1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,900 Today's episode of the Tecla Journal podcast is proudly, 2 00:00:02,900 --> 00:00:06,600 sponsored by emergence the Journal of business agility. 3 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:10,200 This quarterly publication brings you inspiring stories 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,800 from the most Innovative companies and explores the 5 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:15,900 themes of the new ways of working reclaiming management 6 00:00:15,900 --> 00:00:19,100 and humanizing business. It brings together a curated 7 00:00:19,100 --> 00:00:22,200 selection of exclusive stories by great, thinkers and 8 00:00:22,200 --> 00:00:25,200 practitioners from around the globe that can broaden your 9 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,400 horizons and Spark. Your creativity. 10 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,600 Each issue is hen Illustrated. And contains 100% pure content, 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:38,800 use the promo code tekhelet eech led to get a 10% discount on 12 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:42,000 your annual subscription. Visit business agility, dot 13 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:45,500 Institute, / emergence, to get your addition and support the 14 00:00:45,500 --> 00:00:47,600 publication supporting your podcast. 15 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:51,100 Here's the link One More Time. Business agility, dot Institute, 16 00:00:51,100 --> 00:00:54,000 / emergence. The most important thing is that 17 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:56,100 it's easy to make people contribute. 18 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,800 The second thing we did on Jeepster is of course, only on 19 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,400 the And Bart is try to have as much people as possible for 20 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:05,400 that. It's a question of comity. 21 00:01:05,400 --> 00:01:08,300 Oh, you build a community and what people do you want in your 22 00:01:08,300 --> 00:01:14,300 community? Hey everyone. 23 00:01:14,900 --> 00:01:16,900 My name is Henry Surya with Robin. 24 00:01:18,700 --> 00:01:21,000 And you're listening to the tekhelet journal. 25 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,400 The show will be bringing you the greatest technical leaders 26 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:28,200 practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:32,300 discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all 28 00:01:32,300 --> 00:01:35,900 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 29 00:01:36,300 --> 00:01:38,800 and to make an impact in your personal work. 30 00:01:39,500 --> 00:01:47,500 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello everyone. 31 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:51,000 Welcome back to another episode of the Tecla Journal podcast. 32 00:01:51,100 --> 00:01:52,800 I'm your host Henry Surya without one. 33 00:01:53,300 --> 00:01:56,100 Thank you for spending your time with me today, listening to this 34 00:01:56,100 --> 00:01:58,700 episode. If you haven't, please subscribe 35 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:01,800 to Tech the journal, on your favorite podcast apps and also 36 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,000 follow our social media channels on LinkedIn, Twitter and 37 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,000 Instagram, you can also make some contribution to the show 38 00:02:08,199 --> 00:02:11,300 and support the creation of this podcast by subscribing, as a 39 00:02:11,300 --> 00:02:15,200 patron at technology. No, dot f / Patron, and Help me 40 00:02:15,300 --> 00:02:18,500 to continue producing. Great content every week for 41 00:02:18,500 --> 00:02:20,500 today's episode. I am happy to share my 42 00:02:20,500 --> 00:02:22,600 conversation with Julian Du Bois. 43 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:26,600 Julian is the creator of jail hipster, a popular open source 44 00:02:26,600 --> 00:02:30,300 development platform, that helps you to build beautiful and 45 00:02:30,300 --> 00:02:33,900 modern web applications. He currently manages the Java 46 00:02:33,900 --> 00:02:37,000 developer. Advocacy team at Microsoft in 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,100 this episode Julian shared about the state of Javed option for 48 00:02:41,100 --> 00:02:44,600 cloud native applications as well as Java adoption Within 49 00:02:44,700 --> 00:02:47,900 Microsoft. And as your ecosystem Julian 50 00:02:47,900 --> 00:02:50,800 also, shared history on how he started Jay hipster. 51 00:02:51,300 --> 00:02:54,100 Some of the highlights of running it as a successful open 52 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:57,200 source project and he also shared about his developer. 53 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:01,100 Advocacy work at Microsoft and why he thinks developer 54 00:03:01,100 --> 00:03:05,500 Advocates need to be independent in their advocacy work in order 55 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:08,400 to gain the trust and credibility from the people and 56 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,200 ultimately create the best product for the market. 57 00:03:11,700 --> 00:03:14,900 And for those of you who want to learn from Julian on how He 58 00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:19,000 successfully created and ran J. Hipster, Julian also shared some 59 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,400 tips on how we can run a successful open source project. 60 00:03:22,900 --> 00:03:26,900 I enjoyed my conversation with Julian learning from him and his 61 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:30,100 J, hipster story, and I hope that you will enjoy this episode 62 00:03:30,100 --> 00:03:32,400 as well. Consider helping the show by 63 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:36,200 living at the rating review or comment on your podcast app, or 64 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:38,800 you can also leave us some comments on our social media 65 00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:41,800 channels, those reviews and comments are one of the best 66 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:44,300 ways to help me get this podcast to reach. 67 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:45,100 Molly. Sinners. 68 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:48,400 And hopefully, they can also benefit from all the contents in 69 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:50,800 this podcast. So let's get this episode 70 00:03:50,800 --> 00:03:55,600 started right away. Hey everyone, welcome back to 71 00:03:55,608 --> 00:03:57,800 another new episode of the peclet journal. 72 00:03:58,100 --> 00:04:01,300 Today, I have with me, someone who is a Java champion and also 73 00:04:01,300 --> 00:04:05,100 the creator of a famous open source project called J hipster. 74 00:04:05,600 --> 00:04:09,000 For those of you, who knows about Java technology and a 75 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,500 hipster. Maybe you have used this 76 00:04:10,500 --> 00:04:14,300 popular, open source software. My guess is called Julian Duval. 77 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:17,600 Very pleased to have a chance to meet you and actually talk to 78 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,600 you about your career and everything around Java and J 79 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:22,800 hipster. So, welcome to the show Julian. 80 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,600 Well, I think sure. I'm very honored to be invited 81 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,500 to your show and very happy to share a little bit of what I 82 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:30,800 know with your audience. Thank you. 83 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:32,600 So Julian, maybe in the beginning. 84 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,300 Can you introduce yourself and telling us more about your 85 00:04:35,300 --> 00:04:36,700 career? Maybe, some highlights or 86 00:04:36,700 --> 00:04:39,200 turning points in your career? Yes. 87 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:41,300 I'm Junior Dubois. I'm French. 88 00:04:41,300 --> 00:04:43,500 That's why I go to cinema. This weird name. 89 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,800 I've been Working with Java for a bit more than 20 years. 90 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,000 So I've done many things with Java just to tell two of three 91 00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,000 of the highlights of my career's by were two broken spring. 92 00:04:55,100 --> 00:04:57,700 I worked at Springs or some of the company which created and 93 00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:00,400 led the spring. In fact, I manage a French 94 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,000 subsidiary of spring Source, but 10 years ago. 95 00:05:03,000 --> 00:05:07,500 Now I created that open source project that you talked about 96 00:05:07,500 --> 00:05:09,900 which is called Jeepster, which is very popular. 97 00:05:10,100 --> 00:05:13,300 So I created that about seven years ago jib Stars grow in the 98 00:05:13,300 --> 00:05:16,900 Lord and To bust spring Suzanne Jeepster. 99 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:19,800 I dot I add two years ago by Microsoft. 100 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:23,900 So now I work in the drop of OKC team at Microsoft and Amanda 101 00:05:23,900 --> 00:05:27,000 manager of the chatter team in the Republic is at Microsoft. 102 00:05:27,100 --> 00:05:30,500 So yeah, three lights springsource Jeepster and 103 00:05:30,500 --> 00:05:33,300 Microsoft will last thing that you mentioned because it don't 104 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:35,600 often talk about this. But yeah, I have much of a 105 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:37,500 champion. So I was actually the job a 106 00:05:37,500 --> 00:05:40,900 champion and to wear like maybe four years ago since to 107 00:05:40,900 --> 00:05:42,200 Jeepster. Java. 108 00:05:42,200 --> 00:05:46,100 Jumping is very interesting and I active Committee of people 109 00:05:46,100 --> 00:05:48,400 pushing Java. I don't know which options are 110 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:50,200 know maybe 300, something like this. 111 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:53,500 So it's a very nice group of people from different companies 112 00:05:53,500 --> 00:05:56,700 were all pushing Java forward. So I'm very happy to be part of 113 00:05:56,700 --> 00:05:58,100 them. I would say, unfortunately, I 114 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:01,600 don't but spits at much into our Champions today because I've got 115 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:05,200 my work life at Microsoft and also my open source life with 116 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:08,700 Jeepster so that leaves little time for doing even more stuff. 117 00:06:08,900 --> 00:06:11,200 But I mean, from time to time while yesterday's, but when Noah 118 00:06:11,200 --> 00:06:13,700 was a champion because it's a chocolate, so it happens 119 00:06:13,700 --> 00:06:15,400 sometimes. Join, Java. 120 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:18,700 I will look it's a good group of people that put you open. 121 00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:20,800 If you want to join the group, you need to be elected. 122 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:22,700 So it's a bit more complicated to be elected. 123 00:06:22,700 --> 00:06:24,700 But still, you know, it's not because you're not have a 124 00:06:24,707 --> 00:06:26,500 champion that those people will not talk with you. 125 00:06:27,500 --> 00:06:29,100 So I encourage you to have a look at this group. 126 00:06:29,100 --> 00:06:31,400 It's on Twitter, the very active and very interesting. 127 00:06:31,700 --> 00:06:34,600 I would say pushing each other forward and without too much 128 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:36,600 marketing. No, it's not owned by Oracle 129 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,900 Oracle is managing it, but you can't be a diva champion. 130 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:43,200 If you're a member of Oracle, when you are selected, you need 131 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:44,400 to show that you are independent. 132 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:47,000 And I'm open-minded. So if you don't like Oracle 133 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:49,600 Technologies, that's perfect. That's in fact what they are 134 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:51,700 looking for, but that's something that we can talk maybe 135 00:06:51,700 --> 00:06:53,300 more. So in the end when we dealt with 136 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:56,600 leadership as where that vehicle sees it, and something from 137 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,100 Microsoft also for my job is they won't we have a very 138 00:06:59,100 --> 00:07:01,900 diverse opinions, including negative opinions? 