1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:03,200 Techly Journal has a mission to elevate the technical leadership 2 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,920 and excellence of all engineers in collaboration with the one 3 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,040 and only Patrick KWA. I am excited to share that I'm 4 00:00:10,040 --> 00:00:12,960 organizing 2 workshops in Singapore in early November 5 00:00:12,960 --> 00:00:17,120 2023, The Technical Leadership Master Class and the Engineering 6 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,240 Manager Essentials. You can find more information at 7 00:00:20,240 --> 00:00:24,120 techly journal dot def slash courses slash TL and Techly 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,600 journal dot deaf slash courses EM. 9 00:00:27,350 --> 00:00:30,190 Register early while the early birth discount is available. 10 00:00:30,590 --> 00:00:33,230 See you there. Hey, a quick message for those 11 00:00:33,230 --> 00:00:36,670 of you who are listening to this episode on Spotify, I have a 12 00:00:36,670 --> 00:00:40,590 small favor to ask. Spotify now allows mobile users 13 00:00:40,590 --> 00:00:43,710 to rate podcasts. I would really appreciate it if 14 00:00:43,710 --> 00:00:46,150 you can take a quick pause to go to the Technically Journal 15 00:00:46,150 --> 00:00:49,390 podcast page and leave your favorite show your best rating 16 00:00:49,470 --> 00:00:52,110 on Spotify. It will help me a lot to get 17 00:00:52,110 --> 00:00:54,750 this podcast to reach more people on the platform. 18 00:00:55,190 --> 00:00:57,880 Thanks a lot. Declarative modeling for me is 19 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:03,160 really like you get the relevant people into a room to solve a 20 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,120 problem, or at least to get on the same page about a problem. 21 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:09,760 Either you're not usually typically solving it in one 22 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:13,160 session or by doing this, but at least you are getting on the 23 00:01:13,160 --> 00:01:15,840 same page about what it is that you're solving and getting some 24 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:19,040 directions for that solution. So the key here is that you 25 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:22,510 invite who needs to be there. Basically, it's everyone who is 26 00:01:22,510 --> 00:01:26,150 relevant to that specific part or that specific topic that you 27 00:01:26,150 --> 00:01:28,430 are doing the collaborative modeling session on. 28 00:01:28,830 --> 00:01:31,110 And that makes it complex because they all have different 29 00:01:31,110 --> 00:01:32,510 understanding of what you're doing. 30 00:01:32,510 --> 00:01:34,470 They all have different interpretations, different 31 00:01:34,470 --> 00:01:35,950 assumptions. They bring in different 32 00:01:36,310 --> 00:01:38,310 interests. But you do need them because you 33 00:01:38,310 --> 00:01:40,430 want to be on the same page about what it is that you're 34 00:01:40,430 --> 00:01:49,190 actually solving. Hey everyone, my name is Henry 35 00:01:49,190 --> 00:01:53,000 Suryaviravan. And you're listening to the 36 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:56,400 Technical Journal Podcast, the show where I'll be bringing you, 37 00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:59,640 the greatest technical leaders, practitioners and thought 38 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,080 leaders in the industry to discuss about their journey, 39 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:07,840 ideas and practices that we all can learn and apply to build a 40 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,400 highly performing technical team and to make an impact in your 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,560 personal work. So let's dive into our journal. 42 00:02:19,780 --> 00:02:21,780 Hello again to all of you, my listeners. 43 00:02:22,060 --> 00:02:25,340 Welcome back to the Techly Journal Podcast, the podcast 44 00:02:25,340 --> 00:02:27,420 where you can learn about technical leadership and 45 00:02:27,420 --> 00:02:30,900 excellence from my conversations with great thought leaders in 46 00:02:30,900 --> 00:02:33,380 the tech industry. If this is your first time 47 00:02:33,380 --> 00:02:36,340 listening, please subscribe on your favorite podcast app. 48 00:02:36,780 --> 00:02:39,740 You can also subscribe to Techly Journal contents on various 49 00:02:39,740 --> 00:02:42,700 social media on LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram. 50 00:02:43,220 --> 00:02:46,700 And for video contents you can also subscribe on YouTube and 51 00:02:46,700 --> 00:02:49,100 TikTok. If you have been enjoying Techni 52 00:02:49,100 --> 00:02:52,460 journal contents and would like to contribute, support my work 53 00:02:52,460 --> 00:02:56,060 by either buying me a coffee at technijournal dot deaf slash tip 54 00:02:56,460 --> 00:02:59,540 or becoming a patron at technijournal dot deaf slash 55 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:02,860 patron. My guests for today's episode 56 00:03:03,020 --> 00:03:05,780 are Evelyn, Fanquel and Hin Versace. 57 00:03:06,380 --> 00:03:09,340 Evelyn and Hin are the co-authors of Collaborative 58 00:03:09,340 --> 00:03:12,540 Software Design, How to Facilitate Domain Modeling 59 00:03:12,540 --> 00:03:15,480 Decisions. In this episode we discussed 60 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,520 collaborative software design and why we need it in software 61 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,080 development. Evelyn and Hin started by 62 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,240 explaining the Kinafin framework in software development and the 63 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,280 importance of having heuristics for making quick decisions. 64 00:03:27,720 --> 00:03:30,640 We then dive deep into discussing what collaborative 65 00:03:30,640 --> 00:03:34,120 modeling is, how to get people involved to collaborate, and the 66 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:35,960 important role of the facilitator. 67 00:03:36,480 --> 00:03:39,400 We also talk about the socio technical aspects and skills 68 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,680 required in collaborative modeling, in particular 69 00:03:43,100 --> 00:03:46,460 understanding the influence of cognitive bias and ranking. 70 00:03:47,020 --> 00:03:49,660 Towards the end, we discussed when we should do a 71 00:03:49,660 --> 00:03:53,580 collaborative modeling exercise, how to structure it, and tips 72 00:03:53,580 --> 00:03:57,100 for doing it remotely. I hope you enjoy listening to 73 00:03:57,100 --> 00:04:01,220 this episode and understand why collaborative modeling exercises 74 00:04:01,380 --> 00:04:04,500 can be the key difference for you to build better software. 75 00:04:05,060 --> 00:04:08,740 From my experience, it is extremely crucial to bring all 76 00:04:08,740 --> 00:04:12,280 the relevant people into a discussion and get everybody on 77 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,160 the same picture about the solution to build and clarity on 78 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,399 the expectations from multiple stakeholders. 79 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,399 And if you think someone else will benefit from this episode, 80 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:24,240 please help share it with your colleagues, your friends and 81 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,640 communities and leave a 5 star rating and review on Apple 82 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:31,040 Podcast and Spotify. It will help me a lot in getting 83 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,560 more people discover and listen to this podcast and I really, 84 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,640 really appreciate it. Let's go to my conversation with 85 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,600 Evelyn and Hin after quick words from our sponsor. 86 00:04:41,250 --> 00:04:42,930 Are you looking for a new cool swag? 87 00:04:43,370 --> 00:04:46,730 Techly Juno now offers you some swags that you can purchase 88 00:04:46,730 --> 00:04:49,250 online. These swags are printed on 89 00:04:49,250 --> 00:04:52,810 demand based on your preference and will be delivered safely to 90 00:04:52,810 --> 00:04:55,730 you all over the world. Where shipping is available, 91 00:04:56,210 --> 00:04:59,170 check out all the cool swags available by visiting Techly 92 00:04:59,170 --> 00:05:02,650 Juno dot dev slash shop and don't forget to break yourself 93 00:05:02,770 --> 00:05:04,890 once you receive. Any of those swags? 94 00:05:05,330 --> 00:05:07,650 This episode is brought to you by Miro. 95 00:05:08,300 --> 00:05:11,380 As you will hear in this episode later on about the benefits of 96 00:05:11,380 --> 00:05:15,020 doing collaborative modeling, one challenge is for teams to 97 00:05:15,020 --> 00:05:17,860 find the tools that can support doing this collaborative 98 00:05:17,860 --> 00:05:21,300 modeling session effectively, especially when you have some 99 00:05:21,300 --> 00:05:24,980 team members joining remotely. Throughout my experience running 100 00:05:24,980 --> 00:05:28,540 collaborative modeling and similar other exercises, there 101 00:05:28,540 --> 00:05:32,860 is only one tool that I trust and keep coming back to and that 102 00:05:32,860 --> 00:05:37,650 is Miro Miro. At the first glance, it might 103 00:05:37,650 --> 00:05:41,050 seem just like a simple digital whiteboard, but Mirrors 104 00:05:41,050 --> 00:05:43,170 capabilities run far beyond that. 105 00:05:43,530 --> 00:05:46,610 It's a visual collaboration tool where the whole team can build 106 00:05:46,610 --> 00:05:50,370 on each other's ideas and create something innovative together 107 00:05:50,370 --> 00:05:52,690 from anywhere. You can quickly start 108 00:05:52,690 --> 00:05:55,810 collaborating within 90 seconds without having everyone 109 00:05:55,810 --> 00:05:57,730 registered as a mirror user before. 110 00:05:58,130 --> 00:06:01,570 There are also more than 300 predefined templates you can use 111 00:06:01,570 --> 00:06:04,130 to kick start your collaboration within seconds. 112 00:06:04,530 --> 00:06:08,330 And these templates include top use cases commonly used such as 113 00:06:08,330 --> 00:06:11,770 Agile and design thinking workshops, strategy and planning 114 00:06:11,770 --> 00:06:15,250 exercises, brainstorming and ideation sessions. 115 00:06:15,650 --> 00:06:18,970 So the next time you are looking for a digital tool to support 116 00:06:18,970 --> 00:06:22,690 your online collaboration or brainstorming sessions, do give 117 00:06:22,690 --> 00:06:25,010 Mira a try. You can Sign up today at 118 00:06:25,010 --> 00:06:30,950 mira.com Podcast. Miro.com/podcast and your first 119 00:06:30,950 --> 00:06:34,310 three mirror boards are free forever when you sign up now. 120 00:06:34,990 --> 00:06:36,350 Hey everyone, welcome to another new. 121 00:06:36,350 --> 00:06:38,110 Episode of the Technic to Know podcast. 122 00:06:38,150 --> 00:06:41,510 Today I have two guests with me co-authors of the book titled 123 00:06:41,510 --> 00:06:44,630 Collaborative Software Design How to Facilitate Domain 124 00:06:44,630 --> 00:06:48,590 Modeling Decisions. So Evelyn and Hin are with me 125 00:06:48,590 --> 00:06:50,750 today. So happy to have both of you 126 00:06:50,750 --> 00:06:55,940 here. So maybe let's start by hearing 127 00:06:55,940 --> 00:06:58,460 more about your story, right? Any highlights or turning points 128 00:06:58,460 --> 00:07:01,180 you have in your career? Yeah, I'll start. 129 00:07:01,420 --> 00:07:07,220 So I'm a software developer. I did that for about 17 years 130 00:07:07,540 --> 00:07:10,180 and then I moved to consulting for Artlin. 131 00:07:10,300 --> 00:07:14,420 That's been great as well. If I had to give some advice to 132 00:07:14,460 --> 00:07:17,940 anyone listening, it's like I kind of rushed to my first job. 133 00:07:18,100 --> 00:07:21,740 I was kind of happy to have one. But that first job really sort 134 00:07:21,740 --> 00:07:24,940 of, you know, sets the pace for everything else as well. 135 00:07:25,140 --> 00:07:28,420 So I wish I had taken a bit more time there because I was still 136 00:07:28,420 --> 00:07:30,340 young and little with my parents and things like that. 137 00:07:30,340 --> 00:07:32,740 So that was okay. So, you know, take the time to 138 00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:36,380 get that first job, a writer, get a new job, right. 139 00:07:36,860 --> 00:07:39,980 If you have a liberty to do that, that would be my advice 140 00:07:39,980 --> 00:07:41,490 there. All right. 141 00:07:41,570 --> 00:07:45,370 So yeah, Evelyn, I am. Well, basically, I sometimes 142 00:07:45,370 --> 00:07:48,810 describe myself as a social scientist who got lost in it. 143 00:07:48,890 --> 00:07:51,010 I kind of accidentally ended up here. 144 00:07:51,290 --> 00:07:54,210 So I studied humans. I studied how they work, how 145 00:07:54,210 --> 00:07:56,810 they think, how they behave. I spent a lot of time studying 146 00:07:57,010 --> 00:08:00,450 behavioral science, cognitive bias, cognitive psychology, that 147 00:08:00,450 --> 00:08:02,730 sort of stuff. And then during my master 148 00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:05,770 thesis, I I ended up at a very technical company. 149 00:08:05,930 --> 00:08:09,010 And that's where I really fell in love with the IT, let's say. 150 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:13,320 At this point, I'm a consultant and I kind of have a well do 151 00:08:13,320 --> 00:08:16,520 things that I'm focusing on. So sometimes it's more a focus 152 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,840 on the strategic software delivery part and sometimes it's 153 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,120 really focused on the behavioral change part. 154 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:25,800 And I really love that balance. So I really, I'm a big fan of 155 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,560 all of the social dynamics that are flying around, especially 156 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:30,080 when we're doing collaborative modeling. 157 00:08:30,080 --> 00:08:32,760 But we'll get to that in this conversation as well. 158 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:37,120 So yeah, my advice, or my most important lesson that I've 159 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:40,850 learned, I would say is well. It doesn't really matter where 160 00:08:40,850 --> 00:08:43,770 you think you will end up. It can go either way and it can 161 00:08:43,770 --> 00:08:46,530 very positively surprise you. I mean, I never thought I would 162 00:08:46,650 --> 00:08:49,010 end up here and let alone writing a book with these 163 00:08:49,130 --> 00:08:52,170 brilliant two other authors that are way more technical than I 164 00:08:52,170 --> 00:08:55,050 am. But it works and and I'm liking 165 00:08:55,050 --> 00:08:57,090 it. So yeah, let you let yourself be 166 00:08:57,090 --> 00:08:59,570 surprised every now and then. I think that's the main thing 167 00:08:59,570 --> 00:09:01,850 there. Thanks for sharing the story. 