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You are always thinking like an 
engineer, but you need to 

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communicate like an executive. 
The more you start communicating

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with people without using 
jargons, the more you can build 

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flexibility in your 
communication. 

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You will not only enjoy your 
career, you will have more 

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opportunities. 
You will have more impact in 

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your job. 
I am an engineer, why do I need 

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00:00:18,520 --> 00:00:22,160
public speakings here? 
What people don't realize is you

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00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:24,800
are looking at one aspect of 
communication which is standing 

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in public and speaking, but 
there is a lot goes on behind 

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it. 
This question keeps coming that 

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I don't like self promotion. 
I don't like talking about 

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myself or about my project. 
There is a distinction between 

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self promotion and 
self-expression. 

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When you are standing in front 
of people and talking, please 

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don't think you are self 
promoting. 

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Think of it as a self-expression
activity. 

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A lot of people talk about 
motivation. 

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I have learned that motivation 
is a state of mind. 

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It is not something outside you,
it is always inside you. 

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It's always thoughts become 
feelings, feelings drive your 

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action or behaviors. 
Usually when I work with people,

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I ask them what are your 
intrinsic goals? 

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What do you really want to 
achieve in your life? 

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When I ask people, people don't 
have clear goals. 

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They say I don't know my purpose
in life. 

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Without accountability, I don't 
think we will achieve our 

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intrinsic goals. 
For extrinsic goals, you will 

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have your manager coming after 
you and saying OK what's 

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happening with this project, but
intrinsic goals, you are the one

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who cares about it. 
Hi everyone, welcome back to 

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another new episode of the 
Technician Podcast. 

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I have a guest today. 
He's an experienced engineering 

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leader turned coach, so he has 
two decades of experience 

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working in Oracle and Meta. 
Pramoda Fiyasha Rao today is 

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with me. 
I'm really excited to talk to 

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you today about communications, 
how we can get better at it and 

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also like some learnings from 
your coaching and also like goal

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setting kind of experience. 
So welcome to the show, Pramoda.

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I am so excited to be here. 
Henry kind of watched your 

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episodes every year, but excited
to be here as a guest. 

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Right, Pramoda, I always love to
ask my guests maybe first to 

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share a little bit about 
yourself, particularly if you 

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have some career turning points 
that you think we all can learn 

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from that. 
I can share the two turning 

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points from my career. 
One is as an engineer, I 

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struggled with communicating in 
public, especially presenting 

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ideas to a group. 
Luckily, I learned about a club 

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called Toastmasters back in 
2003. 

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I joined the club and I went to 
their meetings for about 3 years

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from 2003 to 2006. 
This was a huge turning point 

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for my career because after 
those three years I became so 

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good in communicating, 
clarifying and ideas selling to 

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people. 
That actually gave me a new 

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opportunity in my career. 
I became a product manager for a

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couple of years, then enterprise
data architect, then went into 

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engineering management career. 
So that was a big breakthrough 

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in my career. 
It opened a new doors of 

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possibilities for me as an 
engineer. 

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The second ministry in my career
has been last year. 

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There was a massive layer of 
what meta last year in January 

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2023, my role was also 
eliminated. 

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I was at a choice point. 
Should I go get another job in 

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big tech or do something on my 
own? 

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I always wanted to be a coach, 
author and help other people 

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with leadership. 
I decided to take a two year 

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career break from 2023 to 25 to 
teach courses, to do 1 to one 

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coaching and publish a book. 
Those two are important turning 

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points in my life. 
The journey of Toastmasters and 

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becoming an author coach after 
early offered matter. 

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Well, thanks for sharing these 
two definitely great turning 

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points, right. 
So the first thing maybe if, if 

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I can pick a little bit about 
the layoffs. 

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I, I know some people might get 
affected through some layoffs in

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some big companies. 
What is your personal experience

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going through this journey and 
maybe some tips for people who 

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may have gone into the same 
situation? 

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My number one tip, Henry, is 
anyone who goes through this 

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should not make it personal 
because it is not you or me. 

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It's all a result of the economy
and how the business is doing 

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and we don't make decisions. 
In fact, in my career, I have 

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made decisions where I have let 
go other people in my list, in 

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my team. 
So I understand how the process 

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works, how the list is made and 
how things work. 

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My message to folks is please 
never take this personally. 

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It is not about you as an 
individual. 

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It's a lot of variables involved
and you have no control. 

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The second advice I have is find
a coach or a mentor who you can 

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talk and share your idea. 
Here is what I'm doing. 

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Here is my plan right now. 
If you want to take a couple of 

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months break or work for some 
smaller companies or do some 

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00:04:44,360 --> 00:04:48,280
consulting work, work with a 
mentor or a coach who can help 

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you guide in the right 
direction. 

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Because if you're all doing all 
alone and thinking all by 

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yourself, sometimes you start 
doubting yourself and that does 

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not help, especially the time of
not being employed. 

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So two things to summarize 1 is 
don't take it personally. 

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Find some professional help from
a mentor on a coach. 

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00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,080
Yeah. 
I think it's very important not 

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to couple this situation with 
your identity, with your 

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capability, right? 
With your situation, right? 

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But sometimes it's rather 
unfortunate. 

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I experienced it before as well,
like, I mean, like many, many 

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years ago. 
So I think it's always very 

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important. 
Don't let yourself down simply 

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because you think it's all your 
fault, right? 

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So I think that's a very good 
message. 

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And I think another thing that 
we want to talk about today is 

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about communication. 
I know that in the beginning you

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mentioned about your career 
turning point, which is joining 

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Toastmasters. 
I think Toastmasters have been 

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around for many, many, many 
years. 

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Maybe just a little bit of, I 
don't know, like what's your 

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00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,600
take about Toastmasters? 
Should engineers start 

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00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:46,520
considering joining Toastmasters
to improve their communication? 

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Yeah, my answer is absolutely 
yes. 

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In fact, there was a time where 
we used to, I was a vice 

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president of membership at all 
of these club, Toastmaster. 

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We used to run around the 
building and pull people to the 

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media. 
You should come, you need this 

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00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:01,920
skill, you should come. 
And they would ask me, I am an 

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00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:03,880
engineer, why do I need public 
speaking skill? 

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What people don't realize is you
are looking at one aspect of 

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00:06:07,840 --> 00:06:10,160
communication, which is standing
in public and speaking. 

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But there is a lot goes on 
behind it. 

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You create a speech for about 5 
to 7 minutes. 

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00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:19,440
So you write 500 to 700 words on
a Word document. 

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00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,200
You prepare on a topic. 
That's an excellent skill to 

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00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,280
gain as an engineer. 
You are researching, you are 

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00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,680
thinking and you is using 
methodology to write your speech

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00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,640
from beginning, body and ending,
and you are able to persuade 

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people, narrate stories and 
information and speech inspiring

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00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,000
speech many things you can 
achieve interest, master 

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writing, making a case for a 
story, emotional aspects of a 

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00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:45,120
speech and connecting with the 
audience. 

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These are great things to learn.
You will become a better writer,

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00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:51,560
better speaker and better human 
being by meeting more people. 

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00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,920
So there's a lot of things you 
can gain with Toastmasters. 

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00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,880
Most people unfortunately think 
it's only public speaking. 

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00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,560
I'm not interested in speaking 
in public and entertaining the 

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audience. 
I'm not of that personality. 

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00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:06,640
They just cop out giving that as
a reason. 

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00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,960
But there is a lot you can gain 
by being a member. 

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00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:11,320
These days there are online 
clubs. 

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00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,880
Back in the days in 2003, there 
was an online club. 

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00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:15,960
We had to go to the club meeting
in person. 

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00:07:16,640 --> 00:07:19,120
These days there are online 
meetings on Zoom and other 

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mechanisms. 
So find out a club in your area.

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00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:24,800
You can go to the website 
toastmasters.org. 

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You can find out clubs in your 
area and join them. 

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You will not regret the 
decision. 

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00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:32,760
I can tell you from my 
experience, you will never 

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00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,520
regret the decision. 
I personally haven't joined 

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00:07:35,520 --> 00:07:38,400
Toastmasters, although I have 
joined some of the meetings just

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to get a glimpse of what 
Toastmasters is all about, 

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00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:42,840
right? 
So one, maybe one question. 

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I mean, you have said it like 
many engineers think they don't 

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00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:47,480
want to do public speaking. 
They don't want to be a great 

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00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,640
presenter orator or whatever 
that is right? 

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00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,600
And sometimes joining this 
meeting feels intimidating 

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because you see a lot of great 
speakers doing their speaking, 

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right. 
So what's your take away for us 

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not to get this Hutton looking 
at the great speakers like how 

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00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,600
do you actually that you know 
when you join postmasters until 

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00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:08,000
you become a great speaker like 
now? 

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00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,760
I love the question. 
This comes in my 1 tone coaching

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00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,080
as well. 
I coach a lot of senior 

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00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,960
engineers and managers. 
This question keeps coming that 

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00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:18,640
I don't like self promotion. 
I don't like talking about 

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00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:22,520
myself or about my project. 
I don't like enjoying. 

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00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:24,320
I don't like standing in front 
of people and talking. 

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My answer always to my clients 
is there is a distinction 

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between self promotion and 
self-expression. 

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There is a huge difference when 
you're standing in front of 

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people and talking. 
Please don't think you're self 

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00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:41,320
promoting. 
Think of it as a self-expression

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activity. 
You have some ideas, you have 

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00:08:44,159 --> 00:08:46,280
some thoughts in your mind, you 
have some experience in your 

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00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:47,320
life. 
They are unique to you. 

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00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,880
You can bring all that 
experience and make it a matter 

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00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:55,040
of self-expression in front of a
group, not to impress them or 

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00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:58,440
just to express yourself. 
That will burden. 

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00:08:58,520 --> 00:09:00,840
That will reduce the burden from
your shoulder that you're not 

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00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,080
impressing people with their 
skills, you're merely expressing

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00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:06,840
your ideas in front of. 
People, that's actually a very 

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00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,880
great tips. 
I remember Kelsey Hightown also 

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00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:11,600
mentioned about this, right? 
It's about telling your story 

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00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:14,240
rather than to impress or even 
imitate other people, right? 

189
00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:16,200
So I think it's about expressing
yourself. 

