1
00:00:00,090 --> 00:00:02,845
I see a lot of people that 
become a tech lead, they have 

2
00:00:02,845 --> 00:00:05,265
this old belief that I'm just 
not that good at the people 

3
00:00:05,265 --> 00:00:07,379
stuff. 
Let me focus on the tech and the

4
00:00:07,379 --> 00:00:08,700
details. 
But it's a little bit of a lie. 

5
00:00:08,700 --> 00:00:11,319
Today's guest is Martijn 
Versteeg, founder of Group 

6
00:00:11,319 --> 00:00:14,250
Effort with a background in 
organizational psychology. 

7
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,976
He's built a community of 300+ 
CTOs and engineering leaders 

8
00:00:17,976 --> 00:00:20,520
teaching them the systems behind
human behavior. 

9
00:00:20,730 --> 00:00:23,100
Many people assume that dealing 
with people is hard. 

10
00:00:23,190 --> 00:00:25,410
So tell us more about learning 
from these systems. 

11
00:00:25,465 --> 00:00:28,765
Actually the way of doing every 
psychology thing, they all have 

12
00:00:28,765 --> 00:00:31,435
systems. 
As a tech lead, you were already

13
00:00:31,435 --> 00:00:34,583
good at using systems. 
I will tell you there is a Stack

14
00:00:34,583 --> 00:00:36,565
Overflow of psychology and how 
you can access it. 

15
00:00:36,695 --> 00:00:39,062
You also have peer coaching 
groups with other engineering 

16
00:00:39,062 --> 00:00:41,050
leaders. 
Maybe tell us top challenges 

17
00:00:41,050 --> 00:00:42,775
that engineering leaders are 
facing. 

18
00:00:42,815 --> 00:00:46,083
Interestingly enough, I was 
expecting the CTO groups to be 

19
00:00:46,083 --> 00:00:47,725
extremely technical. 
But it's all about people. 

20
00:00:47,815 --> 00:00:50,434
The conflict management always 
kind of like the top challenges,

21
00:00:50,434 --> 00:00:52,245
especially if you're new to 
management, right? 

22
00:00:52,495 --> 00:00:56,301
Before you are a leader, it's 
pretty good tactic not to get 

23
00:00:56,301 --> 00:00:58,225
into conflict. 
But this is one of these 

24
00:00:58,225 --> 00:00:59,335
transformations we have to go 
through. 

25
00:00:59,425 --> 00:01:02,015
Here's the one for bad news. 
Within 10 seconds, bad news out.

26
00:01:02,065 --> 00:01:05,126
If you just skip around the 
topic, the other person, their 

27
00:01:05,126 --> 00:01:06,989
bullshit detectors are already 
bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, 

28
00:01:06,989 --> 00:01:08,663
bing, bing. 
Then separate it from the person

29
00:01:08,663 --> 00:01:11,223
as much as you can. 
One other challenge that I find 

30
00:01:11,223 --> 00:01:13,175
most of the tech leaders cannot 
let go. 

31
00:01:13,355 --> 00:01:15,420
“Nobody will be quicker if I 
just do it.” 

32
00:01:15,420 --> 00:01:18,271
If you ever catch yourself 
thinking that, no, it's always a

33
00:01:18,271 --> 00:01:20,250
lie. 
I had a founder, CTO, who was 

34
00:01:20,250 --> 00:01:22,715
struggling with this very much. 
And at one point he just saw, 

35
00:01:22,715 --> 00:01:24,827
I'm the bottleneck. 
So his quote was also amazing, 

36
00:01:24,827 --> 00:01:27,845
and that was, “If only I can do 
it, I should not do it.” 

37
00:01:44,736 --> 00:01:47,182
Hey, quick pause. 
My goal with Tech Lead Journal 

38
00:01:47,182 --> 00:01:49,766
is simple. 
Learn from the best in tech so 

39
00:01:49,766 --> 00:01:53,136
we can all grow together. 
If this resonates with you, hit 

40
00:01:53,136 --> 00:01:56,430
subscribe to follow the channel.
It's the biggest way for you to 

41
00:01:56,430 --> 00:01:59,001
support the show and help us 
keep bringing great guests and 

42
00:01:59,001 --> 00:02:01,488
insights to you. 
Thanks for being here, and let's

43
00:02:01,488 --> 00:02:03,696
get back to it. 
Hello everyone. 

44
00:02:03,696 --> 00:02:06,057
Welcome back to another new 
episode of the Tech Lead Journal

45
00:02:06,057 --> 00:02:09,928
podcast. 
Today I have a maybe like a 

46
00:02:09,928 --> 00:02:12,809
product leader slash engineering
leader, right? 

47
00:02:13,058 --> 00:02:17,163
So his name is Martijn Versteeg.
He's the founder of this 

48
00:02:17,163 --> 00:02:20,537
community called Group Effort. 
It's kind of like a peer group 

49
00:02:20,537 --> 00:02:22,259
where leaders can learn from 
each other. 

50
00:02:22,646 --> 00:02:25,556
I'll let him share a little bit 
more about the peer group. 

51
00:02:25,868 --> 00:02:29,116
But today we are going to talk a
lot more about, you know, how 

52
00:02:29,116 --> 00:02:32,472
engineering leader can become a 
much better, you know, leader 

53
00:02:32,472 --> 00:02:35,834
putting aside not just the 
technical aspects but also the 

54
00:02:35,834 --> 00:02:38,788
product aspects so that, you 
know, they can grow the 

55
00:02:38,788 --> 00:02:41,744
organization, they can grow the 
team, and they get they can grow

56
00:02:41,744 --> 00:02:44,490
themselves much better. 
So Martijn thank you so much for

57
00:02:44,490 --> 00:02:48,035
your time, welcome to the show. 
Thank you so much. 

58
00:02:48,245 --> 00:02:51,641
I look forward to this a lot 
because I think leadership in 

59
00:02:51,641 --> 00:02:54,233
tech, it can make such an impact
on a company, right? 

60
00:02:54,233 --> 00:02:57,525
So I love how you're doing this.
It's what I've listened. 

61
00:02:57,525 --> 00:03:00,501
It's always like it's both 
useful for aspiring leaders and 

62
00:03:00,501 --> 00:03:02,055
for people who are in the 
business a long time. 

63
00:03:02,055 --> 00:03:05,475
So congrats on that and can't 
wait to see if I can contribute.

64
00:03:06,177 --> 00:03:07,966
Yeah. 
Looking forward for this 

65
00:03:07,966 --> 00:03:10,586
conversation as well. 
So Martijn, maybe if you know, 

66
00:03:10,586 --> 00:03:13,791
right, so I always love to 
invite my guests first to share 

67
00:03:13,791 --> 00:03:15,983
a little bit more about 
yourself, specifically by 

68
00:03:15,983 --> 00:03:18,513
sharing career turning points 
that you think we can learn from

69
00:03:18,513 --> 00:03:20,195
you. 
Yes. 

