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Welcome back to another episode of the Tecla Journal podcast.
I'm your host Henry Surya without one.
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to continue producing. Great content every week for
today's episode. I am happy to share my
conversation with Julian Du Bois.
Julian is the creator of jail hipster, a popular open source
development platform, that helps you to build beautiful and
modern web applications. He currently manages the Java
developer. Advocacy team at Microsoft in
this episode Julian shared about the state of Javed option for
cloud native applications as well as Java adoption Within
Microsoft. And as your ecosystem Julian
also, shared history on how he started Jay hipster.
Some of the highlights of running it as a successful open
source project and he also shared about his developer.
Advocacy work at Microsoft and why he thinks developer
Advocates need to be independent in their advocacy work in order
to gain the trust and credibility from the people and
ultimately create the best product for the market.
And for those of you who want to learn from Julian on how He
successfully created and ran J. Hipster, Julian also shared some
tips on how we can run a successful open source project.
I enjoyed my conversation with Julian learning from him and his
J, hipster story, and I hope that you will enjoy this episode
as well. Consider helping the show by
living at the rating review or comment on your podcast app, or
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Molly. Sinners.
And hopefully, they can also benefit from all the contents in
this podcast. So let's get this episode
started right away. Hey everyone, welcome back to
another new episode of the peclet journal.
Today, I have with me, someone who is a Java champion and also
the creator of a famous open source project called J hipster.
For those of you, who knows about Java technology and a
hipster. Maybe you have used this
popular, open source software. My guess is called Julian Duval.
Very pleased to have a chance to meet you and actually talk to
you about your career and everything around Java and J
hipster. So, welcome to the show Julian.
Well, I think sure. I'm very honored to be invited
to your show and very happy to share a little bit of what I
know with your audience. Thank you.
So Julian, maybe in the beginning.
Can you introduce yourself and telling us more about your
career? Maybe, some highlights or
turning points in your career? Yes.
I'm Junior Dubois. I'm French.
That's why I go to cinema. This weird name.
I've been Working with Java for a bit more than 20 years.
So I've done many things with Java just to tell two of three
of the highlights of my career's by were two broken spring.
I worked at Springs or some of the company which created and
led the spring. In fact, I manage a French
subsidiary of spring Source, but 10 years ago.
Now I created that open source project that you talked about
which is called Jeepster, which is very popular.
So I created that about seven years ago jib Stars grow in the
Lord and To bust spring Suzanne Jeepster.
I dot I add two years ago by Microsoft.
So now I work in the drop of OKC team at Microsoft and Amanda
manager of the chatter team in the Republic is at Microsoft.
So yeah, three lights springsource Jeepster and
Microsoft will last thing that you mentioned because it don't
often talk about this. But yeah, I have much of a
champion. So I was actually the job a
champion and to wear like maybe four years ago since to
Jeepster. Java.
Jumping is very interesting and I active Committee of people
pushing Java. I don't know which options are
know maybe 300, something like this.
So it's a very nice group of people from different companies
were all pushing Java forward. So I'm very happy to be part of
them. I would say, unfortunately, I
don't but spits at much into our Champions today because I've got
my work life at Microsoft and also my open source life with
Jeepster so that leaves little time for doing even more stuff.
But I mean, from time to time while yesterday's, but when Noah
was a champion because it's a chocolate, so it happens
sometimes. Join, Java.
I will look it's a good group of people that put you open.
If you want to join the group, you need to be elected.
So it's a bit more complicated to be elected.
But still, you know, it's not because you're not have a
champion that those people will not talk with you.
So I encourage you to have a look at this group.
It's on Twitter, the very active and very interesting.
I would say pushing each other forward and without too much
marketing. No, it's not owned by Oracle
Oracle is managing it, but you can't be a diva champion.
If you're a member of Oracle, when you are selected, you need
to show that you are independent.
And I'm open-minded. So if you don't like Oracle
Technologies, that's perfect. That's in fact what they are
looking for, but that's something that we can talk maybe
more. So in the end when we dealt with
leadership as where that vehicle sees it, and something from
Microsoft also for my job is they won't we have a very
diverse opinions, including negative opinions?
Because that's how you go. That's how you progress is
because you have people telling you.
Well that's bad. You shouldn't do it that way
because if you have only clones and everybody thinks the same
well, then you don't move forward and also you have no
credibility. One of the That they love to do
at Microsoft that I can say that.
You know, this part of java at Microsoft isn't really good.
And when I say this people, then trust me when I say that other
things are working well, because they know that I can say.
When something is bad, you have a lot more credibility when you
are independent and when you can talk freely about the tool.
So that's why, when I say that I love this specific, Microsoft
product. They know I love it for real
because if I didn't love it, I wouldn't tell it.
So in the first place, seems like a very interesting, mix
Microsoft and Java Technologies. Can you share?
Are specifically because Microsoft normally is well-known
for dotnet, which is the competing technology for Java.
So what is up in Microsoft these days?
And why are you specifically focusing on Java at Microsoft?
So Microsoft has a room and bumpy is to be with Java.
Currently. There is a huge push for job at
Microsoft, but it's even more than that some years ago.
