1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,640 The biggest thing is to think about delegation as more of a 2 00:00:03,640 --> 00:00:08,240 coaching mindset instead of the doer mentality that most of the 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:11,760 fresh engineers have there. As you mentioned, like, hey, I 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,200 can do this code faster and so why not, you know, just do it 5 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:18,040 myself. So it's not the idea about 6 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,720 looking at that immediate task in hand, it's about teaching 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:24,480 that to others. That way you can have like more 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:26,480 of a multiplier effect for future. 9 00:00:31,510 --> 00:00:36,670 Hey everyone, my name is Henry Surya Virawan and you're 10 00:00:36,670 --> 00:00:40,270 listening to the Technically Juno Podcast, the show where 11 00:00:40,270 --> 00:00:42,470 I'll be bringing you the greatest technical leaders, 12 00:00:42,750 --> 00:00:46,350 practitioners, and thought leaders in the industry to 13 00:00:46,350 --> 00:00:50,590 discuss about their journey, ideas and practices that we all 14 00:00:50,590 --> 00:00:54,110 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 15 00:00:54,630 --> 00:00:56,830 and to make an impact in your personal work. 16 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:05,080 So let's dive into our journal. Hi everyone. 17 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,440 Welcome to The Technical Journal Podcast, the podcast where you 18 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,280 can learn about technical leadership and excellence from 19 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:14,320 my conversations with great tall leaders in the tech industry. 20 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:17,880 If this is your first time listening, please subscribe on 21 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:21,280 your podcast app and social media on LinkedIn, Twitter and 22 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:25,000 Instagram, and also on YouTube and TikTok for video contents. 23 00:01:25,550 --> 00:01:28,470 And to support my work in producing this podcast, you can 24 00:01:28,510 --> 00:01:32,110 either buy me a coffee at techlijuna dot deaf slash tip or 25 00:01:32,110 --> 00:01:35,470 become a patron at techlijuna dot deaf slash patron. 26 00:01:36,510 --> 00:01:39,190 My guest for today's episode is Akansha Gupta. 27 00:01:39,630 --> 00:01:43,070 She is the author of Think Like a Software Engineering Manager. 28 00:01:43,590 --> 00:01:46,390 In this episode, Akansha described the role of an 29 00:01:46,390 --> 00:01:49,270 engineering manager and the key traits of being a good 30 00:01:49,270 --> 00:01:52,870 engineering manager. She gave advice on how one can 31 00:01:52,870 --> 00:01:56,010 transition to the Em role. And talk about the difference 32 00:01:56,010 --> 00:01:58,290 between engineering management and leadership. 33 00:01:58,890 --> 00:02:01,890 Hakansha then walk us through the three key pillars of 34 00:02:01,890 --> 00:02:05,170 engineering management, which are people, process and 35 00:02:05,170 --> 00:02:07,690 projects. Throughout the conversation, we 36 00:02:07,690 --> 00:02:10,810 discussed topics such as delegation, performance 37 00:02:10,810 --> 00:02:13,930 management, cross functional collaboration and time 38 00:02:13,930 --> 00:02:16,490 management. Hakansha also shared her 39 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:19,530 practical advice for women in technology who are also 40 00:02:19,530 --> 00:02:22,130 interested in becoming an engineering manager. 41 00:02:22,670 --> 00:02:25,550 That includes tips based on her own personal journey. 42 00:02:26,510 --> 00:02:29,230 I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and learn various 43 00:02:29,230 --> 00:02:31,070 aspects of an engineering manager. 44 00:02:31,470 --> 00:02:34,110 If you find it useful, please help Share this with your 45 00:02:34,110 --> 00:02:37,350 colleagues, your friends and communities, and leave a 5 star 46 00:02:37,350 --> 00:02:40,150 rating and review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 47 00:02:40,670 --> 00:02:43,830 It will help me a lot in getting more people discover and listen 48 00:02:43,830 --> 00:02:46,190 to this podcast and I really appreciate it. 49 00:02:46,870 --> 00:02:50,190 Let's go to my conversation with Akansha after quick words from 50 00:02:50,190 --> 00:02:52,790 our sponsor. Are you looking for a new cool 51 00:02:52,790 --> 00:02:55,710 swag? Techlejuno now offers you some 52 00:02:55,710 --> 00:02:57,590 swags that you can purchase online. 53 00:02:57,990 --> 00:03:01,470 These swags are printed on demand based on your preference 54 00:03:01,710 --> 00:03:04,390 and will be delivered safely to you all over the world. 55 00:03:04,390 --> 00:03:07,750 Where shipping is available, check out all the cool swags 56 00:03:07,750 --> 00:03:10,990 available by visiting Techlejuno dot dev shop. 57 00:03:11,350 --> 00:03:14,430 And don't forget to brag yourself once you receive any of 58 00:03:14,430 --> 00:03:18,910 those swags. Hey, everyone, it's good to be 59 00:03:18,910 --> 00:03:21,310 back here again with another new episode of the Technical Journal 60 00:03:21,310 --> 00:03:23,430 Podcast. Today I have with me Akansha 61 00:03:23,430 --> 00:03:25,990 Gupta. So today we'll be discussing how 62 00:03:25,990 --> 00:03:28,070 to think like a software engineering manager. 63 00:03:28,470 --> 00:03:30,510 So Akansha, thank you so much for your time. 64 00:03:30,510 --> 00:03:32,110 Looking forward for this conversation. 65 00:03:32,750 --> 00:03:36,550 Thank you Henry for inviting me and I'm really looking forward 66 00:03:36,550 --> 00:03:38,550 for the next set of our. Right. 67 00:03:38,670 --> 00:03:41,950 So I always love to ask my guests inviting you to share 68 00:03:41,950 --> 00:03:44,470 more about yourself, maybe any career highlights or turning 69 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:47,070 points that you think are interesting to share for the 70 00:03:47,070 --> 00:03:49,910 audience here to learn from you? Absolutely. 71 00:03:49,910 --> 00:03:54,470 So for me personally, my journey in computer science started when 72 00:03:54,470 --> 00:03:59,110 I was a kid, at the age of around 7:00 when my dad got a 73 00:03:59,110 --> 00:04:01,110 computer for the first time in the house. 74 00:04:01,590 --> 00:04:04,630 So obviously, as every other child, my first instinct was to 75 00:04:04,630 --> 00:04:08,670 use it to, you know, play games, and that was the only purpose 76 00:04:08,670 --> 00:04:11,830 for me for that computer. Eventually I took up some 77 00:04:11,830 --> 00:04:14,870 computer science courses in my school, and I was fortunate 78 00:04:14,870 --> 00:04:18,070 enough that they had that opportunity early in the school 79 00:04:18,070 --> 00:04:21,110 itself. And that obviously turned my 80 00:04:21,110 --> 00:04:24,310 head into using the power of computers. 81 00:04:24,890 --> 00:04:28,730 And my dad always wanted me to be a doctor, but I always 82 00:04:28,730 --> 00:04:31,930 dreaded that profession, so hats off to all the doctors out 83 00:04:31,930 --> 00:04:34,330 there. And so I decided to pursue 84 00:04:34,330 --> 00:04:36,810 computer science as my undergrad course. 85 00:04:37,250 --> 00:04:40,730 So it was a fun time. Obviously with more male 86 00:04:41,010 --> 00:04:44,450 engineers in the room, it is always a fascinating field. 87 00:04:44,960 --> 00:04:49,160 And then the biggest turning point for me was getting an 88 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,040 internship with Microsoft as part of my third year internship 89 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,800 program. And that was the first time and 90 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:00,240 I actually got like some sort of industry experience working with 91 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:04,680 professionals thinking more other than the academia itself. 92 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,200 And I think that was the biggest, you know, Launchpad for 93 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,650 my career growth. I later on joined Microsoft as a 94 00:05:11,650 --> 00:05:15,090 full time employee, worked for a few years back in India. 95 00:05:15,290 --> 00:05:17,130 That's where originally I am from. 96 00:05:17,570 --> 00:05:21,450 And then I decided to pursue my Masters in Computer Science. 97 00:05:21,850 --> 00:05:24,570 At that time, obviously I applied to some of the dream 98 00:05:24,570 --> 00:05:29,290 colleges in United States and I was fortunate to join Columbia 99 00:05:29,290 --> 00:05:32,650 University in the City of New York, where I pursued my Masters 100 00:05:32,650 --> 00:05:35,610 in Computer Science with specialization in Software 101 00:05:35,610 --> 00:05:38,610 Engineering. And after that, one after the 102 00:05:38,610 --> 00:05:42,210 other, I joined Audible as my first full time job in the 103 00:05:42,210 --> 00:05:44,850 United States, then followed by Robin Hood. 104 00:05:45,210 --> 00:05:49,970 And currently I'm with Amazon in their AWS organization as a 105 00:05:49,970 --> 00:05:52,970 Software Engineering Manager. So yeah, that's me in a 106 00:05:52,970 --> 00:05:55,490 nutshell. Thank you so much for sharing 107 00:05:55,490 --> 00:05:57,210 your story. I think it's really interesting 108 00:05:57,210 --> 00:06:00,010 what got you like so many guests that I have as well. 109 00:06:00,010 --> 00:06:02,210 So the first time they got computer, they are always 110 00:06:02,210 --> 00:06:05,210 intrigued and that let them into this industry, right? 111 00:06:05,670 --> 00:06:08,750 You recently published a book titled Think Like a Software 112 00:06:08,750 --> 00:06:11,550 Engineering Manager maybe. Looking back, what were the 113 00:06:11,550 --> 00:06:14,310 story behind how you come up with this book? 114 00:06:14,470 --> 00:06:17,510 Is it something like a collection of learning lessons 115 00:06:17,510 --> 00:06:20,070 from your journey, or is it something else that brought you 116 00:06:20,070 --> 00:06:23,510 into writing the book? Yeah, So getting the book out 117 00:06:23,510 --> 00:06:26,590 has been one of my most interesting journey, as well as 118 00:06:26,590 --> 00:06:29,150 like the proudest achievement I would say so far. 119 00:06:29,510 --> 00:06:33,110 So this was basically an idea in my head when I was changing my 120 00:06:33,110 --> 00:06:37,090 jobs from Audible to Robin Hood. So as a software engineer, every 121 00:06:37,090 --> 00:06:40,610 time I was making a job change, there were tons and tons of 122 00:06:40,610 --> 00:06:43,290 resources. You have hacker rank, you have 123 00:06:43,290 --> 00:06:47,250 lead code and whatnot to go ahead practice questions, and 124 00:06:47,250 --> 00:06:49,250 obviously, you know, coding in different languages. 125 00:06:49,650 --> 00:06:53,530 As an engineering manager, I found very limited resources. 