1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,000
The definition of a tech lead is
a person with a technical 

2
00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:06,700
background, typically, an 
engineer who is leading a team 

3
00:00:06,700 --> 00:00:10,300
and particularly responsible and
accountable for their technical 

4
00:00:10,300 --> 00:00:16,300
Direction. 
Hey everyone. 

5
00:00:16,900 --> 00:00:19,000
My name is Henry. 
Sorry Raven. 

6
00:00:20,200 --> 00:00:22,900
And you're listening to the 
tekhelet journal. 

7
00:00:23,500 --> 00:00:26,700
The show will be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders 

8
00:00:26,900 --> 00:00:30,500
practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

9
00:00:30,500 --> 00:00:34,800
discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

10
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,500
can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

11
00:00:38,700 --> 00:00:41,300
and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

12
00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:49,600
So let's dive into our Journal. 
Welcome to another episode of 

13
00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:52,600
the tekhelet journal podcast 
with me, Ojos, Henry Surya, 

14
00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:54,500
where I won. 
If you have been enjoying the 

15
00:00:54,500 --> 00:00:57,500
podcast and would like to follow
any new updates coming out of 

16
00:00:57,500 --> 00:00:59,800
the show. 
You can subscribe to our e-mail 

17
00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,400
list at technology, you know, 
dot f, or you can also follow 

18
00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,200
our social media channels on 
LinkedIn or Twitter. 

19
00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,900
I've been very encouraged by 
some of your likes, your posts, 

20
00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,500
your sharing, and your retweets,
on those channels. 

21
00:01:12,700 --> 00:01:16,200
And I hope that more of them can
keep coming in order to At this 

22
00:01:16,200 --> 00:01:18,300
podcast to more people out 
there. 

23
00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,200
And if you would like to pledge 
your support and contribute back

24
00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,400
to the show. 
Make sure to check out our 

25
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:26,600
patreon page at tekhelet Journal
dot. 

26
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,900
F / Patron. 
I will greatly appreciate your 

27
00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:33,300
contribution and it would help 
me towards achieving a goal that

28
00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:36,800
I'm currently running on the 
page for many of you listeners 

29
00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:39,500
out there who have started 
following this show since the 

30
00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:42,400
beginning. 
Some of you asked me whether 

31
00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,600
this show is solely focused on 
the tech lead role due to the 

32
00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:48,800
The name that I use for the 
show, I would like to just 

33
00:01:48,800 --> 00:01:52,600
clarify a little bit that this 
show theme is around technical 

34
00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:54,900
leadership and Technical 
Excellence. 

35
00:01:55,500 --> 00:01:58,800
I think it just sound less 
catchy and a bit mouthful. 

36
00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:02,700
If I name the show, technical 
leadership journal and thus, I 

37
00:02:02,700 --> 00:02:06,400
chose to shorten the technical 
leadership to become Tech lead 

38
00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:10,800
and that's how I ended up naming
this show as technique journal 

39
00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:14,200
in summary. 
This show is not solely focused 

40
00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,600
for just tech leads. 
But it also covers technical 

41
00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:19,900
leadership and excellence in 
general. 

42
00:02:20,700 --> 00:02:24,000
However, for those of you who 
are The Real Techniques out 

43
00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,800
there, do not be disappointed. 
In today's episode. 

44
00:02:27,900 --> 00:02:31,600
I am really, really excited to 
share with you my conversation 

45
00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,600
with Patrick qua. 
Pep was my ex, click in thought 

46
00:02:35,600 --> 00:02:37,800
works. 
And is someone that I look up to

47
00:02:37,800 --> 00:02:41,100
and always follow for any Tech 
lead, related, knowledge and 

48
00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:44,300
wisdom. 
He has spent many many years 

49
00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,300
researching about the role. 
Roll and even came up with 

50
00:02:47,300 --> 00:02:51,200
training workshops and materials
to teach people on how to become

51
00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,400
a good Tech lead, including a 
book titled, talking with tech 

52
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,800
leads. 
I have been into one of his 

53
00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,600
workshops and I must tell you 
that it is one of the best 

54
00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:03,800
resources out there to learn 
about being a tech lead. 

55
00:03:04,500 --> 00:03:09,700
Afterthought Works Pat moved to 
end 26, a digital banking scale 

56
00:03:09,700 --> 00:03:14,900
up based in Berlin to become 
their CTO and there he showcased

57
00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:18,400
his technical Leadership skills,
transforming the product and 

58
00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,600
Technology team and culture to 
highly aligned with the demand 

59
00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:24,800
of the hyper-growth scale-up 
company. 

60
00:03:25,700 --> 00:03:29,300
This episode contains a lot of 
our deep conversation about 

61
00:03:29,300 --> 00:03:32,100
tekhelet including the 
definition of the role, the 

62
00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:35,900
quality attributes, how to be 
effective in the row, and some 

63
00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:38,900
of the success measures. 
I highly enjoyed our 

64
00:03:38,900 --> 00:03:42,600
conversation and I hope that you
all can learn a lot from it. 

65
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,800
And make sure you leave me any 
comments or feedback about The 

66
00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:49,400
episode, let's get started. 
Are you start up in software 

67
00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:51,900
development Which is less than 
five years old. 

68
00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:56,400
If yes our sponsor at jetbrains 
have a 50% startup discount 

69
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,900
offer, which allows startups to 
purchase multiple products and 

70
00:03:59,900 --> 00:04:03,700
subscriptions for up to 10 
unique licenses over a period of

71
00:04:03,700 --> 00:04:07,900
months to find out more search 
for jetbrains startup discount 

72
00:04:07,900 --> 00:04:11,400
offer or you can check out the 
link mention in the show notes. 

73
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:16,800
Hey, Pat, It's good to see you 
again. 

74
00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:19,600
Welcome to the technology. 
You know, I Henry nice to see 

75
00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:20,800
you. 
Thank you very much for having 

76
00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:22,200
me here. 
Pleasure to be here. 

77
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:24,900
Yeah, I'm really, really excited
to have you here because I've 

78
00:04:24,900 --> 00:04:27,700
been following a lot of your 
work since that works days. 

79
00:04:27,700 --> 00:04:30,500
I've been in one of your Tech 
lead workshops as well. 

80
00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:33,500
I really, really enjoyed that 
and I hope you can share some of

81
00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:35,600
the techniques wisdoms that you 
have here as well with the 

82
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,600
audience. 
And I'm also looking forward to 

83
00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:41,400
learning of your talk, story, 
126 and also it what you're 

84
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,000
doing at this moment, so 
probably we can start with. 

85
00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:46,200
What are you up to now at this? 
This time. 

86
00:04:46,500 --> 00:04:49,300
Yeah, thank you very much. 
So I left and 26. 

87
00:04:49,300 --> 00:04:52,200
At the end of last year. 
I was there for about two and a 

88
00:04:52,207 --> 00:04:54,500
half years is CTO and chief 
scientist. 

89
00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:56,400
I think to explain a little bit 
about what I'm doing now. 

90
00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,300
I want to just give a little bit
of background as to what I was 

91
00:04:58,300 --> 00:05:00,700
doing there. 
You've benefited from some of my

92
00:05:00,700 --> 00:05:03,700
tech lead training and material 
and I'm very passionate about 

93
00:05:03,700 --> 00:05:06,000
the topic as you can tell. 
I've been doing it for a while 

94
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,900
and that's one of the reasons I 
decided to go more independent. 

95
00:05:08,900 --> 00:05:12,200
I really enjoyed my time. 
Growing technical leaders and 26

96
00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,900
Iran. 
This Tech lead course about five

97
00:05:14,900 --> 00:05:17,100
or six times. 
And suddenly just because we had

98
00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:19,800
so many people that both needed 
to go and they're totally 

99
00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,600
Journey, but also want to make 
sure they had the right support.

100
00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,300
And I had a lot of requests from
other companies about helping 

101
00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:28,000
them with building out their 
technical leaders and also 

102
00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:31,100
themselves as ctOS and VP 
engineering from my perspective.

103
00:05:31,100 --> 00:05:33,600
It's something I enjoy doing. 
It seemed like there was some 

104
00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,700
man for this and as a result, I 
wanted to be able to do it 

105
00:05:36,700 --> 00:05:39,800
outside of just one company. 
So, that's the trade-off. 

106
00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,400
Would begin, a more permanent 
spot is that I could do with all

107
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:45,100
the people in that company, but 
then I was also a limited to 

108
00:05:45,100 --> 00:05:46,500
that. 
At the beginning of the year, I 

109
00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:48,700
went more independent and 
focused on a couple of different

110
00:05:48,700 --> 00:05:50,600
things. 
So one of them is coaching and 

111
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,500
mentoring of ctOS, and VP 
engineering's of particular, 

112
00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:56,400
scale up. 
So, I've been there as a CTO, 

113
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,800
when you will, at that sort of 
top executive area. 

114
00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,700
You can feel quite lonely and 
it's often good to have support.

115
00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:06,100
Either peers or mentors, who can
help you through interesting 

116
00:06:06,100 --> 00:06:09,400
challenging times, particularly,
with scale up or startup type 

117
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:11,700
companies. 
A lot of people haven't had the 

118
00:06:11,700 --> 00:06:13,700
experience and so they just want
to understand what are the 

119
00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:17,000
challenges and how to do that. 
So, I Mentoring and coaching at 

120
00:06:17,000 --> 00:06:19,600
an individual basis. 
I like working with the people 

121
00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:22,600
at the top of a company because 
they're creating the environment

122
00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:24,900
for everyone else. 
So my theory here is that if I 

123
00:06:24,900 --> 00:06:27,900
can help those technical 
leaders, be a lot more effective

124
00:06:27,900 --> 00:06:30,300
than everyone in that 
environment benefits from that 

125
00:06:30,300 --> 00:06:31,900
as well. 
So that's what I really enjoy 

126
00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:32,900
doing. 
The second thing. 

127
00:06:32,900 --> 00:06:35,900
I'm doing is running Tech lead 
workshops, obviously with a 

128
00:06:35,900 --> 00:06:38,100
current situation and covid 
haven't been able to do that 

129
00:06:38,100 --> 00:06:39,500
many in person at the beginning 
of the year. 

130
00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:41,300
It was happening. 
But like everyone else. 

131
00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:43,800
I've had to adapt of adapted 
that in a couple of different 

132
00:06:43,800 --> 00:06:46,500
ways now. 
So I have Self-driven learning 

133
00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:49,200
courses on a website called the 
tech lead Academy. 

134
00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,300
So, the moment of developed two 
courses, one about time 

135
00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:54,200
management and systems, 
thinking, I've recently launched

136
00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:58,100
a online Workshop built from the
ground up, particularly for this

137
00:06:58,100 --> 00:07:00,300
distributed manner. 
It's a three-hour Workshop 

138
00:07:00,300 --> 00:07:03,300
because translating two days 
into an online to day thing. 

139
00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:05,300
I know just won't work. 
And so it's a three-hour 

140
00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:08,000
Workshop where there's 
interactive exercises. 

141
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:11,100
There's interaction with myself 
using some tools that allow us 

142
00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:13,800
to do group interaction, which 
is a lot more effective than 0.2

143
00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,500
0.0 pursue more hang out and 
then Some exercises. 

144
00:07:16,500 --> 00:07:19,100
I've run one of these workshops 
already and then I'm doing one 

145
00:07:19,100 --> 00:07:20,800
more per month until the end of 
the year. 

146
00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:23,800
And then I've had a little bit 
more free time and flexibility 

147
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:25,400
to pick up some interesting 
projects. 

148
00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:27,000
So I can do things like this 
podcast. 

149
00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:30,100
Thank you very much and I meet 
some interesting people, like 

150
00:07:30,100 --> 00:07:32,700
everyone else this year. 
It's been a very unplanned but 

151
00:07:32,700 --> 00:07:36,000
also adaptive year and I'm also 
just really grateful that I can 

152
00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:37,900
do a lot of my work. 
Remote cool. 

153
00:07:37,900 --> 00:07:40,500
Thanks for sharing that. 
I see your career profile. 

154
00:07:40,500 --> 00:07:43,300
It's very interesting for me. 
So maybe we can go into your 

155
00:07:43,300 --> 00:07:46,400
career Journey, right? 
You spent about Almost 14 years,

156
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:49,000
in thoughtworks. 
The last role you have is adding

157
00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,900
principal Technologies. 
And then afterwards, like, what 

158
00:07:51,900 --> 00:07:55,000
you mentioned, two and a half 
years on 26, as a CTO. 

159
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,900
Can you maybe share with the 
audience hear about your career 

160
00:07:57,900 --> 00:08:00,100
Journey? 
What are some major interesting 

161
00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:02,900
turning points or highlights or 
maybe challenges that you went 

162
00:08:02,900 --> 00:08:06,100
through that, you want to share.
So maybe we can go back to the 

163
00:08:06,100 --> 00:08:07,900
very beginning. 
I've been working for about 20 

164
00:08:07,900 --> 00:08:11,600
years and I wasn't one of those 
people that was programming as a

165
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,100
kid. 
I was actually quite lucky. 

166
00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:15,500
I grew up in Australia and I 
took a class. 

167
00:08:15,700 --> 00:08:18,900
In high school called, I think 
it was icy information, 

168
00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,400
Computing and Technology where 
we learnt everything about like 

169
00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,800
word processing, where we 
actually did do a little bit of 

170
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,100
programming. 
So that was turbo. 

171
00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:27,900
Pascal back them. 
And even things like database 

172
00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:30,300
access programming, which is 
very interesting. 

