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As a leader, I am responsible 
for helping individuals and 

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teams to grow and take 
responsibility. 

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How do you hand over 
responsibility as a leader to 

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the teams and the individuals 
working in the team's. 

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Now, that's basically big shift.
Hey everyone, my name is Henry 

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00:00:19,500 --> 00:00:23,300
Surya with Robin. 
And you're listening to the 

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00:00:23,300 --> 00:00:26,600
technology, you know, podcast 
the show where I'll be bringing 

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00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,700
you the greatest technical 
leaders practitioners and 

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00:00:29,700 --> 00:00:33,500
thought leaders in the industry 
to discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hello, my friends and my 
listeners. 

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00:00:51,900 --> 00:00:54,900
Welcome back to the faculty 
Journal podcast, the show where 

15
00:00:54,900 --> 00:00:57,800
you can learn about technical 
leadership and Excellence from 

16
00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,400
my conversations with great 
thought, leaders in the tech 

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industry. 
If this is your first time 

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listening to technology, you 
know, please subscribe and 

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follow the show on your podcast 
app and on LinkedIn, Twitter and

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Instagram and to support my 
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Creating this podcast, subscribe
as a patron at technology. 

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No, dot f /, Patron. 
My guess what? 

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Today's episode is rotten are 
Inga rotten is a leadership 

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developer and one of the causes 
of the professional Asia leader,

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and if you still remember in the
previous episode 98, I had a 

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conversation with Kurt Bittner. 
Also, one of the causes to 

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discuss some parts of the book. 
This is a kind of continuation 

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from that previous episode. 
And in this episode Ron and I 

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discussed on how one can become 
a professional HR leader Ron 

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started by sharing his view of 
why agile. 

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Ian's usually fail and he gave 
advice on how companies should 

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adopt agile in a more effective 
way rather than describe the 

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characteristics of a 
professional Asia leader, 

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including how to apply 
situational leadership by 

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understanding the four different
leadership styles which are 

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combative compliant competitive 
and catalytic leadership run 

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also explained how leaders can 
build High performing teams by 

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being aware of the two. 
Domains. 

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The teams are operating in which
are the Well and invisible 

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domains. 
And by also understanding the 

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interconnection between 
organization structure and its 

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culture towards the end run 
shared his Utopia view of how 

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organizations would look like if
they already become fully agile.

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And he also shared some patterns
for effective leadership. 

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I really enjoyed my conversation
with Ron and I especially like 

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our discussion about how to 
build High performing team that 

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is truly self managing and 
self-organizing and the 

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importance of being aware of The
invisible domains within the 

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organization and take action on 
how to resolve some of those 

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which hinders high performance 
and Agility. 

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And if you also find this 
episode useful, please help 

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share it with your friends and 
colleagues. 

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00:03:00,100 --> 00:03:02,900
So they can also benefit from 
listening to this episode. 

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Don't forget to give this 
podcast a five-star rating and 

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review on a podcast and Spotify 
because it will help me a lot to

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make this podcast, easily 
discovered by other listeners. 

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Before we continue to the 
conversation with run. 

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Let's hear some words from our 
sponsors. 

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Today's episode is proudly 
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latest tech Trends. 
Hello everyone. 

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Welcome back to the new episode 
of the technology on our podcast

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today. 
I have someone with me, I guess 

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who is a leadership developer 
sounds Strange right? 

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What is leadership? 
Developer is actually one of the

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co-author of a book title 
professional, Asia leader. 

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Actually, I have a previous 
guests before could but not in 

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episode 98. 
Who is also one of the 

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co-authors today I'm going to 
talk with Ron specifically on 

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the continuation on how we can 
become a better leader, in the 

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sense of Asia world, how to 
become a professional Asia 

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leader. 
So, we'll be covering topic that

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we haven't had a chance to 
discuss with Kurt before so run 

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really looking forward for this.
This episode looking forward to 

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learn from you as well, thank 
you for having me. 

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So, first of all, I would like 
to start always with my guests 

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to share, maybe your career 
highlights turning points, maybe

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that you can share with the 
listeners here, so that we all 

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can learn from your journey. 
There are also basically what it

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comes down to. 
I started working in my 

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professional career around 2000 
when I became a software 

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engineer back in the days, 
working for Phillips, when I've 

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been working as a software 
engineer for merely like six 

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years, But I always knew that 
only that wouldn't be the job 

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that I would end up in because I
was always more like a people 

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person that some point in 2006. 
I think it was, I became a scrum

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master, I heard about scrum, and
we were working in a research 

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environment and good experiment.
A lot with scrum and back in the

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days. 
Nobody knew about scrum yet. 

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So it was like applying it in 
the basement of the building 

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that we're sitting. 
And people were asking all about

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that, sticky notes on the wall 
and stuff like that, like, what 

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is this stuff you're doing over 
there? 

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So that's basically 2006. 
I've been a scrum master. 

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Sir, for about eight years until
like 2014? 

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I think it is. 
And well, the good news is that 

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I had a team that actually was 
doing quite well. 

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So they were maturing and been 
great things and then at some 

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point, other team start asking 
you what are you doing? 

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And before you know it you're 
coaching like more than one team

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and helping the organization in 
advance as well. 

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Basically what I found there, 
there was this overarching topic

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that I always ended up doing 
which words like helping HR and 

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leaders to put up an 
environment. 

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We're self-organization could 
happen. 

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That's basically how I also in 
the end got the think about 

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what's my role will leadership 
developer? 

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What that means is that we're 
helping organizations to create 

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an environment where teams can 
self-organize. 

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And that's basically what it 
comes down to around 2014. 

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After being a scrum has for 
eight years. 

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I decided to take this to the 
next level and help other 

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organizations to do this as 
well. 

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So became self-employed started,
working for consultancy firm, at

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some point, as well. 
And actually, ever since I have 

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been here, Helping organizations
to put their leadership in place

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around the scrum teams. 
I think it was also 2014 when I 

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joined stranded org back then 
teaching the professional scrum,

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Master training later. 
Also started teaching the PCO I 

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think around 2017 2018. 
When I started thinking about, 

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developing the professional 
agile, Lucia place together with

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scrum the door. 
I think the turning point is the

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collaboration with scrum the 
dorg where I really started 

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thinking about professional 
scrum, how to apply that. 

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And what it means to actually, 
deploy leadership around the 

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scrum team over there. 
And I think that's basically, if

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I look now at what I do, we help
organizations, we have two 

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companies, one trading company 
but also one consultancy firm. 

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Basically what we're aimed at is
to create organizations for 

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people after work. 
Will help them put self 

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organization in place but also 
develop the leadership around 

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the teams and that's basically 
what we're currently doing. 

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Thanks for sharing your story. 
I can see why you mentioned 

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yourself as a leadership coach, 
who have been doing this for 

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quite some time, probably around
more than 20 years. 

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I guess you're right. 
You mentioned that you also part

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of screamed or cried or you have
been practicing scrum all along 

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as well. 
So these days this term is not 

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new, it's been a while. 
Yeah, but still companies are 

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still trying to do a gel 
Transformations within their 

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organizations especially for 
those companies who are probably

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a bit lagging behind from 
traditional world. 

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So in your view in your 
professional career and maybe 

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Consulting, do you see any kind 
of reasons why a gel 

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Transformations sometimes fail 
and people start to become The 

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girl about a job these days 
because I think people start to 

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become skeptical if they apply 
something, but it doesn't really

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work fully. 
So maybe you can explain here 

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why some major Transformations 
actually failed? 

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First kind of interesting 
because in the beginning days of

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me implementing scrum, you could
really see that it was only 

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applied within the it 
departments at software teams, 

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and we were quite successful 
back then in applying that, and 

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at some point organization 
started seeing the benefits of 

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that and wanting to scale, Add 
up to the organizational level 

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and I think basically, that's 
what we are currently in. 

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I think it was like 10 years 
ago, when organization started 

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shifting, which you currently 
see, is that a lot of large 

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corporates tried to implement 
agile at the organizational 

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level, but I think the way they 
do it is very transactional. 

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So meaning, they are focusing a 
lot on structure processes and 

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tradition. 
You tools, new roles, scaling 

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Frameworks, all that kind of 
stuff, but what they fail to 

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really change is there. 
Sure. 

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I've been following this survey 
by I think it was version one 

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who started with him. 
Now it's company called digital 

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a I record the state of agile 
and which is see in that survey 

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or as well as I did in the last 
eight years. 

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More and more companies have 
started adopting agile but for 

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some reason they're T matured 
are capability of 

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self-organizing doesn't go up. 
This is also. 

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What the survey reveals is that 
people see that practices are 

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being applied, but they see that
their organization is not able 

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to adopt a culture that looks 
like Like the agile, Manifesto, 

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everything that's been said in 
you had a Manifesto individuals 

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and interactions over processes 
and tools and all that kind of 

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stuff. 
So it is a shift in culture. 

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When you start working a job. 
I think if the organization 

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doesn't have a burning platform 
to actually change their 

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culture, agile implementations 
are ads, all transformations 

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will come and get stuck which I 
call the glass ceiling. 

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If there's five levels of 
maturity I think they kind of 

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get stuck at level 2 level 3 in 
their maturity. 

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I think that's basically what 
we're seeing still nowadays and 

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It hasn't changed a lot over the
last few years. 

