1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,700 In the tech space, we have a certain responsibility, we are 2 00:00:02,700 --> 00:00:04,900 creating things that crash. We are creating things that 3 00:00:04,900 --> 00:00:07,500 don't work. It's a reminder for me that, you 4 00:00:07,500 --> 00:00:10,600 know, when we do with software, when we develop it, and when we 5 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:15,800 deploy it, we are part of a larger system where our failures 6 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:18,300 in software are no longer about us. 7 00:00:18,300 --> 00:00:21,100 There are about other people. They become very visible in a 8 00:00:21,108 --> 00:00:24,000 world that runs on software. That becomes a problem point. 9 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,700 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya, we 10 00:00:31,700 --> 00:00:35,100 Robin. And you're listening to the 11 00:00:35,100 --> 00:00:38,300 technology, you know, podcast the show where I'll be bringing 12 00:00:38,300 --> 00:00:41,400 you the greatest technical leaders practitioners and 13 00:00:41,400 --> 00:00:45,200 thought leaders in the industry to discuss about their Journey 14 00:00:45,400 --> 00:00:49,900 ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a 15 00:00:49,900 --> 00:00:53,500 highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your 16 00:00:53,500 --> 00:00:56,700 personal work. So let's dive into our Journal. 17 00:01:01,700 --> 00:01:04,800 Hello to all of you, my friends and my listeners, welcome to the 18 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:07,700 package, you know, podcast the show where you can learn about 19 00:01:07,700 --> 00:01:10,800 technical leadership and Excellence from my conversations 20 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:13,000 with great thought, leaders in the tech industry. 21 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,500 If this is your first time listening to technology, you 22 00:01:15,500 --> 00:01:18,700 know, don't forget to subscribe and follow the show on your 23 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:22,300 podcast app and on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram and to 24 00:01:22,300 --> 00:01:25,300 support my journey. Creating this podcast, subscribe 25 00:01:25,300 --> 00:01:30,500 as a patron at technology. Not deaf / Patron, My guest, for 26 00:01:30,500 --> 00:01:32,500 today's episode is Carolyn honey. 27 00:01:32,900 --> 00:01:36,400 Carolyn is a consultant writer and speaker on software 28 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,600 development and he has written and edited several popular 29 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:43,000 software development books. In this episode, Carolyn shared 30 00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,700 his three favorite things. Every software engineer, should 31 00:01:45,700 --> 00:01:49,500 know, based on the two books, he edited 97 things. 32 00:01:49,500 --> 00:01:52,000 Every programmer should know, and 97 things. 33 00:01:52,100 --> 00:01:55,100 Every Java programmer should know, he explained the 34 00:01:55,100 --> 00:01:58,700 importance for developers of taking an occasional break when 35 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:01,400 working on deeper. Work putting code comments, 36 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:05,500 wisely, and using testing not just for checks but also for 37 00:02:05,500 --> 00:02:08,600 communication tool. Carolyn also brought up some 38 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,300 Timeless software development Concepts that every developer 39 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:15,300 should learn from the past such as cohesion coupling and code 40 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,500 quality. He also explained why he becomes 41 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:21,700 associated with public software failures, widely known as 42 00:02:21,700 --> 00:02:25,000 Carolyn, hennesy screens and how the trend started in the 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:29,300 beginning towards the end, Carolyn shared his views on why 44 00:02:29,300 --> 00:02:32,600 it is Important for developers to improve public, speaking 45 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,200 writing, and having more compassion towards each other. 46 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,600 I really enjoyed my conversation with Kathleen, Kathleen 47 00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:42,300 emphasized, many essential things. 48 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:45,600 Many of us software Engineers, tend to neglect, especially on 49 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:49,000 some Timeless Concepts such as cohesion, coupling and testing. 50 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:52,000 And I really like his explanation that many things in 51 00:02:52,000 --> 00:02:54,600 software development are about communication. 52 00:02:55,100 --> 00:02:57,800 And not always about the code. And its correctness. 53 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,700 If you find this episode useful, please help, share it with more 54 00:03:01,700 --> 00:03:04,000 people. So many more of us can also 55 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,100 benefit from listening to this episode. 56 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,200 Also, Leave this podcast of five star rating, and review on Apple 57 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:13,600 podcast and Spotify. It will help me a lot to make 58 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:16,400 this podcast easily, discovered by others. 59 00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:19,300 Before we continue to the conversation with Carolyn. 60 00:03:19,700 --> 00:03:21,900 Let's hear some words from our sponsors. 61 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:25,700 Today's episode is proudly sponsored by skills method. 62 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:29,700 The global community and events platform with more than 100,000 63 00:03:29,700 --> 00:03:33,500 software professionals here members, can organize their 64 00:03:33,500 --> 00:03:36,200 learning experiences around the technology topics. 65 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,500 They care about. Most you get on-demand access to 66 00:03:39,500 --> 00:03:43,200 their latest content thought, leadership insights, as well as 67 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:47,000 the exciting schedule of tech events running across all time 68 00:03:47,000 --> 00:03:49,400 zones. So whether devops our data 69 00:03:49,400 --> 00:03:53,400 science is your bus or you are fan of functional programming or 70 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,100 all things Cloud. You can make real connections 71 00:03:56,100 --> 00:04:00,200 with people who share your interests head on over to skills 72 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,500 method or Cam to become part of the tech community that matters 73 00:04:03,500 --> 00:04:06,100 most to you. It's free to join and you will 74 00:04:06,100 --> 00:04:08,400 find it easy. See to keep up with the latest 75 00:04:08,400 --> 00:04:12,400 tech Trends. Hello everyone. 76 00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:14,800 Welcome back to another new episode of the pycnogenol 77 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:18,899 podcast today, I'm very excited. I met someone who I went to a 78 00:04:18,907 --> 00:04:22,100 talk in 2013, which was a jail. Singapore. 79 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,200 And I saw his talk very inspiring. 80 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,600 I think he talked about architecture back then and since 81 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,300 then I followed some of his talks, I mean he's very 82 00:04:30,300 --> 00:04:31,800 influential in the tech industry. 83 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,800 A lot of keynote speakers and things like that and he wrote 84 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:37,800 some books as well. So if you know Oh, this series 85 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:41,000 called 97 things haven't actually help to edit a few 86 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,300 books, 27 things, every programmer should know, and 97 87 00:04:44,300 --> 00:04:46,000 things. Every Java programmer should 88 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:48,100 know. So Carolyn really looking 89 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:50,700 forward to have this chance to talk to you today, and welcome 90 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:52,800 to Tech to Juneau. Thank you very much for 91 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:54,400 inviting. Me Henry, great to be here. 92 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,800 So, Carolyn I always ask my guests to share your career 93 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,500 Journey. So make sure to maybe mention 94 00:05:00,500 --> 00:05:02,800 some highlights or turning points that you think are 95 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:07,500 interesting for the listeners to learn from Yeah, so I didn't 96 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:09,100 know that I was going to end up in software. 97 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,700 I don't think that was part of the plan, maybe something 98 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:13,700 technological, but I didn't know that either. 99 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:17,900 My first degree was in physics and I realized part way through 100 00:05:17,900 --> 00:05:19,700 that. Although I had some interest in 101 00:05:19,700 --> 00:05:23,100 the sciences and physics, this was not the direction I wanted 102 00:05:23,100 --> 00:05:26,000 to take. And I had been reading a lot of 103 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:29,800 stuff on at the time, Ai and just learning about all kinds of 104 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,400 interesting things to do with computers. 105 00:05:31,400 --> 00:05:33,800 It was a good distraction. I kind of finish my degree. 106 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:35,000 I had no idea what I was going to. 107 00:05:35,100 --> 00:05:37,900 Do in a friend of mine said, Hey Kevin, I've just gone for a job 108 00:05:37,900 --> 00:05:40,500 interview at a company and they're looking for programmers 109 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:42,500 and you don't have to have a programming experience and I 110 00:05:42,508 --> 00:05:44,700 thought, well, I've got some programming experience from my 111 00:05:44,700 --> 00:05:47,700 degree and also being interested in home computers originally, I 112 00:05:47,700 --> 00:05:51,100 just went along and kind of that got me into this. 113 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:54,500 And by the most interesting things, the work itself was not 114 00:05:54,500 --> 00:05:57,500 necessarily that interesting. Although hindsight I think there 115 00:05:57,500 --> 00:05:59,000 were some really interesting opportunities. 116 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,600 What was interesting is that my boss had this bookshelf, this 117 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:06,500 huge book shelf of books that Were absolutely nothing to do 118 00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:09,600 with anything that we were working on and I started reading 119 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:11,900 up on computer science and programming languages. 120 00:06:11,900 --> 00:06:13,900 I think programming language is absolutely fascinating. 121 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:17,600 I had no idea at this point. I was just looking through this 122 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,200 stuff and this is great. I really into this absolutely 123 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,600 fascinated by this. And after a couple of years, I 124 00:06:23,608 --> 00:06:25,400 decided I want to take a different direction. 125 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:28,500 I'd started learning about object, orientation and coming 126 00:06:28,500 --> 00:06:30,600 across these ideas. And I thought I want to do 127 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,100 something else, but I decided actually I do a master's degree 128 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:37,200 in parallel computers. Systems, which happened to have 129 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:39,200 some of the AI stuff. I was interested in, but I also 130 00:06:39,200 --> 00:06:41,800 realized it was a lot of good programming Paradigm stuff in 131 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,900 there that kind of sealed the deal for me is like, yeah, 132 00:06:44,900 --> 00:06:47,200 you're going to be in software development, that's the way it 133 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:48,900 goes. And so, I ended up working after 134 00:06:48,900 --> 00:06:52,100 that procedure is companies, typically was kind of back-end 135 00:06:52,100 --> 00:06:54,700 or embedded type stuff. Although I did do a whole lot of 136 00:06:54,700 --> 00:06:58,500 UI stuff relatively early on, but eventually there came to be 137 00:06:58,500 --> 00:07:00,800 a point where I was getting really frustrated with company 138 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,600 politics. I think a lot of people work in 139 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:04,900 environments where I was just like, yeah, I'm enjoying the 140 00:07:05,300 --> 00:07:07,600 Yes, there's my colleagues. This is all good. 141 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,000 I'm enjoying all of the technical challenges, but the 142 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,600 politics and the people stuff can kind of weigh you down. 143 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:16,200 And I reached a kind of Crossroads thinking well, what 144 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,100 am I going to do with this? You know, I've got this 145 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:21,400 interest, but I didn't feel like where I was working was working 146 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,100 out for me. I would far too often come into 147 00:07:24,100 --> 00:07:27,300 conflict with company called sex and I eventually decided, okay, 148 00:07:27,300 --> 00:07:29,100 I'm going to take a completely different direction. 149 00:07:29,500 --> 00:07:32,100 I'm going to go into training and consultancy, so I joined 150 00:07:32,100 --> 00:07:34,300 another fertilizer. I'd been doing some Contracting 151 00:07:34,300 --> 00:07:36,100 at that point. Which is kind of a good way to 152 00:07:36,108 --> 00:07:40,200 seal yourself off from craziness up to a point but that's where I 153 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,000 really discovered, I really enjoyed. 154 00:07:42,000 --> 00:07:45,500 I really enjoyed when I was a team leader, I really enjoy the 155 00:07:45,500 --> 00:07:47,900 kind of like the connections that I was making these people. 156 00:07:47,900 --> 00:07:51,500 I enjoyed the use of white board discussions. 157 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:55,000 I enjoyed writing, I'd written a number of Articles and I was 158 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,800 writing more and more articles and this was kind of this 159 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,300 opportunity to use your knowledge and frame it 160 00:08:00,300 --> 00:08:02,700 differently and it also changed the way that I thought about 161 00:08:02,700 --> 00:08:06,000 software development as well when you Communicating it, you 162 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,200 start realizing the, you know what some of those really great 163 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:12,100 ideas you had, they don't sound so good when you say them, 164 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,000 they're great in your head. When you try to explain the to 165 00:08:15,000 --> 00:08:17,200 other people, you get a very different feedback loop. 166 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:20,000 And I think that's really where I started appreciating much more 167 00:08:20,000 --> 00:08:23,200 the social side but also how much I got out of communicating 168 00:08:23,200 --> 00:08:25,100 things. So from that point on, I knew 169 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:26,700 that that was going to be part of my work. 170 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:28,100 That's how I thought about stuff. 