173
00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:32,700
I just love this world of 
creating something out of 

174
00:08:32,700 --> 00:08:35,799
nothing to a certain degree like
digital kind of products in that

175
00:08:35,799 --> 00:08:38,200
creativity that you get. 
So, I decided that something I 

176
00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,799
would pursue in University and 
studied a business. 

177
00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:44,200
It degree Bond University from 
that. 

178
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:46,700
I was really lucky to all. 
All into a couple of different 

179
00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:50,800
opportunities did an internship 
with bell Labs, that was part of

180
00:08:50,900 --> 00:08:53,200
AT&T, which became loose into 
the time. 

181
00:08:53,300 --> 00:08:55,500
I actually learned a lot of 
pearl there, which is 

182
00:08:55,500 --> 00:08:57,800
interesting, but it's one of 
those hidden things that I don't

183
00:08:57,800 --> 00:09:00,300
typically talk about because 
their own fantasy Guru Pearl. 

184
00:09:00,300 --> 00:09:02,200
It's like PHP, we don't like 
that. 

185
00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,100
When I was there, I worked on 
this Amazing Project built by 

186
00:09:05,100 --> 00:09:09,000
some really amazing engineers 
and I was there standing it, and

187
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,500
it was one of the most 
well-constructed designs set of 

188
00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:16,300
testing scripts. 
That I'd seen me as a Can you in

189
00:09:16,300 --> 00:09:19,300
turn being able to extend? 
It just shows that you can 

190
00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:21,500
Design Systems well, regardless 
of language. 

191
00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,000
So I don't tend to think about 
language as being better or 

192
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:25,800
worse. 
There's obviously trade-offs, 

193
00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:29,100
but really comes down to how 
people engineer things for me. 

194
00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:31,600
That was actually a really 
important lesson because when I 

195
00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:35,600
went into work full-time, one of
my colleagues was an article 

196
00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,100
where we were doing an RD 
Healthcare platform for me. 

197
00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:43,100
I saw this engineering 
Excellence from Bell labs, and I

198
00:09:43,108 --> 00:09:45,400
was a bit torn because we had to
use these internally bill. 

199
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:48,400
Frameworks which were poorly 
documented which were not 

200
00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,400
typically very intuitive and we 
didn't have a lot of training 

201
00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,000
around that. 
So for me, it was like an 

202
00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:54,600
opposite. 
I was actually really lucky 

203
00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,400
because during that first job in
article, we were actually 

204
00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,100
experimenting with early 
versions of extreme programming.

205
00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,800
I was sitting on really long 
telephone calls, going through a

206
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,600
requirement specification, 
trying to understand what we 

207
00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,000
needed to do for building this 
Health Care platform, and I was 

208
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,700
like, those first graduate 
engineer saying, hey, I just 

209
00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:16,400
want to write some courage. 
Me something to do. 

210
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,000
I don't want to just spend time 
reading a specification and I 

211
00:10:20,008 --> 00:10:23,300
managed to pester my manager 
enough that he actually gave me 

212
00:10:23,300 --> 00:10:25,700
some side projects that he never
found the time to do. 

213
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,100
So, I now put myself in his 
shoes. 

214
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,800
He was injuring manager or Tech 
lead, but he was caught up in 

215
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:32,900
meetings all the time. 
So he never had any opportunity 

216
00:10:32,900 --> 00:10:34,700
to code. 
He had lots of great ideas of 

217
00:10:34,700 --> 00:10:37,100
making things better, but he's 
never had the time to code. 

218
00:10:37,100 --> 00:10:39,300
This is actually a great 
opportunity that he delegated to

219
00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:41,100
me. 
We were trying to use the first 

220
00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,800
version continuous integration 
server, called cruise control. 

221
00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:46,800
We were using a source control. 
All called CVS. 

222
00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:50,300
So if you think about get the 
precursor to that was version 

223
00:10:50,300 --> 00:10:52,800
and then because the two that 
were CBS, so was a few Source 

224
00:10:52,800 --> 00:10:56,200
Control Systems go, but the 
internal release processor 

225
00:10:56,200 --> 00:11:00,300
Oracle use a proprietary 
home-built version of source 

226
00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:02,300
control. 
We wanted to use continuous 

227
00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:05,300
integration, which was only 
working on CBS. 

228
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,400
And so, I ended up using my 
skills with pearl to actually 

229
00:11:08,400 --> 00:11:13,200
write an adapter layer as people
checked source files into CVS. 

230
00:11:13,300 --> 00:11:15,400
It would effectively mirror and 
push. 

231
00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:18,800
Although file changes into the 
internal source control system, 

232
00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:21,000
including things like tags and 
branches. 

233
00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:23,900
Those are really fun project 
that I worked on and we got to 

234
00:11:23,908 --> 00:11:26,600
play around with unit. 
Testing, with J unit. 

235
00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,800
We got to experiment with Deuce 
integration, trying to really 

236
00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,700
use the benefits of that. 
And also helps me underlying. 

237
00:11:32,700 --> 00:11:35,800
Why mindset makes a big 
difference in our industry? 

238
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,800
An example I'll give you is as 
we were experimenting with J 

239
00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:40,700
unit. 
The first unit testing framework

240
00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:42,000
or automated unit testing 
framework. 

241
00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,000
That I worked with people would 
write unit tests, but the way 

242
00:11:45,000 --> 00:11:47,600
that there would Right. 
It is they would use system out.

243
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,600
Print line. 
The current value is X and then 

244
00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:54,000
system out print line. 
The value should be why there's 

245
00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,000
something that you're not 
fundamentally getting about 

246
00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,300
this. 
Is that this old pattern of here

247
00:11:58,300 --> 00:12:02,000
is how I used to debug systems 
simply in a different tool and 

248
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,500
it made this interesting thing 
where people just follow the 

249
00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:06,100
tool but they're not thinking 
about. 

250
00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,800
What's the purpose of it in the 
value? 

251
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,000
For me that's been a principle 
of mine thinking about when we 

252
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:13,600
do use a process, when we use a 
tool. 

253
00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:15,400
We should be thinking about the 
value. 

254
00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,300
Get out of that. 
And are we getting what we 

255
00:12:17,300 --> 00:12:20,800
intend to get out of it? 
Because the context matters and 

256
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,100
the wrong tool, the wrong 
process in the wrong context, 

257
00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:25,500
won't give you that value, or, 
and it can really impede you 

258
00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:28,300
that led me down the path of 
extreme programming. 

259
00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:30,100
Where else can I do more of this
sort of stuff? 

260
00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:31,500
That's where I join, thought 
works. 

261
00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,800
And one of my first projects 
that I was on in Australia was 

262
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:37,600
working on this startup. 
Probably they're more of a 

263
00:12:37,608 --> 00:12:40,100
scale-up they've been running 
for a couple of years, but they 

264
00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:41,700
had problems scaling their 
system. 

265
00:12:41,700 --> 00:12:44,800
So we worked with them to boost 
their development team and also 

266
00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:47,600
to also Go out their system as 
an example back. 

267
00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,900
Then, Oracle had release cycles 
of probably 8 to 12 months. 

268
00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,300
We were releasing into 
production every week or two 

269
00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:56,100
weeks in the startup. 
It was such a very different 

270
00:12:56,100 --> 00:12:58,000
environment. 
There was nothing like, 

271
00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:00,700
continuous delivery tools. 
There was nothing like cloud 

272
00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,100
computing back then and here we 
are actually releasing fairly 

273
00:13:04,100 --> 00:13:08,100
continuously into production 
short planning cycles of every 

274
00:13:08,100 --> 00:13:11,100
two weeks or every four week 
planning Horizons, and it was 

275
00:13:11,100 --> 00:13:13,000
just a really fun environment to
work in. 

276
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,400
I learned a lot as an engineer. 
They're building systems. 

277
00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:17,900
AC into production. 
And then I moved over to the UK,

278
00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:20,600
where I was doing lots of 
Consulting for lots of different

279
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:25,000
types of companies, everything 
from telecoms banking government

280
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,200
charity. 
I think, for me the interesting 

281
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,500
part here was thinking, about, 
not just the engineering but 

282
00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,500
also, why is it that some 
Engineers have, maybe a bad 

283
00:13:33,500 --> 00:13:36,800
experience? 
They can't do what they can. 

284
00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:39,700
And I realized I had to do a lot
with the environment and it 

285
00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:43,300
really depended on the 
technically do OR manager and 

286
00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,900
how people set up that 
environment, one of the Reasons 

287
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:48,600
I have done a lot of reading 
over my lifetime around good 

288
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:52,300
leadership, good management has 
because it has such an effect on

289
00:13:52,300 --> 00:13:53,500
everyone. 
In a company. 

290
00:13:53,500 --> 00:13:56,200
We have so many examples of 
really poor management and poor 

291
00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,000
leadership. 
We need more concrete advice 

292
00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,500
about how people can be more 
effective leaders, and managers,

293
00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,100
so that we can unleash the 
potential that everyone has in 

294
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:05,900
their Workforce. 
That's something I really enjoy 

295
00:14:05,900 --> 00:14:09,300
doing working as a consultant 
was like, working within teams, 

296
00:14:09,300 --> 00:14:12,800
helping people feel more 
empowered through adopting more 

297
00:14:12,800 --> 00:14:16,100
agile processes, but then also 
starting to work, With leaders 

298
00:14:16,100 --> 00:14:18,600
and managers to help them 
understand their style needs to 

299
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:21,900
change in a very commanding 
control, kind of culture. 

300
00:14:21,900 --> 00:14:25,500
The leader role is seen as a 
particular type in more agile 

301
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:28,800
and powered, cultures where I 
often find myself repeating this

302
00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,900
Engineers. 
During often need to be told how

303
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:33,600
to solve problems because the 
essence of engineering is 

304
00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:36,800
problem solving what they need 
to understand is, what is the 

305
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:38,700
problem? 
What are the priorities and 

306
00:14:38,700 --> 00:14:41,500
also, what are the constraints 
in that environment? 

307
00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:43,800
What to optimize for? 
What are the trade-offs to 

308
00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:45,300
consider? 
Leave the engineering? 

309
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:48,300
Actually come up with the 
solution and implement it, but 

310
00:14:48,300 --> 00:14:49,700
they need help with that 
environment. 

311
00:14:49,700 --> 00:14:52,800
And so that's we're seeing 
leaders successful or not. 

312
00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,600
And what made them successful in
these environments. 

313
00:14:55,700 --> 00:14:59,200
My journey went through leading 
teams working with Management in

314
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,800
other companies that we worked 
with to help them unleash that 

315
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,200
and then started working with 
senior leadership people. 

316
00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:08,400
So being a director or a CTO 
helping them understand how they

317
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,900
set up the overall organization.
So that leaders and then teams 

318
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:14,400
could be a lot more effective as
well. 

319
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:18,100
Sometimes that was Context of 
migrating Legacy systems. 

320
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,800
And often it was more about the 
organizational side when I had 

321
00:15:20,800 --> 00:15:23,000
the opportunity to come and see 
to your office. 

322
00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:24,800
Kayla doesn't Consulting for a 
long time. 

323
00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:26,800
It was always working through 
other people. 

324
00:15:26,900 --> 00:15:29,300
I felt it was a really good 
opportunity to actually move in 

325
00:15:29,300 --> 00:15:31,900
and actually have the 
accountability but also the 

326
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:34,100
decision-making authority to 
say. 

327
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:36,400
This is the organization. 
I would like to build as very 

328
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,100
proud of the team that I built 
there. 

329
00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,000
When I came in. 
We had a very small engineering 

330
00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,300
team. 
Technology was about 50 people 

331
00:15:43,300 --> 00:15:47,200
of which about 35 of those Cool 
were product engineers and it 

332
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,400
was a very small proportion of 
the business. 

333
00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:52,200
One of the interesting things. 
I noticed there was actually the

334
00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:56,200
ratio of Builders to people who 
have ideas was way out of ratio.

335
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:59,000
And so I needed to trust that by
hiring and getting that to a 

336
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,800
good balance. 
But I also knew that the 

337
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:02,400
business was going to grow 
really rapidly. 

338
00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:05,900
The proportion of people who had
more requests or things to build

339
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:08,600
was also going to grow. 
So I had to really amplify 

340
00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:12,000
hiring which meant a very 
aggressive growth strategy for 

341
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,300
our engineering team. 
By the time I left at the end of

342
00:16:14,308 --> 00:16:17,200
last year and a half. 
Later growing the team from a 50

343
00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:20,700
to about 370 people carry large 
growth. 

344
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:22,500
And also that's an interesting 
thing because you have to think 

345
00:16:22,500 --> 00:16:25,900
about as things grow and you'll 
get different constraints and 

346
00:16:25,900 --> 00:16:26,900
problems. 
Along the way. 

347
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:30,200
This was really thinking about. 
OK, what stages will things 

348
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,700
break down? 
And so how do you change 

349
00:16:32,700 --> 00:16:35,700
structures team structures? 
How do you introduce roles or 

350
00:16:35,708 --> 00:16:38,200
capabilities that you didn't 
have before a different stages? 

351
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,600
And then also how do you sustain
that growth as your product and 

352
00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,400
engineering team is really, 
really growing. 

353
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,000
And so that's led me to where I 
am now and I talked about at the

354
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,400
beginning. 
Wow, it's pretty impressive 

355
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,900
journey, I would say there are 
lots of learnings that you share

356
00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:52,600
with us as well, which are 
pretty good. 

357
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,900
We can dive deep obviously 
later, but I want to start with 

358
00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:58,700
your bread and butter which is 
technically you can doing this 

359
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:00,100
for. 
I don't know how many years now.

360
00:17:00,100 --> 00:17:01,800
Yeah, probably almost ten years.
Alright. 

361
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,599
Wow, that's pretty long. 
So maybe let's start with what 

362
00:17:04,599 --> 00:17:08,099
is the definition of tech lead? 
I know there is no clear. 