126 00:06:53,810 --> 00:06:56,450 There were like a lot of Harvard Business Review books that I 127 00:06:56,450 --> 00:06:59,730 could refer to, but nothing concrete in form of like 128 00:06:59,730 --> 00:07:03,730 actually strategizing that job change or, you know, helping me 129 00:07:03,730 --> 00:07:07,120 with that career move. And I did obviously Struggle 130 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:10,360 reached out to, you know, some of the awesome mentors and 131 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:13,360 sponsors I've had in my life to help me guide through that 132 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:18,080 process and all my experiences. You know, my notes really 133 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,240 intrigued me with the idea of whatever I struggled with. 134 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,440 Why not get something out for everybody that can help the 135 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,800 community? And that was the main motivation 136 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:31,560 behind getting the book out. Now obviously this was a thought 137 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,450 to begin with. The next step was to reach out 138 00:07:34,450 --> 00:07:37,450 to my friend circle and my network to see if somebody has 139 00:07:37,450 --> 00:07:39,530 published a book. And again, being an 140 00:07:39,530 --> 00:07:42,330 international student, this is not something that a lot of us 141 00:07:42,370 --> 00:07:45,690 think through. And so that again was another 142 00:07:45,690 --> 00:07:49,330 journey and a struggle to actually go ahead, pitch your 143 00:07:49,330 --> 00:07:53,370 idea, look out for publishers who would be able to vouch for 144 00:07:53,370 --> 00:07:57,060 your book and get you published. So that was another interesting 145 00:07:57,060 --> 00:08:00,420 journey going through it. And finally, I was able to 146 00:08:00,420 --> 00:08:03,700 decide on one publisher and then go ahead with the book. 147 00:08:04,260 --> 00:08:06,500 Yes. I think it's interesting. 148 00:08:06,500 --> 00:08:09,620 It always started to solve your own problems, right? 149 00:08:09,620 --> 00:08:13,740 And I can say there are limited resources like you said about 150 00:08:13,740 --> 00:08:16,900 engineering management. Many of them actually come in a 151 00:08:16,900 --> 00:08:19,430 blog post. There are few EM books, EM 152 00:08:19,430 --> 00:08:22,910 related books, but I think still your kind will be helpful to the 153 00:08:22,910 --> 00:08:25,550 industry for people who are new to this role, right? 154 00:08:25,870 --> 00:08:28,550 Which bring us to the first question that I'd like to ask 155 00:08:28,550 --> 00:08:31,190 from you is what is the definition of Engineering 156 00:08:31,190 --> 00:08:34,510 Manager role and what is the role and responsibility of 157 00:08:34,510 --> 00:08:37,270 Engineering manager? Maybe we can start from there. 158 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:40,720 Yes. So I think in my opinion and 159 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,640 again you know it's personal opinion, the Engineering Manager 160 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,680 role, really in layman terms it's basically you are an 161 00:08:46,680 --> 00:08:49,000 engineer and you can also do management. 162 00:08:49,000 --> 00:08:53,640 So you know engineering Manager. Overall, I feel that this role 163 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:58,400 is sometimes undervalued but comprises of a lot of important 164 00:08:58,400 --> 00:09:01,560 roles and responsibilities to help you manage A-Team. 165 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,400 So let's say you are 10 engineers. 166 00:09:04,560 --> 00:09:08,970 Obviously, each individually provides great output, but there 167 00:09:08,970 --> 00:09:12,250 needs to be a single thread that kind of consolidates all of 168 00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:14,370 them, makes sure they are on track. 169 00:09:14,770 --> 00:09:18,770 Not only that, we need someone with basic career development 170 00:09:18,970 --> 00:09:22,410 helping them guide and do like a cross check, hey, what's going 171 00:09:22,410 --> 00:09:25,170 well, what could be improved, what are the future 172 00:09:25,170 --> 00:09:27,970 opportunities? And I think that's where the 173 00:09:28,050 --> 00:09:32,450 engineering manager role really comes into the picture, where 174 00:09:32,490 --> 00:09:35,410 they cut across the three pillars of the people, the 175 00:09:35,410 --> 00:09:38,990 processes and obviously the projects in the industry. 176 00:09:39,390 --> 00:09:42,750 So from the people aspect, as I mentioned, helping people with 177 00:09:42,750 --> 00:09:45,910 one-on-one conversations, career development and all those 178 00:09:45,910 --> 00:09:51,150 opportunities from the processes and making sure that the team 179 00:09:51,150 --> 00:09:54,710 and the organization is working well like a well oiled machine 180 00:09:54,990 --> 00:09:57,630 and is you know performing to the best of its ability. 181 00:09:58,030 --> 00:10:01,660 That is equally important. And obviously the third pillar 182 00:10:01,660 --> 00:10:05,020 or the 3rd component which is the projects where you know we 183 00:10:05,020 --> 00:10:07,860 are as a company, we are continuously delivering value to 184 00:10:07,860 --> 00:10:11,380 our customers and making sure what we are building is actually 185 00:10:11,380 --> 00:10:14,740 used by the end customers. So that's how I kind of look at 186 00:10:14,740 --> 00:10:18,420 the whole engineering manager role and you know how it plays 187 00:10:18,420 --> 00:10:20,800 against the three pillars. Right. 188 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,360 I can see that you group them into these three pillars. 189 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,240 The 1st is like people and then the project and then also the 190 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:28,440 process, right, which can be overwhelming. 191 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,480 So I can see so many engineering managers feeling overwhelmed 192 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:35,640 with this role itself. And you can see it touches so 193 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,280 many different aspects and not to mention probably also the 194 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,840 technical aspects because you mentioned in the beginning it is 195 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,760 like a combination of the engineer plus also management, 196 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:45,650 right? So there could be some technical 197 00:10:45,650 --> 00:10:48,050 aspects that are also demanded from this role. 198 00:10:48,450 --> 00:10:51,410 So for people who are contemplating, maybe they are 199 00:10:51,930 --> 00:10:54,690 just software engineers. Now they are getting into the 200 00:10:54,690 --> 00:10:57,770 senior level and looking into two different parts which is 201 00:10:57,770 --> 00:11:00,330 common in most of the big tech companies. 202 00:11:00,410 --> 00:11:04,010 What would be some of the thinking process that if you can 203 00:11:04,010 --> 00:11:08,130 advise them to think whether this engineering management role 204 00:11:08,130 --> 00:11:10,230 is suitable for them? Yep. 205 00:11:10,550 --> 00:11:13,550 So this is a great question just because being a software 206 00:11:13,550 --> 00:11:16,310 engineer myself I have done that transition to an engineering 207 00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:19,910 manager and few years back this was exactly the question that 208 00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:22,950 was in my head. So I think first of all I would 209 00:11:22,950 --> 00:11:27,310 like to suggest to all the engineers that any type moving 210 00:11:27,310 --> 00:11:30,110 to management, special engineering management is not a 211 00:11:30,110 --> 00:11:32,510 promotion. I know some of the people think 212 00:11:32,510 --> 00:11:35,070 like that or you know it is promoted in that way. 213 00:11:35,540 --> 00:11:39,060 It's like a lateral move in all the big tech companies where 214 00:11:39,300 --> 00:11:42,980 obviously you can continue to be an individual contributor and go 215 00:11:42,980 --> 00:11:46,820 on in that path or make that lateral move to engineering 216 00:11:46,820 --> 00:11:48,540 management. So I think that's the first 217 00:11:48,580 --> 00:11:51,620 piece of caution I would give to everybody who's contemplating 218 00:11:51,620 --> 00:11:54,660 about that. And I think the next way you 219 00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:57,220 should be thinking about is what is that? 220 00:11:57,220 --> 00:12:00,940 I'm looking out from that role. Is it just the title that 221 00:12:00,940 --> 00:12:02,780 impresses me? Like, hey, you know, I'll be a 222 00:12:02,780 --> 00:12:05,790 manager. What is the motivation behind 223 00:12:05,830 --> 00:12:07,630 thinking about engineering management? 224 00:12:08,030 --> 00:12:11,910 Now if your answer is that, yes, I love coaching people. 225 00:12:11,910 --> 00:12:16,790 People's growth really motivates me, inspires me, I love to see 226 00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:20,270 projects going end to end, then yes, that's the right role for 227 00:12:20,270 --> 00:12:22,030 you. But as I said, you know, if 228 00:12:22,030 --> 00:12:25,190 you're going behind the title and just the perks that come 229 00:12:25,190 --> 00:12:28,160 with it like being able to manage a team, I would 230 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,720 definitely ask you to rethink your ideas of whether you want 231 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,480 to actually pursue engineering management. 232 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,200 So I think that's the first thing that comes on top of my 233 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,800 mind. Another piece of advice would be 234 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:43,560 that eventually you would have to take a step back from coding. 235 00:12:43,720 --> 00:12:46,360 I know that sounds sometimes contradictory that yes you are 236 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:49,960 an engineering manager, but with the role comes other set of 237 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:53,860 responsibilities and if you continue to be a full-fledged 238 00:12:53,900 --> 00:12:57,540 engineer plus manager, obviously you know you are moving towards 239 00:12:57,540 --> 00:13:00,940 like burnout stage, right? In the end you have those X 240 00:13:01,020 --> 00:13:02,980 number of hours which are your work hours. 241 00:13:03,300 --> 00:13:06,740 Now, I'm not saying that you have to not have that technical 242 00:13:06,740 --> 00:13:10,460 acumen, but you need to change your responsibilities maybe from 243 00:13:10,460 --> 00:13:15,060 active coding to reviewing code or more participation in design 244 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:18,060 discussions versus actually implementing the design. 245 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,760 So those are the things just to keep in mind and accept them 246 00:13:22,800 --> 00:13:24,760 before you're thinking about the transition. 247 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,360 And I do cover this whole individual contributor to an EM 248 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,880 transition in detail in my book. So yes. 249 00:13:33,440 --> 00:13:36,560 Yeah, it's always the questions on top of your mind when you are 250 00:13:36,560 --> 00:13:37,960 thinking of this transition, right? 