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When you recruit an engineer on 
your team, you actually want to 

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make sure from their first day 
on you, give them the smoothest 

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entry into your company and help
them and assist them in as many 

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ways as you can to become 
productive as fast as possible. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya be Robin.

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And you're listening to the 
tekhelet Juno, the show will be 

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bringing you the greatest 
technical leaders practitioners 

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and thought leaders in the 
industry to discuss about their 

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Journey ideas and practices that
we all can learn and apply to 

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build a highly performing 
technical team and to make an 

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impact in your personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hey everyone, welcome to the 
tekhelet Juno podcast. 

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I'm your host, Henry Surya. 
We are one. 

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It's really great to be back 
here again with another new 

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episode and thank you for 
spending your time with me 

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00:01:01,500 --> 00:01:03,500
today, listening to this 
episode. 

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If you are new to the show, a 
warm welcome to all of you and 

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Make sure to follow the show on 

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contain short clips from each 
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Help me towards achieving the 
goals that I'm currently running

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for the show. 
For today's episode. 

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I had an interesting 
conversation with Tanaka moot, 

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Aqua telecommute. 
Aqua is the VP of Earring at 

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names and faces and the founder 
of the tag leadership community 

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in South Africa. 
We started off our conversation 

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by discussing about the tech 
landscape startup scenes and 

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Tech communities in Africa, 
particularly in South Africa 

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where he is currently based in. 
Then we dive deep into 

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discussing about the best 
practices for onboarding. 

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New technical hires and 
developers into the team. 

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We cover the best practices 
ranging from technical aspects 

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such as tools and Knowledge. 
He's understanding the company's

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domain knowledge and the 
importance of having soft skills

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such as communication and 
collaboration. 

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Towards the end Tanaka also, 
shared with me his lifestyle 

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brand and movement that he has 
been championing called, no days

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off, which has a mission to 
inspire people to chase their 

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goals and dreams consistently. 
Personally. 

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I think onboarding a new hire is
one of the most important things

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to get right in any team. 
And Company in order to 

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facilitate a smooth transition 
of the new people joining your 

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company and to start getting 
them to being productive as soon

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as possible. 
In fact, from the new joiners 

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point of view, the onboarding 
experience can often tell a lot 

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about the company culture and 
quite likely, how enjoyable 

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their experience would be once 
they transition fully into 

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working at the company. 
So if you find something from 

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this episode on how to improve 
the onboarding experience in 

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your team or company, make sure 
that you give those best 

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practices a try in order to give
your new joiners the best 

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onboarding experience ever. 
I hope you will enjoy this 

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episode and if you like it, 
consider helping the show by 

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this podcast. 
So let's get the episode started

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Hey everyone, welcome back to 

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another show of the technology. 
You know today. 

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I am so excited to meet someone 
from far away. 

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His name is Tanaka motagua. 
So he reached out to me through 

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social media. 
He's someone from South Africa 

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and has been active in the 
community in the technical 

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leadership community. 
And he's someone that is willing

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to share his learning his 
knowledge and experience to all 

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of us here. 
So, I'm excited to announce the 

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Nakamoto Hawaii as my guest 
today and looking forward for 

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this conversation with him. 
So, the Maybe in the first few 

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minutes. 
Can you introduce yourself? 

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All of us to know more about 
you? 

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Thank you, Henry. 
Thanks for having me on the 

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podcast. 
Yeah, my name is Tanaka my 

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chakra. 
I am an engineering leader, 

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based out of Cape Town, in South
Africa. 

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I'm originally from Zimbabwe 
actually, which borders, South 

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Africa, and I grew up there and 
did my primary school and high 

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school education. 
In Zimbabwe before, moving 

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across to South Africa, to study
computer science at the 

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University of Cape Town. 
I'm and I've been living in Cape

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Town for the last 12 years. 
So after finishing University, I

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started working in the software 
engineering industry and I've 

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always lived in Cape Town. 
So I haven't left. 

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I enjoy living in the city and I
love it. 

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Right. 
So Tanaka you currently working 

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in names and faces, right? 
The name itself. 

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Sounds interesting. 
So can you share with us? 

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What is names and faces? 
Yes, names and faces. 

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We are start up a technology 
startup. 

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Our businesses, we met Visual 
employee directory. 

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That is quick and easy to access
and helps people at companies 

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know who's who are their 
organization and gain context 

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into what their fellow employees
do and where they fit in the 

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organization. 
The ideas, its helps people get 

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more connected across a company 
by using the visual images of 

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their faces. 
So you can identify people more 

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easily, and we typically solve a
problem for companies that are 

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getting a bit big, so, over a 
hundred to over T people, 

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basically, you don't know 
everyone when the company starts

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going to that size and usually 
you need a tool that can help 

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you. 
If you see someone, can you 

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identify them in the app and see
where they fit in? 

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Or if you recently joined the 
company, for example, you get 

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introduced a lot of new people 
at the company. 

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And the next day you come in. 
You can't really remember 

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people's names. 
But if you've got the names and 

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faces application, you can then 
take it out and just check out 

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who's who and what their names 
are where they fit in. 

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We make the application for us. 
Droid and iOS and we have a web 

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application. 
It's software-as-a-service 

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applications. 
So companies will pay us to have

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the application running for 
them. 

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So Tonetta maybe in the 
beginning would you like to 

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share your career Journey so 
far? 

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Maybe you can mention some of 
the highlights that you have 

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towards your career and also 
maybe major turning points if 

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you have something interesting 
to share with us. 

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Yes. 
So as I mentioned earlier, I 

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studied computer science at the 
University of Cape Town. 

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So I would say one of the my 
first career turning points was 

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actually my final year at the 
University. 

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I applied for an internship, 
six-week internship at a company

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called Alan gray, which is an 
investment management company. 

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So over our University vacation 
break. 

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I got the internship and I 
worked a long three other 

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interns and we worked with the 
company as software Engineers 

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for the company. 
We had to build a 360 degree 

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feedback tool for the employees 
of the company and it was my 

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first exposure to what I was 
actually, ID and what it meant 

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in the real world. 
And how real companies actually 

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operate in building software 
what it means to build a 

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production system, what 
processes, and our team's work 

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and everything like that. 
And at the end of that 

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internship, actually the company
was happy with my performance 

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there and asked me to join after
I finished University does great

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exposure. 
I was happy with the company had

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seen that, they had lots of good
people and good practices and I 

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agreed to join them. 
So, I started as a graduate 

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engineer and I Grew From There 
into a Jew. 

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Junior engineer and mid-level 
engineer and ended up spending 

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four years. 
They thought was my Foundation 

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of my technology. 
Korea does my first exposure to 

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Agile development, agile, 
methodologies and how teams get 

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structured. 
And as I mentioned, our sort of 

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software gets released to 
production and everything. 

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The company had a very strong 
client focused. 

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So we really made sure. 
Everything we did was always of 

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a high quality. 
It was definitely a traditional 

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corporate structure the 
operator. 

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Thousand people at the company. 
It was a company that was 

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already doing well. 
So after four years, I always 

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had an interest in 
entrepreneurship and startups 

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and seeing how a proper tech 
company or take driven company 

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works. 
So I got an opportunity to join 

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a start-up. 
Then, after four years. 

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It was called Prodigy. 
Finance at that point. 

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There are about 20 people there.
And I joined as the fourth 

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software engineer, and my goal, 
there was just to see how 

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companies start from being very 
small. 

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Knees and grow into big 
companies. 

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So I thought that would be a 
great learning as I joined Alan 

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gray earlier. 
It was really a big company, a 

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lot of things already in place. 
You're not quite sure how they 

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got to that place. 
And I thought that this new 

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startup I'd be able to learn 
about shaping or that and how we

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grow into a big company. 
I actually got all that to that 

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startups experience because for 
years later, the company had 

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grown to over 200 people and had
offices now in London and in New

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York, and we're presence in 
India, to, at the time. 

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I left home. 
In that Journey at that startup 

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because I had been there from 
the early days and I had a lot 

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of context of how the systems 
were set up and how things 

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worked. 
I got an opportunity to Mentor 

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new Engineers as the engineering
team grew and they joined. 

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I also was involved in setting 
up an internship program for new

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interns that we're trying to 
support during their vacation, 

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the university vacations because
I always thought that was 

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important when I did mine, so I 
thought it would help the future

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students to also get that the 
company had some point wanted to

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Do as it was growing, wanted new
engineering managers. 

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So they opened up for people to 
apply to be engineering managers

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because the teams were growing 
and we needed more engineering 

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managers and I applied for that 
role. 

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00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:05,000
I got into that position and 
that was my first exposure to 

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management and take leadership 
at that point. 

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Initially. 
I started with five people 

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reporting into me and I started 
learning and growing. 

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My tech leadership skills. 
I always had an interest in GA 

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leadership and smile involvement
in the internships and mentoring

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people and also worth 
mentioning. 

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That the company had offered a 
leadership training program the 

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year before, and I had actually 
gone through that over the year,

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where we had people who came and
taught us, what the different 

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things you need to learn to 
prepare you to be a leader. 

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00:11:32,900 --> 00:11:36,300
So, yeah, so that helped me grow
and eventually I left party, 

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00:11:36,300 --> 00:11:39,200
finance and moved across the 
names and faces, which I spoke 

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00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,200
about a bit earlier that names 
and faces. 

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I was recruited as the VP of 
engineering. 

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So, with my role, they ensuring 
the engineering team or the tech

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team is delivering and working. 
Well, we During we're delivering

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software at a good speed and 
software of good quality my 

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role. 
They primarily focuses on four 

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main areas. 
I would say, when I always get 

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00:12:00,500 --> 00:12:03,600
asked how I described it as I'm 
responsible for the people, 

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making sure they're growing 
their careers, and I happy at 

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00:12:06,300 --> 00:12:08,600
the company and the environment,
they're in allows them to 

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00:12:08,600 --> 00:12:10,200
thrive. 
I'm responsible for the 

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00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,200
technology teams processes. 
So how do we actually build and 

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00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,200
deliver software? 
I'm also involved in the 

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technology side. 
What tech stack are we using? 

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And what risks can we Face? 
It all the different 

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Technologies and the systems we 
have what's our architecture? 

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Like I'm involved in that. 
I'm also involved in product. 

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So everyone in the company is 
but you're also involved as a 

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leader in. 
What's our product? 

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What features are we? 
Adding ways? 

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Our product going out, we sell 
it and everything, and I've been

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at names and faces for a year 
and four months. 

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So, continuing my leadership 
growth and interest in small 

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startups, and high impact 
businesses, that's been going 

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well, and that's where I am at 
the moment. 

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So, in summary, that's Yeah, 
that's about my career Journey, 

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sort of straight out of 
University into a corporate way.