171 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,900 That actually the process of training people had allowed me 172 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:33,299 to be a better programmer and I found so many different 173 00:08:33,299 --> 00:08:38,000 connections that and Really, I decided many years ago, I would 174 00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:41,200 go independent fully autonomous and I've been that way ever 175 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:44,800 since my work is kind of flowed between kind of workshops and 176 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:48,300 training and consultancy and coaching and writing. 177 00:08:48,300 --> 00:08:50,800 So I get to choose a lot of the mix of what I'm doing. 178 00:08:51,200 --> 00:08:54,000 I went to a, there's Betty major turning point since then. 179 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,100 Because for me it's all one big flow of many possibilities 180 00:08:57,300 --> 00:09:00,200 sometimes, one month is the same as the next and other times. 181 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,000 I might be doing something completely different. 182 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,500 I guess the only other thing that really changed was the 183 00:09:04,500 --> 00:09:06,900 pandemic. She completely online which has 184 00:09:06,900 --> 00:09:10,100 allowed me to change the way that I run an offer things like 185 00:09:10,100 --> 00:09:13,300 workshops training and also talks they tend to do a lot more 186 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,700 specific talks for companies these days sometimes in person 187 00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:20,800 but a lot of the time online and that I find for me that's always 188 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:22,900 a great discovery against that communicating things. 189 00:09:22,900 --> 00:09:26,700 I tend to learn a great deal by trying to communicate my 190 00:09:26,700 --> 00:09:28,500 thoughts. In other words, I thought I knew 191 00:09:28,500 --> 00:09:30,800 something and then I tried to communicate it and I normally 192 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:33,700 see more opportunities in it. More possibilities all the 193 00:09:33,700 --> 00:09:35,800 flaws. In what I've just I said become 194 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,100 much more obvious. So for me, that is part of what 195 00:09:40,100 --> 00:09:42,100 kind of keeps me going. It's not going to be the same 196 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:45,000 for everybody, but for me that's one of the things that unlocked 197 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,400 some of the more interesting parts or software development. 198 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:50,700 Thanks for sharing your story. I think it's pretty interesting. 199 00:09:50,900 --> 00:09:54,400 When you mention about finding Fascination in writing speaking 200 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:57,700 and getting feedback loops, I always find you pretty natural 201 00:09:57,700 --> 00:09:59,900 in speaking and engaging with audience. 202 00:09:59,900 --> 00:10:02,800 I think that's really cool and I think for those listeners who 203 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,700 also aspire to be not just a coder, Later on we will discuss 204 00:10:05,700 --> 00:10:09,600 how you can follow K Journey, maybe to write more and speak 205 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:13,000 more in order to get that social aspect of the software 206 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:15,600 development as well. Maybe, let's start with some of 207 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,000 the things that you edit it from your books, 97, things, every 208 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,700 programmer should know, maybe if you can distill three to five 209 00:10:22,700 --> 00:10:26,200 key lessons, because we won't be able to cover 97 thing's for 210 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:27,100 sure. What would be. 211 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:30,400 Some of your advice for developers here, what things 212 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,600 they should know what God said it should avoid, or maybe just 213 00:10:33,600 --> 00:10:35,000 some things that you think they should. 214 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,100 A should you know, dive deeper? Yeah, I think that's an 215 00:10:38,100 --> 00:10:40,600 interesting one because obviously there are 97 things in 216 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,100 each of the every program should know and every Java program 217 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,000 should know. So therefore what are three or 218 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,400 five that I would choose. It's difficult to pick favorites 219 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:50,000 but actually what I might do. The easiest way for me to kind 220 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:53,400 of pick a few is just a think of the ones that I've used in the 221 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:56,400 last week or directed people towards in the last week. 222 00:10:56,700 --> 00:11:00,300 Here we are 20 22.97 things. Every program should know that 223 00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:04,300 book was published in 2010 and 97 things every child program. 224 00:11:04,300 --> 00:11:07,300 She knows probably In 2020. But the funny thing is the first 225 00:11:07,300 --> 00:11:09,900 books 12 years old. Now and 12 years is a long time 226 00:11:09,900 --> 00:11:13,700 in software development and yet I keep going back to the pieces 227 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:16,500 of advice in that book because they are relatively Timeless, 228 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,500 you won't find mention of microservices, but you will find 229 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:22,000 mention of functional programming, you will find 230 00:11:22,000 --> 00:11:25,300 mention of caring about your dependencies in your structures 231 00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:28,400 and the rest of it, the names that we use for various things 232 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:32,100 have shifted, but actually a lot of the interests and good ideas 233 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:34,600 are surprisingly stable and timeless. 234 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,400 So I often use these in my tools because I think it's also good 235 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,100 to point out whenever I'm talking I tend to regard what 236 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:41,900 I'm doing. As I'm a Clearinghouse 237 00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:44,600 everything, I teach or communicate, typically came from 238 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,100 somebody else and if synthesizing these and put 239 00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:48,300 together. So I think it's always really 240 00:11:48,300 --> 00:11:51,700 kind of important to highlight that in the last week. 241 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:54,600 One of the ones that I've certainly referred to is 242 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:57,500 birkhoff naugles. Piece in 97 things. 243 00:11:57,500 --> 00:11:59,700 Every program should know. He also contributed a Java 244 00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:02,500 program should though, but the one that I always come back to, 245 00:12:02,500 --> 00:12:05,900 in 97 things, every program should note is the Entitled, put 246 00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:07,900 down your Mouse step away from the keyboard. 247 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:10,300 I like this because it works on two levels. 248 00:12:10,300 --> 00:12:13,200 First of all, there is the general advice of the peace 249 00:12:13,500 --> 00:12:16,300 which is exactly captured in its title. 250 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,200 The idea is that sometimes when you've been working, when you've 251 00:12:20,200 --> 00:12:23,000 been beating your head against a problem too closely, you've 252 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,800 exhausted everything that you can do at that level that 253 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,700 detailed level, where you are concentrating intensely looking 254 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:33,000 at the screen that line of opportunities run dry. 255 00:12:33,000 --> 00:12:34,900 Otherwise you have solved it, you've done everything. 256 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,100 Nothing you can at this level and doing more of it is not 257 00:12:38,100 --> 00:12:40,500 going to help. So therefore this point thing 258 00:12:40,500 --> 00:12:43,600 you have to do is disconnect disengage go do something else. 259 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:47,700 And I think that the lesson of this is psychological in the 260 00:12:47,708 --> 00:12:50,200 sense that this tells us a little bit about how the brain 261 00:12:50,200 --> 00:12:53,100 works. That you are very much in this 262 00:12:53,100 --> 00:12:55,700 kind of focused style of thinking, which is not 263 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:58,800 necessarily creative, you may be focused on detail. 264 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:01,100 You'll try to understand how things fit together, very 265 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:04,900 detail-oriented, very procedural and that flushes out certain 266 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,700 Also, problems and issues. But the associative connection 267 00:13:09,700 --> 00:13:13,800 oriented style of thinking, the more lateral thinking, that 268 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,500 doesn't normally happen at the same time or you can't force it 269 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:19,000 on. And that I think is also a huge 270 00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:22,100 reminder to us because I think many people work in environments 271 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,200 where the most common thing I get asked. 272 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,800 What if we don't have time, we don't have time for this and 273 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,500 it's just like, you know what you do have time. 274 00:13:29,500 --> 00:13:32,600 It's just that the thing, you're not good at and I don't mean you 275 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:34,800 as picking somebody else. I mean, you as a human being 276 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:38,000 Being and not necessarily good at is knowing how to use your 277 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:39,700 time. This is not a strength that we 278 00:13:39,700 --> 00:13:42,500 have with very poor at this. Then actually, if you want to 279 00:13:42,500 --> 00:13:45,100 save time then stop working. This is counter-intuitive. 280 00:13:45,100 --> 00:13:47,100 Some people, I know I need to put in more hours. 281 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:49,000 I need to put in two more hours on this problems. 282 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,000 Like actually you're probably going to solve that problem by 283 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,000 not working on it. Go and do something else. 284 00:13:53,300 --> 00:13:56,200 The solution will come to you you know five minutes you'll 285 00:13:56,200 --> 00:13:58,700 have solved it you can't tell. When that five minutes is going 286 00:13:58,700 --> 00:14:00,900 to be, maybe it's while you're having breakfast, maybe it's why 287 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:03,800 sharing, maybe it's while you're on the subway, on the way home, 288 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:06,600 the point there is that Once you've let go, your brain is 289 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:11,000 just no longer concentrating on that and the ideas will connect. 290 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:13,100 You got to kind of trust the fact that you're not trying to 291 00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:15,000 control the process that it'll happen. 292 00:14:15,100 --> 00:14:18,000 So that's the kind of the broad message was peace, but I also 293 00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:20,700 like his peace because he shows a concrete example where he 294 00:14:20,700 --> 00:14:23,800 experienced this, it's a piece of code and he shows us the 295 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,100 tidied up version. He shows us the piece of code 296 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:28,900 after it's been reflected and it's really messy and 297 00:14:28,900 --> 00:14:32,500 complicated and procedural. He does the right thing but then 298 00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:35,200 he steps away and realizes Know what? 299 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:36,800 This is just a pattern matching problem. 300 00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:39,400 I'm trying to approach it with kind of ifs. 301 00:14:39,700 --> 00:14:41,300 That's what I tend to see in a lot of code. 302 00:14:41,300 --> 00:14:43,400 Oh yeah you're trying to solve the problem by using a lot of 303 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:46,000 ifs. It's this otherwise it's just 304 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,400 like there's something simpler waiting to happen and you just 305 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,700 don't know what it is. He reveals that it's one of 306 00:14:50,708 --> 00:14:53,800 those things like take the foot off the pedal and a lot of 307 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,500 things get solved. So thinking is important in 308 00:14:56,500 --> 00:14:58,900 software development therefore you got to learn there are 309 00:14:58,908 --> 00:15:01,300 different ways of thinking and some of those are not about 310 00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,800 pushing yourself there. Exactly about pulling yourself 311 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,100 away, the exact opposite. So I really like that piece 312 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:08,400 because it has a detailed technical message showing us 313 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:10,800 perhaps where unmanaged technical debt comes from and 314 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,500 how code can become complex through no fault of our own. 315 00:15:13,900 --> 00:15:16,400 But it also shows us the relationship that we have with 316 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:20,300 time and our attention and Co so that one I think for me always 317 00:15:20,300 --> 00:15:21,600 sticks out as a, quite a big one. 318 00:15:22,100 --> 00:15:24,400 Another one I'm going to pick on although this is a little bit 319 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,200 self-serving because I wrote it, but it seems to come up a lot in 320 00:15:27,208 --> 00:15:30,500 the last couple of weeks, the title tells you everything, it 321 00:15:30,500 --> 00:15:34,000 is a piece on comments, comment only what the code cannot say, 322 00:15:34,300 --> 00:15:35,800 the whole question. I have comments is an 323 00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,400 interesting one in software because comments are code. 324 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,300 That is not code. You know, as they don't have a 325 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:43,600 formal syntax, they are code, that is not cone which means 326 00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:45,600 that they don't get checked for correctness. 327 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,400 Most comments are wrong and if they don't start out that way, 328 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,000 they become that way. But because they don't trigger a 329 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:54,200 compiler error and they don't fail a test and they don't cause 330 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:56,400 a bug. Our attention is not drawn to 331 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:58,800 them. So they don't have a process 332 00:15:58,800 --> 00:16:01,300 that causes us to correct. If you broke the build, you're 333 00:16:01,300 --> 00:16:02,700 going to go and fix something, okay? 334 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,800 That's the thing. But if your Punctuation is a 335 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:06,800 Messy and your comments. That's not going to cause 336 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:08,700 anything. If you're stating things that 337 00:16:08,700 --> 00:16:11,900 are factually incorrect, that's not going to cause anything. 338 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,100 And so people have these various different philosophies of 339 00:16:15,100 --> 00:16:16,900 comments, and it's an interesting one because it's a 340 00:16:16,900 --> 00:16:19,000 kind of like we have this absolute freedom. 