1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:05,680 The framework is called input, output, Outcome, and impact. 2 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:12,000 So it's an escalating way of where to spend my time as an 3 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:15,600 engineering leader and more importantly, where my 4 00:00:15,600 --> 00:00:17,720 engineering team is spending their time on. 5 00:00:17,760 --> 00:00:20,480 I would say most teams and most engineering leaders are well, 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:25,320 worst in the input and output. Where some teams struggle is the 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:28,760 outcome and impact aspects of it. 8 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,360 My belief is that as an engineering leader and the 9 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:35,600 engineering team should be very closely involved in what happens 10 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,960 with our product when it goes out to the market. 11 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,960 Dura metrics are great, but they're very internal facing. 12 00:00:42,440 --> 00:00:46,800 When you start to become an exec and interact with leaders from 13 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:50,800 other functional areas, think about what metrics they care 14 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,560 about. So if you have a good mission, 15 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,280 especially a good mission and and a clear mission, working 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,680 backwards from that and connecting how the work we're 17 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,920 doing to that mission is half the battle, in almost every case 18 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:06,640 it works, but it's not enough in my opinion. 19 00:01:19,990 --> 00:01:22,190 Hey guys, welcome back to another new episode of the 20 00:01:22,190 --> 00:01:24,990 Technical Podcast. Today I have with me Balki 21 00:01:24,990 --> 00:01:28,880 Koderapu, he's an experienced engineering leader and very 22 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:30,640 experienced in a start up as well. 23 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:33,520 So today we're going to talk about engineering leadership and 24 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:37,080 few tips from him, how he can make a good culture and those 25 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,160 kind of stuff so bulky. Welcome to the show. 26 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:40,920 Looking forward for our conversation. 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,840 Thank you, Andrew. Honored to be on this podcast. 28 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,360 We connected on LinkedIn a few years ago. 29 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,240 I've been an avid follower of Tech Lead Journal all this time 30 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,920 and it's a great honour to be here talking to you. 31 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:57,680 Bulky. I always love to ask my guests 32 00:01:57,680 --> 00:02:00,320 first to maybe tell us a story about yourself, maybe any 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,240 turning points from your career you think we all can learn from 34 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,560 you. Yes. 35 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:10,160 So several turning points in my life, but I'll share a couple 36 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,400 that are relevant to this audience. 37 00:02:13,080 --> 00:02:19,040 So the first one is I stayed in large companies for the 1st 10 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,280 years of my career. Towards the end of that 10 39 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:27,120 years, I was really gung ho on growing up the ladder, climbing 40 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:29,440 the ladder in the large corporate setting. 41 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,560 So I convinced my leadership team to pay for my MBA, 42 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,680 executive MBA degree, which they did. 43 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,440 So I went to a very good university, University of 44 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,240 Washington in Seattle, to do my MBA. 45 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:48,520 All was great until the last semester where we had this 46 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,600 capstone project in entrepreneurship. 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,520 It was a competition. I was like, Oh yeah, this is 48 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,320 this is something like a course that I enrolled into that and 49 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,160 the startup and entrepreneurial bug bit me. 50 00:03:02,440 --> 00:03:05,720 So in that competition, I was so involved. 51 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,840 I loved every second of writing the business plan, building a 52 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:14,320 company, building a product. Coming out of that MBA program. 53 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:16,960 I completely changed my direction. 54 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,960 I'm like, I'm not working for the large companies anymore. 55 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:25,520 I'm only going to build my own startup so the advice there or 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,080 turning point for me or anyone listening is don't make up your 57 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,320 mind going into something major in your life. 58 00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:37,600 Just be open to changes in in your mindset and what the 59 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,240 universe gives you. Another turning point is so Long 60 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:47,400 story short I did quit my large company and build a start up 61 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,920 with a friend. We ran it for a year and a half, 62 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:52,440 learned a lot, but life happened. 63 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:55,040 We had kids and things like that. 64 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:59,320 So we both decided to exit that startup and go back to the 65 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:03,840 corporate world. And I joined a very fast-paced 66 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:06,600 medium sized company as a manager. 67 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:11,720 So that was the first time I was a manager outside of my domain 68 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,960 expertise. So in my 10 years in the large 69 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,040 company, I knew everything about our product and people and 70 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:21,000 technologies. So I got carried away. 71 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:23,600 I thought like I could be successful anywhere in the 72 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,520 world, have so much experience. But I was very, very humbled 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,920 when I joined this company. First of all, this was a very 74 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:36,360 developer oriented product. Developers took great pride in 75 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,400 what they did. So when I joined, I was being a 76 00:04:39,400 --> 00:04:42,000 manager. I was like, yeah, setting up 77 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:45,280 their work, you know, rubbing shoulders with other marketing 78 00:04:45,280 --> 00:04:49,160 people and salespeople and forgot all about, I'm here to 79 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:53,320 serve my team, right? So I forgot that I have to build 80 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:58,280 my trust and respect. So I was very humbled in that 81 00:04:58,280 --> 00:05:01,560 experience. So again, another turning point 82 00:05:01,560 --> 00:05:08,040 for me is that when I join a company, a new team, how bonding 83 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:11,400 with my team is first and foremost the most important 84 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,880 thing. So I I did not last very long in 85 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,600 that company, Long story short, but it taught me a great lesson 86 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,640 in with joining a new team, how to be a humble and do it with 87 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:28,000 curiosity when when I joined a new company be learning, be 88 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,680 building relationships and things like that. 89 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,480 Thank you so much for sharing your story. 90 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:35,040 I think it's pretty interesting, right? 91 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:37,840 So I think I was in the same shoe like you, right? 92 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:42,080 Working in a corporate ladder, trying to climb up as fast as I 93 00:05:42,080 --> 00:05:44,040 can. But obviously, you know, the 94 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,960 startup kind of like NT's me. And you know, these days I have 95 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:50,440 more interest in joining startups rather than corporates. 96 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,960 So Balki, I know that you have been in the tech world and also 97 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:57,000 engineering world for quite some time. 98 00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,520 Today we're going to talk discuss topics about, you know, 99 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,040 engineering leadership and all that. 100 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:02,960 Maybe let's start with the first thing. 101 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,840 It's about leading and inspiring engineering teams. 102 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,840 You have something that I find really interesting, right? 103 00:06:08,840 --> 00:06:12,160 How to actually come up with the framework so that engineering 104 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,880 can create more impact rather than in some engineering teams 105 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,840 where they focus a lot on just input and output? 106 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,880 So tell us maybe a little bit of background, how do you come up 107 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:26,040 with this framework? Yes, this is not my framework 108 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,280 but unfortunately I don't know where I got it from. 109 00:06:30,280 --> 00:06:33,600 I heard about it on a podcast and then dug up. 110 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,720 The framework is called input, output, outcome and impact. 111 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:46,000 So it's an escalating way of where to spend my time as an 112 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,600 engineering leader and more importantly, where my 113 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,000 engineering team is spending their time on, right. 114 00:06:52,000 --> 00:06:57,400 So 5 seven years ago, input and output themselves were hard for 115 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,720 many teams. So people would struggle on how 116 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:05,200 to schedule their work and doing their releases on a cadence and 117 00:07:05,840 --> 00:07:08,720 predictable way. I believe that more more and 118 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,640 more teams now because they either they follow scrum teams 119 00:07:12,640 --> 00:07:17,240 or they have a good leader. Many teams are able to handle 120 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,560 input and output in my opinion. Right there are still teams that 121 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:22,480 don't do well with input and output. 122 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:26,520 I probably judge them, but I would say most teams and most 123 00:07:26,520 --> 00:07:29,480 engineer leaders are well worst in the input and output. 