Like Microsoft, where the new CEO Satya Nadella, we still see
you today. And you like totally open up the
company decided to say things, like your Microsoft loves Linux,
which Wasn't the case before, Microsoft is much more open and
the objective is to have every people and including every
developers be more productive. Thanks to Microsoft
Technologies. Microsoft has always been about
productivity tools. Of course, if you look at all
the developers in the world, as a lot of people using Linux,
lots of people using Java. So, Microsoft is not locked
anymore. Are just doing like Windows and
the net because it's truly meeting for the goal of
Microsoft. So, there has been this
openness, which has been there. For several years for Java.
It's bit more recent. I don't know when it started
exactly. But I would say about four or
five years ago. We had much of a Champions on
Microsoft today. I think with 13 Java Champions
at Microsoft. So Microsoft have been iRacing.
A lot of people who watch our Champions or so has been hearing
a lot of very good job of people who then became July Champions
thankful their work at Microsoft.
Basically, we want to have Java developers love Microsoft and
for that we need to have an investment in tooling and
productivity and software for Java developers.
So if you So bloated, look at what Microsoft offers we have
IDs, we've got great Java, support indigenous geocode.
We've got Azure. I'm working in Asia.
So, of course, on our journey, would we get?
Josh, can deploy your Java apps can deploy your spring with art
on as you, it's fully supported. We've got a Java SDK and very
good Java SDK on Azure. And also we've got a lot of
other Microsoft services that people might know, but don't
think about, which are better than Java.
Minecraft is using Java LinkedIn is using Java.
All those are Microsoft subsidiaries.
So we've got a lot of java. Developers inside, Microsoft, or
unless I forgot, we're also using a lot of java internally
inside. As your, for example, when you
use Azure such a huge task, a cluster, and this is winning on
Java. So we've got GM's and Java.
Engine is everywhere. So today's as a huge investment
in job at Microsoft. It has maybe Community exists
here because we announce that we've got our own build of
openjdk. So know, you can run the
Microsoft belief openjdk, which is maintained and supported by
Microsoft. It's a true openjdk build did It
is that it's built and supported by us.
And that means that when you run Java on Azure, we can guarantee
that we support everything and we patch everything and we
update, it wasn't for you. You talked about dotnet, you've
got a similar experience with Java, you got something which is
fully supporting from the hardware to the GM.
Everything is fully supported and patched by Microsoft.
As the end User. It's a combination where you can
trust that everything will be secured and robeast for you.
So you mentioned that you are currently working with Java and
Azurite the combination of java. And Cloud, so we know that in
the past few years. Java was not really well known
for being the language of choice.
To be deployed on the call simply because of, maybe it's
heavyweight. It took time to bootstrap and
having memory and things like that.
So what's the current state of usage of Java for like Cloud,
native applications or specifically maybe in fact
container based application. There are I would separate in
the likes a classical like on for my zaps and modern cognitive
apps for people using classical. The Observer and soul.
So we fully support it on. As we announced the switch or
this, which we've got G both support on Azure.
So we're like police only Cloud where we got super for spraying
jeebus, all of the stuff are fully supported and manage on
Azure. So if you want to earn your
jeebus up on agents, perfect is supported by jeebus in
Microsoft, all of those, I would say classical of service.
I've always worked very well and go t to work very well.
Indeed. The criticism that most people
would do in Java is about to start a time and the memory
Falls, those two Horse in my opinion.
We don't really have a set up time issue because the idea is
that they're winning all the time.
So maybe you need to wait, 30 seconds to get started at the
beginning, but you're not going to stop it for several weeks.
So, startup time is done such a big issue.
And with most of my customers are doing something similar even
for new shiny things like several s functions.
So they never stop. So you don't have that much of
an issue with this cold start, for all of those people which I
would say as a majority. And then of course you got
people who want the newest stuff very fast.
We'll start. First tip is about as functions.
What is K BT which the flexibility?
So it's a different type of people.
Let me add also to. That makes what you just talked
about earlier with memory. Just people also probably want
to use less memory. They're very careful about their
resources. So you want faster tabs.
It won't blow memory and for that we've got two answers to
you. First of all with normal Java,
it's not that bad you spring good.
For example, if there is reactive spring, but even with
normal swing would most of the apps I'm working with that
opinion. I would say a few seconds and
Use less and I would say 500 megabyte.
So unless it's not that bad. It's 13th fast enough and it's
not using that much more week. If you compared to everything as
at you're using because when you use your spring with a pure
also, using another database, is a cache and so on.
So it's the thing that cost you the most money and detects the
most time to start up, might be your cash cash.
Takes time to fill up and takes memory.
Of course, your database also also sing.
So honestly, with a normal gym is not that bad and then if you
want to go to Next Step, because I know that's what people are
looking for. We've Well, VM support, I'm
working quite a lot with a girl VM team.
This works on Azure, but not officially.
So, there's a difference in Azure with what is supported and
what you can do. I talked earlier about jebus and
spring boot. You can run them in supported
environments. So it's fully supported by
Microsoft and VMware for spring and where that for, gee boss,
but you can also take a VM and you can install all of them and
run them by yourself. So you don't have the same
separation of responsibilities. Can you pass environment?
You just want to push your code? And you want your cloud provider
and your software providers to manage everything for you, but
you can also be in the less managed environment where you
manage more. And in that case, you can
totally build your native app and run it on Alger.
So I'm working with a spring team for running spring, with
application platform as a service.
We build it as Docker image and we deploy it on.
