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Hey, a quick message from me. 
Thank you for being part of the 

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Techledjournal community. 
This show wouldn't be the same 

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Creating this podcast is a labor
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So if you're loving TLJ and want

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Every little bit helps field the

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research, editing, and sleepless
nights that go into making this 

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show the best it can be. 
Thanks for being the best 

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listeners any podcast could ask 
for. 

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If we want to deliver better 
results, what should we do? 

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We need some model that says 
what improvement looks like. 

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But we also need to focus our 
attention on the things that 

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matter. 
And the way to do this is by 

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changing the system. 
So if you want to deliver better

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results, you need to do 
something to your way of 

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working. 
Hey everyone, My name is Henry 

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Surya Virawan and you're 
listening to the Technically 

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Journal Podcast, the show where 
I'll be bringing you the 

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00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:19,960
greatest technical leaders, 
practitioners, and thought 

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leaders in the industry to 
discuss about their journey, 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical 
team, and to make an impact in 

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your personal work. 
So let's dive into our journal. 

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Hello again, my friends and my 
listeners. 

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You're listening to the 
Technically Journal Podcast, a 

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00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:47,240
podcast on technical leadership 
and excellence. 

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00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,000
If you haven't, please subscribe
on your favorite podcast app to 

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00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,920
get notified for new episodes. 
Keckley Journal also provides 

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bite sites contents on LinkedIn 
X, Instagram, YouTube, and 

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TikTok. 
My guest for today's episode is 

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Gil Brozer. 
Gil is an Agile leadership 

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expert and the author of the 
latest book Deliver Better 

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Results. 
In this episode, Gil discusses 

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ways to level up our value 
delivery system to deliver 

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better results. 
We first delve into the 

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fundamental concept of systems 
thinking and cause effect 

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relationships, which are 
exemplified by reinforcing and 

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balancing loops. 
Gil also explains the importance

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of ways of working, particularly
on shifting mindset and focusing

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on people first before the 
process. 

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Gil then explains the square 
model detailed in his book and 

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how we can use it to assess our 
fitness for purpose by 

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understanding the distinct 
levels described in the model. 

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He also shares some of the 10 
strategies from his book that we

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can use to enhance our fitness 
level and deliver better 

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results. 
I hope you enjoy listening to 

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this episode and learning a lot 
of insights to improve your 

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value delivery. 
Remember to share it with your 

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colleagues, friends and 
communities and leave a five 

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star rating and review on Apple 
Podcasts and Spotify. 

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Now let's go to my conversation 
with Gil. 

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Hello guys. 
Welcome back to another new 

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episode of the Tech Regional 
Podcast. 

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Today, I'm sitting here with Gil
Broza. 

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He's the author of a book titled
Delivering Better Results. 

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So I'm sure all of us here want 
to deliver better results, 

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right? 
But sometimes it's very hard and

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challenging to know how to 
deliver better results. 

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So today, I hope we'll be 
learning a lot more things about

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how we can deliver better 
results in a systematic way, 

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right? 
So, Gil, welcome to the show. 

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Thank you for having me. 
Gil, I always love to ask my 

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guests to first introduce 
themselves by telling us about 

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highlights or turning points in 
your career that you think we 

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all can learn from. 
OK, I started like many people 

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as a developer, then became a 
manager and that was my exposure

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to the significance of process 
and the significance of 

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collaboration. 
And after moving couple 

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companies I discovered also 
what's the difference between a 

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loose and simple process and a 
big and heavy one. 

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And I really didn't like the big
and heavy one. 

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So I that's around the time I 
discovered XP Extreme 

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Programming. 
And I really got into that. 

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And the turning point for me was
when I decided to make this my 

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full time profession became an 
XP coach right at the time 

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nobody said Agile coach, it was 
just speak and I got exposed to 

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so many interesting companies at
all sizes. 

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We didn't even use the term 
scaling back then, but I had 

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some pretty large clients. 
This became, you know, my work 

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of a lifetime. 
And then a turning point for me 

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was when I realized that I 
approach my coaching work and 

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the advice I give clients in a 
different way than most. 

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I really emphasize the human 
side. 

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So yes, there is process. 
There are techniques. 

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I taught test driven 
development. 

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I paired up with developers. 
I did all of that. 

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But it was all about how we 
engage as a group in the 

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creation of value. 
And so that ended up being my 

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first book, The Human Side of 
Agile, which was pretty unusual 

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for its time, 2012 or so. 
So that was a big turning point.

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In the next one was when I 
realized that another aspect of 

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what I do is to help people be 
cognizant of the choices that 

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they make and how you know you 
can execute the exact same 

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practice like continuous 
integration or story point 

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estimation or any of those 
things. 

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You can execute with one mindset
or a different mindset, 

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basically choices and you get 
totally different outcomes. 

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That's turned into the second 
book and into some really super 

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interesting clients. 
And since starting I've worked 

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with about 100 clients. 
So I've seen so much. 

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I've seen the good, the bad and 
the ugly. 

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I've seen the big and the small,
the fascinating and the boring. 

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I've really seen it all and I 
really love this angle or 

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perspective that I have on our 
industry. 

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And so this is really turned 
into some of my newest work, 

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which is what we're going to be 
talking about today. 

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So I think it's very 
interesting, right, when you 

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have coached so many different 
clients, right? 

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Big, small, fast moving, slow 
moving, right. 

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I think you have seen a lot of 
patterns and I'm sure today 

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we'll be learning a lot from you
today. 

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So you wrote this book, deliver 
better results, maybe a little 

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bit of background story. 
How did you come up with the 

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idea? 
What kind of problems are you 

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trying to solve with this book? 
So like I said, I've worked with

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about 100 clients, but I've 
spoken with a lot more 

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companies. 
So you know, AVP will call me 

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up, a director, CTO, they'll say
we need, we need some help here.

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So I do discovery calls and I 
really learn how the companies 

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work and what's getting in their
way. 

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And I found it a little bit 
difficult to articulate what 

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exactly needs to be done now 
without doing a really serious 

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assessment. 
I can really understand the lay 

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of the land, what's connected to
what, what's affecting what and 

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so on. 
And you know a lot of the 

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clients I work with, I do 
actually start with an 

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assessment and they pay for it 
and they get you know basically 

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we strategically designed the 
next few steps. 

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But I was looking for something 
that would be quick and simple. 

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So quick and simple that an 
executive can, you know in 10 

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minutes figure out we are doing 
this well and therefore we need 

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to do AB and C to level up. 
You know, think about it like in

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terms of health, we can step on 
the scale and we can weigh 

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ourselves and that is, I mean we
get a precise number, but what 

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matters is like what range it is
in and based on the range we can

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sort of understand, you know how
well we're doing and even that 

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is a partial metric, but it's 
sort of a starting point. 

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So I was looking for something 
that would be this simple, and 

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at the time I didn't even have a
term for this. 

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How well we're doing and even 
what is we? 

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Because I come from the agile 
space where for the longest time

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our focus was the single team, 
and then the focus became the 

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bigger teams and like, you know,
scaling frameworks and whatnot. 

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But when it comes to creating 
software, when it comes to 

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delivering value, more people 
are involved in that. 

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The analogy I give to this is 
like, you know, the credit roll 

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in a movie, right? 
Yes, it starts with the producer

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and director and actors and the 
writer, but there's a million 

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more people, and every little 
decision they made had an impact

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on the end result, even the 
people who took care of the 

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catering, Right. 
Because, you know, hungry actors

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probably don't perform as well 
as they do when they're not 

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hungry. 
So I was looking for a way to 

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describe this construct that 
creates value and a way to 

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understand what I learned came 
to term it's fitness for 

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purpose. 
So in the book I talk about the 

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value delivery system and that's
a whole bunch of people. 

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If you're in a product company 
and I think a lot of the 

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listeners of this podcast are, 
you'd have product people and 

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engineers in Sr. 
ES and UX and whatnot content. 

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And it's all these people and 
all their managers who make 

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decisions and how they work so 
that at the end your customer is

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able to do something different. 
So that's a system of value 

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delivery. 
Now we do have terms in the 

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industry there's like value 
stream, but in many cases it's 

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not a complete system, it's a 
portion of it, at least that's 

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what I've seen. 
I'm sure there are exceptions. 

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And when we say value stream, we
sometimes blind ourselves to the

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fact that some dependencies go 
backwards. 

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It's not a sequential flow or as
a value stream sounds like 

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everything kind of goes 
downstream. 

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So everything is connected and 
that's the concept of system 

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from system thinking. 
And then I came up with the 

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definition of fitness for 
purpose. 