168 00:09:01,850 --> 00:09:04,610 Right so it's very interesting. So one is from software 169 00:09:04,610 --> 00:09:07,170 engineering background, one is from social scientists. 170 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:09,560 There's another call from the book, actually. 171 00:09:09,560 --> 00:09:11,640 Kenny, right? Yeah, I think he has the same 172 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,400 background on me in software development primarily. 173 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:17,400 Yeah. And he's a real expert as well 174 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,880 on Domain Driven Design. That really is just fashion 175 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:21,840 there. And yeah, so I think he and 176 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,720 Kenny are a bit similar, but we're all sharing the same 177 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:26,960 interest in the social part. So I think that's a good 178 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:28,680 balance. Yeah. 179 00:09:29,170 --> 00:09:31,610 So I think for the audience here, you can already tell, 180 00:09:31,610 --> 00:09:34,010 right, what kind of session that we are going to have here. 181 00:09:34,050 --> 00:09:37,170 We'll be talking a lot about collaborative decisions about 182 00:09:37,250 --> 00:09:40,450 software design. So I think the first thing in 183 00:09:40,610 --> 00:09:43,050 software development, right? Why do you think this kind of 184 00:09:43,050 --> 00:09:46,970 collaborative modeling is very useful and what kind of problems 185 00:09:47,010 --> 00:09:50,930 it tries to solve? So part of the job of being a 186 00:09:50,930 --> 00:09:54,970 software developer is to actually understand the problem 187 00:09:54,970 --> 00:09:58,300 that you're trying to solve. Fire software, you know, that's 188 00:09:58,300 --> 00:10:02,260 what we do and that is very difficult And I think that it 189 00:10:02,260 --> 00:10:05,620 sort of has a long history of trial and error. 190 00:10:06,020 --> 00:10:09,060 I have in my career long history of trial and error. 191 00:10:09,060 --> 00:10:14,060 I had interviews, I had just written requirements and you 192 00:10:14,060 --> 00:10:16,500 know whatever I built it wasn't quite right. 193 00:10:16,860 --> 00:10:19,860 So for me, you know, I felt like there has to be a better way to 194 00:10:19,860 --> 00:10:21,740 do this. So I came across you know, 195 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:24,620 Domain Driven Design and in their collaborative modeling is 196 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:27,400 this really big thing. Which they state that, you know, 197 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,720 take your stakeholders, mostly your domain experts, go sit in a 198 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:36,880 room with them and visualize their problems and really focus 199 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,480 on trying to understand their problems 1st and then make sure 200 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,800 that everyone on your team actually has that shared 201 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:47,720 understanding. I think that's, you know, key to 202 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,320 collaborative modeling and that's what it's trying to solve 203 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:53,760 that if I say, oh, it's a lovely day. 204 00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:56,470 We all think maybe something different. 205 00:10:56,470 --> 00:11:00,030 It was like, oh, she's sarcastic and so interpretations or how we 206 00:11:00,030 --> 00:11:02,670 see the world messes up how we understand it. 207 00:11:02,830 --> 00:11:06,710 And Collaborative modeling tries to help with that by visualizing 208 00:11:06,710 --> 00:11:10,630 it right in front of us so that we're all on the same page with 209 00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:14,110 regards to the problem, and then with regards to how to design 210 00:11:14,110 --> 00:11:16,520 that solution. Yeah, one of the key points 211 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:18,880 there is the domain experts that you're mentioning. 212 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,400 I mean, it's you putting every domain experts together in a 213 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:25,080 room because you want them to create that shared reality. 214 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,040 Let's say you want to create that shared image or version of 215 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,280 what you're doing. But it also means that you 216 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,760 cannot just talk about in a language that is understandable 217 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:36,640 for just one part of the group. You have to tell a story, let's 218 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:37,920 say. So by visualizing it. 219 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:40,330 It really helps in. Getting all of these 220 00:11:40,330 --> 00:11:43,250 stakeholders and domain experts like on the same page about what 221 00:11:43,250 --> 00:11:45,570 you're doing more in a narrative way, let's say. 222 00:11:45,570 --> 00:11:48,490 And that's I think where collaborative modeling is really 223 00:11:48,650 --> 00:11:52,210 unique and the visualization part is extremely powerful in 224 00:11:52,210 --> 00:11:55,010 that sense. Yeah, one thing I pick up, I was 225 00:11:55,050 --> 00:11:57,690 a software developer a lot as well in the past. 226 00:11:57,690 --> 00:12:00,050 So I think the key thing that I pick up here is a shared 227 00:12:00,050 --> 00:12:02,410 understanding, right? Putting people together to 228 00:12:02,410 --> 00:12:04,770 actually come up with the same understanding. 229 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,680 So I think maybe many of us here would have seen a cartoon, 230 00:12:08,680 --> 00:12:11,720 right, where you have three people drawing the same thing 231 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:13,280 but ended up with the different things. 232 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,680 So I think the same thing in software engineering, right? 233 00:12:15,680 --> 00:12:18,920 So we have this perceptions if requirements especially is 234 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:20,920 passed down from someone to the others, right? 235 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,320 So it may not end up with the same expectations. 236 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,400 So maybe let's start from there, because I think still 237 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:30,840 traditionally some people think that building software is a very 238 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,960 easy thing. You just write what you want. 239 00:12:33,420 --> 00:12:35,860 Some people, even randomly you can outsource, right? 240 00:12:36,100 --> 00:12:38,420 They will be able to produce what exactly what you want. 241 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:42,100 So tell us why this is a danger and in your book you touch on 242 00:12:42,100 --> 00:12:45,460 about complicated versus complex domain, so maybe if you can 243 00:12:45,460 --> 00:12:47,780 relate a little bit about that, that would be great. 244 00:12:48,740 --> 00:12:51,100 All right. I think like my first job, which 245 00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:53,940 I spoke about, it was in tank stations, right? 246 00:12:53,940 --> 00:12:56,900 So where you go with your car and you fill them up with gas. 247 00:12:57,300 --> 00:12:59,540 A gas stations I think is a better name in English. 248 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,840 And it didn't look that difficult, right? 249 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,040 People go and then a machine collects all the transactions 250 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:08,520 and then you have to work through those transactions and 251 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:11,600 you, you know have to link them to customer and someone has to 252 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,440 be able to create that customer. And so it seemed very simple in 253 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:21,680 the beginning, but we failed to deliver what the people actually 254 00:13:21,680 --> 00:13:25,200 needed there because you know, they get phone calls, they get 255 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,440 all that sort of thing. So whenever you say that, hey, 256 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:30,910 something looks simple. It's probably because you're not 257 00:13:31,110 --> 00:13:34,390 digging deep enough. I think if a problem is worth 258 00:13:34,390 --> 00:13:37,910 creating software for, then by default you could just can't say 259 00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:41,350 anymore that it's simple because they need assistance for it in 260 00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:45,790 some way with software and some problems are complicated and you 261 00:13:45,790 --> 00:13:49,750 need to really dig and understand how they work. 262 00:13:50,180 --> 00:13:54,020 And some problems are complex. And with complex in this case we 263 00:13:54,020 --> 00:13:57,140 mean that we're not quite sure how it is supposed to work 264 00:13:57,140 --> 00:13:59,420 right. We we're sort of going on 265 00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:03,900 unexplored territory and collaborative modeling is very 266 00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:08,260 good at how I see it is comparing that complex in too 267 00:14:08,300 --> 00:14:11,730 complicated. Like we experiment, we try 268 00:14:11,730 --> 00:14:14,210 things, it's very cheap because most of the time you know we're 269 00:14:14,210 --> 00:14:18,490 doing it with post it or some cards laying on the table and 270 00:14:18,490 --> 00:14:23,130 we're trying to figure out how this this could and should work 271 00:14:23,450 --> 00:14:26,810 and how it should change. So I think that's you know why 272 00:14:26,890 --> 00:14:31,050 often the simple, complex, complicated and chaos model gets 273 00:14:31,090 --> 00:14:34,250 added to collaborative modeling to show that you know when 274 00:14:34,250 --> 00:14:37,310 something is complex. You sort of need to get it 275 00:14:37,310 --> 00:14:40,350 complicated because you need to create software. 276 00:14:40,550 --> 00:14:43,390 Before, I think that actually might be a heuristic, right? 277 00:14:43,390 --> 00:14:46,590 If you as soon as you start to think that something is pretty 278 00:14:46,590 --> 00:14:49,750 easy or simple, then that's probably your cue that you 279 00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:53,270 should dig deeper and that you should put a bit more time into 280 00:14:53,670 --> 00:14:56,470 understand what you're doing. I mean, you hear it a lot, 281 00:14:56,470 --> 00:14:57,990 right? In groups and in companies and 282 00:14:57,990 --> 00:15:00,710 teams like yeah, everyone will understand this or everyone is 283 00:15:00,710 --> 00:15:03,900 on the same page about this. That's your cue that something 284 00:15:03,900 --> 00:15:07,020 is probably going on underneath there that you should dig into. 285 00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:10,020 Yeah, you mentioned this keyword heuristic, right? 286 00:15:10,020 --> 00:15:12,140 So first of all, thank you again for explaining that. 287 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:15,700 Complex and complicated and simple most likely. 288 00:15:15,940 --> 00:15:18,660 I think in software anything that is simple is suspicious, 289 00:15:18,660 --> 00:15:20,820 right. So which are even brought up as 290 00:15:20,860 --> 00:15:23,060 a heuristics, right? You mentioned about this keyword 291 00:15:23,060 --> 00:15:24,740 which you mentioned quite a lot in your book. 292 00:15:25,020 --> 00:15:27,820 So maybe explain a little bit for people here, what do you 293 00:15:27,820 --> 00:15:30,460 mean by heuristics and how can we use that in software 294 00:15:30,460 --> 00:15:33,650 development? And so in general, I think like 295 00:15:33,650 --> 00:15:37,050 the most simple explanation or the way that we use heuristics 296 00:15:37,050 --> 00:15:40,450 are they are kind of rules of thumb, right, Simple rules that 297 00:15:40,450 --> 00:15:43,250 you used to make a decision or to move forward. 298 00:15:43,610 --> 00:15:46,450 And basically you can collect a lot of them based on your 299 00:15:46,450 --> 00:15:48,330 experience. So based on the stuff that 300 00:15:48,330 --> 00:15:50,890 you've done a few times or you've been in a collaborative 301 00:15:50,890 --> 00:15:53,330 modeling session and you think, hey, I've came across this 302 00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:56,730 specific situation now 10 times and I've noticed that when this 303 00:15:56,730 --> 00:15:59,140 happens. I will do this because that will 304 00:15:59,140 --> 00:16:00,620 help. So it's kind of a rule of thumb 305 00:16:00,620 --> 00:16:02,860 for yourself to see like okay this happens. 306 00:16:02,860 --> 00:16:05,660 Well, I will do this and then we can move forward. 307 00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:08,580 So you don't have to really extensively and deliberately 308 00:16:08,580 --> 00:16:10,620 think about every next step that you're taking. 309 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:13,420 So they really help you in keeping some flow and some 310 00:16:13,500 --> 00:16:15,580 progress and some movement in your session. 311 00:16:15,580 --> 00:16:18,020 And you can use them on a lot of different versions. 312 00:16:18,020 --> 00:16:20,860 I mean, we name a couple of different types of heuristics. 313 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:23,920 So you can use them in your design, let's say, but you can 314 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,960 also use them just when you are facilitating a group. 315 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,000 You think, hey this happens within the group, then that 316 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,560 means that I should probably do this to get them unstuck. 