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One of the questions in the back
of my mind, throughout my career

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was why some companies are so 
much more successful at 

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producing, high value, high 
impact, products than others, 

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and the principles are pretty 
well, understood. 

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You need to be customer Centric.
You need to be evidence driven. 

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While evidence guided, you need 
to be able to adapt your plan or

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just stick to roadmap, but some 
companies are better at 

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implementing them than others. 
Google was an example and I 

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found it. 
The difference comes to four 

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areas of change or four areas 
that we need to tackle. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya, we 

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Robin. 
And you're listening to the 

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technology, you know, podcast 
the show where I'll be bringing 

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00:00:47,700 --> 00:00:50,800
you the greatest technical 
leaders practitioners and 

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00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:54,600
thought leaders in the industry 
to discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hello again, my friends and my 
listeners, welcome to the 

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package, you know, podcast the 
podcast where you can learn 

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about technical leadership and 
Excellence from my conversations

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with great thought, leaders in 
the tech industry. 

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If this is your first time 
listening to Tecla Journal, 

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subscribe and follow the show on
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And for those of you longtime 
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and support my work, subscribe 
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Not death / Patron or by Me a 
coffee at technology. 

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Not deaf /. 
Dip my guest for today's episode

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is itamar, Gillard, itamar is a 
coach and author with deep 

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experience in product 
management, strategy and growth 

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and was previously, the head of 
Gmail's growth team in this 

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episode, we discussed all things
about product management, and 

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how to build high value products
itamar. 

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First shared his journey at 
Google, growing Gmail to 1, 

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billion, monthly active users, 
and some of his lessons Earn on 

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managing large scale, product 
changes getting users feedback 

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and dogfooding itamar than 
explain in depth. 

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His just framework as an 
alternative to the product 

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roadmap, a collection of 
methods, and best practices for 

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producing high value. 
And impactful products he shared

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some challenges working with 
product roadmap and how teams 

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can create better alignment 
instead. 

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He also shared how we can do 
product privatization better by 

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using the icy technique and his 
confidence m. 

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Towards the end itamar, share 
the different ways of how 

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companies can conduct product 
experimentation, and how to use 

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the Jesus board to improve the 
way we execute product 

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development. 
I really enjoyed my conversation

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with itamar hearing some of his 
lessons. 

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Learned growing Gmail and 
techniques to improve product 

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management and development. 
If you also find this episode 

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useful, I would appreciate it. 
If you can help share it with 

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00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,200
your colleagues and your 
community, so that more people 

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00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,600
can learn from this episode. 
Also leave a Our rating and 

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00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:13,600
review on a podcast and Spotify.
Let's go to the conversation 

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with itamar after a few words 
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you See if any of those wrecks. 

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Hello everyone. 
Welcome back to another new 

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episode of the attack. 
Did you know podcast? 

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Today we have a topic about 
product management. 

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I'm really happy to see itamar. 
Gillett today, itamar is a very 

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experienced product manager. 
He has worked in multiple big 

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companies like Microsoft Google.
And in fact, it has helped grow 

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Gmail product into 1 billion 
monthly active users. 

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I think this is a lot of 
expertise that we are going to 

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learn here from itamar. 
So thank you for this 

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opportunity and looking forward 
to our conversation. 

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Thank you for inviting me. 
And yeah, I'm looking forward to

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it as well. 
So it a, I always like in the 

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beginning to us about your 
career Journey, maybe if you can

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mention any highlights or 
turning points that you think 

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will be good for us to learn 
from, you know, for sure. 

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I started out as an engineer and
I worked in engineering for a 

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while. 
As a software developer, I 

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really liked it. 
I started rising up the chain of

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command and I found myself an 
engineering manager of sort and 

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I felt that was not the right 
career path for me. 

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So I kind of switched to the 
dark side a bit and became a 

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product manager that was in the 
year 2001 so you can see how old

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I am actually and that was 
probably a better career choice 

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for me. 
I spent about 15 years in 

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product management mostly in 
Israel where I'm from, but I 

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worked also for some 
International companies and then

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I spend a few years in 
Switzerland as a product manager

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working for Google during these 
15. 

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The years, I had a chance to 
work for startups for Scallops 

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for Microsoft and then for 
Google initially for you too. 

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But then I spent a few years in 
Gmail as you mentioned and that 

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was an overwhelming experience. 
We had, as you said, billion 

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active users, give or take and a
lot of impact, but at the end of

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this period, I felt it was time 
for yet another change. 

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So, I stopped being an active 
product manager, and I became a 

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coach for product management 
teams for leaders, and I started

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writing a lot about product 
management, some Ideas or some 

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of aggregation of things that 
tell you right from other 

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people, might smarter than me. 
And that's where I am today. 

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I'm coaching I'm presenting. 
I'm writing and I'm having a 

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chance to speak to you. 
Thanks for sharing your story. 

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So, if all of you do not know 
yet, Adama also, wrote 

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newsletters and he also 
published several self-published

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books. 
Those are really short Snappy, 

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but very concise and dense. 
So make sure to check out his 

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website. 
But later on, I'll put it in the

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show notes as well. 
So it down and let's start from 

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your Gmail. 
They'll experience because I 

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think this might be a good 
opportunity for many of us to 

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learn from. 
So, maybe if you can identify 

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when you started joining Gmail, 
how big was the product back 

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then and what was the evolution,
like growing from that stage 

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until 1 billion monthly active 
users? 

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So, I joined remember 2011, it 
was pretty massive by then it 

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had. 
I'm using official number 420 

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million users already so I 
cannot really take any of the 

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credit for the big success of 
Gmail. 

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It was wonderful product that 
Con transformed email, people 

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really love the amount of value.
It gave. 

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I think it stayed a very honest 
product and really try to help 

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the users and help the 
customers. 

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And while it showed ads, we had 
a clear separation of the ad 

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team being there to monetize the
product and the rest of us were 

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there to create value for the 
customers. 

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And this balance of give and 
take is very important in every 

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product. 
But we weren't there just to 

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sell more ads, I can tell you 
and that's one of the The things

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I really liked about Gmail. 
The customer focus. 

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The fact that we were constantly
striving to add more value and 

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to make the product still 
relevant. 

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And that's one of the key 
takeaways that I always teach 

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start with the customer, put 
them at the focus of everything.

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Nice, we always need to start 
from the customer solving the 

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real problem, right? 
Not like imaginary problems, but

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maybe specifically, for some 
product management techniques. 

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Is there anything that you do 
differently at that slot scale 

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number of users? 
Because I think any small change

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that you do sometimes I also 
experienced that whenever Gmail 

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change the UI ux, some people 
will like it, some people will 

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really hate it. 
So how do you do this balance 

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for product management, in order
to cater for building number of 

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users? 
Yeah, when you work on this 

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curl, there's a number of 
complications that are not 

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typical for any other kind of 
p.m. role that I experienced. 

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At least the one thing is that 
you mention any minor change, 

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you change the color of the send
button, someone will hate It it 

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someone will love it. 
It might affect the productivity

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of some people. 
So you need to be more cautious 

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and especially with email 
because it's kind of a 

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mission-critical product for so 
many people. 

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You need to have a gentle. 
And so we were bit kind of risk,

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aversive would say, in a sense 
that we tried to while creating 

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value not to ruffle the product 
too much. 

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The was just, as I joined a 
major launch of redesign of 

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Gmail, that was very 
controversial. 

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Some people really loved it. 
It modernized Gmail, Before it 

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was kind of ugly but very 
functional and people liked it. 

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And then we launched this 
redesign that went across. 

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All of Google, by the way, the 
same time there was this new 

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design language launched and a 
lot of people really hated it 

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because it makes the information
less dense. 

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They so fewer lines or fewer 
threads inside of the email. 

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So that taught me a lot about 
how sensitive we should be about

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this changes years later. 
I had an opportunity to launch a

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major Innovation if you like or 
major. 

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When we introduced the tabs. 
So we realize that a lot of 

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users are not really organizing 
their inbox in any sort of way, 

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everything that comes in stays 
in the Inbox and if it goes to 

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the other page, it's as good as 
all cards for them. 

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It's really hard for them to 
sift, through the piles of 

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email, the advanced uses, the 
power users, head techniques, 

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the knew how to use labels and 
filters and all the other tools 

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of Gmail. 
But the vast majority of uses 

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didn't. 
So we had to develop a system 

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that enables them to A bit more 
organized without having to do a

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lot of work. 
And that led to after research 

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to this development of the 
social tab, the promotions Tab. 

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And there are few other optional
tabs you can activate. 

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This was a major change in the 
user experience and in order to 

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reduce the risk because it was 
very risky, we took a long time 

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to develop this thing. 
It took about 12 to 14 months, 

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we've done numerous user 
studies. 

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Some of them including hundreds 
of customers or users, we've 

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00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,900
done a lot of Of data analysis. 
We've done a lot of usability 

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test, tens of thousands of 
googlers volunteers to actually 

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use this on their personal 
email. 

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I really was appreciative of 
that and when you do such 

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things, you are reducing the 
risk. 

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So when you launch eventually, 
you're not surprised. 

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You're hardly ever surprised 
because you actually already 

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learned all the bad sides of 
that might happen. 

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All the negative aspects and you
fix them along the way. 

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00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:37,000
And that's really informed my 
thinking as well as about how 

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can the right way to develop 
product. 

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You don't need to be as 
risk-averse as Jim and obviously

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00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:46,600
a new product, you should maybe 
take more risk but still these 

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00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,100
techniques. 
I think of are useful. 

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00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:51,400
So there are two things that I 
have interest as well. 

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00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,500
So when you roll out this 
change, for example, introducing

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00:10:54,500 --> 00:10:57,200
this new tab, it's like the new 
workflow for many people and 

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00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,700
sometimes it could be 
destructive. 

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00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,200
How do you actually engage 
critical feedback from the users

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00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:05,000
knowing that your product is 
being used in multiple 

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00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:08,800
countries, multiple geographies 
multiple cultures language might

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00:11:08,800 --> 00:11:11,100
be different as well. 
So how do you do this research? 

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00:11:11,100 --> 00:11:13,700
And how do you actually get the 
feedback that actually allow you

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00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:15,500
to take the risk and make the 
change? 

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00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,100
So, first of feedback for me, 
the word feedback is usually 

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after you launch and there's 
some feedback tool to let you 

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00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:24,900
know. 
I assume that's not what you 

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00:11:24,900 --> 00:11:28,200
meant, but don't get to this 
point and then just learn for 

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00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,000
the first time whether or not 
they liked it, that's a very 

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00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:34,900
common mistake and a very costly
one because there's statistics 

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00:11:34,900 --> 00:11:37,400
to show that most leaders 
actually are not good. 

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00:11:37,500 --> 00:11:42,300
If you look at A/B experiments, 
Etc, that Netflix Microsoft go 

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00:11:42,300 --> 00:11:44,700
will run. 
The best case scenario is one in

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00:11:44,700 --> 00:11:47,800
three ideas, actually create any
sort of measurable Improvement. 

