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There is no permanent failure 
and there's no guarantee of 

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success, either. 
What you define success. 

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What you define as failure is 
really tested definition. 

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They are no permanent failures 
because it's just one data point

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for you to know that there is 
something that you could do 

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better, could improve and could 
just try a different way of 

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doing things. 
Hey, everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya Vera 
Wang. 

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And you're listening to the 
tekhelet journal. 

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The show will be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders 

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practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

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discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Welcome to another episode of 

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the tekhelet journal podcast 
with me, Ojos, Henry Surya wera 

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00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:00,400
one. 
If you have been enjoying the 

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00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,500
podcast and would like to follow
any new updates coming out of 

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00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:05,800
the show. 
You can subscribe to our e-mail 

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list at technology, you know, 
dot f, or you can also follow 

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our social media channels on 
LinkedIn or Twitter. 

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I've been very encouraged by 
some of your likes, your posts, 

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your sharing, and your retweets,
on those channels. 

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And I hope that more of them can
keep coming in order to spread 

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this podcast. 
Has two more people out there 

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and if you would like to pledge 
your support and contribute back

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to the show, make sure to check 
out our patreon page at tackling

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Journal dot f / Patron. 
I will greatly appreciate your 

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contribution and it would help 
me towards achieving a goal that

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I'm currently running on the 
page for today's episode. 

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I had the pleasure to chat with 
Chancellor Shan Shan Shan is the

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CEO of SBI digital, a leading 
energy, utilities group in 

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Singapore, and Asia, Pacific 
Sasha. 

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Is well-known in the southeast 
Asia Texan and is also widely 

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known as Singapore, code father,
before he becomes the CEO of HP 

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digital. 
He's already highly regarded as 

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a prominent engineer book author
and an active contributor in the

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community. 
He wrote a number of programming

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books covering go and Ruby and 
has a series of popular articles

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about go. 
He ran go for corn Singapore. 

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The largest gold conference in 
Southeast. 

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Asia scenes, 2017 and his 
illustrious. 

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Serious. 
Career also includes leading 

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engineering teams at PayPal. 
Yahoo and HP labs, and last year

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in 2019. 
He won the executive of the year

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for utilities award at Singapore
Business Review management. 

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Excellence awards, recognizing 
all his great achievements 

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leading digital transformation 
Journey at SP digital in this 

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conversation. 
He shared with me about the 

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digital transformation Journey 
that he embarked in Sp digital 

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including some of the success 
and failure stories. 

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He also shared why he decided to
take on the CEO role at a speed 

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digital and unconventional 
career decision for someone who 

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is highly Technical and has 
always been leading multiple 

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engineering teams, previously. 
It is really, really inspiring 

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to hear what he has done and I 
do hope you enjoyed this 

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conversation. 
But before we start the episode,

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I just like to mention that you 
will hear some background noises

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at some parts of the recording, 
be the construction noise, and 

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mobile notification sounds. 
And I do apologize if it causes 

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inconvenience for some of you 
sometimes, life does get in a 

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way, but I do believe that you 
will still learn a lot from this

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conversation. 
So without further Ado, let's 

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get started. 
Are you start up in software 

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development Which is less than 
five years old. 

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00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:45,000
If yes our sponsor at jetbrains 
have a 50% startup discount 

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To find out more search for 

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jetbrains startup discount offer
or you can check out the link 

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00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:04,000
mention in the show notes. 
Eyes are showing welcome to the 

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technology, you know, episode. 
It's very good to see you here. 

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Thanks, Henry. 
Thanks for inviting me. 

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Yeah, so sorry. 
Shawn before we start the 

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conversation. 
I would like to introduce you to

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our audience here. 
So it's all shown is one of the 

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tech leaders in Singapore, very 
well known in the industry and 

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the community just to mention 
some of the roles that you have 

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been before. 
For a you've been with Yahoo 

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engineering team as a director 
of engineering. 

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You've been with HP Labs, 
Singapore as a director. 

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You've also spent your time at 
PayPal as a director of global 

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consumer engineering. 
And you currently work at SP 

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digital as the CEO. 
So social maybe to start with. 

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Can you share with us your 
career Journey? 

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What are your major turning 
point in your career that you 

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can share with us here for all 
to learn? 

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Sure. 
I would say really learned. 

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I'm just sharing and maybe I'll 
just talk about my career. 

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I would say I have Interesting 
career path and not quite sure 

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whether it is something that 
most technical people go true. 

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But I think I'm a personal my 
times. 

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I really been through this 
history of the tech industry in 

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Singapore for the past 25 years.
So I came out from the 

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University and tu9 going 
Technological University in 95 

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and within this 25 years. 
I spent maybe roughly about 10 

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years in different set up, 
slightly less than 10 years in 

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American embassies. 
And for the rest of the time. 

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I spent most of it in my current
role. 

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Singapore, power. 
She's a security company. 

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I actually did my own setup 
which consistently was right? 

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Smack into the God calm days. 
It was a software startup. 

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Basically. 
What I did was I invented some 

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software at a point in time and 
I was kind of new revolutionary 

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even and so decided to came out,
got some funding and did that 

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start up? 
Sold it off after going through 

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the.com days and then promptly 
joined another startup. 

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So went from one set up to 
another one and the help to 

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bring it up to a certain stage. 
Where again, we sold it off. 

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Another organization and so on. 
So that is pretty exciting peer 

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my time. 
But after a while doing startups

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sort of lost its luster and 
wanted to get a little bit more 

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into the corporate Tech world. 
And so trying to couple of 

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American embassies including 
Yahoo, which I think was very 

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exciting times and HP where I 
started off the HP labs in 

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Singapore, one of the seven 
Global labs and we were doing 

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cloud computing, research. 
Very, very interesting 

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experience. 
Managing Engineers, software 

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engineers and research. 
Itís at the same time. 

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And finally, I also joined 
PayPal spend some time there and

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building up initially, a 
regional team, to develop 

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solutions for the region, but 
eventually, after a 

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reorganization within, PayPal 
was part of a global team to 

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develop consumer products, and 
finally, of course, for the past

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four plus years. 
I have been in Singapore power 

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or doing digital transformation.
I was asked to help lead the 

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efforts, in transforming the 
organization. 

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Utility business is pretty 
conservative. 

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I would say it's What about 
reliability? 

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So it's about safety. 
It's about operations. 

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I think it is antithetical to 
software development where it's 

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about being a jowl, being able 
to create and be able to launch 

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products quickly. 
So it is direct opposite of 

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start-up. 
You talking about feel fast. 

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So that's a very, very different
kind of mindset in utilities and

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having that change to moving 
away from just being an 

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operator, but also being a 
solution provider being a 

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running products creating 
products and selling products. 

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I think that was the Massive 
change that I had the honor of 

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being cut off and after a couple
of years of leading the 

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transformation within I was 
given the opportunity to run the

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company to take on a role where 
I run the pnl for actual 

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company. 
To take our products that we 

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developed, and go run in the 
market, sell it to actual 

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customers who are paying real 
dollars to US, helping to create

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more efficient processes and 
driving efficiency, and 

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Effectiveness internally, 
whether it's something very 

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different that SP has That was 
done in the past. 

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I think we have done pretty 
successfully for the past year 

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and a half. 
Two years. 

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We have sold to customers like 
Changi Airport, samko Marine and

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to you, my alma mater. 
Basically. 

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We went back and we sold them a 
software to manage the smart 

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meters, within the campus, and 
many more. 

