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Business agility is a set of 
organizational capabilities 

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behaviors and ways of working 
that afford your business. 

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The freedom flexibility and 
resilience to achieve. 

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Its purpose no matter what the 
future brings capabilities, 

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behaviors and ways of working 
many organizations will adopt 

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the ways of working, but they 
don't change the behaviors. 

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And they don't create new 
capabilities in the 

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organization. 
And so would say that they're 

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doing agile, not being agile. 
And that's unfortunately quite 

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limiting. 
So you need all three to be 

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effective. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya with 
Robin. 

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And you're listening to the 
tekhelet Juno, the show will be 

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Journey ideas and practices that
we all can learn and apply to 

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impact in your personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hello again, to all my listeners
out there. 

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It's great to be back here again
with another new episode of the 

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tackling Journal podcast. 
Thanks for spending your time 

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Producing great content every 

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week for today's episode. 
I am happy to share my 

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conversation with Evan 
laybourne. 

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Evan is the founder and CEO of 
business agility Institute and 

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international membership, body 
to both champion and support 

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next generation of organizations
that are agile Innovative and 

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dynamic in this episode, haven't
shared about the current 

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maturity of a jar. 
Adoption and how agile has 

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matured over the years by 
looking at three different 

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agility. 
The categories technical agility

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process or operational, agility,
and business agility. 

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Evan then explain further what 
business agility means and his 

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interesting story of why. 
He eventually started the 

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business agility Institute. 
He then explained in depth the 

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concept of business agility 
domains, which is a Model 

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comprising, 12 different 
interacting domains across four,

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different dimensions centered 
around the customer. 

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We then discuss about his theory
of age are constraints borrowing

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from the original theory of 
constraints introduced by dr. 

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Eliyahu. 
Rat and in his theory of age are

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constraints, even shared his 
insights on. 

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Why he thinks a jar and devops 
Transformations are currently 

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hitting diminishing returns and 
how we should address this 

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situation by continuously, 
finding the constraint to solve 

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within an organization in order 
to become truly agile during our

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conversation. 
Evan also touch on and shared 

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about the recent business 
agility Institute, research, 

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finding on why many HR 
organizations. 

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Leslie fail to embed and 
support, diversity, equality and

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inclusion, or DUI within the 
organization's an interesting. 

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Finding that look at the 
intersection between a gel and 

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d. 
I, I really enjoyed this 

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conversation with Evan and I 
hope you will enjoy this episode

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as well. 
Consider helping the show by 

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Once you receive any of those 
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another new episode of the 
package. 

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You know, today I have with me, 
everyone Laybourn Evan is the 

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founder and CEO of the business 
agility Institute, which is an 

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international membership body to
both champion and support the 

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next generation of 
organizations, which are the 

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companies that are Asia 
Innovative and dynamic. 

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So today we are going to talk a 
lot about business agility and 

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things related to that. 
So Evan. 

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Thank thanks for being on the 
show. 

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Hoping to have a good 
conversation with you about 

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business agility. 
Thank you Henry. 

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I'm really looking forward to 
it. 

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It's gonna be a good 
conversation in the beginning 

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event. 
Maybe could you introduce 

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yourself for the audience who 
may not be familiar with? 

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You may be highlighting or 
turning points or major 

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highlights in your career. 
Of course, I'm currently living 

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in Melbourne, Australia, but 
that's a fairly new thing for 

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me. 
I have spent the last 15 17, 20 

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years working and Traveling all 
over the world. 

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Now, obviously, this is the tech
lead Journal, it would be 

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worthwhile to share, where I 
started from a technical 

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perspective. 
I was a programmer web 

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applications primarily back in 
the late 90s and early 2000s. 

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PHP being my development system 
of choice. 

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I know it's not the most flashy 
programming languages, but it 

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did the job. 
This is like, packing like the 

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PHP 4 days. 
And so, let's be honest. 

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It did the job pretty badly. 
I think it's a lot better now. 

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Now. 
But in around 2003, I got 

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exposed to this thing called 
agile and I say that with a 

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capital, a scrum and XP 
primarily at the time and 

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started to use these techniques 
in the development of the 

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software products that we were 
building. 

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At this point. 
I transitioned into sort of 

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Information Management Systems 
data warehouses and web-based 

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data warehouses, which were 
their dime, a dozen these days, 

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but they were very new back then
those really Citing, I don't 

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know if any of your listeners 
are really in the data 

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warehousing or business 
intelligence space, but I can 

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tell you that back then data 
warehouses and business 

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intelligence systems failed a 
lot companies would spend 

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millions and millions of dollars
building these systems only to 

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get 0 return on them. 
And so, agile was seen as a way 

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of closing that feedback loop 
making it tighter getting more 

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insights from the data. 
Data quicker without necessarily

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building everything all at once.
And we did a pretty damn good 

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job. 
If we fast forward a little bit 

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to about 2008, at this point. 
I've joined the Australian 

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Public Service. 
There's a concept called the 

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Peter Principle, which is being 
promoted to your level of 

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incompetence that maybe a little
bit of a joke, but this is where

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I was, I became the director of 
business intelligence for a 

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government agency. 
I was a good team lead. 

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I was a good programmer. 
I was a good database. 

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Data, but I wasn't a good 
director. 

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There were skills there that I 
never learnt that you don't 

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learn in University. 
You don't learn when you're 

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building software products. 
And so I had an epiphany. 

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Well actually, to be fair, my 
boss pointed out that I wasn't 

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doing a good job. 
I can't say I had the Epiphany, 

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my boss pulled me into a room 
and it's like, you've got to get

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better. 
Otherwise this isn't going to 

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work out. 
So I started thinking about the 

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challenges I was facing Seeing 
as a director around, getting 

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teams divisions and functions 
across multiple government 

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agencies, because we were doing 
a whole of government program. 

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Getting them to cooperate and 
collaborate with each other, 

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getting that coordination of 
work and budgets and all those 

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kind of things. 
But if you think about it, 

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cooperation, collaboration 
coordination, these are things 

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that agile. 
The capital A did really well, 

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obviously, in building software 
products, but I had this sort of

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like a half moment. 
It was like, if these 

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principles, the agile, Manifesto
the principles, the values and 

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the practices work, well to 
solve these patterns of 

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problems. 
Maybe they'll solve these 

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patterns of problems in another 
context, in which case, in a 

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business setting, long story 
short. 

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They did, that's sort of what 
got me into this space that we 

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now call business agility, back 
then to be honest. 

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It was more like agile business 
but in the intervening 12 13 

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years, I've been both holding my
own I own skills and experiences

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around business agility and 
helping organizations on that 

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same path. 
So, the most recent thing, three

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years ago. 
I left the Consulting world and 

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co-founded the business agility 
Institute, which Henry as you 

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very nicely mentioned. 
We're a professional 

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association. 
We have members in 60-plus 

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countries. 
We don't do training. 

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We don't do Consulting but we do
research to actually have 14 

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research teams, exploring 
different. 

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Assets of business. 
And I suppose what that looks 

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like. 
That was perhaps a long answer 

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to your question, but there's 
Evan in a nutshell. 

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So, thanks again for sharing 
your story. 

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I think one thing that I noticed
is when you mention about a gel 

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with capital A, so maybe we can 
share a little bit. 

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What do you mean by Asia with 
capital A? 

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And is it common to say, Asia 
with lowercase a now when we say

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a job with a capital, A we use 
that to refer to the agile 

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Manifesto and And the agile 
practices and Frameworks. 

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It is the thing called agile, 
the noun, whereas a draw with a 

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little a it's the verb. 
It's a thing that you are. 

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You have agility. 
You are agile. 

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00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,800
You do Agile with that capital, 
A now. 

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Yes, there's a whole agile 
Manifesto, which is values and 

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00:10:07,500 --> 00:10:11,800
principles is not as clean cut 
as that, but if we say agile 

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with a capital, A, we're really 
just referring to that broader 

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context the practices and so 
forth. 

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00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:20,900
So you mentioned about all these
experience that you have and you

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also now have business agility. 
Maybe a nutshell. 

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What do you think is the current
maturity of Asia adoption. 

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00:10:27,500 --> 00:10:29,200
I mean, it's been around for, I 
don't know. 

