

494
00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:00,600
engineering and sometimes we get
more technical. 

495
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,700
We do demos things like that but
we're pretty regular about that 

496
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,000
stuff. 
Like it's twice a week and we 

497
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:10,600
don't let that go. 
We also have every week at the 

498
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,700
beginning of the week, one of 
our Founders shares a week ahead

499
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:16,700
post, talking about some things 
that are coming up. 

500
00:27:16,900 --> 00:27:20,100
Look out for. 
And at the end of the week, 

501
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,300
almost, everybody writes an end 
of week. 

502
00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:25,000
Note about what they worked on 
this past week and what they're 

503
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,900
going to be working on next week
and the founder will highlight 

504
00:27:27,900 --> 00:27:31,100
some of those notes in the week 
ahead as well. 

505
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:33,900
So we have a bunch of ways that 
we stay connected to each other.

506
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,500
Just that's all scheduled. 
It happens all the time. 

507
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,400
And when we have changes to 
things, we're really specific 

508
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,600
about making sure that we've 
announced that, and we have very

509
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,800
dedicated time for Q&A. 
Sometimes we don't have very 

510
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,600
many managers between execs and 
staff of relatively flat still 

511
00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:54,300
because we're just for small, 
but we will also bring in 

512
00:27:54,300 --> 00:27:57,100
managers if that's particularly 
relevant to and make sure 

513
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,500
they've got info to answer 
questions if needed. 

514
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:02,800
So, all of that is kind of table
Stakes, basic good 

515
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:05,800
communication. 
But it's easy to let that go 

516
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,000
when you're not in person and 
becomes much more important when

517
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,600
you're not otherwise seeing each
other altogether in a 

518
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:16,100
distributed environment. 
So, saying things repeatedly, I 

519
00:28:16,100 --> 00:28:17,800
also learn it. 
Hard way, right? 

520
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,000
So especially in the remote 
setup when you don't even know 

521
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,800
where people actually read the 
messages or not, right? 

522
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:28,400
Sometimes you may think that 
they may have not read, it may 

523
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,600
be related to this. 
My question will be, how do you 

524
00:28:30,608 --> 00:28:33,600
actually build accountability of
maybe even for people to 

525
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,300
acknowledge what you said? 
Right? 

526
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,700
And take that as a priorities 
for them. 

527
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:40,800
For example, if we are talking 
about strategy or maybe 

528
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,900
priorities for the team. 
So, is there any tips that you 

529
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:46,200
do normally for building 
accountability? 

530
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:48,800
Especially in The remote work 
setup where sometimes we don't 

531
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,000
get acknowledgement from people 
and we don't know whether they 

532
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,000
actually taking that has the 
same product. 

533
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,400
Yes. 
Yeah. 

534
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,900
So I want to be clear. 
I think about accountability, 

535
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:01,700
not just as taking 
responsibility for what you said

536
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:04,500
you would do or what you've been
told to do, but accountability 

537
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,600
is much more about learning from
what you've done and adjusting. 

538
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:12,400
So everybody will make mistakes 
or wind up working on something 

539
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,200
that the company makes mistakes 
in your involved. 

540
00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:18,000
What I care about when we talk 
about Accountability is, did you

541
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,400
learn from that and adjust? 
And how do you talk about that? 

542
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:25,400
So, people know, so one of the 
ways that and I will say again, 

543
00:29:25,408 --> 00:29:28,400
like this is one of those places
where implicit and explicit 

544
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:32,200
signals are important explicit 
signals for us. 

545
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,600
Might be do people talk in their
end of week about what they 

546
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,000
learned and what they're doing 
differently as a result of what 

547
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,200
they've learned from something 
they did or in team Retros. 

