1
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Be the supply to the unmet, 
demand things that you can make 

2
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a huge difference on if bony, 
you just go and do it. 

3
00:00:06,900 --> 00:00:08,100
You don't need to seek 
permission. 

4
00:00:08,100 --> 00:00:11,100
If there's time, just go and do 
it, and you'll make someone's 

5
00:00:11,100 --> 00:00:13,500
life, so much easier, they'll be
grateful for it. 

6
00:00:13,500 --> 00:00:16,500
And you'll have some impact and 
created a positive experience 

7
00:00:16,500 --> 00:00:19,300
with somebody, and that's how 
you end up growing and being 

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00:00:19,300 --> 00:00:25,300
noticed. 
Hey everyone. 

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00:00:25,900 --> 00:00:30,600
My name is Henry Surya be Robin.
And you're listening to the 

10
00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,400
tekhelet Juno, the show will be 
bringing you the greatest 

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00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:38,100
technical leaders practitioners 
and thought leaders in the 

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00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:43,000
industry to discuss about their 
Journey ideas and practices that

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we all can learn and apply to 
build a highly performing 

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technical team and to make an 
impact in your personal work. 

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00:00:50,700 --> 00:00:59,100
So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hello everyone. 

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00:00:59,300 --> 00:01:02,700
Welcome to another new episode 
of the tekhelet journal podcast,

17
00:01:02,900 --> 00:01:06,000
very happy to be back here again
to share with all of you, my 

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00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,700
conversation with another great 
technical leader in the 

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industry. 
Thanks for tuning in and 

20
00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:13,400
spending your time with me 
today, listening to this 

21
00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,700
episode. 
If you are new to the podcast, 

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know that technology, you know, 
is available on major podcast 

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00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,500
apps such as Spotify, Apple 
podcasts, Google podcast, 

24
00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:25,600
YouTube and many more. 
Please subscribe to the podcast 

25
00:01:25,600 --> 00:01:28,900
to get Defied for any new 
episode that I release every 

26
00:01:28,900 --> 00:01:30,900
week. 
Also check out and follow 

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technology, you know, social 
media channels on LinkedIn 

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00:01:33,900 --> 00:01:38,300
Twitter and Instagram everyday. 
I post nuggets of wisdom from 

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each week's episode and I share 
them on those channels to give 

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00:01:41,900 --> 00:01:45,200
us some inspiration and to 
motivate us to get better each 

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day. 
And if you'd like to make some 

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00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,100
contribution to the show and 
support the creation of this 

33
00:01:50,100 --> 00:01:53,800
podcast, please consider joining
as a patron by visiting 

34
00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,100
technology. 
No dot f / Patron. 

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00:01:56,600 --> 00:02:00,100
I highly appreciate any kind of 
support and your contribution 

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00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,700
would help me to add sustainably
producing this show every week 

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for today's episode. 
I am happy to share my 

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00:02:07,100 --> 00:02:11,600
conversation with any Vala. 
Any is a Technologies with 

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almost two decades of hands on 
software, engineering, and 

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Technology leadership experience
CS work in a range of business 

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domains across four different 
countries, both remote and 

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on-site recently. 
She left her role as 

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engineering. 
Manager at message, but in 

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Amsterdam to return to her home 
country New Zealand where she 

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has joined respect as a tech 
area lead in Oakland. 

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In this episode, any shared her 
engineering career dilemma story

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on why she resisted getting into
management early in her career 

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for many of us in technology 
career. 

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This is a career decision. 
That is sometimes quite tricky 

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to navigate. 
Most of us started our 

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technology career due to our 
love. 

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Solving complex problems, 
playing around with Technologies

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00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:03,100
and the novelty of building 
things that seem to magically 

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work. 
Some of us even prefer talking 

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to the machines rather than 
humans. 

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However, at some point in time 
in our career, there will come a

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time when these questions start 
to arise such as should we start

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going into a management role 
such as being a manager attacked

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lead project manager and so on. 
When should we take the 

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management role? 
Should we take it early in our 

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Career to show our rapid 
progression. 

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Any kind of Milestones that I 
should aim for? 

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Before I consider taking the 
management role. 

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Is there any difference doing a 
management role at Large Size? 

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Companies versus the small ones 
and the list goes on and on and 

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it becomes even trickier. 
Since at most of the companies, 

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the management role is highly 
associated with more money and 

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status symbol. 
Any also highlighted her 

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observation on the tendency for 
women to get singled out for 

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their people skills. 
And thus get offered the 

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management roles early in their 
career. 

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She shared her thought process 
on this and related. 

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It back to her own experience on
how to approach it. 

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The other thing that any also 
shared with me is her unique 

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approach to helping others grow 
in their career and skills 

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00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,899
through self-reflection and 
storytelling, including some of 

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her favorite self reflection 
questions, which I find 

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00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,800
insightful. 
And you can also try those when 

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you have a conversation with 
your people in your The next one

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on once towards the end, any 
shared her experience at 

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message. 
Bird a scale-up company based in

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Amsterdam where she led the 
rapid growth of her team 

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organically, within a short 
period of time. 

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Any also highlighted, the 
importance of promoting 

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engineering leaders from within 
and she shared few stories on 

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00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:50,600
how she did that. 
When she promoted a few people 

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in her team to become new 
managers. 

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I hope you will enjoy this 
episode. 

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00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,100
And if Like it, please consider 
helping the show by leaving a 

90
00:04:59,100 --> 00:05:03,100
rating review or comment on your
podcast app or social media 

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00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:06,700
channels, those reviews and 
comments are one of the best 

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00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:09,500
ways to get this podcast to 
reach more listeners. 

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00:05:09,900 --> 00:05:12,800
And hopefully, they can also 
benefit from the contents in 

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00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:15,600
this podcast. 
So, let's get this episode 

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00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:18,200
started right after our sponsor 
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Welcome everyone, to another new
episode of the technology. 

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You know, today I have with me, 
a novella someone who I knew 

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00:05:53,800 --> 00:05:57,600
from France on LinkedIn. 
So any is currently in New 

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Zealand, so I got to reach 
someone from that area, which is

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00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,500
a very good for me, but 
recently, she actually moves 

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from Europe. 
So, any will tell the story 

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00:06:05,700 --> 00:06:08,900
about her later. 
So any welcome to the show Im. 

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So excited to have you here with
me. 

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Thank you, Henry. 
I'm really happy to be here too.

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First of all, any maybe if you 
can introduce yourself telling 

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the a about you and maybe some 
highlights on major turning 

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points in your career. 
That will be great. 

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Sure can. 
All right. 

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Well, my story starts at a very 
young age. 

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I got a Commodore 64 when I was 
about 5 or 6 years old. 

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So that's pretty early on my 
parents bought it for me because

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they thought it would be a fun 
platform for me to play games on

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and do puzzles on, but actually,
it came with a manual on basic 

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programming. 
So that's when I actually 

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discovered, what programming was
at that young age and I found 

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that just so interesting because
it enabled me to make more out 

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of a device that you could play 
games on. 

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I could make it sing songs for 
me. 

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00:06:55,500 --> 00:06:57,800
I could make it draw a smiley 
face that bounce around the 

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screen. 
And really, at this point. 

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I was just copying the code. 
That was in the manual. 

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I didn't understand what it was 
really doing but it gave me some

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insight and I think that opened 
up my eyes at that age that 

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there might be more to this and 
that I was really interested in 

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it. 
I didn't get much of an 

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opportunity to carry on learning
about computers until So I 

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reached maybe high school, the 
high school that I was attending

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at the time. 
I actually lived in Mexico for a

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few years and the school that I 
was going to there. 

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They had a computer science 
course that I was able to take 

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00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:31,000
for a few months and we started 
doing some Pascal programming at

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that point. 
So at this stage, I was about 15

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years old and I was being 
introduced to a different 

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programming language, and I 
could start learning a bit more 

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there. 
Again, my passion for this was 

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totally reignited. 
I was so excited about it, and 

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then my family moved back to New
Zealand at that point, so, I 

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00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,600
actually had to switch. 
Schools and the school that I 

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ended up in for my last two 
years of high school was here in

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New Zealand and it was an 
all-girls high school. 

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So they offered something that 
they called computer studies and

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because it had the word computer
in it. 

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I thought, right? 
That's for me. 

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00:08:00,500 --> 00:08:02,800
I'm going to take that course 
alongside mathematics and 

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physics. 
All the things that really 

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interested me. 
Unfortunately, computer studies 

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was not what I thought it was 
going to be. 

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00:08:07,700 --> 00:08:11,100
It was actually a course on how 
to use Microsoft Word to make 

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things bold. 
I think the most complex thing 

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we did was learning how to do 
some mail merge. 

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So I Speaking to that, one of 
the computer studies teachers 

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and asking them if there was any
opportunity for me to learn how 

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00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:26,000
to program and unfortunately, 
they actually laughed and said 

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the only way that I'd be able to
do that was if I went to one of 

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the boys schools, I thought, 
well that's not fair. 

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I can't do that. 
So I sort of tried to burn a bit

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on the side at home. 
It was in the late 90s and they 

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00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,600
really weren't too many options 
for self learning at the time. 

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At least. 
I didn't seem to find them. 

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I didn't really know anyone who 
could help me and that respect. 

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So, I stuck with the Computer 
studies throughout those last 

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two years of high school. 
And then when I graduated, I 

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remember one of these teachers 
asking me what I was going to do

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next and I said, well, I'm going
to go to university and I'm 

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00:08:56,508 --> 00:08:58,800
going to do computer science. 
And again, they tried to 

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dissuade me. 
They said I would probably be 

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the only girl in the class and I
wouldn't be anywhere near as 

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good as any of the other guys in
the class. 

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00:09:05,300 --> 00:09:07,700
I'd be behind because they'd had
a head start. 

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And, you know, these sorts of 
comments, I think have stuck 

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with me as I've progressed from 
my career because they were kind

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of a turning point for me. 
I think somebody telling me that

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I couldn't do Something or that 
I shouldn't do something. 

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Just encouraged me to try even 
harder. 

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So it certainly didn't put me 
off. 

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It just made me want to try 
harder. 

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So, yeah, I went and did a 
Computer Science and Mathematics

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degree. 
I absolutely loved it. 

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I think it probably was a little
harder for me at the beginning 

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because I really didn't have the
same background that a lot of 

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the other people in the class 
did. 