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And, you know, it took me a few 
months to figure out what I was 

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doing here. 
But then I came up with this 

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model and I was able to say, you
know, here in 10 minutes, 

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literally 10 minutes, I can have
a conversation with you or you 

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can do it on your own And you 
can say, well, we are at the 

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level 2, here's what level 2 
means, or we are at the level 4,

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here's what Level 4 means. 
And the amazing realization I 

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had is that this is not really a
lossy calculation in the sense 

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that, well, I'm level two, OK, 
anybody could be level 2, then 

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what? 
No, if you're at a level 2 

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sustainably. 
So you really need to do these 

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couple things, what I refer to 
as strategies to level up. 

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And I tested this with so many 
people and it seems to work. 

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So this has been the background 
and how it evolved. 

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So I spent about a year in doing
all of this and trying it out, 

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and then another year writing 
the book and of course any of 

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the process that evolved even 
more. 

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Right. 
Thanks for sharing this story, 

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right. 
So I think it's pretty 

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00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:44,560
interesting. 
I mean you know what just a 

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couple of months back I was 
trying to do the same thing, 

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right. 
So assessing how my engineering 

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00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,160
team is working in the company, 
right, and trying to get 

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so-called the maturity model, I 
call it borrowing from like CMMI

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00:10:56,600 --> 00:11:00,280
or maybe all other maturity 
model out there and trying to 

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00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,720
assess level 1 until maybe 5, 
right. 

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00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:06,040
And also figuring out like what 
kind of practices that maybe 

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level one versus level 5 should 
be different, right? 

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00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,200
And I think it's pretty much the
same idea. 

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00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:14,000
And I think I when I read a 
book, some concepts really 

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resonate with me. 
So I think the first thing is 

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about value delivery system, 
right? 

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Some people call it value stream
as you mentioned, but you 

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00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:25,240
emphasize a lot about the system
aspect of the value delivery 

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00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:27,440
system. 
Tell us a little bit more like 

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00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:30,680
why some people seems to not get
this idea. 

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00:11:30,680 --> 00:11:32,880
You know, like software 
engineering is a socio technical

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00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,360
problem, some people say, right,
It's a system thinking. 

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00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,440
So, yeah, maybe elaborate a 
little bit more. 

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00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,320
You know, I don't think it is 
that people don't get it. 

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00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,360
I actually think that a lot of 
professionals in our industry 

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definitely get the concept of a 
system. 

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We see it all around us. 
We know vicious cycles when we 

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see them or maybe when they're 
pointed out to us. 

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But we know what that is. 
We know, virtuous cycles, we 

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know. 
But feedback, feedback isn't 

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just, you know, customers saying
yay or nay, any type of thing is

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a feedback, a failing test is a 
feedback. 

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So we get it. 
But I think we have such a 

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history of working sequentially,
functionally, hand off, throw 

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00:12:07,680 --> 00:12:11,520
over the wall, right. 
Our organizations are structured

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this way. 
And the way the organizations 

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are structured, somebody who 
could be, let's say, Director of

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engineering, right? 
That's somebody with authority, 

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right, in the span of authority.
But they don't actually have 

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authority over the entire system
in most cases because there's 

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product people and there's the 
designer and there is maybe a 

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marketing person who also 
participates in deciding what to

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work on or whatever. 
So I think it's also what we're 

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used to and what we perpetuate 
through the org structure and 

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the management ethos. 
But I have seen so many 

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exceptions. 
One of my clients, I love them, 

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their VP Engineering and the VP 
Product. 

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Yes, they owned the separate 
groups, but they always travel 

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together. 
I actually tell the example in 

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the book, right, Every time I 
met one of them, the other one 

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came in. 
And these are busy people, 

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right? 
And they had this understanding 

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that neither one would do 
something to surprise the other 

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because, you know, it's hard to 
coordinate schedules. 

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So that's an example of how you 
can manage even though you have 

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more than one person in charge 
of the place. 

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Or generally, you know, simply 
making decisions while you know,

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consulting with your colleagues,
right? 

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So for instance, you might be an
engineering manager and you want

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to turn out better code. 
OK, better quality code. 

254
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That's useful, right? 
But we live in a system, meaning

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that whatever you decide will 
have ramifications. 

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If you decide to regression test
everything, obviously that will 

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slow everything down, right? 
If you constantly regression 

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00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,600
test, you can be writing a ton 
of unit tests. 

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That's good, assuming the unit 
tests are good. 

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But even then, if you're not 
being strategic and you're unit 

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testing everything because you 
want 100% coverage, that's going

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to slow things down because 
you're going to apply some of 

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your effort to things of low 
value and low change. 

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So for the most part, we just 
need to be aware that we operate

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in this type of environment. 
Which is why in the book, 

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00:14:01,560 --> 00:14:04,560
whenever I explain system 
thinking, it's in plain English,

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I don't draw diagrams. 
I don't talk about all sorts of 

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00:14:08,080 --> 00:14:11,120
amplifications and this and that
and whatnot, because I don't 

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think people need too much 
theory. 

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It's a pretty straightforward 
concept. 

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So I find also very exciting 
whenever I read about system 

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00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,320
thinking, right? 
So I think if more people read 

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about this concept and some 
examples, typical examples in 

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software engineering, I'm sure 
they will all get it. 

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00:14:26,920 --> 00:14:29,920
There are two things that I want
you maybe to try to explain a 

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00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,760
little bit more so this concept 
of reinforcing loop and 

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balancing loop. 
I find it is also very very 

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00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:38,240
insightful, especially for 
people who don't know about the 

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00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:41,760
terms, but I'm sure when they 
experience the situation they 

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00:14:41,760 --> 00:14:43,840
will get it right. 
Yeah. 

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00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:48,920
So reinforcing loops is when you
do something and that creates a 

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00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:52,120
response and that response maybe
triggers another response and so

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00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,320
on until it kind of comes back 
to you, OK, And it comes back to

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you and it reinforces something 
that you were trying to do. 

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And it may not be positive, it 
may actually be negative. 

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00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,120
So when we think about 
increasing psychological safety,

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for instance, or having people 
collaborate more, that's usually

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00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,200
a good reinforcing loop in that 
it creates positive effects, but

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00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:18,440
it doesn't end with those 
effects that again, it kind of 

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00:15:18,440 --> 00:15:21,280
cascades down and and creates 
more positive effects, for 

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00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:25,440
instance, in engagement. 
OK, balancing loops, push back 

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00:15:25,440 --> 00:15:28,960
against your change. 
The example I gave in the book 

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00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,440
is really within terms of like, 
again, writing unit tests. 

294
00:15:32,760 --> 00:15:36,720
Writing unit tests is the type 
of thing that most tech leads 

295
00:15:36,720 --> 00:15:38,360
and engineering managers that I 
know. 

296
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,800
They think it's a good thing and
it is a good thing, but somehow 

297
00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:44,280
it tends to die. 
This idea tends to die in 

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00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:45,880
organizations now. 
Why? 

299
00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:49,880
Because it pushes against all 
sorts of things, such as when is

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00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:52,880
this feature going to be done 
right and I need you to deliver 

301
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:54,120
now. 
I don't need to worry about the 

302
00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:59,240
future too much in all sorts of 
system forces, which basically 

303
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,840
manifest in behaviors and 
meetings and complaints and 

304
00:16:02,840 --> 00:16:06,520
escalations and whatnot. 
And the loop here is that 

305
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,280
eventually the pressure comes 
back to the people who want to 

306
00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,800
write those, you know, tests and
they say you know what, maybe 

307
00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:14,120
not this time and maybe not this
time. 

308
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,320
And before long the idea dies. 
Right, thanks for explaining 

309
00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,920
those two concepts. 
I'm sure if people listen they 

310
00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,280
would get it right. 
So this kind of readforcing loop

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00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,520
and balancing loop. 
So another thing in the book you

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00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,160
mentioned a lot apart from just 
looking at the system holistic 

313
00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,520
level, right. 
So you mentioned about ways of 

314
00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,920
working, so maybe touch on a 
little bit like why ways of 

315
00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,520
working is very, very important 
for delivering better results. 

316
00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:44,480
So if we want to deliver better 
results, what should we do? 

317
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,320
We can tell the team deliver 
better. 

318
00:16:47,360 --> 00:16:50,440
Here's the metric. 
Raise it, increase it, increase 

319
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:52,680
your velocity, reduce bugs. 
I don't know. 

320
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,760
Whatever. 
We can slap goals and things, we

321
00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,800
can say by next year, 20% 
increase in productivity. 

