1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,320 Most software engineers know how to keep their stuff up to date, 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:08,400 but somehow most projects I've been working on still failed. 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:15,080 And of course there are various reasons for that, including 4 00:00:15,080 --> 00:00:18,640 management. But also, beside the technical 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,640 knowledge, something else was important but I wasn't really 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,600 sure what. And after a few years I noticed 7 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,640 that creativity is an important aspect of problem solving and 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:35,880 software development. Hey everyone, my name is Henry 9 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,000 Surya Virawan and you're listening to the Technically 10 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:43,200 Journal Podcast, the show where I'll be bringing you the 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,320 greatest technical leaders, practitioners and thought 12 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,720 leaders in the industry to discuss about their journey, 13 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,520 ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a 14 00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:58,040 highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your 15 00:00:58,040 --> 00:01:01,280 personal work. So let's dive into our journal. 16 00:01:06,320 --> 00:01:08,440 Hello again to all of you, my listeners. 17 00:01:08,640 --> 00:01:12,040 Welcome to the Tech Lead Journal Podcast, a podcast on technical 18 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:15,760 leadership and excellence. If you haven't, please subscribe 19 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,200 on your favorite podcast app to get notified for new episodes. 20 00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,280 Tech Lead Journal also provides bite sized contents on LinkedIn 21 00:01:23,480 --> 00:01:26,000 X, Instagram, YouTube, and Tiktok. 22 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,280 My guest for today's episode is Walter Gronwald. 23 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,800 He is a software engineer, computer science education 24 00:01:33,800 --> 00:01:37,200 researcher and the author of The Creative Programmer. 25 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,600 In this episode, Walter dives deep into what makes good 26 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,160 engineers truly exceptional and that is creativity. 27 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:49,640 He describes his definition of creativity and shares the seven 28 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,240 key dimensions of a creative programmer, from technical 29 00:01:53,240 --> 00:01:56,680 mastery to embracing constraints and being curious. 30 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,560 Learn how you can take your coding to the next level and 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:03,400 unleash your inner creativity. As a software engineer. 32 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:07,520 I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and learning a lot. 33 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,720 Please share it with your colleagues, friends and 34 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,280 communities and leave a five star rating and review on Apple 35 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,160 Podcasts and Spotify. Let's go to my conversation with 36 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:19,760 Walter after some quick words from our sponsor. 37 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:22,960 Hey, thank you for being part of the Technology Journal 38 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,520 community. This show wouldn't be the same 39 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,000 without your ears, and you are the reason this show exists. 40 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,160 Creating this podcast is a label of love, but the truth is it 41 00:02:33,160 --> 00:02:36,880 also takes time, resources, a whole lot of passion, and an 42 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:41,240 extra bit of caffeine. So if you're loving TLJ and want 43 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:44,600 to see it keep on growing, consider becoming a patron at 44 00:02:44,600 --> 00:02:48,520 Techledjournal dot dev Patron or buying me a coffee at 45 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:53,360 Techledjournal dot Dev Coffee. Every little bit helps field the 46 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,920 research, editing and sleepless nights that go into making the 47 00:02:56,920 --> 00:03:00,200 show the best it can be. Thanks for being the best 48 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:02,400 listeners any podcast could ask for. 49 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,680 Hello guys, Welcome back. To the new episode of the Techno 50 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,120 Journal podcast. Today, I have with me Walter 51 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:12,880 Gronerfeld. He's the author of a book titled 52 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,000 The Creative Programmer. I think the title of the book 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,000 sounds really interesting. Programmer and creativity, 54 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:20,280 right? I think we're going to learn 55 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,920 about creativity as in Programmer from Router and what 56 00:03:23,920 --> 00:03:26,640 aspects are really really needed when we want to become a 57 00:03:26,640 --> 00:03:29,200 creative programmer. I think he even have like a 58 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,680 trademark or even a term for this creative programmer. 59 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,720 So welcome to the show, Walter. Thanks for having me. 60 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:35,480 Welcome. Hi. 61 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:38,680 Walter, I always love in the beginning to ask my guests to 62 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:41,480 maybe first introduce yourself by telling about your highlights 63 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,560 or turning points that we all can learn from. 64 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,520 Sure, sure. So I am a software engineer. 65 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,400 I've been developing software for 11 years in the industry. 66 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,280 I've had plenty of experience and after a few years I've also 67 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:56,800 picked up various roles like coaching and definitely roles. 68 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,560 And we started doing interviews, trying to get new people to join 69 00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:04,360 people from colleges and universities and also all the 70 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,960 more experienced developers. And while doing those interviews 71 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:12,280 I noticed that technicality or technical knowledge is usually 72 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,840 not the kind of thing that's a big problem. 73 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:18,160 Most software engineers know how to keep their stuff up to date, 74 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:23,200 but somehow most projects I've been working on still failed. 75 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:29,920 And of course there are various reasons for that, including 76 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,560 management. I know, pun intended, but also 77 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,840 beside the technical knowledge, something else was important but 78 00:04:37,840 --> 00:04:40,920 I wasn't really sure what. So we'll call these 79 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:42,920 non-technical requirements for now. 80 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,920 I know the term is a bit fake, but it'll get more concrete 81 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:48,840 later on. And well, after 11 years of 82 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:53,040 being in industry, I've had the opportunity to teach half time 83 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,120 at university at my local faculty I'm currently working 84 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:58,480 for. And after like a semester of 85 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,240 teaching, I really like doing that. 86 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:03,440 And I was asking myself, perhaps I can really dig into the 87 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,240 question I have, which is what makes a software engineer a 88 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:10,560 really great software engineer besides programming experience 89 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,400 and besides knowing how to develop in Java or coddling or 90 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,120 whatever. So for the past five years I've 91 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:19,800 been researching non-technical requirements in software 92 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:21,760 engineering, so I've been a researcher. 93 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,480 Now I'm now an academic so I'm what you would might call a 94 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,800 multi Class A software engineer slash academic. 95 00:05:29,280 --> 00:05:32,200 And the combination of both is really interesting. 96 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,920 And after a few years I noticed that creativity is an important 97 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,280 aspect of problem solving and software development. 98 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:41,920 So we've focused and zoomed in on that and the result is the 99 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,880 creative program, I guess, and lots of other academic 100 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:46,960 publications that are a. Little bit less. 101 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,600 Fluent to read, so I guess we won't be doing that today. 102 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:52,840 Thank you for sharing your story. 103 00:05:52,840 --> 00:05:55,080 I always love reading this kind of book, right? 104 00:05:55,160 --> 00:05:59,040 A book that came from Academy or will, you know with well back 105 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:00,920 research, right? I think I have few episodes or 106 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,240 something like this and it's always interesting and 107 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:06,280 fascinating to actually understand maybe the human brain 108 00:06:06,280 --> 00:06:08,480 or the cognitive aspect of programming, right? 109 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:10,760 And I'm sure today we'll learn a lot as well. 110 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,360 So you mentioned about you know even though software programmers 111 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,080 don't have any kind of technical problems generally, but software 112 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,440 projects still fail which you call the non-technical 113 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:22,560 requirements. So maybe if you can tell us a 114 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,360 little bit more, in your view, what are some of the common 115 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,600 challenges why software projects still fail? 116 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:31,880 Yeah, of course. Well, one of the most common 117 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,240 issues of course is team based, human based problems when 118 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,440 working in teams when collaborating, and there's lots 119 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:41,000 of research based on that. This is one of the, let's say, 120 00:06:41,200 --> 00:06:44,720 challenges for me as a researcher myself, because I 121 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:47,760 shouldn't let myself be biased by my prior experience. 122 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,240 So I know the major problems. But as a researcher, I of course 123 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:55,280 can just say OK, it's going to be this, that's anecdotal 124 00:06:55,280 --> 00:06:57,920 evidence. So we took that question and we 125 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:01,400 went to the industry, to multiple companies from multiple 126 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:04,800 countries and we asked them what do you think is the reason for 127 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:07,120 that? Why are some software developers 128 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,280 average and all those great and the result was a huge list of 129 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,320 non tactical requirements. People were saying OK, lots of 130 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,160 communication based skills are really important. 