251 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:40,440 So like you said in the beginning, it's not a promotion. 252 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,040 And likewise, if you try but you dislike the role and you want to 253 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,200 go back to the IC, it's also not a demotion. 254 00:13:46,590 --> 00:13:49,230 Think that's a very, very first important thing that we should 255 00:13:49,230 --> 00:13:51,550 think about, right. So these transitions is not like 256 00:13:51,550 --> 00:13:55,070 one way journey you can always go back, doesn't mean that it's 257 00:13:55,070 --> 00:13:56,430 a promotion or the emotion, right. 258 00:13:56,430 --> 00:13:59,390 So I think that's really key. And you also touch on a good 259 00:13:59,390 --> 00:14:02,350 point in my view is that the coding time, right, so many 260 00:14:02,350 --> 00:14:05,390 engineers started their career as an engineer, their love 261 00:14:05,390 --> 00:14:07,350 coding, they love building things. 262 00:14:07,350 --> 00:14:10,310 But as you go into management, more of your responsibilities 263 00:14:10,310 --> 00:14:12,510 should change, right? Instead of the hands on coding. 264 00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:15,030 Could be something more like a review, or maybe just 265 00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:16,990 validating, reviewing and things like that. 266 00:14:17,390 --> 00:14:21,110 You also touch on a few things. That many people would be 267 00:14:21,230 --> 00:14:24,750 classifying them as soft skills. In your book you cover a few 268 00:14:24,750 --> 00:14:28,270 traits of how someone could become a good EM, right? 269 00:14:28,510 --> 00:14:32,190 So maybe looking from the traits aspect, what are some of the key 270 00:14:32,190 --> 00:14:35,190 traits or the soft skills that you think will be really crucial 271 00:14:35,190 --> 00:14:38,090 if someone wants to be a good EM, Yes. 272 00:14:38,090 --> 00:14:41,290 So some of the key traits that I feel, you know, kind of 273 00:14:41,290 --> 00:14:45,930 differentiate good EM from not so good EM would be first of all 274 00:14:45,930 --> 00:14:48,970 the people aspect, right. You really have to care for your 275 00:14:48,970 --> 00:14:52,050 people, whether it's people who are reporting to you, whether 276 00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:55,330 it's your peers or people above you in the leadership change. 277 00:14:55,330 --> 00:14:59,090 So basically at all levels really helping them, the career 278 00:14:59,090 --> 00:15:01,890 development. For example, you know, a lot of 279 00:15:01,890 --> 00:15:04,960 people ask me, hey, how do you structure your one on ones? 280 00:15:04,960 --> 00:15:07,000 So one on ones are for the people. 281 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:10,080 It's not about asking for project updates or looking at, 282 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,280 hey, did you, you know, finish that task right. 283 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:16,520 It's really the engineer's time to help coach and guide a road 284 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:18,960 map for their career. So caring for people is the 285 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:23,400 first thing. Second, I see an EM as more of a 286 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:28,280 visionary, someone who's there to kind of look at the overall 287 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:32,710 organization strategy, their mission statement and condense 288 00:15:32,710 --> 00:15:36,110 it to what it translates to at the team level or the 289 00:15:36,110 --> 00:15:38,110 organization level that they are managing. 290 00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:42,870 So really making sure that the company's Okr's are translated 291 00:15:42,870 --> 00:15:45,990 to a team level OKR objective key and results. 292 00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:49,430 That's how they should be able to give that vision to the team 293 00:15:49,750 --> 00:15:52,710 and make them understand if you are a team, why you are a team. 294 00:15:52,750 --> 00:15:56,250 You know, we all are in this together and overall you know, 295 00:15:56,250 --> 00:15:58,290 you need to be an effective communicator. 296 00:15:58,450 --> 00:16:01,330 You should be able to communicate and comprehend the 297 00:16:01,330 --> 00:16:03,370 ideas and share it with the broader team. 298 00:16:03,770 --> 00:16:07,490 And obviously it's not a one way communication like keeping that 299 00:16:07,490 --> 00:16:10,050 door open where you are approachable by your team 300 00:16:10,050 --> 00:16:12,930 members and they can knock on the door anytime and be like 301 00:16:12,930 --> 00:16:15,650 hey, this is you know, this is where we need your help or this 302 00:16:15,650 --> 00:16:17,410 is a roadblocker where you can help. 303 00:16:17,570 --> 00:16:20,130 So those are the things to definitely keep in mind. 304 00:16:20,670 --> 00:16:23,950 I think these are like the top traits and obviously keeping 305 00:16:23,950 --> 00:16:28,070 like the EQ factor as it is said emotional intelligence and the 306 00:16:28,070 --> 00:16:30,550 empathy. I think that is equally 307 00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:33,310 important. And the last thing I would say 308 00:16:33,310 --> 00:16:37,790 is leading your team by example. So a lot of times you need to 309 00:16:37,990 --> 00:16:40,670 make sure that what you're asking your team members is 310 00:16:40,670 --> 00:16:43,470 something you would do. You're not having unrealistic 311 00:16:43,470 --> 00:16:45,110 expectations from your team members. 312 00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:48,350 So leading to example, I feel you know is very important 313 00:16:48,690 --> 00:16:51,930 sharing my own one personal example, there was a time when 314 00:16:52,090 --> 00:16:56,330 in the next quarter my team was stars to work on a new set of 315 00:16:57,130 --> 00:17:01,130 AWS services and at that time our team was not very well 316 00:17:01,290 --> 00:17:04,089 versed with the AWS set of technology. 317 00:17:04,609 --> 00:17:08,450 So what I made sure is that since we had a heads up on 318 00:17:08,450 --> 00:17:12,089 what's coming in the next quarter, I dived into you know, 319 00:17:12,130 --> 00:17:15,170 understanding the AWS certifications, played a little 320 00:17:15,170 --> 00:17:21,010 bit hands on with the AWS suite itself, got myself certified and 321 00:17:21,010 --> 00:17:23,250 then obviously I had the story to share. 322 00:17:23,250 --> 00:17:26,050 And next, you know, I went into the one-on-one, shared it with 323 00:17:26,050 --> 00:17:30,610 my team, was able to also share my resources and get them ready 324 00:17:30,610 --> 00:17:33,770 for what was coming in. So this was like an example 325 00:17:33,770 --> 00:17:36,930 where I didn't go and expect the team to like, hey, go get 326 00:17:36,930 --> 00:17:40,570 yourself AWS certified. It was more of like if I could 327 00:17:40,570 --> 00:17:44,630 do it as an EM, then let's together get into this journey 328 00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:47,750 and take it to the finish line. Well, thanks for sharing that 329 00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:50,030 personal story. So if I can summarize the few 330 00:17:50,030 --> 00:17:51,430 key traits that you mentioned just now. 331 00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:53,230 The first is the people aspect, right? 332 00:17:53,230 --> 00:17:57,070 You really need to care and you really need to kind of like like 333 00:17:57,070 --> 00:17:59,550 working with people, right. It's not like super like, but 334 00:17:59,550 --> 00:18:02,710 you have to deal with people and hence you need to be able to be 335 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:04,390 comfortable working with people, right. 336 00:18:04,750 --> 00:18:06,750 And then the second thing is about visionary, right? 337 00:18:06,750 --> 00:18:09,950 Trying to translate companies or chaos into the team or chaos, 338 00:18:09,950 --> 00:18:12,070 making sure things get improved and. 339 00:18:12,310 --> 00:18:16,230 To bring value and communicator and I like also the EQ part, the 340 00:18:16,230 --> 00:18:18,670 emotional aspect. So sometimes you are frustrated, 341 00:18:18,670 --> 00:18:21,590 but you cannot show that to all the people in the team, right? 342 00:18:21,910 --> 00:18:23,830 Not to make everyone is frustrated as well. 343 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:26,270 And also the empathy part. Some people may have their own 344 00:18:26,270 --> 00:18:29,430 personal challenges and you need to exercise that empathy to help 345 00:18:29,430 --> 00:18:31,310 them instead of making them worse. 346 00:18:31,860 --> 00:18:34,060 And I think the last one, always leading by example. 347 00:18:34,140 --> 00:18:37,100 As a manager, I think you are not the boss all the time, 348 00:18:37,100 --> 00:18:39,540 right? You also need to lead by maybe 349 00:18:39,620 --> 00:18:42,620 working with the people showing by example, which kind of like 350 00:18:42,620 --> 00:18:46,300 brings me to the next question. Some people think or confuse the 351 00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:49,540 term engineering manager and engineering leaders, right? 352 00:18:49,820 --> 00:18:52,100 Is there any kind of a distinction in your view? 353 00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:54,140 And if there's any, what is the distinction here? 354 00:18:54,980 --> 00:18:59,680 Yes, that's a great question, something that even I have got 355 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,120 confused in my life early on in the career. 356 00:19:02,120 --> 00:19:05,720 So I would say that leadership is more of a mindset or an 357 00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:09,520 approach while management is more of like a title or a 358 00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:13,440 position that you hold. So what I mean by that is that 359 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:16,560 as an engineering leader, you are kind of there to inspire 360 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,760 your team, coach your team. You are more setting the culture 361 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:24,640 for the organization and the company as a whole, while the 362 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:29,570 way I look at management is more of the executional aspect of it 363 00:19:29,850 --> 00:19:33,170 which can be obviously doing the admin tasks, making sure the 364 00:19:33,170 --> 00:19:36,090 projects reach the delivery time and so forth. 365 00:19:36,490 --> 00:19:39,730 So I know that these two terms, engineering manager and 366 00:19:39,730 --> 00:19:42,490 engineering leader are kind of used interchangeably. 367 00:19:42,850 --> 00:19:45,650 But it is important to understand the key difference 368 00:19:45,650 --> 00:19:48,810 that management is more of like a role in position while 369 00:19:48,810 --> 00:19:54,410 leadership is a mindset. And what is the key is all of us 370 00:19:54,410 --> 00:19:58,930 to be like great engineering leaders and do you really help 371 00:19:58,930 --> 00:20:01,170 move the needle and you know get towards the success? 