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00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:19,520
So thanks for highlighting that.
So one thing that you do is 

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00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:22,280
actually to create this course 
called Communication 

192
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:24,520
Engineering, right? 
So I think the selling page of 

193
00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:27,240
this course is thing like an 
engineer but talk like an 

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00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,360
executive. 
So maybe this is something from 

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00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,240
your past experience as well. 
Tell us like, what's the gist of

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00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,920
this course and why we should 
think like an executive 

197
00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,120
actually? 
What happens I have seen in an 

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00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:40,920
engineer's career, the Henry's 
in my own career and others have

199
00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:44,080
been helping. 
There is this notion that either

200
00:09:44,080 --> 00:09:48,080
our mentality, I am either a 
strong colder engineer, 

201
00:09:48,080 --> 00:09:52,520
technical problem solver, or I 
am a leader or a communicator 

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00:09:52,520 --> 00:09:54,800
and presenter. 
This has to stop. 

203
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,160
This either our has to stop in 
the industry. 

204
00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,640
That is why I keep bringing this
concept of you are always 

205
00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,720
thinking like an engineer, but 
you need to communicate like an 

206
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:05,840
executive. 
It's a combination of both. 

207
00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:07,720
You don't have to drop your 
technical skills. 

208
00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,280
You are the expert in your 
domain. 

209
00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:11,920
But the more you start 
communicating with people 

210
00:10:12,440 --> 00:10:15,760
without using Jargon's technical
words whenever it is required 

211
00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:19,440
with a business team or your 
leadership team or customers, 

212
00:10:19,760 --> 00:10:21,920
the more you can build 
flexibility in your 

213
00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,400
communication. 
You will not only enjoy your 

214
00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,040
career, you will have more 
opportunities, you will have 

215
00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,200
more impact in your job. 
That is the number one reason I 

216
00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:33,080
tell people to consider 
communication is it's a 

217
00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:36,560
combination of both. 
So what I did was after I 

218
00:10:36,560 --> 00:10:39,480
started my own company last 
year, the company is called Tain

219
00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:42,040
Smith Coaching. 
I thought how do I bring my 

220
00:10:42,040 --> 00:10:44,760
experience of those faster 
people who don't want to go for 

221
00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,040
a long time, like three years or
four years? 

222
00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:50,280
How do I condense all my 
experience in a four week course

223
00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,640
where they get all the 
foundational elements and they 

224
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:55,280
can develop habits in four 
weeks? 

225
00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:57,840
That was my intention behind 
this course. 

226
00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,120
I condensed all my experience in
communicating, connecting with 

227
00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:05,000
people, sharing feedback, 
conversations with people. 

228
00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:07,520
I took all that various 
framework of authors and my 

229
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,120
experience. 
I packaged that into a four week

230
00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:11,840
course called Communication 
Engineering. 

231
00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:15,880
The premise of the course is 
based on the audience, based on 

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who you are speaking to. 
You need to flexibly change your

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style as well as mode of 
communication. 

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How much you share, like how 
much detail. 

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It's like you are in the 
elevator. 

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Depending on your audience, you 
can go higher in the elevator 

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which is more abstract and high 
level information. 

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Or if somebody is your peer 
engineer, you can go down the 

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elevator and tell them 
everything about details. 

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So this is the flexibility of 
communication elevator from 

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ground floor to tax floor 
depending on who you are 

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communicating with. 
Right, I think like almost many 

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engineers, right, would go into 
details, especially when people 

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ask and sometimes they use 
jargon like what you said, 

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right? 
And sometimes like explaining it

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from the tech point of view. 
So I think speaking like an 

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executive definitely is very 
important. 

248
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You know, especially you 
mentioned in the course pitch as

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well, right, If you want to 
progress in your career, right, 

250
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,640
going into the ladder, maybe 
becoming a more experienced 

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engineering leader, senior VP 
and things like that. 

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And why do you think this is 
such an important thing to 

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progress in your? 
If you really see software 

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engineering is a team sport, it 
is not an individual sport. 

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You see any company they are 
developing in teams, whether it 

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is a clear product development 
company or a traditional IT 

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company or platform engineering.
Any group you go to, you don't 

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work in isolation. 
You always work with people who 

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are non-technical. 
These non-technical people can 

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be other people like data 
scientists, the product 

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00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,120
managers, business analysts or 
business systems analysts, 

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00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:48,400
marketing, sales, finance, 
customer support and your own 

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customers for example. 
They may be non-technical. 

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So when you communicate with 
these people, it is extremely 

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important you connect with them.
What happens is as you grow in 

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your career and you build these 
skills, invariably you get 

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invited to go to meetings where 
communication skill is required.

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If you don't have these skills. 
So you will not get these 

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opportunities when you have 
these skills. 

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I am sure if somebody has a 
skill, their manager will say, 

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can you attend this meeting? 
We want you to communicate to 

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the customer in that meeting. 
You have the skill, technical 

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skill already. 
But adding those communication 

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aspects will become helpful to 
you. 

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You will become more valuable in
the conversations because you 

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can connect with people, you can
speak their language, not only 

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your language, but their 
language of business, their 

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challenges, their user journey 
and so on. 

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So in one word, it's flexibility
in your communication gives you 

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00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,160
more opportunities in your 
career. 

281
00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:44,040
Yeah. 
So I think also sometimes it's 

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very important to convey your 
idea, you know, like how do you 

283
00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:49,520
think from the technology rather
than just following from others,

284
00:13:49,520 --> 00:13:51,880
right? 
Be part of the critical members 

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00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:54,560
of the team, right, in order to 
bring the company forward. 

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00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,240
And definitely communication, be
it verbally or in, you know, 

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00:13:58,240 --> 00:14:00,480
writings, right, are very, very 
important. 

288
00:14:00,680 --> 00:14:03,640
So what's your take about 
writing communication skills? 

289
00:14:03,680 --> 00:14:05,920
Do you think this is equally 
important as well? 

290
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,400
Absolutely. 
Both. 

291
00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:12,440
The writing documents, writing 
emails, your Slack messages, in 

292
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,640
fact even presentations as well.
The way you design 

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00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:16,800
presentations. 
Some companies don't like 

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00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,440
presentations, like Amazon, they
like 6 page document. 

295
00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,520
That's fine, but both of them 
require thoughtful writing. 

296
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:25,120
Writing is not easy because you 
need to crystallize your 

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00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,840
thinking. 
It needs new skills, it needs 

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00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,640
practice. 
The writing stories, writing 

299
00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:34,160
your memos or a structured 
document as well as compiling 

300
00:14:34,160 --> 00:14:35,960
your top five ideas on a 
presentation. 

301
00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:37,720
Both are extremely important 
skills. 

302
00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:39,760
You start with verbal 
communication. 

303
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,640
You communicate orally and share
your thoughts. 

304
00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,160
But at some point, to scale 
yourself, you need to start 

305
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:48,440
documenting well, writing things
well, and there are many 

306
00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:50,080
benefits. 
At some point you can start your

307
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:51,800
own newsletter. 
As an engineer, you can start 

308
00:14:51,800 --> 00:14:53,960
your own blog. 
There are so many things you can

309
00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,360
do these days. 
These skills, if you pick up 

310
00:14:56,360 --> 00:14:59,800
along the way, they can become 
your life skills and they can 

311
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:01,560
also help you monetize them 
later. 

312
00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,720
There are good benefits of 
becoming a better writer and 

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00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:08,320
communicator. 
So I can attest right at the 

314
00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,480
very beginning, I think both 
writing and, you know, speaking 

315
00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:13,320
to me were the very difficult, 
right? 

316
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:14,960
But like you said, it's a skill,
right? 

317
00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,440
We all can learn from it. 
We can get better at it. 

318
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,560
Maybe we can find coach and 
mentor as well. 

319
00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:21,720
So I think those two skills, 
especially if you want to 

320
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:23,920
progress in your career, 
definitely very important. 

321
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,240
You also have this framework 
called Tall framework in your 

322
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:29,680
communication engineering. 
Maybe give us a little bit of 

323
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:31,240
glimpse like what is tall 
framework? 

324
00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:33,320
How can we use it to improve our
communication? 

325
00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,480
What I'll do, Henry, is I'll 
give you a quick overview of the

326
00:15:36,480 --> 00:15:39,880
four aspects and you can go 
deeper into any of those. 

327
00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:43,080
I brought up this stall 
framework because these are the 

328
00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:46,600
four areas I learned as an 
engineer and there as a product 

329
00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:48,080
manager and engineering need of 
that. 

330
00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,760
These four areas are crucial for
communication, leadership, and 

331
00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:55,920
personal development. 
The first area is called talking

332
00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:58,960
with structures. 
When somebody asks me a question

333
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,800
in a business forum or in a 
customer meeting, I need to 

334
00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,240
think about how do I ensure I 
answer in a way that people 

335
00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,640
remember information and 
structures are extremely helpful

336
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:11,200
for people to remember 
information. 

337
00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,560
So in that aspect, I teach a lot
of structures to communicate. 

338
00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,000
One example could be what 
happened? 

339
00:16:18,600 --> 00:16:20,720
So what? 
Like why is it important? 

340
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,040
And now what? 
So what, So what and now what is

341
00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:27,760
a nice structure to communicate?
If you tell me what's happening 

342
00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:30,000
with this release, give me an 
update, I can say what's 

343
00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,280
happening, why is it important, 
and what are the next steps. 

344
00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:36,920
That's one example of structure.
We can go into more details 

345
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,960
later. 
The second aspect is in the tall

346
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:42,280
framework is asking insightful 
questions. 

347
00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:47,160
I realized in my own career I 
knew how to answer, how to make 

348
00:16:47,160 --> 00:16:50,520
statements, but I did not know 
how to ask good questions. 

349
00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,600
My questions are primarily 
binary questions that elicited 

350
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,080
yes or no answers. 
Did you do this? 

351
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,040
This is ready. 
Those are all yes or no answers,

352
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,040
but if you ask open-ended 
questions you can make people 

353
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:08,119
think and respond well. 
Like why, what, how, where, 

354
00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:11,079
when, how. 
Asking these questions will 

355
00:17:11,319 --> 00:17:14,560
elicit more information. 
It will help them clarify their 

356
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:16,520
thoughts and tell you what's 
happening in their mind. 

357
00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,960
The third one in Tall framework 
is listening. 

358
00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:22,480
Listening deeply to go beyond 
words. 

