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The output of a manager is the 
output of the managers team. 

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Plus the output of the 
organization that they 

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influence. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya Barragan.
And you're listening to the 

5
00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,600
tekhelet Juno, the show will be 
bringing you the greatest 

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00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:24,400
technical leaders practitioners 
and thought leaders in the 

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industry to discuss about their 
Journey ideas and practices that

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00:00:29,300 --> 00:00:32,400
we all can learn and apply to 
build a highly performing 

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technical team and to make an 
impact in your personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hey, everyone. 

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00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:47,900
Welcome to another new episode 
of the technique Journal 

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00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:50,400
podcast. 
I'm always excited to be back 

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00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:53,200
with a new episode every week to
share with all of you. 

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00:00:53,300 --> 00:00:56,300
My conversation with another 
great technical leader in the 

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industry. 
Thank you for tuning in and 

16
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,300
spending your time with me 
today, listening to this 

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00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:03,700
episode. 
If you are new to the podcast, 

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know that package, you know, is 
available on major podcast apps 

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such as Spotify, a podcast 
Google podcast, YouTube, and 

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many more, make sure to 
subscribe and get notified for 

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Any new episode in the future 
also do. 

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Check out and follow technology.
No social media channels on 

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LinkedIn Twitter and Instagram. 
Where every day, I post 

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insightful quotes from each 
week's episode and I share them 

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on those social media channels 
to help Inspire us to get better

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each day. 
And if you'd like to support the

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No dot f / Patron. 
I highly appreciate any Kind of 

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support from all of you and your
contribution would definitely 

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help me to build sustainably 
producing this show. 

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Every week for today's episode. 
I am excited to share my 

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conversation with James. 
Stanier. 

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James is the S VP of engineering
at Brand watch. 

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And the author of the book 
titled become an effective 

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software engineering manager. 
This book is one of the great 

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resources that I've read that 
provides guidance for 

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engineering managers or people 
who aspire ER to become 

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engineering managers. 
In order to become more 

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effective and make great impact 
in engineering teams. 

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James also writes frequently on 
his Blog, the engineering 

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manager.com in which you can 
also find more of his writings 

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about this topic. 
In this episode, James shared 

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with me, his insights on 
becoming an effective software, 

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engineering manager and how we 
can build and run effective 

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engineering teams. 
We started off by discussing 

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why. 
The tech industry is facing a A 

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crisis because of the inability 
of many managers to manage 

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people, effectively, and the 
challenges faced by many 

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Engineers when transitioning to 
become managers. 

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We then dive deep into the best 
practices to become an effective

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manager, such as how to get 
oriented delegating effectively 

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letting go of control and 
nurturing one-on-ones with your 

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team members. 
James also pointed out the 

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hardest things that engineering 
managers have to deal with, 

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which are dealing with projects 
and humans towards the end. 

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We then wrap up with James tips 
on how a manager should handle 

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failures and move forward from 
them. 

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I hope that you will enjoy this 
great episode. 

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Please. 
Consider helping the show in the

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smallest possible way by leaving
me a rating and review on Apple 

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podcast and other podcast apps 
that allow you to do. 

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So, those ratings and reviews 
are one of the best ways to get 

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this podcast to reach more 
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gets featured. 
Podcast platform. 

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hearing any comments and 

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feedback on the social media or 
you can also directly send to me

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at technology, you know, dot f /
feedback. 

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00:03:56,700 --> 00:04:00,600
So let's get the episode started
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Hey everybody, welcome to 
another episode of the package. 

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You know? 
Today I have with me someone 

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who's an author of the book 
called becoming an effective 

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engineering manager. 
So, I read this book actually. 

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It's one of the rare books that 
I find covering topics about 

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engineering manager. 
I find it quite interesting, the

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way, He actually narrated the 
story from joining a company as 

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a manager, new manager going 
through your first day and going

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through projects working with 
people and things like that 

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until at the end, thinking about
the future. 

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But the person should do which I
think is quite interesting and 

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just going through all the 
chapters one, by one, actually 

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brings us in. 
The manager's point of view, the

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difficulties the confusion 
sometimes on what you can do, or

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what you should do. 
I think it's really really 

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crucial. 
So, I'm very happy to actually 

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meet James Tanya. 
Welcome to the show. 

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James. 
So first of all, James for 

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people who don't know you yet. 
So maybe you can introduce 

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yourself. 
Yeah. 

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She thinks my name's James. 
So I will be labeled. 

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And I've been both president of 
engineering. 

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I'm senior vice president now 
for quite a few years. 

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And I guess I didn't really 
intend to do this as a job. 

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And I'll be honest with you, 
straight up. 

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My career has taken a whole 
bunch of twists and turns and 

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various kind of things. 
I've tried and failed and so on.

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And if you're interested I can 
give you a little bit about the 

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journey I've been on. 
So it's interesting to your 

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listeners. 
Yeah. 

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Yeah. 
Sure. 

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Certainly, you can mention your 
highlights. 

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Your turning points should think
so. 

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Initially like when I went to 
universities do computer 

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science, you know, I was really,
really intent on becoming a 

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compiler engineer. 
That was my initial passion. 

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It was one of those things where
I did the compiler modules 

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during the piece size, like this
is so cool. 

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I never knew anything about 
this. 

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And as fascinated, it was like a
lovely balance between 

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programming and theory and also 
just like magic. 

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So my project at University, as 
an undergraduate was compiled. 

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Colors. 
And then, as I was finishing up,

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my supervisor said, hey, there's
some PhD funding for doing a 

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pilot project. 
Yes. 

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I'm doing that. 
Okay, I'm PhD students. 

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So I did a PhD and again, it was
a compiler. 

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So there's a theme, certainly at
the moment and all throughout my

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PhD, I was absolutely sure that 
I was going to go and do a 

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postdoctoral research may become
like a lecturer or researcher in

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compilers. 
But as I was finishing my PhD, I

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was interviewing in a few 
different places for positions. 

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And there weren't many at the 
time. 

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This was like 2010, 2011, and it
I mean clear that either, I'd 

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have to move halfway across the 
globe to do. 

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One of these research positions,
or should probably try and do 

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something different. 
So, I went to a few interviews. 

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I narrowly missed out on a few 
slots and then there was a 

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start-up in my town time, which 
was Bryson in the UK on the 

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south coast. 
They just raised some seed money

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and they're looking for people 
and I must admit I wasn't 

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looking to work there and I was 
kind of hesitant if only a few 

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times. 
I was like, I'm not really sure 

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I want to do this. 
I was actually in the interview 

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process for Google at the time 
as well. 

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And I was like, that sounds way 
better, but actually I I went 

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into met this startup and it 
seemed really interesting and 

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then I was back in the engineer.
So at number of years doing 

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that, at the start of the world 
and we raised several rounds of 

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venture capital funding which in
turn grew the company, which 

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then meant that we were needing 
to have our first managers. 

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And that's how I got into it. 
Really. 

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How do we actually structure 
teams? 

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How do we run teams? 
Could I do that? 

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Oh, okay. 
I guess I could do that and to 

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nearly 10 years later by senior 
vice president. 

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So I guess that kind of worked 
out. 

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So it was kind of an accident, 
kind of an opportunity and kind 

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of it. 
Arrest who rolled into one. 

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I don't write any compilers 
anymore, unfortunately, but it's

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a journey, right? 
Well, instead, you write a 

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compiler for managing people, 
you know, so I know this is like

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sometimes for us. 
It's kind of like accidental 

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Journey. 
We intend to do something, but 

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in the end we work on something 
else. 

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So for you, how hard is it being
like strong Academia kind of a 

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background going through post, 
doctoral degree and things like 

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that and then switching to 
joining a start-up which I think

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to me is a big major. 
Turn in your career. 

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So how did you analyze looking 
back? 

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It was tricky. 
I found one thing, I had to 

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completely change my own 
perspective of what mean being 

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valuable was. 
The academic world is very much 

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about publishing papers. 
It's about going to the 

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conference who is talking a 
conference to his. 

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I felt that I had to sort of 
cling to this. 

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Like, I'm not just an engineer. 
I'm also like a researcher. 

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This is important, and they have
to hold on to this, but actually

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as time went on and as a 
start-up started doing well, I 

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really enjoyed being able to 
build things with people 

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building things. 
Uses. 

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You like the product who then 
pays more money to get more 

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users and then we harm will be 
what it was a virtuous cycle. 

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And I think that was the one 
thing I did realize in Academia,

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was that it's fantastic. 
You work with some very, very 

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smart people, but the outcome is
a paper or the outcome is a 

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talk. 
And I never really experienced 

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that whole thing of really 
building for lots of users 

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before and as soon as I had 
experienced it. 

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So actually, this is way more 
fun. 

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I really enjoy this. 
So, let's go through why you 

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decide to write this book about 
becoming an effective software 

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00:09:14,100 --> 00:09:17,700
engineering Her what kind of 
problem did you see during that 

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00:09:17,700 --> 00:09:20,700
time? 
So the beginning it was my 

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00:09:20,700 --> 00:09:22,200
website. 
We just discussed before we 

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00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,600
started recording you're doing 
these weekly recordings for your

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00:09:24,608 --> 00:09:27,200
podcast. 
I set myself a similar challenge

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00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,800
a few years ago, which was I 
really want to write an article 

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a week on the management subject
just because I felt like I had 

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00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,000
to learn a lot of stuff by trial
and error. 

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If I could at the very least, 
just write it up for myself even

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those on the internet that we 
call. 

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And if there's a few other 
people, maybe people that I work

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00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:44,900
with who could read it as well 
and find some you soon at the 

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00:09:44,900 --> 00:09:46,200
next. 
Cool, that'd be great. 

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00:09:46,300 --> 00:09:49,300
So that was the original goal. 
I was like, I saw this blog and 

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00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:51,700
I'll try and write something 
once a week and see how it goes.

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00:09:51,900 --> 00:09:53,800
I just got into this nice 
Cadence with that. 

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00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:56,800
We're not only did I feel that 
people were actually reading it 

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00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,500
which was cool. 
People came to the website and 

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00:09:58,508 --> 00:10:01,100
the traffic kept growing. 
I had a few front pages on 

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00:10:01,100 --> 00:10:03,000
Hacker News and things like 
that, and that was really cool. 

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00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,100
But I found that writing 
something once a week was just a

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00:10:06,108 --> 00:10:09,000
really great way of me better 
understanding the subject 

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00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,000
myself, because all of these 
ideas are kind of complicated 

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00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,600
and by actually focusing on 
writing them down, you really 

214
00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:17,200
start to To explore the idea and
then you come away going. 

215
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:19,000
I to understand that better. 
Now that I've actually tried to 

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00:10:19,008 --> 00:10:21,400
process it, somebody else, when 
you teach something you feel 

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00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:24,000
that, you understand it better. 
So the site was the beginning 

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00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:27,000
about 10 years ago. 
When I was starting to read 

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00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,700
about management, this was 
before there was this little 

220
00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:31,900
explosion of engineering manager
type books. 

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00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:34,800
A lot of the books that I bought
at the time were either like 

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00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,700
very business ebooks. 
Like McKinsey consultant talks 

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00:10:38,700 --> 00:10:42,200
to you about Management in 
Fortune 500 company. 