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So you mentioned something that 
intrigued me or you mentioned 

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like many companies try to do it
in the transactional way. 

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00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:29,200
Transactional means like they 
for certain process tools, maybe

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the scaling framework and all 
these things. 

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00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,300
But actually what you're saying 
is the underlying important 

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thing is that you the culture 
then I can see many a Giles the 

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Vacations or maybe professionals
who also just preach, okay, here

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are set of practices that we 
need to do. 

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00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,700
These are the roles that we need
to have in the team. 

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00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,900
What would You change 
differently knowing about this 

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00:10:48,900 --> 00:10:52,700
situation, how can we become 
more focused starting from the 

209
00:10:52,700 --> 00:10:54,500
culture? 
What kind of things that may be 

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leaders need to do, not to start
prioritizing from there rather 

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than the transactional part 
here. 

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00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,500
I think it starts with 
realization that something 

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really needs to change. 
There's many reasons, why 

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00:11:06,300 --> 00:11:08,500
organizations, nowadays start, 
adopting agile. 

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00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:11,500
I'm think a lot of the reasons 
are because everybody's doing it

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00:11:11,500 --> 00:11:14,800
or because the management team 
wants to change or to save cost,

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00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,700
which is in my opinion that 
Reason to start doing it. 

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00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,300
I mean, it's going to cost you 
in the beginning because 

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changing culture, a shift 
towards a more agile team based 

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00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,700
mindset is hard change, and I 
think many organizations that 

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have been around there for maybe
100 years, they aren't built on 

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00:11:31,800 --> 00:11:35,500
mechanisms that are based on 
self-organizing teams. 

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00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:40,300
They're based on this like hero,
executive leader, that makes all

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00:11:40,300 --> 00:11:43,400
the decisions and then the 
team's they Implement they 

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00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,400
follow and they do not lead 
actually. 

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00:11:45,900 --> 00:11:48,600
And I think Think what you 
should start with as a leader, 

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where you really want to reap 
the benefits of agile in your 

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00:11:51,300 --> 00:11:53,700
organization. 
It starts with a me to change. 

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If you have a large corporate 
organization with many people 

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00:11:56,400 --> 00:12:00,200
working there, they're gonna go 
along maybe for like a few month

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or maybe a year but then they 
will fall back into Old Behavior

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because there is no real need to
change. 

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So, I think lead us need to 
connect the reasons for becoming

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really agile. 
If they really want a jaw limit,

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if they want to reap the 
benefits of that, connect that 

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to the problems that they're 
having, and People understand 

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how agile actually helps you to 
solve these problems. 

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And basically it comes down to a
switching culture where leaders 

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are capable of delegating more 
and more responsibilities 

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towards the teams, but goal of 
competing faster results, right?

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Wear jeans can make faster 
decisions without the 

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bureaucracy that we see in many 
of these traditional corporates.

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And I think that's basically 
where it starts to connect. 

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The reason for the change with 
understanding what it means to 

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change a culture, Yeah, speaking
about culture, I'm also a leader

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myself sometimes. 
It's really tricky where to 

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start. 
We know, we understand we need 

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to change, we can see it. 
So called The Burning platform, 

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you mentioned the pain points 
that people are doing. 

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But culture is something that is
not easy and straightforward to 

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change. 
It needs like an organic effort 

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by everyone, but they need to 
understand the why. 

253
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And then they need to understand
the need to change and things 

254
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like that. 
So what do you think is the best

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place to start changing? 
This culture is it something 

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like you create a town hall 
meeting? 

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Telling everyone, or is this a 
set of dogs or is there any 

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better way to do that? 
Yeah, that's a very good 

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question, actually. 
Let me first start by answering 

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the question with the worst 
place to start with the change 

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and that is everywhere in your 
organization because I see like 

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large scale. 
Agile Transformations, like 

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whole company is subject to the 
change from my experience in the

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last at least 12 years with 
agile Transformations, is I 

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would say start at that location
in your organization. 

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Most complexity resides because 
that's where the biggest 

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benefits can occur. 
If you look at scum, for 

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example, scrum was designed to 
solve complex problems. 

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It wasn't designed in simple 
problems, or maybe complicated 

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problems, because we've been 
actually capable of solving 

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these problems are right for 
many years before scrum was 

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designed to solve complex 
problems. 

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And the complex base. 
That's what we typically do when

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we start working with 
organizations. 

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For example, just very recently.
Last week, we started a new 

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change in an organization. 
We Actually explicitly, picked 

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the one project that is in the 
most complex domain inside the 

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organization. 
They have so many challenges 

279
00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:23,500
like the entire Industries, 
changing all the time, and the 

280
00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:26,100
organization cannot keep up with
the change anymore and I think 

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that's basically the pockets of 
Excellence within your 

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00:14:28,800 --> 00:14:30,800
organization or agile can 
become. 

283
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,800
Very successful, is there where 
the most complexity is because 

284
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well, the Frameworks that we've 
been using are designed to solve

285
00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:38,600
complexity. 
And I think that's basically 

286
00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:40,600
where you should start. 
Well, it sounds a little 

287
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,200
counterintuitive Rod because 
I've seen many Team start words 

288
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,200
easiest but you don't prove that
you're actually making a big 

289
00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:50,900
difference by doing that. 
So you mentioned about complex 

290
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not complicated. 
Are you referring to kidnap in 

291
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,100
model? 
So maybe for people who are not 

292
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:57,500
familiar yet. 
How do you differentiate complex

293
00:14:57,500 --> 00:14:59,500
versus complex? 
Yeah, that's a good question. 

294
00:14:59,500 --> 00:15:02,700
Do reference to the Keynesian 
Model A Lot attending use that a

295
00:15:02,700 --> 00:15:04,500
lot as well. 
When I explain what complexity 

296
00:15:04,500 --> 00:15:06,600
is. 
Basically the most simple way to

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00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,700
explain. 
What complexity means is that 

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when everything is in flux, so 
requirements are in flux. 

299
00:15:13,100 --> 00:15:16,000
Like I always tell my new 
clients, customers think they 

300
00:15:16,000 --> 00:15:18,500
know what they want until they 
see what they get and then they 

301
00:15:18,500 --> 00:15:20,000
want something completely 
different. 

302
00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:21,900
Since technology is changing 
faster. 

303
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:25,400
And faster nowadays, this 
phenomenon has increased 

304
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:27,400
enormously over the last 10 
years, I think. 

305
00:15:28,100 --> 00:15:31,100
And because of that phenomenon, 
we end up in a complex domain, 

306
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,000
like all requirements, keep 
changing, technology keeps 

307
00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:35,800
changing. 
And as a result of that, the 

308
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:38,800
knowledge that people need needs
to be updated faster, and 

309
00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:41,700
faster, and because of that 
Dynamic, I think we are in the 

310
00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,800
middle of a complex domain. 
We need solutions to solve those

311
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,200
problems in a complex domain. 
So that's basically what I mean 

312
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:49,300
with that. 
And also not to mention that the

313
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:52,400
competitors are changing a lot 
as well, the disruptor the 

314
00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:54,300
startups, right? 
So, I think this is also, one 

315
00:15:54,300 --> 00:15:57,700
thing why it becomes more 
complex, we mentioned about 

316
00:15:57,700 --> 00:16:00,900
this, that from the complex, 
maybe most complex projects in 

317
00:16:00,900 --> 00:16:04,000
the company, most competent 
months, but you need certain 

318
00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:06,200
kind of leader. 
I saw coming to your bread and 

319
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,300
butter just to develop 
professional Asia. 

320
00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,400
Leader, what are the most 
important pattern do you think 

321
00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,600
for an Asia leader? 
To be successful heading this 

322
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,400
transformation or running this 
agile practices. 

323
00:16:17,900 --> 00:16:19,600
Yeah that's a good question 
actually. 

324
00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,400
Well I think basically in this 
might feel a little 

325
00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,500
counterintuitive because most of
the leaders don't think about 

326
00:16:25,500 --> 00:16:28,400
this first understand which our 
current culture is. 

327
00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:32,300
I mean I've been working with so
many transformations in the past

328
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,800
where we started off with a, you
know, very idealistic way of 

329
00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,900
implementing scrum in the 
organization and then we bumped 

330
00:16:38,900 --> 00:16:42,100
into lot of cultural problems. 
So if you are not aware of the 

331
00:16:42,100 --> 00:16:43,900
current culture, Your 
organization. 

332
00:16:43,900 --> 00:16:46,400
If you can't measure That Make 
That explicit, there will be a 

333
00:16:46,408 --> 00:16:48,600
lot of surprises when you start 
to change things. 

334
00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,300
So I think the basic pattern is 
understand your culture 

335
00:16:52,700 --> 00:16:54,700
understand. 
Also, the type of leaders that 

336
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:59,100
you have currently deployed and 
employed try to predict if those

337
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:01,800
leaders are capable of making 
the shift towards, like, 

338
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,300
delegating more towards teams, 
because we are going to change 

339
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:08,099
the organization. 
We're going to replace the hero 

340
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:11,900
L kind of basis, by 
self-organizing teams that can 

341
00:17:11,900 --> 00:17:14,900
make decisions. 
We're leaders shift towards more

342
00:17:14,900 --> 00:17:17,099
supporting those teams to do the
job themselves. 

