1 00:00:00,100 --> 00:00:04,600 Most people confuse a technical capability with technology and 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,800 that ultimately technology is a technical capability. 3 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,300 Plus the human outcome that it creates. 4 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,500 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya be Robin. 5 00:00:20,000 --> 00:00:23,900 And you're listening to the tekhelet Juno, the show will be 6 00:00:23,900 --> 00:00:27,200 bringing you the greatest technical leaders practitioners 7 00:00:27,500 --> 00:00:30,800 and thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their 8 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,600 Journey ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to 9 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:38,600 build a highly performing technical team and to make an 10 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:43,200 impact in your personal work. So let's dive into our Journal. 11 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,400 Hello, everyone, it's me. Again, Henry, Surah, one with 12 00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,200 another new episode of the tekhelet journal podcast. 13 00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,300 Thanks for spending your time with me today, listening to this 14 00:00:57,300 --> 00:00:59,900 episode. First of all, to all of you who 15 00:00:59,900 --> 00:01:01,700 are celebrating the Lunar New Year. 16 00:01:01,900 --> 00:01:05,099 Happy Lunar New Year. I'm wishing you great, health, 17 00:01:05,099 --> 00:01:07,600 success and happiness for the new year ahead. 18 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:11,400 For those of you who are new to the podcast, a warm welcome to 19 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:13,200 all of you and thanks for listening. 20 00:01:13,600 --> 00:01:16,400 If you haven't subscribe to the podcast, make sure to subscribe. 21 00:01:16,500 --> 00:01:19,300 Grab the technology, you know, on your favorite podcast apps 22 00:01:19,300 --> 00:01:23,100 such as Spotify, Apple podcast, Google podcast, and even on 23 00:01:23,100 --> 00:01:25,600 YouTube also do check out technology. 24 00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:29,300 No social media channels on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram 25 00:01:29,600 --> 00:01:32,600 where you can find me frequently posting interesting quotes from 26 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,900 each episode and you can also help me to share any interesting 27 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:39,600 quotes that you find insightful, which might also benefit other 28 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,000 people such as your colleagues and friends and together. 29 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:46,200 Hopefully we can continuously increase our level of technical 30 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,900 Leadership and Excellence by listening and learning from all 31 00:01:49,900 --> 00:01:52,000 amazing. Guess that I have on the show. 32 00:01:52,500 --> 00:01:55,000 And for those of you Avid listeners, who would like to 33 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,600 support me and make some contribution, to the production 34 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,000 of this show. Please consider joining as a 35 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,700 patron by visiting technology. No dot f /, Patron. 36 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:07,600 I highly appreciate any kind of support from all of you and your 37 00:02:07,600 --> 00:02:11,000 contribution will definitely help me towards achieving the 38 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,100 goals that I'm currently running for the show. 39 00:02:13,700 --> 00:02:16,300 For today's episode. I am extremely happy. 40 00:02:16,500 --> 00:02:18,800 Share my conversation with Team. Kobe. 41 00:02:19,100 --> 00:02:22,100 The man who was behind the legendary Apple Stores, which 42 00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:24,800 was first designed in 2001, in New York. 43 00:02:25,100 --> 00:02:27,600 I'm sure that many of, you know, and admire the concept and 44 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:30,400 design of the Apple stores with its simple. 45 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,500 Minimalistic glass box style that blurred the boundaries 46 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:35,500 between physical and digital space. 47 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,100 Having come up with such revolutionary and extraordinary 48 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:44,000 design, Tim and his company, a tink is also widely deemed as 49 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,300 the apples best kept secret, what? 50 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,300 King closely with Steve Jobs and have been continuously working 51 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:53,400 with Apple for the past two decades, Tim and his globally 52 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:55,900 recognized and award-winning strategic design firm. 53 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,900 Eight have also been at the Forefront of innovation creating 54 00:02:59,900 --> 00:03:02,800 groundbreaking experiences. For some of the most beloved 55 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:07,700 Brands such as Virgin Atlantic Airways Nike Coke Citibank and 56 00:03:07,700 --> 00:03:10,600 many others. Tim is also a frequent keynote 57 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,800 speaker and speaks on topics surrounding design innovation, 58 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,400 technology and business. Location for many 59 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,500 internationally known forums, he has been featured and recognized 60 00:03:21,500 --> 00:03:24,500 for his work in prominent Publications, like Harvard 61 00:03:24,500 --> 00:03:28,500 Business Review Bloomberg, The Economist the zine and Fast 62 00:03:28,500 --> 00:03:32,100 Company. In this episode, Tim shared how 63 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:35,300 successful Brands built radical impact by creating 64 00:03:35,300 --> 00:03:38,700 groundbreaking human experiences with experience design. 65 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,100 We started off with his journey founding 8 and how he ended up 66 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:46,300 working with Steve Jobs and coming up with the original. 67 00:03:46,400 --> 00:03:50,400 Sign of the iconic Apple's Flagship stores, we then dive 68 00:03:50,400 --> 00:03:53,600 deep into experience design, starting with how important it 69 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,600 is to understand the human outcomes to building the 70 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,000 strategy and tactics to create value with a unique Human 71 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,000 Experience. We then discuss about how Asia 72 00:04:03,000 --> 00:04:06,100 is evolving in terms of experience design and how 73 00:04:06,100 --> 00:04:09,600 important it is for Asia to escape from emulation trap. 74 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,300 We also touch on how covid has been dramatically changing the 75 00:04:13,300 --> 00:04:17,700 world and the potential massive impact of AI and Ml that is yet 76 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:21,500 to be witness towards the end. Tim share insights about some 77 00:04:21,500 --> 00:04:23,900 future trends that he's currently working on to 78 00:04:23,900 --> 00:04:27,000 transform the industries and shape the future in human 79 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,400 connection from retail banking, real estate, telecommunication, 80 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:35,400 and even government, I hope that you will enjoy this great 81 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:36,900 episode. Please. 82 00:04:36,900 --> 00:04:40,600 Consider helping the show in the smallest possible way by leaving 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:44,300 me a rating and review on Apple podcast and other podcast apps 84 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:47,600 that allow you to do. So, those ratings and reviews 85 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,100 are one of the best ways to get this podcast to reach more 86 00:04:51,100 --> 00:04:53,400 listeners. And hopefully the show gets 87 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,300 featured on the podcast platform. 88 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:58,500 I'm also looking forward to hearing any comments and 89 00:04:58,500 --> 00:05:02,500 feedback on the social media or you can also directly send to me 90 00:05:02,500 --> 00:05:05,300 at technology. You know, that death / feedback. 91 00:05:05,700 --> 00:05:09,600 So let's get the episode started right after our sponsor message. 92 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,900 Are you looking for a new cool swag? 93 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:15,000 Technology, you know. Now offers you some swags that 94 00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:19,100 you can purchase online. This wax are printed on demand 95 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:22,700 based on your preference and will be delivered safely to you 96 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:25,300 all over the world where shipping is available. 97 00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:28,400 Check out all the cool tracks available by visiting 98 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:32,500 technology, know the death, / shop and don't forget to break 99 00:05:32,500 --> 00:05:34,900 yourself. Once you receive any of those 100 00:05:34,900 --> 00:05:39,300 tracks. Hey everyone, welcome to another 101 00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:42,800 technique Journal show today. I'm so happy to meet one of the 102 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:46,800 person who I long, admired. We met randomly through some A 103 00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:49,900 DC and their team. Kobe is the guest today. 104 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:53,800 He is well known for his company called eighth inning, and it's 105 00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:56,600 actually deem as Apple's best kept secret. 106 00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,600 So, if you guys don't know about, eighth-inning 107 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:01,900 eighth-inning with the close partner with apple who set up 108 00:06:01,900 --> 00:06:05,900 the first Apple Stores, even the concept, the openings and things 109 00:06:05,900 --> 00:06:09,800 like that team actually work with Steve Jobs closely for 12 110 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:13,100 years and team is also the expert in brand experience, 111 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:16,000 experience design, even architecture and things like 112 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,000 that. So, I'm looking forward really 113 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,000 to the composition today and hope that we can learn a lot of 114 00:06:21,000 --> 00:06:23,900 things about experience design brand experience and how to 115 00:06:23,900 --> 00:06:26,800 implement that in technology. So, welcome to the show. 116 00:06:27,300 --> 00:06:28,700 Hey, thank you. It's great to be here. 117 00:06:28,700 --> 00:06:30,700 Henry. So team in the first place. 118 00:06:30,700 --> 00:06:33,500 Normally, I would ask my guests to share about the career 119 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:36,700 journey and maybe you can highlight some of the turning 120 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:39,600 points or major success that you have had in your career. 121 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,400 So far, sure. We'll just briefly, I founded 122 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,000 our company. Now, 30 years ago in San 123 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,500 Francisco. We're probably best known for 124 00:06:48,500 --> 00:06:51,200 the work with apple. We were hired by Steve when he 125 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,800 came back to the company 1997 to work on product launches. 126 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,400 And probably best known for the Apple retail work, which you 127 00:06:58,407 --> 00:07:00,300 mentioned. I wrote a white paper and gave 128 00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:03,900 it to Steve to look at why Apple should do Flagship retail. 129 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,200 We got started on a whiteboard and worked with him. 130 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,600 Basically when he was healthy through those 12 years up until 131 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:14,100 his passing. We're in our 22nd or 23rd year 132 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:16,500 now and retainer with apple. I've kind of lost track. 133 00:07:16,700 --> 00:07:19,000 But after she passed away, I moved to Singapore. 134 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,500 I live now in Singapore and permanent resident. 135 00:07:21,500 --> 00:07:24,300 Here in Singapore. We've been growing our Studios. 136 00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:28,100 We now have eight locations around the world and work with 137 00:07:28,100 --> 00:07:30,600 some of the leading companies across really every different 138 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:33,700 sector of business. So if you can share maybe the 139 00:07:33,700 --> 00:07:36,400 beginning, why would Steve choose a tink? 140 00:07:36,500 --> 00:07:38,200 Do you have something before that? 141 00:07:38,500 --> 00:07:42,000 So, we were working on the 1996 Olympics? 142 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,500 We designed the Pavilion for Swatch, and we were probably one 143 00:07:45,500 --> 00:07:46,800 of the leading companies. Open. 144 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:50,300 He's at least in the Bay Area, working on exhibitions and 145 00:07:50,300 --> 00:07:52,300 events. And we are originally asked to 146 00:07:52,300 --> 00:07:55,700 launch the colored IMAX. And so he asked us to come and 147 00:07:55,707 --> 00:07:57,700 make a proposal. He wanted something completely 148 00:07:57,700 --> 00:07:59,800 different from the Apple Mac World. 149 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,500 Type of events. We took one look at the colored 150 00:08:02,500 --> 00:08:05,800 IMAX and basically said the only thing we need to do is to put 151 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,600 them on simple forms. Basically create large light 152 00:08:08,600 --> 00:08:12,500 boxes and put the products on light box and let light express 153 00:08:12,500 --> 00:08:15,300 the quality of the product and he fell in love with the fact 154 00:08:15,300 --> 00:08:16,500 that we made the product to here. 155 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,000 Not the booth and then we sort of scaled everything from there 156 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,500 to kind of large landscape scale fixtures in those days. 157 00:08:23,500 --> 00:08:25,700 Almost everything was pretty small and fussy. 