1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:07,160 The number one result of a really good lead is reduce 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:13,600 technical debt, seeing technical debt just melt away and then 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,840 stop occurring in the future. If you're a good lead, your 4 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,560 systems will be stable all the time. 5 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:31,720 Hey everyone, my name is Henry Surya Virawan and you're 6 00:00:31,720 --> 00:00:34,200 listening to the Technically Journal podcast. 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,640 The Show Where I'll Be. Bringing you the greatest 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,200 technical leaders, practitioners and thought leaders in the 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,640 industry to discuss about their journey, ideas and practices 10 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,320 that we all can learn and apply to build a highly performing 11 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,840 technical team and to make an impact in your personal work. 12 00:00:52,520 --> 00:01:00,560 So let's dive into our journal. So Shelly, in the beginning I'd 13 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,080 like to ask you probably if you can share a little bit about 14 00:01:03,080 --> 00:01:05,920 your career journey, especially the highlights or turning points 15 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:07,400 that you think we all can learn from. 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:09,120 Sure. Yeah. 17 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:15,240 So I have been in tech now for 25 years and my journey, you 18 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:23,160 know, started as like a junior dev to senior and then lead. 19 00:01:23,280 --> 00:01:30,320 And I think that my career journey is interesting because 20 00:01:30,320 --> 00:01:37,200 I've also had experience as an author now and a trainer 21 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:42,600 instructor. I have 20, so like Pluralsight 22 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:47,280 courses. I have courses on Udemy and in 23 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,800 about a couple weeks, probably by the time this is out, it'll 24 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,280 already be out. But now I'm a LinkedIn 25 00:01:54,360 --> 00:01:59,600 instructor as well. So I've had a lot of interesting 26 00:01:59,920 --> 00:02:04,080 experiences, but I think my hardest journey was in 27 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:11,400 leadership, trying to learn how to transfer technical skills and 28 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,840 then learn soft skills and then lead people. 29 00:02:14,920 --> 00:02:18,840 That's very difficult for people that are technical, so that's 30 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,320 why I'm here today. Wow, you have so many courses 31 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,320 out there. So maybe a little bit of tips 32 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:27,360 and tricks for people who would like to also build their online 33 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,400 courses. I know it's like very trendy 34 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,960 these days after Pandemic especially, so maybe some tips 35 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:35,000 from you. Sure, yeah. 36 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,040 Oh, people ask me this all the time. 37 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:43,360 First of all, when you write courses, keep in mind your 38 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:47,280 audience. Generally when I write a course, 39 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:51,920 I have had that same problem previously, right? 40 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,360 I always teach stuff that I struggled with that makes the 41 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,920 best content overall. And with online courses 42 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,840 especially, the production quality really matters because 43 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:11,480 people expect high quality now, even on YouTube. 44 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,840 Any platform. And when you're writing code and 45 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,840 you're walking people through code and teaching it, increase 46 00:03:18,840 --> 00:03:22,960 your font size, make it like 18 OK, because people are watching 47 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:27,880 this on their phones. So yeah, like I can't read 10 48 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,240 point font on my phone very well. 49 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,800 I don't know about you, but. Yeah. 50 00:03:33,800 --> 00:03:36,920 So neither do I, but I think those are really good tips, 51 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:38,920 right. So teaching what you struggled 52 00:03:38,920 --> 00:03:41,560 before, right. And also keep in mind about your 53 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:43,360 audience. And I think, yeah, production 54 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:46,320 quality these days do matter, especially with all this like 55 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,640 Mr. BS production and all these great, great content creators 56 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:52,560 out there. So I think we are competing 57 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,000 against them as well. Hey, thank you for being part of 58 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:59,360 the Techly Journal community. This show wouldn't be the same 59 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,680 without your ears, and you are the reason. 60 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,400 This show exists. If you're loving TLJ and want to 61 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,640 see it keep on growing, consider becoming a patron at 62 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,600 techligional dot dev patron or buying me a coffee at 63 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,880 techligional dot dev. Coffee. 64 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:17,959 Every little bit helps field the research. 65 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,320 Editing and sleepless nights that go into making this show 66 00:04:21,360 --> 00:04:24,240 the best it can be. Thanks for being the best, 67 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,400 listeners, any. Podcast could ask for. 68 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,760 And now? Let's get back to our episode. 69 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,000 So let's move on to the main topic today, Which is your book, 70 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:33,360 right? Which is you're still currently 71 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,480 writing with Manning Early Access program, so lead 72 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,000 developer, career guide. So in the beginning you 73 00:04:39,000 --> 00:04:41,360 mentioned that you also struggled a little bit about 74 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,600 leadership, you know, learning about soft skills. 75 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,920 But in the beginning, right? Tell us what made you wanted to 76 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,640 write this book? Yeah. 77 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:51,600 So I guess this whole thing started. 78 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:58,440 I pitched it in October 2022, so it's been a little over a year. 79 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,400 It takes a long time to write a book, by the way, but I was 80 00:05:01,400 --> 00:05:05,560 really inspired by Alyssa Miller. 81 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:13,360 She has a guide on Infosec and I saw it and I was like infosec 82 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:17,920 career guide, like there should be one for lead developers 83 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:23,880 because we're not managers and we're not the person who is 84 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:29,240 hiring people, right? So it's this kind of step up 85 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:34,240 from technical to leadership, but not like all the way. 86 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:37,720 So you still have to do technical stuff, but then you 87 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,360 still you have to learn leadership as well. 88 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:47,360 And it's really, really hard. Most people like me who excel at 89 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,280 technical stuff are sort of just thrown into this role with no 90 00:05:52,280 --> 00:05:56,080 mentor, no guide, no nothing to like learn leadership skills, 91 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,000 how to run meetings, how to interface with clients. 92 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:03,800 That was the hardest part for me was being the face of the 93 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:08,440 development team to the clients and being trusted to make 94 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:13,520 decisions, you know, And it was just very overwhelming at 1st. 95 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,640 And as I said, if I struggle with anything, I'll teach it 96 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,360 after I figure out, like, how to do it properly. 