1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:04,560 I define a blind spot as the gap between your intention and your 2 00:00:04,560 --> 00:00:07,320 impact. You find a blind spot by 3 00:00:07,320 --> 00:00:10,680 realizing that your effectiveness is disappearing. 4 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,520 It's eroding. And so that's a sign that it's 5 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,720 like there's a blind spot here. There's something that I'm not 6 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,600 seeing because my impact is not in line with my intention, and 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,720 yet I believe the leaders with the smallest blind spots 8 00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:26,400 actually win, you know? For more successful and drive 9 00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:28,600 more performance. And so the more you can narrow 10 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,119 the gap between intention and impact, the more you're going to 11 00:00:32,119 --> 00:00:33,640 be able to be effective in your role. 12 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:43,880 Hey everyone, my name is Henry Surya Virawan and you're 13 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,480 listening to the Technically Journal Podcast, the show where 14 00:00:47,480 --> 00:00:49,720 I'll be bringing you the greatest technical leaders, 15 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:53,560 practitioners, and thought leaders in the industry to 16 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,760 discuss about their journey, ideas and practices that we all 17 00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,280 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 18 00:01:01,800 --> 00:01:04,000 and to make an impact in your personal work. 19 00:01:04,640 --> 00:01:12,960 So let's dive into our journal. Hello everyone, Welcome back to 20 00:01:12,960 --> 00:01:15,200 another new episode of the Technicianal Podcast. 21 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,520 I have Marissa Murray here. So Amazon Best selling? 22 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Authors, including her latest book Blind Spots. 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,680 So today, we are going to cover a lot about blind spots. 24 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:28,560 I think if you're into personal growth or things like improving 25 00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:32,200 yourself, blind spot is always the most problematic one because 26 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:33,840 sometimes we don't know what we don't know. 27 00:01:34,240 --> 00:01:37,160 And I think this blind spot is something that a leader should 28 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:39,880 be able to overcome in order to grow much better. 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:41,920 So Marissa, thank you so much for your time. 30 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,600 Looking forward for our discussion today. 31 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,640 Yeah. Thank you so much, Henry. 32 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,040 Me too. Right. 33 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,680 Marissa, maybe in the beginning, I'll ask for you to share a 34 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:52,120 little bit about yourself. Maybe if you can mention any 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:54,600 highlights or turning points that we all can learn from. 36 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,000 Yeah, absolutely. So my background originally 37 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,600 began in engineering. I did my engineering undergrad, 38 00:02:01,600 --> 00:02:05,000 worked as an engineer, process engineer for a number of years. 39 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,360 Then I did my MBA and then I joined Anderson Consulting at 40 00:02:08,360 --> 00:02:11,600 the time that became Accenture and I was at Accenture for about 41 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:14,640 15 years, all the way from what they called an experienced 42 00:02:14,640 --> 00:02:16,920 analyst at the time all the way to partner. 43 00:02:16,920 --> 00:02:18,960 And so that was a pretty exciting journey. 44 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,680 And during that time, I worked with a lot of heavy industrial 45 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:26,680 customers and utilities and also I was the client lead for the 46 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,840 aerospace practice. So I had a lot of amazing 47 00:02:28,840 --> 00:02:32,560 aerospace clients. And so, yeah, it was the typical 48 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,560 Accenture career where I got to do a lot of things, a lot of 49 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,360 technical implementations, a lot of transformation and worked 50 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,600 with some amazing clients and I got. 51 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,920 A little bit Rd. Weary, as consultants do after a 52 00:02:44,920 --> 00:02:46,880 while. So after about 15 years, I 53 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:51,080 decided that I would move away to more of a local role and I 54 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:54,800 joined as a Vice President of Bell Canada, which was a telecom 55 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,880 locally. And it was really actually a 56 00:02:57,920 --> 00:03:01,640 difficult shift for me. I missed just this culture, the 57 00:03:01,640 --> 00:03:04,320 feeling the, you know, the consultant energy. 58 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,240 And I found that I had moved into an organization that was 59 00:03:07,240 --> 00:03:10,960 very operationally focused and I was like wired to the client. 60 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,200 So I had a really, I had so many blind spots during this 61 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,800 particular tenure, and I ended up leaving without a plan just 62 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,920 because I was not happy and my husband was daring me to quit 63 00:03:21,920 --> 00:03:24,600 because he was basically saying you're miserable and you should 64 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,000 do something else. And I didn't know what I wanted 65 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,160 to do, you know? And I didn't think that quitting 66 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,760 was an option. But anyway, this is not a best 67 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,680 practice. But I quit without a plan and 68 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,280 went through a lot of reflection around what are the things that 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,960 I really loved, What are the things like? 70 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,360 So I actually interviewed a lot of people too. 71 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,200 I interviewed like former clients and former people that 72 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:48,560 work for me and people on my team and try to sort of figure 73 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:50,880 out like what do I want to bring to the world at this stage. 74 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,680 And I decided and the what resonated a lot was obviously by 75 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,160 clients, interesting, I realized that I wanted to be closer with 76 00:03:57,160 --> 00:03:59,040 clients. Again, I think as you get very 77 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,240 senior in firms, you're more internally focused and when you 78 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:05,880 see clients, sometimes it's just for escalations, you know, it's 79 00:04:05,880 --> 00:04:08,480 not necessarily to kind of do cool work together. 80 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,240 And so that was one kind of heartbeat. 81 00:04:11,240 --> 00:04:14,120 And then the second one was people development. 82 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,160 And I didn't even realize because I was like. 83 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:18,399 As an engineer. And I was kind of like, of 84 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:20,839 course you get good at consulting and forming teams 85 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,360 together or even like in technology implementations, 86 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:24,520 right? You got to pull teams together 87 00:04:24,520 --> 00:04:26,920 and you got to do really great work together and then, you 88 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,880 know, you dissolve the team or all this kind of stuff. 89 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,400 And you have to be very conscious of skill development 90 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:34,960 and all these kinds of things. But I didn't really realize how 91 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,360 much of that was sort of my primary skill set. 92 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:38,960 I was always sort of the thing that I. 93 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,160 Found secondary or didn't pay? Attention to or didn't pride 94 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:45,000 myself on right. And when that just kept coming 95 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:48,280 back, I was like, wow, I just, I'm curious about leadership 96 00:04:48,280 --> 00:04:51,320 development in general. I had had opportunities to do 97 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,120 some amazing leadership development. 98 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:55,200 I'd also had some amazing executive coaches. 99 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,400 But I always kind of felt like they didn't understand my world 100 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:01,800 and I was always trying to translate what they were saying 101 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:03,920 into my world. And I was kind of in my own way, 102 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,440 because I was skeptical that they had never sort of done my 103 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,080 job. So I decided to do some 104 00:05:10,080 --> 00:05:12,360 certifications myself. I got my executive coaching 105 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:14,160 certification and all of a sudden this. 106 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:16,360 World opened up to me where I was like, Oh my goodness, like 107 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,440 this is what people have been trying to teach me and tell me 108 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:23,080 and make more valuable. And yet it wasn't able to reach 109 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:25,240 me. And so I just started this 110 00:05:25,280 --> 00:05:28,920 incredible passion unleashed in me to kind of bring these 111 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:34,120 concepts to technically minded people, to people of substance 112 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,320 doers, people that make things in the world. 113 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:39,600 And I include in that I serve a lot of just sort of the 114 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,880 analytical type people, finance people, but also engineering 115 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:47,480 people and a lot of technology type firms. 116 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,360 Because I think there's that combination of like, we got to 117 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:52,960 get the thing done, but we've got to get the thing done 118 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:54,720 through people, so. That's what I've been. 119 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,640 Focused on for the last nine years now, my company's called 120 00:05:57,640 --> 00:05:59,360 leader Lee. And it's called Leader Lee 121 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:01,880 because I believe that the. Highest complement is to be 122 00:06:01,880 --> 00:06:04,600 leader Lee Like I think that is sort of that is the game. 123 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,680 So it really shifted my career kind of shifted. 124 00:06:07,880 --> 00:06:09,960 I got the memo late that people are. 125 00:06:09,960 --> 00:06:11,160 Sort of the most important thing. 126 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:16,160 Hey, thank you for being part of the Techly Journal community. 127 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,760 This show wouldn't be the same without your ears and you are 128 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:24,040 the reason this show exists. If you're loving TLJ and want to 129 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,320 see it keep on growing. Consider becoming a patron at 130 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:31,280 Techly journal dot dev slash patron or buying me a coffee at 131 00:06:31,280 --> 00:06:33,560 Techly journal dot def slash coffee. 132 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:38,200 Every little bit helps field the research, editing, and sleepless 133 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,200 nights that go into making this show the best it can be. 134 00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:44,800 Thanks for being the best listeners any podcast could ask 135 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,880 for. And now let's get back to our 136 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,560 episode. Thank you so much for sharing 137 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:51,920 your story during my research about you as well, right? 