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I got Foundation of learning, 
then into a small start-up That 

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Grew got exposed to leadership 
and then back to a small 

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start-up. 
But in a leadership position and

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continuing on that Journey. 
Thanks for sharing that. 

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So you seem to have a very 
diverse experience from 

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corporate like big corporate and
also in a start-up as well. 

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One thing that I personally 
don't know much about is the 

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South Africa or Africa 
technology landscape. 

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Maybe you can share a little bit
How thriving in terms of the 

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technology adoption there or add
a lot of tech startups being 

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built up in the Africa or how 
about the people skills? 

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Their do you think they have the
sufficient capability to also 

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thrive in this technology 
industry. 

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Yes. 
Sure. 

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I can chat about that a bit. 
I think I'll start with South 

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Africa, then I'll briefly touch 
on Africa. 

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South Africa is obviously where 
I've lived for the last 12 

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years. 
So, I've got more context and 

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also having been working in the 
industry, the tech landscape and

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industry has definitely grown, 
especially over the last 10 

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years. 
I would say, from the time, I 

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started working, actually. 
This is my 10th year working. 

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So now there's been a lot of 
startups that have been formed 

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and there's been growth in the 
tech, ecosystem, and Community 

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across computer science in 
itself at the University's is 

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also now a more accepted degree 
more. 

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People are going to study it, as
they realize, they've never been

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a better time. 
I think to be a technologist and

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right now in the world, there is
a high demand for engineers and 

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more than the supply that 
They're so people now realize 

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that it's also a viable job to 
actually be a programmer or to 

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be involved in the technology 
Community. 

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But in terms of startups, even a
lot of startups that have been 

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formed in interesting areas. 
A lot of them were in fintech or

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I in the fintech space actually 
people doing cardless payments. 

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People being involved in like 
where did you finance where I 

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00:14:42,208 --> 00:14:44,600
work. 
That was order less loans for 

284
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international students studying 
abroad people involved in the 

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blockchain and the crypto space.
So there's been a A lot in that 

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and a lot of opportunities for 
people to learn different things

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and grow. 
And also we've had some 

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companies or startups that have 
had some exits or been purchased

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or acquired in recent years that
have also been proven that a 

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company can start in South 
Africa, in Cape Town and 

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actually go through the full 
journey of being funded and then

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going through some exit of some 
sort. 

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What mentioning this is Luna. 
Which recently actually just 

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exited, which is an exchange 
trip to exchange for Bitcoin 

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mainly and there's Company 
called over, which was bought by

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Go Daddy again very recently. 
And if we go on the Africa, 

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00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,500
landscape itself, there is quite
a bit of tech that's been 

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00:15:31,500 --> 00:15:34,800
happening in Kenya, over the 
last 10 years to there's a lot 

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of innovation in that space 
around payments, Mobile payment 

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Technologies and a quite a 
number of startups. 

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Have also grown out of that 
race. 

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And of course Nigeria is always 
a big player in Africa for 

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anything and there's also quite 
a number of startups. 

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00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:50,900
They that are formed more 
recently actually. 

305
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:53,900
We a company called pay stack, 
which does payments is in the 

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00:15:53,900 --> 00:15:56,300
payment Technologies was 
recently bought by stripe. 

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00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,700
So, Africa, in itself, you 
wouldn't say, out of all the 

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countries, every one of them as 
a big thriving, Tech Community, 

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00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:07,600
but I think South Africa Kenya 
and Nigeria would be the three 

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you would find. 
Most people are working for Tech

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startups. 
OR tech companies would be 

312
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,400
sitting, either will be working 
remotely for company. 

313
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:16,700
That's based in one of those 
countries or actually move 

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00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,700
across to those countries. 
Another thing worth mentioning 

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00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:25,800
actually is for Uptown couple 
years ago, Amazon AWS actually 

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00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:30,100
opened up Offices here and they 
did a massive recruitment Ryan 

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00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:31,600
and they've got lots of 
Engineers. 

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00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,200
Yeah, so they're easy to teams 
actually running out of Cape 

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00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,400
Town. 
So it's nowhere near in scale, 

320
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,300
like a Silicon Valley, but then 
there's a lot that's happening 

321
00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:43,300
and more and more is going to 
keep going because I think as we

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00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,000
know the technology, you all 
just keeps growing, there's more

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00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,800
opportunities. 
More people are connected, more 

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00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,600
people are smart phones. 
The internet is also spreading 

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00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:51,500
even further. 
Further. 

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00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:53,500
So I can only see it expanding 
and growing. 

327
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,600
And the last thing I'll touch on
is skills. 

328
00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,300
They would want more Engineers 
so that we can meet the demand. 

329
00:16:58,300 --> 00:17:01,900
But we've got some really strong
strong candidates and strong 

330
00:17:01,900 --> 00:17:05,200
people in South Africa. 
And Africa would say as a whole,

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00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:07,700
I think the very fact that 
Amazon could sit up here and be 

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00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:12,500
able to recruit and run the ec2 
teams out of ya shows that we've

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00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:15,599
got the skill levels. 
I think often what missed is if 

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00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:19,300
people work in Silicon Valley or
work at a company, a top company

335
00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:22,300
in the valley, it can easily be 
In as though they are the most 

336
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:25,200
skilled person and we miss out 
on very strong Engineers that 

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00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:28,700
are based in Africa. 
And at the moment information is

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00:17:28,700 --> 00:17:30,600
the same, right? 
If you've got a good internet 

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00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,200
connection, you can learn the 
exact same things that someone 

340
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:36,700
whether in the states or 
anywhere else is learning, and 

341
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:40,600
you can be as skilled as them. 
So I think the main mismatch is 

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00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,400
actually more a case of 
companies that start in Africa 

343
00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:47,000
and then end up being global 
companies. 

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00:17:47,300 --> 00:17:50,400
That's I think the more 
difficult battle we have from an

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00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:53,500
African Forest. - because our 
context is very different and 

346
00:17:53,500 --> 00:17:56,100
it's going to be difficult. 
So it's going to take time to 

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00:17:56,100 --> 00:17:58,500
find a lot of startups. 
I start in Africa, and then they

348
00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:00,800
expand and they are well known 
in the world like a Facebook 

349
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,300
that comes out of an Africa or 
something like that. 

350
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,500
But in terms of skill, I think 
we're on par. 

351
00:18:06,100 --> 00:18:08,600
So it's very interesting and 
sounds like pretty cool. 

352
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:12,300
So Africa or South Africa itself
is growing in terms of this Tech

353
00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:15,400
adoptions and also the startups 
couple of times that a lot of 

354
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:19,400
Industries or the startups 
around payment or maybe banking 

355
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,300
digital banking blockchain. 
And things like that, are there 

356
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,800
any other industries that are 
also thriving in terms of tech 

357
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,500
adoption from Africa? 
Yeah. 

358
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:33,200
I think there are few people 
doing things in farming and 

359
00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,900
Education Health. 
The people go out to help in the

360
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,200
rural areas and those agents 
collecting information and 

361
00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:43,900
pushing it back to some Central 
server of some sort. 

362
00:18:43,900 --> 00:18:46,400
There's definitely Innovation 
happening day. 

363
00:18:46,700 --> 00:18:50,100
They just haven't been many, big
exits, because some of those 

364
00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,900
usually, then I'm very closely 
related to social projects and I

365
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:57,900
think people push or rush to the
fintech or payments and 

366
00:18:57,900 --> 00:19:00,000
everything because it's money 
related. 

367
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,600
That's where money is. 
So if you can make it there, 

368
00:19:02,700 --> 00:19:05,900
you're easily tied to money and 
funding also, which is something

369
00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,600
we haven't spoken about access 
to funding is nowhere near the 

370
00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,500
scale. 
It sat in the states, in the 

371
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,500
valley of Silicon Valley are 
stories of someone, who gets 

372
00:19:14,500 --> 00:19:16,800
funding from a slide deck of an 
idea. 

373
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,300
They have, whereas in Africa. 
I think it's more than you need 

374
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:23,800
to have the In this actually 
operating The Tick already in 

375
00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,600
place on some sort and some 
proven track record. 

376
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,500
Have you worked for 20 years? 
Have you maybe started another 

377
00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:31,900
company before and who's your 
connection? 

378
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:35,400
So the amount of capital 
available is limited but also 

379
00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,800
even in that Capital, the due 
diligence is quite strong into 

380
00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:41,500
like, we, they are willing to 
find and we don't have many 

381
00:19:41,500 --> 00:19:44,900
Venture capitalists or seed 
funders that are willing to push

382
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:46,800
out money. 
So that makes it also a bit 

383
00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,800
tricky. 
For some people have ideas and 

384
00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,900
everything, but they can't 
exactly experiment with them. 

385
00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:54,500
On the scale at someone in 
Silicon Valley, you would in 

386
00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:58,000
terms of the community itself. 
I know you run a Meetup or 

387
00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:00,500
technical leadership. 
How about the community itself? 

388
00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:02,100
Are there. 
Lots of you know Community 

389
00:20:02,100 --> 00:20:05,400
meetups or maybe sharing within 
the community for people to 

390
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,200
exchange knowledge and 
information or maybe even for 

391
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,000
example, sharing about their 
company or what they are doing 

392
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,200
and the tech stack that they're 
building, are there. 

393
00:20:13,200 --> 00:20:15,000
Lots of such things. 
Yes. 

394
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,800
So those have also been growing 
quite a lot lately. 

395
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,700
I'll speak a bit about some of 
them and they're not expanding 

396
00:20:20,700 --> 00:20:22,800
to. 
Leadership Meetup, which I know 

397
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,300
more of since I started it and 
I've been involved but they are 

398
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:28,400
quite a number. 
There is a devops meet up which 

399
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:31,600
is quite popular. 
So the devops engineers and they

400
00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,900
talked about like infrastructure
and how to get applications to 

401
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:39,200
production and how they run in 
production monitoring and 

402
00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,700
everything of that sort. 
That's quite popular and has 

403
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:43,800
grown. 
There is a Cape Town, Front End 

404
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,400
developers meet up. 
There's quite a number of agile 

405
00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,500
meetups. 
So it's a scram Gathering of 

406
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:52,900
South Erica. 
So there is quite a lot 

407
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:55,500
happening in the community 
around sharing knowledge, and 

408
00:20:55,500 --> 00:20:57,500
people meeting and gathering 
together. 

409
00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:00,100
So, that's definitely there. 
Of course, we have the tech 

410
00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:04,000
leadership meet up, which I 
started and supported by two 

411
00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:07,700
former colleagues Benny and 
Roberto who I met with just at 

412
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:09,900
the start of it and say that you
guys keen on going on this 

413
00:21:09,900 --> 00:21:12,800
journey because I think there's 
a gap in the Cape Town community

414
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:15,300
or at least in the South Africa 
community and perhaps even 

415
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:18,900
Africa's. 
All way immutable group or 

416
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:20,800
community that comes and 
discusses. 