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But it didn't really matter 
because that's what university 

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and study is therefore you can 
come from any background and I 

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00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:44,300
think I proved that you didn't 
have to come with a set of 

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00:09:44,300 --> 00:09:46,200
knowledge already and skills in 
that area. 

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00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:49,600
I felt As I progressed through 
my degree, I learnt more and 

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00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,800
more lessons. 
Not necessarily about the theory

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00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,300
or the fundamentals, but about 
how to solve problems. 

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00:09:54,300 --> 00:09:57,200
And that if you spend enough 
time and effort on things 

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00:09:57,300 --> 00:10:00,800
eventually, a problem can be 
solved and the feeling of 

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00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,200
finding that solution was just 
so satisfying. 

200
00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,200
So I was really, really glad 
that I pursued my passion. 

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00:10:06,500 --> 00:10:09,600
So after I graduated from 
University, I started working as

202
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,200
a software engineer here in New 
Zealand. 

203
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,400
I was lucky enough to end up 
working at I think at the time, 

204
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,500
it was probably New Zealand's 
busiest website. 

205
00:10:16,700 --> 00:10:19,700
Old Trade, Me, New Zealand. 
Never really had eBay here. 

206
00:10:19,700 --> 00:10:22,600
So trade me was like eBay, but 
just for New Zealand and it was 

207
00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,300
such a busy website like so much
traffic and so super well-known.

208
00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:29,300
So I was lucky enough to work on
something that so many people 

209
00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:32,800
knew about and when I released a
change or a new feature or bug 

210
00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,200
fix, I knew that thousands, 
millions of people were using it

211
00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:38,800
and that just continued to make 
me feel, like, I'd made the 

212
00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:41,300
right choice. 
I remember thinking that I just 

213
00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:44,100
wanted to stick with it. 
I wanted to make sure that I 

214
00:10:44,100 --> 00:10:46,700
kept refining my own skills that
I put myself. 

215
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,600
Into situations that made me 
learn more because I really 

216
00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,300
believe that by doing you learn 
more than just by reading about 

217
00:10:53,300 --> 00:10:55,900
it or listening. 
So I tried to work on big 

218
00:10:55,900 --> 00:10:58,600
projects. 
I tried to work alongside other 

219
00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:01,700
Engineers, so I had a lot of 
respect for eventually. 

220
00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:04,700
I decided that I needed to try 
doing the overseas experience 

221
00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:06,000
thing. 
As many new zealanders. 

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00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:08,200
Do. 
I went overseas, I ended up in 

223
00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,300
Australia for just over a year 
and then the UK for a couple of 

224
00:11:11,300 --> 00:11:14,200
years and then ultimately 
Amsterdam, which is where I was 

225
00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:16,600
recently. 
I've worked it, I think ten. 

226
00:11:16,700 --> 00:11:18,700
Aunt companies I've been a 
contractor. 

227
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:20,600
I've worked at a lot of 
startups. 

228
00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,400
It means that I've had a very 
varied experience as a software 

229
00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,300
engineer so far. 
Throughout that time. 

230
00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,500
I felt like I learned so much 
and I really wanted to stick 

231
00:11:30,500 --> 00:11:32,600
with the tools. 
So I stuck with being an 

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individual contributor for as 
long as I could just to keep 

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00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,300
gaining those skills. 
It was actually fairly early on,

234
00:11:38,300 --> 00:11:39,900
in my career. 
It was only a few years out of 

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University that I was already 
being offered roles in 

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00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:46,100
management, because I guess 
there was a perception that I 

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had some good. 
People skills. 

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Some good soft skills, but at 
the time I thought this is way 

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too early, you know, I can't 
move into leading other people 

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00:11:53,308 --> 00:11:55,000
yet because I don't know enough 
myself. 

241
00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,500
I need to keep learning and the 
best way to do that is to keep 

242
00:11:58,500 --> 00:12:01,600
being an individual contributor.
So I really resisted moving into

243
00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,900
management. 
I ended up resisting for about 

244
00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:06,200
10 years. 
So I finally ended up moving 

245
00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:08,400
into management role about seven
or eight years ago. 

246
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:11,300
Now, it's been quite a number of
years that I've been leading 

247
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teams and other engineers. 
And I think, now I finally 

248
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recognize just how important it 
endures and how much there is to

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be gained from helping other 
people learn as well. 

250
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So, I'm glad I made the shift 
but I'm also glad that I waited,

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00:12:24,300 --> 00:12:27,400
as long as I did. 
So I think this story, many 

252
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,300
people could relate as well, 
especially as more and more 

253
00:12:30,300 --> 00:12:33,400
technology opportunities and 
roles for people around here, 

254
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,800
especially with the booming, of 
these startups or 

255
00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,600
technology-driven companies. 
So many people are thinking 

256
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,700
about, should I stay as an 
individual contributor? 

257
00:12:42,900 --> 00:12:47,000
Or should I go into management, 
which is perceived as more Full 

258
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,600
in the corporate world normally,
so if you can share a little bit

259
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,200
more about your thought process,
why you resist it for like 10 

260
00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,500
years before you actually made 
that move to become a manager. 

261
00:12:57,700 --> 00:13:01,400
So why was it important for you 
to delay for such a long time? 

262
00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,200
Sure. 
So what's really interesting is 

263
00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:07,100
when I started off as a software
engineer, I don't think there 

264
00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:10,100
was a very clear career path for
software engineers and maybe 

265
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:13,000
there still isn't but I do feel 
like it's getting better. 

266
00:13:13,100 --> 00:13:15,900
I used to look at other 
Industries like say maybe you 

267
00:13:15,900 --> 00:13:18,300
went into Counting. 
I think there's a very clear 

268
00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:20,600
career path for accountants. 
There's certain Milestones you 

269
00:13:20,608 --> 00:13:22,400
need to hit. 
Maybe there are some exams, you 

270
00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,200
need to sit. 
Then you get a certification and

271
00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,300
then you can sort of be promoted
to the next level as a software 

272
00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:28,900
engineer. 
It felt like there was sort of 

273
00:13:28,900 --> 00:13:32,400
Junior media senior and then 
what maybe you might move into 

274
00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,800
architecture or you move into 
people management, but what sort

275
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,500
of Milestones that you need to 
hit in order to reach those next

276
00:13:38,500 --> 00:13:41,300
levels, so it wasn't very clear 
to me at all. 

277
00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,500
And I think there is a big 
difference between being an 

278
00:13:44,500 --> 00:13:47,800
individual contributor as an 
engineer and A leader or 

279
00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:50,600
manager, the sorts of things 
that you'll be doing day to day 

280
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:53,600
are entirely different. 
I do think that as you said like

281
00:13:53,600 --> 00:13:56,200
at least in the corporate world 
moving into management is 

282
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,200
perceived as being more 
impactful. 

283
00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:01,400
But seen as a promotion it's 
seen as you get a pay rise out 

284
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,800
of it, more responsibility and 
it is all of those things but 

285
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,200
it's not the only Avenue to get 
more of that in your life. 

286
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,200
What I urge other people to 
think about is what does their 

287
00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,700
Passion live? 
What brings them energy for some

288
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:17,900
tasks that you'll do might take 
Energy away from you, and you 

289
00:14:17,900 --> 00:14:20,100
need to look for something that 
gives you energy. 

290
00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:23,800
And if for the time being 
writing code, solving problems, 

291
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,200
delivering solutions to 
customers. 

292
00:14:26,300 --> 00:14:29,300
If that's what gives you energy 
stick with that, for the time 

293
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:30,200
being. 
It doesn't mean that. 

294
00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:32,500
That's what you're going to have
to do for the rest of your life.

295
00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,600
We have fairly long careers. 
These days, I reckon, most of us

296
00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,100
will probably have a 45 to 50 
year long career, unless you're 

297
00:14:39,100 --> 00:14:41,900
lucky enough to retire earlier. 
So, you know, that there's 

298
00:14:41,900 --> 00:14:44,700
plenty of time to change your 
mind later on about what you're 

299
00:14:44,700 --> 00:14:46,400
going to spend most of your day 
doing. 

300
00:14:46,700 --> 00:14:49,500
There are some people who might 
decide that they are definitely 

301
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,000
cut out to being a people 
manager earlier, on in their 

302
00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:55,000
career, but they probably have 
that sense quite early on in 

303
00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,000
their career and they can make 
that choice. 

304
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,600
But for the most part, I think, 
if you've chosen to go into 

305
00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,200
software engineering, it's 
because you have a passion for 

306
00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:04,400
solving problems. 
It's been described to me, and I

307
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,000
totally agree with this. 
It's like being paid to solve 

308
00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,700
puzzles every day. 
Who can argue with that being 

309
00:15:09,700 --> 00:15:12,700
fun for those of us who enjoy 
solving puzzles being paid to 

310
00:15:12,700 --> 00:15:14,000
solve. 
Puzzles, day-to-day is 

311
00:15:14,000 --> 00:15:16,000
fantastic. 
So, if that's what you enjoy 

312
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:19,200
doing, Stick with it because 
there are other avenues to be 

313
00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:21,900
promoted in a more technical 
career path. 

314
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:25,100
You can keep going on through, 
it doesn't have to be like an 

315
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:28,100
architectural, it can be more of
a principal or a staff engineer,

316
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:30,700
you know, you do grow and 
there's so many different ways 

317
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:34,500
that you can grow continue down 
that path until you feel like 

318
00:15:34,500 --> 00:15:38,000
you might have more impact in 
your more interested in looking 

319
00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,600
for ways to solve problems that 
involve team structures or 

320
00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,100
project processes or 
identifying, what skills are 

321
00:15:45,100 --> 00:15:49,500
missing within a team and how To
help other Engineers grow within

322
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:51,600
the areas that they're 
interested in or have more 

323
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,200
impact. 
These are the sorts of things 

324
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,600
that you'll be solving. 
It's still a puzzle that needs 

325
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:58,200
solving, but it's entirely 
different to reading lines of 

326
00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,200
code looking for memory leaks, 
the siding which technology 

327
00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:04,100
stack to use. 
So, for me, personally, I really

328
00:16:04,100 --> 00:16:05,700
loved solving those technical 
problems. 

329
00:16:05,700 --> 00:16:08,900
I'd wanted to do it since I was 
six years old and it just made 

330
00:16:08,900 --> 00:16:11,000
sense for me to stick with it. 
For as long as I did. 