317 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,520 If you don't see any stickies moving, for example in the group 318 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:38,840 and that might be assigned to you, hey, I'm not seeing any 319 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,280 stickies moving, I will start doing it myself and hopefully 320 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,160 people then will follow me. So it's kind of a simple rule 321 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,520 that helps you in choosing what your next step is. 322 00:16:48,320 --> 00:16:50,970 Yes. If the audience wants to dig a 323 00:16:50,970 --> 00:16:55,450 bit deeper into that, Billy von Kuhn has a book where he also 324 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:59,170 talks about mostly design heuristics, and he just says 325 00:16:59,290 --> 00:17:02,490 that there are these guidelines to solve problems. 326 00:17:02,530 --> 00:17:05,250 They're fallible. It's not guaranteed you'll get 327 00:17:05,250 --> 00:17:07,050 the right or a good solution out of them. 328 00:17:07,050 --> 00:17:11,490 They're fallible, but they will help you push you to a solution 329 00:17:11,530 --> 00:17:13,450 when you need to, because software design. 330 00:17:13,450 --> 00:17:17,540 There isn't one right design. You know, so that's why writing 331 00:17:17,540 --> 00:17:20,339 software just isn't easy. There's no right solution. 332 00:17:20,339 --> 00:17:23,700 There are a lot of good solutions, and we need to try to 333 00:17:23,700 --> 00:17:25,740 figure out what works and what does work. 334 00:17:26,099 --> 00:17:29,820 And these rules just help you find ways to design. 335 00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:31,580 That as well. Yeah. 336 00:17:31,580 --> 00:17:34,420 So thanks for mentioning. There's no perfect design 337 00:17:34,420 --> 00:17:36,940 architecture. So it's all contextual, right? 338 00:17:36,940 --> 00:17:40,020 It's based on your maybe team members, your situations right, 339 00:17:40,020 --> 00:17:42,860 the complexity that you're dealing with and I think when 340 00:17:42,860 --> 00:17:45,300 you mention about heuristics and when you explain that right. 341 00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:50,070 I think to me in my mind first is it sounds like IFTTT right? 342 00:17:50,070 --> 00:17:52,830 If this then that. But in some software development 343 00:17:52,830 --> 00:17:55,590 world right people refers to it as design pattern. 344 00:17:55,870 --> 00:17:59,870 So any kind of specifics why you choose heuristics versus design 345 00:17:59,870 --> 00:18:02,710 patterns or patterns that we normally use in software 346 00:18:02,710 --> 00:18:05,350 engineering? For me, they're two very 347 00:18:05,350 --> 00:18:08,230 different things. So design patterns is you use 348 00:18:08,230 --> 00:18:10,230 that in your solution in your code. 349 00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:15,030 Design heuristics give you an idea of how it could be. 350 00:18:15,540 --> 00:18:20,100 Like, for example, one design heuristic that I often use is 351 00:18:20,100 --> 00:18:23,940 that if you have to communicate to an external system, put it in 352 00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:27,420 a separate boundary. I'll not always do that, but it 353 00:18:27,420 --> 00:18:29,700 helps you to sort of see that, OK, you know, if I have to 354 00:18:29,700 --> 00:18:33,860 communicate with this external system, I have to make sure that 355 00:18:34,060 --> 00:18:37,260 that is isolated and that that external system doesn't boil 356 00:18:37,260 --> 00:18:39,020 into the rest of my software system. 357 00:18:39,420 --> 00:18:42,420 So I'll just isolate that and I'll create a clear 358 00:18:42,460 --> 00:18:46,410 communication language. For everyone to talk to that 359 00:18:46,530 --> 00:18:50,730 interface that I made for that external system, as in design 360 00:18:50,730 --> 00:18:54,090 patterns, is then OK. I'm going to implement this like 361 00:18:54,090 --> 00:18:55,810 that because it's easier in the code. 362 00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:59,170 So for me there are two very different things, a bit on 363 00:18:59,170 --> 00:19:02,650 architecture and design in your code and so that's sort of how I 364 00:19:02,650 --> 00:19:04,090 see it. Right. 365 00:19:04,290 --> 00:19:08,210 Thanks for explaining that. So maybe let's go to the actual 366 00:19:08,410 --> 00:19:10,810 thing that you explained in a book right Collaborative 367 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:13,000 modeling. Maybe if you can describe what 368 00:19:13,120 --> 00:19:15,000 exactly? Collaborative modeling, if 369 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:16,680 there's a definition for it right? 370 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,400 And who should be the participants and what kind of 371 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,120 things can be solved by doing that? 372 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:26,000 So collaborative modeling for us, what it means or for me, I'm 373 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,880 kind of used to speaking for the three of us at this point, but I 374 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,600 will speak for myself. So collaborative modeling for me 375 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:37,280 is really like you get the relevant people into a room to 376 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,180 solve A. Problem. 377 00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:42,060 Or at least to get on the same page about a problem. 378 00:19:42,060 --> 00:19:44,740 Either you're not usually typically solving it in one 379 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:48,100 session or by doing this, but at least you are getting on the 380 00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:50,780 same page about what it is that you're solving and getting some 381 00:19:50,780 --> 00:19:54,220 directions for that solution. So the key here is indeed like 382 00:19:54,220 --> 00:19:56,460 you ask, who do you invite? Who needs to be there? 383 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,400 And he mentioned the domain experts right in the beginning. 384 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:03,360 So, yeah, there's not really a set list on these roles should 385 00:20:03,360 --> 00:20:05,640 be there. But basically it's everyone who 386 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,240 is relative to that specific part or that specific topic that 387 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:11,680 you are doing the collaborative modeling session on. 388 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:16,040 So that means that you can be in a room with people ranging from 389 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,160 all different departments, teams. 390 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:21,000 Yeah, it can be a very wide range, which also brings. 391 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,920 The complexity in, right, Because that means that you will 392 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,200 have software engineers, you have people from the leadership 393 00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:29,920 team, you have UX designers, you will have product management, 394 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,400 you have sales, marketing, legal, finance, whatever. 395 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,320 You can have everyone who is related and relevant to that 396 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:37,080 topic. And that makes it complex 397 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,200 because they all have different understanding of what you're 398 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:40,400 doing. They all have different 399 00:20:40,400 --> 00:20:42,080 interpretations, different assumptions. 400 00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,320 They bring in different interests, let's say. 401 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:47,480 I mean, for one person this can be very important and there's a 402 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,630 high stake. And for others it's like, yeah, 403 00:20:49,630 --> 00:20:52,870 but that doesn't really matter to me, so why should we focus on 404 00:20:52,870 --> 00:20:54,590 that? So it also brings to complexity 405 00:20:54,590 --> 00:20:56,750 and by inviting all these domain experts. 406 00:20:57,070 --> 00:20:59,550 But you do need them because you want to be on the same page 407 00:20:59,550 --> 00:21:02,030 about what it is that you're actually solving. 408 00:21:02,870 --> 00:21:06,510 So if I understand correctly, right, so you want to get people 409 00:21:06,510 --> 00:21:08,630 who are relevant to solve the problem in the room. 410 00:21:09,070 --> 00:21:11,110 It could be from multiple departments, right? 411 00:21:11,110 --> 00:21:14,190 As long as they are relevant to solve the problems which could 412 00:21:14,190 --> 00:21:16,030 bring complexity like what you said, right? 413 00:21:16,030 --> 00:21:18,190 Because different interests, different perspectives. 414 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,280 Different ways of solving the problems. 415 00:21:20,400 --> 00:21:23,840 But before we go into how to bridge all of them together, 416 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:26,080 right. So first, inviting all of them. 417 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:29,640 So I understand sometimes some people don't want to be involved 418 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,960 in a big meeting, right? So how can you influence people, 419 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:35,120 invite them to participate in this meeting. 420 00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,960 Oh, first of all, so explain why it's beneficial for them to 421 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,920 join. Yeah, I think I have always 422 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:46,000 tackled that with a genuine curiosity on what these people 423 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:48,650 are doing. Because they know very often the 424 00:21:48,770 --> 00:21:51,730 sort of the conversations they had before with the software 425 00:21:51,730 --> 00:21:55,650 development teams might not have gone that great or via e-mail 426 00:21:55,650 --> 00:21:58,410 and now you're pushing for a change and you know, whenever 427 00:21:58,410 --> 00:22:01,450 you want to change, people are a bit reluctant to do that. 428 00:22:01,690 --> 00:22:06,770 But I feel that if they're a bit unconvinced, then, well, you 429 00:22:06,770 --> 00:22:08,500 know. Don't invite them to The Big 430 00:22:08,500 --> 00:22:13,260 Bang meeting immediately, but go over there and ask a few, you 431 00:22:13,260 --> 00:22:15,940 know, genuine questions. Do a bit of your homework. 432 00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:19,860 If your domain expert is in finance, then you know, research 433 00:22:19,860 --> 00:22:23,180 a bit on finance and say like, look, I was reading this and I 434 00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:27,060 don't quite understand the difference between, for example, 435 00:22:27,060 --> 00:22:30,780 a savings and a debate account. Can you give me a bit more 436 00:22:30,780 --> 00:22:34,640 information on that? And if you show a genuine 437 00:22:34,720 --> 00:22:38,080 interest and you create a relationship with that person, 438 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,480 and when you have a relationship and there is trust there, then 439 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:46,160 you can ask them to do experimental things like will 440 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:48,760 you join me in a collaborative modeling session with other 441 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:52,560 domain experts so that I can, you know, do the best job I can. 442 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,560 I think the second thing, and that we often forget that is for 443 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,680 them this is extra work because their main jobs most of the time 444 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,080 is something completely different. 445 00:23:02,620 --> 00:23:06,380 And talking to software and developers is an extra add on 446 00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:09,140 for them. So understand that the burden 447 00:23:09,140 --> 00:23:12,260 that that brings. They have different priorities 448 00:23:12,260 --> 00:23:16,620 than you do, yeah. It's basically there needs to be 449 00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:19,780 a positive consequence for them to join. 450 00:23:20,060 --> 00:23:23,020 Otherwise, well, it may happen once, but they definitely won't 451 00:23:23,020 --> 00:23:25,250 come back. So it's really helpful to find 452 00:23:25,250 --> 00:23:28,850 out like what would they and then not as a group but more on 453 00:23:28,850 --> 00:23:31,490 an individual level, what would they get out of it, what's in it 454 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:34,410 for them, let's say if you can find out that and that you do 455 00:23:34,410 --> 00:23:37,170 that indeed, like he said, having those conversations 456 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:39,890 showing interest, really wanting to understand what's going on 457 00:23:39,890 --> 00:23:42,770 and if you know like what could be positive consequences or 458 00:23:42,770 --> 00:23:45,210 outcomes for them in that session, then you can also 459 00:23:45,210 --> 00:23:47,610 leverage that, right? Like, hey, this is what we also 460 00:23:47,610 --> 00:23:50,360 want to do within this session. And for some people it's really 461 00:23:50,360 --> 00:23:53,800 on the content, like they have a very big problem that they are 462 00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,840 working on and they are stuck. For some people, it's really 463 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,080 like, hey, I don't want to be left out, which is also a very 464 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,960 good positive consequence in that sense. 465 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:04,040 So it can be anything, right? So find out what it is for those 466 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:05,920 individuals and then leverage from that. 467 00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,600 That's very helpful. Yeah, and start small. 468 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,920 And as you said like and I made this mistake a few times, right. 469 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:18,320 It took a while to learn myself, but right, you sort of trying to 470 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,360 understand this whole picture and that's where you start off 471 00:24:21,360 --> 00:24:23,240 with. While what you shouldn't do is 472 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,040 create a very small circle that you know, you talk to your 473 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,160 domain experts or some other people like your users. 