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If you're a gymnast and if you 
are good in multiple things, 

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then you have a lot of options. 
You are a lot of career paths to

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choose from today. 
I don't think it matters to be 

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an expert in just one thing. 
I don't think it matters as much

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00:00:11,500 --> 00:00:13,800
as you used to be. 
So if you are good at few 

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things, even if you're not an 
expert in just one thing, but 

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good at few things. 
I think that is still quite 

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valuable. 
I found it quite advantageous 

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because I have multiple paths to
choose from. 

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I always have multiple options. 
Even if I look for a job. 

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I have multiple options. 
I could take because you also 

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gathered this experience in 
this. 

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Multiple things. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya Barragan.
And you're listening to the 

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00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,600
tekhelet journal. 
The show will be bringing you 

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00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:48,000
the greatest technical leaders 
practitioners and thought 

17
00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:51,400
leaders in the industry to 
discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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00:01:07,500 --> 00:01:09,800
Hello, everyone. 
I hope you're doing great today.

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It is really my pleasure to be 
back here again with another new

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episode of the package, you know
podcast. 

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Thank you for taking your time 
tuning in and listening to this 

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If this is your first time 

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enjoying this podcast and love 

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at technology? 

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Not Dev slash Patron and support
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great episode, every week, every
now and then in the tech 

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industry. 
We often hear about the debate 

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between becoming a polyglot 
developer versus a specialist 

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developer, or Technologies. 
And this kind of debate 

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sometimes becomes a source of 
confusion, especially for people

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who are about to or just 
starting out in the tech 

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industry. 
When I started my career. 

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Career back then it was also a 
similar problem. 

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Although the technology choices 
and languages were much lesser 

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back. 
Then my guest for today's 

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episode is deep with such either
Run. 

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Deep Blue is a polyglot 
developer and a senior developer

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00:02:20,900 --> 00:02:23,400
advocate for devops a table 
data. 

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00:02:24,100 --> 00:02:27,100
I'm inviting the boot to hear 
some perspectives from a 

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polyglot developer and someone 
who has successfully done it for

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00:02:30,500 --> 00:02:35,300
quite some time in this episode 
Deepu shared why he consciously 

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becomes Polyglot and generalist 
developer. 

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He emphasized, the importance of
knowing more than one thing, be 

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00:02:42,100 --> 00:02:45,100
it programming, languages 
Frameworks or tax tax. 

52
00:02:45,400 --> 00:02:48,200
In the current rapidly changing 
technology industry. 

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When every week or month, new 
things are being invented and 

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00:02:51,900 --> 00:02:57,100
the small things for us to learn
Deepu also gave practical tips 

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00:02:57,100 --> 00:03:00,400
for new Engineers who are 
starting out their career and 

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00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:03,800
shared his technique to learn 
new stuffs, including new 

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00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,300
programming languages by Being 
personal indexes. 

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I'm sure this technique may 
resonate with a lot of us and it

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00:03:11,500 --> 00:03:14,800
is an effective technique that I
frequently use for myself. 

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00:03:15,500 --> 00:03:18,900
Our conversation, then moved on 
to discuss about the current 

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00:03:18,900 --> 00:03:22,200
interview practices Trend. 
And why do people thinks it is 

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broken and needs to change, 
especially to make it more 

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00:03:26,300 --> 00:03:30,200
inclusive and less biased 
towards the end Depot. 

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Share about developer 
experience. 

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A topic that he is highly 
passionate about on why it is 

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now, Becoming more important to 
have a good developer experience

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and he shared some golden tips 
on how we can build a good 

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developer experience. 
I enjoyed my conversation with 

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Deepu learning, his perspective 
on being a polyglot and 

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generalist developer. 
And his insightful tips for 

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00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:54,400
building a good developer 
experience. 

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00:03:54,900 --> 00:03:57,900
And if you also liked this 
episode, please leave a rating 

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00:03:57,900 --> 00:04:01,700
and review on your podcast app 
and share some comments on the 

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00:04:01,700 --> 00:04:06,200
social media on what you enjoy 
from this episode, your reviews 

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00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:09,100
and comments are one of the best
ways to help me spread this 

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00:04:09,100 --> 00:04:12,400
podcast to more people. 
And it is my hope that they can 

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also benefit from all the In 
this podcast. 

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00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,899
So let's get our episode started
right after our sponsor message.

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00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:49,600
Hey everyone, welcome back to 
another episode of the tekhelet 

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journal. 
Today. 

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I have with me, a guest named 
Depot. 

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Sajida, run. 
He's actually a developer 

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Advocate at akka. 
Akka is like a product for 

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security single sign-on and 
things like that. 

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Today. 
The pool has a gladly joined 

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this podcast to share his 
experience. 

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So we'll be talking a lot about 
developer experience, developer 

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advocacy, and a few things about
him personally as well. 

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For example, being polyglot 
developers, and things like 

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that. 
So, welcome to the show. 

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Of the pool looking forward for 
this conversation. 

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Yeah. 
Hey, thank you Henry. 

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Thank you for the introduction. 
Happy. 

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I'm like to be deeper maybe in 
the beginning. 

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For people who don't know you 
yet. 

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Can you introduce yourself? 
Maybe sharing about your 

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highlights of turning points in 
your career? 

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Yeah. 
Sure. 

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I think I had a pretty 
interesting career path. 

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Non-standard. 
I would say probably not that 

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00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:36,800
much these days. 
I'm meeting a lot of people who 

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00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:39,300
had similar path cell, but at 
least, I thought it was 

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00:05:39,300 --> 00:05:41,700
non-standard because I started 
out as electrical and 

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electronics engineer. 
That's what I studied in 

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00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,500
college. 
Which I was quite fascinated 

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00:05:45,500 --> 00:05:48,200
with the Robotics. 
And I really wanted to become a 

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00:05:48,300 --> 00:05:50,600
robotics engineer or an 
astronomer. 

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This is the path that I saw for 
myself when I was in high school

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or when I was in college. 
I was like, okay, either Astro, 

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physics, astronomy or 
properties. 

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But, yeah, seems like the 
universe had different plans for

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me. 
I think, back in India, when I 

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was finishing my college. 
It was also the time of the 

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decision, the 2008 recession. 
So, jobs are not that many to be

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found, especially in robotics 
that was becoming impossible to 

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find. 
That point I was like, okay. 

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I need to pay the bills to 
downloads to be repaid. 

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Okay, I need a job. 
Seems like it companies are 

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still highly clock. 
So why not? 

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I just give it a try. 
I think that a consultancy was 

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one of the humongous. 
It companies in India, which 

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hires like in the hundreds of 
thousands every year so they 

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were hiring in my college and I 
was like, okay, I'm going to 

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give this a shot. 
So I tried and somehow I did it.

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I was surprised. 
I don't know anything about 

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programming unless you count a 
little bit of Flash and actions 

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to that. 
I have done in order to create 

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some 3D stuff for random things.
So they started actually started

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learning programming at their 
training. 

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They had like a six months 
bootcamp Aid of thing. 

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So I started learning doctor 
scheme. 

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That is a programming language. 
Actually, seriously started to 

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look I did some C++ before that.
I learned a little bit of C++, 

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but that was mostly to help my 
girlfriend bank. 

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So how was it actually 
interested in learning that I 

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00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:07,700
actually started paying 
attention when they are teaching

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dr. 
Scheme, and I figured hey, seems

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00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:12,500
like I'm good at programming. 
So I was like, okay, this could 

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be an interesting career. 
And then Started working on Java

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projects. 
That was my first standard 

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language that is cutted work 
with. 

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Yeah. 
I started enjoying programming 

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as well. 
So I thought. 

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Okay. 
This is not bad. 

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This is nice. 
I quite enjoy programming. 

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And I like the challenges there.
I like the technology stuff. 

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So I made a career out of that. 
Yeah, you also worked in 

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00:07:30,707 --> 00:07:33,000
Singapore for five years. 
I know that you live in 

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00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:34,700
Singapore. 
So that was quite nice. 

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00:07:34,900 --> 00:07:36,400
It was again with Tata 
consultancy. 

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Then I moved to the Netherlands.
Joined start up here. 

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That is when I started going out
of my comfort zone of java 

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JavaScript and Started plunging 
into other languages widen, my 

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tech bandwidth or photo. 
Then I actually started liking 

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trying different languages doing
different things. 

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I figured that I get bored 
easily. 

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So that kind of helped me going.
So yeah, that was my career. 

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00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,100
So now I ended up by. 
Dr. I just joined recently 

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passed a developer Advocate from
a developer. 

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I plunged into the developer 
Advocate career path because I 

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also figured I enjoy doing 
multiple things like being a 

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developer, being a community 
person, you know, talking to 

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users talking to Community 
building communities, teaching 

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writing and all these things. 
So I think developer. 