138 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:54,680 Reading the book and also watching your Ted talk, you kind 139 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,280 of like open up as well, like some of your past 140 00:06:57,400 --> 00:06:59,800 vulnerabilities, you know, your career struggle and things like 141 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:01,200 that. Always appreciate that kind of 142 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,240 story, which I believe is also one of the strengths for you to 143 00:07:04,240 --> 00:07:07,000 become a coach, right? And I think you also wrote a few 144 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:08,720 books including these blind spots. 145 00:07:08,840 --> 00:07:11,400 Maybe in the 1st place, could you tell us your background? 146 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,760 Like why did you have interest in writing about these blind 147 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:16,800 spots? Yeah, absolutely. 148 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:21,480 Well, the first question is why did I try to write, period? 149 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:28,480 Because writing a book was not even in my realm of ideas, and I 150 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:30,760 started writing my books. I wrote my first book three 151 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:32,200 years after I started my company. 152 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,280 My first book called Worksmart, and that was to try to organize 153 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:37,920 like everything that I was learning an working on my 154 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:39,720 clients with. And I wanted to sort of like 155 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:43,080 nailed down my perspective of one of the key things that 156 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,640 leaders need to get right. So Work Smart was like, it's an 157 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,880 acronym, it's nine areas. And it was like, I just want the 158 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:50,800 formula, like what's the formula? 159 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:55,440 So I started writing really to understand my own perspective on 160 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,160 like, what is this thing in my own words. 161 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:00,120 I mean, there's tons of incredible leadership 162 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,320 development resources around. But in my own words, like what 163 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:05,800 is core. And I realized through the 164 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,920 process of writing that it forces you to really sharpen 165 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,040 your thinking. Like, what do you really think? 166 00:08:11,480 --> 00:08:14,280 And so I do it mostly for my learning. 167 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,720 So my second book is called Iterate, and it's about this. 168 00:08:16,720 --> 00:08:19,840 It's really a longer version of my Ted talk because my Ted talk, 169 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,160 I had 14 minutes. I was like. 170 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,280 That wasn't long enough to explain what I want to say. 171 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:28,360 And it's about this idea of being much more agile in your 172 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:30,560 leadership styles. I invented a word called 173 00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:34,000 interactive, which is like not being reactive or proactive, but 174 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,120 being interactive, which is this idea of iterating your way. 175 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,000 Because we live in a fast changing world. 176 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,640 And I think that the reality is we just have to, we most often 177 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,280 can't be proactive. And unfortunately, if we only 178 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,120 think we can be reactive, then we have a really tough life. 179 00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,120 Like it's just a really, really hard thing. 180 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,520 So how do you get comfortable with that, that modulation? 181 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:56,400 And then, you know, I promised my husband I would never write 182 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,120 another book. And my children, because they 183 00:08:58,120 --> 00:09:00,600 were kind of like when you write a book, you're like obsessed. 184 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:02,680 But three years later, just this. 185 00:09:02,680 --> 00:09:06,320 Like starting about, well, 18 months ago, or two years, I 186 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,200 guess when I first started to conceive of it, I just again 187 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,560 started to notice these patterns and I wanted. 188 00:09:11,560 --> 00:09:14,320 To figure this. Pattern out and the pattern this 189 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:16,240 time was. What are the? 190 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,000 Breakthroughs that come from blind spots with the leaders 191 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,280 I've been working with. And what are the categories of 192 00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:25,400 blind spots that just seem to be coming back? 193 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:28,160 I have the great fortune of working with a bunch of leaders 194 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,560 simultaneously. So it kind of gives me this 195 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,640 really interesting lens on how is this world challenging 196 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:37,360 leaders and how is this environment challenging leaders 197 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,960 and what are the kinds of things that leaders are facing and 198 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:42,120 overcoming. And sort of. 199 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:46,200 So I wanted to tell stories. This one is really it's 21 200 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:49,000 client stories, Hero's Journeys stories. 201 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,720 Of how they identified blind spots. 202 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:54,680 And really it led to a significant breakthrough for 203 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:56,840 them. And it's my attempt to kind of 204 00:09:56,840 --> 00:09:59,200 organize because I think blind spot we all understand. 205 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,400 It's like the thing you don't know, you don't know and we 206 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,840 understand conceptually. But I was like, what does this 207 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:05,640 really mean? And what does it look like in 208 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:08,280 real life when you actually find one and work through it? 209 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:11,720 Yeah, so maybe let's start with the definition of the blind spot 210 00:10:11,720 --> 00:10:13,080 itself. I think when I read your 211 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,040 definition in your book, I think that really clicks and very 212 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,240 insightful. Maybe if you can define what is 213 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:22,480 blind spot for all of us. Yeah, I define a blind spot as 214 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:25,960 the gap between your intention and your impact. 215 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:29,040 And I use an analogy of like black holes. 216 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:32,400 They find black holes not by finding a black hole. 217 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,680 They find a black hole by finding matter disappearing, 218 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,920 right? And blind spots are a little bit 219 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:40,000 like that. You find a blind spot by 220 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:42,000 realizing that your effectiveness. 221 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,240 Is disappearing. It's eroding. 222 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,920 It's like it's not there. It's almost like, you know, the 223 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:51,600 intention, the powerful passion and intellect and vision. 224 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,600 You've got like all of this, like power. 225 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,080 And then it lands in other people and in the world in a way 226 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,800 that's just diminished or misinterpreted or. 227 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:05,640 It just in a totally different angle and direction. 228 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:08,760 And so that's a sign that it's like there's a blind spot here. 229 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,640 There's something that I'm not seeing because my impact is not 230 00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:15,000 in line with my intention. And I feel like when we define 231 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,320 it, or when we think about it that way, what's powerful about 232 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,880 that is we realize it's kind of normal. 233 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:22,640 It's kind of normal that our impact is not going to be 234 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,000 completely aligned with our intention, right. 235 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:28,640 And so I think you can kind of normalize and sort of it's to be 236 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:31,920 expected and yet I. Believe the leaders with the 237 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:35,920 smallest blind spots, actually. Win, you know, are more 238 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,080 successful and drive more performance because it's almost 239 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,200 like an engine that you're revving really high and just not 240 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,160 getting them forward movement with right and so the more you 241 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:47,600 can narrow the gap. Between intention and impact, 242 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,680 the more you're going to be able to be effective in your role. 243 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,240 Yeah, I really love it, The gap between intention and impact. 244 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,720 So I think that's really a great definition and one of the common 245 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,760 thing that I see in the industry, like not many 246 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,280 companies actually consciously, you know, focus on figuring out 247 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,120 blind spots either for individuals, for leaders or even 248 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,200 for the organization itself. Maybe. 249 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,920 Could you tell us a little bit about, like why companies 250 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:13,880 doesn't seem to consciously focus on this? 251 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,000 Maybe they're focusing more on, you know, improving skill set or 252 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:19,760 maybe doing some process management and things like that. 253 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,480 So maybe from your experience, why probably this blind spot is 254 00:12:23,480 --> 00:12:27,640 like really a blind spot, right? Yeah, absolutely. 255 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:32,360 Well, I think we are all really very focused on our intention. 256 00:12:32,720 --> 00:12:37,240 We get so excited and we have so much clarity in our own minds 257 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:38,960 and so. We. 258 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Keep doubling down on what we have. 259 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,440 We have hypothesis that if we do more things then somehow that 260 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,760 intention is going to come to life even more and we're not 261 00:12:50,760 --> 00:12:54,320 curious about sort of that impact thing. 262 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:58,120 And impact is interesting. When I collect feedback, I like 263 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:02,080 talking about it and thinking about it as impact and you can 264 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:03,560 do this on the customer side too. 265 00:13:03,560 --> 00:13:06,600 Like if you think about we want customer feedback, well we kind 266 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:08,240 of do, but we kind of don't, right? 267 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,600 Or even like, you know, development feedback, we kind of 268 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,080 want it, but we kind of don't, right? 269 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:16,040 Because when we get feedback and we feel like it's not in line 270 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,680 with our intention, then somehow we start to feel like we've done 271 00:13:19,680 --> 00:13:23,040 something wrong or something's wrong or it's frustrating. 