341 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:21,100 Absolute freedom is a quite a frightening thing. 342 00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:22,700 People don't know what to do with it. 343 00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:24,900 And so we have these observations about, okay? 344 00:16:24,900 --> 00:16:27,100 Your comments, become out-of-date more rest of it. 345 00:16:27,100 --> 00:16:29,000 But we also have this desire to be helpful. 346 00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:32,000 We want to help people. There are two extreme schools in 347 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:34,700 this one school. People is like, don't comment 348 00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:37,700 your Code, all comments are bad. Always kind of star. 349 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,500 Your code should be self documenting from one 350 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:43,000 perspective, I look like, I lean a little bit more towards that 351 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:45,900 camp but my system of belief on this one is slightly different 352 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:47,600 to the way that these are articulated. 353 00:16:47,900 --> 00:16:50,500 The idea is, I don't think that all comments are necessarily 354 00:16:50,500 --> 00:16:52,500 bad. That's not the useful position. 355 00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:55,800 I also don't think that saying that you shouldn't have comments 356 00:16:55,900 --> 00:16:57,800 in automatically improves your code. 357 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,400 Although I've seen coat which would be improved by deleting 358 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:03,500 the comment, I don't think it's an automatic consequence. 359 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,500 So there's a lack of nuance. For most devices, like don't 360 00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:09,700 comment your code. Lacks intelligence Nuance, you 361 00:17:09,700 --> 00:17:12,800 want to understand why? But at the other end, the 362 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:15,599 common, everything crowd is just like it's just noise. 363 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,500 And I've seen far too many examples of that fail. 364 00:17:18,700 --> 00:17:21,700 So, the way to understand this is don't comment what the code 365 00:17:21,700 --> 00:17:24,200 already says, that's a fairly standard piece of advice, that 366 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:25,700 tells us some of the things we don't want to do. 367 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:30,300 But there's a really interesting connection here between 368 00:17:30,500 --> 00:17:32,900 understanding what it is that you're trying to communicate. 369 00:17:32,900 --> 00:17:34,700 So for me there's a deep message here. 370 00:17:34,900 --> 00:17:38,600 What am I trying to say? How am I communicating and what 371 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:43,400 is then said in your code and for me that's the driver is like 372 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,600 what can I say, why would I want to put a comment here? 373 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,300 I would want to put a comment here because the code is not 374 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:51,200 obvious. It doesn't say what I, it's not 375 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:53,100 obvious, what I'm saying. Okay. 376 00:17:53,100 --> 00:17:55,400 So recognize that as a neat, that doesn't mean you need a 377 00:17:55,408 --> 00:17:58,600 comment yet, it just means, oh, there's a communication 378 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,100 shortfall between what I'm looking at on the screen. 379 00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:03,200 What I've just created perhaps, or what somebody else has 380 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,500 created. There's a Caishen gap between 381 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,800 that and the thoughts in my head, what I feel. 382 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:11,800 I want communicate. We're not saying everything that 383 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,300 we want to, so that's a good first candidate for baby why we 384 00:18:15,308 --> 00:18:17,700 want to comment, but don't do it just yet. 385 00:18:17,700 --> 00:18:20,700 If what is it that you would want to say and then suddenly 386 00:18:20,700 --> 00:18:23,200 say hang on. Could I say that in the code? 387 00:18:23,300 --> 00:18:25,900 Could I say that in the thing that is going to get checked? 388 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:27,900 Or am I just apologizing for the code? 389 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:32,100 In other words, if I've got a variable a and I put a comment A 390 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,500 is for altitude, then I'm In for the code. 391 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:38,000 Why don't I call it altitude? There you go. 392 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,300 I've got a better name for it and I was, I can say it in the 393 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,600 code. If I got a big block of code and 394 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:44,500 I've got a big banner up at the front. 395 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:46,900 Let's go like, well why is this not a method? 396 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,700 Because that's what a method is. It's a named block of code. 397 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,500 You know, when we see large methods that are hundreds, if 398 00:18:53,500 --> 00:18:55,900 not thousands of lines long, there are two thoughts. 399 00:18:55,900 --> 00:18:58,400 Here is just like, why we not factoring this out into methods? 400 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,500 That's what therefore, they are blocks. 401 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:02,400 That is what a method is fundamentally. 402 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:05,300 It is a catcher block with a name and a Clear set of 403 00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:07,400 parameters. And if that deserves, an 404 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,100 appropriate, javadoc style Comet, then that's fine because 405 00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:12,700 that comment is for external documentation, it's not for the 406 00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:15,900 reader of the code, it's for the user that belongs to 407 00:19:15,908 --> 00:19:18,800 documentation, says, post being something that is in line with 408 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,000 it. So that leads to the advice. 409 00:19:21,100 --> 00:19:24,200 Comment, only what the code cannot say, not what the code 410 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,900 does not say, but what can't it say, in other words, what can I 411 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:31,600 do to get to the point and that the way I often motivate people, 412 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,700 imagine you didn't have comments in your language now, right? 413 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:37,400 Code, write the code if you didn't have God. 414 00:19:37,700 --> 00:19:40,700 Right now you've done that. Is there anything else you'd 415 00:19:40,700 --> 00:19:43,500 like to say to the reader? You've said, everything you 416 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,500 possibly could. Whatever is left, is the thing 417 00:19:46,500 --> 00:19:48,800 that cannot be easily communicated that you couldn't 418 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:50,800 say in the language. Now, you have your comments back 419 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,100 again and at that point, your comments increase in value. 420 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,900 That's the key to have things that are of value. 421 00:19:57,200 --> 00:19:59,200 One of the ways we drive value is scarcity. 422 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,600 A kg of iron is worth significantly less than the kg 423 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:04,600 of gold. Although iron is technically 424 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:06,600 more. Useful, as a material, the 425 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,900 higher value, gold is defined by scarcity. 426 00:20:08,900 --> 00:20:12,100 If you had as much gold in the world, as there is iron, a kilo 427 00:20:12,100 --> 00:20:14,500 of gold be worth a lot less than a kilo of ironing. 428 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,800 Not a very useful substance in that quantity. 429 00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:20,400 So the idea there is scarcity helps to find the values. 430 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:22,200 You put comments everywhere they worth nothing. 431 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:24,500 So for me, that's something I find. 432 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,500 I'm communication to people. It's much more balanced way of 433 00:20:27,508 --> 00:20:30,500 thinking and it caused me to think about how do I value 434 00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:31,600 these. What do I think? 435 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:33,200 Is a useful way of thinking about this? 436 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,800 Probably a third piece. I don't think there's a specific 437 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,600 therapies except that I would say, what's interesting in both 438 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:42,100 of the books that 97 exemplary program should notebook. 439 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:44,100 And then I've said, things, every Java program should do 440 00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:48,200 book is there is a really strong emphasis people have really 441 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,200 consistent on testing. I got a lot of pieces and very 442 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,100 well, written pieces on test this idea that as part of the 443 00:20:55,100 --> 00:20:57,900 coding cycle, that is part of the fabric of software 444 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:00,000 developers, not something else, it's not there as software 445 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,000 development and there is testing, testing is a part of 446 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,900 software. Element that is a consistent 447 00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:07,700 view that has been with us for a while. 448 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:10,700 But perhaps I think there is continued scope for improvement 449 00:21:10,700 --> 00:21:13,000 on that. I think we can always do that. 450 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,100 We can always do that better. And in fact there's a really 451 00:21:15,100 --> 00:21:17,700 nice piece in 97 things, every Java programmers should know 452 00:21:17,700 --> 00:21:20,500 from research Van Dyke on this where she really breaks down the 453 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:22,400 value of communication in testing. 454 00:21:22,800 --> 00:21:26,900 So you can actually find all the book items online, somebody 455 00:21:26,900 --> 00:21:29,700 moved in to get books. I intentionally created book 456 00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:32,100 with a Creative Commons license, so that people could do that. 457 00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:35,400 So there's a gift box version of it. 497 things every Java 458 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:39,100 programmer should know. We took submissions through 459 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:43,600 Medium as well as through a kind of Google form style thing but 460 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:45,500 all the medium stuff is still online. 461 00:21:45,900 --> 00:21:49,500 Including use testing to develop better software Faster by Marie 462 00:21:49,500 --> 00:21:51,800 Van dijk, Marie breaks down really. 463 00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:53,700 The intention about what makes a good test. 464 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:56,300 That's the other thing that I think is really important is the 465 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:58,500 idea again. Think of your testers, 466 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,000 communication tests are not merely checking anybody who's 467 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:03,500 kind of communicating. Oh yeah, tested. 468 00:22:03,700 --> 00:22:07,300 Just checks, you have totally missed, how to do testing in 469 00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:11,600 software, but sure, they have value as checks, but that's not 470 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,400 the full story. That's kind of the sound of one 471 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,500 hand clapping. It's like, it's part of the 472 00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:18,300 story, but you really got to understand some Act of 473 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:20,500 communication that makes the story. 474 00:22:20,500 --> 00:22:24,100 Much, much bigger it reframes. The way you think about tests 475 00:22:24,100 --> 00:22:27,100 tests are not merely checks. They are expression of 476 00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:29,000 intention. There are four of communication, 477 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:31,900 they're kind of an opportunity. Not only for somebody else to 478 00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:35,000 understand what's going on. They also an opportunity for 479 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,700 whoever's writing the test, whether you're doing that on 480 00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:40,400 your own as a pair part of a mob of trying to all what are we 481 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,400 trying to say here? And that's actually the hardest 482 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,800 thing mechanics of the test or something. 483 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,200 I think we get drawn into a lot but actually that's not the hard 484 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:49,700 part. The hard part is one of you 485 00:22:49,708 --> 00:22:52,200 actually trying to say here that is the challenge. 486 00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:54,800 So that for me is the most important. 487 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,400 Thing about testing tests are not second-class citizens, they 488 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:01,600 are an opportunity to express something that perhaps again, 489 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:04,500 you could not say in the code. So this Next with what I just 490 00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,900 said about comments, is we have all these other means of 491 00:23:07,900 --> 00:23:11,300 communicating or intention and again sometimes I might be 492 00:23:11,300 --> 00:23:14,600 writing a piece of code and I say okay here's the thing. 493 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,900 I couldn't say always not easily said in the code and I might 494 00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,400 start writing a comment. I said well maybe if I showed 495 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,300 you an example of interaction. What a great idea. 496 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:26,200 An example of interaction. Let here's piece of example code 497 00:23:26,300 --> 00:23:29,200 it shows the interaction that's of interest and just to make 498 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,400 sure that we're all good. I'll put a bunch of assertions 499 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:33,100 at the end. Bingo you've got to test. 500 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,700 You've communicated Tasted intention, you've created the 501 00:23:35,700 --> 00:23:38,700 test from understanding that you are trying to say something that 502 00:23:38,700 --> 00:23:42,400 was not otherwise easily set. So I for me, these for part of a 503 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,800 thinking system sets, I know it's very hard to pick favorites 504 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,700 from the 97 times to. I don't know whether there are 505 00:23:49,700 --> 00:23:52,000 any overlaps from the two books just to summarize. 