343
00:17:17,700 --> 00:17:19,599
One of the patterns, for 
example, that we've been using 

344
00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:23,300
in our leadership Clause is to 
maybe you heard about the book 

345
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,700
by Jim Collins good to Great 
where he talks about, getting 

346
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:28,200
the right, people on the bus 
first. 

347
00:17:28,900 --> 00:17:31,400
And I think basically what he 
means with that is what we have 

348
00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:33,300
seen as well. 
In our Transformations is that 

349
00:17:33,300 --> 00:17:36,000
if you start focusing on the 
leader said, should move the 

350
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,800
transformation forward. 
For example, the scrum Master 

351
00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:41,700
product owners, the Tepee is in 
the teams that need to help the 

352
00:17:41,700 --> 00:17:43,800
team move forward and grow. 
Mature and take more 

353
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,400
responsibility, but if he was 
manager, start to focus on these

354
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,800
people in the organization, you 
will see a shift in the 

355
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,300
leadership culture in your 
organization. 

356
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,700
And at the moment that those 
leaders inside the teams can 

357
00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,400
actually take more 
responsibility, of course you as

358
00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:00,600
a leader need to be prepared to 
let go. 

359
00:18:00,900 --> 00:18:03,300
And that's basically what we've 
seen a lot is that there's 

360
00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,900
always tension between teams 
wanting more responsibilities 

361
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,400
teams, being able to take more 
responsibility and once they are

362
00:18:10,800 --> 00:18:13,700
the ability of the leader to let
go of their Ability once that 

363
00:18:13,700 --> 00:18:15,500
happens. 
Now, basically the pattern we've

364
00:18:15,500 --> 00:18:19,000
been applying a lot since the 
last 12 years, so you mentioned 

365
00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:20,900
this thing. 
Key concept from good to Great, 

366
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:23,500
which is to get the right people
on the bus window company on 

367
00:18:23,500 --> 00:18:26,100
your team. 
Maybe tell us a more practical 

368
00:18:26,100 --> 00:18:28,300
advice. 
How do you assess these leaders?

369
00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:30,700
Whether they are the right 
people, what kind of characters 

370
00:18:30,700 --> 00:18:32,800
behaviors trades or things like 
that? 

371
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:34,100
Maybe. 
Yeah. 

372
00:18:34,100 --> 00:18:38,000
So maybe I'll use an example 
from my own experiences in the 

373
00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:40,700
very recent years, during the 
covid situation. 

374
00:18:40,700 --> 00:18:44,200
I started a new Simon there. 
I began in Manager for a company

375
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,800
that I work with well. 
The first thing I started 

376
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,200
looking at, of course, I was 
responsible for a 29 teams and 

377
00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:52,600
do we have the right leaders in 
the teams, in some of the 

378
00:18:52,608 --> 00:18:54,400
team's, the answer was 
definitely, yes. 

379
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:56,400
There were scrum Masters 
product, owners, who are really 

380
00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,500
Keen to fill in, they're all 
good, but obviously, there is 

381
00:18:59,500 --> 00:19:01,600
always like one or two teams 
that do not have the right 

382
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,300
leaders yet, so we started 
thinking about. 

383
00:19:04,300 --> 00:19:07,800
So if they don't have the right 
leaders, how could we help those

384
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:10,100
teams move forward? 
We started looking at our 

385
00:19:10,100 --> 00:19:12,200
recruitment process? 
For example, if you're 

386
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,700
recruiting a new product owner, 
what's the type of questions? 

387
00:19:14,700 --> 00:19:17,300
You kind of ask them. 
And a few of those things is 

388
00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:20,400
people need to be humble enough 
to understand that the team can 

389
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:24,200
take over at some point in time.
People need to also to be hungry

390
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,300
to make the next step and move 
forward. 

391
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,800
And they also need the emotional
intelligence to build up a team,

392
00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:31,900
right? 
And so we've been using these 

393
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:34,800
kind of questions in our 
recruitment process. 

394
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,200
So we were hiring a new product 
owner and I still remember, we 

395
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,100
off that new product, only the 
question, like, tell us about 

396
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:42,700
the failures you've had in the 
past. 

397
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,800
Of course, the reason why we ask
that question is we were just 

398
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:48,500
testing if he was humble enough 
to admit that also he makes 

399
00:19:48,500 --> 00:19:50,500
mistakes. 
And that's okay because people 

400
00:19:50,500 --> 00:19:53,900
learn from those mistakes but we
ended up in a conversation where

401
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:55,400
this product on are always 
mentioned. 

402
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:58,100
Like yeah, but I do this ride 
and have that certification. 

403
00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,000
So testing the humbleness was 
something that we're doing there

404
00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:03,300
and this is just one of the 
examples that we've been using 

405
00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,300
to see. 
Do we have the right people? 

406
00:20:05,700 --> 00:20:09,400
And that I think admitting that 
you also make mistakes and that 

407
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:11,100
you were actually learning from 
these mistakes. 

408
00:20:11,100 --> 00:20:12,800
As one of the biggest qualities 
you could. 

409
00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:15,500
Actually look for in a team and 
in a leadership team. 

410
00:20:16,100 --> 00:20:18,600
Yeah, I really love what you 
said humbleness, right? 

411
00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,000
So the admittance that you did 
some mistakes. 

412
00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:23,700
It may be catastrophic, it may 
be small, but at least the 

413
00:20:23,700 --> 00:20:25,800
humbleness to actually mention 
about that. 

414
00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,300
And the other thing I would add 
probably is about ownership 

415
00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:30,500
because you keep mentioning 
about self organizing team, 

416
00:20:30,500 --> 00:20:32,100
right? 
So that he doesn't need to be 

417
00:20:32,100 --> 00:20:34,700
able to also own the things that
they are leading. 

418
00:20:34,700 --> 00:20:37,000
So that if you don't always need
to go back to the leader. 

419
00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:39,600
The other important thing that 
you mentioned in the book for 

420
00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:41,900
the role of leaders is to 
actually make sure that the 

421
00:20:41,900 --> 00:20:44,300
teams have enough. 
Opportunities to learn the 

422
00:20:44,308 --> 00:20:47,000
skills to learn maybe anything 
that they need to perform their 

423
00:20:47,000 --> 00:20:48,900
job. 
Tell us the importance of this 

424
00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:51,300
learning. 
There are, I think that is one 

425
00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:54,600
of the most important mechanisms
that leaders can use at least 

426
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,600
new leaders can use to make sure
that new leaders arise in the 

427
00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,200
organization. 
What I have seen so many 

428
00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:03,900
organizations do is that they 
only sent their management teams

429
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:07,300
to leadership classes and to 
educate them or how to take on 

430
00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:10,100
more responsibility. 
But what I have seen, is that 

431
00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:12,200
leadership can be everywhere in 
the organization. 

432
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,000
So I think It basically in this 
is what we've been developing in

433
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,600
our consultancy and training 
company is we've been designing 

434
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:21,500
learning Journeys for the agile 
professionals. 

435
00:21:21,500 --> 00:21:24,000
So for example, we've been 
designing learning Journeys for 

436
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:26,600
scrum Masters, learning Journeys
for product, owners learning 

437
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,300
Journeys, from managers. 
So how do you teach yourself to 

438
00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:33,800
require skills that we need to 
actually lead instead of manage 

439
00:21:33,900 --> 00:21:36,600
for example, good coaching 
skills or facilitation 

440
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:40,000
techniques or how do you engage 
large groups to actually come up

441
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,800
with better solutions to stuff 
like liberating structure? 

442
00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,400
Or other facilitation techniques
that kind of stuff. 

443
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,600
And also, it's helping people 
understand what we actually mean

444
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:50,700
will culture and measuring the 
cultures. 

445
00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:53,500
So as part of these learning 
Journeys, we typically 

446
00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:57,300
developed, for example, a 
culture Workshop, where we help 

447
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,100
people speak the same language 
when we talk about culture and 

448
00:22:00,100 --> 00:22:02,000
actually measure the culture in 
your organization. 

449
00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:04,000
So we could do better 
predictions about that. 

450
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,300
And it's not only sending the 
managers to these classes but 

451
00:22:07,300 --> 00:22:10,000
it's sending all the leaders 
inside the teams also to these 

452
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:11,400
Clauses. 
So they can help their teams 

453
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:14,300
grow to a more higher. 
Our agile maturity level. 

454
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,300
It's all about learning Journal 
that think and offering that to 

455
00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:19,700
the people. 
Yeah, so when you mention about 

456
00:22:19,700 --> 00:22:21,800
Learning Journey is right, I 
think the does here. 

457
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:24,200
You should try to build some 
kind of learning Journeys for 

458
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,100
your people. 
I think it depends on the 

459
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:29,100
company's maturity. 
Maybe also the HR people process

460
00:22:29,100 --> 00:22:30,900
for some companies. 
Don't really have learning 

461
00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:33,100
Journeys. 
So I think it's also good. 

462
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:36,300
Reminder, for those leaders out 
there, please try to look at the

463
00:22:36,300 --> 00:22:39,100
kind of Journey that you have 
for people to learn and I think 

464
00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:41,700
I remember in my episode with 
Kurt he mentioned that 

465
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:44,000
leadership is not Just roll, 
right? 

466
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:46,800
It actually can be anyone's to 
assume the role gentler you 

467
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:50,000
mention here as well, right? 
So you should not just cater the

468
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,100
training for the actual leaders,
the one who has the titles, but 

469
00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:54,900
also for everyone for different 
roles. 

