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Those three things Super Fan 
funnel to find the right. 

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People Loop design to create the
experience that people will want

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to stick around for and an 
concept testing so you don't get

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lost in the weeds and you 
actually figure out your 

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experience. 
Those three things together as a

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system where the input of one 
chunk is the output of the 

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previous, right? 
And that's how game Thinking 

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works. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya, we 
Robin. 

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And you're listening to the 
technology, you know, podcast 

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the show where I'll be bringing 
you the greatest technical 

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leaders practitioners and 
thought leaders in the industry 

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to discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hello again, to all of you, my 

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00:01:07,100 --> 00:01:09,800
friends and my listeners, 
welcome to the technology on our

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podcast, the show where you can 
learn about technical leadership

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00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:15,500
and Excellence from my 
conversations with great 

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thought, leaders in the tech 
industry. 

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If this is your first time 
listening to technology, you 

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know, subscribe and follow the 
show on your podcast app and 

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social media on LinkedIn, 
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And for those of you longtime 
listeners, if you find my 

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podcast helpful and want to show
your appreciation and support my

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work, you can subscribe as a 
patron at technology node death 

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/ Patron or buy me a coffee at 
pecola Journal dot. 

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F / tip, my guest. 
For today's episode is Amy Jo 

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Kim. 
Aiming is a game, designer 

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startup coach author and the 
co-founder of game thinking in 

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this episode, Amy shared how we 
can use game Thinking to build 

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better and successful products. 
That people want Chief has 

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described some top reasons why 
products fail and gave a few 

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tips to avoid. 
Up failure by validating our 

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ideas before building the 
product, Amy then, explain in 

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depth. 
The Three core ideas in game 

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Thinking which are identifying 
your superfans building a sticky

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cohabit Loop and validating the 
product concept using 

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storyboards towards the end. 
Amy shared, how we can get 

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started with game thinking, and 
why we should do it early in our

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product journey. 
I really enjoyed my conversation

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with Amy learning about game 
thinking, a, well, proven 

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technique. 
That has been used in multiple 

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successful, major games and 
products, such as rock band, The

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Sims eBay, Netflix and 
newyorktimes.com, I believe you 

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will also find this concept, 
interesting to apply in your 

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product development and avoid 
the costly mistakes of building 

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products that do not solve real 
user problems. 

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And if you do enjoy listening to
this episode, please help me, 

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00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:57,900
share it with your colleagues, 
or within your community. 

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So that more people can benefit 
from listening to this 

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conversation, also helped me 
grow the pie. 

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Cast by living, a five star 
rating and review on Apple 

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00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,300
podcast and Spotify to have more
people discover it on the 

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platforms. 
Let's go to the conversation 

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with Amy after a few words from 
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Hello everyone. 
Welcome back to another new 

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episode of the package, you 
know, podcast today, I'm very 

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happy. 
I attended her Workshop back in 

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2016 in Singapore. 
I think that was pretty long 

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time ago and at that moment, 
actually, I attended this 

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Workshop called game thinking, 
so my guest today is Amy Jo Kim.

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She's actually pretty well known
for this concept game thinking. 

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And she's also named by Fortune 
as one of the top 10 influential

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women in games, as you can tell,
Amy has a lot of game design, 

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kind of background also involved
in publishing, some of the 

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famous games, like rock band, 
and The Sims. 

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So today, we'll be talking a lot
about game thinking, how we can 

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apply it to actually do product 
validation, Building Product MVP

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and things like that. 
Amy, thank you so much for this 

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opportunity. 
Looking forward for our 

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conversation, it's a pleasure to
be here. 

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So Amy. 
I always like to start my 

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conversation with my guest by 
asking you to share any story 

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about your career or any turning
points or highlights that you 

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want to share with us here. 
Sure. 

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Like many of my friends in the 
gaming industry, I've got an 

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Eclectic background in 
Psychology neuroscience and 

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computer science and that 
includes a PhD in behavioral 

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Neuroscience. 
So what that essentially means 

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is that I really understand how 
to use the scientific Tiffany 

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method to get answers and I 
switch from being an academic to

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going into Tech and computers. 
When I realize that I could 

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build things that millions of 
people used. 

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And so, I did that. 
I built multimedia databases at 

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Sun Microsystems doing 
client-server engineering. 

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And then I switched over to 
design and producing working 

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with Brands like MTV Nickelodeon
and Star Trek. 

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Getting them onto the World Wide
Web working with Paramount and 

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Viacom, who's a major media 
conglomerate and that was 

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amazing, combining Tech and 
media. 

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And then came one of those 
turning points in my career 

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where they were moving. 
Our Design Lab to New York from 

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California, and I was given a 
choice to go ahead and move and 

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uproot my whole family and move 
to New York or stay and get 

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Severance and That's what I did.
And I launched with my partner, 

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a design studio to bring game 
and Community design, to Brands 

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and startups, and game studios, 
which is who are still serving. 

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And through that Design Studio, 
I worked as a game designer on 

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the Sims on rock, band on eBay, 
working on their reputation 

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system on Ultima Online and 
early on Netflix. vut fashion 

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Bejeweled and Tetris with my 
partner and recently, very 

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controversial and explosively 
popular, AI chatbot called 

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replica And so, I found that in 
my career whenever something was

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a little bit scary. 
To me, felt maybe a little out 

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of my depth, but I felt like I 
would work with great people. 

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I'd learn a lot from and I could
lift up and learn and become 

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better at my craft. 
Every time that happened, and I 

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took it, I was glad I did. 
And that's one of the things 

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about leaning into discomfort. 
I look back on all these hits. 

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Every one of them at some point 
was a nightmare. 

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We wondered if it would work. 
It was very uncomfortable, but 

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that's part of the secret of 
innovation is. 

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That's kind of how, you know, 
you're on the right track. 

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So that's what game Thinking 
came from, what you learned 

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about in that workshop and what 
we? 

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Now teach teams worldwide in our
training, programs is what we 

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learned working on. 
All these hits about what works.

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And also even more importantly, 
what doesn't work when you want 

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to Validate ideas and build the 
right product for the right 

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people. 
So you can read about this in 

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our book game Thinking, which we
published in 2018, you can learn

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the step by step system by 
signing up for our mailing list.

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We offer training programs, and 
we're really on a mission to 

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save millions of entrepreneurs 
and product leaders, billions of

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hours of time by testing ideas, 
smarter and faster. 

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Thank you for sharing your 
story. 

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So, one thing that I found very 
Very relevant in these days, 

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right? 
So you mentioned that you took 

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severance package and started 
your own journey. 

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I think in relation to some of 
the scenes happening in the tech

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industry, right there, a lot of 
layoffs. 

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People are also not certain in 
their jobs. 

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So what made you take that 
decision during that time when 

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you decided you want to take 
severance package and start your

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own Journey. 
Maybe some people here are 

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contemplating and thinking about
that, maybe it can share a 

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little bit of how you make your 
decision back then. 

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Absolutely. 
That's a great question because 

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it An easy decision. 
I absolutely loved the job, I 

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had, it was very prestigious. 
I got to work with top creators 

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at MTV and Nickelodeon, it was 
crazy, but I knew I didn't want 

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to move. 
We didn't yet have a family but 

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we wanted to and I wanted to be 
near parents potential 

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grandparents. 
So I was at that time of my life

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so I knew I didn't want to move.
And the other thing that made me

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take Severance frankly is I had 
clients lined up and this is I 

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think one of the takeaways I'd 
like to give to anyone listening

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relationships are a long game. 
If you just think extractive lie

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about relationships and think, 
what can someone do for me 

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course in naturally we think 
like that, we like to hang out 

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with people that can do stuff 
for us, but part of why I was 

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able to quit that job, take 
Severance and start my own 

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design studio is I had developed
a lot of relationships during my

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time at Sun and at Paramount, 
and then by a combat Paramount. 

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So then I would travel to New 
York every month. 

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Just part of how I knew. 
I didn't want to move there and 

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I developed relationships there 
as well. 

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And I had people lined up that 
were like, if you ever have 

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extra time, I'd really love to 
work with you. 

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So part of it was I put in the 
time, I think of it as putting 

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in my dues, I really developed 
very practical useful skills 

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that I brought to the table and 
I built relationships. 

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I went to conferences, I stayed 
in touch with people. 

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I I wrote for various 
Publications, then that was even

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pre-web. 
But I really shared what I was 

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learning. 
I develop relationships, I 

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stayed in touch with people and 
it's hard for me. 