331
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,600
I believe that if I moved into 
management too early, I would go

332
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,900
Rusty on those things. 
I suffered from a Bit of 

333
00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,500
imposter syndrome, you know, I 
think a lot of us do and I 

334
00:16:19,508 --> 00:16:21,300
always thought I wasn't good 
enough. 

335
00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,200
And maybe everybody else around 
me was better at solving 

336
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:26,000
problems. 
And I was, you know, practice 

337
00:16:26,000 --> 00:16:27,100
makes perfect. 
Right? 

338
00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:30,200
So, if I continue to practice 
and put myself into new and 

339
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,500
different situations, I would 
keep learning but if I moved 

340
00:16:33,500 --> 00:16:36,200
into management, I would be 
practicing at different things. 

341
00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:40,400
And how could I possibly lead a 
team of really smart Engineers? 

342
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:42,600
When I couldn't do those things 
myself? 

343
00:16:42,900 --> 00:16:45,700
I think it's important that you 
have enough skills that your 

344
00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:48,000
team. 
See you in the same way that you

345
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,400
respect them. 
I believe you need to be someone

346
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:53,600
who they can trust to help them 
get out of trouble when they 

347
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:55,900
face a situation. 
They haven't faced before. 

348
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:58,800
Maybe you can have some stories 
to tell that guide them in the 

349
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,000
right direction. 
It's not about solving the 

350
00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:04,099
problems for them, but perhaps 
just being that safety net. 

351
00:17:04,500 --> 00:17:07,800
So I do think that I made the 
right choice for me to stick 

352
00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:10,599
with what I was doing as an 
individual contributor, as long 

353
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,700
as I did. 
I think it was very baffling to 

354
00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:15,500
people around me because these 
sorts of conversations about 

355
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:17,700
moving into management. 
Came with the additional 

356
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:20,300
responsibilities and the pay 
Rises and the opportunities to 

357
00:17:20,300 --> 00:17:22,500
grow, but it was growing in a 
direction that I wasn't 

358
00:17:22,500 --> 00:17:24,599
interested in at the time. 
And to be honest. 

359
00:17:24,599 --> 00:17:27,700
I felt a little pressure to go 
in that direction, but I'm glad 

360
00:17:27,700 --> 00:17:30,800
that I didn't fall into that 
trap for myself. 

361
00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,700
I think I'm better off for it. 
I hope I'm a better leader for 

362
00:17:33,700 --> 00:17:36,300
it. 
So I pick up a key point when 

363
00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:39,200
you sharing your short story. 
Just now you mentioned about 

364
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:43,900
Milestones which probably in the
pack career is not so clear, not

365
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:46,800
so evident and especially just 
now you mentioned The 

366
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,500
progression of someone as an 
individual contributor. 

367
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:51,100
What kind of impact they can 
bring? 

368
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,200
So, if you can probably 
summarize for people here, who 

369
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,300
would like to be an individual 
contributor? 

370
00:17:56,300 --> 00:18:00,100
That is gradually growing being 
prepared for management role. 

371
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,900
What do you think at the stages 
in between, you know, the kind 

372
00:18:02,900 --> 00:18:05,900
of Milestones that people should
be looking at, at least, have a 

373
00:18:05,900 --> 00:18:09,200
rough idea, because it's so 
unclear for people in the tech. 

374
00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,700
I see that a lot of times people
get chosen into a more senior 

375
00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:16,500
and management role just by 
chance by luck, or by being 

376
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,500
Tiered and things like that. 
So not necessarily is have 

377
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:22,800
something well as a store, good 
attributes that you can say. 

378
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:25,700
Okay, I think all these boxes. 
I'm ready for manager. 

379
00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:27,300
So, maybe you can share a little
bit on that. 

380
00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:30,900
Sure. 
So actually more recently. 

381
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:33,000
I've come across something 
called the Dreyfus model, which 

382
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:36,300
I think is probably a good place
to start what The Dreyfuss model

383
00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:40,300
talks about is it's a skills 
acquisition framework and what 

384
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:44,600
it describes is the progression 
more to do with the behaviors 

385
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,900
and attitude that you have when 
you From novice up to an expert 

386
00:18:48,900 --> 00:18:52,500
level actually what the drivers 
model says, and I feel like I'm 

387
00:18:52,500 --> 00:18:55,500
kind of evidence of this is that
it takes about 10 years to 

388
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:58,900
really become an expert in a 
given skill that skill can be, 

389
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:01,300
you know, it doesn't have to be 
software engineering as a whole.

390
00:19:01,300 --> 00:19:04,200
It could be a specific language 
or specific technology or it 

391
00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,100
could actually be something 
totally different, like learning

392
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:09,500
how to play an instrument or 
cook or something like that when

393
00:19:09,500 --> 00:19:11,300
you're a novice. 
So this would be a junior 

394
00:19:11,300 --> 00:19:14,000
engineer, you know, when you 
start off as a junior engineer, 

395
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,400
you probably work within 
certain. 

396
00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:19,400
Sort of framework. 
A set of rules and guidelines. 

397
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:25,100
You're probably being given 
tasks and your focus should be 

398
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:28,000
and generally is to pick a task 
off the board and do it as 

399
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,000
quickly as you can. 
If you want to prove to yourself

400
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,100
and everyone around you that 
you're able to solve that 

401
00:19:32,100 --> 00:19:33,800
problem. 
You're probably pretty Keen to 

402
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,000
get on to the next one. 
You might make some mistakes 

403
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,100
because you may even be rushing 
a little bit just to get through

404
00:19:39,100 --> 00:19:41,400
the work quite quickly, but 
you're working within a specific

405
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,700
set of guidelines that are set 
out from people around you. 

406
00:19:44,900 --> 00:19:48,600
I reckon that as you start to To
grow and it really is like those

407
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,600
Milestones are very gradual as 
you begin to become more 

408
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,400
experienced and grow those 
skills. 

409
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:58,300
You rely on those roles less 
than this, you might start to 

410
00:19:58,300 --> 00:20:00,000
discover that. 
There are some rules that don't 

411
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,700
apply in certain situations 
where they did apply somewhere 

412
00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:04,500
else. 
You start to question things 

413
00:20:04,500 --> 00:20:05,700
more. 
Perhaps you want a little bit 

414
00:20:05,708 --> 00:20:09,200
more context around why the work
needs to be done, or why it's 

415
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,000
being done in this way or why 
now, as opposed to later that 

416
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,300
sort of scope starts to grow. 
So, instead of being more 

417
00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,800
focused. 
Focused on a narrow area, you 

418
00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:21,400
start to ask around, you know, 
maybe what other teams are 

419
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:24,300
working on or what the business 
case for this is. 

420
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:27,200
So your Viewpoint becomes a bit 
more holistic. 

421
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:29,900
I think, as you develop those 
skills in the more experiences 

422
00:20:29,900 --> 00:20:34,200
you have you start to gain a 
sense of intuition around the 

423
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,900
right things to apply to certain
situations, you recognize that 

424
00:20:37,900 --> 00:20:39,900
the rules. 
Don't apply in every situation. 

425
00:20:39,900 --> 00:20:43,600
So everything's becoming more 
situational and you become more 

426
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:45,900
context aware. 
It's not an exam that you're 

427
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:48,000
going to sit. 
It can tell you that you are now

428
00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,600
at Media or senior level. 
It's more around. 

429
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,100
How you behave. 
And why are you behaving in 

430
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:54,800
those ways? 
And it's very gradual. 

431
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,900
I think this is why I encourage 
a lot of self-reflection. 

432
00:20:58,100 --> 00:21:01,300
When engineers in my team's talk
to me about wanting to be 

433
00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:04,300
promoted. 
I try to discuss with them that 

434
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,000
perhaps they shouldn't be aiming
at having a promotion but 

435
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,300
instead, they should be 
reflecting upon their own 

436
00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:12,400
behaviors and do, they feel like
they are now acting more from a 

437
00:21:12,408 --> 00:21:15,000
sense of intuition? 
And do they want the bigger 

438
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:16,300
picture? 
Are they able? 

439
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:19,800
To take on that bigger picture 
because at a more novice level. 

440
00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,400
The bigger picture is probably 
too confusing and you don't need

441
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:23,300
it. 
You shouldn't have it. 

442
00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:25,600
It's too much information might 
overwhelm you. 

443
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,200
So it is quite a natural 
progression. 

444
00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:32,100
I would say you do actually need
to practice the hard tasks over 

445
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:34,300
this period of time up to 10 
years. 

446
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,200
You also need to put yourself in
two very different situations. 

447
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,600
Because if you do the same thing
over and over for 10 years, 

448
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,000
you're probably not going to 
grow those skills and develop 

449
00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,400
these aptitudes either. 
Another thing is communication 

450
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,500
skills, you know. 
I was in high school. 

451
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,800
I wanted to do all the Sciences.
I really wasn't very interested 

452
00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,400
in studying English or history 
or anything. 

453
00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:55,500
That required, those other sorts
of skills. 

454
00:21:55,500 --> 00:21:58,700
But I remember my father, 
insisting that, I take English 

455
00:21:58,700 --> 00:22:01,600
as a subject because he said, 
you can be the smartest computer

456
00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,100
scientists out there any. 
But if you cannot communicate 

457
00:22:04,100 --> 00:22:06,000
that to other people, it won't 
mean anything. 

458
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:08,800
This was so many years ago and I
still think about it all the 

459
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,700
time because being able to 
communicate with people with the

460
00:22:11,700 --> 00:22:14,800
right sort of words or the right
level that they need to be 

461
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:16,400
communicated with is so 
important. 

462
00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:18,300
And that's something that you 
gain skills. 

463
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,400
What you might have as a more 
Junior engineer, you might have 

464
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,700
thought these were irrelevant 
things that you didn't need to 

465
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,300
know about these. 
You just need to develop you 

466
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:28,000
need to be better at writing, 
SQL queries, or you need to know

467
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,800
the latest framework or how to 
debug this complex situation. 

468
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:32,800
You do need to know those 
things, but then there's a whole

469
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,300
lot more beyond that as well. 
I guess that's my store in this 

470
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:39,500
domain, right in my previous 
episodes, as well. 

471
00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:42,500
I learned that many technical 
leaders are kind of like being 

472
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:44,900
thrown into the roles. 
They are not well prepared. 

473
00:22:44,900 --> 00:22:47,500
So that's when they Come the 
manager. 