124 00:07:29,960 --> 00:07:35,800 Where some teams struggle is the outcome and impact aspects of 125 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:39,360 it. So for example, we build 126 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,200 features as fast as we can, but many teams are unable to connect 127 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:48,160 that with an outcome. Are the users actually using 128 00:07:48,160 --> 00:07:50,600 those features? Is someone paying for those 129 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:54,600 features right? So if you take a step back, we 130 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:58,280 tend to make that somebody else's responsibilities. 131 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,000 I'm building, I'm doing my best I can. 132 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,240 The most beautiful product, it scales infinitely. 133 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,880 So why are you not selling salesperson or product person? 134 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:12,160 Why are you not telling me what are the right features to build? 135 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,240 To be fair, it's their responsibility. 136 00:08:15,560 --> 00:08:19,040 However, my belief is that as an engineering leader and the 137 00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:23,240 engineering team should be very closely involved in what happens 138 00:08:23,240 --> 00:08:25,600 with our product when it goes out to the market. 139 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:30,200 So that's the outcome. And one example of outcome and 140 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:35,159 how to measure and embrace and make it our own is at the last 141 00:08:35,159 --> 00:08:38,400 company. What we did was at the start of 142 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:42,679 the demo, we did spring demos like most companies at the start 143 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,960 of the demo, actually, we looked at software like Pendo, which 144 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:54,200 does user analytics, usage analytics and evaluated how our 145 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,720 features were being utilized in the field. 146 00:08:57,200 --> 00:09:00,400 So if he built something in the last print or the Sprint before, 147 00:09:00,680 --> 00:09:04,840 you would actually look at the corresponding metrics in Pendo 148 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:08,440 and say, oh, we built this, but nobody's using this part. 149 00:09:08,680 --> 00:09:11,080 Is there a gap here? Or if he didn't market it 150 00:09:11,080 --> 00:09:15,160 properly, so on and so forth. So that to me was very 151 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:19,560 empowering to be able to for the engineering team to be part of 152 00:09:19,560 --> 00:09:22,360 that journey. So that's an example of outcome 153 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:26,080 impact is next level. So the current company I'm 154 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,920 helping is a truly mission driven. 155 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,480 Many companies say they're mission driven, but this one 156 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,600 truly is for the first time in my life. 157 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:39,240 So what we do is we help pregnant and postpartum moms 158 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:44,200 live a healthy and joyful experience through those 18 plus 159 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:46,480 months during their pregnancy and postpartum. 160 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,080 And we do that through technology, obviously. 161 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,840 So we help them connect to various fitness devices like a 162 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,640 heart rate monitor, a blood pressure monitor and a fetal 163 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,440 baby heart rate monitor. And based on the data that's 164 00:10:01,440 --> 00:10:05,800 coming in, we provide them guidance on, you know, maybe you 165 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:11,040 could walk a little bit more or your weight is a little bit 166 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,520 abnormal, etcetera. So we literally kind of save 167 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:16,880 lives. So there's at least 2 examples 168 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:22,560 where our software and our counselors, we're able to detect 169 00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:26,360 some early signs of trauma and we were able to save the baby's 170 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,960 life. So it, it's very mission driven. 171 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,040 But again, like it is very easy for an engineering team to be 172 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,200 disconnected for that mission. Like be obsessed about the 173 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,920 technology because we have so much data. 174 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,520 I could drool over that data all day and night long, but 175 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,760 reminding them why we are here is an important aspect for me, 176 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,760 right? So how are we helping them lead 177 00:10:50,760 --> 00:10:55,400 a healthy lifestyle and how can we do that with data to connect 178 00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:59,320 that mission, if not on a daily basis, on a weekly, on a 179 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:03,160 sprintly basis, Being able to do that, that impact is the most 180 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,240 powerful thing and what I can do in my engineering leadership 181 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,040 role. Thank you for outlining this 182 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:11,720 framework, right? So input output, outcome and 183 00:11:11,720 --> 00:11:14,080 impact, right? I think I would tend to agree 184 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:17,040 with you based on my experience as well looking at the different 185 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:19,000 engineering teams in the industry, right? 186 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,280 I think somehow especially as you get bigger, right, and maybe 187 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,280 in the small startup, everything is kind of like well connected. 188 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,720 You understand the mission, you understand the features you 189 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:29,760 build and the kind of outcome and impact. 190 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,520 But as a company organization grows larger, typically, right, 191 00:11:34,520 --> 00:11:37,840 you'll start seeing silo information not spreading 192 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,200 through end to end, right? And engineering mostly given 193 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,840 like, OK, here's what the things you need to build, right? 194 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,600 So instead of, you know, understanding what are the 195 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,440 outcomes that potentially could happen, they are just given, you 196 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,200 know, like a list of features and to produce output. 197 00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:55,640 So I think partly one responsibility for leaders is 198 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,720 actually making sure that this doesn't happen that often and 199 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:02,240 somehow engineers are able to understand the outcome. 200 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,600 Maybe in your experience, what are some of the practices or 201 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,040 habits outside of maybe like Pendo that you have seen that 202 00:12:09,040 --> 00:12:11,640 you have done before, right? What are some of the things that 203 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:14,560 engineering leaders are able to kind of like help so that 204 00:12:14,560 --> 00:12:16,560 engineers don't forget about this aspect? 205 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:21,280 Yeah, there's several things. So for the last three companies, 206 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:26,080 I always made sure that engineering team spends a good 207 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,960 amount of time with our support team, right? 208 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:34,480 So most often support team is the frontline for the pain and 209 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,400 the joys of our customers. And again, because of the layers 210 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:43,680 in between engineers tend to be, we tend to keep them separate. 211 00:12:43,680 --> 00:12:47,160 Like you don't, you can focus on your work rather than being 212 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:49,080 involved in the day-to-day grind. 213 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,040 But I think differently. I feel strongly that engineers 214 00:12:53,560 --> 00:12:57,920 should work side by side, at least a few hours a day or a few 215 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:02,400 days a month besides support team and be involved in their 216 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,760 journey. So there's one we do. 217 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:08,440 And at the current company, we actually have counselors and 218 00:13:08,440 --> 00:13:11,160 coaches on staff. So they are the ones that are 219 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:14,000 actually talking to the moms day in and day out. 220 00:13:14,480 --> 00:13:17,480 They have a very tough job. They use an internal software we 221 00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:20,280 built in order to communicate with these moms, right? 222 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,880 So they have to handle dozens of moms every day. 223 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:27,040 Moms go through ups and downs throughout the day. 224 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,160 So being able to stand by them and support them is a tough job. 225 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:35,640 So I've not done this yet, but my goal is for every engineer 226 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:39,720 that joins spends about a week with these navigators to learn 227 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,480 from their journey. All right, so they are so far 228 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,560 away from the technology, but we also build our software for 229 00:13:46,560 --> 00:13:48,440 them. So first and foremost, we build 230 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:50,280 it for the moms. So we're going through this 231 00:13:50,280 --> 00:13:54,240 journey and close behind that, we build it for the navigators 232 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,360 who are helping these moms. Those are two examples I can 233 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:02,000 think of. Oh, another favorite of mine is 234 00:14:02,160 --> 00:14:04,360 we introduced this two companies ago. 235 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:08,200 We do these demos, you know, almost every team does print 236 00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:12,440 demos, mostly internal facing maybe to the product partner. 237 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:17,440 But me and my boss introduced, we do demos for the entire 238 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:20,440 company. I was literally sweating when I 239 00:14:20,440 --> 00:14:22,600 heard that. Oh my God, in front of the whole 240 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,880 company it was it was a small company, but not too small. 241 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:30,160 We were about 80 people when we introduced that, 35 or so in 242 00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:32,200 engineering. The rest were outside of 243 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,040 engineering. Yeah, I mean, Long story short, 244 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:39,920 we take the highlights of the last month and we would do a 245 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,240 demo to the entire company once a month. 246 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:44,920 And I've always followed that practice. 