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More than a decade. 
I would say probably. 

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00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:34,300
Yeah, and what do you think is 
the current adoption of 

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companies familiar with it? 
They are able to introduce that 

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and be more jails. 
Let me separate this into three 

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categories of agile. 
This is just Evan how I see it. 

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00:10:46,700 --> 00:10:49,800
This isn't some Vishal? 
How agile is defined? 

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00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:52,800
But just for the sake of 
answering the question, let's 

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look at it in terms of technical
agility, process or operational,

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00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:01,500
agility, and business agility. 
So technical agility is things 

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like XP back in the day. 
It's not the project management 

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00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,900
rappers, but it's rather, how 
you write code. 

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00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,500
It's devops. 
I remember back when I was a 

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00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:12,300
techie. 
We didn't have continuous 

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00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:14,300
deployment back then, but we 
definitely had continuous 

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00:11:14,300 --> 00:11:18,200
integration. 
So this was a fundamental Part 

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00:11:18,200 --> 00:11:20,900
of the agile work that we were 
doing. 

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00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:26,600
We had to have this technical 
agility, this ability to create 

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00:11:26,700 --> 00:11:30,700
products that were modular. 
So it touched architecture it 

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00:11:30,700 --> 00:11:35,100
touched design, it touched 
delivery, the actual writing of 

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00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:38,400
code. 
Now, I would say that over the 

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00:11:38,400 --> 00:11:41,800
years. 
We have got very good at this in

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00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:45,500
part because it's something that
can be repeated, devops as a 

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00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:48,100
concept. 
I know some of y'all As May 

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00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:50,200
object to me, linking devops and
agile. 

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00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:51,900
Because I know some people think
that they're completely 

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00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:55,200
different things. 
Hence why I'm using agility, not

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00:11:55,200 --> 00:12:01,100
agile per se, but devops and the
professionalism around that 

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00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:03,600
operational aspect of the 
business. 

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00:12:03,700 --> 00:12:07,300
Actually. 
I think took this technical 

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00:12:07,300 --> 00:12:10,900
agility into a high level of 
maturity, across most 

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organization. 
We all know organizations that 

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are struggling. 
If we look at the process 

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00:12:15,700 --> 00:12:17,500
agility, the operational 
agility. 

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00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,100
And this is the Frameworks 
around project management around

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00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:24,100
product development around 
portfolio management. 

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I think this is Scrum. 
This is safe. 

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This is disciplined agile, 
though. 

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Some of those do go down in that
technical agility space as well.

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Organizations are doing okay. 
We've been doing it for a long 

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time. 
But there are elements of it 

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that are particularly culturally
hard for many established 

233
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organizations. 
It's Young organizations, 

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generally, with a younger 
management base without that 

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inertia, without that 1960s 
management model or that 1980s 

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management model. 
They do quite well with this, 

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but the larger more established 
organizations, there's almost a 

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generational change that is 
occurring. 

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So if I pick say two examples, 
an example like Microsoft. 

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Now, I'm an open-source person. 
I still have a bun to on my 

241
00:13:16,900 --> 00:13:18,900
laptop. 
I haven't logged into it for a 

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00:13:18,908 --> 00:13:21,000
while, but I still have a bunch 
of my laptop. 

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00:13:21,100 --> 00:13:24,500
I ran the open-source developers
conference in Australia, back in

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00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:28,400
2008. 
So I've always been embedded in 

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00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:32,200
that open source space so I can 
remember back in 2008, 2007 

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2006, Microsoft was the enemy, 
Microsoft was the big monolithic

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in many cases, evil 
organization, but I look at 

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Microsoft today with nothing, 
but a sense of Say almost pride 

249
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and respect they have managed to
turn their organization around. 

250
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Now. 
It's not perfect everywhere, but

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they are doing some pretty 
amazing things and a large part,

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it comes from that agility, that
generational change the Old 

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Guard, moved out, a new 
generation moved in into those 

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leadership roles into those 
program and project roles and 

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they brought with them and 
almost native agility. 

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Microsoft has gone in Incredibly
well, because of it. 

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00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,800
If I look at another 
organization like IBM, its older

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more established, but it hasn't 
had and its trying in all 

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00:14:26,900 --> 00:14:30,200
respect to IBM. 
They are truly trying to be an 

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00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,000
agile organization, but they 
haven't really had that 

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00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:39,600
fundamental shift of culture and
generational leadership across 

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all the different elements in 
all openness. 

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00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,200
I actually used to work for IBM.
So there are pockets of great 

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agility, some of the greatest 
thinkers. 

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00:14:47,700 --> 00:14:50,300
Irene IBM. 
But the organization as a whole 

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doesn't have that they have 
pockets of agility whereas 

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00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,800
Microsoft has pockets of an 
agility, so it's possible but 

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that's that difficult. 
And then the third space is 

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business agility. 
This is where we're looking at 

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00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,600
everything from finance and HR 
and sales and marketing and all 

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those kind of things. 
The industry in general is 

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fairly low from our research and
your listeners will be very 

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00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,800
happy about this. 
The number one industry in terms

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of business agility, adoption is
Is the technology Industries 

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Financial Services firms are in 
the top. 

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00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:25,200
They were in the top three. 
They dropped. 

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I think the number 4. 
Interestingly manufacturing 

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00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,600
factories production firms are 
actually now in the top three. 

279
00:15:31,900 --> 00:15:36,200
So, it's been quite interesting 
to see how they have gone from 

280
00:15:36,200 --> 00:15:40,100
this lean perspective to this 
lean agile perspective. 

281
00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:43,600
And so they're growing, but 
still, very young industry. 

282
00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,500
It's sort of a while to go 
before before companies. 

283
00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,400
That shift effectively. 
So, thanks for sharing this 

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00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:52,300
statistic. 
I mean, it's very interesting 

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00:15:52,300 --> 00:15:53,200
for me. 
Personally. 

286
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,100
I've worked in the financial 
services long way back. 

287
00:15:56,300 --> 00:15:58,700
I thought that they would be 
more mature in terms of 

288
00:15:58,700 --> 00:16:00,400
adoption. 
But you mentioned that 

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00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,400
technology space and 
Manufacturing are in the top 

290
00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:05,600
three. 
So what is the other 10 

291
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,600
consulting firms? 
That's an interesting space 

292
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,200
because consulting firms. 
They often experiment on 

293
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:12,800
themselves. 
I'll be blunt. 

294
00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,400
I don't mean the big ones. 
The really big for consulting. 

295
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,100
Firms aren't agile. 
The slightest and you all know 

296
00:16:19,100 --> 00:16:20,800
who they are. 
So I won't say them out loud. 

297
00:16:21,100 --> 00:16:24,700
They have very limited agility. 
They'll do it to others, but 

298
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:26,200
they struggle to do it to 
themselves. 

299
00:16:26,500 --> 00:16:31,100
But there are tens of thousands 
of small to mid-size consulting,

300
00:16:31,100 --> 00:16:33,700
firms. 
I'm talking 10 people up to 

301
00:16:33,700 --> 00:16:41,200
about 150, 250 people. 
These firms are exemplars in 

302
00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,000
business agility, in many cases,
because they do it to 

303
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,300
themselves. 
They become Consultants to try 

304
00:16:46,300 --> 00:16:49,000
and help other organizations. 
Because they believe in it 

305
00:16:49,100 --> 00:16:51,100
because they believe in it. 
They're doing it themselves. 

306
00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,100
The big four consulting firms. 
Obviously that plays is that 

307
00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:57,300
Microsoft IBM game of 
generational change is going to 

308
00:16:57,308 --> 00:16:59,700
be required. 
So I think it's also a good time

309
00:16:59,700 --> 00:17:03,100
now to move into the topic of 
business agility, which is the 

310
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:05,900
main theme for today. 
So maybe if you can explain 

311
00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:10,599
again what is business agility 
in short and why did you come up

312
00:17:10,599 --> 00:17:13,800
with the institution? 
It's pretty interesting to me. 

313
00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,400
What is business agility? 
Let me give you the definition. 