474
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:50,100
They didn't actually perform. 
Well, the team are suffering. 

475
00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:53,500
And also the other day, I was 
having a conversation as well. 

476
00:22:53,500 --> 00:22:56,700
That the technical leadership is
actually is in a crisis mode now

477
00:22:56,700 --> 00:23:00,100
because as more and more people 
going to the technical roles, 

478
00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,700
not necessarily everyone make a 
good cut as a good manager. 

479
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:07,000
So have you ever seen in your 10
years experience as an icy as 

480
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,600
you more and more progress as 
small senior? 

481
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:13,600
Have you had a manager who 
actually didn't perform on that 

482
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,300
level and what kind of impact 
that would bring? 

483
00:23:16,500 --> 00:23:18,800
NG to an experience. 
I see like you is there. 

484
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:20,700
Such a story from your 
experience. 

485
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:23,000
I do actually and funnily 
enough. 

486
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,600
That's how I became a team lead.
It's a story of me moving into a

487
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:30,000
team lead position. 
So it was one of the roles I had

488
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,200
in Amsterdam. 
The team that I joined was the 

489
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,000
backend team for a relatively 
small company. 

490
00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,700
They're the team lead of that 
team. 

491
00:23:37,700 --> 00:23:41,200
He had been the most senior I 
see on the team and he was 

492
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,200
promoted into this position 
because where else was he going 

493
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,100
to move to? 
So, you know, it was one of 

494
00:23:46,108 --> 00:23:47,800
those. 
Situations where he probably 

495
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,400
wasn't well, prepared for 
running a team. 

496
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,800
He had excellent technical 
skills, but I think he needed to

497
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,800
work on his people skills a bit,
his management skills. 

498
00:23:56,900 --> 00:23:58,900
I don't think he'd had any 
training in this area. 

499
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:03,100
So what I found was he could 
solve technical problems, but 

500
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:06,700
what he wasn't doing very much 
was sort of bringing the team 

501
00:24:06,700 --> 00:24:09,700
together, coordinating the sort 
of impactful work that each 

502
00:24:09,700 --> 00:24:12,800
engineer could be doing to help 
themselves to help the company 

503
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,000
to help other teams. 
So, what I found was the team 

504
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,100
was Generally not very busy. 
Surprisingly for a small team. 

505
00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,600
There wasn't that much for us to
work on and there were periods 

506
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,500
of time when I felt like 
everybody was just sitting 

507
00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:27,300
around not doing much work at 
all. 

508
00:24:27,300 --> 00:24:30,000
And I thought, hang on a second.
I know that there's a lot of 

509
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,900
work to be done because at this 
point, I was eight years into my

510
00:24:33,900 --> 00:24:36,700
career. 
I was seeing the pain that the 

511
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:38,800
support team were going through 
because they didn't have the 

512
00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:40,800
right tooling to help our 
customers. 

513
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:44,800
We had error logs that filled up
every day with recurring 

514
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,700
problems that looked like they 
Probably fairly simple to fix if

515
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:51,000
only, somebody would care to 
look at them. 

516
00:24:51,100 --> 00:24:54,600
And so, that's where, while my 
manager was very busy with many 

517
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:56,900
other meetings. 
He was barely ever around. 

518
00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:58,400
I started asking other 
Engineers. 

519
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,500
Hey, are you working on anything
at the moment? 

520
00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:03,100
If you're not busy, do you think
maybe you could take a look at 

521
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,600
this particular bug? 
It looks like this era happens 

522
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:07,900
every night at 2 a.m. 
It's probably some sort of 

523
00:25:07,900 --> 00:25:10,200
process. 
Maybe you could take a look and 

524
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:12,500
people reacted really well to 
that because it gave them some 

525
00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,400
Direction. 
People were getting a little 

526
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:16,300
bored at work, which might sound
surprising. 

527
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,800
Rising but, you know, being 
bored at work shouldn't be a 

528
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,200
thing, right? 
So when people got the sort of 

529
00:25:21,208 --> 00:25:22,500
direction from me, they would 
go. 

530
00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:24,100
Yeah, sure. 
I'll take a look and then they'd

531
00:25:24,100 --> 00:25:26,000
solve the problem and then they 
feel pretty good about 

532
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:27,700
themselves because they solve 
the problem. 

533
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:29,300
They've got an effects out to 
production. 

534
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,400
I just kept doing this. 
And in that sense. 

535
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,900
I was kind of leading the team 
without having the title. 

536
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:37,400
And I think it was because I had
a manager who hadn't had that 

537
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,200
sort of training. 
He probably didn't even have 

538
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:42,700
that much of an interest in 
running a team yet to that end. 

539
00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,300
We almost swapped positions. 
I became the team leader of the 

540
00:25:46,500 --> 00:25:50,200
Team and he took on an architect
role for a different team. 

541
00:25:50,300 --> 00:25:52,900
And I think he ended up being 
able to move back into something

542
00:25:52,900 --> 00:25:55,800
that he really enjoyed doing, 
which is being Hands-On again, 

543
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:57,900
as an individual contributor at 
a very high level. 

544
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,200
Because he did have all those 
really excellent technical 

545
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,300
skills and it created a space 
for me to move into the 

546
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:06,300
leadership role that I had 
resisted for so long, but as it 

547
00:26:06,300 --> 00:26:08,800
turns out I was doing anyways, 
right? 

548
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:11,700
Right, right. 
So he's also an accidental kind 

549
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,300
of story for you. 
Picking up this management 

550
00:26:14,300 --> 00:26:16,100
skills, right, right. 
Yeah. 

551
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:20,300
So any before our conversation 
today, we exchanged messages. 

552
00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:24,800
You have one particular probably
observation about women being 

553
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,700
offered management role earlier 
in their career. 

554
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,600
Maybe you can share a little bit
more your observation and what 

555
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:33,400
you think your message for the 
women out there listening to 

556
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:35,700
this episode as well. 
Sure. 

557
00:26:35,900 --> 00:26:40,300
So over the past few years. 
I unfortunately have not worked 

558
00:26:40,300 --> 00:26:43,600
with that many women and it, 
perhaps if you think about what 

559
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,200
I said at the beginning of this 
conversation, it wasn't. 

560
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:49,800
Charged at school and then they 
just weren't that many women 

561
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,100
doing computer science at 
University either and it starts 

562
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:55,600
very early on. 
There's not much of a supply of 

563
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,800
women going into this industry. 
I have worked with a few women 

564
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,300
and I've been in a few women 
groups and women and it groups 

565
00:27:02,300 --> 00:27:05,000
throughout my career. 
What I've learned is that a lot 

566
00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,700
of women, they have a desire to 
get into software engineering, 

567
00:27:08,700 --> 00:27:12,000
they do the degree, and then 
they start working and very 

568
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:16,100
quickly, they seem to be singled
out for their people skills. 

569
00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,100
I think there is a perception 
that women have really good soft

570
00:27:19,100 --> 00:27:22,000
skills just naturally and that 
we are able to maybe rally the 

571
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,400
troops. 
We're willing to take on tasks 

572
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,400
that require sort of 
coordinating, the team talking 

573
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,500
to team members. 
Maybe we show a bit more 

574
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:31,700
empathy. 
That's not at all to say that 

575
00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:33,700
men are not capable of doing 
this or that, they're not good 

576
00:27:33,700 --> 00:27:35,800
at doing this. 
But there does seem to be a 

577
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,500
perception that women are 
particularly good at this. 

578
00:27:38,700 --> 00:27:42,800
I have recently spoken to, I can
think of three women, which is 

579
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:45,600
probably the total sum of women 
that I've spoken to and I teeth 

580
00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:48,400
without the hospital. 
While who all had the same story

581
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,400
that very early on maybe a year 
or two out of University. 

582
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,300
They were already being offered 
team lead positions in all three

583
00:27:56,300 --> 00:27:58,500
cases. 
They saw it as an opportunity 

584
00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:03,000
for promotion and they took that
role and now 10 15 years down 

585
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,900
the line, when they look back on
it. 

586
00:28:05,100 --> 00:28:08,800
They all said to me, that they 
kind of wished that they hadn't 

587
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,400
because it meant that they 
didn't get to practice their 

588
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:14,000
skills very much. 
They moved up through those 

589
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,800
ranks very quickly. 
They did go into Computer 

590
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,400
programming because they loved 
solving the puzzles so much, but

591
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,000
they never got much of an 
opportunity to actually do that 

592
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,000
in a couple of instances. 
They even said, Gee. 

593
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,000
I wish I'd had a manager, like 
you who might have talked me out

594
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,400
of that at the time and reminded
me why I became a software 

595
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,800
engineer in the first place. 
So, my advice to women, who are 

596
00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:38,300
listening to this podcast, who 
are in this situation, would be 

597
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,400
not to rush into it, just 
because it is offered to you. 

598
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,700
It doesn't mean you have to take
it, that opportunity will be 

599
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:46,800
there for you. 
They On. 

600
00:28:46,900 --> 00:28:49,700
If it's something that you 
absolutely know you want to do 

601
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,100
by all means do it and hopefully
your manager can support you 

602
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:55,800
through that. 
But if you are loving solving 

603
00:28:55,800 --> 00:29:00,000
the problems right now, learning
new skills, working on more 

604
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,400
complex systems distributed 
systems. 

605
00:29:02,700 --> 00:29:05,500
Then stick with that for now 
because you know, what, moving 

606
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:09,500
into management is not that hard
but moving back into being as an

607
00:29:09,500 --> 00:29:12,200
icy from management. 
I think that's a little harder. 

608
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,700
I've had a little bit of 
experience in this, after two 

609
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:17,400
years of being a manager, I 
actually, Went back into a role 

610
00:29:17,400 --> 00:29:19,100
where I was an individual 
contributor. 

611
00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:21,800
At least part of my role was 
writing code again, and I was 

612
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,400
pretty Rusty, you know, because 
I hadn't really kept up those 

613
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,900
skills because there's so much 
to learn about being a manager 

614
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:30,000
that you end up spending more of
your time, learning how to do 

615
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,900
effective one-on-ones, how to do
performance reviews, how to help

616
00:29:33,900 --> 00:29:36,900
build career progression 
Frameworks this, our whole host 

617
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:40,200
of things that you need to learn
about technical leadership that 

618
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,400
you don't have enough time in 
the day to also continue to code

619
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:45,900
as well, and immerse yourself in
those really truly complex 

620
00:29:45,900 --> 00:29:48,700
problems. 
That will teach you more so it's

621
00:29:48,700 --> 00:29:51,500
certainly doable but it's harder
to come back into an individual 

622
00:29:51,500 --> 00:29:54,200
contributor role. 
I reckoned just do what you 

623
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,000
think is best for you, but don't
feel pressured that just because

624
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,200
you're being offered a role in 
management. 