470
00:22:55,100 --> 00:22:57,800
So thanks for mentioning that 
another thing that you have in 

471
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:00,500
the book is actually, you kind 
of like categorize leadership 

472
00:23:00,500 --> 00:23:04,000
styles into four different 
things so I'm quite interested 

473
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:05,900
in this. 
So maybe you can brief us a 

474
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:08,900
little bit more about, what are 
these leadership styles? 

475
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,800
Yeah, so basically, our summary 
is there's like a more complex. 

476
00:23:12,900 --> 00:23:15,300
System behind this bad. 
What we've done in the book, we 

477
00:23:15,300 --> 00:23:18,300
kept this very sharp and 
concise, we defined for 

478
00:23:18,300 --> 00:23:20,000
leadership styles that we have 
there. 

479
00:23:20,300 --> 00:23:23,300
We have the calmative leadership
style, a, which is connected to 

480
00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:25,700
a culture that looks a little 
bit like an arena. 

481
00:23:25,700 --> 00:23:27,800
Her people fight all the time 
and have to fight for their 

482
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:30,300
survival. 
The calmative leadership style 

483
00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:33,200
is actually very needed in an 
environment where there's 

484
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,000
continuous fighting going on. 
So in an unsaved and hostile 

485
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,200
environment, we demand the 
leadership style of Courage 

486
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,000
power and domination. 
Basically, that is accommodate 

487
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:45,800
leadership style, And the second
style we mentioned, there is the

488
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:48,900
compliance style, which is 
typically useful in an 

489
00:23:48,900 --> 00:23:51,300
environment that can be 
summarized with something like 

490
00:23:51,300 --> 00:23:54,400
an institution, right? 
Large communities, like States 

491
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,900
corporate environments. 
They need rules processes and 

492
00:23:56,900 --> 00:24:00,400
leaders that are responsible 
respectable, but also stable, of

493
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,800
course, the need behind, this is
stability, keeping large 

494
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,000
communities work together, let 
them work together, keeping them

495
00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:08,500
safe. 
That's basically what the 

496
00:24:08,500 --> 00:24:10,400
compliant leadership style is 
all about. 

497
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:13,900
Then the next style that we 
typically see he developed is 

498
00:24:13,900 --> 00:24:17,100
the competitive style, which is 
really like a game or a 

499
00:24:17,108 --> 00:24:20,500
competition, which is describing
the environment competitive 

500
00:24:20,500 --> 00:24:23,200
environments have lots of 
opportunities and it also 

501
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,100
demands that leaders and start 
challenging people to make use 

502
00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:28,700
of these opportunities to start 
winning, using an evidence-based

503
00:24:28,700 --> 00:24:31,500
approach and keep analytical 
thinking at a high level in the 

504
00:24:31,500 --> 00:24:33,700
organization. 
And I think many of the 

505
00:24:33,700 --> 00:24:37,500
corporate environments that we 
currently encounter, do have a 

506
00:24:37,508 --> 00:24:40,800
very competitive environment, 
where the competitive leadership

507
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,200
styles, also pops up and of 
Since we already sent it, with 

508
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,400
calmative compliant competitive 
be needed. 

509
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,400
A four-term would see. 
So we call that catalytic, which

510
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:53,700
is the leadership style that we 
as agile organizations very 

511
00:24:53,700 --> 00:24:57,300
often need because we're 
shifting towards his individual 

512
00:24:57,300 --> 00:24:59,700
thinking that is typically 
residing in a competitive 

513
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:03,100
environment towards a more 
Community kind of way of dealing

514
00:25:03,100 --> 00:25:05,000
with things. 
So we want teams to come up with

515
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,800
better Solutions because the 
brains of multiple people are 

516
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,100
always smaller than one 
individual can come up with. 

517
00:25:10,500 --> 00:25:14,200
So this is typically what works 
well in a A complex environment.

518
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,200
The reason why I think agile has
become so attractive is because 

519
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,800
people start to understand that 
if you have a team of 

520
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,200
individuals suddenly work, we as
a team, there's more to gain 

521
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,900
from working as a team, a base 
combat. 

522
00:25:26,900 --> 00:25:30,500
So this catalytic leadership 
style that we described is 

523
00:25:30,500 --> 00:25:34,300
capable of relying on the wisdom
of many, that's what working 

524
00:25:34,300 --> 00:25:37,000
well in a complex environment 
because the many can come up 

525
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,000
with better solutions for 
complex problems. 

526
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,400
So, this is why we need this 
catalytic leadership style will 

527
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,000
lead us Open authentic and very 
supportive towards teams. 

528
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,100
So maybe if I can repeat again, 
combative compliant, competitive

529
00:25:51,100 --> 00:25:53,000
and catalytic. 
I see them as a, like a 

530
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,300
spectrum, right? 
It's like you start, maybe from 

531
00:25:55,300 --> 00:25:57,400
combat. 
If you have a very bad culture, 

532
00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:00,100
moving into catalytic, right? 
And maybe you're in a market 

533
00:26:00,100 --> 00:26:02,300
where you have to fight through 
and make some gain. 

534
00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:03,800
So yeah, that's typically where 
it starts. 

535
00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,500
So is this something that all 
leaders should be able to adapt?

536
00:26:07,500 --> 00:26:10,200
So they should change their 
leadership styles as and when 

537
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:14,200
the situation requires them to 
do so Well, I think there's 

538
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,200
certain situations that the mom 
a different leadership style. 

539
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:20,700
So situational leadership is 
important, so I can imagine that

540
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:24,600
if you are in a hostile 
environment using a catalytic 

541
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:27,300
leadership style doesn't work 
because well, people need to 

542
00:26:27,308 --> 00:26:29,900
fight their way through. 
So I would be the last person to

543
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:32,700
say that, every leader needs to 
adapt the catalytic leadership 

544
00:26:32,700 --> 00:26:37,200
style, but I think if you are 
residing in an environment where

545
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,500
there's enough wealth, where it 
is opportunities to grow and 

546
00:26:40,700 --> 00:26:43,000
where does a lot of complexity 
going on at a larger Of 

547
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,000
technical challenges. 
I think the catalytic leadership

548
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,600
style works better because it 
provides for that environment 

549
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,000
better Solutions. 
But again not every situation 

550
00:26:53,300 --> 00:26:56,300
demands tis catalytic leadership
style so we should be aware of 

551
00:26:56,300 --> 00:26:58,000
that. 
So I would be the last person to

552
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,300
say about everybody. 
Now should switch to a cattle 

553
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:02,100
and give shipped style right 
away. 

554
00:27:02,500 --> 00:27:05,600
I think you should look at what 
is my environment asked for 

555
00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:08,100
especially in those environments
where there's a lot of 

556
00:27:08,108 --> 00:27:10,200
complexity that the monster is 
cut a little bit. 

557
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,700
You should style to work more 
with community-based. 

558
00:27:13,100 --> 00:27:16,500
Team-based self-organizing 
team-based situations. 

559
00:27:17,300 --> 00:27:20,100
So you mentioned in catalytic 
you rely on the wisdom of the 

560
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,900
team's, right? 
So these days people refer to 

561
00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:25,800
the team such as like the high 
performing teams or 

562
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:28,800
self-organizing in. 
So now maybe do you have any 

563
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,900
kind of advice how we can build 
High performing teams all in the

564
00:27:31,900 --> 00:27:33,400
first place? 
What is actually a high 

565
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,300
performing team so maybe he can 
explain from their first. 

566
00:27:37,100 --> 00:27:40,000
It's kind of interesting because
in the beginning days of scrum, 

567
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,200
I remember dad the jessalyn 
started talking about High 

568
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:46,000
performing teams all the time, 
they need to continuously 

569
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,600
improve. 
But of course, at some point 

570
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,000
teams will reach this stable can
own way of dealing with 

571
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:53,500
complexity. 
So what we've been using for 

572
00:27:53,500 --> 00:27:56,600
measuring, if teams are really 
mature and high performing in 

573
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,800
this complex environment, a few 
patterns that you can see in 

574
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,900
those teams. 
First of all, they use very 

575
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:06,700
clearly defined explicit goals. 
Very explicit conversations 

576
00:28:06,700 --> 00:28:08,900
about how to reach these goals 
Soper gamble. 

577
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,600
I'd scream door, we have this 
evidence-based management stream

578
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,700
where we talked about out. 
How do you actually measure that

579
00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:16,300
you are? 
Accomplishing the goals at you? 

580
00:28:16,300 --> 00:28:19,100
So explicitly defined. 
So basically that's a very 

581
00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:22,700
important one explicit goals and
measuring towards those goals. 

582
00:28:23,300 --> 00:28:26,700
The other thing is being 
present, meaning that 

583
00:28:26,700 --> 00:28:29,000
understanding why people were 
together. 

584
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:30,700
Why are your team in the first 
place? 

585
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:33,400
Why did people show up at work 
and join the company. 

586
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:35,800
So what are people's values and 
what are the values of the 

587
00:28:35,808 --> 00:28:37,500
company? 
What's the reason for people to 

588
00:28:37,508 --> 00:28:41,100
come out of bed every morning? 
So understanding that will help.

589
00:28:41,100 --> 00:28:44,100
You understand better also how 
to Operating as a real team. 