474 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,800 And with information, you improve your model and you 475 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,480 improve your code, and then you know you improve their 476 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:38,720 experience and then you know you push that to production and you 477 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,480 can. Very quickly show them so don't 478 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,320 start with The Big Bang. That then will take, you know, 479 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:47,400 half a year before they see any improvement. 480 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,240 Show them how powerful it can be and then slowly go for the the 481 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,080 bigger redesigns that you need their help with. 482 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,440 Right. So yeah, definitely don't always 483 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,240 start big, right? So it will be chaotic, first of 484 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:02,880 all, right. Like Evelyn said, there are a 485 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,760 lot of complexities when you involve too many people at once. 486 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:08,680 And hence you need this facilitator, right. 487 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,800 So that will be my next question. 488 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:14,400 So how should we find a good facilitator for this kind of 489 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:17,480 collaborative modeling, because the job is not easy, definitely, 490 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:19,600 especially the bigger the size of the audience. 491 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,440 Maybe if you can describe what makes a good facilitator for 492 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:25,120 this kind of collaborative modeling. 493 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,120 Yeah, now, it's definitely not an easy job. 494 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,760 It is a very fun job, at least from my perspective. 495 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:33,720 It's very fun to do. You learn a lot from it. 496 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,140 But indeed like you said, you can have everything perfectly 497 00:25:37,140 --> 00:25:40,420 arranged and prepared and and you have an idea of what you're 498 00:25:40,420 --> 00:25:42,340 going to do. And from a more technical 499 00:25:42,340 --> 00:25:45,420 perspective, everything is fine. But then the humans come in and 500 00:25:45,420 --> 00:25:48,780 yeah, everything can go wrong or be chaotic let's say. 501 00:25:48,780 --> 00:25:51,620 And then if a facilitator's job is not really do, he's not 502 00:25:51,620 --> 00:25:53,980 responding or she's not really responsible for the outcome, 503 00:25:53,980 --> 00:25:54,780 right. Like what? 504 00:25:54,780 --> 00:25:57,500 The outcome of of such a session is that they are more 505 00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:01,780 responsible for facilitating or guiding the group towards 506 00:26:01,780 --> 00:26:04,020 something. And that can also be very 507 00:26:04,460 --> 00:26:07,380 frustrating because as a facilitator you usually have an 508 00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:09,260 opinion and you also have perspective. 509 00:26:09,300 --> 00:26:13,380 I mean you are just a human, just as the rest of that chaotic 510 00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:15,460 group. But as a facilitator, it's very 511 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:17,980 important to at least act neutral, right? 512 00:26:17,980 --> 00:26:21,180 You cannot really be neutral, but you can act neutral. 513 00:26:21,180 --> 00:26:24,420 I mean no one is ever neutral because whenever I enter a room 514 00:26:24,420 --> 00:26:27,260 full of people and and they are doing collaborative modeling, I 515 00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:29,740 have an opinion about the way that they're doing stuff about 516 00:26:29,740 --> 00:26:32,820 the outcome, about the process, about the people in itself. 517 00:26:34,170 --> 00:26:36,770 So you will have an opinion that you will have a perspective on 518 00:26:36,770 --> 00:26:39,890 how things should be. But your job there is to act in 519 00:26:39,890 --> 00:26:42,810 a neutral way because as a facilitator there's also a very 520 00:26:42,810 --> 00:26:45,810 important role or function that you have there to make 521 00:26:45,810 --> 00:26:48,770 everything well at least that everyone is able to say what 522 00:26:48,770 --> 00:26:50,890 they want to say. Everything needs to be set 523 00:26:50,930 --> 00:26:53,370 right. So minority opinions or minority 524 00:26:53,370 --> 00:26:55,850 perspective should also be shared in such a session. 525 00:26:55,850 --> 00:26:58,850 And as a facilitator, if you are not neutral or you're not acting 526 00:26:58,850 --> 00:27:02,730 neutral, then it can be very unsafe for whoever has a 527 00:27:03,330 --> 00:27:06,250 different or alternative opinion or perspective to share that. 528 00:27:06,250 --> 00:27:09,530 So as a facilitator, it's your role to make it safe enough for 529 00:27:09,530 --> 00:27:11,450 everyone to speak up if they want to. 530 00:27:11,850 --> 00:27:14,090 And I think that's a very important role of the 531 00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:17,530 facilitator. Yeah, I would say like, you 532 00:27:17,530 --> 00:27:22,050 know, good social skills which can be developed like I had. 533 00:27:22,050 --> 00:27:26,330 I think somewhere like 15 years ago I did not have great social 534 00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:28,650 skills. I was very rude and I wondered 535 00:27:28,650 --> 00:27:32,710 why people were offended. But you know, I educated myself. 536 00:27:32,710 --> 00:27:35,670 I developed those social skills as much as I developed my 537 00:27:35,670 --> 00:27:38,110 technical skills. And you may have noticed, I 538 00:27:38,110 --> 00:27:41,470 don't refer to them as soft skills because they kind of seem 539 00:27:41,470 --> 00:27:43,110 easy. And for me, the social skills 540 00:27:43,110 --> 00:27:46,230 were also always, you know, the hard thing to learn about 541 00:27:46,230 --> 00:27:49,550 software development. So yeah, anyone interested in 542 00:27:49,550 --> 00:27:52,750 developing their social skills can be a facilitator. 543 00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:56,240 I think if you look at the roles that are usually inside software 544 00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,800 teams, I think if we're talking about collaborative modeling to 545 00:28:00,360 --> 00:28:05,360 design, then a architect or a team lead or a technical lead is 546 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:09,600 a very good person to take that responsibility upon themselves 547 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:12,040 to lead these sessions. Yeah. 548 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,520 And then one very important thing there that whenever you 549 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:18,080 take on such a role, I mean, especially if you're going to do 550 00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:20,900 collaborative modeling, then with your team, you cannot 551 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:23,340 facilitate and participate at the same time. 552 00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:27,740 So then you have to be very clear on which role you are 553 00:28:27,740 --> 00:28:31,420 taking on at that point, because it will be even harder to stay 554 00:28:31,420 --> 00:28:33,940 neutral whenever you also have a stake in the game, right. 555 00:28:33,940 --> 00:28:37,220 So you also have an interest there and so be very specific 556 00:28:37,220 --> 00:28:40,100 about which role that is that you are taking on. 557 00:28:40,260 --> 00:28:42,580 Are you the architect now or are you the facilitator? 558 00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:45,740 Because that implies different behavior in a way. 559 00:28:46,260 --> 00:28:48,660 I don't know about Kenny, I don't know where you live, but I 560 00:28:48,660 --> 00:28:50,860 have made that mistake. Like I stepped into this 561 00:28:50,860 --> 00:28:54,700 facilitator role and I stayed neutral, right? 562 00:28:54,700 --> 00:28:57,380 It was about making sure everyone has space to express 563 00:28:57,380 --> 00:29:00,500 how they saw the design and how they think should be developed. 564 00:29:00,860 --> 00:29:04,340 But I was a software developer on the team, so I had a stake in 565 00:29:04,340 --> 00:29:06,920 it. So I could not always express my 566 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,120 own opinions or I refuse to do that because I wanted to, you 567 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,840 know, keep that neutrality and that can lead to a lot of 568 00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:17,000 internal conflict. So the best thing to do then is 569 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,120 to just, you know, say like, hey, I'm talking as an architect 570 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:24,120 right now or I'm talking as your team lead and here is my opinion 571 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,080 and to, you know, not prevent yourself from expressing it or 572 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,880 you're going to make it a bit worse for yourself to do this. 573 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,200 Thanks for sharing all these personal experience, right. 574 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,360 So I think most of the teams in the software world, I would say 575 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:40,440 they don't have the luxury to work with like a professional 576 00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,840 facilitator. Most of them are just, you know, 577 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,120 improvising from their original role, right? 578 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,400 Be it an architect, maybe tech lead or maybe senior leaders or 579 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,400 whatever that is. So thanks for sharing some of 580 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,360 these heuristics, right? Maybe if I capture some of them, 581 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,160 like you are not responsible for outcome, you're responsible to 582 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,120 guide the conversation so that they can have a direction. 583 00:29:59,540 --> 00:30:02,140 And you should not facilitate and participate at the same 584 00:30:02,140 --> 00:30:03,540 time. If you want to do that, you have 585 00:30:03,540 --> 00:30:07,340 to switch, maybe explicitly say, yeah, you are behaving as a 586 00:30:07,340 --> 00:30:09,100 facilitator or as a participant, right. 587 00:30:09,100 --> 00:30:11,780 So thanks for sharing that. So one interesting thing that 588 00:30:11,780 --> 00:30:13,780 you mentioned also is about social skills, right? 589 00:30:13,820 --> 00:30:16,580 And I know this term is being coined a lot in software 590 00:30:16,580 --> 00:30:19,100 development about social technical skills. 591 00:30:19,540 --> 00:30:22,260 So maybe explain a little bit briefly about social technical 592 00:30:22,260 --> 00:30:25,700 skills and why collaborative modeling is actually perfect for 593 00:30:25,700 --> 00:30:28,180 solving social technical skills in software development. 594 00:30:29,110 --> 00:30:31,950 Yeah, as he already said, we don't refer to them as soft 595 00:30:31,950 --> 00:30:36,270 skills because I get really triggered and irritated whenever 596 00:30:36,670 --> 00:30:39,870 that's being mentioned because that also implies that there are 597 00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:43,910 hard skills and they like have this connotation that they kind 598 00:30:43,910 --> 00:30:45,630 of like higher in rankled states. 599 00:30:45,870 --> 00:30:49,310 The whole thing for us is like collaborative modeling is a 600 00:30:49,310 --> 00:30:51,230 social technical happening, right? 601 00:30:51,230 --> 00:30:55,030 I mean, yes, there is a very important and strong technical 602 00:30:55,030 --> 00:30:59,200 component to it, of course, but it's also done by humans and 603 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,560 they have to collaborate and they will have to work together 604 00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:05,960 and actively try to understand each other again on the same 605 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,240 page. So that's a balance there. 606 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:11,360 I mean, if you only focus on the technical side, then you won't 607 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,760 get anywhere because every technical decision that you make 608 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,360 will have social implications or consequences. 609 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:21,960 Let's say whenever you choose a certain boundary, let's say your 610 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,200 event storming session or your collective modeling session, 611 00:31:24,620 --> 00:31:26,980 that will imply some social consequences. 612 00:31:26,980 --> 00:31:30,100 It means that maybe other people will have to work together in a 613 00:31:30,100 --> 00:31:33,220 team or someone will disagree with that decision on that 614 00:31:33,220 --> 00:31:36,700 boundary and they will go into resistant mode and then conflict 615 00:31:36,700 --> 00:31:38,740 arises and then you have to deal with that. 616 00:31:38,780 --> 00:31:41,100 It's really a balance and it also goes the other way around, 617 00:31:41,100 --> 00:31:42,900 right? Like so for some social 618 00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:45,500 happenings or social decisions that you're making in terms of 619 00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:49,260 team composition or your office layout or whatever or the way 620 00:31:49,260 --> 00:31:52,420 that you work will also have an impact on your technical 621 00:31:52,420 --> 00:31:54,820 outcomes. So it's a two way St. and I 622 00:31:54,820 --> 00:31:58,940 think there's not enough focus on that balance and how you do 623 00:31:58,940 --> 00:32:00,980 that. And I think that's where we want 624 00:32:00,980 --> 00:32:04,180 to focus on as well because you have to deal with the 625 00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:06,460 sociodynamics as well. And it's the hard part, and it's 626 00:32:06,460 --> 00:32:09,380 not always a fun part because humans can really mess 627 00:32:09,380 --> 00:32:12,360 everything up. But you have to understand or at 628 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:15,120 least observe what's going on in a group of people. 