417
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,500
Technical leadership, Concepts 
and helps each other grow and 

418
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:28,000
take leadership. 
So, our Meetup is for new tech, 

419
00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:31,200
leaders aspiring Tech leaders, 
and even established ones. 

420
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:34,800
It's just about coming together,
sharing ideas and helping each 

421
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,600
other, learn and grow, but also 
building friendships, so that if

422
00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:40,500
you need help in the future, 
you've got someone else. 

423
00:21:40,500 --> 00:21:44,100
You can chat to you possibly met
at a meet up and our hypothesis 

424
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,700
is that if we can help these 
Tech leaders, who come to join 

425
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,600
our community grow, and become 
better leaders when they go 

426
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,900
back. 
To their companies do help make 

427
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:56,600
their companies better places to
work and as a result that helped

428
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,900
improve companies, take 
companies across Africa and 

429
00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:01,700
would improve the industry as a 
whole. 

430
00:22:02,100 --> 00:22:05,500
So that's sort of our hypothesis
and our goal and we meet once a 

431
00:22:05,508 --> 00:22:07,700
month. 
First Tuesday, of each month. 

432
00:22:07,900 --> 00:22:11,000
We normally have a speaker who 
comes and joins us and shares 

433
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,100
some lessons on leadership and 
then people can ask questions 

434
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:16,100
afterwards. 
We've had other different 

435
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,600
formats. 
Also, where people perhaps bring

436
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,300
questions or problems. 
They're facing at their Any. 

437
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:23,900
And then they break out into 
groups and discuss these topics 

438
00:22:23,900 --> 00:22:25,500
and issues. 
They are facing and help each 

439
00:22:25,500 --> 00:22:27,900
other. 
It was very much in person until

440
00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:30,000
the pandemic. 
So now we've been doing them 

441
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,200
online, but that has also opened
up the opportunity for us to 

442
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:36,000
have invited speakers from 
outside Africa. 

443
00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,900
So, we've had a couple of 
speakers one from Berlin, one 

444
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:41,600
from London. 
And they've also share their 

445
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:44,100
story with us, and it's also 
allowed people who are not in 

446
00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:48,100
Cape Town only to attend. 
So, I think, after the pandemic 

447
00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:51,800
will probably have a mix way 
sometimes, We do an in-person 

448
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,300
one and sometimes we do one 
online as we've been doing. 

449
00:22:54,700 --> 00:22:57,500
Yeah, so that's where it is. 
And I think we'll keep growing 

450
00:22:57,500 --> 00:23:00,200
that Community. 
One of the big things I learned 

451
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,000
as I've been going through this 
software engineering journey, is

452
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,700
that a lot of the times 
technical leaders are not 

453
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:09,500
prepared for the role. 
They are pushed into the role 

454
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,300
because maybe someone identifies
that this person is really good 

455
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,100
at coding. 
And they say, let's make them a 

456
00:23:14,108 --> 00:23:17,200
leader or a manager, but then 
there's a big mismatch there. 

457
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:19,700
Because management skills, 
leadership skills are very 

458
00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:23,400
different from the You have as 
an incredible code, is a lot 

459
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:26,300
that comes with the management 
skills about communication, 

460
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:30,300
helping to facilitate meetings, 
managing conflict between team 

461
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:32,900
members, and some people are not
prepared for that. 

462
00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:35,400
And when they then in the road 
and they get frustrated and they

463
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,600
become a bad manager and then 
their whole team is not happy 

464
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:40,900
and ends up leaving. 
And it looks like they were 

465
00:23:40,900 --> 00:23:43,300
never a great manager. 
But what's missing is that they 

466
00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:45,400
were never prepared for the 
role. 

467
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:49,300
That's part of also, why we say 
our take leadership Meetup is 

468
00:23:49,300 --> 00:23:52,400
for aspiring Tech leaders. 
So that if people want to start 

469
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,000
learning about it and maybe a 
year or two later, they venture 

470
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,400
to get into a leadership 
position. 

471
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:58,800
They've been exposed to a lot of
different things that take 

472
00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,800
leaders do or should do. 
I totally agree with you. 

473
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,700
I find it very true that 
technical leaders. 

474
00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:06,400
Most of us are thrown into the 
role sort of. 

475
00:24:06,500 --> 00:24:09,700
We have grown in the individual 
contributor role for quite some 

476
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,000
time. 
Maybe they is as someone who has

477
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,200
potential to lead and yeah, just
like that one day, you become a 

478
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,000
manager or become a technical 
lead and that's where I think 

479
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:20,800
the and preparation shows that 
we also need to grow at 

480
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,400
Particular skill as well by 
communication facilitation 

481
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:26,200
resolving conflicts and things 
like that. 

482
00:24:26,300 --> 00:24:29,000
You have been working in a big 
corporate and you have been 

483
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,000
working now as a VP of 
Engineering, in names and faces.

484
00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,900
So coming to the topic that you 
want to share with us today, 

485
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:38,100
which is about onboarding new 
software Engineers as part of 

486
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:40,300
these topic. 
First of all, what are some of 

487
00:24:40,300 --> 00:24:43,400
the things that are critical for
onboarding, a new software 

488
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:47,100
engineer coming to the company? 
Let me go back a bit and say, 

489
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,200
let's start at why do people 
recruit Engineers so, So when 

490
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,900
you recruit an engineer on your 
team, or you put a couple of 

491
00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:56,400
Engineers on your team, your 
goal is that once they are on 

492
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,400
your team, there's productive as
they can be as fast as possible.

493
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,200
So that the team starts pushing 
out more things and you get your

494
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,900
value back because you're paying
this engineer for the work, 

495
00:25:06,900 --> 00:25:09,000
they're doing and you get your 
value back from them in the 

496
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,500
output that they are producing. 
So, one of the key things or one

497
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,700
would think, one of the most 
important things is once you've 

498
00:25:14,700 --> 00:25:16,800
hired someone, and you've gone 
through the whole hiring 

499
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,300
process, you don't just end day 
and put someone in a room and 

500
00:25:20,300 --> 00:25:22,600
say, yeah. 
Go ahead and I'll start working.

501
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,000
You actually want to make sure 
from their first day on you, 

502
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,400
give them the smoothest entry 
into your company and help them 

503
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,500
and assist them in as many ways 
as you can to become productive 

504
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:36,200
as fast as possible. 
So then coming to that, what I 

505
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:39,300
look at is, what makes someone a
good engineer. 

506
00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,800
And in my mind, these three 
areas that make someone a good 

507
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:45,600
engineer. 
One is their understanding and 

508
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,400
capability with tools and 
Technologies, programming 

509
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,900
languages and Frameworks, and 
all the Supporting technologies 

510
00:25:51,900 --> 00:25:54,800
that you use at your company. 
They need to be good at that and

511
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,300
really greater that. 
Then there is the domain 

512
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:00,100
knowledge, which is 
understanding what the business 

513
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:03,200
is about and how it relates. 
The Technologies were writing. 

514
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:06,000
How does the business make money
out of the business function? 

515
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:08,100
And how do we sell? 
What's our product? 

516
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,000
And what are we building? 
And then surrounding those two 

517
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,000
is in my mind, soft skills, 
because software is all mostly 

518
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,000
often about collaboration. 
So most people working in teams,

519
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:19,900
it's real. 
Yes, you have it, but it's rare 

520
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,300
to find people what? 
Being in isolation, especially 

521
00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:24,500
if it's a big enough product or 
bigger company. 

522
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:26,700
It's usually in teams. 
So, you're collaborating with 

523
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:30,100
Engineers on your team, perhaps 
with Engineers on other teams. 

524
00:26:30,100 --> 00:26:32,500
Maybe they've both the API and 
you're doing the front end, and 

525
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,900
you need to interact with them. 
He also collaborating with 

526
00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:37,700
people in other departments that
are not technologists. 

527
00:26:37,700 --> 00:26:39,700
And you need to be able to 
communicate with them in a 

528
00:26:39,700 --> 00:26:42,400
non-technical way so that they 
can understand what you're 

529
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,100
dealing with the tech side and 
then perhaps you may interact, 

530
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:47,200
depending on your company, you 
may interact with users. 

531
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,700
So there's so many things around
soft skills and managing. 

532
00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,100
Communication and facilitating 
and everything that comes to 

533
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:55,500
that. 
So, those are the three key 

534
00:26:55,500 --> 00:26:58,300
areas in my mind is, like tools 
and Technologies. 

535
00:26:58,300 --> 00:27:01,000
A domain knowledge, which is 
understanding the business and 

536
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,900
soft skills underneath each of 
those three things that you can 

537
00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:09,100
do when your own boarding, 
someone that can help them learn

538
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:12,000
each of those areas and you can 
help them fast-track their 

539
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,200
knowledge and gain in that area.
So, if we go back to tools and 

540
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,600
Technologies and say, how do you
help an engineer? 

541
00:27:18,700 --> 00:27:22,200
Who's just started have context?
If your tools and Technologies, 

542
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:24,400
and again, if I go back to us 
and technology is it could be 

543
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,100
lets say your organization uses 
JavaScript as its main 

544
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:29,300
programming language, and you 
use react. 

545
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:33,800
As your framework, use get your 
code, is an AWS in the cloud. 

546
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,200
There's so many tools and things
around that. 

547
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,700
And when someone first joins, 
one of the things that's 

548
00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:43,000
important to do is as quickly as
possible try to get them to make

549
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,400
real changes to the code base. 
And the reason behind this is 

550
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:49,400
even if it's such a small 
changes, just changing the copy 

551
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:53,100
on a page on a View or something
or just changing the text. 

552
00:27:53,100 --> 00:27:55,200
They need to do that. 
They need to be able to check 

553
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,300
out the code base onto their 
local machine. 

554
00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,600
So then they start to learn 
about your Source control. 

555
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,200
Where does your code live? 
How do I get into the machine? 

556
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,800
How do I get it running on the 
machine because they need to run

557
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,400
tests and everything on your 
machine. 

558
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:09,900
So they need to also learn about
the chest run after they finish 

559
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:11,400
the writing change making that 
change. 

560
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,600
Don't need to push up the code 
and then it gets pushed to some 

561
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:17,200
build servers. 
So white runs our build servers,

562
00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,500
how does the code then get from 
his machine or their machine to 

563
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:22,200
us? 
Aging environment, enter 

564
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,700
production environment. 
So then they also see how the 

565
00:28:24,700 --> 00:28:28,200
structure is of the code coming 
from their local machine back 

566
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:30,400
up. 
So it exposes people to the full

567
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,600
flow of your code, by just 
asking them to make real changes

568
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,300
to the code base as quickly as 
possible. 