247 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,800 I'll introduce that pretty soon in this company as well. 248 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:53,120 But it it's one of the best one hours of my month, every month, 249 00:14:53,120 --> 00:14:55,960 right. So being able to prepare, doing 250 00:14:55,960 --> 00:15:00,400 it with grace and humility to the rest of the company, believe 251 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:03,520 it or not, this was the most popular meeting for the entire. 252 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,200 This would be more popular than the CEO talking to the company, 253 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,120 right? As a technology company, 254 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:11,720 everyone in the company cares about our product. 255 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:15,800 Being able to showcase it in a humble manner is a very 256 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,720 delightful experience. So I've refined it over the 257 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,640 years, but partner with the product managers to see what 258 00:15:22,640 --> 00:15:25,800 makes sense, what to share, what not to share, etcetera. 259 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,000 But the big take away for me is that be open to surprise. 260 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,280 So many times we build something, we share it and get 261 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,920 punched in the face. This is not what we want, you 262 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:38,200 know. So being prepared for that 263 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:41,200 feedback is the key for me if you're doing it in your own 264 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,760 company. So these are some of the things 265 00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:47,200 bring the engineering team closer and closer to the front 266 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,560 lines. Be humble, be transparent with 267 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:52,240 what we're building and how we are building. 268 00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:55,240 Yeah. So I think one of the key 269 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:58,520 takeaways for me is always try to get closer to the front line, 270 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:01,400 like what you said, be it the users or be it the support team 271 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,200 and also being closer with the cross functional team, right? 272 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,720 For example, the product team or maybe the marketing team getting 273 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:09,840 the pulse from the externals, right? 274 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,840 Like how our product is being used, what kind of impact or 275 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:16,560 stories that other people got impacted by using our product. 276 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,720 I think that's always helpful. And I think I took interest in 277 00:16:20,720 --> 00:16:22,520 one particular word that you mentioned. 278 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,720 Engineers like to get focused time, you know, doing their 279 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,240 craft, doing their work. So they don't want to bother 280 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,320 with all these. Maybe some tips from you how for 281 00:16:31,320 --> 00:16:34,960 engineers not to just prioritize their focus time, deep work 282 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,920 focus time. Always we say that to other 283 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,000 counterparties, but always to have something in the back of 284 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,840 our mind to actually understand the outcome and the impact of 285 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:44,840 what we do. Yeah. 286 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,000 I mean, it's a fine balance, right? 287 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,480 So it's well known that when craftspeople like Engineer do 288 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:57,320 their best when they're focused. So no way I'm going to take away 289 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:01,760 that focus from them, but schedule this very important 290 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:05,200 outcome and impact focus time as well, right? 291 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,880 So one thing that has helped in the past, this was from almost 292 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:13,560 seven years ago when I was New Relic, we had a role called 293 00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:16,480 Support Hero. Instead of just escalating 294 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,960 everything to everyone and distracting people, we would 295 00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:26,200 have one person focused on bugs and helping external teams, and 296 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,080 we call them Support Hero. So they would be the person 297 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:35,760 fully dedicated to helping others outside of engineering 298 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:38,600 for the whole spread. It's a little bit exhausting, 299 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:42,000 but I feel it worked out well. So what they're doing is a 300 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,320 little bit of a sacrifice. So let me hold the Fort down 301 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,240 with these bugs and escalations while I'm letting you, the 302 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:52,800 remaining six or seven engineers, enjoy your focus 303 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,600 time. So that's the balance we found 304 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,240 that person would also be at times beyond the support 305 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,000 rotation, the on call rotation as well. 306 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,000 So we treat them with thick glass and respect for what 307 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:09,720 they're doing, but also know that you know you have to do 308 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:13,280 this once every four to six prints, depending on the size of 309 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,920 the team. Yep. 310 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,400 So I think for engineers, you're typically in a life product, 311 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,040 right. So you'll have support things, 312 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:23,960 the tickets right from users, be it from internal or external, 313 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,920 right? And yeah, on call or support 314 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:30,480 hero that you mentioned here is a typical practice that we adopt 315 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:33,800 in order for the engineers to actually understand what kind of 316 00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:37,120 issues that typically crop up and what kind of maybe impact. 317 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:40,520 Because when you listen to users problems, right, typically you 318 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:43,720 can empathize with their journey and the kind of impact that it 319 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:46,120 created for them. Thanks for highlighting that. 320 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,720 If engineers or engineering leaders know about the outcome 321 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,520 and the impact. Now, one question still exists 322 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,240 in typical startup company or tech company is that how do you 323 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:00,040 actually measure, you know the engineering productivity or the 324 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:04,480 outcome or output itself, right. So I think these days developer 325 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:06,720 experience, developer productivity are kind of like a 326 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:09,760 trendy topics. Maybe in your point of view as 327 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:13,160 well or your experience, maybe you can share what are some of 328 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:16,640 the engineering metrics that you typically use in order to gauge 329 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,000 the effectiveness of your engineering team? 330 00:19:20,120 --> 00:19:23,280 Yeah, Dora metrics. I highly respect Dora metrics. 331 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,400 You won't go wrong with Dora metrics. 332 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:30,680 Within Dora metrics, A-Team metric is our ability to deliver 333 00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,440 ship with confidence and joy, right? 334 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:38,240 So one of my mentors used the phrase drama free releases. 335 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:44,040 So when we prepare for a release and during the release and after 336 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,720 the release, it's a qualitative measure. 337 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,200 But there shouldn't be any drama. 338 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:54,000 Like you shouldn't have to stay awake making sure the release 339 00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,080 goes on a specific date and time. 340 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,400 And it shouldn't take hours and hours to do a release and it 341 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,600 shouldn't cause issues afterwards, right? 342 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,560 So the specific metric there for me is. 343 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:10,080 How long does it take to prepare a release and how long does it 344 00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:15,080 take to do the release itself? At my last company, just as an 345 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:19,320 example, when I joined, it would take the entire week to prepare 346 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:23,920 a release and then almost 36 hours to do the release. 347 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,480 And the context there is there is some context there. 348 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,240 It's not like we did it for without reason. 349 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,440 We were not a multi tenant application, we were a single 350 00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,800 tenant application. So every one of our customer has 351 00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,720 their own infrastructure. So which means we had to 352 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:44,080 release, deploy our software into every single environment 353 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,200 which would explored like whenever we had new larger 354 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:51,800 customers that we dreaded because it would be so much more 355 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,800 infrastructure and new servers and containers where we had to 356 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,120 deploy. And that was not going to change 357 00:20:57,120 --> 00:20:59,760 anytime soon, right. So we did it for a reason the 358 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:03,240 customers wanted. We promised them dedicated 359 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,840 environments as part of their security agreement. 360 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,840 So going multi tenant was not an overnight solution. 361 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,400 We had plans to do that, but it was not an overnight solution. 