548
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,100
For in the rare incident, we 
don't have that many incidents, 

549
00:29:45,100 --> 00:29:47,900
but when we do having Retros and
being able Oil to make sure that

550
00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:52,500
we've learned from those, that's
all explicit and is important 

551
00:29:52,700 --> 00:29:56,300
but an implicit one that helps 
us figure out if we're 

552
00:29:56,300 --> 00:30:00,600
communicating enough. 
Is that every quarter as we get 

553
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:04,800
toward the end of the quarter, 
people increasingly start asking

554
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,000
for information about strategic 
direction that will help them 

555
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:11,300
make decisions. 
And I think that's a good sign 

556
00:30:11,300 --> 00:30:15,100
that they consider that a really
important input to their own 

557
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,600
day-to-day decision-making. 
And then they'll track toward it

558
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:24,000
because we have repeated 
conversations about our strategy

559
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:27,900
and what's working and what's 
not and how that affects 

560
00:30:27,900 --> 00:30:30,300
people's work. 
So that part of that 

561
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:33,300
conversation, thanks for sharing
that I think it's really 

562
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:36,300
important signal there, right? 
If people are asking for the 

563
00:30:36,300 --> 00:30:38,900
strategies of people ask for 
clarity, I think that's a very 

564
00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:41,300
good signal that. 
You do have a very high 

565
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,500
collaboration, first of all and 
also High accountability because

566
00:30:44,500 --> 00:30:47,700
people want to know from their 
leaders, what Other strategies 

567
00:30:47,700 --> 00:30:50,400
and priorities for them. 
Thanks for sharing that. 

568
00:30:50,500 --> 00:30:53,500
So let's move on maybe to the 
second part of our conversation,

569
00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:56,000
which you mentioned in the 
beginning, in your career 

570
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,400
Journey that you become the 
engineering leaders even though 

571
00:30:59,500 --> 00:31:02,600
you came not from a tech 
background, tell us a little bit

572
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:05,400
about this. 
How did you first of all end up 

573
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,000
in software engineering teams 
and what are the challenges that

574
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,900
you have to overcome when you 
take these jobs? 

575
00:31:12,700 --> 00:31:16,100
Yeah, it's interesting. 
So, as I said earlier, I jumped 

576
00:31:16,100 --> 00:31:21,600
from other Areas of software 
leadership from operations and 

577
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:23,900
marketing and sales into 
engineering. 

578
00:31:24,100 --> 00:31:27,500
When a friend helped recruit me 
into a role in engineering 

579
00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:31,200
leadership. 
And when I joined right before, 

580
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,600
actually, right, before, I 
joined MailChimp, I interviewed 

581
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,900
about 30 friends to find out. 
What did I need to know about 

582
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:42,000
managing Engineers, that was 
going to be magic and special 

583
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:43,800
and different from managing 
other people. 

584
00:31:44,500 --> 00:31:49,800
And 100% of people told me that 
Engineers are just people and 

585
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:53,500
it's the same. 
I think that the myth of what 

586
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:57,400
Engineers are like, was playing 
in my brain in a way that turned

587
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:58,800
out. 
Not to be true because my 

588
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,500
friends were right, turns out 
Engineers are people, too. 

589
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:06,500
And there are certainly company 
cultures and engineering 

590
00:32:06,500 --> 00:32:08,800
department, cultures and 
individual teams have cultures. 

591
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,400
But there's not a monolithic. 
Here's how Engineers behave or 

592
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:18,800
even particularly strong. 
Trends that are different from 

593
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,000
other kinds of departments. 
So I think one of the things 

594
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:25,000
that I have learned is that 
leadership is leadership. 

595
00:32:25,100 --> 00:32:29,900
And in software, we have 
different risks than in other 

596
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,200
kinds of businesses. 
And it's also the case that 

597
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,500
you've different risks at 
different stages of your 

598
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:38,800
business, early stage, or later 
stage, and you have to manage to

599
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,000
those things specifically. 
But there are not hugely 

600
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,400
different things that you have 
to do in engineering versus 

601
00:32:46,700 --> 00:32:49,200
marketing. 
For example, I think it's a very

602
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,300
unique thing, right? 
Whenever we spoke about 

603
00:32:51,300 --> 00:32:53,900
engineers, some people will have
different perception. 

604
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:56,800
Oh, they are Engineers, your, 
you know, they need a different 

605
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,700
kind of treatment. 
They are like, I don't know. 

606
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:01,200
Like some special people, 
especially in the tech, 

607
00:33:01,200 --> 00:33:03,300
companies, we have plenty of 
Engineers. 

608
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,000
And yeah, like we can see some 
Engineers who acted like a diva 

609
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,200
or more like a geek, which are 
sometimes difficult to work 

610
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,000
with. 
But I think what you said sounds

611
00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,000
true, right? 
At the end of the day they are 

612
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,200
just Human After All or they are
just people. 