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00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:44,500
There's bits in here that I 
relate to but there's also bits 

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00:10:44,500 --> 00:10:46,600
in our video. 
There was one book, but I did 

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00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:48,900
read that I thought was 
fantastic, which was high output

227
00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:52,400
management by Andy Grove. 
I mean, lots of people know him 

228
00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:55,300
CEO of Intel engineering 
background, kind of Silicon 

229
00:10:55,300 --> 00:10:58,700
Valley, Legend person book for 
people that don't what was 

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00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:01,900
really nice about him as the CEO
of Intel is that, he is an 

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00:11:01,900 --> 00:11:04,100
engineer at heart. 
So he thinks about things in 

232
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very engineering ways that I can
relate to. 

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He ran a humongous company doing
incredibly complicated things, 

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but he wrote this fantastic 
book. 

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Yes, I would. 
It's like mid 80s, but there 

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were so many things in there as 
I ask. 

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He's really thought about this 
messy human thing and managed to

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sort of put a process around it,
that makes sense to me. 

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He talks about these anecdotes 
of like running a cafe, and then

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it's not okay, boiling eggs, and
like making toast and employing 

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people, and then he's like that 
because this is hard, is this 

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people management problem? 
And you like? 

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00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,100
Oh, wow, he really is, I can 
relate to that. 

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00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:37,600
So, that was my first experience
of this one book that I read. 

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I felt like, I've learned four 
years, five years of doing this 

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job, by just reading this one 
book. 

247
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So I thought there's a gap in 
the market here. 

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It feels like this. 
Exist, that's why I started the 

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site and then after writing for 
several years, I thought I've 

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got at least a books worth of 
material as you mentioned at the

251
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beginning. 
There are other management books

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out there and they were 
brilliant ones. 

253
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There's managing humans. 
There's managers path is an 

254
00:11:58,900 --> 00:12:00,800
eloquent puzzle. 
There's lots of other management

255
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:02,200
books out there. 
So I'm not saying that mines the

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best, but in the same way that 
there's loads of different books

257
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on learning to program, 
different authors have different

258
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takes on the same material and I
think sometimes it's really 

259
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useful to have different 
perspectives on the same thing. 

260
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So I wanted to write something. 
That was kind of if I just 

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started my job as an engineering
manager. 

262
00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:20,300
Now. 
If someone put this book on my 

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desk and said, hey just like, 
have a read of that. 

264
00:12:22,900 --> 00:12:25,500
Then I want to structure in such
a way that maybe they could read

265
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a chapter, every few weeks and 
then it would kind of unfold as 

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they were doing their job and 
then they could refer back to 

267
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it. 
So that was kind of a handbook. 

268
00:12:32,500 --> 00:12:35,300
I wanted to put together. 
Yeah, so when I read it 

269
00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:38,700
definitely it's like a manual. 
So it's like when you are on 

270
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board it as a manager, you can 
literally read it one chapter a 

271
00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,700
week, probably and you can 
relate with so many things that 

272
00:12:44,700 --> 00:12:48,400
you They're either like the own 
productivity hiring working with

273
00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,400
people, influencing other people
and things like that, but I want

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00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,000
to start with one first 
interesting point of view that 

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00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:55,700
you have in the beginning of the
book. 

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00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:59,800
So you mentioned that there's a 
skills crisis in the technology 

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industry due to the ability of 
many managers, not able to 

278
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manage people. 
And I mean, if I can see these 

279
00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:10,100
days technology Industries are 
really booming, they are more 

280
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:12,800
and more people being involved 
in the technology. 

281
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:15,700
So why do you start with that? 
Kind of Statement. 

282
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,900
This is something I've 
experienced myself is the in 

283
00:13:18,900 --> 00:13:22,600
order for people to get into 
technology, especially software 

284
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:25,100
Engineers. 
They've often had a hobby in 

285
00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,200
childhood. 
Maybe they've been really good 

286
00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,600
at certain subjects at school. 
They learn to program the 

287
00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,200
practice for years that may be 
done a degree. 

288
00:13:33,300 --> 00:13:35,800
They've done all this work in 
order to get where they are. 

289
00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,500
If you end up working for a 
company, that doesn't have very 

290
00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:42,300
clear career progression. 
I mean, you work for a company 

291
00:13:42,300 --> 00:13:44,400
that's got very clear tracks and
progression. 

292
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,600
And as, The other big technology
companies know everywhere does. 

293
00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:51,200
So, unfortunately, I think a lot
of software engineers and up a 

294
00:13:51,208 --> 00:13:54,400
bit stuck in their progression. 
They think, how do I earn more 

295
00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:57,900
money or how do I get a 
promotion, or how do I progress 

296
00:13:58,100 --> 00:14:01,400
and often people who maybe don't
want to be managers, end up 

297
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,100
going for managerial roles? 
Because they see it as a way hit

298
00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:06,100
grossing. 
So, we end up with people who've

299
00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:08,900
never done it before going into 
these engineering manager roles,

300
00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,900
and they have very little 
support and how to do that job 

301
00:14:11,900 --> 00:14:14,200
properly, because it's a 
different job fundamentally. 

302
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,600
It's a different job. 
It's Still has the same context 

303
00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,900
of being an engineer. 
It still has the same company 

304
00:14:18,900 --> 00:14:21,400
and domain but the skills are 
totally different and I was 

305
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,100
teaching them to you and I 
think, unfortunately, by 

306
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:26,600
nobody's fault. 
It's meant that a lot of people 

307
00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:29,100
become managers that didn't want
to be or didn't realize what the

308
00:14:29,108 --> 00:14:30,900
job entailed or just 
fundamentally. 

309
00:14:30,900 --> 00:14:32,600
Don't even know how to do a good
job. 

310
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,000
Give them the software industry 
is growing all the time. 

311
00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,600
We always in legal managers, but
it doesn't feel like the support

312
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:38,800
network for them is really 
there. 

313
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,500
So I thought, could I write 
something that could at least 

314
00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:44,200
give people that friendly 
helping hand through the first 

315
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:45,500
six to 12 months. 
Job. 

316
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,500
So in your opinion, do managers 
need to start as an engineer in 

317
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:52,500
the first place or anybody, as 
long as they have a good 

318
00:14:52,500 --> 00:14:55,200
management skills can become an 
engineering manager. 

319
00:14:55,900 --> 00:14:58,800
It's a really good question. 
And I think maybe there's two 

320
00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:01,200
sides to it. 
So, I would say you don't have 

321
00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,100
to be an engineer for sure. 
People who are fantastic 

322
00:15:04,100 --> 00:15:06,800
managers, could do a good job, 
but it really helps to 

323
00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:10,600
understand how to shape and 
release code how to work with 

324
00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:13,000
other engineers. 
And also unfortunately, there is

325
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,400
a respect element as well. 
If you are an engineer near 

326
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,500
knowing that you report to 
someone, who has been an 

327
00:15:17,500 --> 00:15:19,700
engineer, really greatly helps 
because you can offer that 

328
00:15:19,700 --> 00:15:21,700
technical supports them as well 
as a manager. 

329
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,500
You can help them think through 
problems. 

330
00:15:23,500 --> 00:15:25,500
You can have your past 
experience to help them through 

331
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:27,700
things. 
So in theory, you don't have to 

332
00:15:27,700 --> 00:15:30,300
be an engineer to be an 
engineering manager, but in 

333
00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:33,000
practice really it's super 
helpful to both sides. 

334
00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:36,400
So I also realized this kind of 
pattern in the industrial like 

335
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:38,700
what you mentioned, right. 
A lot of these Superstar 

336
00:15:38,700 --> 00:15:41,500
Engineers or developers. 
The one who are really, really 

337
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:43,400
strong. 
Technically they can go from 

338
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:44,900
high level low level. 
Whatever. 

339
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,400
Level coming up with great 
design of scalable system. 

340
00:15:48,500 --> 00:15:50,400
Once they reach a certain number
of years. 

341
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,800
Then people just want to promote
them to become a manager. 

342
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,600
Not knowing probably that person
doesn't want to do that. 

343
00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:58,600
But the progression like the 
benefits, the money, and all 

344
00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:00,600
that only comes by being a 
manager. 

345
00:16:00,700 --> 00:16:02,900
Some companies do have 
progression for individual 

346
00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:05,300
contributor, but I think many in
the industry student. 

347
00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:08,100
So how do you see we can solve 
these kind of problems. 

348
00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:11,100
A strong individual contributor,
but he doesn't want to do any 

349
00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:13,800
management role. 
Yeah, it definitely requires 

350
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:17,000
change on the Please part one of
the latest chapters in the book 

351
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:20,000
goes through this exercise of 
defining, the to Career track. 

352
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,800
So it starts with shared 
competences of just very general

353
00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:26,700
things that are increasing the 
time in terms of responsibility 

354
00:16:26,700 --> 00:16:29,300
and expertise and skill and 
output who does make a 

355
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:31,700
distinction between having a 
management track in an icy 

356
00:16:31,700 --> 00:16:34,200
track. 
And really what companies have 

357
00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,400
to realize is that they are two 
separate jobs. 

358
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:38,900
That's the thing. 
People can move between them. 

359
00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:42,400
People also can act as a hybrid.
So there are definitely people 

360
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,000
who can be strong Engineers, but
also can manage Small team, but 

361
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:47,200
it's really making the 
distinction. 

362
00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:49,800
I mean, two things one. 
Is that the higher part of the 

363
00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:52,600
management track really if 
you're doing that job well and 

364
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,500
you really are being an 
excellent manager and you're 

365
00:16:54,500 --> 00:16:57,100
managing a large division. 
For example, you don't have the 

366
00:16:57,100 --> 00:16:59,700
time to do any good programming 
and even if you did what could 

367
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:00,800
you do? 
It's like. 

368
00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:02,200
Oh, yeah, I'll do that one 
point. 

369
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,400
Ticket to like fix that one bug 
is not the best use of your time

370
00:17:05,599 --> 00:17:07,200
but conversely as well to say 
that. 

371
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,400
Hey, you like not only can we go
from The Graduate engineer to 

372
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:13,300
senior engineer, but then one of
our positions like staff 

373
00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:16,400
engineer principal engineer, 
Really promote those as ways 

374
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,500
forward as well. 
We're going up on the icy track 

375
00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,099
to say hey, there are ways if we
frame these roles as less about,

376
00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:24,500
you just need to write the code,
but it's more about. 

377
00:17:24,500 --> 00:17:27,000
You can build consensus, you can
inform design. 

378
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,900
You can really make impactful 
engineering decisions that 

379
00:17:29,900 --> 00:17:31,300
affect the bottom line of the 
business. 

380
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:34,100
You could propose a re 
architecture of the system that 

381
00:17:34,100 --> 00:17:36,700
saves half of the money that you
are spending before or make 

382
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:38,900
something twice as fast or more 
efficient. 

383
00:17:38,900 --> 00:17:41,700
Those is framing the impact of 
those roles at the higher end of

384
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:43,600
the IC scope. 
So, these are the things you 

385
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,700
should be thinking about. 
So I read your book is very 

386
00:17:46,700 --> 00:17:49,400
interesting how you structure. 
So called the big sections. 