139 00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:04,300 Because that's how you go. That's how you progress is 140 00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:05,400 because you have people telling you. 141 00:07:05,600 --> 00:07:07,600 Well that's bad. You shouldn't do it that way 142 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,900 because if you have only clones and everybody thinks the same 143 00:07:11,100 --> 00:07:13,000 well, then you don't move forward and also you have no 144 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,600 credibility. One of the That they love to do 145 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,200 at Microsoft that I can say that. 146 00:07:17,300 --> 00:07:20,400 You know, this part of java at Microsoft isn't really good. 147 00:07:20,600 --> 00:07:24,000 And when I say this people, then trust me when I say that other 148 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,900 things are working well, because they know that I can say. 149 00:07:25,900 --> 00:07:28,600 When something is bad, you have a lot more credibility when you 150 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,400 are independent and when you can talk freely about the tool. 151 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,100 So that's why, when I say that I love this specific, Microsoft 152 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:35,800 product. They know I love it for real 153 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,100 because if I didn't love it, I wouldn't tell it. 154 00:07:38,600 --> 00:07:41,900 So in the first place, seems like a very interesting, mix 155 00:07:41,900 --> 00:07:44,500 Microsoft and Java Technologies. Can you share? 156 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:47,200 Are specifically because Microsoft normally is well-known 157 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,000 for dotnet, which is the competing technology for Java. 158 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,800 So what is up in Microsoft these days? 159 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,300 And why are you specifically focusing on Java at Microsoft? 160 00:07:56,700 --> 00:08:00,700 So Microsoft has a room and bumpy is to be with Java. 161 00:08:00,900 --> 00:08:03,500 Currently. There is a huge push for job at 162 00:08:03,500 --> 00:08:06,200 Microsoft, but it's even more than that some years ago. 163 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,200 Like Microsoft, where the new CEO Satya Nadella, we still see 164 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,100 you today. And you like totally open up the 165 00:08:11,100 --> 00:08:14,200 company decided to say things, like your Microsoft loves Linux, 166 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:19,300 which Wasn't the case before, Microsoft is much more open and 167 00:08:19,300 --> 00:08:22,900 the objective is to have every people and including every 168 00:08:22,900 --> 00:08:25,800 developers be more productive. Thanks to Microsoft 169 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:27,900 Technologies. Microsoft has always been about 170 00:08:27,900 --> 00:08:30,300 productivity tools. Of course, if you look at all 171 00:08:30,300 --> 00:08:32,500 the developers in the world, as a lot of people using Linux, 172 00:08:32,500 --> 00:08:36,000 lots of people using Java. So, Microsoft is not locked 173 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,100 anymore. Are just doing like Windows and 174 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,799 the net because it's truly meeting for the goal of 175 00:08:40,799 --> 00:08:42,900 Microsoft. So, there has been this 176 00:08:42,900 --> 00:08:46,600 openness, which has been there. For several years for Java. 177 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:48,900 It's bit more recent. I don't know when it started 178 00:08:48,900 --> 00:08:50,300 exactly. But I would say about four or 179 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:52,400 five years ago. We had much of a Champions on 180 00:08:52,408 --> 00:08:54,800 Microsoft today. I think with 13 Java Champions 181 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:57,200 at Microsoft. So Microsoft have been iRacing. 182 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,800 A lot of people who watch our Champions or so has been hearing 183 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,600 a lot of very good job of people who then became July Champions 184 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:04,200 thankful their work at Microsoft. 185 00:09:04,300 --> 00:09:08,000 Basically, we want to have Java developers love Microsoft and 186 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,100 for that we need to have an investment in tooling and 187 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:13,400 productivity and software for Java developers. 188 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,200 So if you So bloated, look at what Microsoft offers we have 189 00:09:17,300 --> 00:09:20,000 IDs, we've got great Java, support indigenous geocode. 190 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,200 We've got Azure. I'm working in Asia. 191 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:24,100 So, of course, on our journey, would we get? 192 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:27,000 Josh, can deploy your Java apps can deploy your spring with art 193 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,300 on as you, it's fully supported. We've got a Java SDK and very 194 00:09:30,300 --> 00:09:33,400 good Java SDK on Azure. And also we've got a lot of 195 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,300 other Microsoft services that people might know, but don't 196 00:09:36,300 --> 00:09:38,000 think about, which are better than Java. 197 00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,500 Minecraft is using Java LinkedIn is using Java. 198 00:09:41,700 --> 00:09:43,400 All those are Microsoft subsidiaries. 199 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,500 So we've got a lot of java. Developers inside, Microsoft, or 200 00:09:46,500 --> 00:09:49,100 unless I forgot, we're also using a lot of java internally 201 00:09:49,300 --> 00:09:50,800 inside. As your, for example, when you 202 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,900 use Azure such a huge task, a cluster, and this is winning on 203 00:09:53,900 --> 00:09:55,700 Java. So we've got GM's and Java. 204 00:09:55,700 --> 00:09:59,300 Engine is everywhere. So today's as a huge investment 205 00:09:59,300 --> 00:10:02,800 in job at Microsoft. It has maybe Community exists 206 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:05,900 here because we announce that we've got our own build of 207 00:10:05,900 --> 00:10:08,200 openjdk. So know, you can run the 208 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,500 Microsoft belief openjdk, which is maintained and supported by 209 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:14,700 Microsoft. It's a true openjdk build did It 210 00:10:14,708 --> 00:10:16,500 is that it's built and supported by us. 211 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,100 And that means that when you run Java on Azure, we can guarantee 212 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:22,800 that we support everything and we patch everything and we 213 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,000 update, it wasn't for you. You talked about dotnet, you've 214 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:27,300 got a similar experience with Java, you got something which is 215 00:10:27,300 --> 00:10:29,900 fully supporting from the hardware to the GM. 216 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,600 Everything is fully supported and patched by Microsoft. 217 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,300 As the end User. It's a combination where you can 218 00:10:35,300 --> 00:10:38,800 trust that everything will be secured and robeast for you. 219 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,400 So you mentioned that you are currently working with Java and 220 00:10:42,500 --> 00:10:46,400 Azurite the combination of java. And Cloud, so we know that in 221 00:10:46,400 --> 00:10:49,600 the past few years. Java was not really well known 222 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:51,400 for being the language of choice. 223 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:53,600 To be deployed on the call simply because of, maybe it's 224 00:10:53,600 --> 00:10:56,300 heavyweight. It took time to bootstrap and 225 00:10:56,300 --> 00:10:57,600 having memory and things like that. 226 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,700 So what's the current state of usage of Java for like Cloud, 227 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:03,600 native applications or specifically maybe in fact 228 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,600 container based application. There are I would separate in 229 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:11,800 the likes a classical like on for my zaps and modern cognitive 230 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,100 apps for people using classical. The Observer and soul. 231 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,100 So we fully support it on. As we announced the switch or 232 00:11:19,100 --> 00:11:21,500 this, which we've got G both support on Azure. 233 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:24,400 So we're like police only Cloud where we got super for spraying 234 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:27,400 jeebus, all of the stuff are fully supported and manage on 235 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:28,600 Azure. So if you want to earn your 236 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,300 jeebus up on agents, perfect is supported by jeebus in 237 00:11:31,308 --> 00:11:34,900 Microsoft, all of those, I would say classical of service. 238 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,900 I've always worked very well and go t to work very well. 239 00:11:38,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Indeed. The criticism that most people 240 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,100 would do in Java is about to start a time and the memory 241 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,500 Falls, those two Horse in my opinion. 242 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:47,900 We don't really have a set up time issue because the idea is 243 00:11:47,908 --> 00:11:49,000 that they're winning all the time. 244 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:52,000 So maybe you need to wait, 30 seconds to get started at the 245 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:54,700 beginning, but you're not going to stop it for several weeks. 246 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:57,100 So, startup time is done such a big issue. 247 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,600 And with most of my customers are doing something similar even 248 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,100 for new shiny things like several s functions. 249 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,500 So they never stop. So you don't have that much of 250 00:12:06,500 --> 00:12:09,300 an issue with this cold start, for all of those people which I 251 00:12:09,300 --> 00:12:12,100 would say as a majority. And then of course you got 252 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,400 people who want the newest stuff very fast. 253 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:16,600 We'll start. First tip is about as functions. 254 00:12:16,800 --> 00:12:18,600 What is K BT which the flexibility? 255 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:20,800 So it's a different type of people. 256 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:23,300 Let me add also to. That makes what you just talked 257 00:12:23,300 --> 00:12:26,200 about earlier with memory. Just people also probably want 258 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:28,400 to use less memory. They're very careful about their 259 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:30,200 resources. So you want faster tabs. 260 00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,900 It won't blow memory and for that we've got two answers to 261 00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:35,100 you. First of all with normal Java, 262 00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:37,200 it's not that bad you spring good. 263 00:12:37,200 --> 00:12:39,300 For example, if there is reactive spring, but even with 264 00:12:39,300 --> 00:12:41,900 normal swing would most of the apps I'm working with that 265 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:44,300 opinion. I would say a few seconds and 266 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:47,300 Use less and I would say 500 megabyte. 267 00:12:47,300 --> 00:12:50,600 So unless it's not that bad. It's 13th fast enough and it's 268 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,600 not using that much more week. If you compared to everything as 269 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:56,200 at you're using because when you use your spring with a pure 270 00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:58,400 also, using another database, is a cache and so on. 271 00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:01,100 So it's the thing that cost you the most money and detects the 272 00:13:01,100 --> 00:13:03,800 most time to start up, might be your cash cash. 273 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:05,500 Takes time to fill up and takes memory. 274 00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:07,600 Of course, your database also also sing. 275 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,300 So honestly, with a normal gym is not that bad and then if you 276 00:13:11,308 --> 00:13:13,500 want to go to Next Step, because I know that's what people are 277 00:13:13,500 --> 00:13:16,100 looking for. We've Well, VM support, I'm 278 00:13:16,100 --> 00:13:18,000 working quite a lot with a girl VM team. 279 00:13:18,300 --> 00:13:21,400 This works on Azure, but not officially. 