372 00:20:01,890 --> 00:20:05,010 So if I understand what you just now mentioned is that yes, there 373 00:20:05,010 --> 00:20:07,530 is difference, right? The leadership is all about 374 00:20:07,530 --> 00:20:09,850 mindset. The management part is basically 375 00:20:09,850 --> 00:20:12,650 getting things done is the critical aspect to it. 376 00:20:13,090 --> 00:20:16,410 And I think one key challenge that I see some people think is 377 00:20:16,410 --> 00:20:19,330 like manager here is become the boss like I said in the 378 00:20:19,330 --> 00:20:21,610 beginning, right? And they always have to decide 379 00:20:21,610 --> 00:20:24,490 many, many things. Do you have some tips for people 380 00:20:24,490 --> 00:20:28,150 who think like that? Trying to be the go to person, 381 00:20:28,150 --> 00:20:29,950 Always deciding about things right? 382 00:20:29,950 --> 00:20:33,150 Always making decisions? Is that a good indicator of a 383 00:20:33,150 --> 00:20:36,230 good engineering manager? Great question, Henry. 384 00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:39,110 So I don't think so and especially you know it kind of 385 00:20:39,110 --> 00:20:42,070 boils down to the earlier idea that moving to engineering 386 00:20:42,070 --> 00:20:46,150 management is not a promotion. So that person can be someone 387 00:20:46,150 --> 00:20:49,150 who's an engineering manager, but maybe from the company's 388 00:20:49,150 --> 00:20:51,670 leveling guidelines is at the same level as you. 389 00:20:51,950 --> 00:20:56,300 So they are not your boss, but. The way I would think is 390 00:20:56,340 --> 00:20:59,820 thinking the EM role is more of a facilitator and a career 391 00:20:59,820 --> 00:21:04,420 coach, so they are there for you in terms of helping you succeed 392 00:21:04,620 --> 00:21:07,460 in your career. At the same time, looking into 393 00:21:07,540 --> 00:21:11,580 the team's execution, but not necessarily someone who's a 394 00:21:11,580 --> 00:21:13,680 boss. Now at the same time, I would 395 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,640 not say it can be a completely informal friend relationship, 396 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:20,680 because obviously in the end you need to take things seriously, 397 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,120 both phase. And that's another interesting 398 00:21:23,120 --> 00:21:26,000 topic I touch in the book, that you cannot be completely 399 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:28,800 informal or be fully friends. You know, as a software 400 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,280 engineer, be fully friends with your engineering manager. 401 00:21:31,700 --> 00:21:35,260 But it's more of like a partnership that needs to be 402 00:21:35,260 --> 00:21:38,540 done together and AM is more of a facilitator in terms of 403 00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:41,620 communication with the cross functional partners and the 404 00:21:41,660 --> 00:21:45,260 overall execution of the team. I like the term facilitator that 405 00:21:45,260 --> 00:21:46,940 you bring up here. So I think that's really 406 00:21:46,940 --> 00:21:49,020 crucial, right. So you are not there to always 407 00:21:49,020 --> 00:21:51,020 make decisions. Sometimes you facilitate, yes, 408 00:21:51,020 --> 00:21:53,780 sometimes you make tough decisions, sometimes you also 409 00:21:53,780 --> 00:21:55,860 care about people. And I think it's really, really 410 00:21:55,860 --> 00:21:58,590 key speaking about the industry these days. 411 00:21:58,590 --> 00:21:59,990 You mentioned in the beginning, right? 412 00:21:59,990 --> 00:22:02,470 So it is a male dominated career. 413 00:22:02,750 --> 00:22:06,310 So any kind of interesting insights from your own journey 414 00:22:06,470 --> 00:22:08,710 to become an engineering manager for female, right. 415 00:22:08,710 --> 00:22:11,950 So for those women in tech, is there anything that you want to 416 00:22:12,150 --> 00:22:14,790 give to them? Maybe some kind of advice for 417 00:22:14,790 --> 00:22:17,710 them to have to think about? Right, definitely. 418 00:22:17,710 --> 00:22:20,830 You know, being a women of color and obviously coming from India, 419 00:22:21,070 --> 00:22:24,270 this is an industry that is currently male dominated. 420 00:22:24,670 --> 00:22:28,190 But one thing I can tell you is that with the evolving world, 421 00:22:28,190 --> 00:22:31,950 there are so many, you know, different programs even within 422 00:22:31,950 --> 00:22:35,550 the companies and outside that are really helping get more and 423 00:22:35,550 --> 00:22:38,670 more women into the industry. So just thinking from the 424 00:22:38,670 --> 00:22:42,190 internal company perspective, I've seen multiple mentorship 425 00:22:42,190 --> 00:22:45,710 programs where you can get mentors and sponsors to help you 426 00:22:46,190 --> 00:22:48,630 in your journey. If you would like to get into a 427 00:22:48,630 --> 00:22:51,830 leadership role outside the company, there are several 428 00:22:51,830 --> 00:22:54,430 platforms that one can look at some of the. 429 00:22:54,670 --> 00:22:58,510 Platforms where I myself am a mentor are things like Plato, 430 00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:03,030 HQ, Growth Mentor, First Round, Fast track which accepts 431 00:23:03,030 --> 00:23:06,430 applications and one can apply and you can mention what sort of 432 00:23:06,430 --> 00:23:09,470 a mentor are you looking for. So there is a fact that it's a 433 00:23:09,470 --> 00:23:12,270 male dominated industry, but at the same time there are a lot of 434 00:23:12,270 --> 00:23:16,510 resources where you can break that bar and actually succeed. 435 00:23:16,910 --> 00:23:20,670 Another thing I would say is that we need to, as women, we 436 00:23:20,670 --> 00:23:22,610 need to build a community. Right. 437 00:23:22,810 --> 00:23:25,490 Get together like basically hand in hand. 438 00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:29,410 We can actually really change the whole industry landscape. 439 00:23:29,730 --> 00:23:34,210 So really, find mentors or sponsors who have done that 440 00:23:34,210 --> 00:23:37,650 journey and they can help you guide how they navigated through 441 00:23:37,650 --> 00:23:40,180 those challenges. It's not just the professional 442 00:23:40,180 --> 00:23:44,180 challenges, but at the same time balancing a family, your own 443 00:23:44,180 --> 00:23:46,500 personal goals and career aspirations. 444 00:23:46,700 --> 00:23:50,340 So kinda you know, I always look at female leaders and how they 445 00:23:50,340 --> 00:23:53,300 have gone through that journey. I try to connect with them 446 00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:55,340 either through LinkedIn or through these different 447 00:23:55,340 --> 00:23:58,700 mentorship platforms. So that would be my 1 tip to 448 00:23:58,700 --> 00:24:02,220 dream big and don't let the whole idea of that this is a 449 00:24:02,220 --> 00:24:05,300 male dominated society to stop you from achieving what you 450 00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,210 really want to achieve. I think that's a really 451 00:24:08,210 --> 00:24:10,770 beautiful message, right, for those women who are thinking 452 00:24:10,770 --> 00:24:13,530 about doing the career of engineering management. 453 00:24:13,650 --> 00:24:15,530 So I think it is possible definitely. 454 00:24:15,530 --> 00:24:17,690 Even though you think it's a male dominated thing. 455 00:24:17,690 --> 00:24:20,610 I can also see in the industry there are so many female in the 456 00:24:20,610 --> 00:24:23,730 engineering leadership roles. So don't hesitate, right? 457 00:24:23,730 --> 00:24:26,970 Build communities, find mentors like Akansha mentioned just now 458 00:24:27,050 --> 00:24:29,130 and learn from them, right. So I think it's definitely 459 00:24:29,130 --> 00:24:31,850 possible. So let's go to the three key 460 00:24:31,850 --> 00:24:33,250 pillars that you mentioned in your book. 461 00:24:33,250 --> 00:24:34,730 Again, people project and process. 462 00:24:34,730 --> 00:24:36,410 So let's start with the people aspect. 463 00:24:36,850 --> 00:24:39,930 We won't be covering all of the people things, but I think there 464 00:24:39,930 --> 00:24:42,650 are two things that I want to cover in this conversation. 465 00:24:42,650 --> 00:24:44,210 The first one is about delegation. 466 00:24:44,530 --> 00:24:47,210 Why it is important for me to ask this question is because 467 00:24:47,730 --> 00:24:50,930 many of these first time transition kind of engineer. 468 00:24:50,970 --> 00:24:53,730 The first challenge is always to delegate, especially about 469 00:24:53,730 --> 00:24:55,810 coding, right? Because you always think that, 470 00:24:55,850 --> 00:25:00,410 OK, I can do it better myself. So maybe tell us more about the 471 00:25:00,410 --> 00:25:03,170 key of delegation, especially learning to let go. 472 00:25:04,090 --> 00:25:05,970 Yes, yeah. Delegation is one of the key 473 00:25:05,970 --> 00:25:09,050 skill set you have to learn as you move to any of the 474 00:25:09,050 --> 00:25:11,610 leadership roles and especially engineering management. 475 00:25:12,090 --> 00:25:15,130 So I think first and foremost I would say delegation is not 476 00:25:15,130 --> 00:25:18,130 about just assigning or allocating the task to someone. 477 00:25:18,490 --> 00:25:20,810 A lot of people, you know, kind of confuse it with that, that 478 00:25:21,170 --> 00:25:22,930 let's say I'm supposed to do tasky. 479 00:25:22,930 --> 00:25:26,250 I can just ask a person B to go and perform that task. 480 00:25:26,250 --> 00:25:30,530 No delegation is not that. Delegation in my head is a 481 00:25:30,530 --> 00:25:34,570 journey that you do together with the person that is the 482 00:25:34,570 --> 00:25:37,850 delegating or you know, whoever has been assigned that task. 483 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,000 And if you are the delegator, you need to make sure that the 484 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:46,600 task is clearly communicated in terms of what is expected and 485 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,520 what is the outcome that you're looking for. 486 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,280 At the same time, as I say, it's a partnership. 487 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:56,120 You have to provide them the right resources and the training 488 00:25:56,120 --> 00:26:00,720 material to put them up for success, because in the end you 489 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,040 are equally responsible for the outcome. 490 00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:07,080 It's not that once delegated, the outcome is no more related 491 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,170 to you. So that's where it's a key 492 00:26:09,170 --> 00:26:11,930 distinction between just allocating a task versus 493 00:26:11,930 --> 00:26:15,890 actually delegating a task. And a lot of times, Henry, the 494 00:26:15,890 --> 00:26:20,010 term comes right like, hey, effective delegation and that is 495 00:26:20,010 --> 00:26:23,530 what we are aiming for. So, yeah, So that's what I would 496 00:26:23,530 --> 00:26:26,030 say. And the biggest thing is to 497 00:26:26,110 --> 00:26:30,070 think about delegation as more of a coaching mindset instead of 498 00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:34,870 the doer mentality that most of the fresh engineers have there. 