387
00:17:49,500 --> 00:17:52,500
You start with what you call 
getting oriented as a manager. 

388
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:56,400
Which to me sounds like you want
to focus as an individual person

389
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,800
right now, like, improve 
yourself, being highly effective

390
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:01,000
and things like that. 
And I like the things when you 

391
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,600
mention about getting organized,
they are four different tools, 

392
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:05,700
which I find quite relevant. 
Even though you are not a 

393
00:18:05,700 --> 00:18:07,100
manager. 
Can you cover a little bit? 

394
00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:08,500
What are those? 
Four tools? 

395
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,900
Yeah, sure. 
Background on the beginning of 

396
00:18:10,900 --> 00:18:11,700
the book. 
Actually. 

397
00:18:11,700 --> 00:18:13,500
I was thinking about Crossing At
first. 

398
00:18:13,500 --> 00:18:15,900
I kept thinking, hang this. 
This stuff too simple. 

399
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,100
This needs to be just like 
somebody's to go getting things 

400
00:18:18,100 --> 00:18:22,300
done or like some organization 
book, but then from experience. 

401
00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:25,500
I know that one of the real 
superpowers you can have as a 

402
00:18:25,508 --> 00:18:27,500
manager is, if you're just 
organized. 

403
00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:30,400
This is like really basic stuff,
like organizing your time and 

404
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,000
your tasks, and your input 
messages and things. 

405
00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,500
If you can just get a handle on 
all that and have a process, the

406
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:38,500
sorts through it, then you 
actually realize how few people 

407
00:18:38,500 --> 00:18:41,100
do that really? 
Well because all of a sudden you

408
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,300
can reply to people quite 
quickly, you can put something 

409
00:18:43,300 --> 00:18:46,000
on your to-do list and then you 
can actually You do it, and then

410
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,300
someone said, something you fold
it up and like, why do you 

411
00:18:48,308 --> 00:18:49,400
actually followed up on that 
thing? 

412
00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:51,300
I was talking about you like, of
course. 

413
00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:53,600
Yeah. 
So there's these four tools that

414
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,600
I talked about and I tried to 
sort of unpick some of the bad 

415
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,800
habits of people have 
fundamentally organization of 

416
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:01,600
your time, is your calendar and 
your calendar is really, really 

417
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:02,600
important. 
As a manager. 

418
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:05,200
You've got limited time, often. 
You have more meetings as a 

419
00:19:05,208 --> 00:19:07,500
manager and you just have to be 
very strict with your time. 

420
00:19:07,500 --> 00:19:10,500
In order to be effective. 
Those are organizing, your tasks

421
00:19:10,500 --> 00:19:12,800
is surprising. 
How few people have to do lists 

422
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,700
in just as a kind of, like, 
cross-section of NG to peers and

423
00:19:15,700 --> 00:19:18,700
people I know just having a 
to-do list and having a nice 

424
00:19:18,700 --> 00:19:20,600
simple routine just to keep it 
organized. 

425
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:23,600
You prioritize those incredible 
things not just in terms of you 

426
00:19:23,608 --> 00:19:25,900
actually being able to execute 
what you say you're going to do,

427
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:27,700
but just keeping things out of 
your brain. 

428
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,100
There's only so much working 
memory that you have as a human 

429
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:32,400
and it's always taken up by 
stuff all the time. 

430
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:33,500
It's very easy to get 
distracted. 

431
00:19:33,500 --> 00:19:36,300
So, having a routine with a 
to-do list, we can write things 

432
00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:37,200
out. 
Forget about them. 

433
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,200
Fantastic without really, really
owed you. 

434
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,000
This next week's fairly 
opinionated, personally. 

435
00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:44,800
I think that given how many 
different platforms work. 

436
00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:49,500
Did communicate on from slacked 
to various DM applications to 

437
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:53,100
emails to GitHub to everything. 
I really doubt you're saying 

438
00:19:53,100 --> 00:19:55,600
route, everything through your 
email, inbox have email 

439
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,400
notifications, everything all 
rooted to one place and the 

440
00:19:58,408 --> 00:20:00,800
natural canonical view of the 
world. 

441
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,100
So you can actually triaging and
go from there. 

442
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,800
And then all those three tools 
is one other which is just a 

443
00:20:05,808 --> 00:20:08,000
place to capture information 
when you're not near anything 

444
00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:09,800
else. 
So this could be, if you're in 

445
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,900
an office physically, it might 
be you just carry a little 

446
00:20:11,900 --> 00:20:13,900
notebook with your phone around 
with you just to jot things 

447
00:20:13,900 --> 00:20:16,700
down, or If you're at home, just
piece of paper on your desk or 

448
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:19,200
something Post-it notes because 
you always hear something 

449
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,400
interesting, there is worth 
following up, or finding out 

450
00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,100
more about us. 
Just getting in the habit of 

451
00:20:23,100 --> 00:20:24,400
like that. 
I'll just write that down and 

452
00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:26,400
then it's out my brain. 
And it's, there is really 

453
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:28,700
useful. 
So I like the Simplicity of 

454
00:20:28,700 --> 00:20:31,300
these four tools, one of the 
challenges, of course, like we 

455
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:34,500
all know these days information 
comes from everywhere, like you 

456
00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:37,200
have so many devices, you have 
so many tools within your work. 

457
00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:40,200
You have casual conversations. 
You have so many maybe 

458
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,700
newsletter that you read. 
I think people are sometimes 

459
00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:45,500
overwhelmed on how they can 
actually start to The nice days.

460
00:20:45,500 --> 00:20:48,000
Although it sounds simple right?
Executing it and having a 

461
00:20:48,008 --> 00:20:50,500
discipline to actually put 
everything in this for. 

462
00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,800
I think that is self is Pretty 
Tough. 

463
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:53,700
Start. 
I would say. 

464
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:56,000
What do you think about that? 
I think is true. 

465
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,600
It is tough. 
And it does require a lot of 

466
00:20:57,608 --> 00:21:00,900
self-discipline, but I think 
when you give it a go and I'm 

467
00:21:00,900 --> 00:21:03,300
not saying that my solution is 
the best solution. 

468
00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:05,200
There are other ways in which 
you can organize things. 

469
00:21:05,400 --> 00:21:09,100
But when you do have a routine 
and you do make it a habit where

470
00:21:09,100 --> 00:21:11,200
you actually forget about the 
process, you would just 

471
00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,800
automatically doing these 
various little Cycles every day 

472
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:15,700
of gathering information. 
Ian and putting them in one 

473
00:21:15,700 --> 00:21:18,600
place and then executing through
them, you do it without thinking

474
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,700
after a while. 
And actually, you then have all 

475
00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:23,500
these moments. 
Just as I mentioned earlier, 

476
00:21:23,500 --> 00:21:25,800
where someone will thank you for
following up on something 

477
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,500
because they expect you to do it
or someone mentioned, some it to

478
00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:30,100
you last week. 
And then you actually went to 

479
00:21:30,108 --> 00:21:33,400
sort it out for the new, go back
to the movie closer in, like you

480
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,800
actually did this, you get all 
these nice little kind of 

481
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,700
reinforcing positive behaviors. 
That having this habit Loops is 

482
00:21:38,700 --> 00:21:39,900
a good thing. 
Actually. 

483
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:42,600
I think I would feel really lost
if I didn't have my habit Loops.

484
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,300
Now, I find it really, really 
hard. 

485
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,800
I'm lost. 
Don't want to do this just 

486
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:49,000
because I rely on it so much. 
So, as you mentioned as a 

487
00:21:49,008 --> 00:21:52,500
manager, most likely you'll be 
in meetings, a lot of meetings 

488
00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,200
meeting a lot of people 
discussing a lot of things. 

489
00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:58,200
One of the biggest challenge, as
Junior manager. 

490
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,900
So, to speak, right? 
Is to become effective and 

491
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:03,600
productive manager without 
thinking, like, oh, why do I 

492
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,500
waste so much of my time? 
Going into meetings talking to 

493
00:22:06,500 --> 00:22:08,800
people, I don't produce any 
code. 

494
00:22:08,900 --> 00:22:10,800
I don't write any design, dog, 
and things like that. 

495
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:14,100
So how do you navigate yourself 
throughout this chaos and 

496
00:22:14,100 --> 00:22:16,100
somehow? 
Assume productivity that you 

497
00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:19,100
think are satisfied for you. 
Here's a good question. 

498
00:22:19,100 --> 00:22:21,600
I mean, the initial thing, 
people struggle with is just how

499
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,100
you judge your output as an 
individual contributor is so 

500
00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:25,800
different. 
Like, there's an icy. 

501
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:27,400
It's like our today's been 
great. 

502
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,100
I pushed through things to 
production. 

503
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:30,800
I've worked out what that bug 
was. 

504
00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,300
I've tied off that feature. 
It's like all these hand. 

505
00:22:33,300 --> 00:22:35,900
Dribble things are happening or 
it's like I did this stuff and I

506
00:22:35,908 --> 00:22:38,600
can point to that stuff and go 
that was done and that was done.

507
00:22:38,700 --> 00:22:42,300
So this actually isn't my idea 
of to worry about these things 

508
00:22:42,300 --> 00:22:45,400
from Andy groans book by upper 
management, but He did, which 

509
00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,300
really opened my eyes because he
categorized for different 

510
00:22:48,300 --> 00:22:51,400
activities, which you can kind 
of bucket your time into as a 

511
00:22:51,408 --> 00:22:53,400
manager. 
One of them is information 

512
00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:54,800
gathering. 
The second one is 

513
00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,300
decision-making. 
The third one is nudging and the

514
00:22:58,300 --> 00:23:03,000
fourth ones being wrong and 
those four things start to 

515
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,800
frame. 
How you can be effective even in

516
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:08,800
the most boring meeting ever. 
Like, someone's invited you to 

517
00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:10,400
this meeting. 
Like 15 people. 

518
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,300
You're like, oh my God, why am I
in this meeting for two hours? 

519
00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:14,700
It starts you like, this is 
going. 

520
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,000
To be awful and you can sit 
there and you can get frustrated

521
00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:19,900
and you can feel you, clenching 
your fist, one of these 

522
00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,100
somewhere else, but actually, if
you think about it, it's 

523
00:23:22,100 --> 00:23:23,400
definitely an 
information-gathering 

524
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:24,900
opportunity. 
You could be looking at that 

525
00:23:24,900 --> 00:23:26,300
meeting. 
Hey, is there anything here? 

526
00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:28,200
That's being said that. 
We really interesting for my 

527
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:30,600
direct reports to hear. 
Well, maybe some of my peers to 

528
00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:33,200
hear you've also got the 
opportunity to make decisions as

529
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:34,600
a manager. 
People will ask you to make a 

530
00:23:34,608 --> 00:23:36,100
decision. 
That's pretty straightforward. 

531
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:40,100
The more subtle and interesting 
thing is nudging, and the way I 

532
00:23:40,108 --> 00:23:43,400
negro frames nudging, is he says
that anytime anyone really asks 

533
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:46,500
your opinion is because Probably
respect you, they think that 

534
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:48,700
you're knowledgeable and they'd 
like some input. 