362 00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:16,960 So anyway, so just the sheer number of servers and containers 363 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,360 took hours and hours plus we didn't have any automated 364 00:21:21,360 --> 00:21:23,840 testing. Again, Long story short, we 365 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:28,080 deployed a known solution Circle CI which I've used in the past, 366 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:32,920 which is robust and can scale and then slowly but steadily 367 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,440 introduced various layers of testing, unit testing, 368 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,320 functional testing, end to end testing, so on and so forth, 369 00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:42,600 Canary bills and etcetera, all the best practices. 370 00:21:43,120 --> 00:21:45,760 Obviously we could not do it overnight, but over a six to 371 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:49,360 nine month time frame, we methodically introduced all 372 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:53,120 these best practices and very proud to share that like 373 00:21:53,120 --> 00:21:56,400 overtime, we we got down to about four hours. 374 00:21:56,400 --> 00:21:59,160 You know, it's still cringeworthy. 4 hours to 375 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:00,760 release, it's still cringeworthy. 376 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,080 But in that setting where we had over 100 customers and thousands 377 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,560 of servers and containers, it, it was a joy to be able to do 378 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,440 that. So, yeah, Long story short, I 379 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:16,640 would say being able to release the joy and confidence is a key 380 00:22:16,640 --> 00:22:19,160 metric for internally looking right. 381 00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,360 So even that after a while it becomes routine for even 382 00:22:23,360 --> 00:22:25,880 outsiders. Our CEO was first impressed. 383 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:27,600 Oh, yeah, that's great. You improved a lot. 384 00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,240 But then what's next? Right. 385 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,240 So I'll pause there and see if you have any questions or 386 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,160 thoughts before I go to my next part of the answer. 387 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:39,400 Yeah. I like what you mentioned, 388 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,720 right, release with joy and confidence and drama free. 389 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,560 I think in still in many teams this might not be possible, 390 00:22:46,560 --> 00:22:48,200 right? So because either like they 391 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,840 don't have automation or they have separate teams that do the 392 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,080 deployment and things like that, or they just don't invest time 393 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:56,800 in building all these, you know, internal tooling and 394 00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,280 capabilities, but they focus more on just churning out code 395 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:03,400 and building features, right? So I think I hear what you said 396 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,680 about Dura metrics and I know that you also have other kind of 397 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,640 metrics and maybe internal dashboard that you use to 398 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,280 actually project different kind of progress or ability that 399 00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,400 engineering does to other cross functional teams. 400 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,440 Maybe if you can share a little bit on what are those you know 401 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:22,800 and to what counterparties, I think that will be great. 402 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:25,960 Yes, Yeah. So, you know, when I first got 403 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,440 introduced to Dora, I still probably remember. 404 00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:32,600 Like I was so excited. Yes, I've conquered the world. 405 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:37,520 Now I have metrics, so I started sharing that with our in our 406 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:40,840 executive team meeting. So first meeting they were like, 407 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:43,800 Oh yeah, curious. The second meeting they asked a 408 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,800 few questions. By third meeting, when I was 409 00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,680 showing the same metrics, they were bored. 410 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,640 They were like, let's move on. You know, the, the point I'm 411 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,640 trying to make is, you know, they are fun for an engineering 412 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:57,360 leader in the engineering team to do. 413 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,800 And I could pretty much guarantee they would become 414 00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,880 table stakes or like a little bit boring even for people 415 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:08,320 outside the team, right. So we, we should still make sure 416 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,680 we are delivering with high quality and confidence for 417 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:15,520 internal reasons. But I see this from the outside 418 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:18,520 in. And what I've come up with over 419 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,480 time is different metrics and values for different teams that 420 00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,960 I interact with. So obviously one of the things 421 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,280 that most of the company, including the executive team 422 00:24:30,360 --> 00:24:32,200 cares about is the product road map. 423 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:38,200 So I partner with the product team and make sure we refine and 424 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:41,560 update the product road map before it becomes a big deal, 425 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,240 right? So many times it would be like 426 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,680 the customer start yelling and screaming and then it's it's in 427 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,040 reverse. Then we have to go back and 428 00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:54,760 scramble and create a road map. So product road map is top of 429 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,800 mind for me. And then going one level deeper, 430 00:24:58,120 --> 00:24:59,920 again, this is somewhat more internal. 431 00:24:59,920 --> 00:25:04,400 So start with the customer facing product road map and then 432 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,880 work backwards to what it means for our technology road map. 433 00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:11,440 So I've learned this several years ago. 434 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,040 Many teams do it the opposite, right? 435 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,720 So they're like we want to scale to 1,000,000 users and start 436 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,440 from there. I would work backwards and then 437 00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:25,560 build the tech road map that powers this product road map and 438 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:30,360 go even one step further. All of us know no product road 439 00:25:30,360 --> 00:25:33,240 map stands the test of reality, right? 440 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:37,840 So, So what we did about seven years ago, I worked with our CTO 441 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:41,720 at the payment gateway company. We came up with four different 442 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,120 outcomes for the company, like when the company's ready for 443 00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:48,840 exit, what would be the turning point? 444 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:50,840 I'll give you a specific example. 445 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:56,120 So to make my point, so we could be acquired by a larger company 446 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,280 or we would sign up a very huge deal. 447 00:25:59,960 --> 00:26:02,160 Those are a couple of outcomes, right? 448 00:26:02,280 --> 00:26:05,160 And we work backwards. So if you had to sign up a very 449 00:26:05,160 --> 00:26:09,640 large customer that man, we should have very robust disaster 450 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,720 recovery. If you were to sign, if you were 451 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,240 signing up medium sized clients, they don't care about Dr. but 452 00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:18,760 very large customers care about disaster recovery. 453 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,120 So again, working backwards. So what are the features we have 454 00:26:22,120 --> 00:26:27,080 to do in AWS? We were in AWS that meant we 455 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,520 were a monolith. So being a monolith and building 456 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,280 a disaster recovery plan is not not easy. 457 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:37,760 So we have to split that into modules and maybe even micro 458 00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,440 services. So it's just an example of how 459 00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,280 working backwards and also working towards multiple 460 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,680 outcomes and see what is common. So in that example, in all of 461 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,480 the outcomes, we had to be able to scale on AWS. 462 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,200 By the way, we were on a private cloud back then. 463 00:26:56,200 --> 00:27:00,640 We were not in the public cloud. So based on that, we made the 464 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,560 decision to like one of our first fundamental steps is to go 465 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:08,160 into a public cloud environment and that will sell all four 466 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,000 different outcomes. By the way, I got excited and I, 467 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,960 I started sharing an example. We have product road map back to 468 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:19,240 the product road map. Having a a robust but flexible 469 00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:22,480 product road map is one of the things the entire company cares 470 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,200 about. Even when I'm talking to the 471 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:28,560 support team. As you know, engineering and 472 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:30,800 support are joined at the hip, right? 473 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:34,880 So as we scale, that means support gets the brunt of it 474 00:27:35,120 --> 00:27:39,560 all, the bugs and issues. So the metric they care most 475 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,880 about, for obvious reasons, is the number of bugs we have 476 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:46,440 active or the time it takes to resolve a bug. 477 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:51,520 And going one level deeper, how long does it take to resolve 478 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:54,520 severity 5 bug versus said one bug, right? 479 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,360 So those kinds of metrics are important to support team. 480 00:27:58,360 --> 00:28:02,040 So when I met with them once a week, that's where I started, 481 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,920 how many bugs, what's the trend line for how long it takes, 482 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,360 etcetera. So that's another metric 483 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,040 customer, our external facing metric. 484 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,720 Lastly, I talk about the people team, right? 485 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:19,920 People, the HR team, they care about how we're doing with our 486 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:22,080 hiring. These days, hiring is not the 487 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,600 most important thing, but it's still kind of important. 