272 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,160 Or other people are frustrating. Like especially if the feedback 273 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,000 of the customer is so far from the intention of the brand, then 274 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:32,400 you're just, you're mad at the execution and all these kinds of 275 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,560 things. And so I think depersonalizing 276 00:13:35,560 --> 00:13:37,720 feedback is one of the most important things you can do and 277 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,040 realize that it actually isn't personal. 278 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:42,040 It's not a judgement of your intention. 279 00:13:42,320 --> 00:13:45,280 It's personal to the other person in terms of the impact 280 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,400 that they receive. And it goes through the filter 281 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:50,640 of a brain and a filter of an experience and a filter of all 282 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:53,720 those kind of things. So I think that companies are 283 00:13:53,720 --> 00:13:57,320 fairly good at looking at results, which is an impact. 284 00:13:57,640 --> 00:14:00,600 But I think there's also different types of, there's like 285 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:04,080 the subtleties around impact that we could be more curious 286 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,200 about. And I think when you are more 287 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,800 curious about them and you realize that they are just the 288 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:13,480 impact, you'll start to find creative ways to because between 289 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,000 your intention, I would sort of draw a glass with my hands. 290 00:14:16,000 --> 00:14:18,640 But between your intention and your impact, if you think about 291 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:22,520 an angle in between, if you imagine an angle, what changes 292 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:25,880 that angle to narrow the gap between intention and impact are 293 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:30,080 small deliberate actions. They're small deliberate actions 294 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:33,800 in all the clients stories in my book, they are such small 295 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,480 things. It's just this new awareness 296 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:40,320 around how your leadership in this case is impacting people 297 00:14:40,480 --> 00:14:44,240 that makes you tweak your actions, and it can be true at 298 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,920 the company level, at the team level and at the individual 299 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,480 level. Yeah. 300 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,880 So I think the key here is not like figuring out the big things 301 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,200 that we can do to uncover all the blind spots, but it's a 302 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,880 small little things that we can do, right. 303 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,280 And I think when you mention about we all maybe focus a lot 304 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,320 more on intention, right, Probably it's also something 305 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:05,120 related to our strengths. So in your book you say that a 306 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,520 lot of blind spots actually is kind of like an effect of us 307 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:10,080 focusing too much on our strengths. 308 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,280 So maybe elaborate a little bit more on this. 309 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,680 Yeah, absolutely. We found this, you know, and I 310 00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:18,400 think people intuitively know this a lot of times there's like 311 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,320 our strengths. There's like a shadow side to 312 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:23,360 our strengths where the strength is over exhibited. 313 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,640 I think people are kind of aware and this is a similar idea, 314 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,200 although I think that it's a little nuanced in that I think 315 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,040 you're blind spots often hide in your strengths. 316 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:36,440 So you know it's not that the strength is being over 317 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:39,280 exhibited, it's you're exhibiting the strength really 318 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,640 beautifully. But the byproduct of you 319 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,920 exhibiting that strength really beautifully is that you're not 320 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:47,280 as attuned to the impact that you're having. 321 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:49,760 You know when people are just doing their thing and it's 322 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:52,800 beautiful to watch. I feel like sometimes the 323 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,200 spotlight on the impact on different people and also on 324 00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,560 maybe smaller groups of people, right? 325 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:03,400 Like be it's maybe 80% of the people just love your leadership 326 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,680 style and eat it up for breakfast, right? 327 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:07,600 But then you have these groups of people. 328 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,000 Like I remember from my experience, sometimes I would 329 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:13,240 have some deeply technical people that I needed to keep and 330 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:17,360 I needed to engage, but kind of secretly drove me crazy and 331 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:21,280 didn't really buy into my way of thinking and all those kinds of 332 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,200 things. And as a leader, I had to figure 333 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,760 out a way to understand what is the impact of my style on that 334 00:16:26,760 --> 00:16:30,800 group of people and how do I nuance my style for that. 335 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,560 So I think sometimes we don't get the feedback on those things 336 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:35,240 because people don't want to wreck us, right? 337 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:36,680 They don't want to wreck the strength. 338 00:16:36,680 --> 00:16:38,800 They're like, you know, they're afraid that they're going to 339 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:41,280 wreck the strength. And what I've discovered is that 340 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,280 if you're just sort of a little logical about like, OK, I'm 341 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,280 really, really good. I'll just give you an example of 342 00:16:47,440 --> 00:16:50,200 David the Difference maker. David, the difference maker, is 343 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:54,920 one of my unbelievably amazing talented clients who runs. 344 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,360 As a partner at a large technology company that sells a 345 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,600 lot of. Works amazing Sales guy creates 346 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,920 kind intimacy, builds unbelievably strong teams. 347 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:06,839 And he's the difference maker, right? 348 00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:08,599 He's the difference maker in a deal. 349 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,800 So meaning that like if he's on the deal, the deal sells, right? 350 00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,520 If he's on the deal, the deal goes well. 351 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,599 And so it is his strength. And people say, like, yeah, he 352 00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,400 makes a difference. He's a difference maker. 353 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,680 Now the challenge that happened is that he became such the 354 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,240 difference maker that he had to be everywhere and it was only 355 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:26,760 him. And if he wasn't him and he was 356 00:17:26,760 --> 00:17:30,440 spreading himself too thin and he was getting really grumpy and 357 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,160 he was dropping balls because he kind of over extended himself. 358 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,560 And so he's not becoming the difference maker. 359 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:40,640 Sometimes because of just the sheer volume and the small tweak 360 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,480 when I collected a bunch of impact statements, people wanted 361 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,920 more of his time helping them develop. 362 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,920 People wanted him to make them difference makers. 363 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:52,640 His team wanted to elevate. And so he was all of a sudden 364 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,240 like, oh, OK, now I have to be the difference maker for my 365 00:17:56,240 --> 00:18:00,120 people, which will then be the difference maker for the 366 00:18:00,120 --> 00:18:01,280 enterprise. Right. 367 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,400 And so it's the strength that nobody wanted to get rid of. 368 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:06,080 Like, they're like, you know, they didn't want to get rid of 369 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,080 this difference maker. But, you know, now they're able 370 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,040 to scale. And he's way happier. 371 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,480 And he's growing like, you know, and all those kinds of things. 372 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,720 And so I think sometimes people are afraid of wrecking what's 373 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:20,080 great, but I think sometimes just an ever so slightly the 374 00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:22,560 mind is very interesting. You know, I always think of it 375 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,920 as a heat seeking missile, like it's just trying to do exactly 376 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,880 what you've programmed it to do. And it's trying to do that every 377 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,760 day as efficiently as it can for you. 378 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,960 And as soon as you give it a slightly different coordinate, 379 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:39,720 like just point O2 different coordinate, it narrows in on 380 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:43,160 that unbelievably and change can happen very very quickly and 381 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,400 quite effortlessly. Yeah. 382 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,920 So I think the interesting thing here is to figure out the 383 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:51,080 angles, right, the different angles that you, your mind is 384 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,280 moving towards, right? And you mentioned a few key 385 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:55,080 things which you mentioned in your book as well. 386 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:56,560 The 1st is about impact statement. 387 00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:58,800 Earlier you mentioned about getting feedback as well. 388 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:01,280 I think maybe one of the challenge, especially when you 389 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,320 go higher up in the leadership management right leaders may get 390 00:19:05,360 --> 00:19:07,760 little feedback. As higher you go, most likely 391 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,120 you get little feedback. So tell us how maybe great 392 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:14,440 leaders can actually overcome their blind spots by collecting 393 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,680 more feedback or impact statement in this case. 394 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,520 Yeah, yeah, I know this is the tragedy of leadership, right? 395 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:23,880 You know that you need more and more. 396 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,800 The game becomes more and more complicated and somehow in that 397 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,760 you get less and less data and that's really difficult. 398 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:35,240 And I mean personal data on sort of on your style, your impact. 399 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,760 And I think part of the reason why coaching in particular has 400 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:43,920 grown so much is because of that sort of lonely vacuum that can 401 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,440 happen around leaders where they don't necessarily have safe 402 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:50,160 spaces to really discuss everything. 