322
00:16:59,280 --> 00:17:02,920
OK, so how do we achieve that? 
By working harder, By typing 

323
00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:06,040
longer? 
By doing what we need some model

324
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:07,520
that says what improvement looks
like. 

325
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:09,920
But we also need to focus our 
attention on the things that 

326
00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:12,119
matter. 
And the way to do this is by 

327
00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,800
changing the system. 
Now, what does it mean to change

328
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:16,640
the system? 
So like I said, no system is a 

329
00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:19,280
whole bunch of people and their 
ways of working. 

330
00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:21,079
So we're not changing the 
people. 

331
00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:22,800
Unless it's an extreme case, of 
course. 

332
00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,599
But we're changing how we work. 
So we change the process. 

333
00:17:26,599 --> 00:17:29,280
We change practices. 
We change team structure. 

334
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:33,440
We change how we make decisions.
We change what we commit to. 

335
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,560
We change who makes which 
decision, things of that nature.

336
00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:41,520
A way of working is basically 
made-up of two things. 

337
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:47,320
One is all the tactical stuff. 
Practices, processes, roles, 

338
00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:52,440
tool usage, meetings, artifacts 
like backlog or whatnot, and the

339
00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,800
choices that we make in their 
use. 

340
00:17:55,240 --> 00:18:00,440
So if I use the backlog as a 
short, small holding place for 

341
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,360
good ideas, and I update it 
frequently based on your 

342
00:18:04,360 --> 00:18:08,720
information, that means I'm 
using it with probably an agile 

343
00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,680
mindset. 
And if instead I use the backlog

344
00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:14,840
as a holding place for 
everything that management wants

345
00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,360
and nothing's coming off the 
backlog and we'd like not to put

346
00:18:18,360 --> 00:18:21,480
more things on it and whatnot. 
And then I'm approaching it with

347
00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,360
a more traditional mindset, 
which kind of equates the 

348
00:18:24,360 --> 00:18:28,080
backlog to a project plan. 
So that's why I never talk just 

349
00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:31,480
about process, because process 
is meaningless without the 

350
00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:35,000
choices that we make in the use 
of it. 

351
00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,560
So a way of working is both the 
choices, which is what I refer 

352
00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:41,040
to as mindset. 
It's not some loosey goosey 

353
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:43,880
psychological thing. 
It's simply a collection of what

354
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,560
we value, what we believe in, 
our principles for action and 

355
00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:49,440
those tactics, both of them 
together. 

356
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,960
So if you want to deliver better
results, you need to do 

357
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:54,400
something to your way of 
working. 

358
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:57,160
Maybe you keep the process 
constant, wait till you change 

359
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,720
the structure, maybe go the 
other way. 

360
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,360
Usually we do both so that we 
engage with the work 

361
00:19:02,360 --> 00:19:05,240
differently. 
And no, we take inputs, we 

362
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:06,800
convert them differently to 
outputs. 

363
00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:09,880
That's basically what it is. 
I think I assume many people 

364
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,960
when they do this kind of 
transformation or maybe changing

365
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,000
the productivity right, they 
focus a lot on the so-called the

366
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:19,680
tactical aspect of what you 
mentioned like processes, team 

367
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:22,360
structure, maybe new leaders 
coming in right. 

368
00:19:22,720 --> 00:19:26,640
But they probably they seem to 
neglect a lot on the mindset 

369
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:28,680
part right? 
What you mentioned values, 

370
00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:33,120
beliefs and principles. 
So why should we consider a lot 

371
00:19:33,120 --> 00:19:35,080
more on the mindset, maybe a 
little bit here? 

372
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,960
How does the values, the belief 
and the principles actually work

373
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,200
in the way of working? 
OK. 

374
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:46,920
So the way it works is that we 
choose what's important to us in

375
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,240
the doing of work so that we're 
successful. 

376
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:51,480
Historically, those are the 
values. 

377
00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,360
Historically, what we chose is 
predictability. 

378
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,120
We chose standardization. 
We believed that's the other 

379
00:19:58,120 --> 00:20:02,680
component in mindset. 
We believed that we can have a 

380
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,960
process or workflow or whatnot, 
SDLC that will guarantee success

381
00:20:07,960 --> 00:20:11,520
no matter which person carries 
out the activities. 

382
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:14,840
Because people come and go and 
maybe we need contractors or we 

383
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,480
hire or we fire or whatnot, but 
people were the variable. 

384
00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:20,840
The assumption was the process 
can be the constant. 

385
00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:25,320
OK, so that's an example. 
Agile comes along and say no, we

386
00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,840
value adaptation for us. 
Adaptation is so, so important. 

387
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,520
That we're going to reflect it 
in everything that we do. 

388
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,280
Now, why do we value adaptation?
Not because somebody said so or 

389
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,640
because it's popular, but 
because if we don't adapt, we'll

390
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:39,320
die. 
If we don't adapt, we'll fall 

391
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:40,800
behind. 
If we don't adapt, we'll get 

392
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:41,880
disrupted. 
Whatever. 

393
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,640
So the values are, again, what 
we are optimized for and the 

394
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:49,160
beliefs are sort of what we take
for granted or what we think is 

395
00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,240
true, and they give rise to 
everything. 

396
00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:53,680
So the third component in 
mindset is principles. 

397
00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,920
For instance, collaboration, 
self organization, transparency,

398
00:20:56,920 --> 00:21:00,240
sex, safety, deferring decisions
to the last responsible moment 

399
00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,520
that one's from lean, 
organizing, functionally handing

400
00:21:03,520 --> 00:21:06,720
off, sign offs. 
All of these are principles, so 

401
00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,840
nothing in what I described as a
practice or a tool or a 

402
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,240
procedure. 
It's something that permeates 

403
00:21:12,240 --> 00:21:14,720
everything that we do. 
So for instance, if we want 

404
00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,960
collaboration, it's not just 
between 2 devs, we want 

405
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,520
collaboration between product 
and engineering, between IT and 

406
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,160
business, between US and 
customers. 

407
00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:26,560
And if we have too many 
customers and we need Go 

408
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:28,560
betweens, let's at least 
collaborate with the Go 

409
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,200
betweens. 
So these principles permeate 

410
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,960
everything that we do. 
So the way it works is values 

411
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,920
and beliefs give rise to our 
choice of principles, which in 

412
00:21:36,920 --> 00:21:40,960
turn kind of determine which 
tactics we will actually be 

413
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:42,720
using and how we would be using 
them. 

414
00:21:43,160 --> 00:21:46,440
Now just going back to something
that you said before you asked 

415
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:50,280
me the question, I don't know 
that people necessarily neglect 

416
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,320
them. 
I think for the longest time 

417
00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:56,560
people were not aware that that 
is the role that values beliefs 

418
00:21:56,560 --> 00:22:00,400
and principles played. 
And one reason for this is 

419
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,520
because for decades we've been 
taking things for granted. 

420
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,120
Again, those are beliefs. 
For instance, we believed in 10X

421
00:22:07,120 --> 00:22:09,480
developers. 
We believed that if every 

422
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,680
specialist or expert does their 
part, the result will be great. 

423
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:15,160
So hire the best, right? 
And if you do any system 

424
00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:17,480
thinking, of course you realize 
that there's more to it. 

425
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:22,160
And the other thing is those 
values, they're invisible. 

426
00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:25,120
So yes, organizations talk about
values, but they talk about 

427
00:22:25,120 --> 00:22:27,960
cultural values and they put 
them on a wall and a poster. 

428
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,920
But those cultural values don't 
actually say anything about what

429
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:33,320
matters when it comes to doing 
work. 

430
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:36,440
So yes, we can be inclusive and 
diverse and whatnot, and yes, we

431
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,800
should be. 
But how do we carry out work? 

432
00:22:39,080 --> 00:22:41,120
Are we being adaptive? 
Are we being predictive? 

433
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:43,600
Are we being collaborative or 
are we being siloed? 

434
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:46,920
We're optimizing for something. 
We're optimizing our way of 

435
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,440
working to achieve certain 
effects. 

436
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,520
And nobody thought this way 
because for decades we optimized

437
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:54,640
for the exact same things. 
The predictability, the 

438
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,680
standardization, the making 
early commitments and be on time

439
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,320
and on budget. 
That's what we knew. 

440
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,080
And in a lot of organizations, 
that is sort of what management 

441
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,880
still optimizes for because 
their boards pressure them and 

442
00:23:06,880 --> 00:23:10,480
there's a whole mess there. 
But fundamentally there is just 

443
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:15,320
3-4, maybe five of those values 
that govern your entire value 

444
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,320
delivery system. 
Be aware of them, choose them 

445
00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,320
intentionally and be explicit. 
And sometimes that's all you 

446
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,000
need, honestly. 
Yeah. 