Typically up service which is our platform as a service
solution. We can also build them as
several s functions. So there's something called as
your functions. And if you take a spring boot
Cloud function. You can build it as a negative
image and when it on as a functions, I'm doing the sample
for that. So if you want to have a look at
my GitHub and bring the sample, I've already worked at it.
It's already working. So for spring, it works really
well. It's also working with crackers
and micro note. It's just that I have with
elastic science with it. I know people do it.
I'm working with us people from time to time.
So I'm pretty sure that was quite curious and Micronaut, you
won't have any trouble, but I'm more focusing on spring because
I'm your spring guy, but I would say, whatever the framework is
you're going to be able to build it.
As a native image and then you will be able to run it iser
platform as a service solution or on our server, less solution.
For both cases. You will clearly gain on the
cold start. Let me take the most extreme
example on functions. If I take a pure Java function,
if I take a very simple, hello world is always going to start
by fast and take little memory. But if I take something a little
bit more realistic than that, you know, like connecting to the
tables and something more normal cold start, for job at function
will start in about, I would say, six seconds.
If I build it as a negative image with gravel.
It's about two seconds switch much better.
The real course, at time of the other function of the guavian
function is, I don't know, 100 milliseconds, but then as it's
inside as a functions, as a functions, need to download your
function to install it and zip it before running.
It quite a lot of things to do before, just reading it.
It's not installed yet. So you'll first need to download
it and install it. So overall, it's taking two
seconds to do everything, including setting it up.
Maybe you can improve it a little bit, maybe can go below
that. Maybe middle, one second.
Yeah, but only stay closed out of 2 seconds.
Should be good for most people, if it's not good for you.
Well, then you can go to is what I talked about earlier, you can
pay and that's something which is always on.
It's, of course, a bit more expensive.
But if you got some very specific requirements, like, you
want some functions which are very low latency, even when
there is called start. Well, then maybe at some point
you need to pay. Hey, I forgot to say something
very specific to as you are because I don't want people to
misunderstand what I'm talking about when I talk with course,
starting earlier, it's quite different because that Other
providers, if you take as a functions, for example,
basically on the first request you got to cross that.
So that is what is taking. Let's it to S then your
functions up for some time officially.
We don't tell the time but unofficially can tell you 20
minutes and during the swim team uses a function stairs up and
and sort of multi threaded. So you can have multiple
requests on that function in parallel.
So basically you have very few cars that if you have some
customers arriving was the first one doing the first request,
will have a cool start, but Then everybody will have a hot
functions or nobody will have called that anymore.
So it's a very limited issue on urja.
So it's interesting to try to go around it because what it still
existing and also because technically it's fun.
That's also why I'm working on it.
But yep, so you mentioned now you are becoming the developer
advocate for Java inside Microsoft.
So what is the attraction you see in terms of adoption?
Maybe from a soup customers point of view or as your
developer's point of view. Do you still see a lot of people
are getting back into the Group, so to speak.
Because in the past few years, new languages came writers of
golang JavaScript and all that. So what is your view currently
with the developer growth in terms of java in Azul ecosystem?
Well for us you it's very specific because so
traditionally as you was attracting more dotnet people
and so on. So we had significant amount of
people using Java on Azure, but it was less than or sore throat,
be honest. And also, as we don't have some
specific Java support, maybe we do.
It also know that very well people can run Java inside
Docker. I knew people believe that
Microsoft is spying and what everybody's doing, but honestly,
if you weren't a Docker image it in, your could be discussed.
ER, what do we know? We just know you wouldn't
communities and you've got some Decay, imagine it may be, but we
have no idea what you're doing inside it.
So I really read a lot of people using Java inside Docker, and by
the clear, we couldn't know much about it.
So what I'm seeing today is more people using Java.
If we wearing a jean it's growing like crazy.
First of all, because Java is big.
Also because we didn't have that many Java people using Azure and
also, because we've got more and more Java companies joining the
cloud like Banks Banks and institutions governments, or
these people are very EV Java users and traditionally those
people were not that much in the cloud yet in the cloud.
We mostly, I like startups. So yeah, startups are doing go
and rest Banks. And governments are awesome.
What's he doing Java? So the more those people go to
the cloud, which is arriving. Now, the more Java used as we
see in the clouds, also, wiser with all this push.
Fogwell, VM, startup time and so on.
It wasn't such an issue before, it's become an issue now because
all those people are arriving. So as you lot more people using
Java clearly on as room and then we've got maybe two types of
people. We've got people running Java
inside kubernetes. So, honestly, I have little
information on what they are truly doing is just running a
container and then we've got people using giovanna's, you're
on our platform as a service offerings.
Like I just bring Cloud as you up service or so.
When the user was decay, of course, I see.
Using it, we've got some Telemetry which is optional.
If you accept to have the Telemetry, it's useful for us so
that we know what most people are doing.
So we know, we're all, so we need to push, like, if we know
that everybody's using customers DBA with this set of API.
Well, then we're going off course to do more effort on
this. So please turn the Telemetry on
if you want to help us, we got two types of people.
There are people who run it inside Docker and we manage more
and people will trust us to run the Java workloads.
And so that's why we get our own GDK, or we got our sewing, you
manager. In system, so we got something
called a pin sites. It has been existing in Asia
for, I would say forever, but there's a new version, which is
arriving, which is the Java agent.