359
00:17:22,839 --> 00:17:26,119
Because many times in a 
conversation we are not trained 

360
00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,120
to listen. 
We are trained to interrupt and 

361
00:17:29,120 --> 00:17:32,600
respond, look for the 
opportunity to talk, and then 

362
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,680
there is a pause. 
I take over the conversation 

363
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,720
though. 
In this framework, we talk about

364
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,680
how do we listen well, how do we
demonstrate that we are 

365
00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:44,280
listening as well as reconfirm 
our understanding through 

366
00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:46,080
listening. 
That happens in the end 

367
00:17:46,080 --> 00:17:49,160
framework, which is listening. 
The last one is called 

368
00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,120
leadership development. 
I am a big fan of Doctor 

369
00:17:52,120 --> 00:17:54,920
Marshall Goldsmith who wrote the
book What Got You Here Won't Get

370
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,360
You There. 
In fact, Marshall also endorsed 

371
00:17:57,360 --> 00:17:59,320
my book. 
If you remember the book title, 

372
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,160
he endorsed my book. 
He's a gracious person. 

373
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,400
I love his leadership 
methodology. 

374
00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,000
In the last framework, we talk 
about a simple model called 

375
00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,480
stakeholder centered leadership 
coaching. 

376
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,880
Then a three steps trace. 
We can go deeper later. 

377
00:18:14,120 --> 00:18:17,920
I call them as ABC method 
awareness, behavioral change and

378
00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:19,440
continuous measurement. 
ABC. 

379
00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,120
We can go to that later. 
So these 4 aspects, talking with

380
00:18:23,120 --> 00:18:25,920
structure so that people can 
remember your information and 

381
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:29,440
digest and understand. 
Asking good questions make 

382
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:32,280
people think. 
Third one is listening well in 

383
00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,040
conversation so you can 
understand their perspective and

384
00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,240
reframe things. 
And last one is you put all 

385
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,720
these things together. 
How do you grow as a leader with

386
00:18:41,120 --> 00:18:43,880
your own self-awareness, getting
feedback from others, 

387
00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:47,440
consistently making behavioral 
changes, and continuously 

388
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:49,920
measuring what is working and 
what is not with your 

389
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,520
stakeholders. 
That is a great package called 

390
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,160
Town Framework for Communication
and Leadership. 

391
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:58,920
Wow, thank you for highlighting 
this summary, right. 

392
00:18:58,920 --> 00:19:01,560
So I think even just by 
listening this summary right, 

393
00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,400
everyone can benefit, you know, 
improve their communication. 

394
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,280
So maybe if you don't mind, we 
we go a little bit for some of 

395
00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,280
the elements, right? 
So the first one is talking with

396
00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,720
structure. 
I find like people sometimes 

397
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:14,800
talk just, you know, going 
through their thoughts, right? 

398
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:17,200
Like whatever their thoughts, 
they just narrate it in that 

399
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,960
way. 
And sometimes it's not intuitive

400
00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,360
for us to come up with a 
structure. 

401
00:19:20,360 --> 00:19:22,880
I think you gave one just like 
what happened then? 

402
00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:25,440
Why is it important? 
And so what's next, right? 

403
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,480
And I think in some interview 
tips also, they kind of like 

404
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,680
advocate things like star method
and you know, whatever that is, 

405
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:34,080
right? 
So maybe if you can give some 

406
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,120
frameworks that we can use to 
actually structure our 

407
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,880
communication better. 
Are there other frameworks that 

408
00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:42,760
you think we can use to talk 
much more effectively? 

409
00:19:43,360 --> 00:19:45,560
Yeah, we could also consider a 
couple of more. 

410
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,720
One example is I called 
listicles. 

411
00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:49,480
Essentially you make a list of 
things. 

412
00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,920
If somebody asks you a question,
what is holding us back? 

413
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,280
What's the challenge? 
Right now? 

414
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,640
You can simply say there is 
number one challenge is this. 

415
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:59,440
Today we are going through this 
challenge. 

416
00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:00,640
This is the number one 
challenge. 

417
00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,160
If we address this, we can move 
forward easily. 

418
00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:05,960
Or you can say there are two 
major challenges here, number 

419
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,200
one and number two or three 
major challenges #1 #2 and #3. 

420
00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,240
Typically, I don't recommend 
more than three because we love 

421
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:15,480
123. 
Anything beyond is difficult to 

422
00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,040
remember. 
This way you what happens is 

423
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,960
Henry, the moment you say I have
3 things to say, your listener 

424
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:24,160
is most likely to listen. 
OK, what's happening now? 

425
00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:27,680
I've got one and two and three. 
They will listen to you. 

426
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,000
They'll remember these three 
things as opposed to you 

427
00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,200
randomly saying 4 paragraphs or 
three paragraphs. 

428
00:20:32,680 --> 00:20:35,280
So you already give them a heads
up that I'm going to share with 

429
00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,400
you three things and it'll come 
to you right now. 

430
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:40,720
So that's really one structure I
strongly recommend called 

431
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:43,600
listical structure. 
The second one is a common 

432
00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,240
consulting model from McKenzie 
and other consulting companies 

433
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,440
called situation complication 
and resolution. 

434
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:51,840
So here is a situation right now
we are in. 

435
00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,200
You can explain what's happening
right now, then you can explain 

436
00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:57,800
the complication in that 
situation. 

437
00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:00,520
What is complex about this, What
is difficult, what is most 

438
00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,760
challenging is the complication.
And then you can go to the 

439
00:21:03,760 --> 00:21:06,280
resolution. 
Now knowing the situation, 

440
00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,600
knowing the complication, you 
tell me either a solution, a 

441
00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,880
possible solution, or your 
recommendations to solve this 

442
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:15,200
challenge. 
So you explain the situation and

443
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:17,080
the complication and the 
resolution. 

444
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,160
Now there is high chances that 
people who are listening to you 

445
00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:23,840
will remember what you said 
because there is a coherent 

446
00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:25,400
thread across these three 
things. 

447
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,760
There is a story, the situation 
you are explaining, your mind is

448
00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,840
able to connect. 
Now you are telling the most 

449
00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:35,000
important challenge to tackle 
and then you are showing me two 

450
00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:36,640
or three ways to solve this 
talent. 

451
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,360
And what's your strong 
recommendation as an engineer on

452
00:21:39,360 --> 00:21:41,880
the team? 
You mentioned something that 

453
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,240
people always mention about 
speaking, right? 

454
00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:46,480
It's about story storytelling, 
right? 

455
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:48,960
And I think the coherence is 1 
aspect of, you know why 

456
00:21:48,960 --> 00:21:50,560
storytelling is very powerful, 
right? 

457
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,440
Even though you are talking 
about facts and nonfiction 

458
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,280
stuff, right? 
So I think storytelling is 

459
00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:59,320
definitely one aspect that we 
always need to remember, right? 

460
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,360
The other one that you mentioned
is about listening, right? 

461
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,360
For me at least, sometimes it's 
like we are guilty of not 

462
00:22:05,360 --> 00:22:07,280
listening. 
Sometimes when people speak, we 

463
00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,640
even like come up with some 
potential answers in our mind 

464
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:12,920
rather than listening very 
attentively. 

465
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:17,040
So for engineers here, how can 
we improve ourselves in terms of

466
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,120
listening? 
Because this again doesn't come 

467
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:21,600
intuitively. 
Sometimes we want to gather 

468
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,560
facts and reply the question as 
soon as possible. 

469
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:27,680
So maybe some tips here as well 
that we can do in order to 

470
00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,640
effectively listen to other 
people. 

471
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:35,400
In my experience I've seen 2 
distractions. 1 is external 

472
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,280
distraction, like there is a 
phone in front of you while 

473
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:40,800
you're listening, there is a 
laptop open, there are 16 

474
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,880
browser windows open, tabs open.
They will disturb you. 

475
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,520
I recommend if you are in a one 
to one conversation or in a 

476
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,720
group meeting as much as 
possible reduce distraction 

477
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:53,920
which are external distractions 
like phone, media and other 

478
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:55,840
things. 
The other one is internal 

479
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:58,200
distraction. 
We are wired to think when 

480
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,440
somebody is talking. 
We are always preparing the 

481
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,080
answer. 
We are preparing our response to

482
00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:07,440
that person. 
This will require some practice.

483
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,000
It's not easy, I understand, but
it's not difficult as well. 

484
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,160
You need to start practicing. 
I will listen to this person 

485
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,200
because sometimes you will 
realize if you listen to a 

486
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,280
person for two minutes, you will
realize in 2 minutes there is a 

487
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:22,720
common theme. 
You will hear the emotion. 

488
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,840
Either they're frustrated, 
they're angry, they're upset. 

489
00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,280
You will see that they're 
repeating the same point 

490
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,840
multiple times. 
There's a thematic version in 

491
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:33,160
their structure, but you will 
realize it only after you listen

492
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,800
for two minutes. 
Now my #1 tip for people is in 

493
00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:39,080
the next one-on-one meeting, 
whether with your manager or a 

494
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:42,400
peer or a cross functional 
partner, set a timer for 2 

495
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:46,000
minutes and say today I will 
listen to this person and make 

496
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:47,120
notes. 
If you really have to say 

497
00:23:47,120 --> 00:23:50,000
something, wanted to make notes 
and say OK, this was important, 

498
00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,600
this topic was important, but do
not interrupt for two minutes. 

499
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:56,240
This one skill can take you to a
whole new level of listening. 

500
00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,920
In fact, I did this with one of 
the clients two weeks ago. 

501
00:24:00,120 --> 00:24:03,200
He tried with his team. 
They are not surprised. 

502
00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,280
Like, why are you not talking? 
Why are you not interrupting me?

503
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,040
What's happening with you? 
Am I not making sense? 

504
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,840
Then he had to tell them in a 
group meeting that I'm going to 

505
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:13,960
be a better listener. 
Now I'm practicing some things. 

506
00:24:14,360 --> 00:24:17,800
So when I'm quietly listening, 
I'm actually listening to you 

507
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,200
and making notes. 
He had a significant improvement

508
00:24:21,200 --> 00:24:23,560
in just three weeks by making 
these things small things, 

509
00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:27,560
changes in team meetings and 
one-on-one discussions to listen

510
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:30,200
to people for a couple of 
minutes, make notes and see 

511
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:32,560
what's the best response after 
he made notes. 

512
00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,240
Wow, I think that's also 
something that we all can try, 

513
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:38,040
right? 
Try to just listen 2 minutes 

514
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:40,360
without replying, right? 
And maybe taking notes if you 

515
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:43,400
don't want to forget. 
Because sometimes when you first

516
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,720
practice it right, it doesn't 
come intuitively right. 

517
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,560
Sometimes you forget what other 
people said in the two minutes. 

518
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,160
Please try to do that. 
The other thing that I find 

519
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,600
really important is that 
actually your expression, right?