629 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,400 I mean, when they come together, there will be conflicts, there 630 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,280 will be polarities there. Cognitive bias is flying around 631 00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,040 that impacts your decisions. There will be ranking. 632 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:25,720 I mean, there's always some sort of a hierarchy in the group. 633 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,960 And that will impact how we discuss things and how we make 634 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,400 decisions and how we eventually end up with our software 635 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,720 architecture. So balancing that very actively 636 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:38,470 and consciously, that's something that we are, yeah, 637 00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:41,230 huge fans off. I think that's if I can put it 638 00:32:41,230 --> 00:32:43,510 that way. Sure. 639 00:32:43,750 --> 00:32:46,710 I mean, we're enough fans to write an entire book about it 640 00:32:46,710 --> 00:32:51,630 for a year and a half. So yeah, true. 641 00:32:51,670 --> 00:32:53,350 So we can say that probably, yes. 642 00:32:53,950 --> 00:32:57,360 Yeah. So yeah, I think as long as we 643 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,840 still require human right, it will be a socio technical kind 644 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,360 of a problem, right? So maybe one day AI could 645 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:05,760 perfectly write perfect software and maybe we don't have the 646 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,720 social technical anymore. But until then, right, We need 647 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,720 humans to collaborate with each other, right? 648 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,280 So you mentioned a couple of things that are pretty 649 00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:14,880 interesting in the human dynamics, right? 650 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,040 There will be conflicts, like you said, there will be 651 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,280 cognitive biases. So maybe let's start with the 652 00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,360 cognitive bias, because I think this is really, really important 653 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:24,840 because everyone has different kind of a bias. 654 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:29,840 So tell us why bias is very important to probably first be 655 00:33:29,840 --> 00:33:34,120 aware of and 2nd is to probably identify before we make certain 656 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,480 decisions in software design. And I remember that you also 657 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,720 asked before like why is this all social technical thing 658 00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:42,560 related to the collaborative modeling part. 659 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,120 Well the short answer there is of course there are lots of 660 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,120 people in the room when you do collaborative modeling and it 661 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:50,920 implies by default. It implies like you have to work 662 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:52,600 together. So as soon as you put people in 663 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,360 a room, these social dynamics will fly around and you have to 664 00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:59,080 deal with that in a way. And with social dynamics, we 665 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,680 also mean that the biases that you mentioned, sorry. 666 00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,440 And these biases are like, yeah, I I really like them. 667 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,239 And that's because, well, some people see them as some sort of 668 00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,280 a negative thing. But actually in in almost every 669 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,400 situation they help us. They are kind of like mental 670 00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:19,170 shortcuts that we used to help us make quick and effective 671 00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:21,570 decisions. And when you put it like that, I 672 00:34:21,570 --> 00:34:23,690 mean like who doesn't like that, right? 673 00:34:23,690 --> 00:34:26,130 I mean that's what we want. And they are based on 674 00:34:26,130 --> 00:34:29,050 experiences that we have. I mean they help us to make 675 00:34:29,050 --> 00:34:31,610 these decisions in a quick and effective way because we've 676 00:34:31,610 --> 00:34:35,010 experienced a lot of it in our post time, let's say. 677 00:34:35,409 --> 00:34:38,610 So they are really useful. The only thing is that they can 678 00:34:38,610 --> 00:34:41,489 also hinder us in a way and especially when we do 679 00:34:41,489 --> 00:34:43,929 collaborative modeling them well, they can handle the 680 00:34:43,929 --> 00:34:47,320 process, let's say. So for example, when you, I'm 681 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:49,679 not sure if you if you've heard of it, but the anchoring effect 682 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:53,040 is a very important cognitive bias that's present in a lot of 683 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,120 collaborative modeling sessions and it basically means that we 684 00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,800 rely on anchors. So an anchor is for example, we 685 00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,760 ask a question in a group and someone talks 1st and by that is 686 00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:07,440 dropping an anchor. So it also works in negotiation. 687 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,600 So whenever you start, so you lay out the first bit, let's say 688 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,800 that that's the anchor. And we as humans we have this 689 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:16,680 tendency to move towards that anger. 690 00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:19,560 So whenever he and I would have a conflict or a discussion for 691 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,720 example, when will this book finally be ready, maybe the 692 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:25,600 publisher is asking us this question or our friends is 693 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:28,680 asking us this question. And I would want to say like, 694 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:34,480 yeah, I think it may at 2024, let's say and he is saying is 695 00:35:34,480 --> 00:35:37,660 December 2033. And then I'm like oh, OK, 696 00:35:37,660 --> 00:35:40,620 there's a big difference. But if he talks 1st and she 697 00:35:40,620 --> 00:35:44,700 drops that anchor of December 2033, I will move towards that 698 00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:48,340 anchor maybe I'll say yeah, so maybe January or February 2024 699 00:35:48,340 --> 00:35:50,540 that. So we move towards the anchor 700 00:35:50,540 --> 00:35:52,860 that's being dropped. So in a collaborative modeling 701 00:35:52,860 --> 00:35:55,900 session, the person who starts talking, sure, the person who 702 00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:59,620 puts the first stickies on the wall, that person is dropping an 703 00:35:59,620 --> 00:36:02,340 anchor and the rest of the group will move towards that anchor. 704 00:36:02,340 --> 00:36:05,590 So for example, That's also why we leave a lot of room for 705 00:36:05,590 --> 00:36:08,190 individual contribution when we do collaborative modeling, 706 00:36:08,230 --> 00:36:10,670 because we want to sort out that anchoring effect, let's say. 707 00:36:10,670 --> 00:36:14,590 So we want to let people have the room and space and time to 708 00:36:14,590 --> 00:36:17,790 at least share their individual contributions without being 709 00:36:17,790 --> 00:36:20,670 anchored or biased by the other people in the room. 710 00:36:21,070 --> 00:36:24,110 And this is just one example, but there are like there's a 711 00:36:24,110 --> 00:36:27,310 whole codec on biases that influence the collaborative 712 00:36:27,310 --> 00:36:30,030 modeling session. So at least being aware of a few 713 00:36:30,030 --> 00:36:34,440 of them, of some important ones, will really help you in making 714 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,960 conscious decisions on how you do it, how you do that 715 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:42,560 collaborative modeling part. Yeah, and to go further, like it 716 00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,480 affects the socio, the socio technical, but it also affects 717 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,680 the technical. Like if you have loss aversion, 718 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:50,520 you know, people have loss aversion, they're afraid to lose 719 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:52,240 things. You know, the more time you 720 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:55,720 invest into something, the more loss aversion you have. 721 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,800 So when we're putting all that effort into a design and into 722 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:02,660 our code. We get emotionally attached to 723 00:37:02,660 --> 00:37:05,740 it and we create loss of vision. And then, you know, when a new 724 00:37:05,740 --> 00:37:08,980 feature hits the deck, you're sort of like, oh, I'm just, you 725 00:37:08,980 --> 00:37:12,900 know, going to adapt what I have just a bit sort of make sure it 726 00:37:12,940 --> 00:37:16,060 still fits in there because you know, you now have an attachment 727 00:37:16,420 --> 00:37:20,220 to that model that you made. But maybe there are so much 728 00:37:20,220 --> 00:37:24,720 better designs available if you. Let go of that loss of version 729 00:37:24,720 --> 00:37:27,960 and just you know see OK how can we actually deal with this new 730 00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,880 information that we just got and how can we change your models 731 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:34,360 and evolve it so you know impacts technical as much as it 732 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,320 impacts the the social as well. Yeah, thanks for mentioning 733 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:41,200 these two biases, right. So for people, maybe now you 734 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,200 realize why certain things are done. 735 00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:45,040 For example, in the collaborative design, mostly 736 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:48,000 like people write in sticky notes first before they put all 737 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,760 of them on the wall, right? So this is to remove the anchor 738 00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:53,550 bias as much as possible. So lots of version, definitely. 739 00:37:53,550 --> 00:37:56,750 For software engineers, we sometimes the creator, right, is 740 00:37:56,790 --> 00:37:59,270 very much attached to their design, right. 741 00:37:59,270 --> 00:38:01,070 So. And we'll defend maybe with 742 00:38:01,070 --> 00:38:03,550 their life before someone else changes, Yes. 743 00:38:04,150 --> 00:38:04,910 Yeah. But that's true. 744 00:38:04,910 --> 00:38:07,110 I mean, we're laughing, but it's definitely true, yeah. 745 00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:11,310 We're all laughing because we have done that before. 746 00:38:11,550 --> 00:38:13,230 Exactly. It creates empathy. 747 00:38:13,230 --> 00:38:16,630 If you can see that person, if you don't think about cognitive 748 00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:18,830 biases, if you know nothing about them, you're like, oh, 749 00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:21,030 this person should be virtually difficult. 750 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:23,160 You know, my solution is so much better. 751 00:38:23,160 --> 00:38:25,400 Why doesn't they want to see that? 752 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,280 And then you're, you know, you can just say, oh, you know, he's 753 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,160 having loss of version. It's normal. 754 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,160 It's what people do. You know, he's attached to his 755 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,400 solution. How can I deal with that? 756 00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:38,640 And it's a different perspective towards that person as well at 757 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,920 that moment, yeah. So I think knowing about all 758 00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,040 these biases I learned as well in the past, right. 759 00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:46,440 So knowing all these biases versus a create awareness, 760 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,840 right, that you are actually in this kind of bias. 761 00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:50,600 So I think that's really important as well. 762 00:38:51,270 --> 00:38:53,910 So another important aspect maybe apart from bias you 763 00:38:53,910 --> 00:38:56,390 mentioned earlier, Evelyne is about ranking, right? 764 00:38:56,430 --> 00:39:00,830 So this is the human aspect that can give you like power dynamics 765 00:39:00,870 --> 00:39:03,350 that can give you a different kind of a bias, right? 766 00:39:03,750 --> 00:39:06,950 So tell us more about this ranking because you dedicate one 767 00:39:07,070 --> 00:39:09,470 chapter to discuss about this ranking. 768 00:39:10,870 --> 00:39:13,150 Yeah, we did. Yeah, we could. 769 00:39:13,150 --> 00:39:15,350 Well, because it's an important subject, right. 770 00:39:15,350 --> 00:39:19,250 So ranking happens everywhere in groups and it kind of helps you 771 00:39:19,250 --> 00:39:21,970 to determine your own position compared to the others in the 772 00:39:21,970 --> 00:39:23,730 group. And it's not a bad thing. 773 00:39:23,730 --> 00:39:26,610 Again, just like cognitive bias, it's absolutely not a bad thing. 