So, if you know, emergency systems like your new Village,
you know, like those really cool and ions when heating systems we
having something similar inside Algeria and the Java agent, of
course on the sun Java, but it can also understand spring
boots, for example, so that means that at no cost is a
Divergent is free, but then, of course, it's Gathering data, and
if you store a lot of data, you will have some ghosts, but I
would say Very little cost, you can have some very in-depth and
precise mentoring of your app, which is interesting for two
things. First thing is, of course, for
you. If you've got something which is
not well coded. It's interesting to know, but
then the second thing is for scalability, because we can hook
it up with our Auto scalability Options in Asia.
That means that instead of saying, when my CPU is up at
80%, I want to scale up. That's a good metric that for
Java is not that good. But you might better want to do
is like, when Mike asked a queue is full, then I wont to Help,
you know, when my thread pool is full.
Maybe you have got to sweat blood which is full but your CPU
is not working too much. Just your thread pool is full
because it's doing something sweating or something.
It's full you need to scale up. But your CPU is that full or
your memory is natural. And so you need something more
precise and just having a look at CPU and memory and so that
Java agent will be more precise and will allow you to scale
better, and scaling. Better is, of course, it's good
for your customers because you can, please mark, you stammers.
Thanks to your scalability, but it's also good for your budget
because I'm always You know, scalability not only for going
up at a surfer going done. What you wanted with scalability
is to scale down as much as you can when you have less people
using your systems. So it's I would say having a
great metering system is little cost but then you can have grid
gain out of it. So, it's very exciting.
So, let's go to the thing that brought you to all these to our
champion and becoming famous open source contributor.
So, Jacob says, sound, maybe, can you tell a story?
How did you start actually creating Jacob, sir?
What kind of problem that you see, at that time?
Yes, so it was a long time ago, at that time, spring booted,
that exist. So I had an idea which was a bit
similar to Spring which initially and also that time we
added something new which was arriving which was under RGS
just new front-end Frameworks. And so that was the poor July
idea. But gifs with Java hipster
night, West Java for each stirs and for me tipsters where people
were doing angularjs typically and I wanted something.
So when I say we I wasn't company and many of us had a
similar issue. Basically, most of our customers
are what With saying, okay, we want to your spring but a spring
would be that exists. Basically work like copying and
pasting. Huge XML files all the time.
And also we want to front and and argue large.
Yes, is cool. We all want on eulogies.
So at some point where you realize that we are like 20
clients and they were all asking for the same thing, you know,
like the same Global Springwood configuration and angularjs on
top of it. So, after doing it, for ten
times, we realize, maybe we should determine that, which
might not be a good idea for Consulting.
Companies. You know, much Consulting,
companies were very happy to sell the same thing over and
over. Over again, to the customers,
but my consulting company was good.
We didn't want to sell the same thing over and over to
customers. So we wanted to automate it.
So the original idea was just to automate what everybody wanted
to do at that time. And so seven years ago.
It was always spraying an angularjs since then it became
completely crazy with Jeepster today.
We support not only own Eula but also react and view on the front
end and the back end with support Spring boot, but we also
support quack, use and micro note, and we even support none,
Java languages. Duck net on the GS.
So it became totally crazy. Today, Jeepster is more than
organization. It's a nonprofit organization.
We've got lots of two projects because of all just
Technologies. Most of my job today is trying
to organize this and not cutting any more just because it's too
big. There's just too many people and
20 different Technologies. Nobody can know, all those out
anyway, so I've got more work to organize, all of this.
I'm still following. I would say that occurs that I
liked most, so I'm still following spring boot.
I'm doing more. Yugi has there was an angular
but for supper, I have no idea what people in.net to.
I'm only trusting them that what to do is great.
So maybe there are some interesting stories as you
created this and it becomes popular.
What are some of the highlights that you can remember when it
got traction or become so big that you didn't foresee before?
Well, it's few Milestones that happen.
We're totally game-changing to me.
So at one time I only remember, it was a summer and if so,
what's going really big? I set it to have some really
good people. One of the colleagues of
Jeepster with deep roody-poo joined.
I had some really good people joining, but I was working on it
day and night so I just couldn't do it anymore.
And also it was a Samoa took on ideas.
And so at that time, I had one moment.
Where, where do I do? Do I go no ideas for two months.
Oh, by the way, I was like, the only one who was committing
stuff to the men, Bunch. So if I stopped like everything
was going to stop. So what do I do during the
summer? Do I work or summer?
Which honest is not that cool. Do I stop everything?
But then to put it is dead for two months.
Which is like will be bad. Oh, do I give the support all of
those people? Which is weird, because I didn't
know any of those. So, for example, for the pulpit,
like most of the other contributors, I didn't name, I
knew in sugita, but I had never met him.
I don't even know if we talked on the phone.
He was living in Singapore at the time as a way.
So do I trust people and give them the key to gipsa?
What should I do? And so glad you decided?
Yeah. It's open source or just people
seem really nice. That's when we created the core
team of jimster. So I do too.
About how many people got access at the beginning, but it was
like, 10 people and all of those people got commit rights to
gesture and could do anything on it.
And I want Al. So, we had maybe a few weeks
when it was a bit weird, because we realize I was doing a lot of
things that I didn't tell people about on testings and so on.