97 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,520 Yeah, because I don't want anybody to struggle as I have. 98 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,040 Right. I think most of the engineers 99 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,840 when they studied computer science or software engineering 100 00:06:31,840 --> 00:06:34,200 right? I think most of them were not 101 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,520 taught about leadership or even soft skills. 102 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,760 Like great soft skills, right? We all have to self learn 103 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:42,520 through books and also painful experiences, you know, having to 104 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:44,680 deal with stakeholders and clients just like what you 105 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,560 mentioned, right? Like I mentioned, there are so 106 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,920 many different flavours of lead developer title, right? 107 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:52,840 So what are some of the other flavours in the industry that 108 00:06:52,840 --> 00:06:56,080 you know of so that people maybe can set the same same level of 109 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:57,840 understanding? Yeah. 110 00:06:57,840 --> 00:07:02,280 So the multiple flavours, I think it comes from company 111 00:07:02,280 --> 00:07:07,840 cultures and kind of each company's approach to tech 112 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,600 overall. I've heard lead architect, so 113 00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,920 there are some overlapping skills there. 114 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:21,560 But the main thing is that if your company has a lead 115 00:07:21,560 --> 00:07:25,600 architect, that position is more technical. 116 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:30,760 It's more like you're in charge of the architecture, right, 117 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:35,760 architect architecture. So you're making diagrams and 118 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,760 flow charts and, you know, stuff like that. 119 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:46,520 Whereas a lead dev is more the person that has to be talking to 120 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:50,760 the project managers, the clients, the actual team to 121 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:57,440 relay all of this information, make decisions and be trusted 122 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,080 with that process. Yeah. 123 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:02,800 And then there's kind of like a tech lead. 124 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,240 Tech lead, I feel like is more in line with lead architect, but 125 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:12,920 like I've seen so many companies approach things completely 126 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:17,160 differently, right? So Tech lead, Architect, lead 127 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:22,640 dev, they're all similar, right? But they just have some key 128 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,520 differences. I hope that answered your 129 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,880 question. That's pretty abstract. 130 00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:30,760 And I think it confuses a lot more by you know, going into 131 00:08:30,760 --> 00:08:34,360 specific industry or big tech versus you know traditional 132 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,919 companies, right. But I think we mentioned a few 133 00:08:36,919 --> 00:08:40,080 titles already, right. Hopefully people at least have 134 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:41,679 the same level of understanding, OK. 135 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,280 We are talking about this kind of role. 136 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:46,480 Then you mentioned that this role specifically right is 137 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,400 expected not just be good at tech, which is probably in the 138 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,040 beginning, they are really really good in tech, but also 139 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:54,760 they have to exercise their leadership skills. 140 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,960 So tell us why this leadership skills is also becoming equally 141 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,520 important in this role? Yeah, absolutely. 142 00:09:03,680 --> 00:09:08,400 Leadership skills in general, they are kind of important for 143 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,560 everyone actually. But for this role particularly, 144 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:19,800 it's just so hard to learn while you're trying to also be 145 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:24,920 technical at the same time. But these skills like holding 146 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:31,320 meetings, outlining approaches, you know, just talking to 147 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:34,680 people, talking to stakeholders, interfacing with humans is what 148 00:09:34,680 --> 00:09:39,960 I like to call it. A lot of us, me especially, are 149 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:44,280 people that like to not talk to humans all day, right? 150 00:09:44,560 --> 00:09:48,080 Like we got stuff to do, we've got code to write. 151 00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,040 And me personally, like, I just like quiet time, right? 152 00:09:52,160 --> 00:09:55,840 I just like to be alone and all of that. 153 00:09:55,840 --> 00:10:01,560 So with leadership, it's more like you have to understand how 154 00:10:01,560 --> 00:10:05,200 to resolve conflict, how to assess conflict. 155 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,600 I'll talk a lot about conflict because that was definitely the 156 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:13,080 hardest thing for me to learn. But yeah, you have to be 157 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:17,280 organized. You have to be a mentor. 158 00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:23,320 You have to lead an entire team of projects. 159 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:26,880 Your product, I don't know. There are a lot of different 160 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,560 aspects to it. Wow, you throw so many different 161 00:10:30,560 --> 00:10:32,560 things right? Different responsibilities so to 162 00:10:32,560 --> 00:10:34,240 speak. When you get into this title, I 163 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:35,680 hope people are not scared, right? 164 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,160 But maybe from your experience right? 165 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:39,760 And in your book you also outline this. 166 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:42,800 What are some of the main responsibilities that we should 167 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,200 expect when we deal with lead developer? 168 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,880 Yeah, absolutely lead devs. I think one of the most 169 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:54,440 important responsibilities is mentorship. 170 00:10:54,720 --> 00:11:02,640 You have to be able to help people grow and improve, because 171 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:08,480 without that it's just like people need a guide right? 172 00:11:08,560 --> 00:11:15,280 And like I personally have many mentors, but lead devs I think 173 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:22,360 need to be able to understand dev's problems as well and 174 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:30,160 communicate to project managers and ensure that people aren't 175 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:34,600 over tasked as well. That is a huge one. 176 00:11:34,600 --> 00:11:38,480 Help the project manager, help your team. 177 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:44,600 And then on top of all of that, handling client requests, making 178 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:49,960 sure that when clients and this is something that happens a lot, 179 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,760 that's why I'm smiling. Clients will try to tell you 180 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,160 what to do and how, and they're usually wrong. 181 00:11:58,360 --> 00:11:59,800 They're usually completely wrong. 