158 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,900 And so we just made everything five times larger than it had 159 00:08:28,900 --> 00:08:31,800 normally been suddenly. It gave Apple about gravitas in 160 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,200 the booth that was distinctive and it started become the 161 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:35,900 language for the brand very quickly. 162 00:08:36,299 --> 00:08:38,200 Can you tell us more about a tink? 163 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,100 What do you guys specialize in? And what other brands that 164 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:43,700 you're currently working with? Or maybe past experience past 165 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:47,400 successes? Sure, our Focus Is as you 166 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:49,600 mentioned, looking at branded experience. 167 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:52,800 So we do a lot of strategic work as well as design work. 168 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:54,500 For some of the leading companies. 169 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,000 We focus on designing Human Experience, which is looking at 170 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:00,100 each of those words. And the qualities that they 171 00:09:00,100 --> 00:09:02,300 represent. Our Client List is pretty 172 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:04,700 extensive. We work with Nissan in the 173 00:09:04,700 --> 00:09:07,400 automotive sector. We work with Jaguar, Land Rover. 174 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,900 We work with Tesla. We've worked with a number of 175 00:09:09,900 --> 00:09:13,200 automobile companies in the retail sector, of course, with 176 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,100 apple. That's led to Tiffany and luxury 177 00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:19,000 brands. As well as startups, we work a 178 00:09:19,008 --> 00:09:21,600 lot now with banking. There's a lot of transformation 179 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:24,300 happening in banking. So, we're very actively involved 180 00:09:24,300 --> 00:09:27,000 with some of the larger Banks. We've worked with Citibank and 181 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,400 Barclays and Ock Bank in Turkey, Bangkok Bangkok, in Thailand a 182 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,500 number of others who are engaged in today. 183 00:09:33,500 --> 00:09:36,200 Anyway, I could go through each category, but I think each one 184 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:38,500 of them what we're doing is helping them work. 185 00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:41,700 On the strategy of how their business is transforming and how 186 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:45,100 is technology an enabler to make the experience that people have 187 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:48,100 with their brand, a rich guy. Compelling and relevant to them, 188 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:50,900 right? So it's much like in immersive 189 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:53,900 experience in terms of brand, including the product strategy 190 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:57,300 probably, and how the customers would interact with them, 191 00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,000 including the product, and maybe customer support and things like 192 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:01,000 that. Yeah. 193 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:04,800 So we look at experience, really defined in three Realms. 194 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:07,900 So, the first thing to recognize is everything is about a 195 00:10:07,908 --> 00:10:09,700 relationship. So, if you look at the 196 00:10:09,708 --> 00:10:13,600 relationship between customers and Brands, it's about alignment 197 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,300 of values. The things that brands do for 198 00:10:16,300 --> 00:10:18,600 people. Is what makes them valuable and 199 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,600 so if people can understand what it is, you do it goes a long way 200 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,500 into developing that relationship and people 201 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:29,600 typically respond to a number of different touch points in order 202 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:31,900 to understand the values that accompany has. 203 00:10:32,100 --> 00:10:34,200 So we call those experience Realms. 204 00:10:34,300 --> 00:10:36,600 And that means the communications, that means the 205 00:10:36,600 --> 00:10:39,200 environments, that means the behavior, which the 206 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:42,700 interpersonal, human behavior models that are created, and it 207 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:45,800 means the products and services. So really those four Realms are 208 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:49,400 the primary Touch points that are created between a brand and 209 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:52,000 their customers. So why is it important for a 210 00:10:52,008 --> 00:10:55,000 company or a start-up? In fact to start focusing on 211 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,100 this thing? What do we call this area as 212 00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:58,400 well? Maybe there's a name. 213 00:10:58,900 --> 00:11:00,800 Well, yeah. I mean, we basically help Define 214 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,000 their experience and experience design. 215 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,600 We do something at the beginning of most projects, called an 216 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:08,700 experience master plan, which is outlining how all of these 217 00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,200 different touchpoints make sense with one another. 218 00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:14,100 So that what people feel is really consistent, deep 219 00:11:14,100 --> 00:11:16,200 understanding of what the company is about. 220 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:19,000 If you Go Babel, you understand the stores, the people, the 221 00:11:19,008 --> 00:11:21,300 products and services, the way they communicate. 222 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,300 All of that is expressed in a way that is accessible to 223 00:11:24,300 --> 00:11:27,400 people, but it also conveys the values that the company stands 224 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,900 for. And if you align with those 225 00:11:28,900 --> 00:11:30,700 values, you tend to engage with them. 226 00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:33,100 That's why people talk about irrational, loyalty all the 227 00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:35,000 time. This sort of, why do I always go 228 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,600 out and buy an iPhone? When there might be cheaper or 229 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,600 different products that I may want to buy, but when it goes 230 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:43,800 back to understanding those values and recognizing those 231 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,200 values or the things that are meaningful to you. 232 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,700 That you tend to be a bit more dedicated to that relationship 233 00:11:49,700 --> 00:11:52,600 and that's really across any companies across any marriage, 234 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,100 you name it, it works across Human Relationships. 235 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,000 So what do you think that Apple did so? 236 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,500 Well that can create this irrational loyalty or maybe if 237 00:12:01,500 --> 00:12:04,000 to me is more like Fanatics, you know, like apple friends. 238 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,500 Yeah. Well it goes back to really a 239 00:12:06,508 --> 00:12:09,100 long Legacy of what Steve built during this first time with 240 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:12,000 apple and then ultimately, through see a second time, but I 241 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,000 think historically, there have been a lot of people who really 242 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,100 love Steve and there's been a number of People who really 243 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:19,500 hated Steve. He's sort of Drew this polarity 244 00:12:19,500 --> 00:12:23,100 with people, but a big part of it was he understood technology 245 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,200 differently than almost to the way? 246 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,100 The majority of people I would say think of technology today. 247 00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:32,800 Most people confuse a technical capability with technology and 248 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:35,900 that ultimately technology is a technical capability. 249 00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:38,500 Plus the human outcome that it creates. 250 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,100 So we tend to get into the business of selling the next 251 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:44,700 technical capability that people come up with, you know, whether 252 00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:46,400 we need a foldable phone or not. I don't know. 253 00:12:46,600 --> 00:12:50,300 No, but if it serves an outcome, then it will have value. 254 00:12:50,300 --> 00:12:53,900 And if it doesn't, it becomes a digestible kind of technical 255 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:55,900 capability and we move on to the next thing. 256 00:12:55,900 --> 00:12:59,200 So, I think he tended to look at technology differently. 257 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,000 I think than most people. One of the things that he did 258 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:05,700 was he broke down the walls that used to be constructed around 259 00:13:05,700 --> 00:13:09,000 technology as a sort of protected Zone that only those 260 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,500 who were focused on the engineering could deal with the 261 00:13:11,500 --> 00:13:13,200 tack. He broke that down so that 262 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,600 everyone could have access to that technology. 263 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,300 And I think that was the big Thomas of apple and I think it's 264 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,600 historically been that as a company, but it's this notion 265 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:23,400 that technology should be Democratic. 266 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,300 It should be something for everyone that it shouldn't be in 267 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:28,700 the hands of a few. And I think that that's an 268 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:31,800 incredibly compelling position. And the people who believe in 269 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:34,300 that also tend to believe in the company. 270 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,700 And then from there, it's a question of trust. 271 00:13:36,700 --> 00:13:39,800 Any great brand is about trust. If you say one thing and do 272 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,300 another you're in trouble, so you have to really make sure 273 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,700 what it is. You say you stand for is what 274 00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:48,100 you believe because cuz once you do that, you have to be able to 275 00:13:48,100 --> 00:13:50,800 fulfill against it. I think that's a build loyalty 276 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,700 with people over the years to a level. 277 00:13:52,700 --> 00:13:55,800 That's probably surprised many people because we used to be on 278 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,100 a consumption. Society way of thinking about 279 00:13:58,100 --> 00:13:59,900 the world. We bought the next car with the 280 00:13:59,908 --> 00:14:03,000 next feature and benefit that we had tacked on to it. 281 00:14:03,100 --> 00:14:05,300 But you know, we're starting to get smarter about the things we 282 00:14:05,300 --> 00:14:08,800 consume smarter and more demanding about the brands that 283 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:11,900 we engage with those things than have to come through and be 284 00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:15,000 communicated, so that people can just determine whether they want 285 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,100 to participate with you or not. Becomes the basis for that 286 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:20,100 relationship. Thanks for sharing that. 287 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,900 I mean, this is my first time, hearing technology should not be 288 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:25,700 just capability. The definition of Technology 289 00:14:25,700 --> 00:14:28,300 itself is more the human outcome as well. 290 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:30,500 So I think that's a very good thing to share. 291 00:14:30,500 --> 00:14:32,700 Thanks for that. I also realized that you have 292 00:14:32,700 --> 00:14:35,600 this venture or maybe some part of your business, called X8 293 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,600 Ventures and you always keep using number eight. 294 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:41,400 Is there any particular reason or is it a Chinese? 295 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,000 You know, but station. Good punctuated. 296 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:46,400 Yes. When we started the company. 297 00:14:46,500 --> 00:14:48,400 Be my business partner was from Taiwan. 298 00:14:48,500 --> 00:14:51,800 And so we put my name and her name together and started the 299 00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:54,500 company and it was probably the worst branding decision. 300 00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:56,400 We could have made. No one could pronounce either 301 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:59,200 one of our names and so after the first year, we said, you 302 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:00,900 know, we better change this to something that people 303 00:15:00,900 --> 00:15:03,300 understand. And so, she suggested the name 304 00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:06,700 8, I like the kind of the Symmetry this sort of infinity 305 00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:08,800 aspect of it. And I said, okay, let's try 306 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:10,100 that. We changed the name. 307 00:15:10,100 --> 00:15:12,100 The next year. We are hard by Richard Branson 308 00:15:12,100 --> 00:15:14,300 and Steve Jobs from their mom. I said, okay. 309 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:16,000 I'm not going to question the funk shui at all. 310 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,300 Working just fine. Right? 311 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,700 And I think also that led you to become the apples. 