So we had some bug for a few weeks and then everything fell
into place, everything worked perfectly very fast.
After that people, understood how it was working.
Everybody was trustworthy. I don't believe you go and come.
Get an open source code for doing bad things.
It would be very strong. So everybody would can was nice
and trustworthy. Well, that's when we started
like the which is the second phase of Jeepster when we have
more people and myself. And so we started to do stuff
that I couldn't have done alone. So trust from your success.
I had to be forced to do it because of the summer but in the
end was that one first phase of jeeps or was like I was doing
everything. Then second phase is we've got
tons of people on laying it instead me anymore.
And that was a very good decision.
So that's the first I liked. Second.
I'd like, which also saved us some time later in Jeepster is
that we made? I don't know if it's an
agreement, a contract with open corrective.
So Point Collective is a platform together, phones for
open source projects. It was being used by web pack.
I'm friend with some people from webpack.
So I heard about it. So, thanks to them.
So we decided, let's try to find some sponsor.
Let's try to find some money for a Jeepster initially.
We wanted like, 50, maybe 100 euro a month just to pick us.
We've got some girls, like things our website.
I was paying everything with my own pocket.
Away, so it wasn't very expensive.
But, you know, sometimes when the project was you said, okay,
I'm going to try to find some users so that I don't take
everything with my own bucket. So we're looking for maybe 100
euro payments today. By the way, we're doing 100,000.
You will that year? We've got a huge budget which is
maybe even too big now. So we started that.
So now we making turn off when it was it, which wasn't expected
and that has totally changed the way we are working.
Now for dipster. First of all, you got money to
pay for the legal stuff branding.
Also stuff social project is very well protected, which can
sometimes be an issue. So we got two good legal
protection or so when we do conference, we've got an
insurance. Everything is legally within
his. Well.
Don't say that, the first thing, the second thing I forgot to
say, it's at its own by your nonprofit.
I can't make any money out of it.
I'm just one of the member of the nonprofit.
There is no shares. You need to nonprofit.
I'm just one of the member of the nonprofit organization.
That's very important, because I believe that if people start to
make it a real job, it wouldn't be her OB and wouldn't be fun
anymore. It would break everything down.
And such things that happen and which really adds a project is
that we set it to give Bug bounties.
So a bug bounty on jeffster is, for example, we've got a
situated issue. We've got something which has
very complex and very annoying to do something, which is very
long for also sings. We're not very good.
We're very good at small and fun task, you know, you want to
upgrade to the new version of Android springboard.
With this cool new feature. Everybody wants to do this, but
Li you do it in 2 hours. It's super fun.
Everybody wants to do it. There's no issue with it.
But as soon as we go, Something, which is annoying long, or very
urgent security issue, we bad because we are beast.
So, thanks to back, bunty's know, we pay money to people
when we've got something like this.
It goes between 100 and 500 dollars.
So it's good. I would have won.
If it's not enough to leave nominee because it's time to go,
you just to push some people to do stuff that wouldn't have been
done easily otherwise and it really opened up new
possibilities for us. So there's a huge number of
things. We were totally stuck on them
and sends to that money. We get totally instead.
Because we will tell people. Okay, I give you five hundred
dollar issuance take me on this and suddenly thanks to the magic
of money. Some stuff become possible that
which is impossible. If you don't pay people.
Well, that was a good lesson because it's not something that
we prepared. We didn't think of this.
We never thought we would have that money.
But clearly it was like the second step of the project where
we could do stuff that wasn't possible before just because we
have the money to pay for it. So that definitely helps and I
can't thank you open Collective enough for doing all this and
also managing the legal part of it.
What people also don't don't see that behind it.
So there's a company's open Collective on the all the legal
tax issues, everything. So for example, if you in
France, like me, you need to be taxes.
We're not doing this, like, some black market stuff.
So the only thing all the taxes and everything, so it's really
important for us that we have something which is fully legal,
especially, because now we got some good amount of money.
I couldn't have done this alone. It's just impossible.
So I'm very happy with my collaboration with a company
open Collective because they have enabled us to do so much
and so easily hearing your Neil's been like a huge success
and so many things that you didn't predict before, there are
so many open source projects these days as well.
And people are trying to also build their open source to
become a successful one, just like the Hipster.
So what will be some of your tips for those people who are
doing open source project as well.
So the first thing was Jeepster that made it work was indeed
that we didn't want to make it work.
You know, I wasn't thinking about having anything serious.
So like I often have people criticizing the name because
it's supposed to be fun. No or squared.
But what is true is that it's a very short world and very funny.
Initially. A lot of we'll just add a look
at it because it was unique and fun.
The second thing that made it work is that I as a chance to of
this committee arriving in the end.
It's all about the community. I couldn't have done it alone.
It's not possible. So, in order to have the
community, I would say that two important things.
The technical part adjuster is returned in a very woodsy.
Easy simple, maybe even stupid way.
If you have a look at our templates, This is a very bad.
They're only a year so that it's easy to edit them know, they're
not clever at all. It's very simple stuff.
The idea is that, if you're very good at that Docker, I'm taking
one example out of many, of course, you know, something very
specific about Docker. You an expert on one part.
I want you to be able to contribute very easily, and for
that, I don't want to have a system, which is very complex,
very smart because you will not be able to contribute.
I want you to have a very simple complex language.
Very stupidly written. We using a language called EGS.