280 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:24,200 So, there's a difference in Azure with what is supported and 281 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,300 what you can do. I talked earlier about jebus and 282 00:13:27,300 --> 00:13:29,900 spring boot. You can run them in supported 283 00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:31,500 environments. So it's fully supported by 284 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:34,500 Microsoft and VMware for spring and where that for, gee boss, 285 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:38,000 but you can also take a VM and you can install all of them and 286 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,400 run them by yourself. So you don't have the same 287 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,300 separation of responsibilities. Can you pass environment? 288 00:13:43,300 --> 00:13:45,900 You just want to push your code? And you want your cloud provider 289 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:48,500 and your software providers to manage everything for you, but 290 00:13:48,500 --> 00:13:50,900 you can also be in the less managed environment where you 291 00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:52,900 manage more. And in that case, you can 292 00:13:52,900 --> 00:13:56,300 totally build your native app and run it on Alger. 293 00:13:56,500 --> 00:13:59,800 So I'm working with a spring team for running spring, with 294 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:01,500 application platform as a service. 295 00:14:01,700 --> 00:14:03,900 We build it as Docker image and we deploy it on. 296 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:06,200 Typically up service which is our platform as a service 297 00:14:06,200 --> 00:14:08,500 solution. We can also build them as 298 00:14:08,500 --> 00:14:11,300 several s functions. So there's something called as 299 00:14:11,300 --> 00:14:13,700 your functions. And if you take a spring boot 300 00:14:13,700 --> 00:14:15,500 Cloud function. You can build it as a negative 301 00:14:15,500 --> 00:14:18,600 image and when it on as a functions, I'm doing the sample 302 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:20,300 for that. So if you want to have a look at 303 00:14:20,300 --> 00:14:22,900 my GitHub and bring the sample, I've already worked at it. 304 00:14:22,900 --> 00:14:25,000 It's already working. So for spring, it works really 305 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,600 well. It's also working with crackers 306 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,900 and micro note. It's just that I have with 307 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:32,200 elastic science with it. I know people do it. 308 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,400 I'm working with us people from time to time. 309 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,900 So I'm pretty sure that was quite curious and Micronaut, you 310 00:14:36,900 --> 00:14:39,300 won't have any trouble, but I'm more focusing on spring because 311 00:14:39,300 --> 00:14:42,600 I'm your spring guy, but I would say, whatever the framework is 312 00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:44,300 you're going to be able to build it. 313 00:14:44,500 --> 00:14:46,900 As a native image and then you will be able to run it iser 314 00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:50,600 platform as a service solution or on our server, less solution. 315 00:14:50,900 --> 00:14:53,400 For both cases. You will clearly gain on the 316 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,400 cold start. Let me take the most extreme 317 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,800 example on functions. If I take a pure Java function, 318 00:14:59,100 --> 00:15:01,500 if I take a very simple, hello world is always going to start 319 00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:04,500 by fast and take little memory. But if I take something a little 320 00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,900 bit more realistic than that, you know, like connecting to the 321 00:15:06,900 --> 00:15:09,900 tables and something more normal cold start, for job at function 322 00:15:09,900 --> 00:15:12,000 will start in about, I would say, six seconds. 323 00:15:12,300 --> 00:15:14,300 If I build it as a negative image with gravel. 324 00:15:14,500 --> 00:15:17,100 It's about two seconds switch much better. 325 00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:20,100 The real course, at time of the other function of the guavian 326 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,800 function is, I don't know, 100 milliseconds, but then as it's 327 00:15:23,800 --> 00:15:26,500 inside as a functions, as a functions, need to download your 328 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:29,000 function to install it and zip it before running. 329 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:31,800 It quite a lot of things to do before, just reading it. 330 00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:34,200 It's not installed yet. So you'll first need to download 331 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,000 it and install it. So overall, it's taking two 332 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,000 seconds to do everything, including setting it up. 333 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,900 Maybe you can improve it a little bit, maybe can go below 334 00:15:42,900 --> 00:15:44,300 that. Maybe middle, one second. 335 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:46,800 Yeah, but only stay closed out of 2 seconds. 336 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,800 Should be good for most people, if it's not good for you. 337 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:52,300 Well, then you can go to is what I talked about earlier, you can 338 00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:54,000 pay and that's something which is always on. 339 00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:55,700 It's, of course, a bit more expensive. 340 00:15:55,700 --> 00:15:59,100 But if you got some very specific requirements, like, you 341 00:15:59,100 --> 00:16:02,000 want some functions which are very low latency, even when 342 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,300 there is called start. Well, then maybe at some point 343 00:16:04,300 --> 00:16:06,500 you need to pay. Hey, I forgot to say something 344 00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:08,600 very specific to as you are because I don't want people to 345 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,900 misunderstand what I'm talking about when I talk with course, 346 00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:14,700 starting earlier, it's quite different because that Other 347 00:16:14,700 --> 00:16:17,700 providers, if you take as a functions, for example, 348 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:20,400 basically on the first request you got to cross that. 349 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:23,200 So that is what is taking. Let's it to S then your 350 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:25,600 functions up for some time officially. 351 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:27,900 We don't tell the time but unofficially can tell you 20 352 00:16:27,900 --> 00:16:32,600 minutes and during the swim team uses a function stairs up and 353 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:34,600 and sort of multi threaded. So you can have multiple 354 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,500 requests on that function in parallel. 355 00:16:36,900 --> 00:16:39,800 So basically you have very few cars that if you have some 356 00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:43,400 customers arriving was the first one doing the first request, 357 00:16:43,500 --> 00:16:45,900 will have a cool start, but Then everybody will have a hot 358 00:16:45,900 --> 00:16:47,900 functions or nobody will have called that anymore. 359 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,400 So it's a very limited issue on urja. 360 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,900 So it's interesting to try to go around it because what it still 361 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:56,100 existing and also because technically it's fun. 362 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,700 That's also why I'm working on it. 363 00:16:57,700 --> 00:17:01,800 But yep, so you mentioned now you are becoming the developer 364 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:03,600 advocate for Java inside Microsoft. 365 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,900 So what is the attraction you see in terms of adoption? 366 00:17:06,900 --> 00:17:09,400 Maybe from a soup customers point of view or as your 367 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,700 developer's point of view. Do you still see a lot of people 368 00:17:12,700 --> 00:17:15,400 are getting back into the Group, so to speak. 369 00:17:15,599 --> 00:17:18,599 Because in the past few years, new languages came writers of 370 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,900 golang JavaScript and all that. So what is your view currently 371 00:17:22,900 --> 00:17:27,400 with the developer growth in terms of java in Azul ecosystem? 372 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,900 Well for us you it's very specific because so 373 00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,900 traditionally as you was attracting more dotnet people 374 00:17:33,900 --> 00:17:36,400 and so on. So we had significant amount of 375 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,600 people using Java on Azure, but it was less than or sore throat, 376 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,400 be honest. And also, as we don't have some 377 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,300 specific Java support, maybe we do. 378 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,200 It also know that very well people can run Java inside 379 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,200 Docker. I knew people believe that 380 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,200 Microsoft is spying and what everybody's doing, but honestly, 381 00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:54,500 if you weren't a Docker image it in, your could be discussed. 382 00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:56,400 ER, what do we know? We just know you wouldn't 383 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,800 communities and you've got some Decay, imagine it may be, but we 384 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,300 have no idea what you're doing inside it. 385 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:04,600 So I really read a lot of people using Java inside Docker, and by 386 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:06,300 the clear, we couldn't know much about it. 387 00:18:06,500 --> 00:18:10,300 So what I'm seeing today is more people using Java. 388 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:12,700 If we wearing a jean it's growing like crazy. 389 00:18:12,900 --> 00:18:14,300 First of all, because Java is big. 390 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,200 Also because we didn't have that many Java people using Azure and 391 00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:20,600 also, because we've got more and more Java companies joining the 392 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,400 cloud like Banks Banks and institutions governments, or 393 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,700 these people are very EV Java users and traditionally those 394 00:18:27,700 --> 00:18:30,200 people were not that much in the cloud yet in the cloud. 395 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,300 We mostly, I like startups. So yeah, startups are doing go 396 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:35,800 and rest Banks. And governments are awesome. 397 00:18:35,900 --> 00:18:39,500 What's he doing Java? So the more those people go to 398 00:18:39,500 --> 00:18:42,300 the cloud, which is arriving. Now, the more Java used as we 399 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:44,200 see in the clouds, also, wiser with all this push. 400 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,500 Fogwell, VM, startup time and so on. 401 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,100 It wasn't such an issue before, it's become an issue now because 402 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:53,300 all those people are arriving. So as you lot more people using 403 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:56,500 Java clearly on as room and then we've got maybe two types of 404 00:18:56,500 --> 00:18:58,900 people. We've got people running Java 405 00:18:58,900 --> 00:19:02,700 inside kubernetes. So, honestly, I have little 406 00:19:02,800 --> 00:19:05,200 information on what they are truly doing is just running a 407 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,800 container and then we've got people using giovanna's, you're 408 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:09,500 on our platform as a service offerings. 409 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:12,400 Like I just bring Cloud as you up service or so. 410 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,300 When the user was decay, of course, I see. 411 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,200 Using it, we've got some Telemetry which is optional. 412 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,000 If you accept to have the Telemetry, it's useful for us so 413 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:21,800 that we know what most people are doing. 