312 00:15:20,700 --> 00:15:24,000 Best kept secret, right? Why was it Dimas secret? 313 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,400 I thought people would know that you guys worked with alcohol, 314 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:28,300 right? Well, yeah, so, you know, 315 00:15:28,300 --> 00:15:29,900 working with companies like apple. 316 00:15:29,900 --> 00:15:32,900 And again, this is many many years now, but particularly when 317 00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:35,800 Steve was alive, we weren't allowed to talk about the work 318 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,100 we did at all. It's all meant to be contained 319 00:15:38,100 --> 00:15:40,500 within our confidentiality agreements and things. 320 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,200 And as the company grew, and as we moved to different office, 321 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,700 and we started having different offices working in similar 322 00:15:45,700 --> 00:15:48,900 sectors and Stuff then more and more people learned about what 323 00:15:48,900 --> 00:15:51,100 we were doing. Many people who had left, Apple 324 00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:53,500 went to another company and hired us to work for those 325 00:15:53,500 --> 00:15:55,500 companies. And so, I think it was The 326 00:15:55,500 --> 00:15:58,500 Economist or someone like that, who coined the phrase, apples 327 00:15:58,500 --> 00:16:01,000 best kept secret, but we're probably really terrible at 328 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:03,200 public relations. We don't talk a whole lot, a 329 00:16:03,208 --> 00:16:05,800 little more so with podcast and things like this, but we're just 330 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,000 not really heavy into. I think intelligent marketing. 331 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,400 I think we tend to work from word of mouth and through 332 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,200 long-term relationships, which we've had with companies around 333 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,900 the world. I think, if I can summarize, You 334 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,800 can probably show it through the results of work rather than the 335 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,500 marketing. So in terms of Apple Stores, I 336 00:16:22,508 --> 00:16:26,200 know that you had run some conferences before and because 337 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,100 of that Steve found you guys, but how did you come up with 338 00:16:29,100 --> 00:16:32,100 that Innovative idea to come up the flagship store, you know, 339 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,000 like the concept of the Apple Stores. 340 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,300 Yeah. Well Apple had traditionally 341 00:16:36,300 --> 00:16:38,700 suffered. We're done work with Nike and 342 00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:42,800 with the North Face and both of them were essentially oems who 343 00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:46,300 sold their product through third-party channels the foot. 344 00:16:46,500 --> 00:16:49,300 Walker's of the world sold, the majority of Nike shoes. 345 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,000 The North Face made Great Outdoor Equipment, but they 346 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:53,900 traditionally didn't have their own stores. 347 00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:56,700 They would sell through dealers. Who carried many different 348 00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:58,500 brands. And what was happening to them, 349 00:16:58,500 --> 00:17:00,700 was they were always being counter sold. 350 00:17:00,700 --> 00:17:03,500 They always had somebody in between the relationship between 351 00:17:03,500 --> 00:17:05,300 their company and their customers. 352 00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:08,099 And we saw that Apple was suffering, basically from the 353 00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,099 same thing. If you were to go into in those 354 00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:14,300 days, it was Fry's Electronics or CompUSA or any of those kind 355 00:17:14,300 --> 00:17:16,400 of things you would have found the device. 356 00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:19,700 Were controlling that relationship and many cases. 357 00:17:19,700 --> 00:17:22,000 People would be driven in by Apple advertising and then 358 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,500 they'd be counter sold to a cheaper product with the 359 00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,500 reseller had a higher margin on. So, we basically frame the 360 00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:30,300 argument that Apple needed to control the relationship with 361 00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:32,600 their customers. We had seen Nike doing that. 362 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,200 They were one of our clients previously. 363 00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:35,900 We had seen the North Face doing that. 364 00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:38,100 They were one of our clients previously in terms of 365 00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,800 developing retail. So it was a natural extension of 366 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,800 the similar solution for the same problem that many companies 367 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:46,300 were experiencing and so Steve read the white. 368 00:17:46,500 --> 00:17:49,500 Paper, we got a call one day from his assistant said, Steve 369 00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:51,400 wants a capabilities presentation. 370 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,000 He'll be there in 30 minutes. He's in the car on the way over. 371 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:56,800 And so he came in and interviewed us and we talked 372 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,700 about what the potential was and got a call back the next day and 373 00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:02,700 said, come down. Let's start working on Apple 374 00:18:02,700 --> 00:18:04,200 retail. We start with a big whiteboard 375 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:06,200 and my business partner and I and Steve. 376 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:09,000 But we were the first people really hired to look at what 377 00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:11,900 Apple retail would become and how did you come up with the 378 00:18:11,900 --> 00:18:14,900 concept of the story self, you know, like quite minimalist and 379 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:18,100 sleek and fancy. That kind of Well, I think in 380 00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:21,300 those days it was interesting time because I think Steve 381 00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:24,300 wasn't an expert on retail. He was still sort of learning. 382 00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:27,400 He had put Mickey Drexler who was formerly at the gap on the 383 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,200 board to talk about retail. When we started developing the 384 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:32,200 program. He would have board members come 385 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:33,700 in. Look at the space and make 386 00:18:33,700 --> 00:18:35,800 comments coming from Mickey's background. 387 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,700 The approach was just a pair of shorts or t-shirts and you put 388 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:41,100 them close together. You have a m circulation and it 389 00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:45,100 looks like a real full Buffet of product and Steve sort of hated 390 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:46,900 that what he wanted was. Space. 391 00:18:46,900 --> 00:18:50,400 And he wanted it to feel different from other retail. 392 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:53,600 And I think this was one of the genius aspects that Steve always 393 00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:54,800 did. He looked at what was 394 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,000 conventional wisdom of a category and looked at how to 395 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,400 differentiate himself from them and I think that was consistent 396 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,800 throughout his career if it's conventional wisdom. 397 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:05,500 That's what everybody's going to be doing. 398 00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,500 And so, you're going to have a hard time to stand out from that 399 00:19:08,500 --> 00:19:11,000 if conventional wisdom is to make everything packed tight 400 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:12,900 together. He should make it open in the 401 00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:14,300 events and stuff that we had designed. 402 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,100 It was very open space. It was Scale. 403 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,100 It had a different spatial quality and I think ultimately 404 00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:23,100 that type of experience he started to see more and more as 405 00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:26,200 what would make apple a distinctive brand and Steve made 406 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,700 all the decisions. We made lots of proposals about 407 00:19:28,700 --> 00:19:32,600 Solutions, but he was The Keeper of the brand, he understood the 408 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,800 qualities and values that Apple should stand for and then the 409 00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,600 design had to figure out how to express those things. 410 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:42,600 How they are, any other biggest lessons or influence from Steve 411 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:46,000 that maybe shape you to what you're doing next, you know, 412 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,500 like In your next project. So life even well, there were 413 00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:52,200 many things when we got to know him pretty well over 12 years 414 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:56,100 how he worked with people. He's notoriously talked about as 415 00:19:56,100 --> 00:19:59,400 being a difficult person to work with, but I think it's more the 416 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,800 limitation of the people working with him than him. 417 00:20:01,900 --> 00:20:04,700 He tended in those days to be, I think intellectually 418 00:20:04,700 --> 00:20:07,400 ambidextrous if that's even a term but you know, somebody 419 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,400 would come to him with a logic and he would track through a 420 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:12,700 logic tree and understand. If there was a bust in that 421 00:20:12,700 --> 00:20:15,000 logic tree or not. He's very used to looking at 422 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:18,100 software and programming and That and so he could figure out 423 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:21,300 if the logic was working or not. And let's assume that the logic 424 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:25,000 was working, then he would turn and look at it intuitively and 425 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,300 he would say, you know, this doesn't feel right or there's 426 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:28,900 something about it doesn't feel right. 427 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:31,800 If you're somebody who's used to doing really good at logic, you 428 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,500 struggle with feedback. That doesn't feel right and 429 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:37,100 likewise, if you're somebody who's really good at intuitive, 430 00:20:37,100 --> 00:20:39,000 kind of understanding of what feels right. 431 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,100 And the logic is a bust, then you're going to have a problem 432 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:43,900 with him. He was notoriously short 433 00:20:43,900 --> 00:20:46,300 tempered certainly, but he was just impatient. 434 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,000 You know, and I think that he was expecting everybody to look 435 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,800 at it, using both parts of the brain and being able to expect 436 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,300 that. He would have solutions that 437 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,000 should address both. And I think that's just marked 438 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,100 somebody who just has the intellectual processing power to 439 00:21:00,100 --> 00:21:02,800 look at problems like that. It sounds really awesome. 440 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,100 You know, you have this so-called. 441 00:21:04,100 --> 00:21:06,400 Oh, what do you call it? Intellectually ambidextrous 442 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,000 having the intellectual capability of logic and also 443 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,000 intuition, so I haven't even really met a person like that, 444 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,300 but maybe one day I would. So Tim you mentioned the term. 445 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:19,100 Experience design. I don't come from the design 446 00:21:19,100 --> 00:21:20,600 background. Can you explain? 447 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,600 What is actually experience design? 448 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,800 Well, I guess it goes back to. How do you create value for us? 449 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,500 We have something called a value creation engine and this is a 450 00:21:29,508 --> 00:21:32,500 structure in the way. We try to frame the problem so 451 00:21:32,500 --> 00:21:35,200 that we can solve the problem but we start with human 452 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,000 outcomes. If you're any designer, the 453 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:41,300 value that you bring to the world is delivering something 454 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:43,700 that has some impact for people turns out. 455 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:45,700 That's also the way you create value. 456 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,400 Akley, so you create value for people, they will tend to 457 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,300 participate in your product and your brand, whatever it may be. 458 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,000 So the first thing we try to do is frame human outcomes. 459 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:57,700 What are the objectives that make sense for your brand? 