535
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:51,500
So, you have an opportunity. 
When someone speaks to you to 

536
00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:53,000
say. 
Well, actually, I really think 

537
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:56,000
we should do this, and that's an
impactful thing to do. 

538
00:23:56,300 --> 00:23:58,900
If you classify those kinds of 
conversations, I managing things

539
00:23:58,900 --> 00:24:00,600
in a direction. 
I think it's positive things to 

540
00:24:00,608 --> 00:24:02,400
be doing, then that's a good use
of your time. 

541
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:05,100
And then even if you have 
absolutely no opportunity to 

542
00:24:05,100 --> 00:24:09,300
impact anything whatsoever, then
just to think, how can I act at 

543
00:24:09,308 --> 00:24:11,900
the moment in a way? 
That is a behavior, like, other 

544
00:24:11,900 --> 00:24:14,700
people to emulate. 
So could I be in this? 

545
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,600
Really frustrating meeting. 
But listen, very attentively. 

546
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,800
Agree with people. 
Offer my opinion and do things 

547
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,900
in a really good way that you'd 
expect others to emulate than 

548
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,800
even. 
That is impactful because as a 

549
00:24:24,808 --> 00:24:27,400
manager, especially as, like 
senior manager, if you let CTO 

550
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:30,900
or the CEO, for example, people 
look to you as a role model to 

551
00:24:30,900 --> 00:24:32,800
be like, how should we be in 
this company? 

552
00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:35,400
What are the values that we 
embody and how should I act? 

553
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,600
So just by being a good human 
being and doing a good job. 

554
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:40,300
You can have a positive impact 
as well. 

555
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:43,900
So you have these four different
buckets or activities like you 

556
00:24:43,900 --> 00:24:46,800
said, but again, Okay, you may 
be cut the grass your time. 

557
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,600
Where do you spend most of your 
time? 

558
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:51,300
And then what's the equivalent 
formula to actually say? 

559
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:55,100
Okay, if I spend time, equally, 
maybe or maybe one is more than 

560
00:24:55,100 --> 00:24:56,700
the others. 
How do you actually come up with

561
00:24:56,700 --> 00:24:59,600
the effectiveness of 
productivity score? 

562
00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:04,700
So to speak for many years? 
And it was one of the things I 

563
00:25:04,708 --> 00:25:06,500
originally wrote the song of my 
career. 

564
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,600
So he says the output of a 
manager is really the output of 

565
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,700
the managers team. 
Plus the output of the 

566
00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:13,500
organization that they 
influence. 

567
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:14,700
Now, sounds really 
straightforward. 

568
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:15,500
Would you like? 
Okay. 

569
00:25:15,500 --> 00:25:18,100
Yeah, but actually is kind of 
deep two things. 

570
00:25:18,100 --> 00:25:20,600
One of them. 
How do you as a manager best 

571
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,500
impact, the outcome of your team
and actually who come up in 

572
00:25:23,500 --> 00:25:26,200
loads of practical situations. 
So one thing you see with new 

573
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,400
engineering managers is like 
they've got less time because 

574
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,800
there are more meetings. 
Sometimes they fall into this 

575
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,100
kind of like janitor role where 
it's like the team is working, 

576
00:25:34,100 --> 00:25:36,300
all this stuff and the managers 
got less time. 

577
00:25:36,300 --> 00:25:39,000
So what they'll do is they'll 
try and still do some Icy work, 

578
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,100
but they'll do like the stuff 
that no one else wants to do 

579
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,700
like, oh, yeah, I'll do that 
like little ticket or there's 

580
00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:45,500
this like really annoying. 
Do that. 

581
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,500
But none of that that's not your
job to like sweep up after 

582
00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:50,100
everybody. 
You really should be think about

583
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,000
the output of the team's spend 
time on making sure that the 

584
00:25:53,008 --> 00:25:55,000
priorities are correct. 
So the people watching on the 

585
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,700
most impactful stuff and maybe 
make sure that people that need 

586
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:00,800
mentorship are getting 
mentorship so that they can get 

587
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:02,900
better because that in turn 
makes the team better. 

588
00:26:02,900 --> 00:26:05,500
So it's not framing the 
activities in that first part of

589
00:26:05,508 --> 00:26:07,400
the equation. 
And then the other bit, which is

590
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,400
talking about the organization 
that you influence, there is 

591
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:12,500
something I would naturally 
think about, but it's actually 

592
00:26:12,500 --> 00:26:14,600
really interesting building your
network. 

593
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:17,200
At the company that you're in, 
increases your influence, so 

594
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,600
that the more people that, you 
know, the more things you can 

595
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:23,100
affect and that isn't meant to 
sound, like some kind of like 

596
00:26:23,500 --> 00:26:27,700
political bad thing is more. 
Like, if you see that things 

597
00:26:27,700 --> 00:26:29,500
could be better. 
How can you build a network with

598
00:26:29,500 --> 00:26:32,300
other people to help make things
better together, the more people

599
00:26:32,300 --> 00:26:34,200
that you're connected to the 
wider? 

600
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:35,800
The organization is that your 
influence? 

601
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,900
Therefore you have a good reason
to network and get to know lots 

602
00:26:38,900 --> 00:26:41,500
of people because your influence
then spreads and gets bigger. 

603
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:44,500
So it's like fixing your team, 
making them impactful. 

604
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,100
Enter more people, building 
connections building 

605
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:49,000
relationships with people so 
that you can influence more 

606
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:51,000
people. 
He see it any company you work 

607
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:52,500
for. 
There's always a few people who 

608
00:26:52,500 --> 00:26:54,900
just like, why do I always hear 
about this person? 

609
00:26:54,900 --> 00:26:58,100
And like I always see their work
and like they're always involved

610
00:26:58,100 --> 00:27:00,100
in everything and it's not 
because someone is asking them 

611
00:27:00,100 --> 00:27:02,600
to it's just because they're 
really mastered this way of 

612
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,800
being like really helpful, 
really useful and being really 

613
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,000
influential with people. 
So I chose. 

614
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,500
This is also a good segue, 
moving into like working with 

615
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:12,800
individuals because obviously as
a manager, like you said, you 

616
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,600
want to increase the output of 
your team. 

617
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:17,100
And for that you need to work 
with individuals. 

618
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:19,700
First of all, I think this is 
one of the key thing as a 

619
00:27:19,708 --> 00:27:21,700
manager or any kind of 
leadership, right? 

620
00:27:21,700 --> 00:27:25,500
How do you delegate effectively?
And, again, coming from an icy 

621
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:27,500
background? 
I think, for someone who has 

622
00:27:27,500 --> 00:27:30,800
been doing things solo 
individually, inside outs from 

623
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:32,900
start to end. 
It's very hard to actually 

624
00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,700
sometimes delegate to other 
people, especially to someone 

625
00:27:35,700 --> 00:27:39,200
who is more junior or less 
experience or someone who don't 

626
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,800
even come from the same domain, 
as what he has been doing for 

627
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,300
many, many months for many 
years. 

628
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,800
So, how Actually be able to 
delegate to other people. 

629
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,300
Well, yeah, that's a really good
question. 

630
00:27:49,300 --> 00:27:51,000
And I think also manages 
struggle with her. 

631
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,600
Hence, the janitor things like 
I'll just sweep everything up 

632
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,700
after you. 
So firstly it's not a Boolean 

633
00:27:56,700 --> 00:27:58,600
thing of like I do it or you do 
it. 

634
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,400
That's the first thing to sort 
of look at it's not either/or. 

635
00:28:01,500 --> 00:28:05,400
It's actually kind of a spectrum
and it very much depends on the 

636
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,200
task that you're delegating. 
But one end of the spectrum 

637
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:09,900
where you don't delegate 
anything at all. 

638
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:11,300
You do it yourself. 
It makes sense. 

639
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:12,800
Right? 
It's like I'm doing this myself.

640
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,300
I'm not delegating anything and 
then at the the other end of the

641
00:28:15,308 --> 00:28:17,900
spectrum, I'm completely 
delegating this. 

642
00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:20,700
So you are doing it and those 
are the two ends. 

643
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,900
One thing that's important. 
Is that even if somebody else is

644
00:28:23,900 --> 00:28:25,800
doing it, a manager shouldn't 
delegate. 

645
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:27,900
The accountability for that 
thing to somebody else. 

646
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:30,000
Fundamentally the manager, still
accountable for everything 

647
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:32,100
that's happening. 
The best way to explain that is 

648
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:34,700
like if it all went wrong, who's
to blame in a way, and I don't 

649
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:37,500
mean this in a negative way, but
who does the buck stop with is 

650
00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:39,400
the manager. 
They are accountable for getting

651
00:28:39,500 --> 00:28:42,100
the team's work done. 
However, what you can delegate 

652
00:28:42,100 --> 00:28:44,200
is the responsibility for doing 
the task. 

653
00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:45,100
That's it. 
Thing. 

654
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:48,100
Because if you gotta get away 
with the accountability, then 

655
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,500
you basically abdicating saying 
this is my problem, and that's 

656
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,900
not a good thing because you 
have are not in control and then

657
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:56,700
it's a spectrum. 
So it isn't just, you do it or I

658
00:28:56,708 --> 00:28:59,000
do it. 
Fundamentally there is a scale 

659
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,600
and that scale, dictates how 
often you check in with people 

660
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,300
when they're doing things. 
How much mentorship they need. 

661
00:29:05,500 --> 00:29:07,900
How much of your time need to 
sit with them while they do it 

662
00:29:07,900 --> 00:29:11,200
or give them clear instructions.
And it's the manager's job 

663
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,200
effectively, for whatever is 
being done to work out. 

664
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,100
Who's there? 
A person and then also, where do

665
00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,800
they sit on that scale? 
So this task that is really easy

666
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,500
for this senior engineer to do. 
I can pretty much just hand it 

667
00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:23,800
over to them. 
They need just let me know when 

668
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,000
it's done or actually, is that 
an opportunity for a less senior

669
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,000
engineer to learn, and I could 
delegate it to them, but then 

670
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,800
I'll spend more of my time with 
them because maybe we need a 

671
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:35,400
program. 
They will need to look at it 

672
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:38,600
together or from just talk 
through the one other thing to 

673
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,900
unpack from. 
There is there's this education 

674
00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,800
Theory thing called the zone of 
proximal development, which is 

675
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,400
quite interesting. 
The idea is it comes from kids 

676
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,100
in schools, which is that you 
should always be trying to teach

677
00:29:49,100 --> 00:29:52,000
interior with two children. 
That's like just one step 

678
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:54,900
outside of their comfort zone 
because there's this zone of 

679
00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:57,600
proximal development where 
people really learn quite 

680
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,200
quickly with assistance. 
I mean, we've all seen it, like,

681
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:01,900
when we were in school, you 
could give them stuff, is too 

682
00:30:01,900 --> 00:30:03,400
easy. 
It's just like boring, you don't

683
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,500
learn anything. 
If you get give us something too

684
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,700
hard, you just get totally lost.
But if the teachers are able to 

685
00:30:08,700 --> 00:30:11,500
kind of identify material to 
give you this, like you built up

686
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:13,600
some scaffolding. 
And then the thing that you're 

687
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,500
learning next is like The next 
thing on the scaffolding then 

688
00:30:16,500 --> 00:30:19,600
it's like, okay, I'll get that I
can build on what I know and I 

689
00:30:19,608 --> 00:30:22,200
can learn that and then what, 
you know expands. 