447
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,080
So I think I've been there as 
well in multiple companies which

448
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,280
are doing transformation right. 
They seem to get a new leader, 

449
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:33,720
put a posters here are new 
values who here are maybe you 

450
00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,240
know new whatever that we are 
adopting, right and let people 

451
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,320
follow. 
So I think what you mentioned 

452
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,160
here is sometimes like the 
people aspect, right, because 

453
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,720
changing human is actually very 
difficult, right? 

454
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,760
And no one can predict. 
So maybe a little bit more on 

455
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,440
this concept, right? 
You put people first versus the 

456
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:52,920
process first. 
How can leaders be more 

457
00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,400
intentional and be more 
conscious in the decision to put

458
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,480
people first? 
OK, so first let's define this. 

459
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,280
What does it mean to put people 
first, what's second and what's 

460
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,880
third? 
So typically nowadays the 

461
00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:08,600
understanding is and that is by 
the way aligned with the Agile 

462
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:12,280
line of thinking is that people 
are first, product is second and

463
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,800
process is third. 
No, that doesn't mean that we 

464
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,840
don't care about process. 
It doesn't mean that we don't 

465
00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,360
care about product. 
But what it implies is that if 

466
00:24:20,360 --> 00:24:24,480
we take good care of our people,
if we're being good enabling 

467
00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:26,160
leaders, we draw good 
boundaries. 

468
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:28,240
We trust their safety there. 
There's a whole bunch of stuff 

469
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,800
there. 
If we enable people to bring 

470
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,080
their best selves to work and 
all this good stuff, they will 

471
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,040
take care of the product and 
they will come up with a process

472
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,040
that makes sense for the making 
of this specific product. 

473
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,880
So that's what that means to put
people first. 

474
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,760
Again, historically, we put 
process 1st and product 2nd and 

475
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:51,880
people last, which is why every 
person is a resource, right. 

476
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:55,320
If we're standardizing, then 
we're standardizing people too. 

477
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,120
Headcount, FTE, buzzword resumes
and all of that stuff. 

478
00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:04,240
We're standardizing people. 
Now we can believe that that's 

479
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,720
legitimate because the entire 
industry is doing it. 

480
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:10,000
We can believe that that's a 
useful way to go or we can 

481
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,000
believe something else. 
And there are many, many leaders

482
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:17,920
these days who believe something
else that if you trust and 

483
00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,680
enable and support and catch 
when they fall, but you still 

484
00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,000
lead, right? 
You're not a pushover, you still

485
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:29,120
lead, you give direction, you 
show what good looks like and 

486
00:25:29,120 --> 00:25:31,320
all of that. 
This tends to create better 

487
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,040
results. 
And we see this in engagement 

488
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,760
scores and in product success 
and in retention in a whole 

489
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,440
bunch of things now and even 
that I say, well, you believe 

490
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,800
this or you believe that, but 
even that is a little bit black 

491
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:44,920
and white because there is 
context. 

492
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,880
I may believe that my team, 
let's say I'm a team lead, I may

493
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,520
believe that my team means the 
best, but I may not believe that

494
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:54,560
they could actually pull off the
entire work because maybe 

495
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,760
they're all juniors, shouldn't 
be this way. 

496
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,560
I know, but maybe that's how it 
is. 

497
00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:02,960
And so I may need to support 
them more and look over their 

498
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,440
shoulders sometime, trust and 
verify and all of that so that 

499
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:07,680
they're actually more 
successful. 

500
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,640
So yeah, I think what you speak 
just now is really, really true,

501
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:13,600
right? 
Leaders should care about people

502
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,960
more, right? 
Every decision that leaders 

503
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,640
take, I think they should also 
think about the implications to 

504
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,440
the people, because most likely 
the people are the one who get 

505
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:23,080
affected. 
Yes. 

506
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,680
And by the way, when we say 
people, the typical 

507
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,520
interpretation is the team, 
because that is the unit we 

508
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,400
typically talk about. 
But managers are people too, in 

509
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,360
case we haven't noticed, 
customers or people too, they 

510
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:39,280
have complete lives and wants 
and needs and frustrations. 

511
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,000
And they would really love not 
to have to use our product. 

512
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,360
But you know, the good outweighs
the bad. 

513
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,400
And our sea levels, they don't 
get it. 

514
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,520
But they're people too. 
They have fears, they have 

515
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,960
wants, they have constraints. 
So that that's really what it 

516
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,440
means. 
Yep, thanks for the pluck here. 

517
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:57,720
I think it's very important, 
right? 

518
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,480
Don't think about people as just
the employees, the staff who are

519
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,520
working on the problem, right. 
But also think about the 

520
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,680
managers, the customers and so 
the executive leaders, right? 

521
00:27:08,120 --> 00:27:10,840
So for delivering better 
results, apart from system 

522
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,360
thinking, improving ways of 
working, I think the most 

523
00:27:13,360 --> 00:27:16,160
important thing also like coming
up with a model of framework for

524
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,680
people to follow, right? 
It's like a playbook, some 

525
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,040
people say. 
And in your book you mentioned 

526
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,040
this model called Square model. 
Maybe let's go through your 

527
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,960
model and maybe elaborate a 
little bit more. 

528
00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,520
How does Square work? 
What are the kind of the things 

529
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,720
that we can learn from this? 
So Square is basically the 

530
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,000
entire subject matter of the 
book and it has several 

531
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,840
components. 
One of them is the first of the 

532
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,960
realization that we care about 
the fitness for purpose and we 

533
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:43,120
want to improve it by in 
operating the ways of working. 

534
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,760
So one of the components is what
is fitness even made-up of? 

535
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,880
Because it's pretty vague. 
I mean even think about fitness 

536
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,240
of physical body, right. 
There is agility and speed and 

537
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,040
flexibility and there's a whole 
bunch of stuff there. 

538
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:58,360
It's not just unfit. 
So I define six aspects of 

539
00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:03,720
fitness which, contrary to a lot
of what I saw out there, is not 

540
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,120
about how will you track to a 
particular process framework, 

541
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:11,960
How will you do Scrum, how will 
you do safe, how will you do 

542
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,640
this or that. 
But for your system to be fit, 

543
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,760
it needs to have its kind of 
outward looking aspects at a 

544
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:23,360
certain level, its throughput of
delivery, the outcomes it 

545
00:28:23,360 --> 00:28:27,080
accomplishes, the timeliness of 
its deliveries, how adaptable it

546
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,640
is, how consistent it is and how
cost efficient. 

547
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:36,160
Actually, all of these are 
aspects of how the system helps 

548
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,960
the company achieve its mission 
and objectives, which is really 

549
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,480
how I define fitness for 
purpose. 

550
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,240
And so part of Square is also a 
fitness assessment tool. 

551
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:48,840
We can already say this spoiler 
alert here, right? 

552
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:50,800
That's the listeners are going 
to get it right. 

553
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,200
That's fitness assessment tool, 
super simple, takes 10 minutes. 

554
00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,200
It's, I don't know, 15 pages in 
the book because it's like 

555
00:28:58,200 --> 00:28:59,640
mostly examples of how to use 
it. 

556
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,320
Very simple, you don't need 
metrics, you don't need data. 

557
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:08,720
And in 10 minutes you kind of 
rate how these aspects are with 

558
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:13,360
relation to what's optimally 
possible for your system and out

559
00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:18,680
of that you get one O 5 levels. 
So fitness, I discovered it kind

560
00:29:18,680 --> 00:29:22,880
of grows along a scale of five 
levels, 12345, which are really 

561
00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:26,600
characterized by, again how well
it helps the company achieve its

562
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,880
objectives and mention for 
instance, a Level 2 system. 

563
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,680
And those are I think the most 
common. 

564
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,720
A Level 2 system helps achieve 
the objectives, but it's not 

565
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,640
effective or efficient enough. 
Or a Level 3 results are 

566
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,160
satisfactory, but they're really
dependent on just a few people 

567
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,440
who make all the big decisions. 
So it's sort of defined by the 

568
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:49,680
risk there. 
Another element in square is, 

569
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:51,880
once we know the level, what do 
we do? 

570
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,120
And there are 10 strategies. 
And what's really groundbreaking

571
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,600
about this model is how it 
sequences the strategies, 

572
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,840
because our listener is. 
When you hear about them, or 

573
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,720
when you read about them, many 
of them won't surprise you. 