488 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:27,800 Like what is our acceptance rate? 489 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,800 So one of the metrics I'm really proud of is when we make offers 490 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,000 as an engineering leader, how many people are accepting those 491 00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:38,040 offers? Even during the peak of the tech 492 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:43,040 market, I was getting close to 100% acceptance rates, and that 493 00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,480 made me proud. So that's one example. 494 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:50,200 And then how long does it take a typical engineer to fully on 495 00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:52,760 board and become part of the team, right? 496 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:56,080 So that's another metric. Pulse surveys is another 497 00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,640 example. So we at one company we did 498 00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:03,360 quarterly pulse surveys with all the engineers and getting a good 499 00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,640 qualitative and quantitative feedback from internal team 500 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,240 members. That's a metric that my HR team 501 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,080 cared about. So Long story short, again, 502 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,320 durametrics are great, but they're very internal facing. 503 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,160 When you start to become an exec and interact with leaders from 504 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,160 other functional areas, think about what metrics they care 505 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,240 about. Whether they're a HR leader, 506 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,560 marketing leader, support leader. 507 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:34,480 They all care about different metrics, so think about which 508 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,240 ones you want to expose to them. Wow. 509 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,600 I think that's a very good overview, right? 510 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:41,640 So how it actually connects, right. 511 00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,800 So I like the one that you mentioned. 512 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,200 Engineers love their own kind of like geeky stuff, right? 513 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,840 So Dora Metrics I believe is kind of like one of our geek 514 00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:51,640 stuffs, right? They always try to talk about 515 00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,560 it, but not all the time, you know, the counterparties 516 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,560 actually are interested in, you know, getting into the inner 517 00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,160 details, right, because they can't connect with what they do, 518 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:01,800 right? So I think product road map, 519 00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:04,200 product delivery is still one big aspect, right? 520 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,320 So also coming back to what you mentioned in the beginning about 521 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,120 the outcome and the impact, right? 522 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,560 If you can't deliver anything about your product, right? 523 00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:13,600 I think you can't deliver the outcome and the impact. 524 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,800 And I like the working backwards from your product road map 525 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,120 rather than engineering LED kind of improvements, right? 526 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:23,160 We all talk about rewriting micro service and things like 527 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,320 that. So those typically are like 528 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,800 engineering driven. But if you can connect it to 529 00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,040 your product road map or product delivery, I think that will be 530 00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,760 an impactful project to do, right? 531 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,560 So I think in all these definitely people and 532 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,560 recruitment is also important, right? 533 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,760 Especially retention as well and onboarding and also the 534 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,560 engineering happiness or developer experience these days. 535 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,320 Anything that you want to add here on how to make sure that 536 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,440 the retention and also the developer pulse survey that you 537 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,680 mentioned actually gives you like a high engagement? 538 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,720 So maybe this is also connected to your culture, Maybe a little 539 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,480 bit about here, culture values, you know how to make engineers 540 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:07,920 more motivated. Yeah, You know, in the beginning 541 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:13,520 I translated the company's values to the rest of the team 542 00:31:13,520 --> 00:31:15,400 and it works well, I think. Right. 543 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,200 So if you have a good mission, especially a good mission and 544 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,840 and a clear mission, working backwards from that and 545 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,640 connecting how the work we're doing to that mission is half 546 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,880 the battle in almost every case it works, but it's not enough, 547 00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,640 in my opinion. I've learned it the hard way. 548 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,120 It's hard to sustain. Just keep on saying we save 549 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,760 lives or we improve the quality of our customers. 550 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:42,280 It gets tiring if you keep on saying the same thing. 551 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,800 So at my last company, I actually took the courage to 552 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,960 build my own culture engineering values. 553 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,440 So I came up with five values, and we'll dig into them 554 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,600 throughout this call. But that's one way, right? 555 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,640 So it's a little bit harder for an engineer. 556 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,200 It takes a leap of faith to connect to a company mission, 557 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:08,120 especially if it's broad, right? So, for example, many companies 558 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,840 say we work in the open, we communicate in the open. 559 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,920 It's somewhat obvious when you say that, yeah, who doesn't want 560 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,280 to work in the open, right? And it's also being a typical 561 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,200 analytical engineer. What does that mean? 562 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:27,800 So obviously it's the job of the leaders to go one level deeper. 563 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,560 But I did that in the form of engineering values. 564 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,800 So to demonstrate, I'll use one example. 565 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,880 So one of the values I created for this company is we always 566 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:43,240 communicate in the open. We celebrate our wins in public, 567 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,560 but at the same time, we document our failures and 568 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:51,040 lessons in the open as well. And then I went one level deeper 569 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,600 and almost every startup uses Slack. 570 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,880 And I feel like most places they don't use Slack in an open 571 00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,480 setting. Like for example, in every 572 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,080 company I join. When I join, I love to look at 573 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,560 the stacks that Slack sends to the admins. 574 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,560 How many conversations are happening in DMS? 575 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,600 How many conversations are happening in a private chat, 576 00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:18,480 private group, and public group? If you have to guess, almost 85% 577 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:20,800 of the conversations are happening in DMS. 578 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,880 I don't know about the global setting but when I joined a 579 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,160 company that's what I see 1st and I cringe. 580 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:30,520 Like why are so many conversations happening in DMS? 581 00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:32,960 It can be that everything is secret. 582 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,080 So anyway, So what I came up with is a simple hierarchical 583 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:40,680 framework. By default everybody should be 584 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,480 talking in the broadest public channel. 585 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:46,920 If you can't do that, if you feel like it's a large group, 586 00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:48,720 being shy should not be a reason. 587 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,360 Everybody should have the courage to talk in a public 588 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,080 group. But if you feel like it's too 589 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:58,120 large of a group and it's it could waste their cycles, then 590 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,600 discuss in a private channel that's purpose like for a 591 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,640 project or initiative only. If you feel like that's not 592 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,080 appropriate or if it's confidential then do a multi 593 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,040 party DM. And the last resort should be 594 00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:16,040 Adm that's one of the values like really breaking it down to 595 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,920 what communication in public name and I'll share another one. 596 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:27,239 So as soon as I join, I create a template for AAR is after action 597 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,120 review, which is another name for postmortems, right? 598 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:34,560 Postmortems are negative. After action reviews are more 599 00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:38,760 neutral or positive. So anytime there's a sizable 600 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:44,320 failure, we immediately start by writing our after action report 601 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,920 and sharing that with the entire engineering team and sometimes 602 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,199 even with the company. In fact, at this company, I 603 00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,760 shared that with the entire company. 604 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:55,159 This is what happened and how are we going to make it better? 