520
00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,320
When people speak, right? 
Look at their eyes, you know, 

521
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,640
smile, nodding or even say, uh, 
yeah. 

522
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:03,840
And at the end also try to 
repeat what the other people is 

523
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:05,880
saying, right? 
So I think that's also some tips

524
00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:07,960
that I learned throughout my 
career, right? 

525
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:10,920
So definitely listening is very,
very important, especially you 

526
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,600
become a leader, right? 
Because leader is not there just

527
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,720
to solve problems, but also to 
listen to others and making sure

528
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,480
we can grow other people as 
well. 

529
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:21,560
So the other aspect that you 
mentioned about the leadership 

530
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,800
growth, something that you learn
from Doctor Marshall Godsmith, 

531
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:27,680
by the way, Congrats for, you 
know, having him writing the 

532
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,200
forward of the book. 
So you mentioned about this ABC 

533
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:31,880
framework. 
I'm quite intrigued to learn 

534
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,640
more. 
What is this ABC framework? 

535
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:35,360
Maybe if you can teach us here 
as well. 

536
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:37,840
Yeah. 
So this is ABC framework, which 

537
00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:39,840
is something I simplified from 
my experience. 

538
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,960
I have been reading his 
materials since 2007. 

539
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,720
I went to his live workshop when
I was in India. 

540
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,000
I did several certifications 
from his organization which is 

541
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,680
called SEC Coaching, Stakeholder
Centered Coaching. 

542
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,480
I model this ABC for simplifying
the people. 

543
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,200
So one is called awareness. 
In the first step, we look at 2 

544
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,960
areas of awareness. 1 is what do
you think about yourself? 

545
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:04,760
Let's say you are my client 
Henry. 

546
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,600
The first question we asked 
together is what do you think 

547
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,680
about yourself in the sense what
are your strengths? 

548
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:13,120
What are your areas of 
improvement? 

549
00:26:13,640 --> 00:26:15,840
Which kinds of people irritate 
you? 

550
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:18,800
Why do they irritate you? 
Which kinds of people you 

551
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:20,600
partner really well with and why
is that? 

552
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,040
We go through this inventory of 
what makes you tick in an 

553
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,600
organization. 
That's one aspect of you 

554
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,360
discovering yourself through 
reflection, self reflection and 

555
00:26:30,360 --> 00:26:32,360
discussion. 
Like what are you really good 

556
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:33,800
at? 
What are your strengths? 

557
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,640
What do you enjoy doing? 
What kinds of partnerships you 

558
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:38,200
are really building well in the 
organization? 

559
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,280
That's called self-awareness. 
The other side of that coin is 

560
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:45,640
the other people's awareness. 
What do other people think about

561
00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:47,760
you? 
We do this through an anonymous 

562
00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,320
feedback. 
We do a survey with a few 

563
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,520
questions to understand what's 
working well with you as an 

564
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,600
individual or a manager working 
with other cross functional 

565
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,000
partners. 
And we keep it anonymous so that

566
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:01,840
people can be honest. 
Some organizations are willing 

567
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,600
to do it anonymous, some are 
not. 

568
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,160
My strong recommendation is for 
leadership growth. 

569
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,680
It is always beneficial to keep 
it anonymous because it's not 

570
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,080
performance appraisal. 
I'm not measuring your 

571
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,440
performance by this survey. 
It is purely for your leadership

572
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,440
development. 
So the more truth you hear from 

573
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,240
people, the better for you as a 
leader. 

574
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:22,520
We collect that feedback. 
Now we have got 2 pieces of 

575
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,600
information. 
One is your own self-awareness 

576
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:28,360
and now what other people think 
about you, your strengths, where

577
00:27:28,360 --> 00:27:31,120
you are really good at, what 
areas you need to improve as a 

578
00:27:31,120 --> 00:27:32,960
leader, as a part time in the 
organization. 

579
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,280
We work together and say OK, 
what's really working well with 

580
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,960
you as a leader? 
We just look at all the positive

581
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,840
things you already have. 
We also look at what is the 

582
00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,640
perception of people, like where
do they think you're not ready 

583
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,720
yet or you're not a great 
partner? 

584
00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:50,000
In my experience, most people 
jump to the second one. 

585
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,720
They ignore the strengths. 
They jump to this and say, look,

586
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,120
these things, people are not 
liking me, they're biased and so

587
00:27:56,120 --> 00:27:58,240
on. 
But we always go back and say 

588
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,520
first, let's appreciate all the 
great things they're saying and 

589
00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,960
let's see what can be improved 
because everything cannot be 

590
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,240
improved. 
It's OK to ignore some things. 

591
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,000
So we look at common themes and 
that's how we decide to improve 

592
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,920
on what one or two behaviors you
can change. 

593
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,320
Maybe they're communicating 
better, influencing more, 

594
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,360
writing better documents. 
Remember, all of these are 

595
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,640
behavioral feedback. 
We don't do 360 for technical 

596
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,280
feedback like somebody how does 
he or she code? 

597
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:30,520
How do they design systems. 
We don't do 360 for this. 

598
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:34,480
We only do this for leadership 
skills like listening behaviors,

599
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,480
feedback, handling difficult 
conversations, communicating in 

600
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,200
high stake environment. 
How do you manage emotion in 

601
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:43,680
front of a significant 
conversation? 

602
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:45,560
How are you able to manage your 
emotion? 

603
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:48,120
Those are the things we address 
in 360 feedback. 

604
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,960
Once we gather all that and 
decide two things we change, two

605
00:28:52,960 --> 00:28:56,400
things we want to change in our 
engagement, we then work with 

606
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,240
about 6:00 to 8:00 stakeholders.
I call them stakeholders. 

607
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,320
If you're working with them on a
weekly basis and they're 

608
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,280
watching you weekly either on a 
Zoom call or in one to one in 

609
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,400
person meeting, those are your 
stakeholders because they need 

610
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,040
to watch you every week and then
you consistently change your 

611
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,240
behaviors. 
For example, if your behavior is

612
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,840
listening more, interrupting 
less, asking good questions, 

613
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,640
understanding other people's 
perspective, and handle open 

614
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:26,520
conversations when there is a 
disagreement. 

615
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,880
If these are the skills you want
to improve, you start changing 

616
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,360
those behaviors every day at 
work, in every meeting. 

617
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,440
There are some techniques we use
things like a conscious reminder

618
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,360
like this. 
You know, if you see, when I, 

619
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,560
when I go to any podcast, I have
this right in front of my call, 

620
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,400
pause, breathe and smile. 
It's a conscious trigger because

621
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:50,680
we all are habitual creatures. 
We may digress, but having a 

622
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:54,080
reminder like this will tell me,
hey, you are the best version of

623
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,400
yourself today. 
You pause, you take a breath and

624
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,560
you smile in your conversations.
So these are consistent 

625
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,680
behavioral changes I help my 
clients do at work because it 

626
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,320
doesn't happen automatically. 
You might have all great 

627
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,040
intentions about becoming 
leader, but the behavior decides

628
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,360
your intention. 
You see a direction that 

629
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:15,520
actually matters, not just the 
intention. 

630
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,360
So step one is awareness. 
We discussed that. 

631
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,920
Step 2 is behavioral changes in 
meetings and in one to one 

632
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:24,520
conversations. 
Step 3 is continuous 

633
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,560
measurement. 
There are two aspects to it. 

634
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,920
One is called as a follow up 
meeting with these six 

635
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,720
stakeholders. 
We strongly recommend meeting at

636
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,200
least once a month for about 10 
minutes to ask two questions. 

637
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:39,360
Hey, you know that Henry. 
I'm changing these two 

638
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,520
behaviors. 
I want to listen well and 

639
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,600
communicate better. 
What am I doing well in the last

640
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,880
one month? 
What could I improve? 

641
00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,280
Give me some ideas. 
I ask these two questions to 

642
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,880
you. 
You are my stakeholder and I 

643
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,200
simply keep quiet for next 5 
minutes. 

644
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:58,280
You tell me. 
OK Pramoda, I'll be noticing 

645
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,560
you. 
I like that you're doing these 

646
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,760
changes. 
I make notes. 

647
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,480
Can you tell me the second 
questions answer? 

648
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:06,640
Maybe you can do these three 
things to improve better or make

649
00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,840
some changes in your style of 
communication. 

650
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:10,520
I take that. 
I thank you. 

651
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,880
No debate, no discussion, no 
argument. 

652
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,600
I simply thank you and come back
in 10 minutes. 

653
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,800
That's called follow up meeting.
It's also called Feed Forward by

654
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,560
Marshall Goldsmith, but I simply
call it as a follow up meeting. 

655
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,080
It is not a debate. 
It's simply what have you 

656
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:28,680
noticed so far in my behaviors? 
What's working well, What could 

657
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,600
I improve? 
The other aspect of continuous 

658
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,520
measurement is there is a formal
survey we do every quarter, 

659
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:37,320
sometimes every quarter, 
sometimes every six months, 

660
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:43,160
which focuses on two things. 
One aspect is how consistently I

661
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,480
am. 
If I were the 1:00 making my 

662
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,440
changes as a leader, if you are 
my stakeholder that are 8 

663
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,960
stakeholders, I would survey 
with eight stakeholders how 

664
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:55,120
consistently I am coming to you 
and meeting them every month. 

665
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:58,840
That is a key indicator. 
Follow up every month. 

666
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:04,240
So there is a deity, I think 
it's a -, 5 + 5 or -2 + 2 is the

667
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,080
range. 
So we say, OK, he's always 

668
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,560
consistently meeting me every 
month, he never shows up and so 

669
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,720
on in the scale. 
The second question is to the 

670
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,120
stakeholders. 
All right, Pramod has been doing

671
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:16,160
these changes on these two 
behaviors. 

672
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,560
Tell us the effectiveness of the
change from -2 to +2. 

673
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,000
These two questions will 
objectively measure every 

674
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,440
quarter or every six months or 
every 12 months to tell me as a 

675
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,720
leader, how is my effectiveness 
growing with my stakeholders. 

676
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:33,120
By the way, stakeholders can 
also include my team members, 

677
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,760
direct reports and skip level as
well, doesn't matter. 

678
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,000
I choose these stakeholders. 
We finish the awareness. 

679
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:41,680
We talked about behavioral 
change, we talked about 

680
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,080
continuous measurement. 1 is 
subjective 1 to one discussion 

681
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,800
every month. 
The other one is objective 

682
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,720
measurement is every three 
months or six months. 