574
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:08,000
But the cardinal sin that we 
commit all the time is that we 

575
00:30:08,080 --> 00:30:11,360
overwhelm teams with change. 
We put people in cross 

576
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:14,800
functional teams and we give 
them the boards and we expect 

577
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,080
this type of velocity and we 
want to write our unit test and 

578
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,240
everybody's in meeting, it's 
planning together and what's 

579
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:21,800
not. 
And I've been guilty of doing 

580
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,320
the same thing for years in 
terms of, you know, just 

581
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,760
creating a whole lot of change 
at the same time. 

582
00:30:26,760 --> 00:30:30,640
And human systems, social, 
technical, like you said, they 

583
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,360
have limited capacity. 
So that brings up something 

584
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,280
interesting. 
A lot of leaders know that, you 

585
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:37,880
know, you don't build Rome in a 
day, right? 

586
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:39,600
So you do have to choose what to
do for a second. 

587
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:44,160
Third, And what this model says 
is what is the sequence of doing

588
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,960
things, For instance, to get 
from level 2 to Level 3, one of 

589
00:30:47,960 --> 00:30:51,720
the strategies is to stabilize 
the system, to use Deming 

590
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,240
terminology, it's to reduce the 
variation and eliminate special 

591
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,520
causes. 
But it's more than that. 

592
00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:00,480
It creates the realistic 
expectations for you know how 

593
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,800
inputs transform into outputs, 
how your requirements and 

594
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,600
projects and epics and 
commitments and road maps. 

595
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,440
You know kind of when and in 
what shape will you get things 

596
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,400
right. 
So if you can have, you know, a 

597
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,600
sort of good balance there, your
system is stable. 

598
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,600
OK, well, how do you do that? 
Well, there's plenty of good 

599
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:18,640
ideas from Kanban, from agile, 
from lean. 

600
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,680
The nice thing is they all fully
apply, even if you use 

601
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,680
waterfall, which is not a bad 
word. 

602
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,400
But what the model says is you 
do this at level two. 

603
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:28,840
You don't do this when you're 
level one. 

604
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,760
At level 1, before you ever got 
to level 2, you had to manage 

605
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,760
your project portfolio 
strategically, meaning you 

606
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:40,360
cannot overwhelm the teams with 
too much work at the same time. 

607
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:43,040
So you can limit WIP and 
visualize and again common 

608
00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,400
ideas, but you first have to 
limit again your portfolio WIP 

609
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:51,000
to really manage it to capacity,
manage it strategically and only

610
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,240
then all the team level stuff 
that everybody does like with 

611
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,680
their content boards and their 
lead times and this and that 

612
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:01,640
only then it would even stick. 
We kind of do things backwards 

613
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:04,760
because managing the product 
portfolio takes a lot of work 

614
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:07,240
from senior managers and a lot 
of accountability and a lot of 

615
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,760
saying no and not yet. 
And you know it's tied to 

616
00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:12,480
managers objectives and OK Rs 
and what have you. 

617
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,040
So it's sort of easy. 
Hey teams, you just do this 

618
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:16,720
thing, but it won't matter as 
much. 

619
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:20,320
It won't stick as much. 
It will quickly kind of degrade 

620
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:23,520
if the teams keep getting 
overwhelmed and you keep 

621
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,040
reprioritizing and you keep 
running escalations. 

622
00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:30,640
So there's 10 strategies in all.
You need 2 to go up from level 

623
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,040
1-2, from level 2-3, from Level 
3, and three from level 4. 

624
00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,440
But the other big deal is that 
you need to apply them across 

625
00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:39,760
the system. 
It's not going to be any good 

626
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,720
just doing something in your 
engineering teams, even if you 

627
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,960
have cross functional teams and 
in every team you got the 

628
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:48,840
product owner. 
Let's say, let's say you have 

629
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:51,000
five teams and you have 5 POS, 
right? 

630
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,160
So it's like textbook Chrome. 
If all you're changing is how 

631
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:58,280
the engineers behave or some of 
the choices they make in terms 

632
00:32:58,280 --> 00:33:02,800
of producing good code, but the 
POS still act in a bit of a 

633
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:06,240
different way, or like how they 
acted a month ago, you're going 

634
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,240
to run into trouble and you're 
not going to get the improvement

635
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,640
that you're looking for. 
You might get some temporary 

636
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,360
improvement, but because of 
those balancing loops, things 

637
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:16,880
are going to fall down pretty 
quickly. 

638
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,880
So we gave one example. 
Did we give before unit testing?

639
00:33:19,920 --> 00:33:22,520
How will that idea dies? 
Another idea that dies on the 

640
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,400
product side is experimentation.
So you might have a product 

641
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,560
manager, say we need to 
experiment and do AB testing, 

642
00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:31,200
and let's buy this platform and 
do feature flags and whatever. 

643
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,000
But if management still wants 
you to commit to a lot of 

644
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,720
things, if your reward structure
has to do with executing on a 

645
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,240
backlog as opposed to proving 
what should not be done, if you 

646
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,440
still measure velocity on 
things, but experiments, we 

647
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,920
should measure them differently,
then, you know, people respond 

648
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,320
to the pressures from the 
environment. 

649
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,600
We might think of pressures as 
incentives or constraints, but 

650
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,400
it's pressure. 
So we need to make these 

651
00:33:56,400 --> 00:33:58,440
changes. 
And all of these 10 strategies 

652
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,760
are very much about changes that
we make across the system. 

653
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:05,400
And the way we carry them out is
by having leaders just work with

654
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:06,960
each other. 
It's that simple. 

655
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:09,920
Thanks for the overview of the 
Square model, right? 

656
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,520
I'm sure it's a lot for 
listeners to catch up, but don't

657
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,880
worry Jill. 
Later on we'll share the summary

658
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,960
of the book, right and also give
you the the free assessment so 

659
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,679
that you can understand where 
you are in your current 

660
00:34:21,679 --> 00:34:24,880
situation and what kind of 
levels that are out there for 

661
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,480
you to aspire to. 
So you touch on a little bit 

662
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,360
more about few strategies, 
right. 

663
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:31,320
There are 10 strategies in total
for the book. 

664
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:34,639
So maybe we won't be able to 
cover all of them for sure, but 

665
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:37,159
maybe we can cover some more. 
So the first you have already 

666
00:34:37,159 --> 00:34:39,960
mentioned about managing the 
project portfolio, right, with 

667
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,280
greater strategic control. 
So in a sense some people also 

668
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,600
understand this like limit work 
in progress, right? 

669
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,679
Not to have too many in the 
companies at the same time. 

670
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,760
And then the second strategy is 
actually to design way of 

671
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,239
working based on what matters 
most for achieving the mission 

672
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,680
and objectives. 
My favorite. 

673
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,240
This is my favorite. 
So what's the big deal? 

674
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,360
So we talked earlier about what 
the way of working is, right? 

675
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,240
So again, mine's the tactic. 
Structure, process isn't that 

676
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,200
companies will sometimes 
restructure. 

677
00:35:10,240 --> 00:35:13,680
Sometimes they'll transform. 
They'll hire a, let's say middle

678
00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,680
manager or a senior manager who 
says hey, I know how to do this 

679
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,320
stuff and you know creates a new
structure and creates A 

680
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:21,760
transformation and a journey and
and what not. 

681
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,680
The question is what is the 
target state? 

682
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,080
How will we come out of this? 
What structure will we have? 

683
00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,120
What process will we have? 
How will we engage with each 

684
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,680
other? 
What I suggest in the book, and 

685
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,440
this is really how I work with 
clients, is you want to design 

686
00:35:37,440 --> 00:35:40,800
this rationally. 
And if we go back to what I said

687
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,880
before, values, beliefs give 
rise to principles give rise to 

688
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:45,720
tactics. 
You basically follow this flow. 

689
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:50,440
You articulate collaboratively 
what we should be optimizing for

690
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,440
if we're to be successful. 
You kind of validate this 

691
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,320
against your model of the world,
your beliefs like what you think

692
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,840
is going on here and so on and 
so forth. 

693
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,720
This is explained in the book. 
What comes out of this is a 

694
00:36:02,720 --> 00:36:06,160
custom design. 
This is super different from 

695
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:10,320
what I'm going to say 99% of the
world does, which is to go with 

696
00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,080
the popular or familiar or 
certified or. 

697
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,120
I've done this in my previous 
company and this is not 

698
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:21,680
necessarily bad because you know
if you work in a similar setting

699
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:26,800
then it might make sense to have
a similar type of setup, right? 

700
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,360
But there's a limit to how 
similar those are. 

701
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:31,680
And so every company is 
different. 