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00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:51,000
So don't wait to the point that 
they need to give you feedback 

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00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,900
after you launched it to tell 
you that was actually a terrible

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00:11:53,900 --> 00:11:56,000
idea. 
Usually the feedback you get is 

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00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,900
that they will just not use it 
because it's just doesn't do 

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00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:03,600
anything good in their lives. 
Much better is to start as early

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00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,200
as possible with validating this
idea and sometimes you can 

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00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,900
validate it just on paper. 
You just just do a little back 

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of the envelope calculation. 
Say how many people actually 

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have this problem? 
Let's put a guess, how many of 

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those will actually see that 
change that we created? 

233
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Because not all of them will, 
how many will convert and start 

234
00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:23,100
using it? 
And how many of those will 

235
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actually see the benefit to 
expect and retain keep using it?

236
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And sometimes a lot of ideas 
just on paper will realize are 

237
00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,600
not as strong as you think 
either because they don't solve 

238
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a big enough problem or because 
the likelihood that they will 

239
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solve the problem to these 
people is small. 

240
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So just this This, which is very
cheap to do. 

241
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Will help you a lot. 
Then you have a lot of 

242
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techniques to fake the product, 
before you build it, you do a 

243
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Wizard of Oz test. 
We've done this for the tabbed 

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inbox, the very first test. 
We've done, is we invited people

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to his ability test, they saw 
Gmail already with the tabs and 

246
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inside the tabs by Magic, they 
saw their messages which were 

247
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actually came from their inbox. 
How did this magic happen first 

248
00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:08,800
off? 
They signed an agreement that we

249
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Are allowed to process their 
inbox a little bit. 

250
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Not actually go into the message
is just the subject and Center. 

251
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While the interviewer was 
interviewing them, we kind of 

252
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scraped the top 15 messages from
their inbox, with Chrome 

253
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extension. 
And then at the back, we move 

254
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the manually. 
We guessed. 

255
00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:30,500
This looks like an update. 
Let's put it here. 

256
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This looks like a promo of this 
looks like social. 

257
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So after a few minutes we give 
the researcher, a green light 

258
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and said Okay show them the new 
inbox. 

259
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But of course it was a facade, 
this wasn't really G. 

260
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:45,300
But this was just a facade that 
showed him how it might be and 

261
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we got incredible feedback just 
from this simple experiment and 

262
00:13:49,100 --> 00:13:52,500
we saw a determine this value in
each for most of these 

263
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customers. 
The first ones were 1210 out of 

264
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them. 
Absolutely loved it. 

265
00:13:56,900 --> 00:13:59,400
And wanted this right away and 
then there were two. 

266
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It said, no, because I already 
have a system to organize this, 

267
00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:05,000
and this will conflict with my 
system. 

268
00:14:05,100 --> 00:14:09,200
Those were the power users. 
And this ratio of about Twelve 

269
00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,400
to fifteen percent of people 
that don't want the inbox in 

270
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,700
hate it, when we showed it to 
them repeated throughout our 

271
00:14:15,700 --> 00:14:17,900
research. 
So it was really interesting to 

272
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see, incidentally, a lot of my 
colleagues were in this group. 

273
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,100
So it was a hard sell to 
convince them that people 

274
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actually need this because they 
were like, we have solutions for

275
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this, why do we need another 
one? 

276
00:14:29,700 --> 00:14:33,700
And also the technical press 
before we launched, we sent it 

277
00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:36,900
for preview to a lot of article,
writers and newspapers. 

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00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:40,100
Technical reviewers ahead. 
Time and day of the week to 

279
00:14:40,100 --> 00:14:43,000
review and the reviews are very 
tapi. 

280
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,700
They were like, I don't 
understand why this is needed, 

281
00:14:45,700 --> 00:14:49,400
no one was excited but we knew 
by then we tested so much with 

282
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,100
the regular users that I 
actually loved it and it does 

283
00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:54,200
exactly what they need. 
So we didn't care. 

284
00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,600
So that just comes to show you 
that even the technical press 

285
00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:01,100
and even the expert, can't 
really predict always what's 

286
00:15:01,100 --> 00:15:02,400
work. 
What does work? 

287
00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:05,800
Well, this is a very valuable 
sharing especially for people 

288
00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,800
who like to do experiment of 
their products introduced new. 

289
00:15:08,900 --> 00:15:11,400
Diaz, right, I think always 
validating with your customers, 

290
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:14,700
your users, not following some 
reviews from some experts of 

291
00:15:14,700 --> 00:15:18,000
prayers or even maybe the 
internal employees. 

292
00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:19,800
Sometimes, you can't trust them 
as well. 

293
00:15:19,900 --> 00:15:22,900
So always validate with your 
users relating to the internal 

294
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:24,300
employees. 
I think there's one thing that I

295
00:15:24,308 --> 00:15:26,900
also love from what Google is 
doing, which is called the 

296
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:28,800
dogfooding, you mentioned about 
it as well, right? 

297
00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,000
Before you launch, you do very 
thorough, thousands of googlers 

298
00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,200
using it. 
Maybe tell us a bit more about 

299
00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:36,900
dogfooding why it is important 
and how we should do it. 

300
00:15:36,900 --> 00:15:40,200
Maybe more properly. 
Solutely, by the way, it's not 

301
00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,600
just Google. 
It's a very common practice in 

302
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:46,600
Silicon Valley or in Tech in 
general, historically, Apple 

303
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:49,400
relies on it extensively, they 
don't call it dogfooding but 

304
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:52,400
Apple doesn't like to do 
external user research but they 

305
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,600
use their employees extensively 
to test their products for 

306
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,800
years. 
Sometimes, Microsoft, the same 

307
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,300
when I joined Microsoft in 2003.
The first thing I noticed was 

308
00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:06,600
that Outlook mail client, was 
completely buggy, ask people 

309
00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,800
what's going on and said oh 
that's because we're all. 

310
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:10,700
Dogfooding the next version of 
Outlook. 

311
00:16:10,700 --> 00:16:14,400
So that was the norm. 
So it's a really powerful way to

312
00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,900
get your colleagues to 
participate and to give you 

313
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:21,700
feedback, early feedback, there 
are much more tolerant of bugs 

314
00:16:21,700 --> 00:16:25,700
than the customers would be the 
much more supportive and also 

315
00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,300
many of them are technical 
enough to tell you exactly 

316
00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:31,500
what's going on what's wrong. 
But you mentioned a very 

317
00:16:31,500 --> 00:16:33,900
important point. 
They don't always represent your

318
00:16:33,900 --> 00:16:36,200
ideal customer the one that you 
want. 

319
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,800
I mean, most of the people you 
find in your company. 

320
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:42,000
Very technical or tech-savvy. 
I have a certain level of 

321
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:46,100
Education, income, Etc, certain 
age groups, so be aware that 

322
00:16:46,100 --> 00:16:49,500
this is not necessarily 
representative what we did with 

323
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,800
the inbox. 
For example, I invited dog, 

324
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,500
fooders first off, we did fish 
food, which was the team itself.

325
00:16:56,500 --> 00:17:00,000
Started testing a very rough 
version of the product on our 

326
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:02,000
own in boxes just to convince us
of the. 

327
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:03,900
There is value there, that's yet
another test. 

328
00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:07,700
I recommend trying, if you are 
in the target audience, there's 

329
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:09,900
also something called a back 
dish. 

330
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:14,500
Even if you are developing some,
I don't know B2B system for, I 

331
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:16,700
don't know. 
Doctors for information 

332
00:17:16,700 --> 00:17:18,900
retrieval. 
You're not in the target 

333
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:20,500
audience. 
You're not going to be able to 

334
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:24,500
dog food this in your real life,
but have the T in come for a day

335
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,599
or half a day, and just try to 
complete some tasks with the 

336
00:17:27,599 --> 00:17:31,000
software developed, and you'll 
be surprised how much more 

337
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,500
enlightened they become by the 
end of this experiment. 

338
00:17:33,500 --> 00:17:36,400
So, bug crashes. 
Another interesting, way to get 

339
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,400
into the shoes of the customer 
with the Little tab in books, we

340
00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:45,000
launched it to anyone who wanted
but I also send them a survey to

341
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,000
try to understand what kind of 
inbox management during 

342
00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,200
employing already. 
So we had the big in boxers 

343
00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:54,300
which were the people were not 
cleaning their inbox and those 

344
00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:58,500
were the ones we listen to most 
closely we had the small in 

345
00:17:58,500 --> 00:18:01,400
boxers in the zero in boxes 
which are like the I don't know,

346
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:05,400
the ninja Cult of inbox 
management, you know inbox zero 

347
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,700
almost no one does it it 
requires extreme. 

348
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:11,600
Appling to do it. 
But in Google, a lot of people 

349
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,700
thought that that's how people 
actually should use their inbox 

350
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,800
completely irrelevant to the 
regular user. 

351
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:22,500
So when a is 0 in boxer, came to
me and said, you know, here's a 

352
00:18:22,508 --> 00:18:26,100
problem. 
How would qualify this with this

353
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,500
kind of? 
I know that person has a certain

354
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,800
mindset that is not necessarily 
representative of the larger 

355
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,500
population. 
So very powerful tool but learn 

356
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:38,800
to qualify who's saying what 
your managers are not. 

357
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,100
To representative of the 
audience either external 

358
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,400
experts, there are experts is 
great. 

359
00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,100
To listen, to them is great to 
talk to them. 

360
00:18:46,100 --> 00:18:47,800
They'd kill not necessarily 
predict. 

361
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,000
How people will see the product,
people, react, to products in a 

362
00:18:51,008 --> 00:18:53,400
very complex way. 
Partly emotional part of the 

363
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,100
intellectual part irrational, 
probably not the social and 

364
00:18:57,100 --> 00:18:59,200
limit. 
It's a very hard thing to 

365
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,200
predict, really. 
So don't trust logic alone or 

366
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,100
the views of experts. 
Thanks for sharing that I think 

367
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:08,700
it's really valuable or these 
lessons learned from you. 

368
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,300
Or Gmail experience. 
So let's move on to what you're 

369
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:13,400
doing. 
Now, you are now coaching people

370
00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,800
more on the product management, 
teaching them how to probably do

371
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,700
product management much better. 
And you have one technique, 

372
00:19:20,700 --> 00:19:25,000
which I think called just G is, 
T, which stands for goals ideas,

373
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:27,600
steps and tasks. 
Maybe can you share a little 

374
00:19:27,600 --> 00:19:29,400
bit? 
What is this G is about, and 

375
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,100
what kind of problem are you 
trying to solve by having this 

376
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:33,700
framework? 
Sure. 

377
00:19:34,100 --> 00:19:37,200
So, one of the questions in the 
back of my mind, throughout my 

378
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,800
career, was why some companies 
There's also much more 

379
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,400
successful at producing high 
value, high impact products than

380
00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,500
others. 
And part of the reason, is 

381
00:19:45,500 --> 00:19:49,600
Corporate culture and some 
companies are a bit more behind 

382
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,500
than some of the more advanced, 
but I don't think that covers 

383
00:19:52,500 --> 00:19:54,700
all of it. 
Sometimes companies with bad 

384
00:19:54,700 --> 00:19:57,600
cultures, managed to do a good 
product and vice versa. 

385
00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:01,000
So I was looking for the kind of
the best practices or the 

386
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:05,700
principles that really helped, 
and the principles are pretty 

387
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:08,200
well, understood. 
You need to be customer Centric.