182 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,960 So you have to find a way to like diplomatically be like. 183 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:10,440 That's a good start, but let me show you this this other way 184 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:14,080 that's actually new and actual best practices without saying 185 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:16,720 that with like an attitude like I just did. 186 00:12:17,440 --> 00:12:18,600 Yeah. Yeah. 187 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:21,480 So for people who may not work with external clients, right, 188 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:23,840 you can also think client as internal clients, I guess, 189 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:25,080 right. So we have business 190 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,200 stakeholders, yeah, we have product managers or whoever in 191 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:30,720 the company. When you build product that you 192 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,920 are given a requirements, sometimes they give you the how 193 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:35,960 as well. But yeah, I think what you said 194 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,280 is right. So the task of the lead 195 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:40,800 developer is to actually help guide these kind of 196 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,480 conversations with them. So you mentioned about 197 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,760 mentoring, right. I think many of these engineers 198 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:49,800 also as they grew in their career, sometimes they have good 199 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,320 mentors, sometimes they didn't have good mentors, right. 200 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:56,760 How can they become confident as a mentor now, now that they 201 00:12:56,760 --> 00:13:01,000 assume this position? Yeah, I love that you brought 202 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,960 that up. Not all mentors are good, and 203 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,160 honestly, having no mentor is better than having a bad one. 204 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:16,200 But to avoid being a terrible mentor, I think we need to keep 205 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,520 in mind that everyone's experiences are their own. 206 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:26,760 My experience and advice wouldn't apply to everyone all 207 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:31,840 the time, so that is why everyone needs to have a group 208 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,760 of mentors. But leads especially need people 209 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:43,200 to help them. Besides my book, you should also 210 00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,040 just talk to people. Ask for help because that is 211 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,240 something I did not do and that is why it's in my book. 212 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:55,640 I'm sorry if I didn't answer your original question, I think 213 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,720 I went off on a tangent. No problem, right. 214 00:13:59,960 --> 00:14:03,280 So yeah, I think like having bad Mantas sometimes, sometimes it 215 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,280 can give you the reverse effect as well, right. 216 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:09,040 So you know that that was bad. So that is probably will avoid 217 00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:10,920 it. Yeah, you will avoid it in your 218 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,000 next maybe experience, right, when you mentor people. 219 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:17,280 But I think yeah, bad mentorship sometimes can leave a lasting 220 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:20,520 effect, sometimes that person also may not want to go to 221 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,440 management or leadership because of that. 222 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,800 So I think another thing that as with all these kind of role that 223 00:14:26,800 --> 00:14:30,520 has multi dimensional kind of a task and responsibilities, 224 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:34,040 right, Sometimes it feels very difficult to gauge how 225 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:35,960 successful we are in that role, right. 226 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,080 Some people will think or I just go into different meetings, 227 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:41,000 communicate with a bunch of people. 228 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:43,400 You know, maybe write a bit docs here and there, write a little 229 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,120 bit code here and there, but I don't seem to kind of like 230 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:49,880 finish something end to end. So how do you actually measure 231 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:52,880 for, you know, someone who is successful in this role, the 232 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:54,960 developer role? Yeah. 233 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:03,520 First of all, I mean, hopefully your job has reviews and will 234 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,880 actually tell you if you're doing well. 235 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:09,000 However, that is not always the case. 236 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:15,080 I would say that honestly, the number one result of a really 237 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:23,240 good lead is reduce technical debt, seeing technical debt just 238 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:28,320 melt away and then stop occurring in the future because 239 00:15:28,320 --> 00:15:35,640 the person is making the correct decisions so that the tasks are 240 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:40,160 performed just the one dime instead of, you know, oopsie, 241 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:44,280 this task isn't exactly correct. We're going to push this code 242 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:49,320 anyway and then fix this resulting bug later, right? 243 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:54,040 If you have a clean code base and you know what you're doing, 244 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,800 and you make the right decisions and you do the maintenance, do 245 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:02,880 the system maintenance, you know, Oh my God, I my #1 pet 246 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,720 peeve is when people don't do maintenance, things break and 247 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,520 they fix them and they think that that's an OK procedure, 248 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:15,880 Things should never break. If you're a good lead, your 249 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:18,600 systems will be stable all the time. 250 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,520 That's really a great point because as we build a lot more 251 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:24,920 features, right, technical depth definitely pile up. 252 00:16:25,000 --> 00:16:28,160 As you add more people normally also we'll have more technical 253 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:31,440 depth and I think some people might also have this kind of 254 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,240 impression that if everything goes well right, sometimes you 255 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,680 are not appreciated. So what do you think about this 256 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:42,160 kind of mindset? Oh goodness, I love this topic. 257 00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,440 When you're not appreciated, Oh, that is the worst. 258 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,560 That kills your motivation, right? 259 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:56,360 So I would hope that you would be appreciated by your team at 260 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,880 the very least. In my experience, generally it 261 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:06,280 is leadership that kind of fails you in that instance, but that 262 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:09,359 is really, really hard. Generally, if I'm not 263 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:12,720 appreciated by leadership, I leave and I just find another 264 00:17:12,720 --> 00:17:16,599 job, which is why I have unfortunately had like 27 jobs 265 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,480 now I've I've had more than that. 266 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:25,079 But yeah, it's so hard to feel unappreciated. 267 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:31,920 It makes you want to just not show up and to be complacent and 268 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,360 all of that. But I am here to tell you you do 269 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:39,840 not have to stay at a job that doesn't appreciate you. 270 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:41,760 There are lots of jobs out there. 271 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:46,200 Yes, the market is very tough right now, but trust me, like 272 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,760 there are better jobs out there. You deserve the best. 273 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:51,720 Right. Thanks for bringing up that 274 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:52,320 point. Right. 