460 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,700 The things that you stand for and then Define what are the 461 00:22:00,700 --> 00:22:03,400 outcomes that you should be achieving for those people who 462 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:06,300 engage with your brand? The second part is then you form 463 00:22:06,300 --> 00:22:09,900 the strategy and the strategy has to ladder back to those 464 00:22:09,900 --> 00:22:11,500 outcomes. You can have all kinds of 465 00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:13,600 strategies. There's a million strategy 466 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,100 companies out there looking at different ways of doing things 467 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,000 look, Things that other people have done. 468 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,900 But there's a lot of noise in that what you need to be doing, 469 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:23,400 is creating a strategy, the ladders back to the human 470 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,900 outcome. And then the next layer is the 471 00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:29,800 tactic and the tactics that you use have to support the 472 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,100 strategy. So the tactics support the 473 00:22:32,100 --> 00:22:35,900 strategy, the strategy supports the outcomes, I would say, 90% 474 00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:38,100 of the companies who originally come to us. 475 00:22:38,100 --> 00:22:40,600 We'll come to us with a tactical idea. 476 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,200 Some tactic in mind. I saw so-and-so. 477 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,300 Do this particular solution. I want to do that. 478 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:49,000 Ian and so we have to say, Okay, that's an interesting tactic. 479 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,300 Let's put it in the tactic box, but we don't know if it makes 480 00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:55,900 any sense until we have a strategy and outcome definition. 481 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,800 And if it does, then the tactic could make perfect sense. 482 00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:01,100 On the other hand. It could be a complete mistake 483 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:03,400 because it doesn't support your hierarchy. 484 00:23:03,500 --> 00:23:06,500 And so we try to frame experience, design is then the 485 00:23:06,500 --> 00:23:09,400 experience are the different touch points that convey that 486 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,100 strategy and deliver those outcomes. 487 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,400 It seems I guess like a lot of jargon, but it's you know, it's 488 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,100 fundamentally as All three step kind of framework, but if you 489 00:23:19,100 --> 00:23:22,100 put the right pieces in the right place, it's organizing. 490 00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:25,100 The thought is half the battle. And I think that it's been very 491 00:23:25,100 --> 00:23:28,600 helpful for us to develop that approach and to continue to 492 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,500 practice and improve on that approach. 493 00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:32,700 Based on experience, we've had in China experience. 494 00:23:32,700 --> 00:23:35,200 We had in the Middle East experience in North America, and 495 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,700 Europe, and cetera. So it seems to be something that 496 00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:39,900 does relate back to really human nature. 497 00:23:40,100 --> 00:23:42,600 And ultimately, that's what we're dealing with here is how 498 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,900 to get people to behave in a way, with your brand, or with 499 00:23:45,900 --> 00:23:49,500 your Company that's fulfilling and engaging so I can relate 500 00:23:49,500 --> 00:23:52,600 when you mentioned, just now people came out with the tactic. 501 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,900 First is building a product considered a tactic in this 502 00:23:55,900 --> 00:23:58,300 case. Well, in this case, I would say 503 00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:00,800 that your product needs to ladder back to. 504 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:03,200 Does it deliver the outcomes that you hope to achieve. 505 00:24:03,500 --> 00:24:06,300 If so your product which fundamentally is defined in the 506 00:24:06,300 --> 00:24:09,800 strategy layer because you're saying that I need to deliver 507 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,600 this type of thing, this type of experienced for there to be 508 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,200 value and then the product tactic or actually the methods 509 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,200 that Used to deliver that strategy. 510 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,600 So you might say that what I need is a mobile phone. 511 00:24:21,700 --> 00:24:24,800 But within that one of the tactics is that I need an app 512 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:28,300 based system to support my user experience to make my mobile 513 00:24:28,300 --> 00:24:30,900 device valuable or vice versa these days. 514 00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:33,200 It's as much about the software as it is a hardware. 515 00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:36,600 So I think it's how you're framing the point of view and 516 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:39,000 that point of view has to go back to what is the value 517 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:40,800 creation structure that you're working with? 518 00:24:41,500 --> 00:24:43,800 So I can see. I mean, like, terms of startups 519 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,500 these days, many of them. Probably would start with An 520 00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:47,100 idea. OK. 521 00:24:47,100 --> 00:24:49,900 I have this cool idea built a product but probably not 522 00:24:49,900 --> 00:24:53,000 necessarily the value that the one that you're talking about. 523 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:56,000 And is it fair to say for those startups who have built a 524 00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,000 product. Do you work with the founders to 525 00:24:58,000 --> 00:24:59,800 come up with? I don't know, like the vision, 526 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,300 the value for the company and then probably some mission 527 00:25:02,300 --> 00:25:04,500 statements before. You can actually come up with a 528 00:25:04,508 --> 00:25:08,000 strategy and tactics and probably revamping what they 529 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,600 offered initially. Well, yeah, I mean whether you 530 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:14,000 revamp it or whether it needs to evolve in a particular way, a 531 00:25:14,008 --> 00:25:16,600 lot of companies say, well you guys work with all these Big 532 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:19,500 companies, how do you work with small companies or startups and 533 00:25:19,500 --> 00:25:23,000 smes and in fact, startups and smes are much easier than 534 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,000 working with the big guys. The big eyes, have lots of 535 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,000 Legacy problems. They have lots of political 536 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,100 infighting. There's all kinds of static that 537 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:31,600 you don't really encounter in smaller companies. 538 00:25:31,900 --> 00:25:34,300 We have a lot of startups that we work with particularly in our 539 00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:37,300 Venture group, where they come to us and say, we'd like you to 540 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,200 apply those same principles to our business and we don't have 541 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,300 any money to pay you. So we end up with a kind of 542 00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:46,200 equity exchange engagement. But the point is we help them. 543 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:48,600 Them. Align those values in a way that 544 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,900 they can see a clear path to success. 545 00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:54,000 If you look at how companies are creating value you need to have 546 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,100 that product idea of some concept of why you matter and we 547 00:25:57,100 --> 00:26:00,800 really want to question that you need to express it through the 548 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,700 brand values and personality and things that you have. 549 00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:07,600 But what a lot of people get stuck with let's say Steve's 550 00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:09,600 personality. So he was this way or that way 551 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:13,100 as a character and I think that's what the mistake, what he 552 00:26:13,100 --> 00:26:15,800 understood was really, what? Technology was. 553 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,800 And he applied both experience and skill to that. 554 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,300 In order to be successful. I think people tend to think 555 00:26:23,300 --> 00:26:26,900 there's a shortcut to that, and I think experience and skill is 556 00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:30,500 really two parts that are really no make up this relationship of 557 00:26:30,500 --> 00:26:33,500 what makes a successful company. Because a lot of stars may have 558 00:26:33,500 --> 00:26:37,100 a fantastic idea, but they lack some skills or some experience 559 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,300 in a particular decision that will either help them go forward 560 00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:42,500 or go sideways. I think it's important to 561 00:26:42,500 --> 00:26:44,600 understand that. Even with Steve, you took those 562 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:46,900 core things. It wasn't like Like some black 563 00:26:46,900 --> 00:26:49,900 magic where he hypnotized everyone with his salesmanship. 564 00:26:49,900 --> 00:26:52,300 He was a good salesman, but that's under estimating. 565 00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:54,200 I think what really he brought to the table. 566 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:58,200 So I know this Probably sounds a little bit daunting to us, but 567 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,900 if you can summarize for those people who are new to this 568 00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:04,000 concept, how should they start? Is there any framework or 569 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,300 strategy that they can do in order to come up with the 570 00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,100 values? The strategy and align them in 571 00:27:09,100 --> 00:27:11,600 such a way, that is towards a one, clear direct path. 572 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,300 Yeah. I mean, everyone's looking for a 573 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:17,400 formula. I think that Important is the 574 00:27:17,408 --> 00:27:20,100 way ideas come to you. They may come in the shower. 575 00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,700 They may come through a linear, logical process. 576 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:24,500 They're going to come to different people in different 577 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:27,100 ways. The important thing is that if 578 00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:29,700 you have these elements, then how do you structure them? 579 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,200 So it gives you the most advantage to being a company. 580 00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,300 That's delivering a product to a market. 581 00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:39,000 Then you can start to put more structure around the process and 582 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,600 the process is just one part. So it's the process. 583 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,000 The experience you have in making the decisions to getting 584 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,300 from point A to point B, and it's The skill sets that you 585 00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:48,700 have, that allow you to get there. 586 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,000 So I kept hearing a lot of people mentioning about design 587 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,700 thinking, is there any relation design, thinking experience, 588 00:27:54,700 --> 00:27:58,700 designed design thinking has become a buzzword in our view. 589 00:27:58,700 --> 00:28:00,400 It wasn't particularly a new thing. 590 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,400 It's what they teach every designer in school, but it's 591 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,600 just the start. And so you may have a design 592 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,800 thinking process, which is very helpful to have, you identify 593 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,200 ideas to help understand your customer the how to empathize 594 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,100 with the people that you're engaging with. 595 00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:18,600 But you're not done. You've just begun. 596 00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:21,100 People tend to think I do the design thinking process. 597 00:28:21,100 --> 00:28:22,100 Therefore. I must be done. 598 00:28:22,100 --> 00:28:24,100 I've done that. That's the magic bullet or the 599 00:28:24,100 --> 00:28:26,800 Silver Bullet. I'm now ready to go, mint money. 600 00:28:26,900 --> 00:28:29,700 But the reality is design, thinking is just the beginning 601 00:28:29,700 --> 00:28:33,200 of a process that is starting to move you down a path of 602 00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:36,700 leveraging, creativity and Innovation into your business. 603 00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,100 There are many other aspects to that again, design thinking 604 00:28:40,100 --> 00:28:42,900 probably falls under that process headline, whereas 605 00:28:42,900 --> 00:28:46,200 experience and skill are other parts that you need to support. 606 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,800 With but again, it's only the beginning of a design process. 607 00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,600 There's design thinking and then there's designed doing, there's 608 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:55,500 more to it than thinking about it, right there has to be that 609 00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:59,400 skill applied to have the design actually create value these 610 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:00,900 days. It's not just about product. 