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I'm an introvert, I like this. 
Like remote work thing. 

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It works for me, but it paid off
because when it was time to quit

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my job. 
I logged people that really 

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enjoyed working with me and one 
way or another and we're eager 

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to know what I was up to and if 
I would have room in my schedule

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and that gave me a lot. 
Of confidence. 

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I basically had three clients 
lined up, but what was 

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interesting is I really needed a
break, because as much as I 

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loved that job at Viacom, at the
time, was my boss. 

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It was all-consuming. 
It was a very intense job and 

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there was a lot of political 
stuff going on that complicated 

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it. 
I bet some of you are nodding 

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your heads because that just 
happens when we work in the real

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world, we are always doing our 
best in highly imperfect 

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situations and the politics. 
Can get really exhausting and 

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you feel like if you're away for
a weekend, all hell can break 

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loose. 
So there was just a lot of 

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stress to that job and we are at
playing at a fairly high level, 

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which was exciting, but 
stressful, I knew I didn't want 

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to do that but I also knew that 
I had relationships with people 

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that would vouch for me. 
That would introduce me to 

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people, I got a gig 10 years 
later that was based on the 

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relationship by built at Viacom 
years ago. 

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So I was able to leave. 
I really needed a break. 

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And part of what I did was 
because I had Severance, I said 

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to all of my potential clients, 
I'm not doing anything for two 

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00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:04,500
months, if you really need 
something right away, I can 

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00:12:04,500 --> 00:12:07,700
recommend some people, but I 
need two months and part of why 

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I did that is, I've learned 
something people that are in too

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much of a hurry often want to 
dump their problem on you. 

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And I'm really careful about 
taking clients in too much of a 

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hurry. 
It's a red flag so that kind of 

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got rid of the red flags. 
My world. 

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And in all honesty I spent a 
bunch of time playing music 

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which is I was Semi-Pro for 
years. 

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I just really love music. 
I was playing my bass all the 

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time I was playing in a band. 
I did more gigs, you know, I was

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really into that for a while I 
needed. 

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And I highly recommend giving 
yourself a break, even if it's a

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00:12:44,008 --> 00:12:48,000
month or two. 
It's so important to get clear 

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on what you miss, what you want 
to do, what you care about. 

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So I Really clear on that. 
I had job offers, but I decided 

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to launch my own Studio. 
Did it with my partner who's 

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also game designer and started 
taking clients. 

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I wanted to work with sometimes 
one at a time. 

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If it was really intense, like 
rock band. 

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Sometimes several at a time to 
community designed in 

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multiplayer game design, did ux 
design thrown in and a bunch of 

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system design and my background 
at Sun micro and as a computer 

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scientist, and as a 
neuroscientist system design, 

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comes naturally to me. 
So that was A place in gaming 

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that I gravitated to also when 
you do client-server engineering

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with multimedia databases, 
You're Building fault-tolerant 

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Systems right on game teams, I 
would often play a system design

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/ U ax / early prototyping role 
and that was really gratifying. 

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And the other thing that let me 
quit my job, take Severance and 

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start a business is I had a 
focus which is community / game 

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design. 
I was early on the internet. 

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Son was on the internet, really 
early, they built the internet. 

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My job was helping Brands, get 
onto the internet and the 

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mid-90s when the web was 
launching. 

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So a lot of history with getting
on to the internet and dealing 

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with multiplayer systems and 
that really became my specialty 

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and I can't recommend enough, 
Nisha NG down. 

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If you're wondering, gosh, can I
quit my job? 

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Do, what does that mean? 
What can I offer the world? 

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Am I just a contractor? 
One client at a time? 

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Or do I have a package? 
What do I do? 

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The more you're clear about what
you can do. 

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That's differentiated in the 
market and that the market 

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needs, key phrase, the market 
needs, the less you'll have to 

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worry about quitting your job 
because if you have something 

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the market needs and you know, 
how to deliver it, you can make 

250
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a business especially now with 
companies cutting back. 

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A lot of people are using 
Freelancers, but at the same 

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time, I know a lot of people 
might not have that. 

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And in that case, maybe look for
another job or maybe there's 

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something else you can do. 
That's not really my specialty. 

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I can really speak to myself 
which is I think as you're 

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building your career getting 
clearer and clearer on what you 

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offer, what your Edge is, what 
you're unfair advantages, what 

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you bring to the table, how you 
make companies, and people money

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is critical. 
And the bottom line of why I 

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always had work is a Studio 
owner and Real answer is that I 

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help people make a lot of money.
That's always what it comes down

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to, and that doesn't have to be 
avaricious. 

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It's about staying focused on 
providing value. 

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Wow. 
So there's a lot of things to 

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take away from your story. 
I think it is really relevant 

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for some people I believe. 
And when you said something 

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about politics and stress 
burnout and things like that, 

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I'm sure many people could 
relate that as well. 

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Especially these days, there are
so many pressures, so many 

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distractions as well, and so 
many competitions. 

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So, I believe some of you would 
relate to this story and a few 

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things that I take away from 
your sharing. 

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This now, is that relationship 
is a long game, right? 

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So build your relationship right
network with people. 

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That you want to be associated 
with and build the relationship 

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along the way. 
Who knows one day they would 

277
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come back and maybe become your 
friends or your clients, right? 

278
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,400
And the other thing is that 
before quitting you already have

279
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a few clients lined up. 
So I think that always helps. 

280
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So, instead of quitting your job
and starting from start, I think

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that is always the, the danger 
of putting pressure on yourself.

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And the other thing that I took 
away is that you advise people 

283
00:16:26,600 --> 00:16:29,500
to take a break, right? 
Finding out the things that we 

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00:16:29,500 --> 00:16:31,600
miss doing. 
So I think that's also very 

285
00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,700
important but we don't want to 
Just quit and find another gig 

286
00:16:34,700 --> 00:16:36,900
right size, sometimes we have to
look back. 

287
00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,900
What do we miss and take away on
some aspects of those? 

288
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:42,300
That probably will be useful for
us going forward. 

289
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,200
So thanks for sharing your story
and me. 

290
00:16:44,500 --> 00:16:47,500
So you mentioned in your intro 
that game thinking actually 

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00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:51,200
helps to save billions of hours 
for entrepreneurs or product 

292
00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,600
designers. 
So maybe if you can go there, 

293
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:56,300
what do you think are some of 
the top reasons? 

294
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,800
Product ideas, failing, maybe 
you have done a lot of 

295
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:02,600
Consulting with many clients. 
So if you can summarize, maybe 

296
00:17:02,600 --> 00:17:04,200
what? 
The top root causes do you 

297
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,300
think? 
So there's a lot of different 

298
00:17:07,300 --> 00:17:10,500
ones. 
The world is a complex place but

299
00:17:10,500 --> 00:17:15,900
by far the most common reason 
that products fail as a team 

300
00:17:15,900 --> 00:17:18,099
build something that they think 
is the right thing. 

301
00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:21,800
But that the market or the 
people their customers that need

302
00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,700
to use. 
It don't really need so building

303
00:17:24,700 --> 00:17:26,900
things, people don't need 
building features. 

304
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:30,900
People don't need or a small 
part of a market needs is by far

305
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:34,200
the most common feeling. 
And it takes many different 

306
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:39,600
forms that type of failure, but 
if you dig in, you find that the

307
00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,000
root cause is often that, the 
team didn't really validate the 

308
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,400
ideas or they give it lip 
service but they didn't really 

309
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:51,300
let the ideas have room to fail.
That's something that happens a 

310
00:17:51,308 --> 00:17:54,200
lot often. 
If we go back to politics 

311
00:17:54,700 --> 00:17:59,900
authen, they'll be culture at a 
company where Executives rise up

312
00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:02,100
and get further by saying, I 
have a great idea. 

313
00:18:02,100 --> 00:18:06,000
Let's do my Eight idea. 
And that's not actually a really

314
00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:10,000
good idea is get validated, but 
it can be scary to say, no to 

315
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,900
the rising star, the big boss. 
So people don't say no, that can

316
00:18:13,900 --> 00:18:17,200
be part of what goes on. 
The other thing that can happen 

317
00:18:17,500 --> 00:18:20,600
and this is where you really 
need rapid Innovation skills. 

318
00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:23,800
Not just Innovation skills, is 
the market can change right out 

319
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,300
from under you. 
We published a video recently, a

320
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,900
little mini case, study of an 
Indian client of ours. 

321
00:18:30,900 --> 00:18:33,800
A brilliant, very successful. 
Real entrepreneur. 