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Advocacy is the only gold where 
I could do all these and get 

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00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,300
paid for that. 
So, that was obvious choice for 

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me. 
Thanks for sharing your story. 

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I think very interesting that 
you said in the beginning, you 

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did not come from a computer 
science background and then you 

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00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,299
have to learn programming 
languages along the way. 

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And in fact, looking at your 
current profile, your current 

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blog, for example, you associate
yourself as someone who can use 

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00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:43,900
multiple languages over people 
call polyglot. 

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A these days. 
So, it's very interesting. 

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Like, how did you achieve that? 
Because there are so many 

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developers who wants to be 
polyglot, but probably there are

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00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:54,900
challenges right learning, new 
languages, probably not so easy 

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00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:57,300
for some of them. 
So maybe we'll just go through 

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that journey together with you 
about being a polyglot 

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00:08:59,900 --> 00:09:01,800
developers. 
So, first of all, how do you 

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00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:04,900
actually overcome the challenge 
of learning multiple languages? 

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00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:06,300
Yeah. 
Before that. 

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00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:09,400
I think most people in Tech 
especially programmers. 

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00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,600
I think they're polyglot. 
It's just that we don't 

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00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,700
acknowledge it that way because 
I'm pretty sure, It will be hard

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00:09:14,700 --> 00:09:17,500
to find someone who only works 
in one language, right? 

195
00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:20,400
Every programmer in their career
path would have worked with at 

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00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,400
least two three languages. 
It's just that they're 

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00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:24,500
comfortable with one. 
And so they just call themselves

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00:09:24,500 --> 00:09:27,500
as a Java or JavaScript and 
cheer, but they would always end

199
00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,700
up working with fear. 
The things at least, like, some 

200
00:09:29,700 --> 00:09:31,500
scripting with some language or 
something like that. 

201
00:09:31,500 --> 00:09:34,300
So most of us do that, I think 
the only difference is I 

202
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,400
dominantly try to do that like 
consciously, try to keep 

203
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,600
switching languages and I don't 
have preferences in terms of, 

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00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,200
hey, this is the language, I 
would do everything it kind of 

205
00:09:43,208 --> 00:09:43,900
thing. 
I tried. 

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00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,200
Choose the language based on the
use case and or the purpose. 

207
00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,700
So I think that probably is the 
only different and I'm probably 

208
00:09:49,700 --> 00:09:52,200
comfortable with doing that. 
I know, I can be equally 

209
00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:54,100
productive in this language. 
So I think that's the only 

210
00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:55,700
difference. 
I don't think it's that 

211
00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:57,600
difficult. 
Of course, it takes a little bit

212
00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,600
getting used to, in the 
beginning, because when I 

213
00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:01,900
started out as a mission, I did 
a few languages in the 

214
00:10:01,908 --> 00:10:04,300
beginning, but I never use them 
frequently. 

215
00:10:04,300 --> 00:10:07,200
So only languages are frequently
used, where Java and JavaScript,

216
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:11,800
and then I started writing doing
coded go and Carla, and Ruby. 

217
00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:13,900
And these kind of things during 
stick too much. 

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00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,100
With the scholar do we? 
I did a lot with go and then I 

219
00:10:17,108 --> 00:10:20,700
started doing stuff with rust. 
So I figured, okay, I can do 

220
00:10:20,700 --> 00:10:23,400
multiple languages and I can 
pick up more languages easily. 

221
00:10:23,500 --> 00:10:24,800
Once they start doing more 
language. 

222
00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:26,200
So it's like a chain reaction. 
Right? 

223
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,000
So once I learned go, it was 
easy for me to pick up another 

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00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:31,100
language. 
And once I learned rest, then I 

225
00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:33,800
started looking into something 
for see shh, once you know 45 

226
00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:35,900
languages, it's quite easy 
because you start seeing 

227
00:10:35,900 --> 00:10:39,500
patterns, like if you know Java 
C sharp is quite easy to pick 

228
00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:40,700
up. 
It's quite similar. 

229
00:10:40,900 --> 00:10:43,200
All this modern languages. 
They have something or the other

230
00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,700
from the other and And all these
languages are copying each 

231
00:10:45,700 --> 00:10:47,100
other. 
They are getting features from 

232
00:10:47,100 --> 00:10:49,500
one to another. 
So now they are so homogeneous 

233
00:10:49,500 --> 00:10:51,900
that short likes learning 
something entirely from scratch.

234
00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:54,700
It's more like looking at a 
language and seeing, hey, okay, 

235
00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,600
how much of this is similar to 
the ones that I already know? 

236
00:10:57,700 --> 00:11:00,100
How much is new and what is the 
part that I need to learn? 

237
00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,200
So that's my Approach. 
My advice for people who would 

238
00:11:03,300 --> 00:11:06,100
like to be comfortable in 
multiple, languages would be to 

239
00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:09,200
learn the basic concepts of 
programming itself. 

240
00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:13,200
So be good in those like learn 
those properly, then learn the 

241
00:11:13,200 --> 00:11:15,300
language. 
Amanda, it's not syntax. 

242
00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:18,200
I never learn language. 
That's because I think now we 

243
00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:21,200
have enough tools and Technology
around us where we actually 

244
00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,500
don't have to buy her. 
A languages syntax. 

245
00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,400
Every IDE will help you with the
syntax. 

246
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,600
You don't have to learn, that's 
why I focus more on the 

247
00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,600
semantics and the concepts that 
the language of force. 

248
00:11:30,800 --> 00:11:32,200
For example, when I was learning
worst. 

249
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,700
I was more interested in 
learning about the unique memory

250
00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:38,400
management that rosters, and the
features that rust have, which 

251
00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:40,100
is not found in any other 
language aside. 

252
00:11:40,500 --> 00:11:43,100
So those are the areas I focused
on because for the other part, I

253
00:11:43,100 --> 00:11:45,000
don't have to learn about How to
write a for loop. 

254
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,200
It's for the syntax already for 
that's it. 

255
00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,500
Other than that, it's for. 
So those kind of things you can 

256
00:11:49,500 --> 00:11:52,500
just reuse, you just rely on 
your ID or syntax in the 

257
00:11:52,500 --> 00:11:54,700
beginning. 
It would be slightly steep 

258
00:11:54,700 --> 00:11:56,700
learning curve. 
But once you start doing that, 

259
00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:59,200
you will notice that of it's 
becoming easier and easier. 

260
00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:02,400
It's like practice, it becomes 
easier and after few languages, 

261
00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:04,600
I'm pretty sure you can pick up 
another language in a p. 

262
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:06,600
So thanks for sharing that 
tapes. 

263
00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:09,000
I like the way then you 
mentioned that focus on the 

264
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:12,300
language, semantics not syntax 
and also the base concept 

265
00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:15,500
programming, I think almost any 
Which would still apply except 

266
00:12:15,500 --> 00:12:18,900
maybe a few Paradigm difference,
but in the first place, do you 

267
00:12:18,900 --> 00:12:22,300
think that everyone should go 
into this polyglot mindset? 

268
00:12:22,300 --> 00:12:25,700
Because is it advantageous in 
your point of view that we have 

269
00:12:25,700 --> 00:12:27,800
to master few programming 
languages? 

270
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,200
Again? 
It would be hard to say that 

271
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,700
this is the girl, you know, 
Silver Bullet kind of thing. 

272
00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:36,400
But as a person who has been in 
the industry for over a decade 

273
00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,800
and we quite interested in 
technology Trends and someone 

274
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,000
who follow and write about 
technology Trends. 

275
00:12:42,000 --> 00:12:44,900
One thing I have observed is 
that until World is becoming 

276
00:12:44,900 --> 00:12:47,300
more and more digitalized and 
covid has helped fast. 

277
00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:50,500
And that world is digitalized 
and every company wants to be an

278
00:12:50,500 --> 00:12:53,300
IT company. 
It's unavoidable that future may

279
00:12:53,300 --> 00:12:55,200
be five years down the line or 
10 years down the line. 

280
00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:58,600
I key is already the biggest 
industry in terms of job market 

281
00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:00,100
and all those things. 
But it's going to keep on 

282
00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:02,300
expanding. 
There's going to be more rapid 

283
00:13:02,300 --> 00:13:05,300
Innovation than the amount of 
Innovations is going to double. 

284
00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,700
It's going to double and stone 
will go exponential way to be 

285
00:13:08,700 --> 00:13:10,900
hard to keep up with stuff 
first. 

286
00:13:10,900 --> 00:13:14,200
So if you are, someone who is 
only focusing on one thing, Like

287
00:13:14,200 --> 00:13:17,400
a language or a particular 
framework, it would be easy to 

288
00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:20,600
be in a position where we are, 
not requiring because you never 

289
00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,800
know when something new comes up
and destroys something, which is

290
00:13:23,800 --> 00:13:25,400
already there. 
I mean, we never expected 

291
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,700
something like Cuban. 
It is to be this widespread. 