690
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,200
So as a manager, it's like 
identifying things for people to

691
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,400
do where it's kind of things 
that just challenge them in life

692
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,800
that they're able to learn and 
they're interested and that's 

693
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,400
also part of the delegation 
things. 

694
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,700
I how can you give things to 
people to do? 

695
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:37,000
That's interesting. 
The Mixing Bowl and the 

696
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,500
challenges that because in a 
sort of a silly example, you 

697
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:41,800
could have like a senior 
engineer and a junior engineer. 

698
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,200
You okay? 
We're like the senior engineer 

699
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,600
gets all the hard stuff to do. 
Engineer gets all the easy 

700
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,100
stuff. 
And then you have two people 

701
00:30:47,100 --> 00:30:49,300
that just get bored and then 
they don't really progress. 

702
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:52,400
But if you mix it up enough, 
everyone has a mixture of work. 

703
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,700
I get challenged as mentorship 
opportunities. 

704
00:30:54,700 --> 00:30:57,900
So yeah, it's a Continuum and 
you have to pick her up place. 

705
00:30:58,500 --> 00:31:01,400
So let's say imagine you are 
manager of number of people, 

706
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,000
right? 
How do you track all these 

707
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,600
different delegation or do you 
work in a project management 

708
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,300
style? 
Or do you keep track? 

709
00:31:08,300 --> 00:31:10,700
Like again, coming back to your 
to do this or calendar? 

710
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:13,700
How do you actually keep track 
of each of these delegation and 

711
00:31:13,700 --> 00:31:16,000
the Spectrum? 
Which makes it even more 

712
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:17,700
variable like a lot of these 
things. 

713
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:20,600
How do you actually check in 
back about the status of the 

714
00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:22,300
project progress and things like
that? 

715
00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:26,800
Yeah. 
We tried not to use any 

716
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,300
additional methods or tooling 
really is kind of just a mindset

717
00:31:30,300 --> 00:31:33,300
that is liked into how we think 
about how the world extending 

718
00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:35,200
your team using it just as a 
check. 

719
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,800
Like when you say, for example, 
are you doing a Sprint planning 

720
00:31:37,900 --> 00:31:39,300
and people are sort of saying? 
Oh, yeah. 

721
00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:42,400
Well, I think I could do that 
and they always been that you 

722
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,400
could talk about who my best 
work or more. 

723
00:31:44,700 --> 00:31:46,900
To better improve the output of 
the team in the future. 

724
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,300
If you see that, there's a 
junior engineer about do 

725
00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:50,900
something that's quite 
difficult. 

726
00:31:50,900 --> 00:31:52,900
Can you as a manager identify 
that ahead of time? 

727
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:54,100
Oh, hey you, like let's sit 
down. 

728
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,200
You do that together to being 
with us a program that because 

729
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,300
you can identify that maybe if 
you sat with them and you give 

730
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:02,400
them some more mentorship and 
they would progress quicker. 

731
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,600
So it's less about having the 
spreadsheet and like each task 

732
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,100
to each person, but it's more 
just the way that you think 

733
00:32:08,100 --> 00:32:09,800
about the worst getting done 
every day. 

734
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,100
So another thing that is quite 
important for me personally, 

735
00:32:13,100 --> 00:32:15,100
right? 
I've been also, Not enough to 

736
00:32:15,100 --> 00:32:16,900
experience this. 
There's a good amount of 

737
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:20,500
spectrum of one on once between 
different manager and it's 

738
00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:22,300
somebody named. 
So I've experienced like a 

739
00:32:22,308 --> 00:32:24,000
weekly Cadence kind of 
one-on-one. 

740
00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,300
There are times where I don't 
have any one-on-one, except 

741
00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:30,200
maybe quarterly or maybe during 
performance review, or maybe 

742
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:32,900
just casual chat during lunch 
and dinner or whatever team 

743
00:32:32,900 --> 00:32:36,000
activities in your book. 
Actually, you Advocate having 

744
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,400
one-on-ones quite frequently. 
If not weekly. 

745
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,300
So, what is the reason the main 
motivation behind that? 

746
00:32:41,700 --> 00:32:44,300
This is your question. 
So I mean, I think it's less to 

747
00:32:44,300 --> 00:32:46,500
do. 
The output of the one to work on

748
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:50,400
or like the exact what you're 
doing, but for me is the more 

749
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,600
human personal reason? 
You're dedicating like some time

750
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:56,400
every single week with one of 
your staff just in front of is 

751
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,200
it shows that you care? 
It's also a safe private space 

752
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:01,600
where you can talk about 
anything. 

753
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:04,000
You will have 12 ones where you 
don't even talk about anything, 

754
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:06,100
super important, but the whole 
point is you're giving 

755
00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:08,400
opportunities to get to know 
each other better and to build 

756
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,700
trust because that's the 
foundation that all the 

757
00:33:10,700 --> 00:33:13,400
important stuff, bill on. 
I think also having that Weekly 

758
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:15,700
Cadence as well one. 
One is just nice to have habit 

759
00:33:15,700 --> 00:33:17,600
and routine again. 
You get it in the calendar. 

760
00:33:17,600 --> 00:33:20,200
You get it in to-do list, you 
forget about it just happens, 

761
00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:22,500
you know, after rather 
explicitly, but there's just so 

762
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:26,000
many things when it comes to 
people and these can be Career 

763
00:33:26,000 --> 00:33:29,500
Development conversations. 
These can be little frustrations

764
00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:32,800
that are building up with time. 
If all of these things sit for 

765
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,900
too long without any attention, 
they always boil up into 

766
00:33:35,900 --> 00:33:38,100
something that's just way bigger
than it needs to be. 

767
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,800
So if you don't have one to ones
with your staff at all and your 

768
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,000
staff really feels that they're 
underpaid or they really 

769
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,300
frustrated. 
Job, or they really annoyed 

770
00:33:46,300 --> 00:33:48,900
about their colleague and they 
just not got an opportunity to 

771
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:50,700
talk about it. 
Then what could be? 

772
00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:53,400
Just like you have a little chat
about it and it takes 10 minutes

773
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,000
and say okay. 
This is much problem. 

774
00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,400
Don't worry. 
We'll sort it out over a quarter

775
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,600
could become like I'm going to 
quit my job. 

776
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:01,900
If that person says that one 
thing once more with these 

777
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:04,400
things can really buckle up. 
So they just give that nice 

778
00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:07,200
opportunity for someone to just 
really continually unload their 

779
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:08,800
thoughts. 
And you can unpack how they're 

780
00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:10,800
thinking going back to the 
manager. 

781
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:12,199
Productivity thing. 
Like, you've got loads of 

782
00:34:12,199 --> 00:34:14,500
opportunities to help make 
decisions, too. 

783
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,000
To gather information to manage 
their thinking about. 

784
00:34:17,500 --> 00:34:18,800
How are you working on that 
problem? 

785
00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:21,800
So yeah, so I think probably 
going to store that data in 

786
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,000
radius and like, I think that 
probably a good way in order to 

787
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,900
get like, good cache, hit Ray 
and you so yeah, the right way. 

788
00:34:28,900 --> 00:34:30,400
Do you know, maybe what about 
this thing? 

789
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,699
And it gives you a chance to 
nudge every decision that 

790
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:34,600
they're making as well and have 
a lot more impact. 

791
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:38,500
So you measure about safe space.
That sometimes is a bit tricky. 

792
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,600
Like how do you actually 
cultivate a safe space during 

793
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:43,600
the one-on-one? 
Like for example, you mention 

794
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,000
about somebody who is Not happy 
about the situation or somebody 

795
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,300
and maybe they express that as a
manager. 

796
00:34:49,300 --> 00:34:52,400
You listen to that, how to build
that kind of safe space. 

797
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,900
Because of course, you want to 
take action about it, right? 

798
00:34:54,900 --> 00:34:57,200
You don't want to just be a 
channel where they just say 

799
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:58,700
something, but nothing is being 
done. 

800
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:01,000
So, what's the balance here? 
How do you create this safe 

801
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,800
space? 
So mean perhaps cool stuff is 

802
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,700
like making sure you have anyone
to ones in front room or if your

803
00:35:06,700 --> 00:35:08,900
home just in a zoom meeting 
somewhere, where you can't be 

804
00:35:08,900 --> 00:35:11,600
heard and fundamentally, both of
you can talk in confidence with 

805
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,600
each other, but one of the 
things I talk about in the A 

806
00:35:14,607 --> 00:35:17,100
book is this exercise called 
Contracting which is quite 

807
00:35:17,100 --> 00:35:19,400
useful. 
So usually you do it. 

808
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,300
When you first start managing 
somebody it gives you just a 

809
00:35:22,300 --> 00:35:24,400
bunch of questions to work 
through as manager. 

810
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,400
But also as a direct report to 
really talk about what does 

811
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,100
meeting up once a week me? 
Well, what sort of thing is 

812
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:32,300
you're going to talk about. 
I want things might need help 

813
00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:34,900
with, where might there. 
Be some frictions between both 

814
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,700
of you and your personalities. 
But then also what's important 

815
00:35:37,700 --> 00:35:39,900
is you can say what's the 
confidentiality of what we 

816
00:35:39,900 --> 00:35:42,900
talked about and just being able
to do that explicitly is really 

817
00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:45,700
powerful because if you've 
Christy told each other, but 

818
00:35:45,700 --> 00:35:47,600
hey, I everything we talked 
about in our meetings, totally 

819
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:49,900
confidential. 
And even if you come in here one

820
00:35:49,900 --> 00:35:53,200
day and you're so angry about 
the way that your colleague 

821
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,900
constantly does this thing, 
honestly, just vent, it's cool 

822
00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,100
that you can vent about it. 
I'm not going to say anything. 

823
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,000
It's safe. 
It's all cool. 

824
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,900
Being able to establish those 
boundaries ahead of time, just 

825
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:04,300
makes the whole thing much 
better. 

826
00:36:04,300 --> 00:36:06,000
And I think it just builds that 
report. 

827
00:36:06,100 --> 00:36:08,700
A manager can also do a report 
that, okay, every week when we 

828
00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:11,000
meet you always like bring up 
this particular thing that's 

829
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,600
happening. 
There's this really broken 

830
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,300
process. 
That's just be infuriating. 

831
00:36:14,300 --> 00:36:17,000
You Or like you keep saying that
the CI builds are slow, but you 

832
00:36:17,008 --> 00:36:18,700
know, that you can't do that 
much about it. 

833
00:36:18,700 --> 00:36:20,100
Should we actually do something 
here? 