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I think we have pretty decent 
products that we are going 

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attacking the market and in the 
past, couple days has been a 

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couple of announcements as well 
from SP group talking about our 

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investment and our joint 
projects overseas and SP digital

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is rights. 
Back in the middle of it. 

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So I think we are. 
There. 

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We are still going the stupid of
a journey, but I think we are on

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a good path right now. 
So that's really a 5-7 minute 

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can help description of my 
career so far. 

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Hopefully that was useful for 
some people but definitely it's 

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not something that's very 
conventional. 

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I think in terms of being a 
software developer from 

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beginning to end. 
I've taken a lot of different 

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paths and lot of different birds
from being an engineer to being 

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a CTO to being now a CEO of a 
company. 

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That's actually you're very, 
very The change. 

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Thanks for sharing that. 
So before we go into your 

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interesting Journey with SP 
digital, I notice here, 

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especially from your career, 
right? 

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You have been in multiple 
different types of company from 

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like, startups Enterprise, 
American MNC Tech and now even 

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going back to government-linked 
company. 

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So what are some of the things 
that stood out in terms of 

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difference between all these 
types of company? 

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If you can share? 
Yeah, actually, the truth is 

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most of these companies whether 
it's my own setup or the 

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American tech companies. 
Or even as we digital, I think 

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the Mainstay is, there are Tech 
hookers in most part. 

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My role has been quite constant 
and sometimes I joke with 

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people. 
I know I've been many companies 

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but really only had one job 
basically which is to run 

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engineering teams for companies.
Other than my current role being

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the CEO. 
The main tasks that I've been 

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doing for. 
Most of my career for 20 years 

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has been in Engineering 
Management how you run a 

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software development team to 
develop and release software 

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products. 
So, let's go to the SP digital I

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mean, from Singapore point of 
view. 

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I think it's pretty remarkable 
transformation. 

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I would say, especially hearing 
what you said earlier about. 

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It's a utility Energy company 
where it's like antithetical to 

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what a gel software development 
should be. 

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And you have successfully run 
the digital transformation in 

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the last two, three, four years.
So, can you share with the 

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audience here? 
How do you actually bring about 

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digital transformation to the 
company? 

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So, how do you start initially? 
Well, I've never done this prior

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to this job. 
So I would Not say that there is

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a particular rule book or 
process that I used to do this. 

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00:10:26,900 --> 00:10:29,600
Even when I first started about 
slightly more than four years 

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00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:32,900
ago, digital transformation is 
relatively a new term and 

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00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:36,400
phenomena in most companies and 
a lot of companies were trying 

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00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:38,900
their hand at it. 
You were trying to see how can I

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00:10:38,900 --> 00:10:42,100
use this new digital 
Technologies to try to develop 

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00:10:42,100 --> 00:10:43,800
something. 
How do I change from? 

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What? 
Work to something else because 

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of the pressures of the industry
because the pressures of 

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Technologies and so on. 
So a lot of companies were 

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trying and it and I think Even 
at that point, I think of a 

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power really had no idea what it
means and what it takes to do 

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00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:01,200
that and jumping into, it was a 
leap of faith or what could 

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00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,000
possibly be. 
And also a leap of faith in and 

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00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:06,900
trusting this to somebody like 
me who has also never done it 

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00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:09,200
before. 
So I think that Journey has been

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00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,600
kind of interesting. 
I explained earlier on that 

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utilities have always been 
operator. 

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So the main job over utility has
always been to take large 

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Machinery, Transformers 
switchgear, cables, run the 

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00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,600
network operator. 
That work is always been 

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operational job. 
And there's always been 

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something that people do with 
large pieces of machine and each

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piece of equipment is tens of 
millions of dollars. 

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So it's not as if I built 
something or buy something today

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and then tomorrow, I threw it 
away. 

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It doesn't work. 
You're not going to throw away 

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00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,200
that piece of equipment for the 
next 30, 40 years. 

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If anything goes, you got to 
repair it. 

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That's a typical operations kind
of organization, but obviously 

233
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within the energy and utility 
industry things have changed 

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very, very drastically over the 
past 10 years due to Renewables,

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but Renewables is not the only 
thing. 

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Look at the technology set of 
emerge like energy storage. 

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For example, if you look at 
electricity from a physical 

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point of view, once electricity 
is regenerated. 

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It has to be consumed. 
We transmitted transported 

240
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somewhere else because you the 
major ways of storing 

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electricity. 
It's things like come Hydro, 

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where you would use electricity 
itself to pump water up to a 

243
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height. 
And then when you need the 

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electricity again, you release 
the walls, and you will turn the

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hydroelectric turbine and that 
in turn generates electricity. 

246
00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,600
So that's pumped hydro. 
And That's to traditional means 

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of storing energy, but things 
have changed technologies have 

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changed. 
And now the prevalence form of 

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energy storage for many people 
are actually lead to my own 

250
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where you can actually turn it 
on at the flick of a switch and 

251
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can charge and discharge power 
and that changed a lot of 

252
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things. 
You would look at solar today, 

253
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where you only works in the 
daytime his son. 

254
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He has changed to a stage where 
you can store in Texas cities as

255
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we generated by solar into a 
battery could just literally 

256
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literally physically switch and 
then use it again evening. 

257
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Nighttime where you can 
actually. 

258
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Now he's charged up. 
Our that's been stored in the 

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battery. 
So this is how you really have 

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changed the industry. 
And of course all the new 

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advances in technology things 
like the dries for Energy, 

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00:13:03,500 --> 00:13:06,600
Efficiency, and of course, the 
climate change and all the 

263
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things that happening around the
world. 

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This is accelerated a lot of 
things. 

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So the changes within the 
industry itself is a big driver 

266
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to the need for the change. 
The utilities is a means to 

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Konami of scale because you 
would have lost generation at 

268
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one location and then your 
transmit it to smaller and 

269
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smaller. 
Kill with the existence of 

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renewable and energy storage 
your now Distributing power. 

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To many locations that again, 
changes the Paradigm of what the

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00:13:30,100 --> 00:13:33,000
utility is supposed to do. 
And it has become existential 

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threat to utilities and today 
whole industry. 

274
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So do you need for digital? 
Transition is real and the need 

275
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for doing something beyond the 
normal transmission and 

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00:13:41,700 --> 00:13:44,900
distribution of electricity is 
very very real and that's where 

277
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I came in and I came in first of
all to learn what these new 

278
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,500
technologies are and how do we 
actually make use of it? 

279
00:13:50,500 --> 00:13:52,400
And how do we actually turn it 
around from? 

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00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:55,200
Being a threat to being 
something that is not an 

281
00:13:55,208 --> 00:13:58,000
advantage for the organization 
and for industry. 

282
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Having said that we are not 
working completely unique ground

283
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here, other utilities have 
looked into it and they have 

284
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,300
tackled it which I've always 
dated think is best. 

285
00:14:06,300 --> 00:14:08,800
But in Singapore, obviously, 
there has not been done in some 

286
00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,300
willpower or wasn't done four 
plus years ago. 

287
00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:14,500
For example, electric vehicles, 
uavs were brand new, and they 

288
00:14:14,500 --> 00:14:16,800
are still brand-new today, but I
think over the years, we've 

289
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,200
embarked on a number of things 
like now today. 

290
00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,900
We have one of the largest EV 
charging networks in Before we 

291
00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:26,000
definitely have the largest TV 
fast charging, even Network in 

292
00:14:26,000 --> 00:14:28,900
Singapore, and that mindset 
change were operating. 