683
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:51,720
So that completes the ABC 
framework for leadership 

684
00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:54,160
development. 
Wow, thanks for, you know, 

685
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,760
giving us this summary. 
So ABC is like awareness, 

686
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:58,840
behavioral change and continuous
measurement. 

687
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:00,800
And I think thanks for 
highlighting that stakeholders 

688
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,800
doesn't mean always your bosses,
you know, but it could be your 

689
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,680
team members, it could be people
who can give you good feedback, 

690
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,320
right, critical feedback. 
And I think there's a lot of 

691
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,840
vulnerability aspects here as 
well because you listen and you 

692
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,840
don't debate, argue about 
certain feedback from others. 

693
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:19,600
And the important thing is about
improving yourself. 

694
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:23,320
So I think this is probably a 
great thing to do with a coach 

695
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,960
having you probably, it's very 
hard to do alone. 

696
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:29,520
So definitely ABC is something 
that people can learn how to 

697
00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:31,200
improve themselves in terms of 
leadership. 

698
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,680
So Pramoda, the second part of 
our conversation, I would like 

699
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,200
to talk about your book Beyond 
Your Limits. 

700
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,640
So I think this book is quite 
inspiring, right? 

701
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:43,560
So you kind of like go through 
goal setting kind of experience,

702
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:45,840
you know, 52 goals that you 
mentioned in the book. 

703
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:48,480
Those are some are like lofty 
goals for some people. 

704
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,360
So tell us like maybe the first 
thing is about the background 

705
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:52,960
story. 
Why you come up with this book 

706
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,480
and why actually you come up 
with this long journey of goal 

707
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,440
setting? 
Yes, I will give you a short 

708
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:01,640
story. 
It's a long stay, but I'll keep 

709
00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:05,640
it short. 
In 2001, I lost my father. 

710
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,440
I reached 22 and in 2003 I lost 
my grandfather. 

711
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:11,320
Within two years I lost both of 
them. 

712
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,800
At that time I had a good job, 
great salary, life was great. 

713
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,880
I was single. 
One thing I lost was there was 

714
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,120
not much meaning in my life. 
You know, life seemed like a 

715
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,560
trend and everybody around me 
were just focused on making more

716
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,440
money, promotion and so on. 
I suppose did not like it. 

717
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:29,920
I was always looking for more 
meaning in my life. 

718
00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,480
After two deaths in the family 
within two years, I was looking 

719
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:36,440
for meaning. 
My focus was mostly on seeking 

720
00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,360
knowledge either through 
spirituality or through sensor 

721
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,520
books. 
Back then 2003 I'm talking about

722
00:34:42,199 --> 00:34:45,239
I kept reading so many books on 
self help and personal 

723
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:48,480
development. 
I took some courses and you 

724
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,199
know, they were helping me to 
feel good, but I wasn't changing

725
00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,600
anything in my life. 
There was no consistent action I

726
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:58,040
was taking in my life back then.
I was obese and old weight. 

727
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,960
You cannot believe I was 90 
kilos back then, about 92 kilos 

728
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,760
in 2003. 
At that time I was thinking if 

729
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,360
only I can learn time management
skill, my life can change. 

730
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,200
For this was October 2003. 
I went to a training at time 

731
00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,080
management training at Oracle. 
Oracle was a great company, so 

732
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:17,360
many training. 
I signed up. 

733
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,680
I went there. 
It was a full day training from 

734
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,960
9:00 to 5:00. 
During the training, the trainer

735
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:25,400
talked about a person named John
Goddard. 

736
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:29,240
John Goddard lived in the US. 
He's called the greatest 

737
00:35:29,240 --> 00:35:34,040
adventurer of the world. 
At age 14, he listed about 127 

738
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,400
goals. 
Goals like climbing the Mount 

739
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,680
Everest, climbing Mount 
Kilimanjaro, crossing the Nile 

740
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:43,960
River on a kayak and learning 5 
languages, reading scriptures 

741
00:35:43,960 --> 00:35:45,640
and so on. 
Amazing goals, he wrote. 

742
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:49,200
And by the age 80, he had 
achieved all of those goals 

743
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,640
except one or two. 
When I heard the story at age 

744
00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,200
24, I was just 24. 
Back then, I said this is 

745
00:35:56,200 --> 00:35:59,880
phenomenal. 
Until then I thought how do I 

746
00:35:59,880 --> 00:36:02,200
find meaning in my life? 
I was asking question what is 

747
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,680
the meaning to life? 
What is so funny is I realized I

748
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:07,640
was the one to answer that 
question. 

749
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:09,800
I cannot ask that question to 
life. 

750
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:13,000
What's the meaning to life? 
The life is asking the question 

751
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,800
to me and I can answer that 
question by my lifestyle, by the

752
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:20,200
action I take, by the goals I 
achieve in my life. 

753
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:22,800
That was a significant turning 
point in my life. 

754
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,240
I went home that day. 
I listed five goals to begin 

755
00:36:26,240 --> 00:36:27,640
with. 
Five simple goals. 

756
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:30,360
You will not believe the kind of
simplicity in those five goals. 

757
00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:34,720
I wanted to lose about £35. 
That became my goal. 

758
00:36:35,240 --> 00:36:38,920
I was scared of public speaking.
I wrote a goal to become a 

759
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:42,560
confident public speaker. 
The third goal was I was scared 

760
00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:44,600
of water. 
I wanted to learn swimming. 

761
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,920
I joined the course back then. 
The fourth goal was as a kid, I 

762
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,600
was, I'm a fan of Bruce Lee and 
Jackie Chan, but I never learned

763
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,600
martial art. 
So my goal #4 was learning a 

764
00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,120
martial arts for three to four 
years to achieve a shoe belts. 

765
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,120
So I wrote that as a goal. 
And goal #5 back then was 

766
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,960
donating blood 50 times before 
turning age 50 because my family

767
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:11,040
needed some emergency blood 
transfusions back then. 

768
00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:12,960
So I knew the value of blood 
donation. 

769
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,160
I wanted to ensure it became a 
goal I could pursue over a long 

770
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:18,800
time. 
So I added those five goals as a

771
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,640
starting point and after that my
whole life became a goal 

772
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,680
oriented life. 
In fact, in the book I talk 

773
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,240
about my 52nd goal, that is to 
publish a book. 

774
00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:33,640
So the book actually compiles 
all of my goals from 2003 to 

775
00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:38,320
2024 in a nicely packaged book, 
with the last goal becoming the 

776
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,400
book itself. 
Wow, very inspiring, right? 

777
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,240
So you just took like 2 years to
achieve those 52 goals. 

778
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,480
I think that's kind of like 
inspiring for people. 

779
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,560
I would recommend people if you 
are looking for motivation, 

780
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:52,240
right? 
Because sometimes when we set 

781
00:37:52,240 --> 00:37:55,360
goals, almost everybody set 
goals in the beginning of the 

782
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,160
year and we are coming into it 
soon. 

783
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,160
But somehow they kind of like 
drifted and kind of like 

784
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,320
withdraw from the goals itself, 
right? 

785
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,000
Maybe sometimes they pick 
something that is too difficult 

786
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,960
or sometimes life happens and 
they just forget about the 

787
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,440
goals. 
So maybe 52 goals. 

788
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,480
These are a lot, right? 
And some are like really, really

789
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:14,160
hard for people. 
Even though you mentioned in 

790
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,720
beginning like weight loss and 
all that seems easy and seems 

791
00:38:17,720 --> 00:38:19,640
simple. 
But for some it's like maybe 

792
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,120
never ending, kind of like 
battle, you know, with those 

793
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,120
goals. 
What are maybe some of the 

794
00:38:24,720 --> 00:38:28,240
unintuitive thing that you maybe
learn from this two year's 

795
00:38:28,240 --> 00:38:30,480
journey? 
Setting goals and meeting them 

796
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,520
one by one, right? 
So maybe if there's something 

797
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:36,120
that you find as a new self 
inspiration or something like 

798
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,080
that, you can share. 
One clarification, I achieved 

799
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,640
those five goals in the first 
two years, but in the remaining 

800
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:44,360
years I achieved many other 
goals. 

801
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,600
So just to be clear, it's a long
journey from 2003 to 2020, four 

802
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,640
21 year goal journey and I still
have many goals and I achieved 

803
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:53,800
on my list. 
They are being pursued at this 

804
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,360
point. 
One thing I've realized Henry is

805
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,000
over my own journey, a lot of 
people talk about motivation. 

806
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:03,280
I have learned that motivation 
is a state of mind. 

807
00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,160
It is not something outside you,
it is always inside you. 

808
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,920
What happens is you set the goal
today and you are excited and 

809
00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,160
pumped up. 
You are excited about your goal 

810
00:39:12,160 --> 00:39:13,560
and the actions you are going to
take. 

811
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,480
In three weeks you will fizzle 
out. 

812
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,640
The motivation tanks. 
It goes at the bottom. 

813
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,760
People think it is on external. 
I also thought initially it's on

814
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,440
external. 
Like OK, I'm not getting results

815
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,360
so I'm feeling bad. 
The unintuitive learning in the 

816
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,360
journey, Henry has been my own 
thoughts. 

817
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:35,160
I'm a creature of thoughts. 
I'm constantly thinking and 

818
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,560
these thoughts are triggering 
feelings and moods in me and 

819
00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,360
those me and those moods and 
feelings are influencing my 

820
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,240
behaviors. 
It's always thoughts become 

821
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,920
feelings, feelings drive your 
action or behaviors. 

822
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,280
This is the best learning in my 
journey. 

823
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,440
I realized motivation is not 
fleeting. 

824
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:56,560
Motivation is with me, my own 
thoughts, the mere awareness. 

825
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:58,680
I'm not asking you to change 
thoughts or challenge your 

826
00:39:58,680 --> 00:39:59,600
thoughts. 
Nothing. 

827
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:04,720
Simply being aware that I am 
feeling bad today because I have

828
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:09,160
bad thoughts or unhelpful 
thoughts is a real freedom. 

829
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:12,120
If you can get to that point to 
realize that Oh my God, today 

830
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,840
I'm thinking this and hence I'm 
feeling rushed, hence I'm 

831
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,000
feeling scared. 
That is a great liberation if 

832
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:21,840
you can go to that level. 
And I'm glad I learned that 

833
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,160
early in my journey in goal 
setting, that my own state of 

834
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,720
mind influences the choices I 
make at every moment of my life.

835
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:31,240
That's the best learning in the 
last 21 years. 

836
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:33,960
Well, that's really powerful, 
right? 