363
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,599
Definition is pretty abstract 
for some people. 

364
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:12,800
But is there any good definition
from you? 

365
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,300
What is attacked lead? 
Well, carry it this way. 

366
00:17:15,500 --> 00:17:17,200
Saying every company is 
different. 

367
00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,000
So sometimes people might call 
them a engineering manager. 

368
00:17:20,099 --> 00:17:21,900
Sometimes it might be a lead 
developer. 

369
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:25,099
But for me, the definition of a 
tech lead is a person with a 

370
00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:28,300
technical background, typically,
an engineer who is leading a 

371
00:17:28,300 --> 00:17:32,100
team and particularly 
responsible and accountable for 

372
00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,200
their technical Direction. 
Sometimes you might call an 

373
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:36,100
architect. 
But these people are typically 

374
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:39,400
more Hands-On working in a team.
So some Architects tend to float

375
00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,200
around but this is really 
somebody who is a counted with a

376
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:45,900
team and really aligning team 
and their technical Direction. 

377
00:17:46,100 --> 00:17:48,700
The reason I think that's 
important is often a good high 

378
00:17:48,700 --> 00:17:50,600
performing. 
Team will probably work 

379
00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,400
naturally towards a different 
direction. 

380
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,900
But in a lot of cases, people 
disagree. 

381
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,000
And the question is, what 
happens when you disagree, you 

382
00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,600
need, somebody to make sure that
things are moving in the same 

383
00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,700
direction. 
So that's the essence of a tech 

384
00:18:01,700 --> 00:18:03,800
lead for me. 
So in the first place, why are 

385
00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:06,400
you so interested in researching
more about this? 

386
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,400
Because obviously you were doing
some kind of tech lead role 

387
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:12,200
during your projects, probably 
in thoughtworks Consulting and 

388
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,500
all that. 
But what made you decide that 

389
00:18:14,500 --> 00:18:17,000
you want to dive deeper? 
And deep and deep and even come 

390
00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,200
up with instead of workshops 
during your tire there. 

391
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:21,500
That's a good question. 
And I think like a lot of things

392
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:23,500
that comes down to a personal 
experience. 

393
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:25,700
I still remember when I was 
pushed into this role for the 

394
00:18:25,700 --> 00:18:28,400
first time is that nobody 
explained to me that 

395
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,500
expectations of this. 
Nobody helps me understand. 

396
00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:34,600
Okay, if these are their 
expectations, there was no 

397
00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,100
recognition of where your skills
are. 

398
00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:38,800
And also, where do you need to 
grow? 

399
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,400
I see this repeatedly in so many
companies where I think things 

400
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:45,300
like management. 
There's a little bit. 

401
00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:47,800
More training in general, around
this at leadership and 

402
00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:49,500
management. 
There's a lot of generic courses

403
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:52,300
that talk about that but the 
technical lead role I feel is a 

404
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:55,600
little bit special and that 
there are these expectations of 

405
00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,500
what somebody should be able to 
do in this role that a people 

406
00:18:58,500 --> 00:19:01,500
don't talk about. 
And then be, there's no support 

407
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:03,500
for giving people. 
The skills of doing that 

408
00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,400
typically people are moved into 
this role because it's a gut 

409
00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,200
feel that they're the most 
senior or feels like they're our

410
00:19:09,208 --> 00:19:11,500
Tech lead and they're ready to 
be that, but there's no 

411
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:13,300
discussion in preparation for 
that. 

412
00:19:13,300 --> 00:19:16,900
I guess where the origins of my 
Is for this is a mystery. 

413
00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:19,200
It's just really bad at this and
I really want to help our 

414
00:19:19,200 --> 00:19:21,500
industry. 
Get better at helping technical 

415
00:19:21,500 --> 00:19:25,300
leaders, move into this role 
published a lot of Articles book

416
00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,300
and a lot of talks about this 
topic and I hope it really helps

417
00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:31,300
people who are transitioning 
into that role or particular 

418
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,300
companies thinking about 
establishing this role about how

419
00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:37,500
to help people move into this 
role easier, because I've seen 

420
00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:40,300
too many times when it goes 
wrong, you get a most senior 

421
00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:43,900
engineer, as an example who gets
put into a tech lead role and 

422
00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:46,400
suddenly they're turning around 
telling one exactly how to write

423
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:50,200
code and how to structure code 
that the dictator type of person

424
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,900
and nobody wants to work with 
them ever again, and they have a

425
00:19:52,908 --> 00:19:55,400
bad experience because they 
think my team isn't working 

426
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,500
well, or I'm working with poor 
performing people. 

427
00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:00,000
They don't realize they're 
contributing to that as a system

428
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:02,500
and nobody's really sat down and
told them he has a different way

429
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:04,400
of approaching that it's about 
experience. 

430
00:20:04,400 --> 00:20:07,200
For that person who maybe gets 
traumatized never wants to do a 

431
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,400
leadership role. 
Again, it's bad for the people 

432
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,400
who work in the team because 
they don't get to bring their 

433
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,900
potential out and it's bad for 
the company because Typically 

434
00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:18,300
won't deliver an effective 
software project. 

435
00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:21,200
If we invert that and give 
people a really good opportunity

436
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,700
to transition into that role 
with the right structure for me.

437
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:26,700
It's the theory that they have 
the best likelihood of success. 

438
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,200
There's no guarantee when it 
comes to people, you can't force

439
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,400
people to learn. 
You can't force people to make 

440
00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:33,700
good decisions, you hope that 
they're good decisions. 

441
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:36,400
But if you can support people in
that transition and hopefully 

442
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:37,700
they'll have a better 
experience. 

443
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:40,400
They'll function better. 
They'll build a team at aligned 

444
00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:43,700
around technical choices and 
hopefully you end up with a 

445
00:20:43,700 --> 00:20:47,000
better software project. 
A better team atmosphere and the

446
00:20:47,008 --> 00:20:49,000
company benefits as well. 
So I see it. 

447
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,500
As a win-win. 
You have been around for quite a

448
00:20:51,508 --> 00:20:53,300
number of years. 
You'll probably have to work a 

449
00:20:53,308 --> 00:20:56,400
lot of engineering teams. 
What I'm trying to ask is that, 

450
00:20:56,400 --> 00:21:00,500
have you seen the trend changing
to the better or is it probably 

451
00:21:00,500 --> 00:21:02,800
much the same than the previous 
one. 

452
00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:04,600
I do believe that we're getting 
better. 

453
00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:08,000
I think industry is relatively 
young still and one of the 

454
00:21:08,008 --> 00:21:10,100
reasons I've published talking 
with tech leads. 

455
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:13,700
I think it's 2014 was there was 
nothing really around the sort 

456
00:21:13,700 --> 00:21:17,000
of material and today. 
There's a lot of books and a lot

457
00:21:17,008 --> 00:21:20,000
of talks and a lot more 
communities around engineering 

458
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,700
leadership or management. 
I think one of the really great 

459
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:24,700
book that gives people a good 
insight into many different 

460
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:27,500
career paths is the managers 
path by Camille for Nia 

461
00:21:27,500 --> 00:21:29,600
outlines. 
What does that look like on the 

462
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,000
journey into being? 
Maybe a CTO and what are the 

463
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:33,900
skills and changes in 
responsibilities? 

464
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:37,600
Along that pathway in Europe. 
We have a community or a 

465
00:21:37,608 --> 00:21:39,700
conference called the lead Dev. 
They used to run these 

466
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:41,300
engineering leadership type 
things. 

467
00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:45,200
I see a lot more people speaking
about this topic a lot. 

468
00:21:45,300 --> 00:21:48,300
More knowledge that is out there
and I think that's really great 

469
00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:50,500
because more stuff that we can 
get out there. 

470
00:21:50,500 --> 00:21:53,600
The more accessible it is and we
just have so many people coming 

471
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,100
to our industry, where more 
support from different 

472
00:21:56,100 --> 00:21:58,000
perspectives is always going to 
be better. 

473
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,900
It's very good to hear that. 
So you mentioned a lot of things

474
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:02,800
about the responsibilities of 
tech lead. 

475
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,600
They need to make technical 
Direction obviously because of 

476
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:07,400
that, they need to know some 
technical skills. 

477
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:10,600
And also they need to work with 
people managing, either above or

478
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:12,700
below within the team or even 
themselves. 

479
00:22:12,700 --> 00:22:14,900
So maybe, can you share with us?
What are some of the 

480
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,000
fundamental? 
Those skills are good attributes

481
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,900
of a good, technical lead. 
It's a great question. 

482
00:22:19,900 --> 00:22:21,700
Let's start off with the 
technical side. 

483
00:22:21,700 --> 00:22:23,700
It's difficult to lead. 
Technical topics, unless you 

484
00:22:23,700 --> 00:22:25,800
understand what people are 
talking about. 

485
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,700
So, I think this is where 
there's a little bit of 

486
00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:29,800
rebuffed. 
When you hear about people 

487
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,400
saying, I don't want a non 
technical manager and that's 

488
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,300
okay to have a non technical 
manager. 

489
00:22:34,300 --> 00:22:37,300
If they're not responsible for 
leading technical decisions. 

490
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:38,900
That's where for me, the 
difference of that technical 

491
00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:41,200
lead, is to understand what a 
good technical decision. 

492
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,400
They need to understand what is 
being talked about from that 

493
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,400
side. 
Your concrete example is if 

494
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,700
you're trying to decide of 
breaking up a service into 

495
00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:51,100
different types of 
microservices, somebody who 

496
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,600
needs to understand how that 
system is built and the 

497
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,700
trade-offs associated, with 
breaking up, the system in a 

498
00:22:56,700 --> 00:22:58,800
certain way. 
They need to really be able to 

499
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,300
understand that quite intimately
to understand if it's a good 

500
00:23:01,300 --> 00:23:03,300
choice or not. 
That's a little bit different if

501
00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:05,700
they're thinking about the team 
and how that's actually 

502
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:06,700
functioning. 
That's a little bit more 

503
00:23:06,700 --> 00:23:08,300
generic. 
You don't need to be technical 

504
00:23:08,300 --> 00:23:10,500
to understand our people, 
collaborating. 

505
00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,000
Well, are they avoiding 
difficult conversations? 

506
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:14,600
Still difficult? 
Perfect, but it's not so 

507
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,600
technical. 
As if you're trying to choose 

508
00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:18,800
the right tools and you're 
trying to understand how to 

509
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:22,000
improve developer productivity, 
and also maybe set the right 

510
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,700
example patterns. 
So if you have a less 

511
00:23:24,700 --> 00:23:27,400
experienced team, a technical 
lead, might actually be quite 

512
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,500
Hands-On to establish good. 
First time practices. 

513
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:33,100
There's that technical side of 
being a good, technical leaders 

514
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,300
that they need to have enough 
technical background, who better

515
00:23:35,300 --> 00:23:37,300
to do that. 
Well, I do like to say that a 

516
00:23:37,300 --> 00:23:40,800
tech lead is often, not 
necessarily the best engineer on

517
00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,100
the team. 
Sometimes, they are if you're in

518
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:46,200
a less experienced him, but the 
technique, Its function is not 

519
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:47,900
just to be the expert on 
everything. 

520
00:23:47,900 --> 00:23:50,600
It's just impossible to be an 
expert on everything, but they 

521
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,700
need to understand enough to be 
able to lead technical topics. 

522
00:23:53,900 --> 00:23:56,500
The second Focus there that I 
want to talk about is then the 

523
00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,800
leadership side of being the 
tech lead and this is really 

524
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,000
different skill sets. 
And this is why I sometimes the 

525
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,600
best Engineers aren't great, 
tech leads is because they have 

526
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:06,600
such a deficit in leadership 
skills. 

527
00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:10,300
So a good leader for instance 
will know how to engage the 

528
00:24:10,300 --> 00:24:13,700
entire team to bring in many 
different opinions and to get 

529
00:24:13,700 --> 00:24:17,100
the best solution out of that. 
Itself requires interesting 

530
00:24:17,100 --> 00:24:20,600
facilitation skills, the right 
questioning skills, the right 

531
00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:22,800
ability to create an inclusive 
environment, that allows 

532
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:25,000
everyone to feel safe to 
contribute their ideas. 

533
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:28,800
But then also a way to bring 
those ideas together to unify 

534
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:30,300
them. 
And then also to get that buy-in

535
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:34,300
from a team that itself is not a
technical skill, that is a 

536
00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:37,900
leadership skill that you have 
to develop and practice and not 

537
00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:40,400
all great Engineers 
automatically have that. 

538
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:43,400
And so that's why a lot of 
first-time that leads fail 

539
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,100
because they don't realize 
actually need to draw. 

540
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:46,500
On these great leadership 
skills. 

541
00:24:46,500 --> 00:24:48,900
You have to listen to people in 
your team or they'll get 

542
00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:51,800
disengage. 
Do you want to make sure that a 

543
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,900
decision gets made Fairly 
rapidly rather than having 

544
00:24:54,900 --> 00:24:58,200
conflicting opinions with people
go on under the surface? 

545
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,500
For a very long time. 
That's the second area of that 

546
00:25:01,500 --> 00:25:04,500
Tech lead role is thinking about
that leadership perspective. 

547
00:25:04,500 --> 00:25:07,100
The way, I tend to think about, 
this is a tech leaders 

548
00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:08,900
typically, leading within that 
team. 

549
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,700
So making sure that there's a 
consistent angle Direction, 

550
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:14,800
caring about technical quality 
to make sure that there's a grid

551
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:16,200
process. 
Some things like that. 

552
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,500
There's definitely leading 
outside of that team. 