611 00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:05,400 It could also be services and also maybe just digital version 612 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,500 of product. Is there any difference on 613 00:29:07,500 --> 00:29:10,100 treating each of them? Well, I think there are many 614 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:13,100 differences, but there are also many conditions that are 615 00:29:13,100 --> 00:29:16,200 similar. If you were designing product at 616 00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:18,500 Apple without a software component to it. 617 00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:21,300 It probably would have never pushed the brand to what it was. 618 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,300 And so I tend to look at the hardware and software today as 619 00:29:24,300 --> 00:29:27,900 having a relationship. You will have Pure Play hardware 620 00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:31,600 and pure-play software. But I think that the strength is 621 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:35,600 to me in some hybrid of those two, even if you design an app, 622 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,100 it still has to have an interface on your mobile device 623 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:41,100 that works or it has to have an interface on your computer. 624 00:29:41,100 --> 00:29:44,200 That works to me at ladders back to The Human Experience. 625 00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:48,100 If my experience with it is You see, for me to understand if 626 00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:52,100 it's engaging, if it makes my life better in some form, 627 00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:55,200 whether its base level of convenience or at a higher level 628 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,500 of sort of providing fulfillment and Enlightenment, whatever. 629 00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:02,100 Along that Spectrum, I think you still fundamentally have to 630 00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:04,100 think of Human Experience. You have to think it's human 631 00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:06,700 outcome. And if you achieve that, then it 632 00:30:06,700 --> 00:30:09,200 actually makes all your other design decisions and your 633 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,200 business decisions easier because it gives you some 634 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,700 framework for making decisions, right? 635 00:30:14,700 --> 00:30:17,700 I'm interested for things like Software driven product, like, 636 00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:20,400 for example, you mentioned app. Maybe it's just website, things 637 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,100 like e-commerce, and things like that. 638 00:30:22,100 --> 00:30:24,100 We can see there are a variety of them. 639 00:30:24,100 --> 00:30:26,900 One is probably more need forces, the others but still 640 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,000 people are using them. In this case, does it mean that 641 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:34,000 the value itself is much much higher and people seem to 642 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,700 probably not differentiating much about the interface and 643 00:30:36,700 --> 00:30:38,500 things like that. Is that fair to say? 644 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,800 Well, I think products are still differentiated by interphase 645 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,100 Google's greatest design in the history of the company is a 646 00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:48,000 rectangle, too. Take a search engine and to put 647 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,800 whatever it is, you want into this box, type it and get an 648 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:53,500 answer. It was the most brilliant design 649 00:30:53,500 --> 00:30:54,900 decision. I think that was made in the 650 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:57,200 company. And the reason was it allowed 651 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,400 everyone to participate. I'm old enough to remember all 652 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,600 the other search engines that existed before Google and they 653 00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,000 were complex different factors and you could tweak it and turn 654 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:08,300 it this way and turn it that way. 655 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:10,700 And what you really wanted was just something that you could 656 00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:13,600 write in the box and be happy with, get the answer you were 657 00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,200 looking for, that goes back to understanding Human Nature. 658 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:20,600 Sure, and the adoption, an idea by itself is not Innovation. 659 00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:24,200 It comes back to people have to adopt your idea for you to have 660 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:27,100 create value or to have meaning in terms of what you're doing. 661 00:31:27,300 --> 00:31:30,900 And again, to me that's recognizing that the design 662 00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:34,400 allows you to interface with whatever your product is today, 663 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,100 especially people are far more sophisticated far, more 664 00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:39,500 demanding than they were when all this began. 665 00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,400 So they're that level of sophistication. 666 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,700 If you're not offering something that recognizes those things, as 667 00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:47,500 almost Baseline today in, Ecology, then I think you're 668 00:31:47,500 --> 00:31:49,900 going to struggle and so it's important to go through that 669 00:31:49,900 --> 00:31:52,500 process of developing. What are the aspects of your 670 00:31:52,500 --> 00:31:54,900 offer to me? It's some key things one is, 671 00:31:54,900 --> 00:31:56,100 what is it? What Makes You Different? 672 00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:58,600 What makes it distinctive? And the other one is, how do I 673 00:31:58,608 --> 00:32:00,500 connect with it on an emotional level? 674 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,100 I actually have to care about it today. 675 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,100 Whereas if it's a purely functional thing. 676 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:07,500 I don't necessarily have to care. 677 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,000 I don't have to care about my dog food or my toilet tissue or 678 00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:11,900 whatever. It may be, right. 679 00:32:11,900 --> 00:32:14,500 These are things that are very functional, kind of Baseline 680 00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:17,800 things, but on the other hand, And if a brand makes me feel 681 00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:21,100 something about it, I'm far more inclined to connect with it and 682 00:32:21,100 --> 00:32:22,800 use it. And if they demonstrate that, 683 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,400 they're considering me in the equation of what they're 684 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:27,300 building. That's really where they start 685 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,900 to create value pretty insightful thinking. 686 00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:33,200 I mean, like, I haven't really seen it that way, but the last 687 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,100 one year, it's all about covid. Definitely. 688 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:39,100 Is there anything difference in terms of experience design 689 00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:41,800 because of the covid? I think there's a lot of things 690 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,900 that are against affected by covid. 691 00:32:43,900 --> 00:32:47,100 In Asia. We had Stars before King around 692 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,600 but the year before 2020, no one was still talking about SARS. 693 00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:54,400 So, on one hand, you can say, you know, it came and it went, 694 00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,500 and we kind of forgot about it with covid. 695 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:58,300 Obviously. It's lasting longer, and it's 696 00:32:58,300 --> 00:33:00,000 struggling to get things in hand. 697 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:01,800 But I think was happening through. 698 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,800 This is, there's some realizations about the old way 699 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,000 of doing things that are being fundamentally Challenge from our 700 00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:09,000 businesses. Globally. 701 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,700 There were two aspects of this. The first aspect sort of work 702 00:33:12,700 --> 00:33:16,000 from home, people realize that it's pretty ridiculous to spend 703 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,800 the Amount of time and money that we spend traveling from one 704 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,100 place to another that the whole effort of moving from one place 705 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:25,600 to another is quite expensive. And in some cases difficult. 706 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,100 I may live 10 kilometers from where I work. 707 00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,700 There's this whole dynamic that exists between them. 708 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:33,400 And so on one hand people recognize that maybe we should 709 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,700 question some of our core systems even ladders back to 710 00:33:36,700 --> 00:33:39,700 even Urban Design. We have to start planning work 711 00:33:39,700 --> 00:33:43,100 space within our living space. Do we need to start designing 712 00:33:43,100 --> 00:33:45,700 homes that have workspace as well in the same way we have 713 00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:47,900 kitchen. In closet and living rooms and 714 00:33:47,900 --> 00:33:49,400 things. But then the other side of the 715 00:33:49,408 --> 00:33:53,800 coin is it's made us appreciate each other more and I seen this 716 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,000 as well in our business. There's a reason why countries 717 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,500 put the most extreme criminal elements of their society into 718 00:34:00,500 --> 00:34:03,100 solitary confinement. It's an extreme form of 719 00:34:03,100 --> 00:34:05,600 punishment and that we're social creatures. 720 00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:09,500 If we are left without a way of interacting socially, some 721 00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:12,400 people by their nature, are more comfortable with it than others, 722 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:15,400 but Extreme separation actually has. 723 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,500 I think Mental impact on people's psychology on their 724 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:22,199 happiness, is why we're attracted to having mates versus 725 00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:25,600 living alone in a cave. And I think this idea that the 726 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,699 social infrastructure that we once had has been disrupted, but 727 00:34:29,699 --> 00:34:32,600 it's not to say we still don't need that social infrastructure. 728 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,600 And it's a question of, how does that manifest? 729 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:37,300 How does it come back and create meaning in our lives? 730 00:34:37,500 --> 00:34:39,900 I have a good friend who's very outward person. 731 00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,900 He gets a lot of energy from speaking directly with people. 732 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:46,100 He's been suffering the most during this pandemic because 733 00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:49,500 It's like, you took away oxygen from the way he lives. 734 00:34:49,900 --> 00:34:52,600 There are so many factors that covid is kind of putting out 735 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,300 there for us to understand the amount that we were traveling. 736 00:34:55,300 --> 00:34:57,500 I'm sure many people were traveling, particularly from 737 00:34:57,500 --> 00:35:00,900 Singapore, you tend to travel a lot as a hub here, but the fact 738 00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:03,900 that I've traveled, maybe once in a year is a first for me, 739 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:07,200 probably since college, so I think all of these things make 740 00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:09,800 us question, what are our infrastructure systems? 741 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,800 There's a great book by Thomas Friedman and talks about thank 742 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,500 you for being late. I think it was actually speaking 743 00:35:14,500 --> 00:35:17,100 at Google as well. The a of thank you for being 744 00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:18,600 late. What's interesting about it is 745 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,900 he talks about we're at a point in time where the rate of change 746 00:35:21,900 --> 00:35:25,400 is actually outpacing, our ability to recognize it and 747 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,100 adapt to it before the next change occurs. 748 00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,500 And he thinks this is the first time in human history where 749 00:35:30,500 --> 00:35:33,100 that's occurred. So, usually, when that happens, 750 00:35:33,100 --> 00:35:36,600 we're at a point on exponential growth path of some form of 751 00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,700 dramatic change, and I think part of it is just recognizing 752 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:43,200 that we're probably at that point as a culture as a society 753 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,800 as people. Sounds like an interesting book 754 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,500 if I can ask further. So when the change keeps on 755 00:35:48,500 --> 00:35:51,300 increasing and outpacing us further and further, what do you 756 00:35:51,300 --> 00:35:54,200 think would happen? Well, you can imagine it's going 757 00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,000 to get to a point where you can see today. 758 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,300 A lot of people are sort of locking up your kind of Frozen, 759 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,300 because what they thought was, the norm yesterday is not the 760 00:36:02,308 --> 00:36:05,100 norm today. And so that has a paralyzing 761 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:06,800 effect. It terrifies people. 762 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:08,800 We start having political unrest. 763 00:36:08,900 --> 00:36:10,600 Obviously, the examples in the u.s. 764 00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,800 Today, you start to make people afraid of the world. 