1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,200 Hey, a quick message. For those of you who are 2 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:04,300 listening to this episode on Spotify. 3 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:07,500 I have a small favor to ask Spotify. 4 00:00:07,500 --> 00:00:10,100 Now allows mobile users to rate podcasts. 5 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:13,300 I would really appreciate it. If you can take a quick, pause 6 00:00:13,300 --> 00:00:16,100 to go to the technique Journal podcast page, and leave your 7 00:00:16,100 --> 00:00:18,800 favorite show. Your best rating on Spotify. 8 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,800 It will help me a lot to get this podcast to reach more 9 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,300 people on the platform. Thanks a lot. 10 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,700 So you'll see this happen. Maybe you've experienced this 11 00:00:28,700 --> 00:00:31,400 yourself so on. Often we go into a meeting. 12 00:00:31,500 --> 00:00:33,800 We come out of the meeting, everyone's ready to go. 13 00:00:34,100 --> 00:00:35,800 And then we come back and a week later. 14 00:00:35,800 --> 00:00:37,800 We feel like we're having the same meeting again. 15 00:00:38,100 --> 00:00:42,000 We probably can all think of experience or maybe one too many 16 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,100 that we've had where we feels like we're just doing the same 17 00:00:44,100 --> 00:00:45,500 thing again. Again. 18 00:00:45,900 --> 00:00:49,300 It's frustrating people leave their jobs because of this 19 00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:51,200 pattern. Oftentimes. 20 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:53,100 It's not about. What's being said, is the fact 21 00:00:53,100 --> 00:00:55,300 that there's not a shared understanding of what's being 22 00:00:55,300 --> 00:00:58,100 said? And no one is in a position or 23 00:00:58,100 --> 00:00:59,800 understands that it needs to be reconciled. 24 00:01:00,500 --> 00:01:03,500 What happens, a lot of times is this, when it does come time to 25 00:01:03,500 --> 00:01:06,100 getting reconciled, you are in a state of crisis. 26 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:13,900 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya with 27 00:01:13,900 --> 00:01:17,200 Robin. And you're listening to the 28 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,500 technology, you know, podcast the show where I'll be bringing 29 00:01:20,500 --> 00:01:23,600 you the greatest technical leaders practitioners and 30 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,400 thought leaders in the industry, who discuss about their Journey 31 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:32,100 ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a 32 00:01:32,100 --> 00:01:35,600 highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your 33 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,900 personal work. So let's dive into our Journal. 34 00:01:44,000 --> 00:01:46,600 Hello to all of you, my good friends and listeners. 35 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:50,000 Welcome to another new episode of the Tecla Journal podcast, 36 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:52,100 with me, Ojos, Henry, Surya Robin. 37 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,500 Thank you for tuning in today, listening to this episode. 38 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,600 If this is your first time listening to tackle, it Journal, 39 00:01:58,900 --> 00:02:02,300 subscribe, and follow the show on your favorite podcast app and 40 00:02:02,300 --> 00:02:05,800 social media on LinkedIn, Twitter, and Instagram, and if 41 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,199 you are a regular listener and enjoy listening to the episode, 42 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:12,200 It's will you subscribe as a patron at technology? 43 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,900 Not Dev slash Patron and support my journey to continue producing 44 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:20,600 great technology, new episodes every week, based on some 45 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,200 statistics, a lot of digital products, and services fail. 46 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:28,500 And the number quoted could be as high as 70 to 90%. 47 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:30,700 That is a very high failure rate. 48 00:02:31,100 --> 00:02:33,400 While there could be many reasons that lead to those 49 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,400 failures. We are going to learn one of the 50 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:39,100 common reason in our episode. Today, my guest for today's 51 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:42,300 episode. Is Jonathan Hensley, he is the 52 00:02:42,300 --> 00:02:46,500 co-founder and CEO of emerge. A digital product consulting 53 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:51,000 firm and the author of alignment overcoming, internal sabotage 54 00:02:51,000 --> 00:02:54,000 and digital product failure in this episode. 55 00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:57,500 Jonathan first shared his main motivation for writing 56 00:02:57,500 --> 00:03:00,500 alignment, which is to understand why digital products 57 00:03:00,500 --> 00:03:03,600 and services fail. So commonly he then shared the 58 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,900 concept of alignment and why it is so important for leaders to 59 00:03:06,900 --> 00:03:09,200 get it right in order to deliver, sir. 60 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,900 Successful great products, and services and a fun fact. 61 00:03:12,900 --> 00:03:15,700 The concept of alignment actually aligns with our 62 00:03:15,700 --> 00:03:19,900 biological need Jonathan. Then explain the danger of when 63 00:03:19,900 --> 00:03:22,300 organization is at war with itself. 64 00:03:22,700 --> 00:03:25,600 And what are some of the common reasons that cause internal 65 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,600 misalignments Jonathan shared how leaders can work towards 66 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,100 creating alignment and why it is important to move away from 67 00:03:33,100 --> 00:03:36,700 monolithic product thinking, and move more towards platform 68 00:03:36,700 --> 00:03:40,900 thinking, finally Jonathan. Oh shit, some team alignment 69 00:03:40,900 --> 00:03:44,300 recipes that can help transform one team to become a high 70 00:03:44,300 --> 00:03:47,500 performing product team. I love my conversation with 71 00:03:47,500 --> 00:03:51,400 Jonathan learning about the concept of alignment and how to 72 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,700 avoid common internal misalignment in an organization. 73 00:03:55,100 --> 00:03:58,700 I think sometimes alignment is mostly assume within a team or 74 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:02,500 company, but the actual effort to build a true alignment is 75 00:04:02,500 --> 00:04:04,800 something that any great leader should strive. 76 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,400 For if you also enjoy and find this episode useful. 77 00:04:08,700 --> 00:04:11,900 I Hu to share it with someone, you know, either your friends or 78 00:04:11,908 --> 00:04:15,000 colleagues who would also benefit from listening to this 79 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,700 episode. Also leave a rating and review 80 00:04:17,700 --> 00:04:20,800 on your podcast app or share about this episode on your 81 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:23,900 social media before we continue to the episode. 82 00:04:24,100 --> 00:04:26,400 Let's hear some words from our sponsor. 83 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,500 Today's episode is proudly sponsored by skills matter. 84 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,500 The global community and events platform with more than 100,000 85 00:04:34,500 --> 00:04:38,300 software professionals here members can organize their 86 00:04:38,300 --> 00:04:41,000 learning experience. Around the technology topics. 87 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:44,800 They care about most you get on-demand access to their latest 88 00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:48,100 content thought, leadership insights, as well as the 89 00:04:48,100 --> 00:04:52,300 exciting schedule of tech events running across all time zones. 90 00:04:52,700 --> 00:04:56,300 So whether devops our data science is your bus or you're a 91 00:04:56,300 --> 00:05:00,200 fan of functional programming or all things Cloud, you can make 92 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:04,000 real connections with people who share your interests head on 93 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,000 over to skills method or calm to become part of the tech 94 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,100 community that matters most to you. 95 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,600 It's free to join and you will find it easy to keep up with the 96 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:18,100 latest tech Trends, everyone. Welcome back to another new 97 00:05:18,100 --> 00:05:20,600 episode of the package. You know, today I have with me, 98 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:25,300 a guest named Jonathan Hensley. He's the CEO of Evil Arch, which 99 00:05:25,300 --> 00:05:28,700 is a digital product agency. He helps his clients to 100 00:05:28,700 --> 00:05:31,300 transform. This is strategies the user 101 00:05:31,300 --> 00:05:34,700 needs and new technologies into valuable products and services. 102 00:05:35,300 --> 00:05:38,900 So, Jonathan is an accomplished writer and also speaks a lot 103 00:05:38,900 --> 00:05:42,300 about Top management and users digital Transformations. 104 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:45,900 So he recently published a book titled alignment. 105 00:05:45,900 --> 00:05:49,100 And today, we'll be covering a lot about the book and why it is 106 00:05:49,100 --> 00:05:52,200 important to have alignment. So Jonathan, welcome you to the 107 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,900 show, really looking forward to learning from you about 108 00:05:54,900 --> 00:05:57,700 alignment today. Thank you so much for having me 109 00:05:57,700 --> 00:06:00,600 on the show Henry. So first of all, maybe Jenna 110 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:03,500 that, if you can help to introduce yourself by people who 111 00:06:03,500 --> 00:06:06,600 are not aware about you yet, maybe telling us more about your 112 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,100 highlights or maybe turning points in your career that you 113 00:06:09,300 --> 00:06:12,200 Would like to share with all of us, sure. 114 00:06:12,300 --> 00:06:16,400 So, I am originally from San Francisco, grew up in the heart 115 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,700 of Silicon Valley, right in Palo Alto. 116 00:06:19,100 --> 00:06:21,200 My career started at a very young age. 117 00:06:21,300 --> 00:06:26,700 I was a nerd at heart from the very beginning and at a time, 118 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:31,900 growing up in Silicon Valley, where I could go to the campus 119 00:06:31,900 --> 00:06:34,200 for Hewlett Packard and do software. 