70
00:03:21,412 --> 00:03:26,710
I prepared this question and I 
decided that the best answer to 

71
00:03:26,710 --> 00:03:31,697
the turning points is that I 
prefer to name none. 

72
00:03:33,047 --> 00:03:36,407
But I will give an intro and I 
will tell you exactly why. 

73
00:03:36,857 --> 00:03:42,077
Because what I've found is 
specifically in tech leaders, 

74
00:03:42,077 --> 00:03:45,707
there is always this need for 
more knowledge, more knowledge, 

75
00:03:45,707 --> 00:03:48,227
more knowledge. 
But then sometimes we make 

76
00:03:48,227 --> 00:03:51,842
things so big, just like a 
ticket gets too big, that we 

77
00:03:51,842 --> 00:03:53,627
kind of don't stop, go into 
action. 

78
00:03:54,107 --> 00:03:57,912
So one of the things that I 
found was if I name a career 

79
00:03:57,912 --> 00:04:01,910
turning point that I was head 
coach of Singapore rowing team, 

80
00:04:01,910 --> 00:04:06,330
in 20-2013, you might think, but
I haven't been that, so this is 

81
00:04:06,330 --> 00:04:10,346
not relevant to me. 
Or if I say a turning point is 

82
00:04:10,346 --> 00:04:13,572
when I started multiple peer 
groups across Europe, you might 

83
00:04:13,572 --> 00:04:16,680
think, but I haven't done that, 
so maybe this doesn't apply to 

84
00:04:16,680 --> 00:04:20,269
me. 
So I would say one lesson that I

85
00:04:20,269 --> 00:04:24,405
think is super relevant is in 
code you guys are great at this.

86
00:04:24,405 --> 00:04:27,465
You already know it's all about 
iteration and small steps. 

87
00:04:28,365 --> 00:04:29,835
Do the same for your personal 
growth. 

88
00:04:29,895 --> 00:04:33,885
So I will give you my two minute
intro, but I don't think it's 

89
00:04:33,885 --> 00:04:35,985
about one point that made the 
difference for me. 

90
00:04:35,985 --> 00:04:38,505
It was all the steps that made 
the journey happen. 

91
00:04:39,426 --> 00:04:41,193
Are you okay with that, Henry? 
Yeah. 

92
00:04:41,193 --> 00:04:44,473
This is quite unique sharing. 
So I love the way that you 

93
00:04:44,473 --> 00:04:46,713
mentioned in life it's all about
small step. 

94
00:04:46,713 --> 00:04:49,448
It's about iteration, right? 
So yeah, sometimes the big 

95
00:04:49,448 --> 00:04:51,747
career turning points or turning
points achievements that people 

96
00:04:51,747 --> 00:04:54,063
see that we see from people out 
there, right? 

97
00:04:54,393 --> 00:04:58,473
It's actually it's kind of like 
culmination result of hard work,

98
00:04:58,503 --> 00:05:01,203
effort, and a lot of experiments
that they did along the way. 

99
00:05:01,533 --> 00:05:04,743
So I think thanks for sharing 
that perspective and for 

100
00:05:04,743 --> 00:05:07,413
reminding us about this 
importance of, you know, finding

101
00:05:07,413 --> 00:05:09,693
your own ways, your own career 
turning points. 

102
00:05:10,283 --> 00:05:11,593
Yeah. 
So... 

103
00:05:11,886 --> 00:05:14,046
I would be happy to still give 
an intro, right? 

104
00:05:14,046 --> 00:05:15,966
Because I don't want to remain a
stranger. 

105
00:05:16,086 --> 00:05:17,026
Shall I do that? 
Is that okay? 

106
00:05:17,263 --> 00:05:18,681
Yeah. 
Cool. 

107
00:05:18,891 --> 00:05:22,053
Okay. 
So my background is in 

108
00:05:22,053 --> 00:05:24,696
organizational psychology 
combined with computer science 

109
00:05:24,696 --> 00:05:27,981
as a minor. 
So I'm in between the middle 

110
00:05:27,981 --> 00:05:31,311
ground of the people stuff and 
the tech stuff. 

111
00:05:31,731 --> 00:05:35,007
Don't ask me to review your 
code, but I'm very happy to have

112
00:05:35,007 --> 00:05:38,147
an in-depth discussion, whether 
that is about hallucinations of 

113
00:05:38,147 --> 00:05:42,323
an LLM or whether it's about 
what vectors to use in your 

114
00:05:42,323 --> 00:05:43,993
recommender model in data 
science. 

115
00:05:44,233 --> 00:05:46,633
I like the tech. 
I can go along quite far. 

116
00:05:46,843 --> 00:05:49,183
But I'm not writing or reading 
code. 

117
00:05:49,733 --> 00:05:54,009
I've been described by other 
people like your listeners as, 

118
00:05:54,009 --> 00:05:58,724
over time, yeah, he speaks nerd,
but he doesn't read or write it,

119
00:05:58,724 --> 00:06:01,280
which I think is what you can 
expect from me. 

120
00:06:01,430 --> 00:06:05,516
And this is also what I hope to 
contribute because I've led 

121
00:06:05,516 --> 00:06:09,076
technology organizations and I 
find that the value I can bring 

122
00:06:09,076 --> 00:06:12,696
is on the psychology side and 
the problem that is also there. 

123
00:06:12,696 --> 00:06:15,576
That's why I'm super excited to 
be here because I see a lot of 

124
00:06:15,576 --> 00:06:19,272
people that become a tech lead. 
They have this old belief that 

125
00:06:19,272 --> 00:06:21,486
I'm just not that good at the 
people stuff. 

126
00:06:21,636 --> 00:06:23,816
Let me focus on the tech and the
details. 

127
00:06:25,206 --> 00:06:28,898
But it's a little bit of a lie 
because there is actually the 

128
00:06:28,898 --> 00:06:32,412
way of doing every psychology 
thing people think right, they 

129
00:06:32,412 --> 00:06:35,628
all have systems. 
As a tech lead, whether you're 

130
00:06:35,628 --> 00:06:39,101
still aspiring or already that 
for a long time, you were 

131
00:06:39,101 --> 00:06:44,172
already good at using systems. 
So I hope that in this talk with

132
00:06:44,172 --> 00:06:46,041
Henry, we can talk about 
systems. 

133
00:06:46,041 --> 00:06:48,891
Systems for talking, for 
handling conflict. 

134
00:06:49,491 --> 00:06:52,681
I will tell you there is a Stack
Overflow of psychology and how 

135
00:06:52,681 --> 00:06:55,485
you can access it. 
And I'll try to get you other 

136
00:06:55,485 --> 00:06:56,811
insights that you can actually 
use. 

137
00:06:56,811 --> 00:07:00,470
That's my core goal. 
So let's try to take it from 

138
00:07:00,470 --> 00:07:01,579
there. 
Yeah. 