293
00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:31,900
Large equipment is still there. 
But at the same time, we are 

294
00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:33,500
tackling in the very different 
way. 

295
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:37,800
So I think that change is not a 
360 degree or 180 degree change 

296
00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,900
because no organization is going
to be able to do that. 

297
00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:43,900
So what we need to do is really 
to nudge it to a level where we 

298
00:14:43,900 --> 00:14:47,400
are going to adjacent fuels from
managing large Transformers. 

299
00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:49,200
Now, you are managing be 
charging station. 

300
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,000
So that is the adjacent move if 
you are a power and You running 

301
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,100
a Transformer? 
You're not going to be a 

302
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:56,800
software engineer tomorrow 
running. 

303
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,300
It's a software, that's not 
going to happen. 

304
00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:01,800
So being able to understand this
and being able to lead the 

305
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:05,200
company, step two step from that
operational approach, not the 

306
00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,400
entire company, obviously, 
because we still need 

307
00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,100
electricity. 
We still need to have the 

308
00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:11,700
transmission and distribution 
network, but really thinking 

309
00:15:11,700 --> 00:15:15,100
part of the organization and 
moving people away from that to 

310
00:15:15,100 --> 00:15:19,000
doing things like EV charging 
doing, things like Renewables, 

311
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,300
doing things like energy, 
storage, and face-to-face with 

312
00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,000
Things like online condition 
monitoring, for example. 

313
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:29,300
So a Jason Technologies adjacent
businesses and adjacent 

314
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:31,000
capabilities. 
That's how I did it. 

315
00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:34,000
Anyway, so the past four years, 
there's been ups and downs. 

316
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,900
We have been successful in some 
things. 

317
00:15:35,900 --> 00:15:39,000
We have failed miserably in 
other, things is never been a 

318
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,100
straightforward Journey, but I 
think overall the journey we 

319
00:15:42,100 --> 00:15:43,800
have been relatively successful 
for one. 

320
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,700
Very quick example, is when I 
joined SB, utility app, what 

321
00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:51,400
that point time was a called the
SD Services app, so it basically

322
00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,600
just tells you And you will 
present a bill to you and that's

323
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,100
your bill and your login, 
require you to go to a website. 

324
00:15:58,100 --> 00:16:01,900
It was built using hybrid 
software, hybrid mobile the 

325
00:16:01,900 --> 00:16:04,100
thief, as well as a web 
software. 

326
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,800
It was clunky. 
It was not really meant to do 

327
00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,400
stuff. 
It was just meant to tell you 

328
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,600
stuff. 
So it's basically the mobile 

329
00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,000
version of your website. 
We saw potential in it. 

330
00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,500
And the first thing I wanted to 
do with it was I wanted to make 

331
00:16:15,500 --> 00:16:17,500
it transactional. 
Because what do people want to 

332
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:19,700
do with that utility. 
What do I want to do with it? 

333
00:16:19,700 --> 00:16:21,400
I want to be able to pay my 
bills with it. 

334
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:23,800
So that was the first thing. 
We did we turn it from a 

335
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,300
content-based app to a 
transactional app by enabling 

336
00:16:27,300 --> 00:16:28,900
payment. 
But obviously that was not so 

337
00:16:28,900 --> 00:16:32,400
straightforward being able to do
payment to and mobile app, was 

338
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,100
truly revolutionary within the 
organization. 

339
00:16:35,100 --> 00:16:38,300
People were not used to it. 
People were not very sure 

340
00:16:38,300 --> 00:16:40,800
whether this will be acceptable 
to customers here. 

341
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,700
I could just go back a little 
bit in my career. 

342
00:16:42,700 --> 00:16:45,400
I was part of an organization 
called the Singapore Sports 

343
00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,700
Council and we develop solution 
for swimming pools and stadiums 

344
00:16:49,700 --> 00:16:52,700
and so on, when we first 
deployed the you Solutions Those

345
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:54,300
locations. 
And then after that, we went 

346
00:16:54,300 --> 00:16:56,500
back to that users, and try to 
get feedback. 

347
00:16:56,500 --> 00:16:58,200
And we discovered that they 
wouldn't use at all. 

348
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:00,500
They were afraid to touch the 
computer because they were 

349
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:02,100
afraid, they will break 
something. 

350
00:17:02,100 --> 00:17:05,300
So you can see that there is 
actually a vast difference and 

351
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:08,200
coming back to the story of SB 
utility app at a point. 

352
00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,099
I'm enabling payment on a mobile
app was scary. 

353
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,500
What if the users don't like it?
What is about regulates this? 

354
00:17:13,500 --> 00:17:15,500
Don't like it. 
What if this thing becomes a 

355
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:17,700
risk to us? 
And there's a lot of fraud on 

356
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:19,099
it. 
So there were a lot of issues 

357
00:17:19,099 --> 00:17:22,200
and bringing that was a slow and
painful process, but I think we 

358
00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,700
have I've come a long way since 
then. 

359
00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:27,500
Today we enable not only just a 
payment off your bill, but we 

360
00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:29,500
have a lot of other things in it
as well. 

361
00:17:29,500 --> 00:17:32,300
We have this program called 
Green up where we encourage 

362
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:34,400
users on a sustainability 
Journey. 

363
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,800
We have a carbon footprint, 
tracker to help people to 

364
00:17:36,808 --> 00:17:39,200
understand their carbon 
footprint, a lot better. 

365
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,000
We have different capabilities 
in it. 

366
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:45,000
We have ability for you to 
control to locate control and 

367
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:47,500
pay for your charging of your 
electric vehicles. 

368
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:50,500
So we have definitely come a 
long way from where we were. 

369
00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:54,400
So, I think the journey You 
mentioned especially giving us 

370
00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:57,700
the background about the Energy 
electrical companies. 

371
00:17:57,700 --> 00:18:00,500
It's a very unique use case in 
the industry. 

372
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,600
Not many companies probably can 
relate to that but still, I 

373
00:18:03,608 --> 00:18:06,800
think the Journey of digital 
transformation itself is 

374
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,400
probably something that every 
company is looking for. 

375
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,000
So I appreciate that. 
You have explained the external 

376
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,900
side of SP digital and how the 
energy industry is changing. 

377
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:19,300
So when you go in into SP 
digital initially, how do you 

378
00:18:19,300 --> 00:18:22,200
actually start with the company 
that is being traditional? 

379
00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:25,800
Well, maybe the people are not 
used to a lot of digital things.

380
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,500
How do you actually bridge 
between the old and the new? 

381
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,500
And where do you actually start 
your transformation Journey? 

382
00:18:31,900 --> 00:18:35,300
So the multiple ways of doing it
and to the way that I've done is

383
00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:39,100
really to attack it from a point
where things don't exist, think 

384
00:18:39,100 --> 00:18:41,100
that's the easiest way. 
Because if things are in 

385
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:44,900
existence and we tackle it, you 
change things for people, people

386
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,500
would be very uncomfortable. 
You are used to doing things one

387
00:18:47,500 --> 00:18:50,100
way and suddenly you tell people
that work is no good. 

388
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:52,100
It's outdated as a better way of
doing things. 

389
00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,000
Right natural to be offended or 
few very resistant to change, 

390
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,400
and that is very human. 
And that is always a hill to 

391
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,500
climb. 
So especially when somebody 

392
00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,600
completely new to the industry, 
like myself, turns out the door 

393
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:05,400
and say, hey, you know what, 
your we're doing. 