834
00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:22,500
Like, how can I help you? 
And I think he's just always 

835
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:26,200
putting yourself forward as I 
will help you and support you in

836
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:28,500
whatever you're trying to do. 
Just let me know how I can do 

837
00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:30,900
that. 
So, another challenge as a 

838
00:36:30,900 --> 00:36:32,900
manager, right? 
If let's say, we are doing this 

839
00:36:32,900 --> 00:36:34,900
one on one very, very 
frequently. 

840
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,700
You will eat up a lot of your 
time. 

841
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:40,000
More meetings meeting, everybody
either like 30 minutes 1 hour, 

842
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,100
right? 
If I say you reach 20 people 

843
00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:44,400
under you, that's like 20 hours 
gone. 

844
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,700
Just having this one on one from
the week. 

845
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,100
So is there any limit on how 
many a manager should have this 

846
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:53,100
one-on-one? 
Yeah, I mean, I guess I could 

847
00:36:53,100 --> 00:36:55,100
reflect it and say I think 
there's a limit to how many 

848
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:57,900
people you can have reporting to
you and still be effective. 

849
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,200
I've heard people who've got 
like 50 direct reports. 

850
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,500
It's like really do you actually
spend good time with each of 

851
00:37:03,508 --> 00:37:05,700
those 50 people. 
How many hours a day do you 

852
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:07,900
work? 
So I've always said somewhere 

853
00:37:07,900 --> 00:37:09,500
between it depends on the 
person. 

854
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:12,800
I usually kept it as if I had to
do, everyone's 12 ones in one 

855
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,800
day, ideally one. 
Day of the week would be what it

856
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,700
would take up and it can depend 
on maybe you manage someone you 

857
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:21,300
only need like half an hour a 
week with them. 

858
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:23,600
Or maybe you only speak once 
every two weeks. 

859
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,200
But really I still tried to 
stick to that weekly hourly 

860
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:28,300
cones, even if you don't use the
time and that's cool. 

861
00:37:28,300 --> 00:37:31,300
If you don't use the time but 
really sticking to managing 

862
00:37:31,300 --> 00:37:34,500
seven people ish plus or minus 1
or 2 is about the limit. 

863
00:37:34,500 --> 00:37:38,100
I think my experience because 
anymore I don't think you can do

864
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:41,000
a good enough job of working 
with each of those people and 

865
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,000
also maintain the balance of 
taking part of doing the work 

866
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,800
with your And being a part of 
the wider department, so if 

867
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,500
you've got 20 people reporting 
to you, maybe talk to your 

868
00:37:50,500 --> 00:37:53,100
manager and say hey, we really 
promote somebody like another 

869
00:37:53,100 --> 00:37:57,800
manager. 
So also don't forget you are 

870
00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,000
having one-on-ones with your 
subordinates, but you also 

871
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,100
should have a one-on-one with 
your own manager. 

872
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:04,200
It's like chain on the top. 
You have more and more 

873
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,000
one-on-ones down to the bottom. 
You mentioned a lot of things 

874
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,200
about individuals. 
So now let's go to the bigger 

875
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:10,700
picture. 
There are two things that I 

876
00:38:10,707 --> 00:38:14,600
notice you say is hard in the 
book which are projects and The 

877
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,900
humans, I know like these things
might sound easy to figure out 

878
00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:21,600
their heart, but why 
specifically working with 

879
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,500
projects and humans are hard? 
Like, maybe you can tell some of

880
00:38:24,500 --> 00:38:26,100
the things that you find. 
Interesting. 

881
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,500
We are sure some of these 
churches kind of just have a 

882
00:38:28,508 --> 00:38:31,900
whole bunch of different so 
experiences and also just even 

883
00:38:31,900 --> 00:38:33,600
like, behaviors or various 
things. 

884
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:36,600
You see all the time. 
We all know that estimating 

885
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,700
software is hard. 
I how long is it going to take 

886
00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:40,600
to do this? 
You only really knowing when 

887
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,300
it's done. 
I tell you when it's done 

888
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:44,100
because then I'll just tell you 
how long it took, but that's not

889
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,200
good enough. 
Doing software project. 

890
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:49,000
Well is difficult and you could 
write an entire book on that. 

891
00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:51,900
But I just wanted to sort of 
highlight some of the techniques

892
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:54,500
really that as a manager, you 
could use to help you with your 

893
00:38:54,500 --> 00:38:58,100
prioritization to help you work 
better with your product owner, 

894
00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:00,800
product manager to talk about. 
Also the way in which people are

895
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,100
motivated, you know, the kind of
like, don't use the whip to get 

896
00:39:04,100 --> 00:39:06,300
people to do things. 
Don't be like, crunch time. 

897
00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:08,600
Let's get stuff done. 
You need to motivate people with

898
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,000
the car, instead. 
Where do people think about 

899
00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,400
their autonomy and Mastery and 
purpose and so on. 

900
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,600
How can you really Give people 
the skills to get interested in 

901
00:39:16,607 --> 00:39:18,600
what they're doing to really 
want to achieve. 

902
00:39:18,600 --> 00:39:22,100
And then the work is a side 
effect, really those two parts 

903
00:39:22,100 --> 00:39:26,000
are different scenarios that I 
think people will experience. 

904
00:39:26,100 --> 00:39:28,700
And one of the ones in the 
humans are B. 

905
00:39:28,700 --> 00:39:32,200
Is this Mount stupid concept, 
which is article on my website 

906
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:34,700
that gets the most hits I think 
because it's the first hit in 

907
00:39:34,700 --> 00:39:37,600
Google from that stupid, but 
it's just this phenomena of a 

908
00:39:37,607 --> 00:39:39,900
combination of impostor 
syndrome, which I think many 

909
00:39:39,900 --> 00:39:42,400
people experience. 
So you have these wonderfully, 

910
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,500
talented people but because 
either because I knew we had, 

911
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:48,200
they're doing some the first 
time they're not vocal enough. 

912
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,200
They don't speak up enough 
because they feel like an 

913
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,000
impostor and then almost the 
inverse of that problem as well,

914
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,900
which is the very senior people 
who are nowhere near the actual 

915
00:39:56,900 --> 00:40:00,300
day-to-day getting things done. 
Think they know everything and 

916
00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:02,600
this is horrible combination of 
these two things. 

917
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:04,500
At the same time. 
That means it's just, everything

918
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:06,100
always goes. 
Well, you've got it, the 

919
00:40:06,100 --> 00:40:09,200
executive who ends up putting 
the deadline on a project. 

920
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,100
Even though is the engineers, 
you should come up with a 

921
00:40:11,100 --> 00:40:14,400
deadline because they do it, but
it's really unpacking a lot of 

922
00:40:14,500 --> 00:40:17,600
These scenarios in like 
motivation of people, common 

923
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:20,000
themes, and fallacies in 
projects and just trying to give

924
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:21,900
the person reading the book. 
Like these are things, you'll 

925
00:40:21,900 --> 00:40:24,000
notice, don't worry. 
This is normal. 

926
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:27,300
And here are some ways that you 
can tackle, any good tips and 

927
00:40:27,300 --> 00:40:31,000
tricks from all your career 
experience so far on, what maybe

928
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:33,700
is framework strategies that you
can use to manage project? 

929
00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:37,400
Well, is it like the a gel thing
or is there any other thing? 

930
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,200
The best advice I can give is, 
it depends? 

931
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:42,700
I mean, that's the answer to any
complicated question is, it 

932
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:46,500
depends? 
I mean, I've Seen what in what 

933
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:50,100
ways he was abused scrum and 
it's what fine, but they've also

934
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:51,600
use scrum and it's worked 
terribly. 

935
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:53,600
I've seen people use canva 
brilliantly. 

936
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,600
I've seen the music terribly. 
I've seen people who literally 

937
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,900
do know planning at all and do 
amazing work and those that do 

938
00:40:59,900 --> 00:41:02,700
know planning at all when you 
terrible work, so there's no 

939
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:05,600
answer to this but really where 
it comes from it's just like 

940
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:08,600
understanding people 
understanding the type of work 

941
00:41:08,900 --> 00:41:11,800
and then just trying to pick 
some way of getting things done,

942
00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:14,000
the fits that particular 
projects and that particular 

943
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,300
people But I think as soon as 
you start to Force One Way, 

944
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:21,000
everything it starts to break 
but I mean, I can see these 

945
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,200
tendencies in any team any 
company's first of all, I don't 

946
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:27,000
know why they seem to like 
buying like Enterprise project 

947
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,800
management tools from the whole 
company. 

948
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:31,900
Everyone is just using that. 
Is that such a good idea or is 

949
00:41:31,900 --> 00:41:34,800
it better to have the team 
actually decide what tools they 

950
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,700
want to use the last year is 
beneficial, but you can also 

951
00:41:38,700 --> 00:41:42,100
sometimes see why people might 
want, everyone's work the same 

952
00:41:42,100 --> 00:41:43,600
way. 
Let's consider this. 

953
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,400
Like your See and you're like, 
okay, so I want to really 

954
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:49,900
understand what's going on in 
the whole software part of the 

955
00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,800
business. 
So what if everyone uses Euro 

956
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:56,500
and everyone does two-week 
Sprints and everyone reports in 

957
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:59,500
the same way, then surely that 
means that someone could write 

958
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:03,100
some wizard, your SQL thing, but
every two weeks would deliver 

959
00:42:03,100 --> 00:42:06,500
this amazing dashboard of the 
bundles of every team and I what

960
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:09,300
was achieved and then we can 
roll that all into the release 

961
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:10,800
list. 
I get that. 

962
00:42:10,900 --> 00:42:13,900
But does that ever work? 
I don't know and again, it 

963
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:16,000
depends. 
And I can see why people do it. 

964
00:42:16,100 --> 00:42:19,200
And sometimes people spend money
on tools when actually, what 

965
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:20,900
they should be spending time 
with his working, with the 

966
00:42:20,900 --> 00:42:23,500
people themselves to say, how 
can we work better? 

967
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:26,900
It's very interesting that you 
say that because a lot of 

968
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:29,300
manager, probably. 
I mean, I don't know if maybe 

969
00:42:29,300 --> 00:42:31,600
the traditional manager mindset 
is like they want 

970
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,800
predictability. 
The reason why they want all 

971
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,600
these analytics dashboards and 
things like that, if they want 

972
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,200
to be able to predict, which I 
think, again, coming back to 

973
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,200
software industry. 
It's sometimes difficult to 

974
00:42:41,207 --> 00:42:44,300
predict part of this also is 
like you mentioned in the book. 

975
00:42:44,500 --> 00:42:47,300
Letting go of control, right? 
Like probably you'd predict so 

976
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:50,600
much things will probably happen
in the right way anyway in the 

977
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,400
end. 
So how can a manager? 

978
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,400
Let go of control? 
This is I think one tough part, 

979
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,000
especially if you are still 
accountable for what people are 

980
00:42:58,008 --> 00:42:59,800
producing, you know, there's a 
problem. 

981
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,200
With the German thing that 
always works is how do I deliver

982
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,400
value quickly? 
If you're able to coach all of 

983
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,900
your staff, all of your team's 
to be like, whatever problem 

984
00:43:07,900 --> 00:43:09,900
you're working on as long as 
you're thinking about, what's 

985
00:43:09,900 --> 00:43:12,400
the highest impact thing that 
you can do in a short space of 

986
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,000
time, the doesn't obviously 
create like, A huge mountain of 

987
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:16,700
technical debt and horribleness 
as well. 