It's JavaScript. Basically, it's someplace with
JavaScript. It's Able, but that means that
any expecting any technology can contribute very easily.
So, the first thing we did, and unless it was random luck on
this. Well, next time I do it.
No, it's not random like anymore.
But when I did it for Jupiter, it was random.
Look. Is that I took something?
Which is really simple. So, anybody could contribute, we
had some competitors where much smarter and I had a look at the
system. It was incredibly smart, but
then nobody can contribute because nobody would understand
it. When the stat, the most
important thing is that it's easy to make people contribute
and the second thing. Wicked on Jeepster is of course,
only on the human part is try to have as much people as possible
for that. It's a question of comity.
Oh, you build a community and what people do you want in your
community? For example, where one of the
very first project to have a code of conduct?
I'm a huge fan of code of conducts for two reasons, the
first one as soon as we had a code of conduct.
I saw challenging on the way we were welcoming people.
I believe we were always nice but as soon as we add a code of
conduct saying when somebody comes, we need to be nice with
that person. Well, then we become nicer just
because we said we would do it. There was really a challenge and
know when people join the project, you know, when you do
your first pull request you often have people saying well,
congratulations. Thank you for your first pull
request. It feels weird, maybe at the
beginning and that's maybe why we were not doing it initially.
But if you put yourself in the shoes of that new person, you
may be the first time it's contributing to any open source
project. It can be very intimidating and
then you got several people telling you a thank-you.
That's cool. Well, it pushes those people to
continue that. First thing, it's just being
nice, but it's important. And then the code of conduct
also is enforcing stuff, that's less nice heart.
But sometimes you've got people who are just not nice that toxic
people. It happens.
I have met a few of them. And basically, it's a choice of
governance for your project. But if you have one toxic
person, even if he's super good technically in my opinion is
going to wreck everything. Everybody will create, it will
be a nightmare. So you need to identify those
people as soon as you can and just make them go away.
Wait, there are different ways to make them go away.
But thanks to the code of conduct.
The most extreme saying is that when you've got somebody with
addressing the other people, while you can banish him from
the project. I got different example, I've
got an example which is I would say Fern because the people will
get kicked out of. We're happy about it.
So we got some sponsoring on the Gypsy project from some company
who push for some with adult entertainment stuff.
I mean, it's surgical just like the know.
There's mostly men work in open source.
It's a good Target for them. So basically, they wanted to
push advertisement for Dude, stuff, unzips her.
Since the could have collect. We're like a legal agreement
saying, okay. This is what you can do is this
is what you can do and you're totally in the option.
So, we're going to kick you out and they understood it.
We pay them back. By the way, the sponsor is so
they give us some money. We give them money back.
Of course, I would say, everybody was happy about it.
But thanks for the code of conduct.
We can officially limit what people do and can't do and it's
very important to remove toxic people or companies.
Well, in that case wasn't a taxi company.
People behaving in A way you would not like in your
community. By the way, if there are any
minorities, especially women in th it's a huge issue in Tech in
general, but it's even worse in open source.
Will get that issue in juicer like every other open source
project. So if we have a look at our
stats that are very bad, but we're a little bit better than
other project because it's so bad everywhere.
I would like to have more women contributing to open source and
especially to Jeepster. Of course, if we had some adult
entertainment advertisement on Jeep sir, it will not work.
That's why you could have conduct is very important.
If we want those women to join, us feel safe, feel welcomed.
Well, we need to have an environment, that makes them
feel safe, and welcome. So that's very important while.
Maybe that would be the next Frontier for Jeepster is finding
a good way to have more diversity, especially women in
our team. It's something we've been
pushing and working on for several years with some success.
We have some women contributing is not all that bad, but I would
have liked to have something much better than what we
currently have today. So, if you are woman and listen
to this podcast, Please join us. We will do everything to help
you. In terms of project.
We will monitor you. We will do everything that we
can to help you be part of the project because I really feel we
have an issue are generally interact.
With the most impact. I can have his on my own
project. So I'm going to push first for
my project. Thanks for sharing the
importance of code of conduct. I think most of the open source
create there won't be thinking about that.
And also thanks for sharing the fun story as well.
It's really interesting it to hear that.
So let's move on to the Developer advocacy that you
mentioned in the beginning. So you mentioned companies where
you are at now Microsoft or go right in terms of development.
Advocacy. One of the things that is very
interesting is that they leave you totally free in terms of
stating opinions and also credibility point of view.
Maybe you can share a little bit on that front.
What is the purpose of having developer?
Advocacy that is flexible and free to say things.
Yeah. So for sure not everybody has
got the same definition of developer.
Advocacy. I see a lot of Companies
typically, in France by because I'm living here and they make
developer. Advocacy, part of marketing for
them. It's only people, you pay for a
conference eat. And then the person goes on
stage and they'll agree to put the keys and the toll, it can be
a different issue, and I believe it to tell you want to do that.
But I respect her to that opinion.
Act. Microsoft is very different.
So if I take my team, for example, let me just tell you
what I was just doing, like just before our meeting, I'm prepping
spring one, which is a Big Spring Java conference.
So it's very important for us. I'm going to speak there.
I was selected. Screw the cfp and officially I
should not as a dip, but forget be selected for sponsorship.