292
00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:29,000
Right? 
Like, when we were doing 

293
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:30,800
Enterprise servers and these 
kind of things. 

294
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:34,000
So those kind of certain 
technological innovations, could

295
00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:36,300
wipe out something that you were
focusing on. 

296
00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:40,300
So if that happens and if you 
are not a generalist, then it 

297
00:13:40,300 --> 00:13:42,100
might be difficult for you to 
move on. 

298
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:45,000
Get adapted and find a new New 
job at these kind of things. 

299
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:47,500
I'm not saying it is impossible.
Of course, it would be possible 

300
00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:50,900
to learn something new and move,
but that would put you in a much

301
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:54,200
harder position and your options
would be much more constraint. 

302
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:57,200
But if you are a polyglot 
developer or a generalist, I'm 

303
00:13:57,200 --> 00:13:59,700
in general is all included. 
So if you are a generalist and 

304
00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:02,300
if you are good in multiple 
things, then you have a lot of 

305
00:14:02,300 --> 00:14:03,900
options. 
You are a lot of career paths to

306
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,300
choose from today. 
I don't think it matters to be 

307
00:14:07,300 --> 00:14:10,000
an expert in just one thing. 
I don't think it matters as much

308
00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:12,400
as you used to be. 
So if you are good at few 

309
00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,900
things, even if you're not Spot 
in just one thing, but good at 

310
00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:17,400
few things. 
I think that is still quite 

311
00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:19,800
valuable. 
I found it quite advantageous 

312
00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:21,800
because I have multiple paths to
choose from. 

313
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:24,600
I always have multiple options. 
Even if I look for a job. 

314
00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,100
I have multiple options. 
I could take because you also 

315
00:14:27,100 --> 00:14:30,200
gather this experience in these 
multiple things, but on the 

316
00:14:30,208 --> 00:14:32,800
other side, it's also not for 
everyone. 

317
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:36,900
I would say matches with my 
personality probably but doesn't

318
00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:38,900
mean that it would match with 
everyone, probably I have a 

319
00:14:38,908 --> 00:14:41,900
little bit of ADHD. 
So it goes well with this, but 

320
00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,400
probably not for everyone. 
So I can't just say That hey, 

321
00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,400
this is the way but this is also
a good way. 

322
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,100
It didn't used to be considered 
a good way because I know that 

323
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:51,400
when I started out my career 
everyone would give me advice 

324
00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:53,000
that. 
Hey, focus on one thing you 

325
00:14:53,100 --> 00:14:56,400
learn one language learn these 
Frameworks and be good at that. 

326
00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:59,000
Don't try to do everything that 
is wrong able to say. 

327
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:01,800
This is also a very valid 
career, but I know a lot of 

328
00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:04,800
people who are General is 
polyglots who are doing really 

329
00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,900
good. 
So if you think that this is 

330
00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:10,000
your cup of tea that this is the
things that you want to do, and 

331
00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:12,900
if you get bored easily of doing
one thing then, yeah, this is a 

332
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:16,100
perfectly valid. 
Thanks for mentioning about the 

333
00:15:16,100 --> 00:15:19,100
balance, between being focused 
on One Thing versus multiple 

334
00:15:19,100 --> 00:15:22,300
things, but for youngsters who 
just started a career and as you

335
00:15:22,300 --> 00:15:25,100
can tell in the technology 
industry, these days there are 

336
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:27,900
so many things not just in one 
programming languages, but they 

337
00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:30,700
are other Concepts like from 
infrastructure, Cloud 

338
00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:33,000
Frameworks, even devices and all
that. 

339
00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:36,500
So it seems like for people who 
just started, this can be really

340
00:15:36,500 --> 00:15:39,200
overwhelming, what really would 
be your advice. 

341
00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:40,800
Actually. 
I know, like for people like you

342
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,200
and me, we have been in the 
industry around for quite a 

343
00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,000
number of years. 
As we have been exposed to 

344
00:15:45,008 --> 00:15:47,300
multiple things, but what about 
for those youngsters? 

345
00:15:47,300 --> 00:15:50,300
Is it wise for them to start 
straight away with multiple 

346
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:52,400
things? 
Or is it just to focus on a few 

347
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,300
things in the beginning? 
Yeah. 

348
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:56,500
For someone starting out. 
I would say that the better 

349
00:15:56,500 --> 00:15:59,100
would be to go one by one 
because if you start doing 

350
00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:01,600
multiple things by the 
beginning, indeed would be 

351
00:16:01,600 --> 00:16:04,800
overwhelming and it will be hard
for you to get established in 

352
00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,000
the beginning. 
So in the beginning, I think it 

353
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,800
would be nice for people 
starting out to focus on one 

354
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,800
language or I would say don't 
focus on just one framework kind

355
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:14,600
of thing. 
That probably Don't be a smart 

356
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:16,700
choice, but at least take one 
language. 

357
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,300
Learn a few things in that 
language loan, few Frameworks or

358
00:16:19,308 --> 00:16:22,400
stuff in that language, get 
little bit established in that 

359
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,000
and then diversifies. 
So it should be like a tree, 

360
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:26,900
your learning, path. 
My opinion. 

361
00:16:26,900 --> 00:16:28,600
Should be like a tree start from
one point. 

362
00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,300
You just Branch out if you try 
to do everything in parallel, 

363
00:16:31,300 --> 00:16:33,700
then probably it might be harder
to focus. 

364
00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:35,600
It might be harder to establish 
in one thing. 

365
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:37,600
That's what I did. 
I just branched out. 

366
00:16:37,700 --> 00:16:40,200
That is what I do know, I don't 
try to learn two things at the 

367
00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,000
same time. 
They don't want once. 

368
00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:44,300
I'm okay with that. 
Then I try Something else. 

369
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,800
So I Branch out kind of thing. 
I think that's probably a 

370
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:49,900
smarter choice. 
I would say and especially if 

371
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:53,000
you're starting out if you start
with one language and a year 

372
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:55,400
down the line, if you think that
hey, probably, this was in the 

373
00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,200
best option, you still learned a
lot, like, in terms of Concepts 

374
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,300
and experience. 
You can apply that in another 

375
00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:02,700
thing. 
So you're not going to miss out 

376
00:17:02,700 --> 00:17:05,099
on anything. 
The important thing especially 

377
00:17:05,099 --> 00:17:07,700
for the trend that we are going 
in, and for the direction that 

378
00:17:07,700 --> 00:17:10,700
they are industry, is going in 
would be definitely to bet on at

379
00:17:10,700 --> 00:17:13,700
least two things. 
Not just one, you never know. 

380
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:16,200
I think some languages that we 
know that they are going to stay

381
00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:17,900
around for a while, like, 
JavaScript. 

382
00:17:17,900 --> 00:17:20,500
They're not going anywhere. 
They're going to be around for, 

383
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:23,200
at least another 10 years, but 
the newer ones, like, for 

384
00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,700
example, go, or these kind of 
things. 

385
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:29,000
It is quite widely, adopted and 
everything, but you never know 

386
00:17:29,000 --> 00:17:32,100
when that interest and that hype
train will die down. 

387
00:17:32,300 --> 00:17:35,100
So you don't want to put all 
your effort into something like 

388
00:17:35,100 --> 00:17:36,900
that. 
I would say, if you are starting

389
00:17:36,900 --> 00:17:40,700
out now, it would be nice to 
maybe start out with a very 

390
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:43,700
established language, like, 
Java, JavaScript, python. 

391
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,000
Down or something like that, 
which has a lot of Legacy also 

392
00:17:47,100 --> 00:17:50,300
because of that, is it safe to 
assume that it would be around 

393
00:17:50,300 --> 00:17:53,100
for another place another ticket
because it will be hard to get 

394
00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:55,300
rid of things, which are there 
for a long time. 

395
00:17:55,500 --> 00:17:58,100
So it would be safer to start 
with something like that because

396
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:01,300
you also have a huge ecosystem 
and Community to help you to 

397
00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:05,300
learn, then you can diversify 
into newer languages be up to 

398
00:18:05,300 --> 00:18:08,200
date with the new trend of Sir 
because I do believe modern 

399
00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:11,400
languages like rust especially 
are going to displays a lot of 

400
00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,700
these languages that has been 
around for a while. 

401
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,600
It may not happen overnight, but
there is already a momentum and 

402
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,000
it will happen at some point. 
There are going to be newer 

403
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,300
languages and with newer 
generation of programmers and 

404
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,100
Engineers coming out. 
It's going to be more and more 

405
00:18:25,100 --> 00:18:27,800
adopted and are going to 
displace those words, but you 

406
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:29,800
still have at least a decade. 
I've seen. 

407
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,000
So I know this next question 
might not be applicable for 

408
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,500
everyone. 
But can you share your normal 

409
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,200
flow? 
How do you learn new language? 

410
00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:39,600
Because you have been mastering 
a few languages. 