702
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,800
You can be a tech company, a 
product company, staffed with 

703
00:36:36,240 --> 00:36:40,680
super intelligent people, gifted
developers and so on, but 

704
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,920
they're different because 
they're different humans and 

705
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:45,880
you've hired them, you know, 
based on a certain company 

706
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,800
culture and your business 
landscape is different and the 

707
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,280
constraints that you have are 
different. 

708
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,640
And the pressure from the 
market, the pressure from the 

709
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:58,200
board, your legacy situation, 
all of these complicate things. 

710
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:02,760
So I just don't see how it's 
possible to say let's just take 

711
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,280
Scrum, let's just take safe or 
for that matter, let's just take

712
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:09,480
Kanban and start where you are, 
right? 

713
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:12,760
That's how Kanban does it and 
sort of iterate our way. 

714
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,720
I think it needs to be a bit 
more holistically designed. 

715
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:19,600
And let me tell you, this 
doesn't take long. 

716
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,920
This is most of not most, but 
this is a step I've done so many

717
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:25,800
times with my clients. 
I mean you're looking at like a 

718
00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,960
day or two of work seriously. 
Might be spread out across a few

719
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:32,560
meetings, but that's it now, not
what you end up with. 

720
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:34,080
It might happen to look like 
Scrum. 

721
00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:35,880
If that's a good fit, that's 
fine. 

722
00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,280
I've had clients like that or it
might look like nothing in 

723
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:41,320
particular. 
I have had clients like that 

724
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:42,320
too. 
And. 

725
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,320
But The thing is, it's not a mix
and match. 

726
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:48,480
It's not a pick air quotes for 
people not seeing the video. 

727
00:37:48,720 --> 00:37:52,280
Pick best practices and just put
them together. 

728
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,520
It doesn't work that way. 
You start by identifying your 

729
00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:58,480
values and because that's what 
will make you succeed, not a 

730
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:02,040
backlog in the daily stand up. 
And based on your values and 

731
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:05,160
again the context for them, 
which is the beliefs based on 

732
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:06,520
that, you come up with the 
structure. 

733
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:08,440
You don't need to be a process 
expert. 

734
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,800
It helps, but you don't really 
need to be one. 

735
00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,160
It helps to have somebody who 
kind of gets, who has process, 

736
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:20,640
education or theory in the room,
which is really why I make a 

737
00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:21,960
living. 
But that's it. 

738
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,200
And the other thing that's 
remarkable about this is that 

739
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:30,720
you end up with a fairly simple 
and informal process because you

740
00:38:30,720 --> 00:38:34,680
start with OK values principles.
Yeah. 

741
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,400
So we want to optimize for 
adaptation and we want to really

742
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,160
be collaborative with our 
customers. 

743
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,760
And therefore, we're going to do
short cycles and we're going to 

744
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,960
do quick reviews and quick and 
dirty prototypes and I don't 

745
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:49,600
know, whatever. 
And then you don't need to worry

746
00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:55,360
about little things like, OK, So
what exactly do we need to do 

747
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:57,560
our code reviews for? 
Of course your code reviews are 

748
00:38:57,560 --> 00:39:00,880
important, but they will be so 
easy to do, like to define the 

749
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:04,600
standard for code review after 
you've designed the framework, 

750
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,240
as opposed to saying no no no, 
let's look for. 

751
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:10,400
Let's Google for the most 
comprehensive code review thing 

752
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,960
ever and just pluck it in. 
Or you might realize that doing 

753
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:17,880
pull requests slows you down. 
Because in your context, if you 

754
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,560
want to minimize delays, why do 
them asynchronously? 

755
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:24,360
If you can just call your a 
colleague over or share a screen

756
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:27,760
and say, hey take a look, I'm 
not telling you not biasing you 

757
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:31,280
take a look and then we'll have 
a conversation that will reduce 

758
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,200
your delays. 
That's the big deal with 

759
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:36,280
designing your way of working 
and it creates so much 

760
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,840
engagement, it shows trust and 
it shows that you know, autonomy

761
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:43,280
and safety to the extent we have
them are for real. 

762
00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:45,880
It's a big deal. 
But The thing is, you will not 

763
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,920
be able to graduate much past 
Level 2 if you got there on a 

764
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:53,080
shaky way of working. 
And I see this all the time. 

765
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,400
Companies call me up and they 
say, well, so we've got in 

766
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:57,800
whatever, let's say Scrum, just 
because it's popular. 

767
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,680
We got Scrum and it things are 
not great. 

768
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,440
Yes, we have sprints, yes, we 
have deliverables every two 

769
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,240
weeks, but things are not great.
And I look inside and I see, 

770
00:40:07,240 --> 00:40:11,480
yeah, you know, scrum could be a
good fit if it were modified, if

771
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,640
other things were in place that 
bolstered it. 

772
00:40:15,080 --> 00:40:18,360
Maybe if we took away a couple 
of things that's really all it 

773
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,640
takes. 
But instead of being reactive, 

774
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,760
you can just. 
You know, take a day out of your

775
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,480
you know your team's life and 
say, well, let's just design our

776
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:27,880
thing. 
Right. 

777
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,320
So I think those two strategies 
are the key, so-called key 

778
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:35,320
strategies, right, for you to 
move from level 1 to level 2, 

779
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:37,120
right. 
So again just to recap, right, 

780
00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:40,160
the first strategy is to manage 
the project portfolio for rater 

781
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,640
strategy control and the second 
one is about designing the way 

782
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:47,120
of working that can help you to 
achieve the company's missions 

783
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:50,600
and objectives. 
So after level one, hopefully 

784
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,600
people have moved on to level 2.
You mentioned maybe most 

785
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,800
companies are in this level. 
So there are two strategies you 

786
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,680
kind of like cover a little bit 
on the first one to stabilize 

787
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,400
the system. 
The other one is about 

788
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,360
establishing clear and 
appropriate decision making. 

789
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:06,840
So maybe tell us a little bit 
more about this strategy. 

790
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,440
Yeah, So what happens at what 
companies? 

791
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,360
Well, not companies. 
Systems reach level 2 is they 

792
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:14,160
they tend to have gaps in 
decision making. 

793
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,640
Again, this is not to pick on 
Scrum. 

794
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:20,160
Scrum is actually fairly clear, 
but I'm just saying what I see 

795
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:23,800
out there in the wild, you can 
have a meeting at the beginning 

796
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:27,680
of a Sprint or release cycle or 
something, and you can set a 

797
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,960
date for big release, maybe not 
just out of a Sprint, but 

798
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:32,720
something like big and 
impactful. 

799
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,560
OK, so we know who gets to set 
that date. 

800
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,280
What happens if we're midway 
through the release and we 

801
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,320
discover that there is, I don't 
know, a ton more work to do and 

802
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:44,400
quality is kind of here and 
there and we need to shift the 

803
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:45,800
date. 
Who makes that call? 

804
00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:50,200
So again, Scrum has something to
say about that, but I'm looking 

805
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,320
at what's your reality in your 
specific organization with your 

806
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:56,600
specific people and it's 
specific chain of command and 

807
00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:00,680
culture and this and that. 
And what happens is that in many

808
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,760
of those situations, this 
example, and there's a bunch 

809
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,360
more, they don't have good 
answers. 

810
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,800
Is it the Product owner? 
Is it the Director of 

811
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,600
engineering? 
Is it the business sponsor? 

812
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:11,760
Who is it? 
Is it all of them together? 

813
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:14,520
If it is, does one decide? 
Is it consensus? 

814
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,200
How is it we don't know. 
So sometimes we default to 

815
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,800
things like cultural norms or 
the chain of command. 

816
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:24,200
The strategy is simply this. 
Every product impacting decision

817
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,160
needs to have a home. 
So list them out, and if some of

818
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:29,280
them don't have a home, decide 
who makes it and how. 

819
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:31,200
That's it. 
I'm not telling you to decide 

820
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,240
what's consensus and what not. 
Just make sure that they have a 

821
00:42:34,240 --> 00:42:37,560
home so we don't end up in this 
situation when some decisions 

822
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:41,680
get overturned or not really 
implemented or they're just kind

823
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,440
of vague because we just didn't 
make them properly. 

824
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:47,880
I want you to make them properly
and maybe be wrong, this will 

825
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:51,120
happen instead of just kind of, 
you know, half assed them. 

826
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,360
So this is what you need to do 
to get to Level 3. 

827
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,200
So at Level 3, again, results 
are satisfactory but sort of 

828
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:01,760
dependent on a few key people. 
Now those key people are usually

829
00:43:01,760 --> 00:43:04,600
not a team. 
They might be a product lead, an

830
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,800
architect, a director of 
engineering, someone like that. 

831
00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:10,720
They don't act as a team, but 
they basically hold the place up

832
00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:12,280
and they make all the big 
decisions. 