139
00:07:02,219 --> 00:07:05,044
Wow, I like that your background
is actually organizational 

140
00:07:05,484 --> 00:07:08,316
psychologists, right? 
So because a lot of things we 

141
00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:11,312
can learn from psychology that 
can be applied to organization, 

142
00:07:11,312 --> 00:07:13,328
team building, right, and also 
leadership. 

143
00:07:13,758 --> 00:07:16,850
And specifically just now you 
mentioned something that I find 

144
00:07:16,850 --> 00:07:20,307
very interesting because so many
tech leaders, you know, tech 

145
00:07:20,307 --> 00:07:23,959
practitioners out there, they 
actually aspire to become a much

146
00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:26,493
better person, a much better 
tech leaders. 

147
00:07:27,063 --> 00:07:30,189
Maybe growing into a more 
engineering leaders kind of a 

148
00:07:30,189 --> 00:07:34,281
position but they somehow feel 
stuck maybe in their mindset in 

149
00:07:34,281 --> 00:07:36,693
terms of opportunity or in terms
of knowledge. 

150
00:07:36,993 --> 00:07:41,195
So let's just dive deep here 
first because you mention that 

151
00:07:41,195 --> 00:07:44,803
this can be learned. 
There's a system that everyone 

152
00:07:44,803 --> 00:07:48,926
can find and learn from them 
from those resources and become 

153
00:07:48,926 --> 00:07:51,436
better, right? 
But I think many people assume 

154
00:07:51,436 --> 00:07:53,074
that dealing with people is 
hard. 

155
00:07:53,074 --> 00:07:55,344
Dealing with people is abstract,
ambiguous. 

156
00:07:55,494 --> 00:07:58,584
So tell us more about this 
learning from these systems. 

157
00:07:59,597 --> 00:08:02,132
Let's do this. 
So, first of all, I'll finish my

158
00:08:02,132 --> 00:08:04,850
background because I wasn't, I 
didn't do that because I want so

159
00:08:04,850 --> 00:08:07,112
much to give value that I 
sometimes don't shine the 

160
00:08:07,112 --> 00:08:10,017
spotlight on myself. 
I had my own education 

161
00:08:10,017 --> 00:08:13,523
technology startup, scaled it 
up, sold it after five years, 

162
00:08:13,523 --> 00:08:17,297
then I started doing groups for 
tech and product leaders. 

163
00:08:17,327 --> 00:08:20,602
It started as a group for myself
because I felt like why am I the

164
00:08:20,602 --> 00:08:23,147
only one figuring it out? 
Which ties perfect into the 

165
00:08:23,147 --> 00:08:25,787
question that I'm gonna answer 
that Henry just asked. 

166
00:08:26,177 --> 00:08:30,425
And I also find that, after 
those groups, it was working so 

167
00:08:30,425 --> 00:08:32,219
great that it became kind of a 
community. 

168
00:08:32,219 --> 00:08:36,222
So currently I'm working with, 
let's say 300 product and tech 

169
00:08:36,222 --> 00:08:39,063
leaders across Europe. 
Some of them in conferences, 

170
00:08:39,063 --> 00:08:43,638
some of them in training, some 
of them in peer groups, and even

171
00:08:43,638 --> 00:08:46,792
some one-on-one coaching which 
is very limited now. 

172
00:08:47,574 --> 00:08:52,388
There I teach these systems. 
So one of the systems I want to 

173
00:08:52,388 --> 00:08:56,766
talk about is there's actually a
pretty good predictor of human 

174
00:08:56,766 --> 00:09:00,644
behavior, and I can summarize it
in three minutes, if you're okay

175
00:09:00,644 --> 00:09:04,037
with this. 
There is only a certain amount 

176
00:09:04,037 --> 00:09:06,029
of needs and this transcends 
culture. 

177
00:09:06,449 --> 00:09:09,659
There's a couple of needs that 
every person has. 

178
00:09:10,398 --> 00:09:14,518
And those needs are, I'll tell 
them one by one, one is people 

179
00:09:14,518 --> 00:09:16,484
like to know what's gonna happen
next. 

180
00:09:16,814 --> 00:09:19,394
You could call it certainty, you
could call it stability. 

181
00:09:19,928 --> 00:09:22,268
I'll provide a link to a written
out version. 

182
00:09:22,718 --> 00:09:25,688
Then if people know what's gonna
happen next, what happens if 

183
00:09:25,688 --> 00:09:28,268
that's the only thing they have.
You'll get bored. 

184
00:09:29,198 --> 00:09:31,868
So we also have a certain need 
for variety. 

185
00:09:32,596 --> 00:09:36,580
Then thirdly, if we get variety 
and stability, right, we also 

186
00:09:36,580 --> 00:09:39,496
all want to grow or at least 
perceive we're growing. 

187
00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:41,766
I'm assuming that you're 
listening to this podcast to 

188
00:09:41,766 --> 00:09:44,218
find something, and I'm assuming
even for Henry, part of this 

189
00:09:44,218 --> 00:09:47,266
might be I want to keep growing 
so I'll just interview people. 

190
00:09:47,566 --> 00:09:51,346
So that's growth. 
After growth, you have status. 

191
00:09:51,676 --> 00:09:55,078
It is interestingly enough, for 
everyone in the world, it's a 

192
00:09:55,078 --> 00:09:57,388
common thing. 
We like to have a certain amount

193
00:09:57,388 --> 00:09:59,594
of status. 
Some of us are humble and feel 

194
00:09:59,594 --> 00:10:04,026
pretty okay with a status that 
is not like that fits in a 

195
00:10:04,026 --> 00:10:07,400
normal size room. 
So like Elon needs so much that 

196
00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,834
other people think you are 
pretty crazy. 

197
00:10:10,765 --> 00:10:14,770
But it's a need. 
And then there is the need for 

198
00:10:14,770 --> 00:10:16,765
connection. 
We want to relate to others. 

199
00:10:16,855 --> 00:10:20,767
And the last need is giving. 
That's why it feels so good to 

200
00:10:20,767 --> 00:10:22,735
teach a junior how to do code 
better. 

201
00:10:23,185 --> 00:10:26,155
So all of these are steered by 
just two things. 

202
00:10:26,155 --> 00:10:29,200
And I'm hoping to discuss this 
in depth after, but I just want 

203
00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:33,295
to give the whole model. 
It's a subjective scale. 

204
00:10:34,091 --> 00:10:37,529
It is a model. 
I can get more stability and 

205
00:10:37,529 --> 00:10:40,707
less stability, but my 
experience could be rated from a

206
00:10:40,707 --> 00:10:46,309
zero to a 10. 
Thing is even if Henry and me 

207
00:10:46,309 --> 00:10:51,683
compare, maybe my 10 is Henry's 
five or the other way around. 

208
00:10:52,283 --> 00:10:55,505
So this model works when you ask
the perspective of the person 

209
00:10:55,505 --> 00:10:58,553
you're testing this with. 
You can ask where are you? 