506 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,000 The first things about being detached from working intense 507 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,600 for a long time, right? So sometimes we as developers, 508 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,200 we Crack the Code, we just rash and we just deliver features of 509 00:24:01,200 --> 00:24:04,500 a bitches sometimes when you are in this Kind of coding 510 00:24:04,500 --> 00:24:07,300 mechanics. We tend to probably don't see a 511 00:24:07,300 --> 00:24:10,200 pattern that we can improve in terms of maybe problem-solving. 512 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,300 Exactly looking at the code and things like that or even ideas 513 00:24:13,300 --> 00:24:15,800 how we can do things better. And the second one is about 514 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,700 common, don't put comment if the code can already say, is that. 515 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:22,400 So I think it's really crucial because sometimes I still see 516 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:23,400 comment. Like you mentioned. 517 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,900 Write the comment is totally wrong. 518 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:28,500 The code, has evolved Maybe by multiple people editing it so 519 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:30,300 the comments did not get updated. 520 00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:33,500 So I think it's really crucial. Don't put comments if you don't. 521 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:35,600 Have to. And the last one, I think is 522 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,400 very important testing. I think almost everyone is 523 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,700 talking about testing testing, tdd testing as a practice and 524 00:24:42,700 --> 00:24:44,900 what you mentioned just now is about communication, or it's not 525 00:24:44,900 --> 00:24:47,300 just for validation. I think there are still some 526 00:24:47,300 --> 00:24:50,600 examples that I saw from time to time that people just put 527 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,000 validation as the main intent of test. 528 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,600 But the test names, the test cases, all the things that are 529 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,500 inside the test, probably as just a random variables and 530 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:01,600 things like that. And it makes it hard for people 531 00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,900 to maintain and update over the Time. 532 00:25:04,100 --> 00:25:07,400 So I think thanks for sharing that test is communication. 533 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,800 And again, that idea comments is communication. 534 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,800 If we regard what we're doing in creating a code base for 535 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,900 creating a system of knowledge, and we want to communicate that. 536 00:25:15,900 --> 00:25:18,200 And when you start looking at it like that, you suddenly realize 537 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,100 what you do want to do. But also what you don't want to 538 00:25:20,100 --> 00:25:23,200 do, and we also realize the half-truths, in other words. 539 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,900 Sure, test, do validation and verification. 540 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,800 That's a part of their story, but that's not the whole of 541 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,400 their story, they can tell us a lot more. 542 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,000 And I think that idea, when we start stepping back and going, 543 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,600 oh, yeah, it's Just a mechanical thing. 544 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,700 It's an intention setting. So one thing that I noticed when 545 00:25:37,700 --> 00:25:40,300 you mention in the beginning before you grief these three 546 00:25:40,300 --> 00:25:43,000 things is you mentioned the books have been written like 12 547 00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:46,600 years ago and there are still some things that are Timeless 548 00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:48,600 and this is something that you mentioned before. 549 00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,200 We had this talk that we can all learn from the past, there are 550 00:25:52,208 --> 00:25:55,200 many things that stays relevant there, many things that stays 551 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,300 true even till now. So what would be some top key 552 00:25:58,300 --> 00:26:02,300 lessons from the past that you think we as programmers covering 553 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:05,000 the old programmers? And new programmers should know 554 00:26:05,300 --> 00:26:07,600 what are the things from the past are still stays relevant. 555 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:09,700 So let's go back to origin story. 556 00:26:09,700 --> 00:26:12,200 So I read a lot of books. When I got into software 557 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,200 development was the end of the 1980s, which is quite a long 558 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,300 time ago and the world has changed a lot. 559 00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:21,200 Since then the books that my boss had were from the 1980s and 560 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,700 the 1970s and I read a lot of these things so they were kind 561 00:26:24,700 --> 00:26:26,300 of already historical all of them. 562 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:32,000 But what I found was a surprisingly Timeless quality to 563 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,500 some of the books and their advice. 564 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,300 So I was brought up on a lot of ideas about how to think about 565 00:26:37,300 --> 00:26:41,300 code in terms of cohesion and coupling, we are losing these 566 00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:42,800 message. People have got distracted by 567 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,100 guidelines that don't emphasize these properly or have watered 568 00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,600 them down in a particular way. It cohesion, and coupling 569 00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000 cohesion, the degree to, which things cohere and naturally hold 570 00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,400 together. Now, sometimes people kind of 571 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:56,300 psycho wasn't that the single responsibility principle, well, 572 00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:58,700 not really it. They kind of cohesion, it's not 573 00:26:58,700 --> 00:27:01,100 about responsibilities. The original quote, has the 574 00:27:01,100 --> 00:27:03,200 single responsibility principle is actually about single reason 575 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:05,800 for Change has nothing to do with responsibilities, so naming 576 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:07,900 is hard. We know that single reason for 577 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:09,600 change. What does that actually mean? 578 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,800 It does really mean much. It's a kind of cohesion, but 579 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,300 there are other kinds of cohesion. 580 00:27:14,300 --> 00:27:17,900 So why people have got fixated on one, kind of cohesion, to the 581 00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:19,700 exclusion of others. I don't understand. 582 00:27:19,900 --> 00:27:22,100 We should be teaching people about cohesion. 583 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,600 And then again, if we look at things like the solid principles 584 00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,700 or many of the principles people describe, they don't talk about 585 00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:29,400 coupling. In other words, dependency 586 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,900 management, the degree to which things connect and we have far 587 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,300 more dependent And it sees in code bases. 588 00:27:35,300 --> 00:27:37,700 Now, for some people when they talk about dependencies they are 589 00:27:37,708 --> 00:27:39,700 talk about. External dependencies, you sort 590 00:27:39,700 --> 00:27:40,900 of say, oh dependency management. 591 00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:42,400 Yeah. And they show you all their 592 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,700 external dependencies. Like yeah, he got half a million 593 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:46,000 lines, count. It I'm talking about the 594 00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,100 dependencies in the code base, not just outside the code base. 595 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:51,800 Some people are kind of ended up kind of losing track of that. 596 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,200 So coupling cohesion, these are ideas in the 1970s. 597 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,000 They do not go away. They are fundamental, there's a 598 00:27:58,000 --> 00:27:59,300 lot of things. People have been trying to push 599 00:27:59,300 --> 00:28:02,600 as fundamental. Those are coupling, cohesion are 600 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:04,800 for us. They are for For our benefit, by 601 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:06,800 the way, the code doesn't care. The compiler is just going to 602 00:28:06,808 --> 00:28:08,800 compile what you give it. It doesn't care about coupling 603 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,200 and cohesion. The processor you're running on 604 00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:12,700 doesn't care about coupling, cohesion. 605 00:28:12,700 --> 00:28:15,500 It's just going to execute what you say company, cohesion, for 606 00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:18,400 our benefit there. So that we understand so that we 607 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:20,600 can maintain so that we can build. 608 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,100 That's what that's about. So for me, these are really old 609 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:26,200 ideas and more appropriately Timeless ideas. 610 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,400 They don't go away, we should be building on them, not trying to 611 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,100 muddle a message there for paying attention to. 612 00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:33,900 This stuff is important. And I think that's A lot of 613 00:28:33,908 --> 00:28:36,100 people are trying to do when they reiterate all try and 614 00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:40,000 reframe these, they're trying to get that message out but then, 615 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,800 there are other things that I think we haven't paid attention 616 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,100 to go quality. So these days, the popular way 617 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:48,900 of framing things in terms of issues of Co quality, is in 618 00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,600 terms of technical debt. Now, that's not really quite 619 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,500 right, but it's not a bad metaphor, although we do misuse 620 00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:58,900 it a little bit, but if you look back at the past, people have 621 00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:01,800 been talking about quality issues forever, since they 622 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,500 realize there was an issue. One of the things we've learned 623 00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:07,700 is that this really does make a difference to the future of 624 00:29:07,708 --> 00:29:11,100 development. So how can we expect people to 625 00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:13,800 easily add things in future? Put it another way. 626 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:16,000 Most developers are living in the past. 627 00:29:16,100 --> 00:29:19,200 When somebody sits down in front of a piece of code, they are 628 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,700 projecting themselves into the past, maybe it was the past 629 00:29:21,700 --> 00:29:23,300 them, maybe it's passed somebody else. 630 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:26,800 But when people are working on a code base, they are spending, 631 00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:29,600 let's say in an eight-hour day, they are spending about seven to 632 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,400 seven and a half hours dealing with the problems of the past. 633 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:34,100 Oh, I'm trying. A feature? 634 00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:35,900 Yeah, I can see. You're trying to add a feature 635 00:29:35,900 --> 00:29:38,200 but actually what you're doing is you're grappling with the way 636 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,900 that the code is evolved, you actually fighting the past 637 00:29:40,900 --> 00:29:43,400 because, you know, that you want this feature to be different but 638 00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,400 you don't understand the code that's there or you're fixing a 639 00:29:46,408 --> 00:29:47,900 bug. Fixing a bug is living in the 640 00:29:47,900 --> 00:29:50,600 past, try to understand code. That was written that living in 641 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,000 the past working around, something that's living in the 642 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,100 past, writing a test for piece of code. 643 00:29:56,100 --> 00:29:57,800 That doesn't have a test that's living in the part, you know, 644 00:29:57,808 --> 00:29:59,500 because these are all things that should have been solved in 645 00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:01,600 the past. People spend most of their time 646 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:03,400 living in the past. And I'm not saying that. 647 00:30:03,500 --> 00:30:05,000 Don't do that or shouldn't do that. 648 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:06,600 We will, there's always gonna be some percentage. 649 00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:09,100 But I think that actually defines most of what programmers 650 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:13,400 do very few developers actually spend their time, genuinely 651 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:15,900 adding value to code bases. They spend their time 652 00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:18,900 compensating for the problems to pass and this is a distinction 653 00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:21,800 that systems thinker, John said and highlights just value Demand 654 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,500 versus failure demand, the demand for your work, how much 655 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:27,500 of your work is actually spent on dealing with problems that 656 00:30:27,500 --> 00:30:30,800 have Arisen in the past and more importantly for me problems that 657 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,500 are actually solved problems. So let me Bring something more 658 00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:38,000 up-to-date so refactoring that I think for many people are just 659 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,400 assume that car of the software development landscape actually. 660 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,700 Until the late 90s, that wasn't really a known term or a popular 661 00:30:45,700 --> 00:30:48,500 idea in one sense we've done really well here. 662 00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,600 But if you go back and you look at Martin Fowler's original book 663 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:55,800 on refactoring, or the original writings, and terms of extreme 664 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,100 programming, which really focused trying to bring 665 00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:02,100 refactoring as forward to the front as it were so refactoring. 