The girl in my team is that were selected because of our own
value. So, screw cfp, sometimes we do
also sponsor stuff and probably will do it at Spring wind, to be
honest. Because we also sponsor, so it's
sometimes a bit complicated. Microsoft is everywhere, and
probably the people from marketing with pay for the
sponsorship will be able to reverse talking but officially
normally, we should only be selected because of our own
Merit. So we go through cfp like Buddy,
we don't pay and then we can talk about everything.
We liked or disliked one. I would say Java and Microsoft
or even not Microsoft. It's very open.
The goal of Microsoft is to level 1 level.
Of course just to show people. That Microsoft is doing some
cool stuff on Java. That's all you attract people to
Microsoft sir. That's I would say the most
obvious reason why you do developer advocacy, but then
there's another reason is that you want to have feedback from
developers if I go to conference, but I'm also
interested is to have people coming to me and telling me,
okay. I'm not using you as a because
of this, this is so bad. I don't want to use it or I'm
using almond a very strange way because that doesn't shoot me
and that's a lot more important to us because that's how you fix
the problems inside. As you, we can't do it by
ourselves physically because with to into the project, if I
talk to the engineers of others, as buying all the time doing as
your engineering, so they know it very well, but of course they
are. I would say looked inside the
ideas and it's starting to be the same with me.
I've been at Microsoft for too long.
Now I start to believe as you way of doing things is the best
way of doing things because that's what I've been doing for
years. If I want to have new opinions,
new ideas. I need to go to see those people
who are going to tell me what's wrong.
That's super important because that's how you improve your
products. And that's why people then
choose your product. For me.
It's a part of marketing melted in the good sense of way.
Marketing is also finding the good product for the market.
It's not just, you know, advertisement.
It's also creating the best product for the market.
And for that, you need to go into the market and see what
people want. I'm doing a lot of terraform.
It's not a Microsoft product inside as you if you want to
deploy. Up to Azure, but if you want to
generate you infrastructure, we've got arm, which is our
official language. We've got a new thing called be
sap, which is very close to 1 by the way.
So we've got our own tools for that.
Then the styrofoam, which is a third party tool, which is, in
my opinion, very good, but it's not a Microsoft product.
So if I only talked to Microsoft people, everybody going to tell
me use our Muse, Beast by set, use the as your CLI, use the
other tools. Nobody's going to tell me you
stole a van because it's not a Microsoft or but then if I go to
conferences, I know I'm going to have 99% of people telling me
your strength. It's a lot better.
If I don't do conferences, I don't have that feedback.
And then I don't know what we need to push, that's because of
that. So if I take as a spring Cloud,
so it's a Wellspring offering and working lock on it.
We have just released first wrinkled.
We have just withdrawn from support.
So why do we do to have some support?
And as a sprinkler is that because we know that people want
to read from, but if we don't do that initial work of thing,
people listening to them while we don't know and we wouldn't
have probably done that to a Firm support something.
If you look at IDE plugins, we do.
Just your cards, probably would mostly focus on Biggio.
Well, we've got some great plugins, you know, as a plug-ins
for intelligent. Why do we do it for intelligence
because we know developers using trilogy.
But how do we know that? It's because we have got such
relationship with developers. We go.
Where's our? We listen to them and they tell
us that most of the Java developers are using IntelliJ.
So that's also why we know that we need to do that work.
So the web advocacy is all about 12 that connection with the
local community, which is AD and which can only happen Trudy if
you are. Independent and not whether
thing area, if you're not a marketing guy, if you're only if
our marketing people don't trust you or don't listen to you.
If you want to add that orthotic connection where you have what
really people won't, you need to do something else?
That's what we're trying to do. I hope we do it.
Well, so in terms of the last few years, Microsoft has been
changing a lot in terms of Open Source, adoption being open as
well regarding Technologies and all that.
Maybe a little bit of summary in the last maybe few months or so.
How is the open source culture in?
Actually becoming so Microsoft has done a lot of Open Source.
People don't realize it but stuff like Visual Studio code,
it's Microsoft and used by. I would say every developers on
the planet might be one of the biggest a project.
And we also contribute to very big about this project, like the
- lots of Engineers working in communities.
So there's a huge Microsoft culture on open-source today, of
course, not for everything at Microsoft, but at least four
other, uh, part of it. I was thinking about Windows but
Windows is not open source, but big parts of Windows are now my
That example is your windows calculator.
It's open source, you can do pull, request, and maybe the
next version of the windows calculator will have your
coordinate so more and more open source at Microsoft, and also
more and more, Microsoft, people contributing to open source,
web, push to contribute with some singles, open-source
office. But what I really like about
their work is so first of all, we've got the framework to open
source what we do. Basically, the self-service
portal which is open source, by the way, so you can go through
that portal and say, okay, I would like to take this GitHub
repository. And to be sheet as open source
inside, the Microsoft organization on GitHub.
And so, depending on what you do know, if it's something very
simple. It's very easy.
If you want to do something more complex, you need to go to
several complaints steps for legal.
They're going to have a look at your trademarks.
Maybe you took a name which is trademarked and you shouldn't,
so you get different steps with. It's all automated cell to work
for for this and everything is done.
So that it's very easy for you to publish stuff as open source,
and in return. Also, that open source office as
a grant. I think it's every month.