394
00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:08,000
It is outdated or fashion. 
I'll show you how to do things 

395
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,600
better. 
Nobody will look decent to me. 

396
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:12,500
But even tackle on something 
that is not being done today and

397
00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:15,400
think people are not familiar 
with or maybe even people think 

398
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,700
that they are not that 
important. 

399
00:19:16,700 --> 00:19:19,000
Then you have a much higher 
chance of success. 

400
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,700
People will leave you alone to 
do the things and you will be 

401
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:23,400
able to prove of the 
capabilities. 

402
00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:27,600
And so that's the reason why I 
started with DSP utility and 

403
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:30,700
because the app was a vanity 
showcase when we first started 

404
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:32,800
and nobody really cared too much
about because it's all content 

405
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:34,800
only. 
But I realized the potential in 

406
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,700
it because the reach to 
Consumers is something that's 

407
00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,900
rather unique within St. 
And the ability to touch every 

408
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:44,300
single household in Singapore is
something rather unique with in 

409
00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:47,400
Singapore or within SP. 
If any something rather unique 

410
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,100
both utilities around the world 
and most utilities around the 

411
00:19:50,100 --> 00:19:52,200
world are actually relatively 
weak. 

412
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,500
He's reaching out to their 
consumers because most utilities

413
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,000
care only about the bigger 
things consumers. 

414
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,400
You're just consuming. 
You are at the other end of the 

415
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,400
line. 
You just take power from me and 

416
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,900
every month just pay me. 
So that's generally how the 

417
00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:06,800
utility will take about 
consumers. 

418
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:09,900
But I see that the verbal 
different way coming in. 

419
00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:13,400
Because consumers and the users 
are really what determines the 

420
00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,700
future and consumers have passed
who are just happy to have. 

421
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:19,300
Like a city will be very 
different from consumers of our 

422
00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:21,700
current age or the future 
because they would demand a lot 

423
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:24,100
more from the you to the T. 
If you look at the past couple 

424
00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:27,400
years, with climate change and 
the younger generation speaking 

425
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,300
out like a greater Turnbull, 
coming out to speak at United 

426
00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:33,400
Nations. 
People are Keen to know how this

427
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,400
energy is being generated, how 
to power the electricity that 

428
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:37,800
using house. 
Degenerated. 

429
00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,900
They want to know is the energy.
I'm using green, how we actually

430
00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:42,900
doing the right thing. 
Obviously, you're burning fossil

431
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:45,600
fuels and I would say, yeah, I 
was probably are still burning 

432
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,100
fossil fuels to a certain 
degree, but things are changing 

433
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:50,400
and how can you help? 
How can I engage with you as a 

434
00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,500
consumer to help make it better?
A sustainable world in the 

435
00:20:53,500 --> 00:20:55,800
future. 
And that's why the vision for SP

436
00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:57,800
digital. 
Overall is all about 

437
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,100
sustainability, is all about 
using technology, to power 

438
00:21:01,100 --> 00:21:04,000
sustainability for the future. 
And obviously, in our domain, 

439
00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,900
good things to focus on our 
Renewables and on Energy 

440
00:21:06,900 --> 00:21:09,500
Efficiency, but consumers need 
to change too. 

441
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,900
And I thought that this is one 
great way of making this change 

442
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:16,600
by engaging consumers directly. 
So, anyway, long story short, is

443
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:19,100
that going into this? 
Then realizing that we've, you 

444
00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:21,700
start off in a place where 
within the company, the 

445
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:23,800
existing? 
People are not too concerned 

446
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,800
about it. 
That's one way of tackling the 

447
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:29,100
chain or where it is not too 
confrontational and it doesn't 

448
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:31,600
invite too much resistance. 
The second one is obviously 

449
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:34,500
going to things that are not 
people, whereas the organization

450
00:21:34,500 --> 00:21:35,600
don't have it in the first 
place. 

451
00:21:35,600 --> 00:21:39,300
Like SP is a t and D utility 
transmission and distribution 

452
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:41,100
utility. 
It is not the generation 

453
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:43,200
utility. 
We were not familiar with things

454
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,100
like solar and Renewables. 
We were not familiar with things

455
00:21:46,100 --> 00:21:48,600
like energy storage. 
So these are the things that arm

456
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:52,200
you for our organization and for
us to get involved into it and 

457
00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:55,200
Look into those things and build
Technologies around those 

458
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:56,800
things. 
Those become something that a 

459
00:21:56,808 --> 00:21:59,800
lot easier to tackle. 
Once we establish our 

460
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:03,300
capabilities and our credentials
and people are more comfortable 

461
00:22:03,300 --> 00:22:06,200
in what we can achieve. 
Then Things become a lot easier.

462
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,300
That's how I actually built and 
he's an organization to do 

463
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,200
digital transformation. 
So it's very interesting story 

464
00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,100
that you started with this SP 
digital app. 

465
00:22:15,100 --> 00:22:18,400
I personally use the app very 
frequently these days especially

466
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,100
since the switching of the 
electric vendor where we can 

467
00:22:21,100 --> 00:22:25,000
have a choice and now, I'm using
the real-time statistics of how 

468
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,400
the electricity is being used 
thing is really, really 

469
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,000
transformational, at least for 
me coming from my personal 

470
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,100
experience. 
So obviously the other part of 

471
00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:34,600
digital transformation, like 
what you mentioned early in the 

472
00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,500
beginning, people may be 
resistant to it, but I think you

473
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:40,600
still got a change in terms of 
culture, in terms of 

474
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,700
capabilities, to the people 
inside. 

475
00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:45,100
And a lot of times these days 
people associate digital 

476
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:48,500
transformation with a gel, Cloud
continuous, delivery, and things

477
00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:50,400
like that. 
So how do you actually start in 

478
00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:52,200
complicating? 
This kind of a culture? 

479
00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:55,900
Kind of practices and workflow 
changes inside the company. 

480
00:22:56,100 --> 00:22:59,100
So it's interesting that you 
talk about this as an operator. 

481
00:22:59,100 --> 00:23:02,600
SP did not really have a 
development team did not do 

482
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,300
software development as 
operator. 

483
00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:07,000
It does not build things 
operators, operate things. 

484
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:10,100
So that's the premise of 
operator, Transformers, and 

485
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:13,100
switchgear and substation. 
None of it is something that we 

486
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:15,500
built. 
We always buy equipment from 

487
00:23:15,500 --> 00:23:18,300
others who will manage it. 
We will run it, effectively and 

488
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:21,400
efficiently, but you will never 
build your own Transformers as 

489
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:22,700
you do not build. 
Software. 

490
00:23:22,700 --> 00:23:25,900
Then, there is no need for you 
to have all those practices. 

491
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,700
You will always depend on a 
vendor, you always depend on a 

492
00:23:28,708 --> 00:23:32,000
third-party to be able to go to 
software for you, and that you 

493
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,000
would manage the software from a
perspective managing vendors. 

494
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,400
So that's always been a premise 
for SES a utility. 

495
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,400
How do I introduce this? 
Then is kind of straightforward 

496
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,400
because things do not exist in 
the first place introducing. 

497
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,200
It wasn't so much of when we 
shoot. 

498
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,400
I think the difficult part of it
was, how do we and then, as we 

499
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:54,100
move towards building software 
for Utility itself and not just 

500
00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:57,000
for the new things. 
How do we involve those guys in 

501
00:23:57,100 --> 00:23:59,400
to the process? 
Because obviously, these are 

502
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,200
going to be the users. 
These are going to be people who

503
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,800
run and operate and having these
people who are very used to 

504
00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:08,800
dealing with vendors and dealing
with operations. 