403 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:53,520 They think to have all that kind of stuff and also a way to 404 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:56,360 really get the concrete feedback that they need. 405 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,360 And I always explain this to clients when you have these very 406 00:20:00,360 --> 00:20:02,400 senior roles it creates. I mean, I saw it. 407 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:03,720 I felt it. When I made partner. 408 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,920 All of a sudden, what I said got repeated before that, nobody 409 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,080 repeated anything I said, right. And then all of a sudden, I made 410 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:12,720 partner and people were repeating what I was saying. 411 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:15,680 And I was like, wow, I didn't even really mean to say what I 412 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,360 said, right. So you have to sort of pay more 413 00:20:17,360 --> 00:20:21,400 attention as a leader because your voice just becomes louder 414 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:23,320 because of the title and the role. 415 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,240 And a lot of leaders underestimate. 416 00:20:25,440 --> 00:20:27,080 Because they just feel like the same person. 417 00:20:27,080 --> 00:20:29,480 They're just like, I'm a human. I'm flawed just like anybody 418 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:30,960 else. They feel like the same person, 419 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:34,120 but they're not really received as the same person. 420 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:39,680 And so ultimately what I find is with my clients, I often go as 421 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,080 the investigator for them. So I would love it if we could 422 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:47,160 make everyone brave enough to be able to share feedback really 423 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:50,920 directly. I also think that three 60s and 424 00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,360 digital surveys and all those kind of stuff have marginal. 425 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,360 Value. It's very hard to decipher what 426 00:20:58,360 --> 00:21:00,480 is worth. Like people are being careful 427 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,560 about how they write it, so they're not identified. 428 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:04,760 And you know, there's just sort of like a lot of stuff to behind 429 00:21:04,760 --> 00:21:06,680 that. And So what I do. 430 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,800 Is I literally do interviews. I do interviews with the key 431 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,080 people that are critical to their success and I capture 432 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,440 themes and I playback themes and we dissect those themes. 433 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,360 And that's why most of my clients in this book are clients 434 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:23,640 that I worked with where it began with a 360 feedback, with 435 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,680 collection of impact statements, first person impact statements 436 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,480 where I'm literally probing for them because I'm asking 437 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,320 questions that's hard for you to ask, like, well, how does their 438 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,920 impact vision impact you? Or how does the vision impact 439 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:37,240 you? Or do you have the kind of 440 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:38,360 clarity and direction that you need? 441 00:21:38,360 --> 00:21:41,120 Or what could they do more indifferently to just enhance 442 00:21:41,120 --> 00:21:43,360 the quality of your relationship, even just your 443 00:21:43,360 --> 00:21:45,480 relationship? And what's their impact on the 444 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:48,160 team collaboration? I just keep asking questions and 445 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,600 collecting themes. And then when we bring the 446 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:53,040 themes, and then I typically work with them in a coaching 447 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:56,720 period where we're experimenting because now you have the themes, 448 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,560 but then it's like, OK, but what's the little magic tweak in 449 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,880 your leadership style that's going to have the exponential 450 00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,840 impact? And that takes time. 451 00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:07,080 That takes time to think about 1:00 and then experiment and 452 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:09,480 think of like a daily meeting that you're going to sort of be 453 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:12,360 different in and then get feedback again and all that kind 454 00:22:12,360 --> 00:22:14,040 of stuff. So, you know, it's a little bit 455 00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:17,080 of an effort, but I do think that at the top, you have to 456 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,040 always imagine at the top, every little millimeter you move or 457 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,040 inch you move, you're basically impacting the levers. 458 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,040 You have such a large lever on the organization and the people. 459 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:30,360 Really interesting technique. I wish like many leaders would 460 00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:32,600 have this opportunity to actually have someone 461 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,400 investigate their impact statements with their people. 462 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,360 You know the key stakeholders. So I think no matter what, 463 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:40,840 everyone will have their blind spots right? 464 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,480 Maybe some strong leaders will think they have little blind 465 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,520 spots, but that may not be true, right? 466 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:49,000 So maybe the great leaders also have to think about what blind 467 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,640 spots that really they do not aware of. 468 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,080 And maybe these impact statements that you collect from 469 00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,480 stakeholders will be one of the greatest inputs for you to 470 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,440 figure out and most likely create a breakthrough, right, 471 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,960 because you mentioned by moving past your blind spots, you can 472 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,680 actually create a change and a breakthrough through yourself. 473 00:23:07,120 --> 00:23:10,080 So let's go maybe to the seven blind spots that you mentioned, 474 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,920 maybe a little bit of overview what are those blind spots and 475 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:14,720 maybe we'll dive deep into some of them. 476 00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,480 Sure, absolutely, absolutely. So the first one is called false 477 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,280 assumptions, which is a pretty accessible language. 478 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,040 I mean, it's obvious that we have false assumptions. 479 00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:27,640 And false assumptions are, you know, we are operating on a 480 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,920 belief or on a thought that turns out to not be true. 481 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,800 And as an example, I talked about David, the difference 482 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:36,000 maker. He's an example of where he was 483 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,440 running on a thought that being the difference maker meant he 484 00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:40,480 had to be the one that made the difference. 485 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,920 And that's a false assumption. The truth was he could be the 486 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,080 difference maker by empowering his people more. 487 00:23:45,080 --> 00:23:47,320 And so that's an example of a false assumption that was just 488 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,800 kind of running the way. The second one in the book that 489 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,720 I highlight is called unhealthy detachment. 490 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:57,880 Unhealthy detachment is when you are aware of something that's 491 00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,080 important to others, but you don't really care. 492 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,360 You have an unhealthy detachment to something that is important 493 00:24:06,360 --> 00:24:09,840 to others and that thing because you're like, yeah, yeah, they 494 00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:11,920 want that, but it doesn't really matter. 495 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,560 Or they feel that way or that's their culture, but it doesn't 496 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:17,440 really matter. And what happens with that is 497 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,400 you're going to have some really significant blind spots around 498 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,800 things that will come to bite you in the future. 499 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,120 I mean, there is only one story in the book that does not have a 500 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,440 happy ending, and that is in unhealthy detachment. 501 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:33,920 And in this particular case is a very talented CEO who was 502 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,440 getting speed back from the board. 503 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:40,200 And in my impact statements, I collected very specific feedback 504 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:43,600 from the board around things they were attached to that they 505 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,840 wanted this person to do and that this person just felt was 506 00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:49,480 less important that they were going to get there a different 507 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,920 way. And ultimately, they ignored 508 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:56,160 that noise, that little noise, for so long that there was, you 509 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:58,560 know, the board replaced them, didn't want to deal with it 510 00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:01,240 anymore. And so that's the one sad story. 511 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,640 There's also a ton of, you know, amazing stories where people 512 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,400 just noticed that, like, I'll just give you an example of one 513 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,200 leader who his unhealthy detachment was. 514 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,880 He always wanted to really protect people and make sure 515 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,960 that they weren't overstretched. He was, like, really kind to his 516 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,520 people. And his people wanted more 517 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:25,120 visibility and exposure. And he kept saying, you don't 518 00:25:25,120 --> 00:25:27,480 really want that. You think you don't want that, 519 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,080 right? But as soon as you get in, as 520 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,400 soon as you start taking on these things, they're going to 521 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:33,280 get in your kitchen. You know, like, he sort of had 522 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,080 this bias. And he kept ignoring that his 523 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,440 people wanted to have more visibility, more stretch 524 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:41,920 assignments, more engagement, to the point where he was running 525 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,320 up a very high attrition rate. And people were like, I loved 526 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:49,480 it, but I couldn't grow, right. And so he was aware of that. 527 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,080 But he had a really unhealthy detachment to what his people 528 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,320 wanted from him because he was from coming from a good place. 529 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,120 His strength was that he built an incredible team around him 530 00:25:59,120 --> 00:26:01,000 that knew that he really cared for them. 531 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:04,120 So there's another example. Different views of success is 532 00:26:04,120 --> 00:26:06,160 the third blind spot I talked about in the review. 