414 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:24,400 So we know, we're all, so we need to push, like, if we know 415 00:19:24,400 --> 00:19:27,600 that everybody's using customers DBA with this set of API. 416 00:19:27,900 --> 00:19:29,900 Well, then we're going off course to do more effort on 417 00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:31,900 this. So please turn the Telemetry on 418 00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,400 if you want to help us, we got two types of people. 419 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,600 There are people who run it inside Docker and we manage more 420 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,400 and people will trust us to run the Java workloads. 421 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:43,900 And so that's why we get our own GDK, or we got our sewing, you 422 00:19:43,900 --> 00:19:45,900 manager. In system, so we got something 423 00:19:45,900 --> 00:19:48,600 called a pin sites. It has been existing in Asia 424 00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,200 for, I would say forever, but there's a new version, which is 425 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,100 arriving, which is the Java agent. 426 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:56,900 So, if you know, emergency systems like your new Village, 427 00:19:56,900 --> 00:19:59,700 you know, like those really cool and ions when heating systems we 428 00:19:59,708 --> 00:20:02,900 having something similar inside Algeria and the Java agent, of 429 00:20:02,900 --> 00:20:04,900 course on the sun Java, but it can also understand spring 430 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:08,700 boots, for example, so that means that at no cost is a 431 00:20:08,708 --> 00:20:11,700 Divergent is free, but then, of course, it's Gathering data, and 432 00:20:11,700 --> 00:20:14,100 if you store a lot of data, you will have some ghosts, but I 433 00:20:14,100 --> 00:20:17,400 would say Very little cost, you can have some very in-depth and 434 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,600 precise mentoring of your app, which is interesting for two 435 00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,300 things. First thing is, of course, for 436 00:20:21,300 --> 00:20:22,800 you. If you've got something which is 437 00:20:22,808 --> 00:20:25,000 not well coded. It's interesting to know, but 438 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,200 then the second thing is for scalability, because we can hook 439 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:31,200 it up with our Auto scalability Options in Asia. 440 00:20:31,500 --> 00:20:34,700 That means that instead of saying, when my CPU is up at 441 00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:37,500 80%, I want to scale up. That's a good metric that for 442 00:20:37,500 --> 00:20:40,700 Java is not that good. But you might better want to do 443 00:20:40,700 --> 00:20:44,500 is like, when Mike asked a queue is full, then I wont to Help, 444 00:20:44,500 --> 00:20:46,400 you know, when my thread pool is full. 445 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,400 Maybe you have got to sweat blood which is full but your CPU 446 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,100 is not working too much. Just your thread pool is full 447 00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,000 because it's doing something sweating or something. 448 00:20:54,500 --> 00:20:57,600 It's full you need to scale up. But your CPU is that full or 449 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,700 your memory is natural. And so you need something more 450 00:20:59,700 --> 00:21:03,100 precise and just having a look at CPU and memory and so that 451 00:21:03,100 --> 00:21:06,300 Java agent will be more precise and will allow you to scale 452 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:08,500 better, and scaling. Better is, of course, it's good 453 00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:10,800 for your customers because you can, please mark, you stammers. 454 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:13,500 Thanks to your scalability, but it's also good for your budget 455 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,000 because I'm always You know, scalability not only for going 456 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:18,600 up at a surfer going done. What you wanted with scalability 457 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,700 is to scale down as much as you can when you have less people 458 00:21:21,700 --> 00:21:24,000 using your systems. So it's I would say having a 459 00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,600 great metering system is little cost but then you can have grid 460 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,400 gain out of it. So, it's very exciting. 461 00:21:30,000 --> 00:21:32,800 So, let's go to the thing that brought you to all these to our 462 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:35,700 champion and becoming famous open source contributor. 463 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:38,800 So, Jacob says, sound, maybe, can you tell a story? 464 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:41,700 How did you start actually creating Jacob, sir? 465 00:21:41,900 --> 00:21:44,100 What kind of problem that you see, at that time? 466 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,900 Yes, so it was a long time ago, at that time, spring booted, 467 00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:50,200 that exist. So I had an idea which was a bit 468 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:53,300 similar to Spring which initially and also that time we 469 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:56,100 added something new which was arriving which was under RGS 470 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:59,500 just new front-end Frameworks. And so that was the poor July 471 00:21:59,500 --> 00:22:01,700 idea. But gifs with Java hipster 472 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,000 night, West Java for each stirs and for me tipsters where people 473 00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:08,400 were doing angularjs typically and I wanted something. 474 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:11,600 So when I say we I wasn't company and many of us had a 475 00:22:11,608 --> 00:22:14,000 similar issue. Basically, most of our customers 476 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,000 are what With saying, okay, we want to your spring but a spring 477 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,700 would be that exists. Basically work like copying and 478 00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:21,600 pasting. Huge XML files all the time. 479 00:22:22,100 --> 00:22:24,200 And also we want to front and and argue large. 480 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,000 Yes, is cool. We all want on eulogies. 481 00:22:26,300 --> 00:22:28,400 So at some point where you realize that we are like 20 482 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:30,600 clients and they were all asking for the same thing, you know, 483 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,400 like the same Global Springwood configuration and angularjs on 484 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,800 top of it. So, after doing it, for ten 485 00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:39,500 times, we realize, maybe we should determine that, which 486 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:41,100 might not be a good idea for Consulting. 487 00:22:41,100 --> 00:22:42,200 Companies. You know, much Consulting, 488 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:44,100 companies were very happy to sell the same thing over and 489 00:22:44,100 --> 00:22:45,400 over. Over again, to the customers, 490 00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:47,100 but my consulting company was good. 491 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:49,900 We didn't want to sell the same thing over and over to 492 00:22:49,900 --> 00:22:51,900 customers. So we wanted to automate it. 493 00:22:52,100 --> 00:22:54,900 So the original idea was just to automate what everybody wanted 494 00:22:54,900 --> 00:22:57,300 to do at that time. And so seven years ago. 495 00:22:57,300 --> 00:23:01,100 It was always spraying an angularjs since then it became 496 00:23:01,100 --> 00:23:03,900 completely crazy with Jeepster today. 497 00:23:03,900 --> 00:23:07,700 We support not only own Eula but also react and view on the front 498 00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,500 end and the back end with support Spring boot, but we also 499 00:23:10,500 --> 00:23:13,500 support quack, use and micro note, and we even support none, 500 00:23:13,500 --> 00:23:15,900 Java languages. Duck net on the GS. 501 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:19,900 So it became totally crazy. Today, Jeepster is more than 502 00:23:19,900 --> 00:23:22,200 organization. It's a nonprofit organization. 503 00:23:22,500 --> 00:23:24,400 We've got lots of two projects because of all just 504 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,400 Technologies. Most of my job today is trying 505 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:30,100 to organize this and not cutting any more just because it's too 506 00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:31,900 big. There's just too many people and 507 00:23:31,900 --> 00:23:34,600 20 different Technologies. Nobody can know, all those out 508 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,700 anyway, so I've got more work to organize, all of this. 509 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,500 I'm still following. I would say that occurs that I 510 00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:43,300 liked most, so I'm still following spring boot. 511 00:23:43,500 --> 00:23:45,600 I'm doing more. Yugi has there was an angular 512 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,100 but for supper, I have no idea what people in.net to. 513 00:23:48,300 --> 00:23:50,600 I'm only trusting them that what to do is great. 514 00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:54,300 So maybe there are some interesting stories as you 515 00:23:54,300 --> 00:23:56,300 created this and it becomes popular. 516 00:23:56,500 --> 00:23:59,700 What are some of the highlights that you can remember when it 517 00:23:59,700 --> 00:24:03,100 got traction or become so big that you didn't foresee before? 518 00:24:03,700 --> 00:24:05,600 Well, it's few Milestones that happen. 519 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,600 We're totally game-changing to me. 520 00:24:07,700 --> 00:24:11,200 So at one time I only remember, it was a summer and if so, 521 00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,400 what's going really big? I set it to have some really 522 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,500 good people. One of the colleagues of 523 00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:17,500 Jeepster with deep roody-poo joined. 524 00:24:17,700 --> 00:24:20,200 I had some really good people joining, but I was working on it 525 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,900 day and night so I just couldn't do it anymore. 526 00:24:22,900 --> 00:24:24,900 And also it was a Samoa took on ideas. 527 00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:26,900 And so at that time, I had one moment. 528 00:24:26,900 --> 00:24:29,700 Where, where do I do? Do I go no ideas for two months. 529 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,300 Oh, by the way, I was like, the only one who was committing 530 00:24:32,300 --> 00:24:35,500 stuff to the men, Bunch. So if I stopped like everything 531 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:37,900 was going to stop. So what do I do during the 532 00:24:37,900 --> 00:24:39,500 summer? Do I work or summer? 533 00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:42,300 Which honest is not that cool. Do I stop everything? 534 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:44,100 But then to put it is dead for two months. 535 00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:47,400 Which is like will be bad. Oh, do I give the support all of 536 00:24:47,408 --> 00:24:49,500 those people? Which is weird, because I didn't 537 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:52,000 know any of those. So, for example, for the pulpit, 538 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,400 like most of the other contributors, I didn't name, I 539 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,900 knew in sugita, but I had never met him. 540 00:24:57,100 --> 00:24:59,200 I don't even know if we talked on the phone. 541 00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:01,600 He was living in Singapore at the time as a way. 542 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,000 So do I trust people and give them the key to gipsa? 543 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,000 What should I do? And so glad you decided? 544 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,800 Yeah. It's open source or just people 545 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,500 seem really nice. That's when we created the core 546 00:25:12,500 --> 00:25:14,100 team of jimster. So I do too. 547 00:25:14,300 --> 00:25:16,500 About how many people got access at the beginning, but it was 548 00:25:16,500 --> 00:25:19,800 like, 10 people and all of those people got commit rights to 549 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:21,500 gesture and could do anything on it. 550 00:25:21,700 --> 00:25:25,700 And I want Al. So, we had maybe a few weeks 551 00:25:25,700 --> 00:25:29,100 when it was a bit weird, because we realize I was doing a lot of 552 00:25:29,100 --> 00:25:32,100 things that I didn't tell people about on testings and so on. 553 00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:35,100 So we had some bug for a few weeks and then everything fell 554 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:37,600 into place, everything worked perfectly very fast. 555 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,200 After that people, understood how it was working. 