988
00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:19,400
That's a general good indication
of where you should be going and

989
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,500
if you can release frequently, 
that's great. 

990
00:43:21,500 --> 00:43:24,400
That's like the agile thing at a
super high level cool. 

991
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:26,700
But the letting go of control 
thing is interesting. 

992
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:29,000
I didn't use to have to worry 
about it so much when I was 

993
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:31,700
managing one team, but as soon 
as I started managing multiple 

994
00:43:31,700 --> 00:43:35,600
team, so I was managing 
managers, you get this strange 

995
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,700
feeling that, Hangar s, if 
there's 20 people reporting up 

996
00:43:39,700 --> 00:43:42,200
into me in some way. 
How do we even know what's going

997
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,300
on? 
And you're like a mime. 

998
00:43:44,500 --> 00:43:47,900
To know what's going on. 
Well, maybe and am I doing a 

999
00:43:47,908 --> 00:43:49,400
good job. 
I don't know. 

1000
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,500
This starts to get really 
difficult and then you think, 

1001
00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:52,700
okay. 
Well, I what is this mean? 

1002
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,800
How does like the CEO of a 
Fortune 500 company? 

1003
00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:58,200
Feel when they've got 10,000 
staff? 

1004
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,600
And they don't know what any of 
them are really doing and it's 

1005
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,000
like yeah, this is weird. 
So it's kind of building on that

1006
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,500
delegation thing of if you're 
able to really accurately Define

1007
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,500
what it is that you're 
accountable for. 

1008
00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:11,700
Then you've got a framework for 
delegating the responsibility 

1009
00:44:11,700 --> 00:44:14,200
for all of the different parts, 
the different people and then 

1010
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:15,600
you You can feel comfortable 
with it. 

1011
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:17,800
As long as you're delegating. 
Well, some people who are doing 

1012
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,700
a good job. 
Then you can feel comfortable 

1013
00:44:19,700 --> 00:44:22,100
with letting go of all the 
control of what's Happening you 

1014
00:44:22,100 --> 00:44:23,900
instead. 
Just have to set really clear 

1015
00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:27,100
expectations for this is what it
means to do a good job. 

1016
00:44:27,300 --> 00:44:31,500
And this is how we want to work 
together and go and then you can

1017
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:35,000
just manage your productivity 
things, nudging, people making 

1018
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:38,900
decisions gathering information 
and just being comfortable that 

1019
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:41,800
it's okay to not have to know 
exactly what's going on. 

1020
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,300
And then what's really nice 
actually, is that the more that 

1021
00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:47,800
Delegate way, not only does that
allow people to grow more, you 

1022
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:49,500
then free up more of your own 
time to do stuff. 

1023
00:44:49,500 --> 00:44:52,400
That's even more impactful and 
my role, for example, I worked 

1024
00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,900
really closely with the CTO in 
sort of department-wide strategy

1025
00:44:55,900 --> 00:44:58,200
stuff. 
So it's like, look, if all my 

1026
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,100
stuff taken care of by my 
team's. 

1027
00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:02,600
Then, can I help make our 
performance review, process 

1028
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,800
better? 
Can I make our process better? 

1029
00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:08,100
Can, I spend time getting better
benchmarks on pay, so that we 

1030
00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:09,700
can make sure that we're paying 
people fairly. 

1031
00:45:09,900 --> 00:45:11,800
Like, that's where you can then 
turn your attention to. 

1032
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:13,500
It's like you free up time to do
stuff. 

1033
00:45:13,500 --> 00:45:15,900
That's really impact. 
But yeah, for me personally, 

1034
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:19,100
those things are really, really 
one of the blind spot of a 

1035
00:45:19,100 --> 00:45:22,000
manager, especially coming from 
an individual contributor, 

1036
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,400
especially as an engineer, where
you probably have a good input 

1037
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,100
and the good output and in 
between you kind of know like 

1038
00:45:28,100 --> 00:45:29,800
where things go wrong or go, 
right? 

1039
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,700
So as a manager sometimes we 
don't know what's a good input. 

1040
00:45:32,700 --> 00:45:35,100
What's a good output? 
So it's really tricky and 

1041
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:38,800
difficult especially coming from
Individual contributor and the 

1042
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:42,900
letting go here is like okay 
accountable for what people are 

1043
00:45:42,900 --> 00:45:46,500
producing so I think I see 
mindset here is really, really 

1044
00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:50,000
tough. 
Any tips on how these ICS can 

1045
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,800
learn or can read or whatever 
that is to start having this? 

1046
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,100
Let go mindset here. 
I used to do with just being 

1047
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:58,800
really clear. 
What a success is, whatever it 

1048
00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:01,500
is that people are working on, 
but they're not getting so 

1049
00:46:01,500 --> 00:46:02,900
caught up on how people get 
their. 

1050
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:06,100
Everyone works in different way 
if you like super controlling 

1051
00:46:06,100 --> 00:46:09,200
and like right, you know, so we 
need to build this API and then 

1052
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,600
as soon as people start working 
on, so no like you need to 

1053
00:46:11,600 --> 00:46:14,000
extract your controllers, in 
your repository, is your middle 

1054
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:16,400
way. 
No, no, this way you need to let

1055
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:18,500
go of that. 
It's like we need to do this API

1056
00:46:18,500 --> 00:46:20,600
and it needs to work this way. 
Work it out. 

1057
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:22,500
Let's go and do it. 
Let's just get on with it. 

1058
00:46:22,500 --> 00:46:25,100
See what happens because people 
will take their own path to the 

1059
00:46:25,100 --> 00:46:27,800
outcomes as long as you decided,
what the outcome is, and is 

1060
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:30,900
clear and how to measure it, 
then just let people get their 

1061
00:46:30,900 --> 00:46:32,900
their own way. 
And that's actually a way better

1062
00:46:32,900 --> 00:46:35,800
thing because actually you learn
more you find that some of your 

1063
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:37,300
team do something in a 
completely different way than 

1064
00:46:37,300 --> 00:46:38,400
you expect. 
Wow. 

1065
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,300
That's way better than how I 
would have done it. 

1066
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:42,500
This is great. 
Nothing goes really positive. 

1067
00:46:42,500 --> 00:46:44,200
And as I said, it just reduces 
your own. 

1068
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,300
Anxiety over control and it 
allows you to spend more time on

1069
00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:51,100
impactful stuff as well. 
So what kind of balance do you 

1070
00:46:51,100 --> 00:46:54,600
have personally on spending time
on the day-to-day stuff as a 

1071
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,500
stinking, the things that you 
can improve, like what you 

1072
00:46:56,500 --> 00:46:58,500
mentioned? 
Improving calm improving, how 

1073
00:46:58,500 --> 00:47:01,200
you hire people, what kind of 
balance for a manager? 

1074
00:47:01,200 --> 00:47:04,600
They should spend their time. 
I would say, what works for me. 

1075
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:06,100
I can't say what works for 
everybody. 

1076
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,600
But usually if I back together, 
once ones, with my direct 

1077
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:12,000
reports, it's about day. 
I don't actually do them all in 

1078
00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,700
one day because I think I'd 
probably pass out if I I do them

1079
00:47:14,700 --> 00:47:16,800
all back to back. 
There's our one day, a week is 

1080
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,000
spent a month. 
Once I say, maybe half a day to 

1081
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,600
three quarters of a day. 
A week is on various kind of 

1082
00:47:22,607 --> 00:47:25,600
like group meetings. 
Like, the rmd leadership group 

1083
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:28,100
that meat is like an engineering
leadership group, and various 

1084
00:47:28,100 --> 00:47:29,600
kind of actions of things. 
Come out of that. 

1085
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:32,400
I try and block out like at 
least two days worth of time in 

1086
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,800
my calendar, for doing stuff and
that can change from week to 

1087
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:37,500
week. 
If it's the end of the year, 

1088
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:38,900
you're writing performance 
reviews. 

1089
00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,200
It could be that you're 
reviewing pull requests. 

1090
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,200
It could be that, you're writing
some documents up and designing.

1091
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,600
I knew it could be that you're 
writing up something as you say,

1092
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,200
you do Campo en crisis and so 
on. 

1093
00:47:49,500 --> 00:47:52,500
So I try and have two days a 
week that I have for that and 

1094
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:54,000
then the rest of it, I try and 
keep free. 

1095
00:47:54,300 --> 00:47:56,000
And then it's just kind of flex 
time for. 

1096
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:57,500
Okay. 
Well, I can work with people 

1097
00:47:57,500 --> 00:47:59,800
closely on something. 
I can ask some questions. 

1098
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:03,100
I also try and once a month meet
with some of my peers just have 

1099
00:48:03,100 --> 00:48:04,800
a. 
Once one of my peers and also 

1100
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,100
just some other people in other 
parts of the business that I 

1101
00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:09,100
know, provide really interesting
information. 

1102
00:48:09,100 --> 00:48:12,100
We can do that in both ways. 
One of my colleagues, heads up 

1103
00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:15,500
all of the measurement of all of
our naturalism product metrics 

1104
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:17,600
and business. 
So he has an amazing view on 

1105
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:20,200
revenue and churn. 
And it's like, what if I meet 

1106
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,200
once a month this guy he's 
talking about what's going on 

1107
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,000
was like, wow, that's great. 
I really understand all these 

1108
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,500
Frontline problems with the 
business and how we selling it. 

1109
00:48:26,500 --> 00:48:28,500
So, yeah, it's a mixture of 
those things. 

1110
00:48:29,100 --> 00:48:32,100
So, another classic thing for 
individuals to think about going

1111
00:48:32,100 --> 00:48:35,200
to this managerial role, right? 
There's this startup forces 

1112
00:48:35,200 --> 00:48:37,800
Enterprise and there are so many
startups these days. 

1113
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,800
There are so many also, a big 
Enterprise, some startups do 

1114
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,000
turn up into a big Enterprise as
well. 

1115
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:46,700
So, how should someone Actually 
way the dead decision whether to

1116
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:50,300
join as a manager in a start-up 
or to join as a manager and the 

1117
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:52,500
price. 
That's a really good question. 

1118
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,100
Yes, again, from my experience 
working in a larger Enterprise 

1119
00:48:56,100 --> 00:48:59,300
is a great way of hopefully, 
it's a good Enterprise. 

1120
00:48:59,300 --> 00:49:02,300
Having a whole bunch of support 
around you from the start. 

1121
00:49:02,300 --> 00:49:06,400
So if you join us and I see big 
tech company, you're probably 

1122
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:09,200
have established career tracks. 
You're probably have a good 

1123
00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:11,300
manager already. 
You'll be on that team. 