210
00:10:58,703 --> 00:11:01,283
What is your current experience?
How stable do you feel? 

211
00:11:01,553 --> 00:11:03,533
How much variety do you 
experience? 

212
00:11:03,593 --> 00:11:06,593
How much growth? 
How much status? 

213
00:11:06,653 --> 00:11:08,373
How much connection? 
How much giving? 

214
00:11:09,373 --> 00:11:12,733
I found this, I started using 
this very intensively around 

215
00:11:12,733 --> 00:11:15,668
COVID when I was an Agile coach 
for a company that just said, 

216
00:11:15,668 --> 00:11:17,573
keep our people. 
That's the most important. 

217
00:11:17,573 --> 00:11:20,885
Take care of my people. 
And we used this and it was a 

218
00:11:20,885 --> 00:11:23,964
pretty good predictor. 
If three of these went to a five

219
00:11:23,964 --> 00:11:25,940
or lower, people started looking
for a job. 

220
00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:30,200
So this is a model that explains
most every behavior. 

221
00:11:30,530 --> 00:11:33,650
And I would say your experience 
of one of these needs going 

222
00:11:33,650 --> 00:11:36,980
down, you could call that very, 
very simplified, pain. 

223
00:11:37,700 --> 00:11:40,850
All negative feelings. 
That is, it's going back. 

224
00:11:41,450 --> 00:11:45,363
If it's going up, that feels 
like pleasure, meaning all 

225
00:11:45,363 --> 00:11:48,554
positive emotions. 
Now three more things and I, and

226
00:11:48,554 --> 00:11:53,105
you have a pretty grasp of basic
behavior for humans. 

227
00:11:53,345 --> 00:11:57,455
One, we do more to avoid pain 
than to gain pleasure. 

228
00:11:58,370 --> 00:11:59,820
Sometimes we want to read, 
right? 

229
00:11:59,820 --> 00:12:01,830
There's, I have a bookcase to my
right. 

230
00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:05,618
There's a lot of people that buy
these books and then don't read 

231
00:12:05,618 --> 00:12:09,206
them, right? 
Because the pain of taking the 

232
00:12:09,206 --> 00:12:13,817
time to read it is more real to 
us than the pleasure of getting 

233
00:12:13,817 --> 00:12:16,447
the book done. 
That's number one. 

234
00:12:16,477 --> 00:12:19,387
Number two, short-term is more 
real to us than long-term. 

235
00:12:20,216 --> 00:12:23,996
It's so much easier to focus on 
what is at hand, whether that be

236
00:12:24,206 --> 00:12:26,658
that one bug that you focus on 
because you don't want to have 

237
00:12:26,658 --> 00:12:29,006
that strategic discussion at 
this moment. 

238
00:12:30,026 --> 00:12:33,902
Or whether it is you wanting to 
be in great shape, being able to

239
00:12:33,902 --> 00:12:36,056
run 10 marathons. 
Congrats, Henry. 

240
00:12:37,583 --> 00:12:41,839
Even if you say you want to have
the body to run 10 marathons, 

241
00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:43,703
it's tempting to take the apple 
pie. 

242
00:12:43,943 --> 00:12:46,582
Why? 
Because the apple pie of now is 

243
00:12:46,582 --> 00:12:50,051
more real to us than the 42 
kilometers a month or two months

244
00:12:50,051 --> 00:12:54,099
or three months from now. 
We do more to avoid pain than to

245
00:12:54,099 --> 00:12:57,207
gain pleasure. 
And we have short-term is more 

246
00:12:57,207 --> 00:13:02,481
real to us than long-term. 
Now this altogether is a pretty 

247
00:13:02,481 --> 00:13:04,635
good explanation of people's 
behavior. 

248
00:13:05,295 --> 00:13:07,845
So there is a system and I just 
want to give you this one. 

249
00:13:07,875 --> 00:13:10,665
I'll make sure there's a written
out one on my website, which we 

250
00:13:10,665 --> 00:13:13,340
can link to in the show notes. 
But I just wanted to start 

251
00:13:13,340 --> 00:13:15,280
there. 
And I hope Henry will try to 

252
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:18,000
break it for me because that's 
the biggest honor you could do 

253
00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:19,968
this. 
Wow! 

254
00:13:19,968 --> 00:13:22,874
Thank you for sharing. 
I feel so many things that we 

255
00:13:22,874 --> 00:13:25,098
can peel from these so-called 
concepts, right? 

256
00:13:25,548 --> 00:13:27,858
How do you predict people's 
behavior? 

257
00:13:27,888 --> 00:13:30,721
How do you predict, you know, 
maybe the team dynamics, right, 

258
00:13:30,721 --> 00:13:32,928
how people behave within 
organizations? 

259
00:13:33,198 --> 00:13:37,188
So maybe let's try to, you know,
go one by one. 

260
00:13:37,428 --> 00:13:40,446
So I think you mentioned about 
the so-called five things that 

261
00:13:40,446 --> 00:13:43,488
people kind of like crave, the 
first is like certainty. 

262
00:13:43,518 --> 00:13:46,348
Yes, we kind of like want to 
know the future. 

263
00:13:46,848 --> 00:13:50,148
Maybe not so far ahead future 
but at least tomorrow, next 

264
00:13:50,148 --> 00:13:51,828
week, next year, and so on and 
so forth. 

265
00:13:52,158 --> 00:13:55,658
Then we want to have variety. 
That's why we all have different

266
00:13:55,658 --> 00:13:57,533
options, different tools, 
different frameworks, different 

267
00:13:57,533 --> 00:14:00,738
tech stack, and all that. 
We wanna grow, we wanna learn 

268
00:14:00,738 --> 00:14:03,798
from our craft, our career. 
Not just doing the same thing. 

269
00:14:04,298 --> 00:14:06,648
We want a status at some point 
in time, right? 

270
00:14:06,648 --> 00:14:10,632
Maybe career ladder, maybe in 
your community, whatever that 

271
00:14:10,632 --> 00:14:12,716
is, right? 
Or maybe social media these 

272
00:14:12,716 --> 00:14:15,716
days. 
You wanna be feel connected with

273
00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:19,061
other people, creating the 
networks, and also giving at the

274
00:14:19,061 --> 00:14:20,846
end, you know, like servicing to
others. 

275
00:14:21,406 --> 00:14:24,508
How does someone actually use 
this different, like different 

276
00:14:24,508 --> 00:14:27,194
needs I would say. 
Like different needs, human 

277
00:14:27,194 --> 00:14:30,649
parts, right? 
How do they use it in their, I 

278
00:14:30,649 --> 00:14:33,843
don't know, day-to-day life or 
career or even in leadership, 

279
00:14:33,843 --> 00:14:35,144
right? 
So tell us more about this. 