556 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,100 Everybody was trustworthy. I don't believe you go and come. 557 00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,000 Get an open source code for doing bad things. 558 00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,500 It would be very strong. So everybody would can was nice 559 00:25:48,500 --> 00:25:51,100 and trustworthy. Well, that's when we started 560 00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:53,200 like the which is the second phase of Jeepster when we have 561 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,900 more people and myself. And so we started to do stuff 562 00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:58,900 that I couldn't have done alone. So trust from your success. 563 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,700 I had to be forced to do it because of the summer but in the 564 00:26:02,700 --> 00:26:06,000 end was that one first phase of jeeps or was like I was doing 565 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,100 everything. Then second phase is we've got 566 00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:10,300 tons of people on laying it instead me anymore. 567 00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:12,400 And that was a very good decision. 568 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,900 So that's the first I liked. Second. 569 00:26:14,900 --> 00:26:18,800 I'd like, which also saved us some time later in Jeepster is 570 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,300 that we made? I don't know if it's an 571 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:23,000 agreement, a contract with open corrective. 572 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:25,700 So Point Collective is a platform together, phones for 573 00:26:25,700 --> 00:26:28,500 open source projects. It was being used by web pack. 574 00:26:28,700 --> 00:26:30,400 I'm friend with some people from webpack. 575 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,300 So I heard about it. So, thanks to them. 576 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:34,500 So we decided, let's try to find some sponsor. 577 00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:37,100 Let's try to find some money for a Jeepster initially. 578 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,500 We wanted like, 50, maybe 100 euro a month just to pick us. 579 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,400 We've got some girls, like things our website. 580 00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:44,100 I was paying everything with my own pocket. 581 00:26:44,300 --> 00:26:46,000 Away, so it wasn't very expensive. 582 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,000 But, you know, sometimes when the project was you said, okay, 583 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,900 I'm going to try to find some users so that I don't take 584 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:54,100 everything with my own bucket. So we're looking for maybe 100 585 00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:57,300 euro payments today. By the way, we're doing 100,000. 586 00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:00,500 You will that year? We've got a huge budget which is 587 00:27:00,600 --> 00:27:03,600 maybe even too big now. So we started that. 588 00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:06,800 So now we making turn off when it was it, which wasn't expected 589 00:27:06,900 --> 00:27:09,600 and that has totally changed the way we are working. 590 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,800 Now for dipster. First of all, you got money to 591 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,100 pay for the legal stuff branding. 592 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:17,000 Also stuff social project is very well protected, which can 593 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:18,900 sometimes be an issue. So we got two good legal 594 00:27:18,900 --> 00:27:21,500 protection or so when we do conference, we've got an 595 00:27:21,500 --> 00:27:23,200 insurance. Everything is legally within 596 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:23,500 his. Well. 597 00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:25,900 Don't say that, the first thing, the second thing I forgot to 598 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:28,100 say, it's at its own by your nonprofit. 599 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:29,400 I can't make any money out of it. 600 00:27:29,700 --> 00:27:31,800 I'm just one of the member of the nonprofit. 601 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,700 There is no shares. You need to nonprofit. 602 00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:36,100 I'm just one of the member of the nonprofit organization. 603 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:39,300 That's very important, because I believe that if people start to 604 00:27:39,300 --> 00:27:42,600 make it a real job, it wouldn't be her OB and wouldn't be fun 605 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:44,100 anymore. It would break everything down. 606 00:27:44,700 --> 00:27:47,800 And such things that happen and which really adds a project is 607 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,500 that we set it to give Bug bounties. 608 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,200 So a bug bounty on jeffster is, for example, we've got a 609 00:27:53,208 --> 00:27:55,600 situated issue. We've got something which has 610 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,500 very complex and very annoying to do something, which is very 611 00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:00,600 long for also sings. We're not very good. 612 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,700 We're very good at small and fun task, you know, you want to 613 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,100 upgrade to the new version of Android springboard. 614 00:28:07,100 --> 00:28:09,600 With this cool new feature. Everybody wants to do this, but 615 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,400 Li you do it in 2 hours. It's super fun. 616 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,200 Everybody wants to do it. There's no issue with it. 617 00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:17,200 But as soon as we go, Something, which is annoying long, or very 618 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,000 urgent security issue, we bad because we are beast. 619 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,200 So, thanks to back, bunty's know, we pay money to people 620 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,500 when we've got something like this. 621 00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:27,300 It goes between 100 and 500 dollars. 622 00:28:27,500 --> 00:28:28,500 So it's good. I would have won. 623 00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:31,100 If it's not enough to leave nominee because it's time to go, 624 00:28:31,100 --> 00:28:34,500 you just to push some people to do stuff that wouldn't have been 625 00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:37,700 done easily otherwise and it really opened up new 626 00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:39,900 possibilities for us. So there's a huge number of 627 00:28:39,900 --> 00:28:41,500 things. We were totally stuck on them 628 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,800 and sends to that money. We get totally instead. 629 00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:46,500 Because we will tell people. Okay, I give you five hundred 630 00:28:46,500 --> 00:28:49,400 dollar issuance take me on this and suddenly thanks to the magic 631 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,900 of money. Some stuff become possible that 632 00:28:51,900 --> 00:28:53,700 which is impossible. If you don't pay people. 633 00:28:53,900 --> 00:28:55,900 Well, that was a good lesson because it's not something that 634 00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:57,200 we prepared. We didn't think of this. 635 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:58,700 We never thought we would have that money. 636 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:02,100 But clearly it was like the second step of the project where 637 00:29:02,100 --> 00:29:04,900 we could do stuff that wasn't possible before just because we 638 00:29:04,900 --> 00:29:08,100 have the money to pay for it. So that definitely helps and I 639 00:29:08,100 --> 00:29:10,900 can't thank you open Collective enough for doing all this and 640 00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:12,800 also managing the legal part of it. 641 00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,500 What people also don't don't see that behind it. 642 00:29:15,500 --> 00:29:18,400 So there's a company's open Collective on the all the legal 643 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,400 tax issues, everything. So for example, if you in 644 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:23,000 France, like me, you need to be taxes. 645 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:25,300 We're not doing this, like, some black market stuff. 646 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:29,100 So the only thing all the taxes and everything, so it's really 647 00:29:29,100 --> 00:29:31,800 important for us that we have something which is fully legal, 648 00:29:31,900 --> 00:29:34,000 especially, because now we got some good amount of money. 649 00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:36,200 I couldn't have done this alone. It's just impossible. 650 00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,200 So I'm very happy with my collaboration with a company 651 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,100 open Collective because they have enabled us to do so much 652 00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:46,200 and so easily hearing your Neil's been like a huge success 653 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,800 and so many things that you didn't predict before, there are 654 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,800 so many open source projects these days as well. 655 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,500 And people are trying to also build their open source to 656 00:29:53,500 --> 00:29:55,600 become a successful one, just like the Hipster. 657 00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,000 So what will be some of your tips for those people who are 658 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,600 doing open source project as well. 659 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,900 So the first thing was Jeepster that made it work was indeed 660 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:07,500 that we didn't want to make it work. 661 00:30:07,700 --> 00:30:10,300 You know, I wasn't thinking about having anything serious. 662 00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:12,800 So like I often have people criticizing the name because 663 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,300 it's supposed to be fun. No or squared. 664 00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,100 But what is true is that it's a very short world and very funny. 665 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:20,700 Initially. A lot of we'll just add a look 666 00:30:20,700 --> 00:30:22,300 at it because it was unique and fun. 667 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,800 The second thing that made it work is that I as a chance to of 668 00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:27,700 this committee arriving in the end. 669 00:30:27,700 --> 00:30:30,600 It's all about the community. I couldn't have done it alone. 670 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,000 It's not possible. So, in order to have the 671 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,400 community, I would say that two important things. 672 00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:39,900 The technical part adjuster is returned in a very woodsy. 673 00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:42,500 Easy simple, maybe even stupid way. 674 00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:45,200 If you have a look at our templates, This is a very bad. 675 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,500 They're only a year so that it's easy to edit them know, they're 676 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:50,700 not clever at all. It's very simple stuff. 677 00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:53,900 The idea is that, if you're very good at that Docker, I'm taking 678 00:30:53,900 --> 00:30:56,500 one example out of many, of course, you know, something very 679 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:58,600 specific about Docker. You an expert on one part. 680 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,200 I want you to be able to contribute very easily, and for 681 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,200 that, I don't want to have a system, which is very complex, 682 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:05,400 very smart because you will not be able to contribute. 683 00:31:05,500 --> 00:31:07,900 I want you to have a very simple complex language. 684 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,100 Very stupidly written. We using a language called EGS. 685 00:31:11,100 --> 00:31:13,200 It's JavaScript. Basically, it's someplace with 686 00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:15,700 JavaScript. It's Able, but that means that 687 00:31:15,700 --> 00:31:18,200 any expecting any technology can contribute very easily. 