120 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,600 Meetups, with these incredibly brilliant Engineers who would 121 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,700 take a kid under their wing and Trade for parts to build 122 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:43,500 computers and talk about the latest approaches of writing 123 00:06:43,500 --> 00:06:46,500 software. And so I had this very early 124 00:06:46,500 --> 00:06:50,200 passion that started with technology because of where I 125 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:56,100 was that led me into a lifelong pursuit of using technology to 126 00:06:56,100 --> 00:06:59,800 help people improve the way that they work and live a huge 127 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:02,900 turning point. In that process passion. 128 00:07:02,900 --> 00:07:06,400 I would say for me with the emergence of the internet and 129 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:12,100 then also the.com bust in The early 2000s where I saw really 130 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:14,200 amazing transformation taking place. 131 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,400 There was many people who were really upset and overwhelmed 132 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,700 with this big bubble bursting in this transition. 133 00:07:20,700 --> 00:07:24,400 What you started to see is an incredible industry. 134 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,700 Take its first step towards maturing where Innovation was at 135 00:07:28,700 --> 00:07:32,200 the heart of it. It really instilled to me at a 136 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,900 very young age as a young, professional the opportunity to 137 00:07:35,900 --> 00:07:40,800 understand the psychology of how new OG impacts and the way that 138 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,900 we live and work, how you do business, when you're in the 139 00:07:43,907 --> 00:07:48,100 technology sector that has become a driving force of 140 00:07:48,100 --> 00:07:51,400 curiosity for me, ever since, I've never let go of that 141 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,900 incredible feeling of being a part of that time, and seeing 142 00:07:54,900 --> 00:07:58,300 the companies that had huge Office Buildings full of people 143 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:02,100 one day and gone the next, and then in entirely new, stream of 144 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:06,000 innovation and Entrepreneurship come through in a very short 145 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,100 period of time right after and to be a part of that. 146 00:08:09,300 --> 00:08:12,300 That to see the evolution of Hardware software coming 147 00:08:12,300 --> 00:08:15,900 together in that time period. It's one of my greatest memories 148 00:08:15,900 --> 00:08:18,600 and really did set the tone for my entire career. 149 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,700 Really interesting that you actually grew up in the center 150 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:25,100 of the Innovation side of the world. 151 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:27,700 So to speak. So Silicon Valley was well known 152 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:30,600 since the beginning of due to that you have seen it ups and 153 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:32,900 downs, I guess. And now it's kind of like UPS 154 00:08:32,900 --> 00:08:35,299 again, with all this space and Technology changes. 155 00:08:35,500 --> 00:08:38,799 I'm sure you have learned a lot of things in Silicon Valley, but 156 00:08:38,799 --> 00:08:41,900 what You tell for people who haven't been there before, what 157 00:08:41,900 --> 00:08:44,600 will be the best description of Silicon Valley? 158 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,800 Or maybe it's culture. I think the Silicon Valley 159 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:50,200 culture. It's changed a lot. 160 00:08:50,300 --> 00:08:54,900 It went from the idea of starting a tech company out of 161 00:08:54,900 --> 00:08:58,100 your garage, which is the beginnings of many famous 162 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:01,600 stories, and it's evolved into this incredible AP. 163 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,400 Better for Innovation and coming together with Venture Capital. 164 00:09:05,900 --> 00:09:09,100 It's become an epicenter to bring people together from all. 165 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:12,800 All over the world to want to contribute to technology and be 166 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,100 a part of it. And I think that the Bay Area 167 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:18,900 has an energy all of it cell that is very hard to produce or 168 00:09:18,900 --> 00:09:21,500 recreate. You can see it and feel it, 169 00:09:21,500 --> 00:09:24,100 anywhere you go. There's a conversation every 170 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:27,500 coffee shop about the next big Tech thing that's happening or 171 00:09:27,500 --> 00:09:29,300 solving that problem. What? 172 00:09:29,300 --> 00:09:32,700 I loved most personally about that environment is that there's 173 00:09:32,700 --> 00:09:36,000 this constant pursuit of solving, the next problem and I 174 00:09:36,008 --> 00:09:40,000 think that it creates such a unique place in the I've had the 175 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,700 benefit of traveling around the world and speaking a lot in 176 00:09:42,700 --> 00:09:45,900 teaching and being a participant and learning from so many other 177 00:09:45,900 --> 00:09:48,700 great people. But San Francisco is unique in 178 00:09:48,700 --> 00:09:51,700 its own way of how people come together to do. 179 00:09:51,700 --> 00:09:54,100 Just that and solve problems. And I think it will continue to 180 00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:56,400 be a very special place for a very long time. 181 00:09:56,900 --> 00:09:59,200 Thanks for sharing that. So for me, I myself have an 182 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,700 experience with looking there. So it's really great to see a 183 00:10:01,700 --> 00:10:04,400 such passionate people, you know, looking together and 184 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,300 trying to solve the next big problem. 185 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,100 So, moving onto the book that you just recently published. 186 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:11,900 This shit's titled alignment. Maybe you can share a little 187 00:10:11,900 --> 00:10:13,800 bit. Why did you write the book? 188 00:10:13,900 --> 00:10:17,900 What kind of problems that you saw and you try to convey as a 189 00:10:17,900 --> 00:10:20,100 message in the book? Sure. 190 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:22,800 So the book came out of a labor of love. 191 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,500 I originally started the process about three years ago and 192 00:10:26,500 --> 00:10:30,400 writing this book and it was out of my own curiosity and the work 193 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,900 that we do it emerge around understanding why do digital 194 00:10:33,900 --> 00:10:37,800 products and services? So commonly fail so depending on 195 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:41,600 the statistics you would People say that products fail anywhere 196 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:44,800 between 70 and maybe 90 plus percent. 197 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:48,700 We worked with a lot of amazing people who have consistently 198 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:51,200 beaten those odds, and they haven't just delivered one great 199 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:52,500 product. It's been successful. 200 00:10:52,500 --> 00:10:54,800 They've delivered multiple products in their careers. 201 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,400 And so when you look at that, there's an incredible story 202 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:02,900 behind that data about what's happening and what's different. 203 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,700 We had been a part of many successful products. 204 00:11:05,700 --> 00:11:08,600 We'd worked on some really challenging products and I 205 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:12,300 wanted To step back and understand the bigger story. 206 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:16,300 So, what started as a passion project to really deep dive into 207 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:20,400 the study of failure, quickly became a process of interviewing 208 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,400 product, managers designers engineers and Executives Chief 209 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:28,800 product officer, CEOs, and cios of companies. 210 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,200 And starting to try to understand, and codify what was 211 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:35,500 happening differently inside of the companies that could 212 00:11:35,500 --> 00:11:39,700 continuously deliver great products and services that Name 213 00:11:39,700 --> 00:11:42,500 the goal of the book is to bring that forward. 214 00:11:42,500 --> 00:11:47,900 So that leaders had a guy in a way to collaborate and Inspire 215 00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:51,700 and work with their teams and for product teams who felt stuck 216 00:11:51,900 --> 00:11:54,900 to take ownership of the conversation and have a tool 217 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:59,500 that they could use to work up Street and bring new insight and 218 00:11:59,500 --> 00:12:02,700 knowledge to management and Leadership to say, there's a 219 00:12:02,708 --> 00:12:05,800 different way to think about some of these things that can 220 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:09,400 help us be successful. And so, that was really Lee. 221 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:12,900 What the book became all about is becoming that tool for 222 00:12:12,900 --> 00:12:16,000 product leaders and teams to work together to create great 223 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,000 products and services. So you mentioned a very 224 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,900 interesting statistics. I think this traditionally in 225 00:12:21,900 --> 00:12:25,500 the past, they say it, projects always fail and I'll digital 226 00:12:25,500 --> 00:12:28,400 products, and services. Also, still statistically very 227 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,600 highly likely to fail, like you mentioned, 70 to 90 plus 228 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:33,400 percent. That is actually pretty high to 229 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,000 me. So why do you think all these 230 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,800 things happen technologies have improved a lot. 231 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,900 People also have learned So many people just pouring over 232 00:12:40,900 --> 00:12:43,400 knowledge on the Block's webinars and all that. 233 00:12:43,500 --> 00:12:46,100 Why still? It's not soft why digital 234 00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:49,500 products still fading? Well, there's a lot of common 235 00:12:49,500 --> 00:12:51,700 answers to that. I would say the most common 236 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:55,200 answer that you would hear from people is that there's a lack of 237 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,500 Market fit while that is, I think a huge issue and I don't 238 00:12:59,500 --> 00:13:03,300 want to make it any smaller than it is because it is substantial. 