411
00:18:39,900 --> 00:18:41,800
So when you pick up a new one, 
what would you do? 

412
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:44,600
Maybe some tips for people who 
probably Bleep will find your 

413
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,100
way, is suitable for them. 
Yeah, definitely. 

414
00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:49,100
I don't know if this is like a 
proper way. 

415
00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:51,200
That would work for everyone. 
It's just something that works 

416
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,300
for me. 
So I don't know how far this can

417
00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:55,700
be generalized. 
But for me again, when I started

418
00:18:55,700 --> 00:18:57,400
off with Java and JavaScript 
that was different. 

419
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,800
But later when I started 
learning new languages, my 

420
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,100
Approach is always to First Take
the language and compare it with

421
00:19:03,100 --> 00:19:04,300
the languages. 
I already know. 

422
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:06,900
So when I started learning go, 
the first thing I did was 

423
00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:10,300
compare it with JavaScript and 
Java and see how much I can 

424
00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:12,400
reuse the knowledge. 
What are the things that are 

425
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:12,900
similar? 
Okay. 

426
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:15,000
These are similar, okay. 
Callbacks in both looks quite 

427
00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,400
similar like JavaScript, so I 
don't have to start from 

428
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,300
scratch. 
Already know how callbacks 

429
00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:21,100
works. 
I just need to know the syntax 

430
00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:23,300
of it. 
Maybe if there are rich cases or

431
00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:26,100
exceptional scenarios that 
worked out quite well for me 

432
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:29,200
because I figured, I could learn
things faster again. 

433
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:31,300
As I said, I don't focus on 
learning the syntax. 

434
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:32,900
I just focus on learning the 
concepts. 

435
00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:35,800
When I encounter a concept, I 
try to compare it with what I 

436
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:38,200
already know, then it's easy for
me to say. 

437
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:40,000
Okay. 
This is the difference for me. 

438
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,200
It gets ingrained faster. 
When I do that kind of 

439
00:19:42,208 --> 00:19:44,200
comparison and the more I do. 
Do that. 

440
00:19:44,200 --> 00:19:47,500
It becomes natural for me. 
For example, after 34 languages.

441
00:19:47,700 --> 00:19:50,800
When I started learning rust. 
I expected the learning curve to

442
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,000
be exponential because thrust as
a lot of advanced language 

443
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:57,600
features and it's known to have 
a very steep learning curve, but

444
00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,400
I didn't feel that way in the 
beginning. 

445
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,700
It was a bit overwhelming, 
especially some of the new 

446
00:20:01,700 --> 00:20:04,200
Concepts. 
But in a week, I was extremely 

447
00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:06,200
comfortable except for few 
advanced concepts. 

448
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:07,100
I was like, okay. 
Yeah. 

449
00:20:07,100 --> 00:20:09,400
This is familiar with doesn't 
seem hard and when I actually 

450
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,400
started building something 
Concrete in it, it was quite 

451
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,200
easy for me to get started. 
Apply my knowledge from other 

452
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:17,200
languages. 
Of course, there would be times 

453
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,600
when I have to look up specific 
thing in that language, but 

454
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:23,400
still all that Knowledge from 
the other languages did help me 

455
00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,400
because you could always think 
about, hey, how'd you do that 

456
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,400
language? 
Okay, let me compare how you do 

457
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:30,700
it in this language. 
Then you see patterns, for 

458
00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:33,500
example, if you're doing 
threading and rest, this is how 

459
00:20:33,500 --> 00:20:36,200
you do threading in Java. 
So, let's see how it differs 

460
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:37,600
from Russell. 
You don't know what, okay, you 

461
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,700
can do threading, much more 
nicely. 

462
00:20:39,700 --> 00:20:42,100
If you are using say, for 
example, share channels and 

463
00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:44,100
stuff like that. 
That's the way that I do. 

464
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:46,600
I don't know if it will work for
everyone just starting out. 

465
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,400
You probably might be harder 
because you might not have a lot

466
00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:50,500
of languages that you can 
compare. 

467
00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:52,700
With. 
Another thing I do is I learned 

468
00:20:52,700 --> 00:20:56,200
in the open, I try to learn in 
the open and I try to learn by 

469
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:58,600
teaching as well. 
So, for example, whenever I 

470
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,600
write a blog topic, I try to 
write about something that I'm 

471
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,800
not extremely good at. 
So, I take something which I 

472
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,000
know enough, but I am not an 
expert then the first thing is, 

473
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:09,300
okay. 
I need to write about this. 

474
00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:11,100
Make an outline and I'm like, 
okay. 

475
00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:12,100
These are the things. 
I know. 

476
00:21:12,100 --> 00:21:13,600
These are the things. 
I'm not really. 

477
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,300
Check out. 
These are the things that I need

478
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:17,600
to improve. 
Learn that first and then right 

479
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:20,800
about that, then I keep 
repeating and I keep repeating 

480
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,700
that analyst am satisfied with 
the content that I have produced

481
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,500
that kind of helps me learn 
ourselves. 

482
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:28,600
I think producing content is a 
very good way to learn ourselves

483
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,700
because that kind of pushes you 
to get the best content out of 

484
00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:33,900
what you don't know. 
Or doesn't know, especially if 

485
00:21:33,908 --> 00:21:35,900
you are trying to get out of 
something that you are not an 

486
00:21:35,900 --> 00:21:38,400
expert in then that forces you 
to learn new curve. 

487
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,900
And since you're writing about 
that, it gets end grain. 

488
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:43,200
So these are the things that 
kind of helps me long. 

489
00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:46,200
Thanks for sharing this one, 
common trick, like learning in 

490
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,700
the open writing about something
that you are not expert in. 

491
00:21:48,700 --> 00:21:51,200
Because lot of people have this 
misconception, that if you want 

492
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,600
to write something about a 
block, or maybe publish 

493
00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:55,600
something, you have to be good 
at it. 

494
00:21:55,700 --> 00:21:58,200
You want people to think that, 
okay, you're the expert, the 

495
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,600
other likes, and things like 
that, but actually sometimes is 

496
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:01,500
not true. 
Right? 

497
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:04,600
Thanks for sharing that tip so 
that you can also learn by doing

498
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:07,300
and Publishing. 
It openly, you do the research, 

499
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:10,200
you learn from the way and also 
people give comments. 

500
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:11,900
I think that's also something 
not to be. 

501
00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:14,900
Yeah. 
Would be if that critical 

502
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:17,900
comments for you to also grow. 
So you mentioned a couple of 

503
00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,900
things about using tools. 
This is I think also something 

504
00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:23,400
that cannot be missed because 
for example, tools are plenty 

505
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:27,400
these days, their IDs on the 
plate, maybe documentation. 

506
00:22:27,500 --> 00:22:30,300
Maybe you can share a little bit
on this because I know you have 

507
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:32,900
this concept about building a 
search index for yourself. 

508
00:22:32,900 --> 00:22:35,900
So maybe you can share. 
Yeah. 

509
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:37,700
Definitely. 
I'll talk about being a 

510
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:40,400
generalist because this ties 
back to that, at least, 

511
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,300
personally for me, the amount of
data that I can store in my 

512
00:22:43,300 --> 00:22:45,600
memory. 
He is limited not very good at 

513
00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:47,300
remembering stuff. 
I don't have a photographic 

514
00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:49,400
memory or anything. 
I'm quite absent-minded. 

515
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,800
I forget stuff a lot, but I 
figured what I was good at was 

516
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,200
making indexes so I could 
vaguely remember stuff but not 

517
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,500
in detail. 
So I build indexes. 

518
00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:02,400
That's how I'm also able to work
in many languages work in many 

519
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,700
different domains or keep 
switching from whatever language

520
00:23:05,700 --> 00:23:08,400
based things to develop. 
So, whatever, I'm extremely 

521
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,300
confident that I can get into 
any technical domain and I can 

522
00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:13,600
pick it up in a week and start 
writing about that stuff. 

523
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:15,700
Examples. 
They can pretend to be an expert

524
00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,200
in something in a week. 
So I don't try to memorize stuff

525
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,100
for. 
I don't try to become an expert 

526
00:23:21,100 --> 00:23:22,800
in something. 
I just try to index the. 

527
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,900
So if I come across something, 
if I come across a new tool or a

528
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:28,900
new feature in a language or 
like a new framework. 

529
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:33,200
I'm like, okay, this axis and I 
know what it relates to like a 

530
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,800
Cuban. 
It is tool for example, if I see

531
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,000
something like k3d, for example,
I'm like there is something like

532
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,400
a 3D. 
It is forgiving. 

533
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,500
It is and it does this. 
That's the end of it. 

534
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:43,000
That's how much I want to 
remember. 

535
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,100
I don't want. 
To know anything more than that.

536
00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:49,000
So I put that in the index and 
the next time when I have a need

537
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,500
for something like that, then I 
could look in my index. 