280
00:14:35,212 --> 00:14:38,785
I, I love that you're 
immediately asking me for the 

281
00:14:38,785 --> 00:14:40,942
tactical. 
So we have the knowledge now, 

282
00:14:40,942 --> 00:14:43,342
and that's fantastic. 
You can use this in two ways. 

283
00:14:43,537 --> 00:14:46,826
One, you can self-assess this 
because it will make it easier 

284
00:14:46,826 --> 00:14:48,892
for yourself to understand your 
own behavior. 

285
00:14:49,642 --> 00:14:52,372
How do I currently experience 
stability? 

286
00:14:52,642 --> 00:14:56,152
Is it terrible being one and 
awesome being 10? 

287
00:14:56,602 --> 00:14:58,993
So you could do that. 
But you can also do this when 

288
00:14:58,993 --> 00:15:00,452
you are a tech lead for your 
devs. 

289
00:15:00,982 --> 00:15:03,532
Because it is actually a great 
question to ask. 

290
00:15:03,532 --> 00:15:07,702
It also gives them a one-on-one 
that is less like vague, right? 

291
00:15:07,702 --> 00:15:09,442
Why are we having this 
one-on-one about my feelings? 

292
00:15:09,442 --> 00:15:11,122
I just wanna talk about code, 
right? 

293
00:15:11,362 --> 00:15:15,845
But if you make it concrete, I 
see most devs, even our friends 

294
00:15:15,845 --> 00:15:19,847
that are like hesitant to even 
accept any one-on-ones. 

295
00:15:20,407 --> 00:15:22,957
They like a system. 
Oh, this has nice boxes, right? 

296
00:15:23,227 --> 00:15:25,603
But you will get a pretty good 
indication and you'd be 

297
00:15:25,603 --> 00:15:28,885
surprised what you learn. 
And as a tech lead, I think you 

298
00:15:28,885 --> 00:15:31,709
should also focus on then 
looking at are there any low 

299
00:15:31,709 --> 00:15:33,439
numbers, I would say five or 
lower. 

300
00:15:33,919 --> 00:15:36,799
That would be something to work 
on, on the growth of your 

301
00:15:36,799 --> 00:15:38,914
people. 
Because you might have this 

302
00:15:38,914 --> 00:15:40,909
amazing senior in your team, 
right? 

303
00:15:42,019 --> 00:15:46,075
If they experience no more 
growth and that goes down and 

304
00:15:46,075 --> 00:15:50,594
down and down, you should better
catch that before they start 

305
00:15:50,594 --> 00:15:55,189
looking for a new job. 
And I think that's the two 

306
00:15:55,189 --> 00:15:57,429
practical ways that I 
immediately recommend you do 

307
00:15:57,429 --> 00:16:00,627
this. 
Pro tip: you're gonna get the 

308
00:16:00,627 --> 00:16:03,609
numbers, right? 
If people struggle, just tell 

309
00:16:03,609 --> 00:16:06,609
them, go with your gut feeling. 
Don't worry about it being seven

310
00:16:06,609 --> 00:16:09,593
or an eight because that's still
closer to get than a two and an 

311
00:16:09,593 --> 00:16:11,265
eight. 
It's about direction. 

312
00:16:11,685 --> 00:16:14,265
Pro tip number two: you can ask 
about trends. 

313
00:16:14,685 --> 00:16:16,935
So you can say like, okay, it's 
currently a five. 

314
00:16:16,965 --> 00:16:19,215
If we continue like this where 
will this be? 

315
00:16:19,455 --> 00:16:22,425
Like ask people to project in 
the future 'cause that's super 

316
00:16:22,425 --> 00:16:25,383
useful. 
And number three, if you have 

317
00:16:25,383 --> 00:16:29,415
low numbers, instead of assuming
what your 10 is is also then 

318
00:16:29,415 --> 00:16:34,153
their 10, ask them what does a 
10 on growth or a 10 on status 

319
00:16:34,153 --> 00:16:37,977
look like for you. 
And I will guarantee this will 

320
00:16:37,977 --> 00:16:40,667
immediately yield you something 
to improve your team. 

321
00:16:40,937 --> 00:16:44,261
And it will keep more people in 
your team, definitely, but it 

322
00:16:44,261 --> 00:16:48,165
will also deepen that sense of 
we are building something great 

323
00:16:48,165 --> 00:16:49,967
together. 
Yeah. 

324
00:16:50,417 --> 00:16:52,144
And I think you mentioned about 
one-on-one, right? 

325
00:16:52,144 --> 00:16:55,784
I think this is one maybe tool 
that you can use to actually 

326
00:16:55,784 --> 00:16:58,438
create a conversation, build 
conversations and even like 

327
00:16:58,438 --> 00:17:00,964
build connections with that 
person itself, right? 

328
00:17:01,294 --> 00:17:04,901
So I think one thing that I 
think, I assume, right, so this 

329
00:17:04,901 --> 00:17:07,898
is not to maximize all the needs
for individuals, right? 

330
00:17:07,898 --> 00:17:09,608
Again like you mentioned about 
subjectivity. 

331
00:17:10,269 --> 00:17:13,189
Different people have different 
priorities or different needs. 

332
00:17:13,929 --> 00:17:17,618
And there's a spectrum, right? 
So my, your 10 might not be my 

333
00:17:17,618 --> 00:17:20,967
10 and vice versa, right? 
So this is something that not 

334
00:17:20,967 --> 00:17:23,108
for everyone to maximize all of 
them. 

335
00:17:23,108 --> 00:17:25,873
But depending on their situation
and the depending on the 

336
00:17:25,873 --> 00:17:28,148
subjective preference, this 
could be different. 

337
00:17:28,649 --> 00:17:32,028
So how does this differ with, I 
don't know, something else what 

338
00:17:32,028 --> 00:17:34,797
I know is about Maslow's 
hierarchy of needs, right, that 

339
00:17:34,797 --> 00:17:37,289
is commonly used for assessing 
human needs? 

340
00:17:38,391 --> 00:17:41,391
Yeah. 
So Maslow starts with safety, 

341
00:17:41,391 --> 00:17:43,436
right? 
So actually start with physical 

342
00:17:43,436 --> 00:17:46,701
needs and then safety. 
I'm assuming that in your work, 

343
00:17:46,701 --> 00:17:48,381
those two are not, no longer 
relevant. 

344
00:17:49,281 --> 00:17:51,291
Self-actualization is at the 
end. 

345
00:17:51,621 --> 00:17:53,871
One of the critiques, so it's 
perfect that you notice. 

346
00:17:53,871 --> 00:17:56,193
By the way, for everyone, 
there's a pyramid, Maslow's 

347
00:17:56,193 --> 00:17:58,731
pyramid, we'll probably also 
refer that. 

348
00:17:58,731 --> 00:18:01,431
I, if you need a picture, I, I 
have those from training slides.