625
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:02,200
You don't have to take it right 
now and maybe take it at a later

626
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,400
stage when you're ready to take 
that next step which is a 

627
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,000
fundamental change. 
I think so, I guess that's my 

628
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,100
advice. 
I was kind of like interested 

629
00:30:10,100 --> 00:30:13,100
when you're sharing this story 
about manager, having to support

630
00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:15,600
the upcoming manager and you 
yourself. 

631
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:18,600
I mean, like, look, Looking at 
your history in your career, 

632
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,300
right? 
Many people actually said that 

633
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:23,500
you have a particularly unique 
way of growing people. 

634
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:25,900
So the keywords that they're 
mentioned, most of the times 

635
00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:29,700
it's like you're growing them to
do more self-reflection and by 

636
00:30:29,700 --> 00:30:33,400
telling your story, so maybe you
can teach us your unique 

637
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,800
approach here. 
Why do you have this kind of a 

638
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:39,300
unique angle on how you grow, 
people, true self reflection and

639
00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:40,900
storytelling? 
Sure. 

640
00:30:40,900 --> 00:30:43,700
Let's see. 
When I first became a leader, a 

641
00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:46,200
manager of an engineering team 
and I started doing one. 

642
00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:49,100
Ones I was told one-on-ones is 
something that I had to do. 

643
00:30:49,100 --> 00:30:50,700
So, all right, let's get onto 
that. 

644
00:30:50,700 --> 00:30:53,400
I noticed that most people 
didn't really want to talk about

645
00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,300
work. 
They wanted to talk about what 

646
00:30:55,300 --> 00:30:58,500
was going on in their life and 
it made me realize that 

647
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:00,200
everybody's different. 
Everybody has their own 

648
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:01,600
background. 
They've got their own stuff 

649
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,600
going on. 
They've got their lives to lead.

650
00:31:03,700 --> 00:31:07,000
Some people have very 
complicated situations when 

651
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,000
you're in that space, you know, 
you bring this with you to work.

652
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,900
So perhaps, you look at somebody
and you thinking gee, they're 

653
00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:16,200
not performing as well as I 
thought they might in this role.

654
00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:19,000
Ole but it's may not be anything
to do with the lack of skill. 

655
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,200
It might be more to do with how 
the rest of their life is 

656
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:25,500
evolving at this particular 
point in time, so I thought it's

657
00:31:25,500 --> 00:31:29,000
very important to take a step 
back and look at a person's 

658
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:32,200
situation in a more holistic way
through that. 

659
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,000
I came to realize that there was
so much more to Growing other 

660
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,400
Engineers than just teaching 
them raw skills. 

661
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,300
That the end of the day, there's
plenty of material out there. 

662
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:44,600
If you want to learn how to set 
up a redis case, you can find a 

663
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:46,900
tutorial on that. 
I don't need to You myself, 

664
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:48,500
you'll probably figure it out 
yourself. 

665
00:31:48,500 --> 00:31:50,400
And to be honest. 
It's probably best if you figure

666
00:31:50,400 --> 00:31:52,900
it out yourself and to be shown 
by me. 

667
00:31:53,100 --> 00:31:56,200
I think it's important as 
Leaders to be humble and to be 

668
00:31:56,200 --> 00:32:00,000
bold to share your own failures 
and to share your struggles and 

669
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,100
challenges. 
If other people can see that 

670
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:05,400
you've gotten to where you are 
in your career, and still, 

671
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,300
you've also faced a bunch of 
difficulties throughout your 

672
00:32:08,300 --> 00:32:10,600
career. 
I for one, I don't like public 

673
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:12,600
speaking. 
You know, I think it's really 

674
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,800
scary to get up in front of a 
bunch of people and talk about a

675
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:18,000
subject that. 
That I feel like maybe everybody

676
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:19,800
else in the room knows more 
about than I do. 

677
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:23,800
However, I've done it and when 
I've done it, I've had a great 

678
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,200
time. 
And when you actually stop and 

679
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,500
think about it, then those 
people are in the room wanting 

680
00:32:28,500 --> 00:32:31,600
to listen to you because perhaps
you'd know more about it than 

681
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,200
you, give yourself credit for 
and it's about taking a deep 

682
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,300
breath and just calmly speaking 
about this thing that you do 

683
00:32:37,300 --> 00:32:40,100
know a lot about if I tell 
stories like that to other 

684
00:32:40,100 --> 00:32:42,800
people who are sharing with me, 
their fears about something 

685
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,400
something that's may be 
preventing them from growing. 

686
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,500
Then they Might have another 
think about it and they might 

687
00:32:48,500 --> 00:32:51,400
find some courage to go and try 
that themselves in other 

688
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,800
situations. 
I can give some insight into how

689
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,400
complex a particular type of 
project was. 

690
00:32:57,400 --> 00:32:59,300
For me. 
I found that almost every single

691
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:02,600
job I've had has required some 
kind of data migration data. 

692
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:05,400
Migrations can be pretty 
complicated and often need to be

693
00:33:05,408 --> 00:33:09,000
done in many steps. 
When you describe something like

694
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,200
that to a team. 
It might give them some more 

695
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:14,600
ideas on how they can approach 
it or why it's important to put 

696
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,300
something in place today. 
That might help. 

697
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:19,800
Help them later on. 
So I try very hard not to solve 

698
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,200
the problem myself anymore. 
Even as a leader in engineering,

699
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,400
for some time. 
I felt like I needed to be able 

700
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,200
to solve all the problems. 
But I've gradually come to 

701
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,900
understand. 
I don't need to know how to 

702
00:33:29,900 --> 00:33:32,600
solve all the problems, but I do
need to act as a safety net. 

703
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,400
I need to ask the right 
questions at the right time. 

704
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,800
Tell some stories that might 
help Inspire someone else to 

705
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,700
think about something slightly 
differently. 

706
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:43,000
I do seem to have had some 
success with this. 

707
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:46,600
And I absolutely love hearing 
from Engineers that I've Worked 

708
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,200
closely with that. 
I've had a positive impact on 

709
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,100
their life. 
I've made them think about 

710
00:33:51,100 --> 00:33:53,200
something in a way that they 
just hadn't yet. 

711
00:33:53,300 --> 00:33:56,000
And now they're sort of equipped
with a tool that maybe they 

712
00:33:56,000 --> 00:33:58,300
didn't have before to just 
question things. 

713
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,100
I think it's so important to 
question things ask, why I 

714
00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:05,200
really try to drive a curiosity 
mindset within engineering 

715
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,800
teams. 
We can get bogged down with the 

716
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:10,199
day-to-day. 
There's always a fire to put out

717
00:34:10,199 --> 00:34:13,699
or a new project that needs to 
be launched when an issue arises

718
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:16,600
or you know, there's an incident
or something, don't just Fix it 

719
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:18,900
and move on because then you 
won't have learnt anything from 

720
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:22,400
them if you stop and think. 
But why did that happen? 

721
00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,800
There will be a reason computers
not magic. 

722
00:34:25,900 --> 00:34:27,699
We make them do what they do, 
right? 

723
00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:31,199
So, yeah, the people as 
Engineers who have that control.

724
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,900
We just need to remember that. 
We are in control of the machine

725
00:34:34,900 --> 00:34:36,699
and we do need to just question.
Why? 

726
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:39,000
And when we go down that path 
will probably find something 

727
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,500
really insightful that will help
us on our next problem. 

728
00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:45,000
So yeah, these are the sorts of 
tools that I use to lead teams 

729
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,600
and Inspire engineers. 
Do what we hired them to do in 

730
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,199
the first place, you know, be 
the best engineer that they can 

731
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:52,800
be. 
So on the self-reflection part. 

732
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:56,199
Do you have some kind of common 
questions because you emphasize 

733
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:59,000
a lot about asking why asking 
the good question. 

734
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,000
So this is for people like 
software Engineers or any 

735
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,500
technical roles out there as 
individual contributor. 

736
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,500
Are there common self-reflection
questions that you would 

737
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:10,900
probably want to share with us 
for us to think about and Ponder

738
00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:12,400
ourselves. 
Yeah. 

739
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,400
So when I first joined a team in
that first one-on-one that Ty 

740
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,600
schedule was people. 
I actually have a set of 

741
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:20,700
questions that I asked straight 
away. 

742
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:24,100
The first one being, how did you
become a software engineer? 

743
00:35:24,300 --> 00:35:26,600
Tell me your story. 
And I think that's a really 

744
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,500
interesting question to start 
with, because it helps people 

745
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:32,700
start to rewind back to when 
they decided that they wanted to

746
00:35:32,700 --> 00:35:35,700
become a software engineer. 
The Myriad of ways that people 

747
00:35:35,700 --> 00:35:38,300
end up becoming a software 
engineer is just fascinating. 

748
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:41,700
But it also tells me a wee bit 
about what motivated them to 

749
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,800
become a software engineer, and 
the path that they've taken to 

750
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,900
where they are today. 
And So I start with a other 

751
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:51,200
questions that I asked, in that 
first one-on-one that help guide

752
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,500
questions later on in my journey
with them are things like what 

753
00:35:55,500 --> 00:35:58,800
do you think is working really 
well, in our team today? 

754
00:35:59,100 --> 00:36:02,300
And what do you think could be 
improved and what are you love 

755
00:36:02,300 --> 00:36:05,700
the best about your job? 
And what do you not like so much

756
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:07,900
about your job? 
The purpose of these questions 

757
00:36:07,900 --> 00:36:11,000
is not to then allow this person
to only ever work on the things 

758
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,400
that they like doing and avoid 
all the things that they don't 

759
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,600
like doing. 
But I'm looking for some common 

760
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,100
threads about about in 
efficiencies or frustrations 

761
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:20,400
within the team, you know, 
nobody likes to come to work and

762
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,700
be frustrated. 
I think if you start to sense 

763
00:36:22,700 --> 00:36:25,500
that there's a lot of 
frustration within the team, 

764
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:28,000
then you need to investigate 
that a bit deeper and try and 

765
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:31,400
solve those things as Engineers.
I think we do have a lot of 

766
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,200
frustrations when our pipelines 
are too slow or there are some 

767
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,300
unit tests that just randomly 
fail. 