605 00:34:55,159 --> 00:34:58,840 What what did we do to fix it and how are we going to prevent 606 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:01,520 it. So that's the share our failures 607 00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,400 and lessons in public. So those are some things in 608 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,800 terms of like how to introduce and reinforce the culture. 609 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,600 Maybe we'll go back to your original question, how to 610 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,200 increase the engagement, right? So maybe I'll pause there and 611 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,960 see if you want to reframe or if you want to dissect that 612 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:24,480 further. So definitely, I think I could 613 00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,960 actually relate to what you're saying just now, right? 614 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,440 So in the typical set up, any companies have a values and 615 00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,960 mission definitely, right. But sometimes those are kind of 616 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,640 like too broad, too general, especially for engineering team 617 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,360 to actually also kind of like remember all the time, right? 618 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,840 I think, yeah, I agree that we have, we need to have like a one 619 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,320 maybe layer breakdown from the company values to ensuring 620 00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,200 values. So I think that's where the 621 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,280 first key take away that I take. And I think you mentioned about 622 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:53,800 Slack DM, right? I think this is coming back to 623 00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:57,120 the culture, you know, the culture of the country's 624 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,760 nationalities. Sometimes some people are more 625 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:01,560 reserved, right? They don't dare to share 626 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,440 publicly, but I think if engineering leaders advocate 627 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,560 sharing in public first by default, right, Do it in open 628 00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,680 rather than the DMI think that's kind of like a good nudge so 629 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:14,600 that we share what we have and not create like too many silos 630 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,840 internally within the team. So I think those are like the 631 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,200 values, right? So maybe one question related to 632 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:23,800 that, when you set the values as engineering leaders, do you 633 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,480 invite, you know, other executives probably or is it 634 00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:28,440 just internal between engineering leaders? 635 00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:31,160 Or do you actually come up with your own values? 636 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,520 So how do you typically set these values? 637 00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,720 Because I think some teams may want to create this kind of 638 00:36:36,720 --> 00:36:39,760 values, but maybe some of them will just think, OK, here are 639 00:36:39,760 --> 00:36:42,080 the best practices from outside. I'll just take all these values 640 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,080 and yeah, well, this is our values now. 641 00:36:44,280 --> 00:36:47,160 So maybe you have a good tips here how to set the values. 642 00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,320 Yeah, I'm smiling because, you know, that's the exact thing I 643 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,760 went through at this company. The direct answer is it depends 644 00:36:55,760 --> 00:36:59,120 on the context, right? So for example, when I said this 645 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:03,720 last time, we had pretty good engineering leaders that had a 646 00:37:03,720 --> 00:37:06,600 lot of what I call the context carriers. 647 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:09,480 They had been at the company for a while. 648 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,000 They know the good and the bad and the existing culture and 649 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,960 what should change. So pretty much relied on those 650 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,640 engineering managers. So I just set the framework and 651 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:21,960 said we need to come up with five to seven values. 652 00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:24,480 This is what I'm broadly thinking, not even give any 653 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,560 hints and let them speak up and do it very collaboratively. 654 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:34,400 So almost 7080% of the values came from those existing context 655 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,720 carriers, I call them at this company. 656 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:42,440 The setting was almost the opposite, a very ambitious but 657 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,120 young engineering team that we're just like churning and 658 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:50,760 doing a lot of good work, but not like with a great amount of 659 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,760 purpose and connection to the mission. 660 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,800 Plus also they're shy and not as much experience doing things 661 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:00,560 like this. So I did invite them to 662 00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,280 contribute. They came up with some simple 663 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,680 ideas, but they were a bit shy and afraid to like speak in the 664 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,560 open. So I did come up with some based 665 00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:13,920 on my best practices and my short tenure at the company, I 666 00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:15,560 knew where some of the gaps were. 667 00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,960 For example, this communication, I saw everybody reaching out to 668 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,280 me in DM, like four people asking me the same question in 669 00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,160 the DMI knew within a couple of weeks that the culture was more 670 00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:30,400 like private and behind the curtain sort of deal. 671 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,160 And that became a core value. Another counterintuitive value I 672 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:38,640 brought to this company is, you know, many companies these days 673 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:42,320 are like, we need to move fast, we need to move fast, right? 674 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,760 So the velocity is important, move fast and break things. 675 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:47,720 That's the kind of a fashion statement. 676 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,960 And luckily we were already, the team was already moving pretty 677 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:57,280 fast, but we were ignoring some best practices like testing and 678 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,760 smooth deployments and things like that. 679 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:05,640 So what A1 Valuer came up with is we take pride in our 680 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,680 craftsmanship, which is how we build things, but we also care 681 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,280 about everything else in engineering, writing high 682 00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:17,240 quality code, being able to deliver with grace and 683 00:39:17,240 --> 00:39:20,640 confidence, things like that. So what the best practices of 684 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,440 engineering were lacking? The speed was already there, so 685 00:39:23,720 --> 00:39:25,640 I didn't say anything about the speed. 686 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,880 When I shared with my peers, they were like stunned. 687 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,000 They're like, why are you not talking about speed? 688 00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:33,920 Bulky, That's important. I'm like, it's table stakes 689 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,000 already, so I want them to think about the next level or even 690 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,760 like the reverse direction, slow down a little. 691 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,960 So we actually do this, right? Yep. 692 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:47,080 So I think definitely it's contextual, right, depending on 693 00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:49,920 the maturity of the team like what you mentioned or maybe how 694 00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,200 long the team or the organization has been formed, 695 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,600 right. So this is also one cue for you 696 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,800 to actually set the culture or the value. 697 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,600 So I think taking just best practice to me sometimes we. 698 00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,320 Lose the connection somehow, like we just feel that it's too 699 00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,680 far beyond us. So I think one key take away for 700 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,840 me as well is that you set the values. 701 00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,040 That is still kind of like ambitious, but achievable, 702 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:12,480 right? It's not like something that is 703 00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:15,560 too far ahead that the team is struggling to actually even 704 00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,400 relate and connect with the mission itself. 705 00:40:18,640 --> 00:40:22,600 So one aspect that I typically got frustrated last time, we set 706 00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:24,920 the values, maybe the principles, you know, what kind 707 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,760 of engineering teams we want to be, right? 708 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,680 People don't kind of like practice that in reality. 709 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:35,600 So how do you actually motivate or make them remember, remind 710 00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:38,640 them all the time that the values are important and we make 711 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:42,240 sure that they get kind of like a practice rather than just 712 00:40:42,240 --> 00:40:43,840 formalities. You know, you put in the docs, 713 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,320 you put in the emails sharing that with everybody, but it's 714 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,800 just like a slogan, right? So maybe any tips from you how 715 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:53,240 you actually remind engineers to always put values behind them 716 00:40:53,240 --> 00:40:55,400 all the time? Yeah, yeah. 717 00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:58,680 So I would give props to Amazon, Right. 718 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,840 So Amazon's leadership principles are so well respected 719 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,880 because they start them at the interview stage itself. 720 00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:12,320 So I'm impressed how they do it. I did an Amazon interview a very 721 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:16,320 long time ago, like 10 years ago, and the recruiter actually 722 00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,160 sent me. They still do this, I believe 723 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,560 all their leadership principles and said you should practice 724 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:25,840 them and and bring examples. So that's my goal standard. 