505
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,200
How do they be part of the 
process and we build a software.

506
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:15,600
I think that was the most 
difficult part, but I think at 

507
00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,200
the same time there's always 
this thinking that hey, you 

508
00:24:18,208 --> 00:24:19,900
know, what? 
We are people doing the 

509
00:24:19,900 --> 00:24:22,000
transformation. 
We are somewhere people. 

510
00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:24,900
We do our age our processes and 
this is the right way. 

511
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:27,300
This is the correct way of doing
things and everybody should just

512
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:29,700
follow us. 
I think that's wrong because the

513
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:33,300
way that the unity has run his 
business for decades or some 

514
00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:36,200
hundreds of years and to tell 
them that here we are doing. 

515
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:38,800
This thing is wrong. 
I think it's not just insulting 

516
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,000
and disrespectful but you're 
also not respecting yourself 

517
00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:44,600
because obviously my thinking 
that you're always right, that 

518
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,400
not only pushes away people, but
I think it makes you lose out in

519
00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:51,600
the learning opportunities going
to a new domain, understanding 

520
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:52,900
how it goes. 
What are? 

521
00:24:52,900 --> 00:24:55,300
You would also learn something 
out of it and maybe that will 

522
00:24:55,300 --> 00:24:59,200
bring new changes and you way of
doing things within your domain 

523
00:24:59,300 --> 00:25:02,300
is really about the mindset of 
how you go in and engage with 

524
00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:05,200
people, that would make things 
easier or more difficult when 

525
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,600
you do that. 
So, you mentioned in the last 

526
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,000
one or two years. 
You've become the CEO of SBI 

527
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,100
digital. 
Obviously, this is something new

528
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:14,600
for you personally, as well 
coming from engineering, 

529
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:18,500
backgrounding engineering 
manager, director CTO and things

530
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:20,800
like that. 
So, can you maybe share a story?

531
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:24,000
Why do you take this? 
Opposition and becoming more 

532
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:26,700
responsible about the company's 
pnl. 

533
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,600
Maybe crafting the vision and 
direction for the company. 

534
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:31,700
And what makes you want to take 
this role. 

535
00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:33,400
It's interesting. 
This is a question. 

536
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,200
A lot of people ask me and to be
honest. 

537
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:36,900
I would say I didn't really 
think too much about it. 

538
00:25:36,900 --> 00:25:38,900
It's not something that I 
deliberated. 

539
00:25:38,900 --> 00:25:41,600
Obviously, I spent time thinking
about it, but at the same time 

540
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:45,200
it is something new for me. 
If I am somebody who always stay

541
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,000
on track with what I'm 
comfortable with and I would not

542
00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,500
have gone very far. 
I think most of our developers 

543
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:53,600
in a way adventurous. 
People who are Builders, who are

544
00:25:53,608 --> 00:25:56,900
creative, because they wanted to
try something different. 

545
00:25:56,900 --> 00:25:58,400
They want to build something 
different. 

546
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,100
It's about building things, 
about doing things, where things

547
00:26:01,100 --> 00:26:04,100
you like this before. 
I jumped into this in that same 

548
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,600
Spirit where I'm trying to do 
something, they have not done 

549
00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:10,700
before I spend most of my time 
managing engineering teams and 

550
00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:13,200
managing a PL is completely 
different from anything 

551
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:16,200
Ingenuity, but it is a new 
adventure is something that's a 

552
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,600
different just like when you 
jump into a new programming 

553
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,700
language, you jump to a new 
technology. 

554
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:22,000
I've done many times. 
Why not? 

555
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,000
Um, into completely new rope. 
So that is our one step further 

556
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,800
down, but I don't think it is 
something that is outside of 

557
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:31,900
what I would normally do. 
And that's the spirit of for how

558
00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,800
I actually took on this role. 
So it's very interesting story. 

559
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,000
Definitely one thing that you 
mentioned about the SP Journey, 

560
00:26:38,000 --> 00:26:39,000
right? 
You mentioned about the 

561
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,700
failures. 
Will you be comfortable sharing?

562
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:45,100
Some of these values for the 
listeners as key, learnings, 

563
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:47,500
what you should be aware of. 
If you're doing digital 

564
00:26:47,500 --> 00:26:51,500
transformation, what potential 
things that might be a top cause

565
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,400
of failure. 
What things that you should not 

566
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:54,800
do. 
When doing this digital 

567
00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,100
transformation? 
I can share some of these 

568
00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:59,100
things. 
So obviously there is no 

569
00:26:59,100 --> 00:27:01,800
permanent failure and there is 
no guarantee of success, either 

570
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:05,100
what you define success, what 
you define as failure is really 

571
00:27:05,100 --> 00:27:07,500
just a definition. 
So I would not say things are 

572
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:10,100
absolute successes or failures, 
but we are still on that 

573
00:27:10,100 --> 00:27:12,100
Journey. 
One of the examples I can talk 

574
00:27:12,100 --> 00:27:15,300
about is how when we first tried
to introduce certain 

575
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:19,300
capabilities to our great, and 
we thought we could do it and we

576
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:21,100
actually technically could do 
it. 

577
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:24,000
But the acceptance, Level and 
the Comfort level of the people 

578
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:25,600
who are operating were not 
there. 

579
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,900
They were not comfortable in 
using our Technologies because 

580
00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:31,600
it was too new, and they had no 
assurance that you will work. 

581
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,100
And that was something that I 
thought we could overcome. 

582
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:37,000
But reality is, we could not 
overcome at the end of the day, 

583
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:40,500
while we push very hard and 
users for not comfortable using 

584
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:43,000
our product, even though from a 
technical point of view it 

585
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,500
succeeded but when the users do 
not use it and it's not a 

586
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:48,100
success, so that is one failure,
but we are still trying. 

587
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:51,400
We're not giving up as we see 
this to be something that maybe 

588
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,000
they are just not. 
Ready for it. 

589
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,900
Or maybe there's something that 
we're doing that does not match 

590
00:27:55,900 --> 00:27:58,600
the things that were required 
and therefore, we are trying. 

591
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:00,100
Again. 
That's what I mean early on. 

592
00:28:00,100 --> 00:28:02,200
When I say, there are no 
permanent failures because it's 

593
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,300
just one data point for you to 
know that there is something 

594
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,200
that you could do better, could 
improve. 

595
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,600
You could just try a different 
way of doing things. 

596
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:12,800
So, while they were ups and 
downs in the entire journey, I 

597
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,600
think so far. 
We have not met and think. 

598
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,800
So catastrophic that we recover 
but we definitely have a lot of 

599
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,600
projects that we say, this is 
not going to work and we're 

600
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,000
going to just leave it there for
now. 

601
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,500
And then we will try different 
things. 

602
00:28:23,500 --> 00:28:24,800
Maybe we'll come back to it 
later. 

603
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,400
Another one that is kind of 
funny and I go see this quite 

604
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,200
freely, because I think there 
was a technical thing that we 

605
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,100
made a mistake on when we first 
started dealing with EV charging

606
00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:35,300
stations. 
So obviously, we hardly worried 

607
00:28:35,300 --> 00:28:37,600
about it. 
So we tackled it in a very 

608
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,200
different way. 
And I tried to do certain things

609
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:41,800
in a way that I thought would be
easy. 

610
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:44,600
And at the end of the day, we 
discovered that there was 

611
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,100
another case electric vehicle. 
Charging station is actually a 

612
00:28:47,100 --> 00:28:49,500
sophisticated piece of machinery
and my thoughts. 