538
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,800
So that is when I go to Google 
or go to their documentation 

539
00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,600
site and I look, what is it 
exactly do and how to do it. 

540
00:23:57,700 --> 00:24:00,700
So that has helped me a lot. 
I honestly don't have any shame 

541
00:24:00,700 --> 00:24:04,400
in saying that I Google a lot. 
Most of us, I think everyone do 

542
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,300
that. 
And if you say that you don't do

543
00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:11,100
then probably I wouldn't trust. 
It is smarter to use all the 

544
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:14,600
tools that you have to be more 
productive than Try to do 

545
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:16,600
everything yourself for me. 
That is a smarter way. 

546
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:18,400
So if you have internet 
connection where you can look 

547
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:21,400
for stuff, what do you want to 
store that in your memory memory

548
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,400
is more precious data? 
Hard disks are cheaper. 

549
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:28,700
So now use your memory for more 
precious things and put, all 

550
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:32,100
these things in, let it out. 
We leave the land, which you can

551
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,600
look up anywhere. 
Anytime. 

552
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:37,100
I would say more people should 
just be open about that, so that

553
00:24:37,100 --> 00:24:39,700
especially people who start out,
they don't get overwhelmed or 

554
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:41,900
they don't think that. 
Hey, there is so much thing. 

555
00:24:41,900 --> 00:24:43,400
I need to learn. 
How am I going to learn all 

556
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:44,800
this? 
Then how am I going to put all 

557
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,800
this into use, only things, you 
should be good? 

558
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,200
At is your logical thinking and 
your problem-solving abilities. 

559
00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:52,700
You shouldn't be hired for being
fact. 

560
00:24:52,700 --> 00:24:55,000
Memorizer. 
You should be hired for being a 

561
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,900
problem. 
Solver and how you solve the 

562
00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:59,300
problem is up to you. 
It's nobody else's business. 

563
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,400
So that's also why I think I'm 
quite against the hiring 

564
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,400
practices in our industry. 
I write about that in my blog. 

565
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,400
I always reject interviews 
whenever they say, hey, there is

566
00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,200
a live coding part. 
Know if you are not convinced 

567
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,600
that I am good enough for you by
looking in my profile. 

568
00:25:13,900 --> 00:25:16,500
Talking to me then. 
Probably you're not good enough 

569
00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:18,400
to judge someone to his 
technical. 

570
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,200
Then I don't want to work there 
because that is not how I'm 

571
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,200
going to work. 
So if you want to evaluate me, 

572
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:24,300
then this is how you should 
arrive. 

573
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:26,700
It means not with the white 
boarding and live coding. 

574
00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:29,800
You can actually go to their 
because we know that interview 

575
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:31,500
sometimes is you can say it's 
broken. 

576
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:34,700
Sometimes the trend of the 
industry is going that way, plus

577
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:38,400
their new SAS products, like, 
hacker rank, or maybe whatever 

578
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,300
that is. 
Can you maybe elaborate? 

579
00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:42,900
Why do you think that interview 
process is broken? 

580
00:25:43,100 --> 00:25:46,600
Because it Seems like so many 
big tech companies startups and 

581
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:50,400
all that they seem to drill a 
lot in all these algorithms, but

582
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:52,500
boarding, maybe you can see a 
little bit more. 

583
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,400
I would say it's a toxic 
culture, especially from all 

584
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,500
these big companies, because, 
again, as I mentioned, it's not 

585
00:25:58,500 --> 00:26:00,500
realistic. 
Why can't you just give your 

586
00:26:00,500 --> 00:26:03,100
future employees? 
The same tools and the same 

587
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:05,900
environment that your current 
employees have because you want 

588
00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:07,900
them to work. 
That way if you want someone to 

589
00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:10,300
work in certain environment. 
Why don't you give the same 

590
00:26:10,300 --> 00:26:11,400
environment when you evaluate 
the? 

591
00:26:11,408 --> 00:26:14,800
Maybe they'll perform better. 
I have a In science, they even 

592
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,600
have to do something in front of
someone else, especially a 

593
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,500
stranger. 
And I'm pretty sure I have 

594
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,500
imposter syndrome because 
whenever someone suddenly comes 

595
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:25,800
behind me and if I'm writing a 
code then I just freeze. 

596
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,100
It's just an Society. 
There was a study from 

597
00:26:28,100 --> 00:26:30,900
University which also showed 
that these kind of interview 

598
00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:34,700
practices is more biased towards
women, especially they put the 

599
00:26:34,700 --> 00:26:37,800
same set of movement through 
live coding and coding in their 

600
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,500
comfortable environment and all 
of the performed much better 

601
00:26:40,500 --> 00:26:42,900
when they were in a comfortable 
environment with someone not 

602
00:26:42,900 --> 00:26:44,800
watching over them. 
So I think these kind of 

603
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,100
interview practices. 
They're quite old. 

604
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:50,800
They all come from maybe before 
we had all these tools and smart

605
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,400
IDs and stuff. 
It was probably from the time, 

606
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,200
when everyone who was doing 
computer science, was someone 

607
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,500
who did computer science, their 
University or from the time when

608
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:03,100
most of the work was writing, 
algorithms and stuff, but nobody

609
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:06,300
is writing algorithms every day.
These days if you're in some 

610
00:27:06,300 --> 00:27:09,500
sort of research role or some 
specific positions and maybe for

611
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:13,100
those positions, it's fine to do
that kind of interviews, but why

612
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:15,300
do you want? 
Drew someone about knowing 

613
00:27:15,300 --> 00:27:18,900
algorithms and being able to 
memorize and repeat something in

614
00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:20,800
a white board for building 
websites. 

615
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:24,300
So that's unrealistic. 
And it just puts hands it and 

616
00:27:24,300 --> 00:27:26,100
performance anxiety. 
And these kind of things in 

617
00:27:26,100 --> 00:27:29,000
people nowadays, at least, with 
the awareness of mental health 

618
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,000
and everything. 
It's a known fact that when you 

619
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,200
put someone under pressure, 
they're not going to perform 

620
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:35,200
better. 
That is like the worst myth. 

621
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,000
That if you put someone under 
pressure, they will perform 

622
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:38,200
better know. 
That's not the case. 

623
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,400
If you put someone into the 
pressure, they are would perform

624
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:42,200
worse. 
So why do you want to do that in

625
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:45,300
an interview whenever I was? 
As in this job searching faces. 

626
00:27:45,300 --> 00:27:46,300
First thing I would ask you. 
Okay. 

627
00:27:46,300 --> 00:27:48,100
What is your process? 
The process as these kind of red

628
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:49,800
flags? 
I'm like, no don't work in that 

629
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:50,800
company. 
Of course. 

630
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:53,000
I know that it's probably is not
something that everyone can do 

631
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,300
especially if you're desperate 
for a job or if you're starting 

632
00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:58,400
out, I could do that because I 
had a solid profile where I know

633
00:27:58,400 --> 00:27:59,700
that I would have multiple 
options. 

634
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:01,600
I could choose from, but on the 
other side. 

635
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,400
I know if you are just trying to
get a job. 

636
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:06,500
It might not be a realistic way 
to do reject interviews, but 

637
00:28:06,500 --> 00:28:08,100
that's a sad fact. 
That's why I think that our 

638
00:28:08,100 --> 00:28:10,800
industry as a whole should 
change there is this website 

639
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,200
called a white border where 
people write their This is about

640
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:16,800
these companies and there is an 
index of all the companies which

641
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,200
does this. 
And all the companies which 

642
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,600
doesn't do these. 
You can know if someone is 

643
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,800
technically good enough or not 
just by talking to them. 

644
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:25,900
If you are unable to do that, 
then probably the problem is on 

645
00:28:25,900 --> 00:28:27,400
your side. 
Not, not their style. 

646
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:29,900
If you are technically good, 
then you should be able to tell 

647
00:28:29,900 --> 00:28:32,000
if someone is technically good 
or not just by talking. 

648
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:35,700
So thanks for sharing this day, 
whiteboard, it me, I think is 

649
00:28:35,700 --> 00:28:38,700
interesting website. 
I haven't seen it before so 

650
00:28:38,700 --> 00:28:41,600
maybe I should check it out. 
But yeah, I agree sometimes, all

651
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,400
this interview practices seems 
to be in Lawrence by the big 

652
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:46,800
Tech Giants. 
Everyone's just seems to follow 

653
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,800
suit. 
But yeah, there are many ways of

654
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:50,400
how interviews can be done. 
Right? 

655
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:53,000
Maybe let's move on from this 
controversial topic. 

656
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,500
Hope you would think they have 
the right way of interviewing. 

657
00:28:56,700 --> 00:29:00,300
So you seem to have worked in a 
lot of developer experience set 

658
00:29:00,300 --> 00:29:02,100
up previously. 
You work in open source 

659
00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:04,700
projects. 
Now you are Developer Advocate 

660
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,200
and previously as well. 
You seem to have interesting 

661
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,500
ideas about developer experience
and you may be the first place 

662
00:29:10,500 --> 00:29:13,300
explain what is actually 
developer experience and why do 

663
00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:15,000
you think We should care about 
it. 

