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developers. 
A selection of well-known 

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The other part of experiments 
that are ilanic is about how you

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frame failure. 
So a lot of people are afraid to

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try something because we could 
get blamed. 

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So, I think the most important 
part about building an 

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experiment driven culture is to 
make it safe to fail and to fail

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in good ways. 
Hey everyone. 

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My name is Henry Surya with 
Robin. 

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And you're listening to the 
technology, you know, podcast 

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the show where I'll be bringing 
you the greatest technical 

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leaders practitioners and 
thought leaders in the industry 

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to discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hello my friends. 

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Welcome to the tekhelet general 
podcast, the show where you can 

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learn about technical leadership
and Excellence from my 

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conversations. 
With great thought, leaders in 

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the tech industry and I'm very 
happy to present you episode 

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104. 
If this is your first time 

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listening to technology, you 
know, subscribe and follow the 

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show on your podcast app and on 
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And if you'd like to support my 
journey creating this, Cast 

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subscribe as a patron at 
package. 

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You know dot, f / Patron. 
My guest for today's episode is 

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Lisi hot good. 
Lisi is an active figure in the 

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global testing community in this
episode. 

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Lisi shared on Lessons Learned 
growing an experiment driven 

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quality culture in her recent 
years, Lizzie shared why it is 

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important to have an 
experimentation mindset before 

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we adopt something new, or any 
best practices and to have a 

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safe environment to execute 
those. 

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Romans Lizzie shared her advice 
on how to run an experiment from

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building transparency. 
Creating hypothesis getting 

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buy-in and understanding our 
biases. 

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And in particular, the sun cost 
policy in the left half Lizzy, 

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shared her, personal 
transformation Journey learning 

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in public and share her tips on 
growing technical confidence. 

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I hope you enjoy listening to my
conversation with Lizzie. 

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If you also enjoy it. 
Please help. 

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Share it with your friends and 
colleagues who can also benefit 

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from listening to this episode. 
It is my ultimate mission to 

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spread this podcast to more 
people. 

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And I really appreciate your 
support in any way towards 

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fulfilling my mission. 
Before we continue the 

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conversation, let's hear some 
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Hi everyone, welcome to another 

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new episode of the package, you 
know, podcast today I have a 

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guest with me named Lizzie 
Hawker. 

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Please see is someone who is 
very active in testing 

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Community. 
She actually has a lot of blog 

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posts around testing, and in 
fact the latest blog post when 

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she attended the age Testing 
day, that looks really beautiful

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there. 
So many illustrations that see 

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this herself. 
So make sure if you are 

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interested in following a gel 
testing presentations and 

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materials, go check out Li see 
how color-block and you can see 

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so many breathable illustrations
on that website. 

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These see, thank you so much for
attending this session. 

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Basically we'll be talking a lot
about testing culture. 

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So you want to share a great 
sharing topic from your personal

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Journey about experiment, driven
quality culture and lay down the

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also have some personal sharing 
which I'm really looking 

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forward. 
It to hearing from you as well. 

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So, welcome to the show. 
Lizzie. 

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Thanks for spending your time. 
Thank you for having me. 

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It's great to be here. 
So, let's see. 

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I always like to start our 
conversation by asking your 

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career Journey. 
Maybe if you can share any 

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highlights or turning point so 
far in your career, I'm happy to

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say. 
I think I wouldn't have a career

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that's quite straightforward. 
So maybe there's quite a story 

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to start with. 
I never thought for instance 

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that I ended up in Tech and very
happy I did in the end. 

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But it's not where I started 
off. 

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I studied also different subject
coming from completely different

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background basically, but when I
reached the end of my studies, I

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really felt. 
Okay, what do we do now? 

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Because it was a quite an Eric 
study. 

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There were many options for what
to pick where, to start a career

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based on the csis subject that I
had. 

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Which was computer games in 
China, I felt maybe. 

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Just maybe because that happen, 
I could also try And see if I 

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can get my foot into the 
computer games industry because 

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I have a passion there and maybe
could combine our passion with 

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my work which would be amazing 
if I don't try that. 

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I don't know. 
I having that thought made me 

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actually do it, I ended up in a 
little startup in the computer 

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game industry. 
We were not developing games 

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ourselves but actually an AI 
middleware for computer game 

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developers. 
So I was ending up in the 

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software development company, 
very small. 

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Complete start up. 
So, that was my entry point into

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Tech in itself and also got made
to contact with a drawl. 

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What is Scrum? 
What are the different roles 

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that? 
We need a different skills that 

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we need everything and I just 
loved it. 

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I actually started as a game 
designer because they honestly 

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just gave me a chance. 
I'm not coming from that 

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background either but just a few
months in our tester, quit the 

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drug. 
That was a turning point for me.

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Definitely, or basically, my 
starting point. 

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Because my manager back then 
called me into his room with a 

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very serious face. 
I'm, he said like, hey, you know

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what you doing right now? 
You're not doing so well, and I 

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was like, oh my gosh, but I'm 
telling me, I'm fired, my whole 

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world is scattering. 
I just love this place, please, 

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can I stay here? 
And then he continued testing 

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could be something for you. 
And in hindsight, I know he 

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needed someone to take over that
job, but for me, it was like, I 

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have no idea, but let me try it 
because I definitely want to 

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stay here. 
Love that place, maybe it does 

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fit or not, I don't know because
I have no idea what it even 

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about the thing is he probably 
needed to sell the position. 

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Yes, but he actually was right. 
That it was a better fit for me 

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because suddenly, I could really
use my strength. 

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I could contribute in many 
different ways that we couldn't 

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before, so it really played to 
my strengths. 

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I realized this is something 
that I could imagine working in 

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for very, very, very long time. 
So that's sort of how I was 

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gently pushed. 
Into testing and quality or fell

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into testing, but in the end, I 
really just found my place in 

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Tech and realized this is 
something I never imagined I 

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could work in, but it makes a 
lot of sense. 

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When looking back at the 
history, I also grew up with 

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technology grew up, with 
computers. 

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I just was socialized 
differently. 

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So, I never thought I could 
really work there and not 

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turning point that really showed
me how well I could work there 

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now, back then there was no 
other person. 

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It was a really small start-up, 
so the other tests that quit 

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already I was alone. 
We had some very old books in 

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are very little library to learn
about testing and quality. 

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That's where also started to 
find the community outside. 

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All the people that are sharing 
the knowledge and sharing their 

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insights. 
I learned a lot by trying these 

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things out, one of the big 
highlights back then was my 

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product owner back then we 
didn't have a training budget, 

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not very small starter but we 
could at least five books and 

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one of the books that I got with
agile testing NG but Lisa crisp 

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in Edina Gregory and that opened
my eyes to A Whole New World and

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then that it started following 
them on Twitter and seeing old 

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are so many other great people 
and so many resources and 

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started to learn from. 
There's I've received a lot from

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that Community back then that I 
could actually try out because 

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again, I didn't have anyone else
to talk to or to learn from at 

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work. 
So I got a lot from outside to 

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try. 
A dozen spiration that work 

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well, that's sort of in the end,
it didn't make it. 

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So it was sort of a roller 
coaster phase but Wouldn't miss 

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it because I learned a lot back 
them about all things of the 

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development and teams and 
collaboration. 

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A lot of stuff later on. 
I went to, let's say a 

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consultancy so, working on 
projects and learned a lot about

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operations, third level support 
and so on. 

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But it got me away from product 
development, where was before, 

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where was really happy. 
It also got me further away from

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testing quality and feel like 
they want to get back to that my

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last company where it stayed for
six years. 

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I I was Finding product 
development. 

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Again, I really realized saying,
okay, this is my happy place, 

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this is where I'm driving. 
This is where I can also. 

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Contribute newest, I had a great
journey then. 

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Also, that company, I had 
another Turning Point basically,

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for me, because I became a 
speaker at conferences. 

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So suddenly not only getting 
input from the community of 

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Floyd, but also being able to 
give back which was a journey in

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itself. 
But it was definitely a turning 

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point in the sense of increasing
my network, having a lot. 

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Access to knowledge this way, 
getting even more Inspirations 

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00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:29,600
because speaking conferences 
means you have, like, an entry 

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ticket to a lot more 
conferences. 

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00:11:32,300 --> 00:11:35,600
Now, I had a training budget, 
but obviously, no training 

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00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:38,700
budget is paying. 
You like five, six conferences 

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00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,600
per year. 
Speaking, really open that door 

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for me. 
I got to know a lot more people,

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lot more inspiration. 
I think the next turning point 

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then was to level up in 
seniority and getting in fancy 

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new title of the senior Back 
down in a company, was principal

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titles are context-dependent. 
So it was just the next one of 

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the senior at that company. 
But without I was also suddenly 

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part of leadership fully 
leadership, not in a management 

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role, but in that individual 
contributor role. 

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So I started to make more 
intentional impact across the 

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organization and seeing, how 
could this look like I realized 

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suddenly people also perceive me
differently because I was still 

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the same person but suddenly 
have that title. 

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So that's something that all 
Open my eyes a lot in the last 

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year's. 
And I think the final one is now

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that I have just started at a 
new company to see how much 

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value is actually my experience 
with. 

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Can we transfer to another 
company? 

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Because if you stayed for a long
time with the last places, at 

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least I start to wonder, like, 
okay, is this actually 

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applicable or some other 
context? 

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Or is it really not context? 
Is it really constrained to 

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that? 
And then that brings me to today

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and organization. 
Thank you so much for sharing 

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00:12:53,500 --> 00:12:55,700
your journey, Lizzy. 
I think, some people might 

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relate to that particular 
Journey as well. 

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So where you started in, 
probably not intact the 

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background, but then you gave it
a try. 

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You didn't find the first fit of
the job. 

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The game designer thing, right? 
Probably some people also 

247
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experience the same thing but 
hey sometimes opportunity 

248
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happen. 
And if I remember correctly 

249
00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,500
Janet Gregory and Lisa, Crispin 
themselves, actually didn't 

250
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start it to pick testing in the 
first place. 

251
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So they somehow Grew From 
opportunities to Opportunities. 

252
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:22,500
Now, they become. 
So, He does. 

253
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And I'm sure you are also quite 
active in the testing world and 

254
00:13:25,700 --> 00:13:27,600
becomes inspirational for other 
people. 