314
00:17:17,500 --> 00:17:20,400
And as we Define a business 
agility, is a set of 

315
00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:24,700
organizational capabilities, 
behaviors and ways of working 

316
00:17:24,900 --> 00:17:28,200
that afford your business, the 
freedom flexibility and 

317
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,800
resilience to achieve its 
purpose no matter what the 

318
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:34,300
future brings. 
So, let me touch into a couple 

319
00:17:34,300 --> 00:17:38,600
things capabilities behaviors 
and ways of working in reverse 

320
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:40,600
order, the ways of working is 
what you do. 

321
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,600
That have behaviors, is what 
you're expressing. 

322
00:17:43,900 --> 00:17:46,500
And the capabilities is what 
you've achieved. 

323
00:17:46,900 --> 00:17:52,100
If you've W those three, then 
you've got a good foundation for

324
00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:54,900
business agility, many 
organizations will adopt the 

325
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:57,900
ways of working, but they don't 
change the behaviors. 

326
00:17:58,100 --> 00:18:00,700
And they don't create new 
capabilities in the 

327
00:18:00,700 --> 00:18:03,600
organization. 
And so would say that they're 

328
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,900
doing agile, not being agile. 
And that's unfortunately, quite 

329
00:18:07,900 --> 00:18:10,100
limiting. 
So you need all three to be 

330
00:18:10,100 --> 00:18:12,300
effective. 
The second point I want to 

331
00:18:12,300 --> 00:18:15,300
highlight, is to achieve, its 
purpose or to achieve your 

332
00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:19,500
purpose organizations. 
Exist for a reason and that 

333
00:18:19,500 --> 00:18:23,000
reason is sometimes very 
obvious. 

334
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:26,400
We exist to serve a customer. 
We build a product. 

335
00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,100
We serve a customer in a 
particular way and some cases it

336
00:18:29,100 --> 00:18:32,500
might be a little bit more 
hidden a government organization

337
00:18:32,500 --> 00:18:35,600
or a not-for-profit. 
But there's a great quote by 

338
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,400
Frederick lelou profit is like 
the air. 

339
00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,100
We do not live to breathe, but 
we do need to breathe in order 

340
00:18:42,100 --> 00:18:44,900
to live. 
So what does that mean as an 

341
00:18:44,900 --> 00:18:47,700
organization? 
Your purpose isn't to Make 

342
00:18:47,700 --> 00:18:50,500
money. 
Your purpose is to serve your 

343
00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:53,800
customers. 
Making money is how you know, 

344
00:18:53,900 --> 00:18:56,600
you've served your customers. 
And so we see a lot of 

345
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,000
organizations get that round the
wrong way. 

346
00:18:59,300 --> 00:19:03,000
The customer is secondary to 
making money in those companies 

347
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,200
tend not to last more than five 
to ten years. 

348
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,200
Those companies who get that 
customer centricity are the ones

349
00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:13,500
who especially right now in a 
very Dynamic, very unpredictable

350
00:19:13,500 --> 00:19:15,800
Market other ones who are doing 
quite well. 

351
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:18,200
There's another concept called. 
Job to be done. 

352
00:19:18,500 --> 00:19:21,900
The concept of job to be done, 
is when you go and buy a drill, 

353
00:19:22,100 --> 00:19:24,600
you're not buying a duel because
you want to drill, you're buying

354
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,200
a drill because you want to 
hole, and you want to hold 

355
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:28,800
because you want to put up a set
of shelves. 

356
00:19:29,200 --> 00:19:34,000
So that drill company isn't in 
the market of selling drills 

357
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:37,600
there in the market of selling 
holes and helping you build 

358
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,700
things. 
So, if there is some issue with 

359
00:19:41,700 --> 00:19:47,100
the sale of drills, for example,
there are supplier problems, or 

360
00:19:47,500 --> 00:19:51,700
Three issues or the EU says, you
can't sell to them anymore. 

361
00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,000
You can't import drills for 
whatever reason. 

362
00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:57,200
I know that's for silly example,
but just bear with me those 

363
00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:01,600
organizations who see themselves
as we sell drills have a 

364
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:03,600
problem. 
Those organizations who the see 

365
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,100
themselves as we serve our 
customers to create holes. 

366
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:09,700
They're the ones who can then, 
look at that problem from a 

367
00:20:09,708 --> 00:20:12,500
different perspective and go. 
How else can we serve this 

368
00:20:12,500 --> 00:20:14,500
customer? 
How else can we sell? 

369
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:16,100
Or what else? 
Can we do? 

370
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:17,900
What else? 
Can we sell that in a Tables the

371
00:20:17,900 --> 00:20:21,000
customer to do what they want to
do without selling this drill, 

372
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,000
that we can no longer sell for 
whatever reason. 

373
00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:27,100
That's a silly example, but 
there are real fundamental cases

374
00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:28,000
where. 
That's true. 

375
00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:34,100
Look at Kodak, Kodak believed 
they were in the market of 

376
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:38,800
selling chemicals and machines 
to print shops, to allow print 

377
00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,100
shops, to print your photos. 
And so the customer, the Kodak 

378
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,400
was the print shops. 
Not the person who's taking the 

379
00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,700
photographs, they Forgot that 
they were in the market of 

380
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,900
allowing people to capture 
memories that was in their 

381
00:20:52,900 --> 00:20:56,000
marketing that Kodak moments 
kind of thing, but their 

382
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,200
marketing wasn't replicated in 
their business. 

383
00:20:59,500 --> 00:21:05,300
They invented the digital 
camera, but they were so tightly

384
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:10,600
bound to their existing markets,
their existing customers, that 

385
00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:14,200
they forgot who they were in 
business for and they paid the 

386
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,200
price for it. 
When you set up this bizarre. 

387
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,200
At The Institute. 
What is the purpose behind it? 

388
00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:24,400
Why do you think an Institute 
would make a sense for people to

389
00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:26,200
join and maybe learn from each 
other? 

390
00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:29,100
Of course. 
So I can never set out to create

391
00:21:29,100 --> 00:21:33,800
the institute in 2016. 
I was in India. 

392
00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:37,200
I was speaking agile, India 
conference, and I was talking 

393
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,600
about business agility, as it's 
what I talked about, what I've 

394
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:43,200
always spoken about. 
I was with IBM at the time, but 

395
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,800
afterwards, I was sitting down 
with a friend of mine and we 

396
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,200
were talking about About the 
problems that we had with 

397
00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:53,200
existing agile, conferences, and
do me wrong. 

398
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,600
I love agile, India other than 
2020, for obvious reasons. 

399
00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,600
I've been to that conference 
every year for almost 10 years, 

400
00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:04,500
but when you talk business 
agility half the time ever in 

401
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:08,400
the room nods and goes. 
Yes, we need this, but they go 

402
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,800
back to their offices and 
nothing changes. 

403
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:15,600
And so I was the menteng I was 
very frustrated about this to my

404
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,000
friend and she said, well, why 
don't Don't you create a 

405
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,100
business agility conference? 
That's like all right, I will. 

406
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,700
So in 2017. 
We launched the first business 

407
00:22:24,700 --> 00:22:27,000
agility conference. 
This was in New York. 

408
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:28,700
I was living in Singapore at the
time. 

409
00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:31,500
I have to admit running a global
conference. 

410
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,400
Literally. 
The opposite site is a 12 hour 

411
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,200
time zone difference. 
It was not pleasant, but I 

412
00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:40,600
walked into that room. 
I had a fairly arrogant 

413
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,600
assumption. 
I assumed because I've been 

414
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:45,500
talking about business agility 
for at that point. 

415
00:22:45,500 --> 00:22:49,800
Eight or nine years. 
I That I would know most people 

416
00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:55,600
in the room, 80%, I was wrong. 
I knew maybe 20%, maybe less, 

417
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,400
maybe 10% of the companies and 
the people in that room. 

418
00:22:59,700 --> 00:23:01,900
We sold out by the way, it was a
huge success. 

419
00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:07,400
What this exposed to me was that
there was this untapped pain 

420
00:23:07,700 --> 00:23:10,600
people, wanted to talk about 
business agility. 

421
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:14,000
They wanted a space to call 
their own, that wasn't in the 

422
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,900
agile world. 
That wasn't in the technology 

423
00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,300
world. 
Old but we're a CFO and a chir 

424
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:24,400
row and a transformation 
consultant, and people who were 

425
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:30,300
wanting to see businesses change
to create a space where by they 

426
00:23:30,300 --> 00:23:33,300
can have that conversation to 
the conference was a success. 