569
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:38,200
So that's the first thing that I
would encourage, and if you can 

570
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,700
get it to happen on the first 
day, that is a great thing. 

571
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,500
Some people wait a long time 
until they actually able to push

572
00:28:43,500 --> 00:28:46,400
a change, the other practice 
would be pair programming. 

573
00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:49,500
I would encourage new Engineers 
to pay program with existing 

574
00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:52,900
Engineers that were on the team.
Before this helps on multiple 

575
00:28:52,900 --> 00:28:56,600
aspects, with the main one being
just gaining context and someone

576
00:28:56,600 --> 00:28:59,300
being available to answer 
questions for you when you get 

577
00:28:59,300 --> 00:29:02,100
stuck, someone who can navigate 
the code base, can explain 

578
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:04,400
exactly what's happening and 
where things are. 

579
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:07,500
And then also you get to know 
your teammates a bit more by 

580
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,400
programming with them. 
Ideally you want to pay program 

581
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,300
with different people on the 
team. 

582
00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:15,000
So you rotate so that they get 
to know the rest of the team. 

583
00:29:15,100 --> 00:29:18,100
And also you want to rotate 
who's actually doing the driving

584
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,000
on the paper gramming. 
So sometimes the new person Of 

585
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,200
them with their familiarity. 
Sometimes they also just 

586
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,500
watching you drive and they 
learn like the different tricks 

587
00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:27,600
that you have in your 
understanding of your code base.

588
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,800
Also, if you have any onboarding
documentation, that would be 

589
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,600
useful for helping people on 
board on the tools and 

590
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,800
Technologies. 
If there's any documentation, 

591
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,500
that's written somewhere else 
that allows people to quickly 

592
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,000
read and say, oh I understand 
that's all the build systems 

593
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:43,900
work or even if it's on a 
guitar, but GitHub repository of

594
00:29:43,900 --> 00:29:47,200
how to set up the code base and 
how the architecture structured 

595
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,400
that could be useful. 
The important thing with 

596
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,900
documentation as always. 
Is to make sure it's always up 

597
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:54,600
to date because sometimes it can
be more confusing if it's not 

598
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,000
updated. 
And if the new person finds that

599
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,700
some documentation is out of 
date, you should encourage them 

600
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:03,200
to be the ones updated. 
So every new person always makes

601
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,600
sure we are on the latest 
version of how we are 

602
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,400
structured. 
And then the final thing on 

603
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,800
tools and Technologies is, as a 
company, perhaps keep a list of 

604
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,300
resources that people can use 
for learning. 

605
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,800
So whether it's books or online 
courses or blog posts that are 

606
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,900
tied to the Technologies you 
use, It can really be beneficial

607
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:25,500
for someone who is new to learn.
Oh, I need to learn JavaScript. 

608
00:30:25,500 --> 00:30:27,100
What are the resources? 
They need to look at then you 

609
00:30:27,100 --> 00:30:30,000
can just point them to some list
that you have and if your 

610
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,900
company has a good training 
budget or a good budget, if you 

611
00:30:33,908 --> 00:30:37,100
can create a training budget for
all your software Engineers to 

612
00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:39,900
allow them to purchase these 
books and courses from the 

613
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:42,200
company's finances as opposed to
their own. 

614
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,900
It also very beneficial because 
it encourages them to learn a 

615
00:30:44,908 --> 00:30:46,500
bit more. 
So I would say those are the 

616
00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:49,700
four on the technical side 
making real changes to the code 

617
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:52,000
base paper. 
Programming onboarding 

618
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:56,100
documentation and some learning 
lists or learning resources that

619
00:30:56,100 --> 00:30:59,600
are back to the training budget 
that comes from the company on 

620
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:02,400
making real changes. 
I totally agree that the first 

621
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,400
thing. 
If any new hire that comes to 

622
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:08,100
the company is able to make a 
change like what you said, check

623
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,200
out the code understand how to 
run the test and setting up all 

624
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:14,100
the necessary dependencies on 
their machines and going through

625
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:17,100
the continuous integration or 
continuous delivery pipe lines, 

626
00:31:17,100 --> 00:31:20,100
if the company has it and see 
all the automation up to 

627
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:22,900
production at That's really 
really a crucial in order. 

628
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:25,700
To first of all, encourage them 
that they actually they can make

629
00:31:25,700 --> 00:31:28,000
change within such a short 
period of time. 

630
00:31:28,100 --> 00:31:31,300
And the other is, of course, you
understand all the processes and

631
00:31:31,300 --> 00:31:34,200
all the Hoops that are person 
has to go through before they 

632
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,800
can actually make the real 
change pair programming. 

633
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,500
I think it's something that is 
quite interesting. 

634
00:31:39,500 --> 00:31:42,600
Some companies do adopt pair 
programming, while the others do

635
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,200
whole request code review. 
Do you have a view on that? 

636
00:31:45,300 --> 00:31:48,300
What Makes Her programming, much
more efficient, or vice versa? 

637
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:50,600
I don't see it as pay 
programming versa. 

638
00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:55,500
A pull request model, of course.
I mostly agree with the idea 

639
00:31:55,500 --> 00:31:57,600
that Swift codes been written by
someone. 

640
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:00,600
Someone else should perhaps have
a look at it before it goes to 

641
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:02,800
production through a code review
process. 

642
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:05,600
And maybe if people are paid 
programming, then you had that 

643
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,700
person looking at it. 
So you can still just approve 

644
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:10,700
from the other pay. 
One person pushes. 

645
00:32:10,700 --> 00:32:13,300
The other one approves what I 
found works really. 

646
00:32:13,300 --> 00:32:17,100
Well is usually the team is more
than two people anyway, so even 

647
00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:19,800
when people pay, they still 
create a pull request and they 

648
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,600
still share it. 
The rest of the team. 

649
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,700
So if there's other Engineers 
also, with the idea of a pull 

650
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:26,500
request and sharing it with 
everyone else. 

651
00:32:26,500 --> 00:32:29,800
So this context is still there. 
The interesting thing about pair

652
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:33,100
programming versus when we, then
compared on the case of pay 

653
00:32:33,100 --> 00:32:35,800
programming versus workers and 
individual push, and then 

654
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,100
someone else looks as it is with
pay programming, these instant 

655
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:42,100
feedback. 
So you don't have to wait for 

656
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:44,200
your code for like a half a day 
or a day. 

657
00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:47,000
Then you put up a pull request, 
then eventually someone that's 

658
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:49,300
gives you feedback and then you 
go back and address that 

659
00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:52,900
feedback and then A day later, 
you put up another pull request,

660
00:32:52,900 --> 00:32:55,100
then maybe there's more feedback
and you are almost in this. 

661
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,000
Pass it back and forth back and 
forth. 

662
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,500
Whereas the pair programming 
it's like we're together so I 

663
00:32:59,500 --> 00:33:00,800
can give you feedback 
immediately. 

664
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,300
You can give me feedback I can 
catch any issues that I'm stuck 

665
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:06,400
with or errors that I've made 
quite early. 

666
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,000
And also, if you get stuck 
sometimes something just is 

667
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,700
baffling and you get stuck. 
But someone was sitting next to 

668
00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:15,700
you might know the answer and 
instead of then having to wait 

669
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:17,700
for a long time. 
It's immediate. 

670
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,900
So pair programming always, 
encourage collaboration both, In

671
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:24,300
code together, shared ownership 
of the code base as a team. 

672
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:27,800
I would not enforce it. 
I know in the extreme 

673
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:30,500
programming methodology. 
It's enforced in a way. 

674
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:33,500
Almost on everything. 
You have to work as a pay, our 

675
00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:38,400
not enforce it and mostly allow 
the team members to decide as 

676
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,700
they have working on stuff. 
Whether should we pay on this or

677
00:33:40,700 --> 00:33:43,600
should we not what tasks make 
sense to pay on. 

678
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,800
But I have a hypothesis that in 
a high performing team pair 

679
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,200
programming and collaboration 
happens at a very Very high 

680
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,100
rate. 
I can't give the number the 

681
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:56,300
actual percentage but I would 
expect it to be on the high end.

682
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:59,000
So very very high end of a lot 
of people grabbing a lot of 

683
00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,500
collaboration. 
If you find a high performing 

684
00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:04,100
team, those two could correlate.
Yeah. 

685
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:06,200
I think I totally agree with you
as well. 

686
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:08,199
It comes back to the instant 
feedback. 

687
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:09,800
Right? 
So the feedback loop is much 

688
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,900
shorter and that's why you can't
earn more things, either faster 

689
00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:16,400
or you can improve Stars also, 
in a faster way regarding these 

690
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:20,400
documentation and learning 
resources and training, plans 

691
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:21,900
and things. 
I like that in a start-up. 

692
00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,900
Sometimes I think these things 
tends to be neglected. 

693
00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:27,400
Especially, you know, maybe you 
are few people team. 

694
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:30,199
There's not many Engineers that 
are being hired. 

695
00:34:30,300 --> 00:34:33,300
So, what's the balance here that
you think we should spend in 

696
00:34:33,300 --> 00:34:35,699
coming up with a good 
onboarding, documentation and 

697
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:37,100
things like that? 
Yeah. 

698
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:38,600
I think it all depends on 
context. 

699
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,000
As you say in a much smaller 
company, quite a number of 

700
00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,000
things actually in people's 
heads, but also access to them 

701
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,900
then is easier because when you 
join us a new engineer that 

702
00:34:48,900 --> 00:34:51,800
other person who's got it in the
Ada, It's probably always with 

703
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,300
you. 
So that list may not be 

704
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,100
explicitly written down. 
But if you did ask someone who's

705
00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:01,500
just, I'd say it's a team of 
four people only, and you just 

706
00:35:01,500 --> 00:35:03,000
join us. 
The first person and you asked 

707
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,800
to all the other four, guys. 
I wish resources. 

708
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,500
Do you recommend? 
They could send them to you 

709
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:09,300
within 30 minutes. 
So then perhaps not having the 

710
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:12,700
documentation in that case could
be fine because you still get 

711
00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:16,000
access to it anyway, but I would
always encourage things to be 

712
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:17,600
done earlier. 
In any case. 

713
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,000
You just don't know when things 
start sort of breaking and 

714
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,700
falling. 
The longer you hold onto things 

715
00:35:22,700 --> 00:35:26,000
and eventually, get to a place 
where perhaps like how to setup 

716
00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,100
a repository is not documented 
but then over a six-month 

717
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:32,900
period, the company really grows
and now only a few people know 

718
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:36,000
how to do it and it becomes a 
key man dependency issue. 