239 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:06,000 Honestly. I think it's because a lot of 240 00:13:06,008 --> 00:13:09,800 companies skip the fundamentals. What they're Doing is that 241 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,100 they're looking for shortcuts and quick wins. 242 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:19,300 They're emphasizing the approach from their vantage point. 243 00:13:19,500 --> 00:13:22,500 If you're a product leader and you have an engineering 244 00:13:22,500 --> 00:13:25,500 background, you're going to come at it from an engineering point 245 00:13:25,500 --> 00:13:27,700 of view. And if you're a great product 246 00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:30,500 manager, who's maybe a great business analyst, you're going 247 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,000 to come from it, from an analyst perspective. 248 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,800 And so there's nothing wrong with that. 249 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,500 But the challenge is, is when you become that product, Or that 250 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:43,400 product manager you need to now have the responsibility to bring 251 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:48,300 a holistic point of view to how that product is created around 252 00:13:48,300 --> 00:13:50,800 solving, whatever. The problem is that product 253 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,700 helps fulfill and the fundamentals of that get missed 254 00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:55,300 a lot. They get missed in business. 255 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:59,200 And then what happens is when those things get missed, instead 256 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,600 of having empowered product teams that are really there to 257 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,100 solve problems. What you end up, having is teams 258 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:09,000 that are fulfilling the requirements working towards 259 00:14:09,100 --> 00:14:12,500 Hope instead of outcomes, some might take that harsh, but it's 260 00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:16,300 completely true. The work becomes ungrounded, two 261 00:14:16,300 --> 00:14:20,600 foundational principles that are essential to allow your team to 262 00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:23,900 solve problems. Effectively, it making sure 263 00:14:23,900 --> 00:14:27,000 those problems are being solved in a way that align with the 264 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,400 market aligned with the organization's resources and 265 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,700 capabilities and having the teamwork at its best possible 266 00:14:34,700 --> 00:14:37,800 level of performance to achieve the outcome that's been set 267 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:39,900 forth. And so I think That there's a 268 00:14:39,900 --> 00:14:43,400 fundamental aspect there, that is really holding many companies 269 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,900 back. And I also found one of the 270 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:48,700 quote, in the book. It mentioned that organizational 271 00:14:48,700 --> 00:14:52,500 leaders are lured by the promise of Innovations and Technology 272 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,100 without understanding the fundamental requirements that 273 00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:56,800 guide initiatives to the Finish Line. 274 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,100 I mean, yes, there are plenty of Technology, breakthroughs 275 00:15:00,100 --> 00:15:02,100 Innovations. Maybe we can call out like 276 00:15:02,100 --> 00:15:07,400 blockchain or maybe a iCloud. Do you think that all these new 277 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,000 Innovations? Also, in a sense? 278 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:12,000 And play a part in to the failure of all these digital 279 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:15,200 products they do. Absolutely. 280 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,300 But it's actually not the Technology's fault. 281 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,100 Let me expand on that. So there's something called a 282 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:22,600 law. The idea of this is that 283 00:15:22,600 --> 00:15:26,500 people's expectations of Technology are too high in the 284 00:15:26,500 --> 00:15:27,900 beginning. When a new technology is 285 00:15:27,900 --> 00:15:29,400 introduced. So let's use artificial 286 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:33,000 intelligence as the example. When a I was first introduced, 287 00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:34,900 it was introduced back in the 80s. 288 00:15:34,900 --> 00:15:36,800 I can remember it being a major thing. 289 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:40,200 It became another theme in the late 90s and It's a major thing. 290 00:15:40,200 --> 00:15:42,500 Again. Our expectations of what 291 00:15:42,500 --> 00:15:46,500 artificial intelligence is capable of doing in can do, has 292 00:15:46,500 --> 00:15:48,700 been ahead of the technology itself. 293 00:15:48,700 --> 00:15:53,600 For decades very shortly. Our expectations will be behind 294 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,600 the actual capabilities of that technology, but it's taken 30 295 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,100 plus years for that to actually be true. 296 00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,800 And this is really something that is an incredibly common 297 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,000 thing. So you see a new technology, get 298 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:08,800 introduced our expectations in the excitement and the buzz 299 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:10,500 around. And it is incredibly High. 300 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,400 It doesn't meet those expectations people, abandon 301 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:16,700 that technology, or move away from it, to either, what they 302 00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:20,300 knew that would work before or the next thing, those that are 303 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:22,600 in the technology to build these incredible Innovations of 304 00:16:22,608 --> 00:16:25,300 Technologies. They're proving their learning 305 00:16:25,300 --> 00:16:27,700 their in this continuous learning cycle, and then 306 00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:31,600 eventually they get there. And so This Promise in these 307 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,300 expectations, Gap is really a huge thing that has to be 308 00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:38,600 managed correctly. When you take a leader in an 309 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:40,600 organization. Asian, they would be the leader 310 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:42,400 of that organization. If they weren't really good at 311 00:16:42,408 --> 00:16:46,200 their job, very smart individual, able to make good 312 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:48,600 decisions with very little information. 313 00:16:48,900 --> 00:16:51,700 It's challenging if they can't manage that expectation of that 314 00:16:51,700 --> 00:16:53,900 technology. And that isn't something that's 315 00:16:53,900 --> 00:16:57,400 talked about, it's not something that is at the Forefront of our 316 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,600 conversations. When we talk about Innovation 317 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:03,200 and new technologies and that's not how technology is sold. 318 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:06,300 Why would I sell you a promise that's going to fall flat. 319 00:17:06,599 --> 00:17:08,800 So there's this disconnect that happens. 320 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,000 Very Very early on in new technologies. 321 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,800 Those technologies have to evolve in order to meet 322 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:18,500 expectations and leaders have to be able to diagnose what phases 323 00:17:18,500 --> 00:17:22,099 that technology in and what is its propensity to actually drive 324 00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:26,000 change effectively at a lower cost than transitioning from the 325 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,800 way that we do business today. And I think what are the 326 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:32,100 fundamental maybe requirements or to speak on skill set that 327 00:17:32,100 --> 00:17:34,500 you want to emphasize on the book is actually called 328 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:36,600 alignment. I think many people would have 329 00:17:36,600 --> 00:17:39,700 understood about the term alignment, but maybe Your view 330 00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:41,800 as the author of this book. Can you help to describe? 331 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,600 What do you thing is alignment? And why is it so critical for 332 00:17:45,600 --> 00:17:49,000 people or teams to actually have this alignment for the success 333 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:51,100 of their either? Digital products or Services? 334 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:52,500 Sure. Sure. 335 00:17:52,500 --> 00:17:56,700 I think alignment is one of the most commonly assumed things 336 00:17:56,700 --> 00:18:00,500 from many people. It is probably in many cases, 337 00:18:00,500 --> 00:18:04,400 one of the least understood. So when we talk about alignment 338 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:07,300 in the context of what we're talking about today and in 339 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:10,300 creating products and services, There's four levels of 340 00:18:10,300 --> 00:18:12,500 alignment. We have to consider, and I'll go 341 00:18:12,500 --> 00:18:15,300 from the inside out. So, the Inside Out approach to 342 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:17,000 that we start with the individual. 