613
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:20,200
And Leadership is also about 
managing people well or 

614
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,900
effectively. 
I think the advice for listeners

615
00:33:22,900 --> 00:33:26,000
here is don't treat managing 
Engineers as totally different 

616
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,000
things than managing other ploys
in a different parts of the 

617
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,600
companies, but treat them as 
also like people, which brings 

618
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,500
to the leadership qualities, 
right? 

619
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:37,900
So what do you think are some of
the leadership qualities that 

620
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:39,700
work? 
Well, even though you come from 

621
00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:43,900
non-tech and you apply it as 
well, in the engineering set up 

622
00:33:43,900 --> 00:33:46,600
as well, one of the most 
important thing. 

623
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:51,600
Things is being able to 
understand where we have risks 

624
00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:55,900
and opportunities and making 
sure that we're having those 

625
00:33:55,900 --> 00:33:59,100
conversations. 
So that's both reinforcing 

626
00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:01,500
what's our strategy and what are
the risks and opportunities in 

627
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:06,100
our strategy but also in the 
mechanics of how we're building 

628
00:34:06,100 --> 00:34:10,900
things are we investing in the 
right kinds of technology and 

629
00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:13,800
processes? 
And people are we building to 

630
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:16,500
deeply without getting 
information about whether people

631
00:34:16,500 --> 00:34:19,400
want? 
The product, for example, are we

632
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,800
building too quickly and not 
taking into account, security 

633
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,000
risks, or reliability risks, 
that we can already see on the 

634
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,400
horizon? 
These things shift, of course, 

635
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,800
as I said earlier, stage of your
company age of your company 

636
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:37,000
tight, like, whether your B2B, 
or b2c, all of those kind of 

637
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,199
affect how you think about 
things, but being able to bring 

638
00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:44,400
those perspectives into your 
leadership, and into your work, 

639
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,500
with teams and individuals. 
It is critical of course, in any

640
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:50,300
management role, but 
particularly in software where 

641
00:34:50,300 --> 00:34:54,300
our risks are often very high 
and in different places than you

642
00:34:54,300 --> 00:34:56,500
might expect from other kinds of
experiences. 

643
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,800
So how about if you actually 
being asked by the engineers for

644
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,600
some technical advice? 
So I think this is sometimes the

645
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,200
gotcha for some of these 
managers who came not from the 

646
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,400
strong technical background, 
sometimes the team has a 

647
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:13,200
challenge. 
Maybe, for example, even option 

648
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,200
A and option b, what should we 
do? 

649
00:35:15,500 --> 00:35:17,900
So how do you actually Overcome 
that challenge, right? 

650
00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:22,200
Whenever the team is trying to 
resolve a certain technical 

651
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,000
problems. 
Of course, the go-to person 

652
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,100
would be the manager. 
Do you find this as a challenge?

653
00:35:27,100 --> 00:35:30,400
And if so, how do you actually 
face The Challenge and actually 

654
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,600
gave them a good solution? 
Yeah, most of the time when 

655
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,600
people are coming to me, their 
challenges are technical 

656
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,200
challenges but within the 
context of a business problem, 

657
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:44,800
what does the customer want? 
What's our strategy do we have 

658
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,000
the right people? 
Or there's like, Act on the 

659
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:48,600
team. 
And how do we make choices 

660
00:35:48,700 --> 00:35:51,500
within that context? 
And I can partner with people to

661
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,200
help them figure out what are 
the right questions to ask him, 

662
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,100
what are some of the options? 
And sometimes we brainstorm 

663
00:35:57,100 --> 00:35:59,700
together and sometimes I'm just 
sort of coaching them thinking 

664
00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:01,600
through things. 
Everybody who works with me, 

665
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:03,400
knows my background like it's 
rare that people are coming to 

666
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,100
me with specific technical 
questions. 