322
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:36,200
Two exits. 
Love the sky. 

323
00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,300
Learn a lot from him, but he had
a point and some of his 

324
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:43,700
companies were, you know, it 
Outsourcing companies that grew 

325
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:47,900
and grew and there is a point 
where business software was 

326
00:18:47,900 --> 00:18:51,400
switching the SAS a few years 
back and it was a huge shake-up 

327
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:53,800
in his industry. 
He was really struggling with 

328
00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,100
it. 
He came into our game Thinking 

329
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:59,700
training programs and used game 
Thinking to change the way he 

330
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:04,100
approached the product because 
the hole Industry was getting 

331
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:07,400
pulled out from under him and 
that happens repeatedly. 

332
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,500
If you're in Tech, disruption is
the name of the game, right? 

333
00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:13,700
Henry? 
Yeah, that's correct. 

334
00:19:13,700 --> 00:19:17,200
It's how it goes. 
You can't just go over done. 

335
00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:21,400
I work with, VP of engineering, 
head of engineering, all the 

336
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,100
time on leadership teams, you 
know, tackling tough products, 

337
00:19:25,100 --> 00:19:30,300
product issues, and it is very 
much a moving Target. 

338
00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:32,800
You can make yourself Crazy by 
trying to stay up. 

339
00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:35,800
To date on everything, you have 
to pick your battles, you have 

340
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:41,600
to pick your stack and really 
invest the thing that game 

341
00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:47,300
Thinking brings to the table, is
a lot of techniques from the 

342
00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,000
games industry. 
But also from the tech and 

343
00:19:50,008 --> 00:19:55,500
Product Industry of how to test 
ideas early and let yourself be 

344
00:19:55,500 --> 00:19:57,200
wrong on the path to being 
right. 

345
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,100
Which again, it's easy to give 
lip service to. 

346
00:20:00,100 --> 00:20:02,300
It's really hard to implement 
for. 

347
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:07,300
Cool reasons for I don't know 
how to do it reasons and what we

348
00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:11,500
do is make it step by step, easy
to implement. 

349
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:18,100
And the reason that we develop 
this is really simple burning 

350
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:22,700
Market need if anyone listening 
including you Henry and like, 

351
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:25,900
I've got 30 stories like this, 
if anyone listening is ever 

352
00:20:25,900 --> 00:20:29,300
been, part of a project, you are
really excited about and then 

353
00:20:29,300 --> 00:20:32,100
you shift it. 
And then you get that terrible 

354
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:35,600
feeling in your Stomach in your 
like, Muse isn't catching on 

355
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,200
this isn't working. 
This is not how I thought it was

356
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:42,000
gonna go. 
It's very frustrating to think 

357
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,800
that you have to even build a 
prototype to do that or design 

358
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:50,000
detailed screens. 
You don't what I learned working

359
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:56,700
on hits is that you can use low 
Fidelity, storyboards sketches, 

360
00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:01,200
all kinds of techniques like 
that to figure out what works 

361
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,300
and what doesn't without 
detailed designs and without 

362
00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:07,400
building a thing, the building 
and design goes on in parallel, 

363
00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:10,900
but that's not the fastest way 
to learn. 

364
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:15,300
And once I discovered that and I
saw hit after hit use these 

365
00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:17,800
techniques. 
While a lot of projects I worked

366
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:22,900
on, didn't I thought, hold up. 
More people need to know about 

367
00:21:22,900 --> 00:21:28,600
this and that's why I say saving
billions of hours there's really

368
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:34,300
Three core ideas and we've built
products prints around Them and 

369
00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:36,800
I don't want to overwhelm you 
with all the details because 

370
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:41,000
it's a pretty sophisticated 
system and it works, but there's

371
00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:46,900
really Three core ideas. 
The first is who you talk to and

372
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:49,800
it turns out we have this 
concept of superfans. 

373
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:55,800
It's means High need special 
beachhead niche of your Market 

374
00:21:56,500 --> 00:21:59,600
at. 
That's what it means and finding

375
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:04,000
a particular slice of your 
Market that Is seeking Solutions

376
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:05,700
and they show you through their 
behavior. 

377
00:22:05,700 --> 00:22:09,300
Not their words and aspirations 
that they're looking for the 

378
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:13,200
solution, finding that slice of 
your Market isn't easy, which is

379
00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:17,300
why we have all these templates 
and guidance, but when you do 

380
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:21,900
five to seven of those people is
more valuable than thousands of 

381
00:22:21,900 --> 00:22:24,800
demographic. 
Lee relevant people that don't 

382
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,700
have those qualities. 
So there's a surgical Precision 

383
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:37,100
in testing your ideas, Will 
speed up your ability to hit the

384
00:22:37,100 --> 00:22:39,900
mark and build the right product
like a hundred times. 

385
00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:44,400
It's astonishing. 
And we call that super fans, we 

386
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:46,300
have a technique called the 
Super Fan funnel. 

387
00:22:47,100 --> 00:22:50,700
So, that's one idea, is you 
don't just talk to your 

388
00:22:50,700 --> 00:22:52,800
customers or your potential 
customers. 

389
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:56,700
You talk to really specific ones
that represent exactly the 

390
00:22:56,700 --> 00:23:00,100
people that are getting give you
feedback, you need to listen to 

391
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:04,900
to make your product decisions. 
The second idea is really very 

392
00:23:04,900 --> 00:23:08,100
much out of gaming. 
It's something we call the core 

393
00:23:08,100 --> 00:23:12,200
Loop or the core habit Loop or 
the core learning Loop or the 

394
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:16,000
compulsion Loop. 
But in gaming least the 

395
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:20,000
multiplayer online gaming that I
practice your thing about 

396
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:23,200
retention from the get-go 
because you know often the 

397
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,600
business models built around 
that free-to-play or 

398
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,400
subscription. 
So how do you do that? 

399
00:23:28,400 --> 00:23:30,500
Well, you have to have a habit, 
you have to have like stuff. 

400
00:23:30,500 --> 00:23:32,700
They do over and over again, 
that pulls them back. 

401
00:23:33,500 --> 00:23:35,900
But the stuff can't be boring. 
It has to get more interesting 

402
00:23:35,900 --> 00:23:38,800
over time. 
How do you solve that problem? 

403
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:44,000
Well, you build a learning Loop 
or a habit Loop that has some 

404
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:48,400
sort of repeatable pleasurable 
activity in it that describes 

405
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,100
most games. 
Usually there's a chain of 

406
00:23:50,100 --> 00:23:55,200
activities but the loop itself, 
the journey, it's embedded in 

407
00:23:55,700 --> 00:23:58,200
changes over time, it gets more 
interesting over time, that's 

408
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:02,600
what keeps people around and 
it's so that combo which is 

409
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,000
Something I just learned from 
being on, you know, dozens of 

410
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,200
games, including these massive 
hits is something that any 

411
00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000
product can adopt, if you want 
to drive retention, it's not at 

412
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:19,100
all limited to games. 
But you don't see it in popular 

413
00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,900
methodologies, like, design 
thinking, or lean agile, even 

414
00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:27,100
jobs to be done, all of, which 
we Embrace and pull the best 

415
00:24:27,100 --> 00:24:29,800
elements from You. 
Don't See. 

416
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:32,500
How you build a sticky habit 
Loop? 

417
00:24:32,500 --> 00:24:35,900
You know, it would be nice to do
it, but how do you do it and 

418
00:24:35,900 --> 00:24:40,600
then who do you talk to? 
If you want to really test your 

419
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:44,300
ideas on the right, people 
quickly in rough form and then 

420
00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:49,200
the third piece is concept 
storyboards and this is a mix of

421
00:24:49,208 --> 00:24:54,100
what game designers call paper 
prototyping, where let's say 

422
00:24:54,108 --> 00:24:57,100
you're doing a board game or 
even other kinds of games and 

423
00:24:57,100 --> 00:25:00,100
some ux people do this, you 
know, cut up little paper. 

424
00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:03,700
Sir, if you're doing a board 
game, you mock up, you know, 

425
00:25:03,700 --> 00:25:07,200
with cardboard and paint or 
markers your game pieces and you

426
00:25:07,208 --> 00:25:09,700
might work out the rules of the 
game, you know, with your 

427
00:25:09,700 --> 00:25:13,100
buddies, over afternoon tea on 
your dining room table like that

428
00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:15,000
would be paper. 
Prototyping done. 