837
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:37,040
I, I kind of like remember this 
quote, all men suffering comes 

838
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,120
from their own thoughts, right? 
So I think again, like what you 

839
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:42,200
mentioned, thoughts is really 
powerful, right? 

840
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:46,200
Sometimes we all think external 
factor, maybe like simply they 

841
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:48,760
think they couldn't achieve the 
goal because they are not 

842
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,440
capable of doing it. 
But I think by simply changing 

843
00:40:51,440 --> 00:40:54,160
the thoughts, I mean, I said 
simply, but it's not so simple 

844
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,800
by by changing your thoughts, 
actually you can actually kind 

845
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:00,560
of like create more possible. 
I think the first thing is about

846
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,840
possibilities, right? 
And obviously after changing, I 

847
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,320
thought you need to take actions
and you know, create the habits 

848
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:09,040
and all that and not to get this
happened if you don't meet some 

849
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:11,720
of the milestones of the goals. 
I think that's really important.

850
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,800
In your book, you also mentioned
a few things that kind of like 

851
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,080
sabotage our goal achievement. 
You mentioned about purpose, you

852
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,480
mentioned about time and you 
mentioned about belief. 

853
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,880
So I can relate to those 
saboteurs, you know, in my goal 

854
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,840
setting as well. 
So maybe share with us like how 

855
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,960
can we actually deal effectively
with these kind of saboteurs in 

856
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,880
our goal setting? 
Let's start with number one 

857
00:41:35,240 --> 00:41:37,040
people. 
Usually when I work with people,

858
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,080
I ask them what are your 
intrinsic goals? 

859
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:40,520
What do you really want to 
achieve in your life? 

860
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,240
Not career because career is 1 
dimension of your life. 

861
00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:44,960
There are so many other domains 
of your life. 

862
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:50,400
When ask people, people don't 
have clear goals, they say I 

863
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:54,960
don't know my purpose in life. 
This is actually because there 

864
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:57,200
is no single purpose to life. 
It's difficult. 

865
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:00,000
It's difficult to be that clear 
and say this is my purpose 

866
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,320
because things change. 
You grow as an individual, your 

867
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,960
your choices change, your 
experiences make you different. 

868
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:10,120
And my recommendation to people,
you can have multiple purposes 

869
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,080
in your life, not just one. 
You can have so many life 

870
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,440
purposes. 
Why do you want to stick to 1? 

871
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,000
You can pursue multiple and see 
what is really good for you. 

872
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,720
Some can be small, some can be 
big, some can be long term, some

873
00:42:22,720 --> 00:42:25,920
can be short term. 
By just shifting this mindset 

874
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:27,720
that it is not life's one big 
purpose. 

875
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,840
Otherwise you will waste several
months or years to find that 

876
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,720
purpose. 
And when you find it, you 

877
00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:35,320
realize that you don't like that
anymore, You like something else

878
00:42:35,760 --> 00:42:37,480
instead. 
What do you really enjoy? 

879
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:40,240
What are your values if you come
back to that? 

880
00:42:40,240 --> 00:42:43,160
If your value is fitness, If 
your value is kindness, If your 

881
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,360
value is discipline. 
Life embodied those values every

882
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,000
day. 
If you can bring those values to

883
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,640
life every day, you are always 
happy. 

884
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,800
You're enjoying your life 
because you are living your 

885
00:42:53,800 --> 00:42:57,680
values, your virtues in action. 
That's how we address purpose 

886
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,040
issue. 
The second one is sometimes when

887
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,480
say people say I don't have 
time, what I do with people is 

888
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,440
we audit together how they are 
spending their time every day, 

889
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:09,440
When do they wake up, how many 
times they check their phone, 

890
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,680
how many hours on their phone, 
various apps. 

891
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,120
We check that because sometimes 
people are not accountable to 

892
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,520
themselves. 
They may keep ignoring their 

893
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,320
habits of checking their phone 
or social media, but when they 

894
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,040
are working with the coach there
is more accountability. 

895
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:26,080
You look at what's happening 
objectively and see where you 

896
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:29,480
can get more time. 
Even 20 minutes a day can be 

897
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,240
life changing. 20 minutes of 
personal development every day 

898
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:35,920
on health, fitness, maybe 
sleeping better, being kind to 

899
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,640
your family, writing something 
on the Internet, creating 

900
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:42,280
something on the side, anything 
can be possible in 20 minutes a 

901
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,920
day. 
We come back and say how do we 

902
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,080
look at small blocks of time to 
create something meaningful over

903
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:52,280
a period of time. 
The other thing I explained to 

904
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:55,560
my clients in this aspect is 
there are two words. 

905
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,040
There are two words to describe 
how you approach your day. 

906
00:43:59,720 --> 00:44:03,240
You can be creative or you can 
be reactive. 

907
00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:08,120
They are anagrams of each other,
the same 8 letters, but one is 

908
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:10,240
you are creative. 
You are creating your routine 

909
00:44:10,240 --> 00:44:11,840
because you want to achieve 
something today. 

910
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:14,000
The other one is you are 
reactive. 

911
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,720
Everything around the world is 
making you react to things. 

912
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:19,720
This is a big mind shift. 
When they learn about this, OK, 

913
00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:23,840
they can create the first 3 
hours of their day as sacred so 

914
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:25,640
that nobody else can inhale that
time. 

915
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,160
Do something creative, 
productive before they do 

916
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,640
something reactive. 
That is how we address the time 

917
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,280
management issue. 
And the last one is belief. 

918
00:44:33,720 --> 00:44:36,000
I touched upon this earlier in 
my own journey. 

919
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:41,440
Beliefs are like think of this 
as a giant cable, a giant cable.

920
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:43,720
If you have visited San 
Francisco Golden Gate Bridge, 

921
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:48,160
that is a giant cable. 
And that cable is made of maybe 

922
00:44:48,160 --> 00:44:50,360
thousands of wires, small wires,
tiny wires. 

923
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:55,000
Our beliefs are like a cable and
individual wires are daily 

924
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,680
thoughts. 
The more thoughts you have about

925
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,360
something, you believe that that
is true for you as a person, as 

926
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,680
an individual, or about this 
world or other people. 

927
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:05,960
So we start questioning their 
beliefs about why do you believe

928
00:45:05,960 --> 00:45:07,320
that this is not something you 
can do? 

929
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,360
Whether it is public speaking or
writing a good document, writing

930
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:13,520
your own newspaper, becoming a 
little more confident and 

931
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:15,800
showing yourself fully in the 
world. 

932
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,720
We discuss the beliefs that what
do you think? 

933
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,160
And most of the time they are 
childhood beliefs. 

934
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,040
Maybe they tried something in 
their childhood, they failed as 

935
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,160
a public speaker. 
It did not work out for them. 

936
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,800
That has influenced how they 
think about themselves and many 

937
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,760
other situations. 
Maybe they did not have a good 

938
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,760
work culture, maybe not a good 
organization, maybe not a good 

939
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,960
manager in the organization. 
We don't know what 1 experience 

940
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:39,800
they take. 
They generalize their whole 

941
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,800
life. 
I'm not good at people, I'm not 

942
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,640
good with conflicts, I'm not 
good with writing documents. 

943
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,160
So all these opinions they have 
about themselves, we start 

944
00:45:50,160 --> 00:45:53,280
questioning and peel them out. 
And the book also talks about a 

945
00:45:53,280 --> 00:45:56,520
lot of ways you can unpeel those
and say, OK, what's happening 

946
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:58,400
here? 
Why do you have those beliefs? 

947
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,880
When you reflect on your past 
and say, how did I come to this 

948
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,200
conclusion? 
You may get a higher level of 

949
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:06,800
awareness. 
And then you realize I may be 

950
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:09,240
wrong. 
These are not the real me. 

951
00:46:09,240 --> 00:46:12,840
The real me is something else. 
Now we address the purpose. 

952
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:16,400
We address the time as well as 
the beliefs. 

953
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:18,160
In the book. 
I give some insights. 

954
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:20,040
That is good enough for the 
starting point. 

955
00:46:20,360 --> 00:46:23,160
But I also have a seven week 
course, by the way, on the same 

956
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:26,440
concept, Beyond Your Limits. 
And I also want to own coaching.

957
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,160
Based on some of the ideas here,
people can go a little deeper 

958
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:33,600
with me as a guide and the 
practitioner working with them. 

959
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,400
I think thanks for sharing these
kind of like 3 different 

960
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:39,400
saboteurs. 
I think everyone, I would say 

961
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,720
everyone would be able to relate
with this right? 

962
00:46:41,720 --> 00:46:46,080
Sometimes like we doesn't find 
meaning in our life or purpose, 

963
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,320
right? 
Some people call it right or 

964
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:49,840
maybe some also categorize that 
as a passion. 

965
00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,200
Like what is your passion? 
Sometimes we couldn't even 

966
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:54,600
answer that. 
So I think finding the purpose 

967
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,960
definitely important. 
And maybe what you mentioned is 

968
00:46:56,960 --> 00:46:59,120
like purposes. 
It's not just like one purpose, 

969
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,640
one giant purpose that you 
pursue, but it could be multiple

970
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:05,080
purposes in multiple aspects of 
your life, right? 

971
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:07,960
Don't forget like you have work,
you have maybe family, you have 

972
00:47:07,960 --> 00:47:10,400
personal development, maybe your
spirituality as well. 

973
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,840
So I think purpose is definitely
important. 

974
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:15,400
Like also the part where you 
mentioned creative versus 

975
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,880
reactive, I just realized that 
they are kind of like the same 

976
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,480
words but different way. 
So I think sometimes, yeah, we 

977
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:24,280
all get reactive in life. 
You know, whatever happens, 

978
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:27,240
somebody asks us about something
and we just follow them rather 

979
00:47:27,240 --> 00:47:30,760
than taking the initiative to do
creative stuff that we like. 

980
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:34,040
So coming back to the purpose, 
maybe we take time to actually 

981
00:47:34,320 --> 00:47:36,800
do those things rather than 
being reactive to others. 

982
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,080
And I like the belief like 
always mention in any kind of a 

983
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,720
self help book as well. 
So their belief is actually the 

984
00:47:42,720 --> 00:47:45,720
most important thing, right? 
And sometimes in many parts, 

985
00:47:45,920 --> 00:47:49,240
childhood belief, self limiting 
belief comes from bad experience

986
00:47:49,240 --> 00:47:52,400
in the past, right? 
So I think unpeeling that, maybe

987
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,440
getting help by somebody to 
actually know about those things

988
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:59,320
will be very important. 
So you mentioned about the seven

989
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:01,920
step framework that you cover in
one of your course. 