533 00:26:06,360 --> 00:26:10,200 And that is where, like your version of success is different, 534 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:13,160 significantly different enough than other important 535 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,680 stakeholders. And that can show up in a 536 00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:18,560 leadership style like your view of success is. 537 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:23,280 I used to actually with my coach when I was debriefing some 360 538 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:26,720 feedback that I had received. I realized that my view of a 539 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,080 success of a good meeting was completely out of line with the 540 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:32,320 view of success of a good meeting of my team. 541 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,960 So my view of success of good meeting is we get in there, we. 542 00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,240 Cover it fast. And we're out of there, you 543 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:39,960 know, And we handle issues and we're out of there. 544 00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:41,160 Like, that was my idea of a good meeting. 545 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,120 And my team was finding me unapproachable, rushed, 546 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:50,240 impatient, impersonal. And their view of a good meeting 547 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:51,760 was like, we're together as a team. 548 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,800 Can we say hi to each other? Like, can we like, you know, And 549 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:57,800 I was like, oh, my goodness, like the views, the success of 550 00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,400 my team. But it's simple. 551 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Meeting versus my view of success was out of line. 552 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,800 And I just had to add tiny, tiny, tiny things to honor that. 553 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,840 I'd heard that people hated my meetings. 554 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:11,800 Like, that's a horrible thing as a leader to say. 555 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,480 Like, they hate your meeting. So different views of success in 556 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,040 big and small ways. I also talk about outdated core 557 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:19,560 beliefs. That's where we've just been 558 00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,680 running a belief. And you know, we think it's 559 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,800 normal and it ultimately bites us in some ways. 560 00:27:27,120 --> 00:27:31,000 One of the examples in the book is Erica, whose military 561 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,520 background has certain ideas about how hierarchies should 562 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:37,120 work, how staff should work, you know, And so that's a core 563 00:27:37,120 --> 00:27:40,200 belief, but it's outdated because we're no longer in the 564 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,480 military and now we're working with different types of 565 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:44,720 stakeholders, right. And so it's just kind of those 566 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:50,520 can be blind spots, unconscious habits is #5, which is again, 567 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,120 like the things you do that you don't know annoy people and they 568 00:27:54,120 --> 00:27:57,000 can be small or little. I mean, one of the examples that 569 00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,440 Tessa the teacher is what we nicknamed her, She was an 570 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,360 incredible CFO, incredible like finance leader. 571 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:06,000 But she would talk about operations and try to teach 572 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,520 operations about operations. She would get out. 573 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,040 She always wanted to add value. So she had this unconscious 574 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,800 habit of always weighing in on everybody else's instead of 575 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:16,800 letting them speak. And so that was just an 576 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,560 unconscious habit that she had to stop because it was eroding. 577 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,960 The quality of her relationships and triggers from past pain is 578 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,160 number six. And that's where we really, our 579 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,000 brain remembers us making a mistake in the past that it does 580 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:34,120 not want to repeat. And so we don't go places, You 581 00:28:34,120 --> 00:28:36,240 know, feedback isn't a good example of that. 582 00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,840 Like we don't dig on feedback because feedback hurt before, so 583 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,760 we create blind spots for ourselves because we are trying 584 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,520 to avoid. We have triggers from past pain 585 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:47,960 and the trick with that is to deactivate the trigger to be 586 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:49,600 like I'm not that person anymore. 587 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,240 We need to kind of walk courageously through our current 588 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:56,320 environment and finally mismatched mindsets, which is a 589 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,600 really interesting one because I think we all know as leaders 590 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:03,400 that our mindset matters and our mindset shifts over our career. 591 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:06,400 Our mindset begins as much more of an individual performer. 592 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,520 Our mindset then moves too much more of a team player. 593 00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,960 Our mindset moves again to be a leader of a team. 594 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 And then our mindset needs to shift again as we're starting to 595 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,720 lead, change or lead the enterprise where we're having to 596 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,360 be much more future focused and much more long term and all 597 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,480 those kinds of things. So there's all these shifts 598 00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,040 associated with these mindsets, and unless we tell our brain we 599 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,600 need a new mindset, like, it doesn't know, right? 600 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:32,960 It doesn't know. It doesn't know that we're like, 601 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,080 OK, now the game has changed, so blind spots are created. 602 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,760 When we're operating in a mindset that's incongruent. 603 00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,520 With the role that we're in, that was a. 604 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,280 Lot. I hope that was OK, Henry. 605 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:46,560 Yeah, I mean, completely fine, actually. 606 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,160 So when I listen to your, you know, elaboration of all these 607 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,800 blind spots, I kind of like laugh a little bit because I 608 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:54,640 most likely have almost all of them. 609 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:58,080 I think all of us have some variations of all of them, 610 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,960 right. So I think our job as a leader 611 00:29:59,960 --> 00:30:03,040 is to actually really recognize I think one thing before maybe 612 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,440 we go into some of them you mentioned about bias and bias is 613 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,280 also covered a lot. What's the difference between 614 00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:12,360 bias and actually blind spots? Are they the same or are they 615 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,560 kind of different? Oh, that's a very interesting 616 00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:19,080 question. I think a bias plays into a lot 617 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,920 of the different blind spots. I think of bias as just and 618 00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:24,680 again, like I kind of a technical mind. 619 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,600 So I always think about my brain as basically a computer program 620 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:32,440 and I think of bias as just code that was in there and that was 621 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,080 maybe not fully scrutinized in terms of all the different ways 622 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,920 in which that code would get called upon and executed and the 623 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:45,400 impact that it would have. And so I do think that biases do 624 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,400 can play into it and do play into it. 625 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,320 But I think that some of the blind spots, let me just think 626 00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:53,200 through that a little bit. Like I don't think a false 627 00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,200 assumption is always a bias. It might be actually something 628 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:01,360 that was like actually developed through concrete data. 629 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:06,720 And you know, biases often times are unbalanced in terms of their 630 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,960 point of view. A false assumption could have 631 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,560 been very, very right at some point. 632 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,520 And that's I think what's kind of hard. 633 00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:17,560 And So what happens is over time it's like maybe new information 634 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,240 is not being updated in the code, in the bias code, and the 635 00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:23,600 context has changed. So it's an interesting 636 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,200 reflection. I'll do more reflection on it as 637 00:31:26,240 --> 00:31:27,440 well. Right. 638 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:30,760 Thanks for your explanation. So maybe, yeah, let's touch on a 639 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:32,720 little bit on some of those blind spots. 640 00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,920 Maybe for some of us, we want to learn after identifying the 641 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,160 blind spot, maybe we want to learn how can we actually 642 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:40,320 change? How can we actually avoid having 643 00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,280 that blind spot? Let's start with the false 644 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,440 assumption, right, because I believe almost everyone would 645 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,000 make a false assumption. So for example, in technical 646 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,960 engineering, things that have worked in the past, right? 647 00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,800 Most likely they will use that as kind of like examples that it 648 00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,960 will work again for a new situation. 649 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,680 So how can we actually avoid these kind of false assumptions 650 00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,200 that we have? Yeah, well, the trick with all 651 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:08,200 false assumptions is to actually identify your assumptions. 652 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,000 And we don't identify our assumptions very well, right. 653 00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,920 And it's not possible. I mean, we might try to document 654 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,120 all of our assumptions, right? It's it would be an enormous 655 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,600 effort. But it is an interesting thing 656 00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:25,800 if you develop the habit within your team to think about what 657 00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:30,240 assumption is leading to this. Like what ideas are leading to 658 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:33,440 this decision or what ideas are leading to this position. 659 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,400 And what you'll find if you keep asking that question. 660 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,600 Somebody says, like we have to do it, you know exactly this 661 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:42,480 way, right? The only way we can do this is a 662 00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:44,840 waterfall approach. The only way we can implement 663 00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:47,360 this software is with a waterfall approach, right? 