388
00:20:08,200 --> 00:20:11,700
You need to Be evidence driven 
or evidence guided, which I 

389
00:20:11,708 --> 00:20:15,400
think is very, very important. 
You need to be able to adapt 

390
00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,400
your plan or just stick to 
roadmap. 

391
00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,100
This is true on the road map. 
Level is true on the Sprint 

392
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:21,700
level. 
You need to be truly agile, 

393
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:25,200
giving you information and you 
need to empower people because 

394
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,300
it doesn't work. 
If you centralize all the 

395
00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:31,700
decisions in the hands of a few 
very small people, you need to 

396
00:20:31,700 --> 00:20:34,800
distribute the decision to 
create an organization that is 

397
00:20:34,900 --> 00:20:38,300
intelligent enough to coalesce 
around the problems. 

398
00:20:38,300 --> 00:20:41,600
Try Thinks it's a. 
So those are the principles. 

399
00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:45,000
Those are well understood for 
decades but some companies are 

400
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:47,400
better at implementing them than
others. 

401
00:20:47,500 --> 00:20:50,500
Google was an example. 
I saw in Google how some of 

402
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:54,100
these were very powerful and you
could even see some of this 

403
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:55,800
coming out in the examples I 
gave you. 

404
00:20:56,100 --> 00:20:59,000
And I could compare this to my 
experience in Microsoft that was

405
00:20:59,100 --> 00:21:01,800
a completely different place. 
I would say on this aspects, 

406
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,200
maybe it's changed since then 
and I found it. 

407
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:08,700
The difference comes to four 
areas of change. 

408
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,700
Or four areas that we need to 
tackle. 

409
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,900
The first is how we set up goals
and what's in this goes so 

410
00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:17,700
everyone uses. 
Okay ours this data is great but

411
00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:19,600
okay, I was can contain terrible
goals. 

412
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,900
Really bad goals in the contain,
the right type of gold 16 

413
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:26,600
contain dozens of objectives and
cures on it contained just three

414
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,300
but very focused one. 
So what is the right practice? 

415
00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:34,800
Stir and we know some of the 
roles outcomes over output less 

416
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,500
is more tied to actual 
behavioral metrics of Customers 

417
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:44,600
not just Revenue but the actual 
guidelines of how to do this 

418
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:46,400
escape, a lot of companies I 
work with. 

419
00:21:46,500 --> 00:21:50,200
So that's one area that I think 
a lot of companies can improve 

420
00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,000
and that's the goals layers. 
Each one of these goals are 

421
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,100
tied, but each one is 
semi-independent. 

422
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:57,100
You can Implement just the gold 
changes. 

423
00:21:57,100 --> 00:22:00,500
For example, to start with, you 
can set the nose down metric, 

424
00:22:00,500 --> 00:22:02,900
you can set your metrics for 
you, can start using our kiosk 

425
00:22:02,900 --> 00:22:07,100
correctly and those are, some of
the things I teach the second 

426
00:22:07,100 --> 00:22:10,900
change is, how do you choose? 
Which ideas to invest in that 

427
00:22:10,900 --> 00:22:14,700
the ideas layer and idea, just 
for clarification is a 

428
00:22:14,700 --> 00:22:18,100
hypothetical way to achieve the 
goal, could be launching. 

429
00:22:18,100 --> 00:22:21,700
A new feature could be 
partnering, it could be starting

430
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:24,700
to use a new API. 
It could be purchasing a company

431
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:26,800
that does exactly what you want.
These are all ideas, 

432
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,900
hypothetical ways. 
As I mentioned earlier, the 

433
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:32,900
statistics suggested that the 
best case one is Raiders will 

434
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,400
work. 
And in reality in most companies

435
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,400
and most cases it's 1 in 10 
unfortunately, which means Maybe

436
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:43,100
90% of what's currently in your 
product backlog in your roadmap 

437
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,100
stuff. 
You don't really want to do. 

438
00:22:45,100 --> 00:22:48,300
It's a waste, it's going to do 
nothing and it's not hard to see

439
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:50,200
the result of this. 
Just look at the existing 

440
00:22:50,200 --> 00:22:52,700
product. 
How blow to their with features?

441
00:22:52,700 --> 00:22:55,800
That get almost no usage. 
This is true for every product. 

442
00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:58,200
I worked on these features are a
liability. 

443
00:22:58,200 --> 00:22:59,600
You have to keep maintaining 
them. 

444
00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,600
You need to keep sustaining 
them, they create bugs for you 

445
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:05,200
in the future, the complicated, 
your cue a matrix. 

446
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:07,700
So it's best not to launch these
things. 

447
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:09,700
It's best to invest in. 
The thing that really move the 

448
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:12,300
needle. 
So participation is a key 

449
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:14,200
challenge. 
It always comes up as one of the

450
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,600
top challenges. 
When I speak to product teams, 

451
00:23:16,700 --> 00:23:18,800
we don't know how to choose the 
best ideas. 

452
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:23,300
How do you choose based on 
opinions based on consensus 

453
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:25,900
based on the opinion of the 
highest person? 

454
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:30,100
You know the system and it is a 
very unreliable the risks so 

455
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:32,400
they send us again and again 
into the wrong direction. 

456
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,200
So what I teach usually is how 
to use ice which again is very 

457
00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:41,500
common is very well known. 
But to go very deep on the eye 

458
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:45,300
on the ear, especially on the 
see the confidence, how to 

459
00:23:45,300 --> 00:23:48,900
choose ideas and how to 
attribute confidence them based 

460
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:51,500
on evidence. 
And for that, I created a tool 

461
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:55,000
called The Confidence meter, 
which is now gaining popularity 

462
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,800
quite a few companies are using 
it if you want, we can talk 

463
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,000
about it later. 
So that's the idea layer, how to

464
00:24:01,000 --> 00:24:05,500
choose their gears that are most
likely to succeed, but there's a

465
00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:08,800
big quotation around most likely
because this is, again, just as 

466
00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:12,500
Set of assumptions and a set of 
guesswork and some work with 

467
00:24:12,500 --> 00:24:14,500
evidence. 
It doesn't guarantee that if you

468
00:24:14,500 --> 00:24:17,100
do good participation, you 
necessarily land on the road and

469
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,300
take dere's no-one can actually 
predict, definitely not ice. 

470
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,500
So you need to test these ideas,
and that's the step layer. 

471
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:29,300
So, the steps are is about how 
to experiment, how to get ideas 

472
00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:32,600
from concept. 
To a launch feature by combining

473
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:35,300
learning and building at the 
same time and I give some 

474
00:24:35,300 --> 00:24:37,800
examples. 
So, a Wizard of Oz test is an 

475
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:40,800
early stage test. 
Before that you can do back of 

476
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,200
the envelope calculation, before
that you can do ice analysis 

477
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,100
before. 
You can do assumption mapping. 

478
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,200
There's a ton of things and 
later on, if you see the deer 

479
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:53,800
still worthwhile investing. 
If you also, you pivoted, you 

480
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,100
improve it along the way, then 
it becomes worthwhile starting 

481
00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:59,400
doing the more expensive 
experiments, you know, the dog 

482
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:03,100
foods of the fish Foods, the 
early adopter programs, Alphas, 

483
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:06,700
betas, Etc. 
ABX permit really depends on the

484
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,000
type of idea. 
If it's a big idea or smaller, 

485
00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:12,000
Idea, if it's risky, or not 
risky in your level of risk, I 

486
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,000
mentioned in Gmail, we were very
risk-averse, but some companies 

487
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:16,800
are should be less risk averse 
than us. 

488
00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,500
Based on that. 
You need to decide how many of 

489
00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:21,500
these tests you need to build 
along the way. 

490
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:25,100
So sometimes you can do just one
test and launch the idea, 

491
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,200
sometimes you can rely on expert
opinion, because it's a very 

492
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,300
tiny change, and it doesn't 
create much risk. 

493
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,500
It's an art form. 
You need to learn to combine. 

494
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:35,900
So that's what I teach in the 
steps layer. 

495
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:39,000
Before me, a step is like an 
experiment or an iteration. 

496
00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:41,900
Teach us something. 
Then the big question is how to 

497
00:25:41,900 --> 00:25:44,200
run this whole thing? 
How to do project management 

498
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:48,400
with an agile team, especially 
we all have this scrum teams or 

499
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:52,100
kanban teams or whatever, how to
bring this, to their lives and 

500
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:55,400
how to prevent the managers and 
the stakeholders form. 

501
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,000
Randomizing us constantly and 
coming in with new ideas and 

502
00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,900
pushing us around. 
And so that's the task layer. 

503
00:26:01,900 --> 00:26:05,800
This is how to get the teams to 
work on the right things with 

504
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,100
tremendous amount of context. 
Because what I see is a lot A 

505
00:26:09,108 --> 00:26:12,200
lot of engineering teams or 
development teams caught up in 

506
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,800
protective edger layers 
protected from the customers 

507
00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:18,100
protected from the business. 
They don't need to be bothered 

508
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:20,200
with this thing's. 
Just give us a prioritized 

509
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,200
product backlog. 
That just break each item in the

510
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,200
backlog into user stories. 
I don't know if you ever seen 

511
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,700
this process and after that, we 
will build it for you. 

512
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:32,500
That's our job. 
That's a terrible mindset, I'm 

513
00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:34,700
sorry. 
This is not how good companies 

514
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:37,000
build products. 
You should not work this way at 

515
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,900
all. 
What you should do is A lot of 

516
00:26:39,908 --> 00:26:41,900
context, the goals, they they 
are the steps. 

517
00:26:41,900 --> 00:26:44,400
All this creates a lot of 
contacts, in the minds of the 

518
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:49,300
people do the work and kind of 
Empower them to a suggest ideas.

519
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:54,200
Be invent some of the experiment
and see become explorers in a 

520
00:26:54,208 --> 00:26:56,800
sense. 
The become discovers not just 

521
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:02,200
people who deliver, but people 
also discover and that should be

522
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:05,200
part of their job description. 
And this should be part of what 

523
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,100
they're compensated on that. 
We should move away from this 

524
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,400
output Focus. 
That about of teams living. 

525
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:12,500
So, that's what I teach in the 
task layer. 

526
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,600
It's really jammed packed and I 
think there are a lot of 

527
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,300
insights. 
Maybe we will cover one by one, 

528
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:20,300
but before we start with all 
these goals task steps and all 

529
00:27:20,300 --> 00:27:23,000
that you touch on something that
is pretty common in many 

530
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,700
startups or product company. 
Right? 

531
00:27:24,700 --> 00:27:27,500
It's about product roadmap and I
know that specifically you wrote

532
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:29,600
something about problems with 
product roadmap. 

533
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,400
Some companies do like the 
yearly product roadmap or even 

534
00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,900
quarterly. 
So tell us why this is a 

535
00:27:34,900 --> 00:27:36,900
challenge. 
And what does this do 

536
00:27:36,900 --> 00:27:38,600
differently with product 
roadmap? 

537
00:27:39,100 --> 00:27:42,900
All right, so the criticism of 
product world map is widespread,

538
00:27:42,900 --> 00:27:45,300
it's not just me. 
Let's start with the Positive. 