664
00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:18,500
Yeah, I think this view also, 
solidified, when I was working 

665
00:29:18,500 --> 00:29:21,200
in my previous company. 
I used to work for a DM baby. 

666
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,500
We're building out a developer 
experience team. 

667
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,500
So I was always interested in 
developer experience because of 

668
00:29:26,500 --> 00:29:29,400
my association with Jake 
hipster, which I call it with a 

669
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,700
few other awesome folks. 
We always used to care about how

670
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:35,800
the experience would be for our 
end users who are developers in 

671
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,400
my previous companies. 
Part of my job was also to think

672
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,100
about that. 
Like, we were building tools to 

673
00:29:40,100 --> 00:29:41,900
make that experience better for 
developers. 

674
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,700
So I think that experience, 
Ian's a solid effect that you 

675
00:29:44,700 --> 00:29:48,200
for me developer experience is 
extremely important in today's 

676
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:51,900
it world or even in the future 
when I T is going to be more and

677
00:29:51,900 --> 00:29:54,300
more widespread and every 
company is going to be 90 

678
00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:57,200
company and there's going to be 
more companies, building tools 

679
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,400
and services for developers. 
So developers are going to be 

680
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,000
like a huge Market or Market of 
user base, which has to be 

681
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:08,100
handled, slightly different from
General users user experience. 

682
00:30:08,100 --> 00:30:11,400
For developers is not exactly 
the same as user experience in 

683
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:12,900
general. 
So that's the takeaway. 

684
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,800
Similar to how user experience 
was looked at 10 years ago. 10 

685
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,500
years ago user experience was 
not something that you would 

686
00:30:19,500 --> 00:30:22,100
always Factor it when you're 
building an application. 

687
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:25,200
I have been in projects where 
user experience was not cared 

688
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:26,600
for at all. 
Ten years ago. 

689
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,400
Nobody would care about that. 
You explain in general in 

690
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,000
development teams was not that 
common 10 years ago, but now it 

691
00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,700
is unimaginable right now. 
If you're building a user facing

692
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:38,700
product and if you don't have 
proper ux folks in your team, 

693
00:30:38,700 --> 00:30:40,000
then people are going to laugh 
at you. 

694
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,100
People are going to be like, are
you even serious about building?

695
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,600
So that shift us? 
Happened in terms of user 

696
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:47,000
experience. 
People know the need for that. 

697
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,100
Everyone has realized how 
important user experiences for 

698
00:30:50,100 --> 00:30:52,900
success of your product. 
It is standardized user 

699
00:30:52,900 --> 00:30:54,400
experience is the must have 
them. 

700
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:57,300
I think the same transition has 
to happen for developer 

701
00:30:57,300 --> 00:31:00,400
experience because there are 
lots and lots of companies that 

702
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,200
are Building Services and tools 
for developers. 

703
00:31:02,300 --> 00:31:05,500
These companies have to treat 
developers as the primary users 

704
00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:07,300
and work towards their user 
experience. 

705
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:09,900
So it's slightly different from 
General user experience, right? 

706
00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,800
Because these are for technical 
products things that you might 

707
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,900
consider. 
It for normal user experience 

708
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,400
might not be applicable here. 
If you're building a CLI tool 

709
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:20,100
you are General. 
User experience guidelines might

710
00:31:20,100 --> 00:31:22,600
not be 100% applicable. 
It might be slightly different 

711
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,600
mean on a CLI people might want 
things differently. 

712
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,600
So you have to test for that. 
If you are building a service, 

713
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,100
that is consumed by developers. 
Then you'd have to think about 

714
00:31:31,100 --> 00:31:34,000
the experience of using your 
apis or the experience of using 

715
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,700
your SDK developer experience. 
Here would be the inverse of how

716
00:31:37,700 --> 00:31:39,400
annoying it is to use your 
product. 

717
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,700
I would say, I wrote about these
things in my blog. 

718
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,400
I recently wrote about what 
developed for Expediency is. 

719
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:45,900
And why it is important in 
detail. 

720
00:31:45,900 --> 00:31:48,000
I think I wrote about all these 
topics in my block. 

721
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:50,200
So I think that is the shift 
that needs to happen and 

722
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,200
developer experience in terms of
making sure developers using 

723
00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:55,900
your product are not annoyed. 
So the less I know it. 

724
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:57,800
They are the more happy. 
They're going to be the better 

725
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,700
developer experience. 
They are going to get and the 

726
00:31:59,700 --> 00:32:01,900
likely chances of them 
recommending the product to 

727
00:32:01,900 --> 00:32:04,700
their colleagues, or their 
friends or just spreading the 

728
00:32:04,700 --> 00:32:07,200
good word by word of mouth, 
which is quite important, right?

729
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,900
Especially in a developer 
circles. 

730
00:32:09,100 --> 00:32:13,000
It is quite easy to find people 
who are extremely opinionated, 

731
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:15,700
and, You would have seen that 
all of us in the ideal world 

732
00:32:15,700 --> 00:32:18,000
would have seen that when people
like a product are very 

733
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:20,000
opinionated about that, then 
they will different that 

734
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:21,700
product. 
It's not going to benefit them 

735
00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:24,000
in any way. 
We have this tribal mentality 

736
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,200
when it comes to all these 
things, right? 

737
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,300
Like if I like a language, I'm 
going to resent that. 

738
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,700
So that's going to happen. 
Why that happens is because 

739
00:32:29,700 --> 00:32:31,800
these products, they care about 
their developers and they have 

740
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:34,400
built that experience so that 
the people using the products 

741
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:38,200
have become so loyal, that they 
are ready to defend your product

742
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,700
to a stranger and they're ready 
to throw fight a stranger on the

743
00:32:40,708 --> 00:32:42,100
internet, to defend your 
product. 

744
00:32:42,100 --> 00:32:43,400
So that is the kind of 
developer. 

745
00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:45,100
Experience. 
You need to build if a company 

746
00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:46,300
is building products for 
developers. 

747
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,400
And if you are not going to take
care of them, then it's going to

748
00:32:48,408 --> 00:32:50,200
be very hard for you to be 
successful. 

749
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,700
Especially given developers are 
much more demanding audience. 

750
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:57,200
Then General users. 
I agree that developers can be 

751
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,700
more demanding and even more 
quirky. 

752
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:02,700
Sometimes they have no 
reservation for putting bad 

753
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:06,300
comments over the internet and 
all the forums, when you say a 

754
00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:08,800
good developer experience, or 
maybe even annoying developer 

755
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,300
experience. 
Can you give some tips for 

756
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,400
people who are building a picl 
eyes, all these Developers? 

757
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:16,300
Trick products and services. 
What will be your tips in order 

758
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:18,200
to ensure good developer 
experience? 

759
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:20,400
Yeah. 
So again, this is not something 

760
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,800
that is a silver bullet, right? 
This is not like the exhaustive 

761
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,100
list of things that you have to 
do. 

762
00:33:24,300 --> 00:33:27,500
This has to do a lot with 
context, the use case that 

763
00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:29,300
you're trying to solve the type 
of product. 

764
00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:30,900
So that means to be taken into 
account. 

765
00:33:31,100 --> 00:33:33,300
For example, if you're building 
apis, that's the product 

766
00:33:33,300 --> 00:33:35,800
consumed by developers. 
Then some of the things that 

767
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,900
should be taken care of, because
it's going to be annoying 

768
00:33:37,900 --> 00:33:40,500
otherwise, and if something is 
annoying, then that's not a good

769
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:44,000
developer experience. 
So I think sticking to highly 

770
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,700
adopted standards and 
conventions that something that 

771
00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:49,300
people Overlook because when you
are starting out, especially for

772
00:33:49,300 --> 00:33:53,900
startups, building stuff is easy
for teams to be Go Fancy and try

773
00:33:53,900 --> 00:33:56,200
to come out with something new 
and shiny. 

774
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,200
Like the own conventions. 
It might be okay if your APA is 

775
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,400
going to be the standard, but if
it is on use case or a domain 

776
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,700
that already exists, then maybe 
it's better to stick to 

777
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,500
conventions. 
I'm not saying copy someone 

778
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:10,300
else. 
I'm saying stick to standard 

779
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:13,100
conventions, for example, 
standard error, schemas when 

780
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:15,600
you're doing There are many 
standard conventions for the 

781
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:17,699
stick to standard APA 
guidelines. 

782
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:19,699
For example, stick to rest 
guidelines. 

783
00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:23,000
For example, these kind of 
things would be minor things. 