725 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:30,080 So what I've been doing is towards the end of the 726 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,480 interview, I just share my screen and show these values and 727 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,160 see their reaction. I'm like, let's talk through 728 00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,120 these and tell me what do you feel about this? 729 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:43,560 You know, most people naturally will agree, but I'm like, which 730 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:45,800 one do you not agree with? Let's discuss. 731 00:41:46,240 --> 00:41:50,400 So that's one way to even get a feel for, you know, some of the 732 00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,760 cultural aspects of the values. Another thing I try to do is 733 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:59,800 then giving kudos to the team members I incorporate like this 734 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:03,240 is the value you displayed or engineering value you displayed. 735 00:42:03,240 --> 00:42:07,680 So not only say, oh, you know, you worked over the weekend, but 736 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,960 because of that you displayed the specific value. 737 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:15,240 So that reinforces a third thing that I want to do which I 738 00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:20,000 haven't done is actually share the values in the company demos. 739 00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,320 So what I plan to do, you have to wish me luck on this. 740 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,720 At the beginning of my company level demos, I'm going to share 741 00:42:27,720 --> 00:42:32,720 one or more values and give an example of how we'll demonstrate 742 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,320 that value in that demo itself. Or in other words, right. 743 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,040 So it's like varying our values on our shoulder and share with 744 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,160 the rest of the company. So these are some ways to 745 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:46,880 reinforce the third one. Again like Full disclosure, I 746 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:49,600 haven't tried it yet. I'll see how that works. 747 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,840 I. Wish you good luck when you 748 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,880 share that. Finally, definitely the first 749 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,760 aspect about Amazon, I wasn't aware about that, so thanks for 750 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:00,520 sharing that. Right. 751 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,600 So they even asked the candidates during interview 752 00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:07,160 about the principles that they have and asking the candidates 753 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,400 to actually, I don't know, like explain maybe from past 754 00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,040 experience how they actually like display those leadership 755 00:43:13,040 --> 00:43:15,120 attributes. I think that's probably a good 756 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,560 thing for any teams to actually practice, right? 757 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,240 So starting from the interview itself, you can kind of like 758 00:43:20,240 --> 00:43:24,000 gauge the so-called the cultural fit aspect, right, with the 759 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:26,040 candidates. And the other thing, of course, 760 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,720 I think in all these kind of values driven, principles 761 00:43:28,720 --> 00:43:31,560 driven, there should be a like a reward mechanism, right? 762 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,680 So for people to get incentivized, I know it's more 763 00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:36,920 like sometimes it's kind of like a carrot thing, right? 764 00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,720 So we don't want people to just get motivated because of the 765 00:43:39,720 --> 00:43:42,320 rewards. But I think for things to work 766 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:45,240 really well, people needs to have some kind of motivation. 767 00:43:45,720 --> 00:43:47,480 It could be as simple as like what you mentioned, right? 768 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:50,920 Giving kudos or sharing it publicly in the company forum. 769 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:54,200 I think that always gives a moral boost for anyone to 770 00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,440 actually remember the values and kind of like display that all 771 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,400 the time. So thank you for sharing that. 772 00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:03,360 The last topic that I think you mentioned during our pre call is 773 00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:07,400 about practising gratitude and curiosity for engineers. 774 00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,400 Probably this is something that is touchy feely, you know, kind 775 00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:13,200 of thing, right? So maybe a little bit on this. 776 00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:16,120 What do you mean by practicing gratitude and curiosity? 777 00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:17,880 Maybe? How did you come up with this 778 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:19,640 importance? Yeah. 779 00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:24,520 So when I first became a lead almost 10 years ago, 12 years 780 00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:28,600 ago, it wasn't a large old fashioned company, it was a tech 781 00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:32,120 company. But the time, both the timing 782 00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:36,240 and the setting was not like human friendly, right? 783 00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:42,640 So all of my peers and bosses managed by almost by authority 784 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,440 and title and hierarchy. You have to do what I tell you 785 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,200 and that's your job sort of deal. 786 00:44:48,720 --> 00:44:52,600 When I first became a lead, I couldn't do that to my peers. 787 00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:57,080 I was managing all my peers and luckily one of my good 788 00:44:57,600 --> 00:45:00,240 colleagues, he was my role model. 789 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,400 He recommended Baki. You know, you should listen to 790 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,520 this podcast called Manager tools. 791 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,800 Don't even know if this still exists, but it was my first 792 00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:12,280 introduction to podcast and leadership. 793 00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,600 It's called manager Hyphen tools and they were two hosts. 794 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,520 Really funny, but also deep, meaningful advice on how to be a 795 00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:24,640 good leader. And the whole team was about 796 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:28,200 gratitude and curiosity leading from behind. 797 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:32,000 So I observed that whether it was right or wrong back then, 798 00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,160 but that was the style I I was attracted to. 799 00:45:36,000 --> 00:45:39,920 Over the years I refined it, but that's where it all started for 800 00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,920 me in terms of putting that in practice. 801 00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:47,160 For example, when I join a company, I tried to get closer 802 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,880 to the team members, even if there's multiple layers, 803 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:55,560 directors, managers, etcetera. I like to connect with each one 804 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:59,840 of the members one-on-one and on a very personal level. 805 00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:04,320 So their family, their hobbies, you know, again, it's not 806 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,600 everyone is open to it, but I kind of tired them out and, and 807 00:46:08,600 --> 00:46:11,880 extract the details from overtime. 808 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:14,760 They'll confide in me and share things. 809 00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:18,640 Some people are more open, some people it takes 3 or 4 sessions 810 00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:21,760 to know that I'm not encroaching their privacy. 811 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,720 It's just genuine curiosity, right? 812 00:46:23,720 --> 00:46:29,000 So knowing those and being able to reconnect on those, you know, 813 00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,800 people are interested in home automation, robotics, Legos, 814 00:46:33,840 --> 00:46:36,920 video games. I'm not into all of them, but I 815 00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:39,240 also use this as an opportunity to learn. 816 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,960 At my last company, several people were into home 817 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,160 automation, so I wasn't as much into it. 818 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,640 But after talking to several of them and went going to there, 819 00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,080 they even had their own group meetings. 820 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,080 So join those group meetings. I got into it, right? 821 00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,320 So that's the curiosity part, showing that genuine interest in 822 00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,240 what other people are interested in video games. 823 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:08,840 I never got into video games, but I ask the engineers about 824 00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,040 what's the latest and greatest video game and who are they 825 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:14,720 playing with? So it must be similar to you. 826 00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:18,680 But most engineers like, that's their bonding experience with 827 00:47:18,680 --> 00:47:21,480 their colleagues, right? So they play video games with 828 00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,080 each other. Honestly, I couldn't get in, but 829 00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:28,560 I I still, I'm curious about it in terms of gratitude, I already 830 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,640 shared about whenever I join a company, the first channel I 831 00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,960 create is either kudos or shout outs. 832 00:47:36,360 --> 00:47:40,200 And then once or twice a week, I have a reminder on my calendar 833 00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:43,920 to see what's the highlight, who went above and beyond, who 834 00:47:43,920 --> 00:47:49,240 practice that engineering value well, and then tag them and 835 00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:54,400 their boss, whether it's on our team or external, and give a 836 00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,200 very thoughtful shout out to the folks. 837 00:47:58,240 --> 00:48:01,680 And believe it or not, within like a few weeks, that becomes 838 00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,560 the most active channel with all the reactions, right? 839 00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:08,960 So everybody likes to be recognized and appreciated. 840 00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,120 In fact, like one of the managers, he actually used that 841 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,120 as a like he would go to that Channel when he was writing the 842 00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:20,640 performance review because that's the best way to see what 843 00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:25,840 all accomplishments people have. And if somebody comes to me and 844 00:48:26,000 --> 00:48:28,800 praises somebody else, I'm like, don't tell me I'm closing my 845 00:48:28,800 --> 00:48:32,480 ears, go to the shout out channel and share that with 846 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,200 their with that person and their manager directly. 