553
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,100
Typically, you're maybe working 
with stakeholders to manage 

554
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:24,200
expectations. 
You're maybe working with a peer

555
00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:26,700
product manager to make sure 
that you're also aligned. 

556
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:29,400
So technical direction is 
heading in a way that supports a

557
00:25:29,408 --> 00:25:31,100
product strategy or the 
direction. 

558
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,500
And also, you have to be able to
lead yourself, you touched upon 

559
00:25:33,500 --> 00:25:36,600
this, a little bit earlier in 
that a lot of first-time leaders

560
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:39,300
don't realize how they 
communicate, how they react to 

561
00:25:39,300 --> 00:25:42,700
something has a kind of 
multiplying effect key part of 

562
00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:45,100
first time, ladies, I do this 
with a lot of Engineers and 

563
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,400
Allure of helping them build up 
a little bit of emotional 

564
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:50,500
intelligence to be aware of how 
they're actually feeling about 

565
00:25:50,500 --> 00:25:53,800
something, but also not to let 
those feelings automatically 

566
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,900
dictate, how they react to 
something. 

567
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:59,200
There's a skill in noticing and 
observing how you're feeling 

568
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,600
being able to call out what that
emotion is. 

569
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:04,700
And then also then to not let 
that interfere with how you 

570
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,100
decide to lead, or how you 
decide to communicate or handle 

571
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:09,000
a particular topic. 
Today are some of the different 

572
00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:12,500
broad categories of skills that 
I would expect from a tech lead.

573
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,400
It seems like there are so many 
things for you to be able to Be 

574
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,500
a good technical leader. 
So, I myself, personally also 

575
00:26:18,500 --> 00:26:21,400
struggled during that period in 
the beginning, when I became 

576
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,600
Tech lead either like in a 
project team or in a Consulting 

577
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,900
project as well with the clients
and at times, I feel sometimes 

578
00:26:27,900 --> 00:26:31,200
it's a bit difficult, especially
if you knew how to measure your 

579
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,400
Effectiveness as a tech lead 
because you see there, so many 

580
00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,500
things in play here, for 
example, you need to know the 

581
00:26:36,500 --> 00:26:38,400
technical skills. 
You need to be able to make 

582
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:40,700
technical decisions. 
Sometimes it's a hard technical 

583
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,600
decisions, where people probably
do not agree with each other and

584
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:45,100
also you need to be able to 
manage. 

585
00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:48,200
People your team, maybe your 
stakeholders as well and 

586
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:51,100
yourself internet, maybe 
imposter syndrome or how to 

587
00:26:51,100 --> 00:26:53,700
catch up with all these new 
technologies that the people are

588
00:26:53,700 --> 00:26:56,300
throwing up to you. 
Maybe you can share tips on how 

589
00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:59,700
to measure yourself whether you 
are good in terms of managing, 

590
00:26:59,700 --> 00:27:02,500
this kind of rule. 
So one of the transitions I talk

591
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:05,600
about when people move on, this 
is moving away from what I call 

592
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,700
maker to multiplier thinking 
when you're a maker. 

593
00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:11,200
So if you're thinking about a 
developer you often think about 

594
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,200
what is it that you have 
created, what have you produced?

595
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,700
And typically, that's Our 
feature of something like that, 

596
00:27:16,700 --> 00:27:19,300
when you're in a leadership 
role, you need to transition 

597
00:27:19,300 --> 00:27:21,400
into what is that multiplier 
perspective? 

598
00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:24,400
And the challenge with this, 
which I know this is an engineer

599
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,500
is that you don't get that 
immediate satisfaction. 

600
00:27:26,500 --> 00:27:28,700
So you have to deal with look, 
feedback loops. 

601
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:31,400
Sometimes there are some closed 
loops and that you don't get 

602
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,700
confirmation and it's often the 
challenge, basically for tech 

603
00:27:34,700 --> 00:27:36,700
leads is it's not binary 
anymore. 

604
00:27:36,700 --> 00:27:39,500
If you have a function or 
feature it works or it doesn't 

605
00:27:39,500 --> 00:27:41,400
work. 
It's a yes or no your build is 

606
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,400
red or it's green. 
So you have these binary habits,

607
00:27:44,500 --> 00:27:47,300
but then when you are Dealing 
with people organizations. 

608
00:27:47,300 --> 00:27:50,300
It's never really clear if 
you're done, or if it's good. 

609
00:27:50,300 --> 00:27:52,200
It's a little bit more thinking 
about good enough. 

610
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:55,100
So I think recognizing you have 
to move from makers and multiply

611
00:27:55,100 --> 00:27:58,100
mode is one of the success 
factors and when you think about

612
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:00,700
multiplier mode when you think 
about that success there, when 

613
00:28:00,700 --> 00:28:03,800
you reframe that is how much 
have you done to multiply the 

614
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,500
effectiveness of your team, then
you end up with a broader set of

615
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:09,700
options. 
And so one way that you can 

616
00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:13,700
think about it is thinking about
alternative Paths of reality. 

617
00:28:13,700 --> 00:28:16,700
What could have happened if you 
Intervene, if you didn't 

618
00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:18,600
actually intervene in a 
conversation between two 

619
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:21,900
developers who are constantly 
arguing, and if you let that run

620
00:28:21,900 --> 00:28:25,100
for weeks, you can have a lot of
messy code and tap debt. 

621
00:28:25,100 --> 00:28:27,900
And by recognizing. 
Oh actually we had a difficult 

622
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:29,500
discussion. 
We had this agreement but 

623
00:28:29,500 --> 00:28:31,800
actually at the end of that 
week, we came to an agreement 

624
00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,100
that sort of success itself is 
great. 

625
00:28:34,100 --> 00:28:36,300
Have to recognize that actually 
you've helped multiply the 

626
00:28:36,300 --> 00:28:39,000
effectiveness of your team. 
One of the things that a lot of 

627
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,600
leaders need to do is often 
unblocking or creating a path 

628
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:47,000
for the team with all the Plex 
city of an organization will 

629
00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:48,900
dependencies or things like 
that. 

630
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:52,500
And once again, it's like those 
things, those little wins about 

631
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:55,000
blocking things. 
These are things you should add 

632
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,000
into to answer that question 
about what have I done to help? 

633
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,900
Multiply the effectiveness of 
that, team things like 

634
00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:02,500
encouraging learning or 
knowledge. 

635
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:05,800
Sharing is a really great 
example of improving, the team's

636
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,400
ability to deal with more 
complexity to create a high 

637
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:11,400
performing team that actually 
collaborates. 

638
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:15,000
Well, that itself is also a 
great thing to be a multiplayer.

639
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:17,300
And to measure success. 
I think the challenge here is 

640
00:29:17,300 --> 00:29:20,700
that you don't have your ever 
done kind of thing. 

641
00:29:20,700 --> 00:29:22,700
And I think that's the big 
lesson here is you have to 

642
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:27,400
almost to accumulate actions or 
a series of wins, but it's not 

643
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,400
like you're ever done. 
You're not ever done with 

644
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:31,800
building a high performing team.
You have to kind of sustain it. 

645
00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:34,400
As you evolve your architecture 
your system. 

646
00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,700
Once again, it's never done. 
You have to keep it supples, 

647
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:41,100
keeper easy to change, make it 
resilient over time. 

648
00:29:41,300 --> 00:29:43,400
I think for me the ultimate test
is your team working. 

649
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,500
Well, is it delivering? 
All you to customers and to the 

650
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:48,300
company. 
And if you're doing all of that,

651
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:50,000
that itself is a good enough 
test. 

652
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,100
It's the question of what have 
you done to help make that 

653
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:53,500
happen? 
A lot more effectively. 

654
00:29:53,700 --> 00:29:56,600
So another question around this,
especially from me personally, 

655
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,500
all these obviously are great, 
but they are abstract at times 

656
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:01,600
because there are so many things
being thrown at you. 

657
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,100
For example, number of meetings 
that you have to go through and 

658
00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:06,600
you have to go with individuals.
Checking with them. 

659
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,800
Are they comfortable with 
whatever that they're doing at 

660
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,000
this moment? 
Setting up technical directions,

661
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,000
which could be either weeks, 
months ahead spending time there

662
00:30:14,100 --> 00:30:17,000
and also in the spirit of Jarrah
doing this retrospective of 

663
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,300
personal reflection personally. 
Do you have any quantifiable 

664
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:23,100
things normally that you would 
measure in terms of technical 

665
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:26,500
leadership? 
So, I think for tech leads in a 

666
00:30:26,508 --> 00:30:29,500
team, one thing that would be a 
measure would be how much time 

667
00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:32,400
do you spend in the code. 
And what I mean by that is not 

668
00:30:32,408 --> 00:30:35,500
necessarily writing code, but 
even at least reading and 

669
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,700
reviewing code, the challenges 
that tech leads have if they're 

670
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:40,800
going to lead things effectively
is they have to understand what 

671
00:30:40,808 --> 00:30:42,700
the current state that system 
looks like. 

672
00:30:42,708 --> 00:30:44,700
So it's hard to understand 
technical. 

673
00:30:45,100 --> 00:30:48,200
Risk, if you don't understand 
how that system is developing 

674
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,900
and because you have lots of 
people typically, modifying a 

675
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:52,400
system. 
It never stays the same. 

676
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,900
The trick here is not to read 
every single line of code. 

677
00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:58,600
But to get a good sense of how 
you delve into areas that you 

678
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,600
think are risky areas. 
Ultimately, a lot of leadership 

679
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,100
is about managing risk and a 
tech leaders, particularly 

680
00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:06,300
around managing the technical 
risk of the system. 

681
00:31:06,300 --> 00:31:09,200
I think one of the best ways of 
doing that is also delegating 

682
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,600
things to other people, a lot of
first-time leaders, sometimes 

683
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:13,200
feel a bit guilty about 
delegating. 

684
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,000
I do want to distract my team 
from doing something. 

685
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,300
But if it's done, right? 
You got to create opportunities 

686
00:31:17,300 --> 00:31:19,000
for people to grow. 
For instance. 

687
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:22,000
If I met Lee, that's first the 
only person looking at technical

688
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:24,900
risks, I might then start to 
work with people of my team to 

689
00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:27,800
help spread more of that Village
around what I look for, how to 

690
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:30,200
go about looking for it. 
And then I might also create a 

691
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,000
more informal opportunity to say
I'm going away on holidays for 

692
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,400
two weeks. 
Can you be the person that's 

693
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,100
watching out for an eating 
things and to maybe raise this 

694
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:39,300
at stand up, or raise this with 
the team that you think is 

695
00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:40,700
risky. 
So you're slowly delegating 

696
00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:44,300
these things and for a lot of 
people, it's a great opportunity

697
00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:46,300
for them to grow as As well 
because it's something they've 

698
00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:48,600
never done before. 
That's a win-win. 

699
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:51,900
If you delegate effectively as 
well and then that creates more 

700
00:31:51,900 --> 00:31:54,500
time for you as well. 
So that's definitely one of the 

701
00:31:54,500 --> 00:31:56,400
measures there. 
How much time do you spend with 

702
00:31:56,408 --> 00:31:58,400
the system? 
The second one is thinking back 

703
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,100
to that alternative reality is 
that I think a good sign of 

704
00:32:02,100 --> 00:32:04,700
technical leadership is the lack
of problems. 

705
00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,900
So the lack of emergencies is 
actually a very good sign 

706
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,600
because it means there may be 
managing enough workflow. 

707
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,700
The risk could be that people 
just keep quitting so that This 

708
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:18,400
is a technical risk and it's a 
lack of Engagement or a lack of 

709
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:19,800
growth. 
Maybe people aren't growing. 

710
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:21,900
That's a leadership thing to. 
Look at when I think about 

711
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:25,700
really good leaders. 
I think of things happening very

712
00:32:25,700 --> 00:32:27,800
smoothly. 
Of course, not everything is 

713
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,700
completely perfect. 
But I think the number of 

714
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:33,300
emergencies is definitely a 
worry about something going 

715
00:32:33,300 --> 00:32:34,900
wrong. 
If you don't have any 

716
00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:36,500
emergencies, I think that's a 
good sign. 

717
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,700
You can think about this from a 
technical perspective of how 

718
00:32:38,700 --> 00:32:40,500
many service outages. 
Do you have? 

719
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:42,500
How many builds get broken all 
the time? 

720
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,000
I think a healthy team should 
break the build every so often. 

721
00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:47,200
Often, but they shouldn't be 
broken for too long. 

722
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,300
And that's a couple of measures,
I would think about good 

723
00:32:49,300 --> 00:32:51,700
technical leadership. 
So some of the typical 

724
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:55,300
challenges for Tech lead, 
especially those that come from 

725
00:32:55,300 --> 00:32:58,500
strong, engineering background, 
one of the typical challenge 

726
00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,500
that I see a lot. 
Is that being able to let go? 

727
00:33:01,500 --> 00:33:04,200
For example, a lot of time, 
strong technical background, 

728
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,300
people tend to have an 
opinionated Solutions, or even 

729
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:08,600
the effects, like, whatever that
is. 

730
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:12,100
How do you think we should 
overcome that being able to sit 

731
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:15,000
back and try to let go of all 
these kind of decisions? 

732
00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:18,700
Just not to be solely on you as 
a technical it, but also giving 

733
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:22,200
people the opportunity to make 
the decision together as a team.

734
00:33:22,300 --> 00:33:25,100
This is really a journey to 
leadership for a lot of people. 

735
00:33:25,100 --> 00:33:28,300
And I go back to the idea of 
making to multiply mode as a 

736
00:33:28,308 --> 00:33:31,100
maker. 
You're typically invested in the

737
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:35,000
craft of how you built something
of how that solution was like 

738
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,300
your solution when you move to 
multiplayer mode, and I think 

739
00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:40,400
that's the hardest shift is 
really getting that mindset 

740
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,500
shift into thinking. 
You shouldn't be rewarded for 

741
00:33:43,500 --> 00:33:44,900
what you personally have 
produced. 