1124
00:49:11,300 --> 00:49:13,500
You'll have good colleagues. 
There's a whole lot of processes

1125
00:49:13,500 --> 00:49:15,600
and things that have already. 
Even works out and hopefully 

1126
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,600
they're good. 
Where if you just want to learn 

1127
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:20,500
and also get compensated. 
Well because if you join a big 

1128
00:49:20,500 --> 00:49:23,300
company, usually they pay higher
that starts to, it's a good 

1129
00:49:23,300 --> 00:49:25,700
place to learn the ropes. 
However, there are downsides, if

1130
00:49:25,700 --> 00:49:28,300
you join a very large company, 
then sometimes progression is 

1131
00:49:28,300 --> 00:49:30,800
difficult, especially, if you 
want to become a manager and go 

1132
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,500
down the management track 
because you're one of many, many

1133
00:49:33,500 --> 00:49:36,400
people. 
And if it's a large company 

1134
00:49:36,400 --> 00:49:38,700
depends, how quick it's growing.
Maybe the opportunities don't 

1135
00:49:38,700 --> 00:49:42,000
come up too much, but then if 
you are for taking a bit more 

1136
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,300
risk and maybe the upside of 
that risk is Foster personal 

1137
00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:47,500
development, then it starts up. 
Could be really good. 

1138
00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:49,600
So, that's where I think I was 
fortunate. 

1139
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,400
I joined the startup. 
It was very little people, but 

1140
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:55,200
then as the funding rounds came 
in and we hired lots of people, 

1141
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:57,300
suddenly, it was like, okay, we 
need teams. 

1142
00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:59,600
We need lots of teams. 
We need managers, those teams. 

1143
00:49:59,600 --> 00:50:01,900
We need managers and managers. 
And like suddenly all of these 

1144
00:50:01,900 --> 00:50:05,300
career progression things where 
I never done them before, but we

1145
00:50:05,300 --> 00:50:06,900
were kind of figuring out as we 
went along. 

1146
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,800
So I got the opportunity to try 
these things for the first time.

1147
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,700
If I was probably applying for 
that job at a larger Enterprise 

1148
00:50:12,700 --> 00:50:14,000
said, oh, yeah. 
I want to do director of 

1149
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:15,300
engineering. 
Cheering and I like, well, 

1150
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:17,900
you've only got like a couple of
years experience as an AM. 

1151
00:50:18,100 --> 00:50:20,100
We could just hire a more 
experienced director, from 

1152
00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:22,000
somewhere else. 
You have a better chance of 

1153
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:24,200
experiencing those things for 
the first time, it starts on. 

1154
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:27,700
So I didn't bother and question.
As a manager is that not every 

1155
00:50:27,700 --> 00:50:30,300
manager is successful on 
everything they do, right? 

1156
00:50:30,300 --> 00:50:32,800
Sometimes they will find 
failures a project failures 

1157
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:35,500
people quitting on them. 
Good, great people quitting on 

1158
00:50:35,500 --> 00:50:38,300
them, maybe not to say that they
are doing bad stuff, but it's 

1159
00:50:38,300 --> 00:50:40,000
just happened. 
Like the good people have better

1160
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,300
opportunities. 
So, how would you advise these 

1161
00:50:42,300 --> 00:50:45,700
managers on handling failure? 
What kind of mindset that should

1162
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:48,400
bring in order to, you know, 
overcome those failures? 

1163
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,300
Yeah, firstly, I never take it 
personally. 

1164
00:50:51,700 --> 00:50:54,200
It's hard, especially if you 
care a lot about your work and 

1165
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:56,400
you're really invested in your 
work, especially if you've got a

1166
00:50:56,408 --> 00:50:59,100
really good person on your team.
They leave, you can't help but 

1167
00:50:59,100 --> 00:51:00,700
take it personally, might just 
be that they want to do 

1168
00:51:00,700 --> 00:51:03,300
something different. 
Maybe their partner is got a job

1169
00:51:03,300 --> 00:51:04,700
somewhere else, and they're 
going to move. 

1170
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:07,800
So many reasons why someone 
might leave is rarely ever about

1171
00:51:07,800 --> 00:51:09,400
you. 
So it's rolling in that kind of 

1172
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,800
letting go of feeling 
personally, responsible for 

1173
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,500
everything stuff happens and you
just have to Deal with it really

1174
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:18,400
if you just always use every 
opportunity to learn something. 

1175
00:51:18,400 --> 00:51:21,400
So if a project is a complete 
disaster that although like 

1176
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,300
three to four things that you 
now know that if you did it, 

1177
00:51:24,300 --> 00:51:26,900
again would never happen. 
Most probably and then bring 

1178
00:51:26,900 --> 00:51:29,900
those into the next project, if 
somebody is left particular 

1179
00:51:29,900 --> 00:51:32,400
reason, is there something that 
you can learn from their 

1180
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:34,300
departure that can make it 
better for everybody else. 

1181
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,900
Is it because they were really 
frustrated about their pay for a

1182
00:51:37,900 --> 00:51:40,300
year or two years and they never
talked about it. 

1183
00:51:40,300 --> 00:51:42,500
Well, okay, that's a shame that 
happened. 

1184
00:51:42,500 --> 00:51:44,200
But next time with all of your 
existing. 

1185
00:51:44,300 --> 00:51:46,600
Of talk about the time, ask 
them. 

1186
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:48,200
What do they want to own in? 
The future? 

1187
00:51:48,300 --> 00:51:49,600
Was the routes for them to get 
there? 

1188
00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:52,400
Make sure that all the tasks 
frustrations and failures are 

1189
00:51:52,400 --> 00:51:54,500
things that you can roll into 
improvements to the Future, for 

1190
00:51:54,500 --> 00:51:56,700
sure. 
So James, thanks for spending 

1191
00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:58,800
your time. 
So I have one last question 

1192
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:01,000
which I normally ask for all my 
guests. 

1193
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:04,300
Would you like to share the tree
technical leadership wisdom from

1194
00:52:04,300 --> 00:52:08,300
all your experience, your career
for us to learn from you can 

1195
00:52:08,300 --> 00:52:09,900
try. 
So I thought about this when you

1196
00:52:09,900 --> 00:52:13,000
asked me before and three, I 
came up with the first one and I

1197
00:52:13,008 --> 00:52:16,000
think is especially true. 
Ooh, for management is the many 

1198
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,600
people experience a gap between 
their own personality and then 

1199
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:23,500
their work personality. 
So, like the personality of the 

1200
00:52:23,500 --> 00:52:26,400
manager or the leader. 
Like, I got to be this person. 

1201
00:52:26,400 --> 00:52:29,200
I've got a pretend to be this 
person and that just causes you 

1202
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,300
pain realizing that if you are 
able to get an engineering 

1203
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:34,200
manager, or that's because you 
can do it. 

1204
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,800
So, just be yourself. 
You don't have to pretend to be 

1205
00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:40,000
some manager person, or team 
leader person, just be you. 

1206
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,600
That's the best thing you can do
reduce the gap between your 

1207
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:45,200
personalities because it's 
Always, that's the first bit of 

1208
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:46,200
wisdom. 
This is the kind of 

1209
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,800
self-awareness thing. 
The second thing is, if you find

1210
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,200
yourself unable to justify 
something, then always 

1211
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:56,700
questioning companies, people 
teams projects all contain many 

1212
00:52:56,700 --> 00:53:00,400
bad decisions rarely because 
people are being silly or rarely

1213
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,000
because they're doing a bad job.
It's just all the sauce really 

1214
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:05,300
complicated. 
So I think always questioned 

1215
00:53:05,300 --> 00:53:08,400
things that you don't understand
or don't make sense. 

1216
00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:11,600
And if you have any kind of bad 
smells, like if there's a 

1217
00:53:11,600 --> 00:53:14,100
decision that just seems a bit 
weird follow up. 

1218
00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:15,000
And find out. 
Why? 

1219
00:53:15,300 --> 00:53:17,100
If there's a piece of 
infrastructure, we've got some 

1220
00:53:17,100 --> 00:53:19,000
be distributed system like once 
a week. 

1221
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:21,500
It goes down for half a second. 
Don't ignore that 12. 

1222
00:53:21,500 --> 00:53:23,500
That bad smell is probably 
something weird that you want to

1223
00:53:23,508 --> 00:53:25,600
check out. 
So always kind of like question 

1224
00:53:25,600 --> 00:53:28,200
things and follow your nose. 
And then the last thing I think 

1225
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:30,900
is even though software is 
really hard and people are 

1226
00:53:30,900 --> 00:53:34,200
really hard fundamentally. 
Everything can always be solved 

1227
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,500
by first principle was asking 
questions and Common Sense and 

1228
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:39,700
working together. 
I don't care how hard something 

1229
00:53:39,700 --> 00:53:41,400
is. 
You can always draw a little box

1230
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,500
diagram, this Narrows the 
explains the process and It 

1231
00:53:44,500 --> 00:53:46,900
becomes more simpler that point 
and you're able to talk to 

1232
00:53:46,900 --> 00:53:49,200
people about it. 
So nothing is ever as complex as

1233
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:50,600
it seems. 
And there's always a way 

1234
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:52,700
forward. 
Thank you so much for sharing 

1235
00:53:52,700 --> 00:53:55,200
those wisdom. 
So games for people who would 

1236
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,800
like to know or contact you 
further when I can find you. 

1237
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,700
Sure. 
So on Twitter is Jason, ESS jst.

1238
00:54:02,700 --> 00:54:05,200
Am I ER? 
I also run the engineering 

1239
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:08,700
manager.com., So one word, the 
engineering manager, and on 

1240
00:54:08,700 --> 00:54:10,300
those links to pretty much 
everything. 

1241
00:54:10,300 --> 00:54:12,600
I try and write every couple of 
weeks and there's a whole bunch 

1242
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:14,100
of stuff on there and looks the 
book. 

1243
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:16,600
And so I do highly recommend 
your book. 

1244
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:19,300
So for people who either like 
they are engineering manager, 

1245
00:54:19,300 --> 00:54:22,500
now or aspiring to be an 
engineering manager, so please 

1246
00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:24,100
check out the book. 
I think it's really cool. 

1247
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,800
I like it when I read it. 
It's really, really fun, and I 

1248
00:54:26,800 --> 00:54:29,300
can put myself in the shoes of 
the actor. 

1249
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:31,200
The figure inside the book, 
which is really fun. 

1250
00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:33,100
So, thanks again, James for 
spending your time. 

1251
00:54:33,100 --> 00:54:35,600
It's really great, and I wish 
you good luck in your career. 

1252
00:54:35,900 --> 00:54:43,300
Thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1253
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:46,000
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1254
00:54:46,100 --> 00:54:49,100
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1255
00:54:49,100 --> 00:54:52,400
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1256
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,700
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1257
00:54:54,700 --> 00:54:58,000
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1258
00:54:58,000 --> 00:55:01,400
review and feedback. 
It really, really helps me a lot

1259
00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:03,900
in order to grow this podcast 
better. 

1260
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:07,700
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1261
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:11,000
the Episode page at technology, 
know the death website, 

1262
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,400
including the full transcript, 
interesting quotes and links to 

1263
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,400
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1264
00:55:17,900 --> 00:55:20,800
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1265
00:55:20,800 --> 00:55:23,900
list on technology. 
No, the deaf to get notified for

1266
00:55:23,900 --> 00:55:26,800
any future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1267
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,200
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1268
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:30,000
Goodbye.