664 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:50,760 And then asking the question, OK, what are the ideas that 665 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:52,320 support that assumption? You know what. 666 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:56,800 And if you start to ask yourself, like, well, there's 667 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,600 this project for like, the people will have data, but they 668 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,480 won't actually know what they're sourcing, right? 669 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,360 It's almost like you have to imagine the mind is like an 670 00:33:05,360 --> 00:33:08,920 automatic librarian, and it's telling you the answer. 671 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,080 It's like, here's the book you need, and yet you haven't 672 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,560 checked its sources. It's just gone back and found a 673 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:17,360 bunch of stuff and handed you the book. 674 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,400 And so by asking the question, OK, So what are the ideas or 675 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,600 projects that are leading you to that conclusion? 676 00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:27,640 And it's a different question than why do you think that? 677 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,920 Because why do you think that is going to give you a bunch of 678 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:33,280 reasons for the assumption. And the reasons for the 679 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,400 assumption are less interesting because they're probably sound 680 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,680 quite logical. But when you ask what are the 681 00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:42,320 experiences or projects or what's the history behind that, 682 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,320 what you uncover is how much sometimes those things are 683 00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,520 actually irrelevant. Now, maybe we had a hardware 684 00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,840 issue at that time, or maybe we had this issue at that time, or 685 00:33:51,840 --> 00:33:54,960 maybe we had all kinds of other constraints that existed at that 686 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,400 time. And it's only by revealing the 687 00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:01,240 sources that you can actually take a look and say, OK, well, 688 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,440 wait a second, like all a bunch of the reasons are actually no 689 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,080 longer relevant. And So what I try to get people 690 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:11,280 to do is to try when they're really feeling like this is the 691 00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:14,159 way or there's debate about a certain way. 692 00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,400 Rather than talking about whys and reasons and rationales. 693 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:24,040 We talk about source examples and then we look at those and we 694 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,120 say, OK, well which of the projects actually the best is? 695 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:28,920 Then you add, look for counter examples. 696 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,840 Where was that not true? Where did we do this? 697 00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:34,520 And it wasn't true. And it was great because that's 698 00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,080 even more powerful. Finding recipes that worked in 699 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,000 the past. Our brain always kicks up the 700 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:44,120 ones that were hard, but finding ones that were easy is also very 701 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:46,400 insightful. And then that's how you kind of 702 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:47,760 unpack. OK, wait a second. 703 00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:49,880 Here's why I have this assumption. 704 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:53,440 And what are the parameters in that context that are false? 705 00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:57,800 And now what becomes possible to refresh as a new assumption? 706 00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,040 Very interesting, right? To avoid false assumption, you 707 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,840 need to define your assumption. So this is also something I 708 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,240 learned recently, right? Probably we are always in the 709 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:09,120 problem solving mode, but maybe it's best for us to actually 710 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,360 first problem define you know like what is the problem that we 711 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,240 are working towards, right? And I think this assumption is 712 00:35:15,240 --> 00:35:17,800 really, really important because once you make a false 713 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,760 assumption, right, the actions that you take probably is going 714 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,360 to be wrong and the result hence will be totally wrong as well. 715 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,080 So thanks for sharing that how we can shift our blind spot. 716 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:29,880 Second one is about unhealthy detachment. 717 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,760 So you mentioned leaders know that they need to care about 718 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,880 something, but somehow they just probably don't care. 719 00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:36,720 Or maybe they don't. Have. 720 00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,560 Energy to do that. I did that in the past as well. 721 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,280 So I've been guilty as well. So how can leaders have a more 722 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:46,360 healthy attachment probably or maybe healthy detachment? 723 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:48,160 In your book, you actually mentioned four different 724 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:50,280 quadrants, right? Healthy attachment, unhealthy 725 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:52,600 attachment and things like that. So maybe a little bit on this 726 00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,400 part. Yeah, absolutely. 727 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,880 Yeah. It felt unnatural to just talk 728 00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,840 about unhealthy detachment when there's actually four different 729 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:02,960 versions of this, right? There's unhealthy detachment and 730 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,240 there's unhealthy attachment, right? 731 00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:09,920 And then arguably, we want to all be in healthy attachment and 732 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,440 healthy detachment. And all those quadrants are 733 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:14,520 really important. And as leaders, we need to kind 734 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,640 of dance around them sometimes. So, for example, sometimes we 735 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:21,480 have an unhealthy attachment to our opinion or to our way of 736 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:23,280 being and all those kinds of things. 737 00:36:23,720 --> 00:36:27,560 And if we have an unhealthy attachment to our way, then we 738 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,160 close our doors in terms of understanding what our people 739 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,840 need from us. And the real shift as a leader 740 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,320 is that you have to realize that your effectiveness driven by 741 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:42,520 your preferences, right. So your effectiveness is 742 00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:47,160 probably quite leading to your preferences is like a fraction 743 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,080 of what's possible when you're in a leadership role, because 744 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,120 it's not about your individual effectiveness, it's about your 745 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:56,840 effectiveness of the collective. And so if I have an unhealthy 746 00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:01,280 attachment to my way of doing something, and I'm ignoring the 747 00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:05,880 beautiful wisdom of this collective, then I'm probably 748 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:10,480 optimizing my performance at the expense of like 900 people at 749 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,960 some point, right? And so that's where it's like, 750 00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:19,200 OK, so I need to have a healthy detachment to my preferences 751 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,360 because I have to realize that I'm the tip of the spear. 752 00:37:22,720 --> 00:37:26,120 But I'm navigating for everyone. So I have to have a healthy 753 00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:30,520 detachment to my preferences and a healthy attachment to the 754 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:33,080 things that are going to move the needle for all of our 755 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,040 people. And the things that people are 756 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:39,280 saying are really important. And it's not always easy because 757 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,800 we are probably in our unhealthy attachment. 758 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,320 I mean, right now there's all kinds of unhealthy attachment on 759 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,240 both sides around whether we should be in the office or not, 760 00:37:50,240 --> 00:37:52,200 right? There's unhealthy attachment 761 00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:54,720 from the leadership. There's unhealthy attachment 762 00:37:54,720 --> 00:37:57,520 from people in terms of what lifestyles they want. 763 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,080 And so when we're there, you see that there's just a whole lot of 764 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,840 uncertainty that's going on. We're not really looking at the 765 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,640 whole picture. We're living in our own 766 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:13,080 attachments, right? So the important thing here is 767 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:15,240 to realize that we all want to be healthy. 768 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,760 We want to be in healthy attachment or healthy 769 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,160 detachment. And sometimes we have to be in 770 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:23,920 healthy detachment because there's something very important 771 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:25,440 that the organization needs to do. 772 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,320 For instance, we absolutely need to restructure the organization. 773 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,640 And so sometimes we have to have a healthy detachment from the 774 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:32,480 fact that that's going to create a whole lot of pain. 775 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,880 Not full detachment, but a healthy detachment just enough 776 00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:37,440 so that we can execute difficult things. 777 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,120 So as leaders, sometimes we have to have a little bit of 778 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,520 detachment, but sometimes when things continue right. 779 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,080 So you know, you do 1 restructuring, but then you 780 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:49,320 didn't even get it right. And now you have to do another 781 00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:51,800 restructuring and you didn't get it right and you're not getting 782 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,160 it right. So what are you not facing 783 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:55,760 right? What is wrong with the value 784 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:57,400 proposition, the culture of your organization? 785 00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,640 Like what is the perpetual problem? 786 00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,960 And there's often data. It's just that we're not. 787 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:05,000 We have a healthy detachment to the data. 788 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:09,840 So it is figuring out what am I attached to, how do I detach 789 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:11,160 that? I was thinking about like we're 790 00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:12,600 moving along the spectrum, right? 791 00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:15,680 How do I detach enough, have a healthy detachment to what I 792 00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,160 believe so that I open up my listening? 