343 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:21,900 How does an individual know how their work contributes to 344 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:25,000 success of the product. How does that impact its 345 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:27,600 customer? Its users in that product. 346 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,600 How do they know that their work matters? 347 00:18:29,900 --> 00:18:33,200 That's an incredible point of alignment, that individuals need 348 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,000 to have to be passionate to be curious. 349 00:18:37,500 --> 00:18:40,800 And to know that they can It can impact through the work that 350 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:42,900 they do. So whether you're a designer an 351 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:46,900 engineer or a product manager or your oversee, an entire teams 352 00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,100 that individual linemen and understanding how your work 353 00:18:50,100 --> 00:18:54,000 matters becomes foundational and we know engaged a teams and 354 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:57,400 people are far more effective at solving problems. 355 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,600 The second piece to that is team alignment, is everybody on the 356 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:05,100 team, understand their roles. Responsibilities. 357 00:19:05,100 --> 00:19:08,300 Are they accountable? Do they know how cumulatively 358 00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:10,900 they can come? Together to solve problems and 359 00:19:10,900 --> 00:19:13,800 to do great things. And so that's really important. 360 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:17,500 And then the third one is organizational alignment is the 361 00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:21,800 organization aligned. Its resources, expectations 362 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,000 built teams empowered individuals to effectively 363 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:27,700 achieve. The things that the company 364 00:19:27,700 --> 00:19:30,200 exists to do. If those things aren't 365 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,100 happening. It can be very difficult to 366 00:19:33,100 --> 00:19:36,200 align with the market, which is where we find market fit, and 367 00:19:36,208 --> 00:19:38,700 essentially a lining with our customers are our users. 368 00:19:39,700 --> 00:19:44,100 Being able to have enough awareness of what's the actual 369 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:46,800 cost and impact of the problem that were solving. 370 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,900 What's this new idea? How are we solving it better or 371 00:19:49,900 --> 00:19:52,900 differently than someone else? How does that create distinct 372 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,900 competitive advantage or business model opportunity, or 373 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,400 an advantage? That is hard to replicate. 374 00:19:58,900 --> 00:20:03,500 This idea of alignment at all, four levels is essential and in 375 00:20:03,500 --> 00:20:06,900 the top performing organizations, from our research 376 00:20:06,900 --> 00:20:10,900 and work over the years. You find consistently that 377 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:15,500 leaders from the top are working towards alignment at all times 378 00:20:15,900 --> 00:20:19,400 at every level and it's not a one-time exercise. 379 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,500 It's a discipline of incredibly high impact leaders to be 380 00:20:23,500 --> 00:20:26,900 working on that focus of alignment at all four levels. 381 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:28,900 Thanks for sharing all these fault level. 382 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:32,000 So just to recap, there are four different levels, you mentioned 383 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,000 individual teams, organization and Market. 384 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:36,900 I think it's really interesting insights. 385 00:20:36,900 --> 00:20:40,100 Definitely like what you mentioned, we Assume we are all 386 00:20:40,100 --> 00:20:43,400 aligned maybe some speech or maybe some message over the 387 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:46,000 time, you know, you keep repeating yourself, but actually 388 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,500 it's least understood not necessarily people gets to align 389 00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:51,400 to the core. I also found another chord, 390 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,300 which I find really interesting to share the book mention and 391 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:57,200 Enterprise. That is at war with itself will 392 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,600 not have the strength of focus to survive and thrive in today's 393 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,200 competitive environment. So this is a quote from 394 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,200 Professor called John. Oh Whitney. 395 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:08,600 I find it really interesting because we can see it especially 396 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:10,600 in big. Enterprise or maybe big 397 00:21:10,600 --> 00:21:12,400 startups, where people call it politics. 398 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:14,400 So to speak. Can you maybe elaborate a little 399 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,400 bit more on here? What do you mean by at war with 400 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:19,200 itself? Sure. 401 00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:23,900 Well many organizations are built around an old kind of 402 00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:28,100 Commander control model that is part of a byproduct of how 403 00:21:28,100 --> 00:21:31,800 businesses will built and how Innovation started during the 404 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,000 industrial era. What happens is that I'm going 405 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:38,900 to tell you to go do this thing and you're going to do that. 406 00:21:39,100 --> 00:21:40,600 Thing really well and you're going to do it. 407 00:21:40,608 --> 00:21:43,700 A hundred times a day. Now, that's not problem. 408 00:21:43,700 --> 00:21:46,700 Solving that's production. There's a role in that in 409 00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:52,500 business and I get that but when we look at this today, we need 410 00:21:52,500 --> 00:21:55,800 to look at how do we build Empower teams that are 411 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:59,100 autonomous that have the ability to solve problem, great 412 00:21:59,100 --> 00:22:02,200 designers and engineers and producers are expensive 413 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,900 resources. These are brilliant men and 414 00:22:04,900 --> 00:22:08,800 women who need the opportunity to unleash. 415 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:12,300 Their capabilities, their life experience and their expertise 416 00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:16,100 on the problem at hand. And so it's really essential to 417 00:22:16,100 --> 00:22:18,300 do that. When we talk about a company at 418 00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,600 War, we think about, okay. Well, what happens then if I 419 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,100 have different teams with competing priorities, where's my 420 00:22:25,100 --> 00:22:27,700 incentive structure for the organization? 421 00:22:27,900 --> 00:22:31,500 How do I actually create alignment between the product, 422 00:22:31,500 --> 00:22:34,800 the teams and the company? I'll give that one very specific 423 00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,300 thing. Many companies understand the 424 00:22:37,300 --> 00:22:39,500 idea of customer lifetime. Value. 425 00:22:39,900 --> 00:22:42,900 But I would say, many companies also don't understand where fits 426 00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:44,500 into the hierarchy of the company. 427 00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,000 In my opinion. You have the mission or vision 428 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,100 of the company or the product that may be the same in many 429 00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:53,600 cases. And then you have everything in 430 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:57,800 the company from there exist, in order to achieve that Vision. 431 00:22:58,100 --> 00:23:01,700 Well, there is no vision that is possible of being achieved 432 00:23:01,700 --> 00:23:05,500 without customer lifetime value. The number one thing that 433 00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:08,500 everybody in an organization has to realize is no matter who you 434 00:23:08,500 --> 00:23:10,400 are. What division you work in how 435 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:13,200 small or big your company? Everybody contributes to 436 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,700 customer lifetime value? It is the most important metric 437 00:23:16,900 --> 00:23:20,500 of all metrics because everything else is a byproduct 438 00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:22,800 about when it comes to the sustainability of that 439 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:26,900 organization. Many times these kpis for 440 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:31,000 organizations, the expectations, the roles and responsibilities 441 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:36,200 are misaligning to what actually drives the vision of the company 442 00:23:36,500 --> 00:23:38,800 and money is the fuel. That's all it is. 443 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,200 The existence of the company is not to make money, that is the 444 00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,800 fuel by which to achieve that objective and if the 445 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,100 organization is not clear about that. 446 00:23:47,300 --> 00:23:50,600 It's at war with itself. It's competing in cannibalizing 447 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,300 resources. You have people who build these 448 00:23:53,300 --> 00:23:56,900 systems within the organizations and they poured information, or 449 00:23:56,900 --> 00:23:59,000 they're working counterproductive to other 450 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,200 groups in the organization, and they're in Conflict there. 451 00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,000 Misaligned. It's the inverse of alignment 452 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:08,800 that war is happening subtly and many organizations. 