255
00:13:27,900 --> 00:13:29,800
So, thank you so much for 
sharing this story. 

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00:13:30,300 --> 00:13:32,800
I'm also intrigued by your 
journey going through 

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conferences, over conferences. 
This is acting, probably some 

258
00:13:35,900 --> 00:13:38,700
people aspire to do as well. 
We'll be discussing about that 

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00:13:38,700 --> 00:13:42,100
later, but I just want to maybe 
go through our first topic, 

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00:13:42,100 --> 00:13:44,900
where you probably are sharing 
some of the experiment things 

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00:13:44,900 --> 00:13:47,600
that you did in building some 
kind of quality culture. 

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00:13:47,900 --> 00:13:50,900
I think changing culture is hot 
no matter which company you're 

263
00:13:50,900 --> 00:13:54,100
in small or Big maybe big is 
even tougher. 

264
00:13:54,300 --> 00:13:57,300
So, tell us a little bit more 
about this journey that you have

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00:13:57,300 --> 00:13:59,700
maybe a little bit of background
about this story. 

266
00:14:00,500 --> 00:14:04,000
So this is a story about the 
last three years and my last 

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00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,400
company. 
So from 2019 to 2021 basically 

268
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discovering that Pine stand back
in. 2019 the company I've worked

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00:14:13,100 --> 00:14:16,200
out was in the phase where we 
have a lot of product teams, 

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00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:21,100
like think 38 around that time, 
we had nine different domains, 

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all those teams, We're really 
autonomous. 

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00:14:24,300 --> 00:14:27,000
Or at least that was also, our 
aim always, to have the 

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Independent to enable them to 
really make their own decisions 

274
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,400
in their own context because all
those proteins really have a 

275
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different context and each of 
them owned like either a full 

276
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:40,600
product or maybe a few services,
but definitely, they were quite 

277
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,400
autonomous. 
The result that we saw back in 

278
00:14:43,408 --> 00:14:48,200
2019 was we actually have not 
really insight into how these 

279
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,200
teams were doing, especially 
regarding casting quality or 

280
00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:54,200
they actually Driving and they 
could share more across teams 

281
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:55,600
like good practices and 
everything. 

282
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,500
Or are they having struggles? 
Maybe there's room for 

283
00:14:58,500 --> 00:15:00,800
improvement. 
Maybe we could help, but we just

284
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:03,300
don't know. 
It's like a black box back then 

285
00:15:03,300 --> 00:15:07,600
our CIO and also sponsored an 
initiative to figure out. 

286
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,500
Okay, how's it going? 
Well, that's all blended with 

287
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,300
me. 
So I was still embedded in one 

288
00:15:13,300 --> 00:15:16,200
of the product teams because 
that was the setup we had. 

289
00:15:16,500 --> 00:15:20,100
But with my seniority level, I 
was meant to also Drive these 

290
00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,600
kind of initiatives across teams
And while in the testing quality

291
00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:25,500
space, that was dear to my 
heart. 

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00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:29,100
So I picked up that topic. 
What I made really good 

293
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:31,200
experience with in my personal 
purpose. 

294
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,800
Basically, was to frame these 
kind of things as experiments 

295
00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:40,100
with a real hypothesis to know 
what I want to try and what I 

296
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:43,900
hope to have as an outcome, from
what I want to try before I do 

297
00:15:43,900 --> 00:15:46,100
it. 
So I can really measure against 

298
00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,100
and I cannot still communicate 
clearly about all these things. 

299
00:15:49,300 --> 00:15:51,700
And also hold ourselves 
accountable as well. 

300
00:15:52,100 --> 00:15:53,900
So that's what we tried back 
down. 

301
00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:57,600
The mission was really to level 
up the culture regarding testing

302
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,500
and quality. 
We wanted to have those teams 

303
00:16:00,500 --> 00:16:03,600
grow mature in the sense of, as 
soon as we're there, we can 

304
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,200
really scale further because 
that was the ultimate goal of 

305
00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,000
the company driver behind what 
we want to scale. 

306
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,300
We already included a teams but 
we want to scale like heavily. 

307
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:17,400
So we better know now where we 
are, this led to an experiment 

308
00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:20,200
and actually was like an 
experiment of a lot of small 

309
00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,900
experiments. 
It was like an overall In goal 

310
00:16:22,900 --> 00:16:27,500
to level up the knowledge skills
and practices of teams by also 

311
00:16:27,500 --> 00:16:29,700
enabling them to experiment 
themselves. 

312
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:33,100
Because again, their contacts 
was massively different. 

313
00:16:33,300 --> 00:16:36,400
It's not one size fits all that 
we could apply there. 

314
00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,900
We went into the teams. 
We have some pilot teams to 

315
00:16:39,900 --> 00:16:42,400
start with, basically, to test 
our hypothesis. 

316
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,800
If that could be proven or we 
need to find something else 

317
00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:47,600
because they could also very 
well, be right with 

318
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,200
experimentation. 
It could totally be that we're 

319
00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:52,900
on the wrong track, it could 
have also So been that actually 

320
00:16:52,900 --> 00:16:54,800
teams that are thriving and 
they're doing well, they just 

321
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,100
don't share enough fine. 
No problem here. 

322
00:16:57,300 --> 00:17:00,000
That would be cool. 
What we found was. 

323
00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,100
We went into four teams for 
different product teams, quite 

324
00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:06,400
different aspects. 
So quite a nice subset of the 

325
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,900
teams that we had. 
We worked with each of them, to 

326
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:11,700
first of all, create 
transparency, where they 

327
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:14,700
currently are. 
How do they build quality in? 

328
00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:16,800
What are they currently do to 
test? 

329
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,000
What they build? 
Are there any pain points 

330
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:23,300
because usually they are, right.
And usually Know about that the 

331
00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:26,900
best because that's their 
context, what could they try to 

332
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:30,100
improve? 
So transparency was one part but

333
00:17:30,100 --> 00:17:33,200
they also needed to have the 
awareness of what kind of 

334
00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:36,300
options they have to improve 
their situation and then to 

335
00:17:36,300 --> 00:17:39,200
experiment to really try 
something new and see if that 

336
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,900
works or not. 
This is what we did with each of

337
00:17:41,900 --> 00:17:44,300
the four teams. 
Obviously, there's more details,

338
00:17:44,600 --> 00:17:47,400
how we create a transparency, 
these kind of things, but the 

339
00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,800
end was that we helped them to 
design their own experiments. 

340
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:55,300
Help them support The Run 
following up and so on and also 

341
00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:56,900
design a second experiment for 
them. 

342
00:17:57,500 --> 00:18:01,200
This whole initiative span 
across like ten months, we also 

343
00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,700
have like a lot of reflection 
points because, again, in the 

344
00:18:03,708 --> 00:18:07,000
end, we wanted to see stuff 
hypothesis that we have to help 

345
00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,000
them create that transparency. 
Help them spread the awareness 

346
00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,400
and experiment is that actually 
leading us further to that 

347
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,400
quality culture that we wanted 
to aim for. 

348
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:18,000
I would say. 
In hindsight, it was partly 

349
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,400
doing the job partly in the 
sense of it, triggered, a lot of

350
00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:24,100
great. 
About testing and quality and 

351
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:26,700
also the underlying problems in 
the team. 

352
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,100
Because usually, when you start 
talking about housing quality, a

353
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,200
lot of communication issues are 
unreal. 

354
00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,100
Door collaboration issues like 
deeper things, foundational, 

355
00:18:36,100 --> 00:18:37,600
things that need to be fixed 
first. 

356
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,300
And then we can talk about 
testing and quality itself, but 

357
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:42,400
it's actually an interesting 
trigger about these 

358
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:44,200
conversations and really 
valuable. 

359
00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:46,800
It also could raise a lot of 
awareness. 

360
00:18:47,100 --> 00:18:49,500
We could break down some 
misconceptions. 

361
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,000
We could Inspire teams 
definitely to improve their 

362
00:18:52,100 --> 00:18:55,000
Isis, which is great. 
Well unfortunately, that was the

363
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:56,000
impact. 
They had. 

364
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:58,900
We hope for other impact as 
well, but we didn't have it. 

365
00:18:59,100 --> 00:19:02,300
For example, doubt not the whole
team was on board, no matter how

366
00:19:02,300 --> 00:19:05,500
much we encouraged everyone to 
really draw in those sessions, 

367
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,800
no matter how much by in we got 
before from manager. 

368
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:11,800
From everyone, not the whole 
team was on board in the end. 

369
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:14,500
Also not all people opened up 
for New Concepts. 

370
00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:18,400
I mean humans we can't force 
them which is totally fine, 

371
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,600
right? 
But misconceptions Prevail in 

372
00:19:20,600 --> 00:19:24,200
the end but the sad Paul was 
that the team's really struggled

373
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,100
running the experiments, which 
was sort of the core of our 

374
00:19:27,100 --> 00:19:30,100
hypotheses to enable them, for 
continuous Improvement and to 

375
00:19:30,100 --> 00:19:33,600
really look further, they really
struggled more because they 

376
00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:36,900
didn't want to, but it was that 
fall back into everyday 

377
00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:40,900
business, which so easily took 
over like that roadmap, that's 

378
00:19:40,900 --> 00:19:42,800
higher priority. 
So, we need to work on that, 

379
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,700
like, yes, it would be nice to 
work on this experiment but the 

380
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:50,000
other one, we feel the pressure,
any other results of actions, 

381
00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,600
spoke, a lot louder than words, 
and That matter. 

382
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,300
And again, we have a lot of 
encouragement and a lot of 

383
00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:58,800
support from management but the 
decisions of the actual people 

384
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,000
doing the work painted, a 
different picture. 

385
00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:03,100
So there was something else 
going on. 

386
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,000
We felt, okay, we need to switch
this around. 

387
00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,900
It also was too heavy weight for
stealing, because we spend a lot

388
00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:14,300
of time with the 14. 
So we had 38 how to scale that 

389
00:20:14,500 --> 00:20:15,900
it would have taken way too 
long. 

390
00:20:16,500 --> 00:20:20,400
So next experiment started and 
further experiments followed, 

391
00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:21,900
especially from what we 
observed. 

392
00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:25,700
Spam across the years. 
Basically, I would not claim. 