742
00:33:45,100 --> 00:33:47,500
But really, what the team is 
producing and how they're 

743
00:33:47,500 --> 00:33:50,000
producing that would that 
mindset or thinking about the 

744
00:33:50,008 --> 00:33:53,400
team, rather than yourself? 
That's the kind of Journey that 

745
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,800
people have to go through to 
step back a little bit. 

746
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,200
And then I think the challenge 
that people have is often 

747
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,100
getting the feedback early 
enough. 

748
00:34:00,100 --> 00:34:02,400
When they're falling to patterns
of behavior. 

749
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,300
Sometimes their actions. 
They don't realize they're 

750
00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,300
actually constraining and team 
as an example. 

751
00:34:07,300 --> 00:34:09,300
I worked with some tech leads in
the past. 

752
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:11,199
Who when they moved into that 
role. 

753
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:13,699
They thought they were doing 
their team of favor by taking 

754
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:16,000
all the hard problems. 
I don't want my team to be 

755
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,900
stressed out. 
I'm the most senior person. 

756
00:34:17,900 --> 00:34:20,300
I'm going to take care of all 
the complexity but then the 

757
00:34:20,300 --> 00:34:23,600
challenges you alluded to like a
you have a lot of meetings be 

758
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,000
have to communicate a lot more 
and get that Focus time as much 

759
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:28,300
as you do as a developer. 
Typically what happens is those 

760
00:34:28,300 --> 00:34:30,400
people get really stressed out 
because they're trying to do too

761
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:31,800
much. 
So they're trying to tackle 

762
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:33,900
complexity. 
They're trying to do all the 

763
00:34:33,900 --> 00:34:36,699
other sort of responsibilities. 
And then the side effect that 

764
00:34:36,699 --> 00:34:40,500
they don't see is people don't 
have an opportunity to basically

765
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:43,400
tackle more complex problems, 
which is often a way that people

766
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,100
can grow as engineers. 
As Engineers solve certain 

767
00:34:46,100 --> 00:34:48,300
problems. 
They want more complex problems 

768
00:34:48,300 --> 00:34:51,000
or different problems. 
What a lot of people that 

769
00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:52,900
leadership role don't realize 
they're doing is that they're 

770
00:34:52,900 --> 00:34:56,100
actually limiting the growth of 
their people and their team will

771
00:34:56,100 --> 00:34:59,000
eventually disengage because 
they don't have any interesting 

772
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,500
work. 
This is something that people 

773
00:35:00,500 --> 00:35:02,500
don't really understand if 
they're a really focused on 

774
00:35:02,500 --> 00:35:05,500
themselves versus focusing on 
what's better for the whole 

775
00:35:05,500 --> 00:35:09,200
team, but it is really hard 
because you have your style of 

776
00:35:09,200 --> 00:35:11,900
wanting to do things. 
You want to see your preferences

777
00:35:11,900 --> 00:35:13,500
come out. 
One of the things that can 

778
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:18,000
really help here is a Focus on 
outcome rather than output. 

779
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,700
Typically. 
A lot of first-time leaders will

780
00:35:19,700 --> 00:35:22,600
be focused on how something is 
going to be done. 

781
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:25,700
That's the output. 
So the method exactly how that 

782
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:27,900
could work be structured or the 
service design. 

783
00:35:28,100 --> 00:35:30,900
What they should really be 
focused on is really outcome. 

784
00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:34,800
Did we achieve what we needed to
do to help customer problems? 

785
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,300
Or have we improve resilience 
for certain way because if 

786
00:35:38,300 --> 00:35:40,800
you're really doing that then 
that's real test of leadership 

787
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,800
versus actually how you have 
actually done things. 

788
00:35:44,100 --> 00:35:47,200
I will say that it does. 
Is sometimes matter to focus on 

789
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,900
the how and the outcome because 
that's really coming down to the

790
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:52,000
alignment of the team. 
That's something that I do think

791
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,000
technical leaders, do need to be
careful of. 

792
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,600
You don't want suddenly 5 
persistence Frameworks because 

793
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,500
everyone wants their own style 
of writing stuff to a database 

794
00:35:59,500 --> 00:36:02,100
or table or something. 
You need some consistency. 

795
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:04,900
So that there's a team sort of 
feel and so maybe going back to 

796
00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:07,400
your thing about a test of does 
the code look like it was 

797
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,400
written by a single person. 
That's one of the things that I 

798
00:36:09,408 --> 00:36:12,000
typically think about or does it
look like it's a team owned 

799
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,900
thing, or is it actually very 
highly siloed where you can see 

800
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,700
People's personalities based on 
code. 

801
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:19,100
So that's a kind of anti 
pattern. 

802
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:23,100
Yeah. 
I've seen such good before and 

803
00:36:23,100 --> 00:36:25,700
it was not fun to read that 
especially when you travel to 

804
00:36:25,700 --> 00:36:27,900
another class and wow, it's 
different. 

805
00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:31,700
So I noticed when you define the
technically, that's one thing 

806
00:36:31,700 --> 00:36:35,000
that I think in my opinion is 
not explicitly mention, which is

807
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,300
the business portion 
understanding about the business

808
00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:39,800
about the company, about 
Revenue, how the company make 

809
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,700
money is this intentionally 
defined that way you mentioned 

810
00:36:43,700 --> 00:36:45,800
also in the beginning that there
are Many definitions are 

811
00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:47,200
affected. 
Some people call it engineering 

812
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:48,800
managers and probably even call 
it. 

813
00:36:48,800 --> 00:36:51,400
CTO, is this? 
Where the place where the focus 

814
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,400
on business, is more towards 
City, oppresses the technique. 

815
00:36:54,500 --> 00:36:56,500
It's a great question. 
And I think I didn't really 

816
00:36:56,500 --> 00:36:59,300
emphasize it because my 
expectation, is that every good 

817
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:01,200
engineer focuses on the 
business. 

818
00:37:01,300 --> 00:37:04,100
I know that's not the reality. 
But my underlying Assumption of 

819
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:07,300
a good engineer, is that they 
should also be caring about how 

820
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:11,400
their work has an impact of some
sort, but you're right leads, do

821
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,900
need to be a lot more engaged 
with the business and that sort 

822
00:37:13,900 --> 00:37:16,600
of escalates three. 
Really comes back down to the 

823
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:18,400
outcome. 
What are you really trying to 

824
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,500
optimize for? 
What are the constraints that 

825
00:37:20,500 --> 00:37:22,900
you make decisions by? 
If you're in a financial 

826
00:37:22,900 --> 00:37:26,600
services, you'll need to think 
about things like regulation and

827
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,700
how you build software will 
change because of that context, 

828
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,300
leaders have to be really aware 
of what that business outcome, 

829
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:34,500
ins. 
But also the current parties of 

830
00:37:34,508 --> 00:37:37,900
the business in covid X. 
Some businesses are a lot more 

831
00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:39,900
cash-strapped because of their 
business model. 

832
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:42,300
That means that actually you 
probably need to be very 

833
00:37:42,300 --> 00:37:44,700
cognizant of how that comes into
your team. 

834
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,700
Training budgets. 
You probably cut used during 

835
00:37:46,700 --> 00:37:49,100
that time or you have to think 
of ways of cutting costs as a 

836
00:37:49,100 --> 00:37:51,900
business and all good leaders 
will also be thinking about how 

837
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:54,700
their work contributes, the 
bigger broader goals, but I also

838
00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:56,700
challenge that every good 
Engineers should be really 

839
00:37:56,700 --> 00:37:58,500
focused on that. 
That was one thing that I 

840
00:37:58,508 --> 00:38:01,900
learned from agile, very early 
on which is about engineers that

841
00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:04,700
come up with technical things to
do without being able to link it

842
00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:08,100
to business value to me the 
heart of every good engineer and

843
00:38:08,107 --> 00:38:11,100
that applies equally to tech 
leads and all the people in 

844
00:38:11,100 --> 00:38:13,900
leadership chain, should be 
really focused on what is the 

845
00:38:13,900 --> 00:38:17,400
business outcome. 
Value that their work is doing 

846
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:19,600
and I can think of now that 
you've entered so many counter 

847
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,300
examples of tech leads who go. 
I just want to walk around with 

848
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:24,600
X tool. 
So coming up with some reason 

849
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:26,300
but there's no business value 
out of it. 

850
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:29,200
And typically they have some 
fun, but then the business turns

851
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,500
around says, hey, what have you 
been doing for three months? 

852
00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:33,800
Why are we doing this? 
No, you're not going to have 

853
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,000
this anymore and then the team 
gets disassembled or something 

854
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:37,700
like that. 
Everything always has to have a 

855
00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:41,000
value of some sort and leaders 
and Engineers. 

856
00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:42,200
Really need to be focused on 
that. 

857
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,300
Thank you for your 
clarification. 

858
00:38:44,300 --> 00:38:46,700
I really like That a good 
engineer needs to care about the

859
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:49,200
business and the impact, they're
bringing to the, overall growth 

860
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:51,600
of the company or whatever 
business measures that they are 

861
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:53,200
measuring. 
I think this is also a good 

862
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:58,100
segue to move to your next row, 
which is becoming a CTO at 10:26

863
00:38:58,100 --> 00:38:59,600
and you kind of mention in the 
beginning. 

864
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,500
You want to move to a position 
where you have more 

865
00:39:02,500 --> 00:39:05,200
accountability and also have 
more responsibility in terms of 

866
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:06,900
decision-making. 
Aligning. 

867
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:09,900
The whole team is also an 
interesting Journey where you 

868
00:39:09,900 --> 00:39:12,500
keep mentioning about scale up. 
And there are many companies who

869
00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:14,800
aspire to scale as much as 
possible. 

870
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,600
Their business growth. 
Can you probably tell us during 

871
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,400
that time? 
What are some of the first 

872
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,700
things that you did as a CTO 
which was still small size 

873
00:39:22,700 --> 00:39:24,900
around 50 people? 
You mention, what are some of 

874
00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:28,000
the first things that you did? 
So before I talk about what I 

875
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,700
did, I want to talk about my 
thought, process behind it, 

876
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,100
because that's something that a 
lot of people don't get insights

877
00:39:33,100 --> 00:39:36,000
into firstly. 
Every CTO is different. 

878
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:38,500
The number of types are 
archetypes and situations for 

879
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:42,600
ctOS, are even more diverse than
probably the types of techniques

880
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,700
that you have. 
I think the name of a CTO is 

881
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:46,200
one. 
Of the most poorly named titles 

882
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:48,900
as well, because it's a bit of a
placeholder for you, have some 

883
00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:52,300
sort of technical responsibility
and you just make stuff work in 

884
00:39:52,300 --> 00:39:53,700
some places. 
It's a lot more strictly 

885
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:55,400
defined. 
For example, it might be a bit 

886
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,800
more R&D, technical strategy 
about 35 year roadmap other 

887
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:01,400
people might be about the 
currents technical direction for

888
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,600
the platform. 
There's some basis to around the

889
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,600
technology in that team, but 
just be aware. 

890
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,900
That actually the role of a CTO 
is really different when I came 

891
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:10,000
into and 26. 
It was one of the things I was 

892
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,100
trying to get an understanding 
of is, what's the focus point 

893
00:40:13,100 --> 00:40:14,800
for this role. 
What's the thing? 

894
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,600
Is that will deliver? 
The most value is a question 

895
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,000
that I have? 
That's why it's different in 

896
00:40:20,008 --> 00:40:23,200
every situation because when I 
left for instance, we would have

897
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,300
a different set of challenges 
because the organization has 

898
00:40:26,300 --> 00:40:29,200
grown and evolved as a result. 
One of the things I encourage 

899
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,700
leaders to do is to take stock 
of the environment, understand 

900
00:40:32,700 --> 00:40:35,300
what your environment is like 
before you make decisions. 

901
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:37,900
So I don't believe in cargo cult
Ting, even though it worked in 

902
00:40:37,900 --> 00:40:39,600
agile Fashions. 
I didn't really come in and say 

903
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:41,000
we're all doing extreme 
programming. 

904
00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:43,300
I didn't really enforce these 
kind of things. 

905
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:45,500
I really wanted to understand 
what Was there in that 

906
00:40:45,500 --> 00:40:47,200
environment? 
What was already working really?

907
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,000
Well? 
And then also what were 

908
00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,700
constraints or problems or 
challenges that were in the 

909
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:54,300
current environment? 
So My Philosophy to management 

910
00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:56,300
is you don't need to manage 
people. 

911
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:58,400
You need to manage the 
environment to bring out the 

912
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:00,800
best in people. 
That's what I was looking for. 

913
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,400
I really believe that good 
management is dealing with the 

914
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,700
topics that people recognize but
they don't maybe feel empowered 

915
00:41:08,700 --> 00:41:12,500
to address as an example, as we 
were growing and scaling one of 

916
00:41:12,500 --> 00:41:14,800
the topics that was coming up 
was things that were starting 

917
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,200
to. 
Full between teams, we had some 

918
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,500
teams that had ownerships of 
product areas, but then you 

919
00:41:19,500 --> 00:41:23,500
started to notice, maybe the 
interfaces, or a service bus or 

920
00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:26,600
something between the teams 
started not to have a strong 

921
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,100
sense of ownership. 
And so there was a lot of 

922
00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:30,400
conflict around that there was a
lot of frustrations. 

923
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,100
A lot of that came down to lack 
of clarity of maybe who's 

924
00:41:34,100 --> 00:41:36,500
accountable or how to go about 
solving this. 