275 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,720 Because I agree with that because if you're not fully 276 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,360 appreciated and it is prolongs for a long time, right, I guess 277 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:02,440 it's pretty miserable. You also want to feel fulfilled, 278 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:03,920 right? Doing your job that you love, 279 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,240 but at the same time also appreciate it, right, as a 280 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:08,560 result of that. So I think yeah, probably it's 281 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,520 time to take some other jobs if you feel you are stuck in this 282 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,280 kind of a role at the moment. So for people who are listening 283 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:17,520 to this, probably they are not there yet, right. 284 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,800 In your book you mentioned about the career trajectory someone 285 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:23,480 might take in order to get into this path. 286 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:26,120 So maybe if we can outline a little bit like how do you 287 00:18:26,120 --> 00:18:29,280 actually start in your career until you get to this position, 288 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,320 what kind of a milestones or kind of like checklist probably 289 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,600 that we can aim to be a good bit developer? 290 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:42,880 Yeah, so kind of the standard path is the dev path, right? 291 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:48,400 So junior, mid and then senior lead, right? 292 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,680 My path was actually different. My path was really interesting. 293 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:59,840 I was a dev first, then a trainer, then a training 294 00:18:59,840 --> 00:19:06,120 manager, then a lead developer. So there are different ways to 295 00:19:06,120 --> 00:19:10,240 learn all of these skills, but I'll tell you, I do wish that I 296 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,680 had been a lead developer before I was a manager. 297 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:18,960 Because as a manager I was hiring and firing people. 298 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,160 And so it would have been a lot easier if I had kind of eased. 299 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,880 If I had done the lead developer thing first where I was a leader 300 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:30,720 and I was learning leadership skills, but I didn't have to 301 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,360 like interview or hire and fire people because that was just 302 00:19:34,360 --> 00:19:37,880 awful. So apart from the normal career 303 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,840 path, right? If you're an engineer, you know 304 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,120 you start from junior media, maybe some people call it right, 305 00:19:43,120 --> 00:19:45,360 meet developers, senior developers. 306 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:47,920 Sometimes you also went through like yourself, right? 307 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:49,160 You went through different route. 308 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:52,160 How about if maybe they have different speciality, right? 309 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,920 Is it purely because in some people's mind the perspective is 310 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,880 like mostly developer comes from the back end engineering point 311 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:01,640 of view, right? What about front end? 312 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,760 What about test engineer you know? 313 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,000 What about mobile developer? Can they also become the 314 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,440 developer? Absolutely, yeah. 315 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:13,120 I actually had a job recently where it was the first job that 316 00:20:13,120 --> 00:20:17,440 I ever had where they had a lead front end developer and I was 317 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,640 like, thank you, thank you because I don't know anything 318 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,760 about front end development, front end and back end. 319 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,800 They are completely different. The processes, the procedures, 320 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:33,000 all of that. So I asked them for a really 321 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,600 long time. I was like, can I just get a 322 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,480 lead front end on this project? Because I don't know what I'm 323 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,920 doing and I need help. And they did it. 324 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:46,360 It was the best. I've never worked anywhere that 325 00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:48,720 did that. And I don't know why. 326 00:20:48,800 --> 00:20:53,080 Because like I said, front end is completely different and it's 327 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,920 really grown a whole lot because when I started in tech, there 328 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:02,640 was no front end. There was no, you know, it was 329 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,240 all just the dev. I was the designer. 330 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,440 I was the back end. Front end, yeah, just 331 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,160 everything. I'm so glad that they split it 332 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:16,920 up into different specialties, yeah. 333 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:18,760 Yeah. And these days there are so many 334 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:20,960 different technologies for each stream, right? 335 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,680 Like, you know, you have mobile front and back and all have 336 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:26,160 their own permutations of technologies, libraries and all 337 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:28,120 that. I'm sure it's pretty hard to 338 00:21:28,120 --> 00:21:31,000 catch up, right. The industry has moved along so 339 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,440 much, I think compared to our time back then. 340 00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:37,120 So last time I also had to do a lot of all these full stack 341 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,160 engineer, right. But I think it's pretty hard to 342 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,720 be full stack these days with a lot of these technologies. 343 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,520 Absolutely. Another thing is like when you 344 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,640 actually are given this opportunity, right, sometimes 345 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,680 you are hesitant, you're not confident. 346 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:52,200 How can you assess that you are ready for this, right? 347 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:55,240 Is there any kind of a science or is there any kind of 348 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,400 checklist again that we need to think and consider about before 349 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:05,160 we agree and assume this role? Yeah, I love that you ask this 350 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,360 question because I'm actually writing this chapter right now. 351 00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:15,600 And overall, I mean, when do you ever know that you're ready for 352 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,280 anything? Parents will tell you this, like 353 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:22,160 no one's ready to get pregnant or have a baby, right? 354 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:26,320 Like, it just happens. You just kind of toss yourself 355 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,160 into the deep end and see what happens. 356 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:34,680 But with this particularly, I mean I think that people will 357 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:41,080 signal you for me specifically, like I was told kind of early on 358 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:49,080 that I had leadership qualities and so overtime I just learned 359 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,440 more. And for me, the moment that I 360 00:22:52,440 --> 00:23:00,560 knew that I could manage A-Team was really when I was holding 361 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:08,600 meetings and just organizing agendas and speaking publicly 362 00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:13,480 and just trying to keep everything organized. 363 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:17,280 Like you definitely have to be organized, but I think all of us 364 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:21,160 are, we're devs. I think devs in general have to 365 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,760 be organized to keep our code clean. 366 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:26,720 But yeah, I think that's pretty much it. 367 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:28,520 Yeah. It's a fairpoint, right. 