349
00:18:02,072 --> 00:18:05,304
But it says about, first you 
need to take care of your 

350
00:18:05,304 --> 00:18:08,268
physiological needs. 
Then you need to take care of 

351
00:18:08,268 --> 00:18:09,848
your security needs, your 
safety. 

352
00:18:10,328 --> 00:18:13,381
And it rolls up all the way to 
the top being 

353
00:18:13,381 --> 00:18:16,508
self-actualization. 
It's a useful thing to think 

354
00:18:16,508 --> 00:18:20,207
about humans that are in lack 
and where physical needs are a 

355
00:18:20,207 --> 00:18:22,585
theme and where physical safety 
are a theme. 

356
00:18:23,121 --> 00:18:25,551
Like it's a more zoomed out 
picture of this. 

357
00:18:25,551 --> 00:18:31,030
Because of course, if you have a
dev that is just physically like

358
00:18:31,030 --> 00:18:34,736
in pain, then Maslow's theory is
more relevant. 

359
00:18:34,796 --> 00:18:37,726
It won't necessarily come from 
each of these, but it will show 

360
00:18:37,726 --> 00:18:40,546
up still because it will show up
in stability being low probably.

361
00:18:40,816 --> 00:18:43,906
So I say Maslow is way more 
zoomed out. 

362
00:18:44,026 --> 00:18:46,396
It's for higher level 
assessment. 

363
00:18:46,816 --> 00:18:49,766
In work, we want to go for more 
personal needs. 

364
00:18:49,766 --> 00:18:53,330
And I think it's a more zoomed 
in version and more practical 

365
00:18:53,330 --> 00:18:55,216
just for the two tools I gave 
you. 

366
00:18:55,693 --> 00:18:59,677
And a third way of using it, 
whenever you don't understand 

367
00:18:59,677 --> 00:19:02,095
behavior which can happen 
because everyone acts 

368
00:19:02,095 --> 00:19:04,753
differently, ask yourself what 
need is this serving? 

369
00:19:05,443 --> 00:19:07,033
And if you don't know, you can 
even ask. 

370
00:19:07,573 --> 00:19:10,085
Because they're like, can I 
just, if we categorize it, which

371
00:19:10,085 --> 00:19:14,132
one of you, these are you? 
Because sometimes, why is this 

372
00:19:14,132 --> 00:19:17,474
dev going in conflict? 
Because for them there are some 

373
00:19:17,474 --> 00:19:20,286
rules around connection, which 
means you always need to be very

374
00:19:20,286 --> 00:19:22,724
straight. 
Or maybe it's because for them 

375
00:19:22,724 --> 00:19:25,756
I'm going into conflict because 
status is super important to me 

376
00:19:25,756 --> 00:19:28,704
and the moment that you don't 
listen to me, I feel that status

377
00:19:28,704 --> 00:19:31,735
is decreasing. 
I challenge everyone who listens

378
00:19:31,735 --> 00:19:34,201
to this. 
If you find a way to break it, 

379
00:19:34,201 --> 00:19:36,297
I'll be very happy because I've 
been saying this for multiple 

380
00:19:36,297 --> 00:19:38,247
years. 
Break it please, because we can 

381
00:19:38,247 --> 00:19:40,785
make it better. 
But this is the most functional 

382
00:19:40,785 --> 00:19:44,345
way I've found to systemize 
human behavior in a short and 

383
00:19:44,345 --> 00:19:47,325
concise way. 
Just try it. 

384
00:19:47,385 --> 00:19:52,053
If you like it, try it. 
In a way, it's kind of like a 

385
00:19:52,053 --> 00:19:53,828
dictionary, right? 
So, you know, in psychology 

386
00:19:53,828 --> 00:19:56,183
there are so many different 
models and frameworks, right? 

387
00:19:56,183 --> 00:19:59,789
Not just about, you know, this 
human needs but also like 

388
00:19:59,789 --> 00:20:02,183
people's characteristics. 
You know, I know something 

389
00:20:02,183 --> 00:20:05,569
called INTJ and all that. 
I dunno what it's called, the 

390
00:20:05,569 --> 00:20:07,713
framework. 
Also like red, blue, green, 

391
00:20:07,713 --> 00:20:11,157
those kind of stuff yeah. 
This is perfect, thank you. 

392
00:20:11,175 --> 00:20:12,975
I'm so grateful that you brought
that up. 

393
00:20:13,515 --> 00:20:16,665
Internal validity of most 
commercially available, sorry. 

394
00:20:16,665 --> 00:20:21,010
I'll also go slow on this. 
The internal validity of most 

395
00:20:21,010 --> 00:20:24,152
commercially marketed 
personality tools suck. 

396
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,233
Can I say that? 
It's like the ones that you 

397
00:20:28,233 --> 00:20:31,911
named, the first one is called 
the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator.

398
00:20:32,271 --> 00:20:35,641
While some people swear by it, 
if you look at the internal 

399
00:20:35,641 --> 00:20:39,111
validity, it's built on some 
concepts by Carl Jung. 

400
00:20:39,641 --> 00:20:43,889
And there's some Jung fans out 
there still, but they don't hold

401
00:20:43,889 --> 00:20:47,448
to be true, if you try to pick 
them apart with the scientific 

402
00:20:47,448 --> 00:20:49,461
method, they're not stable 
enough over time. 

403
00:20:50,511 --> 00:20:53,115
The other one you mentioned, the
colors, there is a lot of 

404
00:20:53,115 --> 00:20:55,131
popular ones, but one, for 
example is DiSC. 

405
00:20:55,911 --> 00:21:00,831
There is no scientific data on 
that being stable over time. 

406
00:21:01,101 --> 00:21:03,945
People have different roles in 
different groups, we already 

407
00:21:03,945 --> 00:21:06,676
know that. 
But there's another problem with

408
00:21:06,676 --> 00:21:09,265
this. 
If you put a sticker on someone,

409
00:21:09,265 --> 00:21:12,660
you also give them a way to say 
this is just how I am. 

410
00:21:13,410 --> 00:21:14,970
I cannot do this because I am 
blue. 

411
00:21:15,807 --> 00:21:19,235
And like, there's a lot of 
moments where labels are super 

412
00:21:19,235 --> 00:21:20,952
relevant, right? 
I mean, everyone likes their 

413
00:21:20,952 --> 00:21:24,449
code to be neat and you want to 
know what this piece does, 

414
00:21:24,449 --> 00:21:26,431
please, right? 
Because how are you gonna test 

415
00:21:26,431 --> 00:21:29,306
it otherwise? 
But for people, we have this 

416
00:21:29,306 --> 00:21:32,864
thing that whenever we are 
labeled, we tend to also change 

417
00:21:32,864 --> 00:21:36,033
our behavior. 
Yeah, I think that somehow feels

418
00:21:36,033 --> 00:21:37,622
true. 
So especially if something that 

419
00:21:37,622 --> 00:21:40,267
doesn't really resonate with 
your, I don't know, like your 

420
00:21:40,267 --> 00:21:42,371
value, your habit, your 
background, culture, and all 

421
00:21:42,371 --> 00:21:44,985
that, right? 
So I think, yeah, all models, 

422
00:21:44,985 --> 00:21:49,557
it's good for us to be aware of.
Maybe use it for our advantage. 