667
00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:08,200
It's usually looking for more 
context and help making a 

668
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:10,500
decision. 
But sometimes people do need, 

669
00:36:10,500 --> 00:36:13,600
technical help. 
And part of my role is to know 

670
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:17,300
when somebody needs help that. 
I can't provide And helping make

671
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:19,700
sure they get connected to 
people in the organization who 

672
00:36:19,700 --> 00:36:22,300
can or sometimes people outside 
the organization who can help 

673
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:23,900
us. 
Sometimes we need expertise, we 

674
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:26,900
don't have. 
And having a big network of 

675
00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:29,900
people that I can contact and 
work with. 

676
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:33,000
If we need expertise we don't 
have is part of my role to. 

677
00:36:33,300 --> 00:36:36,300
But I think it's actually in 
some ways. 

678
00:36:36,300 --> 00:36:39,600
This funny strength of not being
able, I can't just answer a 

679
00:36:39,607 --> 00:36:43,300
technical question, helping 
people figure out how to find 

680
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,400
the answer and especially if the
answer resides somewhere else in

681
00:36:46,408 --> 00:36:50,300
the Organization giving other 
people the ability to share 

682
00:36:50,300 --> 00:36:52,000
their expertise and figure 
things out. 

683
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,300
Together is hugely beneficial 
for teams. 

684
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,200
I don't mean to suggest that all
engineering leaders should be 

685
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,000
non-engineers but I think there 
are sometimes some silver lining

686
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,500
to it. 
We can take advantage of. 

687
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,500
Yeah, so you wrote this also in 
your block right. 

688
00:37:06,500 --> 00:37:10,800
There are some benefits for the 
managers of being non-technical 

689
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:13,000
maybe you can share a little bit
more. 

690
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,700
What are some of the benefits 
that you experience and maybe 

691
00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:18,700
for you to also, Tips for the 
engineering managers or 

692
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:22,000
engineering leaders out there 
who are non-technical background

693
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,100
as well. 
Yeah, well, I mean, I never 

694
00:37:24,100 --> 00:37:26,200
micromanage anybody's 
engineering. 

695
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,300
That's a non-issue, but I think 
it's also important to know that

696
00:37:31,700 --> 00:37:35,200
I'm a little bit unusual as a 
nun engineer, but it is usually 

697
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:38,100
the case, especially as 
companies get bigger and older 

698
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:41,700
that people in senior 
engineering leadership roles. 

699
00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:45,700
Don't touch the code and aren't 
making huge. 

700
00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:49,100
Technical Ian's on their own and
the ones they are making or 

701
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:52,000
they're doing collaboratively 
and not very often. 

702
00:37:52,300 --> 00:37:54,300
I'll talk a little more about 
some of the details but I think 

703
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:57,400
it's actually not that unusual. 
That a lot of what I do is kind 

704
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,300
of what most engineering leaders
do but as I said I'm not 

705
00:38:00,300 --> 00:38:04,800
micromanaging, anybody usually 
tech leads on the teams and the 

706
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:07,100
EMS and the team the engineering
managers and the teams that I 

707
00:38:07,107 --> 00:38:10,100
work with, have a real chance to
grow as Leaders themselves. 

708
00:38:10,500 --> 00:38:14,600
I need them to be good partners 
and to help work with me so that

709
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,500
they can bring information about
technical. 

710
00:38:16,900 --> 00:38:19,600
Opportunities and risks. 
And I can bring information 

711
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,200
about business opportunities and
risks and we can make good 

712
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,400
decisions together and we both 
grow in that environment. 

713
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,400
So I think of that, it's part of
like, the satisfaction of the 

714
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,100
job, but I think it's also 
potentially a benefit for other 

715
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:35,100
people. 
A funny benefit is that nobody 

716
00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:37,900
ever expects me to know about 
the technology, so I can ask 

717
00:38:37,900 --> 00:38:41,300
anything at all. 
And sometimes that gives 

718
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:43,200
Engineers a chance to teach me 
things. 

719
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,400
Or a lot of times, the EMS who 
work with me, teach me a ton. 

720
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:49,600
They Teach me this stuff every 
day and that has a nice 

721
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:53,300
balancing effect in our status 
and our trust. 

722
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,900
I think it's trust building when
they teach me things. 