719
00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:38,700
It usually doesn't take that 
long for some of these things to

720
00:35:38,700 --> 00:35:41,300
be documented. 
So if someone spends like 30 

721
00:35:41,300 --> 00:35:43,900
minutes to an hour, just does it
stay. 

722
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:47,500
And it lives the, it's better 
than it's in someone's head. 

723
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,600
But I do completely understand 
in a very small start-up. 

724
00:35:50,700 --> 00:35:54,100
Is specially very early stages. 
Quite a lot of things live in 

725
00:35:54,100 --> 00:35:57,100
people's heads and get shared by
just talking but once it starts 

726
00:35:57,100 --> 00:36:00,200
growing, I think when you start 
getting to like two teams and up

727
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,900
which is quite a lot of 
organizations are much bigger 

728
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,300
with 300 400 people teams and 
everything. 

729
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:07,500
You definitely need some 
structure. 

730
00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:09,300
They and you want to have it in 
place. 

731
00:36:09,700 --> 00:36:12,800
My total take on that is that 
it's okay for you if let's say 

732
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,100
you do your first or second 
higher, but once you get beyond 

733
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,200
that, I think you need to start 
writing down the process or the 

734
00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:21,200
framework that you do. 
Sting right. 

735
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:22,900
Like, the example, hiring the 
third person. 

736
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,900
You would be probably spending 
some time in order to come up 

737
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:28,100
with the onboarding document. 
So that the next person, the 

738
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:30,600
fourth person that comes in 
actually has a proper 

739
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,900
documentation process in place, 
and it gets updated like what 

740
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:35,700
you said. 
So especially if the new 

741
00:36:35,700 --> 00:36:38,500
joiners, see something that is 
probably not, so, right? 

742
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:41,300
They can take that chance to 
update it, and make sure that 

743
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:43,900
the fifth higher gets the 
updated documentation. 

744
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,800
So we have covered the tools and
Technologies. 

745
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,400
The next one that you mentioned 
is about domain knowledge. 

746
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:51,100
Can you share a little bit on? 
On that. 

747
00:36:51,500 --> 00:36:54,900
Here are so domain knowledge. 
Like I said, is really about 

748
00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:57,000
understanding. 
It's very important. 

749
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,500
It's really about understanding 
the business and the business we

750
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:02,700
are working for. 
How do we make money? 

751
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,500
What's our project? 
How does the company work in 

752
00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,700
general, what to other people in
other departments? 

753
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:11,100
Do and others are technology 
that we are writing relates to 

754
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:13,700
all this. 
And it's an important thing for 

755
00:37:13,700 --> 00:37:17,000
an engineer to have because you 
can have all the understanding 

756
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:20,000
of the technology, but if you 
don't know what you're building 

757
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,100
for then, To always be confusing
and that context always be 

758
00:37:23,100 --> 00:37:26,500
missing and also Engineers can 
also come up with very bright 

759
00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:29,200
ideas for the business and 
solving business problems. 

760
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:33,700
So the more they understand what
the business is the are for and 

761
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,600
what product, it actually has 
the more likely you'll be able 

762
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,100
to also get ideas coming across 
from Engineers. 

763
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,600
So, with domain knowledge, one 
of the ways is induction 

764
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:46,200
training and by induction 
training, I mean being able to 

765
00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,000
go and understand what all the 
other people in the company, do 

766
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:52,000
other. 
Ointments in the company, do it 

767
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,800
something that is common in 
bigger companies. 

768
00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,900
So when you start at a new job, 
you will get exposed to at some 

769
00:37:58,900 --> 00:38:01,000
point. 
What's marketing department. 

770
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:03,900
Like what's the sales department
like was the finance department?

771
00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:07,200
Like what happens there? 
Who is they and everything, and 

772
00:38:07,300 --> 00:38:10,700
a bit about what's the product 
and everything that we do in 

773
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:13,200
smaller companies? 
Like you say, when we're talking

774
00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,800
even about the Learning Resource
and onboarding documentation. 

775
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:20,100
Now you can get that sort of 
detail again from your peers, 

776
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:24,000
whether One was that your 
manager or project manager? 

777
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,500
If the team meridians are 
project manager in the, they can

778
00:38:26,500 --> 00:38:28,800
give you a full overview of the 
company. 

779
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,500
So it varies where you can 
source that information, but I 

780
00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:35,200
think the important part about 
the domain knowledge point is 

781
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:39,100
understand how the business 
functions understand how we make

782
00:38:39,100 --> 00:38:42,200
money and what product are you 
putting out there and then 

783
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,900
relate all these back to the 
technology that that Engineers. 

784
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:48,200
Right? 
So that's domain knowledge. 

785
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,400
So yeah, I do agree with you. 
Sometimes we We tend to see a 

786
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:54,800
lot of engineers in a software 
company tech company or even 

787
00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,500
like business companies. 
They seem to have a lot of 

788
00:38:57,500 --> 00:39:00,400
expertise about technology. 
They do care about the 

789
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,300
technology, but they don't care 
about the business or what the 

790
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:05,300
product is being used by the 
users. 

791
00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,600
So I think this is one of the 
major challenges in the industry

792
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:10,900
because people love the tech, 
but not so much. 

793
00:39:10,900 --> 00:39:14,600
The solving the users problems. 
I find that the problem is not 

794
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,700
easily solved. 
I think it goes back to the 

795
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:19,500
individuals. 
So from your experience, maybe 

796
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,300
from your Looking different 
companies so far. 

797
00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:26,400
How can you ensure someone has a
motivation to actually learn 

798
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,700
about the business? 
Learn about the process on how 

799
00:39:29,700 --> 00:39:32,900
the company makes money, or even
like how the product actually 

800
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:35,700
solves the users problem. 
Is there any tips that you see 

801
00:39:35,700 --> 00:39:38,200
from your experience of her? 
Some of the things I would 

802
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,300
suggest is I think one of the 
main causes of the lack of 

803
00:39:41,300 --> 00:39:44,700
interest is also how companies 
are structured and how they have

804
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:48,100
this separation of all, those 
are The Tech, Guys, put them in 

805
00:39:48,100 --> 00:39:50,500
that corner and then we are the 
business, guys. 

806
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,300
And we are doing our own thing 
in this space, But at the end of

807
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:56,500
the day is one company. 
And I think one of the things 

808
00:39:56,500 --> 00:39:59,600
leadership has to do right from 
the top, is to make sure 

809
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,500
everyone collaborates and 
functions as one unit. 

810
00:40:02,700 --> 00:40:05,400
And there's many ways to be 
doing that, but ensuring that 

811
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,600
whatever technology is working 
on aligns, with where the 

812
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:10,900
company is trying to go in the 
company's goals. 

813
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:13,600
So that the technical, people 
can see the impact of the work, 

814
00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,300
they do relating to the outcomes
for the company. 

815
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:19,900
If people build a new system and
it brings in a certain amount of

816
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:22,100
money for the company. 
Penny, there's more of a passion

817
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,500
of understanding. 
How's that system, bringing that

818
00:40:24,500 --> 00:40:26,200
money and what impact can it 
make? 

819
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,800
Then almost just getting told to
just build that system and do 

820
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,700
that and you're not quite sure 
why and everything, that's the 

821
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:35,400
one that's bringing up alignment
in the team's close eye on 

822
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,100
everything and what they do 
engineers like to solve 

823
00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:40,500
problems. 
There's also a different 

824
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:43,000
approach in which one of the 
main causes of this problem. 

825
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:47,300
Again is where problems are then
given solutions by just the 

826
00:40:47,300 --> 00:40:50,700
business people and then they 
throw in a danger nears to Just 

827
00:40:50,700 --> 00:40:53,500
build, almost making the 
engineers like code monkeys, you

828
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:56,400
know, I just write whatever 
Solutions we've come up with. 

829
00:40:56,500 --> 00:40:59,400
Whereas opposite approach is 
this is a big problem that 

830
00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,900
company wants to solve open it 
up to the whole company to say, 

831
00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:05,800
how can we solve this together? 
What solutions could you 

832
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,900
possibly have and you start 
getting buy-in and ideas from 

833
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,700
different people including the 
engineers and the again, they 

834
00:41:11,700 --> 00:41:14,600
align more to the problem. 
So yeah, I think those are the 

835
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:17,400
main things is just this, that 
mismatch way is like us and 

836
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,800
them, but we should be together 
and if you can break that, Us 

837
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,200
and Them attitude. 
And I think that starts from, 

838
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:25,700
like I said, from the top, 
making sure that we're not 

839
00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:29,300
treating Engineers or another 
Resource Center because then 

840
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:32,400
they act that way in a way. 
It's like, okay we just do what 

841
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,000
you need. 
We like to take will build 

842
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,300
whatever you need but we're not 
concerned about our everything 

843
00:41:37,300 --> 00:41:39,600
else works. 
Yeah, then I think some 

844
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,500
companies do expose their 
Engineers to the users and their

845
00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:47,400
users problems, so then you feel
a bit of empathy in the problems

846
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:51,300
users actually facing and you 
want to actually Address those 

847
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:53,500
and then fix them and understand
the business more. 

848
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,800
There is many different sort of 
strategies, but it comes to an 

849
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,900
engineer feeling. 
They have a sense of ownership 

850
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,700
in more than just the check, but
where the company is going. 

851
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:05,100
Yeah. 
I completely agree with you the 

852
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:07,500
silo thing, right? 
Like the business versus the 

853
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:10,000
people on the tech. 
So that's why I think the whole 

854
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:13,000
movement about age are bringing 
business and the tech closer 

855
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,200
together, but one thing also 
that could help in my opinion is

856
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:20,400
that if you align both teams in 
terms of the same like before, 

857
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,900
Okay, or some performance 
measurement. 

858
00:42:22,900 --> 00:42:26,400
It should all tie back to how 
the company either make money or

859
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,400
benefits to users. 
It could be the number of 

860
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,000
Revenue number of prophets 
number of users adopting. 

861
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,000
The products. 
I think you've both teams are 

862
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,900
being measured on the same 
thing. 

863
00:42:34,900 --> 00:42:38,400
I guess in a way that Engineers 
would also love to learn how 

864
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,900
they can help to actually bring 
the numbers up. 

865
00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,700
So, the other problem that I 
normally see as well as 

866
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:47,600
Engineers is that we all love 
the shiny new tag, but we don't 

867
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,900
actually understand the 
constraints that the business 

868
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:51,900
actually is. 
Having, for example, these days 

869
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:53,900
for people adopt new technology.
We can simply say. 

870
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:56,400
Oh, I want to adopt that new 
technology while at the same 

871
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,200
time, probably the engineers 
don't understand. 