499 00:26:34,870 --> 00:26:38,510 As you mentioned, like, hey, I can do this code faster and so 500 00:26:38,510 --> 00:26:40,190 why not, you know, just do it myself. 501 00:26:40,590 --> 00:26:43,990 So it's not the idea about looking at that immediate task 502 00:26:43,990 --> 00:26:47,350 in hand, it's about teaching that to others. 503 00:26:47,430 --> 00:26:50,550 That way you can have like more of a multiplier effect for 504 00:26:50,550 --> 00:26:53,080 future. So yeah, I think that's a very, 505 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,480 very important things that you mentioned just now, right. 506 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:56,760 I like the way that you mentioned. 507 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,440 It's not just assigning tasks, right, delegating, it's not just 508 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,800 about, OK, I give you this task and please report back when you 509 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,240 have done or finish your work. So I think it's more about 510 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:07,480 setting the expectations. That's the first things I think 511 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,000 the outcomes, right, not necessarily the how. 512 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,920 So the people can figure out the how maybe they can do it better, 513 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,680 maybe they can do it in a more creative way. 514 00:27:15,680 --> 00:27:18,280 But if you set the expectation and the outcome right, I think 515 00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,240 that's really, really crucial for the effective delegation. 516 00:27:21,750 --> 00:27:24,550 And I think, yeah, you mentioned a very good important point that 517 00:27:24,590 --> 00:27:26,470 as a leader you are still accountable. 518 00:27:26,550 --> 00:27:30,150 You are not delegating that responsibility of the outcome to 519 00:27:30,150 --> 00:27:33,110 the person itself as well. So I think I really love that. 520 00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:37,230 So the other aspect of people that I want to discuss is about 521 00:27:37,230 --> 00:27:40,190 managing performance. Again, for first time manager, 522 00:27:40,430 --> 00:27:44,470 sometimes they are not expecting to do this, especially if they 523 00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:47,670 come from the same team. The people that they lead are 524 00:27:47,910 --> 00:27:51,570 previously friends or peers and now they have to manage people's 525 00:27:51,570 --> 00:27:54,490 performance. So maybe if you can touch on a 526 00:27:54,490 --> 00:27:56,730 little bit of important points about managing performance, 527 00:27:56,730 --> 00:27:59,850 especially for high performers and low performers and things 528 00:27:59,850 --> 00:28:01,450 like that. Yes. 529 00:28:01,610 --> 00:28:05,290 And I think managing performance is a very critical role as an 530 00:28:05,290 --> 00:28:08,310 engineering manager. And it really touches upon the 531 00:28:08,310 --> 00:28:11,390 whole people aspect that you're responsible for. 532 00:28:11,390 --> 00:28:14,870 So the way I would say is that managing performance, the 533 00:28:14,870 --> 00:28:17,990 biggest tools that you have in your hand is the one-on-one 534 00:28:17,990 --> 00:28:20,470 conversations that you have with your team members. 535 00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:24,350 So use those conversations to the fullest where your 536 00:28:24,350 --> 00:28:27,550 motivation as an EM should be to figure out what are their 537 00:28:27,550 --> 00:28:30,350 strengths and I won't say weaknesses, but more of like 538 00:28:30,350 --> 00:28:33,670 opportunities for growth and the aspirations they have in their 539 00:28:33,670 --> 00:28:36,360 career. Once you have that foundational 540 00:28:36,360 --> 00:28:40,280 knowledge, you can work with them to set up actionable goals. 541 00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:44,080 I usually use the SMART criteria which stands for specific, 542 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,560 measurable, actionable, relevant and time bound tasks. 543 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,280 So using that SMART framework to set up goals with your team 544 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,360 members and obviously doing checkpoints to have like a 545 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,200 constructive feedback mechanism. And that's most of the companies 546 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,160 as we've heard you know like performance reviews or mid year 547 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,640 check in. To kind of help and make sure 548 00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:08,360 everybody is on the right track and there's like a bidirectional 549 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:10,320 communication between both parties. 550 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,760 So that's the key we're using. The power of 1 on ones is 551 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:19,290 really, really crucial as an EM. The other point in terms of how 552 00:29:19,290 --> 00:29:22,530 do I identify whether it's a high performer or low performer, 553 00:29:22,530 --> 00:29:26,210 I think the main art here is to actually identify, you know, 554 00:29:26,210 --> 00:29:29,650 whether a particular performer is a high performer or a low 555 00:29:29,650 --> 00:29:33,650 performer And this is definitely a gradient can be sometimes 556 00:29:33,650 --> 00:29:36,610 subjective and that is what we have to caution against. 557 00:29:37,130 --> 00:29:41,610 Now, the biggest thing that we can use in this is the company's 558 00:29:41,610 --> 00:29:45,500 leveling guides. Which is what is a standard that 559 00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:49,420 is followed across your company. So that way there's no bias or 560 00:29:49,420 --> 00:29:52,740 favoritism happening in a particular organization versus 561 00:29:52,740 --> 00:29:55,260 or different organization within the same company. 562 00:29:55,420 --> 00:29:58,420 And for those who don't know what exactly is a company 563 00:29:58,420 --> 00:30:02,180 leveling guide, it could be more of like the competencies in a 564 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:05,660 particular job role that are essential or that kind of 565 00:30:05,660 --> 00:30:09,100 differentiate software developer one versus a senior software 566 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:11,660 developer two. So something on those lines 567 00:30:11,660 --> 00:30:14,300 where it can be? As simple as these are the 568 00:30:14,300 --> 00:30:18,540 technical competencies, dealing with ambiguity and having more 569 00:30:18,540 --> 00:30:22,980 experience with designs, technical designs, such a matrix 570 00:30:22,980 --> 00:30:27,340 can really help you understand where you are actually in that 571 00:30:27,340 --> 00:30:32,660 job role level and what is the gap that needs to be addressed 572 00:30:32,660 --> 00:30:34,380 for you to move to the next level. 573 00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,900 And that can really help differentiate whether someone is 574 00:30:37,980 --> 00:30:40,300 a high performer versus a low performer. 575 00:30:40,910 --> 00:30:44,550 And obviously once you identify that then there are different 576 00:30:44,550 --> 00:30:47,950 strategies to handle high performer for which you know you 577 00:30:47,950 --> 00:30:50,470 would like to keep them challenged because they are 578 00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:54,590 always craving for newer tasks and ambiguous tasks I would say. 579 00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:58,550 So providing them those opportunities and that is 580 00:30:58,550 --> 00:31:01,750 something you need for high performers and at the same time 581 00:31:01,750 --> 00:31:05,430 for low performers or underperformers, we really need 582 00:31:05,430 --> 00:31:07,300 to. Provide them the training 583 00:31:07,300 --> 00:31:09,540 resources to help them address that gap. 584 00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:13,580 Figure out what's the blocker, Is it some personal reasons that 585 00:31:13,580 --> 00:31:17,140 is keeping away from performing to the full potential or 586 00:31:17,140 --> 00:31:20,620 something at the work which obviously is in your hand and 587 00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:23,340 something you can change. So really acknowledging and 588 00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:26,940 identifying those and then working towards a road map to 589 00:31:26,940 --> 00:31:30,420 kind of address those gaps is the key, right? 590 00:31:30,620 --> 00:31:33,460 I really like the portion where you mentioned remove the bias, 591 00:31:33,460 --> 00:31:36,260 especially when you rate people's performance, right. 592 00:31:36,540 --> 00:31:39,100 So if you have leveling guide in your organization, please use 593 00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:42,700 that, don't use your subjective opinions or maybe you have a 594 00:31:42,700 --> 00:31:45,100 better relationship. Sometimes it works like that, 595 00:31:45,100 --> 00:31:47,020 right? So you have some wave rates in 596 00:31:47,020 --> 00:31:49,100 your team, right? You always go to this person, 597 00:31:49,420 --> 00:31:53,180 but try not to do that because it can create a very bad vibe 598 00:31:53,180 --> 00:31:55,180 within the team, right? And try to use the leveling 599 00:31:55,180 --> 00:31:57,100 guide. If you don't have leveling guide 600 00:31:57,220 --> 00:32:00,260 in your organization, I think it's important to maybe ask the 601 00:32:00,260 --> 00:32:03,700 question and try to raise the importance of having this 602 00:32:03,700 --> 00:32:05,420 leveling guide within the organization. 603 00:32:06,140 --> 00:32:08,460 Yeah, absolutely. Like having a leveling guide and 604 00:32:08,460 --> 00:32:12,140 you know, I know some of the small startups which do not have 605 00:32:12,140 --> 00:32:15,780 one, if you are a new EM in that company, it's a great 606 00:32:15,780 --> 00:32:18,980 opportunity for you to shine by helping set up something for 607 00:32:18,980 --> 00:32:21,580 your company. And another key point you know I 608 00:32:21,580 --> 00:32:24,580 would just call out here is the whole concept of adjusted 609 00:32:24,580 --> 00:32:27,510 expectations. Which I feel that is not 610 00:32:27,510 --> 00:32:31,150 something that is very well or openly talked about. 611 00:32:31,510 --> 00:32:34,030 Obviously as an EM you're setting these expectations with 612 00:32:34,030 --> 00:32:36,550 your engineers, you're following the leveling guide. 613 00:32:36,550 --> 00:32:40,870 But at the same time you can't expect someone who let's say 614 00:32:40,870 --> 00:32:45,470 just had a baby missing for four months on maternity leave to end 615 00:32:45,470 --> 00:32:49,190 of the year have the same set of outcome or output as somebody 616 00:32:49,190 --> 00:32:52,790 who was here for the 12 months. So you know, just a nuance that 617 00:32:53,030 --> 00:32:55,590 we don't openly talk about it and. 618 00:32:55,790 --> 00:32:59,590 Really, some of the companies acknowledge this concept, but if 619 00:32:59,590 --> 00:33:02,550 you are setting up something for your company, definitely keep 620 00:33:02,550 --> 00:33:04,830 these adjusted expectations in mind. 621 00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:08,030 In the end, we are all human and you know the whole idea of 622 00:33:08,030 --> 00:33:10,150 having that empathy is really important. 