784
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:25,400
But the amount of impact it 
could have on developer 

785
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,400
experience. 
These huge, imagine me being a 

786
00:34:27,408 --> 00:34:29,500
developer. 
I have zero interest in your 

787
00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:31,900
fancy stuff. 
I use your product to get my 

788
00:34:31,900 --> 00:34:34,000
work done. 
So the fastest, I could do it. 

789
00:34:34,100 --> 00:34:36,500
The best experience. 
I am going to get the least. 

790
00:34:36,500 --> 00:34:38,199
I have to learn the better for 
me. 

791
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:40,800
But if you are introducing a 
product that I have to learn a 

792
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,000
lot that's going to be annoying 
for because he could waste my 

793
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:44,400
time. 
Earning your product. 

794
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,500
Why should I learn your product?
I shouldn't have to learn your 

795
00:34:46,500 --> 00:34:48,199
product. 
It should be intuitive a 

796
00:34:48,199 --> 00:34:51,100
co-product if I already know how
rest API is worth. 

797
00:34:51,300 --> 00:34:53,199
Then you should be intuitive for
me to use that. 

798
00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:54,800
I shouldn't have to learn few 
things. 

799
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:56,800
You did differently because you 
thought it would be good. 

800
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:58,900
No, that's not going to cut it. 
That's going to be bad developer

801
00:34:58,900 --> 00:35:00,900
experience for me. 
So crepey eyes. 

802
00:35:00,900 --> 00:35:03,500
That's going to be a huge thing 
sticking to conventions and 

803
00:35:03,500 --> 00:35:06,600
highly adopted standards. 
Good error handling if I'm using

804
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,400
an API, and if I cannot figure 
out what's going wrong, they 

805
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:11,800
have to call up your support to 
know what's going wrong, then 

806
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:14,400
that's not a great experience. 
Assistant an easy-to-use 

807
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,700
documentation, that's extremely 
important for epa's. 

808
00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:20,000
Like providing the APA dogs, or 
dogs that you can actually try 

809
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,500
out the APA. 
Providing sdks and libraries for

810
00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:25,600
epa's, again, very important 
because if I'm using an API 

811
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,800
don't want to build all these 
sdks myself. 

812
00:35:27,900 --> 00:35:30,900
If you can just provide those, 
I'll just happily use that and 

813
00:35:30,900 --> 00:35:34,100
forget about your EP at all. 
So the sooner I can forget about

814
00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:36,200
the API and moon with the next 
up the better. 

815
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,600
These provide a smooth help 
possible for the developers to 

816
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,400
make sure that they can 
integrate with you in as little 

817
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:44,800
as time as possible. 
Without having to learn your 

818
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:47,100
product that's going to be great
developer experience. 

819
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:49,500
They are going to recommend your
product to other people. 

820
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,000
They are going to hate. 
This was awesome. 

821
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,600
I could integrate it in half a 
day and get the work done. 

822
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,000
So it is awesome. 
So that's the kind of developer 

823
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,200
experience. 
You should be aiming for but if 

824
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,700
you're building developer tools 
of products, then it's going to 

825
00:36:00,707 --> 00:36:03,800
be different Focus. 
Like good ux matters in that. 

826
00:36:03,900 --> 00:36:07,000
If you are building an ID, a 
good user experience matters, 

827
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:10,000
but not like traditional user 
experience, but it should be 

828
00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:12,500
tailored towards developers. 
You should put in things that 

829
00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:14,300
developers like them. 
Was like dark mode. 

830
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:16,900
Okay, just provide them 
switchable teams as good 

831
00:36:16,900 --> 00:36:18,600
developer experience because 
then people are not going to be 

832
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,800
frustrated because there are 
going to be people who like that

833
00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,200
mode. 
There are going to be people 

834
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:25,400
like life, just keep them. 
Both provide customizability. 

835
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:28,500
People are opinionated. 
Don't try to push people into 

836
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:31,000
certain things. 
It might work for some products,

837
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,700
but it's not going to work for 
every product. 

838
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:34,900
Some products might be lucky 
enough that they push for 

839
00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:37,300
certain in Papillion, it flows 
and it just worked for them. 

840
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:40,700
But if you try to replicate that
the chance of it working is 

841
00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,800
going to be quite slimming. 
So, try to provide Add more 

842
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,400
customizability, that's good, 
developer experience. 

843
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,500
Again, make it easy to use and 
install. 

844
00:36:48,500 --> 00:36:51,400
If I have to use your product. 
I shouldn't have to go through 

845
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:54,800
multiple hoops and jump through 
multiple Hoops just to get it 

846
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,700
installed and started that's 
going to be really bad first. 

847
00:36:57,700 --> 00:37:00,500
Impression already that's 
already going to be motivate me 

848
00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,200
from liking the products. 
So make it easy to install 

849
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:04,600
anywhere, make it cross 
platform. 

850
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,300
Make it available in all those 
well-known package managers. 

851
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:10,100
So anyone with water overflow, 
they have can easily just find 

852
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,300
and install the product. 
The list goes on, depending on 

853
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:14,900
the domain that you're trying to
There are a lot of things we can

854
00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:16,700
do. 
There are researchers done on 

855
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:18,700
these. 
There are great products that we

856
00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:22,100
know and love which we can take 
us inspiration and follow their 

857
00:37:22,100 --> 00:37:24,400
lead. 
So maybe if I can just add one 

858
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,200
more. 
The one thing that I always get 

859
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,700
annoyed is when I work on a 
product that has specify 

860
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:32,400
something The Docks, but it 
doesn't work as advertised. 

861
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,700
Thanks Depot for your sharing 
about this developer experience.

862
00:37:36,700 --> 00:37:39,200
Unfortunately, due to time, we 
have to cut it short. 

863
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,500
So Before I Let You Go, normally
I have this one last question 

864
00:37:42,500 --> 00:37:44,800
that I always ask. 
As all my guests which is to 

865
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,800
share, the three technical 
leadership is done. 

866
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,300
This is for people who wants to 
learn from your journey. 

867
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:52,600
So what will be your tree wisdom
to share with people. 

868
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:56,400
I think the one thing that I 
keep telling to people 

869
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,700
especially Juniors and people 
are starting out is to not get 

870
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:03,400
married to a technology or 
framework or to a language, 

871
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,100
don't get married to stuff 
because you see a lot of people 

872
00:38:06,100 --> 00:38:08,900
who are so religious about the 
language. 

873
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,900
They your kin or particular 
framework like react, they spend

874
00:38:12,900 --> 00:38:14,900
so much. 
Percent energy on just proving 

875
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:17,100
to people that he react is the 
best kind of thing. 

876
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:19,200
I used to do that. 
That's why I'm sharing this 

877
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:20,700
because I used to be that 
person. 

878
00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,300
I used to be very religious 
about the technologies that I 

879
00:38:23,300 --> 00:38:25,700
use the Frameworks. 
I like languages. 

880
00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:29,200
I like but after, like a decade,
you start realizing. 

881
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,400
It doesn't matter. 
Technologies are going to come 

882
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:33,200
and go Frameworks are going to 
come and go. 

883
00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:35,200
I used to be a huge fan of 
angularjs. 

884
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:38,200
Look at angularjs whatever. 
Angular we have currently has 

885
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,200
nothing to do with languages. 
It's gone. 

886
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,500
New Frameworks would come and go
especially in the JavaScript 

887
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:44,700
World. 
There is so much stone that 

888
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:46,300
things just come and go in 
months. 

889
00:38:46,500 --> 00:38:48,500
So don't get married to 
Frameworks. 

890
00:38:48,500 --> 00:38:50,500
Don't get married to a 
particular technology. 

891
00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:53,500
Not even languages are not even 
parody of the, I hate seeing 

892
00:38:53,500 --> 00:38:56,400
when people are like so much 
into functional programming. 

893
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:57,900
That is the only way. 
No, that's not. 

894
00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:00,100
The only way there are multiple 
ways to do stuff. 

895
00:39:00,100 --> 00:39:02,900
You might like it, but don't be 
that close minded like that. 

896
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,600
There could be times. 
Then imperative programming does

897
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:06,900
much better for you than 
function. 

898
00:39:06,900 --> 00:39:09,700
But especially if you're writing
a very performance intensive 

899
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:13,200
logic and you have to tune every
possible minute. 

900
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:15,700
And out of that then don't write
functional programming. 