131 00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:22,120 A lot of people were saying you got to really be good at 132 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,480 constraint based thinking. A lot of people were saying no, 133 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,520 no, it's got to be creativity. If you have a problem you need 134 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,200 to think in a creative way to overcome the roadblock to be 135 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:32,960 able to solve that problem better. 136 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:36,920 So that's it's a really huge list of competences people think 137 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,080 is important and then we started ranking them. 138 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,240 So that's another study that we executed. 139 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,520 And within the top three was always, someone always mentioned 140 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,680 creativity always. So that kept us thinking that's 141 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,520 interesting. Then we try to see if there's 142 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,160 already a lot of academic research within computing 143 00:07:55,160 --> 00:07:58,800 education regarding creativity and the answer is no. 144 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:04,360 So there's a lot of research and cognitive psychology related to 145 00:08:04,360 --> 00:08:08,160 creativity, but most of those results are really general. 146 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,960 So it's not really programming, not concrete enough for a 147 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:15,240 software engineer or developer. To make use of for instance, 148 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,240 let's call it that way. So what I try to do is to bridge 149 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,200 the gap between cognitive psychology and the research 150 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:24,960 within the creative field and try to map it to computing 151 00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:28,360 education and see whether or not we can learn from that. 152 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,000 Sounds fascinating, so let's just dive deep into it. 153 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,880 Right. So you mentioned the creative 154 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:37,159 programmer, so maybe tell us your definition first. 155 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:39,400 What do you think is a creative programmer? 156 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,360 I know this is probably a little bit generic as well for some 157 00:08:42,360 --> 00:08:45,520 people, maybe we can clarify it. Yeah, sure. 158 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:48,600 So one of the, let's call it, classic definitions of 159 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,200 creativity is something is creative when it's high quality, 160 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,320 standard when it's applicable to the context, and of course when 161 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:57,280 it's original. So if someone else already. 162 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,920 Made it? Then it's not going to be 163 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,480 creative because, well, it's already there. 164 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,280 But this definition doesn't really take context into 165 00:09:06,280 --> 00:09:08,480 account. It's a classic one from the 166 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:11,400 field of psychology and we thought. 167 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,640 We could do better. So we asked people in industry, 168 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:16,880 what do you think is a creative programmer? 169 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,120 Do you have any insights for us? And we basically summarized 170 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:25,520 everyone's opinions and we noticed lots of recurring teams, 171 00:09:25,680 --> 00:09:28,800 let's call it teams. And the result is actually 172 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,560 creativity is something within within the context of 173 00:09:31,560 --> 00:09:34,200 programming of course is something multi dimensional, 174 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:37,480 which means that there's lots of different aspects involved. 175 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,320 In being a creative programmer. And each of those aspects is one 176 00:09:41,320 --> 00:09:43,400 chapter in the book of the creative programming. 177 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,360 So one of the most obvious domains or aspects of being a 178 00:09:48,360 --> 00:09:50,960 creative programmer is having technical knowledge. 179 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:55,120 In essence it means imagine you're a Java developer and 180 00:09:55,120 --> 00:09:57,160 you've never developed something in Java before. 181 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,200 Then chances are you're not going to be very creative at the 182 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:03,560 reflective API because you simply don't know how to use it. 183 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,640 So there's got to be a minimum, bare minimum level of technical 184 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,000 knowledge to be able to approach problems in a creative way. 185 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,040 So that's an obvious one, So that's technical knowledge. 186 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,880 The next one is communication or collaboration, which is related 187 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:21,200 to working together. It's more interesting, for 188 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,880 instance, to work together in a heterogeneous group than in a 189 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,160 homogeneous group because you have different opinions. 190 00:10:26,520 --> 00:10:30,800 And based on that you can cross pollinate ideas and get a much 191 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,120 better, more interesting idea. But of course you need to be 192 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:37,920 open to those ideas. Most people are not and and end 193 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,400 up fighting, so that's not going to work. 194 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,800 So that's the second one. The third one is an interesting 195 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,560 one, is constraint based thinking. 196 00:10:46,680 --> 00:10:48,840 For instance, you have your typical time and money 197 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,240 constraints. Something has to be done within 198 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:53,040 two weeks or three weeks or whatever. 199 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,280 But within programming, of course, you also have hardware 200 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,000 constraints. This stuff has to work on an 201 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:01,600 older CPU because it's still deployed somewhere. 202 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,520 Or the banking industry says it's got to work in Pascal or in 203 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,480 VB dot VB. Six older, older software 204 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,240 technologies that you have to work with. 205 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:11,560 Of course you want to use more in software development 206 00:11:11,560 --> 00:11:13,000 techniques, but it's an old tool. 207 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,840 How do you do that? You also have to be creative to 208 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:18,280 apply those new techniques to old technology. 209 00:11:18,560 --> 00:11:22,480 So that's the third one. Then we have critical thinking 210 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,480 and a creative state of mind. So what does that mean? 211 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,080 Creative program is a critical thinker. 212 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:32,520 That means you have different IDs, but you still need to 213 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:36,160 critically evaluate each of these IDs to see whether or not 214 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:38,200 they're applicable to what you're doing right now. 215 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,520 For instance, which is really relevant today. 216 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:43,840 And if you ask ChatGPT for a question it usually comes up 217 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:46,200 with an answer that more or less works. 218 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:49,720 Or GitHub Copilot. Most of my students, I'm I'm 219 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaking of course about students right now but most 220 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,480 junior or some senior colleagues also do this is they just copy 221 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,080 paste the result because it's working and then move on. 222 00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:02,080 Sometimes that's good, but sometimes that's not. 223 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,120 You first have to think about, wait, what am I doing? 224 00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:08,880 Perhaps these tools gave an answer that connects to 225 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:12,280 something else in your brain that, if you think about it, 226 00:12:12,680 --> 00:12:15,800 makes an even better option. But you can't just skip that 227 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,520 step. And then you have a creative 228 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:21,120 state of mind, which is like the classic aha moments when you're 229 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:24,720 showering and you're not really thinking about a big problem you 230 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:29,200 have a lot of difficulty with. Suddenly the ideas occur to you 231 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:33,720 in a flash of insight, but before that flash, a lot of work 232 00:12:33,720 --> 00:12:36,440 has been done already. So most people think that it's 233 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,440 some genius insight way that not everyone can achieve. 234 00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,200 But that's simply not the case. You've been chipping away at the 235 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:45,760 problem for hours and hours and hours before you've got that 236 00:12:45,760 --> 00:12:49,040 insight, and there are a few practicalities that are 237 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,960 explained in the book that can help you get more of those. 238 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,440 And then the 6th is curiosity getting out of your comfort 239 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:57,920 zone. If you're not curious and you 240 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,880 don't want to experience new things, you don't want to 241 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,680 explore new technologies, then you're not going to make the 242 00:13:03,680 --> 00:13:06,520 link between the new thing and the old thing, which means that 243 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:09,000 you're not going to have enough ideas to be creative as a 244 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:10,880 developer. It's really simple. 245 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,640 And last but not least, there are a few practical creative 246 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:18,280 techniques that we can employ during programming to become a 247 00:13:18,280 --> 00:13:21,440 more creative program. One of those, of course, is a 248 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,880 technique everyone uses and knows zooming out. 249 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,480 If you're really focused on a few methods you're writing and 250 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:31,240 you don't know how to implement something, then perhaps it's a 251 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:34,840 good idea to just zoom out for a few minutes and see what am I 252 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:36,520 doing? Is this relevant? 253 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:39,400 And some people do that too often. 254 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,920 Some people don't do that at all. 255 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:44,080 We have a few interesting techniques derived from, for 256 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,280 instance, writers or artists that we can mop to the world of 257 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,960 software genieing to help become a more creative program. 258 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:54,120 So that's in essence what it's all about. 259 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,120 I know it's a lot. Perhaps we can pick out a few 260 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:00,920 and discuss these to help the listener make sense of all this. 261 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:04,240 Thank you for the high level overview of the seven different 262 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,600 themes to become a creative programmer. 