429
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,600
A lot of that. 
It's low Fidelity, prototyping, 

430
00:25:18,300 --> 00:25:23,000
a lot of people understand this 
but you also look at what Pixar 

431
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,800
does with their storyboarding 
and they do rough storyboarding 

432
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,100
for like a year. 
Working out their story testing 

433
00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,300
and on various people. 
Before they commit to the very 

434
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:34,600
expensive and detailed process 
of Animation. 

435
00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:36,600
So you don't need to do it for a
year. 

436
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,400
But it turns out that you can 
storyboard your end-to-end 

437
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,200
experience, not the details of 
the screens, not your prototype,

438
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:48,600
but just what experience do we 
want to deliver? 

439
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:51,300
You can do that before. 
You've built anything before. 

440
00:25:51,300 --> 00:25:54,100
You've designed anything, before
you've committed to a design 

441
00:25:54,100 --> 00:25:57,900
Direction, you can do it for 
features major features in the 

442
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:00,300
in launching and you can test 
it. 

443
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,200
Especially if you know exactly 
the right people to test it on 

444
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:08,500
those three things, Super Fan 
funnel to find the right, people

445
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,800
Loop design to create the 
experience that people will want

446
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:17,800
to stick around for and and 
concept testing so you don't get

447
00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,900
lost in the weeds and you 
actually figure out your 

448
00:26:20,900 --> 00:26:25,700
experience, those three things 
together as a system working as 

449
00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:30,300
a system where the input of one 
chunk is the output. 

450
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:33,700
Out of the previous, right? 
For every engineer out there, I 

451
00:26:33,708 --> 00:26:35,200
have a big engineering 
background. 

452
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:38,800
I built a lot of systems and 
that's how it goes. 

453
00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,300
You modularize it and you figure
out your inputs and outputs and 

454
00:26:42,300 --> 00:26:47,500
that's how game Thinking Works. 
We've run our signature training

455
00:26:47,500 --> 00:26:50,500
program, which is the game that 
you master class, hundreds of 

456
00:26:50,500 --> 00:26:53,800
people dozens and dozens of 
teams of run through it. 

457
00:26:54,300 --> 00:27:00,200
And the thing, I most often hear
a few things one, I wish I'd 

458
00:27:00,200 --> 00:27:01,400
done. 
At six months ago. 

459
00:27:01,900 --> 00:27:04,900
So if you're wondering, if it's 
like too early, it's like the 

460
00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:08,300
earlier, the better, but you can
also do it once your product is 

461
00:27:08,500 --> 00:27:11,200
out there and you're trying to 
fix your leaky bucket, retention

462
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:14,700
issues, a lot of people do that.
The other thing we hear all the 

463
00:27:14,700 --> 00:27:20,200
time is that save me probably a 
year 9 months to a year? 

464
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,600
I thought now I know something. 
I thought it was going to take 

465
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,700
me a year to figure out and 
that's why we do what we do 

466
00:27:27,700 --> 00:27:31,500
because we see the results and 
we hear not Not from what we 

467
00:27:31,500 --> 00:27:35,100
think but what the people who 
did it think, how much time they

468
00:27:35,100 --> 00:27:38,800
think it's save them. 
That sounds really amazing to 

469
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:40,400
me. 
Just now what you mentioned, 

470
00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:41,700
right? 
I think it makes sense. 

471
00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:45,500
So one thing that I just want to
touch on a little bit at these 

472
00:27:45,500 --> 00:27:48,000
kind of things have been shared 
by many people write, maybe 

473
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:50,900
especially in the product. 
So we don't want to build a 

474
00:27:50,900 --> 00:27:53,400
product that market doesn't 
need. 

475
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:56,900
But somehow, I think many people
including me sometimes when I 

476
00:27:56,900 --> 00:27:59,900
have an idea, right? 
So sometimes the tendency is for

477
00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:03,500
us to just go build and design 
it instead of validating doing 

478
00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:07,100
this prototype, finding people 
who actually want it or need it.

479
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,500
Right talk to them, maybe a few 
tips. 

480
00:28:10,500 --> 00:28:13,200
Like the last tips that you want
to give for people who know 

481
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:16,000
about this concept, they 
understand the theory, right? 

482
00:28:16,200 --> 00:28:19,200
But why they are not moving into
that direction and start 

483
00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:21,800
building instead? 
So maybe a few tips, how you 

484
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,400
would nudge people to just 
again. 

485
00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:26,800
Gold by the direction of unit, 
testing your idea before you 

486
00:28:26,808 --> 00:28:31,600
actually build any tips that 
there Amy Yeah, well, I want to 

487
00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,100
start with empathy because I was
that person with itchy hands 

488
00:28:37,100 --> 00:28:40,500
wanting to build stuff and 
wanting to design specific 

489
00:28:40,500 --> 00:28:44,400
things because I think once you 
know how to do that and you've 

490
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,900
had success with that we all as 
humans lean on the techniques 

491
00:28:49,900 --> 00:28:52,100
and strategies that have brought
of success. 

492
00:28:52,500 --> 00:28:53,900
So I think that's something. 
You know how to do. 

493
00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:55,600
You're naturally inclined to do 
it. 

494
00:28:55,900 --> 00:29:00,100
We also have some people who are
Engineers who Managed to kind of

495
00:29:00,108 --> 00:29:03,200
prototype their way into certain
things, that's really what the 

496
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,000
Lean Startup is. 
Its some things written by an 

497
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,700
engineer and that's the kind of 
things, he knows how to do. 

498
00:29:09,100 --> 00:29:12,900
So I have a lot of empathy for 
wanting to do it for feeling 

499
00:29:12,900 --> 00:29:16,300
like just ship it build it, 
that's how you learn and 

500
00:29:16,300 --> 00:29:19,100
occasionally it works, which is 
occasionally. 

501
00:29:19,100 --> 00:29:22,000
You also win the lottery 
occasionally, you win at Vegas, 

502
00:29:22,300 --> 00:29:27,000
but the house has the advantage.
And one of the most dangerous 

503
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,600
things I see and I work with 
some really, I Clients is people

504
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,100
that kind of stumbled into 
building something and it worked

505
00:29:36,100 --> 00:29:38,700
and then they try it again and 
they try it again and they try 

506
00:29:38,700 --> 00:29:41,400
to reproduce that magic and they
blow through hundreds of 

507
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:46,000
millions of dollars if they had 
a big success early on doesn't 

508
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:50,300
work as it technique but 
sometimes you luck out and you 

509
00:29:50,300 --> 00:29:54,200
stumble into it. 
So I want to acknowledge that. 

510
00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:59,500
If you've ever felt that way, it
absolutely happens, but it I 

511
00:29:59,508 --> 00:30:02,200
work over and over again, is 
what I've seen with my own 

512
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,500
clients. 
When I've seen people including 

513
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:09,300
myself, make the transition 
advice. 

514
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:11,900
Number one is, it's going to be 
uncomfortable. 

515
00:30:11,900 --> 00:30:14,200
It's going to feel like walking 
over hot, coals. 

516
00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,500
It's going to feel wronged your 
brains going to go. 

517
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,100
Why am I wasting my time? 
And if you're so easily, swayed,

518
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:25,200
then, stop listening. 
Like I can't really help you. 

519
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,500
I don't work that hard to 
convince people because I've 

520
00:30:28,500 --> 00:30:32,500
learned Got to walk with the 
willing and there's a lot of 

521
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:36,800
willing I'm not in the business 
of arguing about terminology or 

522
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:40,200
convincing people. 
I'm in the business of holding 

523
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,700
your hand when you walk over the
hot coals. 

524
00:30:42,900 --> 00:30:47,900
So you get to the other side and
get to the value and if it's not

525
00:30:47,900 --> 00:30:50,600
uncomfortable, you're not 
learning, is what I've learned. 

526
00:30:50,900 --> 00:30:55,700
So that's one thing is that 
there's a discomfort that you 

527
00:30:55,700 --> 00:31:00,200
can actually use to guide you. 
Another thing is, There's help 

528
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,300
there's a lot of advice out. 
There are programs, you know, 

529
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,200
let you do in three months, what
it would take you a year. 

530
00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:11,100
So you can get guidance specific
expert, weekly coaching, and 

531
00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:14,900
advice, and all that stuff. 
It's out there if you want it. 

532
00:31:14,900 --> 00:31:17,500
So come and check out all the 
things we offer. 