613
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,800
When we first encountered it I 
thought it was a dump is a 

614
00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:53,200
shooting. 
So what did he saw? 

615
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:56,100
Some intelligence to it? 
So we actually over time, 

616
00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:59,700
develop this iot Gateway. 
And I wanted to stick that 

617
00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:02,700
Gateway into the EV charging 
station thinking that we could 

618
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:05,700
bring more intelligence to it. 
We could actually make sure just

619
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:09,200
to how is being operated and so 
on without realizing actually 

620
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,800
the EV charging station is self 
has something similar in it 

621
00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:16,100
already and it has certain 
capabilities that it is already 

622
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,600
operating within an ecosystem. 
So in a sense, it was arrogance.

623
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,000
I would say that we could make 
changes to something. 

624
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,500
That's existence and over time 
we discover that hey, you know 

625
00:29:24,500 --> 00:29:26,500
what? 
This thing's already exists the 

626
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:29,200
industry with the exists and 
obviously realizing that this 

627
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,100
technology change our course 
entirely and we pulled out, I 

628
00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:34,800
end up, not putting the iot 
gateway to the EV charging 

629
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,700
station. 
And we are using the EV charging

630
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:38,900
station as how it was originally
built. 

631
00:29:38,900 --> 00:29:41,300
And we are getting a lot more 
successes in it. 

632
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:44,900
So, just give two examples one, 
which is a management failure. 

633
00:29:44,900 --> 00:29:47,100
We couldn't manage our users 
effectively. 

634
00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:49,200
And one is more of a technical 
failure. 

635
00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:51,900
Both cases. 
We learned and we recover from 

636
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:53,300
it. 
I said earlier on there are no 

637
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:56,100
permanent failures is just 
learning data points, where you 

638
00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:58,900
can continue forging ahead. 
Thank you for sharing the 

639
00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:01,800
failure, stories, and your 
insightful thoughts. 

640
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,200
So, let's move on to another 
personal stuff. 

641
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:07,800
So, I've seen your profile, you 
have won prestigious Awards. 

642
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,100
If I can, name some of them like
smart Nation Bellow, Microsoft, 

643
00:30:11,100 --> 00:30:14,100
Regional director, and executive
of the year related to your 

644
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:15,800
current role. 
Can you share with us? 

645
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,600
What are these roles? 
And how do you actually win? 

646
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,800
The, some of these things are 
not really with in a sense 

647
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,300
Martin? 
Asian fellow was something girls

648
00:30:24,300 --> 00:30:28,200
tag team wanted me to help out 
in some of the junior people in 

649
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,400
Gulf Tech and they requested 
that I participate in this 

650
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,600
program. 
And I did, we have a capacity 

651
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:35,000
that I could to help augment 
that. 

652
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,900
Realistically, it's just me 
trying to contribute to your 

653
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:40,200
smart Nation efforts and I still
do that. 

654
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,400
Today. 
I still and part of a number of 

655
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:46,000
committees within the gulf 
taxing, but Polly one of the 

656
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,900
advisory committee members 
advising on their coursework. 

657
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,100
I chair the ICT technical 
committee, where we 

658
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,100
Collaborating with the likes of 
w3c and working on. 

659
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,800
How do we improve the ICT 
capabilities of engineer's? 

660
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,300
General in Singapore? 
Because that's the charter for 

661
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:05,400
the IES Institute of Engineers 
inside for the Microsoft 

662
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,200
Regional director. 
Again is a little, like, a 

663
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,600
fellowship. 
It was an interesting Insight 

664
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,600
because honestly, speaking, we 
do use Microsoft Technologies, 

665
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:15,500
quite a lot, and I think they 
have really good Technologies in

666
00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:17,400
particularly their cognitive 
abilities. 

667
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:20,500
So I participated in this 
program because I was invited to

668
00:31:20,500 --> 00:31:23,500
honestly and then there is a A 
group of a similar peers, 

669
00:31:23,500 --> 00:31:25,900
globally. 
I am one of two or three 

670
00:31:25,900 --> 00:31:28,600
regional directors in Singapore.
The regional director is 

671
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,000
basically like a smart Nation 
fellow just just the term that 

672
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,300
they use. 
Essentially, this is a group of 

673
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:37,100
people who Microsoft can tap on 
to bounce, ideas off and just 

674
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:40,000
give feedback and executive of 
the year, was probably one of 

675
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,000
the most interesting because 
it's not something that I 

676
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,200
thought I would actually win and
press kind of a strange thing 

677
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,600
for me as well. 
So, obviously, we've done quite 

678
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,200
a number of interesting things 
witness. 

679
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,600
We digital the first year and I 
think, Probably got the notice 

680
00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:57,200
of that organization to give out
this award and we thought that 

681
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,000
for a utility Executives that 
came from the software world. 

682
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,800
That is something interesting 
enough. 

683
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,900
And after deliberation, the 
panel judges decided that maybe 

684
00:32:05,900 --> 00:32:07,800
that's something that it can 
want to be. 

685
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,200
So very interesting experience 
in building, other Executives 

686
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,100
running different companies, 
execute every year for utility. 

687
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:17,400
That's one of the more 
interesting ones that I've 

688
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,500
gotten over to you. 
So, you mentioned about 

689
00:32:19,500 --> 00:32:21,200
contributing to the community, 
right? 

690
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,500
I see you. 
Very active in the community as 

691
00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:25,000
well. 
You have even run a Tech 

692
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:28,300
conference, which is the go work
on your also active in doing 

693
00:32:28,300 --> 00:32:30,900
public, good for like the gulf 
tag and the government in 

694
00:32:30,900 --> 00:32:33,500
general. 
So what actually motivates you 

695
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:37,100
to do all these things. 
So I've always been in the 

696
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:40,700
community, not a lot of people 
know this but I used to run a 

697
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:42,000
Singapore. 
Java users. 

698
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,900
Kruky ninety seven, ninety nine.
So whole does 20 years ago, but 

699
00:32:45,900 --> 00:32:50,200
Java has gone on to a level 
where it's very common language 

700
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,900
now, so the need to pop Rise, it
do not exist anymore. 

701
00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:56,700
But the original intention at 
that point in time was really 

702
00:32:56,700 --> 00:33:00,000
for people who are interested in
that technology and interested 

703
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,900
in adopting those Technologies 
and I drove that for a while 

704
00:33:02,900 --> 00:33:06,300
with a bunch of friends and 
similarly was also part of the 

705
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:09,400
Singapore Ruby Brigade driving. 
These simple Ruby developer 

706
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,800
community and also part of the 
organizing team for the first 

707
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,000
Red Dot Ruby. 
Conf many, many years ago. 

708
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:17,800
And of course the graphic on. 
I've been running it as the 

709
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,900
chair since 2017. 
Be rented for three years in a 

710
00:33:20,908 --> 00:33:22,700
row last year was the most 
Successful. 

711
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,700
When I first started it I did a 
survey and asked would you be 

712
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:28,700
interested in attending thing 
for a goal? 

713
00:33:28,700 --> 00:33:31,500
Programming language conference 
in Singapore got about 100 

714
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:33,300
responses back from various 
people. 

715
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,600
I will call disappointed because
even though I've got 100 

716
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,800
responses, maybe about 40 of 
them City will pay but then with

717
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,000
urging of couple of friends in 
the community say, hey, let's 

718
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,000
just give it a try first give it
a run and see where we end. 