263 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,320 So one thing before we go into probably diving each of the 264 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,200 themes when we have the time, but one thing that I also want 265 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,280 to call out in your book you mentioned something is creative 266 00:14:16,280 --> 00:14:19,640 when the social peers actually approve it. 267 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:22,640 When I read that, I think it's also kind of like insightful, 268 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,280 right, Because it doesn't mean we always have to come up with 269 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,120 something unique, I mean like original novel and things like 270 00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:29,680 that. But something is creative is 271 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:32,600 when our peers actually say, hey, that is a creative way of 272 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,920 doing things. Maybe this social verdict part 273 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:36,840 you can touch on a little bit. Yeah, sure. 274 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:40,760 Creativity is a systemic, which means it's linked to all things, 275 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:42,680 like the seven domains I just talked about. 276 00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:46,880 Creativity is not something like for instance, I wrote a simple 277 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,400 program in Java and I'm not creative because someone else 278 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,800 has already written Hello World. Of course, millions of people 279 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,520 have already done that, so I'm probably not going to be very 280 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,640 creative at doing that. But that's not really the case 281 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:02,920 because if it was the first time for me and I've had a lot of 282 00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:06,480 difficulties coming up with that simple solution, perhaps it's 283 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,880 for me personally, it can be creative. 284 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,760 So creativity, when you think about trying to define the 285 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:15,360 concept, it's really difficult because you have individual 286 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:17,800 levels of creativity, you have team based levels of creativity, 287 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:20,600 you have corporate based like company based levels of 288 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:22,720 creativity. And on the other hand you have 289 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,800 the context that's involved. Psychologists are moving from 290 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:30,040 the classic definition that I mentioned earlier and are 291 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,960 adopting a more systemic approach, which means that 292 00:15:32,960 --> 00:15:36,120 something is creative when someone else says it is, and 293 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:39,640 that that person who says it is is the experts. 294 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:42,520 For instance, if you're in a gallery and if you're looking at 295 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,280 a painting, and if you don't know a lot about paintings like 296 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,440 I do, but I still like looking at them, sometimes I wonder, 297 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:54,400 should I be amazed? Should I say wow, Because with 298 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:56,200 modern art, you you don't really know. 299 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:59,800 But if someone explains lots of things about the painting in the 300 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,880 background and you see that they think it's really creative, then 301 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:05,520 you know the long and you're you're like, OK, yeah, yeah, and 302 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:07,360 this is going this has got to be creative. 303 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:11,600 And that same principle also applies to the world of software 304 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,520 engineering. But we shouldn't ignore the 305 00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,200 context, of course. Context is always relevant. 306 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:18,760 Right. Another thing that I just want 307 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,840 you to also explain, right, people as they go senior in the 308 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,200 industry, maybe they learn a lot of programming languages, maybe 309 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:27,720 they have done a lot of projects, maybe they went into 310 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,520 different companies, right. That doesn't necessarily mean 311 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:32,560 that they are more creative than the junior. 312 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,200 So this is also another important aspects that maybe we 313 00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:37,480 can learn as well. Yeah, indeed. 314 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,960 That's the difference between having 10 years of experience 315 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:44,360 doing exactly the same thing. Which means actually you only 316 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,080 have one year of experience because you just did the same 317 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:50,280 thing over and over again. And someone else who did 10 318 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,000 years of different things trying out different things, Failing a 319 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:55,800 lot. Of course, because being a 320 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:59,120 creative programmer inherently also means you're going to fail 321 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:01,920 multiple times, but that doesn't mean that you're not learning 322 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:03,640 anything. I think that's a really 323 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:05,520 important take away. If you want to be a creative 324 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:08,880 programmer, you have to experiment like one of the 325 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:11,200 concepts is. Of course, also being curious, 326 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:13,640 so that's indeed an important aspect of it. 327 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,000 Right. So let's go into the themes, 328 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,319 right. So maybe we start from technical 329 00:17:19,319 --> 00:17:21,800 knowledge also. I just want to also give to 330 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,920 listeners, right, how Walter explained these theme in the 331 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,520 book, right? You have a mix of games. 332 00:17:27,560 --> 00:17:30,880 You also have a mix of philosophy or ancient history. 333 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:33,120 I think that's always interesting for those of you who 334 00:17:33,120 --> 00:17:35,880 love these kind of topics, right, because you can easily 335 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,120 see what kind of problem that Walter is explaining for each of 336 00:17:39,120 --> 00:17:40,560 the theme. So let's start with the 337 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:42,840 technical knowledge, right. I think you mentioned that of 338 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:46,680 course if you wanna be creative in Java kind of a software you 339 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,840 need to know Java. But maybe I want to touch on not 340 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,000 on that aspect because that is kind of like given. 341 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,360 Most people should sure should by now understand about that I 342 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,240 hope so. I want to start maybe from 343 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,560 getting inputs right, because in your book for technical 344 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:05,200 knowledge you advise us to actually get more inputs, which 345 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:08,320 means like learning more things you know, reading more stuffs or 346 00:18:08,320 --> 00:18:10,440 maybe watching more tutorials or videos. 347 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:12,640 So tell us more about the importance of this getting 348 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:13,360 input. Yeah. 349 00:18:13,360 --> 00:18:16,240 Or for instance, listening to the Tech Lead Journal podcast. 350 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,240 Well, that's really interesting because during one of our 351 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,400 interviews, our participants said something like creativity 352 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:27,120 is the blue of different inputs. And that kept me thinking for a 353 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:29,160 while. I was thinking like, OK, that's 354 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,120 a really good way to summarize a part of creativity, Of course, 355 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:35,080 because there are multiple parts involved. 356 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,880 If you're only going to get input from one source or a few 357 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:43,960 sources and you stick to those, then chances are that cross 358 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:48,160 pollination of ideas is going to occur a lot less than if you 359 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,240 have multiple ways to learn new different things. 360 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,160 So it's really important to be open not only to the world of 361 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,240 programming, but also read a few pieces on psychology, on 362 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,600 philosophy. That's one of the things that I 363 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,800 try to do with the book itself is not approach it simply from 364 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,120 the mind of a programmer, but also, like you mentioned, from 365 00:19:08,120 --> 00:19:10,840 different domains. And then you can see the IDs and 366 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:14,760 the ways that people do stuff in those domains are not really 367 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,240 that different compared to me as a programmer. 368 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:20,560 And that's really interesting. But of course there's also a big 369 00:19:20,560 --> 00:19:24,080 danger of having too much input, unable to process them, being 370 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:26,760 paralyzed with too much stuff going on. 371 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,640 Especially with nowadays the Internet, like social media, 372 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,680 Doom, scrolling, keeping up to date, the conclusion is you got 373 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,120 to have a system. So one of my systems, but not 374 00:19:36,120 --> 00:19:39,120 necessarily the best one or the one you should employ of course, 375 00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:43,000 is like having a created RSS feed reader where you can paste 376 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,360 in stuff that interests you, not having too much, but not having 377 00:19:46,360 --> 00:19:48,600 too little. So if you read those things, 378 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,400 combined with of course also offline books or e-books or 379 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:56,520 other things that you hear even her on the streets passing by 380 00:19:56,520 --> 00:20:01,000 like this is something interesting, then you can start 381 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,320 subconsciously of course, cross pollinate those things. 382 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,240 It's not something you do actively, at least not something 383 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:08,880 I do actively. Right. 384 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:12,320 So I think when you mentioned RSS feeder and trying to 385 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,200 constrain the input, I still have the problem. 386 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,480 I subscribe to too many RSS feeders I guess and also 387 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:20,440 newsletters. So I wonder how much time I have 388 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,560 to actually consume all of them. So when you mentioned about this 389 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:27,200 system, right, I think some people love this topic personal 390 00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:30,200 knowledge management, right? Or maybe other people also call 391 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,200 it second brain and notes taking and things like that. 392 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,960 And you have this loop gather internalized at loop, right. 