533
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:21,300
Because, as you can see, I'm 
very passionate about saving 

534
00:31:21,300 --> 00:31:24,200
people time. 
Another piece of just Hands-On 

535
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:30,000
advice for you yourself is who 
you ignore is Every bit as 

536
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,100
important as who you listen to 
and one of the most common 

537
00:31:34,100 --> 00:31:40,200
things that startup Founders 
including myself do is want to 

538
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,200
be everything to everyone. 
They say, no, no, no, I'm 

539
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:45,400
narrowing it down. 
I'll just, you know, moms with 

540
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:50,500
young kids ages, you know, 2245,
and that's not narrowing it 

541
00:31:50,500 --> 00:31:54,700
down. 
It's very, very hard to lean 

542
00:31:54,700 --> 00:31:59,300
into the reality that you need 
to Niche way down. 

543
00:31:59,500 --> 00:32:02,900
Down to grow big, you need to 
get really specific. 

544
00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:06,600
You need to find people with the
problem in the market. 

545
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,500
People say, oh, I'm innovating, 
I can't do it, and that's 

546
00:32:09,500 --> 00:32:12,100
bullshit. 
You can always find people with 

547
00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:14,100
a problem. 
You just have to know where to 

548
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:17,200
look, and if you can't find 
people with a problem, that 

549
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,600
might be a signal to you that 
this isn't a problem, the market

550
00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,900
needs solved. 
And guess what? 

551
00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:27,100
Finding that out after two or 
three months of low, Fidelity 

552
00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:29,300
work versus building and 
shipping. 

553
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,000
Thanks, just think for a minute 
about how much time and money 

554
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,000
that saves well. 
So I think that's very precious 

555
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,300
tips. 
I think it's very uncomfortable,

556
00:32:39,300 --> 00:32:41,300
especially For Engineers who 
know how to build, right? 

557
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:43,700
We always jump into solution 
instead of thinking. 

558
00:32:43,700 --> 00:32:46,500
What problem do you want to do? 
Thanks for sharing that tip. 

559
00:32:46,500 --> 00:32:49,900
So, I feel that people here 
needs to hear this more often, 

560
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:51,800
because that's where the 
learning is. 

561
00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,100
And don't forget, also, you have
to narrow down before you go, 

562
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,500
big, right? 
So all this thinking, in that 

563
00:32:57,500 --> 00:33:00,100
space, other than thinking, how 
do I Make this big. 

564
00:33:00,100 --> 00:33:01,900
How do I make this successful 
viral? 

565
00:33:02,100 --> 00:33:04,800
So thanks for sharing that. 
So you mentioned this term 

566
00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,700
called Super Fan, right? 
And I hear you saying that, 

567
00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:10,800
yeah, we need to find people who
really need the solutions that 

568
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,000
we want to deliver, right? 
So is there any specific 

569
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,700
technique how we can find people
who are really like the Super 

570
00:33:16,700 --> 00:33:18,700
Fan, right? 
People who really in dire needs 

571
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:22,500
to have this problem solved. 
So we have a pretty detailed 

572
00:33:22,500 --> 00:33:25,300
process and I'm not going to 
lie. 

573
00:33:25,500 --> 00:33:28,500
If it was snap your fingers, 
easy, everybody would do it 

574
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,100
there. 
There are some Ninja shortcuts 

575
00:33:32,100 --> 00:33:37,000
though that are the absolute 
best way to do it. 

576
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:40,800
If you're in a hurry and you 
want to cut to the Chase and be 

577
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:47,000
smart and my best ninjas 
shortcut is figure out who your 

578
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,500
closest competition is and don't
say, you don't have competition 

579
00:33:50,900 --> 00:33:54,500
figure out what they're doing 
instead because if you launch 

580
00:33:54,500 --> 00:33:57,000
something or not, people are 
still going to be like out there

581
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,200
getting their problem solved. 
Right regardless of your 

582
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,800
solution. 
So, if you either have something

583
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:07,500
in the market, or you want to 
launch something, or you want to

584
00:34:07,508 --> 00:34:11,300
make a major new feature update,
that sort of thing, find people 

585
00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,500
that have the problem that you 
solve that are already trying to

586
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:18,300
do something in the market using
a competitor, which doesn't have

587
00:34:18,300 --> 00:34:20,199
to be a nap. 
Sometimes, the competitor is a 

588
00:34:20,199 --> 00:34:24,000
spreadsheet or an exercise class
at a park or something like that

589
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:28,500
but find people that have 
actively search for a solution. 

590
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:33,199
Ocean that you would then serve 
who are using a competitor and 

591
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:35,500
interview them. 
Don't get them to tell you about

592
00:34:35,500 --> 00:34:37,800
your product. 
Get them to tell you about how 

593
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,199
they use the competitor product.
And we again we have a whole 

594
00:34:41,199 --> 00:34:44,100
technique for doing this. 
But irregardless of our 

595
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:47,000
technique, this is something 
that you can go do. 

596
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:52,699
It's friggin cold. 
It causes you to do all the 

597
00:34:52,699 --> 00:34:56,600
right analysis, which is who are
our key Market competitors from 

598
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,200
the customers point of view, 
right? 

599
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,400
Not from our point of view from 
the customers, point of view and

600
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,500
then getting them to tell you 
about their problem in the 

601
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:06,900
context of the competitor. 
What's working, what's not 

602
00:35:06,900 --> 00:35:10,300
working? 
Gives you a view of the problem 

603
00:35:10,300 --> 00:35:14,100
space that might take you four 
to six months to get otherwise 

604
00:35:14,100 --> 00:35:17,700
it's amazing. 
I think that's really a powerful

605
00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:19,500
shot got right. 
Look at your competitors 

606
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:22,800
interview and talk to people. 
Use that competition products 

607
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:26,100
and validate what works and what
doesn't work and for people who 

608
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:30,000
think that their idea is really 
Niche, or maybe uniquely new, I 

609
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,900
think, maybe think again. 
So, almost everything be in 

610
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:35,300
these days would have 
Alternatives in the market, 

611
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:37,600
right? 
So maybe it is not totally new, 

612
00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,200
kind of a problem to be solved. 
So, thanks for sharing that the 

613
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,900
second part of your game 
thinking is building call habit 

614
00:35:43,900 --> 00:35:46,200
Loop, right? 
So, is this something that a 

615
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,500
technique that you take from 
maybe things like Power of Habit

616
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,000
or maybe hook right? 
From near a l. 

617
00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,400
Is there something that we need 
to think about how to build a 

618
00:35:54,400 --> 00:36:00,300
habit, what, both of those 
books, really lean more heavily 

619
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,900
on behavior, modification Loops 
I've read both and in detail, I 

620
00:36:05,908 --> 00:36:10,300
like Atomic habits, much more 
because it brings in identity, 

621
00:36:10,300 --> 00:36:15,300
and it doesn't try and sell a 
behavior modification, Skinner 

622
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:19,100
box loop as a solution which The
Power of Habit. 

623
00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:22,000
If you just literally look at 
their Loop, A Skinner box and 

624
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,700
same with near yells book. 
He's moved on, he's talking 

625
00:36:24,700 --> 00:36:27,500
about new stuff now. 
I wouldn't take that too. 

626
00:36:27,500 --> 00:36:32,300
Seriously, Be Inspired, but be 
really careful about the 

627
00:36:32,300 --> 00:36:34,800
techniques that boil down to 
behavior mod. 

628
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:40,400
I like Atomic habits and our 
core Loop really comes out of my

629
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,400
experience in game design, being
a working game designer in 

630
00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:49,000
system designer, and needing to 
understand that and model. 

631
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:52,500
And it was just something that 
was Part of my Arsenal that I 

632
00:36:52,500 --> 00:36:55,200
learned from working with other 
people and then Incorporated, 

633
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,100
and then developed and, you 
know, it was part of how we 

634
00:36:58,200 --> 00:36:59,900
understood. 
Okay, what game are we going to 

635
00:36:59,900 --> 00:37:02,100
build? 
And how are we going to tune it 

636
00:37:02,100 --> 00:37:06,600
and blah blah blah think that 
Power of Habit hooked, good, 

637
00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,700
starting point beyond that, I 
definitely recommend Atomic 

638
00:37:09,700 --> 00:37:13,200
habits and then I look at game 
thinking because what we're 

639
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:17,600
really getting into is system 
thinking and system design, but 

640
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,400
we're not calling it that, we're
slipping it in the back door. 

641
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:26,700
Because this isn't a system 
design book but there's a ton of

642
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:30,800
system design in it. 
And I'd say that's really the 

643
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,600
difference is incentive design 
system, design progression 

644
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,800
design versus a manipulative 
behavior model Loop. 