393
00:20:25,700 --> 00:20:29,200
We have found the perfect way to
do that quality culture, but it 

394
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,700
has triggered, a lot of 
thoughts, a lot of conversations

395
00:20:32,900 --> 00:20:35,900
and that itself was already 
valuable enough to always 

396
00:20:35,900 --> 00:20:39,500
continue trying the next thing 
that could hopefully help cater 

397
00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:42,400
to what we need and cater to 
what we need from a product in 

398
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,800
perspective where we started. 
But also as we later found for 

399
00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,500
our Tech leadership. 
So my peers basically because 

400
00:20:48,500 --> 00:20:51,800
they have different needs this 
underlying system that we all 

401
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:54,000
work. 
Get in where I realized, there's

402
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,100
something systemic here. 
So let's look at our reward 

403
00:20:57,100 --> 00:20:59,100
system, what do we actually 
reward them for it? 

404
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,200
Do we reward actions 
contributing to toss in quality,

405
00:21:02,500 --> 00:21:06,000
or is it something different? 
Because usually people have good

406
00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:07,900
reasons why they show certain 
behaviors. 

407
00:21:08,500 --> 00:21:11,500
So, yeah, that's sort of the 
whole initiative in a nutshell. 

408
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:14,200
Obviously there's a lot more 
detail as a starting point. 

409
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,200
Thanks for sharing this and do, 
and I'm sure that when you 

410
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,200
telling the story, you look back
and bring back those memories. 

411
00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,800
So in the first place, He just 
took that from the beginning, 

412
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:27,100
many people wants to drive 
culture, change, many people has

413
00:21:27,100 --> 00:21:31,000
great vision, I want to be a 
world-class Tech organization or

414
00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,500
Tech teams. 
I want to follow Google or 

415
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:35,000
whatever big companies out 
there. 

416
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,200
So the vision is always great. 
Building, the culture itself is 

417
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,400
tough and you have this angle, 
which I find very interesting, 

418
00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:44,100
not many people do. 
So you actually make it such 

419
00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:46,900
that it's an experiment. 
When you have an experiment, 

420
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:49,400
that means you have a 
hypothesis, you have things that

421
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,900
you want to try to do and you 
have some kind of measure. 

422
00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,000
I meant, right? 
The outcomes that you want to 

423
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,300
try to achieve and measure. 
Whether you meet that over a 

424
00:21:56,300 --> 00:22:00,400
certain period of time, tell us 
why experiment driven is 

425
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,400
something that we should aim for
when we want to build a culture.

426
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:08,600
So originally I started out to 
you start because I just made 

427
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,300
personal good experience with it
but in the end over the years 

428
00:22:12,300 --> 00:22:15,500
and then that this is definitely
something I want to build as a 

429
00:22:15,500 --> 00:22:20,000
culture that we do more 
experiments idea is that we 

430
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,100
focus on learning on false 
Learning that we really need to 

431
00:22:24,108 --> 00:22:27,100
try things out in our context 
before we actually know if it 

432
00:22:27,100 --> 00:22:30,000
works or not. 
So that's also the case with 

433
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,000
what often are called, best 
practices. 

434
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,600
Yes, they might work in a 
majority of context but does it 

435
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,000
work in my own context? 
Right now, with these very 

436
00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:41,000
specific, I don't know if I 
haven't tried it. 

437
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,000
Also when we think of like the 
Canadian model of the different 

438
00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,500
domains in which like be aware, 
are we working on something? 

439
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:50,000
That's really simplistic. 
Is it something that's 

440
00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:51,900
complicated but actually we have
good structure. 

441
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,400
Jurors and we know a lot of good
practices that we can use. 

442
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,000
Or is it so complex? 
So we really have to explore 

443
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,600
that space. 
We don't know yet. 

444
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,300
Mostly what I faced in software 
development, we usually always 

445
00:23:03,300 --> 00:23:06,000
build something new. 
We work with new people, we work

446
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,000
in a new domain. 
We try to discover new none. 

447
00:23:09,300 --> 00:23:13,000
So, it's a lot of exploration. 
We need to do for out. 

448
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,500
We need to experiment with need 
to try something new. 

449
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:19,200
The other part of experiments 
that I really like, besides 

450
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:23,100
that, we obviously can really 
have them help or It's about how

451
00:23:23,100 --> 00:23:26,500
you frame failure. 
So a lot of people are afraid to

452
00:23:26,500 --> 00:23:29,100
try something because we could 
get blamed. 

453
00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:32,300
We could fail personally. 
Maybe I lose my face because of 

454
00:23:32,300 --> 00:23:33,900
that, right? 
It's like there's a risk 

455
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:36,300
involved. 
So I think the most important 

456
00:23:36,300 --> 00:23:39,400
part about building an 
experiment driven culture is to 

457
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:43,100
make it safe to fail and to feel
in good ways like that 

458
00:23:43,100 --> 00:23:45,000
hypothesis. 
That I came up with could not 

459
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,700
fully prove it. 
You could see it as a failure. 

460
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,400
You could also see our it's not 
a failure because we actually 

461
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:51,800
learned. 
It's a good thing. 

462
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,200
Thing that we learned that this 
port is not working, other parts

463
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,300
are working so we can find 
something better, but it's a 

464
00:23:58,300 --> 00:24:00,500
whole range of how we can 
perceive failure. 

465
00:24:00,500 --> 00:24:04,000
Every like, I think it's from 
Amy Edmondson, like a spectrum 

466
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:08,600
of failure where she arranges a 
from, like, blameworthy failure,

467
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,800
really stuff that could be 
avoided that maybe you should 

468
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,400
not go into. 
Again, to really praised with 

469
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,300
the Athenian in the sense of 
experimentation of exploration 

470
00:24:18,300 --> 00:24:21,900
to learn fast. 
And I feel building that safety 

471
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,100
Can help in so many ways and 
allows us to experiment and to 

472
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:28,900
allow people feel safe to try 
something and not get the play 

473
00:24:28,900 --> 00:24:32,500
him but actually get the praise.
So try something in a good way 

474
00:24:32,700 --> 00:24:36,800
in a safe way that also Limits 
The Fallout physically of what 

475
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:39,400
could go wrong. 
And I think we all need to learn

476
00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:41,700
how to do that. 
Better and mean cling better. 

477
00:24:42,500 --> 00:24:45,300
I mean, the spirit of a gel 
itself is basically a lot of 

478
00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:48,600
experiments and trying out and, 
you know, short feedback loops 

479
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:50,900
and things like that. 
You brought up two good points 

480
00:24:50,900 --> 00:24:54,100
actually when we We hear about 
best practices sometimes we 

481
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:56,100
think, okay? 
This is the way to go, but you 

482
00:24:56,100 --> 00:24:58,800
brought up a good point that 
sometimes we have to think about

483
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,400
the context where you are at. 
Some people put it like you're 

484
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:05,500
not Google, so don't try to be 
following the Google practices 

485
00:25:05,500 --> 00:25:08,000
for example. 
So some best practices even 

486
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,800
though it's best practices for 
many people. 

487
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,900
Sometimes it doesn't work for 
your context for certain 

488
00:25:11,900 --> 00:25:14,100
situations. 
So thanks for highlighting that 

489
00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:16,700
and I think I like the last part
when you frame it as an 

490
00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:18,900
experiment. 
So experiment sometimes can 

491
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:21,100
fail. 
It's not like a commitment that 

492
00:25:21,100 --> 00:25:24,100
you will Chief, what you 
intended to do in the beginning.

493
00:25:24,300 --> 00:25:26,400
So I think experiments allow you
to frame it. 

494
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,500
Such that even if you don't meet
the outcomes, it's kind of like 

495
00:25:29,500 --> 00:25:32,500
a success in a way, of course 
you bring up the spectrum of 

496
00:25:32,500 --> 00:25:35,100
failure. 
We all should aspire to what's 

497
00:25:35,100 --> 00:25:37,400
more praiseworthy kind of 
failure, rather than some things

498
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,200
that we under look or something 
like that. 

499
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:41,600
So I think that's definitely a 
different kind of failure. 

500
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,000
You brought up about 
transparency in the beginning. 

501
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,300
When we started about this 
experiments, you brought up the 

502
00:25:47,300 --> 00:25:51,000
point of building transparency. 
No way the team at what kind of 

503
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,900
pain points And things like 
that. 

504
00:25:53,100 --> 00:25:54,900
Why do you think this is 
important to build this 

505
00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:57,200
transparency in the beginning of
the experiment? 

506
00:25:57,900 --> 00:26:01,600
So what helped me without is to 
have a baseline, to really have 

507
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,700
a look into where are we right 
now? 

508
00:26:04,100 --> 00:26:06,900
Not only from Individual point 
of views, but also from a team 

509
00:26:06,900 --> 00:26:10,000
point of view because it might 
be a different perceived reality

510
00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,400
for everyone on the team or what
we're doing right now. 

511
00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:16,100
Honestly, I had teams were 
different roles were on like, 

512
00:26:16,100 --> 00:26:19,700
for example, the Yaks person, 
the developer someone from 

513
00:26:19,700 --> 00:26:23,200
quality, someone from product. 
All of them, share different 

514
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:26,100
things, what needs to happen, 
for example, to get an idea to 

515
00:26:26,100 --> 00:26:29,700
production, not any of them, had
the full picture only when they 

516
00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,900
really put that together 
visually in front of them, they 

517
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:35,000
realize. 
Oh, there are other things I 

518
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,900
never knew about or never 
thought about and also pain 

519
00:26:37,900 --> 00:26:39,300
points that come along with 
that. 

520
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:43,700
So T have that Baseline? 
For me is really important to 

521
00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:47,100
not only face the truth of a 
current and acknowledge where we

522
00:26:47,100 --> 00:26:50,400
are right now with a good into 
that because it's just fact. 

523
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,200
And then we have a baseline to 
From because then you can see 

524
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,500
the Delta, basically, you can 
really know how things improved 

525
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:00,900
or maybe not, maybe they went in
a different direction, so you 

526
00:27:00,900 --> 00:27:03,800
have that information to 
evaluate your experiments. 

527
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,200
So, transparency in itself I 
found really valuable because 

528
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:10,500
you can really share also the 
pain and also hopefully Inspire 

529
00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:13,500
others to reduce the friction 
that you currently experiencing.