774 00:39:26,610 --> 00:39:29,410 It really helps you in making sense of your environment 775 00:39:29,730 --> 00:39:33,050 without having to process every bit of information that's coming 776 00:39:33,050 --> 00:39:36,410 your way very actively. So it's really helpful you enter 777 00:39:36,450 --> 00:39:39,490 a room and based on the others to think that you're seeing your 778 00:39:39,490 --> 00:39:41,130 own position, you'll feel like okay. 779 00:39:41,130 --> 00:39:45,170 So I'm relatively here compared to the others and some things 780 00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:47,330 are very obvious. I mean, there's explicit ranking 781 00:39:47,330 --> 00:39:50,330 like your position in the organizational charts, your 782 00:39:50,330 --> 00:39:53,410 role, like there are some things that are very, very obvious. 783 00:39:53,770 --> 00:39:56,650 But there is also more like the implicit part, which is really 784 00:39:56,650 --> 00:40:01,090 more about like age or gender or like there's a difference there, 785 00:40:01,090 --> 00:40:05,210 your informal level of power. I mean, I can be very high up in 786 00:40:05,210 --> 00:40:07,690 the formal hierarchy of an organization. 787 00:40:08,090 --> 00:40:10,610 But there are always people that have this level of informal 788 00:40:10,610 --> 00:40:12,090 power. And whenever I say that, you 789 00:40:12,090 --> 00:40:14,650 probably think about someone like, yeah, Okay, he's not that 790 00:40:14,650 --> 00:40:17,730 high up on the letter or she, But there's a lot of informal 791 00:40:17,730 --> 00:40:20,690 power with that person. A lot of people just follow that 792 00:40:20,690 --> 00:40:26,490 person based on some magical, hidden implicit ranking powers. 793 00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:32,810 And those people are there. And so deciding where you are 794 00:40:32,810 --> 00:40:35,570 relatively to the rest of the group, it really helps. 795 00:40:36,190 --> 00:40:37,830 And you do that unconsciously a lot. 796 00:40:37,830 --> 00:40:40,110 But whatever you do, collaborative modeling, for 797 00:40:40,110 --> 00:40:45,150 example, ranking also determines who starts to speak first, or 798 00:40:45,150 --> 00:40:48,950 who is sharing opinions, or who is staying more quiet, or who's 799 00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:52,070 taking the lead in some stuff, for example, who's taking the 800 00:40:52,070 --> 00:40:55,710 lead in trying, starting to move stickies around, for example. 801 00:40:56,270 --> 00:41:00,070 And that goes unconsciously, but usually you see people higher in 802 00:41:00,070 --> 00:41:02,510 rank starting to speak first, for example. 803 00:41:03,090 --> 00:41:06,130 And that then relates to the anchoring bias that we just 804 00:41:06,130 --> 00:41:07,610 mentioned. Because if you are higher 805 00:41:07,610 --> 00:41:11,610 ranking and use are dropping an anchor, then it will be way 806 00:41:11,610 --> 00:41:13,770 harder for people to share a minority perspective. 807 00:41:14,130 --> 00:41:17,970 So being aware of your rank and the ranking of others in that 808 00:41:17,970 --> 00:41:20,690 room can really help you in balancing that, let's say. 809 00:41:21,290 --> 00:41:23,890 And that's really important because eventually you want to 810 00:41:23,890 --> 00:41:26,970 have everyone be able to speak up and share their thoughts and 811 00:41:26,970 --> 00:41:29,530 share their perspective because everyone has something to add. 812 00:41:29,570 --> 00:41:32,450 Everyone has wisdom to add to the collaborative modeling 813 00:41:32,450 --> 00:41:35,210 exercise that you're doing. And you don't want ranking to 814 00:41:35,210 --> 00:41:38,610 hinder people sharing their perspective and their wisdom. 815 00:41:38,890 --> 00:41:42,330 So as a facilitator, there's also a role there to share that 816 00:41:42,330 --> 00:41:43,690 rank. So if you know that there will 817 00:41:43,690 --> 00:41:46,850 be, for example, someone who's very high rank and he or she has 818 00:41:46,850 --> 00:41:49,930 this tendency to start talking for us to be very dominant, to 819 00:41:49,930 --> 00:41:53,950 be very active and present and loud, let's say, then you could 820 00:41:53,950 --> 00:41:55,790 have a conversation with this person before. 821 00:41:55,790 --> 00:41:57,750 And what is it that you want to get out of this session? 822 00:41:57,750 --> 00:42:00,630 And then if the answer is yeah, I want everyone to add their 823 00:42:00,630 --> 00:42:03,710 wisdom and perspective to what we're doing, then my advice 824 00:42:03,710 --> 00:42:05,550 would be okay. So you're higher rank. 825 00:42:05,630 --> 00:42:09,710 Then I would advise you to not start talking first to ask 826 00:42:09,710 --> 00:42:12,910 questions to people instead of making statements to keep 827 00:42:12,910 --> 00:42:15,510 yourself a bit more on the background instead of standing 828 00:42:15,510 --> 00:42:18,700 in front of the brown paper all the time, so being aware of the 829 00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:20,700 rank where you are and where others are. 830 00:42:20,700 --> 00:42:22,860 That really helps you with sharing it with the rest of the 831 00:42:22,860 --> 00:42:26,380 group and eventually having everyone sharing what they wanna 832 00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:30,340 share in that session. I have plenty of examples about 833 00:42:30,340 --> 00:42:33,020 ranking. I'll give one. 834 00:42:33,060 --> 00:42:37,540 Yes, I had a team lead and then in that moment like I didn't 835 00:42:37,540 --> 00:42:40,540 know the terminology ranking and then I didn't know that yet. 836 00:42:40,540 --> 00:42:44,570 So it was quite a few years ago. And they were the team lead and 837 00:42:44,610 --> 00:42:47,970 that they felt I'm just, you know, similar role in the team. 838 00:42:47,970 --> 00:42:50,690 I'm, I'm part of the team. But we also had two or three 839 00:42:50,690 --> 00:42:53,370 people who had a lot of difficulty going against 840 00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:56,330 authority. So this person would always 841 00:42:56,330 --> 00:42:59,810 speak first their opinions in the sense that, hey, I'm just, 842 00:42:59,810 --> 00:43:02,130 you know, another person expressing my opinion. 843 00:43:02,530 --> 00:43:05,410 And then a lot of people, because of their background, 844 00:43:05,410 --> 00:43:08,810 their culture, were afraid to go against that team lead or to 845 00:43:08,810 --> 00:43:13,020 express a different opinion. So that person influenced 846 00:43:13,180 --> 00:43:16,700 whatever happened in the code base a lot more than they ever 847 00:43:16,700 --> 00:43:19,860 realized. And when I try to discuss this 848 00:43:20,220 --> 00:43:22,940 saying that I see these people react and they're scared to 849 00:43:22,940 --> 00:43:24,860 speak up. And when we speak privately, 850 00:43:24,860 --> 00:43:27,500 they have a completely different opinion, but they're scared to 851 00:43:27,500 --> 00:43:29,420 tell you. This person just didn't 852 00:43:29,420 --> 00:43:31,300 understand that. And again, I didn't know about 853 00:43:31,300 --> 00:43:32,980 ranking. And if I had known and if I 854 00:43:32,980 --> 00:43:36,300 could have explained like, hey, this is your rank as team lead 855 00:43:36,300 --> 00:43:38,820 and it's so much higher than everyone else. 856 00:43:38,820 --> 00:43:42,060 And these or the social consequences of having that, 857 00:43:42,340 --> 00:43:44,540 that conversation would have gone a lot better, I think, 858 00:43:46,860 --> 00:43:48,500 because that was just my intuition. 859 00:43:49,260 --> 00:43:54,180 And then I had actual scientific terminology at least to talk 860 00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:56,060 about. So that's why we added to the 861 00:43:56,060 --> 00:43:58,950 book as well, because you know. Knowledge is power. 862 00:43:58,950 --> 00:44:02,030 And being able to have that discussion, then if you know the 863 00:44:02,030 --> 00:44:05,270 terminology about hey, you have a lot of implicit ranking, you 864 00:44:05,270 --> 00:44:08,310 have a lot of explicit ranking. Be careful for just this and 865 00:44:08,310 --> 00:44:11,590 this, cuz science has shown that these are the effects. 866 00:44:12,710 --> 00:44:17,830 And your example is again also a perfect illustration of how like 867 00:44:17,830 --> 00:44:20,790 this social dynamic also influences the technical part, 868 00:44:20,790 --> 00:44:22,630 right? Because if you are higher rank 869 00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:26,150 and there is no room for others to share their perspective, for 870 00:44:26,150 --> 00:44:29,550 example, then it's very likely that your decisions will be 871 00:44:29,590 --> 00:44:33,470 included or implemented in your architecture or your design, and 872 00:44:33,470 --> 00:44:36,630 you will miss a lot of wisdom and knowledge and expertise. 873 00:44:36,870 --> 00:44:39,510 So that's also like how it goes the other way around. 874 00:44:40,430 --> 00:44:42,590 Yeah, and they don't have to live with the consequences, 875 00:44:42,630 --> 00:44:44,030 right? Because if someone has a very 876 00:44:44,030 --> 00:44:45,790 high-ranking, they often are not. 877 00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:49,940 Coding and doing all that software development anymore. 878 00:44:50,060 --> 00:44:54,060 So they set the course and they do not have to live with the 879 00:44:54,060 --> 00:44:56,420 consequences of setting that course. 880 00:44:57,100 --> 00:45:00,140 Thanks for the plug. I can hear some maybe from past 881 00:45:00,140 --> 00:45:03,940 experience where you can have frustration because of that, but 882 00:45:03,940 --> 00:45:06,060 I think there's a few things also that I want to add on. 883 00:45:06,060 --> 00:45:07,860 Right. So sometimes this ranking is 884 00:45:08,060 --> 00:45:10,700 also implicit because of the culture in some countries, 885 00:45:10,700 --> 00:45:12,500 right? They tend to give the leaders 886 00:45:12,700 --> 00:45:16,020 the first chance to speak. Or maybe some leaders are being 887 00:45:16,140 --> 00:45:18,020 called first, right? So Sir, can you Give your 888 00:45:18,020 --> 00:45:20,380 opinion something like that? And also the other thing when 889 00:45:20,380 --> 00:45:23,300 you mention about some people who have this magical power 890 00:45:23,300 --> 00:45:25,100 somehow, right? So ranking doesn't always mean 891 00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:27,180 hierarchies in the social context, right? 892 00:45:27,220 --> 00:45:28,980 Absolutely it. Could mean someone who have 893 00:45:29,020 --> 00:45:31,180 influence. And in your book you mentioned 894 00:45:31,180 --> 00:45:35,140 maybe some kind of like a Difa programmer or maybe people who 895 00:45:35,140 --> 00:45:37,820 are loud, right? So I think these are some of the 896 00:45:38,020 --> 00:45:40,760 samples. Yeah, the rock stars, people who 897 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:45,120 have worked a very long time in that company often have implicit 898 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,840 a very high-ranking. And they do have an enormous 899 00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,000 amount of knowledge, which is why they get that implicit 900 00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:54,440 ranking in the 1st place. But it might be a burden even 901 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:59,400 for those people having that ranking might be a burden and, 902 00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:02,640 you know, sort of limit ID's and solutions. 903 00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:04,920 Yeah. And I think like also why we 904 00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,480 added this chapter, why we spend a little chapter on it. 905 00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,620 Like usually architects also are pretty high up in rank, right? 906 00:46:11,660 --> 00:46:14,700 And we feel that they also are like the people who could be in 907 00:46:14,700 --> 00:46:18,100 a facilitator role or at least should focus on this old social 908 00:46:18,100 --> 00:46:20,740 technical thinking. So then at least knowing what 909 00:46:20,740 --> 00:46:24,220 ranking is and how it affects like the group or the team or 910 00:46:24,220 --> 00:46:26,740 the people that they're working with and also being aware of 911 00:46:26,740 --> 00:46:29,340 their own rank and how they can share it with others. 912 00:46:29,660 --> 00:46:32,500 But we feel that's a very important skill to, or at least 913 00:46:32,620 --> 00:46:35,140 a very important knowledge to have for these people. 914 00:46:35,940 --> 00:46:37,020 Yeah. Again, we come back to 915 00:46:37,020 --> 00:46:39,500 awareness, right? First is to be aware that's this 916 00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:41,220 term in the social context, right? 917 00:46:41,260 --> 00:46:43,780 We can use the term now to explain to people. 918 00:46:44,140 --> 00:46:46,980 So another example of maybe ranking that I can see from my 919 00:46:46,980 --> 00:46:50,020 past is the people who have worked with some kind of systems 920 00:46:50,020 --> 00:46:52,420 for the longest time, right. So they know the ins and outs. 921 00:46:52,820 --> 00:46:54,940 Sometimes you just refer to the person and just follow. 922 00:46:54,980 --> 00:46:57,380 So I think be aware of these such things, right. 923 00:46:57,460 --> 00:46:59,940 So not everything is always about hierarchies. 924 00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:02,840 So I think the other question that I would like to ask is 925 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,840 actually okay. We have the facilitator, we have 926 00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:08,720 the participants, how to put the structure because sometimes some 927 00:47:08,720 --> 00:47:11,880 facilitators right, you can't just leave them to run it the 928 00:47:11,880 --> 00:47:14,640 way they like. So maybe there are some tips 929 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,600 from you best practices what kind of structure we should put 930 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:20,440 and I know that this kind of collaborative modeling right. 931 00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,760 There are some people who also advocate certain things. 932 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:25,560 Things like event storming, maybe lean inception. 933 00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,320 And also Domain Driven Design have a few ways as well right? 934 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:32,120 So maybe from your experience, what kind of best practice you 935 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,480 would advise us? For the process of collaborative 936 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,240 modeling session, we did give people who never done 937 00:47:38,240 --> 00:47:40,560 facilitating before. We sort of gave them a structure 938 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:44,320 that they can use there. We talk about you have the prep, 939 00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:47,440 you have the check in, then you have the actual collaborative 940 00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:48,920 modeling, you have the check out. 941 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,800 And you sort of have to communicating and documenting to 942 00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:56,960 stakeholders not present there. And for each of these stages we 943 00:47:56,960 --> 00:48:00,840 offer advice on how to do it. And I think that's a good 944 00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:04,480 beginning if you're starting from nothing at the least. 