427
00:23:33,300 --> 00:23:36,200
And up the conference. 
We started planning the next 

428
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,400
event, which was obviously a 
year away completely 

429
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,300
coincidentally. 
I had to move from Singapore, 

430
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:44,400
back to Australia for family 
reasons. 

431
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,500
I do miss Singapore. 
I'd move back there in a 

432
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:49,000
heartbeat if I could. 
Love sample, but so I had to 

433
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,900
move back to family reasons. 
And so I had to resign from IBM 

434
00:23:51,900 --> 00:23:53,800
because I was employed by IBM. 
Singapore. 

435
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:55,800
I'm there going. 
What do I do? 

436
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:57,300
I've got to get back to 
Australia. 

437
00:23:57,500 --> 00:23:59,200
I could join. 
IBM Australia. 

438
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:01,100
I am. 
Singapore was pretty good. 

439
00:24:01,100 --> 00:24:03,900
I enjoyed our AVM, Singapore. 
I didn't think I'd enjoy IBM, 

440
00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:06,100
Australia, or anywhere near as 
much as I enjoyed the work. 

441
00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:07,300
I was doing at IBM. 
Singapore. 

442
00:24:07,500 --> 00:24:13,000
Do I join another consultancy or
do I join a firm like a bank and

443
00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:14,600
help them with their 
transformation. 

444
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,100
There was nothing in my heart 
that so went. 

445
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,800
Yes, that's what I want to do. 
I kind of felt that part of my 

446
00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:25,100
career was over paid well, and I
certainly was making an impact, 

447
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,500
but I then thought about what I 
enjoyed and I thought about the 

448
00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,300
conference. 
I thought about the impact we 

449
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:34,800
had I was talking to a gentleman
called Achmed Siddiki. 

450
00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:37,200
I was saying it's like, I don't 
want to run events. 

451
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,700
I'm not an event planner. 
The event is a means to an end. 

452
00:24:41,000 --> 00:24:42,700
It's a way of bringing people 
together. 

453
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,900
Is it possible to create a 
business? 

454
00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,100
That brings people together? 
And that's where the Institute 

455
00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:53,300
formed from is to create that 
space for those conversations. 

456
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:56,600
Now, I'm going to jump forward 
six months because when we 

457
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,300
started, we had a particular 
Vision. 

458
00:24:59,500 --> 00:25:01,400
We were going to events around 
the world. 

459
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,900
We were going to have a library 
of content and material to 

460
00:25:04,900 --> 00:25:08,500
inform people that business 
agility about six months later. 

461
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,100
I was actually ironically at the
same conference in India, where 

462
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:15,300
this whole thing started. 
I was listening to a talk by a 

463
00:25:15,300 --> 00:25:18,100
lady called Linda Rising. 
She's amazing. 

464
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,300
If you've never heard her speak,
I suggest you check out some of 

465
00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,600
her YouTube videos. 
She got her PhD in information 

466
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,700
technology. 
I think when she was 60 or 

467
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:31,100
something, absolutely brilliant,
and she said, ironically the 

468
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:35,300
plural of anecdote is not data. 
Now, that's actually an 

469
00:25:35,300 --> 00:25:38,300
incorrect quote and there's a 
whole bunch of reasons why but 

470
00:25:38,300 --> 00:25:42,500
her point, which was very valid 
in the agile and in my case 

471
00:25:42,500 --> 00:25:46,700
business agility environment. 
So much of what we do is based 

472
00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:49,500
on an Don't it worked for me 
here. 

473
00:25:49,700 --> 00:25:52,600
Therefore it'll work for me 
there or it'll work for you 

474
00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:55,400
there and the assumption that 
because I've got it. 

475
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:57,700
I've done it once. 
It must be true. 

476
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:03,200
She was lamenting the lack of 
good evidence and research. 

477
00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:06,800
I realized at that moment in 
that talk that we were one of 

478
00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:10,100
the few organizations who could 
because we weren't selling 

479
00:26:10,100 --> 00:26:12,600
services. 
We weren't selling Consulting. 

480
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:17,500
So if we were to do research, it
could be trusted because We 

481
00:26:17,500 --> 00:26:22,200
would never sell Services based 
on that research with all 

482
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:24,700
respect to a lot of the other 
organizations. 

483
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,900
In this space. 
They're either selling 

484
00:26:26,900 --> 00:26:29,700
Consulting. 
They're selling certification. 

485
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:34,500
And so they say agile is great. 
And then in the next email, 

486
00:26:34,500 --> 00:26:38,500
they're saying by our services 
or become a certified X. 

487
00:26:38,700 --> 00:26:41,300
The credibility isn't there. 
I'm not saying they're wrong, 

488
00:26:41,300 --> 00:26:44,700
but the credibility isn't there.
So we decided that we would 

489
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:47,700
become a research institute so 
we actually, Gear. 

490
00:26:47,700 --> 00:26:50,000
After about six months. 
This is what business agility 

491
00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:52,200
is. 
It's about changing, what you do

492
00:26:52,300 --> 00:26:55,700
to better serve your customers. 
So we became a research 

493
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,600
organization. 
So now we have that professional

494
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,400
association. 
We still have the events in New 

495
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:01,500
York and we have a couple of 
others around the world, but 

496
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,800
we've actually scaled back 
events actually. 

497
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,600
Start scaling back events before
covid, seems prescient. 

498
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,500
Now, we now have 14 research 
teams. 

499
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:13,600
We just launched our research on
agility, on the relationship 

500
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,600
between agility and diversity, 
equity and inclusion. 

501
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,800
The problem with being a 
research organization is, if we 

502
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:22,300
have negative findings, we still
have to publish them. 

503
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,100
Let us put this way. 
Agile organization, do not 

504
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:26,900
score. 
Well, in general, in terms of 

505
00:27:26,900 --> 00:27:30,700
d&i in many cases, it's not 
because they're doing agile 

506
00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:33,100
badly. 
It's because of our job. 

507
00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:36,000
So there are things that need to
be done to improve some of the 

508
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,600
agile practices and Frameworks 
to embed DNA better into them. 

509
00:27:39,900 --> 00:27:42,400
Sometimes we have to publish 
things that actually say. 

510
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,000
Hey, yeah, maybe we're not so 
crash right after all. 

511
00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,400
So, I'm pretty interested in why
some of these agile 

512
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,200
organization, not actually 
making good scores on the, what 

513
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,300
are some of the hindrance in 
your research? 

514
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:54,900
Probably if you can share with 
the audience. 

515
00:27:55,300 --> 00:27:57,300
Yeah, absolutely. 
So well, there's a couple of 

516
00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:01,700
things. 
First of all, de9 I is implied 

517
00:28:01,700 --> 00:28:04,100
with in agile, but it is not 
explicit. 

518
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,500
So what does that mean? 
That means that we say 

519
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:11,300
individuals and interactions 
over processes and tools but you

520
00:28:11,300 --> 00:28:15,900
know what, we assume that it 
must be there, but it's not And 

521
00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:19,700
therein lies the problem. 
The second thing that we do as 

522
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:25,300
the focus on transparency, the 
focus on rapid communication, 

523
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:27,400
even practices like the daily 
stand-up. 

524
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:33,600
It's designed for people who are
neurotypical, they're able to 

525
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,300
think fast. 
They're able to talk fast. 

526
00:28:36,500 --> 00:28:41,600
They're able to engage in a 
public social setting without 

527
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:45,100
hesitation, whereas 
neuro-diverse people who may be 

528
00:28:45,100 --> 00:28:46,800
introverted. 
First people who may have that 

529
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:48,900
kind of Social Challenges really
struggle. 

530
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:51,500
And now the issue is around the 
even, just a technology in the 

531
00:28:51,500 --> 00:28:53,600
tooling. 
One of the researchers have a 

532
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,100
visual impairment actually, one 
of the things that we discovered

533
00:28:56,100 --> 00:28:58,100
from this. 
His organization went through a 

534
00:28:58,108 --> 00:29:01,800
big agile transformation, and he
ended up leaving the 

535
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,400
organization because they went 
from MS project or whatever 

536
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,600
else, which don't get me wrong. 
MS project is the worst my 

537
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:13,100
project management days. 
I really hate that product, but 

538
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,200
at least it's what a screen 
reader. 