719
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:47,600
So it's quite surprising. 
The first year we ended up about

720
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:51,000
200 people who came and actually
paid for tickets. 

721
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:54,000
And so it was a Any successful 
conference the first year. 

722
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,900
And the second year. 
We went out to about 350 

723
00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:59,800
participants and last year. 
We are 600 over people. 

724
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,600
Unfortunately, of course, all of
these things stop on its tracks 

725
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,000
this year, but nonetheless, I 
think there's been an amazing 

726
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,300
experience for me. 
Anyway, running tree at 

727
00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:10,300
conferences in a row, but I've 
always been interested in this 

728
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:12,800
because I've always believed 
that I'm part of the community. 

729
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,699
I'm not somebody looking from 
outside. 

730
00:34:14,699 --> 00:34:17,699
I have extreme interest in 
promoting the industry, 

731
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:20,300
promoting the community and 
basically getting more people 

732
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:23,199
involved because for me. 
So, The development is a team 

733
00:34:23,199 --> 00:34:25,400
sport. 
So my developers in professional

734
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:28,400
settings today, they work in 
teams and you can't really just 

735
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,400
do things alone. 
So you do need to have people 

736
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,600
around you. 
You need a community and you 

737
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,199
need people. 
Whom you can bounce ideas off, 

738
00:34:35,199 --> 00:34:37,100
you can discuss things. 
And that's what we have since 

739
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:40,500
we're pair programming and so on
because you do need people to 

740
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:44,699
discuss ideas to share ideas, 
and to correct you, if you're 

741
00:34:44,699 --> 00:34:47,500
going the wrong way, so 
community, and bring in a team, 

742
00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:49,699
is important. 
And that's the reason why I 

743
00:34:49,699 --> 00:34:52,600
always push for more 
communities, more be Ups and 

744
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,500
more conferences, run by 
community, and so on and so 

745
00:34:55,500 --> 00:34:57,300
forth. 
Because I believe that sa 

746
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:01,000
industry Community is one of the
key parts of what we need and 

747
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,400
what we are. 
So that's really it and I'm 

748
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,100
still keenly interested in 
pushing this even in other 

749
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:08,200
organizations. 
Like I mentioned early on I am 

750
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:10,400
the chair. 
Now for the ICT, technical 

751
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,600
committee for IES. 
We are talking about other 

752
00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,600
Engineers electrical engineers, 
civil engineers also fall. 

753
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,500
So that's another trust that I'm
having today. 

754
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:20,400
Try to push together, all of 
these things. 

755
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,200
So as to build a bigger 
community, Aditi for our tech 

756
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,600
industry, so you ask me why am I
doing this? 

757
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,800
Why am I spending effort? 
I believe I'm part of this. 

758
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,500
I'm trying to actually bring 
people together so we can make 

759
00:35:31,500 --> 00:35:35,000
this a much more vibrant and 
prosperous industry altogether. 

760
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:37,600
So that's really the reason 
chopping as part of the 

761
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,700
community myself. 
I would like to thank you for 

762
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:42,400
your contribution including 
bringing all these conferences 

763
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,000
for people to attend and learn 
something from it. 

764
00:35:45,100 --> 00:35:47,300
It's been a very great 
contributions. 

765
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,100
So you also write few books. 
If I got it. 

766
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:52,000
Correct, least like four books, 
things around. 

767
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:54,900
Ruby rails and also go by 
programming. 

768
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,700
What makes you want to write 
those books if you can also 

769
00:35:57,700 --> 00:36:00,600
share, how do you actually write
those books while running large 

770
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,500
organizations or being a 
director, or the CTO? 

771
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:06,100
And CEO of the company? 
Is, how do you actually do that?

772
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:09,000
Yes, I have four books. 
Those are published books. 

773
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,800
I was trying to create a blog as
well for the past couple years 

774
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,600
and I realized that probably I 
don't have that kind of 

775
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,000
bandwidth. 
So ended up. 

776
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,200
Now I write mostly for other 
Publications and the medium 

777
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:21,900
probably the publication of 
contributed most. 

778
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,500
Those two so far is to work 
together signs and probably 

779
00:36:24,500 --> 00:36:27,400
that's the case for the 
immediate future anyway, so as 

780
00:36:27,400 --> 00:36:30,100
to why I write, that's really a 
labor of love. 

781
00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,800
I've always liked writing and 
that stems from some interesting

782
00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,800
fact that a lot of people know 
about me, which I was actually 

783
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,800
an English literature student. 
So that's my background growing 

784
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,700
up. 
Really my passion was inviting 

785
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:46,400
and I wanted to be a writer 
journalist, but I think turn of 

786
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,500
Fate. 
I ended up in a course where I 

787
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:51,000
did completely engineering. 
And of course if you ask me, why

788
00:36:51,300 --> 00:36:52,900
what happened to you Let's get 
your list. 

789
00:36:52,900 --> 00:36:56,000
I would say one word or two 
words, Asian parents. 

790
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:58,000
So I hope that explains a lot of
things. 

791
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,500
But anyway, that's how I ended 
up doing computer engineering. 

792
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:02,700
I would say it's not too far off
the mark, because writing 

793
00:37:02,700 --> 00:37:04,700
software. 
It's not very different from, 

794
00:37:04,700 --> 00:37:06,200
right? 
Thinkers is both acts of 

795
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:09,100
creation and you're creating 
something that did not exist 

796
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:12,500
before I think writing in 
general where you create tags 

797
00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:16,100
and prose and so on really 
triggers the mind and creates 

798
00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:19,300
impact to people reading it. 
And really, that's the reason 

799
00:37:19,300 --> 00:37:22,300
why I want to write. 
Because I do want to have Have a

800
00:37:22,300 --> 00:37:24,900
transmission of knowledge 
transmission or thought, 

801
00:37:24,900 --> 00:37:29,000
transmission of ideas, from one 
person to many people and so 

802
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,900
obviously writing is one of the 
better ways to we as so how I do

803
00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:33,000
it. 
I think it's with great 

804
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,400
difficulty writing books in 
particular is not easy is 

805
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:38,700
achieving a back-breaking. 
So imagine as a software 

806
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:41,500
developer you participate in 
project and you have a project 

807
00:37:41,500 --> 00:37:44,700
manager and you have people who 
are always on your back to 

808
00:37:44,700 --> 00:37:47,500
deliver certain things. 
It's much the same as books, you

809
00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:50,100
have your editor and you have 
multiple levels of editors 

810
00:37:50,100 --> 00:37:53,800
pushing you to deliver on time. 
When I was writing a book and 

811
00:37:53,808 --> 00:37:55,700
you need to deliver chapter a, 
to three weeks. 

812
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:57,800
And attach up there could be 20 
30 pages. 

813
00:37:57,900 --> 00:38:00,300
And if you are purely writing, 
that's maybe not too bad. 

814
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,600
Obviously, you need to do a lot 
of proofreading when we are 

815
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,900
writing code as well. 
And you need to write small mini

816
00:38:04,900 --> 00:38:08,100
project, which is often what I 
do that doubles or triples to 

817
00:38:08,100 --> 00:38:10,000
work. 
So it is back-breaking work, but

818
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:12,900
I always think that is what it 
because the impact it has on the

819
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:14,700
readers. 
It's very, very satisfying. 