793 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,880 And often times you'll get people that are probably 794 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,840 unhealthily attached to their point of view. 795 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:23,800 But. That's kind of. 796 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:25,360 Fascinating. The only way you're going to 797 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,280 move them is if you bring them into healthy attachment to the 798 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:31,920 pieces of the puzzle that are important and the pieces that 799 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,360 are difficult. So if I could replay for 800 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:40,920 instance, which I cannot do my job at Bell for instance, I know 801 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:44,480 that I had a very unhealthy attachment to client centricity. 802 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,800 I thought that was the only way you could deliver services was 803 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,200 if you bent over and did whatever you had to do for the 804 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,480 client, right. And I had an unhealthy 805 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:57,200 attachment to operational excellence, which is what they 806 00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,000 did. So their whole mindset was we 807 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,520 build incredibly strong operations rigger and we're 808 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,280 really, really strict about it. And because we're so strict 809 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,520 about it, our quality is really good. 810 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:13,640 And so our clients are happy because our quality is 811 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,040 consistent and good. And all I could see was that 812 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:20,880 makes you inflexible, that makes you hard to do business with. 813 00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,400 I couldn't see that. So if I could replay it, I would 814 00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:27,000 have said, OK, the engine and the passion and the drive of 815 00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:31,000 this workforce that I'm now trying to lead is driven around 816 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:34,240 this really important value that's been around for 100 817 00:40:34,240 --> 00:40:37,680 years. I am not going to change that 818 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,120 beautiful value. It is a good value, right? 819 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,360 Values are all by nature good. It's just that it's different 820 00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,840 than mine. And so how do I harness that? 821 00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,160 How do I buy into it? How do I try it on? 822 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,800 How do I put that outfit on and then figure out the result I'm 823 00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,960 trying to achieve? And then how do I take I get 824 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,960 that result through what people are already attached to? 825 00:40:58,960 --> 00:41:02,440 Because if a leader ignores this stuff, it's like you're ignoring 826 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:04,800 fuel. Everyone has fuel for your 827 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,760 engine. And you're basically telling 828 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,960 them, like, I don't want that, we'll just make our own over 829 00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:13,400 here, or you'll only put mine in or I'll only put people in that 830 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:15,480 have this kind of fuel. You know, it's sort of silly. 831 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,640 Thank you for such an elaborate explanation about this 832 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:20,240 attachment and detachment. Right. 833 00:41:20,240 --> 00:41:23,640 So the key insight for me is to shift the so-called the focus 834 00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:27,080 from you yourself, right? The leader you yourself to more 835 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,560 people, right to the team, the collective intelligence of 836 00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,200 everyone so that you can play around between the spectrum of 837 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,560 attachment and detachment. So let's move on to the next 838 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,600 one, which I think for many leaders who are aspiring to be 839 00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,000 great leaders, right, there's always this mismatched mindset. 840 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,600 Because when you step up the leadership ladder, right, you 841 00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:50,280 will always have something that you haven't experienced before 842 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,720 and hence you have to probably change your mindset or learn new 843 00:41:53,720 --> 00:41:56,160 skills, right? So tell us a little bit about 844 00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,000 this. How can we actually avoid 845 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:00,680 mismatched mindsets? Yeah, absolutely. 846 00:42:00,720 --> 00:42:05,720 I think the consciousness or the awareness for mindsets is it's 847 00:42:05,720 --> 00:42:08,960 the process of reflecting. So mindsets, I think about 848 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,440 mindsets as kind of like your operating platform, right, Like 849 00:42:12,440 --> 00:42:16,160 it's like your operating system and what is the orientation of 850 00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,320 that operating system. And with Leader Lee, there's 851 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:20,600 kind of three areas of leadership. 852 00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:23,520 We talked about leading self, leading others and leading 853 00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:26,840 change. And it is a little bit of you're 854 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,960 always doing all three and they're kind of foundational 855 00:42:29,960 --> 00:42:32,360 like if you can't lead yourself, it's hard to lead others and if 856 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:34,880 you can't lead others, you're not going to lead change on any 857 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,440 kind of scale, right. So it is a little bit 858 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,440 incremental, but they're all fundamental. 859 00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,840 And So what I found with when the case states that I describe 860 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,920 in Miss Massmindsets is it's kind of fascinating. 861 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,560 It's not like you just have to be in one, you have to be in one 862 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,760 that's also in mastery of the the others, right. 863 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:58,800 So it's not as simple as saying like, OK, I'm new in my job, so 864 00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,120 all I do is think about myself and I don't build any 865 00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:02,760 relationships and I don't, you know what I mean? 866 00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:06,480 Like, it's not as as simple as that, but it is an orientation 867 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,000 and it is an operating system where it's like, where am I? 868 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:13,360 Where's the dominant thinking of my day and do I have enough 869 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,440 energy reserved for me? So I'll just give you an 870 00:43:15,440 --> 00:43:18,360 example. In the book, I talk about people 871 00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,480 who have mismatched mindsets that maybe are operating the 872 00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,640 right man set example. So there was Chelsea basically, 873 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,640 absolutely in the right mindset around leading change. 874 00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:31,960 Like absolutely in the right mindset about the role, like the 875 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:36,480 role that she was in and how she had to drive change, drive the 876 00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:38,920 business, grow the business, all those kinds of things, right? 877 00:43:39,240 --> 00:43:43,080 But was so obsessed with this that was really depleting 878 00:43:43,080 --> 00:43:46,080 herself, really depleting herself, not taking good care of 879 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:49,760 herself, getting very forceful, getting very aggressive, all 880 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,280 this kind of stuff. So on the one hand, she had the 881 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,840 right mindset around, like her role, But on the other hand, she 882 00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:58,600 had sort of neglected her leading self, like neglected 883 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:02,240 sort of her fundamental pieces. And because she was so focused 884 00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:05,080 on leading change, she was alienating people because she 885 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:08,160 wasn't charismatic and light and, you know, she wasn't a 886 00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:09,920 leader that people. Wanted to follow. 887 00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,080 And she was so focused on winning that it was like taking 888 00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:18,360 away the shared wins that were possible for everybody and sort 889 00:44:18,360 --> 00:44:21,560 of the journey for everybody. And so with mismatch mindsets, 890 00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:25,400 it's this idea of what are the pieces like, how do I keep the 891 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:28,800 whole pie together, what's my orientation with my role? 892 00:44:28,800 --> 00:44:31,840 What's my orientation with my team, and what's my orientation 893 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:34,800 with myself? I think it's a very interesting 894 00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,800 three different areas, right As you go up the career ladder or 895 00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:41,160 leadership ladder always have three aspects, right leading 896 00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,240 yourself, leading others and leading chains. 897 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,280 So the spectrum could change, right, depending on the context. 898 00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:49,000 So probably something very, very insightful for all of us to 899 00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:51,200 learn from. There are plenty more blind 900 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:53,360 spots in the book. So I really encourage people to 901 00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,880 look at the book. So Marissa as he explained as 902 00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:59,560 well, right uses a lot of examples from her client so that 903 00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,560 you can relate better because some of those case studies 904 00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:04,960 probably something that you experience yourself as well. 905 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,400 So uncovering blind spot probably is not something that 906 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,040 people would really be open to sometimes not something that 907 00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,960 they are encouraged as well. So how can we create this 908 00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:19,920 culture, maybe in organization or in team, such that people are 909 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,520 OK to talk about blind spots or even receiving feedback about 910 00:45:23,520 --> 00:45:26,120 blind spots from others? Yeah. 911 00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:29,480 You know, I think it's so powerful when people really 912 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:33,360 internalize that idea of intention versus impact. 913 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:38,120 So when people are really very respectful of the fact that they 914 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,920 assume positive intent. I worked with an executive team 915 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,040 yesterday. And so much of this, the 916 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,960 starting point for teams to be courageous with each other and 917 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,240 to be frank with each other is that we need to assume positive 918 00:45:50,240 --> 00:45:52,400 intent. So when somebody does something 919 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:56,160 that is suboptimal, we first and foremost realize that they had a 920 00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:58,880 positive intent. And so we acknowledge that 921 00:45:58,880 --> 00:46:01,880 positive intent. We say, you know, I recognize 922 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,080 that your intention was probably to X. 923 00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,080 We call it out if we're pretty sure what it was, right. 924 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,200 Your intention was probably to kick this off and generate a ton 925 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,560 of energy and make sure you had credibility to do this. 926 00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:16,720 And I really value that intention. 