539
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,700
Why do we need Road? 
That's what function road maps, 

540
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:51,000
provide so, road maps. 
Provide some sort of sense of 

541
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,400
security, or some sort of sense 
that we are, well, planned. 

542
00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:58,100
And we know what, to expect this
feature will end in this quarter

543
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,600
Etc. 
And then we can plan the rest of

544
00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,800
the companies, where the 
marketing team can start 

545
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:05,600
preparing their marketing 
materials and training, the 

546
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,800
sales team, and the sales team 
can prepare and maybe inform the

547
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,300
customer. 
Customers and depending on which

548
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:13,400
company you work for the CTO is 
happy? 

549
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,600
Because he or she can level the 
results so that kind of know how

550
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:20,800
many they need to recruit each 
quarter planning. 

551
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,900
It's wonderful. 
Everyone loves a good plan and 

552
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:27,000
this is a mindset that we 
inherited from the industry that

553
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:29,200
preceded us. 
You know, the 20th century kind 

554
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,400
of manufacturing and probably 
that worked when you're 

555
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,800
producing calls or packaged 
consumer goods or all these 

556
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,900
other things, the challenges we 
Face a lot more. 

557
00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:41,200
Uncertainty. 
Then these industries of the 

558
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,800
past were classic business 
management was dominant. 

559
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:48,700
There's a lot of uncertainty in 
the markets because the markets 

560
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:52,000
are very Dynamic with software 
and the internet two guys or two

561
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,900
girls in a garage can disrupt 
our Market within a few years. 

562
00:28:56,300 --> 00:28:58,700
Thus far fewer barriers to 
entry. 

563
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:00,900
The customers have a lot of 
choice. 

564
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:04,500
The customers are very fickle, 
they can change their mind, so 

565
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,100
we can't afford to just lock 
yourself into a plan that It 

566
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,400
doesn't react to new information
that will be very very bad for 

567
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,400
business and they're bad for a 
product. 

568
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,200
The second thing is these plans 
never come together is expected 

569
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,000
to just need to look at last 
year's roadmap, how well did we 

570
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:23,600
deliver when it some things were
delivered very late? 

571
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,500
Some things were canceled new 
ideas that we didn't even 

572
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:28,100
disagreed on in the Middle Road 
map. 

573
00:29:28,100 --> 00:29:30,800
All of a sudden hop to the top 
and that's my baby, okay, 

574
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,200
because that's actually makes us
a bit more agile. 

575
00:29:33,200 --> 00:29:37,600
Just shows that This heavyweight
process, this tremendous effort 

576
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,000
in actually prioritize The ideas
and choosing and putting them on

577
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:42,900
the roadmap. 
And scaling, the results has. 

578
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,300
It's not worthwhile doing. 
We need to actually try to do 

579
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:48,800
something. 
That is more agile, and I can go

580
00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,500
on about all the different 
negative side effects, cultural 

581
00:29:52,500 --> 00:29:55,900
and other that kind of being 
attached to roadmaps create a 

582
00:29:55,908 --> 00:29:59,100
lot of organizations understand 
this and they moved from yearly 

583
00:29:59,100 --> 00:30:02,200
roadmaps to quarterly roadmaps. 
And then after that, there's a 

584
00:30:02,208 --> 00:30:05,700
bit of a non-committal world, my
power, I call it the next and 

585
00:30:05,700 --> 00:30:09,600
later sort of concept but even 
committing Into a quarter. 

586
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,000
Each time means the during this 
quarter, you don't really have 

587
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:15,700
the freedom to launch. 
Whatever you think you need to 

588
00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:17,800
launch. 
It's imperative to have this 

589
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,400
Freedom. 
Equality is a lot of time in 

590
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:23,800
most of our businesses. 
So I think a programmatic 

591
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,700
approach to this is to realize 
that this certain types of ideas

592
00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,200
where we gained high confidence.
We're already tested and we went

593
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:33,600
through our dog food and the 
early, whatever. 

594
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:35,100
We're pretty sure this is a good
idea. 

595
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:39,300
And by that point, we're already
built the product to Early in 

596
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:41,300
order to test it that we know 
already. 

597
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:44,400
Also, we have pretty good 
confidence about how much effort

598
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,800
it will take to finish with 
these ideas. 

599
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,900
I'm pretty comfortable to put it
on a timeline and saving we're 

600
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:55,900
going to launch this q1 even 
specific date and q1 because the

601
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:58,200
risk is pretty loaded. 
By committing to, this were 

602
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:00,400
actually doing something bad. 
It's a good idea. 

603
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,000
We want to launch it. 
We know how. 

604
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:06,000
So for those feel free to commit
the other ones, the ones that 

605
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,800
are in process of being 
evaluated, I would I'd say don't

606
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,400
commit to them just color them 
and say you know these are the 

607
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,900
errors are medium confidence. 
We only tested them to this 

608
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:19,900
level, they might happen, they 
might not happen, we don't 

609
00:31:19,900 --> 00:31:22,500
commit, we don't know for sure 
and then there's ideas that are 

610
00:31:22,500 --> 00:31:26,300
low confidence etcetera, so 
that's add ideas level at the 

611
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:29,700
goals level. 
I would say that most company 

612
00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:32,000
strategy, stretch multiple 
gears. 

613
00:31:32,700 --> 00:31:34,800
Then there's a yearly. 
Okay? 

614
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,100
Are for the company that says 
this is where we want to be by 

615
00:31:38,100 --> 00:31:41,300
the end of the year. 
But you could actually own the 

616
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,000
timelines. 
Say we want this particular key 

617
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:47,900
result of this particular 
objective 2 complete by and of 

618
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:51,400
H1, right? 
So by this data so you can kind 

619
00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:56,300
of plot your goals, your company
level goes until Level goes on a

620
00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:00,100
timeline, that's sometimes 
called an outcome-based roadmap.

621
00:32:00,500 --> 00:32:02,600
So what do we want to achieve by
one? 

622
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,900
That's also how to predict it's 
also a bit brittle but it's less

623
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:10,400
likely to break than committing 
to a set of Of concrete ideas. 

624
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,900
I assure you. 
So it's worthwhile doing this 

625
00:32:12,900 --> 00:32:16,000
exercise. 
Then there's the question. 

626
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:17,600
Okay, but what do we tell the 
customers. 

627
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,200
How do we prepare? 
What about marketing and sales? 

628
00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,300
What about resource leveling? 
These are really important 

629
00:32:23,300 --> 00:32:25,100
questions. 
I'm not discounting them. 

630
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,000
I do think that if you want to 
be truly agile, these people 

631
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,000
need to learn agility is with 
the CTO needs to learn to plan 

632
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,100
in a more agile way. 
And to learn that, sometimes he 

633
00:32:36,100 --> 00:32:39,100
or she will need to recycle 
people for project that failed 

634
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:41,900
to another project. 
And that's just the way it is 

635
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:46,200
the marketing and sales people. 
I talk to Not necessarily in 

636
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:48,400
love with Rodman's either. 
They know that there are late. 

637
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:51,100
They know that most world maps 
actually don't come together as 

638
00:32:51,100 --> 00:32:52,700
expected. 
They know that a lot of these 

639
00:32:52,700 --> 00:32:56,200
features that are promised are 
not the best ones, they really 

640
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:59,100
want to create value for the 
customers to because that makes 

641
00:32:59,100 --> 00:33:00,500
their life so much easier, 
right? 

642
00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:04,600
High value is what the customers
want that aligns all goals with 

643
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:06,900
their goals. 
So the business seems really 

644
00:33:06,900 --> 00:33:09,400
understand this. 
I saw a lot of business tips 

645
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,200
being willing to be much more 
agile and adaptive, and Lynn 

646
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,500
than the executives, Give them 
credit. 

647
00:33:15,500 --> 00:33:18,300
They don't want to tie the 
engineering team necessarily to 

648
00:33:18,300 --> 00:33:21,100
set of deliverables if they know
they can make their business 

649
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:23,100
goals. 
And that's really where we need 

650
00:33:23,100 --> 00:33:25,700
to all aligned. 
Not only set of launches, but of

651
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:29,100
set of business goals that the 
team's commit to be a question 

652
00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:31,600
of trust there. 
You need to build the trust in 

653
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,800
the engineering of the 
development team that they can 

654
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,100
actually deliver this. 
And this is a big hurdle to 

655
00:33:37,100 --> 00:33:39,400
Traverse. 
But if you're there, the 

656
00:33:39,408 --> 00:33:42,900
companies that are in this 
position, the much better lined,

657
00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:45,200
the spend much less time on 
Learning. 

658
00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:48,500
They have much better outcomes 
at the end of the day, because 

659
00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:52,400
everything they do is towards 
business and user goals, and 

660
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,200
they don't need to invest as 
much resources. 

661
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,800
Actually use the resources in a 
much better way. 

662
00:33:57,300 --> 00:34:01,200
So this is I think is the ideal.
You need to Aspire to thanks for

663
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,500
explaining that. 
I think it's really important to

664
00:34:03,500 --> 00:34:06,500
understand why product roadmaps 
failed and what are some of the 

665
00:34:06,500 --> 00:34:08,900
things that you propose here to 
make it better? 

666
00:34:08,900 --> 00:34:11,699
I think apart from trusting you 
also touched on in the beginning

667
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:14,900
that the team also needs to know
a lot of context, not just like 

668
00:34:14,900 --> 00:34:17,300
okay, here are the features that
we want to build, but also tie 

669
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:19,000
it back to like, why we want to 
do it. 

670
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,800
Which customer, what kind of 
problems? 

671
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:22,400
What business goals that we want
to do? 

672
00:34:22,699 --> 00:34:25,000
And, I think another challenge 
that I normally see is about 

673
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,400
alignment, we have multiple 
teams in the company. 

674
00:34:27,500 --> 00:34:30,699
We have one big goal, but you 
have to align between multiple 

675
00:34:30,699 --> 00:34:33,000
teams. 
How does maybe just do 

676
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,699
differently to align these teams
or different people. 

677
00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:39,000
Different managers so that they 
can go towards the same goal. 

678
00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,500
Do you have any tips here? 
Well, alignment is a major 

679
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:46,500
Challenge and there's more than 
one Allowing problem or cause 

680
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:51,000
for misalignment, we just I'm 
trying to help deal with some of

681
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,500
the causes I cannot guarantee 
that's going to help with 

682
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:58,800
everything one is that we try to
align teams around projects, 

683
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,100
around ideas. 
Let's start from the bottom. 

684
00:35:01,100 --> 00:35:03,300
Let's say I have an idea in my 
team. 

685
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:06,100
I want to do something, then I'm
going to your team because I'm 

686
00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:08,400
depending on you. 
There are dependencies and I 

687
00:35:08,408 --> 00:35:10,300
want you to commit to my 
earlier. 

688
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:14,100
I want you to work on my project
from experience as a very 

689
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:16,100
experienced. 
Product manager, I tell you most

690
00:35:16,100 --> 00:35:18,500
of the time this feels they have
their own ideas. 

691
00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:20,400
They don't want to commit to 
your project. 

692
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,600
You'll get a lot of pushback or 
sometimes they will say, no, I 

693
00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,100
would disagree. 
This is the best way, I suggest 

694
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,600
aligning on goals, so come to 
that other team. 