768
00:36:36,500 --> 00:36:39,000
Gosh, is so many sorts of things
like this, that you don't have 

769
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:41,300
the access to the right 
technologies that you want to 

770
00:36:41,300 --> 00:36:43,300
use and that makes your job a 
lot harder. 

771
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,700
And so I tend to ask people. 
What are you Find really 

772
00:36:46,700 --> 00:36:48,400
frustrating. 
And what are you spending time 

773
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,500
on that? 
You wish you didn't have to 

774
00:36:50,500 --> 00:36:52,600
spend time on? 
And what's really interesting is

775
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,300
when I ask that question, most 
people they don't have an answer

776
00:36:55,300 --> 00:36:57,100
for me, straight away. 
And that's okay. 

777
00:36:57,100 --> 00:36:58,800
They don't need to have an 
answer straight away. 

778
00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:01,500
What I want to do is encourage 
them to think about it. 

779
00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:05,100
So I say, let's chat about it in
our next one-on-one, and 

780
00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:07,800
whenever you get a little bit 
frustrated between now and then,

781
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:10,300
just make a note of it. 
So we can talk about it next 

782
00:37:10,300 --> 00:37:13,000
time and slowly, but surely I 
start getting these really 

783
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,100
interesting comments around a 
lack of process around. 

784
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:19,800
Something or that Engineers are 
not invited to participate in 

785
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,700
the design phase of a project, 
early enough pipelines being too

786
00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:28,300
slow or unreliable and that then
leads on, to me saying, all 

787
00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:30,700
right, there's a perfectly valid
in sight. 

788
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:32,500
So what are you going to do 
about it? 

789
00:37:33,100 --> 00:37:34,900
So, how can we make a change 
here? 

790
00:37:34,900 --> 00:37:36,800
How can we reduce that 
frustration? 

791
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:40,200
Because you're probably not the 
only one feeling this and then I

792
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:42,900
encourage that person to maybe 
go and speak to other people 

793
00:37:42,900 --> 00:37:46,600
about it and go and do some 
research about how they Prove 

794
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:50,200
this or why is it that this 
thing in particular frustrates 

795
00:37:50,200 --> 00:37:53,000
you, I guess, in that way. 
I'm really trying to get people 

796
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,700
to think deeper than just. 
The obvious thing is for people 

797
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:58,100
to say, to me. 
What skills do I need to learn 

798
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:00,700
to become a better software 
engineer, and I don't have a 

799
00:38:00,707 --> 00:38:03,300
perfect answer for you there you
and I could maybe suggest some 

800
00:38:03,300 --> 00:38:05,800
particular technologies that are
very popular in the market right

801
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,000
now that maybe we use, maybe we 
might use in the future, but 

802
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,700
that's probably not as impactful
as getting you to a phrase. 

803
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:16,000
I use has to be the supplied to 
the unmet demand. 

804
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,300
And there are generally a bunch 
of unmet Demands within an 

805
00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:21,300
organization. 
Perhaps even within your own 

806
00:38:21,300 --> 00:38:25,600
team, things that you can make a
huge difference on if only, you 

807
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,300
just go and do it. 
You don't need to seek 

808
00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:29,500
permission. 
If there's time, just go and do 

809
00:38:29,500 --> 00:38:32,400
it and you'll make someone's 
life so much easier, they'll be 

810
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:34,300
grateful for it, and they'll 
thank you for it. 

811
00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:36,900
And you'll have had some impact 
and created a positive 

812
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:39,300
experience with somebody. 
And that's how you end up 

813
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:42,100
growing and being noticed 
eventually, hopefully getting 

814
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:45,300
promoted for it. 
So there's a virtuous cycle to 

815
00:38:45,300 --> 00:38:48,100
be had from Just asking 
questions and making people 

816
00:38:48,100 --> 00:38:50,000
reflect on what makes them 
happy. 

817
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,400
What drains them, what 
frustrates them, where they get 

818
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:56,600
their energy. 
I think that sums it up, right. 

819
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,400
I really, really love that. 
In particular the phrase be the 

820
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,900
supply to the unmet demand and I
think I can relate to this. 

821
00:39:02,900 --> 00:39:05,500
A lot of times as well, many 
people actually took 

822
00:39:05,500 --> 00:39:08,700
frustrations for granted. 
For example, like we mentioning,

823
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:10,300
you know, the pipeline is the 
okay. 

824
00:39:10,300 --> 00:39:12,100
Maybe it is slow. 
There's nothing that we can do 

825
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:14,300
about it. 
It's just slow or the test of 

826
00:39:14,300 --> 00:39:16,200
breaking. 
It it just breaks from the Time 

827
00:39:16,207 --> 00:39:17,900
to time, there's nothing we can 
do about it. 

828
00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:20,400
So I think he actually sees good
mindset to always think. 

829
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:21,800
Okay. 
Why is this happening? 

830
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,900
Is there anything that we can 
always improve and make it more 

831
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:27,700
effective, more efficient and 
maybe also have a group guy 

832
00:39:27,700 --> 00:39:31,100
drinks brainstorming, how to 
improve on things that they 

833
00:39:31,100 --> 00:39:34,100
don't like as a team. 
So I really, really love that. 

834
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:37,800
So any you also work in the 
message but before coming back 

835
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,000
to New Zealand, so from there, I
think it's also a great story 

836
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,800
where you had a chance to lead a
team that grows organically 

837
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,000
within less than a year. 
You can tell a story about your 

838
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,200
experience, your journey and 
message, but what did you learn 

839
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:54,000
from there? 
So message, but unfortunately, I

840
00:39:54,008 --> 00:39:56,700
only spent a year at message 
burden is just under a year 

841
00:39:56,700 --> 00:39:59,700
because I came back to New 
Zealand really to be closer to 

842
00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:02,400
my family and these days of 
Corona in that time. 

843
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:03,400
It mrs. 
Bird though. 

844
00:40:03,700 --> 00:40:06,100
Wow message Bob moved really 
fast. 

845
00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:10,000
They are very very high Growth 
Company very fast-paced and in 

846
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,500
more ways than one. 
So for example, they're growing 

847
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:15,900
really quickly is and they're 
hiring many people and any given

848
00:40:15,900 --> 00:40:17,500
month. 
If there were 10 Engineers 

849
00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:21,600
starting and sometimes I might 
not even have known that an 

850
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:24,100
engineer was starting in my team
until the day before. 

851
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,000
So, we had to be very adaptable,
very flexible, and ready to take

852
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,300
on whatever challenge, may 
present itself. 

853
00:40:30,300 --> 00:40:32,100
In the next day, on the other 
hand. 

854
00:40:32,100 --> 00:40:34,800
They were also growing 
incredibly rapidly in terms of 

855
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,700
the number of customers and the 
usage of the services that we 

856
00:40:37,700 --> 00:40:40,400
were building. 
So, particularly in my team, I 

857
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,100
started off as an engineering 
manager for One Tribe. 

858
00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:45,800
The conversations tribe, which 
when I joined was only about six

859
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:49,000
people. 
And over those 11 to 12 months 

860
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,300
that team grew to about 12 
people. 

861
00:40:51,300 --> 00:40:54,400
And then I took over another 
tribe as well, the dashboard 

862
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:57,000
tribe. 
So overall I ended up being 

863
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,800
responsible for about 25 people,
which was a lot more than when I

864
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,600
started, right? 
So that in itself was a big 

865
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,900
change for me. 
It was also something that 

866
00:41:05,900 --> 00:41:09,800
allowed me and my colleagues to 
help grow some other Engineers 

867
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,200
into leaders, because there was 
no way that I could personally 

868
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:16,800
support and Lead 25 individual. 
Computers. 

869
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,400
That wouldn't be fair on them 
and I just wouldn't be able to 

870
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,000
do it. 
I was very lucky to have three 

871
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:25,100
different individual 
contributors who were not only 

872
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:28,100
very senior in their own skills 
and their Technologies, they 

873
00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:31,100
were working with, but very 
interested in moving into a 

874
00:41:31,107 --> 00:41:32,900
management role. 
And I think that's really 

875
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:34,900
important. 
We've spoken about being given 

876
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:37,200
the opportunity to move into a 
management role. 

877
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,100
It's not about throwing someone 
into a management role who 

878
00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:43,300
doesn't have an interest in it. 
And this case, I was lucky 

879
00:41:43,300 --> 00:41:46,400
enough that there were people 
within the teams who Shown an 

880
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:51,300
interest in, they wanted to have
more context about what kind of 

881
00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:53,900
work we were doing. 
They wanted to have more input 

882
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:56,200
into the sort of work. 
We were taking on, or the order 

883
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:59,000
in which things are being done. 
They wanted to help other 

884
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,600
Engineers grow, which they were 
actually already doing. 

885
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,800
And I saw a lot of how I had 
moved into Management in them. 

886
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:09,200
And so it was just coincidental 
that we needed people in these 

887
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:13,300
roles and I was able to help 
them move into these team lead 

888
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:15,500
roles. 
The really interesting thing for

889
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:18,900
me was Was that they were very 
different individuals. 

890
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:23,200
One of these guys was incredibly
technical like a systems 

891
00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,900
thinker. 
Very process-driven and that 

892
00:42:25,900 --> 00:42:28,600
worked perfectly with the people
that he ultimately was 

893
00:42:28,700 --> 00:42:31,300
responsible for leading. 
And the sorts of projects He was

894
00:42:31,300 --> 00:42:35,100
working on another engineer who 
was incredibly empathetic, 

895
00:42:35,100 --> 00:42:37,800
always wanting to help people. 
Just the kind of Soul. 

896
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,200
You'll have ever met with his 
technical background combined, 

897
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:43,800
with that desire to help those 
around him. 

898
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:46,900
He also made an incredible 
leader who Manage to steam in a 

899
00:42:46,908 --> 00:42:48,800
very different way to the other 
person. 

900
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,100
This just goes to show that 
everybody has their own style 

901
00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:55,100
and we certainly don't want to 
go for a one-size-fits-all 

902
00:42:55,100 --> 00:42:57,200
solution when it comes to 
leadership. 

903
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:59,600
Everybody. 
Does it in their own way? 