539
00:29:15,700 --> 00:29:18,600
He could know what was going on 
because it would speak it out. 

540
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,100
He could zoom in, he could see 
what little vision he had. 

541
00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:23,700
He could read and he could hear.
Whereas when everything 

542
00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:25,800
transition to post it notes on 
the wall. 

543
00:29:26,100 --> 00:29:28,100
He can't read it. 
He can't see it. 

544
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,500
So he can't actually do his job 
anymore and worse the 

545
00:29:31,500 --> 00:29:36,000
organization, because D, and I 
wasn't embedded in that as a 

546
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,400
principle. 
It wasn't even considered. 

547
00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:41,600
We say individuals and 
interactions, but we don't, 

548
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,400
there are also cultural issues. 
Let's be blunt. 

549
00:29:44,500 --> 00:29:47,600
Where do the agile Manifesto? 
So, come from 17 middle-aged 

550
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,600
white men back in February, 20, 
20. 

551
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,400
I was in Nigeria launching the 
business agility conference in 

552
00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,400
Africa. 
There was a speaker there 

553
00:29:56,500 --> 00:30:00,700
talking about what African 
agility looks like because it's 

554
00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:02,700
really interesting and it's 
really challenging. 

555
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,700
There's this huge culture of 
respecting your elders. 

556
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,700
But what happens if you are a 
young scrum Master trying to be 

557
00:30:11,700 --> 00:30:15,900
a servant leader with developers
or team members, who are Older 

558
00:30:15,900 --> 00:30:19,000
than you. 
There is this cultural conflict 

559
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,700
that emerges that was never 
considered in the design of any 

560
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:26,400
agile practice because that's 
really not a thing in America. 

561
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:29,000
This is just some examples. 
There is a lot more in any of 

562
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:30,700
your listeners. 
Can go to our library and 

563
00:30:30,700 --> 00:30:33,400
download the research report 
because all of our researchers 

564
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,700
public. 
So you can find out more that. 

565
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,800
I'll make sure to put it in the 
show notes later on. 

566
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,300
So thanks for sharing the 
findings from your research. 

567
00:30:41,300 --> 00:30:42,700
Actually. 
It's pretty interesting because 

568
00:30:42,700 --> 00:30:45,900
now that I heard it completely 
makes sense to me because I see 

569
00:30:45,900 --> 00:30:49,500
some of the introverts may not 
be able to fully be embedded 

570
00:30:49,500 --> 00:30:52,400
inside of some of the practices 
of a child just like daily 

571
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,600
stand-up or maybe retrospective.
So I think yeah, it's pretty 

572
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,400
interesting research. 
I'll also probably read up to 

573
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,900
know more about this as well. 
The other thing about business 

574
00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:03,000
agility. 
I saw from your website is that 

575
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,700
you come up with these domains 
so many different domains except

576
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:09,200
principal or The Guiding 
framework behind business 

577
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:12,400
agility, and we can you share a 
little bit about those domains. 

578
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,800
Yes. 
So the domains of business 

579
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:17,400
agility, we're actually One of 
the very first things that we 

580
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,000
published as a piece of 
research. 

581
00:31:19,300 --> 00:31:22,200
In fact, it actually wasn't 
meant to be research. 

582
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,900
It wasn't meant to be something 
that we publish. 

583
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,400
It started out as a blog post. 
I was just writing about what I 

584
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:30,700
thought were the 
characteristics. 

585
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:32,300
That the mains the business 
agility. 

586
00:31:32,500 --> 00:31:34,400
I finished the article. 
I just happen to be going to 

587
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,100
surgery that day. 
It was just a surgery but I put 

588
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:39,400
it up on LinkedIn to my 
followers and was like, Hey, 

589
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,600
I've written this post. 
Here's a Google Docs link. 

590
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:44,400
This is what I think the demands
of business agility, our love, 

591
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:46,700
your feedback. 
Can you follow the link? 

592
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:48,500
Add some comments that kind of 
thing. 

593
00:31:48,900 --> 00:31:51,000
So I come out of surgery and 
obviously the first thing that 

594
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,000
you do, when you come out of 
surgery, is check your email. 

595
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:56,300
I have my email and I look at 
this document and there's about 

596
00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:00,100
60 people having a comment War 
about what business agility 

597
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:03,300
meant. 
So what started as a blog post 

598
00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:06,900
effectively then turns into this
big Community consultation which

599
00:32:06,900 --> 00:32:10,100
then turned into a grounded 
research study on what are the 

600
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:12,300
characteristics of an agile 
organization. 

601
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,400
Now, when we look at this, there
are Characteristics. 

602
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,900
Now obviously this is a podcast 
so I can't show you the domain. 

603
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:20,800
So I'll just highlight a few key
points. 

604
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,400
The first is at the very heart 
of the model, is the customer. 

605
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,600
Now, there's a big argument as 
to who's at the heart. 

606
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:29,300
Some people said it should be 
the customer. 

607
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,400
Some people said it should be 
employees. 

608
00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,100
Some people said it should be 
shareholders and there's 

609
00:32:34,100 --> 00:32:36,800
Arguments for each shareholders,
owning the business. 

610
00:32:37,100 --> 00:32:39,100
You look after your employees. 
They will look after your 

611
00:32:39,100 --> 00:32:41,200
customers. 
That's a pretty good train of 

612
00:32:41,200 --> 00:32:43,200
thought. 
But the reason we put customer 

613
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,900
at the center was and I think I 
mentioned this earlier before 

614
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:49,400
your customer is why you are in 
business. 

615
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:53,500
Simon sinek Says start with Y 
because they represent the 

616
00:32:53,500 --> 00:32:56,000
purpose. 
The reason you exist. 

617
00:32:56,100 --> 00:32:58,700
We put them at the heart 
surrounding the customer are the

618
00:32:58,700 --> 00:33:02,700
three domains that we call 
relationships, Workforce board 

619
00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:05,400
and partners. 
Workforce is an interesting one.

620
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,700
In an early version. 
We had employees, but the 

621
00:33:08,700 --> 00:33:12,200
problem is there's contracted. 
It doesn't matter what your 

622
00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,300
legal employment type is. 
You still need to be. 

623
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,600
That that so Workforce is a 
generic term that encapsulates, 

624
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,900
everyone who creates value the 
board of directors, because the 

625
00:33:21,900 --> 00:33:24,500
shareholders are important and 
they do represent agility. 

626
00:33:24,700 --> 00:33:28,000
They're also ironically the 
third this people from the 

627
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,300
customer. 
So if they're making strategic 

628
00:33:30,300 --> 00:33:32,800
decisions around the 
organization, around the 

629
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,700
direction, around the hiring of 
the CEO, all that kind of thing.

630
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,000
If they don't have some customer
centricity of themselves, 

631
00:33:39,300 --> 00:33:43,000
they're going to be making poor 
misaligned decisions and then 

632
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:48,200
partners because the Agility 
that you can express as an 

633
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:52,400
organization, may be limited by 
things, outside your 

634
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,000
organization, your suppliers or 
Distributors. 

635
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,300
Let's say you have distributors 
or agents or vendors and so 

636
00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:00,000
forth. 
If they're the ones who are 

637
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,800
talking to the end users and you
get your feedback from them. 

638
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:06,700
What's Amazon statistic, they 
can release a change into 

639
00:34:06,700 --> 00:34:08,900
production, every 11 seconds, 
something like that. 

640
00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:14,100
So gay for devops, but if you 
can release change every 11 

641
00:34:14,100 --> 00:34:18,100
seconds, but You can't get 
feedback or your Distributors. 

642
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:21,500
Can't take that change. 
Give it to their customers and 

643
00:34:21,500 --> 00:34:24,500
give you feedback. 
If they can't do that quickly. 

644
00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:26,400
Let's say it takes them, six 
months. 

645
00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:28,699
Your agility is not measured in 
seconds. 

646
00:34:28,699 --> 00:34:30,300
Your agility is measured in 
months. 