872
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,200
Okay, we have some constraints 
in the budget timeline or maybe 

873
00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,400
the legacies that we're working 
with, probably not so compatible

874
00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,400
with the new things. 
So in that case, as a technical 

875
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:10,900
leaders, do you think that these
people have a bigger role to 

876
00:43:10,900 --> 00:43:14,400
play to explain to the engineers
that we have these constraints? 

877
00:43:14,900 --> 00:43:16,300
Yeah. 
I completely agree as you were 

878
00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:17,900
talking. 
I just thought that's quite a 

879
00:43:17,908 --> 00:43:20,300
lot related to a leadership 
problem. 

880
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:22,900
The ship needs to solve that and
Technical leaders. 

881
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,400
And I think that's really about 
being transparent and open with 

882
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:30,300
the engineers and with everyone,
actually, in the company on, we 

883
00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:33,400
are we financially what we 
actually need right now. 

884
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,300
What does this bring to us? 
We don't want to stifle 

885
00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:40,000
Innovation by not, letting 
people try out new things that 

886
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:43,500
could actually break through. 
But every decision also needs to

887
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:46,700
be made in some context, if 
someone wants to spend time 

888
00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:50,400
changing the database, and it 
means for two years. 

889
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:53,800
We might not release any 
sensible new feature because the

890
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,700
whole database overall was big 
then we need to look at. 

891
00:43:56,700 --> 00:43:58,200
Why do you want to change the 
database? 

892
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,200
And what will it give us and how
does that align to business 

893
00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:03,700
outcomes in the end versus doing
something else? 

894
00:44:03,800 --> 00:44:07,400
It ends up always being about 
prioritization and outcomes. 

895
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,900
The business is trying to 
achieve, but that's way, I 

896
00:44:09,900 --> 00:44:13,800
guess, as Leaders as take 
leaders, even as company 

897
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:17,000
leaders, you're supposed to be 
stepping in and helping to 

898
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:20,400
facilitate and align and see if 
things go along with this. 

899
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,100
Did you have for the company and
helping people understand when 

900
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:27,200
you make decisions? 
Perhaps that don't go with what 

901
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,800
they were thinking at least 
helping them understand that 

902
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,400
they've been heard and their 
input and opinions have been 

903
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,600
heard. 
But this is why we've had to 

904
00:44:34,607 --> 00:44:37,400
make this decision for the 
company sake, right? 

905
00:44:37,500 --> 00:44:39,900
I think it's greatly put and I 
do like that. 

906
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,700
So moving on to the third one, 
which is something that I think 

907
00:44:42,700 --> 00:44:45,000
as an engineer. 
We don't like this thing soft 

908
00:44:45,000 --> 00:44:47,500
skills for if possible. 
I think most Engineers would 

909
00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:50,400
like to talk to machine to 
people. 

910
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:52,200
Right. 
So, yeah, what is your take on 

911
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:53,000
this soft? 
Skill. 

912
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,100
Why is it so important during 
the onboarding? 

913
00:44:55,500 --> 00:44:59,500
I think I mentioned earlier in 
that soft skills in modern-day. 

914
00:44:59,500 --> 00:45:02,600
It's very rare that you work 
alone in isolation and soft 

915
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,200
skills are all about how you 
communicate and you collaborate 

916
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:09,600
and you relate to other human 
beings and how you present your 

917
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,600
ideas and communicate them, in a
way that makes sense. 

918
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:15,600
And because people are not work 
in teams, and if you work in a 

919
00:45:15,607 --> 00:45:18,200
company, you talk to different 
people from different 

920
00:45:18,200 --> 00:45:20,200
departments. 
You may actually interact with 

921
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:22,300
you. 
As you definitely need the soft 

922
00:45:22,300 --> 00:45:24,000
skills. 
And as you say, it's probably 

923
00:45:24,000 --> 00:45:27,400
the most neglected one in the 
tech industry because I think 

924
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,500
there's multiple reasons. 
One probably comes to the 

925
00:45:30,500 --> 00:45:33,700
Grassroots of we're not getting 
tight enough about soft skills, 

926
00:45:33,700 --> 00:45:36,700
even at the school level. 
And at a university level, if 

927
00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:39,500
you are doing an engineering or 
technical degree, and then the 

928
00:45:39,500 --> 00:45:42,800
second one is, I think Engineers
are probably wired to 

929
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,400
communicate with the machine 
more because that's how we 

930
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,000
person instructions and 
everything. 

931
00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:49,700
But the good thing though is, I 
don't think it's something that 

932
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:52,000
cannot be built. 
It is definitely something that 

933
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,700
someone can improve in and get 
better at it with practice 

934
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:56,900
because at the end of the day, 
it's really about interaction 

935
00:45:56,900 --> 00:45:59,000
and communicating and 
facilitating. 

936
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:02,900
So they are a couple of tips I 
have on how to help people 

937
00:46:02,900 --> 00:46:05,000
improve. 
One of the first ones is 

938
00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:07,500
actually letting the new 
Engineers, when your own 

939
00:46:07,500 --> 00:46:10,100
boarding them. 
Once they've settled down, let 

940
00:46:10,100 --> 00:46:14,800
them lead some of the team 
reviews or demos of the work 

941
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,500
that they've just done whether 
that's to just the team or 

942
00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:20,300
across the whole company, if 
there's a company-wide demo it. 

943
00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,000
Is them. 
The ownership of we built this? 

944
00:46:23,100 --> 00:46:26,400
I'm going to present it and 
explain why we built it and how 

945
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:28,500
it works. 
And also, it gives them 

946
00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:31,300
visibility to the rest of the 
company because then maybe 

947
00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:33,300
people have questions later. 
They might actually approach 

948
00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:36,100
that person and talk to them 
about the solution they reviewed

949
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:39,500
and demoed. 
So it's a great free opportunity

950
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:42,000
to allow someone to build those 
skills by asking them to 

951
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,300
present, pair programming, which
I mentioned earlier, also 

952
00:46:45,300 --> 00:46:49,000
facilitates for this because if 
you join a company and you just 

953
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,500
throw it into a corner and you 
work, By yourself again, there's

954
00:46:51,500 --> 00:46:54,000
no communication and teamwork 
and everything collaboration. 

955
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,100
Well as pay programming by its 
nature. 

956
00:46:56,100 --> 00:46:58,200
You're going to have to be 
talking to someone, so it helps 

957
00:46:58,200 --> 00:47:00,700
build those relationships but 
also helps you to communicate 

958
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:02,800
and you're pairing. 
Body may ask you, what are you 

959
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,100
thinking? 
How you think of solving the 

960
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:06,300
problem and you have to 
communicate that back to them? 

961
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:09,900
So that's also a great team, 
building also help. 

962
00:47:09,900 --> 00:47:14,200
So just getting outside of our 
core day-to-day working grind 

963
00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:17,500
and starting to just learn more 
about each other as individuals,

964
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:20,400
whether it's like a team dinner 
or lunch or an activity. 

965
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:23,300
It's a given that social 
activity that as a team or as a 

966
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:26,700
company, you go on it helps you 
be out of that workspace. 

967
00:47:26,700 --> 00:47:29,400
But then you learn more about 
people and then you'll probably 

968
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:31,700
find it easier to communicate 
and collaborate with them 

969
00:47:31,700 --> 00:47:34,700
afterwards to close off on soft 
skills. 

970
00:47:34,700 --> 00:47:37,400
I would say you want your 
company to have an open 

971
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:42,100
transparent psychologically safe
culture, where people feel they 

972
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:45,700
can speak up or make mistakes. 
And they all may receive 

973
00:47:45,700 --> 00:47:48,700
feedback, but the feedback is in
a way to try to help them 

974
00:47:48,700 --> 00:47:52,300
improve and grow verses. 
Has to try discourage them or in

975
00:47:52,300 --> 00:47:54,600
a malicious way. 
Sort of good feedback that 

976
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:56,900
paying someone. 
So if you create an open 

977
00:47:56,900 --> 00:48:00,400
transparent, psychologically 
safe culture, you also opening 

978
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:03,800
up for people, softer skills, to
improve and grow at the end of 

979
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,400
the day. 
We are supposed to be able to 

980
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:09,000
communicate. 
And so the solutions with both, 

981
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:11,700
we're supposed to be able to 
communicate and explain 

982
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,400
technical Concepts to 
non-technical people as 

983
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,400
Engineers. 
Those are key skills that I 

984
00:48:16,408 --> 00:48:19,600
believe every engineer should 
have and I think amongst all the

985
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:23,900
things so Skills is probably the
one I would say is the highest 

986
00:48:23,900 --> 00:48:26,900
rate when your onboarding people
and if you can get the engineers

987
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:30,300
to have great soft skills, then 
the other things you can almost 

988
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,400
get together much more easily, 
but the soft skills are in, is 

989
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:35,400
the important one. 
And also, if someone doesn't 

990
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,900
have them, the wine that you 
have to work a bit harder to 

991
00:48:37,900 --> 00:48:41,600
help them build and grow. 
Yeah, if I can add, I mean based

992
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,100
on my own experience as well, 
right? 

993
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:45,700
There are few things that can 
help in this soft skill as well,

994
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:48,500
which is one frequent one-on-one
with the technical lead of the 

995
00:48:48,500 --> 00:48:52,300
manager or someone senior. 
To the person frequent check in 

996
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:54,800
frequent feedback or maybe ask 
questions because there will be 

997
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,800
a lot of things that these new 
hire don't know about the 

998
00:48:57,800 --> 00:49:00,200
context of the company because 
they are new, they are not 

999
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,500
comfortable enough with 
everything that they see. 

1000
00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:05,000
Or if either the code base. 
It is a technical stack. 

1001
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,900
Either the automation, they can 
use this channel, the 

1002
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:11,100
one-on-ones to actually learn 
from the managers or the seniors

1003
00:49:11,100 --> 00:49:13,300
to help guide them to the 
correct way. 

1004
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:16,400
And the other thing I saw also 
working is that the having a 

1005
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,800
buddy system during probably the
onboarding period or the 

1006
00:49:19,800 --> 00:49:22,900
probation period, Some people 
call it having the body that is 

1007
00:49:22,900 --> 00:49:26,400
like a peer understand each 
other maybe pair from time to 

1008
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,300
time or even just spend some 
time. 

1009
00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:31,900
Go out for lunch or dinner and 
just chitchat about each other. 

1010
00:49:32,100 --> 00:49:35,100
I think that also tends to help 
so that they are more immersed 

1011
00:49:35,100 --> 00:49:37,700
in the culture of the company 
and they can ask some secretive 

1012
00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:40,500
questions that maybe they don't 
dare to ask the managers, but he

1013
00:49:40,500 --> 00:49:42,900
can ask their peers who have 
been around longer than them. 