695
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,300
It's a listen. 
We want to achieve this outcome.

696
00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:36,700
We want to reduce the number of,
I don't know, hacker break-ins 

697
00:35:36,700 --> 00:35:39,800
into account by 50% next 
quarter. 

698
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,500
Do you think this is a good 
goal? 

699
00:35:41,500 --> 00:35:43,600
We depend on. 
You are you willing to commit to

700
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:45,800
this code? 
This is Much easier discussion 

701
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,100
because then they can say yes, 
or they can say yes, but we have

702
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:52,100
more important goals. 
So maybe talk to me next 

703
00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:54,700
quarter. 
Both ways are good, because if 

704
00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:56,900
they say no, you know, you 
shouldn't commit to this goal 

705
00:35:56,900 --> 00:35:58,500
because you're not going to 
achieve it. 

706
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,500
If they say yes good, then you 
ask them to copy this goal. 

707
00:36:01,500 --> 00:36:03,700
This. 
Okay, are into their okay, ours,

708
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:06,100
which is a form of commitment, 
doesn't mean you'll get it 

709
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:07,800
necessarily. 
But it does mean that there are 

710
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,400
serious about it. 
This is called a show Tokyo's 

711
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:14,800
disallowed in Google. 
So that creates alignment across

712
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,500
teams, for example, what really 
helps teams the line is. 

713
00:36:18,500 --> 00:36:22,200
If from the top there are clear 
goals and you'd be surprised in 

714
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,000
done. 
How many organizations that's 

715
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,300
not the case at all? 
There's no clear no style 

716
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:28,500
metric. 
Does nose clear? 

717
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:30,800
Set of metrics trees, there's a 
million goals. 

718
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,400
Everyone's idea becomes a goal. 
Essentially though key ours or 

719
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,700
not about outcomes are about the
set of ideas that we've decided 

720
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,000
to implement and that sends 
people in various directions or 

721
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:43,800
they get a lot of Teams to work 
on this one of these massive 

722
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,300
projects as well. 
It kind of creates alignment but

723
00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:49,700
it's really just creates a 
massive project for us to 

724
00:36:49,700 --> 00:36:54,300
collaborate on. 
So I suggest process of starting

725
00:36:54,300 --> 00:36:56,600
with very few company, level 
goals. 

726
00:36:57,100 --> 00:37:00,200
If you are medium size company, 
don't do a middle level goals, 

727
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,600
don't do departmental goals or 
disciplinary girls, don't do ux 

728
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:07,700
goals versus engineering goals. 
We don't need any of this do 

729
00:37:07,700 --> 00:37:10,300
team goals, and each team needs 
to ask yourself how can we 

730
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:14,700
contribute to the company goals?
And the answer often is, I need 

731
00:37:14,700 --> 00:37:17,100
to collaborate with these three 
other teams in order to achieve 

732
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:20,400
that particular goal. 
Middle managers are very good at

733
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,600
helping the team's connect the 
dots and helping them actually 

734
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:27,000
forcing them to collaborate, but
you don't need the middle 

735
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,200
managers to create goals in 
order to do this in a larger 

736
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,800
company, where you start having 
business units, Etc, then? 

737
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,500
Yeah, it makes sense to have 
more middle level goals. 

738
00:37:36,500 --> 00:37:41,400
So, fewer goals, if you are 
mid-level goals alignment on 

739
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,900
goals instead, Set of ideas. 
These are just some of the ideas

740
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,400
can provide, thanks for sharing 
that. 

741
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,300
So, one thing that I pick 
interest is about fewer goals. 

742
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:54,300
Some companies, of course, if 
not all, they have many ideas 

743
00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:55,900
and they have multiple 
stakeholders. 

744
00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:57,500
Right? 
So these stakeholder has maybe 

745
00:37:57,500 --> 00:38:00,000
more Revenue. 
The other is more about active 

746
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,700
users or some other about 
cost-saving you touched on 

747
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:05,700
earlier about prioritization. 
So, we have so many ideas within

748
00:38:05,700 --> 00:38:08,400
company, maybe they are all 
aligned to the same goal. 

749
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,700
Maybe they are all different. 
How do you do this 

750
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,900
privatization? 
Maybe can you Tell us a little 

751
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:15,300
bit more about this ice 
technique and coming to the 

752
00:38:15,300 --> 00:38:18,300
confidence meter that you also 
touched on earlier as well. 

753
00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:21,300
All right, cool. 
And by the way, you raise a good

754
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:23,000
point. 
I talked about alignment inside 

755
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,900
the product organization in 
between tears, but there's even 

756
00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:28,600
a bigger question for alignment 
against business stakeholders 

757
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:32,100
Etc, but participation kind of 
comes into that cuz that's 

758
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:34,600
really where we feel some of the
pressure, right? 

759
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,500
Everyone comes with their 
favorite idea. 

760
00:38:36,500 --> 00:38:39,500
Everyone is convinced that this 
idea is to be at the top of the 

761
00:38:39,500 --> 00:38:42,000
list, sometimes it turns into 
Political. 

762
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:46,300
Pressure escalations, and often 
as a product manager, I had the 

763
00:38:46,300 --> 00:38:49,400
least power, least influence, 
and the list political skills. 

764
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,100
I didn't know how to escalate. 
I didn't know how to do all this

765
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:53,800
stuff that these guys were 
experts it. 

766
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,100
So how do you defend against it?
First and foremost, you need 

767
00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:00,400
good goals. 
I'm sorry to go back to this. 

768
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,200
If there's no clear agreement of
what your company in the world, 

769
00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:05,900
to your team is trying to 
achieve. 

770
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:09,500
Everything is a good idea. 
It's really open market. 

771
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:11,900
Just whatever pushes harder will
get their idea. 

772
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,900
So you need to be very clear 
about what's your goal. 

773
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,600
If you're the on boarding team, 
your goal is to improve the 

774
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:21,900
percentage, completion rate of 
onboarding. 

775
00:39:21,900 --> 00:39:25,900
For example, that's your local 
no style of your team and this 

776
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:28,500
should be reflected in your 
goals and when someone comes to 

777
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:31,300
and with an idea and says, you 
know, what will be cool, we 

778
00:39:31,300 --> 00:39:34,800
really want to do this cross 
company initiatives, that puts 

779
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,500
emojis in everything, you say 
that wonderful, but 

780
00:39:37,500 --> 00:39:41,000
unfortunately, it doesn't stack 
up very high in my list of 

781
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:43,300
priorities. 
Because look, This is what I'm 

782
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:46,000
committed to and this was 
reviewed by my managers, and my,

783
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:48,300
managers managers in the 
stakeholders, and everyone said,

784
00:39:48,300 --> 00:39:51,300
yes, the on boarding team needs 
to focus on these things. 

785
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,500
So now you're coming with this 
other thing, I'm sorry, this 

786
00:39:54,500 --> 00:39:58,300
quarter, I cannot help you and 
derailing to Tech director Min. 

787
00:39:58,300 --> 00:40:01,300
Write it down, put it in your 
idea back but don't necessarily 

788
00:40:01,500 --> 00:40:03,800
without the goals. 
It's really hard for you. 

789
00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:07,500
You have nothing to back on to 
rely on to push back, sometimes 

790
00:40:07,500 --> 00:40:10,000
own ideas. 
So that's number one. 

791
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,900
Then when you have a bunch of 
ideas, You need to somehow stack

792
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:17,500
rank them and create what I call
a hint, which ideas you want to 

793
00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,600
test first and that's ice, 
essentially, some people 

794
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,400
consider eyes like magic. 
It's like it will tell me 

795
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,500
exactly what I should build. 
And after that, I just build it.

796
00:40:26,500 --> 00:40:29,500
I don't need to test it anymore 
because I said that's a 

797
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:32,500
completely bogus interpretation 
for dices. 

798
00:40:32,500 --> 00:40:34,900
It doesn't work this way. 
It will never work this way. 

799
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:36,500
There's no magic, no one can 
tell. 

800
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:40,500
You is just gives you an a hint.
How does it do it? 

801
00:40:40,500 --> 00:40:43,000
By breaking the question 2. 
Three parts. 

802
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,100
One is what is the impact impact
on? 

803
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,800
What on the goals which 
particular goals? 

804
00:40:48,900 --> 00:40:52,800
The usually it's either the 
North or metric of your company 

805
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:56,900
or your business unit or if 
that's really how to measure 

806
00:40:56,900 --> 00:41:01,300
than you know, style metric is a
team if that's not the case of 

807
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:04,000
maybe on a key result of 
specifically result, right? 

808
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:08,700
We wanted to shorten the average
onboarding time from 30 days to 

809
00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:11,700
two days. 
Which ideas, what's the impact? 

810
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:15,800
On this thing, of course it's a 
gas but this gas will improve. 

811
00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:18,100
The more you test. 
The idea you start with a guess 

812
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:21,000
and then it's becomes a much 
more educated guess with some of

813
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:22,000
these techniques. 
I mentioned. 

814
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:26,100
The second question is, is that 
the e at the end? 

815
00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:29,800
That's basically the opposite of
person wakes, in most 

816
00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:32,800
development teams in a marketing
team, it might be marketing 

817
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:34,600
dollars. 
It, whatever is the most scarce 

818
00:41:34,600 --> 00:41:39,800
resource and easy ideas wanted, 
we can launch relatively quickly

819
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:43,500
and with low-cost and expensive,
Dear a low easy. 

820
00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:46,400
There is the opposite and then 
there's confidence and 

821
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,700
confidence is basically how sure
are we that the impact and the 

822
00:41:50,700 --> 00:41:53,600
ease of what we think they're. 
So when they're our guests and 

823
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,900
all their best owners, my gut 
feeling, the confidence should 

824
00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:01,900
be near zero because if there's 
an unreliable sort of evidence 

825
00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:05,800
that Self Conviction, every 
terrible idea that was ever out 

826
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,800
there in the world. 
Someone thought it's a good 

827
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,600
idea, and we can see now in some
very notable companies, how very

828
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:15,600
Enterpreneurs. 
Push them to do really stupid 

829
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,200
things because there are sure 
there are good ideas and there 

830
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:21,100
are very convincing their 
ability to predict the future. 

831
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,600
So don't fall into this trap, 
but then if you start doing 

832
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,500
back-of-the-envelope 
calculations and reviews with 

833
00:42:28,500 --> 00:42:31,500
your peers and with experts and 
the market research, 

834
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:34,800
competitive, research, customer 
interviews, Etc. 

835
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:39,100
You go up a scale of confidence 
that is logarithmic, by the way,

836
00:42:39,100 --> 00:42:41,800
it goes up the test become 
harder and harder. 

837
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,600
Most, I Diaz will fall along the
way. 

838
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:47,000
This is the confidence M. 
I mentioned it kind of Encompass

839
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:49,600
that and then you can give 
yourself higher and higher 

840
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:53,900
confidence scores along the way.
And what happens usually, it's, 

841
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:57,700
you're also able to adjust the 
eye in the E, the impact in the 

842
00:42:57,700 --> 00:43:00,000
is because you know, much 
better. 

843
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,800
Now how impactful this is and 
how is it going to be unusually?