688 00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:22,000 So, the first thing we did, and unless it was random luck on 689 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:23,600 this. Well, next time I do it. 690 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:24,800 No, it's not random like anymore. 691 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:26,900 But when I did it for Jupiter, it was random. 692 00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:28,300 Look. Is that I took something? 693 00:31:28,300 --> 00:31:30,900 Which is really simple. So, anybody could contribute, we 694 00:31:30,900 --> 00:31:34,500 had some competitors where much smarter and I had a look at the 695 00:31:34,500 --> 00:31:36,500 system. It was incredibly smart, but 696 00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:38,500 then nobody can contribute because nobody would understand 697 00:31:38,500 --> 00:31:39,900 it. When the stat, the most 698 00:31:39,900 --> 00:31:43,000 important thing is that it's easy to make people contribute 699 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,400 and the second thing. Wicked on Jeepster is of course, 700 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,900 only on the human part is try to have as much people as possible 701 00:31:50,100 --> 00:31:52,300 for that. It's a question of comity. 702 00:31:52,300 --> 00:31:55,200 Oh, you build a community and what people do you want in your 703 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,400 community? For example, where one of the 704 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,600 very first project to have a code of conduct? 705 00:31:59,900 --> 00:32:02,800 I'm a huge fan of code of conducts for two reasons, the 706 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,200 first one as soon as we had a code of conduct. 707 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,700 I saw challenging on the way we were welcoming people. 708 00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,900 I believe we were always nice but as soon as we add a code of 709 00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:13,400 conduct saying when somebody comes, we need to be nice with 710 00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:15,500 that person. Well, then we become nicer just 711 00:32:15,500 --> 00:32:18,800 because we said we would do it. There was really a challenge and 712 00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,200 know when people join the project, you know, when you do 713 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,800 your first pull request you often have people saying well, 714 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:25,900 congratulations. Thank you for your first pull 715 00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:28,100 request. It feels weird, maybe at the 716 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,900 beginning and that's maybe why we were not doing it initially. 717 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,900 But if you put yourself in the shoes of that new person, you 718 00:32:33,900 --> 00:32:36,200 may be the first time it's contributing to any open source 719 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,200 project. It can be very intimidating and 720 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:40,900 then you got several people telling you a thank-you. 721 00:32:40,900 --> 00:32:43,200 That's cool. Well, it pushes those people to 722 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,300 continue that. First thing, it's just being 723 00:32:45,300 --> 00:32:48,300 nice, but it's important. And then the code of conduct 724 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,200 also is enforcing stuff, that's less nice heart. 725 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:54,800 But sometimes you've got people who are just not nice that toxic 726 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,200 people. It happens. 727 00:32:56,500 --> 00:32:59,400 I have met a few of them. And basically, it's a choice of 728 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:02,400 governance for your project. But if you have one toxic 729 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,600 person, even if he's super good technically in my opinion is 730 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,400 going to wreck everything. Everybody will create, it will 731 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,100 be a nightmare. So you need to identify those 732 00:33:11,100 --> 00:33:14,000 people as soon as you can and just make them go away. 733 00:33:14,100 --> 00:33:15,800 Wait, there are different ways to make them go away. 734 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:17,200 But thanks to the code of conduct. 735 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,600 The most extreme saying is that when you've got somebody with 736 00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,800 addressing the other people, while you can banish him from 737 00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:24,100 the project. I got different example, I've 738 00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:27,500 got an example which is I would say Fern because the people will 739 00:33:27,500 --> 00:33:29,200 get kicked out of. We're happy about it. 740 00:33:29,500 --> 00:33:33,500 So we got some sponsoring on the Gypsy project from some company 741 00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,700 who push for some with adult entertainment stuff. 742 00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:38,600 I mean, it's surgical just like the know. 743 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,600 There's mostly men work in open source. 744 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,000 It's a good Target for them. So basically, they wanted to 745 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,500 push advertisement for Dude, stuff, unzips her. 746 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:48,500 Since the could have collect. We're like a legal agreement 747 00:33:48,500 --> 00:33:50,500 saying, okay. This is what you can do is this 748 00:33:50,500 --> 00:33:53,800 is what you can do and you're totally in the option. 749 00:33:54,100 --> 00:33:56,800 So, we're going to kick you out and they understood it. 750 00:33:56,900 --> 00:33:58,800 We pay them back. By the way, the sponsor is so 751 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,300 they give us some money. We give them money back. 752 00:34:00,300 --> 00:34:02,700 Of course, I would say, everybody was happy about it. 753 00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:04,300 But thanks for the code of conduct. 754 00:34:04,300 --> 00:34:07,900 We can officially limit what people do and can't do and it's 755 00:34:07,900 --> 00:34:10,699 very important to remove toxic people or companies. 756 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:12,600 Well, in that case wasn't a taxi company. 757 00:34:12,900 --> 00:34:15,400 People behaving in A way you would not like in your 758 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:17,699 community. By the way, if there are any 759 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:21,300 minorities, especially women in th it's a huge issue in Tech in 760 00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:23,699 general, but it's even worse in open source. 761 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,300 Will get that issue in juicer like every other open source 762 00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:28,100 project. So if we have a look at our 763 00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:31,100 stats that are very bad, but we're a little bit better than 764 00:34:31,100 --> 00:34:32,900 other project because it's so bad everywhere. 765 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:35,699 I would like to have more women contributing to open source and 766 00:34:35,699 --> 00:34:38,600 especially to Jeepster. Of course, if we had some adult 767 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,900 entertainment advertisement on Jeep sir, it will not work. 768 00:34:42,100 --> 00:34:44,000 That's why you could have conduct is very important. 769 00:34:44,199 --> 00:34:47,800 If we want those women to join, us feel safe, feel welcomed. 770 00:34:47,900 --> 00:34:49,800 Well, we need to have an environment, that makes them 771 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,100 feel safe, and welcome. So that's very important while. 772 00:34:53,100 --> 00:34:56,000 Maybe that would be the next Frontier for Jeepster is finding 773 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,300 a good way to have more diversity, especially women in 774 00:34:59,300 --> 00:35:01,400 our team. It's something we've been 775 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,300 pushing and working on for several years with some success. 776 00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:07,800 We have some women contributing is not all that bad, but I would 777 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:09,600 have liked to have something much better than what we 778 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,200 currently have today. So, if you are woman and listen 779 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,500 to this podcast, Please join us. We will do everything to help 780 00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:18,500 you. In terms of project. 781 00:35:18,500 --> 00:35:20,900 We will monitor you. We will do everything that we 782 00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:24,700 can to help you be part of the project because I really feel we 783 00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:26,600 have an issue are generally interact. 784 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,300 With the most impact. I can have his on my own 785 00:35:28,300 --> 00:35:30,100 project. So I'm going to push first for 786 00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:32,500 my project. Thanks for sharing the 787 00:35:32,500 --> 00:35:35,700 importance of code of conduct. I think most of the open source 788 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,000 create there won't be thinking about that. 789 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,400 And also thanks for sharing the fun story as well. 790 00:35:40,500 --> 00:35:42,500 It's really interesting it to hear that. 791 00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:45,400 So let's move on to the Developer advocacy that you 792 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,200 mentioned in the beginning. So you mentioned companies where 793 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:52,100 you are at now Microsoft or go right in terms of development. 794 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,400 Advocacy. One of the things that is very 795 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,600 interesting is that they leave you totally free in terms of 796 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:01,000 stating opinions and also credibility point of view. 797 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,100 Maybe you can share a little bit on that front. 798 00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:05,100 What is the purpose of having developer? 799 00:36:05,100 --> 00:36:08,500 Advocacy that is flexible and free to say things. 800 00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:10,900 Yeah. So for sure not everybody has 801 00:36:10,900 --> 00:36:12,200 got the same definition of developer. 802 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,800 Advocacy. I see a lot of Companies 803 00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,800 typically, in France by because I'm living here and they make 804 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:19,800 developer. Advocacy, part of marketing for 805 00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:21,400 them. It's only people, you pay for a 806 00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:23,400 conference eat. And then the person goes on 807 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,400 stage and they'll agree to put the keys and the toll, it can be 808 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,500 a different issue, and I believe it to tell you want to do that. 809 00:36:28,500 --> 00:36:30,300 But I respect her to that opinion. 810 00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,900 Act. Microsoft is very different. 811 00:36:31,900 --> 00:36:34,900 So if I take my team, for example, let me just tell you 812 00:36:34,900 --> 00:36:37,900 what I was just doing, like just before our meeting, I'm prepping 813 00:36:37,900 --> 00:36:40,500 spring one, which is a Big Spring Java conference. 814 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:43,100 So it's very important for us. I'm going to speak there. 815 00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,100 I was selected. Screw the cfp and officially I 816 00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:50,200 should not as a dip, but forget be selected for sponsorship. 817 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:52,800 The girl in my team is that were selected because of our own 818 00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,100 value. So, screw cfp, sometimes we do 819 00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:58,600 also sponsor stuff and probably will do it at Spring wind, to be 820 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,500 honest. Because we also sponsor, so it's 821 00:37:00,500 --> 00:37:03,300 sometimes a bit complicated. Microsoft is everywhere, and 822 00:37:03,300 --> 00:37:05,400 probably the people from marketing with pay for the 823 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,100 sponsorship will be able to reverse talking but officially 824 00:37:08,100 --> 00:37:11,900 normally, we should only be selected because of our own 825 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:14,400 Merit. So we go through cfp like Buddy, 826 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,200 we don't pay and then we can talk about everything. 