990
00:48:01,920 --> 00:48:04,480
Maybe if you can give a little 
bit of highlights for people to 

991
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:07,840
kind of like understand what are
these seven steps and maybe if 

992
00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,000
they like it, they maybe would 
like to sign up to your course 

993
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:12,760
as well. 
So maybe what are those seven 

994
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,600
steps? 
Yeah, absolutely. 

995
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,160
All these seven steps, they came
from my own experience in 21 

996
00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,200
years of goal achievement. 
And I am a fan of self help 

997
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,600
books and relation development. 
I keep reading so many books. 

998
00:48:24,160 --> 00:48:26,280
All of these came from my 
experience and the combination 

999
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:27,680
of research from various 
authors. 

1000
00:48:28,080 --> 00:48:30,880
The first step in the seventh 
step framework is begin with the

1001
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:33,800
end in mind. 
You can consider these as seven 

1002
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:37,280
mental models or seven layers, 
not necessarily steps, because 

1003
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:39,680
some steps you are already 
greeted, sometimes you are not. 

1004
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,200
So think of this as a level for 
your goal setting. 

1005
00:48:42,720 --> 00:48:46,920
Begin with the end in mind, that
is #1 which is you get clarity 

1006
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,200
on what you want to achieve. 
Second one is become accountable

1007
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,800
because without accountability, 
I don't think we will achieve 

1008
00:48:53,800 --> 00:48:56,560
our intrinsic goals. 
For extrinsic goals, you will 

1009
00:48:56,560 --> 00:48:58,880
have your manager coming after 
you and saying OK, what's 

1010
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,160
happening with this project, but
intrinsic goals, you are the one

1011
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,680
who cares about it. 
That's why accountability from a

1012
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,520
coach or a mentor or a family 
member is critical to make 

1013
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,200
progress on your intrinsic 
goals. 

1014
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:15,360
Step #3 is define milestones. 
A lot of personal development 

1015
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:18,960
goals, people drift away and 
stop pursuing just because they 

1016
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,040
don't have clear milestones. 
We all overestimate what we can 

1017
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:26,560
achieve in one year and we 
underestimate what we can 

1018
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,720
achieve in five years. 
This is extremely critical for 

1019
00:49:29,720 --> 00:49:32,000
people to understand. 
If you can understand in the 

1020
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:35,400
next 5 years you can achieve 
great things and then define 

1021
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,280
smaller milestones, you will 
definitely achieve your goals as

1022
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,000
opposed to stretching everything
in 12 months and achieving more 

1023
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,280
in 12 months. 
Especially with personal goals. 

1024
00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:49,000
4th step is taking one day at a 
time because each day you have 

1025
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,680
to create your routine, ritual 
routines and habits so that you 

1026
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:56,920
can execute on your goals. 
That's fourth step. 5th step is 

1027
00:49:57,600 --> 00:49:59,360
bounce back. 
When there is a set back, 

1028
00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:01,400
there's invariably there are 
setbacks. 

1029
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:03,640
You are pursuing the goal, 
something happens, you have to 

1030
00:50:03,640 --> 00:50:07,360
come back and start again. 
But you plan it earlier and say 

1031
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:10,400
OK, I might step back. 
I'm travelling next month, I may

1032
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:12,440
step off my workout routine, but
how do I come back? 

1033
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,240
How do I bounce back? 
That is step #5 Step number six 

1034
00:50:16,240 --> 00:50:20,160
is quitting strategically. 
There are some goals are not 

1035
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:22,760
worth pursuing because they 
aren't aligned. 

1036
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,680
It is not the right time. 
You've got other priorities and 

1037
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,840
there are conflicting goals. 
So you have to be mindful about 

1038
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,600
conflicting goals and always say
goodbye to some goals may not be

1039
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:34,800
the right time. 
You may come back later. 

1040
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,600
So happily, you can say goodbye 
to some goals. 

1041
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,760
That is the level #6 which is 
quit strategically. 

1042
00:50:41,320 --> 00:50:44,680
Number 7 and the most critical 
one is enjoy the journey. 

1043
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,320
It's not the destination. 
You have to enjoy the process 

1044
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:50,120
every day of climbing the 
mountain. 

1045
00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,960
The summit is not your goal. 
The experience of climbing is 

1046
00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:55,880
actually your goal. 
You become better. 

1047
00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,320
You become a better person, 
better individual. 

1048
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:01,080
You grow in all dimensions of 
your personality. 

1049
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:05,400
So I think definitely you 
mentioned one aspect that I like

1050
00:51:05,400 --> 00:51:07,400
to cover, right? 
So you mentioned sometimes 

1051
00:51:07,480 --> 00:51:10,000
intrinsic goal is kind of like 
more difficult. 

1052
00:51:10,120 --> 00:51:11,880
I mean, we all have external 
goals, right? 

1053
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,800
Be it in our work, be it maybe 
with your family and 

1054
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,360
responsibilities and things like
that. 

1055
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,400
But sometimes the intrinsic what
definitely is more difficult. 

1056
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,000
Take for example, you know, 
losing weight or doing more 

1057
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,320
exercise or sleep more. 
I think these are some of the 

1058
00:51:25,320 --> 00:51:27,640
challenges that people are 
struggling with at the moment. 

1059
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,080
You mentioned something about 
creating milestones and habit as

1060
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:32,520
well. 
So maybe I want to cover a 

1061
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:34,520
little bit. 
How do you actually effectively 

1062
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,760
come up with the milestones? 
Because sometimes milestone, if 

1063
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:38,800
it's too easy, maybe it's not 
meaningful. 

1064
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:42,280
Some people think if it's too 
big, also sometimes very 

1065
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,680
difficult to achieve. 
And because of that, people kind

1066
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,800
of like lose motivation. 
So how do you actually create 

1067
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,280
these milestones and habits for 
us to actually achieve the 

1068
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:53,160
goals? 
See, we all have our own way of 

1069
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:56,240
dealing with commitments. 
We have to be aware of how do we

1070
00:51:56,240 --> 00:51:59,680
respond to internal commitments.
There are external commitments 

1071
00:51:59,800 --> 00:52:03,160
and internal commitments. 
Most of us are great at external

1072
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:06,280
commitments because we know 
there are impact of not doing 

1073
00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:07,480
it. 
There are consequences. 

1074
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:11,480
But for internal commitments, we
have to find smartly what's the 

1075
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,400
best way. 
For example, you could join the 

1076
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,760
community of people who are 
losing weight or running a 

1077
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,200
marathon together. 
Most likely if we join a 

1078
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,040
community, you will join them 
every weekend for a long run. 

1079
00:52:21,520 --> 00:52:24,120
So for many of my clients, this 
trick works because they are not

1080
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,080
accountable to a community. 
There is energy in the 

1081
00:52:26,080 --> 00:52:28,440
community. 
It's called goal contagion. 

1082
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,240
It is a psychological word 
called goal contagion. 

1083
00:52:31,480 --> 00:52:34,360
It's like contagious. 
So the moment you're part of a 

1084
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:37,960
group, you tend to follow them 
because you don't want to upset 

1085
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:39,320
them. 
You don't want to feel 

1086
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:42,000
disrespected because OK, 
everybody else is doing. 

1087
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:43,640
But I am not committed to my 
team. 

1088
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,760
So if you are somebody who needs
that, join the community or the 

1089
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:49,280
other option is you work with 
the coach. 

1090
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,840
Because sometimes when you work 
with the coach for three or six 

1091
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:54,280
months, there are some great 
habits you can develop. 

1092
00:52:54,280 --> 00:52:56,600
But there it is nutritional 
coach or fitness coach or 

1093
00:52:56,600 --> 00:52:58,520
running coach or weight loss 
coach. 

1094
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:00,920
There is a lot of options 
available these days. 

1095
00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:05,520
Take advantage of that coaching 
aspect to hire somebody, pay 

1096
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,360
them and you know, be 
accountable to the change. 

1097
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,640
And lastly, I would say you have
to come back to this thought 

1098
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,480
awareness. 
Think of this, how is that some 

1099
00:53:13,480 --> 00:53:16,960
days I am motivated and you are 
motivated and some days you are 

1100
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:18,440
not motivated. 
What's happening? 

1101
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:21,240
It's the same Henry, it's the 
same promoter. 

1102
00:53:21,240 --> 00:53:24,200
Everything else is the same. 
The world is the same but my 

1103
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,800
state of mind is not the same 
day by day. 

1104
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,600
And the more awareness you bring
to this mindset and say what am 

1105
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,160
I thinking today? 
How am I feeling? 

1106
00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:36,080
You will get more clarity on why
do you ignore workouts on some 

1107
00:53:36,080 --> 00:53:38,960
days and you would realize that 
it's all your thought based 

1108
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:40,440
reality. 
You are reacting to your 

1109
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:43,520
thoughts and hence you're 
feeling some way and hence 

1110
00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:46,720
you're making some choices. 
I gave you some tips but I would

1111
00:53:46,720 --> 00:53:49,720
say find a coach who can help 
you any area of your life, 

1112
00:53:49,720 --> 00:53:53,400
fitness, nutrition, health. 
I don't think people need 

1113
00:53:53,400 --> 00:53:56,440
technology coaches these days. 
They need something else these 

1114
00:53:56,440 --> 00:53:57,720
days. 
It's our technology. 

1115
00:53:58,600 --> 00:53:59,960
I hope that answered your 
question. 

1116
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:02,880
Yep. 
So definitely, so accountability

1117
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:04,560
definitely very, very powerful, 
right. 

1118
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,560
If kind of like you find it 
difficult to find self 

1119
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,280
motivation, accountability, I 
think I would also suggest right

1120
00:54:10,280 --> 00:54:12,720
for people, be it you know, with
your family members, friends, 

1121
00:54:12,720 --> 00:54:15,560
close friends or it could be you
know, community or other things 

1122
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,320
that are more public, right. 
So I think accountability 

1123
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,760
sometimes, yeah, like what you 
mentioned, right, If we are part

1124
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,800
of a group or we are accountable
to other people, we tend to 

1125
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,520
follow along and kind of like 
meet those commitments. 

1126
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,880
So thanks for sharing that maybe
I know that this is difficult. 

1127
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:34,200
Apart out of those 52 goals that
you mentioned, what do you think

1128
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:36,200
are your biggest achievements in
those goals? 