590
00:28:44,500 --> 00:28:48,400
So that's the presence part, 
then the third thing ownership, 

591
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:51,000
meaning that. 
Yeah, you can Define your goals,

592
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,100
but, of course, if it's just a 
go lab, some slogan on the wall,

593
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:55,900
it becomes. 
Well, what we typically call 

594
00:28:55,900 --> 00:28:58,700
management porn? 
Meaning, it's just a slogan on 

595
00:28:58,700 --> 00:29:00,500
the wall, but there's no 
Behavior behind this. 

596
00:29:00,500 --> 00:29:03,300
So, what I would like to see you
that if you have defined the 

597
00:29:03,300 --> 00:29:06,000
goals, I would also like to see 
the behavior to support those 

598
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,200
goals. 
So do people really believed in 

599
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:09,600
the goals and are they chasing 
them? 

600
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,500
I think that's basically what it
comes down to and then the last 

601
00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:16,200
part Art is awareness more 
explicit conversations. 

602
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,500
Good communication. 
Deliberate conversations like 

603
00:29:19,500 --> 00:29:22,700
retrospectives, where we really 
are have the intention to 

604
00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,100
improve the way that we 
communicate with each other, but

605
00:29:25,100 --> 00:29:27,600
also with our stakeholders and 
with our clients and that kind 

606
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:28,800
of stuff. 
So, it's for things, 

607
00:29:28,900 --> 00:29:32,600
explicitness presence ownership 
and awareness. 

608
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:34,100
That's basically what it comes 
down to. 

609
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,500
I really love that term, just do
management for the, I haven't 

610
00:29:37,500 --> 00:29:40,400
heard about it before, but I can
see some of these management and

611
00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,000
Tibetans of this week, you just 
create a As you maybe create a 

612
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,700
few sessions about it, you put 
it as slogan, emails and all 

613
00:29:46,708 --> 00:29:48,300
that. 
But the behaviors actually do 

614
00:29:48,300 --> 00:29:51,600
not actually reflect the kind of
goals or values that you appear.

615
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,200
Exactly. 
The first thing I do when I 

616
00:29:54,208 --> 00:29:56,900
start working with a new client,
I look at their slogans and look

617
00:29:56,900 --> 00:29:59,400
at their messages that they're 
radiating to the outside world 

618
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:02,300
and then I look at the behavior 
inside the company and if 

619
00:30:02,300 --> 00:30:05,500
there's like a gap between that,
well, I know there's work to do.

620
00:30:06,300 --> 00:30:09,300
So in your book, apart from 
these four characteristics, you 

621
00:30:09,300 --> 00:30:12,200
also mention about two domains. 
That the teams are operating, 

622
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,000
which the visible and invisible 
domains. 

623
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,100
When I read that, I think it's 
really a good concept for people

624
00:30:18,100 --> 00:30:20,300
to think about whenever they 
want to build High performing 

625
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:22,000
teams. 
Maybe can explain a little bit. 

626
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,900
What do you mean by visible and 
invisible? 

627
00:30:23,900 --> 00:30:26,800
Domains. 
Yeah, so maybe it's best to 

628
00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,500
explain this with an analogy of 
an iceberg. 

629
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,100
If you have like a water level, 
where this iceberg is floating 

630
00:30:33,100 --> 00:30:36,700
in my the visible domain 
reflects, everything that's 

631
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,400
tangible that you can see that 
you can observe. 

632
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:42,100
So this basically come down to 
the categories that we mentioned

633
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:44,400
before. 
So, for example, explicitly 

634
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,900
defined goals here, the stuff 
that you put on your wall, the 

635
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:49,400
things that you radiate, that's 
something that is very visible 

636
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:50,800
and the way that you 
communicate. 

637
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,300
However, if you start looking at
ownership, for example on 

638
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:57,800
presence that's basically the 
stuff that's underneath. 

639
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,200
So one of our drivers. 
So that's the stuff under the 

640
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:02,400
water level. 
That's the biggest part of the 

641
00:31:02,400 --> 00:31:04,500
iceberg that you might not see, 
right? 

642
00:31:04,900 --> 00:31:07,500
We have this analogy of a boat, 
hitting the iceberg like the 

643
00:31:07,500 --> 00:31:09,900
Titanic. 
Well, the biggest mistake that 

644
00:31:09,900 --> 00:31:12,100
they made is that they didn't 
see what was going on 

645
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:14,500
underneath. 
With the water level, which 

646
00:31:14,500 --> 00:31:17,000
actually led to a big failure. 
And I think that's basically 

647
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,000
what happens in many 
organizations because they focus

648
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:22,900
so much on the processing and 
the structures and the roles in 

649
00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:26,300
the organization. 
If they do not understand how 

650
00:31:26,300 --> 00:31:28,700
that relates to the culture in 
their organization and they 

651
00:31:28,700 --> 00:31:31,100
can't make that explicit, 
they're going to end up in 

652
00:31:31,108 --> 00:31:34,400
trouble at some point in time 
because adopting agility means a

653
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,600
shift in your culture. 
I think you should make that 

654
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,900
invisible stuff, underneath the 
iceberg aware with people so I 

655
00:31:40,900 --> 00:31:42,700
think that's basically what our 
jobs as leader. 

656
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:44,600
Is to work with the invisible 
domain more. 

657
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:47,900
It's about psychological safety,
it's about dependability. 

658
00:31:47,900 --> 00:31:50,300
All I can just so I can see your
point. 

659
00:31:50,300 --> 00:31:53,500
He just tried to focus a lot on 
processes structure fixing all 

660
00:31:53,500 --> 00:31:56,800
this, but actually the 
underlying or do you call the 

661
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,200
ice? 
But he did Ice Buck the 

662
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,100
underlying things, that probably
is, not serviceable, rise, not 

663
00:32:01,100 --> 00:32:04,300
something that people can see in
concrete, I park and things like

664
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:06,800
psychological safety. 
The meaning, the impact that you

665
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:08,800
want to do, thanks for 
mentioning that. 

666
00:32:09,300 --> 00:32:11,400
So you mentioned about 
structure, right? 

667
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,100
And initially, when we We talk 
to you also mention about 

668
00:32:14,100 --> 00:32:16,800
scaling framework. 
Why is scaling framework doesn't

669
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,200
work in a jar. 
I thought anything can be scaled

670
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,800
by following a certain 
Frameworks and things like that.

671
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,700
So tell us more about the 
concept of this structure and 

672
00:32:24,700 --> 00:32:29,300
also the culture well just to 
start with bad, I mean, I 

673
00:32:29,300 --> 00:32:32,200
wouldn't say that structure 
isn't important, it is important

674
00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,000
but implementing a structure 
without understanding the 

675
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,800
culture leads to failure. 
That's what we've seen. 

676
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,300
So basically like a scaling 
framework and let's not mention 

677
00:32:41,300 --> 00:32:43,200
the Pink Elephant. 
Therefore, Bowl of many 

678
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:45,200
organizations are using safe, 
right? 

679
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,200
There's a lot of structure in. 
There are a lot of processes. 

680
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:52,200
If you do not understand how the
scale culture, you're going to 

681
00:32:52,208 --> 00:32:55,100
end up in trouble, because it is
a lot of structure in there to 

682
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:57,600
grab for our men to work with 
very recently. 

683
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,300
Maybe you heard about Jurgen 
uploads new framework, unfix? 

684
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:03,700
If you haven't heard about that,
I would really recommend you to 

685
00:33:03,700 --> 00:33:07,300
look that up what he is doing. 
He's actually saying, like, do 

686
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:11,500
not Implement a framework in 
your organization but Implement 

687
00:33:11,500 --> 00:33:14,400
patterns. 
Look at The needs for people and

688
00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:16,000
look at what patterns work for 
you. 

689
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:20,000
So what he has done, is created 
a library of patterns that many 

690
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,200
organizations use to scale 
agility in their organization. 

691
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,400
So basically, I think what you 
could do is to compare your 

692
00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,200
organization with some kind of 
spaceship, right conditions. 

693
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,800
Keep changing all the time, the 
world is changing faster and 

694
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:37,300
faster and I think leaders 
should be able to rebuild their 

695
00:33:37,300 --> 00:33:40,300
spaceship as they go through 
their environment. 

696
00:33:40,300 --> 00:33:44,000
Use the patterns that work but 
also Way the patterns that don't

697
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:46,500
work and I think what many 
organizations are currently 

698
00:33:46,500 --> 00:33:49,700
doing, is they're blindly 
implementing this blueprint of a

699
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:53,500
framework of scaling in their 
organization without the ability

700
00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:55,300
to break down the stuff that 
doesn't work. 

701
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:58,700
If you look at organizations and
look at separate value streams 

702
00:33:58,700 --> 00:34:01,900
within the organization, some 
value streams might need a very 

703
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:03,400
different structure than the 
other ones. 

704
00:34:03,900 --> 00:34:06,700
And I think many organizations 
are trying to do this one 

705
00:34:06,700 --> 00:34:09,300
approach for all their value 
streams, over all their people 

706
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:11,400
in their organization, which 
obviously doesn't work. 

707
00:34:11,900 --> 00:34:14,600
Also there Are you should look 
at the parts of your 

708
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:17,400
organization and the needs of 
those parts of the organization 

709
00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:20,400
and maybe put different 
structures in place there and 

710
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,400
also align with the organization
culture. 

711
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,400
What those value streams are 
doing? 