453 00:24:08,900 --> 00:24:11,700 It's whether they're 10 people or 10,000 people. 454 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,600 And in some cases. It's all-out War where you have 455 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:18,900 massive transformation, and change taking place right now, 456 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:22,300 some who are embracing that chain and four others, that 457 00:24:22,300 --> 00:24:26,100 creates conflict and scarcity and a lot of fear because 458 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:28,800 there's an uncertain outcome of what that means. 459 00:24:29,300 --> 00:24:33,700 And so this war is happening very naturally in organizations 460 00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:39,300 and is something for leaders to be mindful of I'm not anti I 461 00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:43,000 think conflict can be actually extremely healthy, especially 462 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:46,200 when it's honest. I think that it has to be more 463 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:49,400 about. We need to be able to challenge 464 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:54,000 and go after the hard things and organizations to not allow 465 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,600 ourselves to fall into this unintentional War within. 466 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:02,000 Thanks for sharing the gifts of customer lifetime value and all 467 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:03,500 that. I mean, like companies 468 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,100 intentionally, I believe they understand it, but in practice, 469 00:25:07,100 --> 00:25:09,600 or in execution, sometimes this fall all true because 470 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,900 individuals or just misalignment of objectives or just people 471 00:25:12,900 --> 00:25:17,000 competing unhealthily internally and you brought up another good 472 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,400 analogy. I find it interesting alignment 473 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:23,200 and biological needs actually seamlessly synergized. 474 00:25:23,300 --> 00:25:25,900 Tell us, how do you find these connections between alignment of 475 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,100 actually biology? There are. 476 00:25:28,100 --> 00:25:32,700 So during my research. I was really interested in this 477 00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,100 idea. I've had an interest myself in 478 00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:39,500 Psychology for 25 plus years, but the essence of it, Actually 479 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,100 happened by accident while I was researching. 480 00:25:42,100 --> 00:25:45,100 Well, look, I was aware that from a psychological 481 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:46,700 perspective. We want alignment. 482 00:25:46,700 --> 00:25:49,800 We don't want conflict. We want to find connection. 483 00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:53,700 We want to be part of a team. We want to do great things, that 484 00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:55,700 part of it. Was it really that elusive. 485 00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:59,600 But what happened was, I was in London and I met an individual 486 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,100 by the name of Dan cable, who's one of the leading 487 00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:05,000 neuroscientist in the world, and he's also a professor at the 488 00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,500 London Business School. I was listening to him. 489 00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:11,000 Give a talk about. His book alive at work and he 490 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,600 drew a connection just through anecdote of alignment. 491 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:20,000 I decided I had to meet him and I had to interview him for the 492 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:22,300 book. We ended up having an incredible 493 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:26,400 conversation or around, really understanding that in 494 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,800 Neuroscience. It's been proven that the 495 00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,700 concept of alignment is actually there's a biological need for 496 00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:35,600 it. It goes beyond just psychology, 497 00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,200 but there's a biological component because when we create 498 00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:40,900 alignment and Able to solve problems we drive engagement. 499 00:26:40,900 --> 00:26:44,600 It activates parts of our body with cause and effect, which 500 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:47,600 create a surge of dopamine and satisfaction that comes from 501 00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,900 interaction. And so, you can break down the 502 00:26:50,900 --> 00:26:55,200 importance that it plays in, not just short term, behavior of 503 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,400 people, but long-term sustainable teams and 504 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,500 performance. When you think about this 505 00:27:00,500 --> 00:27:05,000 Dynamic of alignment, at a biological level, his Insight, 506 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:10,000 in research related to, that was absolutely Groundbreaking and 507 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,900 really understanding why this is so critical. 508 00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:16,400 One of the discussions that happen from that. 509 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,200 As you really understand that, if you want to apply it in 510 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:23,800 practice is why empathy is the foundation of great design 511 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:28,200 thinking we just don't intuitively or logically or the 512 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,700 rational side of our brain know, when something's a good 513 00:27:30,700 --> 00:27:32,100 experience. We feel it. 514 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,800 It's impactful. It changes. 515 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,600 Our mood, it changes the way that we feel about ourselves or 516 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,700 the Our men around us. Whatever that may be, that is a 517 00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:45,500 biological reaction, taking place from an experience. 518 00:27:45,900 --> 00:27:48,600 So product teams have to be thinking about that and 519 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:51,700 embracing that from foundationally alignment. 520 00:27:51,700 --> 00:27:53,700 And then bringing themselves into alignment with their 521 00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:57,100 customer, which is a well-documented and discuss 522 00:27:57,100 --> 00:28:01,800 practice and great design. So that entire idea was in an 523 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:06,000 hour, what Dan was completely just connected and became such 524 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,800 an integral part of the book and something that Is probably still 525 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:13,600 one of my favorite aspects of talking about alignment, or when 526 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,100 I work with teams is discussing that very thing. 527 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:18,400 Thanks for sharing the inside CSI. 528 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:19,900 Found it really interesting as well. 529 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,100 And for those leaders who think that your people are not 530 00:28:23,100 --> 00:28:26,200 interested to get alignment. I think it's actually not true. 531 00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:29,900 People biologically need to get alignment so that they can be 532 00:28:30,100 --> 00:28:32,400 what you mentioned, about problem, solving natural 533 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,400 creativity and things like that. So definitely people wants to 534 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:38,700 align, it's about how we can get them. 535 00:28:38,900 --> 00:28:42,200 Line speaking about misalignment, why leaders think 536 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,300 people are not aligned? What do you think are some of 537 00:28:44,300 --> 00:28:46,400 the root causes for misalignment? 538 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,500 So maybe you have seen it in your Consulting and also your 539 00:28:49,500 --> 00:28:51,100 experience being in Silicon Valley. 540 00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:54,800 What are the top two or three? Most misalignment reasons why 541 00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,400 people in the end did not deliver great successful 542 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,000 products. Well, I think, the one thing I 543 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:04,300 started with earlier wrong with this idea of that often, it's 544 00:29:04,300 --> 00:29:07,200 talked about as Market fit. And so, I would say the first 545 00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,100 real issue of misalignment. That you have to acknowledge, is 546 00:29:10,100 --> 00:29:13,700 that reality that many organizations do not know their 547 00:29:13,700 --> 00:29:16,600 users are their customers. They make a lot of assumptions 548 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,300 through their own lens. There's a lot of bias that comes 549 00:29:19,300 --> 00:29:23,700 into practice and often case of misalignment is they have yet to 550 00:29:23,700 --> 00:29:27,300 do the work necessary to understand the problem that 551 00:29:27,300 --> 00:29:31,400 they're solving for their end, customer what the impacts and 552 00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:35,400 ramifications are of that and what the true costs are and what 553 00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:37,400 they're competing for with that product. 554 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,300 Are they competing against? Patter is at 121. 555 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,800 Or are they competing against the psychological need or a 556 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,900 functional need of the product? How do they distinguish that? 557 00:29:47,100 --> 00:29:50,500 Are they competing for cost and time? 558 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:53,900 There's a lot of ways to think about what the exchange is 559 00:29:53,900 --> 00:29:57,200 between the business that is offering the product and in the 560 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,700 actual customer or user. So that's fundamentally. 