666 00:31:02,100 --> 00:31:05,700 Many people's heads exist in I have two spaces all refactoring 667 00:31:05,700 --> 00:31:08,100 that big work, we do on our Legacy code base. 668 00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,100 You know, Refractories to do with Legacy is to do with bad 669 00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:13,800 code and then the other one is 0 refactoring. 670 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,300 Yeah, that's a shortcut key. That gets me to rename things 671 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:19,300 and occasionally extract method. And it's just like, actually, 672 00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:22,000 refactoring is a design practice and it's not always about by a 673 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,200 code refactoring. Is the idea that your software 674 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,900 is supposed to be soft. And therefore, when you come up 675 00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:30,400 with a better understanding of something you do, we make this 676 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,200 better way of writing this, I should be able to reshape it 677 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:35,300 easily. So that I reflect my current 678 00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:37,600 thinking instead of me using yesterday's thinking I've got my 679 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,200 current thinking I keep the code fresh. 680 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:44,200 Therefore it's constantly in the state of improvement and 681 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:46,800 response because we're always operating with incomplete 682 00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:48,600 knowledge. We can never know everything. 683 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,300 It also allows me to be more forgiving if you like yeah we 684 00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:54,200 got that wrong but now we can make it right? 685 00:31:54,300 --> 00:31:56,700 And that's not a big deal. That's part of what we call 686 00:31:56,700 --> 00:31:58,800 software development is still a separate thing. 687 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,800 It's not a separate activity. I have to ask somebody 688 00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,300 permission for, it doesn't have that idea. 689 00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:07,000 Oh, it's just part of the flow and so I think that although you 690 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,700 open up a modern IDE, it's got refactoring their. 691 00:32:09,700 --> 00:32:13,000 Most people don't use them apart from Reno cut of have a standard 692 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:15,400 Joe when I point out to people is just like, isn't it great, 693 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,700 these days, we don't have Legacy code because when I joined the 694 00:32:17,708 --> 00:32:20,800 industry, we had Legacy code. Hey, in fact, the term Legacy 695 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,100 was first used in 1989. So the term Legacy applied to 696 00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,300 code was, actually the year that I joined the industry and I say, 697 00:32:27,300 --> 00:32:29,500 isn't it great these days that we don't have Legacy code 698 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,200 because we've got a refactoring tools that eliminate most of all 699 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:33,700 the problems. You know when people Used to 700 00:32:33,708 --> 00:32:35,100 complain. Oh, we got this method. 701 00:32:35,100 --> 00:32:37,000 It's too long. It's so good that we don't have 702 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,600 that problem anymore because we have ways of breaking up efforts 703 00:32:39,900 --> 00:32:41,800 and people say, oh yeah, glasses that are too big, the game. 704 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,000 We don't have those problems because you can extract class 705 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,000 eventually kind of people get the idea that I am joking. 706 00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:49,600 And actually, I'm asking a deeper question, we have these 707 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,600 tools. So why do we still have all of 708 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,900 the problems that these tools solve and what that actually 709 00:32:53,900 --> 00:32:55,700 teaches us? It was not a tooling problem. 710 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,000 That's what it teaches that we have given everybody, everything 711 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:01,400 they need. So in other words, this is the 712 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,900 interesting thing for most Software. 713 00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:07,200 We know how to deliver it with low defects with low. 714 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,200 I manage technical debt, and to deliver a close to being on 715 00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,900 time. These are solved Problems by the 716 00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:14,400 end of the 20th century. Every single, one of the 717 00:33:14,408 --> 00:33:17,900 problems I've just mentioned, was salt and yet we still 718 00:33:17,900 --> 00:33:20,300 struggle with them. So for me, that's the bit of the 719 00:33:20,308 --> 00:33:21,600 past. You want to live in, what are 720 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:23,600 the good ideas? We are still not apply 721 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,100 consistently. I still have to discuss with 722 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,100 people whether or not they should test that shouldn't even 723 00:33:29,100 --> 00:33:32,200 be a discussion. Okay, you write tests if you can 724 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,700 get high. Even coverage well done. 725 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,300 There's other forms of coverage but that should be the minimum 726 00:33:37,500 --> 00:33:39,200 when people say, oh yeah, we've got less. 727 00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,100 Do you have 100% statement coverage? 728 00:33:41,700 --> 00:33:43,700 No, no. We're in about 50%, okay? 729 00:33:43,700 --> 00:33:46,600 You do know that 100% statement coverage is really easy to get 730 00:33:46,700 --> 00:33:48,300 and people are always shocked by that, it's just like, well, 731 00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:51,300 yeah, you just do test-driven development, that's it. 732 00:33:51,500 --> 00:33:54,100 People who do tdd, don't worry about coverage or rather, they 733 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:57,000 worry about when it needle, dips below 100 because that normally 734 00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:58,800 means there's some dead code statement. 735 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,300 Coverage is only interesting for people that don't do tdd or 736 00:34:01,300 --> 00:34:04,100 other forms of continuous testing the So if you are doing 737 00:34:04,100 --> 00:34:07,000 continuous testing coverage is not interesting. 738 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:09,500 It's a figure that you always expect to be high because you're 739 00:34:09,500 --> 00:34:11,699 always writing your code and your test together. 740 00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:15,500 Maybe you lead with the test TD style, this is a solved problem 741 00:34:15,500 --> 00:34:18,600 we solve this years ago but people still struggle with it. 742 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,600 They try to justify having to write tests. 743 00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,400 I was talking to somebody yesterday from Microsoft, about 744 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:25,699 this whole thing about why is that the people are not using 745 00:34:25,699 --> 00:34:29,500 static analysis and high warning levels more there are reasons 746 00:34:29,500 --> 00:34:32,199 but they're not very good ones. Why do people that have clean 747 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:35,699 build once you All of all of these leaves you with the real 748 00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,600 problems that are interesting. Once you've cleaned up the bad 749 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,600 code, once you've cleaned up all of this kind of stuff, you will 750 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,100 still have Legacy, but that Legacy will be there for a 751 00:34:44,107 --> 00:34:47,500 different reason that Legacy will be left over decisions from 752 00:34:47,500 --> 00:34:50,100 the past your challenges now, to deal with like yeah we took this 753 00:34:50,100 --> 00:34:53,100 decision but the technology landscape all the requirements 754 00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:55,900 of mu. So that decision is no longer 755 00:34:55,900 --> 00:34:57,400 appropriate. Not a bad decision. 756 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,600 It's just doesn't fit the world in and we wrote this code in 757 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,300 good faith, but now it's no longer. 758 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,300 Right? So we need a better fit for the 759 00:35:05,300 --> 00:35:07,900 code in the world. So don't worry, once we've 760 00:35:07,900 --> 00:35:09,900 solved all the problems, there are still plenty of problems. 761 00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:12,600 But what I'm saying is that, most of the things that people 762 00:35:12,600 --> 00:35:15,700 have said, hey, modularize your code, use a coherent Paradigm, 763 00:35:15,700 --> 00:35:17,900 have less state mutability. That doesn't mean you have to go 764 00:35:17,900 --> 00:35:20,400 doing functional programming. If your unit functional 765 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:21,800 language, that's absolutely brilliant. 766 00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:23,600 If you're in a language, that really nudges you in that 767 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:26,500 direction, that's great. But even as somebody who's 768 00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:30,000 worked in C and Fortran, I'm going to say you don't have to 769 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,300 have highly imperative code, that's never been a great idea. 770 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,400 And you're not forced into that, there are simple techniques, you 771 00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:40,000 can deal with, modularize your code, use various techniques, a 772 00:35:40,008 --> 00:35:42,800 class has a module. In this sense, it is a modular 773 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:44,900 construct, any for data, abstraction is a modular 774 00:35:44,900 --> 00:35:47,900 construct, microservices. A modular constructs at a larger 775 00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:51,000 scale, but the idea is, if you think that microservices are 776 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,300 going to solve your poor modularity, in your code, 777 00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:55,900 they're not when everybody says hey, we're doing microservices 778 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:58,300 because it's going to improve the structure of our code. 779 00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:00,900 Well, you don't need microservices to do that 780 00:36:00,900 --> 00:36:03,300 microservices, solve a very specific problem. 781 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,700 I'm related to deployment and scaling. 782 00:36:05,900 --> 00:36:09,300 That's what they're really good at if we have had so many 783 00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:12,800 paradigms over the last few decades, that are about how to 784 00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,000 organize your code. You don't need anymore. 785 00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:18,000 You've got every single tool. And if you can't do it with 786 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:21,000 that, then you should take a step back, put the mouse down, 787 00:36:21,100 --> 00:36:23,300 death away, from the keyboard. Go wait, what's really going on 788 00:36:23,300 --> 00:36:24,300 here? What is it? 789 00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:27,500 That we are missing as a team collectively to reinforce these 790 00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:30,300 practices. So yeah, past is an interesting 791 00:36:30,300 --> 00:36:33,600 place, we get drawn back to our mistakes in the past, but we To 792 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,400 learn from our successes. So that be my general advice on 793 00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:39,200 this one. Listening to your explanation is 794 00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,100 very fascinating because I love developers these days. 795 00:36:42,100 --> 00:36:44,000 Chase this hype driven development, right? 796 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,200 Oh, that's the new cool Technologies. 797 00:36:46,300 --> 00:36:50,500 New framework, new libraries new paradigms, like microservices 798 00:36:50,700 --> 00:36:52,200 event-driven and things like that. 799 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,700 But if we look back to the past, they're probably so many 800 00:36:54,700 --> 00:36:56,800 theories that still stays relevant. 801 00:36:56,900 --> 00:36:59,300 And in fact I notice some of these thought leaders in the 802 00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,800 tech industry like they finally Robert Martin Uncle Bob they 803 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,500 wrote books Book's title like, modern software engineering and 804 00:37:05,500 --> 00:37:07,600 clean craftsmanship. But if you look at the things 805 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,700 that they are advocating, actually, it comes from the past 806 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,400 the same fundamental things that stays relevant even up until 807 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,000 now. So, I think the key message 808 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:18,300 here, I want to emphasize is that for developers. 809 00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:19,800 Please go back to the fundamentals. 810 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,200 Don't always chase the new shiny things. 811 00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:25,400 There are still things that we can probably Master to become a 812 00:37:25,408 --> 00:37:28,900 better developers here. And I think the value is, when 813 00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:31,900 you understand, that gives you a more solid foundation and when 814 00:37:31,900 --> 00:37:34,000 something new and shiny does, Come along. 815 00:37:34,300 --> 00:37:36,300 You now, have a more objective assessment. 816 00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:37,900 You can separate out and go. Okay. 817 00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:39,400 Yeah. This is building on foundations. 818 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:41,700 There's nothing new. And then you can look at the 819 00:37:41,707 --> 00:37:43,200 bit. That actually is shiny and go. 820 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,600 This is the value of this or you may say, wait a minute, there is 821 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,500 nothing shiny here. This is just repackaging. 822 00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,700 The past and also its mistakes. So maybe, let's not do this one. 823 00:37:51,700 --> 00:37:53,700 It gives you a more objective sense. 824 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,600 Of course, most people in technology, get into technology 825 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:58,400 because they like the excitement of something. 826 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,200 So we have to kind of watch ourselves a little bit on this. 827 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,100 We are Our Own Worst Enemy at this one. 828 00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,000 So adding that a always find fascinating. 829 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,000 Also, because they are tools that are built by developers, 830 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:12,100 that makes things easier for us to turn out code, but not 831 00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:15,200 necessarily comply with this, cohesion, or this coupling. 