645
00:37:39,300 --> 00:37:42,700
Any time someone tells you that 
a variable reinforcement 

646
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,400
schedule is the secret to 
engagement, they don't 

647
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:51,500
understand what real engagement 
is because that's That's what 

648
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:54,000
the one-armed Bandit gambling 
Loop is. 

649
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,000
That's very addictive. 
But it's also outlawed in a lot 

650
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,500
of States. 
So, no you don't want your Uber 

651
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:02,900
app, giving you a variable 
reinforcement. 

652
00:38:02,900 --> 00:38:05,000
You wanted to be consistent and 
reliable. 

653
00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:08,900
So, I think there's a lot of bad
advice out there. 

654
00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:12,400
That sounds good. 
And in some circumstances, makes

655
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,100
sense. 
And I use certain Behavior mod 

656
00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:18,700
Skinner, box mechanics in 
certain designs where it makes 

657
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:22,600
sense, but it's not Panacea. 
So you know to help you 

658
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,200
understand what do I mean by 
System thinking so if you're 

659
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:30,600
designing a habit Loop a coral 
Loop, sometimes it's called a 

660
00:38:30,600 --> 00:38:33,000
compulsion Loop. 
That tends to get more into that

661
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,500
Skinner box design. 
Let's say you're designing 

662
00:38:35,500 --> 00:38:38,800
something for a casino, right? 
That's a kind of game design. 

663
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:42,200
That's you're going to drive 
certain behaviors, but those 

664
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:49,100
Loops are a system, and its not 
just a trigger, and a habit, and

665
00:38:49,100 --> 00:38:52,100
a result, it, It's an incentive 
system. 

666
00:38:52,300 --> 00:38:55,900
And if you don't put learning 
and skill building into your 

667
00:38:55,900 --> 00:38:58,500
loop, it's going to get really 
boring because there's nothing 

668
00:38:58,500 --> 00:39:01,300
to get better at. 
So, the core idea of a learning 

669
00:39:01,300 --> 00:39:05,200
Loop which comes out of games, 
is your habit, Loop has skill 

670
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:07,700
building built into it and 
that's what keeps it 

671
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:08,900
interesting. 
Either something you can get 

672
00:39:08,900 --> 00:39:12,700
better at in some way and that's
completely missing. 

673
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,500
That idea is completely missing 
from the first two books. 

674
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,300
You mentioned and that's a 
really, really really important 

675
00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:23,800
idea. 
Cuz Skinner box mechanics 

676
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:27,600
backfire overtime. 
They have really good stats at 

677
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,400
first but they backfire over 
time. 

678
00:39:29,900 --> 00:39:34,000
And again we have a lot of 
psychology that we share with 

679
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:36,700
our customers in an efficient 
way to help. 

680
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:41,700
You understand why that is and 
how to combine extrinsic and 

681
00:39:41,700 --> 00:39:45,300
intrinsic rewards to drive 
long-term engagement which is if

682
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:46,900
you want that, that's the way to
do it. 

683
00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:51,300
You walk that middle line. 
So for system, Thinking we have 

684
00:39:51,300 --> 00:39:54,300
this core Loop which I like to 
think of as what are people 

685
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:57,900
doing on day, 21 or day, 30 
model it out. 

686
00:39:58,200 --> 00:39:59,700
How is it different than day, 
two, or day? 

687
00:39:59,700 --> 00:40:04,100
Three, you know, kind of get 
started there and then there's 

688
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:07,500
how you design incentive, and 
progression systems. 

689
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,300
So simple, gamification levels, 
and points and badges often 

690
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:15,200
results in something. 
That feels like clutter, a 

691
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,700
really good progression system. 
Might not even be visible, it 

692
00:40:19,700 --> 00:40:22,100
might just open up. 
New challenges or maybe things 

693
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:24,400
get harder. 
It really depends on what you're

694
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:29,200
doing and incentive systems are 
related to progression systems. 

695
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:34,000
But when we talk system design, 
you can look at any progression 

696
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,700
System, including hey, I threw 
some points and badges and 

697
00:40:36,700 --> 00:40:39,200
levels at it. 
How about a leaderboard? 

698
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,600
Yeah, I think I'm done, right? 
You can put that in. 

699
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,000
But then, what are you 
incentivizing? 

700
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,500
It. 
Totally depends on like, where 

701
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:49,500
you put it and what behaviors it
shaping and all that. 

702
00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:54,500
So, So a lot of what we work on 
in game thinking, we give you 

703
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:59,600
the tools to understand how to 
tell what the right incentive 

704
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,300
system is how to tell what the 
right progression system is if 

705
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:05,600
you want to throw some 
gamification in their great, 

706
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:07,500
here's how to test it with the 
right people. 

707
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,500
And they will tell you if it's 
working or not. 

708
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:16,200
The other thing is, systems are 
90% balancing and tuning 5 to 

709
00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:19,300
10% design. 
And that's something that a lot 

710
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:22,200
of people especially if they Lot
of web designer, they design 

711
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,400
Pages or, you know, they design 
something that's a little bit 

712
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,400
simpler, they don't really 
understand it. 

713
00:41:29,300 --> 00:41:33,100
And so part of what game 
Thinking brings to the table 

714
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:36,100
again, that takes it Beyond 
agile and lean and design 

715
00:41:36,100 --> 00:41:41,100
thinking is understanding that 
and building artifacts that help

716
00:41:41,100 --> 00:41:45,600
you know, which systems to 
build, because this is how real 

717
00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:48,200
stuff happens. 
The interesting part of games 

718
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,000
isn't the points and badges in 
the graphics. 

719
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,900
It's The system's underneath. 
Well, there's so many things you

720
00:41:53,900 --> 00:41:56,400
unpack here. 
So if I can maybe take a few 

721
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,500
things that I took away first is
that you don't just build a 

722
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:02,200
queue trigger and then you build
a habit and then you get the 

723
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,000
result right. 
It's not as simple as that, but 

724
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,500
there's a whole Associated 
systems, underlying your 

725
00:42:06,500 --> 00:42:09,800
product, or maybe your games if 
you're building a game, and a 

726
00:42:09,808 --> 00:42:12,200
few things that I picked the 
first is about skill building, 

727
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,600
right? 
Don't just build a loop in which

728
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,800
the smaller habitual Behavior 
change, right? 

729
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:19,600
But it's also a skill building 
where people have progression, 

730
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:23,000
there's a new challenge You'll 
difficulty or maybe new features

731
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,600
that they need to unearth by 
using your product. 

732
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:27,800
And the second is also think 
about the incentive and 

733
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,700
progression especially related 
to skill building because people

734
00:42:31,700 --> 00:42:33,900
at the end of the day, after 
using a product several times, 

735
00:42:33,900 --> 00:42:37,200
they want to get challenge, or 
they want to find something new 

736
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,900
to upskill themselves. 
So, I think this is also a key 

737
00:42:39,900 --> 00:42:43,900
thing for us to build a product 
that may be small sticky or has 

738
00:42:43,900 --> 00:42:46,600
a higher retention rate compared
to other product. 

739
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,700
So, thanks for sharing that Amy.
So the last part where you 

740
00:42:49,700 --> 00:42:52,700
mentioned is about Concept 
validation or storyboarding. 

741
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:56,200
So for people who hear about 
storyboarding is it really 

742
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:59,200
necessary to build some kind of 
persona Journey user Journey or 

743
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:00,900
things like that. 
So maybe a little bit of 

744
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:02,700
explaining. 
What do you mean by concept? 

745
00:43:02,700 --> 00:43:08,700
Storyboarding and validating it.
So it's really easy on any 

746
00:43:08,700 --> 00:43:15,100
project to dive into the details
of screen design and feature 

747
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:19,400
lists and prds, right. 
I've definitely lived in that 

748
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:22,700
world for many years. 
And a lot of agile teams, get 

749
00:43:22,700 --> 00:43:26,900
into building fast and 
effectively, but you, maybe 

750
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:29,700
you're not building the right 
thing which is why I said the 

751
00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:31,900
most common problem is not 
building the right thing. 

752
00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,900
But how do you figure out how to
build the right thing? 

753
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:41,300
It turns out that you can get a 
lot of false positives with very

754
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:44,200
detailed designs. 
People get involved in 

755
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,400
discussing the details. 
It looks so pretty. 