712
00:34:26,100 --> 00:34:29,300
Yeah, I think these days people 
tend to up for an easy solution.

713
00:34:29,300 --> 00:34:31,400
So to speak, write something 
that is already probably 

714
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,800
publicized, or maybe other 
people have tried, so they just 

715
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:38,000
apply the same things looking 
for the same results, which in 

716
00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,600
your case you mentioned that it 
doesn't always work that way. 

717
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:43,300
Sometimes we don't need to 
implement All the certain 

718
00:34:43,300 --> 00:34:45,300
practices structure and things 
like that. 

719
00:34:45,300 --> 00:34:48,100
But look for the patterns. 
So I'll make sure put that in 

720
00:34:48,100 --> 00:34:49,600
the show notes. 
I haven't heard about that 

721
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,400
before there is called unfixed. 
It's actually quite recent. 

722
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:54,400
You may be people know you're 
gonna upload from the management

723
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,900
for your little book that he 
wrote, but he started developing

724
00:34:56,900 --> 00:34:59,000
this unfixed framework September
last year. 

725
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,800
So it's quite fresh and recent. 
But I think there's a very 

726
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,000
interesting set of patterns that
organizations could use to 

727
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,300
actually unfixed are scaling the
implementation that they 

728
00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:10,100
currently have. 
So that's the reason why you 

729
00:35:10,100 --> 00:35:12,600
call this, I'm fixed. 
Maybe you can provide the links.

730
00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:14,400
Later when we finish this 
conversation. 

731
00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,400
Yeah. 
I like the panda. 

732
00:35:16,500 --> 00:35:19,600
It's like unfix it and fix your 
scaling agile practices. 

733
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:23,000
I guess it's never too late to 
look at your structure and see 

734
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,600
what works and what doesn't work
and the stuff that doesn't work.

735
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,400
Just cast it away and do 
something differently. 

736
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,600
Your organization doesn't have 
to be this. 

737
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,400
Large oil tanker that moves in 
One Direction. 

738
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,200
Maybe it's like a fleet of 
smaller boats that still need to

739
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:38,000
work together, but use patterns 
at work and Cast Away. 

740
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,300
The patents are don't work for 
you. 

741
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,300
Totally makes sense. 
So Ron you have Done this for 

742
00:35:43,300 --> 00:35:45,800
quite many years, right? 
So you have helped some 

743
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:48,600
organizations successfully 
transform in the end. 

744
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:51,600
My maybe haven't experienced it.
Fully what does an organization 

745
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:53,800
look like? 
If they are fully a job and all 

746
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,600
these things work. 
So, tell us what's the heaven 

747
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,900
here. 
The picture where people will 

748
00:35:58,900 --> 00:36:02,400
have, when they're fully a gel 
there are, will we have the risk

749
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,000
here of losing a lot of people 
because they don't completely 

750
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,600
recognize our organization 
anymore. 

751
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,300
But I think if we look at nature
how do large networks of people 

752
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:14,400
look like at work together? 
Her, do they have a leader in 

753
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,400
nature. 
So, if you look at those 

754
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,300
patterns in nature, that would 
compare with a cell structure, 

755
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,300
maybe you've heard about the 
book Reinventing organizations, 

756
00:36:22,300 --> 00:36:25,300
or written by Frederick Lulu? 
He Compares it like with, for 

757
00:36:25,300 --> 00:36:28,200
example, circles people think 
that there's no hierarchy 

758
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,500
anymore in a fully agile 
organization, which I think is a

759
00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:34,400
very silly idea because I think 
we still need hierarchy. 

760
00:36:34,700 --> 00:36:37,200
Otherwise, we will get an icky 
right if there would be no 

761
00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:38,600
leaders anymore. 
No managers. 

762
00:36:38,900 --> 00:36:41,800
So I definitely think that 
they're still years in an agile 

763
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,200
organization. 
My opinion that there would be 

764
00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:47,400
leaders everywhere. 
Some leaders would be more 

765
00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,400
acting at the team level and 
some leaders are acting at the 

766
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:53,100
organization level to keep the 
entire organization together. 

767
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,800
I think the biggest difference 
is where the decisions are being

768
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,300
made and I think the decisions 
are being made in an agile 

769
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:02,400
organization, which is maybe 
acting at the level 5 of 

770
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,700
maturity being the highest 
level, well teams make decisions

771
00:37:05,700 --> 00:37:07,600
on their own. 
They are self-organizing 

772
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,100
self-managing as scrambling 
calls it nowadays, they take the

773
00:37:11,100 --> 00:37:14,000
decisions and the leaders Is in 
the highest level over the 

774
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:16,700
organization, they take care of 
the stuff, for example, 

775
00:37:16,700 --> 00:37:20,000
infrastructure, that enables the
teams to paint those decisions 

776
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,700
themselves. 
Or for example, to provide the 

777
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:25,100
organization in the teams with 
those learning Journeys that we 

778
00:37:25,107 --> 00:37:27,900
talked about, so that those 
seams can actually become self 

779
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:30,100
organizing and continue to learn
about this. 

780
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:33,400
There's a few organizations, by 
the way, that already used this 

781
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,900
way of working very recently. 
There's also a book that I'm 

782
00:37:36,900 --> 00:37:39,700
currently reading a written by 
two guys in the Netherlands. 

783
00:37:39,700 --> 00:37:42,100
They called the corporate 
Rebels, the book is called 

784
00:37:42,100 --> 00:37:44,800
startup Factory where they 
describe higher. 

785
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:48,300
It's a Chinese company, they 
sell air conditioning systems 

786
00:37:48,300 --> 00:37:50,000
and Refrigeration stuff like 
that. 

787
00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:53,200
Actually this is interesting 
because this is an 80,000 people

788
00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:58,400
company with, like almost 4000 
self-organizing cells that acts 

789
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:00,400
independently. 
I maybe even competing with each

790
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,600
other, but they're still a 
company. 

791
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,700
So there's still hierarchy the 
sill structure in there and so 

792
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,700
there are more and more 
organizations experimenting with

793
00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:10,900
these ways of working. 
So, this is not kind of a 

794
00:38:10,908 --> 00:38:14,100
fictive thing that only Ron 
maybe things about, it's already

795
00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:17,600
out there and I think it's our 
job to help organizations see 

796
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,000
the possibilities of how these 
companies work. 

797
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,500
So when you mention higher is 
actually covered as well, in the

798
00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:26,700
previous episode in 114 with 
Matt K Parker. 

799
00:38:26,700 --> 00:38:28,800
So he wrote a book called 
radical Enterprise. 

800
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,700
So, higher is like, one of the 
examples where you can see this 

801
00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:34,800
kind of self-organizing teams. 
He even mention it's like micro 

802
00:38:34,800 --> 00:38:36,900
Enterprises within the company 
web technology. 

803
00:38:36,900 --> 00:38:39,300
Self-organizing maybe even 
competing with each other. 

804
00:38:39,300 --> 00:38:42,500
They're just given a goals and 
they figure it out together. 

805
00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:44,800
As a team, exactly. 
Another thing that you mentioned

806
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:47,600
in the book, The Real success 
probably is also that the change

807
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,900
is self-perpetuating, right? 
So it doesn't rely on certain 

808
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:53,300
leaders to be there. 
It doesn't rely on certain 

809
00:38:53,300 --> 00:38:55,600
things in place. 
So tell us how we can build 

810
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,400
something that is 
self-perpetuating. 

811
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,200
So I always love to mention 
about the Simon. 

812
00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,300
I used to work in a Consulting, 
I used to mention that the true 

813
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:06,400
success of a Consulting is after
you leave a project, the things 

814
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,600
can still continue or even 
getting better, right? 

815
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,700
So, this self-perpetuating is 
actually very difficult because 

816
00:39:11,700 --> 00:39:14,400
sometimes we agree. 
Rely on certain people, certain 

817
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:17,100
charismatic leader to tell us 
what's the right way of doing 

818
00:39:17,100 --> 00:39:18,700
things. 
So maybe from your journey. 

819
00:39:18,700 --> 00:39:21,800
Is there any tips for creating 
this guy returning? 

820
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:25,300
As you mentioned that because I 
think that's basically how we 

821
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:28,300
approach our consulting jobs 
with our clients. 

822
00:39:28,300 --> 00:39:31,700
So the first thing we start 
talking about with our clients 

823
00:39:31,700 --> 00:39:35,900
is, what are you going to do to 
make me Superfluous as fast as 

824
00:39:35,900 --> 00:39:38,500
possible as consultant. 
For example, hiring an agile 

825
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:41,900
coach in your organization. 
I think that is a dysfunction. 

826
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,000
The reason why I'm Saying that 
is that well, a job coaches. 

827
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:47,600
It's a good idea to get some 
external knowledge if you don't 

828
00:39:47,600 --> 00:39:49,400
have the knowledge yet on how to
become agile. 

829
00:39:49,700 --> 00:39:52,400
But I think what leaders and 
managers when they hire these 

830
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,300
people need to do is immediately
have a conversation on. 

831
00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:58,400
What are you going to do as 
consultant to make sure that we 

832
00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,400
adapt these capabilities so that
we can take over? 

833
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:05,400
So what I've been doing is I've 
been helping managers to start 

834
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,100
coaching people so that I don't 
have to coach them anymore. 