368 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,480 I think like in any kind of roles, especially if I step up 369 00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,400 right, you'll never feel ready, right. 370 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,560 So I think for those who are still thinking, OK, what kind of 371 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,000 things you need to consume or maybe prepare, right? 372 00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:42,560 So sometimes it's just a leap of faith, right? 373 00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,280 And you mentioned about signals from others, so it could be your 374 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:46,960 managers, it could be your Manders, right. 375 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:49,680 I think that provides some kind of cue that probably you should 376 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:54,080 be more confident in assuming you will succeed in this role as 377 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:55,920 well. So that's I think a very, very 378 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,240 valid point, right? Don't try to be ready. 379 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,160 So sometimes even like people say, when you feel you're ready, 380 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,080 you're too late, right? So I think we all. 381 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,480 Don't. That's exactly right. 382 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:05,920 Yes. Oh, I love that. 383 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,560 If you feel like you're ready, you're already too late. 384 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:10,040 I'm totally going to write that down. 385 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:12,560 That was a great quote. All right. 386 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,200 So you mentioned in the beginning about the leadership 387 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,680 skills, right. So maybe tell us what kind of 388 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,320 leadership skills that we need to think about because 389 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,920 leadership is a wide range kind of thing, right? 390 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:26,560 You mentioned about leadership styles in your book as well, 391 00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,040 maybe a little bit of both, so that people can learn what kind 392 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,080 of leadership that is important for this role. 393 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:36,080 Sure. There are a lot of leadership 394 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,840 styles. I talk about 10 in my book. 395 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:44,960 So there's like autocratic, democratic, transformational, 396 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,720 transactional, servant, visionary, coaching, laissez 397 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,560 faire, affirmative and commanding. 398 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:59,920 So all of these approaches have been around for a really long 399 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:02,960 time. So the one that you want to stay 400 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:06,840 away from is commanding. Commanding is great in the 401 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:08,640 military. And that's all. 402 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,280 You can't be a commander of a dev team. 403 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:19,720 People need support and not pushing down to like push them 404 00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,760 to work harder or faster or whatever. 405 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:29,880 So my style, like I have a combination of a lot of them. 406 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:35,800 But I guess for me, my overall approach is coaching, coaching 407 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:41,080 and servant. So I am not in charge, right? 408 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:48,200 Like I am helping teams to provide quality products. 409 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:57,320 I am not there to make anyone feel inadequate or slow or 410 00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,920 anything like that. If anybody has performance 411 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,880 issues, that reflects on me as well. 412 00:26:04,360 --> 00:26:10,040 It's not one person's fault. There's never like a problem 413 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:14,240 that one person caused. There was a whole path of stuff 414 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,520 that went wrong, right? So leadership styles, overall, 415 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:24,840 you need to curate your own style, a style that will match 416 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:28,560 your personality. And that's also why you need 417 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:36,240 multiple mentors to show you different styles to choose from. 418 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,040 So it's important to be comfortable as well, which 419 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:43,120 probably won't happen for a while. 420 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:51,880 But yeah, if you just know your own style and personality then 421 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,160 it'll really help you to be successful as a lead dev. 422 00:26:58,040 --> 00:26:59,680 Yeah. So you brought a very good point 423 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,080 right at the end, right. So before we know what kind of 424 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,680 leadership style, we also need to know our sort of personal 425 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,040 tendencies or characteristics, right? 426 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,640 There are many personality tests that we can do as well. 427 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,240 Also, importantly, you mentioned about not commanding, right? 428 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:17,080 I think in some places I could still think that there are 429 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:19,640 people who are more commanding rather than, you know, 430 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,720 supporting sometimes even maybe they do the work themselves 431 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:27,000 rather than teaching others to do the same kind of work. 432 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:29,640 So I think a leadership style is something really, really 433 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:32,720 important for someone to maybe find your own path, find your 434 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,760 own style. And I think the good thing these 435 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:38,720 days there are so many content, maybe autobiography book that 436 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,920 you can find inspiration from. And I think, yeah, maybe you can 437 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:43,480 find the styles that work for you. 438 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,080 But again, just a reminder, commanding probably is not the 439 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,720 right thing to do in most of the organizations these days. 440 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,240 So let's move on to the technical site a little bit. 441 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,400 So in the beginning, we mentioned about technical debt. 442 00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:58,440 Another point in your book you mentioned is about development 443 00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,520 standards. So tell us why it is important 444 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,480 for technique to take care about development standards. 445 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:11,000 Yeah, so standards are really important because every company 446 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:18,760 has a coding style or a code library of just like plugins and 447 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:23,240 yeah, all kinds of stuff. I have worked at places that 448 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:29,960 prescribed to the point where comments were sent back in code 449 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,880 review. If there was like a typo 450 00:28:33,120 --> 00:28:37,480 misspelling in a comment, not the actual code, like that's not 451 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:42,160 what I do, you know, Like, I'll tell you, it's there. 452 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,600 But that doesn't have to be fixed, like, right then. 453 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:51,800 But standards overall provide us with a way to write code on a 454 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:57,280 team that looks like one person wrote it right? 455 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:03,000 So it's all the same kind of style overall and just the 456 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,720 overall kind of architecture, right? 