756
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,400
They can say, I love it, but it 
might not actually solve their 

757
00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:53,000
No problem. 
How do you know, if you're 

758
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:56,000
solving the right problem? 
How do you actually validate if 

759
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,100
you're solving the right 
problem? 

760
00:43:57,100 --> 00:44:01,800
How do you validate if the 
string of features that you're 

761
00:44:01,800 --> 00:44:06,400
imagining delivering, how do you
visualize the experience? 

762
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,200
Your customers going to have, if
indeed you were to deliver those

763
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,400
features. 
That's what you can do. 

764
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,600
With the concept storyboard, you
can visualize in a very low 

765
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:22,200
Fidelity way, not what? 
Your product looks and feels 

766
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,300
like and all the details of it 
but what your product will do 

767
00:44:26,300 --> 00:44:30,400
for your customers in their 
environment over time. 

768
00:44:31,500 --> 00:44:34,800
You can do it with stick 
figures, you can do it with 

769
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:39,000
canva plug-in stuff. 
In our programs, we have a whole

770
00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:43,100
set of these plug-and-play. 
Little figurines that we've 

771
00:44:43,100 --> 00:44:46,200
developed over time, you can 
hire a storyboard otters, 

772
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:50,600
there's so many ways to do it 
but again it's low Fidelity, 

773
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:55,400
it's super simple and it forces 
you to think through your 

774
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:58,800
end-to-end experience and then 
to introduce for instance, new 

775
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,200
features you're thinking of In 
the context of that end in 

776
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:07,300
experience, which you visualized
by removing a lot of the detail 

777
00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:09,500
about your product. 
So you don't get lost in all 

778
00:45:09,500 --> 00:45:14,500
that detail and really focusing 
on here's a person they're 

779
00:45:14,500 --> 00:45:19,800
engaging around and about and 
inside your product sometimes 

780
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:22,200
they might be talking about your
product with someone else, 

781
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,500
sometimes they might be logging 
in what triggers them. 

782
00:45:25,500 --> 00:45:28,000
It's day. 21. 
What reminds them to log in, 

783
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:29,100
right? 
What happened? 

784
00:45:29,100 --> 00:45:30,700
If they turned off 
notifications? 

785
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,000
And what you do is you don't 
show every screen which is very 

786
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,900
hard for designers. 
You show the key beats of the 

787
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:40,700
experience. 
Your customers going to have 

788
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:41,900
that's going to deliver the 
value. 

789
00:45:41,900 --> 00:45:44,200
They're there to get bottom 
line. 

790
00:45:44,800 --> 00:45:48,100
And so you abstract out all that
detailing, you really say, okay,

791
00:45:48,500 --> 00:45:50,300
what are they doing? 
Where are they? 

792
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:53,900
Are they holding their phone or 
the in front of a computer and 

793
00:45:53,900 --> 00:45:56,500
star? 
They, you know, what are they 

794
00:45:56,500 --> 00:45:57,900
doing? 
When are they using this 

795
00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,500
overtime? 
Who are they interacting with 

796
00:46:00,500 --> 00:46:06,200
the Anybody and it's not easy to
do if you haven't thought about 

797
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:09,500
it which is why we have training
programs and templates. 

798
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:16,800
But when you do that, you have 
an artifact that serves multiple

799
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:20,100
strategic purposes in your 
organization. 

800
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,400
One it's amazing for 
communicating with stakeholders.

801
00:46:24,500 --> 00:46:28,400
It's not all the details. 
It's just here's what this 

802
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:29,800
product is going to do for 
people. 

803
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:33,500
And often a stakeholder when 
you're trying to explain what 

804
00:46:33,500 --> 00:46:36,400
you're doing, why you want to do
it, you're negotiating for 

805
00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:40,200
resources, this is incredible. 
I have seen this kind of 

806
00:46:40,200 --> 00:46:43,300
document this kind of story 
board when you've tested it and 

807
00:46:43,300 --> 00:46:47,200
gotten results, get multiple 
projects fun and greenlit. 

808
00:46:47,500 --> 00:46:49,900
So it's an amazing, stakeholder 
communication. 

809
00:46:49,900 --> 00:46:53,600
Doc, it's also an amazing team 
communication. 

810
00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,000
Doc. 
How does the head of engineering

811
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:58,400
and the head of design? 
And, you know, maybe they had a 

812
00:46:58,408 --> 00:47:01,800
customer service or marketing. 
How do they On agree, on the 

813
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,800
thing you're building, is it all
the detailed screens? 

814
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:10,000
If you can get your 
cross-functional team, whether 

815
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:12,200
it's, you know, a product 
manager in a researcher, and a 

816
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:15,600
designer, or I work a lot with 
Executives. 

817
00:47:15,600 --> 00:47:17,900
So it'll be heads of all the 
people that care about the 

818
00:47:17,900 --> 00:47:21,300
product, if you can get them 
working together and 

819
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:25,200
understanding what you're 
building one, you can test it. 

820
00:47:25,500 --> 00:47:29,100
And it turns out, if you get the
right superfans for testing five

821
00:47:29,100 --> 00:47:31,400
to seven of them and you get The
answers you need with these 

822
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:34,800
storyboards. 
So it's good for stakeholder 

823
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,500
communication, it's good for 
team, communication and 

824
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:45,200
collaborative design, and it's 
good for idea and feature, and 

825
00:47:45,200 --> 00:47:50,400
incentive system, testing of all
kinds before you've designed or 

826
00:47:50,400 --> 00:47:54,600
built anything. 
So these Concepts storyboards 

827
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:58,400
serve the right purpose. 
There's a really great book 

828
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,600
called understanding comics. 
Scott McCloud. 

829
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,500
I recently published a short 
review of it and so are like top

830
00:48:05,500 --> 00:48:10,300
five books for innovators and he
talks about the power of having 

831
00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:13,600
as little detail as possible in 
your graphics. 

832
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:17,100
So that the person looking at 
the graphics can read themselves

833
00:48:17,100 --> 00:48:21,600
into it and identify. 
So while I think the key message

834
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,800
here is not about building 
elaborate design and building a 

835
00:48:24,808 --> 00:48:27,700
little elaborate user journey. 
I think the key thing here that 

836
00:48:27,700 --> 00:48:30,700
you mentioned is to figure out 
how to build the right, A thing 

837
00:48:30,700 --> 00:48:33,800
or even validating, whether we 
are solving the right problem. 

838
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,300
Right? 
So, we don't need the super 

839
00:48:35,300 --> 00:48:38,700
elaborate details High Fidelity 
and things like that, but do it 

840
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:41,600
in a prototype manner. 
Low Fidelity, maybe even paper 

841
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:44,500
napkin or maybe Sticky Fingers, 
like you mentioned so that we 

842
00:48:44,500 --> 00:48:47,300
get the validation and also 
figuring out whether we are 

843
00:48:47,300 --> 00:48:50,200
solving the right problem. 
So thanks for sharing that Amy. 

844
00:48:50,300 --> 00:48:52,700
I feel like there are so many 
things good Concepts here that 

845
00:48:52,700 --> 00:48:55,900
you shared for Founders or 
entrepreneurs, or maybe product 

846
00:48:55,900 --> 00:48:59,000
leaders out there who hear about
these techniques from this 

847
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,200
episode. 
Is there anything? 

848
00:49:00,300 --> 00:49:03,500
Takeaways that you want to give 
for them to start thinking about

849
00:49:03,500 --> 00:49:06,000
game thinking because I feel 
that in some parts of the world.

850
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:08,800
I just feel that this is not 
popular enough for people to 

851
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:10,700
know. 
They are more towards lean 

852
00:49:10,700 --> 00:49:13,200
agile, design Sprint, and things
like that. 

853
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:15,900
How would you nudge people to 
start looking at games thinking?

854
00:49:17,100 --> 00:49:21,300
So it's true. 
It's not as popular largely 

855
00:49:21,300 --> 00:49:25,900
because we're not invested in 
pushing it hard. 

856
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:28,900
We're invested in working with 
people and getting results. 

857
00:49:29,500 --> 00:49:33,200
I hear some good takeaways game 
Thinking Embraces, what you 

858
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,800
already know and it pulls the 
best out and fills in the 

859
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,100
problems and the things that are
missing. 

860
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:43,100
So if you're already familiar 
with design thinking lean agile 

861
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:48,700
jobs to be done, personas 
scenarios, you don't have to 

862
00:49:48,700 --> 00:49:51,900
give any of that up, you can 
embrace it and then you can 

863
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:55,900
level up your practice and 
that's really the right way to 

864
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:58,600
think about game thinking. 
It's very modular. 