423
00:21:49,557 --> 00:21:52,224
But one thing for sure like 
not... 

424
00:21:52,224 --> 00:21:56,032
Like I don't think all of them 
is 100% accurate. 

425
00:21:56,032 --> 00:21:58,952
So I think it depends on how you
use it and what kind of purpose.

426
00:21:59,102 --> 00:22:01,655
And I think one critical aspect 
that this is also I learned from

427
00:22:01,655 --> 00:22:05,515
my experience is not good for 
leaders to use this to 

428
00:22:05,515 --> 00:22:08,956
compartmentalize people or to 
put labels on people and think, 

429
00:22:08,956 --> 00:22:11,926
assume that they won't change. 
Because what I understand at 

430
00:22:11,926 --> 00:22:14,421
least from me as well, I tend to
change over time. 

431
00:22:14,601 --> 00:22:17,661
Depending on the, again, like 
experience, situations, new 

432
00:22:17,661 --> 00:22:19,604
knowledge that comes in and all 
that. 

433
00:22:19,874 --> 00:22:24,075
So thanks for highlighting that.
The beauty of what you just said

434
00:22:24,075 --> 00:22:27,230
is, that's why I don't believe 
in personality labeling. 

435
00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,295
Because personality, that 
assumes that personality is 

436
00:22:30,295 --> 00:22:34,632
stable over time, which if you 
zoom out to a big enough 

437
00:22:34,632 --> 00:22:37,160
population is true because most 
people don't change. 

438
00:22:37,460 --> 00:22:40,370
But I think if you're listening 
to a podcast, you are already 

439
00:22:40,370 --> 00:22:43,618
looking for growth, right? 
Maybe you'll even try one or two

440
00:22:43,618 --> 00:22:47,720
of the things that you learn, 
which makes you top 1%. 

441
00:22:47,900 --> 00:22:50,780
But for those people, it's even 
less efficient and it can 

442
00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:54,332
definitely hold you back. 
And I want to, just because it 

443
00:22:54,332 --> 00:22:57,981
was so close to what you were 
saying, when people ask me like 

444
00:22:57,981 --> 00:22:59,771
can you summarize your 
psychology study? 

445
00:22:59,771 --> 00:23:03,956
I always say, with humans, a 
model is better than no model, 

446
00:23:03,956 --> 00:23:07,226
but no model is perfect. 
So just wanted to give that. 

447
00:23:07,496 --> 00:23:08,456
Sorry, continue. 
My bad. 

448
00:23:09,528 --> 00:23:13,256
This kind of like reminds me of 
this phrase the map is not the 

449
00:23:13,256 --> 00:23:16,060
territory or something like 
that, right, where you can have 

450
00:23:16,060 --> 00:23:19,638
the model but it's not the 
actual depiction of the actual 

451
00:23:19,638 --> 00:23:22,628
situation, yeah. 
So, yeah, one thing that I find 

452
00:23:22,628 --> 00:23:25,626
very interesting you mentioned 
about this which I relate very 

453
00:23:25,626 --> 00:23:27,411
closely with personal growth, 
right? 

454
00:23:27,411 --> 00:23:31,539
You mentioned people want to 
avoid pain as much as, you know,

455
00:23:31,539 --> 00:23:33,671
seeking more pleasure. 
That's the thing. 

456
00:23:33,671 --> 00:23:36,709
And the second one is the 
short-term is something that is 

457
00:23:36,709 --> 00:23:39,401
more prioritized for people 
rather than the long-term. 

458
00:23:39,951 --> 00:23:43,251
So I find this a very good 
indicators for people to always 

459
00:23:43,251 --> 00:23:47,211
put in their back of the mind in
order for them to grow, right? 

460
00:23:47,541 --> 00:23:51,169
So tell us how do you use these 
two psychological insights, I 

461
00:23:51,169 --> 00:23:55,692
would say maybe, for people to 
actually, you know, improve 

462
00:23:55,692 --> 00:23:57,673
themselves. 
Good. 

463
00:23:58,003 --> 00:24:01,752
So you can actually manipulate 
or change, manipulate sounds 

464
00:24:01,752 --> 00:24:04,684
like you're doing something 
negative, but you can change 

465
00:24:04,684 --> 00:24:07,209
what you personally for. 
I'm now starting with yourself 

466
00:24:07,209 --> 00:24:10,160
by the way. 
You can change what you relate 

467
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:13,136
to something. 
Let's start with the short-term 

468
00:24:13,136 --> 00:24:16,602
versus long-term. 
The way you change that is to 

469
00:24:16,602 --> 00:24:19,934
show your brain which is just a 
survival mechanism, so it's just

470
00:24:19,934 --> 00:24:23,060
set on the now to survive. 
If you look like very primal, 

471
00:24:23,060 --> 00:24:26,564
that's how it works. 
In coaching, for example, I 

472
00:24:26,564 --> 00:24:30,869
would just pull the future to 
the now because our brain has a 

473
00:24:30,869 --> 00:24:32,864
beautiful viewing screen. 
We have a fantasy. 

474
00:24:33,014 --> 00:24:35,832
And even if you're saying, I'm 
super logical, I don't have, 

475
00:24:35,832 --> 00:24:38,774
well close your eyes and what is
my skin color? 

476
00:24:38,894 --> 00:24:41,734
How do you know, right? 
It is something you can 

477
00:24:41,734 --> 00:24:43,484
remember. 
It is what our brain does. 

478
00:24:43,874 --> 00:24:47,084
What is interesting about that 
is you can tell someone, you can

479
00:24:47,084 --> 00:24:50,906
say like, okay, about the apple 
pie, let's make it not about 

480
00:24:50,906 --> 00:24:52,488
tech. 
Let's make it about health for a

481
00:24:52,488 --> 00:24:55,390
second. 
A person says I have really hard

482
00:24:55,390 --> 00:24:58,745
time withstanding the apple pie.
And I want to get more fit. 

483
00:24:59,825 --> 00:25:03,950
I would ask them, can you 
imagine yourself keeping in that

484
00:25:03,950 --> 00:25:07,768
direction? 
What would you look like in five

485
00:25:07,768 --> 00:25:11,061
years? 
Imagine how that feels and how 

486
00:25:11,061 --> 00:25:14,150
that looks. 
What would happen in 10? 

487
00:25:14,780 --> 00:25:18,038
What would happen in 20? 
And the strange thing is, it's 

488
00:25:18,038 --> 00:25:21,336
the emotion that is there that 
will change your mind on this. 