530
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:16,500
But then when you start taking 
action on that, you see that 

531
00:27:16,500 --> 00:27:19,000
Delta are we going into a better
Direction? 

532
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,800
And before it doesn't have to be
perfect just a bit better? 

533
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:25,400
Or are we maybe regressing could
also be right? 

534
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:27,800
But then you know otherwise how 
could you tell? 

535
00:27:28,700 --> 00:27:31,300
So I think yeah this comes back 
to if I'm not mistaken. 

536
00:27:31,300 --> 00:27:34,100
It's the scientific method in a 
way where you need to know where

537
00:27:34,100 --> 00:27:36,500
you start, right? 
Because sometimes we all tend to

538
00:27:36,500 --> 00:27:38,700
want to build a culture. 
Yeah, we know, there is a 

539
00:27:38,708 --> 00:27:42,100
problem, it's not written 
explicitly, we just kind of 

540
00:27:42,108 --> 00:27:44,800
feel, it's a gut feeling and we 
start our experiment and things 

541
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,400
like that but at the end of the 
day we don't know whether we are

542
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:50,400
progressing or regress secret. 
So building this transparency 

543
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,200
and Baseline I think actually Be
very important in any kind of 

544
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,200
experiment so that you need to 
know at the end whether you 

545
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,400
actually progressing making good
progress. 

546
00:27:58,500 --> 00:28:02,300
And the changes is intended, or 
is something that is completely 

547
00:28:02,300 --> 00:28:04,300
out of the blue. 
Are you didn't intend it to 

548
00:28:04,300 --> 00:28:07,000
happen but it happened anyway. 
So I think they are this kind of

549
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,100
transparency. 
I can see it's important. 

550
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,200
I think after you build That 
Base Line, you have hypotheses 

551
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:14,200
in experimental, scientific 
method, you have this 

552
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,200
hypothesis. 
So tell us why we should build 

553
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,200
hypotheses when building culture
as well. 

554
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,100
How should we come up with this 
hypothesis? 

555
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,800
You put, this is politics 
actually one that many people 

556
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,100
struggle with. 
And for me it's also personally,

557
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:32,400
the hardest part, the reason I'm
still doing that if it forces me

558
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,500
to really write down, what is 
it? 

559
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:36,100
Exactly. 
I want to do and what do you 

560
00:28:36,100 --> 00:28:39,200
expect out of it? 
Just a thought exercise for me 

561
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,400
is actually the most valuable 
part even if maybe I haven't 

562
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,400
framed it perfectly because 
wording is hard writing out 

563
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,400
hypothesis is also something 
tricky. 

564
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:50,500
Again, they don't have to be 
perfect but it forces us to 

565
00:28:50,500 --> 00:28:53,100
write things down. 
Down to have it, not adapted 

566
00:28:53,100 --> 00:28:55,000
afterwards, as we go, but really
see. 

567
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:56,700
Okay. 
This is what we wanted to start 

568
00:28:56,700 --> 00:28:59,300
out from maybe we discover 
better directions. 

569
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,500
It's totally fine to also cancel
an experiment and try something 

570
00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:06,400
else, but then it's an 
intentional practice. 

571
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,800
So formulating those hypotheses 
in itself I felt always 

572
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:14,600
extremely valuable to clear up 
my thinking but also then in 

573
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,900
hindsight to hold myself 
accountable, am I really working

574
00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:19,700
on that? 
Can I prove that kind of 

575
00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:21,400
disprove it? 
How's it? 

576
00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,700
This is what I wanted to set out
if I want to change directions 

577
00:29:24,900 --> 00:29:27,400
again, let's find her. 
Should be intentional about it 

578
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,900
and also be open about it. 
So yeah, I think this kind of 

579
00:29:30,900 --> 00:29:33,600
thought process where you want 
to experiment something but if 

580
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,000
you don't write it down, 
sometimes it can happen. 

581
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,900
Also things change and you go 
into different direction 

582
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,200
unconsciously. 
I think this is what we don't 

583
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,800
want to do because that means 
you are at running a different 

584
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,600
experiments all together. 
I think having this kind of 

585
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,700
hypothesis stage where you write
down or maybe make it clear to 

586
00:29:49,700 --> 00:29:52,200
people who are involved. 
Okay, this Is the things that we

587
00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,600
want to experiment and this is 
the outcome that you want to 

588
00:29:54,608 --> 00:29:56,300
try. 
So let's give it a go. 

589
00:29:56,300 --> 00:29:58,300
Everybody in the same picture 
and either try. 

590
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:01,700
Another thing that you mentioned
about this hypothesis is that we

591
00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:04,500
need to be conscious that it 
should not be too big in terms 

592
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:07,600
of hypothesis or maybe to 
open-ended or generic. 

593
00:30:07,900 --> 00:30:10,800
We should make it such that is 
small enough and we should aim 

594
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:13,100
for faster iteration or short 
feedback loop. 

595
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:16,800
So tell us more how we can build
a better hypothesis actually. 

596
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:21,500
Again, this is one of the key 
things, I feel if you heard my 

597
00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:24,500
story right now we started out 
for example with a huge 

598
00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:29,200
experiment, it was very big took
a long time to get that feedback

599
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,300
on and heavyweight and I built 
this despite having practice 

600
00:30:33,300 --> 00:30:35,600
more feedback loops and 
everything before. 

601
00:30:35,700 --> 00:30:39,900
And still I caught myself coming
up with a huge experiment, no 

602
00:30:39,900 --> 00:30:43,500
matter how often I preach. 
Otherwise I still caught myself 

603
00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:45,600
doing that in the end. 
It was too big. 

604
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:49,200
Definitely I think There was 
important, part is to reflect on

605
00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:51,600
what we're actually doing, also 
create transparency with 

606
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,800
ourselves. 
Basically to realize, okay? 

607
00:30:54,300 --> 00:30:56,800
Maybe I'm doing something 
differently than I speak. 

608
00:30:57,100 --> 00:31:00,400
There's a mismatch. 
What makes me do something else?

609
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,500
If there's something that he 
knows me, is there something 

610
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:07,800
that's missing anything? 
So I can again also change my 

611
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,300
own behavior and see what would 
be helpful to make it smaller. 

612
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,400
The experimentation part for 
improvements again, for this 

613
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,000
initiative, it was huge. 
It was cross. 

614
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,300
In many people actually have 
this kind of experimentation 

615
00:31:20,300 --> 00:31:23,000
opportunity within the daily 
work in the teams. 

616
00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,600
We also don't have to be in a 
leadership position to 

617
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,600
experiment, it shouldn't hold 
you back, but you're not having 

618
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,500
the expected role or position, 
or whatever. 

619
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:35,100
If you're working, for example, 
in a team, you can use your 

620
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:37,400
cycle. 
Whatever that is, maybe you're 

621
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,800
working in Sprint's. 
So maybe every two weeks you 

622
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,700
have and reflection cycle, 
anyway, all you could use the 

623
00:31:43,700 --> 00:31:46,900
time frame to say, okay? 
We're going to try this for two 

624
00:31:46,900 --> 00:31:48,700
weeks. 
Weeks, see what happens. 

625
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,800
It's like this continuous 
Improvement idea of agile, you 

626
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:55,700
could also try it with yourself.
So one thing that I tried also 

627
00:31:56,100 --> 00:31:58,900
because of knowing that I'm the 
past actually, I came up with 

628
00:31:58,900 --> 00:32:01,200
way to large experiments, would 
I try it? 

629
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:03,500
Now in my new job, especially my
first month? 

630
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,800
Try something daily, just very 
small thing, just a different 

631
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,100
thing every day and see, does it
help me if you understand? 

632
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:12,100
I'll just incorporate it in my 
daily habits. 

633
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:16,200
If not try, something else. 
So to make it really small and 

634
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,800
tangible, And also to ReDiscover
actually better ways of working 

635
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,500
because yes, I'm working now for
quite some years. 

636
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:24,800
I got used to certain working 
Styles. 

637
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,600
So things work for me and know 
that but maybe there's better 

638
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,900
things out there. 
So I should never stop learning 

639
00:32:29,900 --> 00:32:31,600
and looking for better 
approaches. 

640
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,400
So these daily experiments 
really helped a lot especially 

641
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,600
starting at the new company, 
which is like a natural point 

642
00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:40,400
where I have a new set up, maybe
a work with new tools suddenly. 

643
00:32:40,700 --> 00:32:43,600
So have a change anyway in my 
life and I could incorporate 

644
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:47,000
that Depot Hill has like a 
phrase that I really love. 

645
00:32:47,100 --> 00:32:49,500
Of its many more much smaller 
steps. 

646
00:32:49,900 --> 00:32:53,400
So ever since I read that that 
sort of sticking in my head, I'm

647
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:56,600
trying to use it as a guideline 
to come up with even smaller 

648
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,900
things. 
I'm not yet, always succeeding. 

649
00:32:59,300 --> 00:33:02,000
I think that the only thing I'm 
aiming for you might take that 

650
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,200
off the price of not is to 
always think. 

651
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:06,900
Can we make that faster? 
Can we break it down? 

652
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:09,600
Just like what we try to do, 
usually with product 

653
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:12,900
development, get faster 
feedback, good learning quicker.

654
00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:16,200
But I haven't found the Golden 
Rule yet, but I think that kind 

655
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,100
of golden rule that I said from 
Depot here, adding many much 

656
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:21,300
more smaller step. 
I think that's kind of like 

657
00:33:21,300 --> 00:33:23,700
crucial maybe in a jelly bean 
experiments as well. 

658
00:33:23,700 --> 00:33:27,300
I think it can be a golden rule.
So we should not aim to start a 

659
00:33:27,300 --> 00:33:30,700
big experiments where you have 
multiple teams, and multiple 

660
00:33:30,700 --> 00:33:32,800
activities in the end. 
One, big bang. 

661
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,600
So I think we should try to have
more smaller steps experiment 

662
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,000
and reflect at the, you mention 
about reflection. 

663
00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:42,200
The other thing about doing all 
this culture change is about 

664
00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,200
getting buy-in. 
In fact, in your story, you 

665
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,200
mentioned that some people 
understand about the value of of

666
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:49,800
doing the things that you are 
driving, but they fall back into

667
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,500
BAU staffs. 
I mean, life happens, right? 