561 00:30:00,700 --> 00:30:02,900 One of them that has to be acknowledged. 562 00:30:03,300 --> 00:30:05,500 The other one. I think that we see really 563 00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:08,700 common is just not realizing the impact. 564 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,100 Act of siloed knowledge, so organizational complexity in 565 00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:15,400 dealing with the cost of siloed knowledge. 566 00:30:15,700 --> 00:30:18,200 Knowledge management is a very difficult thing for 567 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,000 organizations at scale to be able to do when that information 568 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,800 becomes siloed, within an individual or teams. 569 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,500 You are unintentionally locking, incredible, wealth, of 570 00:30:29,500 --> 00:30:32,200 information and knowledge. And a lot of that knowledge is 571 00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:35,900 yet never documented or mapped. So you see a lot of initiatives 572 00:30:35,900 --> 00:30:38,700 have to start with things like, Journey, mapping, or workflow. 573 00:30:38,900 --> 00:30:42,400 Feed the things like that, just to try to pull the institutional 574 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,400 knowledge forward. Well, that has a lot of impacts, 575 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,300 which we can discuss that. You know, it's probably an 576 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:51,300 entire show in itself. I think the other one out of the 577 00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,900 eight core root causes that we defined that I'd like to focus 578 00:30:54,900 --> 00:30:58,700 on at least today, is this idea of lack of a shared 579 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:01,000 understanding? Let me explain that one a little 580 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:05,000 bit, every group of people or organization every industry for 581 00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:08,000 that matter, has its own language, its own shorthand. 582 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,400 If you will. Has its own acronyms its way of 583 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:13,300 talking about things. It's way of communicating and it 584 00:31:13,300 --> 00:31:15,200 comes naturally out of efficiency. 585 00:31:15,500 --> 00:31:18,400 But when you have a team that's evolved in an organization 586 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,000 that's changing or you're working cross-industry. 587 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,900 The challenge is that my understanding of a word or an 588 00:31:24,900 --> 00:31:28,700 expectation, versus your expectation, may be different. 589 00:31:28,900 --> 00:31:32,400 It really requires individuals, at every level of an 590 00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,600 organization to slow, down the speed up, as the old saying 591 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:40,600 goes, It's this idea of we need to verify By the understanding, 592 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,900 not just what was said, but why? It was said, and what it meant 593 00:31:43,900 --> 00:31:46,700 in order to be able to effectively move forward. 594 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,700 So you'll see this happen. Maybe you've experienced this 595 00:31:50,700 --> 00:31:53,300 yourself. So often we go into a meeting. 596 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,800 We come out of the meeting, everyone's ready to go. 597 00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:57,900 And then we come back and a week later. 598 00:31:57,900 --> 00:31:59,800 We feel like we're having the same meeting again. 599 00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:04,000 We probably can all think of experience or maybe one too many 600 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,100 that we've had where we feels like we're just doing the same 601 00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:08,700 thing again. And again, it's frustrating. 602 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:13,000 Three people, get mad people, get angry people, get concerned 603 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:16,200 people leave their jobs because of this pattern. 604 00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,100 Oftentimes. It's not about. 605 00:32:18,100 --> 00:32:20,200 What's being said, is the fact that there's not a shared 606 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:22,000 understanding of what's being said? 607 00:32:22,300 --> 00:32:25,500 And no one is in a position or understands that it needs to be 608 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:28,100 reconciled. What happens a lot of times is 609 00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:31,300 this, when it does come time to getting reconciled, you are in a 610 00:32:31,308 --> 00:32:34,900 state of Crisis. So it's important that 611 00:32:34,900 --> 00:32:38,700 organizations proactively think about how they build. 612 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,400 A Common Language and manage that in usually it's not managed 613 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,900 by the company. What happens is? 614 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:48,200 It happens organically, but once leadership or teams can take 615 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,600 control of the common language and understand that it also 616 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:54,900 requires building a common understanding their able to 617 00:32:54,908 --> 00:32:58,400 navigate one of the most Insidious root causes of failure 618 00:32:58,500 --> 00:33:01,900 when everything else is aligned. And so that becomes a really 619 00:33:01,900 --> 00:33:05,000 important issue. Thanks for sharing this shit, 620 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,900 understanding, because I've also invited few leaders talking 621 00:33:08,900 --> 00:33:11,500 about software development. Why software projects fail as 622 00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:13,500 well? So, one of the things also 623 00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:15,900 commonly mentioned is about communication and this shared 624 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:18,200 understanding. And that's why the domain driven 625 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,100 design is also one thing that is very popular, this take to 626 00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:23,700 create ubiquitous language like, bounded context. 627 00:33:23,900 --> 00:33:27,100 Make sure that people, either your software, developer product 628 00:33:27,100 --> 00:33:29,300 owner. Whatever role you have the same 629 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:31,800 shared, understanding about whatever common terms that you 630 00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:33,400 use within the team of the organization. 631 00:33:33,900 --> 00:33:36,400 So I think it kind of like ties back from software development 632 00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,600 to product management. Thanks for sharing all these 633 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,100 misalignments. So for people who wants to know 634 00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:44,200 more, what are the other common misalignments, make sure to 635 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,000 check in the book. They are, I think, in total, 636 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,500 eight of them. Moving on from this, we know why 637 00:33:49,500 --> 00:33:52,300 people get misaligned. So what do you think the 638 00:33:52,300 --> 00:33:54,600 responsibility of leader? What can we do? 639 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,700 Practically to actually ensure that people get aligned or maybe 640 00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:01,300 what kind of actions that they need to do to achieve this? 641 00:34:02,100 --> 00:34:06,300 So, I think for leaders, there's a couple of really important 642 00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:10,100 things that go back to that idea of foundational aspects. 643 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:13,500 What I've seen is a lot of the great leaders that I've had the 644 00:34:13,500 --> 00:34:16,699 opportunity to work with or were interviewed for the book or that 645 00:34:16,699 --> 00:34:20,400 I've researched, they are incredibly good at the 646 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,699 fundamentals. I think the first one that is 647 00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:27,699 really important to highlight is this idea of they really 648 00:34:27,699 --> 00:34:31,199 understand the difference between strategy versus 649 00:34:31,199 --> 00:34:35,000 planning. This idea of really getting a 650 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:40,199 grasp that planning can without a great strategy in place, gives 651 00:34:40,199 --> 00:34:45,400 us a false sense of security and false set of expectations that 652 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,600 can be extremely problematic for those listening. 653 00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:52,400 Let me Define just very quickly what the foundation of a good 654 00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,199 strategy has to Encompass. A good strategy has to have a 655 00:34:56,199 --> 00:35:00,300 clear articulated Vision. It has to have a clear 656 00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:03,600 understanding and definition of Problem that you're solving for 657 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:07,400 and has to have a clear outcome for the business and a clear 658 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:09,300 outcome for the customer to find. 659 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:13,200 It has to have a cohesive and comprehensive approach of how 660 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:15,900 you're going to get there. And it has to have a way to 661 00:35:15,900 --> 00:35:19,300 measure forward progress. That's just the foundation. 662 00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,500 I mean, strategy has so many other facets to it, but 663 00:35:22,500 --> 00:35:25,500 fundamentally that is critical. It's not goals. 664 00:35:25,500 --> 00:35:28,100 It's not projections. It's not schedules. 665 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,700 These things are often today to the disservice. 666 00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:36,100 Of people that are trying to do this work there, talked about as 667 00:35:36,100 --> 00:35:40,900 strategies at following a framework strategy is embracing 668 00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:43,800 this new model. It's like that's not a strategy. 