1129
00:54:37,680 --> 00:54:40,480
Yeah, if you personally ask me, 
everything is a big achievement 

1130
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,560
because there were so many 
limits I had met myself and all 

1131
00:54:44,560 --> 00:54:47,360
of these goals were beyond my 
limits and hence the title 

1132
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:49,440
Beyond your limits to inspire 
people. 

1133
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,240
But if you were to pick, there 
are a couple of goals I will 

1134
00:54:52,240 --> 00:54:55,720
tell you. 
One is I ran a marathon in under

1135
00:54:55,720 --> 00:54:57,720
4 hours. 
Now if you look at my 

1136
00:54:57,720 --> 00:55:03,320
background, I was about 92 kilos
in 2003 and I lost about 50 lbs 

1137
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:07,960
by 2019. 
So I became 67 KGS from 92 KGS 

1138
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,280
and I ran a full marathon about 
42 kilometers or 26 miles in 

1139
00:55:12,280 --> 00:55:15,720
less than 4 hours. 
And to me the transformation 

1140
00:55:15,720 --> 00:55:18,480
from somebody who was 
overweight, obese and not 

1141
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,280
enjoyed any physical activity. 
I was like a couch potato 

1142
00:55:21,280 --> 00:55:24,600
sitting and just coding on my 
computer and watching things. 

1143
00:55:24,720 --> 00:55:28,920
I never enjoyed physical workout
from that in 20 years. 

1144
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,800
Changing to somebody who is a 
marathoner, who can call myself 

1145
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:34,480
as a marathoner, has been 
transformational. 

1146
00:55:34,600 --> 00:55:37,560
That is one. 
The second goal I'm really proud

1147
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:41,360
about is publishing a book. 
Like I said in the beginning, 

1148
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,320
English is my third language. 
I learned the absolute English 

1149
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:50,960
from A-Z in fifth grade at age 
11 and only in probably in my 

1150
00:55:51,000 --> 00:55:53,920
graduation. 
I spoke in front of people for 

1151
00:55:53,920 --> 00:55:58,520
15 minutes in English. 
Before all of that, I never 

1152
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:00,800
spoke in English. 
I I was writing good English, by

1153
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:02,680
the way. 
My written English was great, 

1154
00:56:03,320 --> 00:56:05,720
but I wasn't used to 
communicating, conversing in 

1155
00:56:05,720 --> 00:56:08,920
English. 
And from there coming all the 

1156
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:11,560
way to the US and then 
publishing a book in America. 

1157
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:14,760
I think I'm really proud it is 
doing a number four on Amazon 

1158
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:16,720
two weeks ago. 
It keeps changing of course, 

1159
00:56:16,720 --> 00:56:21,160
based on the book sale, but last
week it was on #4 in the new age

1160
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:25,120
self help category. 
Somebody who studied English at 

1161
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:27,600
age 11. 
I have come a long way to 

1162
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:30,280
publish their best selling book.
I'm really proud and content. 

1163
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,000
Very beautiful achievements, 
right? 

1164
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:34,640
So thanks for sharing that, by 
the way. 

1165
00:56:34,640 --> 00:56:37,520
So I think for people, 
definitely these two things, 

1166
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:41,520
probably most of the goals that 
people aspire to achieve as 

1167
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:43,720
well, you know, like be a 
marathoners, right? 

1168
00:56:43,720 --> 00:56:47,120
Be more fit in terms of physical
activities and under 4 hours, I 

1169
00:56:47,120 --> 00:56:48,680
would say that is really, really
fast. 

1170
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:51,840
So I think from someone who is 
kind of like overweight to 

1171
00:56:51,960 --> 00:56:55,080
becoming like a fast runner, I 
think definitely that's a great 

1172
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,360
transformation. 
And publishing a book, I think 

1173
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,360
it's also maybe many people's 
dream, right? 

1174
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,240
I think the story here that you 
mentioned means that it's 

1175
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:06,000
something achievable, even 
though maybe you think it's too 

1176
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:08,640
far fetched, but it's actually 
definitely very possible, 

1177
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,280
especially if you can kind of 
like come up with the goals and 

1178
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,320
actions, actually achieve those 
things. 

1179
00:57:13,920 --> 00:57:16,200
So Pramoda, I really enjoyed 
this conversation. 

1180
00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:19,120
Before I let you go, I have one 
last question that I would like 

1181
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,160
to ask you. 
I call this the three technical 

1182
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,760
leadership wisdom, but it could 
be any leadership wisdom as 

1183
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:25,520
well. 
You can think of them just like 

1184
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:26,960
an advice that you want to give 
to us. 

1185
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,640
Maybe if you can share your 
version to us, I think that 

1186
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:31,280
would be great. 
Absolutely. 

1187
00:57:31,280 --> 00:57:33,640
In fact, I watched a few 
previous episodes. 

1188
00:57:33,640 --> 00:57:36,880
I think about 3 episodes toward 
the end, I listened to what 

1189
00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:39,920
people said in the interview. 
So I want to be radically 

1190
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,840
different and give you 3 
different answers. 

1191
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,600
One of them may be common from 
other people, but two of them 

1192
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:46,360
are unique. 
Now one is. 

1193
00:57:46,360 --> 00:57:51,640
Regardless of who is listening 
to this episode, please discover

1194
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:54,920
and pursue and prioritize your 
intrinsic goals. 

1195
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:59,160
Nobody else will come chasing to
list intrinsic goals for your 

1196
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,400
life and achieve them. 
You need to take ownership and 

1197
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,720
leadership on that number 2. 
Regardless if you have 

1198
00:58:05,720 --> 00:58:08,800
background, please focus on 
improving your communication, 

1199
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:11,160
storytelling, and writing 
skills. 

1200
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,920
Writing involves long form 
writing, short form writing, as 

1201
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:18,960
well as building presentations. 
These are crucial for whatever 

1202
00:58:18,960 --> 00:58:21,200
you do in your life. 
Whether you become an 

1203
00:58:21,200 --> 00:58:24,600
entrepreneur in the future or 
something CTO or CEO doesn't 

1204
00:58:24,600 --> 00:58:26,760
matter. 
These are critical skills in 

1205
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:29,040
your repertoire. 
Please add them to your skill 

1206
00:58:29,040 --> 00:58:33,520
set #3 please develop your 
thought awareness because 

1207
00:58:33,520 --> 00:58:35,440
momentum moment, we are always 
thinking. 

1208
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:39,080
Those thoughts are influencing 
your feelings and your feelings 

1209
00:58:39,080 --> 00:58:41,600
are influencing your actions and
behaviors and choices you are 

1210
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:44,480
making. 
Most of us think that I'm 

1211
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:47,040
dealing today because of the 
outside world. 

1212
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:49,720
It's always inside. 
Your thoughts are creating your 

1213
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,080
feeling. 
If you can develop this one 

1214
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,600
awareness, this can be 
significantly different in your 

1215
00:58:55,600 --> 00:58:57,800
life. 
How you can show up because you 

1216
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,040
are the creator of your 
feelings. 

1217
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,280
The environment is influencing 
you with what's happening around

1218
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:07,080
you, but how do you respond is 
within you your own thoughts, 

1219
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,880
which triggers feelings, which 
triggers behaviors. 

1220
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:13,760
So to summarize again, discover 
your intrinsic goals, pursue 

1221
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:16,480
them with passion, improve your 
communication skills, 

1222
00:59:16,480 --> 00:59:19,960
storytelling, writing skills, 
and then develop awareness of 

1223
00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:23,160
your own thought and how you are
responding to your thoughts and 

1224
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:24,800
the world around you through 
thoughts. 

1225
00:59:25,200 --> 00:59:26,880
Those are my three bits of 
advice. 

1226
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:29,880
Amazing stuff. 
So I think that's really 

1227
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:31,800
beautiful, right? 
So thank you so much for sharing

1228
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,560
those things. 
Again, if you haven't taken the 

1229
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,840
gist of it right, like 
self-awareness, your thoughts, 

1230
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,760
it's been mentioned a couple of 
times in our conversation. 

1231
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,360
So for listeners, I think again,
like work on your self beliefs, 

1232
00:59:43,360 --> 00:59:45,160
your thoughts, right, and 
mindset. 

1233
00:59:45,160 --> 00:59:47,840
I think these are definitely the
levers for you to actually 

1234
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:49,920
improve much more things in your
life. 

1235
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,840
So Pramoda, if people would like
to connect with you or maybe 

1236
00:59:53,920 --> 00:59:56,200
find your books or your 
coaching, is there a place where

1237
00:59:56,200 --> 01:00:00,120
they can find you online? 
Just three places you can go to 

1238
01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:02,680
LinkedIn and find me on LinkedIn
my name. 

1239
01:00:03,080 --> 01:00:06,320
I post a useful content on 
leadership, personal growth and 

1240
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:09,040
goal setting every day. 
Actually, one day to Sunday you 

1241
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:11,160
can find something useful. 
Every day you can follow me. 

1242
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:15,360
You can find my book on Amazon. 
It is available in all formats, 

1243
01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,920
digital, paperback, hardcover, 
and audio book. 

1244
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:20,720
If you have a Spotify 
membership, my book is also 

1245
01:00:20,720 --> 01:00:24,440
available as an audio book in 
Spotify #3 you can go to my 

1246
01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:28,920
website Chain Smith dot me. 
Jane Smith is one word dot ME 

1247
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:32,680
slash courses. 
You can see my courses all of 

1248
01:00:32,680 --> 01:00:35,040
these things I talked about 
communication engineering, 

1249
01:00:35,280 --> 01:00:37,320
storytelling and building great 
slides. 

1250
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,720
They are available as digital 
courses and a lot of engineers 

1251
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:43,480
love the course for engineers 
and managers because it has 

1252
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,040
practical lessons from my 
experience in 20 years and all 

1253
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,520
of them in less than two or 
three hours of training like 

1254
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:51,360
bite size training for various 
aspects. 

1255
01:00:51,360 --> 01:00:56,080
So you will enjoy invest your 
time and effort in developing 

1256
01:00:56,080 --> 01:00:58,720
these skills. 
Thank you for sharing this. 

1257
01:00:58,720 --> 01:01:00,960
I will put all of them in the 
show notes as well. 

1258
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,320
So I think thank you so much for
this conversation, Pramoda. 

1259
01:01:03,320 --> 01:01:06,000
I hope people kind of like 
understand, you know, some 

1260
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,080
things about communications and 
some things about goal setting 

1261
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:11,920
and kind of like achieve 
something beyond their limits. 

1262
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:15,440
So thank you so much for this. 
Thank you, I really enjoyed the 

1263
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:16,000
conversation.