832 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,600 So I think of it like the Frameworks of are Frameworks, 833 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:19,300 right? So I think that's also another 834 00:38:19,300 --> 00:38:22,200 thing that is fascinating, like with then do one shortcuts and 835 00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:25,900 if we're something faster, but not adhering to the good, best 836 00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:28,100 principles that software should be written in. 837 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,700 So Cavalier, another thing that you are very popular in its what 838 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:33,800 people call Carolyn hennesy, Right? 839 00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:37,700 You can see in felonies Twitter, just look at what we call 840 00:38:37,700 --> 00:38:40,000 software failure. And these are normally public 841 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,100 software failure and people just send, you know, pictures of this 842 00:38:43,100 --> 00:38:46,600 software failures to Kaplan. So maybe the first thing is tell 843 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,100 us what the story is all about how come people actually, send 844 00:38:50,100 --> 00:38:52,800 all these things to you. So you can story goes back a 845 00:38:52,808 --> 00:38:55,300 long way. I used to take screenshots 846 00:38:55,300 --> 00:38:58,300 whenever something crashed on my machine or take a screenshot of 847 00:38:58,300 --> 00:39:00,900 it and sometimes I would integrate it into a talk then, 848 00:39:00,900 --> 00:39:04,200 of course, phones have cameras. So I started taking pictures of 849 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:06,800 software failures in public places because software runs the 850 00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,200 world, but it doesn't always run it in the way to re-watch it to. 851 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:12,500 There's a lot of reboot screens and screens, which Trace very 852 00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:15,300 elegantly, the whole Tech stack, that's just crashed. 853 00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:17,000 I started taking photographs of these. 854 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,400 Again, I did incorporate those into talks or I just kind of put 855 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:21,800 them on with screen when running a workshop, a good source of 856 00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:23,700 entertainment. But also going back to this 857 00:39:23,700 --> 00:39:26,200 question of quality as something, I've always had an 858 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:29,300 interest in, it's a reminder of like yeah in the tech space, we 859 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:31,800 have a certain responsibility, we are creating things. 860 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,300 That crash we are creating Don't work a bug isn't personal 861 00:39:35,300 --> 00:39:37,900 inconvenience to you or configuration issues a personal 862 00:39:37,900 --> 00:39:40,700 inconvenience to you or it just becomes a ticket. 863 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,700 The thing is to realize that it exists in the world, it's not an 864 00:39:43,700 --> 00:39:45,600 abstraction. It's actually exist in the 865 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:46,700 world. It's amusing. 866 00:39:46,700 --> 00:39:49,700 Sometimes would also probably preventing somebody else be able 867 00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:53,000 to do something. So I kind of highlighted these 868 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,900 then as a result of this people within start, emailing me these 869 00:39:56,900 --> 00:39:58,900 things. Then we hit the social media 870 00:39:58,900 --> 00:40:01,100 error, so it's much easier. They don't have to email me. 871 00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:03,800 They can just tag me. So this is Coming a popular 872 00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,700 thing on Twitter, in particular what I would do because that's a 873 00:40:06,700 --> 00:40:10,300 very public space is that I would just retweet this. 874 00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:15,300 Then people started making a point of doing this and in 2016, 875 00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:17,700 somebody actually started saying, oh, okay, Evelyn any 876 00:40:17,700 --> 00:40:20,500 screen because it had reached a particular points. 877 00:40:20,900 --> 00:40:23,600 And so that's how my name got associated with it. 878 00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,000 That point there's even somebody put an entry in Urban Dictionary 879 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:29,600 and there's even a mention on the register of this stuff 880 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:30,700 though. That's kind of an interesting 881 00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:33,000 thing. I was also asked by somebody 882 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:34,500 Then what is it? Feel like to have your name 883 00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:36,800 associated with failure? So thick it is, and it's just a 884 00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,200 way of looking at it. It's just like, yeah, I don't 885 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,900 cause these screens, but it is interesting because it's a 886 00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:46,100 reminder for me that when we do with software, when we develop 887 00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:49,500 it, and when we deploy it, we are part of a larger system 888 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,300 where our failures in software are no longer about us. 889 00:40:54,300 --> 00:40:57,100 There are about other people. They become very visible in a 890 00:40:57,107 --> 00:41:00,100 world that runs on software. That becomes a Prominent Point. 891 00:41:00,100 --> 00:41:02,500 Some of them are quite revealing in a way that you don't want to 892 00:41:02,508 --> 00:41:04,400 be revealed. Like I said, sometimes you get a 893 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,000 complete stack Trace. In fact, I saw one yesterday 894 00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,700 which was quite interesting. The stack Trace was not visible, 895 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,900 even though there was an error because whoever created this had 896 00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:16,400 the wisdom to say, you know what, we're showing our internal 897 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,800 structure that can be used against us from a security point 898 00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:21,200 of view. You discover the somebody's 899 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:23,100 using an unpatched version of something you go. 900 00:41:23,100 --> 00:41:25,500 Oh yeah, that's interesting. I got a new attack Vector there, 901 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,100 but it also tells us something about the organizations that 902 00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:30,400 run. I still get images of Windows 903 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,800 XP, both screens and failure screen. 904 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:36,200 Like peas been out of support for a very long time. 905 00:41:36,500 --> 00:41:39,300 Again we're living in the past. A lot of the world is running on 906 00:41:39,300 --> 00:41:42,200 stuff that everybody thinks they left behind but there isn't it? 907 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,300 Actually all there. We have a responsibility there. 908 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:48,800 We need to get a little better at this but then we also get the 909 00:41:48,808 --> 00:41:51,200 obvious program. I level bugs is just like, yeah, 910 00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:52,800 we should have perhaps configured that looking more 911 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,800 carefully or tested that more thoroughly. 912 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:57,300 It tells us about us. That's what a lot of these 913 00:41:57,300 --> 00:41:59,800 things do. But what is also interesting, is 914 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:01,900 that sometimes when people tagged me, particularly with 915 00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:04,000 something like public, Transport. 916 00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:05,800 They will also tag the public transport company. 917 00:42:06,100 --> 00:42:08,700 And some of the time, the public transport, whoever's on Twitter 918 00:42:08,700 --> 00:42:11,500 that point was at all. Yeah, sorry about this or yes. 919 00:42:11,500 --> 00:42:14,000 We've saw this problem has been resolved or please tell us more 920 00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:16,400 because, you know, this is embarrassing for us, so it's 921 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,200 also a public service at level. I hope you all the programmers, 922 00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:23,200 who build systems never had a chance for your systems to be 923 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,000 sent to Kevin honey for failures but I think the story that you 924 00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,200 just told, right? I think there's a lot of things 925 00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:32,000 here that I insights. So when you deploy software, 926 00:42:32,100 --> 00:42:35,200 especially for public Systems like public transport airport. 927 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,100 Sometimes I see all elevator. So there are a lot of 928 00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:41,200 responsibilities software failure can impact a lot of 929 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:42,900 people. These kind of things are 930 00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:44,400 definitely for one thing is funny. 931 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:45,600 Yes. But at the other end is 932 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:48,000 something for us to ponder about software failures. 933 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,600 Should be treated more seriously. 934 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,700 So, coming back to the beginning when you mention, you also love 935 00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:54,800 writing public speaking and things like that. 936 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,500 You mentioned that, developer should focus, not just on 937 00:42:57,500 --> 00:43:00,500 coding, maybe you can explain why we should all think about 938 00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:03,700 writing more, or speaking more, or having more In which you 939 00:43:03,700 --> 00:43:05,200 mentioned as well before we talk. 940 00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:08,700 So people have many different roads into software development, 941 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,600 the flight reflects different motivations. 942 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,100 So this is my story as a teenager, I was interested home 943 00:43:14,100 --> 00:43:15,900 Computing, all this kind of stuff, this was the 944 00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:19,300 technological change that affected me and was a natural 945 00:43:19,300 --> 00:43:22,300 area of interest but of course that was very much about you 946 00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:25,200 being an individual and solving problems and playing around. 947 00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:27,900 It was ultimately all about play there is that idea, but it's 948 00:43:27,900 --> 00:43:31,300 also ultimately about you. Other people arrive in software 949 00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:34,300 from very different paths. It's because They work with 950 00:43:34,300 --> 00:43:35,800 team. So I know number of people who 951 00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,400 have moved as it were from the customer side of the product 952 00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,800 owner side, the business side into being a developer because 953 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:43,800 they work so closely. So in other words, their initial 954 00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:47,200 point of contact with software was not in the technical ground 955 00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:49,500 up perspective, it was not the bits in the B. 956 00:43:49,500 --> 00:43:52,900 It was not that perspective. It was not as a formalism, it 957 00:43:52,900 --> 00:43:55,000 was as a business tool and working in teams. 958 00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:57,200 So they have a much more social perspective of that. 959 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,000 So some people already have that view of software developer. 960 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:02,800 I think many people end up in software developed without 961 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:04,300 properly. Appreciating the war, they're 962 00:44:04,300 --> 00:44:07,200 trying to do is communicate, ultimately, that's what we did. 963 00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:08,400 And we're not just talking to a compiler. 964 00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,700 We are talking to ourselves our future selves. 965 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:12,500 We are talking to our colleagues. 966 00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,300 We are talking to people, we will never meet in one very 967 00:44:15,300 --> 00:44:17,800 simple sense. We are organizing our thoughts. 968 00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:19,600 That is what a programming Paradigm. 969 00:44:19,600 --> 00:44:22,400 Is it is a framework for organizing your thoughts and 970 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,400 your knowledge. You are taking knowledge that is 971 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:28,400 technological and Technical. You're taking knowledge of the 972 00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,200 problem domain and you are bringing together in a formal 973 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,100 structure. And you are saying here is how 974 00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,400 I've chosen to meet this requirement to the best of our 975 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,600 knowledge, and best of our ability at this particular point 976 00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:40,500 in time, that's what you're effectively communicating, by 977 00:44:40,500 --> 00:44:43,500 the way, it compiles and runs, that's kind of important, but 978 00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:46,400 there is an idea here. When we take a step back and we 979 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:50,700 realize communication is the clarity of our own thoughts, we 980 00:44:50,700 --> 00:44:52,400 often don't think clearly to ourselves. 981 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,300 It's a discipline different philosophical Schools. 982 00:44:55,300 --> 00:44:57,300 Go back to actually thousands of years. 983 00:44:57,300 --> 00:45:00,300 They are often about how do we do the day-to-day? 984 00:45:00,300 --> 00:45:01,900 How do we communicate or intentions? 985 00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,100 Clearly, how do we Take a step back and separate what we 986 00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:08,100 believe from what actually is because sometimes our beliefs do 987 00:45:08,100 --> 00:45:10,800 not match up to the way the world is and these are age-old, 988 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:13,900 questions, software is one of the places we bring these all 989 00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:17,700 together. So for me, that idea means I 990 00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:20,500 need to have a bigger understanding than just. 991 00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:23,700 Hey, I can use a framework or I understand formal systems and 992 00:45:23,700 --> 00:45:27,300 perhaps I have a mathematical background and so the word 993 00:45:27,300 --> 00:45:29,900 itself communication comes from the Latin communis, meaning 994 00:45:29,900 --> 00:45:31,300 together, it's about be together. 