925
00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:39,000
So I see that as a management 
problem of the certain 

926
00:41:39,000 --> 00:41:42,000
structures that you've got the 
moment leading to this and you 

927
00:41:42,008 --> 00:41:44,600
need to think about ways of 
tackling the constraint on that 

928
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:45,000
problem. 
Mm. 

929
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:46,700
I was cataloguing. 
What are some of these problems?

930
00:41:46,700 --> 00:41:50,000
One of the big ones was, 
obviously this ratio of product,

931
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,500
engineering to non product, 
engineering people to give you 

932
00:41:52,508 --> 00:41:55,700
an example product, engineering 
was eight percent of the entire 

933
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:58,500
company. 
We had about 450 people in the 

934
00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,300
company of which 35 people were 
product engineering, even if you

935
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:05,800
just ask 20% of those people for
something, you have no capacity 

936
00:42:05,800 --> 00:42:07,900
to actually build that. 
That was a huge challenge, which

937
00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:11,100
I realized I needed to work on 
both in recruiting also 

938
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:14,300
retaining and then looking at 
that recruiting process at the 

939
00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:16,000
same time. 
One of the next set of 

940
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:17,300
challenges that it was going to 
happen. 

941
00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:19,600
Was as we grew the organization,
particularly the tech 

942
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,200
organization. 
There's the old saying of what 

943
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,100
got you here, won't get you 
there. 

944
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:27,100
What worked for you at a certain
scale won't work for you and 

945
00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:28,800
another certain scale. 
That's true. 

946
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:30,000
As a leader, what works for the 
you. 

947
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,300
As an engineer won't make you an
effective Tech lead necessarily.

948
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,800
So you need to keep thinking 
about these Transitions. 

949
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,200
And then also thinking about 
what's a good fit for the next 

950
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:39,600
transition. 
One of the things that I 

951
00:42:39,607 --> 00:42:43,600
realized is, as we move from 50 
people and we get to 150 people.

952
00:42:43,700 --> 00:42:46,300
You just simply can't get over. 
Ran into the same room in a 

953
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:48,000
start-up mode. 
People are just used to talking 

954
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,500
to each other face-to-face. 
They grab somebody that they 

955
00:42:50,500 --> 00:42:52,100
trust. 
They go into a room and then 

956
00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:54,000
they make a decision and that 
habit works. 

957
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,000
Okay, Addison scale, but then it
starts to break down as we were 

958
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:58,900
growing. 
As also starting to look at how 

959
00:42:58,900 --> 00:43:01,900
do we think about processes or 
structures that would help us 

960
00:43:01,900 --> 00:43:05,100
scale and particularly as we 
started to go distributed, as we

961
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:07,700
open up an office in New York, 
as we open up an office in 

962
00:43:07,700 --> 00:43:10,100
Barcelona. 
These are very different 

963
00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:12,400
communication and cultural 
challenges. 

964
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,800
Where if you're all center 
around one headquarter thing. 

965
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:17,500
It's natural that people just 
focus on headquarters and they 

966
00:43:17,500 --> 00:43:19,700
forget about satellite offices. 
And this is something that I 

967
00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:21,300
basically tried to really 
invert. 

968
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,000
I really trying to build up a 
culture of inclusivity to make 

969
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,100
sure that all the other officers
were treated as equals versus a 

970
00:43:27,100 --> 00:43:29,300
secondary or third kind of 
office. 

971
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,100
The other thing that I worked 
out is that I needed to work out

972
00:43:32,100 --> 00:43:35,800
how to scale myself. 
My focus as a leader is looking 

973
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,400
at. 
How do we be more productive as 

974
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,000
an organization? 
How do I multiply that? 

975
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:41,600
And there's only so much that I 
could do. 

976
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,700
That was the other side of what 
I was going to do, which is what

977
00:43:44,900 --> 00:43:47,700
Has my leadership team look like
how does that Cascade into the 

978
00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:50,100
organization? 
And how do we support our team 

979
00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:51,800
to do all the things that we 
need to have? 

980
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:54,200
Then there's this hiring 
pipeline as well getting that 

981
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,100
all up and running onboarding 
and getting the structures there

982
00:43:57,100 --> 00:43:59,000
in place. 
That's the story of what I was 

983
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,500
focused on when I first got 
there. 

984
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:03,000
And some of the areas that I was
really trying to address. 

985
00:44:03,500 --> 00:44:06,600
Thanks for sharing that I'm 
interested in this ratio, like 

986
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,500
way of sight. 
For example, only 8% product 

987
00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:12,400
Engineers within the company and
I see this quite a few times as 

988
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:15,100
well, especially in small 
startups, for example, the They 

989
00:44:15,100 --> 00:44:17,900
have typically few Engineers 
trying to build a product and 

990
00:44:17,900 --> 00:44:20,900
then you have a big number of 
people at the management, who 

991
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:22,900
are throwing a bunch of features
for them to build. 

992
00:44:22,900 --> 00:44:26,400
So, in the first place, how do 
you actually convince the 

993
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,700
management to actually see the 
investment in hiring? 

994
00:44:29,700 --> 00:44:33,000
More Engineers is worth it? 
Because, maybe in some cities, 

995
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:34,700
it's pretty expensive to hire 
Engineers. 

996
00:44:34,700 --> 00:44:37,400
So the more you have them on 
board, obviously, the more 

997
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:40,000
expenses that you will have, how
do you convince them? 

998
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:41,500
That's the first thing. 
And the second thing is about 

999
00:44:41,508 --> 00:44:44,300
when they agree, how do you 
actually hire other? 

1000
00:44:44,900 --> 00:44:48,400
Things that you follow or 
framework for hiring people, to 

1001
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,000
be able to reach that skill. 
It's a great question to let's 

1002
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,100
first, tackle, the first one, 
how to convince people. 

1003
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:57,500
So in our case it was not so 
difficult to convince people 

1004
00:44:57,500 --> 00:45:00,300
part of it was to present the 
industry, metrics to a certain 

1005
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:02,900
degree. 
Now, there's no exact number but

1006
00:45:02,900 --> 00:45:06,500
8% is really, really small. 
If we were in a logistics type 

1007
00:45:06,500 --> 00:45:09,400
of business like Amazon or 
something with delivery, then of

1008
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,300
course, I wouldn't expect a 
fifty fifty percent ratio of a 

1009
00:45:12,300 --> 00:45:16,700
company to be Engineers, but we 
were More digital firm than 

1010
00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:19,000
something that has a lot of 
logistics or Hardware type 

1011
00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:20,700
stuff. 
So, just giving people a sense 

1012
00:45:20,700 --> 00:45:22,700
of okay, here is how other 
companies are. 

1013
00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:24,800
This is what we are. 
And that's definitely one thing 

1014
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:26,500
that definitely helps just in 
terms of Industry. 

1015
00:45:26,500 --> 00:45:30,300
Benchmarking, and just getting a
sense of what is a average size.

1016
00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:33,400
The second thing was really 
trying to focus on teaching our 

1017
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:35,800
leadership team about Theory 
constraints. 

1018
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,800
I did this a lot as a child 
coach in working with product 

1019
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,000
teams is helping people 
understand adding people to a 

1020
00:45:42,000 --> 00:45:44,700
non bottleneck doesn't really 
actually help the system over. 

1021
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:47,700
All typically, the area that 
happens when you're dealing with

1022
00:45:47,700 --> 00:45:50,300
the digital product is the 
engineering side. 

1023
00:45:50,300 --> 00:45:52,000
I kept saying everyone has 
ideas. 

1024
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,500
You've got ideas. 
I've got ideas. 

1025
00:45:53,500 --> 00:45:55,700
We've all got 59 years. 
That is not the problem. 

1026
00:45:55,700 --> 00:45:58,100
We don't need more people. 
That generate that, that's not 

1027
00:45:58,100 --> 00:45:59,400
the thing. 
That is actually generating 

1028
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,200
value. 
I also want people through 

1029
00:46:01,200 --> 00:46:03,800
Littles law, which teaches 
people, that's a longer. 

1030
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,000
The Hue is a more slowly, the 
overall system will go because 

1031
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:09,500
everyone is fighting for their 
pet project. 

1032
00:46:09,500 --> 00:46:12,500
They want some time but it's 
actually the focus on the most 

1033
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:15,200
valuable thing for the business.
Right now, helping people Stand 

1034
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:17,900
that and how the system works 
overall helped people really 

1035
00:46:17,900 --> 00:46:20,700
understand for us to actually be
able to achieve more. 

1036
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:24,200
It doesn't really make sense to 
hire more people with ideas. 

1037
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:25,700
We actually need to hide 
Builders. 

1038
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:27,500
So just getting a good sense of 
that. 

1039
00:46:27,500 --> 00:46:30,500
And then getting a good ratio. 
Now, in some businesses and I 

1040
00:46:30,500 --> 00:46:32,600
think this is important to 
understand is that I think it's 

1041
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:36,100
actually also bad to have too 
many Engineers too early in a 

1042
00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:38,400
start-up where you're still 
discovering product Market, fit.

1043
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,000
It may make more sense to have 
more sales people to try to, 

1044
00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:44,400
really make sure that there is 
that interest there boo, hire 

1045
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:45,200
more engineers. 
Veneers. 

1046
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,600
Because I think another bad 
thing that can happen that I've 

1047
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,000
seen in some companies is that 
you have too many Engineers with

1048
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,800
not enough to do and they get 
bored and they invent things to 

1049
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:54,700
do, which I actually delivering 
value. 

1050
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:56,200
So you can go the other way as 
well. 

1051
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,600
That's where business value. 
Focus is really important for 

1052
00:46:58,607 --> 00:47:01,100
leaders is to know which context
you're operating to really 

1053
00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:03,700
understand what is going to 
bring the business forward the 

1054
00:47:03,700 --> 00:47:06,500
most, but it was pretty clear 
when I came in that, we had so 

1055
00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:08,200
many different things that we do
to launch. 

1056
00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:09,500
We wanted to launch your 
products. 

1057
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:12,200
We want to launch you markets. 
We want to launch your so many 

1058
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:13,900
different things. 
We wanted to keep changing 

1059
00:47:13,900 --> 00:47:16,500
things that we already had. 
But like, who are you going to 

1060
00:47:16,500 --> 00:47:18,900
get to do any of this? 
It's the same people. 

1061
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:20,900
We obviously need to change that
and ZIP down. 

1062
00:47:20,900 --> 00:47:23,400
People put two and two together 
with business people. 

1063
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:24,600
They don't really understand 
that maybe the 

1064
00:47:24,600 --> 00:47:26,900
interconnectedness of software. 
They have a little bit more. 

1065
00:47:26,900 --> 00:47:29,200
Sometimes, a factory mindset of 
inventory. 

1066
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,000
I can produce more Supply. 
If I multiply, I can create more

1067
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:33,500
stock. 
I didn't have to go too much 

1068
00:47:33,500 --> 00:47:36,600
into the depths of why software 
is more complex to kind of 

1069
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,000
stuff. 
But simply the fact that we 

1070
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,800
don't have enough, people is 
definitely affecting our output 

1071
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,200
at some point. 
And then it's up to me as a 

1072
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:44,500
leader to make sure that they're
structured well, so they can be 

1073
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:46,800
as Productive as possible. 
Let's first part of your 

1074
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:48,700
question of your convince 
people. 

1075
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:51,100
Well, the second one that you 
asked, which I think was how to 

1076
00:47:51,100 --> 00:47:53,200
hire people. 
I think this goes back to the 

1077
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:56,100
first question or thinking about
first principles is, what are 

1078
00:47:56,100 --> 00:47:59,200
you hiring for? 
And what does that mean? 

1079
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,600
When I was thinking about 
hiring, one of the things I 

1080
00:48:01,607 --> 00:48:03,500
write being about a leader is 
that you get to create the 

1081
00:48:03,500 --> 00:48:05,600
environment of the culture that 
you have. 

1082
00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,800
And so for me coming from agile 
ground, I really want to build a

1083
00:48:08,800 --> 00:48:11,600
self-empowered collaborative, 
team environment. 

1084
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,700
And so naturally I want to look 
for the best things during the 

1085
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:18,200
Be a persis now with hiring. 
It's challenging because it's 

1086
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:19,700
challenging for everyone to 
hire. 

1087
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:22,300
One of the things I was asking 
myself is what is it that I can 

1088
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:25,100
offer as an opportunity for 
people to grow or interesting 

1089
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:27,900
problems for certain people so 
that I can attract people who 

1090
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:29,900
want to work on those types of 
problems. 

1091
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:32,400
For instance, working in a 
fintech bank. 

1092
00:48:32,500 --> 00:48:35,200
I'm not going to attract 
somebody who wants to work on a 

1093
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:38,200
music product like Spotify, but 
there's some interesting things 

1094
00:48:38,200 --> 00:48:40,300
of either the scale-up 
challenges or where your 

1095
00:48:40,300 --> 00:48:43,400
business is now that provide 
growth opportunities for people.

1096
00:48:43,500 --> 00:48:47,400
So I think trying to still, what
is your culture down to distill?

1097
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:49,900
What is it that your environment
can offer right now? 

1098
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:51,400
And then also to communicate 
that out. 

1099
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,600
Well, is a important part of 
hiring. 

1100
00:48:53,600 --> 00:48:56,200
That's probably where I was 
doing quite a lot of talks to 

1101
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,600
let people know. 
We are here is what we're about.

1102
00:48:58,700 --> 00:49:01,000
That's definitely one of those 
keys to the areas and we end up 

1103
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,000
building a Blog to also write a 
lot more about that. 

1104
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,400
That's why you see a lot of 
engineering blogs is that people

1105
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:07,600
want insights into how you build
things? 