668
00:33:52,500 --> 00:33:54,800
You have so many other things 
you may have incidents. 

669
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,300
You may have road map features 
and things like that. 

670
00:33:57,500 --> 00:34:01,000
How can you drive people to be 
on board to your experiments? 

671
00:34:01,100 --> 00:34:04,800
So, to speak? 
So, who this big initiatives 

672
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:08,199
that really went across teams, 
we have doubt, sponsorship from 

673
00:34:08,199 --> 00:34:10,600
sea level from the start, which 
definitely helped because we 

674
00:34:10,607 --> 00:34:13,699
could use it in our 
communication with everyone, but

675
00:34:13,699 --> 00:34:18,100
we also made intentional effort 
to get buy-in from PP level, for

676
00:34:18,100 --> 00:34:20,699
example. 
So for example, from our VP for 

677
00:34:20,699 --> 00:34:24,000
product whose is basically also 
driving for example, product 

678
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:27,400
road maps to get that buy-in 
from the start so that there is 

679
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:30,600
not a complete Clash of 
priorities that would instantly 

680
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,699
pull people apart those again, 
also with the team's managers to

681
00:34:34,699 --> 00:34:38,199
include that leadership level 
and the hierarchy but in the end

682
00:34:38,199 --> 00:34:39,900
we wanted to work with the 
team's themselves. 

683
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,300
So we made really intentional 
effort. 

684
00:34:42,300 --> 00:34:46,900
Also here to not just select 
people our select teams top down

685
00:34:47,300 --> 00:34:50,500
But to really investigate, which
could be great teams and then 

686
00:34:50,500 --> 00:34:54,500
they get their explicit by and 
we had a short, very small 

687
00:34:54,500 --> 00:34:57,400
interview round with your short 
list of teams that we had in 

688
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:01,300
mind like a teams in that case 
to interview them just for half 

689
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:04,200
an hour about a few aspects that
interested us. 

690
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:07,300
Part of that was also the 
actually eager to join us in 

691
00:35:07,300 --> 00:35:09,400
this initiative or the eager to 
try this out. 

692
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:12,700
Do they currently have the 
capacity because we also made 

693
00:35:12,700 --> 00:35:14,600
clear. 
You will need to invest time, 

694
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,000
all you currently in a place 
where he could do that. 

695
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,200
And then when we found up here, 
we have known for teams. 

696
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:23,300
We got again the explicit 
commitment and only then we 

697
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:27,200
started, I think, even though in
the end they still fell back 

698
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,100
into everyday business and still
struggled. 

699
00:35:30,300 --> 00:35:32,400
It was a better. 
Starting point to make them 

700
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:35,100
aware hate. 
You also want B rate, we're here

701
00:35:35,100 --> 00:35:37,000
to help. 
Let's do this together. 

702
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:39,800
We also had an explicit 
communication guideline, how to 

703
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,700
approach the teams because we 
didn't want to impose ourselves 

704
00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:46,300
like, hey, Rudolph, the experts,
we tell you how things work, 

705
00:35:46,500 --> 00:35:49,100
know what they No, their 
contacts, they know the reasons 

706
00:35:49,100 --> 00:35:51,200
why things are currently as they
are. 

707
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,300
I bet they're all a lot of 
things that are working so this 

708
00:35:54,300 --> 00:35:56,200
appreciate what's working 
already for them in their 

709
00:35:56,200 --> 00:36:00,200
context is also right for 
turning up the good but also 

710
00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,900
seeing if we can find custom 
tailored Solutions. 

711
00:36:03,200 --> 00:36:06,000
So something that's really 
helping them and I think I was 

712
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,300
big part of Getting By and also 
from the single individuals on 

713
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:11,500
the team that we're not coming 
from outside. 

714
00:36:11,500 --> 00:36:14,600
Basically, I mean, not outside 
from the company but outside 

715
00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,000
from their team, which is 
sometimes if teams also 

716
00:36:17,100 --> 00:36:21,400
Independent quite similar but to
not go there and like just 

717
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,000
overall everything but really 
make clear we're here to help. 

718
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,000
We're here to help in your way 
however you want to frame it. 

719
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:31,500
We have custom tailored 
workshops or whatever you need, 

720
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:34,800
but in the end it's also up to 
them to take action and to 

721
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,600
really come up with those 
experiments were there to help 

722
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,700
but we're not imposing but 
she'll there was a big pot to 

723
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,300
first get measurement board but 
also to really how you push 

724
00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:46,900
teams or how you push people. 
I think mix. 

725
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,100
A whole world of difference. 
If they would like to really 

726
00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:54,300
join them and work together. 
Or if you feel older someone 

727
00:36:54,400 --> 00:36:58,000
threatening us, you brought this
point as like an ownership 

728
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,100
thing, right? 
So the experiment should be 

729
00:37:00,100 --> 00:37:03,800
owned not by leadership 
management, order change agent 

730
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,100
group, but it's actually from 
the team themselves. 

731
00:37:06,100 --> 00:37:09,100
They array need to be on board 
versus you mention about this. 

732
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:11,300
Should get a binder should 
understand and they shoot one 

733
00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,300
this, when I read your blog, 
it's about focus on inspiring 

734
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:16,800
them. 
Getting them want to change. 

735
00:37:17,100 --> 00:37:19,600
They can see their pain points 
again coming back to the 

736
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:22,800
transparency where they are and 
their pain points and they can 

737
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,600
see really this change affecting
them. 

738
00:37:25,100 --> 00:37:28,000
I also learn from my reading. 
Actually, if you want to create 

739
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,600
long-lasting change, it should 
come from within this, you're 

740
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,000
not come from external, impose, 
maybe you have Consultants, 

741
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,800
maybe you have resolution from 
some other people, it should 

742
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,900
come from within and only, then 
you can make a long lasting 

743
00:37:39,900 --> 00:37:42,300
change that can be impactful for
your life. 

744
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,500
So, thanks for sharing about 
this ownership thing. 

745
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,600
The other thing about 
experimenting, right? 

746
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,500
You brought Up about failure. 
Many people couldn't forego 

747
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:52,700
about this failure, but when you
have spend your effort, spend 

748
00:37:52,700 --> 00:37:55,700
your time and resources, and in 
the end it failed. 

749
00:37:55,900 --> 00:37:58,700
We all have this tendency of 
sunk cost fallacy. 

750
00:37:59,100 --> 00:38:00,500
They must be something that 
works. 

751
00:38:00,700 --> 00:38:02,600
So we kind of like have our own 
biased. 

752
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,900
So tell us more about this sunk 
cost fallacy and what we should 

753
00:38:05,900 --> 00:38:08,700
do instead in order to frame the
experiment. 

754
00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:12,300
More objectively. 
Yes, that's another part of the 

755
00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:13,900
struggles, when framing 
experiments. 

756
00:38:14,100 --> 00:38:17,300
Also, when just coming up with 
hypotheses, what you want, You 

757
00:38:17,300 --> 00:38:20,100
to keep our bodies. 
So it is really hard to do. 

758
00:38:20,500 --> 00:38:24,800
I think, the first step is to be
aware of our biases and reflect 

759
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,500
on them, for example, some cost 
fallacy. 

760
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,500
Well, we missed it already has a
large, so we definitely want to 

761
00:38:30,500 --> 00:38:32,900
bring it to the end. 
Although it might all be worth 

762
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:34,600
it. 
Actually, might not be leading 

763
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,600
us to better results or more 
learning. 

764
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:40,800
So, I think this one is a big 
one when it comes to having 

765
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,400
experiments frame to huge to 
largely. 

766
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,900
So what I did basically, in the 
beginning, where it started out,

767
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,200
We're how big the first one, 
which is like the cross 10 

768
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:50,900
months. 
There might have been a point 

769
00:38:50,900 --> 00:38:52,600
where it would have needed to 
stop it. 

770
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:57,100
I did not make that coul also 
biased in that very first one. 

771
00:38:57,100 --> 00:39:00,100
Another by is also came in 
because I wanted it to succeed. 

772
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:03,900
So if you look up that 
hypothesis, the formulation is 

773
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:07,000
actually Boys in itself. 
Because I mean it was my first 

774
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,700
initiative after being leveled 
up as a principal and my 

775
00:39:10,700 --> 00:39:13,600
standing and so on serve. 
I'm also in part of this reward 

776
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,000
system. 
I really wanted to make this a 

777
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,500
win and you Feet out in power, 
formulated that experiment. 

778
00:39:19,700 --> 00:39:22,500
So that's another bias that came
in and that's probably also. 

779
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:25,300
Why it didn't? 
Then cut it at some point facing

780
00:39:25,300 --> 00:39:27,300
the truth. 
Okay, it's too heavy weight. 

781
00:39:27,300 --> 00:39:29,600
We should cut it here. 
Find something else. 

782
00:39:30,200 --> 00:39:32,900
Why is this? 
Are really what drives us, 

783
00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:36,900
unconsciously and implicitly. 
So if we are not aware that 

784
00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:39,700
these are in play, it's really 
hard to catch ourselves. 

785
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:42,300
It's still hard to catch 
ourselves even though we know 

786
00:39:42,300 --> 00:39:44,900
about them. 
So I think the key Point here is

787
00:39:44,900 --> 00:39:46,900
to continue learning about 
biases. 

788
00:39:47,100 --> 00:39:49,900
How our brains work, basically, 
I mean there for good reason, 

789
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,600
but sometimes they get in our 
way. 

790
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:53,800
This is the part we need to 
learn about. 

791
00:39:54,100 --> 00:39:56,700
I can only recommend, for 
example, condiments book, 

792
00:39:56,700 --> 00:40:00,700
thinking fast and slow. 
It's one of the major resources.

793
00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:04,700
I gained a lot of insights about
the cognitive biases but again, 

794
00:40:04,700 --> 00:40:06,400
just knowing about them doesn't 
help. 

795
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,500
We also need to continuously 
reflect on our own actions and 

796
00:40:09,500 --> 00:40:13,100
really challenge ourselves and 
others uncomfortable, right? 

797
00:40:13,300 --> 00:40:16,700
To tell yourself, the big thing 
that like my work there. 

798
00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,300
Maybe was just built on biases 
and maybe it's not the best 

799
00:40:20,300 --> 00:40:23,400
thing that could be, what made 
me really come up with out. 