995 00:45:31,300 --> 00:45:33,000 That's what it is. That's the whole idea. 996 00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:35,600 It. And what is it that causes that 997 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:38,400 and improves that for me different people have different 998 00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:39,800 parts in. So I think writing is an 999 00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:43,500 interesting one, because, when you look at advice for writing, 1000 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:47,900 a lot of it transfers straight into software development, 1001 00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:49,300 there's no boundary. There you go. 1002 00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:52,600 Oh, yeah, the intentions of the same, but it reminds you that 1003 00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:55,400 you are an author for somebody else, you're not merely 1004 00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,200 instructing the machine, it's not merely a functional thing 1005 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:00,300 that it should go. In fact, that's a reminder 1006 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,100 software development, not about project is about products. 1007 00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:05,900 It's a project is something that you finish we're a software 1008 00:46:05,900 --> 00:46:07,600 development. Generally the goal is not to 1009 00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:09,300 finish. I don't don't deliver. 1010 00:46:09,300 --> 00:46:11,700 I mean the idea is that we are always building. 1011 00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:14,600 We are not aiming for a release. We are aiming to keep on 1012 00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:17,800 releasing the name of the game, is to keep on playing the game. 1013 00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:21,500 And so therefore we need to create a sustainable environment 1014 00:46:21,900 --> 00:46:23,500 and code is the environment we create. 1015 00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:26,800 So we need to get better at communication and that also mean 1016 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:29,600 communication to ourselves, you always have a way more 1017 00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:33,100 overconfident belief that, you know what you did in future that 1018 00:46:33,300 --> 00:46:35,500 I'm the near future and in future, you will come back and 1019 00:46:35,500 --> 00:46:36,700 go. I have no idea what I was 1020 00:46:36,700 --> 00:46:38,600 thinking. When I wrote this, you remember, 1021 00:46:38,600 --> 00:46:41,200 it was clear in your head, but you don't remember why? 1022 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,500 So that idea of genuinely organizing your thoughts and for 1023 00:46:45,500 --> 00:46:49,400 me writing is one of those techniques and the advice that 1024 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,600 we find on writing translate very well to and one of the 1025 00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,500 things in code. But then also things like 1026 00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:58,000 speaking, speaking is an interesting one, because many 1027 00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,400 people fear it because you're standing up in front of 1028 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,700 strangers or if our colleagues you are potentially very 1029 00:47:02,700 --> 00:47:04,400 vulnerable. And that's a big ass. 1030 00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:06,600 It's not something that necessarily everybody's going to 1031 00:47:06,607 --> 00:47:09,400 feel comfortable with but the one thing we can say and this 1032 00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:12,300 goes for writing as well and other works, you know, so 1033 00:47:12,300 --> 00:47:14,600 occasionally I run across people who Express themselves 1034 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:16,900 differently. There's a very high number of 1035 00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:19,100 people who play a musical instrument in software. 1036 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,400 For example, that's you expressing yourself. 1037 00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,200 It's not expressing yourself in the same way with the same 1038 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,900 intent, but that is you creating a structure and enjoying doing? 1039 00:47:28,900 --> 00:47:32,800 So, what can you take from that? There are two things, one you 1040 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,600 are The structure that supposed to make sense, There are rules 1041 00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:38,300 and boundaries on their structure. 1042 00:47:38,500 --> 00:47:40,800 Some of those rules and boundaries can be broken to 1043 00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,900 create new rules and boundaries but there is also skill and 1044 00:47:43,900 --> 00:47:47,100 there is also enjoyment. Hey, these all town like things 1045 00:47:47,100 --> 00:47:50,700 that I would like to think I could bring to my work as well. 1046 00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,000 My pastime. So the idea is, there's a lot to 1047 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,700 be learned from these other forms of expression and so 1048 00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:58,900 sometimes people will be more than happy to stand on stage and 1049 00:47:58,900 --> 00:48:00,800 play guitar. But we say, oh no, I can't stand 1050 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,000 in front of people and talk in front of slides. 1051 00:48:03,300 --> 00:48:05,600 And it's just like, take a step back and think, hang on. 1052 00:48:05,600 --> 00:48:08,000 What could I transfer between these world? 1053 00:48:08,300 --> 00:48:11,300 Can I move my Skillet communication and expression 1054 00:48:11,300 --> 00:48:13,800 into something more verbal because code, is ultimately, a 1055 00:48:13,808 --> 00:48:16,200 verbal construct. Its word based. 1056 00:48:16,600 --> 00:48:18,700 It doesn't mean everybody's going out speaking the same or 1057 00:48:18,700 --> 00:48:20,800 necessarily it was going to be totally comfortable with it. 1058 00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,300 But the more you do it, the easier it becomes. 1059 00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:27,100 You start realizing your own gaps, your own shortcomings and 1060 00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,200 you generally get a bit better. If you were nervous at the 1061 00:48:29,207 --> 00:48:31,000 beginning, you're less nervous in future. 1062 00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,100 If you are very nervous at the beginning, you're just nervous. 1063 00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:34,800 Listen future. If you were a little bit 1064 00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,400 nervous, you're not nervous in future just by doing it and 1065 00:48:37,408 --> 00:48:39,700 repeating it. But that also goes to 1066 00:48:39,700 --> 00:48:42,500 compassion, because just now you mentioned compassion. 1067 00:48:42,500 --> 00:48:45,700 And also just said, when you write, if you publish a Blog, 1068 00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,900 you are potentially vulnerable. You are exposing your thinking 1069 00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:53,000 and your thoughts and your writing particularly if you are 1070 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,300 writing a language that is not your first language. 1071 00:48:55,700 --> 00:48:58,100 You may feel very vulnerable that made things. 1072 00:48:58,100 --> 00:49:00,900 People always a lot Kinder than you think they are actually will 1073 00:49:00,900 --> 00:49:03,000 appreciate your effort if you think you have. 1074 00:49:03,100 --> 00:49:06,500 Nothing new to add yeah, you're mostly wrong infant. 1075 00:49:06,500 --> 00:49:08,700 That what I don't like to tell people their role but you must 1076 00:49:08,700 --> 00:49:10,200 be wrong because you have a point of view. 1077 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:12,700 I was telling somebody the other day, I said, there's something I 1078 00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:15,700 envy you for because I will never be able to go back to that 1079 00:49:15,700 --> 00:49:18,600 stage at this point. I will never have that journey 1080 00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:21,500 of Discovery game because I remember most things but you're 1081 00:49:21,500 --> 00:49:23,500 about to enter a point in your career where you're going to 1082 00:49:23,500 --> 00:49:26,100 start learning things for the first time and they're going to 1083 00:49:26,100 --> 00:49:28,600 be exciting and you're going to discover, you can do things, you 1084 00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:31,000 didn't think you could, you're going to have technical 1085 00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,300 insights, you've been working with Frameworks that you Talked 1086 00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:35,700 about but then you're going to go above and beyond that and 1087 00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:37,700 you're going to suddenly realize hey I have a bigger picture here 1088 00:49:37,700 --> 00:49:40,000 and I understand something about architecture that nobody's ever 1089 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:41,600 told me. And you see that for yourself, 1090 00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,300 there's a whole load of things there that you and only you can 1091 00:49:45,300 --> 00:49:47,900 experience. So you have that ability to 1092 00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:50,300 offer that to other people. And wouldn't it be a shame if 1093 00:49:50,300 --> 00:49:51,900 the thing that holds you back from doing? 1094 00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:54,800 That is a fear of your own communication and that doesn't 1095 00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,300 mean you're going to write the perfect thing but you know what 1096 00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:59,700 if you don't write, it will definitely be very imperfect. 1097 00:49:59,900 --> 00:50:01,800 The world is missing that contribution. 1098 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:04,900 But that's the idea compassion is also very important. 1099 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,500 We literally fell in love compassion means to suffer with 1100 00:50:07,500 --> 00:50:10,000 somebody. Compassion means to understand 1101 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,300 that you see somebody else's. They're making a bunch of 1102 00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:15,200 mistakes. And yeah, you know what, I know 1103 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,700 what that feels like else is struggling to give a talk or 1104 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:21,100 organize their thoughts. You know what, maybe they're 1105 00:50:21,100 --> 00:50:23,900 having a bad day or I understand what that feels like. 1106 00:50:24,000 --> 00:50:27,100 All of these things is that kind of recognition that we spend so 1107 00:50:27,100 --> 00:50:29,300 much time working with machines and tools, we've got to remember 1108 00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:31,600 our yes humans. So, for me, I think that's a 1109 00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,800 really important. Important emphasis, the emphasis 1110 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,000 has come about slowly Through The Years. 1111 00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,200 Seem people talk about this in a few years ago, April Wenzel 1112 00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,100 really kind of coined. This idea of compassion. 1113 00:50:41,100 --> 00:50:43,700 Coding is just like that. It's just like oh yeah this is a 1114 00:50:43,707 --> 00:50:46,200 big signal. This is absolutely okay. 1115 00:50:46,200 --> 00:50:49,700 For everybody to talk about this stuff it's okay to make mistakes 1116 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:51,300 to understand the other person is human. 1117 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:53,200 Which means hopefully they understand that you are human, 1118 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:54,700 which takes a lot of pressure off. 1119 00:50:54,700 --> 00:50:57,500 I think a lot of people are under a lot of pressure to form 1120 00:50:57,500 --> 00:51:00,200 and expectation and soul. If you can take a little bit of 1121 00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,000 that off, it goes again back to following. 1122 00:51:02,300 --> 00:51:04,100 Put the mouse down step away from the keyboard. 1123 00:51:04,100 --> 00:51:06,600 It's allows you to think differently and more Loosely. 1124 00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,400 If you are constantly being pressured, that's going to box 1125 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,700 your thinking that's going to reduce your ability to be 1126 00:51:11,700 --> 00:51:15,300 creative and have insights. You become a machine which we've 1127 00:51:15,300 --> 00:51:17,900 already got those. So, you need to kind of give 1128 00:51:17,900 --> 00:51:21,200 people that space, there's emotional and social space there 1129 00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:23,600 as well, which I think is. So for me, that's part of the 1130 00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,100 message as well. And again, when we look at a 1131 00:51:26,100 --> 00:51:29,400 piece of code and we don't like it, it's really easy to go man. 1132 00:51:29,700 --> 00:51:32,900 Whoever wrote this was an idiot. It's just like Like maybe it was 1133 00:51:32,900 --> 00:51:36,500 you maybe the Ada was passed me but more to the point is. 1134 00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:37,800 Yeah. You know what, maybe they 1135 00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:39,800 weren't an idiot. Maybe they just had a bad day, 1136 00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:41,800 maybe they were working to the best of their ability. 1137 00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,600 That idea is that in the future, you will always know more than 1138 00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:47,300 you do now but the code is not been written in the future. 1139 00:51:47,300 --> 00:51:49,700 It's being written today, we may revisit it in future, we may 1140 00:51:49,700 --> 00:51:53,000 refine it in future and again it goes back to that idea of like 1141 00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:54,900 refactoring. Being a forgiving process, 1142 00:51:54,900 --> 00:51:56,400 you've got to work with what you've got today. 1143 00:51:56,400 --> 00:51:58,100 Unless you have a time machine, you going to work with something 1144 00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,900 else, so do it. But that also means in future, 1145 00:52:00,900 --> 00:52:03,600 you got to go back and go out. Yeah, I remember thinking this. 1146 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:04,400 Yeah. I was wrong. 1147 00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,700 There's nothing wrong with being wrong, but you've just got to 1148 00:52:07,700 --> 00:52:09,000 frame it in a way that goes like. 1149 00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,500 Yeah, we did our best but now we know better and that's 1150 00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:14,800 absolutely fine. That's a better frame that damn 1151 00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:16,400 we were idiots. We should never be allowed near 1152 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:18,800 keyboards again. It's a very harsh way of looking 1153 00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,300 at it. So that the me compassion is 1154 00:52:21,300 --> 00:52:24,900 that missing ingredient and that was never made clear to me when 1155 00:52:24,900 --> 00:52:27,200 I joined the industry or in fact for most of the time I've been 1156 00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:30,900 in Austria, that's actually an important ingredient in creating 1157 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,800 large software. Teams and companies based on 1158 00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,600 software, you kind of have to rid of that if you want to have 1159 00:52:36,600 --> 00:52:39,600 the longevity and all those quality and productivity 1160 00:52:39,600 --> 00:52:42,900 aspirations people have. There's a magic ingredient and 1161 00:52:42,900 --> 00:52:46,100 it's the appreciation of other people while they're so many 1162 00:52:46,100 --> 00:52:47,800 things straight from your explanation, right? 1163 00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:51,200 Starting from how to organize start clarifying, your thinking 1164 00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:54,200 process many programmers probably started their career 1165 00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:57,000 thinking that they will work just with machine and keyboard. 