393 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,480 So which is very, very important when we want to actually use the 394 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:43,960 knowledge, not just hoarding the information in the notes, but 395 00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:46,120 actually use that for something useful, right. 396 00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:48,840 So tell us about this personal knowledge management, I think 397 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,600 because many, many creative programmers actually do this 398 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,120 kind of stuff. Yeah, quite discipline. 399 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,000 Yeah, I noticed indeed a few ex colleagues of me having things 400 00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,000 like personal wikis. They store technical information 401 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:04,120 or how to do a grab or how to do regular expressions in Java or 402 00:21:04,120 --> 00:21:06,960 in Kotlin or whatever. For the next project, when they 403 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,040 have to do it again, they can quickly reach for it and just 404 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,520 apply the knowledge that they already have explored before. 405 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:16,840 So that's an important part. But if you've got to store 406 00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:19,960 stuff, then you have to think, what am I going to do with it in 407 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,320 the near future? So it's not just reading or 408 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,440 consuming and then doing nothing with it. 409 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,440 A creative program of course, wants to be creative, wants to 410 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,760 solve problems creatively, which means you have to do something 411 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,120 with that input. Because like you mentioned, 412 00:21:34,120 --> 00:21:37,160 there's just too much input, there's too many things to do, 413 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,040 and to read, you have to curate it and also add context. 414 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,880 So summarize it in your own way. That's a really, really 415 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:49,160 important part, not just saving URLs or links to articles and 416 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:51,360 then calling it a day. Now you have to summarize it 417 00:21:51,360 --> 00:21:55,160 yourself in your own words. When you're doing that, then 418 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:58,120 during that process you're probably linking it to something 419 00:21:58,120 --> 00:22:00,120 else. If that linking doesn't occur, 420 00:22:00,120 --> 00:22:03,000 then the cross pollination and the new IDs are not going to 421 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,520 come. And of course the ultimate goal 422 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:09,560 of having a personal knowledge management system is having UIDS 423 00:22:09,560 --> 00:22:11,760 capturing the new IDs and doing something with it. 424 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:16,000 Like Nicholas Newman, a really well known German academic, used 425 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,280 the principle called Settle Kasan technique. 426 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,440 It's really popular lately. You can search for it on the 427 00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:23,280 Internet or read about it in the book. 428 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:27,640 One of the reasons why he did the thing that he did is to 429 00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:30,920 publish more. So I think Lumen published like 430 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,720 60 or 70 books in his entire lifetime. 431 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,320 That's not articles, that's books, which is huge. 432 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,040 So that's the output. That's something. 433 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:43,960 Of course, as a programmer you don't want to write books, you 434 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,440 want to write codes, but the same principles apply. 435 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,720 Yeah, I think many programmers like myself, or maybe just let's 436 00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,720 call it technical or knowledge worker, right? 437 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,680 Actually consume a lot of things, right? 438 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:57,560 So we read blogs and these days there are so many resources and 439 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,800 not just in text, but also in audio. 440 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:02,920 Like this podcast and also video on YouTube and maybe even like 441 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,280 short clips, you know, like. YouTube shorts and it's crazy. 442 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:07,760 There's just so, so many information. 443 00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,160 I think the tendency for all of us still is like consume, 444 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,760 consume, consume, but we never actually take action on it. 445 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,000 And in fact, for me, I also learned from, you know, one of 446 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,720 the podcast before I made it, such a framework like it's 447 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,480 called 4 CS. So you you first, you consume, 448 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,920 consume a lot, but you have to create the second seat. 449 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:26,200 Yeah. And then you connect with 450 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,680 people, maybe create some kind of network or maybe groups to 451 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:31,960 actually share the creativity that you have. 452 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,480 And the 4th one is actually to do it consistently. 453 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,440 So I think that is also probably one thing that listeners can 454 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,040 learn from. And you mentioned also 455 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:40,960 creativity begets creativity, right? 456 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,520 So once you create something creative, there might be a 457 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:46,040 chance for you to create something more creative as well. 458 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:48,560 So tell us more about this part, because I think it's also 459 00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:50,680 important to encourage people to start. 460 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,800 Yeah, sure. Well, it's a simple concept. 461 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,800 It just means the process of writing this book has been 462 00:23:56,120 --> 00:23:58,520 exactly that. It's been a process of, let's 463 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,920 call it, fermenting of IDs for years and years, and I didn't 464 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:03,320 really do anything with those IDs. 465 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,080 So I've read a lot of different books, I've collected a lot of 466 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,440 different articles, I've done a lot of studies myself. 467 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,080 And somehow after reading book after book, you start having 468 00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,080 these thoughts. Like I've seen this before. 469 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,200 Perhaps I should link this to something I've done before. 470 00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:20,720 Then if you can hark back to the system that you have, you can 471 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:23,760 quickly look up that information that has been contextualized by 472 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:26,680 your own notes. Then you can link them together. 473 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,360 And after doing that, writing the book itself is actually the 474 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:35,720 easiest part. Well, in theory, let's say 475 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,000 writing the outline of the book is the is the simplest part, 476 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:42,600 because that's just getting those notes out of your system, 477 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,280 collecting them, rearranging them, and then some way or 478 00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,080 another you already have a template of what you want to do, 479 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:51,440 and then it's a matter of filling it in. 480 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,880 And of course I can work based on this book. 481 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,000 I still have open IDs or questions I didn't have before 482 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,400 writing them. Some of the chapters I can write 483 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,080 some more fleshed out examples for, or I've had IDs for future 484 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,000 research based on what I've been writing. 485 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:10,800 And if I wouldn't have written this, then I wouldn't have those 486 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,920 IDs. So it's just a continuation of 487 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,080 what you've been doing before. Right. 488 00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:18,720 So I think the summary is like take notes, you know, like 489 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,400 gather this information, internalize that by doing 490 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,480 summary for yourself, linking ideas. 491 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:25,880 Cross pollinate, I think you mentioned about this word like 492 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,080 so, so many times, right. Cross pollinate, it's really 493 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:29,520 important. Yeah. 494 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:31,960 And then the last one is take action, right. 495 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:34,720 So you can be creative if you don't produce or you know do 496 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,240 something about it, right. So I think that is like a good 497 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,320 summary. So let's move on to the next 498 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:42,200 theme, which is the communication and collaboration. 499 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:44,920 I think for many software engineers this can become a 500 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:48,880 challenge because some are more introverts, some prefer to speak 501 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,400 to the machine other than people. 502 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,800 Some also don't like working in teams, they just wanna go solo. 503 00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:56,720 So tell us more about this importance of collaboration. 504 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,000 Yeah, I think it's really obvious once you start looking 505 00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,000 beyond the boundaries of software engineering. 506 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,320 If you look at really productive or really creative teams in the 507 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,160 past, for instance in arts like the gatherings in cafes in 508 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,520 Paris, the extreme Tuesday sessions in London, you always 509 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,760 see the same pattern emerging, which is a heterogeneous group 510 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,840 of like minded people who want to push a domain forward. 511 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,440 They're fed up with, for instance, the Cameratas in the 512 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:25,400 16th century. They were fed up with the 513 00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:28,000 current level of music and they wanted to create something new. 514 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,120 So there has to be a common interest and there has to be 515 00:26:32,120 --> 00:26:34,520 people from different backgrounds because that's what 516 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,520 makes it interesting. If you have an ID and you share 517 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:40,200 it and someone else looks at it with different eyes from a 518 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,120 different background, they can add value to it and that makes 519 00:26:43,120 --> 00:26:45,720 the ID even better. But of course you need to be 520 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,800 open to to do something like that. 521 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,080 What I also mentioned earlier, and one of the most interesting 522 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,400 parts perhaps of this chapter, is that the ID of the community 523 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,520 smells in the later part of the chapter. 