945 00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,200 So make sure you're well prepared, don't go in there and 946 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:12,200 thinking and I'll make this work because that's not really how 947 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,280 that does not end well. If I may share my experience 948 00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,860 there. And a check in and a check out I 949 00:48:19,860 --> 00:48:22,660 think are very important as well. 950 00:48:23,300 --> 00:48:26,780 So and then you can hop in if you're done thinking, no, yeah, 951 00:48:26,780 --> 00:48:30,100 I was indeed thinking about the scheme or the visual that we 952 00:48:30,100 --> 00:48:32,140 created on that preparation. But then I was like, yeah, it's 953 00:48:32,140 --> 00:48:34,180 not here. So then we have to, we have to. 954 00:48:34,420 --> 00:48:37,740 But you explained it very well. So I'm again impressed. 955 00:48:38,220 --> 00:48:40,420 But yeah, I think in there's a structure. 956 00:48:40,820 --> 00:48:43,220 If you've never done it before, then this general structure and 957 00:48:43,220 --> 00:48:45,910 it really helps. But like he mentioned that doing 958 00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:49,270 a check in and a check out, that's a very important part 959 00:48:49,270 --> 00:48:52,390 that not always is there in sessions. 960 00:48:52,390 --> 00:48:55,030 And it's a very important part because it can help you like 961 00:48:55,510 --> 00:48:59,670 getting some stuff up already, like knowing what's going on in 962 00:48:59,670 --> 00:49:01,510 a group. Maybe there are some stuff 963 00:49:01,510 --> 00:49:04,790 happening in the background that is going to affect your session 964 00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:08,300 or the outcome or whatever. And by doing a check in, it's a 965 00:49:08,300 --> 00:49:10,780 way to connect with the people in the room, it's a way to 966 00:49:10,780 --> 00:49:13,820 connect with the topic, it's a way to set the stage, let's say 967 00:49:13,820 --> 00:49:17,220 for that day. So even a very simple but very 968 00:49:17,220 --> 00:49:20,060 powerful question to ask you to check it at the beginning would 969 00:49:20,060 --> 00:49:22,180 be okay. So why do you want to be here 970 00:49:22,180 --> 00:49:23,780 and why don't you want to be here? 971 00:49:24,700 --> 00:49:27,220 And especially by that second question, you will get a lot of 972 00:49:27,220 --> 00:49:30,620 information from people in that room and you can choose to let 973 00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:32,980 people write it down and stick these or to express it or to 974 00:49:32,980 --> 00:49:36,140 well there are lots of forms and ways to do a check in, but I 975 00:49:36,140 --> 00:49:41,200 think that's a very important part that is not always done in 976 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:42,840 these sessions, but it's very useful. 977 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,200 And so if you are looking for structure apart from the 978 00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:48,680 preparation and it to invite and the documentation and then 979 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,200 communicating for check in and check out is really something 980 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:55,480 that we would always do in sessions like this and it helps. 981 00:49:57,080 --> 00:50:01,000 Very small, like when I'm consulting and I've been with 982 00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,840 the client for quite a while. It's like, this is what we 983 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,280 discussed last time. Do we need to get back to any of 984 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:08,950 that? And that's just to check it. 985 00:50:08,950 --> 00:50:13,350 Like do you have any feelings about what we did last time we 986 00:50:13,350 --> 00:50:15,270 were talking? And then the wrap up is like, 987 00:50:15,270 --> 00:50:17,390 OK, we discussed this, this and this, so it doesn't have to 988 00:50:17,390 --> 00:50:19,510 belong. The better you know someone, the 989 00:50:19,510 --> 00:50:23,030 shorter you can actually make it more comfortable to group is. 990 00:50:23,870 --> 00:50:26,350 Right. So I think also well prepared, 991 00:50:26,350 --> 00:50:27,910 right. So preparation is the key, 992 00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:29,710 right. So don't wing it probably, 993 00:50:29,710 --> 00:50:32,310 especially when you invite a large group of people, right. 994 00:50:32,310 --> 00:50:35,350 So maybe if you are within the same team, maybe. 995 00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:38,520 In a way you can be flexible, but if you have different 996 00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,200 interests of people joining the session, I think the key is to 997 00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,720 be well prepared. Maybe send the documents upfront 998 00:50:44,720 --> 00:50:47,680 right what you will be discussing about and maybe 999 00:50:47,680 --> 00:50:50,160 setting the outcome as well. Like what do you expect to 1000 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,400 resolve out of? The session, yeah, we have a 1001 00:50:53,400 --> 00:50:56,280 template for how to prep for such a session and one of the 1002 00:50:56,280 --> 00:50:59,360 things is you know, like you have to have an agenda and you 1003 00:50:59,360 --> 00:51:01,880 need to communicate the outcome giving, you know. 1004 00:51:02,340 --> 00:51:05,340 If it's the first time, maybe even saying why you invited 1005 00:51:05,340 --> 00:51:08,820 these specific sets of people in relation to the outcome that you 1006 00:51:08,820 --> 00:51:12,900 wish to achieve. I've always hated meetings where 1007 00:51:12,900 --> 00:51:16,340 there's just no preparation, even if you're not doing 1008 00:51:16,340 --> 00:51:19,380 collaborative modeling, but just general because it makes the 1009 00:51:19,380 --> 00:51:22,620 meeting so slow and so boring. And that's sort of how I got 1010 00:51:22,620 --> 00:51:26,220 into decision making as well. So, like, it has to be a better 1011 00:51:26,220 --> 00:51:29,300 way to do all this, because I don't want to do this type of 1012 00:51:29,300 --> 00:51:31,020 meetings for the rest of my life. 1013 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,000 If you don't, that's weird. No, I know, I know. 1014 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,080 But yeah. The other question I would say, 1015 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,280 so maybe doing this collaborative modeling is quite 1016 00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,880 expensive, right? Because we involve a lot of 1017 00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,640 people we need to prepare and all that. 1018 00:51:46,680 --> 00:51:49,960 How frequent or when should we do this collaborative modeling? 1019 00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:53,480 Is it like for every big feature only or is it like any kind of 1020 00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,120 small feature can also use this kind of modeling? 1021 00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:58,520 So maybe from your experience what would be your advice? 1022 00:51:59,370 --> 00:52:02,330 So it also depends on which form of collaborative modeling you're 1023 00:52:02,330 --> 00:52:04,730 using, right? I mean you have forms like big 1024 00:52:04,730 --> 00:52:07,050 picture, event storming, where in beat you invite a lot of 1025 00:52:07,050 --> 00:52:10,010 people and it's relatively expensive, yes. 1026 00:52:10,370 --> 00:52:13,890 But you also have other tools like example mapping or impact 1027 00:52:13,890 --> 00:52:17,650 mapping or workly mapping or context mapping or just to name 1028 00:52:17,650 --> 00:52:21,530 a few which don't require the same big group of people in the 1029 00:52:21,530 --> 00:52:23,850 room. So it also depends on like what 1030 00:52:23,850 --> 00:52:26,250 you want to achieve and which tool you're using. 1031 00:52:26,250 --> 00:52:30,200 So it's hard to say like that there are limits or rules or 1032 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,320 guidelines on when to do it, because it really depends on 1033 00:52:33,320 --> 00:52:35,480 what you want to achieve and which tool you're using. 1034 00:52:35,720 --> 00:52:39,240 But for whatever you do it with a big, big group of people, 1035 00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,600 that's not something you will do every month, let's say, because 1036 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,280 that will be a very, very challenging, a very expensive. 1037 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,880 But very often what we also see in practice is like maybe that's 1038 00:52:50,880 --> 00:52:53,680 the starting point to do it with a very big group. 1039 00:52:53,680 --> 00:52:57,030 But then following your for example, if you started with big 1040 00:52:57,030 --> 00:53:00,390 picture event storming, then other stuff will follow from it. 1041 00:53:00,390 --> 00:53:04,870 So maybe in smaller groups you will start working on specific 1042 00:53:04,870 --> 00:53:07,430 context that you have there. Or other groups will start 1043 00:53:07,430 --> 00:53:10,230 working on different parts of the big picture event storming 1044 00:53:10,510 --> 00:53:14,510 by zooming in on it on processor or design forms of event 1045 00:53:14,510 --> 00:53:17,590 storming. So yeah, it really depends on 1046 00:53:17,590 --> 00:53:19,670 what you want to achieve and where you want to go. 1047 00:53:20,070 --> 00:53:23,150 Because if you do it in smaller groups, then it's way less 1048 00:53:23,150 --> 00:53:27,910 expensive in that sense, yeah. I most of the time do it on my 1049 00:53:27,950 --> 00:53:32,910 own as well, because then it's go back to the simple on your 1050 00:53:32,910 --> 00:53:36,510 own. No, the visual is issue hard 1051 00:53:36,750 --> 00:53:41,090 and. Our collaborators alone and 1052 00:53:41,250 --> 00:53:43,650 there are many people. No, we just did because I like 1053 00:53:43,650 --> 00:53:46,330 the visualization and I like sort of the thinking. 1054 00:53:46,370 --> 00:53:48,890 I like the temporal modeling thing about it. 1055 00:53:48,890 --> 00:53:51,930 So temporal modeling is some mapping according to time so 1056 00:53:51,930 --> 00:53:54,650 that you can see, OK, this happens first that that and I 1057 00:53:54,650 --> 00:53:57,650 love example mapping because you then can understand, you know, 1058 00:53:57,650 --> 00:54:00,210 the business rules, the constraints better that you have 1059 00:54:00,210 --> 00:54:04,210 to implement and often they lead you to, oh, I hadn't thought of 1060 00:54:04,210 --> 00:54:06,870 the situation yet. And if you do it on your own, 1061 00:54:06,870 --> 00:54:09,790 then if you're stuck or if you have questions that you don't 1062 00:54:09,790 --> 00:54:13,510 know, then you have something to take to a collaborative modeling 1063 00:54:13,510 --> 00:54:16,150 session. And say I have like 4 questions 1064 00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:19,110 left and then you show you did your homework, but I still have 1065 00:54:19,110 --> 00:54:22,990 these sort of questions left and I need your input on them. 1066 00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:25,950 Do you have half an hour? And then doesn't have to take 1067 00:54:26,150 --> 00:54:29,870 long at all anymore to do this. So yeah, people have like, oh, 1068 00:54:29,870 --> 00:54:32,790 we have to schedule 2-3 hour sessions and it has to be long 1069 00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:34,870 and we have to have everything answered. 1070 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,400 And that's often how you start out with it. 1071 00:54:37,760 --> 00:54:40,920 But I think along the way I'll just having like, hey, half an 1072 00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:42,800 hour meeting. I still have these, these and 1073 00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,400 these questions left. Let's model a bit together. 1074 00:54:45,600 --> 00:54:48,520 I'm sure we'll figure it out. And then it gets less expensive 1075 00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,400 because you know you have more experience and you've done it 1076 00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,840 more. And it gets easier to do over 1077 00:54:53,840 --> 00:54:56,680 time. Right, thanks for the tips, 1078 00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:58,920 right for the advice when how we should do it. 1079 00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:00,600 Again, there's so many tools, right? 1080 00:55:00,600 --> 00:55:03,080 So maybe you can use one for certain things. 1081 00:55:03,390 --> 00:55:05,070 The other one for a smaller group, right. 1082 00:55:05,070 --> 00:55:07,870 So you mentioned about event storming, impact mapping, 1083 00:55:07,870 --> 00:55:09,470 example mapping, so many mapping. 1084 00:55:09,910 --> 00:55:12,790 So please use that depending on your situation, your context, 1085 00:55:12,790 --> 00:55:14,150 right. And I think it will be also 1086 00:55:14,150 --> 00:55:17,190 great that people build awareness to always want to 1087 00:55:17,190 --> 00:55:20,070 collaborate, because sometimes in software development for some 1088 00:55:20,070 --> 00:55:21,750 reasons they always think in silos. 1089 00:55:21,750 --> 00:55:24,830 So maybe I'm an engineer, you are a tester and you are a 1090 00:55:24,830 --> 00:55:27,070 business analyst, right? We don't want to talk and 1091 00:55:27,070 --> 00:55:29,530 collaborate with each other. So maybe also that kind of a 1092 00:55:29,530 --> 00:55:32,170 boundary should not be there as well, so that we can collaborate 1093 00:55:32,170 --> 00:55:34,370 if we talk whenever something to be discussed. 1094 00:55:34,930 --> 00:55:37,450 So the other thing is very important is about remote 1095 00:55:37,450 --> 00:55:40,370 collaborative modeling probably. So maybe if there's anything 1096 00:55:40,370 --> 00:55:42,850 different that people should be aware of, maybe some tips here 1097 00:55:42,850 --> 00:55:45,530 as well. I feel it's harder to read 1098 00:55:45,530 --> 00:55:49,730 people's body language right? Cuz when you only see the upper 1099 00:55:49,730 --> 00:55:52,320 half. As a facilitator and a 1100 00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:56,120 participant to read other people that is I feel a lot more 1101 00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,360 difficult when you're with remote. 