844
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:07,800
The impact goes down, and it 
goes up because you realize it's

845
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:09,800
not going to be as impactful as 
does. 

846
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:11,400
The something called the 
planning fallacy. 

847
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:15,400
And now in, Logical mechanisms. 
We have we tend to underestimate

848
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,800
the time of tasks and 
overestimate, the impact or the 

849
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,600
benefits, they will give us. 
So this is a good way to adjust 

850
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:24,700
for this. 
So that's how I recommend using 

851
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:26,900
ice. 
Do it once just to rank your 

852
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,400
ideas and then keep doing it as 
you'll get more evidence, don't 

853
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:34,200
stop there and definitely don't 
rely on ice as a one-time magic 

854
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,300
algorithm to tell you what to 
build. 

855
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,800
Right, so I think I read one of 
your blog as well when you 

856
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,900
illustrate how to use this ice 
for building. 

857
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:44,500
I don't know, like a internal 
portal with this chat bot or 

858
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:46,200
something like that. 
That is probably one. 

859
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:48,000
Good illustration, how we should
do this? 

860
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,200
Ice technique, right? 
Do it once but also doing 

861
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,400
iteratively and as you can see 
the I see Andy will change based

862
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,500
on more information more data 
that you have and I think that's

863
00:43:57,500 --> 00:43:59,800
a very good exercise for people 
to look at. 

864
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:03,200
So now we have done all this 
privatization, we have good 

865
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:05,300
amount of ideas. 
How do we break it down? 

866
00:44:05,500 --> 00:44:07,900
How do we deliver? 
What you call experiments or 

867
00:44:07,900 --> 00:44:11,600
steps, which is the next step. 
How do you actually scope them? 

868
00:44:11,900 --> 00:44:13,700
And make sure how we deliver 
them? 

869
00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:16,500
Because ideas are just ideas. 
The most important thing is how 

870
00:44:16,500 --> 00:44:18,500
we do. 
We roll it out to the customers,

871
00:44:18,500 --> 00:44:22,000
to the users, that will use that
idea, right? 

872
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:25,400
So experimentation, right, 
everyone wants to do its magic 

873
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:27,400
words. 
I hear a lot of companies 

874
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,300
actually are interested to 
introduce it. 

875
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,200
What I notice is that a lot of 
people because the word 

876
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:38,000
experiment sounds very rigorous 
day, Think either of a b 

877
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:44,100
experiment or betas or what they
call MVP, which is often and 

878
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:47,700
near complete version of the 
product with basically, all the 

879
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,600
features, all the bells, and 
whistles, maybe it's not super 

880
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:52,700
polished. 
When I was young, this was 

881
00:44:52,700 --> 00:44:55,600
called a better or maybe an 
alpha, but it's more like a bit 

882
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,000
of really, that's way too late 
to wait to learn whether or not.

883
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,600
It's a good idea or not to 
invest. 

884
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:04,200
It is basically waterfall. 
It's just basically building the

885
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,400
whole thing, but I notice a lot 
of companies. 

886
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:10,000
Don't realize, what, two large 
gamut of experimentation 

887
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:11,700
techniques, validation 
techniques. 

888
00:45:11,700 --> 00:45:15,500
We have at our hands at our 
fingertips to validate ideas and

889
00:45:15,500 --> 00:45:18,500
some of them don't require 
actually experimenting at all. 

890
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:24,200
So I like to break it into five 
buckets this assessment, which 

891
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,000
is just doing it on paper or 
just looking whether or not 

892
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,900
their idea or aligns with the 
gold assumption mapping to see 

893
00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:31,300
how much risk is in there. 
Dear. 

894
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:34,100
These are all things you do 
without collecting external data

895
00:45:34,100 --> 00:45:38,100
even and even those a lot of 
Allow you to eliminate a large 

896
00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:42,100
swath of your ideas Park them 
say for now don't look the most 

897
00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:45,700
promising, then there is fact 
finding which is looking at data

898
00:45:45,700 --> 00:45:49,700
that you already have usage 
data, behavioral data other 

899
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:53,200
things, conducting user 
interviews, all relying on user 

900
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:55,600
interviews, you've done in the 
past because it's best not to do

901
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,800
them just on demand but to to 
them on an ongoing basis. 

902
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:02,900
Look at competitive result like 
look deeply at your competitors.

903
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:06,400
Doing field research, there's 
all sorts of ways to get data. 

904
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:08,000
Data. 
And then asked whether or not 

905
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,600
this data, actually, confirms 
our assumptions over the ideas 

906
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:14,700
and that's a key Point. 
By the way, what we test is not 

907
00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:17,700
their leader entirely but some 
of the assumptions within their 

908
00:46:17,700 --> 00:46:20,000
dear. 
So it's sometimes good for large

909
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:22,400
idea to break out and ask what 
are the assumptions? 

910
00:46:22,900 --> 00:46:26,400
This is a very good tool called 
assumption mapping by Davey J 

911
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,600
blend very highly recommended 
and then the next phase is 

912
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,200
testing the idea starting to 
build but of course in the first

913
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:34,800
stage, you don't need to build a
whole thing. 

914
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:39,100
You can fake it, you can do. 
Tortoise landing pages. 

915
00:46:39,100 --> 00:46:42,600
Call-outs buttons in your you 
either do nothing except when 

916
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,800
you click on them, it shows the 
intended. 

917
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:46,600
People actually are interested 
in this thing and then you show 

918
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:49,100
them a little pop-up that says, 
you know, we're not quite ready,

919
00:46:49,300 --> 00:46:52,400
but do you want us to notify you
when it's ready, which is 

920
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:55,900
another test, of course, 
companies of validated the whole

921
00:46:55,900 --> 00:46:58,900
business model in this way, it's
a really powerful technique to 

922
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,800
human operator test. 
We talked about Wizard of Oz, 

923
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,500
there's something called 
concierge test. 

924
00:47:03,900 --> 00:47:07,000
There's a lot of techniques and 
of course, the The fish for 

925
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,300
Dimension. 
So there's a lot of ways to test

926
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:13,300
ideas in a very early stage 
before they're even close to 

927
00:47:13,300 --> 00:47:15,700
being finished. 
Then there's another layer which

928
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:20,400
is kind of mid-level test 
Alphas, early adopter, programs.

929
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:23,000
There's all sorts of ways to 
test ideas that are not 

930
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:24,700
polished. 
Not fully implemented. 

931
00:47:24,700 --> 00:47:28,200
Just the core scenarios, not 
scalable, not build. 

932
00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:30,900
Like we would build them to 
launch, and then later on there 

933
00:47:30,900 --> 00:47:34,600
is late stage test like, betas 
previews Labs. 

934
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:38,700
All the most rigorous This which
are A/B experiments, which have 

935
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:42,400
a controller limit, even the 
launch itself is another test. 

936
00:47:42,400 --> 00:47:45,100
So we have tests and then we 
have experiments, I call 

937
00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:47,900
experiments, only the things 
that have a control element, 

938
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:52,400
then this release, the release 
itself is an experiment to like 

939
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:56,200
when we release the tabbed inbox
we did this very gradually, we 

940
00:47:56,200 --> 00:47:58,700
launched 25 percent and we 
monitor these five percent. 

941
00:47:58,700 --> 00:48:02,000
If there's anything - starting 
to happen with there, any of 

942
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:05,700
their metric then we launched to
another 10% at the 15% we 

943
00:48:05,700 --> 00:48:08,400
surveyed The people. 
And sometimes you do a whole 

944
00:48:08,400 --> 00:48:12,600
back, you launch it to 99.5% and
then you hold the 0.5% for 

945
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,500
another few weeks out of the 
thing just to see. 

946
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:18,400
Still, if there are differences,
you have all these techniques to

947
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,000
use. 
So basically, it's the matter of

948
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,000
scheduling them, and putting 
them choosing, which ideas you 

949
00:48:25,000 --> 00:48:26,900
want to test, and then asking 
yourself which are the key 

950
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:29,800
assumption. 
Then, what's the first step we 

951
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,400
should work on this tab, what's 
next etcetera? 

952
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,500
And that kind of brings us to 
the next layer, which is how to 

953
00:48:35,500 --> 00:48:38,200
project manage. 
This how to test multiple ideas 

954
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:43,300
in parallel, how to allocate 
resources, how to Stage IT Etc. 

955
00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:46,800
Is there any specifics about 
project management or tasks that

956
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,400
you mentioned by a Java project 
management? 

957
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,700
I guess in most companies these 
days they practice Asia whether 

958
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:53,800
it's fake Asia or maybe some 
kind of a gel. 

959
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,600
Is there any tips that you think
based on your Consulting 

960
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,400
anything different that we 
should be aware of about this 

961
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:03,400
project management for the task?
I would say that angel in 

962
00:49:03,408 --> 00:49:06,300
general is a very positive thing
the especially compared to what 

963
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,800
Waterfall, as I practice it when
I was a young engineer, so it's 

964
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,000
brought a lot of advances, over 
the years. 

965
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:15,600
Especially scrum became more and
more strict mode, more 

966
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,000
structured, more and more full 
of process. 

967
00:49:18,100 --> 00:49:21,700
And I think some of the things 
team's practice today. 

968
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,000
Honestly, a lot of the founders 
of it or not. 

969
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:29,100
Super Keen about, I will not 
name names, but it became a very

970
00:49:29,100 --> 00:49:30,800
process everything. 
And then there's a lot of 

971
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:34,300
process people involved, waves 
dedicated scrum Masters and 

972
00:49:34,300 --> 00:49:37,000
dedicated agile. 
Coaches, just To drive the 

973
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:39,600
process forward. 
So it's kind of becoming Gorman 

974
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:42,100
isn't of the days of project 
management, in the days of 

975
00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:43,900
water. 
Focus waterfall, was such a 

976
00:49:43,900 --> 00:49:46,600
heavy weight thing that we 
needed dedicated project 

977
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:50,400
managers as to push through it. 
I'm not trying to break up all 

978
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,900
this. 
And if it works for you, keep 

979
00:49:52,900 --> 00:49:57,100
using it, what I try to do with 
gist is to interoperate with it 

980
00:49:57,100 --> 00:50:00,100
in a way that doesn't require 
the scheme that you're using 

981
00:50:00,100 --> 00:50:03,900
today to change very much, it 
might require some changes but 

982
00:50:03,900 --> 00:50:07,200
not a lot. 
So what I suggest Tim's Do is 

983
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:11,500
use what we call the gist mode, 
which is basically a new process

984
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,700
where you put on a board. 
It could be physical Board of 

985
00:50:14,700 --> 00:50:17,800
the digital board. 
Three columns, one is your 

986
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:21,000
goals, just a key results, you 
committed to, and generally, for

987
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,300
a team, productive of 10 
Engineers or less. 

988
00:50:23,700 --> 00:50:26,400
I recommend no more than four 
key results for quarter. 

989
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:30,400
Even for is a lot, because teams
just cannot move that much that 

990
00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:33,900
many key results. 
Those could be business, or 

991
00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:38,200
product or user-facing cures on.
Could be also technical or 

992
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:41,200
design key results. 
Mean, if we need to cut down 

993
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:44,200
technical death or close a bug 
backlog, those are very 

994
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:46,500
important goals as well. 
Don't kick them out to side 

995
00:50:46,500 --> 00:50:48,400
because the teams will do them. 
Without you. 