904
00:42:59,900 --> 00:43:03,100
Then this case it just worked 
incredibly well and I saw them 

905
00:43:03,100 --> 00:43:06,300
both gaining skills and 
leadership in such different 

906
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:08,200
ways. 
The ways that work for them. 

907
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:12,600
The sorts of lessons that that 
taught me was it made me reflect

908
00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:15,900
back on how I had become a 
manager and the sorts of 

909
00:43:16,100 --> 00:43:19,100
Questions, I had, you know, I 
remember thinking so where's the

910
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:22,500
list of tasks that I must do? 
They had a day when I'm a leader

911
00:43:22,500 --> 00:43:24,700
and my manager at the time 
saying, well, there's no this, 

912
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:26,800
you know, it just gonna have to 
figure it out on your own. 

913
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,900
I remember when speaking to 
these new leads. 

914
00:43:30,100 --> 00:43:33,700
They sensed that their 
performance would now be 

915
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:37,500
determined in different ways. 
So, how can they still be seen 

916
00:43:37,500 --> 00:43:40,600
to be doing a great job? 
If it's not writing code all day

917
00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,100
long, they're not being judged 
on how great their coders and 

918
00:43:44,100 --> 00:43:47,800
the mindset there is that's 
Because as a team lead at 

919
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,200
message, but you're still 
writing code for 50% of the 

920
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,500
time, but the other half is 
you're being judged more on how 

921
00:43:54,500 --> 00:43:56,700
your team is performing and how 
the engineers that you're 

922
00:43:56,700 --> 00:44:00,700
responsible for our growing and 
their satisfaction and how 

923
00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:04,400
they're performing. 
So it is a mind shift and if you

924
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,000
have a little bit of imposter 
syndrome, then that's doubled at

925
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,400
that moment in time because 
you're completely new to this 

926
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,400
type of role. 
I remember talking to them about

927
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,700
how to do one-on-ones, how to 
conduct performance reviews, how

928
00:44:15,700 --> 00:44:18,300
to give A feedback I think 
feedback is something that's 

929
00:44:18,300 --> 00:44:21,300
very difficult to get, right. 
It's so important. 

930
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,700
But yet I remember reading 
something that said you need to 

931
00:44:24,700 --> 00:44:28,000
have had about five positive 
interactions with somebody 

932
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:30,600
before. 
You can rightfully give them 

933
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,500
feedback that they won't react 
in a defensive way too. 

934
00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:36,500
If you try and give someone 
feedback before, you've had 

935
00:44:36,500 --> 00:44:39,900
enough positive interactions 
with them, they'll probably just

936
00:44:39,900 --> 00:44:42,100
put their fences up and not want
to listen to it. 

937
00:44:42,100 --> 00:44:44,700
And they, my are you with it. 
It's not the purpose of giving 

938
00:44:44,700 --> 00:44:47,500
feedback, right? 
So, The sharing these sorts of 

939
00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:51,100
little insights that I've read, 
or I've sort of felt myself with

940
00:44:51,100 --> 00:44:53,700
them to try and prepare them 
best for the sorts of 

941
00:44:53,700 --> 00:44:56,100
situations. 
They may now be faced with which

942
00:44:56,100 --> 00:44:59,000
will probably be different to 
those that I've faced, but just 

943
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,000
trying to build their little 
toolkit as much as I could. 

944
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:05,000
I think the other thing that I 
would encourage other 

945
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,000
engineering leads, when you're 
in that situation is talk to 

946
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,000
your peers. 
It's not just about forming 

947
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:13,300
relationships with your team. 
The people that you're now 

948
00:45:13,300 --> 00:45:14,500
leading. 
It's also about forming 

949
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:17,300
relationships with other people 
that you're or level and the 

950
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,300
people that you report to 
yourself. 

951
00:45:19,300 --> 00:45:22,000
It's all about relationship 
forming, because ultimately, 

952
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,600
you're going to need to have 
some difficult conversations. 

953
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,500
You need to be able to 
negotiate. 

954
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:30,100
So the more relationships, you 
build with these people, find 

955
00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:33,100
reasons to speak to them about 
something and collaborate on 

956
00:45:33,100 --> 00:45:35,100
something else. 
These are the sorts of skills 

957
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:37,400
that you need to start building 
out more and more. 

958
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,700
But that's what makes a team 
lead role quite difficult 

959
00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:42,000
because you do need to still 
keep your hands on the keyboard,

960
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:45,000
and you need to be able to solve
those technical problems as well

961
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,000
together with your Those are 
some of the lessons that I 

962
00:45:48,008 --> 00:45:51,300
definitely had the opportunity 
to learn at message bird. 

963
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:55,400
I think I also learnt that it's 
really important to bake a 

964
00:45:55,408 --> 00:45:57,800
little bit of technical 
excellence and to all the work 

965
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,000
you do. 
Because when you're a startup or

966
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,000
a scale up the tendency is to 
move really fast and deliver 

967
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,300
software, incredibly fast, but 
inevitably you end up taking 

968
00:46:07,300 --> 00:46:11,100
some shortcuts which over a 
longer duration of time can end 

969
00:46:11,100 --> 00:46:13,600
up piling up and you know, 
technical debt exists 

970
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,500
everywhere, but at some point I 
think you'll start That to feel 

971
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:19,500
like the majority of the time 
that you spend is spent 

972
00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:23,400
reviewing old work that now 
needs to be upgraded or fixed or

973
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,500
migrated away from and then 
you're not able to deliver new 

974
00:46:26,500 --> 00:46:30,200
features as quickly as you might
have been otherwise able to so 

975
00:46:30,300 --> 00:46:32,800
it's a balance. 
It's definitely a balance and 

976
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:34,700
that's something else that I 
think I learned that message 

977
00:46:34,700 --> 00:46:37,300
bird is finding that right 
balance with the team. 

978
00:46:37,700 --> 00:46:39,400
Yeah. 
It was a really exciting place 

979
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,800
to work with fabulous. 
People like so many intelligent 

980
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:44,900
very kind people to work 
alongside. 

981
00:46:44,900 --> 00:46:48,200
It was a great experience. 
I like the story where you 

982
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,800
actually promote leaders within 
your team. 

983
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,300
And I think it's probably one of
the responsibilities as well as 

984
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:57,800
a leader as an engineering 
leader to actually probably find

985
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:01,300
talents within your team who can
actually grow and assume this 

986
00:47:01,300 --> 00:47:04,100
role rather than pick the people
and throw them into this new 

987
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:06,300
role. 
So growing the people within 

988
00:47:06,300 --> 00:47:09,100
your team to become leaders. 
Right at the is also Worth to 

989
00:47:09,100 --> 00:47:11,700
share for other engineering 
leaders who are listening to 

990
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:14,100
this episode. 
So how do you actually first 

991
00:47:14,100 --> 00:47:15,900
spot, the talents within the 
team? 

992
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:19,400
Team who may make a good card to
be a good technical leaders. 

993
00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:23,000
And then how long do you think 
should they take before? 

994
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:26,300
They actually assume the role? 
Or is it more like opportunistic

995
00:47:26,300 --> 00:47:29,500
basis where you see probably 
when the team grows unit more 

996
00:47:29,500 --> 00:47:31,800
technical leaders in the team 
that you promote them or is 

997
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:35,400
there more like a progression? 
Well, I think this comes back to

998
00:47:35,400 --> 00:47:38,900
having that close relationship 
with your team members learning 

999
00:47:38,900 --> 00:47:41,700
more about them as people and 
what drives them. 

1000
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:44,900
So in my interactions with all 
the engineers that I was 

1001
00:47:44,900 --> 00:47:47,900
leading, they were Engineers 
that when I spoke to them, it 

1002
00:47:47,900 --> 00:47:51,300
was clear that their passion, 
lay in solving the technical 

1003
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:53,200
problems. 
They would describe their role 

1004
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:55,100
as hey. 
I'm being paid to solve puzzles 

1005
00:47:55,100 --> 00:47:56,600
everyday. 
I love my job. 

1006
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,300
That person probably wasn't 
super interested in spending 

1007
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:03,100
more of their time managing 
other people, but in those 

1008
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:05,900
interactions that I had with my 
team's, there were these 

1009
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:08,700
particular Engineers who would 
talk to me about wanting to 

1010
00:48:08,700 --> 00:48:12,000
solve some of the other sorts of
problems that we've discussed 

1011
00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:16,500
more around, how to refine a 
process on how to How to create 

1012
00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:19,800
an MVP, what's the process that 
we should be using to determine 

1013
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,100
and build out an MVP? 
I had one engineer, one of these

1014
00:48:23,100 --> 00:48:26,800
two leaders that are mentioned 
before he was very interested in

1015
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,100
how to improve and develop a 
culture. 

1016
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:33,000
And these are not problems that 
a engineer who wants to remain 

1017
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,600
as an individual contributor 
thinks about right? 

1018
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,300
So it's through those sorts of 
conversations that I started 

1019
00:48:38,300 --> 00:48:41,600
getting a real feel, before we 
even discuss the opportunity of 

1020
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:43,300
maybe moving into that sort of 
role. 

1021
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:45,900
I think this person might be 
interested in this. 

1022
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,800
Type of role and when as an 
organization, we saw the need to

1023
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:53,400
have leads in these teams, but 
for me, it was a no-brainer. 

1024
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:56,400
I have people who I think would 
be great in these sorts of 

1025
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:58,300
roles, but they are actually 
interested in it. 

1026
00:48:58,300 --> 00:49:01,700
And so then I had discussions 
with my manager, within the HR 

1027
00:49:01,700 --> 00:49:04,700
department and then I went back 
and spoke to these particular 

1028
00:49:04,700 --> 00:49:07,200
engineers and proposed the idea 
to them of. 

1029
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:09,400
How would they feel about such a
change? 

1030
00:49:09,700 --> 00:49:12,900
I also think it's important to 
pose this question, as kind of 

1031
00:49:12,900 --> 00:49:15,100
an experiment. 
Maybe it doesn't work out, and 

1032
00:49:15,100 --> 00:49:17,500
that has to be okay. 
A as well, maybe they give it a 

1033
00:49:17,508 --> 00:49:20,000
go and they realized that it's 
not for them. 

1034
00:49:20,100 --> 00:49:22,300
All they wanted to do was to see
if it was something that they 

1035
00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:25,000
could try out. 
So maybe before officially 

1036
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,800
changing their title, they can 
go through a period of time 

1037
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:30,100
where you give them some more 
responsibilities. 