800
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,700
Like, for example, I wanted to 
end my standing, I wanted to 

801
00:40:26,700 --> 00:40:30,700
earn the appreciation of my 
technique peers, this definitely

802
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:34,700
influenced my decision making so
yes, we need to become aware of 

803
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:37,100
the biases. 
We need to reflect continuously.

804
00:40:37,500 --> 00:40:39,800
I'm pretty sure I'm not catching
myself always. 

805
00:40:40,100 --> 00:40:43,600
I can just hope someone else 
might also give you feedback and

806
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,300
call me out. 
Guess again that's part of 

807
00:40:46,300 --> 00:40:49,800
learning to Always improve 
ourselves as well, and our next 

808
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:52,200
experiments can only benefit 
from that as well. 

809
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:56,400
Thanks for reminding this biases
and show that we all have biases

810
00:40:56,400 --> 00:41:00,500
due to our childhood culture 
school, and things like that. 

811
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,300
So, I think the key thing is 
always be conscious about so 

812
00:41:03,300 --> 00:41:05,200
many different biases. 
That's the first thing, of 

813
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,600
course, if you don't have this 
awareness, it's really hard to 

814
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,700
catch. 
You have always unknown unknowns

815
00:41:09,700 --> 00:41:11,400
in your life, right? 
In your knowledge. 

816
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,500
So always continuously learn 
about those biases and yet sunk 

817
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:18,700
cost fallacy is sometimes. 
Dangerous, it could bring you 

818
00:41:18,700 --> 00:41:22,000
too much more worse failure. 
So to speak where you dig your 

819
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:25,600
rabbit hole and it goes nowhere.
Thanks for being vulnerable and 

820
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:27,400
sharing about your personal 
agenda. 

821
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,500
I think sometimes we do have 
that kind of tendency eagle and 

822
00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:34,300
wants to prove something and we 
just continued much on knowing 

823
00:41:34,300 --> 00:41:37,200
that one day we will achieve it 
somehow but actually sometimes 

824
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,600
that's not true because that's 
very dangerous. 

825
00:41:40,100 --> 00:41:43,000
So thanks for sharing this 
beautiful thinking about biases.

826
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,900
So let's see, let's move on to 
the next topic which is more 

827
00:41:45,900 --> 00:41:48,400
personal to you. 
So you mentioned in your career 

828
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,500
Journey that you started from 
not having the tech background, 

829
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:53,700
you leverage a lot from the 
community. 

830
00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:56,700
You started buying that book age
of testing book, we followed 

831
00:41:56,700 --> 00:41:59,300
Community. 
You met Lisa, Janet and all that

832
00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:01,800
and you kind of grew out of that
experience. 

833
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:04,800
You make a pledge. 
So to speak a few years back 

834
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,800
that you would Embark your 
journey of learning in public, I

835
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,300
think many people would have 
heard about this term learning 

836
00:42:10,300 --> 00:42:13,700
in public, tell us what made you
make that decision. 

837
00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:16,300
That's the first thing, and 
while earning in public for 

838
00:42:16,300 --> 00:42:20,700
people, Think about it. 
So once I learned about Lisa and

839
00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:24,300
Jenna back, then through the 
book and I realized, oh book, 

840
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:28,000
authors are on Twitter, they 
spread more knowledge and 

841
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:30,900
insights and what they currently
learn like them. 

842
00:42:30,900 --> 00:42:34,100
I also started to learn about oh
there are conferences or maybe I

843
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:37,600
could join at some point, the 
conference that would be really 

844
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,600
cool. 
But it would also be scary a bit

845
00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:43,200
because I don't know anyone and 
I'm very introverted and also 

846
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:46,600
grew up very shy. 
I'm not that high anymore, but 

847
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,000
it need a practice, but I'm 
still very introverted. 

848
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,600
So, like, big crowds, for 
example, like a lot of people 

849
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:56,000
but it drains energy. 
So I always need to recharge, 

850
00:42:56,500 --> 00:42:58,300
but still, I had so much 
inspiration. 

851
00:42:58,300 --> 00:43:01,600
From what I read and saw and I 
could instantly see, like the 

852
00:43:01,607 --> 00:43:04,900
results when trying things at 
work, I felt like, okay, I need 

853
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:08,100
to go to the conference where, 
for example, lease and gendered 

854
00:43:08,100 --> 00:43:11,300
are. 
So that's when I started out to 

855
00:43:11,300 --> 00:43:15,100
join my first conference, it was
like in 2015 where I had for the

856
00:43:15,100 --> 00:43:16,800
first time a connection to the 
community. 

857
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,200
T. 
It really inspired me so much 

858
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:20,800
that I felt like. 
Okay, let's come back. 

859
00:43:20,800 --> 00:43:22,200
Okay. 
Next year, same conference 

860
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:26,100
because I was really inspired 
and in 2016, something happened,

861
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:29,000
there was a really inspiring 
opening keynote about being 

862
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,500
brave and having courage and do 
something that scares you every 

863
00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:34,200
day. 
Like to really get out of your 

864
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,800
comfort zone, it was super 
inspiring and setting a tone and

865
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,200
atmosphere for the conference. 
And it happens that on that day,

866
00:43:41,500 --> 00:43:45,900
I met another person in a 
workshop for your mama G and it 

867
00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:48,500
sort of clicked. 
So Next day over lunch. 

868
00:43:48,500 --> 00:43:50,700
We found ourselves in a nice 
conversation. 

869
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:53,000
We spoke about that opening 
keynote. 

870
00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:55,000
Like, okay, what is it that 
scares you? 

871
00:43:55,300 --> 00:43:58,500
What is that? 
We realize it's very similar for

872
00:43:58,500 --> 00:44:01,300
both of us. 
We both thought about speaking 

873
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:03,400
speaking in front of people. 
Oh my gosh. 

874
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:05,700
This is so scary. 
No way. 

875
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,300
We also talked about writing a 
Blog and these kind of things, 

876
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:10,800
but they always came back to 
speaking at conferences. 

877
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:14,500
Suddenly toy looked at me and 
said, like, you know what, let's

878
00:44:14,500 --> 00:44:18,800
make a deal if you submit Look 
for next year's conference to 

879
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,200
speak at that conference, that 
work early on. 

880
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,800
I'll do the same way too, but if
I do it, you have to do it too. 

881
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:26,800
Usually, I'm not the type of 
person. 

882
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:30,700
You just agree to such a 
challenge for me, but it was so 

883
00:44:30,700 --> 00:44:33,200
inspired and like the whole 
conference and like, having 

884
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,400
courage and taking a leap and 
everything. 

885
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:37,500
And I just decided. 
Okay, let's be it. 

886
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,700
I took his hand. 
We shook made a pact for 

887
00:44:40,700 --> 00:44:43,400
instantly announces to everyone.
If I like, okay, account duck. 

888
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:44,900
I love. 
No, it's not possible. 

889
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:46,700
I don't want to disappoint 
people. 

890
00:44:47,100 --> 00:44:50,100
So we better do it. 
This was the start of something 

891
00:44:50,100 --> 00:44:53,200
beautiful happening for both of 
us because in the end for 

892
00:44:53,200 --> 00:44:55,900
learning partnership, that 
started back, then would have 

893
00:44:55,900 --> 00:44:59,600
handshake at the conference grew
into a lot of different personal

894
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:02,200
challenges. 
We did actually manage to come 

895
00:45:02,200 --> 00:45:04,300
back as conference speakers 
from, then on. 

896
00:45:04,300 --> 00:45:08,000
We both spoke now regularly, a 
conferences, but we also took up

897
00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,800
all the personal challenges to 
continue their learning in 

898
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,200
public because well, actually, 
that starting point was already 

899
00:45:14,200 --> 00:45:16,800
learning in public, in the sense
of the whole conference credit. 

900
00:45:16,900 --> 00:45:19,800
And about our deal. 
So again, I felt like a camp 

901
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:21,800
together, everybody knows it 
already. 

902
00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:23,500
So I can totally be open about 
it. 

903
00:45:23,500 --> 00:45:26,100
So it tweeted about it and made 
it the public K. 

904
00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:29,400
We have this deal going on and 
told her that the same, so it 

905
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,600
sort of started that learning in
public period. 

906
00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:34,300
But again, after we became 
conference speakers, we felt 

907
00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:37,200
like this was so successful. 
It worked so well, we have the 

908
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,100
chemistry, we can really support
each other. 

909
00:45:39,100 --> 00:45:42,700
We hold ourselves accountable. 
What next, what else? 

910
00:45:42,700 --> 00:45:45,400
Could we try? 
And then we started but judging 

911
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:48,600
challenges, but still, 
Supporting each other and that 

912
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,100
made me then set out to you. 
Having a lot of pair testing 

913
00:45:51,100 --> 00:45:54,300
sessions for example, with other
people, other challenges, 

914
00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:57,400
followed always continuing 
learning in public publishing. 

915
00:45:57,400 --> 00:45:59,900
Also, my blog posts to gives, 
there was a side effect, 

916
00:45:59,900 --> 00:46:02,600
actually same conference. 
I also started can also time to 

917
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,900
stop my block. 
Something that I also thought 

918
00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:07,700
about for years before, but I 
never, they're doing it. 

919
00:46:08,100 --> 00:46:11,300
But I doubt conference with the 
speaking talked, basically, I 

920
00:46:11,300 --> 00:46:14,900
also had a great conversation 
with someone who said he told 

921
00:46:14,900 --> 00:46:16,700
me. 
Why are you scared of? 

922
00:46:16,900 --> 00:46:19,700
Building a block, just do it for
yourself, just for your own 

923
00:46:19,700 --> 00:46:22,400
learning, but for anyone else, 
just do it for yourself. 

924
00:46:22,700 --> 00:46:25,700
And I really freed me up to not 
think of an audience or who 

925
00:46:25,700 --> 00:46:29,500
might that provide value for all
the thoughts that hindered me 

926
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:32,600
always from starting to put 
myself out there basically and 

927
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,400
just do it. 
Ever since only good came out of

928
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:39,400
it, then I can just recommend to
give it at least try and see if 

929
00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:41,300
it's for you. 
Because again we're all 

930
00:46:41,300 --> 00:46:44,200
different persons, it might or 
might not work but if you never 

931
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,700
tried it, she don't know for me.
It ruined. 