996
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,900
Knowing you need to a very 
conscious decision with your 

997
00:50:51,900 --> 00:50:55,300
other leads, the designer and 
the engineering lid, what's the 

998
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:57,300
ratio? 
And then you create a border 

999
00:50:57,300 --> 00:50:59,300
around that you pick the top 
ideas. 

1000
00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:02,200
You want to start with based on 
ice or whatever method you like 

1001
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:06,000
to use and you put them next to 
it in the ideas, column just the

1002
00:51:06,008 --> 00:51:07,600
once. 
I'm starting to work on right 

1003
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,600
away. 
Then next to those, you put the 

1004
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,800
steps not all steps, just the 
ones you planning to do in the 

1005
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:15,700
next couple of weeks, maybe 
because that part will change a 

1006
00:51:15,707 --> 00:51:17,700
lot. 
The whole board has to be very 

1007
00:51:17,700 --> 00:51:19,600
Dynamic. 
With some ideas might turn out 

1008
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,000
to be better than you, need to 
remove the entire a deer with 

1009
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,400
all its Steps From the board and
put another one. 

1010
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:28,500
Instead some steps complete some
steps need to be redone. 

1011
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:32,200
So it's a very Dynamic thing. 
It's the job of the leads to 

1012
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:35,600
keep managing the ball to keep 
it up to date, but I highly 

1013
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:37,900
recommend meeting. 
With the team at least every 

1014
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:41,100
week or every other week to 
review the board to talk about 

1015
00:51:41,100 --> 00:51:43,500
the next steps. 
And that's a perfect kind of 

1016
00:51:43,500 --> 00:51:48,000
segue into the planification or 
the Sprint planning or whatever 

1017
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,700
cycle planning you're using 
because that brings them a lot 

1018
00:51:51,700 --> 00:51:52,900
of context. 
It reminds them. 

1019
00:51:52,900 --> 00:51:54,500
What are the goals? 
What are you doing? 

1020
00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:56,600
Are we pursuing? 
What are the steps were? 

1021
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,500
Not just coding. 
We're not just trying to push 

1022
00:51:58,500 --> 00:52:01,500
stuff into production. 
Market is done and move on to 

1023
00:52:01,500 --> 00:52:03,700
the next ticket. 
We're actually trying to 

1024
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:07,600
complete an experiment or what 
delivery and That's tied to 

1025
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,700
trying to validate an idea and 
that idea is tied to a gold. 

1026
00:52:10,700 --> 00:52:13,900
So a lot of Engineers, tell me 
this really was missing. 

1027
00:52:13,900 --> 00:52:16,500
Before that, I didn't know I was
working in this vacuum. 

1028
00:52:16,600 --> 00:52:18,800
I didn't know. 
No one actually told me, I 

1029
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:23,100
didn't understand once they 
understand a very nice side 

1030
00:52:23,100 --> 00:52:25,900
benefit that I experienced a lot
in Gmail, is that they don't 

1031
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,500
have to tell them that much. 
They understand what needs to be

1032
00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:29,800
done. 
They come up with much better 

1033
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,000
ideas than you of everything. 
I launched in Google. 

1034
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:36,200
Maybe 60% wasn't my idea at all 
just people were creative and 

1035
00:52:36,400 --> 00:52:39,200
I'm up with much better ideas in
mind, and that's exactly what 

1036
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:40,900
you want to do. 
Because then you have more free 

1037
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:44,500
time to focus on researching the
market, understanding the needs 

1038
00:52:44,500 --> 00:52:47,800
Etc. 
Instead of trying to spoon feed 

1039
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:52,800
people with exact requirements, 
which is enormously tiring, and 

1040
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,500
it doesn't get you what you 
wanted, the end of the day, 

1041
00:52:54,500 --> 00:52:57,800
because no matter how explicit 
your user stories are going to 

1042
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:00,000
be, they're still getting wrong 
if they don't understand the 

1043
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:02,800
context so much more to give 
them the context. 

1044
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,200
So that's how it works. 
And at the end of the day, once 

1045
00:53:06,200 --> 00:53:09,700
you have your Jace board and you
have this column of steps that 

1046
00:53:09,700 --> 00:53:13,900
turns into the backlog that 
feeds into the scrum or kanban 

1047
00:53:14,100 --> 00:53:16,300
process, you just need to 
prioritize it. 

1048
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:18,000
And that's exactly what they 
need. 

1049
00:53:18,300 --> 00:53:22,000
The big change is that maybe 
meets printer will be changes, 

1050
00:53:22,300 --> 00:53:25,000
maybe meet Sprint, we will 
realize this steps, we thought 

1051
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,100
were useful or not useful 
because we learned new 

1052
00:53:27,100 --> 00:53:29,000
information, we need to scrap 
this plan. 

1053
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:34,000
So for teams that are very, very
strict about Planning the entire

1054
00:53:34,000 --> 00:53:37,300
scope and estimating it and not 
willing to change. 

1055
00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:40,000
This could be a problem. 
You can either do shorter 

1056
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:43,000
Sprints, all you need to 
challenge this assumption that 

1057
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,500
this is actually a good thing is
really helping I would argue 

1058
00:53:46,500 --> 00:53:49,300
that being willing to change. 
The scope of the Sprint is 

1059
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:53,400
really true to the nature of AJ 
but I'm not the developer here 

1060
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:55,900
so it's easy for me to make this
statement. 

1061
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:58,500
Another you had a product 
manager because sometimes 

1062
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:00,900
product manager wants to change 
agenda as well. 

1063
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:04,300
So I think that many people 
refuse To do this in the middle 

1064
00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:05,700
of spring or whatever that is 
right. 

1065
00:54:05,700 --> 00:54:09,000
But I think the true, a gel will
cater for that, either dropping 

1066
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:11,900
the previous ones or looking at 
the capacity, whether they still

1067
00:54:11,900 --> 00:54:13,700
can do it and they will 
accommodate that. 

1068
00:54:13,700 --> 00:54:16,100
If let's say, there's a good 
impact is good, business 

1069
00:54:16,100 --> 00:54:18,200
outcome, right? 
So thanks for reminding that. 

1070
00:54:18,300 --> 00:54:20,900
And I think hearing what you 
explained about, G-spot, it 

1071
00:54:20,900 --> 00:54:23,600
seems like a very powerful 
technique, very interesting. 

1072
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,100
Because yes, I can see it all so
many development teams, they 

1073
00:54:26,107 --> 00:54:27,900
don't understand the big choir, 
right? 

1074
00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:30,900
The goals why they're doing 
certain does for example, if 

1075
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:33,900
even if you add a A button, 
right? 

1076
00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:36,500
Sometimes we don't know how this
will trickle down to the company

1077
00:54:36,500 --> 00:54:38,500
goals. 
So thanks for explaining that as

1078
00:54:38,500 --> 00:54:40,300
well. 
Yeah it'll mark thank you for 

1079
00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:42,700
this elaborate explanation about
this. 

1080
00:54:42,700 --> 00:54:45,500
I really learned a lot and I'm 
sure many listeners here would 

1081
00:54:45,500 --> 00:54:48,900
also learn from your sharing 
about just unfortunately, we 

1082
00:54:48,900 --> 00:54:51,700
have to wrap up the conversation
because of the time. 

1083
00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:54,600
But I have one last question 
that I always ask from all my 

1084
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,900
guests, which is to share, what 
I call three technical 

1085
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:59,100
leadership is them. 
I guess for your case you can 

1086
00:54:59,100 --> 00:55:01,800
also do a tree product 
leadership is them, I'll leave 

1087
00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:04,800
it up to you which one that you 
Want to do, but can you share, 

1088
00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:06,700
maybe some wisdom for us to 
learn from you? 

1089
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:11,100
All right, so tip number one is 
to recognize what type of 

1090
00:55:11,100 --> 00:55:14,100
company you work for. 
And adjust your expectations and

1091
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:18,000
your model for operations 
accordingly, multi Kagan gave a 

1092
00:55:18,008 --> 00:55:21,600
really good kind of dichotomy of
company types of the ones that 

1093
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:24,900
you treat product organization 
which they often call, it is a 

1094
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:27,700
delivery organizations, you work
in a delivery tear, you 

1095
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:30,700
basically there to do whatever 
the business tells you to do. 

1096
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,000
They don't trust you at all to 
have your own. 

1097
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:35,600
Onions or to know what needs to 
be done. 

1098
00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:38,200
Maybe that works for some types 
of people. 

1099
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,700
Incidentally, these 
organizations tend to be the 

1100
00:55:40,700 --> 00:55:43,800
strictest Embraces of This 
heavyweight scrum, and safe. 

1101
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:46,900
It said rather know why, maybe 
because the liver is the name of

1102
00:55:46,900 --> 00:55:49,600
the game and those like scrum 
today's. 

1103
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:52,700
So targeted at delivery. 
If you are working in such an 

1104
00:55:52,700 --> 00:55:57,200
organization, a lot of what I 
just described doesn't apply to 

1105
00:55:57,200 --> 00:55:58,400
you. 
It will not fly. 

1106
00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:02,800
Don't expect your organization 
to actually be able to mutate. 

1107
00:56:03,100 --> 00:56:05,800
Into this much more modern 
thinking type of organization. 

1108
00:56:05,800 --> 00:56:09,300
I don't want to be critical. 
Maybe this model is working for 

1109
00:56:09,300 --> 00:56:12,600
certain types of Industries or 
certain types of products as so 

1110
00:56:12,600 --> 00:56:14,000
you will be endlessly 
frustrated. 

1111
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:17,100
If you expect them to, you 
should understand the rules of 

1112
00:56:17,100 --> 00:56:21,900
the game and within this very 
limited confines, try to be more

1113
00:56:21,900 --> 00:56:26,300
creative or more evidence guided
the second type of team that the

1114
00:56:26,300 --> 00:56:29,400
market equation describes the 
feature team, which is basically

1115
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,500
a feature Factory. 
There's a lot of more autonomy 

1116
00:56:31,500 --> 00:56:34,600
to decide how to implement. 
The feature, what to do inside a

1117
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:37,500
trust you on this and maybe you 
invent the features too. 

1118
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:41,100
It's basically still very output
focus is like launch feature. 

1119
00:56:41,100 --> 00:56:43,300
After feature of the feature, 
you don't challenge the feature 

1120
00:56:43,300 --> 00:56:45,700
so much in the middle. 
You don't do a lot of Discovery 

1121
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,200
basically, just decide through 
some sort of protestations 

1122
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,700
scheme, what to build and then 
you build it. 

1123
00:56:51,900 --> 00:56:55,600
And there there's a strict focus
on road maps. 

1124
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,600
And a lot of time is spent on 
planning, that's one of the Key 

1125
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,700
signs. 
I think there is a huge 

1126
00:57:01,700 --> 00:57:05,700
potential for improvement. 
Moving from feature to product 

1127
00:57:05,700 --> 00:57:08,100
in a sense, this is really the 
potential. 

1128
00:57:08,500 --> 00:57:11,900
So you really need to understand
whether or not your company is 

1129
00:57:11,900 --> 00:57:15,300
ripe and ready to actually make 
this transition. 