457 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:11,680 Every company should have a prototype so that when you start 458 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,360 a new project, you don't start from scratch. 459 00:29:14,520 --> 00:29:17,800 There's already something like to use. 460 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:23,240 And that, I think is the most important part of having 461 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:29,480 standards is creating that prototype, that project that 462 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:34,560 people can just load and go. Yeah, so I think the usual 463 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,080 stuff, right? Like code conventions, like your 464 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,360 lintas, right? Or maybe even guidelines how you 465 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,240 do stuff right. Code reviews, maybe peer 466 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,680 reviews, right? So I think importantly, as a 467 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:49,200 lead developer, right, I think you should take this role even 468 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:51,560 if nobody cares about it. But I think you should take 469 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:54,680 charge and set the standards because the code base that has 470 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:57,920 different flavors of how people writing it, right? 471 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,840 So I think it's very very confusing and it won't be 472 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,640 maintainable in the future as well, right? 473 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,000 So apart from standards, of course the development process, 474 00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,960 right development process is also very important. 475 00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:12,600 How can lead developer also take charge on this part? 476 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:18,280 Yeah. Some companies have a overall 477 00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:22,920 process, and then each project has completely different 478 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,400 processes. I hate that. 479 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:29,160 I'm just like every project should have the same process 480 00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,920 because then you know if I'm on multiple projects and they all 481 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:39,080 have different processes then I'll get confused really easily. 482 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:44,280 So making sure that everything is aligned to your 483 00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:48,320 organizational standards, Listen to me sounding like a president 484 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:53,120 of tech or whatever. But yeah, it's making sure that 485 00:30:53,400 --> 00:31:00,040 your process for checking in code is the same. 486 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,000 And you would think, what are you talking about? 487 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:04,840 There's only one way to do that. Now. 488 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,120 There's a bunch of different ways to check in code. 489 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:12,480 Trust me, I've seen people push right to master or yeah, main. 490 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:16,400 Like don't ever push right to the main branch, especially in 491 00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,680 production. That's why we have standards to 492 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:27,480 avoid these small errors and to help the team have a guide to 493 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,000 success. Yeah, so I think it's a valid 494 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:33,280 point, right? So if you have a process that is 495 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:35,880 too confusing, right? So I think it creates a lot of 496 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:37,960 variants and sometimes mistakes could happen, right? 497 00:31:38,320 --> 00:31:40,640 And I think you also brought up a good point in your book that 498 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,440 you need to understand a different perspectives of your 499 00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,320 stakeholders before you probably set up the process, just like 500 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,960 what you mentioned pushing to main branch directly. 501 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,120 So maybe tell us how people should, you know, incorporate 502 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,000 different perspectives from different stakeholders and 503 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,440 incorporate that in the standard and process. 504 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:02,920 That is a great question. I think that everyone has 505 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:10,920 expertise to learn from. So learn from managers, learn 506 00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:16,120 from PMS, learn from designers, right? 507 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:21,080 Everyone can participate in the dev process. 508 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,120 And actually that really, really helps because in almost every 509 00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:32,320 company I've worked for, people were like, afraid of the devs. 510 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:37,160 You know, we're all people. There's this like mystery about 511 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,560 us being able to control computers and just like make 512 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:43,840 things happen with code. But you don't have to be afraid 513 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,840 of us. And then as leads, if you show 514 00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:52,800 them that by asking advice of people who are not technical, 515 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,040 when you do that, you will uncover things that you would 516 00:32:57,040 --> 00:33:00,120 have never thought of because you are technical. 517 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:07,480 But yeah, like I have worked with people who were in HR and 518 00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:11,080 all kinds of other things. If you work at a tech company, 519 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,520 like you're in tech. So anyone that works at a tech 520 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,320 company has expertise that you can use. 521 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:22,400 Absolutely. Yeah, so I think talking to 522 00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:26,040 people again like learning from others, even just ask, I think 523 00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:28,200 it will open up a lot of new different perspectives. 524 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,800 So engineers or developers doesn't have to be tough people 525 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,600 to collaborate with, right? We are all good humans anyway, 526 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,440 right? So I think another important 527 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,560 thing in any software development team is about 528 00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,320 documentation, right? Technical documentation, API 529 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,520 documentation, architecture documentation. 530 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,240 Whatever that is. No matter how we emphasize about 531 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:52,400 documentation, it will always get neglected, it will always 532 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,400 get outdated. So I think it's also partly a 533 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,640 main responsibility of the lead developer, right to actually 534 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,200 make sure that the documentation is done and also updated. 535 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,840 So tell us a little bit more about this area. 536 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:07,920 I think this is my favorite topic. 537 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,360 That's why I'm smiling so much. This chapter in my book was 538 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,159 like, well received. Everybody has said like this is 539 00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,120 the best chapter. Writing in a book about writing 540 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:24,800 technical documentation was very meta, but it is so important 541 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:32,600 because people really need one place to go for the process and 542 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:38,440 for especially known issues. That is something that I always 543 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:40,320 have. And onboarding. 544 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,719 When you are onboarding new devs, how do they set up a 545 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,920 machine? How do they start a project? 