524 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,880 Which means you have this concept called technical depth, 525 00:26:59,880 --> 00:27:03,120 which I guess everyone knows as a programmer, which is code 526 00:27:03,120 --> 00:27:06,440 that's been left alone, that you should have refactored some way 527 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,280 or another. Which is going to cost money, 528 00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520 Which is the result of code smells, different code smells. 529 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,800 And in community based teams, which are of course all teams, 530 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,080 you can have something similar. Instead of technical depth, you 531 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,360 have social depth, a concept called social depth. 532 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,840 And instead of code smells you have community smells. 533 00:27:25,360 --> 00:27:28,160 And why is that so important for a creative programmer? 534 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:33,880 Because those community smells, they actually impede creativity. 535 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:35,840 Not only. At the individual level, 536 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,080 because. If you're unhappy and a team, 537 00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:40,320 you're not going to be that creative. 538 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,920 I've read studies that claim that a happy programmer is a 539 00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,960 creative programmer, which is, well, I guess more or less true, 540 00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,360 but also team based. If there's lots of fights going 541 00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:54,080 on or you know what I'm talking about, then at team based level 542 00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:58,000 it's not going to be that creative. 543 00:27:58,120 --> 00:28:02,200 So I think it's really important to try and identify those 544 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,080 different community smells. For instance, we've all seen the 545 00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,760 lone wolf, which is a typical community smell. 546 00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:12,360 There's one guy in a corner typing away, ignoring everyone 547 00:28:12,360 --> 00:28:15,480 and just pushing get commit A and it's done, completely 548 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,160 ignoring the team based rules. And of course, when that guy 549 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,560 goes to home, the team is angry. And as they we've heard a few 550 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,120 things or has to modify a few things, but that's not really a 551 00:28:26,120 --> 00:28:28,680 great way to form a real community. 552 00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:31,920 It's a theme, but it's not a community and it's not going to 553 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,920 be really creative as a community that way. 554 00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,040 And there are different examples of community smells like that in 555 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,640 the book. That's not a concept that I 556 00:28:38,640 --> 00:28:41,640 invented, but something that I encountered by the work of 557 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,840 Damien Tamburi, a professor in the Netherlands who has been 558 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,280 working on empirical software engineering and also behavioral 559 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,920 software engineering. The moment that I read this part 560 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,000 right, the community smells and also the social that right? 561 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,560 I think it's really really insightful. 562 00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:59,720 Many people these days call out software engineering as a social 563 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:02,680 technical problem, right? It's not only technical but 564 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:05,160 there are social aspects that you also need to take care of. 565 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:06,560 Just like what you mentioned right? 566 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,200 There are some anti patterns in terms of behavior, so maybe 567 00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,360 teamwork, communications, right? You can also see if the team 568 00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,360 doesn't talk to each other. I think that's also another 569 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:17,880 community smells right? And I think the most important 570 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,520 thing that you mentioned about this part is that you cannot be 571 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,680 creative if you're doing it in isolation, right? 572 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,440 Like you're doing it yourself. So tell us, how can a team 573 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,840 actually do something more together such that we can create 574 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:32,560 more creative output? Maybe there are some things that 575 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,880 you can advise us here. Well, for teams, I think it's 576 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,560 obvious that everyone should be open to the IDs of others, 577 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,400 should be respectful to one another, even if you do not 578 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,320 agree with the IDs or the implementation that someone else 579 00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:48,560 is trying to cram in. But one of the most important 580 00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,960 things perhaps for engineering managers to take away is to try 581 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,920 to create a creative culture within the company. 582 00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:58,920 Which means that sharing knowledge is also as important 583 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,520 as getting this stuff done. Because if you don't share 584 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,520 knowledge, not even within the team, but across different 585 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,960 teams. And I'm not just talking about 586 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:10,160 sharing the corporate knowledge or the functional knowledge of 587 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,120 the software itself, but also more silly things like the 588 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,240 personal alliance management. For instance, if someone set up 589 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:20,440 a wiki and they're having a blast, why not share that so 590 00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,560 someone else can perhaps also pick up that? 591 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,560 If you somehow manage to combine different IDs or publish 592 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,000 something, why not share that? It shouldn't always be work 593 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,000 related, as I've seen in the past that that's a bit frowned 594 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:34,800 upon. Most of the efforts for sharing 595 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,680 knowledge are still safely within the context of the 596 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,320 corporate software itself, and it shouldn't be. 597 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:43,640 Thanks for some of the tips. I think some techniques like, 598 00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,480 you know, pair programming, more programming is also quite 599 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:48,840 useful, right? For sure cross pollinate ideas, 600 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,040 learning maybe from seniors and juniors, right? 601 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:52,960 And I think it's always a two way thing. 602 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,240 It's not just one way, right? I think that's also another key 603 00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,080 thing. Let's move on to the third team, 604 00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,640 which is constraints. I think this is for some people 605 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,840 who know they they can see it. But for most people, who doesn't 606 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:05,960 understand that constraints actually can also create more 607 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:07,960 creativity. So tell us more about this 608 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:11,280 concept that constraints can actually make us more creative. 609 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,880 Right, so most programmers usually get angry when they're 610 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,560 giving constraints. Let's just be honest, if someone 611 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:21,920 says it's got to be done by the end of the week, then you're 612 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:24,960 starting to sweat and you don't really want to continue at all. 613 00:31:25,960 --> 00:31:28,920 So there are different ways of applying constraints. 614 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,120 Most of the constraints are just given to us right? 615 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:33,200 Like budget constraints, time constraints, hardware 616 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,600 constraints, software constraints, If you end up in a 617 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:39,280 team who's working in Go, then you got to write software and 618 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,120 go. Unless you manage to convince 619 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:43,520 someone to write a microservice in another language. 620 00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,600 But that's just a constraint that's inherent to the program 621 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,440 itself. But on the other hand, we have 622 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,240 something called self-imposed constraints and that's perhaps 623 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,840 the most interesting one. It can be viewed as follows. 624 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,880 Instead of having given constraints, you give yourself 625 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,320 additional constraints. For instance, if you're stuck on 626 00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,040 a method, or on a clause, or on a particular programming 627 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,120 problem, you can say to your pair, why not try to write this 628 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:14,360 in five lines or less? Or why not try to not use any 629 00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:17,400 loops, but try to use Sweet question instead, or the other 630 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,040 way around? It forces us to view the problem 631 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:23,840 from a different angle, and it forces us to rethink what we're 632 00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:27,240 actually doing. So these constraints that you 633 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,560 impose yourself are really powerful. 634 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,880 And in the beginning you have to play around and try to see, am I 635 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,040 pushing my luck? Am I doing it wrong? 636 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:38,000 Am I adding too much constraints? 637 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:39,640 Because that's also going to be a problem. 638 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,640 There's something called a sweet spot of constraints, which means 639 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:45,360 if you have too little constraints, for instance barely 640 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,360 one or two, then the project is never going to be done. 641 00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:50,800 If there's no deadline and there's no money, you have an 642 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:52,960 endless amount of money. Imagine. 643 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:59,120 Then you're probably not really going to bother having anything 644 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,040 done today or tomorrow, or the week. 645 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,080 The week after that, you're just going to take a few years of 646 00:33:05,080 --> 00:33:06,960 vacation before getting. Started. 647 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,120 But then on the other hand, if someone says it's got to be done 648 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:14,480 by tomorrow and you only have like a few €100 of budget and 649 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,960 then that's next to impossible. So if you have two little 650 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,840 constraints, you can add a few yourself. 