901
00:39:15,700 --> 00:39:17,600
There. 
It is a valid way of programming

902
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,600
as well, or if you want to do 
opes, do checked oriented 

903
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,200
programming, doesn't matter. 
So, don't get married to these 

904
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,700
things. 
It's not going to help you in 

905
00:39:24,700 --> 00:39:26,800
the long run. 
It might feel good in the short 

906
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,400
term. 
But in the long run, I think it 

907
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,700
would help you much better. 
If you're open-minded about 

908
00:39:30,700 --> 00:39:33,600
things, try different things, 
use the right tool for the right

909
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,900
situation. 
A lot of people try to have one 

910
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,800
tool and use it like a hammer on
everything, but I would prefer 

911
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,500
to have multiple Tools in my 
tool kit and figure out if the 

912
00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:44,700
problem is a nail. 
Or if it's us Screw then use the

913
00:39:44,700 --> 00:39:47,900
right one because I can get the 
job done much faster and in a 

914
00:39:47,908 --> 00:39:50,900
much better way than doing a 
generic to, that's why I also 

915
00:39:50,900 --> 00:39:53,500
believe in being a generalist 
because if you know, multiple 

916
00:39:53,500 --> 00:39:56,600
things, then you are horizontal 
expands and to become more 

917
00:39:56,600 --> 00:39:59,600
pragmatic. 
You start seeing problems as 

918
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,600
problems and try to give 
Solutions and you don't try to 

919
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,800
treat every problem as something
to be solved by something that 

920
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:08,300
you already know. 
Don't get married to anything 

921
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,200
related to technology. 
Be open about it, sits around. 

922
00:40:11,300 --> 00:40:13,300
Go with the trend if you want 
to, that's fine. 

923
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,700
But change with the trend, also,
when the trend changes don't get

924
00:40:16,700 --> 00:40:19,200
stuck to some thick and one I 
would say would be to rely on 

925
00:40:19,200 --> 00:40:20,900
tools. 
This is something that we 

926
00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,500
discuss, right? 
So I rely on tools a lot. 

927
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,800
I lay on my IDs I predominantly 
use vs code for anything non 

928
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,200
Java and I use IntelliJ for 
Java. 

929
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,300
That's my preferred tool set. 
I can't imagine writing code 

930
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:36,600
without these I can't imagine 
writing rust or go or JavaScript

931
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,800
or css code. 
If someone asked me to write it 

932
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,300
in notepad or Google doc. 
I will be like stuck. 

933
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:42,900
I'll be like I have no idea what
to do. 

934
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:45,300
So I Rely heavily on tools, for 
me. 

935
00:40:45,300 --> 00:40:47,700
That's a good thing because my 
job is to do these kind of 

936
00:40:47,700 --> 00:40:50,500
things using a tool. 
So I should optimize for what I 

937
00:40:50,508 --> 00:40:53,700
should be doing realistic, not 
something unrealistic. 

938
00:40:53,900 --> 00:40:57,200
I'm not a competitive program or
something to do things on those 

939
00:40:57,200 --> 00:40:59,700
kind of reach code, or a current
or those kind of things. 

940
00:40:59,700 --> 00:41:02,000
No, that's not what I'm going to
do day in day out. 

941
00:41:02,100 --> 00:41:04,200
So I need to optimize for what I
do day in day. 

942
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,200
Out that day in day out. 
I'm going to work on an ID or a 

943
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,700
code editor writing programs, or
doing whatever. 

944
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:13,200
I use all plugins possible to 
make my work for simpler. 

945
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:17,200
And Foster, if a tool can do 
certain things rate that the to 

946
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:18,900
do it. 
I started using the copilot 

947
00:41:18,900 --> 00:41:20,700
feature for vs code. 
It was great. 

948
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,200
Of course, don't just blindly 
follow these things. 

949
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:26,000
It's perfectly fine to use 
stackoverflow, Google or 

950
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:28,700
something like co-pilot for. 
The only thing is don't just 

951
00:41:28,700 --> 00:41:30,100
blindly. 
Take whatever. 

952
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:32,000
It keeps. 
Look at what it is. 

953
00:41:32,100 --> 00:41:34,500
See if it works for you, if it 
works, just use it. 

954
00:41:34,700 --> 00:41:37,700
Similarly use the tools provided
by the language ecosystem. 

955
00:41:37,700 --> 00:41:40,300
Like for rust. 
I always use the linter called 

956
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:43,500
clicky and these kind of things 
because it gives me Nice 

957
00:41:43,500 --> 00:41:46,100
suggestions and it makes me 
improve myself. 

958
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:49,100
It gives me suggestions that I 
didn't think of, I get to 

959
00:41:49,100 --> 00:41:51,400
improve because these tools are 
becoming much more smarter than 

960
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:52,900
us. 
So, I'm pretty sure at some 

961
00:41:52,900 --> 00:41:54,100
point. 
These tools are going to be much

962
00:41:54,100 --> 00:41:56,000
smarter than as they can write. 
All the code for us. 

963
00:41:56,100 --> 00:41:58,300
If that happens. 
I should be able to utilize that

964
00:41:58,300 --> 00:42:01,300
and don't become obsolete. 
So I should adapt to working 

965
00:42:01,300 --> 00:42:03,600
with these tools and make myself
future proof. 

966
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:05,100
That would be the smart thing to
do. 

967
00:42:05,100 --> 00:42:06,800
I would say so yeah, rely on 
tools. 

968
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,600
The third thing would be to 
write simple code. 

969
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:12,700
Most of the times you don't have
to use fancy features or you 

970
00:42:12,707 --> 00:42:15,800
don't have Right. 
Extremely fancy looking code to 

971
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,100
get the work done. 
The simpler. 

972
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:19,500
The code is the better. 
It is to maintain the better. 

973
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:21,900
It is for other people to read 
its overall better. 

974
00:42:21,900 --> 00:42:24,000
So there is always a simple 
solution to problems. 

975
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:26,100
So it's always try to find the 
simplest solution. 

976
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,300
Don't try to find the fanciest 
or most complex looking 

977
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:31,200
solution. 
I have seen people doing that 

978
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,900
especially in programming. 
There is this urge to show off 

979
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:35,400
all your programming skills, 
right? 

980
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,000
Especially if you are working 
with languages like Scala or 

981
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:39,800
rust with a lot of language 
features. 

982
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,900
It's easy to just get swayed and
try to be as as cool as 

983
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:45,200
possible. 
In terms of solution. 

984
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:46,500
You saw the fancy features. 
Okay. 

985
00:42:46,500 --> 00:42:49,000
I need to use this feature here.
Then in the end, you end up 

986
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,700
writing code, that is quite 
unreadable and complex to start 

987
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:55,800
with probably it might be 
solving the problem, but it is 

988
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,100
introducing a lot of other 
problems on the side. 

989
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:00,200
Maintaining that code is going 
to be really bad. 

990
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,400
So if you can just get that done
with the simplest of the feature

991
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,500
possible, please do that. 
That's going to save a lot of 

992
00:43:06,500 --> 00:43:08,400
time for a lot of people in the 
long term. 

993
00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:11,100
So yeah. 
So those are the things I like 

994
00:43:11,100 --> 00:43:13,800
about the Simplicity as well. 
So I learned also, Leave you 

995
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,700
episodes before that actually a 
simple maintainable code is good

996
00:43:17,700 --> 00:43:19,900
for teamwork. 
I'm sure a lot of developers 

997
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:22,100
this day work in a team rather 
than solo. 

998
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:24,200
So thanks again for the wisdom 
people. 

999
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,300
So for people who are interested
to know more about you or follow

1000
00:43:27,300 --> 00:43:29,100
you online. 
Where can they find you? 

1001
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,000
I would prefer return because 
some most active on Twitter. 

1002
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:38,600
So you can find me on Twitter as
we pull 105 and on my website as

1003
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:39,900
well. 
So I write about all these 

1004
00:43:39,900 --> 00:43:43,200
things on my website so you can 
find it at the boot Dot. 

1005
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:45,500
At Tech. 
I have a Blog with mostly 

1006
00:43:45,500 --> 00:43:48,500
technical stuff, but also write 
about developer experience, 

1007
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,800
hiring in our industry, being a 
better programmer and these kind

1008
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,800
of things. 
So thanks again for your time 

1009
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:55,400
Depot. 
I wish you good luck with all 

1010
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,100
your work. 
Yeah. 

1011
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:58,200
Thank you. 
Thank you so much. 

1012
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,100
That was so nice of you to have 
me and I'm so glad I could share

1013
00:44:01,100 --> 00:44:02,100
these things. 
Yeah. 

1014
00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:07,000
Thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1015
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,600
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1016
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,800
If you're highly enjoyed, please
share it with your friends and 

1017
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,100
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1018
00:44:16,100 --> 00:44:18,400
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1019
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,700
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1020
00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:25,100
review and feedback. 
It really, really helps me a lot

1021
00:44:25,100 --> 00:44:27,600
in order to grow these podcasts 
better. 

1022
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:31,500
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1023
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:34,200
the episode page at technology. 
No, the death. 

1024
00:44:34,300 --> 00:44:37,400
Site, including the full 
transcript, interesting quotes, 

1025
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:41,100
and links to the resources and 
mentions from the conversation. 

1026
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:44,500
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1027
00:44:44,500 --> 00:44:47,700
list on technology. 
No, the deaf to get notified for

1028
00:44:47,700 --> 00:44:50,500
any future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1029
00:44:50,500 --> 00:44:52,900
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1030
00:44:53,100 --> 00:44:53,700
Goodbye.