833
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:16,680
So what we want to get to level 
4 are three things. 

834
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:22,200
One of them is to, and this is 
the beginning of what we do, is 

835
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:25,880
to increase the safety and the 
teamwork and the collaboration. 

836
00:43:26,200 --> 00:43:29,920
A lot of systems reach Level 3. 
They have so-called teams, air 

837
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:31,680
quotes, but those are not teams 
that are groups. 

838
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:35,000
They don't act as teams. 
Now is the time to fix that. 

839
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,960
People don't collaborate enough,
not just within their teams, but

840
00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:40,520
they don't collaborate across 
teams. 

841
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:42,760
They go through the hierarchy. 
We need to fix that. 

842
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:44,640
We all need to make it a three 
for all. 

843
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:47,720
That's not the goal at all. 
But we need to bring it to a 

844
00:43:47,720 --> 00:43:50,680
point where people feel 
comfortable to contribute. 

845
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:53,040
If something needs done, it 
needs to be done. 

846
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:56,000
It's that simple. 
Once we have implemented this 

847
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,160
strategy, again, just enough. 
The other one we want to do is 

848
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:01,880
to start the fairing commitments
and increasing release 

849
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:04,680
frequency. 
So this does not mean that you 

850
00:44:04,680 --> 00:44:06,080
need to go to continuous 
delivery. 

851
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:09,240
That's not the point at all. 
You need to make less 

852
00:44:09,240 --> 00:44:13,200
commitments to what exactly and 
how you will deliver when. 

853
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,800
You need to relax some of these 
because the more of them that 

854
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,800
you have, the less freedom to 
move you have, which means the 

855
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,960
less fit the system is. 
So this is super situational. 

856
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:26,800
If you read this in the book, 
it's not like I'm telling you do

857
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,960
this, but I am telling you if 
you're for instance, if your 

858
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:33,120
releases are every six months, 
consider going to every two 

859
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,440
months or three months. 
If you release every quarter, 

860
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:40,200
let's say you do safe and maybe 
you have some big big release at

861
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,240
the end of the quarter, maybe 
you can also have interim 

862
00:44:43,240 --> 00:44:45,480
releases. 
Maybe this is not your 

863
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:47,920
situation, so don't bother, 
don't worry about it. 

864
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:51,440
But if it helps you become more 
fit, do this. 

865
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:54,040
So these two kind of go hand in 
hand. 

866
00:44:54,040 --> 00:44:57,240
But the big idea is to 1st defer
more of the commitments because 

867
00:44:57,240 --> 00:44:59,680
they have ramifications across 
the company. 

868
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,920
Every commitment you make, 
effects, marketing and customer 

869
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,280
support and finance is going to 
care and whatnot. 

870
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:09,240
So we need to work with them. 
And the third thing is to really

871
00:45:09,240 --> 00:45:12,040
engage people in planning. 
So it's not just always the same

872
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,240
people deciding what gets on a 
plan. 

873
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,000
You probably already have teams 
sitting in planning meetings 

874
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:21,640
like from Level 2, but typically
what's still happening is that 

875
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,040
they don't actually contribute 
significantly and that's what we

876
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,080
want to change. 
So you do all of these and and 

877
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,360
by the way, every strategy, it's
not like you need to do it to 

878
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,920
perfection. 
The book actually says how far 

879
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,160
you need to go. 
Like what would you see if 

880
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:36,080
you've done enough so that it's 
done its part. 

881
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:38,040
So we're not looking for 
perfection. 

882
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,080
There's really no need. 
But each strategy does have a 

883
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,680
threshold and if you kind of 
stopped before or you don't 

884
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:46,760
really ingrain it, it needs to 
become second nature. 

885
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,040
Then you won't be sustainable at
your next level. 

886
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,400
Thanks for overview of the Level
3 strategies, right? 

887
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,160
So I'm sure there are plenty of 
things that people should learn 

888
00:45:57,160 --> 00:45:59,800
from the book, right? 
Maybe one last before we wrap up

889
00:45:59,800 --> 00:46:02,560
at the end later on, right. 
So people understand about this 

890
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:05,440
model, they understand about 
system thinking now and the way 

891
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,400
of working, how important it is,
how to get started, right. 

892
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,600
So, assuming that all 
organizations are in the chaotic

893
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,000
moment at this point in time, 
right, how can they start? 

894
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,400
You know, using your book or 
using your strategies? 

895
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,240
So you start by getting together
with colleagues that are in the 

896
00:46:22,240 --> 00:46:24,000
system. 
You make sure you're clear about

897
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,880
the boundaries of the system. 
So who's in it? 

898
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,480
Again, it's not just a bunch of 
engineers. 

899
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:32,800
It's also it's everybody who is 
part of making and delivering 

900
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,040
your product. 
Again, think movie, credit role,

901
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,240
do the assessment together, 
start it on your own so you 

902
00:46:39,240 --> 00:46:42,600
don't bias each other and then 
compare your notes because that 

903
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:45,000
will show you how aligned you 
are on how things need to be and

904
00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,200
how they are right now. 
And based on the level you're 

905
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,560
at. 
See if the strategies from the 

906
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:52,120
lower levels are really baked 
in. 

907
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:56,160
If they're not, fixed that in 
ascending order and then turn 

908
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,280
your attention to the strategies
from this level. 

909
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,680
I think that's a pretty good way
to summarize how we can get 

910
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:03,440
started, right? 
So of course you need to 

911
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:04,960
understand the system first, 
right? 

912
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:06,960
Not just optimizing at the team 
level. 

913
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,440
Yes, and by the way, I know 
everybody loves their metrics. 

914
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,920
One reason my model does not use
metrics, I mean, it does 

915
00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:17,240
recommend a few for some things,
but it doesn't rely on metrics 

916
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:20,200
to know where you are, like what
your current fitness level is, 

917
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:24,880
because nobody has a complete 
set of metrics that covers 

918
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:27,640
everything about systems 
fitness. 

919
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,520
And it is accurate. 
It's not garbage in, garbage 

920
00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,120
out, and it didn't get funched 
and played with. 

921
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,680
So it's like, you know, if you 
look at Dora metrics, they're 

922
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:38,960
awesome, but they're just one 
side of your system. 

923
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,360
They don't talk about did your 
features actually make a 

924
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,120
difference and are you being 
cost efficient about it And how 

925
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:47,920
adaptive are you? 
They don't. 

926
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,320
That's not what they were 
supposed to do. 

927
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,120
So yes, there's a whole bunch 
of, you know, frameworks and 

928
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:56,000
this and that, but people get 
into so much trouble and they 

929
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:59,240
make such headaches for 
themselves trying to get just 

930
00:47:59,240 --> 00:48:02,320
the right metrics and so on. 
And I was looking for something 

931
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,880
that can be, you know, quick and
useful enough. 

932
00:48:05,240 --> 00:48:07,920
Am I 20 kilos overweight or 10 
overweight? 

933
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,360
I could use that information. 
If I'm 20 overweight, I'll do 

934
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:12,680
this. 
If I'm 10 overweight, I'll do 

935
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:14,200
that. 
As simple as that. 

936
00:48:15,000 --> 00:48:17,680
Yeah, I think we all want to 
chase for silver bullets, right,

937
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,880
and want to have precision, so 
to speak. 

938
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:22,760
So that's why all these metrics,
you know, some people chase for 

939
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:24,400
that, right. 
What's the industry best 

940
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,520
practice and you know, just 
follow and implement that in the

941
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:29,280
organization. 
But I think like what you 

942
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,160
mentioned, right, system has a 
lot of dimensions, it's not just

943
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:34,560
one aspect. 
And actually capturing metrics 

944
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,880
is also difficult and could be 
expensive as well and in the end

945
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,120
it may not. 
Be accurate, yes. 

946
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:42,720
Accurate, but also sometimes 
partial, right? 

947
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:48,360
And there's something else. 
Every time you have a metric and

948
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:51,600
it has management's attention, 
maybe it comes up in management 

949
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:57,600
meetings or it's somehow has to 
do with allocation of budgets or

950
00:48:57,720 --> 00:49:01,200
rewards or what have you. 
People will modify their 

951
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:04,240
behavior. 
Like if you have velocity X, if 

952
00:49:04,240 --> 00:49:07,360
you measure velocity at all and 
you want to increase it, 

953
00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,760
everybody is going to infer that
velocity is important, so 

954
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:14,320
they'll work on increasing it at
the expense of something. 

955
00:49:14,560 --> 00:49:17,480
I don't know what that is. 
I know what usually is, but I 

956
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:19,200
don't know what it's going to be
in your case. 