651 00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:22,160 If you have too many constraints, you can try to 652 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,440 imagine that you have less constraints. 653 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:28,280 For instance, take some away. But of course sometimes that's 654 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:30,600 just impossible, so you have to imagine that. 655 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,520 And by imagining that, you can also approach a problem in a 656 00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:35,680 different way. So that's a really interesting 657 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,960 one. A silly 1A silly example that we 658 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,040 did in the past was for instance, let's try to fix this 659 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,280 without consulting the Internet, without trying to look up 660 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,040 anything. Some of the solutions then are 661 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:48,880 probably not going to be very optimal. 662 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,560 But then of course you look it up afterwards and you compare 663 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,360 and you've learned something. The goal is always to learn 664 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,120 something. Yeah, I wish that we all can 665 00:33:57,120 --> 00:33:59,760 have this unlimited money, unlimited time and. 666 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,040 Then we just. Cruise along, yeah. 667 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,520 And don't create anything, but I think what you mentioned, right, 668 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:08,560 Time and money are like the common, most common things that 669 00:34:08,679 --> 00:34:11,199 become a constraint, right, Because we work in software 670 00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,840 projects or maybe you know, like a competition with the industry. 671 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:18,040 So we have to produce something fast and also cheap, right? 672 00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:20,159 And I think the other thing is scope, right? 673 00:34:20,159 --> 00:34:23,560 So sometimes we can tweak the kind of features that we have to 674 00:34:23,560 --> 00:34:27,000 build so that we can be more creative, focused, kind of 675 00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,120 effort to solve the problem. And for me as well doing this 676 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,880 podcast, the time based constraint really works for me 677 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,199 because every week I have to produce something and that kind 678 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:38,320 of creates a lot more output for me. 679 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,320 Yeah, that's that's true. I do something similar actually 680 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:45,679 for my.blog@brainbaking.com. A bit of people doing there. 681 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,239 I say to myself, I want to have something online every four or 682 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:51,679 five days and it doesn't really matter what. 683 00:34:51,679 --> 00:34:55,040 And most of the IDs, I just look for my personal knowledge 684 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,800 management system. So I take notes whatever I see 685 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,720 or whatever I'm reading. And if I wouldn't have said that 686 00:35:00,720 --> 00:35:04,000 myself, there would be a lot less interesting articles, I 687 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:04,800 think. Yeah. 688 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:07,520 Yeah. And sometimes it's not about the 689 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,120 high quality of the content, right. 690 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,560 It's the act of just producing that I think can improve the 691 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,120 quality over the time. And yeah, just the mezzo as 692 00:35:16,120 --> 00:35:18,080 well. So Walter here is a professional 693 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,120 Baker as well. So if you're interested in 694 00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:23,040 learning how to bake, I think you can learn from Walter's 695 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,040 blog. So the most important thing 696 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:28,280 about this constraint scheme for me is that don't forget there is 697 00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,960 another constraint, the self-imposed constraint, apart 698 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:33,520 from the inherent constraint of the problem that you're working. 699 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:36,400 So let's move on to the next one, which is critical thinking, 700 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:38,320 right? So I think many people 701 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,800 understand, yeah, we have to be critical, but what does it mean 702 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,000 to be critical? Well, you have different phases 703 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:48,200 of the typical creative, inventive way of thinking, and 704 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,720 most of the time I think everyone is familiar with. 705 00:35:50,720 --> 00:35:52,120 For instance, brainstorming, Right? 706 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:54,320 When you're trying to brainstorm, you're trying to 707 00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:58,800 ideate to generate different IDs of approaching a problem in a 708 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:00,960 different way. There are for example, 10 709 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:05,840 different these and sometimes I've seen just people pick the 710 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,800 ID that they have been implemented before because it's 711 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,640 the easiest one, because they know it, because they've used 712 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,280 the software or the technology before because of the 713 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,920 constraints. If money or budget is tight, you 714 00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,200 of course do something that you've been doing before because 715 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:22,000 then forecast is faster. That's really simple, but 716 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:25,320 perhaps it's not really. The best way of picking the 717 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,720 idea? Or perhaps. 718 00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,680 If you chose the second ID, did you evaluate the order aids 719 00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,080 After that? Did you talk about those? 720 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,560 Sometimes things like that gets easily forgotten. 721 00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:40,400 Yeah, so I think another thing that you can do in the team that 722 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,080 I learned right, you can do these things called spike, right 723 00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,400 in your Sprint you allocate time to do spikes, you know learning 724 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,800 a new technologies, doing PO, CS and you know sharing their 725 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,600 findings right in a time box manner. 726 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,520 The key is the time box manner. So I think critical thinking, 727 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,320 some people also in the design thinking world you have this, 728 00:36:57,640 --> 00:37:00,240 you know, diverging thoughts and then converging thoughts. 729 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,760 I think that's also probably one of the technique that is 730 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:04,760 commonly used to be more critical, right. 731 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,160 And I think another important part is that sometimes you can 732 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,640 do it in a team and sometimes you can do it individually, 733 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:12,480 right. So maybe there are some 734 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,000 techniques that you also have learned in the research that you 735 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,360 did. How can we, you know, improve 736 00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,840 our critical thinking mindset? That's a really interesting one. 737 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:22,600 It's kind of difficult to answer. 738 00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,040 I think the obvious answer is going to be that you have to try 739 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,360 to be more critical each and every day and something 740 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,320 difficult you encounter. Try to stand still for a moment 741 00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,160 and think, what am I doing right now? 742 00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,320 Should I be approaching this problem at all? 743 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:40,320 Sometimes it's not problem solving or using creativity to 744 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,880 overcome the problem, but sometimes it's problem defining. 745 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,400 Is this problem the problem I'm trying to solve? 746 00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:49,640 Sometimes the answer is no, and not a lot of software developers 747 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,480 ask these questions. Of course, again under pressure, 748 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:55,440 I completely understand you're not really going to do that at 749 00:37:55,520 --> 00:37:57,680 all. But it's not only on a low 750 00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,120 level, like when you're programming different functions, 751 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:03,160 but also on a high level when you're approaching a client or 752 00:38:03,160 --> 00:38:05,440 when you're discussing something with a functional analyst. 753 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,480 You always have to take these things into account. 754 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:11,840 And it's a bit like putting on different hats, like the 755 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,480 critical thinking hats. And then you have to ideate hats 756 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,040 coming up with different IDs. You can't do both at once, 757 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,080 because if you try to do that, then you would have a lot less 758 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,680 IDs because you're shooting down the IDs as soon as they come 759 00:38:26,680 --> 00:38:28,960 into your mind because you're saying no, that's not going to 760 00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,120 be possible. No, this is costing too much. 761 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,760 First you have to ID 8 and not really evaluate whatever ID 762 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,080 comes to mind, and then you critically evaluate the IDs. 763 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:44,080 And because of that, brainstorming the typical way 764 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,840 that we do is not really the best way to approach it. 765 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,320 It's more interesting to brainstorm individually and to 766 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,760 write something down. And then in. 767 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,080 Group, discuss and critically evaluate each ID and not simply 768 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,800 shoot down those. Because once someone starts 769 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,640 blurting out IDs like, oh, I have this ID for that, someone 770 00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:05,960 else is bound to say, Nah, not going to happen. 771 00:39:06,240 --> 00:39:09,920 We don't have time, we don't have money, and of course that 772 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,480 person is not going to come up with another ID because they 773 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,800 just been shut down. So you're shutting down the 774 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,200 communication doing that. So that's not really the best 775 00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:20,080 way to approach things. Yeah, so you mentioned this 776 00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:21,600 thing, right? I have another episode where 777 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,560 they call this anchoring, right? So this is probably a community 778 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:26,880 smell that people have to be aware of, right? 779 00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,800 So in your group setup, right? In your brainstorming, maybe try 780 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,320 to do individual sticky notes writing first, right? 