647
00:34:30,500 --> 00:34:33,199
That's why Partners is one of 
the key, domains three 

648
00:34:33,199 --> 00:34:37,100
leadership, terrains, three, 
individual domains and three 

649
00:34:37,100 --> 00:34:39,699
operations. 
Domains the leadership domains 

650
00:34:39,699 --> 00:34:43,500
of people management one team 
and strategic agility. 

651
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,500
These refer to To the 
capabilities of leaders and the 

652
00:34:47,507 --> 00:34:49,900
behaviors of leaders people 
Management's. 

653
00:34:49,900 --> 00:34:53,500
One that I take to heart in part
because of my own personal 

654
00:34:53,500 --> 00:34:57,300
experience of being a bad 
manager, but we know that 

655
00:34:57,300 --> 00:35:01,600
management accounts for 
something like 70 to 80% of 

656
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,800
Employee Engagement scores. 
We know that people leave 

657
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:07,100
organizations because of bad 
managers more than anything 

658
00:35:07,100 --> 00:35:09,600
else. 
So management is such a vitally 

659
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:14,900
important capability inside 
agile, organizations, but if we 

660
00:35:14,900 --> 00:35:18,000
think about Managers, what do we
think about the managers from 

661
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,900
Office Space or the office? 
We think about the pointy head 

662
00:35:20,900 --> 00:35:24,500
boss from Dilbert. 
Managers are at best incompetent

663
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:25,800
or at worst. 
Evil. 

664
00:35:26,100 --> 00:35:29,400
Everyone wants to be a leader. 
No one wants to be a manager and

665
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:32,900
unfortunately management is a 
skill and it is such a vital 

666
00:35:32,900 --> 00:35:35,300
skill. 
So we are on a quest to reclaim 

667
00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:39,000
management because management is
good and it is important and 

668
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,400
there are bad managers. 
Yes, but to all the listeners, 

669
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:45,300
think back in your career, think
back to the best manager. 

670
00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:49,400
You've ever had and the job 
satisfaction that you had there 

671
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,900
and the opportunities that arose
from that. 

672
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,400
I think you'll find that. 
For most of you that good 

673
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,500
manager is what makes such a 
huge difference. 

674
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:02,900
The individual domains the 
growth mindset ownership and 

675
00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:05,700
accountability. 
And craft Excellence, for this 

676
00:36:05,700 --> 00:36:08,200
audience, craft Excellence is 
going to be, I think a Hot Topic

677
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,700
because I've seen a lot of 
organizations kick off an agile 

678
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:16,100
transformation because they have
a lack of Old in their 

679
00:36:16,100 --> 00:36:19,800
development teams, and they 
think that it's very expensive 

680
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,500
to go and train everyone in the 
latest version of Java or 

681
00:36:22,500 --> 00:36:26,400
whatever else, hiring they hire 
cheaply. 

682
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,700
And I'm sure you've all worked 
with people, where you look at. 

683
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:31,800
Like, how did you get that job? 
You're not doing what you need 

684
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,200
to be doing the issue isn't 
Jilla T. 

685
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,500
The issue isn't scrum. 
The issue, is the fact that they

686
00:36:37,500 --> 00:36:40,200
don't have the skill to do the 
job. 

687
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:44,100
So that craft excellence and 
don't have to be development. 

688
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,600
This is accounting. 
Or marketing, whatever the craft

689
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:52,300
is has to be done with an 
embedded sense of quality and 

690
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:56,200
purpose, and then the three 
operational, domains process 

691
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:58,700
agility, Enterprise agility, and
structural agility. 

692
00:36:58,700 --> 00:37:03,000
Now, process agility is where 
most Transformations begin. 

693
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,700
That's transforming a process. 
An organization is not just a 

694
00:37:06,707 --> 00:37:10,900
process, the software 
development process, great adopt

695
00:37:10,900 --> 00:37:14,900
scrum, and that gives you an 
agile process around the 

696
00:37:14,900 --> 00:37:17,600
software. 
Life cycle, oh, agile marketing 

697
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,100
around the marketing process or 
Beyond budgeting for the 

698
00:37:20,100 --> 00:37:22,200
budgeting process. 
This is where something like, 

699
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,400
theory of constraints comes in. 
You've got other processes that 

700
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,500
feed in, you've got recruitment.
You got budgeting, you've got 

701
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:34,700
deployment, you've got security.
You've got pmo hundreds of 

702
00:37:34,700 --> 00:37:38,200
processes weaving in and out of 
various points in the software 

703
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:40,900
development life cycle. 
And so Enterprise agility is 

704
00:37:40,900 --> 00:37:44,100
creating agility, not just in 
that process, but in the network

705
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,800
of processes and the 
Relationships between them and 

706
00:37:46,808 --> 00:37:49,900
then structural agility is 
around how an organization 

707
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:53,500
creates agility in the way teams
are formed. 

708
00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:56,900
Those of you who have had the 
misfortune to be part of an 

709
00:37:56,900 --> 00:38:00,000
organizational restructure 
around squads and tribes. 

710
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,700
It's not a bad thing. 
It is actually an element of 

711
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,300
business agility. 
A key element of structural 

712
00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:07,000
agility. 
Is this concept of no handoffs a

713
00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,900
functional hierarchy where a 
June developer reports to a 

714
00:38:09,908 --> 00:38:12,700
senior developer who reports to 
a deadly to reports to a head of

715
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,700
development. 
That is nothing more than A 

716
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,800
modern implementation of a 
thousand-year-old Apprentice 

717
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:23,500
system where a Apprentice 
blacksmith apprentices to a 

718
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,800
Master blacksmith to learn the 
skill because The Apprentice 

719
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,000
system is designed is optimized 
for skills transfer. 

720
00:38:30,300 --> 00:38:34,100
So the functional hierarchy is 
optimized for skills transfer or

721
00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:38,300
what happens here is that at a 
certain point I don't need a 

722
00:38:38,308 --> 00:38:41,800
cross-functional team of 
multiple disciplines to shoe a 

723
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,400
horse. 
I need one blacksmith who knows 

724
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:46,000
what they're doing. 
That's it. 

725
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:50,500
But there is not a single modern
product that I can think of that

726
00:38:50,500 --> 00:38:53,700
can be done with one person with
one skill. 

727
00:38:54,100 --> 00:38:57,800
It requires a team and a team 
with different skills. 

728
00:38:58,100 --> 00:39:00,800
Now, in software, we can figure 
this out because I haven't seen 

729
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:04,700
an organization with a separate.
Devon testing for 10 years and 

730
00:39:04,700 --> 00:39:07,600
that definitely was the case. 
But outside of software. 

731
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:09,800
We still have these functional 
hierarchies. 

732
00:39:10,100 --> 00:39:13,000
So the value of structural 
agility is to reduce those 

733
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:16,400
handoffs in the system to 
optimize for the Lower value 

734
00:39:16,500 --> 00:39:19,000
through the system, which then 
actually ironically sub 

735
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:21,300
optimizes for skills transfer 
because there's always a 

736
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:24,100
trade-off. 
So that's why Spotify has that 

737
00:39:24,100 --> 00:39:27,300
chapters and gills to try and 
counteract that sub optimizing 

738
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:29,800
for skills. 
The problem is that many 

739
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,900
Transformations. 
They forget, they start adopting

740
00:39:33,900 --> 00:39:35,900
scored some tribes and they 
restructure. 

741
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,400
But they don't really look at 
why they're restructuring. 

742
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:40,300
They're doing it because they 
think they should. 

743
00:39:40,300 --> 00:39:42,700
They're doing it because 
everyone else is and they 

744
00:39:42,700 --> 00:39:46,300
actually end up designing a 
system that is No better. 

745
00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:49,600
You may have all pivoted 90 
degrees but still got the same 

746
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:53,000
number of handoffs between you 
and the customer and so no 

747
00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,900
agility is actually been 
created, so it can help. 

748
00:39:56,900 --> 00:39:58,400
But two blunts more often than 
not. 

749
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,400
It doesn't, that's pretty much 
the domains and there's a lot 

750
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:04,400
more to it. 
Obviously we think of this as 

751
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:07,100
it's not a framework, you can 
actually create a framework for 

752
00:40:07,100 --> 00:40:10,000
business agility. 
This is a characteristic model. 