927 00:46:16,720 --> 00:46:20,800 So let's value the intention. The impact was we made maybe 928 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,160 certain sections of the organization feel less 929 00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,480 important. We made sort of feel like if 930 00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:28,000 you're on this team, then like something's amazing and then if 931 00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:31,000 you're not on this team, you're chopped liver or whatever the 932 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,400 case would be, right? And so we have to make sure that 933 00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:38,360 we anchor in the intention so that the person can hear the 934 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:43,320 impact without feeling like completely blindsided or beat up 935 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,360 over trying to do a good thing because their mind was focused 936 00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:50,240 on the intention. So the more teams can call out 937 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:54,560 positive intention before they give feedback and make sure that 938 00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:56,960 they're saying, I understand you had a positive intention. 939 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,840 And if you don't know the positive intention, like you can 940 00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:02,320 ask, you can say can tell me more about your intention before 941 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,120 you, like when you were doing that. 942 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:06,240 And then you'll hear it and they'll tell you and you'll be 943 00:47:06,240 --> 00:47:08,000 like, Oh my goodness, that is beautiful. 944 00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:09,960 And I can see how you were trying to do that. 945 00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,280 And then usually what you see is that the positive intention is 946 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,760 so much bigger than the impact. It's really bigger. 947 00:47:17,080 --> 00:47:20,800 It's just that the impact needs a little course correction and 948 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:22,520 there's actions that can be taken about that. 949 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,480 So I think the way that people get more and more courageous is 950 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,360 they make this normal. It's normal that you're focused 951 00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:32,240 on your intention. It's the way we're all wired. 952 00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:35,480 It's normal that you can't know your impact all the time. 953 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,720 That's why we have to ask, and it's normal that sometimes we 954 00:47:38,720 --> 00:47:41,640 have to course correct a tiny bit on our intention to be able 955 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,520 to maximize its alignment with our impact. 956 00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:47,480 And I find that when we can do that in an environment where 957 00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,360 we've built trust, where we've practiced this, where we've 958 00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:53,440 gotten rid of the very quick judgement. 959 00:47:53,720 --> 00:47:56,920 I mean, I think that curiosity, I've read somewhere that 960 00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,120 curiosity is the opposite of judgement. 961 00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,000 You know, where we're living in curiosity. 962 00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,120 Like what was your intention? And let me help you lean into 963 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:07,640 that intention. And then here's some impact that 964 00:48:07,640 --> 00:48:11,000 we might want to calibrate to even further bolster your 965 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,160 positive intention, right? Right. 966 00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:14,520 I think it's really beautiful, right. 967 00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,960 So trying to understand the positive intent from the other 968 00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:22,000 person, right, Maybe also call it out, frame it and also tell 969 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,280 them the impact that actually is kind of like mismatch from the 970 00:48:25,280 --> 00:48:27,560 intention. I think if I remember correctly 971 00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,160 in your Ted talk as well about the interactive, right, you 972 00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:31,880 mentioned about these 3A's, right. 973 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:34,680 I think that's kind of like a good framework as well to tell 974 00:48:34,680 --> 00:48:36,840 the other person even though you're frustrated, right? 975 00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:40,240 Acknowledge yes about the positive intent and explain 976 00:48:40,240 --> 00:48:43,920 about the impact. Yeah, the 3A's are appreciate 977 00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,600 ALIGN and AUGMENT. So you start by appreciating 978 00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,720 something the other person, their intention, their whatever 979 00:48:50,720 --> 00:48:53,960 a line you show like you're in alignment with that right. 980 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,080 And then the third is AUGMENT, then you add this data. 981 00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,440 And the reason why the two, it's really important for the brain 982 00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:05,880 to have sort of two alignment statements before you try to 983 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:09,560 nudge somebody somewhere because ultimately they need to feel 984 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:14,040 stable like the two first ones, you stabilize where you are, 985 00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,120 what's already great. And then on this very strong 986 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,200 platform of appreciation and alignment, then you can nudge 987 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,560 each other to be even greater. Right. 988 00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,760 So I think for people who are interested in this tree, a make 989 00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,200 sure you to check out Marissa Hedtalk, right. 990 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,080 So I think she has it on the LinkedIn or her website as well. 991 00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:32,720 So I'll put in the show notes as well. 992 00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:35,320 So Marissa, I think it's a really beautiful conversation. 993 00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:36,800 Unfortunately, we have to wrap up. 994 00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:39,560 But before I let you go, I have one last question. 995 00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,200 I always ask from my guest, which I call 3. 996 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,320 Technical leadership wisdom. So you can also do you know like 997 00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,680 leadership wisdom. Basically it's like an advice 998 00:49:47,680 --> 00:49:50,320 for us to learn from you. So maybe if you can share your 999 00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,120 version of three technical leadership wisdom. 1000 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,800 Yeah, absolutely. Well, I guess the 1st in my mind 1001 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,880 would always be your journey to your highest success, highest 1002 00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:05,000 fulfillment, highest life enjoyment is your journey to 1003 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,200 your best leader. So it's all about leadership. 1004 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:12,640 It starts with that fascination and joy of the unfolding of 1005 00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:14,400 becoming the most. Beautiful leader. 1006 00:50:14,400 --> 00:50:15,360 Possible. So I I. 1007 00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,360 Encourage tech leaders to just think about that because I think 1008 00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:23,080 intuitively we all know there's more in us if we focus on our 1009 00:50:23,080 --> 00:50:25,320 own development and leadership development. 1010 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,280 The second I would say is your blind spot is your breakthrough 1011 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:37,520 and that is really get curious, be bold, understand that there's 1012 00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,400 more upside, there's more ease, there's more flow. 1013 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:45,080 And I guess the final thing that I would say is your best years 1014 00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:49,200 are never your hardest and so figure out your recipes. 1015 00:50:49,560 --> 00:50:52,680 It's always interesting how we think that somehow it's an 1016 00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,160 effort based approach, but there's magic in ease and flow. 1017 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:59,880 Look at your best years. Look at your best projects, See 1018 00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:03,200 how, and then look at what you did and how you did it. 1019 00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:06,880 And often times those are other shortcuts to creating you. 1020 00:51:06,880 --> 00:51:09,120 Know your best years. Divorce that idea. 1021 00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,520 That heart is better. Right. 1022 00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:14,640 Wow, I think that's pretty interesting, right? 1023 00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:16,360 So figure out your recipe, right? 1024 00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:18,720 That could also be a good reflection point. 1025 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,560 We are at the start of the year, don't forget. 1026 00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:23,160 So maybe for those of you who haven't done your reflection, 1027 00:51:23,480 --> 00:51:27,000 find your recipe for success. So Marissa, for people who love 1028 00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:29,920 this conversation, they wanna connect with you online or ask 1029 00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,840 more questions. Is there a place where they can 1030 00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,040 find you online? Yes, absolutely. 1031 00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,560 So online social media, I'm on all the platforms, but I'm 1032 00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:38,840 mostly on LinkedIn. So please connect with me on 1033 00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:43,200 LinkedIn and message me there. My website isleaderly.com, which 1034 00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:47,040 is an Ley and there's a way to contact me there. 1035 00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,640 And yeah, absolutely I've loved this discussion. 1036 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:50,920 I love your. Podcast. 1037 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:52,760 I feel so. Connected to your listeners. 1038 00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,680 So it's been such a pleasure to be with you, Henry. 1039 00:51:54,680 --> 00:51:56,560 Thank you so much. Right. 1040 00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:59,920 Thank you so much as well. So, Marissa, I hope that people 1041 00:51:59,920 --> 00:52:02,320 get to know their blind spots from this conversation, right? 1042 00:52:02,360 --> 00:52:05,640 And they get to work out all those blind spots so that we can 1043 00:52:05,640 --> 00:52:07,400 become a better leader. Amazing. 1044 00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,040 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 1045 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:16,760 until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I 1046 00:52:16,760 --> 00:52:19,480 would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues 1047 00:52:19,720 --> 00:52:22,760 who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode. 1048 00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:25,920 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 1049 00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:28,320 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 1050 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:31,560 It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. 1051 00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:34,920 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 1052 00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,920 the episode page at techlitjournal dot dev website, 1053 00:52:38,240 --> 00:52:41,840 including the full transcript, interesting quotes, and links to 1054 00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:44,240 the resources mentioned from the conversation. 1055 00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,680 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 1056 00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:51,520 list on techlitjournal dot dev to get notified for any future 1057 00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,120 episodes. Stay tuned for the next Techlit 1058 00:52:54,120 --> 00:52:57,000 Journal episode, and until then, goodbye.