1166 00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,700 They don't like talking with other people but actually 1167 00:52:59,700 --> 00:53:01,800 software development is about communication. 1168 00:53:02,200 --> 00:53:04,500 Medication with other people, not just from business, but 1169 00:53:04,500 --> 00:53:07,600 maybe with your users, or maybe some other people as well, when 1170 00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,300 you can clarify and communicate better, I think you become a 1171 00:53:10,308 --> 00:53:11,700 better software developer as well. 1172 00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:15,400 And I think compassion I hear you loud and clear many people 1173 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,100 these days especially in the tech industry in the startup 1174 00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:21,400 World, they tend to just thinking of fast-paced always 1175 00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:24,600 deliver always churning out things but they lack compassion 1176 00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,100 thinking about the thing that they are, people are chasing. 1177 00:53:27,400 --> 00:53:29,900 It's actually thinking about the people aspect as well, not just 1178 00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:32,500 producing code. So, I think you're Message is 1179 00:53:32,500 --> 00:53:35,200 really important for all of us here to think about compassion, 1180 00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:37,200 and not to always downgrade people. 1181 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,500 As a developer, we have skills in abstraction, we should be 1182 00:53:40,508 --> 00:53:42,100 careful about applying those skills to people. 1183 00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:44,400 Yeah, yeah. So we should not downgrade 1184 00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:46,000 people thinking they're just developers. 1185 00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,000 So, Kevin has been a great conversation. 1186 00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:50,600 Unfortunately, due to time we have to wrap up. 1187 00:53:50,900 --> 00:53:53,500 I have one last question though that I would like to ask you, 1188 00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:55,900 which I call the three technical leadership wisdom. 1189 00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:59,100 So think of it just like advice for other people to think about 1190 00:53:59,100 --> 00:54:00,800 or Ponder with their Journey as well. 1191 00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,200 So maybe can you Share with us. Those three technical leadership 1192 00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:06,500 wisdom. Yeah, I think they asked kind of 1193 00:54:06,508 --> 00:54:08,100 follow on from the previous points. 1194 00:54:08,100 --> 00:54:10,600 We making interestingly enough, that's taken us to a very 1195 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:13,200 interesting plate. The first thing I guess a really 1196 00:54:13,200 --> 00:54:14,900 simple one. When we talk about technical 1197 00:54:14,900 --> 00:54:18,200 leadership is definitely lead, by example, and that's a harder 1198 00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:22,500 than it sounds, but the idea is, when you are trying to instill a 1199 00:54:22,500 --> 00:54:26,000 change, we are taught about telling people and funny enough 1200 00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:29,300 in the writing World, there is this idea of show, don't tell, 1201 00:54:29,500 --> 00:54:32,000 when you write something, the idea is, what is it in your 1202 00:54:32,100 --> 00:54:33,900 You're writing that communicates. 1203 00:54:33,900 --> 00:54:36,200 What's going on? Don't just give a description of 1204 00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:38,300 everything that's going on and you don't have quote marks 1205 00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:39,700 around. I don't love you anymore. 1206 00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:43,100 She said, angrily, what's that? Would angrily doing there? 1207 00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:44,900 How do people behave when they're angry? 1208 00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:47,600 She slammed the door, as she left are slamming little wow. 1209 00:54:47,600 --> 00:54:49,800 Okay, she's angry. And I was show me the think, 1210 00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,600 don't just tell me the things show me the thing and I think 1211 00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,400 same thing applies paid to richer picture. 1212 00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:58,400 So is very easy to fall into a position where potentially, if 1213 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:01,400 we're advocating a practice within a team, we're telling 1214 00:55:01,400 --> 00:55:04,800 people Sure that message might get through, but it probably 1215 00:55:04,800 --> 00:55:07,000 doesn't, and he probably doesn't mean anything. 1216 00:55:07,200 --> 00:55:09,200 You got to work at the level. What does it mean? 1217 00:55:09,700 --> 00:55:12,300 If I recommend a practice, can I show you what it is? 1218 00:55:12,900 --> 00:55:15,100 What if I do that? What if nobody else does that? 1219 00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,700 That's fine. But imagine you did it and you 1220 00:55:17,700 --> 00:55:19,900 were able to point to it. What's that you're doing? 1221 00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:21,700 Oh, okay, that's kind of interesting. 1222 00:55:21,700 --> 00:55:24,000 I see you're using a different commit, message philosophy to 1223 00:55:24,000 --> 00:55:26,100 the way that I'm writing commit, but your commit message 1224 00:55:26,100 --> 00:55:28,700 philosophy, seems to have a clearer communication and you 1225 00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:31,000 break your commits down to smaller levels than perhaps to 1226 00:55:31,008 --> 00:55:32,900 other people in the team do. And you realize they much more 1227 00:55:32,900 --> 00:55:34,100 transactional. Well, there you go. 1228 00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:37,400 You've got an example lead, by example is a really important 1229 00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:40,400 thing and sometimes that means leading, before you tell do that 1230 00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:43,500 in practice, it becomes more of a habit that you're also in a 1231 00:55:43,500 --> 00:55:45,500 better position to talk about the adoption of it. 1232 00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:47,500 It's an example, not just because you're not being a 1233 00:55:47,500 --> 00:55:49,500 hypocrite, hey, I'm telling you to do something going to do 1234 00:55:49,500 --> 00:55:53,200 something else but also because it may mean more to people when 1235 00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,000 they actually see it in action, whatever that practice is 1236 00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,900 whatever that advocacy is. Well there that recommendation 1237 00:55:59,900 --> 00:56:02,800 is, if you can see it in the world, it makes A lot more sense 1238 00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,000 to me than just being told it. So I think that's kind of the 1239 00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,200 first one, the other one. So people get called team 1240 00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:10,200 leaders, they get called technically, there's an 1241 00:56:10,207 --> 00:56:13,200 organization they get called leaders but that doesn't always 1242 00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:15,400 mean, you are leading to be a leader. 1243 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:16,700 You have to have people who follow. 1244 00:56:17,000 --> 00:56:19,100 They can either be told to follow you all the kind of 1245 00:56:19,100 --> 00:56:21,400 follow you. So the leading by example is one 1246 00:56:21,400 --> 00:56:24,200 thing but the other thing is you got to realize that if you are 1247 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,400 trying to Advocate things, you are not going to come up with 1248 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:27,900 everything. You're not going to lead, you 1249 00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:29,500 shouldn't do all the work, otherwise you're going to end up 1250 00:56:29,500 --> 00:56:31,700 in a position where you become a micromanager know to lead. 1251 00:56:32,100 --> 00:56:34,800 And also recognize that particular when we talk about 1252 00:56:34,800 --> 00:56:38,000 teams and organizations, they are social constructs. 1253 00:56:38,000 --> 00:56:40,700 Again, we're back to the people. There's a lot of intelligent 1254 00:56:40,700 --> 00:56:42,600 people at software. There's a lot of creative 1255 00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,800 individuals and everybody knows something that you don't need. 1256 00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:47,800 You know, they know the things that, you know, they will know 1257 00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:49,500 them. Different cannot know, something 1258 00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:51,400 for somebody else, and you cannot know it necessarily in 1259 00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,500 the same way and she rely on other people to come up with 1260 00:56:54,500 --> 00:56:56,600 ideas. It's not your job to do, all of 1261 00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,700 the work rely on other people and give them credit. 1262 00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:02,700 So that's the important thing make That visible. 1263 00:57:02,900 --> 00:57:06,000 I sometimes see with people who consider themselves to be 1264 00:57:06,100 --> 00:57:08,300 leaders as they think they have to do all the thinking. 1265 00:57:08,600 --> 00:57:12,800 No, actually your value goes up by recognizing and letting other 1266 00:57:12,800 --> 00:57:15,600 people do this and make it explicit that they came up with 1267 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:17,000 that. That's where people go. 1268 00:57:17,000 --> 00:57:19,300 Yeah, that person to leader. They credited me. 1269 00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:21,800 They see what I'm doing. You got to see them and make 1270 00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:23,900 that visible and make sure other people see them. 1271 00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:25,600 So, that's a really important idea. 1272 00:57:26,100 --> 00:57:28,400 And the other one picks up on another theme that we've had 1273 00:57:28,500 --> 00:57:29,800 throughout our conversation today. 1274 00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,000 Which is admit you're wrong, you're going to make mistakes 1275 00:57:34,300 --> 00:57:38,000 and a really hard thing to do. Sometimes that may be at our 1276 00:57:38,000 --> 00:57:40,700 personal communication level with somebody, you may make a 1277 00:57:40,700 --> 00:57:41,900 mistake, you may misjudge something. 1278 00:57:41,900 --> 00:57:44,600 You may be too emotional. You may miss read somebody 1279 00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,400 else's emotion, but it may also be something technical perhaps 1280 00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:49,600 that you kind of always staked your career on, we're going to 1281 00:57:49,600 --> 00:57:52,400 do this and you got to go. You know what? 1282 00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,600 I was wrong. Actually, that wasn't the best 1283 00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:58,000 option and now, I understand why that whole thing rather than 1284 00:57:58,000 --> 00:58:00,300 trying to hide it or dig into it that even more deeply. 1285 00:58:00,500 --> 00:58:03,600 That's a really important thing. Again, your stock goes up as a 1286 00:58:03,600 --> 00:58:06,300 result of that, but also, that's a compassion for yourself. 1287 00:58:06,500 --> 00:58:08,900 Don't hold yourself to unreasonable standards because 1288 00:58:08,900 --> 00:58:12,400 otherwise you'll always miss. So that's very much the idea of 1289 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:15,000 work with a growth mindset rather than a fixed mindset. 1290 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,600 So yeah, you're going to make mistakes. 1291 00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,900 We are always operating with incomplete knowledge and we are 1292 00:58:19,900 --> 00:58:22,500 inevitably imperfect and that's absolutely fine. 1293 00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:25,100 Just roll with that. That's the way that you do it 1294 00:58:25,100 --> 00:58:28,400 and there people will see them. Yeah, admitting we are wrong. 1295 00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,900 Sometimes is very difficult. We putting our Ourselves with 1296 00:58:30,900 --> 00:58:34,100 vulnerabilities, some people fear about being vulnerable 1297 00:58:34,100 --> 00:58:36,200 people being attacked, right? Yeah. 1298 00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:39,000 If I'm supposed to be the ACT but and I got something wrong. 1299 00:58:39,000 --> 00:58:41,400 Does that mean I'm no longer the expert on my got, that puts you, 1300 00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,200 in a very vulnerable position. As a perfectionism there, that 1301 00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,700 becomes quite predatory and quite dangerous and doesn't help 1302 00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:49,400 anybody's mood. Whereas actually is 1303 00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:50,700 occasionally. Yeah, you know, what you were 1304 00:58:50,700 --> 00:58:53,100 wrong and that's fine. It's okay to be wrong. 1305 00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:57,100 Yeah, especially in Tech where people have egos and have 1306 00:58:57,100 --> 00:59:00,300 impostor syndrome. So they tend to hide all this. 1307 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,400 So I think that's a very beautiful message, not to fear 1308 00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:07,000 of admitting, we are wrong sometimes, so Carolyn for people 1309 00:59:07,000 --> 00:59:10,500 who love to connect with you, or maybe follow some things that 1310 00:59:10,500 --> 00:59:12,900 you write or speak about. Is there a place where they can 1311 00:59:12,900 --> 00:59:15,100 find you online? Yeah, I'm going to number of 1312 00:59:15,107 --> 00:59:16,800 different places. My parents were kind enough to 1313 00:59:16,808 --> 00:59:18,700 give me an internet unique name before the internet was 1314 00:59:18,700 --> 00:59:20,500 invented. So, Carolyn Hannah is an easy 1315 00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:23,300 thing to find, so you can find me on Twitter there as Kevin 1316 00:59:23,300 --> 00:59:26,900 Haley, you can Follow me on Mastodon as Carolyn at Mastodon 1317 00:59:26,900 --> 00:59:29,100 social you can find me on LinkedIn. 1318 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,300 So these are the most obvious places where I hang out and so I 1319 00:59:32,308 --> 00:59:33,700 look forward to seeing people online. 1320 00:59:34,300 --> 00:59:36,500 I'll put that in the show notes, thank you so much for this time. 1321 00:59:36,500 --> 00:59:38,000 Kevin I learned a lot from you today. 1322 00:59:38,700 --> 00:59:43,900 Thank you, Henry. Thank you for listening to this 1323 00:59:43,900 --> 00:59:47,300 episode and for staying, right until the end, if you're highly 1324 00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:50,100 enjoyed it, I would appreciate if you share it with your 1325 00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:53,000 friends and colleagues who you think would also benefit from 1326 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,600 listening to this episode. And if you are new to the 1327 00:59:55,600 --> 00:59:58,600 podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable 1328 00:59:58,600 --> 01:00:01,600 review and feedback. It helps me a lot in order to 1329 01:00:01,600 --> 01:00:04,900 grow this podcast better. You can also find the full show 1330 01:00:04,900 --> 01:00:08,200 notes of this conversation on the episode page at tackling 1331 01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,400 Journal, dot death website, including the full transcript 1332 01:00:11,500 --> 01:00:13,500 interesting. Chords and links to the 1333 01:00:13,500 --> 01:00:15,800 resources mentioned, from the conversation. 1334 01:00:16,200 --> 01:00:19,200 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 1335 01:00:19,200 --> 01:00:22,200 list on package. You know, dot f to get notified 1336 01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:25,300 for any future episodes. Stay tuned for the next 1337 01:00:25,300 --> 01:00:26,700 technology. No episode. 1338 01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:28,600 And until then goodbye.