753
00:40:10,300 --> 00:40:12,700
I think of it. 
As the don't forget model, if 

754
00:40:12,700 --> 00:40:15,800
you're going to change an 
organization, these are Things 

755
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,500
not to forget. 
Thanks for sharing all these. 

756
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:21,000
There are a lots of the concepts
inside. 

757
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,700
All the domains definitely for 
people who are interested. 

758
00:40:23,700 --> 00:40:26,700
I think you can refer to the 
website and find out more. 

759
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,300
I'll also put it in the show 
notes. 

760
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,300
One thing that probably we can 
go deeper because you mentioned 

761
00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:33,900
a couple of times. 
It's about your theory of age 

762
00:40:33,900 --> 00:40:36,400
are constraints. 
Actually you wrote about it a 

763
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:40,000
few years back if I'm not wrong.
So maybe you can explain to the 

764
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,600
people here. 
What is theory of constraints 

765
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:44,700
for support? 
And why do you come up with this

766
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:46,500
theory of Of age are 
constraints. 

767
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,100
The theory of constraints comes 
from a book called, the goal by 

768
00:40:50,100 --> 00:40:52,800
Eli Gold rap. 
It's very simple pattern. 

769
00:40:52,900 --> 00:40:55,700
It says that in any process, 
There's a constraint to the 

770
00:40:55,700 --> 00:40:58,300
process. 
Let's say that you're a 

771
00:40:58,300 --> 00:41:01,500
production line building cars 
and it takes you five minutes to

772
00:41:01,500 --> 00:41:04,300
install the engine and that's 
the slowest part in the system. 

773
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:07,200
That's the constraint. 
So it means that cars can roll 

774
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:09,300
off, that production line, every
five minutes. 

775
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:11,100
You can't roll them off any 
faster. 

776
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,700
It means that if you try and 
optimize or transform any Seemed

777
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:19,600
like the wheel team. 
You're actually not going to get

778
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:22,700
those cars rolling off the 
production line, any faster. 

779
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,200
So you transform the engine 
team. 

780
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:27,600
So now it takes three minutes to
install an engine. 

781
00:41:27,900 --> 00:41:30,900
But the thing is, the theory of 
constraints, the corollary is 

782
00:41:30,900 --> 00:41:32,700
that there is always a 
constraint. 

783
00:41:32,900 --> 00:41:36,300
And so, the constraint is, let's
say, it takes four minutes to 

784
00:41:36,300 --> 00:41:38,600
put the wheels on. 
Now, that takes three minutes to

785
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,600
put the engine in the car is not
rolling off in three minutes, 

786
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:44,500
the cars running off in for 
because the new constraints of 

787
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:46,400
the wheel team. 
Is what's limiting in it? 

788
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,400
So there's always a constraint 
to the system. 

789
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,100
Now with apologies, that your 
leg old Route, I talked about 

790
00:41:51,100 --> 00:41:52,800
Evans theory of agile, 
constraints. 

791
00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:55,300
That is that in any 
organization, There's a 

792
00:41:55,308 --> 00:41:59,700
constraint to agility and that's
probably not it anymore. 

793
00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:01,800
I'm going to take you all back 
to the 60s. 

794
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,300
I think it was 1969. 
The first conference was a 

795
00:42:07,308 --> 00:42:10,600
conference on software, 
engineering at the time. 

796
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:13,200
There was a thing, called 
software crisis, and this was a 

797
00:42:13,207 --> 00:42:15,900
crisis of identity, a crisis. 
Faith. 

798
00:42:16,200 --> 00:42:19,500
We're all of these developers 
and programmers didn't feel like

799
00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:21,000
they were being taken. 
Seriously. 

800
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:26,900
They looked at the professions 
engineering and law and they 

801
00:42:26,900 --> 00:42:30,000
looked at how professional those
industries were and said, we 

802
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:33,400
want some of this. 
So, as part of this, they 

803
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:37,800
created this software 
engineering concept, which takes

804
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:42,400
let's be honest, a a glorified 
version of engineering and 

805
00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:46,300
applied it to software to Evelyn
what they took wasn't even 

806
00:42:46,300 --> 00:42:50,500
reality for engineers. 
It was this hyper formalized, 

807
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:52,900
the pendulum swung too far for 
that way. 

808
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:57,400
So what happened was that fast 
forward to about the 80s and the

809
00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,800
constraint to agility, was the 
software teams because it would 

810
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:05,100
take three, four, five years to 
bring a product to Market first,

811
00:43:05,100 --> 00:43:08,900
then fast forward to about the 
80s, the 90s and 2001. 

812
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:14,200
It's very logical for Capital, a
agile to emerge in the software 

813
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,100
world. 
Was that was the constraint to 

814
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,800
agility software, teams could 
move faster. 

815
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,200
That's what agile was meant to 
do, create those feedback loops 

816
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,900
create better products. 
Get the first version to Market 

817
00:43:26,900 --> 00:43:30,000
in a matter of months. 
Not in a matter of years. 

818
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:32,500
But remember, there's always a 
corollary to theory of 

819
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,000
constraints. 
Late 90s, early 2000s. 

820
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,400
You have agile and this is where
I come into the world. 

821
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,100
As I remember. 
I was a techie back in 2003 

822
00:43:40,100 --> 00:43:43,100
signed to use agile. 
So I started using scrum 

823
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:47,000
fantastic, I could have Ave 
potentially shippable product 

824
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:49,400
increment, every two weeks. 
Fantastic. 

825
00:43:49,700 --> 00:43:51,600
Where did it go? 
Because didn't go to the 

826
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,700
customer because we had a 
release window and that release 

827
00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:57,400
window is a minor release every 
three months and a major release

828
00:43:57,400 --> 00:43:59,800
every six months. 
And for those of you old enough 

829
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:01,600
to remember what released 
windows were like. 

830
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:04,200
Oh, that was fun. 
I say that. 

831
00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:05,700
No, it wasn't. 
It was not fun at all. 

832
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,600
So even though we were able to 
create, this potentially 

833
00:44:09,600 --> 00:44:11,200
shippable product increment, 
every two weeks. 

834
00:44:11,500 --> 00:44:14,800
We couldn't actually deploy them
until six months later. 

835
00:44:15,500 --> 00:44:19,200
Our agility, it was known as 
measured by years, but it wasn't

836
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,300
measured by weeks. 
It was now measured by months 

837
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:23,800
because operations became the 
constraint. 

838
00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,200
Devops really became a thing 
after Tech. 

839
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,900
Stop being my day-to-day job. 
The devops was the way of the 

840
00:44:30,900 --> 00:44:33,700
industry, addressing the 
constraint to agility in the 

841
00:44:33,700 --> 00:44:36,800
system. 
So now we have Amazon statistic,

842
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,400
every eleven point, three 
seconds or whatever it is, so we

843
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,600
can deploy change. 
Now in seconds, but remember the

844
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,600
corollary there is always a 
Restraint, if you can create a 

845
00:44:46,607 --> 00:44:49,500
shippable increment, every two 
weeks, if you can deploy in 

846
00:44:49,500 --> 00:44:53,600
seconds, but it takes you three 
or four months to hire the right

847
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,600
person. 
It takes you nine months, 

848
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:57,400
either. 
Budget change approved. 

849
00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:01,700
It takes you six or seven months
to get a vendor engage. 

850
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:05,700
You have to wait for the next 
project control board to approve

851
00:45:05,700 --> 00:45:09,200
the next phase gate, or whatever
process project that you're 

852
00:45:09,200 --> 00:45:12,600
running. 
Despite the devops, despite the 

853
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:18,000
agile. 
Your agility is By HR or Finance

854
00:45:18,100 --> 00:45:21,400
or the pmo or compliance or 
wherever happens to be inside 

855
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,600
your organization? 
So a large part of business 

856
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,900
agility is actually just finding
the constraint figuring out 

857
00:45:26,900 --> 00:45:32,100
where to apply or create agility
within the system because it's 

858
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:35,000
what stopping your teams from 
going faster. 

859
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,500
This is why business agility is 
so important. 

860
00:45:37,500 --> 00:45:42,200
Even for Tech teams right now. 
Agile transformations in devops.