957
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:23,520
Or what's another metric. 
Escape defects, Escape defects 

958
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,160
are really, you know, that's a 
good metric to know, right, the 

959
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:27,760
defects that you discover in 
production. 

960
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,320
But what do you do about it? 
Do you use it as a signal for 

961
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,280
changing the way of working so 
that you're better? 

962
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,600
Or do you use it in a blaming 
way or in a way to put people on

963
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,160
improvement plans or I don't 
know what, but every metric is 

964
00:49:41,160 --> 00:49:43,560
going to have some form of 
consequence. 

965
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,440
And maybe AI can do this for us,
but we are not in a position to 

966
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:51,320
know what all those consequences
are going to be. 

967
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,920
So I'm not against metrics, but 
I want you to use them with 

968
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:58,360
caution and I want you to have 
just a few and I want you to be 

969
00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:01,960
very careful what you say and 
don't say and do and don't do as

970
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:05,280
a result of a metric. 
So that's why again, this model,

971
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:07,880
it assesses fitness. 
And by the way, also as a 

972
00:50:07,880 --> 00:50:10,560
relative measure, not as an 
absolute. 

973
00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:13,560
It's not like you deploy 50 
times a day, therefore you're 

974
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:16,080
elite. 
No, because it could be that 

975
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,480
deploying 50 times a day is 
totally useless for you. 

976
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:21,760
Yes, your team has built it, but
it actually makes no real 

977
00:50:21,760 --> 00:50:24,560
difference to your business. 
And it could be that deploying 

978
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,040
once a month is perfectly fine 
for your business context. 

979
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,120
And maybe the theoretical 
optimum that is again relevant 

980
00:50:33,120 --> 00:50:34,880
and practical is every two 
weeks. 

981
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,520
OK, so you're not there yet, 
you're not doing great on that 

982
00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:39,760
aspect. 
Fine, but it's not like you're 

983
00:50:39,760 --> 00:50:42,000
doing poorly because it's once a
month and everybody's talking 

984
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,800
continuous delivery. 
Yeah. 

985
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,880
I think don't forget, right? 
People behave as how they're 

986
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:49,400
measured, right? 
So always think consciously the 

987
00:50:49,400 --> 00:50:52,360
kind of impact when you create 
measurements and metrics. 

988
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,800
So, GAIL, thank you so much for 
sharing about your model and 

989
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,200
also delivering better results. 
The book, right. 

990
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:01,120
So for people later on, we'll 
put it in the show notes, right,

991
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:02,720
some of the links that they can 
check out. 

992
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:06,000
I have one last question that I 
would like to ask you before we 

993
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:06,800
end the call. 
Right. 

994
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,040
So this question is called the 
three technical leadership 

995
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,560
system. 
You can think of it just like 

996
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:13,560
advice you want to give to us, 
the listeners. 

997
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:16,760
So maybe if you can share some 
of your 3 technical leadership 

998
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:19,520
system. 
OK, so one of them that will 

999
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,720
come as no surprise because 
we've talked about this 

1000
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,000
regularly. 
Work with your colleagues across

1001
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,080
the system, so not just send 
your silo, make choices with the

1002
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,640
system in mind. 
It's always good to have 

1003
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:33,240
connections, friends who do 
slightly different work, but you

1004
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:37,040
all contribute to the same 
thing, and #2 is really people 

1005
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,080
before process. 
There's a quote from Deming that

1006
00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,600
says that a bad system will beat
a good person every time, 

1007
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:47,960
meaning you can have the most 
wonderful I CS and managers and 

1008
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:51,360
whatnot, but if the system is 
broken, they will not perform at

1009
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:54,960
their best. 
They will struggle, They cause 

1010
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:57,000
mental issues, all sorts of 
things. 

1011
00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:00,400
And the third thing, we haven't 
touched about this today, but 

1012
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,760
it's a big one for me. 
Your words reflect how you 

1013
00:52:03,760 --> 00:52:06,280
think. 
If you ever refer to people as 

1014
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,040
resources, what are you 
communicating by that word? 

1015
00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:13,280
If every work item is a ticket, 
what is that communicating and 

1016
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:16,160
how does that affect the 
motivation of your team? 

1017
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:17,960
I don't know. 
For me, ticket sounds like 

1018
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,680
there's an endless flow of them 
and they're boring. 

1019
00:52:19,680 --> 00:52:23,680
That's that's me. 
If meetings are ceremonies, are 

1020
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,560
you implying that they are 
repetitive and boring, and 

1021
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:28,360
you're doing them because 
somebody told you to? 

1022
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:34,720
Every word you use carries some 
associations and connotations, 

1023
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:37,920
and there are many words that 
we're just used to using, and we

1024
00:52:37,920 --> 00:52:39,600
don't even notice the effect 
that they have. 

1025
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,680
So your words matter. 
Right. 

1026
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:44,120
So I think that's really 
important. 

1027
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,240
Yeah. 
Sometimes we unconsciously pick 

1028
00:52:46,240 --> 00:52:49,600
a word and maybe even like from 
the industry practice, right. 

1029
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:50,920
Ceremonies, right. 
You mentioned. 

1030
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:52,760
So I think some blog posts 
mentioned about that. 

1031
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,000
So I think do choose the correct
words in your context. 

1032
00:52:56,240 --> 00:52:58,560
And especially people have 
different cultural background 

1033
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:01,760
these days and some words 
actually matter a lot more to 

1034
00:53:01,760 --> 00:53:04,480
some cultures. 
So, Yale, for people who would 

1035
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:07,840
like to follow you or maybe ask 
you something online, is there a

1036
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:09,800
place where they can reach out? 
Yeah. 

1037
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:11,760
So the main place to do this is 
LinkedIn. 

1038
00:53:11,760 --> 00:53:14,800
But I think I would like to 
offer and we we mentioned this, 

1039
00:53:14,800 --> 00:53:17,640
I would like to offer or listen 
there is something even better 

1040
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,280
or like a next step, something 
that they can immediately put 

1041
00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:22,280
into use. 
And that's the first chapter of 

1042
00:53:22,280 --> 00:53:24,760
the book. 
It's not an introduction, it's 

1043
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:27,840
actually both foundation for the
rest of the book and you heard 

1044
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,920
good deal about this today, but 
it's also a just enough read if 

1045
00:53:30,920 --> 00:53:33,560
you're a busy leader or your 
boss is a busy leader. 

1046
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,040
So in like the 20 minutes it 
takes to read it, you get all 

1047
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:41,400
the highlights, all the key 
points, whatever strategy is 

1048
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,960
like and you get this in a 
written fashion, right. 

1049
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:49,200
So you can also share that with 
colleagues or executives so you 

1050
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,400
can all develop the same mental 
model. 

1051
00:53:51,720 --> 00:53:54,440
That chapter also includes the 
fitness assessment tool that I 

1052
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:57,400
mentioned, so I've made this 
chapter available to our 

1053
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,560
listeners at a worthy URL. 
It's called Heard on 

1054
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,480
podcast.deliverbetterresultsbook.com.
Right. 

1055
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:06,400
Yeah. 
We'll put in the show notes for 

1056
00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,640
sure, right. 
So yeah, and I've read the 

1057
00:54:08,640 --> 00:54:11,080
chapter one right. 
It's not the introduction kind 

1058
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:12,400
of a chapter. 
Definitely. 

1059
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:15,600
It's very useful by itself. 
So thanks for sharing that for 

1060
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:17,960
the listeners. 
So thank you so much for your 

1061
00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:20,000
time today, Gil. 
I really learn a lot, You know 

1062
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,120
some of the concepts right And I
hope listeners here also learn 

1063
00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:24,800
as well. 
It's been a pleasure. 

1064
00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:29,760
Thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1065
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,160
episode and for staying right 
until the end. 

1066
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,680
If you highly enjoyed it, I 
would appreciate if you share it

1067
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:38,680
with your friends and colleagues
who you think would also benefit

1068
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,440
from listening to this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1069
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,440
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1070
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,480
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot in order to 

1071
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:50,760
grow this podcast better. 
You can also find the full show 

1072
00:54:50,760 --> 00:54:54,000
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at Techly 

1073
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,080
journal dot dev website, 
including the full transcript, 

1074
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,960
interesting quotes, and links to
the resources mentioned from the

1075
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,800
conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1076
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:06,800
subscribe to the show's mailing 
list on Techly journal dot dev 

1077
00:55:07,160 --> 00:55:09,600
to get notified for any future 
episodes. 

1078
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,720
Stay tuned for the next Techly 
Journal episode, and until then,

1079
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:14,440
goodbye.