847 00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:41,000 So those are some ways to really recognize and in a genuine and 848 00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:44,360 caring manner. And it helps in the long term. 849 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:48,320 In the short term it feels like work, but in the long term I can 850 00:48:48,320 --> 00:48:50,920 guarantee it helps. Yeah. 851 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,280 So I think it's really beautiful the message that you just 852 00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:55,560 conveyed, right? At the end of the day, it's all 853 00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,240 human kind of thing, right? So we are not robots. 854 00:48:59,240 --> 00:49:01,080 Engineers are not robots, definitely, right. 855 00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:05,040 So we also have kind of like a feeling and we want to have some 856 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:06,800 kind of recognition from others, right. 857 00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,600 So I think for any leaders, don't create some kind of toxic 858 00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,640 culture where it's all about work and, you know, delivery and 859 00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:15,400 all that. Practice gratitude and 860 00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,200 curiosity. I think sometimes, yeah, as 861 00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:20,960 leaders to practice curiosity outside of work is something 862 00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,240 that we need to remind ourselves all the time, right? 863 00:49:23,240 --> 00:49:24,960 Not everything is about delivery, right? 864 00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:28,080 And also issues whenever there's an issue, right, when things get 865 00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,000 done, right. So I think that's a primary 866 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:33,400 focus for many of the leaders, but actually to also be curious 867 00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:37,280 about the individuals, you know, maybe do one on ones a lot more 868 00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:39,880 often and also skip level from time to time, right? 869 00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:43,160 And also the kudos channel, I think for those of you who 870 00:49:43,160 --> 00:49:46,520 haven't got this kudos channel, please create it straight away 871 00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:50,400 and start giving people kudos. So Balki, thank you so much for 872 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,280 your time. I think I really enjoyed this 873 00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,040 conversation. There are so many aspects that 874 00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:56,480 we can learn from your leadership and practices. 875 00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,240 So I have one last question that I would like to ask you to end 876 00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:01,440 the conversation. I call this the three technical 877 00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,720 leadership wisdom. You can think of them just like 878 00:50:03,720 --> 00:50:05,360 an advice that you want to give to us. 879 00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,640 Maybe if you can share your version I think that will be 880 00:50:07,640 --> 00:50:10,640 great. Yeah, top three. 881 00:50:10,640 --> 00:50:13,640 I would say the biggest one. This is a little more 882 00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:18,520 professional, but one of my biggest failures in my 883 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,000 professional setting was that first job when I was a manager 884 00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,800 at a new company. The primary reason I failed in 885 00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:31,040 that was I didn't think in terms of slices of work and phases of 886 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,600 work, right? Like the team had this big 887 00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:40,080 vision to work in the background and deliver a brand new product 888 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:42,520 in a Big Bang fashion. I got carried away. 889 00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:44,040 I'm like, Oh yeah, that's awesome. 890 00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:48,840 And sure enough, like every obstacle that could come our way 891 00:50:48,960 --> 00:50:53,240 either like a conference or a angry customer, it would keep 892 00:50:53,240 --> 00:50:55,960 delaying that. And Long story short, again like 893 00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,120 that was AI had a miserable failure. 894 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:01,800 It took like 10 times longer to deliver that product. 895 00:51:02,440 --> 00:51:08,280 So the lesson there is 99% of the projects or features you can 896 00:51:08,280 --> 00:51:11,680 deliver value within a few weeks. 897 00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,120 Anything that takes more than two to four weeks you can chop 898 00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,120 it down into a smaller phase of work. 899 00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:23,280 So deliver value in phases or slices is my first idea. 900 00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,880 The second one is be open to failures. 901 00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,600 In fact embrace and look for failure. 902 00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,960 So again, it goes with the first principle, but for most of my 903 00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:40,120 life, I grew up in a setting where failure was not OK, right. 904 00:51:40,120 --> 00:51:44,800 So what it meant is many times I wouldn't even venture into doing 905 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:49,320 something which college I wanted to, which career I want to 906 00:51:49,320 --> 00:51:51,000 pursue. It's it's too hard. 907 00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,160 It's too difficult. So I won't even try it. 908 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,080 And I just like winning all the time because I was choosing easy 909 00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,560 targets. So, you know, I love and I 910 00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:06,160 especially with my young kids, I teach them to push themselves to 911 00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:10,800 try harder things, not to succeed, but to see what happens 912 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,160 and learn from that failure. The mistake. 913 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,640 Third one, it's a little bit about career progression. 914 00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:21,960 I would say it's OK to be immersed in work and really 915 00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:25,840 enjoy and just be focused on what you're doing for a living. 916 00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:30,800 I would strongly recommend though that raise your head once 917 00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:36,440 in a while to go back into the community and network and build 918 00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:40,520 your personal brand. Don't overdo it, but I would say 919 00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:45,920 for most engineers they do. Even engineering leaders. 100% 920 00:52:45,920 --> 00:52:50,720 or 120% is about delivery and getting joy from the craft. 921 00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,040 I would say allocate 10 to 20% depending on where you are in 922 00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:57,440 your career. So I'll be honest on this 923 00:52:57,440 --> 00:53:02,640 podcast, I target between 15 and 20% these days because of the 924 00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:07,440 executive level I am in my personal brand and networking is 925 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,720 quite important. So the remaining 80% I'm 926 00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,920 delivering and having fun in work, but 15 to 20% I 927 00:53:15,480 --> 00:53:18,520 intentionally do those things, building personal brand and 928 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,640 networking. So I would recommend that to 929 00:53:20,640 --> 00:53:23,920 folks at any level, especially for engineering leaders, it's 930 00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:25,920 quite important. Yeah. 931 00:53:25,920 --> 00:53:28,520 So I think the last one I could agree with you, right. 932 00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:31,280 So because especially the situation in the job market 933 00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:34,280 these days, right, it's quite tough and especially any kind of 934 00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:37,400 situations could happen, be it layoff or change of culture 935 00:53:37,400 --> 00:53:41,040 suddenly in one go, right? Then if you don't have this kind 936 00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:44,480 of network with community or maybe kind of like network with 937 00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,560 outsider people. And thirdly, about the personal 938 00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,040 brand, right, where you are recognized for some kind of 939 00:53:50,040 --> 00:53:52,840 things, right? I think those would tend to open 940 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,960 up new doors for you and new opportunities whenever you need 941 00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:58,120 it one day, right? So I think thanks for sharing 942 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,040 that. So Balki, if people would like 943 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,200 to connect with you or they want to get in touch and do a lot 944 00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:05,440 more conversation with you, is there a place where they can 945 00:54:05,440 --> 00:54:08,440 find you online? Yeah, I love LinkedIn these 946 00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,360 days. I feel like I learn a lot and be 947 00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,680 able to share my wisdom there, so I'm open to connections on 948 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,080 LinkedIn. The only tip I give is don't 949 00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:21,400 send me a blank connection. Say something either about this 950 00:54:21,400 --> 00:54:25,840 podcast or anything, but write a personal note and I'll accept 951 00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,800 your invitation and even have a virtual coffee with you. 952 00:54:30,720 --> 00:54:33,880 Thank you for that invitation. So hopefully people can take 953 00:54:33,880 --> 00:54:35,760 your invite to get a virtual coffee. 954 00:54:35,840 --> 00:54:37,400 So thanks again for your time today. 955 00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:40,080 I think we all learn about engineering, leadership and good 956 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,520 practices from you. So I think thank you so much for 957 00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,920 this time. Henry, thank you so much. 958 00:54:44,920 --> 00:54:48,640 I do want to thank you personally and then congratulate 959 00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,320 you. Since we connected, I saw two 960 00:54:51,320 --> 00:54:55,280 milestones. So you are you reached the 10K 961 00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,360 downloads milestone on Spotify, is that correct recently? 962 00:54:59,680 --> 00:55:03,520 10,000 Subscribers Subscribers. On Spotify, which is amazing. 963 00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:08,120 And then you were featured alongside some cool startups. 964 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:12,160 So that, that one made me smile, you know, as a podcast featured 965 00:55:12,160 --> 00:55:15,320 alongside starters. Only Henry can do that. 966 00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:18,520 So thank you so much. Thank you so much for the 967 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:20,320 appreciation, it means a lot to me.