546 00:34:47,159 --> 00:34:50,159 All of these things are so important to keep your team 547 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,400 productive. And for me, like, I just like 548 00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:59,720 writing technical documentation. Honestly, for each project you 549 00:34:59,720 --> 00:35:05,800 should have the architecture, the features, the priorities. 550 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:12,360 I guess each team member's role as well is always helpful. 551 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:17,560 How to contact people? Yes, I do put that in technical 552 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:22,040 documentation because if you have questions, you would have a 553 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,840 list of a whole bunch of people to ask. 554 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:32,600 But yeah, and then it really helps to set the team up for 555 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:36,680 success, because they aren't asking the same questions every 556 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,160 time. And if people are asking the 557 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,040 same question over and over, put it in that document so that 558 00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,640 people don't have to ask it again. 559 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,760 But just be kind of cognizant that technical documentation can 560 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,320 get out of hand. You can have too much of it, 561 00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,120 actually. I'm actually experiencing that 562 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,040 right now, but just sort of keep it concise to the point, 563 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:07,920 readable quickly, because of course no one will ever read 564 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,680 every single word in a technical document. 565 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:15,960 They will scan right for a specific error or like term. 566 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:21,880 So just kind of chunk it in a way that is easily consumable to 567 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:24,800 the reader. Nicely put, right, easily 568 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,600 consumable. So I think another tips probably 569 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,920 is like there are so many AI tools this day that can help you 570 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,680 also auto generate documentation. 571 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,640 Of course don't assume it's perfect, accurate all the time, 572 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,680 right? But it gets you started. 573 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:41,120 It helps you start, you know a lot of groundwork so that you 574 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:43,800 can improve it from there on. And I think the nice things 575 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,000 about those tools is that you kind of like consume it at the 576 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,200 same time and also kind of like tweaking it so it's like you are 577 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,520 the first reader of the documentation, right? 578 00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,480 So I think that's helpful as well. 579 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,760 In my view, you brought up a little bit about maintenance in 580 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,320 the beginning, right? It was also one of your pet 581 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:02,960 peeves probably in any kind of a software development team. 582 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,720 In your book, you mentioned about preventive measure. 583 00:37:05,720 --> 00:37:08,040 So preventing something before it happens. 584 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:10,760 I think this is really important, especially if you 585 00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,200 have running systems in productions, right, serving 586 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,040 customers, real customers, doing transactions and things like 587 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:18,480 that. How can a lead developer be more 588 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,600 proactive in doing all these preventive measures? 589 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:30,440 Yeah, so for me, my main experience isin.net, right? 590 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:36,800 So I always knew I was like, OK, so the caching has to be 591 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:44,120 handled, the app pool has to be restarted at night and all of 592 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:51,160 that making sure that any maintenance tasks that can be 593 00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:55,200 automated and scheduled are. But unfortunately they can't all 594 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:58,640 be. So in those cases, you know, 595 00:37:58,640 --> 00:38:03,680 sometimes even if I didn't like really want to on like a 596 00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:09,880 Saturday, I would run a process like a batch that would take 597 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:12,600 hours and I would just kind of check on it and stuff. 598 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:16,320 But yeah, hopefully because that was a long time ago. 599 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:22,160 So hopefully now everything's automated and capable of just 600 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:26,800 telling you, hey, I had an error e-mail or whatever. 601 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:33,040 Yeah, but just the importance of maintenance and making sure that 602 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:37,720 everything is working correctly and clean and making sure the 603 00:38:37,720 --> 00:38:42,520 one thing that has gotten me so many times is disk space. 604 00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:47,640 There are some error messages that will never point you to 605 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,960 hey, you're out of disk space, it'll be something cryptic or 606 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,360 whatever. Just check the disk space. 607 00:38:55,360 --> 00:39:01,760 Like periodically put like a task or like a note to just 608 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:07,920 remind you to at least check or write a script to tell you if 609 00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:14,000 something is out or like a problem occurs, stuff like that. 610 00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:16,400 Yeah. So I think these days there are 611 00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:18,440 plenty of tools, right? You can write automation, you 612 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,240 can integrate agents, you can, you know, use maybe the cloud, 613 00:39:22,240 --> 00:39:24,720 right? Or you can even use bots, right? 614 00:39:24,720 --> 00:39:27,280 There are so many bots that you can integrate with maybe your 615 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,200 chat tools or whatever Productivity Tools that you use, 616 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,280 right? So I think there's no reason why 617 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,360 you cannot automate some of these maintenance tasks, but I 618 00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,280 think it's really important, especially if it relates to 619 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:41,680 reliability of your system or making sure that the customer is 620 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,480 still happy using your system, right. 621 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:48,360 So another thing that is equally important when we go to the lead 622 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:51,280 developer, especially in a new project or a software 623 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,240 development task, is that to provide estimates. 624 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,840 I think sometimes this is the most tricky question, right? 625 00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,680 How should the lead developer approach this question? 626 00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:04,040 You know when they are tasked to estimate a certain project, a 627 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,240 certain maybe stories in software development team these 628 00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:09,320 days, right? So any tips here about 629 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:13,400 estimation? Yes, do not estimate alone. 630 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,520 Ask your team, because when you estimate tasks, you're probably 631 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:23,720 estimating them for other people and you have the expertise. 632 00:40:23,720 --> 00:40:29,160 So the time it would take you to finish something would not be 633 00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,400 the same time that it would take a junior to finish something. 634 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:38,960 So for every single task, have like a meeting, right? 