623 00:33:11,290 --> 00:33:13,370 Thanks for the plug. So I think this is a good 624 00:33:13,370 --> 00:33:15,250 concept, right? Adjusted expectation. 625 00:33:15,250 --> 00:33:18,290 Don't treat everyone the same, especially if they have breaks 626 00:33:18,290 --> 00:33:21,330 in between maybe because of maternity or paternity, right? 627 00:33:21,650 --> 00:33:24,530 Or maybe because of sick leave or something like that. 628 00:33:24,530 --> 00:33:26,690 So try to adjust the expectations as well. 629 00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:29,890 So let's move on to the next pillar which is the project. 630 00:33:30,090 --> 00:33:33,330 So one thing that I want to discuss here is about cross 631 00:33:33,330 --> 00:33:35,690 functional kind of a collaboration because most of 632 00:33:35,690 --> 00:33:38,960 the times when you work in software engineering teams, it's 633 00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:41,440 not often that you will work just by your own team, right, 634 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:43,440 within your own team. So you always have to 635 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,720 collaborate and cooperate with other teams. 636 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:50,040 I found one important quote that I think you took it from HBR, 637 00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:51,760 right? It's like there's a statistic 638 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:54,280 saying that 75% of cross functional teams are 639 00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:57,080 dysfunctional. Knowing about this fact or what 640 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,400 would be some of your tips or insights for engineering 641 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,480 managers here to think about when they collaborate cross 642 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,920 functionally? Yes, great point Henry and. 643 00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:09,810 You know something that I have faced myself working as being 644 00:34:09,810 --> 00:34:13,449 part of different organizations when it comes to collaborating 645 00:34:13,449 --> 00:34:14,929 with the cross functional partners? 646 00:34:14,929 --> 00:34:18,170 Of course you need to acknowledge what is important 647 00:34:18,170 --> 00:34:20,730 for them, right? Sometimes we forget that if we 648 00:34:20,730 --> 00:34:22,690 were in their shoes, how would we react? 649 00:34:23,150 --> 00:34:26,110 So that is really important to understand where is the other 650 00:34:26,110 --> 00:34:29,110 person coming from now, whether you're talking to your project 651 00:34:29,110 --> 00:34:31,590 manager or whether you're talking to your technical 652 00:34:31,750 --> 00:34:35,469 program manager. So effective communication and 653 00:34:35,469 --> 00:34:39,469 coordination is the key here, where you need to be very clear 654 00:34:39,469 --> 00:34:42,590 with what are your goals. Obviously when I say your, it's 655 00:34:42,630 --> 00:34:44,960 like your team's goals. And you know, what is the 656 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,800 expectation there? A lot of times you will face 657 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,280 competing priorities in any organization where roadmap for 658 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,200 your team might not be In Sync with the roadmap of the other 659 00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,120 team. And that's where the power of 660 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,200 negotiations come into picture, where obviously you go ahead, 661 00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:06,320 you negotiate, you figure out if. 662 00:35:06,770 --> 00:35:09,970 You know, maybe sending your engineer on a loan to another 663 00:35:09,970 --> 00:35:13,130 team could help them with their road map and at the same time 664 00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:16,530 helps you move the needle in your own road map. 665 00:35:16,530 --> 00:35:19,890 So being open to those negotiations and having that 666 00:35:19,890 --> 00:35:22,250 candid conversation kind of really helps. 667 00:35:22,850 --> 00:35:27,850 Another thing is to be really, really transparent about what is 668 00:35:27,850 --> 00:35:30,410 expected. Don't assume things. 669 00:35:30,730 --> 00:35:34,170 It's always good to have that discussion and clear out any 670 00:35:34,170 --> 00:35:36,210 ambiguous thoughts that one might have. 671 00:35:36,660 --> 00:35:40,060 I read about this concept called Anima Washi. 672 00:35:40,260 --> 00:35:43,420 As far as I remember it's like a Japanese term that kind of talks 673 00:35:43,420 --> 00:35:45,580 about that. As you work with cross 674 00:35:45,580 --> 00:35:48,580 functional partners, sometimes it is important to set the 675 00:35:48,580 --> 00:35:52,700 foundation of what is expected. So maybe individually talking to 676 00:35:52,700 --> 00:35:57,040 the different stakeholders. And ensuring that we are all on 677 00:35:57,040 --> 00:36:00,520 the same page in terms of these are the resources we have, these 678 00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,400 are the time constraints and this is the outcome that we're 679 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,760 looking for. So I really found that concept 680 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,680 interesting and I just mentioning for those who want to 681 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,440 read about it. But yeah, I think that's the key 682 00:36:11,440 --> 00:36:13,960 in terms of working with cross functional partners is to 683 00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:17,320 acknowledge the competing priorities, be open to 684 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,360 negotiations and being, you know, an effective communicator 685 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:21,960 and collaborator. Right. 686 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,920 I haven't heard about this term animal washi, so I'll make sure 687 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:27,560 to put in the show notes. So maybe I will learn myself as 688 00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:29,880 well and for people to learn more about this concept. 689 00:36:30,240 --> 00:36:33,160 And I think it's very important. Yeah, you mentioned a few 690 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:34,680 challenges that I can see, right? 691 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,960 The road map's not In Sync because they are two different 692 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:40,000 teams and sometimes, you know either the priorities are not In 693 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,400 Sync or just the timeline is not sync right. 694 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:44,480 Because work in parallel. You always have these kind of 695 00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:47,670 challenges and sometimes you also have crunch time right, 696 00:36:47,670 --> 00:36:50,150 where you are busy delivering something, but hey, somebody 697 00:36:50,150 --> 00:36:53,270 just comes asking you to help them do something and it's 698 00:36:53,270 --> 00:36:56,150 always clear to make it transparent, like you want to 699 00:36:56,150 --> 00:36:58,070 help them. But sometimes there are issues 700 00:36:58,070 --> 00:37:01,870 that you couldn't, for example, prioritize their ask versus what 701 00:37:01,870 --> 00:37:04,150 you have to deliver, right? And I think the last point that 702 00:37:04,150 --> 00:37:06,390 I want to touch, which you mentioned in the beginning about 703 00:37:06,390 --> 00:37:08,910 the people aspect is the empathy of the emotional aspect. 704 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,840 So expect that there will be tough negotiations, people 705 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,280 pushing you about stars, right? And always keep that in a 706 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:17,720 positive manner, I would say, rather than make it like a 707 00:37:17,720 --> 00:37:19,600 tension. So I think that's really, really 708 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,240 important. So let's move on to the next 709 00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:23,760 pillar, which is about the process. 710 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,160 I think here what is the most important thing I want to ask is 711 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:30,320 how can an engineering manager set up a good process within 712 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,160 their team, especially knowing that there are so many best 713 00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,680 practices, there are so many things, right, maybe unique 714 00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,440 within the team themselves. Is there any kind of, I don't 715 00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:42,440 know, like a best recipe of how they should set up a process 716 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,880 within their team? Yes, I think the best recipe is 717 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:48,520 first of all to understand what's the problem in the team, 718 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,760 right? You cannot find a solution until 719 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,520 you, you know, identify what is it that's going wrong. 720 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,880 So I think first and foremost, it's important to understand 721 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,500 where the gap is. And once you identify that, I'm 722 00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:05,180 a big believer in getting your team together, so more of like a 723 00:38:05,220 --> 00:38:08,500 democratic leadership style where you get everybody in the 724 00:38:08,500 --> 00:38:12,020 team together, have those open brainstorming sessions in terms 725 00:38:12,020 --> 00:38:14,940 of, hey, this is how we've been working so far. 726 00:38:15,220 --> 00:38:18,580 This is the output, what are the ways we can try? 727 00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:21,820 And mind you that nothing is a oneway door. 728 00:38:21,820 --> 00:38:26,020 You can always pilot few things within the team and try them out 729 00:38:26,020 --> 00:38:27,940 and see what works and what doesn't work. 730 00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:32,500 At one point in my team we used to have a lot of code reviews 731 00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:34,540 that would stay in pending for quite long. 732 00:38:35,020 --> 00:38:38,100 So I got the team together in one of the stand up. 733 00:38:38,100 --> 00:38:42,140 We brought up this whole problem statement and we decided that 734 00:38:42,140 --> 00:38:45,860 maybe what we can do is as part of stand up call out like hey I 735 00:38:45,860 --> 00:38:49,220 have this code review pending and any volunteers for it. 736 00:38:49,460 --> 00:38:51,860 So in that way you're not sitting open-ended. 