1014
00:49:43,100 --> 00:49:45,500
So I think these are some of the
things that I also learned that 

1015
00:49:45,500 --> 00:49:48,100
might work as well to help in 
the soft skills area. 

1016
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:52,100
I completely agree with you. 
Both those things at both. 

1017
00:49:52,100 --> 00:49:54,500
The last startups. 
I've been working at, I also in 

1018
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:57,900
place and I definitely key to 
supporting someone who is new 

1019
00:49:58,100 --> 00:50:00,000
and just makes that transition 
easier. 

1020
00:50:00,000 --> 00:50:02,600
When you join a new company. 
I was intrigued in the 

1021
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,900
beginning. 
When you say a lot of Engineers 

1022
00:50:04,900 --> 00:50:08,100
probably do not get exposure 
enough about these soft skills 

1023
00:50:08,100 --> 00:50:10,500
either at school or in the 
University of and they learn 

1024
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:13,800
about this technology degree. 
What are some of the resources 

1025
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,100
that have helped you in your 
career? 

1026
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:18,900
In terms of boosting your soft 
skills is it may be training or 

1027
00:50:18,900 --> 00:50:22,800
books or anything that Find may 
be interesting for an engineer, 

1028
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,500
not to be solely focused on just
talking to the machines, 

1029
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:27,400
instruct them to do whatever 
they want. 

1030
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:30,200
But also talking to people and 
collaborate and understand each 

1031
00:50:30,207 --> 00:50:34,100
other here are so apart from the
one I already mentioned, which 

1032
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:36,900
is taking the opportunity to 
actually step up and lead a 

1033
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:39,800
demo, or team review. 
I think putting yourself out 

1034
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:44,200
there in the communities to 
speak at meetups and to actually

1035
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,400
just attend and ask questions 
and interact with other people 

1036
00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,000
outside of being on a machine 
and the computer. 

1037
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,300
After I definitely helpful, I 
haven't done a public. 

1038
00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,500
Speaking course myself, but I 
know some people do so, they'll 

1039
00:50:56,500 --> 00:50:59,600
do a public speaking course or a
Toastmasters sort of learning 

1040
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:02,200
thing where you learn how to 
communicate and speak and 

1041
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,400
increase your confidence in a 
public space. 

1042
00:51:04,700 --> 00:51:07,800
So that's also useful. 
I know there's a book called 

1043
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:10,600
soft skills. 
I haven't read it myself, but 

1044
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:13,300
that's always highly recommended
that people can read up and 

1045
00:51:13,300 --> 00:51:15,400
understand. 
What does it actually mean to 

1046
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:17,800
have these soft skills. 
And then I think, if you 

1047
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:21,400
identify someone who's good at 
it and you are Link to get 

1048
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:23,800
better at your soft skills. 
Like, how is this person were 

1049
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,200
communicated? 
How are they speaking? 

1050
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:29,600
So, well, what do they do to 
prepare for their presentations 

1051
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:31,700
and everything? 
If they at your company, you can

1052
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:34,400
reach out to them and ask them 
to perhaps Mentor, you in this 

1053
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:35,900
journey. 
Tell them I want to get better 

1054
00:51:35,900 --> 00:51:39,000
at my communication and 
collaboration of people. 

1055
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:41,500
Why do I need to do? 
So that's also useful. 

1056
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:45,800
But yeah, I think in schools or 
universities, there's more of a 

1057
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:49,900
space for teaching people those 
public speaking skills, because 

1058
00:51:49,900 --> 00:51:52,700
then you are, Still at school so
it can be a course with you 

1059
00:51:52,700 --> 00:51:54,800
actually need to learn and pass 
the course. 

1060
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:58,700
So that forces people to sort of
learn and then maybe more group 

1061
00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:01,700
projects at school where people 
work together and collaborate a 

1062
00:52:01,707 --> 00:52:03,800
bit more. 
I think a lot of school is 

1063
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,000
individualized work. 
Then you get out of school. 

1064
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,000
You realize most work is 
collaborative work. 

1065
00:52:09,100 --> 00:52:13,100
So if we did more collaborative 
work at school, who perhaps 

1066
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:15,600
would be more prepared for 
collaborative work in the real 

1067
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:17,400
world when it came out. 
Yeah. 

1068
00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,100
I do a completely agree with 
that same thing here in Asia 

1069
00:52:20,100 --> 00:52:23,100
where Probably some schools 
emphasize more on the individual

1070
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:26,200
results, individual activities. 
I think having more group 

1071
00:52:26,200 --> 00:52:29,400
projects might be able to help 
boost this soft skills for all 

1072
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:31,700
of us in the industry later on 
in the career. 

1073
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:33,500
So, thank you for sharing the 
onboarding. 

1074
00:52:33,500 --> 00:52:35,900
I think it's pretty useful. 
I hope a lot of our listeners 

1075
00:52:35,900 --> 00:52:38,100
here would learn a lot from it 
Tanaka. 

1076
00:52:38,100 --> 00:52:41,700
I also saw some things that you 
do, which is called no days off.

1077
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,200
Is it like a lifestyle movement?
Can you share a little bit the 

1078
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:47,000
name itself? 
Sounds intriguing? 

1079
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,200
No days off. 
Is it like you're working all 

1080
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:52,700
the time? 
I get a lot of people will say, 

1081
00:52:52,900 --> 00:52:56,800
do you not want to take a break?
Yeah, no days off. 

1082
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:58,800
It's a Lifestyle brand or 
movement. 

1083
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:00,900
You can call it that. 
Which I started about eight 

1084
00:53:00,900 --> 00:53:03,300
years ago. 
The main purpose of it is to 

1085
00:53:03,300 --> 00:53:06,600
inspire people to chase their 
goals and dreams or they 

1086
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,100
Ambitions and help encourage 
them to pursue them and Achieve 

1087
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:12,000
them. 
And the idea of no days off is 

1088
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,300
to try, push out a message of 
consistency. 

1089
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,300
I believe that if you want to 
get really good at something, 

1090
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:22,200
you want to get good at becoming
And practicing it or doing that 

1091
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,500
thing, if you can't even do it 
every day, that's even better. 

1092
00:53:25,700 --> 00:53:31,300
So that's where that comes from.
It's really side ASL or hobby 

1093
00:53:31,300 --> 00:53:34,700
project at the moment because 
obviously my main focus is the 

1094
00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:38,800
tech industry and my tech job, 
but I do make some clothing 

1095
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,100
merchandise. 
That's no days off branded. 

1096
00:53:41,100 --> 00:53:44,900
And again, the thinking there is
people usually wear clothes that

1097
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:47,900
send out a message that they are
aligned with or clothes that are

1098
00:53:47,900 --> 00:53:49,800
reminded of something they want 
to live by. 

1099
00:53:50,300 --> 00:53:53,100
And I thought no days off would 
be a great way for people to 

1100
00:53:53,100 --> 00:53:56,600
share the message that they are 
living for that brand with those

1101
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:59,600
goals of being consistent and 
getting better at what they do 

1102
00:53:59,600 --> 00:54:03,400
and improving everyday to close 
it off on no days off is, I 

1103
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,900
believe everyone in the world as
a place. 

1104
00:54:05,900 --> 00:54:07,600
They are trying to get to a 
place. 

1105
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,400
They Define as success. 
Some true notes that they are 

1106
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,800
looking to try, get to, and each
and every day, we wake up and we

1107
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:16,100
do different things. 
To try to move us towards that 

1108
00:54:16,100 --> 00:54:19,500
direction. 
And no days off is really had to

1109
00:54:19,500 --> 00:54:22,100
help encourage. 
You in that Journey, regardless 

1110
00:54:22,100 --> 00:54:24,500
of whatever you're trying to be,
whether you want to be the best 

1111
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:28,100
CEO in the world, based software
engineer, best football player, 

1112
00:54:28,300 --> 00:54:30,900
or the best father out there for
your children. 

1113
00:54:31,100 --> 00:54:34,000
Nowadays of his day job inspire,
you, and get you there. 

1114
00:54:34,100 --> 00:54:37,500
So that's what nowadays office. 
I also enjoy it because that's 

1115
00:54:37,500 --> 00:54:41,900
how I try to live my life and it
exists because I'm living that 

1116
00:54:41,900 --> 00:54:44,300
movement basically, truly 
inspiring. 

1117
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:46,600
I think I completely agree, 
like, for all of us here. 

1118
00:54:46,600 --> 00:54:50,600
We should have something that we
aspire to go to or to Old. 

1119
00:54:50,600 --> 00:54:53,400
So it could be the North Star 
like you mentioned or the 

1120
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:56,500
definition of success, which is 
probably very different from one

1121
00:54:56,500 --> 00:55:00,000
person to the other. 
There's no 100% true goal for 

1122
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,200
everyone to aim for I guess. 
I think the movement here is 

1123
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,800
cell is just to come up with 
some of your dream, your vision 

1124
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:09,600
and be consistent enough to try 
and Chase that goal and maybe 

1125
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,300
make sure that it gets realized 
rather than one day. 

1126
00:55:12,300 --> 00:55:14,300
You'll regret it. 
Okay, you haven't done anything 

1127
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:16,400
towards whatever that you want 
to achieve. 

1128
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:19,300
So from those eight years of, 
starting this movement, are 

1129
00:55:19,300 --> 00:55:21,300
there any inspiration? 
Chanel store, if you have a 

1130
00:55:21,300 --> 00:55:24,000
community of people believing in
this no days off. 

1131
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:29,100
Yes, so the interesting thing 
is, it's actually grew a lot 

1132
00:55:29,100 --> 00:55:31,800
amongst my friends. 
My friends started buying the 

1133
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,600
merchandise. 
And after I saw the merchandise 

1134
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,100
to someone, I would get a photo 
with whereby. 

1135
00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:39,900
I've sold to holding the 
merchandise to say, welcome to 

1136
00:55:39,900 --> 00:55:42,900
the new days of movement. 
And if I know the person or 

1137
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:45,700
write a little bit about them to
say this person is currently 

1138
00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:49,000
pursuing this degree and they 
want to become this at some 

1139
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:52,700
point or Over there, doing that 
can Inspire other people also, 

1140
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:55,200
and I'll check them and put them
on social media. 

1141
00:55:55,300 --> 00:55:57,800
What will then happen? 
The interesting effect would be 

1142
00:55:57,900 --> 00:56:01,100
all their friends would see that
tag and then a number of them 

1143
00:56:01,100 --> 00:56:02,900
would say, I also want to be 
part of that movement. 

1144
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:05,900
I also want that t-shirt or that
sweater and then they would come

1145
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:08,400
and buy. 
So that's all a lot of sales 

1146
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,700
have actually happened. 
A lot of my friends have 

1147
00:56:10,700 --> 00:56:12,100
purchased no days or 
merchandise. 