1102 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,640 But then you have your micro board and you have your post its 1103 00:56:01,640 --> 00:56:04,480 and then you know like moving stuff around and doing the 1104 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,280 actually you know, doing event storming or doing example 1105 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:10,400 mapping because you're on the white board, virtual white 1106 00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,160 board. That actually gets a lot easier 1107 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:15,620 to do. And you can start tracking the 1108 00:56:15,620 --> 00:56:19,300 history of your design decisions, cuz next session you 1109 00:56:19,300 --> 00:56:21,700 copy it over and you change it and you can sort of see the 1110 00:56:21,860 --> 00:56:24,340 evolution. So I think that's the biggest 1111 00:56:24,340 --> 00:56:27,100 benefit and the biggest downside of remote. 1112 00:56:27,740 --> 00:56:30,180 Nah, I agree. I think indeed the virtual 1113 00:56:30,180 --> 00:56:33,140 whiteboards are yeah, I love them. 1114 00:56:33,180 --> 00:56:36,930 I mean now, so you can read everything, you can make changes 1115 00:56:36,930 --> 00:56:39,570 more easily, you can keep track of what you did and the 1116 00:56:39,570 --> 00:56:41,770 versions. But indeed from an observation 1117 00:56:41,770 --> 00:56:44,850 perspective, which is a very important skill as a facilitator 1118 00:56:44,850 --> 00:56:47,930 as well, it gets harder. And not just because you can, 1119 00:56:47,930 --> 00:56:50,930 you have only limited yeah parts that you're seeing. 1120 00:56:50,930 --> 00:56:54,490 I mean if you're if you're in zoom, there's only a small frame 1121 00:56:54,490 --> 00:56:57,170 that you're seeing. But on top of that you usually 1122 00:56:57,170 --> 00:57:00,110 when you're doing it in a remote way, you have to watch the 1123 00:57:00,110 --> 00:57:02,630 frames of the people, but you also have the chats you have to 1124 00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:04,990 the my report that's going on. Maybe there are some other back 1125 00:57:04,990 --> 00:57:07,230 channels that are going on during the session. 1126 00:57:07,470 --> 00:57:11,110 So you have a lot more channels let's say that you need to watch 1127 00:57:11,110 --> 00:57:13,030 and that you need to observe what's going on there. 1128 00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:15,750 And when everyone is in the room, there's still a lot to see 1129 00:57:15,750 --> 00:57:17,910 and a lot to observe and a lot to pay attention to. 1130 00:57:17,910 --> 00:57:22,110 But at least it's centered in your vision and with remote, 1131 00:57:22,110 --> 00:57:25,010 that gets more difficult. So that's the biggest challenge 1132 00:57:25,010 --> 00:57:28,730 for me when it comes to, indeed observing people and behavior 1133 00:57:28,730 --> 00:57:31,530 and what's going on in a room. So that's harder. 1134 00:57:31,530 --> 00:57:35,010 But yeah, I mean it's we've been dealing with it for a few years 1135 00:57:35,010 --> 00:57:37,850 now and it's, yeah, we managed to do it. 1136 00:57:37,850 --> 00:57:40,250 But indeed, there's other stuff that you need to pay attention 1137 00:57:40,290 --> 00:57:43,690 to, yeah. Thanks for these tips and trick 1138 00:57:43,690 --> 00:57:45,450 as well. So before I go to my last 1139 00:57:45,450 --> 00:57:49,410 question, since I've read this book, it's in me Manning Early 1140 00:57:49,410 --> 00:57:51,650 access program right? I'm gonna ask the same question 1141 00:57:51,650 --> 00:57:53,290 that even you brought as an example. 1142 00:57:53,660 --> 00:57:56,500 So when will we expect to see this book being published? 1143 00:57:57,500 --> 00:57:59,620 So here you can drop the anchor then that's fine. 1144 00:58:01,300 --> 00:58:05,300 No, it's a bit difficult cuz you know, we've never written a book 1145 00:58:05,300 --> 00:58:07,860 before, so we sort of have to guess a bit. 1146 00:58:08,140 --> 00:58:11,420 But like, we're almost finished with all the drafts of the 1147 00:58:11,420 --> 00:58:13,420 chapter, right? The 12th chapters, we're almost 1148 00:58:13,420 --> 00:58:14,940 finished with writing all the drafts. 1149 00:58:14,940 --> 00:58:17,940 And then there has to be a review round which takes 4 1150 00:58:17,940 --> 00:58:20,740 weeks, and then we have to implement the feedback from the 1151 00:58:20,740 --> 00:58:24,470 review. And then it goes to editing, 1152 00:58:24,830 --> 00:58:26,950 right. And so we don't know, I would 1153 00:58:26,950 --> 00:58:32,590 guess November or December something, it's scheduled for 1154 00:58:32,590 --> 00:58:36,430 full this year. So yeah, let's say for November 1155 00:58:36,430 --> 00:58:39,590 then probably. Yeah, don't take it too hard. 1156 00:58:39,590 --> 00:58:41,190 So I'm just joking in a way, right? 1157 00:58:41,190 --> 00:58:42,990 So we know software engineering, right? 1158 00:58:43,030 --> 00:58:45,390 We always misestimate, so don't worry about that. 1159 00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,920 So I have one last question that I would like to ask you. 1160 00:58:48,960 --> 00:58:51,600 So this question I call 3 technical leadership wisdom, 1161 00:58:51,600 --> 00:58:55,200 which I asked to all my guests. So think of it just like advice 1162 00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,400 that you want to give to the listeners so that maybe they can 1163 00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,720 learn from this episode, right. So if you could probably share 1164 00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:03,520 your version of three technical leadership wisdom, what would 1165 00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:08,600 those be? So I think my main, yeah, wisdom 1166 00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,410 is a big word. But I think if I would have to 1167 00:59:11,410 --> 00:59:14,250 pick one, it would be like be prepared to deal with socio 1168 00:59:14,250 --> 00:59:17,330 dynamics that fly around as soon as the humans get together. 1169 00:59:17,730 --> 00:59:20,930 And you have to prepare yourself in a way. 1170 00:59:20,930 --> 00:59:24,850 And the best way or the easiest way to prepare yourself to to do 1171 00:59:24,850 --> 00:59:29,090 that is by at least come up with some heuristics for yourself. 1172 00:59:29,570 --> 00:59:34,250 So whenever you enter your next meeting, starts noticing what's 1173 00:59:34,250 --> 00:59:37,210 going on and start to see if you can come up with heuristics. 1174 00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,440 So, for example, when the group starts to discuss something, you 1175 00:59:40,440 --> 00:59:41,960 can start observing behavior, right? 1176 00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:43,720 So who's saying what? Who talks first? 1177 00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:46,360 Who's more silent? Who's standing where our stick 1178 00:59:46,360 --> 00:59:48,880 is moving around? Are there subgroups forming? 1179 00:59:49,160 --> 00:59:52,600 Are people asking questions or are they making statements? 1180 00:59:52,600 --> 00:59:55,480 All these kinds of things like you can start observing that and 1181 00:59:55,480 --> 00:59:59,240 that will help you to prepare at least for all of the social 1182 00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,000 dynamics that are going to be flying around in every room that 1183 01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:04,490 you're in. So yeah, luxury shorts like be 1184 01:00:04,490 --> 01:00:07,410 prepared to deal with the social dynamics, and one of the best 1185 01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:10,130 ways to do it is to come up with heuristics for yourself. 1186 01:00:10,930 --> 01:00:13,850 Yeah, I think mine is. It's not all about you. 1187 01:00:14,330 --> 01:00:15,770 It's actually not about you at all. 1188 01:00:16,370 --> 01:00:19,930 That's completely based on my experience with leadership, of 1189 01:00:19,930 --> 01:00:22,290 course. I think that even if you're in 1190 01:00:22,290 --> 01:00:25,010 the leader, like they feel the pressure that they have to share 1191 01:00:25,010 --> 01:00:27,210 their opinion, they have to rule. 1192 01:00:27,570 --> 01:00:31,010 And I've, you know, had some team leads or Cto's that like 1193 01:00:31,370 --> 01:00:35,490 one person that took up 90% of the speaking time in any 1194 01:00:35,490 --> 01:00:38,010 meeting, even if they were checking in on you and how you 1195 01:00:38,010 --> 01:00:41,450 were doing on the team, they were speaking 90% of the time. 1196 01:00:41,930 --> 01:00:45,770 I had team leads that felt it was a software developers 1197 01:00:45,770 --> 01:00:49,410 responsibility to convince them we were making good decisions. 1198 01:00:49,710 --> 01:00:52,910 So it's not about you. I think it's the best advice I 1199 01:00:52,910 --> 01:00:54,990 can give because we have to make the decisions. 1200 01:00:54,990 --> 01:00:56,630 We have to live with the consequences. 1201 01:00:56,630 --> 01:00:59,870 We do not have to convince you. And if you you know in a 1202 01:00:59,870 --> 01:01:03,230 meeting, it's not about you at all, there is no pressure for 1203 01:01:03,230 --> 01:01:08,030 you to express your opinion. That is not showing leadership 1204 01:01:08,030 --> 01:01:10,470 necessarily. So just do once in a while, 1205 01:01:10,470 --> 01:01:14,130 remind yourself of that. And then the third author who 1206 01:01:14,130 --> 01:01:17,610 isn't here, but he did share his wisdom with us. 1207 01:01:17,690 --> 01:01:20,810 So kind of the the third wisdom that we want to share is coming 1208 01:01:20,810 --> 01:01:24,850 from Kenny. So I'm going to yeah, hopefully 1209 01:01:24,930 --> 01:01:28,170 convey this in the right way. But his wisdom is so look at 1210 01:01:28,170 --> 01:01:31,810 what people do not say, what are the topics that people avoid and 1211 01:01:31,810 --> 01:01:34,290 what are the taboos or the tensions and the conflict that 1212 01:01:34,290 --> 01:01:37,610 are in the room. So if you as a facilitator can 1213 01:01:37,610 --> 01:01:40,850 lead the group to identify all of the opinions in a group and 1214 01:01:40,850 --> 01:01:43,330 let the group present and support these opinions, even 1215 01:01:43,330 --> 01:01:46,570 those who do not like or believe to be useless, then we can talk 1216 01:01:46,570 --> 01:01:48,970 about what we accept to be a good design for the group. 1217 01:01:49,130 --> 01:01:51,610 And that is the catalyst in making sustainable design 1218 01:01:51,610 --> 01:01:53,930 decisions. So he really focuses on like 1219 01:01:54,170 --> 01:01:57,250 what is not being said, what are we avoiding, what are we 1220 01:01:57,250 --> 01:02:00,490 suppressing and actually making that more visible in a group 1221 01:02:00,490 --> 01:02:03,770 because that eventually will help you in creating the best 1222 01:02:03,770 --> 01:02:06,350 things. Thank you for this creative 1223 01:02:06,350 --> 01:02:08,510 version of three technical leadership wisdom, right. 1224 01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,840 As Hindus houses or if you look for me, I'm on Mastodon dot 1225 01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:39,480 social and on LinkedIn so feel free to reach out to me there or 1226 01:02:39,880 --> 01:02:43,040 any social media you use these things I'm not sure which one 1227 01:02:44,560 --> 01:02:09,870 yeah yeah. So there are three quarters, so 1228 01:02:09,870 --> 01:02:12,270 basically one for each, right. And I think thanks for 1229 01:02:12,270 --> 01:02:14,590 mentioning looking out for the hidden things, right. 1230 01:02:14,590 --> 01:02:16,190 This is like the hidden eyes below. 1231 01:02:16,190 --> 01:02:17,830 It could be bigger than the surface, right? 1232 01:02:17,830 --> 01:02:20,950 So I think that's very important for leaders to also think about. 1233 01:02:21,390 --> 01:02:22,910 So thank you so much for this time. 1234 01:02:22,910 --> 01:02:26,150 If people want to maybe connect, find out more about the 1235 01:02:26,150 --> 01:02:29,030 resources of the books, is there a place where they can find you 1236 01:02:29,030 --> 01:02:30,630 online? I'm on. 1237 01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:50,880 So feel free to connect and just say something like hey, listen 1238 01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:52,960 if it's LinkedIn, like listen to the podcast. 1239 01:02:52,960 --> 01:02:54,600 Loved it. Just want to connect with you on 1240 01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:57,240 LinkedIn and also if you didn't love it that you could still 1241 01:02:57,240 --> 01:02:59,840 connect and tell us what you missed or what you want to 1242 01:02:59,840 --> 01:03:03,190 discuss further. And I think we can get some 1243 01:03:03,190 --> 01:03:06,510 useful links or resources in the description of this podcast or 1244 01:03:06,510 --> 01:03:08,030 something. So yeah, we will make sure to 1245 01:03:08,030 --> 01:03:09,310 have some interesting stuff there. 1246 01:03:09,990 --> 01:03:11,710 Right. I'll put it in the show notes 1247 01:03:11,710 --> 01:03:13,950 definitely. So thank you for explaining 1248 01:03:13,950 --> 01:03:15,310 about this collaborative modeling. 1249 01:03:15,310 --> 01:03:18,510 So I hope people here get to understand about the social 1250 01:03:18,510 --> 01:03:21,270 dynamics aspect of software engineering, right and use 1251 01:03:21,270 --> 01:03:23,830 collaborative modeling or if not, collaborate more with 1252 01:03:23,870 --> 01:03:26,230 others so that you can build better software. 1253 01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:28,390 So thanks for that. Thank you. 1254 01:03:29,200 --> 01:03:30,840 All right. Thank you so much for having us. 1255 01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:36,960 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 1256 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,680 until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I 1257 01:03:39,680 --> 01:03:42,360 would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues 1258 01:03:42,640 --> 01:03:45,600 who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode. 1259 01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,840 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 1260 01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:51,240 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 1261 01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,440 It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. 1262 01:03:55,060 --> 01:03:57,860 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 1263 01:03:57,860 --> 01:04:01,700 the episode page at techlyjuno dot dev website, including the 1264 01:04:01,700 --> 01:04:04,820 full transcript, interesting quotes, and links to the 1265 01:04:04,820 --> 01:04:07,140 resources mentioned from the conversation. 1266 01:04:07,540 --> 01:04:10,620 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 1267 01:04:10,620 --> 01:04:14,420 list on techlyjuno dot dev to get notified for any future 1268 01:04:14,420 --> 01:04:16,700 episodes. Stay tuned for the next 1269 01:04:16,700 --> 01:04:19,940 Techlyjuno episode, and until then, goodbye.