932
00:46:47,700 --> 00:46:49,700
It looks like another 
experiment, but for your 

933
00:46:49,700 --> 00:46:52,500
personal thing, first of all, 
thanks for sharing this story, 

934
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:55,500
it is very beautiful. 
So there are few key things from

935
00:46:55,500 --> 00:46:57,100
me when I heard about your 
story. 

936
00:46:57,300 --> 00:46:59,500
Accountability is. 
So you have a partner where you 

937
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,200
make a pledge to each other and 
you never back out. 

938
00:47:02,300 --> 00:47:03,400
That's another good thing, 
right? 

939
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:05,700
You never back up. 
Another thing is about getting 

940
00:47:05,700 --> 00:47:09,300
inspired so you were inspired by
that first keynote and you 

941
00:47:09,300 --> 00:47:11,900
mentioned something about Doom 
things that always scare you. 

942
00:47:12,200 --> 00:47:14,300
I think this is also mentioned 
by Tim Ferriss. 

943
00:47:14,300 --> 00:47:16,800
If I'm not wrong that if you 
want to grow rapidly. 

944
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,100
We always have to try to do 
things that always scares us. 

945
00:47:20,300 --> 00:47:23,500
I myself, personally, I admit, I
was also very introverted. 

946
00:47:23,500 --> 00:47:26,500
I couldn't bear standing in 
front of a lot of audience, even

947
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,700
in meetups. 
I'll tend to sit in the corner 

948
00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:31,400
or something like that. 
But then, I think the challenge 

949
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,100
is do something that scares us. 
I think there are so many good 

950
00:47:35,100 --> 00:47:38,200
things about learning in public,
many people preach about it, but

951
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,400
many people get this first 
challenge. 

952
00:47:40,600 --> 00:47:44,100
I want to learn in public but 
the confidence is not there 

953
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:47,400
because when you started, we can
assume the many People don't 

954
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:49,800
have the skills, they don't have
the experience, they may not 

955
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:52,100
even know what to talk about. 
So they don't have the 

956
00:47:52,100 --> 00:47:55,900
confidence about doing this. 
So you have also a good advice 

957
00:47:55,900 --> 00:47:58,400
here for people who do not have 
that kind of technical 

958
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,200
confidence, how should they 
actually start growing this 

959
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,200
confidence? 
Because also taking from your 

960
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:04,700
background, you didn't start 
from Tech. 

961
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,500
You may not have the background,
but you did it anyway, and look 

962
00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:10,100
where you are at now. 
So, maybe you can share a little

963
00:48:10,100 --> 00:48:13,900
bit about this growing technical
confidence, but Absolutely. 

964
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,600
It's sort of also accompany me 
through my career. 

965
00:48:16,900 --> 00:48:19,700
As you mentioned I didn't start 
out from that background so 

966
00:48:19,700 --> 00:48:22,100
don't have that argument 
basically to convince people. 

967
00:48:22,100 --> 00:48:25,100
Hey you know I can actually I 
have a place here and it's 

968
00:48:25,100 --> 00:48:28,400
Justified so I had that 
conversation with myself long 

969
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,800
times, it was over here's I also
presented myself as 

970
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:36,100
non-technical something, I 
stopped doing for good reasons 

971
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,400
years ago before long time, I 
was always like now, I'm not 

972
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:42,700
technical having that sort of, 
as a shield of Defense. 

973
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,700
Mechanism upfront. 
So to not let people attack me 

974
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:48,500
because I'm coming from a 
different background. 

975
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,700
The more I said I'm not 
technical. 

976
00:48:50,700 --> 00:48:53,500
Also, the more people believe 
that obviously and they also saw

977
00:48:53,500 --> 00:48:56,500
me as long technical because I'm
stating it myself. 

978
00:48:56,700 --> 00:49:01,000
I stated it out of that missing 
background out of insecurities 

979
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:03,500
uncertainties. 
I didn't have any mental. 

980
00:49:03,700 --> 00:49:07,000
There was always the loan tester
and never knew actually, am I 

981
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,600
doing well? 
And what I do or not, maybe I'm 

982
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,000
doing something completely wrong
and I just don't know about it. 

983
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:14,300
That also Into the first 
conference speaking. 

984
00:49:14,300 --> 00:49:17,200
Like, I mean, who am I to tell 
something about that? 

985
00:49:17,500 --> 00:49:20,300
Until I realize, I can just 
share my own experience because 

986
00:49:20,300 --> 00:49:23,200
that's valid. 
Anyway, nobody can challenge 

987
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,300
that because I lived through 
that and maybe it helps people 

988
00:49:26,600 --> 00:49:29,000
and learned over the years, it 
helps people actually a can 

989
00:49:29,000 --> 00:49:30,100
help. 
A lot of people. 

990
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:32,800
I'm still just sharing my own 
experiences. 

991
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,500
Part of these experiences was my
journey of growing technical, in

992
00:49:36,500 --> 00:49:39,300
a sense of growing, the 
confidence to know that I am 

993
00:49:39,300 --> 00:49:42,500
actually Technical and to be 
able to present myself as such 

994
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:46,700
The moment I started presenting 
myself as technical, which 

995
00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:49,200
again, I had inspiration from 
Andrea Kelly. 

996
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:51,300
Actually a resonated with her 
journey. 

997
00:49:51,800 --> 00:49:55,400
The moment I started presenting 
myself as technical things 

998
00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:57,900
changed. 
I grew my own confidence with 

999
00:49:57,900 --> 00:50:00,100
that again. 
It was a scary thing to do, 

1000
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,000
because it didn't yet fit like 
own internal beliefs, but I 

1001
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,400
realized people started changing
how they see me. 

1002
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,500
I realized about myself, I 
suddenly died from two. 

1003
00:50:10,500 --> 00:50:14,000
Things that scared me for a 
small walk and Or about it, and 

1004
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:17,900
actually grows in my technical 
competencies when my team 

1005
00:50:17,900 --> 00:50:21,400
changed or now, starting a new 
company for quite some time and 

1006
00:50:21,400 --> 00:50:23,600
practice presenting myself. 
Also as technical. 

1007
00:50:23,600 --> 00:50:27,000
Nobody questions me at all, it 
was all about perception and the

1008
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,200
confidence. 
I'm still the same me. 

1009
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:32,900
The difference is how I talk 
about myself and how others talk

1010
00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:36,100
about me. 
I also realized, I'm on my own 

1011
00:50:36,100 --> 00:50:38,000
Journey there. 
I can only compare myself to 

1012
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,400
myself and as much as I would 
love to compare myself to so 

1013
00:50:41,400 --> 00:50:42,600
many others who are better 
there. 

1014
00:50:42,700 --> 00:50:45,700
There who are like more advanced
there, something that I grew up 

1015
00:50:45,700 --> 00:50:49,300
with it, always turned in 
circles because I can never be 

1016
00:50:49,300 --> 00:50:53,000
as good as someone else. 
What I learned is when I try to 

1017
00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:55,700
put that aside, sometimes these 
thoughts still come up, right? 

1018
00:50:55,800 --> 00:50:58,400
It's still a Learning Journey. 
But when I tried to put these 

1019
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,800
kind of thoughts of comparing 
oneself with others aside and 

1020
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:05,200
instead just focus on our own 
progression over the years, it's

1021
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,400
a whole different picture and 
then I can't actually validly. 

1022
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:13,000
Say yes, I grew a lot in that 
area also, with my technical Is 

1023
00:51:13,500 --> 00:51:16,600
that made me also start out to 
give a workshop about that to 

1024
00:51:16,700 --> 00:51:20,700
help others because I see still 
a lot of people very unsure in 

1025
00:51:20,700 --> 00:51:23,800
whatever technical needs, right,
even though it's like, there's 

1026
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:26,300
so many things often. 
It's just used as a gatekeeping.

1027
00:51:26,300 --> 00:51:28,000
Tell him. 
So, again, it's about 

1028
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:31,500
perceptions about the confidence
part to grow that confidence 

1029
00:51:31,500 --> 00:51:34,900
that we can figure things out. 
I always get reminded about the 

1030
00:51:34,900 --> 00:51:36,500
quote. 
I learned from indeed, owns 

1031
00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:40,600
another person, I completely 
admire and I learnt a lot from 

1032
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:44,200
she's actually in never going to
To know everything there is to 

1033
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,900
know in Tack and stand in for 
the confidence to know that you 

1034
00:51:47,908 --> 00:51:51,100
can figure it out. 
Ever since she tweeted that, I'm

1035
00:51:51,100 --> 00:51:53,900
always getting reminded of that 
and I find so much wisdom in 

1036
00:51:53,900 --> 00:51:57,200
there to keep the confidence 
that we can still learn and we 

1037
00:51:57,200 --> 00:52:00,600
can still figure things out. 
We can still grow, we're not 

1038
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:02,800
that the end, there will always 
be something. 

1039
00:52:02,800 --> 00:52:04,800
We don't know, especially the 
most senior. 

1040
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,400
We grow the more. 
We know what else is there and 

1041
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:10,000
that's okay. 
Thanks for sharing your 

1042
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,700
perspective. 
I think this is very key. 

1043
00:52:11,700 --> 00:52:15,200
For many people who aspire to 
start building content, learning

1044
00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:19,100
public wants to be perceived as 
technical or expert in some 

1045
00:52:19,100 --> 00:52:22,100
fields, and yeah, I mean, being 
technical is just a matter of 

1046
00:52:22,100 --> 00:52:24,100
perception, right? 
So I think many people in Tech 

1047
00:52:24,100 --> 00:52:26,100
has this imposter syndrome, 
where we feel? 

1048
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:29,500
Somebody else is better than me.
How could I be someone like that

1049
00:52:29,500 --> 00:52:32,000
will present in big conferences 
and things like that? 

1050
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,400
I'm nobody. 
But I think you brought up a 

1051
00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:36,200
point where. 
Yeah, you always compare 

1052
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,400
yourself to yourself, right. 
It's not compare with other 

1053
00:52:38,500 --> 00:52:41,800
People, the key to that event is
about changing your identity. 

1054
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,000
I think this is also something I
learned from Atomic habit, James

1055
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:47,300
Clear book for people who 
haven't read that book. 