669 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,000 That's a tool. Yes, but it's not a clearly 670 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,800 defined strategy. The framework, it might help. 671 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:52,300 You understand what you have to fill in, but it does not take 672 00:35:52,300 --> 00:35:54,300 away any of the work. It's not a shortcut. 673 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,500 So leaders at understand that are one of the reasons they can 674 00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:00,700 do. Such amazing things consistently 675 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:02,900 is because not only They know that but they know how to 676 00:36:02,900 --> 00:36:04,600 delegate it. They know what their 677 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,000 responsibilities in that were kids. 678 00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:11,300 So as an example, a CEO cannot delegate the vision away. 679 00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:13,400 You just can't do it. If they are. 680 00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,400 It's a red flag. If you're going in that 681 00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:17,800 interview, ask him who wrote that Vision. 682 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,600 Maybe lots of people contribute it but who owns it? 683 00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,500 Who's accountable for it? It needs to be that whoever's 684 00:36:23,500 --> 00:36:27,100 running the company. That's an essential piece versus 685 00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,900 really diagnosing understanding, the problem that you need to 686 00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:31,700 solve understanding the outcomes. 687 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:33,200 Sanding. These other facets. 688 00:36:33,500 --> 00:36:36,600 Those are things that you rely on the expertise and skills 689 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,700 across an organization and to bring more definition and more 690 00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,400 Fidelity to that, I think is one aspect. 691 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,100 The other one is I think that leaders today. 692 00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:51,800 There is a necessity to be tried lingual and what I mean by that 693 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,500 is that leaders have to have a strong business design and 694 00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:58,300 Technology Acumen, and I don't mean to act, you have to be 695 00:36:58,300 --> 00:37:01,700 proficient in doing the work, but your Acumen has to be well. 696 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,200 Established in those three together because you need to be 697 00:37:05,207 --> 00:37:07,500 able to build effective teams, which means you need to 698 00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:10,400 understand what type of people skill sets and capabilities. 699 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,600 You need in those to use. You need to understand how to 700 00:37:12,607 --> 00:37:16,300 hold those types of roles and responsibilities accountable to 701 00:37:16,300 --> 00:37:20,200 supporting the organization and you need to be able to Mentor 702 00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:23,700 them and support them. So I think being trilingual and 703 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:26,500 having that knowledge becomes essential for leaders, 704 00:37:26,500 --> 00:37:31,100 especially as more and more organizations are trying to put 705 00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:33,400 emphasis on Jean customer experience. 706 00:37:33,500 --> 00:37:36,600 As just one example, if customer experience is key in your 707 00:37:36,607 --> 00:37:39,600 delivering technology product. You better know design and you 708 00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:43,200 better know Tech and if you don't that's okay backfill that 709 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,500 make sure you have the right people around you build your 710 00:37:45,500 --> 00:37:48,600 team up so that you can do whatever aspect that you do 711 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,800 best, but recognize that either you have that need to have that 712 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,700 skill set, or you need to build a team that can fulfill that 713 00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:57,800 necessity. So that would be to the third 714 00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,500 one is. I think that in this day and 715 00:37:59,500 --> 00:38:02,500 age, we have to stop thinking of products as Individual or 716 00:38:02,508 --> 00:38:05,200 monolithic Solutions. We have to be thinking them as 717 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,800 platforms platform thinking. They think is one of the thing 718 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,700 that is probably on the most bleeding edge, even though 719 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,400 people use the term platforms all the time. 720 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,600 There are very few companies that are actually delivering 721 00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:23,000 true platform products. Today, more and more products 722 00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,700 are going to take that form going forward. 723 00:38:25,700 --> 00:38:30,000 And it's revolutionising the way that traditional businesses are 724 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:32,500 operating. So being able to To understand 725 00:38:32,500 --> 00:38:35,600 that difference and being able to have that interoperability 726 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,600 and scalability is going to become an essential skill for 727 00:38:39,600 --> 00:38:43,400 leaders going forward. When you mention about platform. 728 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,600 Can you tell us more? What do you mean by platform? 729 00:38:45,600 --> 00:38:49,000 Because again, this term is probably commonly used, but 730 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,700 maybe not. Well understood. 731 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:53,800 So you're talking about technology called platform or is 732 00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,500 it something different? What do you mean by platforms 733 00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:59,900 to? Yeah, so the idea of a platform 734 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,300 it's often talked about as Think of it as a Marketplace. 735 00:39:03,500 --> 00:39:07,400 So I have two groups that innately benefit one another, 736 00:39:07,900 --> 00:39:09,800 but there are different types of platforms. 737 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,400 And so when we traditionally think of platforms, we think of 738 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,900 these open marketplaces and Amazon is probably the most 739 00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:19,600 well-known one in the world or something like the app store for 740 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,800 Apple or Google Play are great examples of platforms. 741 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,900 We have platforms as a service for developers that are 742 00:39:26,900 --> 00:39:29,300 incredible. They're not necessarily the same 743 00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:31,700 as a two-sided Market, but they still are in. 744 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,500 It's a platform. They enable you to abstract and 745 00:39:35,500 --> 00:39:38,900 build and cumulative value. So the way that I like to think 746 00:39:38,900 --> 00:39:42,800 about it is understanding platforms. 747 00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:46,800 And the sense of what is the value amplifier in the 748 00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,700 technology or product that I'm creating that, I need to be able 749 00:39:50,700 --> 00:39:54,900 to have the ability to be interoperable across my product 750 00:39:54,900 --> 00:39:58,700 as it evolves, then. How can I build a path for that 751 00:39:58,700 --> 00:40:02,200 platform? That will lead to That 752 00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,800 amplification of value in the most significant way, over time 753 00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,400 companies take very different approaches. 754 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,900 There's one company. I absolutely love based here, in 755 00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,200 the United States, called Rackspace. 756 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,500 They're hosting company. They do manage hosting Services. 757 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,600 They realize that they can actually create a platform out 758 00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:22,400 of a branded concept, which is fanatical support. 759 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,600 Their support structure is absolutely unbelievable and they 760 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:28,800 have innovated existing Technologies of just about the 761 00:40:28,808 --> 00:40:31,400 experience. How do you build a platform and 762 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:34,200 they determine how they can actually amplify that value 763 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,400 across the entire customer Journey, that allows them to 764 00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:41,000 deliver on their promises consistently at scale as they 765 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,800 continue to grow. And so I think leaders need to 766 00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,500 understand that concept of platform thinking so they can 767 00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,600 understand how it applies to the business and what they're 768 00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:52,200 creating. Thanks for emphasizing the 769 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,600 importance of value amplifier. I think this is probably one of 770 00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,500 the critical things when you think about platform what things 771 00:40:58,500 --> 00:41:00,300 that can allow you to amplify the value. 772 00:41:00,300 --> 00:41:03,300 And also allows you to A lot easier, right? 773 00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:05,900 Not necessarily adding more people resources to it. 774 00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:09,400 So we know what leaders need to do, but then it comes back to 775 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,600 the team itself, right? They need to be aligned. 776 00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:14,300 What do you think? Are the recipes that you can 777 00:41:14,300 --> 00:41:17,700 tell us to be a high performing product teams? 