835
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,700
I've been helping scrum Masters 
for example, also to engage with

836
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:14,000
the transformation. 
So that they can become in 

837
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,400
control of the transformation 
rather than external coaches who

838
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,700
will run the transformation. 
So I think if you look at it 

839
00:40:20,700 --> 00:40:23,600
from that perspective, I think 
the leader is dead, should take 

840
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:26,400
over a transformation, should be
the managers in the 

841
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:28,000
organization. 
They should be the scrum asset. 

842
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:29,700
Should be the product owners 
question. 

843
00:40:29,700 --> 00:40:31,500
Of course, would be, do they 
have the skills? 

844
00:40:31,500 --> 00:40:34,300
And if they don't have the 
skills, how can external 

845
00:40:34,300 --> 00:40:36,500
Consultants hand over those 
skills? 

846
00:40:36,500 --> 00:40:38,800
As fast as possible? 
And I think organizations should

847
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,500
be very sharp and when they hire
an external consultant have 

848
00:40:42,700 --> 00:40:44,700
Conversation. 
What are you going to do as 

849
00:40:44,700 --> 00:40:47,200
external consultant to help 
house as company? 

850
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,300
Take over as fast as possible 
and become self refrigerating? 

851
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,400
I think that's basically what it
comes down to. 

852
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:55,400
So one of the common things that
I see when you hire external 

853
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,600
Consultants, you have a set of 
metrics, maybe these teams have 

854
00:40:58,700 --> 00:41:00,700
implemented. 
This age of framework or these 

855
00:41:00,700 --> 00:41:04,000
teams have completed their 
sprained or deliver projects the

856
00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:05,500
box. 
But actually you mentioned a 

857
00:41:05,508 --> 00:41:08,200
good points that we should 
probably think about upskilling.

858
00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:09,700
Right. 
Obscuring, the managers the 

859
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:12,500
leaders in the team's I think 
that probably is one of the 

860
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,100
Better metrics instead of 
looking at the implementation 

861
00:41:15,100 --> 00:41:18,100
level only does, that probably 
is one of the key factors how we

862
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:20,800
can serve perpetuate, this kind 
of a cultural changes. 

863
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,000
The answer may be a metric, 
like, how many leaders in your 

864
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:26,500
organization are capable of 
coaching people and I have their

865
00:41:26,500 --> 00:41:28,000
coaching degree or something 
like that. 

866
00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:30,800
That could be a very interesting
metric because that actually is 

867
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,500
an explicit way to see that. 
You don't need the external 

868
00:41:33,500 --> 00:41:36,900
Consultants anymore speaking 
about effective leadership. 

869
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:39,400
So in your book, you have some 
patterns for effective 

870
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:41,000
leadership. 
I think there are a number of 

871
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,400
them we don't need to cover all 
of them. 

872
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:45,400
Maybe if you can pick some of 
the favorites, what would you 

873
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,200
tell us some of the patterns for
effective leadership? 

874
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,500
That's an interesting question. 
So, let me start with the first 

875
00:41:51,500 --> 00:41:53,600
one. 
As a leader, I'm responsible for

876
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:56,800
helping individuals and teams to
grow and take responsibility. 

877
00:41:56,800 --> 00:41:58,600
We kind of talked about this 
already, right? 

878
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,600
How do you hand over 
responsibility as a leader to 

879
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,700
the teams and the individuals 
working in the team's, well, 

880
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,700
decisions need to be taken by 
those who do the word because 

881
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:09,500
that's where the most knowledge 
is right. 

882
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:13,400
Also, they might be closer to 
the actual more than you as a 

883
00:42:13,408 --> 00:42:17,100
manager might be. 
So I think that is why you need 

884
00:42:17,100 --> 00:42:20,700
Authority everywhere because 
every opportunity that one of 

885
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:23,300
the people in the teams are 
aware, that a team can actually 

886
00:42:23,300 --> 00:42:26,700
directly have a conversation 
with the customer enables you to

887
00:42:26,700 --> 00:42:30,000
make fast decisions. 
So my power in the organization 

888
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,500
is determined by my ability to 
enable others to take 

889
00:42:32,500 --> 00:42:36,300
responsibility and that's 
basically how power changes from

890
00:42:36,300 --> 00:42:39,500
a management perspective. 
In the past, it was like power 

891
00:42:39,500 --> 00:42:42,000
of making the decisions and 
being in control of the budgets 

892
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:45,300
and stuff like That but in the 
end, if you have self-organizing

893
00:42:45,300 --> 00:42:49,300
teams, your power as a leader is
more creating new leaders in the

894
00:42:49,300 --> 00:42:51,900
organization and that's 
basically a big shift. 

895
00:42:52,100 --> 00:42:54,600
So that's shifting 
responsibility towards teams. 

896
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,100
That's think of the second one. 
Talented teams and individual. 

897
00:42:58,100 --> 00:42:59,400
We talked about the learning 
Journeys. 

898
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,400
I think that's an important one.
So I need to provide the people 

899
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,800
with a goal and I think that's a
very important leadership role. 

900
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:07,300
So do people connect to that 
goal? 

901
00:43:07,300 --> 00:43:09,800
For example, we have the 
organizational goals, we have 

902
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,400
them product goals as we have 
defined in the scrum guide. 

903
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:14,100
So, for example, also the 
sprinkles. 

904
00:43:14,500 --> 00:43:17,200
But also, how does the 
organization goal connect to the

905
00:43:17,207 --> 00:43:19,000
product goal? 
How does a prodigal connect to 

906
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,200
the sprinkles? 
And how do those sprinkles? 

907
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,800
And maybe all the other goals, 
connect to people's individual 

908
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,000
goals? 
I think that's the job of the 

909
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:29,100
leader to help people connect 
their goals towards what the 

910
00:43:29,100 --> 00:43:30,800
organization has in terms of 
goals. 

911
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,900
And that is not easy. 
It requires a lot of focus and a

912
00:43:33,908 --> 00:43:35,700
lot of conversation with each 
other. 

913
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:40,000
The third one to choose a lost 
pattern that we discuss in the 

914
00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,300
book. 
It's the right for people to 

915
00:43:42,300 --> 00:43:44,200
vote. 
Cutters in creating the goal. 

916
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,900
What we've been used to is that 
normally, the executive leaders,

917
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:50,900
they create the goals, right? 
And then the gold drips down to 

918
00:43:50,900 --> 00:43:53,300
as a team. 
But how about engaging people to

919
00:43:53,300 --> 00:43:56,300
actually maybe be open that your
organization's goals might 

920
00:43:56,300 --> 00:43:58,100
change. 
So what if the people in your 

921
00:43:58,100 --> 00:44:01,500
organization can see new 
opportunities and therefore the 

922
00:44:01,500 --> 00:44:03,900
goal shifts? 
Because of the input, you get 

923
00:44:03,900 --> 00:44:07,000
from your appellees and not only
like a few individuals that had 

924
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,600
got that executive level in the 
organization and of course what 

925
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,400
you need there is having a safe 
environment. 

926
00:44:12,500 --> 00:44:15,400
A moment where people can 
discuss this and make mistakes 

927
00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:17,900
and learn from that and adapt to
that situation as well. 

928
00:44:18,100 --> 00:44:21,300
I think those are patterns where
leaders can really become 

929
00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:24,200
effective at what they do, but 
it requires a real shift in 

930
00:44:24,200 --> 00:44:25,800
thinking from a traditional 
managers. 

931
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:28,100
Thanks for mentioning some of 
this pattern. 

932
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:30,300
So you start with shifting 
responsibility, right? 

933
00:44:30,300 --> 00:44:33,200
So for leaders, not to always 
make the decisions by yourself 

934
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,900
at actually to start shifting 
growing the team, letting them 

935
00:44:35,900 --> 00:44:38,900
decide and be responsible of 
their own challenges and 

936
00:44:38,900 --> 00:44:40,800
problems. 
And then, that you'll mention a 

937
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,000
lot of times about goals for I 
think the goals connecting them 

938
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,600
from the top from organization 
to individuals and also like 

939
00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,700
creating the safe environment. 
Sometimes I see that managers 

940
00:44:50,700 --> 00:44:53,900
leaders individuals. 
They are all tied down to just 

941
00:44:53,900 --> 00:44:55,800
doing the tasks during the 
features. 

942
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:59,300
So they have a goal normally is 
from the top but then it gets 

943
00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:01,900
translated to task. 
They don't even have the time to

944
00:45:01,900 --> 00:45:04,700
actually think of other. 
Maybe means to implement the 

945
00:45:04,707 --> 00:45:07,500
goal, right? 
Only what do you think a company

946
00:45:07,500 --> 00:45:11,400
or organizations you do so that 
they can invite people to 

947
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,000
actually start thinking about? 
About may be different ways of 

948
00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:16,500
solving a certain problem or 
different ways of implementing 

949
00:45:16,500 --> 00:45:18,600
the goals. 
Because sometimes people are 

950
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:22,000
just broke down into tasks and 
firefighting sometimes. 

951
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:23,700
So they don't necessarily have 
this time. 

952
00:45:24,300 --> 00:45:26,000
Yeah, that's an interesting 
question, actually. 

953
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,400
So, let me first start with why 
this is so important. 

954
00:45:29,700 --> 00:45:31,700
We talk about. 
Self-organization all the time. 