765 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:17,500 There is When there's that much anxiety, when there's that much 766 00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:20,600 lack of solutions. To the problem is, when more 767 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,600 fundamental changes start to occur. 768 00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,900 I think that as a designer, it's kind of what we live for we're 769 00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:30,100 designed to deal and adopt and adapt with changing conditions. 770 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:32,900 It's kind of a skill set that we're used to, but if you look 771 00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:36,400 at change in your life, dramatic changes in every person's life 772 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,600 are the hardest things we ever go through loss of a loved one 773 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,500 divorce or whatever. It is moving to a new city, 774 00:36:42,500 --> 00:36:44,100 having exposure to a new culture. 775 00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:47,900 All of those things are extremely dramatic as an impact 776 00:36:47,900 --> 00:36:50,200 in our lives. I think that we're at a point 777 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:53,800 where dealing with change again, Thomas Friedman talks about this 778 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:55,800 condition called Dynamic stability. 779 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,200 Our sense of stability is actually one of persistent 780 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,000 change and I think where we're heading is that we have to be 781 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,000 comfortable with everything being looser than it was. 782 00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,900 We're no longer assembly line world that we once were apart 783 00:37:08,900 --> 00:37:10,600 from covid. Obviously, which is one of the 784 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:12,200 biggest change I have in my life. 785 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:16,000 The other one, that is dimple. Really big change in potentially 786 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,500 many people's life is actually AI + ml artificial intelligence 787 00:37:19,500 --> 00:37:22,100 and machine learning. So what do you think in terms of 788 00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:25,800 how a I am L works in tandem with experience design. 789 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:29,500 Well, I'm really interested in a is something that I think is 790 00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:33,500 fascinating Professor ring at Stanford talks about AI being 791 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,600 sort of like when we invented electricity, you know, when we 792 00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,900 invented electricity, we didn't know that we would be doing Zoom 793 00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:43,100 calls together. The idea that AI is full 794 00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:47,000 potential is Still to be recognized, and we can start 795 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,600 with the easy obvious stuff. Right? 796 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,500 When we created electricity. The next thing was a light bulb, 797 00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,300 but it wasn't the microprocessor. 798 00:37:53,400 --> 00:37:56,100 And so, I think there is that notion that we're at the 799 00:37:56,107 --> 00:37:59,100 beginning of a new capability, that's pretty phenomenal. 800 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,600 And if it's as impactful as electricity, as you says, then 801 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,800 the kinds of opportunities to create new things, ladders back 802 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,500 to that experience design, letters back to the ability to 803 00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:11,500 Define human outcomes and deliver positive value. 804 00:38:11,700 --> 00:38:14,100 I think, also, we tend to think of everything in a poll. 805 00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,700 Ready, but there's been this situation where, you know, okay, 806 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,200 my job is going to be replaced by a robot, or at some point, 807 00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,200 everything that I'm doing is going to be able to be done by 808 00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:27,000 Automation and I think that to some degree. 809 00:38:27,100 --> 00:38:29,800 There's certainly anxiety and Truth to that. 810 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,600 But on the other hand, it's a bit of a distraction. 811 00:38:32,700 --> 00:38:36,000 The idea that it's you versus the machine means, you're not 812 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,400 looking at the real problem. The real problem is who owns the 813 00:38:38,408 --> 00:38:42,200 machine and I think we should be far more concerned about who are 814 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:44,100 the people who possess the ability. 815 00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,700 T to control this technology rather than everyone controlling 816 00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:49,300 it. And I think that that's a real 817 00:38:49,300 --> 00:38:52,600 fundamental realization that at some point people will wake up 818 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,100 to the fact that my privacy belongs to me. 819 00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:58,100 It's worth some money to others. Therefore. 820 00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:00,600 I need to be compensated to share, whatever it is that 821 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,000 you're interested to learn about me. 822 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,800 I think also, with respect to the engagement with AI, there's 823 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,400 incredible concern that people could have if it were to fall 824 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,300 into individuals or small groups of individual hands as opposed 825 00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:15,800 to being allowed. To be open for everyone. 826 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:17,900 Not every company wants to hear that, I know. 827 00:39:18,100 --> 00:39:20,800 But I think that the reality is, what would Steve have done? 828 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:22,600 Is he would have democratized technology? 829 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,600 So that day I became the most distributed potential 830 00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:29,800 Improvement in society that we could possibly have. 831 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,800 So anyway, I have a number of different views on a I obviously 832 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,100 I think there's some fascinating new opportunities in that it's 833 00:39:36,100 --> 00:39:39,600 an area that we're pursuing. Just did a podcast with guy 834 00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,800 who's working with data analytics called slave to the 835 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,100 algo. We talked a lot. 836 00:39:44,200 --> 00:39:47,100 About AI on that podcast. But anyway, I think it is a 837 00:39:47,107 --> 00:39:50,700 fascinating area and certainly one that requires some real 838 00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:53,100 thought and consideration. I'm intrigued. 839 00:39:53,100 --> 00:39:55,900 By the way you mentioned, AI is like electricity. 840 00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,800 So what are some of the things that AI am L has driven in 841 00:39:59,800 --> 00:40:02,800 designed to change? Probably new ways of thinking, 842 00:40:02,800 --> 00:40:05,500 how experience can be improved with a imli mean? 843 00:40:05,500 --> 00:40:08,300 Maybe you can mention some of the past Trends, which AI 844 00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:10,400 actually driven this kind of change. 845 00:40:10,700 --> 00:40:14,100 Yeah, I guess it's still early. I mean, most a is been used. 846 00:40:14,300 --> 00:40:16,600 Determine whether you could get a car loan or whether you get 847 00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,100 paroled from prison or some of these kinds of very tactical 848 00:40:20,100 --> 00:40:22,300 things, but I think it's becoming more and more 849 00:40:22,300 --> 00:40:24,200 sophisticated. Certainly, the analytics are 850 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,300 starting to move more and more into predictive things. 851 00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:29,600 I don't think it's a mystery that we can teach a piano to 852 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,900 play to have your Steinway. Play out, beautiful rendition of 853 00:40:32,900 --> 00:40:35,800 a particular piece of music whether or not we can get the 854 00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,700 machine learning or the technology to actually create 855 00:40:38,700 --> 00:40:41,800 the next Mona Lisa, or not is a real question, right? 856 00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:44,000 Because I think human beings are still incredibly. 857 00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,400 Complex, not fully understood creatures and the idea that we 858 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,300 have memory and we have completely disassociated 859 00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:52,400 knowledge. That. 860 00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,100 We have a number of different factors. 861 00:40:54,100 --> 00:40:57,800 Besides linear processing means that we have I think many more 862 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,400 Dimensions to explore in terms of relationship, between AI or 863 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,300 ml engagements have to offer. So team. 864 00:41:04,300 --> 00:41:07,400 I know you mentioned earlier that you move to Singapore after 865 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:10,500 Steve Jobs passed away. So what brought you to Singapore 866 00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:12,500 in the first place? Why you interested in this 867 00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:13,900 country? Or maybe this region in 868 00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:17,000 particular? Killer well, so my wife is from 869 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,600 Asia. So, I've been coming to Asia for 870 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,400 many, many years. My father passed away the year 871 00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:24,400 before. Steve did our business had been 872 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,300 primarily in North America and Europe, and I believe really the 873 00:41:28,300 --> 00:41:30,300 future is Asia. That's the next growth. 874 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,400 If you look at Singapore, within an eight-hour flight, we 875 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,900 probably have five point, five billion people out of the seven 876 00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:39,900 point something on the planet and the majority of them are 877 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:44,300 under 30 years old. So when you look at a place, On 878 00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:46,400 Earth that you can have the most impact. 879 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,900 I think this to me struck me as an incredible challenge. 880 00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:51,900 Coming to Singapore. I was very impressed with 881 00:41:51,900 --> 00:41:54,400 Singapore. I still am but the idea that it 882 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,200 virtually everything you encounter, whether you agree or 883 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,400 disagree with whatever the execution is. 884 00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,900 Everything has been considered. There's very few things here. 885 00:42:02,900 --> 00:42:05,700 That one hasn't looked at evaluated in some form and 886 00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:07,700 determine that this is the best way forward. 887 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,700 Nobody's perfect. No place is perfect. 888 00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:11,900 But a place that is trying to do that. 889 00:42:11,900 --> 00:42:14,000 That is trying to consider the best outcome. 890 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,400 I look at Lee Kuan Yew not as the father of Singapore. 891 00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:18,900 Of course. He's the father of Singapore, 892 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,100 but I don't look at him as a politician. 893 00:42:21,100 --> 00:42:22,700 He was an extraordinary politician. 894 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:26,600 I look at him as a designer. Here's a guy who found the keys 895 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,000 to a successful Nation are rooted in diversity. 896 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,200 They're rooted in tolerance with others. 897 00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,300 They're rooted in the fact that you had to plant 10,000 trees a 898 00:42:35,308 --> 00:42:38,500 year in Singapore to bring it back to a sort of this Garden 899 00:42:38,500 --> 00:42:40,200 State. The accountants would never 900 00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:41,600 approve the ten thousand of years. 901 00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:43,400 It was purely a financial decision. 902 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,200 It was me. Meant to be a system for living. 903 00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:50,000 And I think that most countries would benefit look at covid and 904 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,100 how it's been handled in Singapore, most countries would 905 00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:55,200 benefit from the kind of consideration is being given to 906 00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:56,800 every aspect of life. Here. 907 00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,100 The incentive is that the majority of the population 908 00:42:59,100 --> 00:43:02,400 benefits from it as opposed to a few people benefit from it. 909 00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,600 So, I think many of the qualities that I found appealing 910 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:07,200 in Singapore, were rooted in that. 911 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,600 The other part of it was coming from California coming from 912 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:14,500 Silicon Valley, the valley had sort of become a bit, like an Of 913 00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:17,700 Wall Street, much of the innovators, many of the real 914 00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:19,200 interesting. Thinkers. 