820
00:38:14,700 --> 00:38:18,100
The more recent things that I 
read on Amazon review of my 

821
00:38:18,100 --> 00:38:20,100
book. 
One reader was saying if I could

822
00:38:20,100 --> 00:38:23,600
paraphrase it, the reader enjoy 
my Look so much that is starting

823
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,800
to impact his marriage and it's 
like, what, what, what are you 

824
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,300
talking about? 
You know, it's so it's one of 

825
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:34,000
the funnier comments that I've 
read en the reviews of my books.

826
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:37,000
There was another time where I 
was actually in Russia. 

827
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:40,800
I was in Moscow and I was giving
a talk and then after the talk, 

828
00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:44,100
one of the audience came up to 
me, so there was this lady who 

829
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:47,300
came out with me and say, my 
husband loves your books, a lot.

830
00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:49,900
He was standing next to her, but
he doesn't really speak English 

831
00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:52,900
that well, so he wants me to 
tell you that he You're a lot 

832
00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:55,300
and he wants you to sign on his 
Kindle. 

833
00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:59,400
Wow, so he gave me a marker pen 
and his Kindle and he asked me 

834
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,400
to sign on his Kindle heels 
permanent ink, so it was very 

835
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,400
gratifying things that look it 
affected. 

836
00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,800
These people so much is less of 
ego and pride thing, but it's 

837
00:39:07,800 --> 00:39:11,300
more of the impact that I had on
people that it actually brought 

838
00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,500
them understanding in brought 
them Clarity of things. 

839
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,600
Transmission of thought, 
reflection of ideas across 

840
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,300
through this particular medium. 
That's very gratifying to me. 

841
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:23,400
So obviously today now, Lot of 
people do things like YouTube 

842
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:25,500
and stuff like that. 
I still think they'd written 

843
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:27,500
word is one of the most powerful
medium. 

844
00:39:27,500 --> 00:39:29,700
And that's the reason why I 
still continue writing today 

845
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:33,300
because I do want to continue 
transmitting, my thoughts and my

846
00:39:33,300 --> 00:39:37,300
ideas and be able to influence 
people in that way because I 

847
00:39:37,300 --> 00:39:40,200
believe that all time, a lot of 
things would fade away. 

848
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:43,500
But one of these things that 
would last much, much longer is 

849
00:39:43,500 --> 00:39:46,600
probably the written word. 
So those are pretty interesting,

850
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:48,100
anecdotes and stories that you 
have. 

851
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:50,300
There is really, really 
interesting, for me, at least to

852
00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:53,500
hear because like signing a No, 
it's like a permanent marker. 

853
00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:55,100
That's like the first I've 
heard. 

854
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:57,200
Yeah, it was. 
You can imagine the shock that I

855
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,800
have as well. 
He don't have a physical copy of

856
00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:03,300
it, but he bought the book and 
what's on the Kindle and say 

857
00:40:03,300 --> 00:40:06,100
that was the only chance because
he will not be able to see me 

858
00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:08,200
lives in Moscow. 
So I've enjoyed our 

859
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,400
conversation. 
But I think before we wrap up 

860
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,400
here, normally I would ask every
guest that feature in the 

861
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:16,500
tekhelet journal to share some 
of the technical leadership 

862
00:40:16,500 --> 00:40:18,500
wisdom. 
If you can share with us, what 

863
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:21,500
are some of the three technical 
wisdom that you would like to 

864
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:24,000
share it. 
Us here to learn and think about

865
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:27,300
probably not go with the number 
because I'm not like some Guru 

866
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:30,300
to be honest. 
I'm just this guy who had a very

867
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:33,700
different kind of Julie in his 
technical career, trying out 

868
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:37,000
different things, but I would 
probably give this advice or 

869
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:40,900
rather get something of this 
talk to the audience is really 

870
00:40:40,900 --> 00:40:43,000
to try and do not be afraid to 
try. 

871
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:44,900
And I don't think this is 
something that most of the 

872
00:40:44,900 --> 00:40:47,100
workers who would happen. 
You should wave, but most of our

873
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:51,000
developers should try be a 
little bit more Brave and not 

874
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:53,900
just on the court. 
In the careers and in real life 

875
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:55,700
as well. 
Obviously, there are different 

876
00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:58,500
degrees to this but really, they
are things are going to happen 

877
00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:02,700
and jumping into it and doing 
things and having that courage 

878
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:05,100
to just go and try and do 
different things. 

879
00:41:05,100 --> 00:41:07,100
I think that's important. 
Obviously, you're not going to 

880
00:41:07,100 --> 00:41:09,100
succeed, every time they are no 
permanent failures. 

881
00:41:09,100 --> 00:41:12,100
You could always take those 
things that did not work so well

882
00:41:12,100 --> 00:41:15,900
and work it into something that 
could benefit you in the future.

883
00:41:15,900 --> 00:41:19,200
I don't really like the word. 
When people say, Okay, celebrate

884
00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,000
your failures. 
I don't think people should 

885
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,400
celebrate failure. 
Yes, I think people should learn

886
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,300
from them and using that 
learning to improve their next 

887
00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:29,000
round, because as long as you 
are alive, you can always try 

888
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:32,300
again and again, and again until
you succeed, but obviously, if 

889
00:41:32,300 --> 00:41:35,900
you don't try and you afraid to 
try, then you will never be able

890
00:41:35,900 --> 00:41:38,000
to experience all those 
successes either. 

891
00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:40,700
So, I think for me, that would 
be the advice. 

892
00:41:40,700 --> 00:41:43,600
I would have just try to be 
brave jump into those things. 

893
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,500
Like learning a new programming 
language. 

894
00:41:45,500 --> 00:41:47,900
Learning a new technology. 
Just do it trying out a new 

895
00:41:47,900 --> 00:41:49,300
career. 
Just try it out. 

896
00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:50,600
Who knows what's going to 
happen? 

897
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:51,800
Who knows what you're going to 
gain? 

898
00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:54,100
The bigger the risk then we 
could again. 

899
00:41:54,300 --> 00:41:57,500
So anyway, I think that would be
the point that I wanted to make 

900
00:41:57,500 --> 00:41:59,500
here. 
So yeah, I personally can relate

901
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,300
to your story saying that as a 
software engineer. 

902
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:04,400
We are not afraid to try out new
technologies. 

903
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:06,000
New programming language. 
But yeah. 

904
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,100
Trying and lives is something 
that some of us or at least me, 

905
00:42:09,100 --> 00:42:11,900
probably could see it as a 
bigger of a hurdle than all 

906
00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:14,000
these new technologies that are 
coming every day. 

907
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,400
So thank you so much. 
So Sean for spending your time. 

908
00:42:16,500 --> 00:42:19,000
I enjoyed our conversation and 
looking forward to see you. 

909
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,300
Again. 
Once we have all this lockdown 

910
00:42:21,300 --> 00:42:24,300
is of Yeah, thanks Henry. 
Thanks for asking me once again,

911
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:26,000
and also listening to all my 
ramblings. 

912
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,700
I know sometimes I tend to talk 
a lot result of 0 H, by the way,

913
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:33,200
so I hope this has been 
interesting and thank you for 

914
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,100
the opportunity to speak to this
on you. 

915
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,200
Thank you for listening to this 
episode. 

916
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,300
If you highly enjoy it, please 
share it with your friends and 

917
00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:44,100
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

918
00:42:44,100 --> 00:42:46,400
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

919
00:42:46,400 --> 00:42:49,500
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

920
00:42:49,500 --> 00:42:51,800
review and feedback. 
It really helps me. 

921
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,500
Lat, stay tuned for the next 
tekhelet Journal episode, and 

922
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:57,100
until then. 
Goodbye.