955
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:34,500
The reason why we want 
self-organization is, we need 

956
00:45:34,500 --> 00:45:36,800
faster decision making. 
That's basically what it comes 

957
00:45:36,800 --> 00:45:38,500
down to. 
However, I think 

958
00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:40,800
self-organization can become 
quite dangerous. 

959
00:45:40,900 --> 00:45:44,400
If the organization doesn't have
go Because in what direction, 

960
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,200
have people going to run when 
they don't have the goals ride. 

961
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,600
So I think that is why it is so 
important from a leadership 

962
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:52,700
perspective that there needs to 
be a lot of clarity around the 

963
00:45:52,707 --> 00:45:55,100
goals of the company. 
That's why we need to do this 

964
00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:56,900
together. 
To answer your question. 

965
00:45:56,900 --> 00:46:00,900
I think what is needed for that 
is intrinsic motivation, people 

966
00:46:00,900 --> 00:46:03,500
feeling intrinsically motivated 
and that's why they need to 

967
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:06,300
connect their personal goals to 
the organizational goal, because

968
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:08,300
if they don't believe in the 
goals that the organization has 

969
00:46:08,300 --> 00:46:10,300
said, you're going to get 
resistant. 

970
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:14,300
And I think that is the Reason 
why it's so important to dive 

971
00:46:14,300 --> 00:46:19,000
under the Ice Berg and be good 
at the invisible domain, because

972
00:46:19,000 --> 00:46:21,700
in the invisible domain, that's 
where the magic happens. 

973
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:23,800
That's where intrinsic 
motivation starts to happen. 

974
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,600
And that's where people start, 
connecting to the bigger picture

975
00:46:26,900 --> 00:46:29,900
if you have that in place. 
Well, I think that's the best 

976
00:46:29,900 --> 00:46:34,300
starting point to start working 
on self-organizing teams, but in

977
00:46:34,300 --> 00:46:36,900
the end, the only reason why 
we're doing it is faster 

978
00:46:36,900 --> 00:46:39,600
decision making in this complex 
domain, and I think that's how 

979
00:46:39,600 --> 00:46:42,200
it's connecting to everything we
talked about in the last hour. 

980
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:45,700
I still remember, Kurt mentioned
this thing called decision, 

981
00:46:45,700 --> 00:46:48,400
latency, right? 
So one of the true measure of a 

982
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,900
self-organizing Iman Angel team 
is actually how much latency you

983
00:46:51,900 --> 00:46:54,700
have to make a decision. 
So thanks for reminding us again

984
00:46:54,700 --> 00:46:58,000
about this speed, make decision 
and I think you touch something 

985
00:46:58,000 --> 00:47:00,000
very important intrinsic 
motivation. 

986
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,500
So I believe in many companies, 
not all people will have this 

987
00:47:03,500 --> 00:47:06,000
intrinsic motivation that is 
connected to the company. 

988
00:47:06,400 --> 00:47:08,100
But yeah. 
How can we facilitate that? 

989
00:47:08,100 --> 00:47:09,500
I think is the most important 
thing, right? 

990
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:12,500
Maybe having psychological 
safety, explaining the why Why 

991
00:47:12,508 --> 00:47:15,100
we do certain things in the 
company or kind of customer 

992
00:47:15,100 --> 00:47:17,800
problems that we are solving. 
I think, let's not forget to 

993
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,300
implement that to all the people
inside the company as well, so 

994
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:23,300
that they have intrinsic 
motivation to be self organized 

995
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:25,200
run. 
It has been a pleasure talking 

996
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:27,300
to you. 
So as we are driving towards the

997
00:47:27,300 --> 00:47:30,700
end of our conversation, I have 
one last question that I always 

998
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:33,900
love to ask my guess, which is 
to share your version of tree 

999
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:37,100
technical leadership wisdom. 
So maybe if you just summarize 

1000
00:47:37,100 --> 00:47:40,000
professional Asia leadership. 
Maybe this can become your three

1001
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:41,600
technical leadership, wisdom as 
well. 

1002
00:47:42,100 --> 00:47:45,800
And so Missing one so. 
Well, I think I can't avoid this

1003
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,100
one. 
So the first one is don't start 

1004
00:47:49,100 --> 00:47:51,300
any change. 
Before you understand culture in

1005
00:47:51,300 --> 00:47:53,800
your organization because you're
going to end up in trouble if 

1006
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:55,200
you don't. 
So that's the first thing. 

1007
00:47:55,700 --> 00:48:00,300
The second one is the way to 
change the culture is actually 

1008
00:48:00,300 --> 00:48:02,500
through structure. 
So don't forget about this 

1009
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:05,300
fracture, it seems like we were 
against structure and processes,

1010
00:48:05,300 --> 00:48:08,500
know you need that, but the 
start with culture first and 

1011
00:48:08,500 --> 00:48:11,000
then the last one, I think, 
well, I've been in leadership 

1012
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,600
positions myself and It is not 
easy to let go of stuff, 

1013
00:48:14,700 --> 00:48:17,800
especially if it's your child, 
your baby ride, if you created 

1014
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,200
it. 
So I think we as Leaders need to

1015
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:24,300
learn ourselves how to let go 
and how to delegate decisions 

1016
00:48:24,300 --> 00:48:26,700
and feel comfortable. 
Let me rephrase it like that. 

1017
00:48:27,100 --> 00:48:29,900
Every decision that you make is 
a missed opportunity for 

1018
00:48:29,900 --> 00:48:31,400
somebody else to take the 
decision. 

1019
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,600
And I think that's basically 
what might help you let go more 

1020
00:48:34,700 --> 00:48:36,000
when you start deleting in this 
way. 

1021
00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,500
Well, I love that Mantra, right?
Every decision you make is a 

1022
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:42,100
missed opportunity for someone 
else to make that decision. 

1023
00:48:42,100 --> 00:48:44,200
So I love that. 
Haven't heard about that. 

1024
00:48:44,300 --> 00:48:46,700
So, yeah, I think as a leader 
myself, sometimes, it's really 

1025
00:48:46,700 --> 00:48:49,900
difficult to let go or maybe 
delegate because we have even if

1026
00:48:49,900 --> 00:48:52,500
certain ways of doing things, 
and when we see someone else not

1027
00:48:52,500 --> 00:48:54,900
doing the same thing, we feel a 
little bit uncomfortable. 

1028
00:48:54,900 --> 00:48:58,200
So I think again the Mantra 
every decision you make is a 

1029
00:48:58,207 --> 00:49:00,400
missed opportunity for someone 
else to make that decision. 

1030
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,400
I think it's a good reminder for
all of us leaders. 

1031
00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:05,600
So run if people want to 
continue the conversation if 

1032
00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:08,500
they are interested about your 
work, maybe it's their place for

1033
00:49:08,500 --> 00:49:12,700
them to find you on my yeah. 
So I think the best Asian to 

1034
00:49:12,700 --> 00:49:15,900
refer them, to is our company 
evolutionary leadership. 

1035
00:49:15,900 --> 00:49:20,200
So it's www, evolutionary 
leadership Dot and L or Dutch 

1036
00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:22,600
based company, but we place our 
blogs there. 

1037
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,900
And we're shifting our Focus, 
all towards that website, where 

1038
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:28,100
we share more of the leadership 
ideas that we're having. 

1039
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,300
And, of course, also to the 
website of our book, The 

1040
00:49:31,300 --> 00:49:34,200
Professional agile leader.com. 
So, if you're interested in 

1041
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:36,000
reading a book, that's where you
can find it. 

1042
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:39,100
And, of course, you could also 
find that on Amazon, on all the 

1043
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:41,000
normal Book, Sales challenges 
around the world. 

1044
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,500
So I would love to engage more. 
People on these subjects. 

1045
00:49:43,500 --> 00:49:46,800
So thank you for inviting me. 
Yeah I read the book as well so 

1046
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,400
I think it's really good. 
So for leaders out there who 

1047
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:52,000
want to really understand what 
does it take to become an Asia 

1048
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:53,600
leader. 
I think there's so many insights

1049
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:55,900
inside the book, so thanks again
for your time run. 

1050
00:49:55,900 --> 00:49:58,600
Looking for when we start seeing
more agile leaders in the world,

1051
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:04,400
cool, thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1052
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,800
episode and for staying, right 
until the end, if you're highly 

1053
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,600
enjoyed it, I would appreciate 
if you share it with your 

1054
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:13,500
friends and colleagues who you 
think would also benefit from 

1055
00:50:13,500 --> 00:50:16,100
listening to this episode. 
And if you are new to the 

1056
00:50:16,100 --> 00:50:19,100
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1057
00:50:19,100 --> 00:50:22,100
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot in order to 

1058
00:50:22,100 --> 00:50:25,400
grow this podcast better. 
You can also find the full show 

1059
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,700
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at tackling 

1060
00:50:28,700 --> 00:50:31,700
Journal, dot death website, 
including the full transcript. 

1061
00:50:31,800 --> 00:50:34,500
With interesting quotes and 
links to the resources 

1062
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:36,300
mentioned, from the 
conversation. 

1063
00:50:36,700 --> 00:50:39,700
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the shows mailing 

1064
00:50:39,700 --> 00:50:42,700
list on package. 
You know, dot f to get notified 

1065
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:45,800
for any future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1066
00:50:45,800 --> 00:50:47,200
technology. 
No episode. 

1067
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:49,100
And until then goodbye.