861
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:45,100
Transformations are hitting 
diminishing returns. 

862
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:49,200
All because the investment in 
the transformation is no longer 

863
00:45:49,300 --> 00:45:53,600
at the point of the constraint. 
So for you and your teams for 

864
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:57,100
all the listeners out there for 
you, to actually run at the 

865
00:45:57,100 --> 00:45:59,400
speed that, you know, you can 
run at. 

866
00:45:59,700 --> 00:46:02,200
We have to address the 
constraint to agility in the 

867
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:07,400
system, not necessarily in your 
team more, devops more capital. 

868
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,900
A agile is in many 
organizations, not going to help

869
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:13,600
because that's not where the 
constraint is. 

870
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:16,500
It's like optimizing the wheels.
When the engine team is the 

871
00:46:16,500 --> 00:46:19,300
constraint, so that's pretty 
much sum up. 

872
00:46:19,300 --> 00:46:21,600
All the latest that we have in 
this world. 

873
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,500
Probably also in the software 
development, or the devops will 

874
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:27,400
things are pretty great because 
we have new techniques, new 

875
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:31,400
tools, new practices, whatever 
that is, but I hear what you say

876
00:46:31,400 --> 00:46:34,300
is that from other parts of the 
business, like the hiring, the 

877
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:37,800
budgeting the procurement 
approval, probably also need 

878
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,700
some kind of new practices, 
theories or tools, and all that.

879
00:46:41,900 --> 00:46:44,800
So that wraps up our discussion 
about business agility due to 

880
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,300
time. 
But before I let you go Evan, so

881
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:50,200
I have one question for all the 
guests, which is about three 

882
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:52,700
technical leadership wisdom. 
So, can you share? 

883
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:55,300
What are your three technical 
leadership wisdom for us? 

884
00:46:55,900 --> 00:47:01,400
So, first is I define success in
business, and in technology, 

885
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:05,900
with three things, competence, 
empathy, and confidence. 

886
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,500
I'm assuming most of you, as 
listeners are competent. 

887
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,600
You're good at your jobs. 
You wouldn't be listening to 

888
00:47:11,607 --> 00:47:13,500
this kind of podcast. 
If you want, you're there, 

889
00:47:13,500 --> 00:47:17,500
you're trying to learn empathy. 
Is just as important because 

890
00:47:17,500 --> 00:47:20,100
competence without empathy is 
arrogance. 

891
00:47:20,500 --> 00:47:24,200
So you need to listen to others,
listen to your customers, put 

892
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,700
yourself in their shoes, think 
about others, from their 

893
00:47:27,700 --> 00:47:30,500
perspective. 
And the last is confidence, 

894
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:34,700
which is the ability to stand up
and stand your ground. 

895
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:39,600
The ability to say, I've got an 
idea and as about and the 

896
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,900
empathy, lets you say, oh my 
idea was wrong, but the 

897
00:47:42,900 --> 00:47:45,100
confidence is what puts you 
forward. 

898
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,500
And if you have those three 
things competence, confidence 

899
00:47:49,600 --> 00:47:52,400
and empathy. 
And then that is how you're 

900
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,800
going to be successful in any 
role that you take on. 

901
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,000
Those are the three things. 
Those are three skills that you 

902
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,700
all need to develop. 
Well, it's short concise and 

903
00:48:03,700 --> 00:48:06,300
pretty insightful actually. 
So I agree with the confidence 

904
00:48:06,300 --> 00:48:09,400
part as well because sometimes 
you may be competent and you 

905
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:12,100
probably have good empathy. 
But if you never speak up or 

906
00:48:12,100 --> 00:48:15,100
give it a try, at least you 
probably won't go forward as 

907
00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:16,000
far. 
Yes, you can. 

908
00:48:16,300 --> 00:48:19,600
It's actually worse than that 
competence and empathy without 

909
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:22,900
confidence. 
You may be trustworthy, but 

910
00:48:22,900 --> 00:48:24,300
people may not trust. 
You. 

911
00:48:24,600 --> 00:48:30,000
Humans, We Trust confidence. 
We shouldn't because often 

912
00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:33,400
confidence and empathy without 
competence is fraud. 

913
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,000
Let's say we see that in a lot 
of politicians, but if you have 

914
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:41,000
competence empathy and 
confidence, you will be trusted.

915
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:44,700
You'll be seen as trustworthy. 
But if you only have two of 

916
00:48:44,700 --> 00:48:47,700
those and Missing the 
confidence, then the people 

917
00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:50,400
around you, your bosses their 
bosses. 

918
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:52,900
Maybe your boss. 
Knows your peers. 

919
00:48:52,900 --> 00:48:56,400
No, but your boss's boss and 
your boss's boss's boss. 

920
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,000
They either won't see you or 
they won't be able to build that

921
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,500
personal sense of trust with 
you. 

922
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,800
Not because you're not 
trustworthy just because you're 

923
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,300
not expressing it. 
Pretty insightful. 

924
00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:11,000
Reminder, for actually all of 
us, especially the pakis. 

925
00:49:11,200 --> 00:49:14,700
Some of us probably are not the 
most confident individuals in 

926
00:49:14,700 --> 00:49:18,700
any Company, so when you get a 
chance, maybe you should step up

927
00:49:18,700 --> 00:49:21,000
and be more confident. 
So that like just what happened 

928
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:24,100
said, many more people will be 
able to put their trust on you. 

929
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:27,100
So thanks everyone for spending.
Your time is really great. 

930
00:49:27,200 --> 00:49:30,500
So where can people find you 
online or about the work about 

931
00:49:30,500 --> 00:49:34,200
the research that you've done? 
So check out the business 

932
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,300
agility Institute website is 
business agility dot Institute. 

933
00:49:38,500 --> 00:49:40,900
I'm still amazed at how many 
top-level domains there are. 

934
00:49:40,900 --> 00:49:43,300
In fact that dot Institute is a 
top-level domain. 

935
00:49:43,600 --> 00:49:46,100
Look me up on LinkedIn. 
My My only request is, if you're

936
00:49:46,100 --> 00:49:49,100
going to connect with me on 
LinkedIn, tell me that you heard

937
00:49:49,100 --> 00:49:52,700
me on this podcast. 
I get hundreds of LinkedIn 

938
00:49:52,700 --> 00:49:55,700
requests every week and I don't 
connect with people. 

939
00:49:55,700 --> 00:49:58,300
Unless I know who they are. 
I know how they've found me. 

940
00:49:58,300 --> 00:50:02,200
So tell me that you heard me on 
this podcast and I'll connect 

941
00:50:02,200 --> 00:50:04,500
with you. 
Thanks for sharing those tips. 

942
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,400
So, thanks again, everyone. 
I wish you good luck with all 

943
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,300
your business agility, you know,
research and also, you know 

944
00:50:10,300 --> 00:50:13,400
trying to revolutionize so to 
speak the other parts of the 

945
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:17,600
company that has not been Into 
more a gel thank you. 

946
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,400
It's been a great conversation, 
and I hope I can impart some 

947
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:22,900
good ideas. 
So thank you very much. 

948
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:28,900
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying right 

949
00:50:28,900 --> 00:50:31,700
till the end. 
If you highly enjoyed, please 

950
00:50:31,700 --> 00:50:34,500
share it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

951
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:37,300
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

952
00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:40,400
And if you're new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

953
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:43,300
and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

954
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,100
It really, really helps me a lot
in order to grow these podcasts 

955
00:50:47,100 --> 00:50:49,700
better. 
You can also find the full show 

956
00:50:49,700 --> 00:50:53,200
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at tackle, the 

957
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:56,500
journal, the death website 
including The full transcript, 

958
00:50:56,600 --> 00:51:00,300
interesting quotes and links to 
the resources and mentions from 

959
00:51:00,300 --> 00:51:03,100
the conversation. 
And lastly make sure to 

960
00:51:03,100 --> 00:51:05,500
subscribe to the show's mailing 
list on technology. 

961
00:51:05,500 --> 00:51:09,000
No, the deaf to get notified for
any future episodes. 

962
00:51:09,300 --> 00:51:12,100
Stay tuned for the next 
technique Journal episode. 

963
00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:13,800
And until then. 
Goodbye.