1106
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:09,200
Is this how I like to build 
stuff. 

1107
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,400
There are companies that are a 
bit more Hack and Slash and 

1108
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,600
there are other companies that 
are maybe more robust by 

1109
00:49:14,900 --> 00:49:16,600
Disability or transparency of 
that. 

1110
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:19,600
Then people will naturally get a
bit more attracted to that as 

1111
00:49:19,600 --> 00:49:20,800
you go. 
So, I think that's the 

1112
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,700
attracting side and then when 
you think about the hiring 

1113
00:49:22,700 --> 00:49:24,700
process, I think is really key 
because this is something that 

1114
00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:26,200
we Revisited. 
A number of times. 

1115
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,500
As we grew, it was really trying
to be clear about what traits 

1116
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:31,500
you're hiring for. 
As an example. 

1117
00:49:31,500 --> 00:49:34,100
I don't really believe in 
whiteboard exercises, 

1118
00:49:34,100 --> 00:49:37,600
algorithmic tests, because often
They Don't Really Connect into 

1119
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:39,400
what people do on a day-to-day 
basis. 

1120
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,600
When I work with people to build
a hiring process. 

1121
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,600
The first thing I'm thinking 
about, is a What is expected 

1122
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,300
from this role? 
So what are the skills or 

1123
00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:50,500
experiences from that and then 
be, what's the best way of 

1124
00:49:50,500 --> 00:49:54,500
getting an example of capability
around that either through a 

1125
00:49:54,500 --> 00:49:58,300
simulation either through 
talking through past experiences

1126
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:01,100
or seeing some of the skills in 
action for some of our more 

1127
00:50:01,100 --> 00:50:02,500
senior leadership roles. 
For instance. 

1128
00:50:02,500 --> 00:50:04,700
There would be a case study 
where they would have to talk 

1129
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:07,500
about how they would handle a 
certain case for programmers. 

1130
00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:09,600
They would be dealing with a 
specific problem and then they 

1131
00:50:09,607 --> 00:50:11,800
had a show code because we 
wanted to see some of that 

1132
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:14,700
capability, but I don't believe 
in doing things. 

1133
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:17,000
Things for the sake of doing it 
just because other companies do 

1134
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:17,800
it. 
Once again. 

1135
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,400
It really has to come back to. 
What do you get out of that? 

1136
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:21,800
And what's the best way of doing
it? 

1137
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,000
The other thing that I really 
think is very important, which a

1138
00:50:24,008 --> 00:50:27,100
lot of people forget during the 
hiring process is remember, it's

1139
00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:29,600
a two-way street. 
People are interviewing you and 

1140
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,700
your company as much as you are 
interviewing them. 

1141
00:50:32,700 --> 00:50:35,200
That's a really important thing 
to keep in mind, is that for 

1142
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:38,200
some people, it may not work out
in this current situation, but 

1143
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,800
in the future, the opportunity 
May align. 

1144
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,100
Also you have to train people 
who are going to be part of that

1145
00:50:43,100 --> 00:50:46,300
process to help them. 
And they're testing you as much 

1146
00:50:46,300 --> 00:50:47,900
as you are. 
Testing them are these people 

1147
00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:49,600
who only work with in the 
future. 

1148
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,600
Can I learn something from these
people or are these people fully

1149
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,600
arrogant over thinking that the 
best and brightest and they're 

1150
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,700
trying to shame me because they 
want to show you how good their 

1151
00:50:57,700 --> 00:50:59,300
knowledge is. 
So that's something that you 

1152
00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:02,100
have to do a lot with people who
are many first-time interviewing

1153
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:04,600
as well, because it's a skill, 
and you have to really make sure

1154
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:06,400
that people are trained for that
as well. 

1155
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,200
Thanks for sharing that, I think
some of the good tips for those 

1156
00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:12,800
of you who are hiring as well 
coming back to this city of 

1157
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,600
asustek later, as you mentioned 
all. 

1158
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:17,900
The last few minutes, your 
responsibilities tends to change

1159
00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:20,900
when you are at the CTO level. 
So you have the public facing 

1160
00:51:20,900 --> 00:51:23,200
part of you. 
You have the hiring part. 

1161
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:24,900
You have the internal with the 
business. 

1162
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:26,900
You have also within the 
engineering team. 

1163
00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:29,400
What kind of Direction, what 
kind of culture that you have to

1164
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:31,600
build. 
So obviously, we only have 24 

1165
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:34,400
hours in the time from it. 
So how do you balance all these 

1166
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:36,000
with more and more 
responsibilities? 

1167
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,700
As you climb up the chain in the
leadership ox2? 

1168
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:42,900
This is how well you can build a
team and how well you can 

1169
00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:45,300
delegate. 
That's really the sense of 

1170
00:51:45,300 --> 00:51:47,400
effective leadership if you 
think about sat here at 

1171
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,500
Microsoft because another person
who's going to be writing every 

1172
00:51:49,500 --> 00:51:52,000
single product in Microsoft. 
He just simply doesn't have the 

1173
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,900
time but the reason he can run 
something like Microsoft is his 

1174
00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:58,600
built, a good leadership team 
and management team where he can

1175
00:51:58,600 --> 00:52:01,000
trust and delegate. 
That the art of any leader is 

1176
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,300
knowing what part you can play 
in that sort of bigger picture. 

1177
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:07,600
But also, what's the right 
people that you can grow and 

1178
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,800
hire, sometimes you can grow 
them internally and promote. 

1179
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:12,400
Sometimes you may have to bring 
in those skills externally and 

1180
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:14,600
then just find a way of letting 
them work. 

1181
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:17,300
Together as well. 
The essence of it is knowing how

1182
00:52:17,300 --> 00:52:20,000
to delegate something, knowing 
how to give people 

1183
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:23,000
responsibility and then also 
manage that system, so that 

1184
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,900
people can work. 
Well, effectively in that 

1185
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,100
overall system. 
The hardest thing for me as a 

1186
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:32,600
CTO and 26 is everything was 
changing and my role specifics, 

1187
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,900
probably change about six or 
seven times throughout that 

1188
00:52:34,900 --> 00:52:36,800
Journey. 
Very early on, I was deep into 

1189
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:39,600
our sort of system architecture,
really trying to understand how 

1190
00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:43,600
our teams were building things. 
But as I grew, and hired people 

1191
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,900
in to take care of certain, In 
areas, then I felt I could step 

1192
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:48,000
back. 
Obviously. 

1193
00:52:48,000 --> 00:52:51,200
I want to dive in to get some 
confidence every so often if 

1194
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:53,500
everything's running smoothly. 
So once again, that lack of 

1195
00:52:53,500 --> 00:52:56,400
problems, then I can think about
different types of challenges. 

1196
00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:58,800
And what's the next most 
valuable thing. 

1197
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:03,200
I can focus on that can unleash 
more or multiply more of the 

1198
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:05,600
people that we have or unleash 
more value to the business. 

1199
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:08,800
I saw one of the blog post that 
you wrote few years back. 

1200
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,900
Probably, or even one or two 
years ago is about Target. 

1201
00:53:11,900 --> 00:53:14,400
Operating model. 
I think it's very interesting, 

1202
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,000
right? 
Up and the framework how it 

1203
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:17,300
works. 
Would you be able to share? 

1204
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:20,300
What is a Tom and how do you 
actually use it? 

1205
00:53:20,500 --> 00:53:25,000
So the purpose of the Tom is to 
be purposeful in organizational 

1206
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:26,900
design. 
The essence of it is to be 

1207
00:53:26,900 --> 00:53:30,700
explicit to be transparent 
around watching organization. 

1208
00:53:30,700 --> 00:53:33,500
Looks like and I talked about it
in the context of necessarily 

1209
00:53:33,500 --> 00:53:36,200
the tech organization, but you 
could use this concept as well. 

1210
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:38,300
If you're a CEO and you're 
thinking about the overall 

1211
00:53:38,300 --> 00:53:41,200
organization, as I was, 
describing our journey going for

1212
00:53:41,200 --> 00:53:44,200
a fifty to three hundred fifty 
over two and a half years. 

1213
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,200
A lot of Things need to change 
along that way. 

1214
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,300
And so I knew that early on, I 
wanted to be intentional about 

1215
00:53:49,300 --> 00:53:51,900
how we did that, and that was 
the purpose of introducing, this

1216
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:53,900
target operating model when we 
were 50. 

1217
00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:56,300
And then I said, in the next 
year, we're going to go to about

1218
00:53:56,300 --> 00:53:58,700
150 people. 
But this means that a lot of 

1219
00:53:58,700 --> 00:54:01,700
things going to break. 
And so here is what I think is a

1220
00:54:01,707 --> 00:54:06,100
good structure that will help us
scale to this next size or 

1221
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:07,600
scale. 
So, that's the idea. 

1222
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,700
It's the target. 
So where would we like to be? 

1223
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,000
And it helps people move, and 
understand that the goal there 

1224
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,000
is it's not supposed to replace.
Product road maps will technical

1225
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:19,600
roadmap, so it's about the how 
we work together the structures 

1226
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:21,800
of how we communicate or areas 
of ownership. 

1227
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,400
So that's the operating side of 
the target operating model. 

1228
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,300
It's a model. 
So it's not a perfect 

1229
00:54:27,300 --> 00:54:30,400
representation of reality 
because things will never be 

1230
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:34,200
perfectly a defined people don't
fit into boxes, but it's really 

1231
00:54:34,200 --> 00:54:37,100
a tool to have conversations 
around as an example. 

1232
00:54:37,100 --> 00:54:39,000
When I first introduced the 
target operating model. 

1233
00:54:39,000 --> 00:54:42,300
We were moving from a couple of 
product teams, too many 

1234
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:44,300
different product teams. 
One of the things I wanted to 

1235
00:54:44,300 --> 00:54:46,000
do. 
Ooh, was introduced in entering 

1236
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:49,700
manager role and you find that 
role that was going to be new 

1237
00:54:49,700 --> 00:54:52,500
because we had tech leads, and 
some of the responsibilities 

1238
00:54:52,500 --> 00:54:55,200
would shift. 
So tech leads were responsible 

1239
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,100
for people management. 
I would argue that some of our 

1240
00:54:58,107 --> 00:55:01,100
tech leads weren't the strongest
at people management and they'd 

1241
00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:03,200
often preferred technicals 
topics. 

1242
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,200
And so that was one of the areas
that came up as I was observing.

1243
00:55:06,200 --> 00:55:08,700
The environment is that we 
didn't have a lot of skill or 

1244
00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:12,500
capability or maybe time to 
focus on actually building High 

1245
00:55:12,500 --> 00:55:14,500
performing teams and actually 
building in. 

1246
00:55:14,700 --> 00:55:16,300
Visuals. 
So that their team would be 

1247
00:55:16,300 --> 00:55:19,200
stronger when I introduced the 
entering manager role where I 

1248
00:55:19,207 --> 00:55:21,900
wanted to introduce a little bit
more of a team focused 

1249
00:55:21,900 --> 00:55:24,300
engineering manager role and the
goal would be that they would 

1250
00:55:24,300 --> 00:55:26,700
work with tech leads. 
So they didn't have to worry 

1251
00:55:26,700 --> 00:55:29,200
about the technical Direction. 
They would delegate and work and

1252
00:55:29,200 --> 00:55:32,200
partner with the tech lead, but 
then somebody would be focused 

1253
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,300
on building a high performing, 
team building, good team, 

1254
00:55:35,300 --> 00:55:39,000
processes working agreements, 
making sure that individuals got

1255
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:42,400
good one to ones had growth 
plans and how that all fits 

1256
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,000
together as well. 
That's an example of of in the 

1257
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,100
Target operating model of saying
okay, we're going to have these 

1258
00:55:47,100 --> 00:55:50,100
teams and we don't have all of 
these teams today and we don't 

1259
00:55:50,100 --> 00:55:52,200
have all of these people, but 
we're going to have these 

1260
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,700
nominal teams with these roles 
and here's how they will all fit

1261
00:55:55,700 --> 00:55:57,300
together. 
One of the other roles that I 

1262
00:55:57,300 --> 00:56:00,100
started to introduce was also 
the director of software 

1263
00:56:00,100 --> 00:56:02,900
engineering when I came in. 
I inherited I think it was 

1264
00:56:02,900 --> 00:56:06,100
something like 12 direct reports
and I Knew by the time that I 

1265
00:56:06,107 --> 00:56:09,300
was hiring, I was going to end 
up with probably about 17 or 18.

1266
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:11,400
I was like, this is impossible. 
I promised everyone. 

1267
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:14,000
I would give her an at least 
half an hour, every Fortnight of

1268
00:56:14,000 --> 00:56:16,500
one-to-one time. 
Which I did for the entirety. 

1269
00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:19,900
But once again, the things that 
were few or one stage will break

1270
00:56:19,900 --> 00:56:22,300
down at a certain scale, and 
that's why I got the director of

1271
00:56:22,300 --> 00:56:25,600
software engineering in is that 
injury managers will report to 

1272
00:56:25,700 --> 00:56:27,800
director of software 
engineering, and then tech leads

1273
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:29,300
at the time would report in to 
me. 

1274
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:32,100
And then that was enough to get 
us to the next stage. 

1275
00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:34,100
That was the basis for our 
current plan. 

1276
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,400
It was the basis for a whole 
organization to really come 

1277
00:56:36,400 --> 00:56:38,300
together. 
We would naturally take feedback

1278
00:56:38,300 --> 00:56:41,300
as things were evolving to see 
how things were improving as our

1279
00:56:41,300 --> 00:56:43,400
organization got bigger. 
Naturally. 