781 00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,320 And let people put forth their ideas rather than, you know, 782 00:39:35,320 --> 00:39:38,800 anchoring it to some seniors or maybe some people senior in the 783 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:40,400 management level, right? Exactly. 784 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,560 So thanks for this insights. So maybe let's skip to the 785 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:45,600 creative state of mind theme now. 786 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:47,720 So I think this is also important because your 787 00:39:47,720 --> 00:39:51,560 environment, maybe your physical right also kind of like have an 788 00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,240 effect to your creativity. So tell us more about this 789 00:39:54,240 --> 00:39:58,000 creative state of mind. Well, that's when my previous 790 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:00,560 experience and my current experience as a researcher 791 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,760 really comes to mind. For instance, as a software 792 00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,040 developer. Before COVID, of course. 793 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,760 I've been working in many open landscapes, which are typical 794 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:12,760 really load environments where everyone is just doing different 795 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:14,760 things. Multiple teams are put together 796 00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:18,320 in one giant open space because managers think, oh that's point 797 00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,720 to cross pollinate IDs. That's a really good way to 798 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,560 generate more more value or more IDs. 799 00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,720 And the opposite is true, because nobody can concentrate 800 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,400 and everyone is really shouting to each other and the volume 801 00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,200 keeps getting up and up and up. So that's not really the best 802 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:33,640 way to approach things creatively. 803 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:36,360 So open landscape, they just don't work. 804 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,360 And that has been proven in academic and academia before. 805 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,960 There are multiple papers on this on the topic that just 806 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,600 doesn't work. But on the other hand, right now 807 00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,680 I'm sitting in a small concrete room. 808 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,240 In academia you have lots of small rooms where researchers 809 00:40:50,240 --> 00:40:54,040 work usually alone working at chipping away at that paper or 810 00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:56,440 at their research. And that's of course also not 811 00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,040 really the best way to approach things, because if you 812 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:02,560 individualize the work itself without really talking to each 813 00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,960 other, then again the cross pollination I'm going to keep on 814 00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,640 repeating that is not going to happen either. 815 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:15,080 So you have to somehow try to merge or marry those two things. 816 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:18,480 Like if teams are working, leave them alone, put them in separate 817 00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:23,320 rooms, but try to find a way for people to bump into each other, 818 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,360 right? Ideally people from different 819 00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,160 fields even. So for instance, the MIT 820 00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:31,320 buildings have been redesigned to do exactly that, where the 821 00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,760 physicist can bump into a computer scientist or 822 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,800 psychologist and then we could talk about the research they are 823 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,360 doing. And perhaps someone is like, OK, 824 00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:42,240 that's an interesting thing that I can incorporate into my 825 00:41:42,240 --> 00:41:44,280 research. And then when they have to do 826 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,400 the actual work themselves, the focus work instead of the 827 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,920 diffuse work. Then they can go to a quiet room 828 00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,600 with a few other people, or by themselves to do the work itself 829 00:41:54,600 --> 00:41:56,920 without getting interruptions. Yeah. 830 00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:59,360 Thanks for mentioning about this open space layout. 831 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,320 I don't know how it all started, right? 832 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:03,640 I think maybe 10 years ago or something like that. 833 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,960 All major companies start to have this Openoffice layout, 834 00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,440 right? And I think what you spoke is 835 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,200 really true, right? Instead of getting more 836 00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,680 creative, I think there are a lot of distractions as well 837 00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:18,200 which I wanna also bring to another topic instead of just 838 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,160 the physical aspects, we also live in an electronic aspect, 839 00:42:22,240 --> 00:42:25,000 things like instant messaging, emails and all the other 840 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:27,560 interruptions that we have. So tell us more about the 841 00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,760 aspects of this virtual interruptions that can also 842 00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:32,200 affect our creative state of mind. 843 00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:35,920 Yeah, When you're working, you have this creative state of mind 844 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,000 or this flow of different thoughts that you're trying to 845 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:43,200 somehow systemize or summarize into something that you're doing 846 00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,400 or trying to creatively overcome a problem. 847 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,680 And then someone interrupts you like someone else comes down 848 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,720 next to your desk and asks a question. 849 00:42:50,720 --> 00:42:54,000 Or you somehow feel the urge to grab your phone and start 850 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:56,640 scrolling through Twitter. Or no, I should say X right now. 851 00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,560 Things change so quickly that I'm unable to keep up. 852 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,280 Interruptions are bound to occur, so you just can't avoid 853 00:43:05,280 --> 00:43:07,200 them. You can't of course, a few 854 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:12,440 things you can do yourself, like deleting your X account and 855 00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,920 trying to keep that cell phone away from the desk when you are 856 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,440 actually doing the work itself. And also different focus tools 857 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,760 like Pomodoro techniques or software that helps you reduce 858 00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:25,760 your screen time or disable your Internet, things like that. 859 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,680 These are simple things that sometimes can work. 860 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,480 But still, someone else might ask a question, come by asking a 861 00:43:32,480 --> 00:43:34,520 question. And then there's the principle 862 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:38,160 of trying to store your current state of mind, the thoughts you 863 00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,800 are having, quickly write them down some way, either digitally 864 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,440 or just with pen on paper, so that when the person leaves and 865 00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:48,520 the answer has been given, you can pick up where you're left. 866 00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,240 And that's an important one that I see a lot of people having 867 00:43:52,240 --> 00:43:55,760 trouble with because after they're gone, they're like, oh 868 00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:59,680 damn, what was I doing again? You have to take a deliberate 869 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:03,000 effort to get back in that flow states, and it's been proven to 870 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,560 take up to 30 minutes or even more. 871 00:44:06,120 --> 00:44:09,880 So before you all talk to your mailbox, try to remember that 872 00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:13,440 you're going to need 30 minutes again after that to get back 873 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:15,320 into the groove of the work you've been doing. 874 00:44:15,720 --> 00:44:18,680 So that's not really what I'd call being very productive. 875 00:44:20,480 --> 00:44:23,440 Yeah, if people love this topic, I think Cal Newport also have 876 00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,480 the exactly right that can teach you some insights how, yeah, how 877 00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,080 you can actually get in this creative mind without being 878 00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:32,880 interrupted by instant messaging and emails, right. 879 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,760 I think these two are probably the killers of productivity most 880 00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:38,200 of the time. And also another thing important 881 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:42,120 is you mentioned we have to have well enough rest or sleep. 882 00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:44,760 In short, right? I think a lot of programmers 883 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,360 including myself, I'm like a night owl, I like to work at 884 00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,880 night and you know like maybe sleep less. 885 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,920 So tell us, like from your research, what's this importance 886 00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,560 of sleep or well rested? Yeah, it's related to something 887 00:44:57,560 --> 00:45:00,600 I said earlier, that happy programmers are usually more 888 00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,160 creative programmers. And that also includes that well 889 00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:06,560 slept programmers are going to be more productive and more 890 00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:10,760 happy in general, and also do more work more willingly and be 891 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,640 more creative in general. So there's this psychological 892 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,520 well-being state that you also have to take it into account 893 00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:19,160 when being a creative program. I know it's really easy for me 894 00:45:19,160 --> 00:45:21,760 to say something like that. A lot of people have problems 895 00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:24,560 with that. It's usually not the employee 896 00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,640 but the employer's fault. So there's still a lot of work 897 00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,720 that needs to be done. I think it also is related to 898 00:45:30,720 --> 00:45:34,560 trying to create a corporate culture where creativity is 899 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:36,680 allowed. And that doesn't really mean 900 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,800 creativity limited to the software that you're working 901 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:41,720 with. But for instance, staring out of 902 00:45:41,720 --> 00:45:45,520 the window a few minutes to let your mind wander, to think about 903 00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:49,120 a few things subconsciously that you've been doing over the past 904 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,880 few hours, and then just going back to work and coming up with 905 00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:54,360 a new ID or fresh head or something like that. 906 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,160 So something like that is sometimes frowned upon, 907 00:45:57,240 --> 00:46:00,040 especially in my experience, my previous experience in the 908 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,040 industry. For instance, there's a funny 909 00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:07,320 experience I've had as we worked really hard before noon trying 910 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:10,680 to put out a fire in production, trying to fix hot fix a bug. 911 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,480 And it took like 2:30 or something like that. 912 00:46:13,480 --> 00:46:16,360 So everyone was already finished eating and got back to work. 913 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,680 And when it was finally done, then we also decided to take a 914 00:46:19,720 --> 00:46:23,480 little break and we like to play a few rounds of cards when we 915 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:26,040 are having a short break. And of course, just at that 916 00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:31,760 moment the boss came along and saw us playing cards at 2:30 in 917 00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:34,120 the afternoon and he was like, what the hell are you doing? 