723
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:59,500
So it's not just a one 
unidirectional kind of 

724
00:38:59,508 --> 00:39:05,100
relationship and I think it's 
easy for me to help focus on the

725
00:39:05,100 --> 00:39:08,600
business on the strategy on 
communicating about the business

726
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,600
needs because I don't tend to 
get lost in the technical 

727
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,000
details. 
That's not the nature of the 

728
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,400
conversation. 
I'm going to have and I can keep

729
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,100
going. 
In the business context so they 

730
00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:21,000
can keep making good decisions 
and asking good questions to 

731
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:22,900
make sure we're moving the 
direction we want to go. 

732
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,900
So how about if let's say you 
work on a specific things, 

733
00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:29,100
right? 
And you do really need sometimes

734
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:32,800
a technical contexts. 
So how do you actually upscale 

735
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,200
yourself or learning? 
Because intact? 

736
00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,100
I was, especially, we have so 
many things. 

737
00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:39,500
You can't definitely cover 
everything, right? 

738
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:43,400
But how do you actually as a 
engineering leaders yourself up,

739
00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:47,300
skill on a certain area in order
to catch up or Be in sync with 

740
00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:50,400
the rest of the team. 
Do you have any tips how to 

741
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,900
learn by yourself or self? 
Learn about stuffs? 

742
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,600
Yeah, so I have a few things 
that I do. 

743
00:39:56,800 --> 00:40:00,500
First of all, as I said, I asked
the people in my organization to

744
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:04,500
teach me things all the time, 
whether that's ICS or other 

745
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,800
managers and sometimes our 
founder, who one of our Founders

746
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:09,900
is very technical and wrote our 
early systems. 

747
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,100
I asked questions a lot for 
people who work with me but I 

748
00:40:14,100 --> 00:40:18,500
also have a couple of group That
I'm in with other people in 

749
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:20,300
Tech. 
And what I think is really 

750
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:22,800
interesting about, those is a 
lot of times. 

751
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,400
There are a lot of engineers in 
those groups, who ask each other

752
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,300
questions, who don't know about 
anything at all, like, it could 

753
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:34,500
be about a language, or about 
containerization, or could be 

754
00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:38,900
the whole range of small kinds 
of projects to Major 

755
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:41,700
implementation details and they 
asked each other because nobody 

756
00:40:41,700 --> 00:40:44,600
can have had all of the 
experiences you would need at 

757
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:47,900
this point to run complex. 
Technical projects. 

758
00:40:48,100 --> 00:40:51,500
So I don't have any hesitation 
about asking people to teach me 

759
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:53,400
technical things over, but I 
sometimes have a little bit of 

760
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,600
like, oh, am I going to be 
asking a dumb question, and what

761
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:58,900
I find is all the time, people 
are excited to share their 

762
00:40:58,900 --> 00:41:02,200
expertise and literally, 
everybody in the group chats is 

763
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,400
asking each other stuff to learn
and share information. 

764
00:41:05,700 --> 00:41:09,000
And then sometimes I read to, I 
tend to read more and listen to 

765
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,100
podcasts and taken other kinds 
of Media Watch talks. 

766
00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:15,700
And things, I tend to read more 
about software development than 

767
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:19,700
about Ring, but sometimes the 
bits about software, like, 

768
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,700
technical details about, I don't
know, databases or something, 

769
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,700
get in a way that I find useful 
over time. 

770
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:30,100
So I think still the key here is
that don't be afraid of asking 

771
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:32,900
questions, even though with your
direct reports, right? 

772
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:36,900
The hesitation will be there for
sure, but I think the key is not

773
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:40,300
be afraid to ask to anyone so 
that they can help you actually 

774
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:43,300
to fill in the details of 
context and actually in the end 

775
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:45,000
it will help in making 
decisions. 

776
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,300
Right? 
Because I think some of our 

777
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:48,900
people People actually do rely 
on the leaders to make good 

778
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:53,300
decisions for them as well. 
So you also mention that not all

779
00:41:53,300 --> 00:41:57,600
companies actually receptive to 
the idea of engineering leaders 

780
00:41:57,600 --> 00:41:59,700
who come from non-technical 
background. 