1056
00:52:47,500 --> 00:52:49,800
One of the suggestions that you 
have, if you want to change your

1057
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:52,700
Habit to a better way, right? 
You don't start with what 

1058
00:52:52,700 --> 00:52:56,100
activity, or why you should do 
that, but he actually change 

1059
00:52:56,100 --> 00:52:57,800
your identity. 
So think of it. 

1060
00:52:57,800 --> 00:52:59,500
Like you want to be technical, 
right? 

1061
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:02,700
So first of all, yeah, have that
identity that you are Technical 

1062
00:53:02,900 --> 00:53:05,900
and then you figure out how to 
be Technical and then you grow 

1063
00:53:05,900 --> 00:53:07,800
actually along with that kind of
identity. 

1064
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,600
Because you On a confront your 
identity so to speak. 

1065
00:53:10,700 --> 00:53:12,500
You want to follow based on 
their beliefs. 

1066
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:14,400
So thanks for sharing that 
Lizzie. 

1067
00:53:14,400 --> 00:53:16,800
I think that I learned a lot 
from your sharing your journey, 

1068
00:53:16,900 --> 00:53:19,500
it's been a pleasure. 
Unfortunately we have to wrap up

1069
00:53:19,500 --> 00:53:23,100
pretty soon but I have one last 
question that I normally ask for

1070
00:53:23,100 --> 00:53:26,000
all my guests, which is about 
three technical leadership is 

1071
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:29,800
Liam think of it just like 
advice for you to impart to the 

1072
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,300
listeners from maybe from your 
journey or experience or Lessons

1073
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:36,700
Learned because you seem to have
run so many experiments and you 

1074
00:53:36,700 --> 00:53:40,000
have meet failure along the way 
and Success is also at the same 

1075
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:41,400
time. 
So what would be your tree? 

1076
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:45,900
Technical leadership wisdom? 
They see, so I'm going to draw 

1077
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:49,600
them from another experiment 
that I actually did in 2021 

1078
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:53,900
where I could co-host and 
co-create series of leadership 

1079
00:53:53,900 --> 00:53:57,500
workshops together with cheaper.
Krishnan, that's also where one 

1080
00:53:57,500 --> 00:54:00,700
of stalled like Ricky does 
belong credit where credit is 

1081
00:54:00,700 --> 00:54:03,300
due. 
She recruitment is the one that 

1082
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:05,300
I learned most about leadership 
from. 

1083
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,800
So the three wisdoms that I'm 
about to share There is 

1084
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:11,400
something that we also 
co-created and build on each 

1085
00:54:11,400 --> 00:54:14,100
other's ideas. 
It's still following me around 

1086
00:54:14,100 --> 00:54:17,900
all sin everyday life. 
So that's why for me they're 

1087
00:54:17,900 --> 00:54:20,400
really valuable. 
I hope they also valuable for 

1088
00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:22,400
others. 
The first one is actually 

1089
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:26,400
starting with ourselves who you 
are, is how you lead that 

1090
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,300
something to remind ourselves 
leadership starts. 

1091
00:54:29,300 --> 00:54:32,300
Definitely with ourselves, we 
need to reflect on our 

1092
00:54:32,300 --> 00:54:35,500
behaviors, we need to understand
how we do things, what drives 

1093
00:54:35,500 --> 00:54:39,100
us, which kind of values that we
have, knowing Ourselves, really 

1094
00:54:39,100 --> 00:54:40,300
enables us. 
Thank you. 

1095
00:54:40,300 --> 00:54:43,600
Also to increase the impact, but
first, we need to be really 

1096
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,300
aware of ourselves. 
The second one is about the 

1097
00:54:47,300 --> 00:54:49,300
other people. 
They also suspect basically. 

1098
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:52,600
So leadership is about 
relationships in most cases, we 

1099
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,200
do lead other people. 
It's really about building. 

1100
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:59,100
Those effective relationships to
Foster them deep in them. 

1101
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:03,100
That's the key for a lot of 
things, if you want to initiate 

1102
00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:06,800
change, if you want to drive 
experiments, you first have to 

1103
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,100
have those relationships with. 
People and it could be any 

1104
00:55:10,100 --> 00:55:13,600
initiative, but same is true for
a lot of technical topics as 

1105
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:15,500
well. 
If you're missing out on those 

1106
00:55:15,500 --> 00:55:18,000
relationships. 
Good luck with Frosty feedback. 

1107
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:21,500
Loops, for example, we do have 
the power to influence their no 

1108
00:55:21,500 --> 00:55:23,900
matter if we have a formal 
leadership position or not. 

1109
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:28,200
So it's about relationships. 
The third one, the last one is 

1110
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,800
about our environment impact 
over intention. 

1111
00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:34,300
That is something that really 
drives me, especially in the 

1112
00:55:34,300 --> 00:55:37,100
last year's where I have to 
learn a lot about systems, 

1113
00:55:37,100 --> 00:55:40,300
basically. 
So, I hope people start out with

1114
00:55:40,300 --> 00:55:44,500
good intentions, most people do,
but intentions alone are not 

1115
00:55:44,500 --> 00:55:47,700
enough, because even with the 
best intentions, you can still 

1116
00:55:47,700 --> 00:55:50,300
do harm. 
And especially when using your 

1117
00:55:50,300 --> 00:55:53,200
leadership skills. 
It's really about more like 

1118
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:55,400
reducing the harm. 
Hopefully, increasing the 

1119
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:59,000
positive impact. 
So, let's shape our systems and 

1120
00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:02,000
set the scene basically grow. 
The garden to nurture that 

1121
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:06,000
culture where people can really 
Thrive to always look at the 

1122
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:09,600
impact that our decisions and 
actions can Off just before we 

1123
00:56:09,600 --> 00:56:12,000
take them. 
But even if it happened to 

1124
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,600
acknowledge potentially harmful 
impact that we done. 

1125
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:17,400
Acknowledge apologize, do better
next time. 

1126
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,300
So that's my third. 
One impact over intention is 

1127
00:56:20,300 --> 00:56:23,300
sort of a guiding principle for 
me that I always try to live up 

1128
00:56:23,300 --> 00:56:27,000
to and it's not easy but let's 
do better than the last time. 

1129
00:56:27,900 --> 00:56:30,900
Wow, it's pretty good summary, 
very beautifully said, so thanks

1130
00:56:30,900 --> 00:56:33,200
for sharing that. 
I liked the last one impact over

1131
00:56:33,200 --> 00:56:35,300
intention. 
We all have good intent. 

1132
00:56:35,300 --> 00:56:38,200
Like assume good intent anyway 
but sometimes we kind of like 

1133
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,600
the Rail from the intention and 
maybe biases and things like 

1134
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:43,300
that made us make the wrong 
decision. 

1135
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,400
So I think you're always try to 
focus on the positive impact 

1136
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,400
that you want to create in your 
life or other people's life. 

1137
00:56:49,500 --> 00:56:52,600
Thanks for sharing that message,
so Lizzie for people who are 

1138
00:56:52,607 --> 00:56:56,000
inspired by you from all this 
sharing but if they want to talk

1139
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,900
to you or maybe continue the 
conversation, is there a place 

1140
00:56:58,900 --> 00:57:02,800
where they can reach out to you?
Yes, the easiest way is for a 

1141
00:57:02,800 --> 00:57:05,100
Twitter in case you happen to 
have a Twitter account, my 

1142
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:08,000
direct messages are open. 
So feel free to contact me 

1143
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:11,000
through. 
Another option is LinkedIn. 

1144
00:57:11,200 --> 00:57:13,300
However, for LinkedIn are not as
active. 

1145
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:16,400
So, in case you are reaching out
there, please leave a message as

1146
00:57:16,400 --> 00:57:18,500
well, so I can really set that 
in context. 

1147
00:57:18,500 --> 00:57:21,600
Otherwise, I'm not really active
as I shared you can. 

1148
00:57:21,700 --> 00:57:25,900
Obviously also follow my content
on my blog and website, maybe we

1149
00:57:25,900 --> 00:57:28,800
meet each other at one of the 
other conference or meet up. 

1150
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:31,400
So that's another chance to 
connect in person. 

1151
00:57:31,600 --> 00:57:34,400
We're just join me on my paring 
session for example. 

1152
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,500
So I'm sure if you still 
continue your pledge being in 

1153
00:57:37,500 --> 00:57:41,200
conferences, people would see 
you in any kind of testing or 

1154
00:57:41,200 --> 00:57:45,400
quality kind of conferences and 
I do recommend Lisa's blog as 

1155
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,000
well. 
There are so many just about 

1156
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:50,100
testing because they're like I 
said in the beginning DC has 

1157
00:57:50,100 --> 00:57:53,800
summarized the latest stage of 
testing day in such a beautiful 

1158
00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:55,700
illustrations written by her. 
Okay. 

1159
00:57:55,700 --> 00:57:57,500
So it's created by her in real 
time. 

1160
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,900
That is really an admirable 
skill to have. 

1161
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,800
So thanks again Lucy for your 
time. 

1162
00:58:02,100 --> 00:58:04,300
I really enjoyed this 
conversation again. 

1163
00:58:04,300 --> 00:58:06,500
I hope you feel inspired by your
message today. 

1164
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:09,500
Thank you so much for having Me 
with a pleasure. 

1165
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:15,400
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying, right 

1166
00:58:15,400 --> 00:58:17,900
until the end if you highly 
enjoyed it. 

1167
00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:20,400
I would appreciate if you share 
it with your friends and 

1168
00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:23,300
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1169
00:58:23,300 --> 00:58:25,400
this episode. 
And if you are new to the 

1170
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,400
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1171
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,400
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot in order to 

1172
00:58:31,400 --> 00:58:34,700
grow this podcast better. 
You can also find the full show 

1173
00:58:34,700 --> 00:58:38,000
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at tackling 

1174
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:40,200
journal. 
The death website, including the

1175
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:43,800
full transcript Arresting courts
and links to the resources 

1176
00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:47,700
mention from the conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1177
00:58:47,700 --> 00:58:50,000
subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on package. 

1178
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:53,600
You know, dot f to get notified 
for any future episodes. 

1179
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:56,500
Stay tuned for the next package,
you know, episode. 

1180
00:58:56,800 --> 00:58:58,500
And until then, goodbye.