918 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:36,960 But he didn't see us spitting out the fire, of course. 919 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:41,400 So our brain can't work 8 hours continuously. 920 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:45,880 You have to take some time off, and that doesn't mean a few days 921 00:46:45,880 --> 00:46:49,200 off, but can also mean a few moments, a few minutes, a few 922 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:50,960 half hours or something like that, yeah. 923 00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,680 Yeah, and speaking about cross pollinating ideas, right? 924 00:46:54,680 --> 00:46:57,800 I think when you dream, I think it's also the most creative 925 00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,040 state of mind, especially if you touch on this R.E.M. 926 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:01,480 Sleep, right. I think I read this book by 927 00:47:01,480 --> 00:47:03,800 Matthew Walker. I think that's also another way 928 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:06,600 of you cross pollinating ideas in your sleep, right? 929 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,480 I think maybe programmers, if you haven't got enough sleep, 930 00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:13,920 please try to sleep more and let's go to the next theme which 931 00:47:13,920 --> 00:47:15,920 is curiosity. One thing that I picked in this 932 00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,360 curiosity part, right you mentioned curiosity and 933 00:47:18,360 --> 00:47:21,880 perseverance are the two most defining personality traits for 934 00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,320 creativity. So be curious and persevere. 935 00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,000 So tell us more about the importance of those two. 936 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,880 Well, like I mentioned before, if you're not curious, you're 937 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:33,960 not going to pick up on new IDs because they just simply don't 938 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,800 really interest you. And one of the really strange 939 00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:40,800 things I've seen my ex colleague say is like, oh but I'm a net 940 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,200 developer, I'm never going to do any Java. 941 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:46,800 And I was like what? The Clr is exactly the same as 942 00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:49,480 the GVM. They're constantly stealing IDs 943 00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,200 from each other. The world in Oracle and the 944 00:47:51,200 --> 00:47:56,000 world in Microsoft Java and NET are or C# are basically the same 945 00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,880 language used for the same corporate purpose. 946 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,760 So why would you limit yourself to only learning something like 947 00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:04,680 that? And you can apply the same 948 00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:06,360 principle. If you're a Java developer, why 949 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,200 not just take a look at some conferences which are focused on 950 00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:11,480 NET? Perhaps they have talks about 951 00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:15,120 concurrency that you wouldn't really think about when you're 952 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:18,120 doing your Java stuff. If you're not curious, you're 953 00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,080 simply not going to check them out, and then you're missing out 954 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,240 on ideas. Of course, I completely 955 00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:25,640 understand that you have to devise your time somewhere and 956 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,360 you can't really take a look at everything or learn everything. 957 00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:30,560 So again, you got to choose your battles. 958 00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,560 That's what I would say. Yeah. 959 00:48:32,560 --> 00:48:34,680 And getting out of comfort zone, which you mentioned in the 960 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:37,560 beginning as well, right. Sometimes, I mean, I don't know 961 00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,280 like as we grow senior, sometimes we kind of like want 962 00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:43,240 to specialize a bit and you know, specialize in the kind of 963 00:48:43,240 --> 00:48:46,560 problems that we work with, the kind of technology that we work 964 00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:48,200 with. I think getting out of comfort 965 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,960 zones from time to time learning new technologies is always 966 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,160 useful. So I won't cover the last part. 967 00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,040 Creative techniques for people who are interested in this 968 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,040 conversation, maybe they can go and read the book. 969 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,960 I think it's really, really insightful and interesting book 970 00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:02,760 for people who love this kind of topics. 971 00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,880 So I'll refer you to reading that book. 972 00:49:05,240 --> 00:49:08,200 Walter, thank you so much for explaining most of the themes 973 00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,000 right. And I have one last question for 974 00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:12,360 you, which is called the three technical leadership wisdom. 975 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,160 This is something that I always love to ask my guests to share 976 00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:17,600 their wisdom so that we all can learn from you. 977 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,240 Are there any wisdom that you want to share for us today? 978 00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:24,440 I think the most important part is that we have seen students 979 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:28,400 and also software engineers in the industry say things like I 980 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:32,680 am very creative, or say things like I am not very creative, but 981 00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,840 they're not aware that creativity is a skill that can 982 00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:37,200 be learned. It's like a muscle. 983 00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:39,760 So it's just the same like learning to program. 984 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,400 You can become more creative. Your creative potential can be 985 00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,040 increased by trying to look into these techniques and try trying 986 00:49:47,040 --> 00:49:49,200 out a few different things like that. 987 00:49:49,600 --> 00:49:52,480 It's not just a simple matter of someone is more creative than 988 00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:54,880 the other one, it's something that can be learned. 989 00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,800 I think that's a really powerful and important message that we 990 00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:00,200 can try to pass along to the listeners. 991 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:03,640 The second one, perhaps is convince your manager to also 992 00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,840 read the book, because I know the subject of the book is 993 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:11,680 called The Creative Program, but it's less technical than you 994 00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,680 might be inclined to think at first sight, and it's that 995 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,800 culture of being more creative is more important than you 996 00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,040 think. If some companies would be open 997 00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:25,720 to a few of those concepts and would encourage other people to 998 00:50:25,720 --> 00:50:28,560 be a little bit more creative, would employ more coaches to 999 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,280 help them reach for those tools, then I think you as a software 1000 00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,960 developer would be also a more happier software developer. 1001 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,080 And we mentioned before managers. 1002 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:40,240 You should know that happy programmers are creative and 1003 00:50:40,240 --> 00:50:42,520 good programmers. Right. 1004 00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:45,720 Thanks for the plug. So Walter, If people love this 1005 00:50:45,720 --> 00:50:47,280 conversation, they want to learn more. 1006 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,800 Is there a place where they can find you online, including your 1007 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,800 professional bakery blog? Well, it's it's not really a 1008 00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:56,440 professional bakery blog. It's a blog about any thought 1009 00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:59,360 that I have and I call myself a brainbaker because I refuse to 1010 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:02,800 be a specialist. So yeah, you can find me there 1011 00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:06,560 at brainbaking.com. I blog regularly and I've been 1012 00:51:06,560 --> 00:51:10,280 active on X slash Twitter for years and years, so you can't 1013 00:51:10,280 --> 00:51:12,320 find me on conventional social media. 1014 00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,440 So the best way to recharge is just to go to my blog and 1015 00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,240 contact me via e-mail if you have any questions or insights. 1016 00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,760 Yeah, and also don't forget to buy the book and read the book. 1017 00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:23,840 I I've read it during my preparation. 1018 00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,000 I think it's really really insightful for me at least. 1019 00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,640 So you'll find some interesting ideas from the book as well. 1020 00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:31,360 And don't forget if you love games, right? 1021 00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:34,240 I'm sure by reading the book you'll be having nostalgic 1022 00:51:34,240 --> 00:51:36,800 moment, you know, like old games and things like that. 1023 00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:38,840 I think that can also spark new ideas. 1024 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:40,680 So thanks again Walter for this time. 1025 00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:43,080 I really learned a lot and hopefully all programmers here 1026 00:51:43,080 --> 00:51:45,400 can become more creative. Thanks so much. 1027 00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,600 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 1028 00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:54,320 until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I 1029 00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,040 would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues 1030 00:51:57,280 --> 00:52:00,320 who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode. 1031 00:52:00,720 --> 00:52:03,480 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 1032 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,880 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 1033 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,080 It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. 1034 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:12,480 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 1035 00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:15,480 the episode page at Techlyjournal dot dev website, 1036 00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:19,360 including the full transcript, interesting quotes, and links to 1037 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:21,760 the resources mentioned from the conversation. 1038 00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,240 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 1039 00:52:25,240 --> 00:52:29,040 list on Techlyjournal dot dev to get notified for any future 1040 00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,320 episodes. Stay tuned for the next 1041 00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:34,560 Techlyjournal episode, and until then, goodbye.