737 00:38:51,940 --> 00:38:55,220 Let's say you need a ship IT or a acceptance from two people. 738 00:38:55,580 --> 00:38:58,180 You're not sitting in ambiguity. Who are the two people looking 739 00:38:58,180 --> 00:39:00,500 at? It within the stand up itself 2 740 00:39:00,500 --> 00:39:03,860 volunteers have stepped up or maybe you know have been forced 741 00:39:03,860 --> 00:39:07,740 volunteer to kind of look into those code reviews and that way 742 00:39:07,740 --> 00:39:10,580 there is more targeted thing in terms of you know what's going 743 00:39:10,580 --> 00:39:13,780 to happen. Eventually the team learned it 744 00:39:14,020 --> 00:39:16,060 and no more we had to kind of do it. 745 00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:19,900 This wasn't a big process as such, but something that really 746 00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:23,620 helped us set a good habit of making sure we are on top of our 747 00:39:23,620 --> 00:39:26,020 code reviews. So I would say starting with 748 00:39:26,020 --> 00:39:29,690 identifying the problem. Getting the people together to 749 00:39:29,690 --> 00:39:32,970 solve the problem because that way they feel they are more 750 00:39:32,970 --> 00:39:34,810 heard and are part of the process. 751 00:39:35,250 --> 00:39:37,890 And then obviously evaluating if it worked or not. 752 00:39:37,890 --> 00:39:41,010 And you can always, you know, iterate back and brainstorm 753 00:39:41,010 --> 00:39:44,290 again to Step 2. Yeah, it's always important to 754 00:39:44,490 --> 00:39:46,810 include the people to come up with the solutions, right? 755 00:39:46,850 --> 00:39:49,890 Find the problems together and also come up with the solutions 756 00:39:49,890 --> 00:39:52,010 together, right? Again, the manager here doesn't 757 00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:55,170 mean the only person who can come up with solutions and try 758 00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:58,010 to improve the process, right? Everyone should be responsible 759 00:39:58,010 --> 00:39:59,970 to improve the process within the team. 760 00:40:00,330 --> 00:40:03,730 So one part of the process that I always find interesting 761 00:40:03,730 --> 00:40:06,690 because many times engineering manager have to report to their 762 00:40:06,690 --> 00:40:09,490 leaders, right? So could be CTO, could be VP of 763 00:40:09,490 --> 00:40:10,930 Engineers and so on and so forth. 764 00:40:11,090 --> 00:40:14,530 So what will be some of the good things about the process aspect 765 00:40:14,530 --> 00:40:17,890 that you think will be good for them to report back to the top 766 00:40:17,890 --> 00:40:19,130 leaders? Top management? 767 00:40:20,050 --> 00:40:22,010 Yes. Obviously, you know what have to 768 00:40:22,010 --> 00:40:24,810 be reported kind of depends, right, whether it's like some 769 00:40:24,810 --> 00:40:28,570 sort of team metrics versus visibility into the progress of 770 00:40:28,570 --> 00:40:31,930 a project. But I think the key tenets here 771 00:40:31,930 --> 00:40:35,890 is to maintain that level of transparency with the leadership 772 00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:39,330 in terms of what's happening. And even if there's a risk or a 773 00:40:39,330 --> 00:40:43,530 blocker, call that out early so that you can get help on it in a 774 00:40:43,530 --> 00:40:48,130 timely manner and whether it's like you need more resources or 775 00:40:48,170 --> 00:40:51,330 a change in the strategy. So I think transparency is the 776 00:40:51,330 --> 00:40:53,770 biggest when it comes to transparency. 777 00:40:53,770 --> 00:40:56,050 The idea is to make sure you have the right reporting in 778 00:40:56,050 --> 00:41:00,210 place or some dashboards. You cannot go and dump a lot of 779 00:41:00,210 --> 00:41:02,130 technical knowledge to the leadership team. 780 00:41:02,290 --> 00:41:04,610 Now, I'm not saying that our leaders are not technically 781 00:41:04,610 --> 00:41:07,130 sound. It's just that they are into way 782 00:41:07,130 --> 00:41:09,610 too many things. So we need to be cognizant of 783 00:41:09,610 --> 00:41:12,290 their time. And so keeping it at a high 784 00:41:12,290 --> 00:41:15,610 level and if they want to drill down further, they can always do 785 00:41:15,610 --> 00:41:17,930 that. But keeping a high level reports 786 00:41:17,930 --> 00:41:21,850 that kind of give them a 360 degree purview of what's 787 00:41:21,850 --> 00:41:25,410 happening, what's working well and where are the blockers. 788 00:41:25,610 --> 00:41:28,650 I think that would really help them to not just gain the 789 00:41:28,650 --> 00:41:32,210 visibility but also help your team if you need any support 790 00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:35,010 from the leadership. So yes, transparency I would 791 00:41:35,010 --> 00:41:37,170 think is the biggest and you know how you bring that. 792 00:41:37,170 --> 00:41:39,620 Transparency is the key. Right. 793 00:41:39,660 --> 00:41:42,060 Thanks for including that transparency aspect. 794 00:41:42,060 --> 00:41:43,380 Again. I think it's very important, 795 00:41:43,380 --> 00:41:44,780 right? Set the expectations right, 796 00:41:44,780 --> 00:41:47,620 knowing what the leaders want as well and try to deliver the 797 00:41:47,620 --> 00:41:50,860 reports and all the dashboards that you think best will give 798 00:41:50,860 --> 00:41:53,340 them the information and raise the risk early. 799 00:41:53,340 --> 00:41:54,980 It's always a very, very important right. 800 00:41:54,980 --> 00:41:58,180 Don't risk late when it's close to being a disaster or an 801 00:41:58,180 --> 00:42:00,980 incident, right. So try to raise it earlier if 802 00:42:00,980 --> 00:42:04,150 you can. So another part about process 803 00:42:04,150 --> 00:42:07,590 that I think many maybe first time manager also struggle A lot 804 00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:10,630 is about time management and especially if they started from 805 00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:14,430 engineer role where most of the day they are just coding right, 806 00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:17,910 spending time alone and doing a lot of productive work, focused 807 00:42:17,910 --> 00:42:20,030 time. But now in management role they 808 00:42:20,030 --> 00:42:23,110 need to do a lot of meetings, a lot of communication, maybe 809 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:26,230 writing stuff. What is the key for effective 810 00:42:26,230 --> 00:42:28,590 time management. I think this is also something 811 00:42:28,590 --> 00:42:30,970 that many people want to learn, yes. 812 00:42:31,010 --> 00:42:34,970 And I think time management is such a puzzle that I would not 813 00:42:34,970 --> 00:42:37,330 say that even after working for these years I have still 814 00:42:37,330 --> 00:42:39,130 mastered that. So I'm still learning. 815 00:42:39,410 --> 00:42:42,170 But what I can share are the few things that I have been trying 816 00:42:42,170 --> 00:42:44,450 to do. To manage my time effectively. 817 00:42:44,810 --> 00:42:47,850 First and foremost is like decluttering my calendar being 818 00:42:47,850 --> 00:42:50,770 an EMI get tons and tons of meeting invites. 819 00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:55,540 So it is really important for me to segregate see if it's more of 820 00:42:55,540 --> 00:42:58,980 like a physical presence that this meeting has versus more of 821 00:42:59,020 --> 00:43:02,220 like how can I actually contribute if I have to attend 822 00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:05,900 that meeting and if it's of no use then like politely 823 00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:09,380 responding to the e-mail and keeping the calendar neat and 824 00:43:09,380 --> 00:43:13,700 clean I would say. And as a EM, you do need time to 825 00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:15,900 do your tasks right a lot of times. 826 00:43:15,900 --> 00:43:18,820 And what I have found is I would start with you know, To Do List 827 00:43:19,140 --> 00:43:21,260 over the day. I attend meetings and my school 828 00:43:21,260 --> 00:43:25,220 list just increases and the day just gets over and have not 829 00:43:25,220 --> 00:43:29,700 actually done work. So it's important to block some 830 00:43:29,700 --> 00:43:32,540 focus work hours for yourself during the week. 831 00:43:32,940 --> 00:43:36,460 I usually do like 2 hour blocks whenever possible and you know, 832 00:43:36,460 --> 00:43:39,660 obviously try to reject meetings if they fall into that. 833 00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:43,900 So yeah, keeping time for yourself to actually do work is 834 00:43:43,900 --> 00:43:46,690 really important. Another practice that I have 835 00:43:46,690 --> 00:43:49,850 tried to follow in my teams is the meeting Bill of Rights, 836 00:43:49,850 --> 00:43:54,330 where don't entertain a meeting, which is just like sync up or 837 00:43:54,530 --> 00:43:57,890 project status, right. Really someone who is sending 838 00:43:57,890 --> 00:44:01,610 out an invite should give you some sort of agenda in terms of 839 00:44:01,610 --> 00:44:04,450 you know what is expected out of that meeting, what's the input 840 00:44:04,450 --> 00:44:07,290 that we are going with and what is the expected outcome. 841 00:44:07,610 --> 00:44:11,450 And that also ties well to the first point, which is for you to 842 00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:14,090 take an informed decision whether you are actually needed 843 00:44:14,090 --> 00:44:17,410 in that meeting or not. So following this habit really 844 00:44:17,410 --> 00:44:20,730 helped also remove some of the duplicate meetings that we had 845 00:44:21,010 --> 00:44:23,490 where we found out that while we were setting the agenda, you 846 00:44:23,490 --> 00:44:25,930 know, it's kind of the same thing that we are repeating with 847 00:44:25,930 --> 00:44:28,290 a different set of audience. So that's one. 848 00:44:28,690 --> 00:44:32,330 And another nugget that I will throw out is the Pomodoro 849 00:44:32,330 --> 00:44:35,090 technique. If people have heard about it. 850 00:44:35,170 --> 00:44:38,770 Basically, you know, in simple terms it just says you work for 851 00:44:39,250 --> 00:44:43,520 XX minutes and then you kind of take break, recharge and then 852 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:46,680 work again. So a subset of that what I have 853 00:44:46,680 --> 00:44:49,960 followed in my teams is instead of setting a 30 minute meeting, 854 00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:53,800 send a 25 minute meeting invite so that people always have a 5 855 00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:57,040 minute breather to catch to take a restroom break, grab some 856 00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,640 water or like just you know even stretch at their seat. 857 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,540 So that's another concept that can really help you manage your 858 00:45:04,540 --> 00:45:08,380 time and at least feel better physically and from that health 859 00:45:08,380 --> 00:45:11,140 perspective as well. So I think these are the key 860 00:45:11,140 --> 00:45:13,100 Nuggets. But at the same time, you know 861 00:45:13,100 --> 00:45:15,820 this. I do acknowledge that there is 862 00:45:15,820 --> 00:45:18,700 no silver bullet solution to time management as an EM. 863 00:45:19,020 --> 00:45:24,010 Keep a priority list and always make sure and yeah, you know, we 864 00:45:24,010 --> 00:45:26,530 discussed about delegation. Use the power of delegation 865 00:45:26,530 --> 00:45:29,250 wherever possible. Where someone from your team is 866 00:45:29,250 --> 00:45:32,410 better suited to go attend a meeting, you can always, you 867 00:45:32,410 --> 00:45:34,730 know, do that. Yeah, the key is always 868 00:45:34,730 --> 00:45:36,970 prioritization, right? Sometimes also saying no. 869 00:45:36,970 --> 00:45:39,690 So if you're invited to multiple meetings, sometimes you are 870 00:45:39,690 --> 00:45:41,730 asked to help, right? Sometimes you have to. 871 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,600 Maybe assess yourself whether you have the capacity or maybe 872 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,040 you have some people to delegate to, right? 