915 00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:22,000 It was basically falling into this system of how to raise 916 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,000 Capital create, leverage value, and exit the party while that's 917 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,900 part of the natural business. I think it's a bit cynical in 918 00:43:29,900 --> 00:43:31,800 that. It's not really delivering the 919 00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,900 fullest potential of creating value when I came to Singapore. 920 00:43:34,900 --> 00:43:37,500 This was 10 years ago. Probably I would say it was very 921 00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:41,700 young in the mindset of thinking about developing technology and 922 00:43:41,700 --> 00:43:44,000 Innovation and entrepreneurs and things hisses. 923 00:43:44,100 --> 00:43:47,300 All before, all the VCS came to town, there was a certain kind 924 00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,500 of a youthful, innocence to the whole ecosystem around that and 925 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:54,000 I found that it reminded me a lot of early days in the valley. 926 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,500 And so I thought the next Steve Jobs is not going to be in 927 00:43:56,500 --> 00:43:58,500 California. He's going to be somewhere else. 928 00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:01,300 I think it'd be great to figure out who that is and help them 929 00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:04,500 get to wherever they are. Very interesting thought indeed. 930 00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,100 So what do you think is the promise within Asia in terms of 931 00:44:08,100 --> 00:44:12,300 leading the next apple or maybe Nike the promise? 932 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,600 Well again, I guess it goes back to the It's an opportunity for 933 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,900 people here because of the basic demographic. 934 00:44:18,900 --> 00:44:22,500 Psychographic conditions. There's been a growth out of 935 00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:25,300 poverty to developing a greater and greater middle class, which 936 00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:27,900 means you're going to have a lot of other products and services 937 00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:29,900 in demand. These are all things that are at 938 00:44:29,900 --> 00:44:33,000 a kind of macroeconomic level that are positive contributors. 939 00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:35,500 You don't have quite the same aging population problems that 940 00:44:35,500 --> 00:44:39,500 they have in the US or in Japan Etc from that perspective. 941 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,500 Those macro conditions are things that are going to make 942 00:44:42,500 --> 00:44:45,600 the economic opportunities. He's pretty expansive and I 943 00:44:45,607 --> 00:44:47,600 guess is the right word. There's gonna be many chances 944 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,500 for people here to start businesses grow businesses. 945 00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:53,400 And it's kind of, I think at the Forefront of the potential that 946 00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:56,100 can be realized here in Asia that to me. 947 00:44:56,300 --> 00:44:59,600 It's better to be where we're going, then sort of dragging 948 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,100 along the tail. And I think the opportunities 949 00:45:02,100 --> 00:45:05,300 here are also hopefully not just to emulate. 950 00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:09,700 I think Asia has a problem of wanting to emulate too easily 951 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,900 and has been somewhat successful in emulating others, in other 952 00:45:12,900 --> 00:45:16,400 places, but I Time to also step up a bit more that we have to 953 00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:20,600 put more pressure on ourselves to move Beyond being like 954 00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,400 something that we've seen before and start to really Define A New 955 00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:26,600 Path forward that's in design. That's an engineering that's a 956 00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:28,600 new product and Company Creations. 957 00:45:28,700 --> 00:45:31,500 I think it's time for the next level of maturity. 958 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,700 And of course, there's been successes by emulating other 959 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:37,600 successes, but that's not really that important. 960 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,400 What's important is we gained a level of confidence and 961 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,300 excellence in what we're creating here in Asia that makes 962 00:45:43,300 --> 00:45:45,700 it not just World class, but World defining. 963 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:49,300 Yeah, so I kind of agree. I mean, here in Asia, we tend to 964 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:52,500 simulate a lot, especially in the Valley from the big brands 965 00:45:52,500 --> 00:45:54,500 in us and Europe and things like that. 966 00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:57,900 What do you think we can do better in terms of expressing 967 00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,700 the uniqueness of Asia. Is it about diversity? 968 00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:03,800 Or is it about the demographics or language and things like 969 00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:05,400 that? Which part do you think is the 970 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,500 most things potentially that we could explore further? 971 00:46:09,100 --> 00:46:12,600 I think it's probably the thing that's been historically a 972 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:15,700 challenge in many places. How do you get diverse peoples 973 00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:18,200 to come together? Work together, contribute 974 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:20,500 together, grow, and benefit together? 975 00:46:20,700 --> 00:46:24,200 And I think it's maybe doing it not at the exclusion of others. 976 00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,700 But in a more idealistic, kind of framework. 977 00:46:26,700 --> 00:46:28,900 And I think that Asia is particularly well suited, 978 00:46:28,900 --> 00:46:31,300 because if you look at Europe, there are many countries and 979 00:46:31,300 --> 00:46:34,000 they all have very diverse traditions and cultures. 980 00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,700 We have a similar thing here in Asia, but Singapore, has this 981 00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:41,100 kind of Melting Pot in a way. It's a mini Melting Pot, kind of 982 00:46:41,100 --> 00:46:43,900 approach, that can demonstrate that. 983 00:46:44,100 --> 00:46:47,800 There's real value in having groups of people solve complex 984 00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:50,900 problems, I think our problems in the world are much more 985 00:46:50,900 --> 00:46:54,300 complicated today than they were 15 years ago. 20 years ago, 50 986 00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:55,800 years ago. They keep getting more and more 987 00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,300 complicated. It's kind of this notion that no 988 00:46:58,300 --> 00:47:01,300 one is stronger than everyone. It takes a group of people with 989 00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:04,600 some diverse insights to actually solve for a new 990 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,700 condition. Those new insights rather than 991 00:47:06,700 --> 00:47:10,400 being a hindrance or, actually, the key to success coming from 992 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:12,400 California. I think it's a phenomenal place. 993 00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:15,900 I love California. It is a Diverse place and it's 994 00:47:15,900 --> 00:47:19,500 tried to demonstrate that. There's a benefit to diversity 995 00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:21,600 of thinking, and diversity of culture and input. 996 00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,700 And it turns out it's a pretty successful economy on its own. 997 00:47:24,900 --> 00:47:27,500 I think that there is that next Generation. 998 00:47:27,500 --> 00:47:30,800 If you were to take a region to adopt that kind of posture. 999 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:32,900 I think you would have phenomenal upside. 1000 00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,900 I think it just sort of sets the sensibilities for what are the 1001 00:47:35,900 --> 00:47:39,300 things that younger Generations are looking at and really how we 1002 00:47:39,300 --> 00:47:41,900 have to work together to a large degree, to solve some of these 1003 00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:44,900 problems that are outside of, everybody's Order borders are 1004 00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:49,100 pretty old-fashioned idea if you ask me, right, right. 1005 00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:52,600 Yeah, so pretty relatable problem that we have now. 1006 00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:56,900 So in terms of notable brands from Asia, which are some of the 1007 00:47:56,900 --> 00:47:59,700 Brand's you think are doing really, really well coming up 1008 00:47:59,700 --> 00:48:03,100 with their own identity and sense of uniqueness in terms of 1009 00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:05,500 design brand experience and things like that. 1010 00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:08,200 Yeah. I mean a lot of them may have 1011 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:11,300 begun by emulating some other company that they admire. 1012 00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:13,900 So I think there are those in the technology world. 1013 00:48:14,100 --> 00:48:17,700 Who formulated apple and have sort of tried to come and be a 1014 00:48:17,700 --> 00:48:19,200 similar company. For Asia? 1015 00:48:19,300 --> 00:48:21,600 There are those who have emulated, Uber and tries to 1016 00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,000 deliver Transportation Solutions, Etc. 1017 00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,900 But they've also, then grown beyond that and I think that's 1018 00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:30,000 what's interesting. If you look at much of the 1019 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,900 learnings that grab is doing, they're learning from WeChat. 1020 00:48:32,900 --> 00:48:36,400 They're learning from Alibaba. They're creating now some new 1021 00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,100 kind of Dynamics and new hybrid conditions. 1022 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,000 I think. Xiaomi is doing a similar thing 1023 00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:43,300 where they may have pet used to look at Apple, but now they're 1024 00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:46,900 starting to Recognize that their business model is actually quite 1025 00:48:46,900 --> 00:48:50,400 unique and they're taking a pretty aggressive posture to go 1026 00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,700 into the most populated countries with the most diverse 1027 00:48:53,700 --> 00:48:56,800 range of electronic products. Not just handsets, not just 1028 00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:59,500 laptops, but everything from lighting to Mobility. 1029 00:48:59,700 --> 00:49:02,400 I happen to love Aesop, which is an Australian brand. 1030 00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:04,700 I don't know if we get to call Australia part of Asia, but I 1031 00:49:04,707 --> 00:49:08,900 guess I do Aesop is a company that has carved its own path in 1032 00:49:08,900 --> 00:49:12,500 a pretty complicated competitive environment and I think it has 1033 00:49:12,500 --> 00:49:15,200 come out with a unique As well as something where there's 1034 00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,000 strong emotional connections to it. 1035 00:49:17,100 --> 00:49:19,900 So I think there are a number of Brands like that. 1036 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,700 But I do think that the emulation trap is one that 1037 00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:25,400 people have to sort of mature out of and start to have 1038 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,900 confidence in creating their own new innovation. 1039 00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:29,800 Because, you know, it's all about risk rights. 1040 00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,900 What you perceive to have as a risk assessment, and if you 1041 00:49:32,900 --> 00:49:35,600 emulate somebody while it's less risky because I know it works 1042 00:49:35,600 --> 00:49:37,800 over there, on the other hand. It doesn't imply that you 1043 00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,200 actually have the confidence to do it on your own. 1044 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,600 So I think it's also a maturing of the leadership and people who 1045 00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,100 are Taking those risks, you know, it's okay to take risk 1046 00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:48,200 today. The biggest risk you can do is 1047 00:49:48,200 --> 00:49:48,900 nothing. Now. 1048 00:49:48,900 --> 00:49:50,700 Steve would have listened to people telling him that the 1049 00:49:50,700 --> 00:49:53,500 Apple Stores were going to fail, he would have never built the 1050 00:49:53,500 --> 00:49:55,100 store if he would never would have built the store, the 1051 00:49:55,100 --> 00:49:57,500 company would never be a two trillion dollar company. 1052 00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,800 So the biggest risk is listening to the pundits and fearing to 1053 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:02,800 take some chance. I think we need to take some 1054 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,300 chances, try some things, and that active experimentation is 1055 00:50:06,300 --> 00:50:08,500 incredibly liberating when it comes down to it. 1056 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,800 Yeah, so hopefully we can see more people like Steve Jobs, the 1057 00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,900 one that you term intellectually. 1058 00:50:14,300 --> 00:50:17,300 Hopefully we can see more and more people with more intuition 1059 00:50:17,400 --> 00:50:20,300 side of them, being expressed in this Asia rather than just 1060 00:50:20,300 --> 00:50:22,300 emulating from the West. So, team. 1061 00:50:22,300 --> 00:50:25,700 I know that you work a lot these days about some of the Futures. 