635 00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:43,160 And just talk through the approach overall. 636 00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:49,440 Hopefully you are estimating in points and not hours. 637 00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,440 I hate estimating in hours. There's a reason we have story 638 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,680 points because we are horrible at estimating off of hours. 639 00:40:56,680 --> 00:41:01,520 But like with story points, it's a ratio of complexity. 640 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:07,160 You aren't estimating in hours, you're estimating a task on how 641 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:13,440 complex it is in relation to other tasks, which makes it a 642 00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:20,320 lot easier to estimate because like it could take me an hour to 643 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:25,120 write like a function, right? But will it work? 644 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:27,920 Have I tested it? Have I done everything? 645 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:33,120 And definitely incorporate local testing as well, which a lot of 646 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,000 people skip that and I don't love it. 647 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,000 Yeah, developers can be so confident, right, in their own 648 00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:42,880 skills or maybe in their familiarity with the domains or 649 00:41:42,880 --> 00:41:46,440 stuff that they have dealt with. Always do testing first before 650 00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,240 you even push it to production. So some people even go straight 651 00:41:49,240 --> 00:41:53,480 to production socially. As we reach the end of our 652 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,040 conversation, I have one last question for you, which I 653 00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:58,920 normally ask for all my guests, which I call the three technical 654 00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,200 leadership wisdom. So you can think of it just like 655 00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:03,200 advice you want to give us to listeners here. 656 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:05,560 Think of it like mentorship from you to us. 657 00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:08,360 So can you share maybe 3 technical leadership with them? 658 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:14,160 Sure. Number one, everybody feels like 659 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,000 an impostor at times. We all do. 660 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:21,400 Like I completely do. I have written a book and it's 661 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:25,560 going to be published and I can hold it in my hands, but I still 662 00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,160 feel like sometimes I don't know what I'm doing. 663 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,120 We're all trying to figure it out. 664 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,200 So just keep in mind you are not an impostor. 665 00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:40,960 You have excellent skills, you can keep improving and learning, 666 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:46,360 and then #2 would be the only stupid question is the one that 667 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,280 you don't ask. And if anybody ever makes you 668 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:51,960 feel like you asked a stupid question, then they're a stupid 669 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:56,120 person. So don't worry about that #3. 670 00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,080 Failure is the best teacher, it really is. 671 00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:04,200 Don't be afraid to fail. Just don't, because you'll learn 672 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,640 so much. Yes, it hurts for a while, but 673 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:11,120 you'll learn. And then in the future, when you 674 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,160 fail again, you'll be like that was spectacular. 675 00:43:14,160 --> 00:43:17,560 Yay, I learned so much. Well, really unique wisdom 676 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:19,360 indeed, right? So you cover about impossible 677 00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,400 syndrome, You cover about Stupid question, right? 678 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,600 So I think the last one is about failures. 679 00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,400 I think it's really, really beautiful, right? 680 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:28,680 I agree. Failures is the best teacher 681 00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:30,880 ever, right? If you think in your past, 682 00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,880 right, were the biggest failure, I'm sure you will think that's 683 00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:36,840 your biggest learning as well, even though it's painful, right? 684 00:43:37,160 --> 00:43:39,600 But I think we all agree that all the failures that we went 685 00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:43,000 through are the best teachers for us until this point in time, 686 00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,840 right? So Shelley, if people love our 687 00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:48,520 conversation, they want to reach out, or maybe they want to find 688 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:51,000 more about your resources or your courses, right? 689 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:53,080 Is there a place where they can find you online? 690 00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:56,320 Yeah, sure. So I'm on LinkedIn. 691 00:43:56,320 --> 00:44:00,840 I'm also on Twitter. I'm not calling it X at S 692 00:44:01,240 --> 00:44:05,120 Benhoff. I have a podcast as well. 693 00:44:05,120 --> 00:44:09,400 It's TRS and Tech. And then I'm also on Tiktok and 694 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,600 Instagram at TRS and Tech as well. 695 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:15,040 Nice. So I'll put it in the show notes 696 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:17,200 as well. So for people to refer to your 697 00:44:17,240 --> 00:44:19,880 places online. So thank you again so much for 698 00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:21,200 your time. Shelly, I love this 699 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:23,360 conversation. I hope a lot of developers out 700 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,160 there learn more about the developers role. 701 00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,480 And maybe the last thing is, like, when can we expect you to 702 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,880 finish the book? Yeah, my editor's asking me that 703 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:37,560 too. I should have it wrapped up at 704 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:42,600 the end of this month, I think at the end of the year, so it 705 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,680 should be published online in full pretty soon. 706 00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:51,920 You can access chapters one through 8 right now online, but 707 00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:55,240 then it'll be printed as an actual book that you can buy in 708 00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:58,640 stores in the spring. Yeah, hopefully it aligns with 709 00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,240 the release of this episode as well, so good luck with the rest 710 00:45:01,240 --> 00:45:04,000 of your publishing process. Thank you so much. 711 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,120 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 712 00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,880 until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I 713 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,560 would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues 714 00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,840 who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode. 715 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,040 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 716 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,440 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 717 00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,640 It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. 718 00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,040 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 719 00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:34,000 the episode page at Technically journal dot dev website, 720 00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,920 including the full transcript, interesting quotes, and links to 721 00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,320 the resources mentioned from the conversation. 722 00:45:40,720 --> 00:45:43,800 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the Shells mailing 723 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,600 list on Techly Juno dot dev to get notified for any future 724 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,200 episodes. Stay tuned for the next Techly 725 00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:53,120 Journal episode, and until then, goodbye.