1148
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:14,200
They in one degree away from 
them. 

1149
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:16,400
They are friends. 
Have also, then come along and 

1150
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,200
purchased it and then there are 
people where it's some people 

1151
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:21,400
weren't as fashion. 
Some We'll use it as an. 

1152
00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:23,600
Inspirational piece of 
merchandise. 

1153
00:56:23,600 --> 00:56:27,200
I've had stories with a friend. 
Once told me he was pursuing a 

1154
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:30,600
master's degree and he told me 
from the time, he bought the 

1155
00:56:30,600 --> 00:56:32,900
T-shirt. 
He said you would only wear it 

1156
00:56:32,900 --> 00:56:35,500
on that day. 
He secures that master's degree 

1157
00:56:35,500 --> 00:56:39,000
and that was his inspiration to 
keep going until you secure that

1158
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:41,000
degree and we eventually got the
degree. 

1159
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:43,900
It was just interesting, just to
hear that story and they've been

1160
00:56:43,900 --> 00:56:46,800
many other stories of people 
who've been trying to chase 

1161
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:49,200
their goals and they just keep 
telling you that you don't 

1162
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,500
realize how much I was motivated
by just being part of the 

1163
00:56:52,500 --> 00:56:55,200
movement and knowing that I need
to take no days off and keep 

1164
00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:57,100
going, and I hope it keeps 
going. 

1165
00:56:57,100 --> 00:56:59,900
Obviously, it's a side I saw at 
the moment, but the bigger 

1166
00:56:59,900 --> 00:57:02,800
impact it can make the better 
and more fulfilling. 

1167
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:04,600
It would be for me to. 
Wow. 

1168
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:07,200
What a great inspiration. 
So for those of you listeners, 

1169
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,100
who are interested in these snow
days of movement, make sure to 

1170
00:57:10,100 --> 00:57:12,200
check out a link, which I'll 
provide in the show notes as 

1171
00:57:12,200 --> 00:57:14,200
well. 
So Tanaka, thank you so much for

1172
00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:16,200
the conversation. 
I think we are going towards the

1173
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,900
end of the episode here. 
But before I let you go, 

1174
00:57:19,100 --> 00:57:21,900
normally I would ask. 
Question about three technical 

1175
00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:24,200
leadership wisdom. 
Do you have those wisdom that 

1176
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:26,500
you can share with us here here?
Sure. 

1177
00:57:26,500 --> 00:57:29,400
I'm happy to share, three 
lessons or three pieces of 

1178
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,300
advice before. 
Wrapping up. 

1179
00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:34,100
The first one in my mind would 
be that technical leaders should

1180
00:57:34,100 --> 00:57:36,300
keep learning. 
It's a never ending Journey. 

1181
00:57:36,500 --> 00:57:38,800
You will never reach this point 
where, you know, everything is 

1182
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,100
your like, I've reached a peak 
of technical leadership. 

1183
00:57:41,300 --> 00:57:44,600
It's like the same as when you 
go to the gym exercise and you 

1184
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,700
build your muscles, if you stop,
then you lose your Fitness. 

1185
00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:51,300
So even if it's things that you 
know, No, and you great about in

1186
00:57:51,308 --> 00:57:54,500
the past and you've understood, 
it's always good to refresh. 

1187
00:57:54,500 --> 00:57:58,000
So, I would encourage people to 
consume as much content about 

1188
00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,300
leadership as they can, to, 
always be seeking out. 

1189
00:58:00,300 --> 00:58:02,500
Mentors, seeking out. 
Different experiences. 

1190
00:58:02,600 --> 00:58:05,600
Understanding other companies 
are doing things and just always

1191
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:08,500
have this hunger to learn. 
I read somewhere that there is a

1192
00:58:08,500 --> 00:58:12,300
big correlation between people 
will learn a lot about technical

1193
00:58:12,300 --> 00:58:15,300
leadership, and people were 
good, technical leaders, like, 

1194
00:58:15,300 --> 00:58:17,800
people were constantly reading 
and consuming content and people

1195
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:20,100
are good, technical leaders. 
There is correlation there. 

1196
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:23,200
So, that's one of the key pieces
of advice. 

1197
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,700
I would leave. 
And then the second one is it's 

1198
00:58:25,700 --> 00:58:28,900
all about people. 
So it's very important to build 

1199
00:58:28,900 --> 00:58:32,400
good relationships, especially 
with the people that report into

1200
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:34,700
you, or the people that you 
manage and Lead. 

1201
00:58:34,700 --> 00:58:38,500
So building, good open 
relationships that have trust in

1202
00:58:38,500 --> 00:58:42,200
them who go a long way because 
it will allow those people to be

1203
00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:46,300
very open with you with feedback
and also to be very open with 

1204
00:58:46,300 --> 00:58:48,700
you when they're not happy about
something, or when there's 

1205
00:58:48,700 --> 00:58:52,500
conflict and also, So for them 
to trust you when sometimes, you

1206
00:58:52,500 --> 00:58:56,200
will make decisions that may not
exactly aligned with what they 

1207
00:58:56,200 --> 00:58:57,700
think things should be 
happening. 

1208
00:58:57,900 --> 00:59:00,400
It's less personal problem 
thing. 

1209
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,100
But more I trust the leader to 
make that decision. 

1210
00:59:03,300 --> 00:59:05,700
A lot of problems. 
Also arise from people issues. 

1211
00:59:06,100 --> 00:59:09,000
So it's worth remembering that 
everything is about people. 

1212
00:59:09,000 --> 00:59:11,900
And it's key to build these good
relationships with everyone. 

1213
00:59:11,900 --> 00:59:14,400
You work with someone might ask,
how do you build good 

1214
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,500
relationships as many practices 
and everything that you can do 

1215
00:59:17,500 --> 00:59:21,700
to do that, but I think at the 
fun, Enter level is just be as 

1216
00:59:21,700 --> 00:59:24,200
human as possible. 
How would you want to be 

1217
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,500
treated? 
If you were on the other side 

1218
00:59:26,600 --> 00:59:28,200
and treat everyone else that 
way? 

1219
00:59:28,400 --> 00:59:31,100
And then the last one, which 
does happen that some leaders 

1220
00:59:31,100 --> 00:59:35,100
forget at times is as a leader, 
you are measured on how well, 

1221
00:59:35,100 --> 00:59:39,000
your team is doing not on how 
well you are doing by yourself 

1222
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:41,400
as an individual. 
So what's important is to 

1223
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,100
actually create an environment 
which your team thrives in and 

1224
00:59:45,100 --> 00:59:47,800
as well from the moment you have
made a leader. 

1225
00:59:48,100 --> 00:59:51,500
You've been measured on how 
well, Well, the team or the 

1226
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:53,100
people here, leading? 
I doing. 

1227
00:59:53,300 --> 00:59:55,100
So everything becomes about 
them. 

1228
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:57,400
You want them to grow your own 
them, to be happy. 

1229
00:59:57,600 --> 01:00:00,500
You want their careers to be 
always on the rise. 

1230
01:00:00,700 --> 01:00:02,800
Your job is to create that 
environment. 

1231
01:00:02,900 --> 01:00:06,500
Everything else comes secondary.
You can be doing very well as an

1232
01:00:06,500 --> 01:00:10,300
individual, but if your team is 
not doing well and people are 

1233
01:00:10,300 --> 01:00:13,100
not happy and everything, then 
you are failing at your job. 

1234
01:00:13,300 --> 01:00:16,900
So that's my last piece of 
advice for take leaders update. 

1235
01:00:17,300 --> 01:00:19,400
Definitely. 
The last one was really cool. 

1236
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:22,300
I totally With that. 
Some leaders do tend to be 

1237
01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:24,900
individualistic, what? 
I think we should aspire to be a

1238
01:00:24,900 --> 01:00:27,500
servant leaders people who as a 
leader who serve your 

1239
01:00:27,500 --> 01:00:30,800
subordinates of people below you
so that they grow and also being

1240
01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,200
fulfilled in their career 
together with you. 

1241
01:00:33,400 --> 01:00:36,800
So thank you Tanaka for people 
who wants to follow you where 

1242
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,000
they can reach you online. 
Maybe there are. 

1243
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,500
So I'm on LinkedIn under my 
name. 

1244
01:00:41,500 --> 01:00:44,600
Tanaka motagua, if people just 
search for me, they can connect 

1245
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:47,200
with me there. 
I'm happy to chat to people and 

1246
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,700
always happy to connect. 
I'm also on Twitter as General 

1247
01:00:50,700 --> 01:00:53,000
mu taqwa. 
So General, then my surname 

1248
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,400
which Aqua also happy to connect
on Twitter. 

1249
01:00:55,600 --> 01:00:58,900
And then also like I mentioned 
earlier who got the tech 

1250
01:00:58,900 --> 01:01:02,200
leadership meet up. 
So on meetup.com, if you find 

1251
01:01:02,200 --> 01:01:05,800
take leadership Meetup Cape Town
and you join that community 

1252
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,200
group also happy to connect a 
so, yeah. 

1253
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:10,400
Those are my social media 
channels. 

1254
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,500
Alright, so, thanks again. 
It's been a pleasure, talking to

1255
01:01:13,500 --> 01:01:14,600
you. 
We should good luck with 

1256
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,100
namespaces and all the things 
you do with the community and 

1257
01:01:17,100 --> 01:01:19,500
also your no days off movement. 
Thank you. 

1258
01:01:19,500 --> 01:01:21,800
That's really been working. 
To chat and share some 

1259
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,400
leadership tips and everything. 
We've been insightful. 

1260
01:01:24,700 --> 01:01:29,500
Thanks for having me. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1261
01:01:29,500 --> 01:01:32,200
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1262
01:01:32,300 --> 01:01:35,300
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1263
01:01:35,300 --> 01:01:38,600
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1264
01:01:38,600 --> 01:01:40,900
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1265
01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:44,200
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1266
01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,600
review and feedback. 
It really, really helps me a lot

1267
01:01:47,600 --> 01:01:50,100
in order to grow these podcasts 
better. 

1268
01:01:50,600 --> 01:01:53,900
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1269
01:01:53,900 --> 01:01:57,200
the episode page, at Tech Legion
of the death website. 

1270
01:01:57,700 --> 01:02:00,700
Doing the full transcript, 
interesting quotes, and links to

1271
01:02:00,700 --> 01:02:03,600
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1272
01:02:04,100 --> 01:02:07,000
And lastly make sure to 
subscribe to the shows mailing 

1273
01:02:07,000 --> 01:02:10,700
list on technology know the deaf
to get notified for any future 

1274
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:13,000
episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1275
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:15,400
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1276
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:16,200
Goodbye.