827 00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:20,700 We liked or disliked one. I would say Java and Microsoft 828 00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:23,000 or even not Microsoft. It's very open. 829 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,800 The goal of Microsoft is to level 1 level. 830 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:28,000 Of course just to show people. That Microsoft is doing some 831 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,300 cool stuff on Java. That's all you attract people to 832 00:37:30,300 --> 00:37:32,500 Microsoft sir. That's I would say the most 833 00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,300 obvious reason why you do developer advocacy, but then 834 00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:37,900 there's another reason is that you want to have feedback from 835 00:37:37,900 --> 00:37:40,800 developers if I go to conference, but I'm also 836 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,400 interested is to have people coming to me and telling me, 837 00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:45,200 okay. I'm not using you as a because 838 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:48,100 of this, this is so bad. I don't want to use it or I'm 839 00:37:48,100 --> 00:37:50,900 using almond a very strange way because that doesn't shoot me 840 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,700 and that's a lot more important to us because that's how you fix 841 00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:56,200 the problems inside. As you, we can't do it by 842 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,500 ourselves physically because with to into the project, if I 843 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,500 talk to the engineers of others, as buying all the time doing as 844 00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:04,700 your engineering, so they know it very well, but of course they 845 00:38:04,700 --> 00:38:06,700 are. I would say looked inside the 846 00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:08,800 ideas and it's starting to be the same with me. 847 00:38:09,100 --> 00:38:10,700 I've been at Microsoft for too long. 848 00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:13,700 Now I start to believe as you way of doing things is the best 849 00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:16,000 way of doing things because that's what I've been doing for 850 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,300 years. If I want to have new opinions, 851 00:38:18,300 --> 00:38:20,300 new ideas. I need to go to see those people 852 00:38:20,300 --> 00:38:21,700 who are going to tell me what's wrong. 853 00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,100 That's super important because that's how you improve your 854 00:38:24,100 --> 00:38:26,000 products. And that's why people then 855 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,200 choose your product. For me. 856 00:38:27,207 --> 00:38:29,700 It's a part of marketing melted in the good sense of way. 857 00:38:29,900 --> 00:38:32,800 Marketing is also finding the good product for the market. 858 00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:34,300 It's not just, you know, advertisement. 859 00:38:34,300 --> 00:38:36,700 It's also creating the best product for the market. 860 00:38:36,700 --> 00:38:38,700 And for that, you need to go into the market and see what 861 00:38:38,700 --> 00:38:40,800 people want. I'm doing a lot of terraform. 862 00:38:41,000 --> 00:38:43,500 It's not a Microsoft product inside as you if you want to 863 00:38:43,508 --> 00:38:45,500 deploy. Up to Azure, but if you want to 864 00:38:45,508 --> 00:38:48,300 generate you infrastructure, we've got arm, which is our 865 00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:50,700 official language. We've got a new thing called be 866 00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:52,400 sap, which is very close to 1 by the way. 867 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:54,300 So we've got our own tools for that. 868 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:57,300 Then the styrofoam, which is a third party tool, which is, in 869 00:38:57,300 --> 00:38:59,600 my opinion, very good, but it's not a Microsoft product. 870 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,200 So if I only talked to Microsoft people, everybody going to tell 871 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:05,600 me use our Muse, Beast by set, use the as your CLI, use the 872 00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,400 other tools. Nobody's going to tell me you 873 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,100 stole a van because it's not a Microsoft or but then if I go to 874 00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:13,300 conferences, I know I'm going to have 99% of people telling me 875 00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:14,800 your strength. It's a lot better. 876 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,300 If I don't do conferences, I don't have that feedback. 877 00:39:17,300 --> 00:39:19,900 And then I don't know what we need to push, that's because of 878 00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:22,200 that. So if I take as a spring Cloud, 879 00:39:22,300 --> 00:39:24,700 so it's a Wellspring offering and working lock on it. 880 00:39:24,900 --> 00:39:26,600 We have just released first wrinkled. 881 00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:28,300 We have just withdrawn from support. 882 00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,200 So why do we do to have some support? 883 00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,500 And as a sprinkler is that because we know that people want 884 00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:35,900 to read from, but if we don't do that initial work of thing, 885 00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,800 people listening to them while we don't know and we wouldn't 886 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,500 have probably done that to a Firm support something. 887 00:39:41,500 --> 00:39:43,900 If you look at IDE plugins, we do. 888 00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:46,900 Just your cards, probably would mostly focus on Biggio. 889 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,800 Well, we've got some great plugins, you know, as a plug-ins 890 00:39:49,800 --> 00:39:52,800 for intelligent. Why do we do it for intelligence 891 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:54,400 because we know developers using trilogy. 892 00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:56,800 But how do we know that? It's because we have got such 893 00:39:56,800 --> 00:39:58,900 relationship with developers. We go. 894 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,000 Where's our? We listen to them and they tell 895 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:03,200 us that most of the Java developers are using IntelliJ. 896 00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:06,000 So that's also why we know that we need to do that work. 897 00:40:06,300 --> 00:40:09,000 So the web advocacy is all about 12 that connection with the 898 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:13,300 local community, which is AD and which can only happen Trudy if 899 00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:15,500 you are. Independent and not whether 900 00:40:15,500 --> 00:40:18,200 thing area, if you're not a marketing guy, if you're only if 901 00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,000 our marketing people don't trust you or don't listen to you. 902 00:40:21,300 --> 00:40:24,200 If you want to add that orthotic connection where you have what 903 00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,500 really people won't, you need to do something else? 904 00:40:26,900 --> 00:40:28,500 That's what we're trying to do. I hope we do it. 905 00:40:28,500 --> 00:40:31,900 Well, so in terms of the last few years, Microsoft has been 906 00:40:31,900 --> 00:40:35,500 changing a lot in terms of Open Source, adoption being open as 907 00:40:35,500 --> 00:40:37,400 well regarding Technologies and all that. 908 00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:41,400 Maybe a little bit of summary in the last maybe few months or so. 909 00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,900 How is the open source culture in? 910 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,200 Actually becoming so Microsoft has done a lot of Open Source. 911 00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,600 People don't realize it but stuff like Visual Studio code, 912 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,100 it's Microsoft and used by. I would say every developers on 913 00:40:53,107 --> 00:40:55,800 the planet might be one of the biggest a project. 914 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,500 And we also contribute to very big about this project, like the 915 00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:01,000 - lots of Engineers working in communities. 916 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,900 So there's a huge Microsoft culture on open-source today, of 917 00:41:04,900 --> 00:41:07,300 course, not for everything at Microsoft, but at least four 918 00:41:07,300 --> 00:41:10,200 other, uh, part of it. I was thinking about Windows but 919 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,900 Windows is not open source, but big parts of Windows are now my 920 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:15,700 That example is your windows calculator. 921 00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:18,200 It's open source, you can do pull, request, and maybe the 922 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,100 next version of the windows calculator will have your 923 00:41:20,100 --> 00:41:23,600 coordinate so more and more open source at Microsoft, and also 924 00:41:23,600 --> 00:41:26,100 more and more, Microsoft, people contributing to open source, 925 00:41:26,100 --> 00:41:29,400 web, push to contribute with some singles, open-source 926 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:31,700 office. But what I really like about 927 00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:34,800 their work is so first of all, we've got the framework to open 928 00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,200 source what we do. Basically, the self-service 929 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,800 portal which is open source, by the way, so you can go through 930 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,100 that portal and say, okay, I would like to take this GitHub 931 00:41:43,100 --> 00:41:45,300 repository. And to be sheet as open source 932 00:41:45,300 --> 00:41:47,500 inside, the Microsoft organization on GitHub. 933 00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,300 And so, depending on what you do know, if it's something very 934 00:41:50,300 --> 00:41:51,300 simple. It's very easy. 935 00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:54,100 If you want to do something more complex, you need to go to 936 00:41:54,100 --> 00:41:56,200 several complaints steps for legal. 937 00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,000 They're going to have a look at your trademarks. 938 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,400 Maybe you took a name which is trademarked and you shouldn't, 939 00:42:01,500 --> 00:42:04,100 so you get different steps with. It's all automated cell to work 940 00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:06,000 for for this and everything is done. 941 00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:09,000 So that it's very easy for you to publish stuff as open source, 942 00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:12,000 and in return. Also, that open source office as 943 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,800 a grant. I think it's every month. 944 00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:16,200 With the grunting ten thousand dollars to an open source 945 00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:18,000 project. So at Microsoft when you 946 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,000 contribute to open source during that month, you've got voting 947 00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,500 rights for this. So basically they're going to 948 00:42:23,500 --> 00:42:25,800 push you to contribute because if you contribute then you will 949 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,900 have some benefits including voting for giving ten thousand 950 00:42:28,900 --> 00:42:30,700 dollars to give away to purchase project. 951 00:42:30,700 --> 00:42:34,000 There's really a huge push for doing open to that Microsoft, 952 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,600 which is surprising for many people, but that's how it is 953 00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:37,600 today. Either way. 954 00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,800 I believe everything I do is open source at Microsoft, 955 00:42:40,900 --> 00:42:43,800 everything I can think of right now that I've done at Microsoft. 