1280
00:56:43,400 --> 00:56:46,600
The model starts to maybe Break 
down or you start to say, okay. 

1281
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,200
We're noticing different 
problems. 

1282
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,000
When you have at that time, we 
had probably like 12 or 15 

1283
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,800
different product teams. 
You then needed a way of 

1284
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,200
thinking a bit more conceptually
about, not just lots and lots of

1285
00:56:56,207 --> 00:56:59,900
teams but maybe a product area 
with lots of teams within that 

1286
00:56:59,900 --> 00:57:02,800
product area that then led to 
another evolution in our Target 

1287
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,500
operating model, where we 
introduce another constructs 

1288
00:57:05,500 --> 00:57:08,400
that solve problems that we had.
Which was how do you think about

1289
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,200
the overall organization without
having to go to every single 

1290
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:12,900
team? 
And so we decided to have what 

1291
00:57:12,900 --> 00:57:16,200
we call a product groups which 
were Like many areas and each 

1292
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,100
group would have a series of 
teams in it. 

1293
00:57:18,100 --> 00:57:20,300
If you are new to the business, 
you don't have to worry about 

1294
00:57:20,300 --> 00:57:22,900
how teams were broken down and 
say payments area. 

1295
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:24,700
There was just a product group 
of payment stuff. 

1296
00:57:24,700 --> 00:57:26,800
And if you interacted with them,
of course, you would want to 

1297
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,600
understand which team is 
responsible for what, but for 

1298
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:32,700
most Simplicity you didn't have 
to worry about that unless you 

1299
00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:35,400
had to be a lot more involved. 
So the target operating model 

1300
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,300
and we went through three 
iterations, when I was there and

1301
00:57:38,300 --> 00:57:41,000
the goal there was really once 
again to help us Orient as an 

1302
00:57:41,008 --> 00:57:44,500
organization about how we work. 
So we didn't just say when 

1303
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,700
Adopting Spotify, how they work?
Because we have different 

1304
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:49,200
problems. 
We had different problems at 

1305
00:57:49,207 --> 00:57:53,300
different stages and the target 
operating model was a way of 

1306
00:57:53,300 --> 00:57:56,000
creating common understanding 
around new roles 

1307
00:57:56,000 --> 00:57:58,400
responsibilities and how they 
all work together. 

1308
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:01,100
So towards the end. 
You also evolved in terms of 

1309
00:58:01,100 --> 00:58:03,500
role as Royal from CTO. 
You become like Chief 

1310
00:58:03,500 --> 00:58:06,000
scientists. 
I haven't heard a lot about 

1311
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:07,900
Chief scientist role in a 
start-up. 

1312
00:58:07,900 --> 00:58:09,900
Can you share with us? 
What is the chief scientist 

1313
00:58:09,900 --> 00:58:12,000
Rule? 
And what made you transform to 

1314
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:14,200
become this role? 
So, once again, I think it comes

1315
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:17,100
down to You that thinking about 
what you do thinking about, what

1316
00:58:17,100 --> 00:58:20,500
the business needs where your 
skills capabilities interests 

1317
00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:23,300
are and what brings out forward.
The reason I created this role 

1318
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:27,400
in stepped into this role is as 
we all sort of growing the role 

1319
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:29,700
of what they needed from a CTO 
was a little bit more 

1320
00:58:29,700 --> 00:58:32,300
operational. 
This is really about keeping 

1321
00:58:32,300 --> 00:58:34,400
delivery going with a product 
roadmap. 

1322
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:36,700
It was a lot more about metrics 
and Reporting. 

1323
00:58:36,700 --> 00:58:38,700
And that's not really 
interesting for me. 

1324
00:58:38,700 --> 00:58:41,400
It's not something that I enjoy 
doing a can do it, but it's not 

1325
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:43,800
something that energizes me. 
And the thing that really drives

1326
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:45,800
me was growing. 
Showing other people in the 

1327
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:49,100
business, in our technical team 
and also seeing what's 

1328
00:58:49,100 --> 00:58:51,100
interesting there, an amplifier 
map. 

1329
00:58:51,100 --> 00:58:54,100
And so that's why I think about 
this Chief scientist role is. 

1330
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,900
It's about going through 
organization and sometimes it 

1331
00:58:56,900 --> 00:58:59,200
might be just working with a 
team for a bit to say. 

1332
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:01,400
Hey, that's an interesting 
service that you're building 

1333
00:59:01,400 --> 00:59:03,500
here. 
Does other people in our 

1334
00:59:03,500 --> 00:59:05,600
business know about this, we 
should talk more about this 

1335
00:59:05,600 --> 00:59:08,000
because this is actually 
something that can amplify that 

1336
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:09,600
I know other teams have problems
with. 

1337
00:59:09,700 --> 00:59:13,000
It's like going through and 
seeing ways that you can amplify

1338
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:14,400
and spread knowledge across 
that. 

1339
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:18,400
So scientist in the way that one
maybe observes a system and then

1340
00:59:18,400 --> 00:59:22,300
tries to maybe design 
experiments or hypotheses from 

1341
00:59:22,300 --> 00:59:25,000
observing that system and then 
try to improve that. 

1342
00:59:25,000 --> 00:59:27,100
During that time. 
I did a lot of mentoring, 

1343
00:59:27,100 --> 00:59:30,600
helping a lot of people grow, a 
lot of knowledge exchange around

1344
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:32,900
what's actually going on. 
And so, it's less attached to 

1345
00:59:32,900 --> 00:59:35,300
the operational side of the 
business, which is the phase of 

1346
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:37,600
where we were at. 
And it wasn't so interesting for

1347
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,100
me from that side. 
Before we move on to the last 

1348
00:59:40,100 --> 00:59:42,500
question. 
Any other resources are probably

1349
00:59:42,500 --> 00:59:44,400
tips for those aspiring 
technically. 

1350
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:47,100
Leaders or season technical 
leaders out there. 

1351
00:59:47,100 --> 00:59:50,700
What can they learn from? 
Or where do they have to go to 

1352
00:59:50,700 --> 00:59:53,700
in order to level up themselves?
So I'm going to do a bit of 

1353
00:59:53,700 --> 00:59:56,000
self-promotion here. 
There's a level up newsletter 

1354
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:58,300
that I actually run. 
It's a Weekly Newsletter. 

1355
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:01,500
Let's level up dot patch, quiet 
calm and it's a leadership 

1356
01:00:01,500 --> 01:00:04,400
medical leadership newsletter 
that focuses on leadership 

1357
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,800
topics technical topics and 
organization process topics. 

1358
01:00:07,900 --> 01:00:10,000
So three areas, I think all 
technical leaders should think 

1359
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,900
about regardless of what level 
that you're at an organization, 

1360
01:00:12,900 --> 01:00:15,700
I send out weekly that's 
definitely You can sign up for, 

1361
01:00:15,700 --> 01:00:18,200
there's a lot of great material 
out there. 

1362
01:00:18,200 --> 01:00:21,200
So even if you just Google for 
things, you'll find things up up

1363
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:24,400
on YouTube or there's a lot more
websites that are now producing 

1364
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,400
content in terms of books and 
things like that is endless 

1365
01:00:27,400 --> 01:00:29,300
books that you can list out. 
Actually. 

1366
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:32,200
I just publish a blog post 
called book recommendations by 

1367
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:35,400
engineering leaders, which I 
think Henry like to later and 

1368
01:00:35,500 --> 01:00:38,500
that links off to like tons of 
books where people can find out 

1369
01:00:38,500 --> 01:00:41,700
more about technical leadership 
or management type of topics. 

1370
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:44,900
Thanks for sharing that do 
subscribe, everyone to The level

1371
01:00:44,900 --> 01:00:47,100
up newsletter. 
I'm one of them every week. 

1372
01:00:47,100 --> 01:00:50,500
We will get a lot of articles 
that pep found interesting. 

1373
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:52,300
I don't know how you curate all 
this. 

1374
01:00:52,700 --> 01:00:55,500
It seems like a lot of time 
reading Twitter's reading the 

1375
01:00:55,500 --> 01:00:57,700
internet, medium blocks, or 
whatever blocks that you can 

1376
01:00:57,700 --> 01:00:59,300
find. 
So it seems like a lot of 

1377
01:00:59,300 --> 01:01:01,800
curation being done very 
thoughtful as well. 

1378
01:01:01,900 --> 01:01:04,200
I'm sure that if you subscribe 
you will learn a lot from the 

1379
01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:06,600
newsletter as well. 
So Pat, thank you so much for 

1380
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,400
your time as usual Norman this 
technology, you know episode I 

1381
01:01:10,400 --> 01:01:13,600
would like to ask the guests to 
share their three technical 

1382
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:16,300
leadership. 
Would you be able to share your 

1383
01:01:16,300 --> 01:01:19,000
technical leadership system? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1384
01:01:19,100 --> 01:01:22,400
I think tip one is if you are 
going on this journey or 

1385
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:24,500
thinking about going this 
journey, you have to make that 

1386
01:01:24,500 --> 01:01:27,900
shift from maker to multiplier. 
It's not easy and you'll fall 

1387
01:01:27,900 --> 01:01:31,000
into habits, making that 
mindset, shift is a key to being

1388
01:01:31,000 --> 01:01:33,300
effective. 
Sometimes you'll move between 

1389
01:01:33,300 --> 01:01:34,900
them because they're 
technically, you're probably 

1390
01:01:34,900 --> 01:01:36,400
gonna be writing some code at 
some point. 

1391
01:01:36,400 --> 01:01:39,300
So you'll still be creating, but
the value that you produce is 

1392
01:01:39,300 --> 01:01:41,200
really much in that multiplier 
side. 

1393
01:01:41,300 --> 01:01:43,500
So, focus on that. 
Second tip is. 

1394
01:01:43,500 --> 01:01:45,900
I talked about what Got you 
here, won't get you there. 

1395
01:01:45,900 --> 01:01:49,100
The skills that made you 
successful, as a maker aren't 

1396
01:01:49,100 --> 01:01:52,100
necessarily the skills that will
prepare you for being a leader. 

1397
01:01:52,100 --> 01:01:54,200
So if you're thinking about 
this, you're actually in a great

1398
01:01:54,200 --> 01:01:56,300
place because you're not yet, 
accountable for it. 

1399
01:01:56,300 --> 01:01:58,900
They can practice developing 
these skills, learn more about 

1400
01:01:58,900 --> 01:02:02,200
these and then find out ways to 
practice this safely before you 

1401
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,700
suddenly find yourself having to
use these skills, understand the

1402
01:02:05,700 --> 01:02:09,100
leadership skills, understand 
broader system and architecture 

1403
01:02:09,100 --> 01:02:11,800
skills things that are bigger 
than maybe, what you might 

1404
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,700
encounter in your wardrobe. 
If you're working as an 

1405
01:02:13,700 --> 01:02:17,200
engineer. 
Step 2 tip 3 would be to find 

1406
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,500
people that have done this role 
before that you're interested 

1407
01:02:19,500 --> 01:02:21,000
in. 
I think talking to people 

1408
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:23,800
reading about people's stories 
is really great way of learning 

1409
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:27,500
from each other when things that
I really appreciate. 

1410
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:29,400
And you touch upon this because 
I've been doing this for 10 

1411
01:02:29,400 --> 01:02:30,900
years, is that you never really 
done. 

1412
01:02:30,900 --> 01:02:33,700
There's no perfect single way of
doing something. 

1413
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:36,100
You can always learn something 
from somebody else. 

1414
01:02:36,100 --> 01:02:38,800
Some interesting Insight, some 
interesting anecdote. 

1415
01:02:38,800 --> 01:02:41,200
And if you start to talk to 
people, you'll start to build 

1416
01:02:41,200 --> 01:02:43,500
your toolkit is how I often 
describe it. 

1417
01:02:43,500 --> 01:02:46,300
It's like the bottomless bag, 
you can keep adding more things 

1418
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:48,100
your toolkit because it never 
gets full. 

1419
01:02:48,100 --> 01:02:50,400
You can always learn something 
about how other people do it. 

1420
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:52,600
It doesn't mean it's right or 
wrong, but it's something that 

1421
01:02:52,600 --> 01:02:55,400
gives you more breaths to draw 
upon when you're in a different 

1422
01:02:55,400 --> 01:02:57,700
situation and it can give you a 
different Insight. 

1423
01:02:57,700 --> 01:03:00,500
So they would be my three tips. 
Thank you for sharing that. 

1424
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:02,800
I'm sure your level up in your 
selected, as one of those 

1425
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:04,000
toolkit. 
You can find. 

1426
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:05,600
It keeps growing and growing 
every week. 

1427
01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:07,200
So thank you, Pat Kwa for your 
time. 

1428
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,300
I learned a lot myself and I am 
sure all the audience here will 

1429
01:03:10,300 --> 01:03:12,600
learn a lot from your experience
and your knowledge as well. 

1430
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:14,400
And for those of you who are 
interested. 

1431
01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:17,900
Sign up with petrol on Tech lead
Academy and Tech lead workshops 

1432
01:03:17,900 --> 01:03:20,000
are provide the links later on. 
Thank you Pat. 

1433
01:03:20,000 --> 01:03:22,100
Why and hope to see you again in
future episode. 

1434
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:24,000
Thanks very much for having me. 
It was being a pleasure. 

1435
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,800
Thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1436
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:29,300
episode. 
If you highly enjoy it, please 

1437
01:03:29,300 --> 01:03:31,800
share it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

1438
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,400
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

1439
01:03:34,700 --> 01:03:37,700
And if you're new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

1440
01:03:37,700 --> 01:03:40,000
and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

1441
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:43,100
It really helps me a lot. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1442
01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:46,400
technique Journal episode. 
Code, and until then, goodbye.