865
00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,700
It's very System like it's not 
Orthodoxy but it's powerful 

866
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:07,800
time-saving tools. 
I'd also say the more you care 

867
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:11,700
about retention and engagement, 
the more relevant this is you 

868
00:50:11,700 --> 00:50:15,700
don't need to build a prototype 
or do detailed designs to figure

869
00:50:15,700 --> 00:50:19,900
out a lot of what works and what
doesn't you're a founder and you

870
00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:24,900
want to make the most of your 
run rate, this is cold, this 

871
00:50:24,900 --> 00:50:28,100
will give you in three months. 
What would take you at least a 

872
00:50:28,107 --> 00:50:30,100
year? 
And that's What I hear again and

873
00:50:30,100 --> 00:50:31,900
again, from Founders, I work 
with. 

874
00:50:32,000 --> 00:50:36,900
So the earlier you adopt these 
techniques the more time and 

875
00:50:36,900 --> 00:50:39,400
money, you'll save and it's not 
easy. 

876
00:50:39,400 --> 00:50:41,900
It requires a lot of discipline.
What? 

877
00:50:41,900 --> 00:50:45,000
I need to apply game Thinking to
my own projects, I need somebody

878
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:48,400
else to like guide me and be my 
product manager because it's 

879
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:50,200
really hard. 
It really is like, walking over 

880
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:57,400
hot coals but the results it 
dramatically accelerates your 

881
00:50:57,400 --> 00:51:02,900
ability to To find success and 
to build something people want. 

882
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:08,000
And if that's the thing you care
about the most Market truth 

883
00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:11,800
building. 
Something people want, this is a

884
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,100
set of techniques that's really 
designed to let you do that, 

885
00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,400
right? 
And not to forget these 

886
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,700
techniques have been used in 
popular games which are 

887
00:51:19,700 --> 00:51:22,000
successful. 
So things like rock band, the 

888
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,900
seams and many other games, 
which actually they use this in 

889
00:51:24,900 --> 00:51:27,600
the industry, but it's just 
specific to games, right? 

890
00:51:27,700 --> 00:51:30,100
No, but it's not. 
Take two games. 

891
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,500
These techniques were used at 
Netflix to help them solve a 

892
00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:36,300
retention problem. 
They were used at eBay to help 

893
00:51:36,300 --> 00:51:38,800
them design their core system 
still in use. 

894
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:43,600
Today, they were used at the New
York Times to help them design, 

895
00:51:43,600 --> 00:51:47,400
their pay wall. 
So it's Way Beyond games, right?

896
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:50,100
Thanks for clarifying, that 
thanks again, Amy for your time.

897
00:51:50,100 --> 00:51:53,300
So unfortunately, due to time, 
we have to wrap up, but I have 

898
00:51:53,300 --> 00:51:56,700
one last question in my show is 
to ask the guests to share, what

899
00:51:56,700 --> 00:51:58,100
I call tree, technical 
leadership. 

900
00:51:58,100 --> 00:52:00,500
Wisdom. 
But You can also think it like a

901
00:52:00,500 --> 00:52:02,100
tree product leadership. 
Wisdom. 

902
00:52:02,100 --> 00:52:04,600
So will there be any advice that
you want to impart for the 

903
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:07,400
listeners here may be taken from
your journey or experience 

904
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:11,400
evening? 
Figure out how to get the 

905
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,300
support. 
You need to fail fast on the way

906
00:52:14,300 --> 00:52:15,700
to being. 
Right. 

907
00:52:16,500 --> 00:52:20,900
That's one it can be hard 
especially if your Junior to 

908
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:26,100
fail in front of other people. 
But see if you can find a way to

909
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:27,800
do that. 
Maybe it's a little under the 

910
00:52:27,808 --> 00:52:31,400
radar and that leads me to my 
second piece of wisdom, which 

911
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:35,500
has to do with relationships. 
Always be on the lookout for 

912
00:52:35,500 --> 00:52:42,100
colleagues, for collaborators, 
for stakeholders in your company

913
00:52:42,100 --> 00:52:46,000
who might have an incentive to 
want to get involved in your 

914
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:51,300
project and support. 
You be very aware of who could 

915
00:52:51,300 --> 00:52:53,100
be an ally always be on the 
lookout. 

916
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,600
For allies, look at the world 
not necessarily as a bunch of 

917
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,900
competition. 
Although of course it often is 

918
00:52:59,900 --> 00:53:03,800
we compete for scarce resources 
but be on the lookout for allies

919
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,600
and collaborators they will 
emerge from unexpected places, 

920
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:11,400
you know, not slimy networking 
but just keep that I'm 

921
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:13,600
interested in people. 
Let's stay in touch. 

922
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,500
Let me know if I can be helpful 
for you energy going, and keep 

923
00:53:17,500 --> 00:53:19,200
your eyes open for 
collaborators. 

924
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:24,300
They will fall in your lap. 
And they will help you and they 

925
00:53:24,300 --> 00:53:28,800
will be excited to help you. 
So keep that in mind as a 

926
00:53:28,800 --> 00:53:32,800
positive thing to be on the 
lookout for and the third thing 

927
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:37,500
is, don't take anything. 
Personally, if somebody dis is 

928
00:53:37,500 --> 00:53:39,700
you online it's more about them 
than you. 

929
00:53:40,200 --> 00:53:44,700
Don't take anything personally, 
give people a lot of grace mean,

930
00:53:44,700 --> 00:53:47,400
don't be an idiot don't be 
fooled twice in three times. 

931
00:53:48,100 --> 00:53:52,900
It's good to be a shrewd judge 
of character but most of Life is

932
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:55,300
not about you. 
So don't take anything 

933
00:53:55,300 --> 00:53:59,000
personally and just hold 
yourself to your own standard. 

934
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:03,200
If you behave with Integrity, 
you will get a reputation for 

935
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:06,900
behaving with integrity and you 
will draw high integrity people 

936
00:54:06,900 --> 00:54:09,200
to you. 
That's part of why I have so 

937
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:12,700
much repeat business. 
Wow, that's really beautiful. 

938
00:54:12,700 --> 00:54:14,800
Thanks for sharing your wisdom, 
so to speak. 

939
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,500
So a meeting for people who want
to connect with you, maybe 

940
00:54:17,500 --> 00:54:19,600
continue this conversation, is 
there a place where they can 

941
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,600
reach out online? 
Absolutely. 

942
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:27,200
Go to game Thinking dot IO, we 
have a contact form that's where

943
00:54:27,200 --> 00:54:30,900
our programs are. 
You can take our free innovators

944
00:54:30,900 --> 00:54:35,200
quiz and get your own MVP 
canvas, one of our Cool Tools. 

945
00:54:35,700 --> 00:54:39,700
You can also find out at game 
Thinking dot IO, how to join, 

946
00:54:39,700 --> 00:54:43,500
our free community, G school 
where I hang out more, you can 

947
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:49,600
DME there, but all of it can be 
easily found in one URL game, 

948
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,400
Thinking dot IO, Right? 
I'll make sure to put that in 

949
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:53,600
the show notes, so, thanks 
again. 

950
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:56,500
Amy, for sharing your game. 
Thinking concept here in this 

951
00:54:56,500 --> 00:54:58,900
episode, I really enjoy and 
learn a lot from you today. 

952
00:54:58,900 --> 00:55:01,100
Thanks again for that my 
pleasure. 

953
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,300
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying, right 

954
00:55:07,300 --> 00:55:09,700
until the end if you highly 
enjoyed it. 

955
00:55:09,900 --> 00:55:12,200
I would appreciate if you share 
it with your friends and 

956
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:15,200
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

957
00:55:15,200 --> 00:55:17,200
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

958
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,200
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

959
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:22,800
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot. 

960
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:24,800
In order to grow this podcast 
better. 

961
00:55:25,300 --> 00:55:28,100
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

962
00:55:28,100 --> 00:55:32,200
the episode page, at Tech Legion
o.f website, including the full 

963
00:55:32,200 --> 00:55:35,600
transcript interesting. 
It's and links to the resources 

964
00:55:35,600 --> 00:55:37,500
mentioned, from the 
conversation. 

965
00:55:37,900 --> 00:55:40,900
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the shows mailing 

966
00:55:40,900 --> 00:55:43,800
list on package. 
You know, dot f to get notified 

967
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,000
for any future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

968
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,400
technology. 
No episode. 

969
00:55:48,700 --> 00:55:50,300
And until then goodbye.