956 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,500 Open source. Maybe I fixed a few stuff which 957 00:42:46,500 --> 00:42:49,000 were and, but I would say, Okay, 95% of five. 958 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,500 I've been doing it because of the is open source, which is 959 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:54,100 yeah, very surprising. Thanks for sharing that. 960 00:42:54,100 --> 00:42:56,500 I mean, like, I use personally, I haven't seen it in that way. 961 00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:59,400 But I know that Microsoft has been doing a lot of Open Source 962 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,600 projects products, they live. So it's really good to hear from 963 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:04,900 you yourself working internal in Microsoft. 964 00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:07,000 Some of the things that Microsoft has been doing for 965 00:43:07,000 --> 00:43:10,200 open source, but Julian is been a pleasure talking to you, 966 00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,700 unfortunately, due to the time we have to come to the end but 967 00:43:13,700 --> 00:43:16,300 before For I, let you go. I normally ask one question that 968 00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:19,200 I always ask all my guests wishes to share three technical 969 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,400 leadership wisdom for all of us to done from. 970 00:43:21,700 --> 00:43:24,400 So, could you share yours? Okay. 971 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,300 So the first one I go for this. The first thing I got at 972 00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:30,900 Microsoft when I became a manager and I realize it's the 973 00:43:30,900 --> 00:43:32,500 same thing. I've been doing at Jeepster but 974 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:34,400 without seeking of it, but it's better. 975 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,400 When you think of it first is that when you become a manager, 976 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,000 you're not in charge anymore, of doing things, you're in charge 977 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,000 of the people who are in charge of doing things. 978 00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:44,900 So, I realize I'm doing this, is something a So not injector. 979 00:43:45,100 --> 00:43:47,800 I was initially cutting everything and now I'm in charge 980 00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,500 of the people cutting, that's very important, and that a 981 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:53,200 perfect person. I'm still contributing and doing 982 00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:56,300 curl and doing covers dogs. But then if you want your team 983 00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:59,700 to succeed, you need to go out of the way and help people 984 00:43:59,700 --> 00:44:01,600 succeed. So first thing is that, you're 985 00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,800 not in charge you in charge of the people, the second thing we 986 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:06,500 talked a little bit about it earlier. 987 00:44:06,500 --> 00:44:09,500 It's about diversity. If your manager basically you're 988 00:44:09,500 --> 00:44:12,200 building up a team or you have an existing team, but you still 989 00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:13,800 have some impact on the people inside. 990 00:44:13,900 --> 00:44:16,300 The team. If everybody sings the same 991 00:44:16,300 --> 00:44:18,600 words, the same access them. Nothing you're not doing to 992 00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:20,400 succeed but you're not going to go very far. 993 00:44:20,500 --> 00:44:23,000 If I take Jeepster, we will still be doing angular and 994 00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,200 Springwood only. We would not be doing react and 995 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:27,900 you, we would not be doing the GS. 996 00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,100 It wouldn't be successful as it is today. 997 00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:33,800 So, when I said you visited into a very broad term, but I think 998 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:35,900 people from different background, different culture, 999 00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:38,100 different genders, etc. Etc. 1000 00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:40,600 Helps you 12. Different views on what you are 1001 00:44:40,607 --> 00:44:43,500 doing and Indian. It's because we've got all so 1002 00:44:43,500 --> 00:44:45,300 different. Paul Wilson differently that you 1003 00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:48,000 got a product that is better for everyone. 1004 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:50,200 Because if you want to believe that works for everyone while 1005 00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:53,300 you need to build it with everyone, the last thing I had 1006 00:44:53,300 --> 00:44:56,100 that's also mostly from Jeepster, but it's also a major 1007 00:44:56,100 --> 00:44:59,000 really work at Microsoft. So my third tip would be a 1008 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:00,500 french guy. So I'm going to quote, another 1009 00:45:00,500 --> 00:45:02,400 french guy. I don't think, you know, on to 1010 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,300 understand take GPA is a famous French writer with something 1011 00:45:06,300 --> 00:45:07,600 called. Look pretty pass. 1012 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,600 The Little Prince public in English, this famous quote. 1013 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,800 So I'm going to try to translate it in English, but it's are so 1014 00:45:13,900 --> 00:45:16,700 typically, if you want to build a ship, you're not going to tell 1015 00:45:16,700 --> 00:45:19,200 people to gather would divide your work. 1016 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,800 Give orders. If you want to successfully 1017 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:24,200 build a ship. You need to tell people to look 1018 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,400 for the vast and own list. See you need to give them a girl 1019 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:29,400 which is beyond what they are doing. 1020 00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:32,000 The same thing with jip. So if you have a look at Jeb 1021 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,600 sir, we're not telling her we're doing the most incredible 1022 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,700 JavaScript code and the most precise Docker configuration 1023 00:45:38,100 --> 00:45:40,300 watch with telling people is that thanks to JB sir. 1024 00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:43,300 You're going to build the most beautiful web application ever. 1025 00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,500 We're not Intending Springwood with telling where framework to 1026 00:45:46,500 --> 00:45:48,900 make you more productive. It's the same thing at 1027 00:45:48,900 --> 00:45:52,200 Microsoft, when we talk about Azure with the King, thanks to 1028 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,500 our, you're going to be more efficient, more productive. 1029 00:45:54,500 --> 00:45:57,300 You will be the best people on the planet because you will be 1030 00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:00,000 more efficient for the kids and other people open source is all 1031 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,200 about inspiring people to go somewhere. 1032 00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:05,200 Well, you need to have a, why, why are you doing it while we're 1033 00:46:05,200 --> 00:46:06,800 doing it? Because we want to do the best 1034 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,200 thing in the world, just for Jeep. 1035 00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,500 So we want to have developers build the most beautiful and 1036 00:46:11,500 --> 00:46:13,600 efficient web application in no time. 1037 00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:15,400 Or I will use a new purse project. 1038 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,300 Conniption going to prediction on Azure is only one. 1039 00:46:18,300 --> 00:46:21,000 Get push away. We telling you you're going to 1040 00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,000 go to production very easily. That's the goal and we're not 1041 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:25,700 telling okay. If you want to use an object, 1042 00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:28,800 then you need to do some tourism stuff and some guitar actions. 1043 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,600 We don't go into the details like this. 1044 00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,200 It's not inspiring. Nobody's going to be interested 1045 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,500 by having the best GitHub action, and to reform, and Java 1046 00:46:36,500 --> 00:46:39,000 code generator in the world. It's not what you do. 1047 00:46:39,000 --> 00:46:41,000 It's why you do it and why are you doing it? 1048 00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:43,800 You're doing it because you want to be more productive because 1049 00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:46,800 Wanted to go to production, very fast and very easily and you're 1050 00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:49,200 not focusing on what you're doing because what you're doing 1051 00:46:49,200 --> 00:46:52,300 is bowing. Hey, thanks for sharing that 1052 00:46:52,300 --> 00:46:55,200 tips for passing on the wire instead of the what as a leader. 1053 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,000 Right? I think that really sums it up 1054 00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,400 really nicely. So thanks again for your time. 1055 00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:01,800 So if people wants to connect with you find you online. 1056 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,000 Find your open source project where they can find you 1057 00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,500 actually. So you can find me First on 1058 00:47:06,500 --> 00:47:09,300 Twitter. It's actually and you were on 1059 00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:12,500 Twitter, they can find me on GitHub, but on GitHub small, 1060 00:47:12,500 --> 00:47:14,900 commit and stuff, so, it's not that At fun, they can find you 1061 00:47:14,908 --> 00:47:18,500 on LinkedIn, small professional, but I would say, yeah, most of 1062 00:47:18,500 --> 00:47:21,200 the time, it's on Twitter. I'm on Twitter all day long, so 1063 00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:24,800 it's probably the easiest way to find me and to interact with me. 1064 00:47:25,000 --> 00:47:27,600 I love chatting on Twitter. I really see that as social 1065 00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:28,700 media. I don't see Twitter. 1066 00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:31,100 I just meet publishing stuff. I say it, like chatting with 1067 00:47:31,100 --> 00:47:33,100 other people, so it's a two-way communication. 1068 00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:34,600 So, please don't hesitate to ping me. 1069 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,000 Mention me from all your questions about Azure, or what 1070 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,100 you want to build. It's always interesting. 1071 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:42,500 Thanks, Julian. Thanks again for your time. 1072 00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:45,000 So we should good luck with The open source projects are you 1073 00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,600 doing and all the developer? Advocacy that you're doing at 1074 00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:49,500 Microsoft as well? Thank you. 1075 00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:55,600 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 1076 00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:58,400 till the end. If you're highly enjoyed, please 1077 00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,200 share it with your friends and colleagues who you think would 1078 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,000 also benefit from listening to this episode. 1079 00:48:04,300 --> 00:48:07,100 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 1080 00:48:07,100 --> 00:48:10,000 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 1081 00:48:10,200 --> 00:48:13,900 It really, really helps me a lot in order to grow these podcasts 1082 00:48:13,900 --> 00:48:16,400 better. You can also find the full show 1083 00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,000 notes of this conversation on the episode page at technology. 1084 00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:23,400 No, the death website including During the full transcript, 1085 00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:27,000 interesting quotes and links to the resources and mentions from 1086 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:29,800 the conversation. And lastly make sure to 1087 00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,300 subscribe to the show's mailing list on technology. 1088 00:48:32,300 --> 00:48:35,700 No, the deaf to get notified for any future episodes. 1089 00:48:36,100 --> 00:48:38,800 Stay tuned for the next technique Journal episode. 1090 00:48:38,900 --> 00:48:40,500 And until then. Goodbye.