781
00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:02,200
Do you have some experience 
around this, and what should 

782
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,800
people do? 
In order to see whether this 

783
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,800
company, actually, accepting 
people coming from non-technical

784
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,700
background as a leader? 
Yeah, well, I will say it's not 

785
00:42:12,900 --> 00:42:15,900
appropriate for every company at
every stage, like some 

786
00:42:15,900 --> 00:42:20,100
companies, Especially earlier, 
stage need, technical leaders 

787
00:42:20,100 --> 00:42:22,300
who can do some of the coding. 
Like you kind of need all hands 

788
00:42:22,300 --> 00:42:26,500
on deck and as companies grow, 
it becomes you get farther and 

789
00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:28,200
farther away from the GitHub 
account. 

790
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:33,900
But I think it's also the case 
that you want to be as a leader.

791
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:37,200
You want to be trusted and you 
want to be able to trust the 

792
00:42:37,207 --> 00:42:40,700
people you're working with. 
And if a company has a really 

793
00:42:40,700 --> 00:42:44,600
strong bias in just doesn't 
believe that a non engineer 

794
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:48,600
could lead Engineers being The 
first one in that situation 

795
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:52,300
would be hard, it would be hard 
to feel trusted and for them to 

796
00:42:52,300 --> 00:42:55,500
trust you. 
So I would be cautious about 

797
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,500
that especially in a younger 
company in the place where I've 

798
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:01,500
encountered at the, most is 
recruiters, who for whatever 

799
00:43:01,500 --> 00:43:06,200
reason, don't realize I'm not an
engineer contact me and then 

800
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:07,100
when it turns out I'm not 
really. 

801
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:08,900
Well, of course, these Founders 
are working with would never 

802
00:43:08,900 --> 00:43:10,700
hire a nun engineer. 
And I'm like, I don't, why are 

803
00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:15,000
we in this composition? 
But I do think that for 

804
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:19,700
companies that have Strong 
engineering culture already. 

805
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,600
It's probably pretty rare that 
you need another technical 

806
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:25,700
decision maker. 
What you need is, somebody who 

807
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:29,400
can help tie engineering to the 
business needs and can make sure

808
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:33,200
that you got the right systems 
for making good decisions that 

809
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,800
you are getting good inputs. 
There are the right people in 

810
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,500
the room for making good 
decisions and that you can 

811
00:43:38,500 --> 00:43:42,000
collectively understand benefits
and trade-offs of different 

812
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:43,900
directions. 
What that will mean short-term 

813
00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:46,100
and long-term and that you can 
think about that. 

814
00:43:46,500 --> 00:43:51,100
Lately for your stage of company
and that does not require a 

815
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:55,100
super deep engineer. 
And again, the bigger the 

816
00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:57,800
decision them less often you're 
making them in the more people 

817
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,800
have voices in it. 
So it's sort of thinking about 

818
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,200
that as more of a process that 
you want to be really healthy 

819
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,600
and strong and aligned to the 
business. 

820
00:44:06,900 --> 00:44:09,500
I think points, you toward 
people who have a lot of 

821
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:12,900
business experience in software,
rather than towards people who 

822
00:44:12,900 --> 00:44:15,900
necessarily have deep technical 
expertise, when you can bring 

823
00:44:15,900 --> 00:44:18,000
that into the Room from other 
folks. 

824
00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:21,200
So I think the few key lessons 
that I picked from what you 

825
00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,100
shared is that. 
Yeah, different stages of 

826
00:44:23,100 --> 00:44:26,100
company requires different kind 
of leaders especially in the 

827
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:28,600
early stage where probably you 
need to cover so many things 

828
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,800
including coding and the other 
thing is that for like slightly 

829
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,400
bigger or maybe more, scalable 
type of companies, you probably 

830
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,700
don't need all much deep 
technical kind of leaders 

831
00:44:39,700 --> 00:44:42,800
because you will need to make 
strategies good decisions. 

832
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,400
Tying up with the business, 
right? 

833
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:47,400
How you strategize together? 
Product and Engineering 

834
00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:49,100
together. 
So that we built the good 

835
00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:52,800
product for users and for people
who are still thinking that as a

836
00:44:52,808 --> 00:44:56,600
tech company, you need to hire 
just engineering background 

837
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:59,200
leaders. 
Maybe this is also a proof that 

838
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,500
you don't actually need to 
always hire the technical 

839
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,400
background kind of leaders 
because it can also work 

840
00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:08,300
especially when you want to make
good business decisions aligning

841
00:45:08,300 --> 00:45:10,400
with the tech. 
So, thanks for sharing all this 

842
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,400
Sarah. 
I think a lot of listeners here 

843
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:14,500
would learn a lot from this 
conversation. 