778 00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,400 What do you think are? Some of the attributes that you 779 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:23,300 can see from your experience teams that are really fully 780 00:41:23,300 --> 00:41:26,300 aligned and productive and deliver successful products. 781 00:41:27,100 --> 00:41:29,700 Here we've touched on several of the points. 782 00:41:29,900 --> 00:41:33,600 But as they relate to the team, a team needs to have a clear 783 00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,800 strategy. A high-performance teams have a 784 00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,900 clear strategy to follow their not handed requirements. 785 00:41:39,900 --> 00:41:42,600 They're handed problems. There are empowered to make 786 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:46,300 decisions to solve that problem to test and how to solve that 787 00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:49,700 problem. There's a very dangerous term. 788 00:41:49,900 --> 00:41:52,100 It's used everywhere. But especially I find it to be 789 00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:54,000 dangerous. In Silicon Valley is fail, fast 790 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,700 and fail often. It's a management quote. 791 00:41:56,900 --> 00:42:00,100 Fast and fail often. What context some people take it 792 00:42:00,100 --> 00:42:01,700 too literal. That's when it becomes 793 00:42:01,700 --> 00:42:03,400 dangerous. But when you think about it, 794 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:07,900 from how I test hypotheses and how I gather quickly, the best 795 00:42:07,900 --> 00:42:11,600 information cumulatively in the fastest, most efficient way. 796 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:14,100 It's not about failure of the product or the company. 797 00:42:14,300 --> 00:42:19,100 It's their experiments that aspect having that continuous 798 00:42:19,100 --> 00:42:22,700 learning dynamic in a team and high-performance teams as 799 00:42:22,700 --> 00:42:24,600 essential. What it does. 800 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,800 Is it helps Elevate the Of competence of a team when you 801 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,300 decentralize and you re distribute knowledge and 802 00:42:32,300 --> 00:42:35,000 information that's coming both from the customers and from the 803 00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,900 individual experts and contributors within a team that 804 00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:41,100 becomes a huge performance amplifier for a team. 805 00:42:41,500 --> 00:42:45,600 The next one is making sure that you have Knowledge Management 806 00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:48,800 something we talked about before but something as simple as what 807 00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:51,700 are the flows in your product. What's the intended outcome of 808 00:42:51,700 --> 00:42:53,800 your flows? I will tell you probably nine 809 00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:55,800 out of ten product. Managers that I asked that 810 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:56,800 question. Can't answer. 811 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,000 Product manager in my opinion, should be able to answer that 812 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,700 question without having to pull up a single document. 813 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,600 If you don't know what the intended outcome is for those 814 00:43:06,900 --> 00:43:09,300 and then why they need to be improved. 815 00:43:09,300 --> 00:43:12,600 We have to step back and we have to reset because the team is 816 00:43:12,600 --> 00:43:14,400 more focused on delivery than outcome. 817 00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,400 The delivery output doesn't matter. 818 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,700 If we don't know, we're moving towards an intended outcome and 819 00:43:19,700 --> 00:43:23,100 we have a way to measure it. So the high-performance teams 820 00:43:23,100 --> 00:43:25,900 are embracing that Collective competence their building off of 821 00:43:25,900 --> 00:43:28,300 focus and solve. You problems and they're really 822 00:43:28,300 --> 00:43:30,500 emphasize the proper Knowledge Management. 823 00:43:30,500 --> 00:43:35,600 So they can collectively be working on the same things and 824 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,100 the right things at the right time. 825 00:43:37,700 --> 00:43:39,200 Thanks for sharing this attributes. 826 00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,600 So I think people sometimes, yes, we don't understand the 827 00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:44,800 outcome fully, we know the details of it. 828 00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:47,700 But yeah, we done to focus on just delivery the tosser. 829 00:43:47,700 --> 00:43:50,500 The next story in line, what kind of things what features to 830 00:43:50,500 --> 00:43:52,600 build. So, thanks for emphasizing that 831 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,900 we need to understand the outcome without actually pulling 832 00:43:54,900 --> 00:43:56,600 a document. That is also another 833 00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:57,800 interesting. Things that this takes that 834 00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,800 you'll just imagine 9 out of 10 product. 835 00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:02,100 Managers might not be able to answer you the outcome 836 00:44:02,100 --> 00:44:03,700 straightaway on top of their mind. 837 00:44:04,100 --> 00:44:06,200 So this has been a pleasant conversation. 838 00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,400 Jonathan really thank you for sharing all your knowledge due 839 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:11,600 to the time. I think we need to wrap up soon. 840 00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:14,400 But before I let you go, I have one last question that I 841 00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,400 normally ask all my guests which is to share your tree. 842 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:19,800 Technical leadership wisdom. It could be that it could be 843 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:21,600 product. Would you be able to share some 844 00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,900 of the wisdom that you think will be good to share with the 845 00:44:23,900 --> 00:44:26,700 audience here as a learning as wisdom, so to speak? 846 00:44:27,500 --> 00:44:30,800 Yeah, I would say that for my experience, after everything 847 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,600 that we've talked about today. I think that one of the most 848 00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:38,100 important things I found is a technical leader in many 849 00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,300 projects. In cases is really focusing on 850 00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:44,300 my team. And understanding that the most 851 00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:49,100 dangerous thing I can do is bring my ego and my assumptions 852 00:44:49,100 --> 00:44:52,400 to the table. I have found that a great idea 853 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:56,200 can come from anywhere. The most powerful thing I can 854 00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,400 do. As a technical leader is to 855 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,500 Mentor. Those who have passion for 856 00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,900 technology to really deliver incredible things. 857 00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:10,000 So my job as a technical leader, I tend to find is mentoring the 858 00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,400 connection between the impact of their work in creating a place 859 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:20,500 for them to fail successfully quickly and move on to realize 860 00:45:20,500 --> 00:45:24,600 the goal of what we're working towards that has been essential. 861 00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,600 I think with everybody that I've had the The tremendous pleasure 862 00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:30,000 of working with thanks for sharing this. 863 00:45:30,300 --> 00:45:34,000 So Jonathan for people who want to follow you or find more about 864 00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:35,400 the book. Maybe you can share where they 865 00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:37,600 can find it online. Sure. 866 00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:41,300 So the book is available at amazon.com just search for the 867 00:45:41,300 --> 00:45:44,600 title alignment, overcoming, internal sabotage and digital 868 00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,900 product failure. Thanks for that Settle. 869 00:45:46,900 --> 00:45:49,400 Yeah, Jenna bed, really pleasure to have this conversation. 870 00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,900 I wish you good luck and transforming all digital 871 00:45:51,900 --> 00:45:55,500 products and services that you touch to be more successful and 872 00:45:55,500 --> 00:45:57,900 get more alignment. Thank you so much. 873 00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:00,700 It was a pleasure to be on the show and great to have this 874 00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:06,500 conversation with you today. Thank you for listening to this 875 00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:09,900 episode and for staying, right until the end if you highly 876 00:46:09,900 --> 00:46:12,700 enjoyed it, I would appreciate if you share it with your 877 00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:15,700 friends and colleagues who you think would also benefit from 878 00:46:15,700 --> 00:46:18,200 listening to this episode. And if you are new to the 879 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,200 podcast, make sure to subscribe and leave me your valuable 880 00:46:21,200 --> 00:46:23,800 review and feedback. It helps me a lot. 881 00:46:23,800 --> 00:46:25,800 In order to grow this podcast better. 882 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,100 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 883 00:46:29,100 --> 00:46:33,200 the episode page, at Tech Legion l.f website, including the full 884 00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:36,100 transcript interesting. What's and links to the 885 00:46:36,100 --> 00:46:38,400 resources mention from the conversation? 886 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,800 And lastly make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 887 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:45,700 list on pack leader dot f to get notified for any future 888 00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:47,900 episodes. Stay tuned for the next 889 00:46:47,900 --> 00:46:50,500 technology, not episode, and until then. 890 00:46:50,700 --> 00:46:51,300 Goodbye.