1130
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,300
If you can find allies and then 
you can start bringing some of 

1131
00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:22,500
these techniques. 
The third type is a product 

1132
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:25,900
organization where they actually
understand the importance of 

1133
00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:28,700
outcomes overall output. 
They understand the importance 

1134
00:57:28,700 --> 00:57:31,700
of Discovery and they do it to 
some level and there. 

1135
00:57:32,100 --> 00:57:35,200
No. 
It is actually 100% pure and 

1136
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:38,600
doing it correctly and not 
opinionated and none of this. 

1137
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,400
It's impossible and maybe we 
shouldn't strive to be in this 

1138
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,700
situation. 
But there you can find a lot of 

1139
00:57:45,700 --> 00:57:48,900
places where you feel, there's 
still a lot of pain is still a 

1140
00:57:48,900 --> 00:57:52,100
lot of ways being created and 
try to fix those things. 

1141
00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:55,700
Move the organization to a 
slightly better place and think 

1142
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,400
just applies to these last two 
groups. 

1143
00:57:58,500 --> 00:58:01,700
So Jason and everything. 
Of course, it's part of a much 

1144
00:58:01,700 --> 00:58:05,800
larger ecosystem of Failure. 
So recognize where you are, what

1145
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,600
kind of organization, how much 
willingness they have to adopt 

1146
00:58:08,600 --> 00:58:11,800
this new things and adjust your 
expectations in your room work 

1147
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:15,400
plan accordingly, if you are 
want to be this change agent, of

1148
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:19,100
course. 
Recommendation, number two is on

1149
00:58:19,100 --> 00:58:21,500
your Voyage, to try to change 
things. 

1150
00:58:21,500 --> 00:58:24,200
Use evidence a lot. 
Here's the thing I discovered, 

1151
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,200
if you go to a battle of 
opinions with a person who is 

1152
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:30,500
more influential than you or 
more senior, you will almost 

1153
00:58:30,500 --> 00:58:34,000
always lose on principle, no 
matter how good your rationale 

1154
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:36,600
or opinions are. 
If you come to that stem 

1155
00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:40,000
discussion with evidence, like 
that person will say, you know, 

1156
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,100
what's the best thing in the 
world. 

1157
00:58:41,100 --> 00:58:44,700
We need to build this nft or 
this scenario, machine learning 

1158
00:58:44,700 --> 00:58:47,600
thing, and it would say no, you 
No, we just did this 

1159
00:58:47,600 --> 00:58:50,900
longitudinal study and that 
shows that people really want 

1160
00:58:50,900 --> 00:58:54,700
and analytics dashboard. 
Look at the data, that's our 

1161
00:58:54,700 --> 00:58:57,100
Mall, interesting discussion, 
you might get more positive 

1162
00:58:57,100 --> 00:58:58,400
results, out of that, they might
say. 

1163
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,000
Okay? 
Yeah, but I want you to test my 

1164
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:02,400
idea, fine. 
You have all these techniques to

1165
00:59:02,400 --> 00:59:05,400
test ideas, that's fine. 
But at least they're giving you 

1166
00:59:05,400 --> 00:59:07,400
the wrong to talk at their 
level. 

1167
00:59:07,500 --> 00:59:10,100
It's not just instructing you to
follow their idea. 

1168
00:59:10,700 --> 00:59:12,500
So evidence is such a powerful 
thing. 

1169
00:59:12,500 --> 00:59:17,100
I've seen very authoritative CEO
that used to come to Development

1170
00:59:17,100 --> 00:59:19,300
teams to tell them build this 
build the other. 

1171
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,500
I just told them a few 
techniques and then the junior 

1172
00:59:22,500 --> 00:59:25,800
p.m. came and changed the CEO 
and said, You know, here is a 

1173
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,000
business model canvas that shows
the two latest idea will not 

1174
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,100
work and the CEO was very 
pleased. 

1175
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,300
It's saved the company. 
A lot of money, they didn't need

1176
00:59:33,300 --> 00:59:37,200
to pursue another wild idea, 
just to discover months or years

1177
00:59:37,200 --> 00:59:39,900
later, it doesn't work. 
So everything is such a powerful

1178
00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:44,300
thing, don't over estimate, 
don't expect it to be magical. 

1179
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,200
Some people still are very 
opinionated. 

1180
00:59:46,300 --> 00:59:49,300
Dated but learn to use it and 
the confidence meter. 

1181
00:59:49,300 --> 00:59:51,500
That's why it's so popular 
because a lot of people were 

1182
00:59:51,500 --> 00:59:54,500
looking for such a tool to have 
in the back of their pocket. 

1183
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,500
When people try to push their 
ideas to show them, that that's 

1184
00:59:58,500 --> 01:00:02,100
based on really weak evidence 
and we shouldn't have that much 

1185
01:00:02,100 --> 01:00:04,400
confidence as they are 
expressing right now. 

1186
01:00:04,900 --> 01:00:08,400
Tip number three is to learn to 
let go. 

1187
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,600
I had a challenge as a product 
manager for very long time. 

1188
01:00:11,600 --> 01:00:15,000
I felt tremendous responsibility
over the success of the product.

1189
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:18,600
And I wanted to in Trucks, 
everyone exactly what to do and 

1190
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,700
how to do it and that include 
designers and Engineers. 

1191
01:00:21,700 --> 01:00:24,900
I wanted it to be at a very high
level based on my kind of 

1192
01:00:24,900 --> 01:00:27,200
criteria and that doesn't work 
very well. 

1193
01:00:27,200 --> 01:00:30,700
They don't like you first off 
for doing that and second, it's 

1194
01:00:30,700 --> 01:00:32,800
not the right way to do because 
they're the experts in their 

1195
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:36,400
area of expertise. 
So part of the reasons I could 

1196
01:00:36,400 --> 01:00:39,200
opt to Jesus because that 
enabled us to have a much more 

1197
01:00:39,200 --> 01:00:43,600
kind of balanced discussion. 
And part of the problem is that 

1198
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:46,100
a lot of the responsibility does
lay on the shoulder. 

1199
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:48,800
As of the PM's. 
I mean, if you're an engineer 

1200
01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:51,900
and most companies, If the 
product idea, felt that's not 

1201
01:00:51,900 --> 01:00:53,400
your fault, you deliver the 
code. 

1202
01:00:53,600 --> 01:00:55,900
Look at the product manager made
a mistake, right? 

1203
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:59,000
So change the Dynamics and said,
no, it's our Collective 

1204
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:00,700
responsibility to meet the 
goals. 

1205
01:01:01,100 --> 01:01:04,400
If one of us fails all of us 
first and then it's much easier 

1206
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,100
for you to also delegate to them
decisions because they're 

1207
01:01:07,100 --> 01:01:10,300
optimizing for the same thing. 
As you do, not optimizing just 

1208
01:01:10,300 --> 01:01:14,000
for code quality or just for 
implementation scrum proper, 

1209
01:01:14,000 --> 01:01:17,500
they're optimizing it to achieve
the The goals of the team goals,

1210
01:01:18,000 --> 01:01:20,200
it's much easier to let go with 
this model. 

1211
01:01:20,600 --> 01:01:24,200
Also, you need to realize what 
your personality type is. 

1212
01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,600
I am a bit of a control freak, 
but still, it really helped me 

1213
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:31,100
when things went this way. 
So, these are my three tips, 

1214
01:01:31,300 --> 01:01:34,700
recognize the type of company 
you work for and adjust to it. 

1215
01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,100
Use evidence where you can and 
learn to let go learn to let 

1216
01:01:39,100 --> 01:01:42,400
your team members guide, some of
the decisions. 

1217
01:01:43,200 --> 01:01:45,000
Right? 
I guess they're letting Go part 

1218
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,500
also applies, not just Our 
product manager for every roles 

1219
01:01:48,500 --> 01:01:51,800
engineers in testers, whatever 
that is, I think we always can 

1220
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:53,600
use some kind of a letting go, 
right? 

1221
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,600
So that we don't use ego and 
pursue our ideas, mostly but 

1222
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,600
also listen and contribute with 
others. 

1223
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:03,300
Thanks for sharing that wisdom. 
So it dominate people love your 

1224
01:02:03,300 --> 01:02:05,000
juice framework. 
They want to learn more. 

1225
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,300
They want to connect with you. 
Is there a place where they can 

1226
01:02:07,300 --> 01:02:09,800
find you online? 
Yeah, there's a couple things. 

1227
01:02:09,800 --> 01:02:12,300
I suggest one is go to eat 
tomorrow. 

1228
01:02:12,300 --> 01:02:17,000
Gilad to Chrome / resources and 
then you'll Find all of these 

1229
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:18,900
things. 
Some of them as downloadable 

1230
01:02:19,000 --> 01:02:22,500
template, some of them as 
stocks, some of them are just 

1231
01:02:22,500 --> 01:02:25,700
links to articles, all of my 
stuff is online, it's very well 

1232
01:02:25,700 --> 01:02:27,800
to share. 
Then you can start using it. 

1233
01:02:27,800 --> 01:02:30,200
The juice board template, for 
example, is there, the 

1234
01:02:30,207 --> 01:02:32,900
confidence meter is there. 
Also the spreadsheet. 

1235
01:02:33,100 --> 01:02:36,900
The other thing is I regularly 
share, new tools, and new of 

1236
01:02:36,900 --> 01:02:40,000
things and your insights, with 
the people who follow me on my 

1237
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:42,600
newsletter. 
So I suggest just subscribing, 

1238
01:02:42,600 --> 01:02:46,400
etymology live.com, / 
newsletter, I assume you We'll 

1239
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,100
be putting these two links in 
the description suddenly. 

1240
01:02:50,100 --> 01:02:51,700
I will put that in the show 
notes as well. 

1241
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,100
So, thank you so much itamar for
this crash course about dies and

1242
01:02:55,100 --> 01:02:58,300
product management. 
Thank you for sharing my 

1243
01:02:58,300 --> 01:02:59,900
pleasure and thank you for 
inviting me. 

1244
01:02:59,900 --> 01:03:02,300
And I hope this will be useful 
for the listeners. 

1245
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:08,200
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying, right 

1246
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,700
until the end if you highly 
enjoyed it. 

1247
01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:13,200
I would appreciate if you share 
it with your friends and 

1248
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:16,200
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1249
01:03:16,200 --> 01:03:18,200
this episode. 
And if you are new to the 

1250
01:03:18,200 --> 01:03:21,300
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1251
01:03:21,300 --> 01:03:24,300
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot in order to 

1252
01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:27,500
grow this podcast better. 
You can also find the full show 

1253
01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:30,700
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page, at Tech, 

1254
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:34,000
Legion of death website, 
including the full transcript 

1255
01:03:34,100 --> 01:03:36,600
interesting. 
It's and links to the resources 

1256
01:03:36,600 --> 01:03:38,500
mentioned, from the 
conversation. 

1257
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:41,900
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1258
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:45,700
list on pack leader dot f to get
notified for any future 

1259
01:03:45,700 --> 01:03:48,000
episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1260
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:49,400
technology. 
No episode. 

1261
01:03:49,700 --> 01:03:51,300
And until then goodbye.