844
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,000
Yeah. 
So before we Wrap up our 

845
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,700
conversation, actually. 
I have one last question that I 

846
00:45:19,700 --> 00:45:23,300
always ask from all my guests, 
which I call the three technical

847
00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:26,100
leadership wisdom. 
So think of it like an advice 

848
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:28,700
that you want to give to our 
listeners here, maybe from your 

849
00:45:28,700 --> 00:45:30,600
experience or from your 
expertise. 

850
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:32,700
Could you share? 
Maybe your tree technique 

851
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:33,800
wisdom? 
Sarah. 

852
00:45:34,900 --> 00:45:39,500
Yeah, so I have a few things 
these I think are all true for 

853
00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:43,100
all companies but especially 
true for software companies. 

854
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,000
So the first one is something 
I've said here a couple of times

855
00:45:46,000 --> 00:45:50,200
which is that it's really 
important to understand the 

856
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,600
stage of your company and the 
kind of risks you face at your 

857
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,600
stage and make decisions that 
are appropriate and remind other

858
00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:00,800
people about that the other 
people that you work with all 

859
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,900
the time. 
So it's for example, typically 

860
00:46:04,100 --> 00:46:07,800
In earlier stage companies, your
biggest risk is that nobody will

861
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:12,700
buy or use your product. 
And so it's not as important 

862
00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:15,800
that you're caring about 
security and reliability, unless

863
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:19,200
that's the nature of your 
product, but most products not 

864
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:21,900
the case. 
And you want to really make sure

865
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:25,700
that you're building quickly and
in a way that lets you get 

866
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:30,000
feedback from customers early 
and often so that you aren't 

867
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,500
building stuff that no one's 
going to buy as you get bigger, 

868
00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:37,700
you have Kinds of risk, 
reliability security, sometimes 

869
00:46:37,900 --> 00:46:40,800
increased legal risk, and a 
number of other kinds of things.

870
00:46:40,800 --> 00:46:43,400
You have to shift some of your 
decision-making and that's 

871
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,000
partly why companies, slow down,
as you get bigger. 

872
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,700
But you want to be careful that 
you understand your context and 

873
00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:54,400
that you're building the 
software, and the company for 

874
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:57,100
the right stage that you're in, 
and you're reminding other 

875
00:46:57,100 --> 00:46:59,500
people about that all the time, 
because everybody forgets. 

876
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:04,700
So that's one a little bit 
related to that is The idea that

877
00:47:04,700 --> 00:47:07,800
you should build and ship the 
smallest, things that you can 

878
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:11,500
that potentially add value for 
your customers. 

879
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:15,000
Now, that's an idea. 
That's pretty well established 

880
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,700
and software these days, we try 
to get away from like a 

881
00:47:17,707 --> 00:47:20,400
waterfall and it's two years 
away and will ship a thing and 

882
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:22,400
maybe it'll be useful and maybe 
it won't. 

883
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:24,500
We're going to try to build in 
smaller pieces. 

884
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,000
I didn't that's still there 
tends to be a little bit of 

885
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:31,600
regression to the mean of 
shipping later and in bigger 

886
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:35,700
pieces and reminding people. 
The time and giving them ways to

887
00:47:35,700 --> 00:47:39,700
make decisions so they can ship 
more quickly and see value and 

888
00:47:39,700 --> 00:47:42,000
learn as they're going is really
useful. 

889
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,400
And you can do that outside of 
the software itself. 

890
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,100
Like it's completely true that 
you can think about processes 

891
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:53,000
and meetings and documents. 
All of that can be thought of in

892
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,400
smaller pieces, that move more 
quickly. 