1062 00:50:25,700 --> 00:50:27,500 Right? About banking about retail 1063 00:50:27,500 --> 00:50:29,500 Hospitality. Maybe can you share a little bit 1064 00:50:29,500 --> 00:50:31,500 on that area? Sure. 1065 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:33,200 Yeah. Well, I mean, we're involved in 1066 00:50:33,300 --> 00:50:36,100 a lot of Industries business categories that are under 1067 00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:39,700 extreme pressure to transform banking is one of them, the 1068 00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:42,600 fintech progression that has been going on for a number of 1069 00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,100 years now, 10 or In years had been primarily focused on 1070 00:50:46,100 --> 00:50:50,600 fragments serving some part of banking and it's left the banks 1071 00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,200 to be pretty confident because they on the regulatory 1072 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,900 relationship that all these guys who are sitting there, nibbling 1073 00:50:55,900 --> 00:50:58,100 at their fragments. They can kind of just adopt some 1074 00:50:58,100 --> 00:51:01,800 best practices and keep going, but we're seeing in a lot of our 1075 00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:04,000 work. Now Banks who are under really 1076 00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,300 serious threat to transform themselves either because of the 1077 00:51:07,300 --> 00:51:09,900 market they're in or because of the business conditions that 1078 00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:13,100 they find themselves and I think that working on this 1079 00:51:13,100 --> 00:51:15,500 relationship. Between digital and physical 1080 00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:18,100 elements is a space that is pretty fascinating. 1081 00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:21,100 We're working with the largest real estate development company 1082 00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,700 in Tokyo to help solve. What is the future of in retail? 1083 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,000 That's a huge problem. Everybody thinks that it's 1084 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:28,900 either e-commerce or bricks and mortar. 1085 00:51:28,900 --> 00:51:31,700 And in fact, it's a hybrid of that that I think is ultimately 1086 00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:34,600 going to be pretty interesting, but I think the challenges that 1087 00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,300 we face have a lot to do with the fact that the rate of change 1088 00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:42,000 in the technology is so fast, and a lot of people are kind of 1089 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,800 Frozen as I mentioned earlier. Sure, they're sort of deer in 1090 00:51:44,808 --> 00:51:47,000 the headlights, kind of thing, you know, the cars coming. 1091 00:51:47,000 --> 00:51:48,500 We don't know whether to go left or right. 1092 00:51:48,500 --> 00:51:51,600 And so you hit by the car. This is a product of the times 1093 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,200 that we're living in and so helping companies figure out 1094 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,700 which way to go and how to frame the priorities for the 1095 00:51:57,700 --> 00:52:00,500 decision-making starts to get you back to answering those 1096 00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:02,800 fundamental questions that I was talking about earlier. 1097 00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:05,700 Would you mind sharing some of the latest projects that you 1098 00:52:05,700 --> 00:52:09,400 think might be interesting that my pop up in the near term in 1099 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,200 terms of future of banking future of real estate? 1100 00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:14,600 Yeah. I mean, I think We're doing one 1101 00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:17,100 for one of the largest companies, when largest banks in 1102 00:52:17,100 --> 00:52:20,600 Thailand, we've been tasked to help them really transform the 1103 00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,500 industry. And we've taken a pretty bold 1104 00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:26,800 approach with that. It's pushing technology as well 1105 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:29,000 as pushing the thinking behind human interaction. 1106 00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,100 So, I think we're stretching some boundaries there in Telco. 1107 00:52:32,100 --> 00:52:34,400 We work for a company called Globe Telecom. 1108 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,900 We started working with them. They were 23 percent market 1109 00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:37,500 share. Now. 1110 00:52:37,500 --> 00:52:41,200 They're 56 percent market, share and the big change, there was 1111 00:52:41,300 --> 00:52:45,000 being a Telco and thinking that there are Essentially behaving, 1112 00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,500 like a utility company. They're basically selling the 1113 00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:50,400 pipes for selling you, the speeds and feeds, and we said, 1114 00:52:50,400 --> 00:52:52,300 you guys aren't a utility company. 1115 00:52:52,400 --> 00:52:55,000 You're an entertainment company, you're providing things that 1116 00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,100 people care about the care about the entertainment. 1117 00:52:57,100 --> 00:52:58,800 They care about the communication and care about 1118 00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,200 what comes through the pipes. They'll buy the pipes. 1119 00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:04,400 We don't have to sell the pipes, but let's focus on becoming an 1120 00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,800 entertainment company. And if you were an entertainment 1121 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,600 company, how would that change your business? 1122 00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:10,900 And of course, you still need to build the bikes, you still need 1123 00:53:10,900 --> 00:53:13,400 to have the infrastructure, but that's not what people want to 1124 00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,000 buy. Nobody is thrilled to go. 1125 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,700 Buy a pipe. They're very thrilled to go by 1126 00:53:17,700 --> 00:53:20,800 whatever is something from Disney, or something from NBA, 1127 00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,100 or whatever. It might be. 1128 00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:25,000 It means refocusing and sort of putting your business through a 1129 00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:27,500 different lens in order to find success. 1130 00:53:27,900 --> 00:53:31,500 It's that sort of thing. We're seeing in Hospitality now, 1131 00:53:31,500 --> 00:53:34,700 with impact on covid, many distressed properties. 1132 00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:36,900 Many people are looking at these properties going. 1133 00:53:36,900 --> 00:53:38,800 Okay. If this is a different 1134 00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,400 condition, I would we think about these properties and 1135 00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,500 starting to help developers reframe what they I'd do with 1136 00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:47,300 different locations. As I mentioned in banking, in 1137 00:53:47,300 --> 00:53:50,100 the Middle East. We were approached last year 1138 00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:51,600 since covid. We haven't been able to proceed 1139 00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:53,700 with it. But somebody asked me if we 1140 00:53:53,700 --> 00:53:57,100 would ever consider designing a government and I thought that 1141 00:53:57,100 --> 00:53:58,800 was a fascinating design problem. 1142 00:53:58,800 --> 00:54:01,000 If you were to take everything that you've learned about 1143 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:05,600 successful governance of people and take what you think are the 1144 00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,400 things they're going to deliver the best outcomes, what might 1145 00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:10,600 that government look like? And it may not look like any of 1146 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,300 the ones we've seen to date, but I thought it was a fascinating 1147 00:54:13,300 --> 00:54:15,200 design. Problem, of course, I've never 1148 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:17,800 been asked anything like that before, but it was one of these 1149 00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,200 things that, you know, what would be probably the most 1150 00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:22,700 challenging Most Fascinating design problem, and it would be 1151 00:54:22,700 --> 00:54:25,400 to solve some of those kinds of problems that have the impact on 1152 00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:28,800 the most people, while it's pretty interesting. 1153 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,400 It is ining, a government. I mean, is it a secretive 1154 00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:34,700 project or can you share yourself against your, which 1155 00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:36,300 government? But it's fascinating, and I 1156 00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:38,800 mean, they're very unique condition and we'll see what 1157 00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:40,400 happens. I don't know with covid. 1158 00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:43,300 We haven't had the opportunity to get started, but that could 1159 00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:44,700 be a very interesting. Arresting assignment. 1160 00:54:44,700 --> 00:54:46,600 That's one of the ones. I'm kind of looking forward to 1161 00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:48,700 cool. I'm looking forward to the 1162 00:54:48,700 --> 00:54:51,900 result obviously, so too. It's been a pleasant 1163 00:54:51,900 --> 00:54:54,600 conversation so far, you know, I learned a lot especially about 1164 00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:59,100 design about brand about how we can create value to humanity. 1165 00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:01,400 But unfortunately, because of the time we have to end. 1166 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,100 But before we end the conversation, normally I would 1167 00:55:04,100 --> 00:55:07,000 ask my guests to share three technical leadership wisdom. 1168 00:55:07,100 --> 00:55:10,400 You can also Share three design leadership wisdom if you would 1169 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,300 like, so, Tim, would you share some of your wisdom in your 1170 00:55:13,300 --> 00:55:16,600 career? So, Lessons Learned the first 1171 00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,100 one, which I mentioned, which is focus on human outcomes. 1172 00:55:19,500 --> 00:55:22,200 If you want to really create value that I think is primary, 1173 00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:28,200 the second one is recognized that 50% of all the potential 1174 00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,100 out there in the world is the future. 1175 00:55:30,300 --> 00:55:31,700 A lot of people. Look at research. 1176 00:55:31,700 --> 00:55:33,900 Look at the past. They ask people what they would 1177 00:55:33,900 --> 00:55:35,700 think about this particular product. 1178 00:55:35,700 --> 00:55:38,700 It really only understand it in the context of what they know, 1179 00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,700 but there's 50% of the rest of the space or the opportunity is 1180 00:55:42,700 --> 00:55:45,100 something that they don't know. Oh, and this do something that I 1181 00:55:45,107 --> 00:55:48,600 think Steve really was very good at anticipating the things that 1182 00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:50,900 people don't know they need yet. What are they? 1183 00:55:51,100 --> 00:55:53,800 And I think looking forward looking into that future space. 1184 00:55:54,000 --> 00:55:56,700 Don't worry about what is today. That let's stretch particularly 1185 00:55:56,700 --> 00:55:59,200 in a time of Rapid change. Don't be afraid to stretch. 1186 00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,400 And then the last one, I think we are all trained with a 1187 00:56:03,400 --> 00:56:06,000 strength whether it's the more right-brained or left-brained 1188 00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,000 kind of dominance. And it's important that whatever 1189 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:13,000 we have as our strengths, that we also exercise the weaker side 1190 00:56:13,100 --> 00:56:15,700 as well as the Inside. So it's one thing to make the 1191 00:56:15,700 --> 00:56:19,100 strong side stronger, but I think you can tend to look at 1192 00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:21,700 particularly when it comes to different ways of thinking, it's 1193 00:56:21,700 --> 00:56:24,700 important to create balance and I think creating balance in your 1194 00:56:24,700 --> 00:56:26,800 thought, process in your approach. 1195 00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,300 There's nothing wrong with having both an analytical side 1196 00:56:30,300 --> 00:56:33,000 and an intuitive side. It's good to exercise both those 1197 00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,000 muscles right? Very insightful. 1198 00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,400 Wisdom indeed. So teeny people are interested 1199 00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:39,400 to find you online. Where can they find you? 1200 00:56:39,900 --> 00:56:45,400 Yeah, you can search my name Timco, BK, Obe my Email is k, 0b 1201 00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,700 e, at eight inc.com TIG HT inc.com. 1202 00:56:48,800 --> 00:56:52,600 Our website is aiding.com, so there should be some different 1203 00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:55,600 ways to track me down, right? So thank you so much for your 1204 00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:57,700 time. It's really a pleasure and 1205 00:56:57,700 --> 00:57:01,100 looking forward to see you're designing a government result. 1206 00:57:01,900 --> 00:57:03,400 Thanks Henry. Appreciate it. 1207 00:57:03,500 --> 00:57:06,800 Take your gear. Thank you for listening to this 1208 00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:09,500 episode and for staying right till the end. 1209 00:57:09,700 --> 00:57:12,600 If you highly enjoyed, please share it with your friends and 1210 00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:15,900 colleagues who you think would also benefit from listening to 1211 00:57:15,900 --> 00:57:18,200 this episode. And if you're new to the 1212 00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:21,500 podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable 1213 00:57:21,500 --> 00:57:24,900 review and feedback. It really, really helps me a lot 1214 00:57:24,900 --> 00:57:27,400 in order to grow these podcasts better. 1215 00:57:27,900 --> 00:57:31,300 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 1216 00:57:31,300 --> 00:57:34,500 the episode page at technology. No, the death website. 1217 00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,000 Putting the full transcript interesting quotes and links to 1218 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,900 the resources and mentions from the conversation. 1219 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:44,300 And lastly make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 1220 00:57:44,300 --> 00:57:47,500 list on technology. Another deaf to get notified for 1221 00:57:47,500 --> 00:57:50,300 any future episodes. Stay tuned for the next 1222 00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:52,700 technique Journal episode. And until then. 1223 00:57:52,900 --> 00:57:53,500 Goodbye.