1038
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:33,600
Maybe not yet managing people 
but maybe more mentoring other 

1039
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,700
Engineers, maybe helping them 
may be leading bigger projects 

1040
00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:40,100
projects that require cross team
collaboration. 

1041
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:43,500
And these are all going to start
exercising, the sorts of skills 

1042
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:45,800
that they're going to need as a 
leader before they are. 

1043
00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,000
Officially become somebody's 
manager and that gives them. 

1044
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,200
Maybe some insight into the 
sorts of day-to-day tasks that 

1045
00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:54,500
they will be doing and whether 
it's really what they think they

1046
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:56,600
should be doing at this point in
their careers. 

1047
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,600
I agree with you. 
I think is so important to try 

1048
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:02,000
and promote within you hire. 
Excellent engineers. 

1049
00:50:02,100 --> 00:50:05,000
And then if you don't give them 
opportunities to grow, they'll 

1050
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,600
go somewhere else. 
So you want to retain them. 

1051
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,300
And in order to do that, you 
have to carve out a path for 

1052
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:13,500
them to take and some cases that
might be more towards people 

1053
00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:15,800
leadership and other cases it 
might be more. 

1054
00:50:15,900 --> 00:50:19,200
Odds, principal staff engineer 
levels, but I do think it's very

1055
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:21,800
important to look forward and 
forecasts. 

1056
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:25,300
Where could this person be in 
125 years if they stayed with 

1057
00:50:25,300 --> 00:50:27,000
us? 
Will there be a position for 

1058
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,300
them to move towards and have 
more responsibility? 

1059
00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:31,200
More impact. 
Thanks. 

1060
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,100
Anyway, for sharing your story. 
It's been a great conversation. 

1061
00:50:34,100 --> 00:50:37,400
I learn a lot like when to 
actually, I took a management 

1062
00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,900
role and some of the guiding 
principles you have around all 

1063
00:50:40,900 --> 00:50:43,200
these including self-reflection,
the importance of 

1064
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,900
self-reflection finding 
opportunity to improve. 

1065
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:47,600
In efficiencies and things like 
that. 

1066
00:50:47,700 --> 00:50:50,300
So before we end the 
conversation, I normally would 

1067
00:50:50,300 --> 00:50:53,200
ask this question to share about
three technical leadership 

1068
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,100
wisdom for the listeners out 
there. 

1069
00:50:55,300 --> 00:50:57,200
So any would you be able to 
share yours? 

1070
00:50:57,900 --> 00:51:00,200
Yes, sure. 
I think the first one and 

1071
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,000
probably for me the most 
important one, very much along 

1072
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,900
the lines of what we've just 
spoken about. 

1073
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,500
It's so important to empower and
enable your engineers. 

1074
00:51:08,800 --> 00:51:10,700
And by this. 
I mean make sure that they're 

1075
00:51:10,700 --> 00:51:14,300
involved early and projects. 
Ask them about how they believe 

1076
00:51:14,300 --> 00:51:17,800
things could be done better. 
Ask them about how to improve in

1077
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,900
efficiencies lead them by asking
questions. 

1078
00:51:21,100 --> 00:51:24,100
Don't tell them how to do things
as a leader in technology, 

1079
00:51:24,100 --> 00:51:27,000
whether you're a people leader 
or you're just a very senior 

1080
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,100
individual contributor, Your 
Role shouldn't be to solve the 

1081
00:51:30,100 --> 00:51:32,400
problem for them. 
It should be the guide them to 

1082
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,900
solving it themselves because 
that's how you grow Future 

1083
00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:36,600
Leaders. 
In this sense. 

1084
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:40,200
I think I would encourage 
technology leaders to act more 

1085
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,700
like coaches than managers. 
And it does require building a 

1086
00:51:43,700 --> 00:51:46,700
lot of trust. 
So that would be Number one. 

1087
00:51:47,100 --> 00:51:50,300
My second point is around 
ensuring that everybody on the 

1088
00:51:50,300 --> 00:51:53,500
team has a sense of ownership 
over something that the team is 

1089
00:51:53,500 --> 00:51:56,800
responsible for. 
So something that I've come up 

1090
00:51:56,800 --> 00:51:59,600
with a over the last few years. 
I call it the component 

1091
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,400
ownership matrix. 
It's actually the result of a 

1092
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:05,200
bit of an exercise that I do 
with a team where we get 

1093
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:07,800
together as a team and we list 
out all of the components that 

1094
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,000
the team is responsible. 
For those components might be as

1095
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,600
large as a service or as 
granular as a particular 

1096
00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,800
component. 
That's may be very complex. 

1097
00:52:15,900 --> 00:52:18,700
Within a service or an 
application, you list all of 

1098
00:52:18,700 --> 00:52:23,200
those out and then you assign 
how level of criticality to that

1099
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:25,800
particular component. 
If it's incredibly, highly 

1100
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,800
critical or maybe if it breaks 
nobody really notices and it 

1101
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,200
doesn't really matter that much 
your Sinai level there. 

1102
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,500
And then you assign an owner and
a backup. 

1103
00:52:33,700 --> 00:52:36,900
So the purpose of doing this is 
not at all to say, the owner is 

1104
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:39,200
the only person who can never 
work on this piece of software 

1105
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:40,700
there. 
The owner and nobody else must 

1106
00:52:40,700 --> 00:52:42,800
touch it. 
It's more to ensure that 

1107
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,800
everybody in the team feels 
responsible for something. 

1108
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:47,900
They can treat it like their 
little baby. 

1109
00:52:47,900 --> 00:52:50,900
They get to look out for it and 
make sure that if there's a new 

1110
00:52:50,900 --> 00:52:53,700
project happening, will it 
impact their component? 

1111
00:52:53,700 --> 00:52:56,700
Should they be considering how 
it will impact their component? 

1112
00:52:56,700 --> 00:52:58,400
They should be keeping an eye on
the error logs. 

1113
00:52:58,400 --> 00:53:00,800
They should be, maybe keeping 
the libraries and dependencies 

1114
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:02,900
upgraded. 
I think that's really helpful 

1115
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:05,800
because it means that even when 
a new engineer starts on the 

1116
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,600
team, they feel like they're now
a part of the team. 

1117
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:10,000
They're responsible for 
something. 

1118
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:13,400
It also helps prevent situations
where there might be some very 

1119
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:15,100
senior Engineers. 
We've been in the team for a 

1120
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:18,200
long time being Responsible for 
most things, whereas the rest of

1121
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,400
the team are just there to help 
and aren't particularly 

1122
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,200
responsible for anything. 
So it helps distribute that 

1123
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,500
around and of course, the backup
is just somebody to be 

1124
00:53:25,500 --> 00:53:27,400
nominated. 
In case the owner is away on 

1125
00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,100
holiday or whatever, the case 
may be. 

1126
00:53:29,100 --> 00:53:33,600
So assigning responsibility and 
ownership over certain elements 

1127
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:35,300
of what a team is responsible 
for. 

1128
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:38,500
I think that really helps a team
and individuals grow. 

1129
00:53:38,500 --> 00:53:42,800
And the last one is I think we 
discussed this as well as to try

1130
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,100
and bake a little bit of extra 
quality into every piece of That

1131
00:53:46,100 --> 00:53:48,600
your team does. 
It's almost impossible to go 

1132
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:52,100
back and retrofit thousands of 
unit tests or integration tests 

1133
00:53:52,100 --> 00:53:54,800
in an application that has none.
Nobody wants to do that. 

1134
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:56,900
It's not practical. 
There's not enough time to do 

1135
00:53:56,900 --> 00:53:59,400
something like that. 
It would almost be so difficult 

1136
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,900
to try and unwind. 
What a piece of code was 

1137
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:04,400
supposed to do. 
If it's going to take an extra 

1138
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:06,600
hour or two, just do it while 
you're there, you know, if you 

1139
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,500
just do a little refactoring or 
a little bit of extra testing 

1140
00:54:09,500 --> 00:54:13,100
while you're there, it will just
help its cumulative over time. 

1141
00:54:13,100 --> 00:54:16,200
You'll end up with a much more 
stable solution that you don't 

1142
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,200
have to carve out a six-month 
project to go back and retrofit 

1143
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:22,300
some sort of quality into this 
particular application. 

1144
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:24,500
You just got it done as you went
along. 

1145
00:54:24,700 --> 00:54:27,800
I think that can really help 
stabilize and make systems more 

1146
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,900
resilient moving forward. 
I like to refer to this as not 

1147
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:36,000
borrowing from your future self.
So yeah, I mean like a lot of 

1148
00:54:36,000 --> 00:54:38,600
people tendency will be just 
rewrite it right? 

1149
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:41,300
I think I like the way you pray 
sit, like, bake it a little bit 

1150
00:54:41,300 --> 00:54:44,400
one at a time gradually and 
cumulatively you will improve 

1151
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:45,500
the system. 
Anyway. 

1152
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:48,400
Again, any for spending your 
time, for people who want to 

1153
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:50,500
find you online? 
Is there a good place for them 

1154
00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:52,700
to do? 
So mostly on LinkedIn at this 

1155
00:54:52,700 --> 00:54:54,800
particular point in time? 
Okay. 

1156
00:54:54,800 --> 00:54:56,600
I'll make sure to put that in 
the show notes. 

1157
00:54:56,700 --> 00:54:58,700
So, thanks again. 
Any hope you have a good day 

1158
00:54:58,700 --> 00:55:00,400
today. 
Thank you so much Henry. 

1159
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:05,600
It's been a pleasure. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1160
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,200
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1161
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:11,300
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1162
00:55:11,300 --> 00:55:14,600
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1163
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:16,900
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1164
00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:20,300
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1165
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:23,700
review and feedback. 
It really, really helps me a lot

1166
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:26,100
in order to grow these podcasts 
better. 

1167
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:30,000
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1168
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,200
the episode page at technology, 
know that death website. 

1169
00:55:33,500 --> 00:55:36,700
Putting the full transcript 
interesting quotes and links to 

1170
00:55:36,700 --> 00:55:39,600
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1171
00:55:40,100 --> 00:55:43,000
And lastly make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1172
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:46,400
list on technology on all the 
deaf to get notified for any 

1173
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:49,000
future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1174
00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,500
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1175
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:52,200
Goodbye.