893
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,700
So you can get value earlier or 
determine that you're not adding

894
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:02,500
value. 
And again you need to adjust for

895
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:06,100
the size and stage of your Any. 
But thinking about shipping more

896
00:48:06,100 --> 00:48:09,200
quickly and having fewer 
dependencies learning as you go 

897
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:14,300
incredibly valuable and then I 
would say to It's Easy in any 

898
00:48:14,300 --> 00:48:19,700
company but it's especially easy
and software to have 10 or 15 

899
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,300
strategic priorities which means
you have no strategic 

900
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:24,800
priorities. 
That as a leader, you have to 

901
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,800
really be able to say these are 
our priorities and we're going 

902
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:32,100
to work on them and we want to 
make decisions around these and 

903
00:48:32,100 --> 00:48:33,900
we're going to back burner some 
other things. 

904
00:48:34,100 --> 00:48:36,000
Not going to work on this right 
now. 

905
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,300
We're going to work on it in a 
much lower level rather than 

906
00:48:39,300 --> 00:48:41,400
saying everything is a priority 
and you have to get everything 

907
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,200
done, you get so much less out 
of people. 

908
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:48,600
First of all, they feel like 
they can't work effectively but 

909
00:48:48,600 --> 00:48:52,100
also they don't work. 
Effectively people can't work 

910
00:48:52,100 --> 00:48:55,200
without a sense of what's most 
important to the company. 

911
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,500
And how should they focus their 
resources and that's true. 

912
00:48:58,500 --> 00:49:01,800
Whether you have 30 people, or 
30,000, even if you have a 

913
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:05,000
seemingly unlimited number of 
people, they have limited amount

914
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,600
of time. 
They all have to make decisions 

915
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,400
about what's important and what 
they should be working on. 

916
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,100
And so helping them have a 
really strong sense of those 

917
00:49:13,100 --> 00:49:14,900
different. 
What should you work on? 

918
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:18,800
And what should you not is a 
real leadership Advantage? 

919
00:49:19,500 --> 00:49:22,300
Wow, I really love all of them. 
Especially the last one because 

920
00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:24,500
especially in an early stage 
startup sometimes it could 

921
00:49:24,500 --> 00:49:27,200
happen that you have so many 
strategic priorities. 

922
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:28,900
Sometimes he could be a lot of 
pivot. 

923
00:49:28,900 --> 00:49:31,700
Sometimes it could be a new 
customers feedback coming in 

924
00:49:31,900 --> 00:49:35,500
that we have to somehow meet. 
So I think yeah, privatizing 

925
00:49:35,500 --> 00:49:37,800
strategies don't overload our 
people. 

926
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,700
So that they are confused at the
end of the day and not be able 

927
00:49:40,700 --> 00:49:43,400
to work effectively, thanks for 
sharing this wisdom. 

928
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,900
So Sarah, if people want to 
connect with you or want to 

929
00:49:47,000 --> 00:49:50,000
discuss some things further, 
like the remote work or being 

930
00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,600
engineering leader, is there a 
place where they can find you 

931
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:56,800
online? 
Yeah, so my website has all the 

932
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,500
ways to connect with me and it's
Sarah. 

933
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:03,900
Milstein.com SAR, aah. 
Am i l St? 

934
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,800
Een nice. 
Okay, I'll put that in the show 

935
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:09,100
notes as well. 
So thank Sarah for this talk. 

936
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:12,100
I really learned a lot from you 
today and we thank you so much. 

937
00:50:12,100 --> 00:50:17,700
It's been a pleasure Thank you 
for listening to this episode 

938
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,100
and for staying, right until the
end, if you're highly enjoyed 

939
00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:23,900
it, I would appreciate if you 
share it with your friends and 

940
00:50:23,900 --> 00:50:26,900
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

941
00:50:26,900 --> 00:50:28,900
this episode. 
And if you are new to the 

942
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:31,900
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

943
00:50:31,900 --> 00:50:34,500
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot. 

944
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:36,500
In order to grow this podcast 
better. 

945
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:39,800
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

946
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:43,900
the episode page, at Tech Legion
l.f website, including the full 

947
00:50:43,900 --> 00:50:47,300
transcript enter, I think words 
and links to the resources 

948
00:50:47,300 --> 00:50:51,300
mention from the conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

949
00:50:51,300 --> 00:50:54,900
subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on pack leader dot f to get

950
00:50:54,900 --> 00:50:57,100
notified for any future 
episodes. 

951
00:50:57,600 --> 00:51:00,000
Stay tuned for the next 
technology, another episode. 

952
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,000
And until then goodbye,