873 00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,160 If not then maybe you can politely say no. 874 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,960 I was intrigued when you mentioned in the beginning when 875 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,720 you describe about this time management is that you have A to 876 00:45:55,720 --> 00:45:58,400 do list that is growing and ever growing right? 877 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:00,880 It can never finish. So what will be your personal 878 00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,600 tips how to handle that? Because it cannot continue on 879 00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,950 and on, right for sure. So I think I'll like as you 880 00:46:06,950 --> 00:46:10,670 mentioned you know the priority obviously every day the priority 881 00:46:10,670 --> 00:46:13,070 might change. So keeping that To Do List in a 882 00:46:13,070 --> 00:46:15,030 priority manner could really help. 883 00:46:15,470 --> 00:46:18,590 And if there is something that needs immediate attention, so 884 00:46:18,590 --> 00:46:22,950 obviously you look into that and then use delegation to move some 885 00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:24,990 of the tasks which others can do. 886 00:46:25,230 --> 00:46:27,630 And at the same time you know we need to keep a mindset that 887 00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:30,070 those are also growth opportunities for others. 888 00:46:30,070 --> 00:46:33,070 It's not like you are just moving things out of your plate 889 00:46:33,070 --> 00:46:35,530 to others. You are actually providing those 890 00:46:35,530 --> 00:46:37,690 growth opportunities to other members in your team. 891 00:46:37,690 --> 00:46:40,330 So you know it's a win win situation both ends. 892 00:46:40,570 --> 00:46:44,810 Keeping those things in mind can really help you effectively 893 00:46:44,890 --> 00:46:48,730 manage your To Do List. But yeah, I will be very candid 894 00:46:48,730 --> 00:46:51,930 that there have been times where you know on a Friday I would log 895 00:46:51,930 --> 00:46:54,810 in two hours earlier just to get through that To Do List. 896 00:46:55,090 --> 00:46:58,290 So yeah, I'm still learning and if you or others who are 897 00:46:58,290 --> 00:47:01,690 listening to us have some tips, would love to hear their tips as 898 00:47:01,690 --> 00:47:04,100 well how they manage time. Right. 899 00:47:04,220 --> 00:47:07,020 I think this is a topic that is always an Evergreen, right. 900 00:47:07,020 --> 00:47:09,820 So I think nobody can find a perfect solution. 901 00:47:09,820 --> 00:47:11,660 And I think it's also contextual, right? 902 00:47:11,660 --> 00:47:13,300 Different people have different preference. 903 00:47:13,540 --> 00:47:15,660 Sometimes you have a productivity technique that work 904 00:47:15,660 --> 00:47:18,180 for one person may not work for the others. 905 00:47:18,380 --> 00:47:20,940 So I think my key tips will be find something that works for 906 00:47:20,940 --> 00:47:22,740 you, right? There's so many productivity 907 00:47:22,740 --> 00:47:25,220 techniques and tips out there. Find something that resonate 908 00:47:25,220 --> 00:47:27,580 with you and that's really, really work well for you. 909 00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:32,510 So I think we cover a lot right from the basics of an EM and the 910 00:47:32,550 --> 00:47:34,510 three key pillars. And as we wrap up the 911 00:47:34,510 --> 00:47:37,790 conversation, I have one last question that I want to ask you, 912 00:47:37,790 --> 00:47:39,990 especially related to this engineering management 913 00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:42,950 discussion that we just had. So my question is called the 914 00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:44,430 three technical leadership wisdom. 915 00:47:44,670 --> 00:47:47,070 You can think of it just like an advice maybe from your 916 00:47:47,070 --> 00:47:48,710 experience, your expertise, right. 917 00:47:48,710 --> 00:47:51,670 So what will be the three key wisdom that you want to share 918 00:47:51,670 --> 00:47:53,950 with all of us here? Sure. 919 00:47:54,030 --> 00:47:58,010 So I think the first would be dream big. 920 00:47:58,250 --> 00:48:00,930 I feel that that is really important, right? 921 00:48:00,930 --> 00:48:04,130 We get into this rat race sometimes and its more of like 922 00:48:04,130 --> 00:48:07,050 what others are doing and we try to mimic that. 923 00:48:07,130 --> 00:48:10,130 It is really important to understand where do we, you 924 00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:12,770 know, a lot of people ask that in interview question, where do 925 00:48:12,770 --> 00:48:14,570 you want to see yourself in five years? 926 00:48:15,120 --> 00:48:19,160 You should be the one defining that and it's OK to dream big. 927 00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,720 You might not get 100% of it, but at least you will have a 928 00:48:22,720 --> 00:48:26,840 high level framework or a road map to kind of try towards it. 929 00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,560 So I think that would be my first advice. 930 00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,960 My second would be find a mentor or a sponsor. 931 00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,970 Now I know a lot of people shy away from this thing, at least 932 00:48:37,970 --> 00:48:40,810 in my personal life. I feel like having the mentors 933 00:48:40,810 --> 00:48:45,170 has really helped me all the way when I was a freshman all the 934 00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:47,690 way. Even now I have mentors within 935 00:48:47,690 --> 00:48:51,290 the organization and outside organization to kinda help guide 936 00:48:51,290 --> 00:48:54,890 me in my career, suggest me resources that can help upskill 937 00:48:54,890 --> 00:48:57,730 me. So having that mentor is really 938 00:48:57,730 --> 00:48:59,970 important. So I think that would be my 939 00:48:59,970 --> 00:49:03,770 second piece of advice. And my third piece of advice 940 00:49:03,770 --> 00:49:07,230 would be don't shy away from this whole concept of 941 00:49:07,230 --> 00:49:09,550 delegation. I feel it's really, really 942 00:49:09,550 --> 00:49:12,950 important. As you grow in your career, you 943 00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:17,630 really want to scale yourself and your teams, so getting that 944 00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:21,070 art earlier in your hand and honing that can really help you 945 00:49:21,070 --> 00:49:24,160 to scale well. I think spoken just like a true 946 00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:25,080 EM, right? Delegate. 947 00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:28,240 Well, delegate effectively, but don't forget to dream big as 948 00:49:28,240 --> 00:49:30,320 well, right? I think sometimes we shy away 949 00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:33,280 from trying to achieve what we always dream about. 950 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:36,280 But I think the key thing is maybe setting a direction where 951 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,880 you want to go and try to achieve that milestone over 952 00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:40,680 milestone. She doesn't have to come all in 953 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,920 one day, right? So I think thanks for sharing 954 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,080 that piece of wisdom. So Akansha, thank you so much 955 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:48,800 for this discussion. If people love the conversation 956 00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:51,560 and want to reach out and ask you about stuff about 957 00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,920 engineering management, maybe is there a place where they can 958 00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,240 find you online? Absolutely. 959 00:49:56,240 --> 00:49:59,320 So. I am an active LinkedIn user, so 960 00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,720 I can share my LinkedIn profile and people can reach out to me 961 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:04,480 through LinkedIn. Thanks for that. 962 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:06,040 I will put that in the show notes as well. 963 00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,280 So thank you so much, Akansha for your sharing today. 964 00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:10,760 So I really learned a lot about engineering management as well. 965 00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,420 So thank you for that. Yep. 966 00:50:12,540 --> 00:50:14,100 Thank you so much Henry, for having me. 967 00:50:14,100 --> 00:50:17,300 This was really insightful and you know, I loved our super 968 00:50:17,300 --> 00:50:21,300 candid discussion and all the best to everyone listening out. 969 00:50:21,420 --> 00:50:27,180 And yeah. Thank you for listening to this 970 00:50:27,180 --> 00:50:29,580 episode and for staying right until the end. 971 00:50:29,940 --> 00:50:33,100 If you highly enjoyed it, I would appreciate if you share it 972 00:50:33,100 --> 00:50:36,100 with your friends and colleagues who you think would also benefit 973 00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:38,860 from listening to this episode and if you're new to the 974 00:50:38,860 --> 00:50:41,090 podcast. Make sure to subscribe and leave 975 00:50:41,090 --> 00:50:43,130 me your valuable review and feedback. 976 00:50:43,490 --> 00:50:46,370 It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. 977 00:50:46,850 --> 00:50:49,770 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 978 00:50:49,770 --> 00:50:52,730 the episode page at Tech Lead journal dot dev website, 979 00:50:53,050 --> 00:50:56,650 including the full transcript, interesting quotes, and links to 980 00:50:56,650 --> 00:50:59,050 the resources mentioned from the conversation. 981 00:50:59,450 --> 00:51:02,530 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 982 00:51:02,530 --> 00:51:05,930 list on tech lead journal dot def to get notified for any 983 00:51:05,930 --> 00:51:08,600 future episodes. Stay tuned for the next 984 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,880 Technically Juno episode, and until then, goodbye.