With the grunting ten thousand dollars to an open source
project. So at Microsoft when you
contribute to open source during that month, you've got voting
rights for this. So basically they're going to
push you to contribute because if you contribute then you will
have some benefits including voting for giving ten thousand
dollars to give away to purchase project.
There's really a huge push for doing open to that Microsoft,
which is surprising for many people, but that's how it is
today. Either way.
I believe everything I do is open source at Microsoft,
everything I can think of right now that I've done at Microsoft.
Open source. Maybe I fixed a few stuff which
were and, but I would say, Okay, 95% of five.
I've been doing it because of the is open source, which is
yeah, very surprising. Thanks for sharing that.
I mean, like, I use personally, I haven't seen it in that way.
But I know that Microsoft has been doing a lot of Open Source
projects products, they live. So it's really good to hear from
you yourself working internal in Microsoft.
Some of the things that Microsoft has been doing for
open source, but Julian is been a pleasure talking to you,
unfortunately, due to the time we have to come to the end but
before For I, let you go. I normally ask one question that
I always ask all my guests wishes to share three technical
leadership wisdom for all of us to done from.
So, could you share yours? Okay.
So the first one I go for this. The first thing I got at
Microsoft when I became a manager and I realize it's the
same thing. I've been doing at Jeepster but
without seeking of it, but it's better.
When you think of it first is that when you become a manager,
you're not in charge anymore, of doing things, you're in charge
of the people who are in charge of doing things.
So, I realize I'm doing this, is something a So not injector.
I was initially cutting everything and now I'm in charge
of the people cutting, that's very important, and that a
perfect person. I'm still contributing and doing
curl and doing covers dogs. But then if you want your team
to succeed, you need to go out of the way and help people
succeed. So first thing is that, you're
not in charge you in charge of the people, the second thing we
talked a little bit about it earlier.
It's about diversity. If your manager basically you're
building up a team or you have an existing team, but you still
have some impact on the people inside.
The team. If everybody sings the same
words, the same access them. Nothing you're not doing to
succeed but you're not going to go very far.
If I take Jeepster, we will still be doing angular and
Springwood only. We would not be doing react and
you, we would not be doing the GS.
It wouldn't be successful as it is today.
So, when I said you visited into a very broad term, but I think
people from different background, different culture,
different genders, etc. Etc.
Helps you 12. Different views on what you are
doing and Indian. It's because we've got all so
different. Paul Wilson differently that you
got a product that is better for everyone.
Because if you want to believe that works for everyone while
you need to build it with everyone, the last thing I had
that's also mostly from Jeepster, but it's also a major
really work at Microsoft. So my third tip would be a
french guy. So I'm going to quote, another
french guy. I don't think, you know, on to
understand take GPA is a famous French writer with something
called. Look pretty pass.
The Little Prince public in English, this famous quote.
So I'm going to try to translate it in English, but it's are so
typically, if you want to build a ship, you're not going to tell
people to gather would divide your work.
Give orders. If you want to successfully
build a ship. You need to tell people to look
for the vast and own list. See you need to give them a girl
which is beyond what they are doing.
The same thing with jip. So if you have a look at Jeb
sir, we're not telling her we're doing the most incredible
JavaScript code and the most precise Docker configuration
watch with telling people is that thanks to JB sir.
You're going to build the most beautiful web application ever.
We're not Intending Springwood with telling where framework to
make you more productive. It's the same thing at
Microsoft, when we talk about Azure with the King, thanks to
our, you're going to be more efficient, more productive.
You will be the best people on the planet because you will be
more efficient for the kids and other people open source is all
about inspiring people to go somewhere.
Well, you need to have a, why, why are you doing it while we're
doing it? Because we want to do the best
thing in the world, just for Jeep.
So we want to have developers build the most beautiful and
efficient web application in no time.
Or I will use a new purse project.
Conniption going to prediction on Azure is only one.
Get push away. We telling you you're going to
go to production very easily. That's the goal and we're not
telling okay. If you want to use an object,
then you need to do some tourism stuff and some guitar actions.
We don't go into the details like this.
It's not inspiring. Nobody's going to be interested
by having the best GitHub action, and to reform, and Java
code generator in the world. It's not what you do.
It's why you do it and why are you doing it?
You're doing it because you want to be more productive because
Wanted to go to production, very fast and very easily and you're
not focusing on what you're doing because what you're doing
is bowing. Hey, thanks for sharing that
tips for passing on the wire instead of the what as a leader.
Right? I think that really sums it up
really nicely. So thanks again for your time.
So if people wants to connect with you find you online.
Find your open source project where they can find you
actually. So you can find me First on
Twitter. It's actually and you were on
Twitter, they can find me on GitHub, but on GitHub small,
commit and stuff, so, it's not that At fun, they can find you
on LinkedIn, small professional, but I would say, yeah, most of
the time, it's on Twitter. I'm on Twitter all day long, so
it's probably the easiest way to find me and to interact with me.
I love chatting on Twitter. I really see that as social
media. I don't see Twitter.
I just meet publishing stuff. I say it, like chatting with
other people, so it's a two-way communication.
So, please don't hesitate to ping me.
Mention me from all your questions about Azure, or what
you want to build. It's always interesting.
Thanks, Julian. Thanks again for your time.
So we should good luck with The open source projects are you
doing and all the developer? Advocacy that you're doing at
Microsoft as well? Thank you.
Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right
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