489
00:25:21,336 --> 00:25:23,841
So you can do this for yourself.
If you have behaviors you 

490
00:25:23,841 --> 00:25:27,584
haven't been able to change. 
Like, for example, I know a lot 

491
00:25:27,584 --> 00:25:31,284
of tech leads are, I'm just 
super stressed out about bad 

492
00:25:31,284 --> 00:25:33,816
news conversations. 
Telling my dev that they're not 

493
00:25:33,816 --> 00:25:36,466
good enough or telling them no 
when they ask for a raise. 

494
00:25:36,486 --> 00:25:38,946
So I, I'd rather just escalate 
it one level up, right? 

495
00:25:38,946 --> 00:25:41,796
This is a very common theme for,
yeah, I see recognition. 

496
00:25:43,451 --> 00:25:47,621
What you could then change for 
yourself is you can reframe. 

497
00:25:47,711 --> 00:25:50,683
And you can first ask like, why 
is this painful? 

498
00:25:50,683 --> 00:25:54,058
But you can also, so the 
conversation itself is 

499
00:25:54,058 --> 00:25:55,663
short-term pain, right? 
Oh no. 

500
00:25:55,723 --> 00:25:57,793
I need to do something that's 
uncomfortable to another person.

501
00:25:57,793 --> 00:26:00,175
It feels like almost, for some 
people it feels like you're 

502
00:26:00,175 --> 00:26:04,191
stabbing them, right? 
But if you go long-term, say, if

503
00:26:04,191 --> 00:26:08,953
I don't say this now to this 
person, what am I taking away 

504
00:26:08,953 --> 00:26:11,643
from them? 
So not what I'm taking away now,

505
00:26:11,643 --> 00:26:13,011
but what am I taking away 
long-term? 

506
00:26:14,681 --> 00:26:16,331
And I'm not saying be 
indelicate, right? 

507
00:26:16,331 --> 00:26:20,820
But if a developer is 
underperforming in any front, 

508
00:26:20,820 --> 00:26:25,090
not saying it in the long term 
will provide the whole unit with

509
00:26:25,090 --> 00:26:27,989
more pain. 
That person, you, everyone will 

510
00:26:27,989 --> 00:26:31,716
get more pain in the long run. 
So sometimes it's just a, a 

511
00:26:31,716 --> 00:26:34,612
matter of you change your mind 
by asking what does this mean 

512
00:26:34,612 --> 00:26:37,422
long-term? 
And the safe thing about that 

513
00:26:37,422 --> 00:26:39,084
question is it's still you 
answering it. 

514
00:26:39,084 --> 00:26:43,578
So you're not, even if you ask 
this of a person, it's their 

515
00:26:43,578 --> 00:26:45,660
future. 
So I feel very safe. 

516
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,755
Let's say someone else comes to 
me and they say like, oh, I have

517
00:26:49,755 --> 00:26:52,835
a hard time changing this. 
If I ask like, what happens 

518
00:26:52,835 --> 00:26:54,806
long-term? 
I'm not steering them their 

519
00:26:54,806 --> 00:26:56,915
behavior, right? 
I'm not telling them this is how

520
00:26:56,915 --> 00:26:58,200
you need to change your 
behavior. 

521
00:26:58,410 --> 00:27:00,630
I'm just helping them make the 
long-term more real. 

522
00:27:02,190 --> 00:27:04,430
And I think this is... 
Another one's procrastination, 

523
00:27:04,430 --> 00:27:06,378
right? 
Procrastination, it's just that 

524
00:27:06,378 --> 00:27:11,850
doing the work is more painful 
to us than not doing the work. 

525
00:27:12,660 --> 00:27:14,970
And at one point, it reverses if
you have a deadline, right? 

526
00:27:15,030 --> 00:27:16,380
That is like, I'm gonna do it 
now. 

527
00:27:16,410 --> 00:27:19,548
And then like two hours before 
deadline, you go crazy and you 

528
00:27:19,548 --> 00:27:22,680
do it. 
That's another one of these. 

529
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:26,604
You could ask for yourself, like
what would be the pleasure of 

530
00:27:26,604 --> 00:27:29,696
actually doing it now? 
What is the pain that I might 

531
00:27:29,696 --> 00:27:32,574
not get if I do it now? 
The last minute stress. 

532
00:27:33,054 --> 00:27:35,420
So I think oftentimes the 
questions, and I'll note a 

533
00:27:35,420 --> 00:27:38,298
couple down as well, because I 
don't want people to feel they 

534
00:27:38,298 --> 00:27:41,631
have to remember everything now,
but there's a, there's like four

535
00:27:41,631 --> 00:27:46,179
or five questions you can use to
like... it's almost like zooming

536
00:27:46,179 --> 00:27:50,059
out of behavior. 
And the beauty of this, what I 

537
00:27:50,059 --> 00:27:53,804
like about it is, it's always 
the person with the behavior 

538
00:27:53,804 --> 00:27:56,004
making the choice. 
It's never you dictating what 

539
00:27:56,004 --> 00:27:59,507
someone else should do. 
Because I think that is, that's 

540
00:27:59,507 --> 00:28:02,946
giving advice and that's not 
always the way to go, 

541
00:28:02,946 --> 00:28:04,530
specifically when it's about 
personal behavior. 

542
00:28:05,470 --> 00:28:07,240
So I hope that was a useful 
answer. 

543
00:28:08,253 --> 00:28:10,821
Yeah, definitely. 
So I think it's all about 

544
00:28:10,821 --> 00:28:13,810
reframing how do you see, you 
know, pain versus pleasure, 

545
00:28:13,810 --> 00:28:17,072
short-term versus long-term. 
And obviously, for you to grow, 

546
00:28:17,072 --> 00:28:20,086
right, you always have to look 
it from the long-term 

547
00:28:20,086 --> 00:28:22,562
perspective. 
And also for, you know, growing 

548
00:28:22,562 --> 00:28:25,377
up yourself, right? 
It's not just to avoid pain 

549
00:28:25,377 --> 00:28:28,636
because by avoiding pain doesn't
mean you will grow necessarily 

550
00:28:28,636 --> 00:28:32,536
in my opinion. 
So using all these tools, I 

551
00:28:32,536 --> 00:28:36,104
think tech leaders now have a 
certain psychological behavioral

552
00:28:36,104 --> 00:28:39,662
aspects that they can use. 
You also have these peer 

553
00:28:39,662 --> 00:28:41,432
coaching groups with other 
engineering leaders. 

554
00:28:41,432 --> 00:28:44,887
Maybe tell us, maybe top 
problems or top challenges that,

555
00:28:44,887 --> 00:28:48,965
you know, engineering leaders 
are facing in their career or in

556
00:28:48,965 --> 00:28:52,192
their day-to-day life that you 
can share with us so that we can

557
00:28:52,192 --> 00:28:57,451
also learn from that. 100%. 
So the peer groups came from me 

558
00:28:57,451 --> 00:29:01,135
personally, being a CPTO and 
feeling a little lonely at the 

559
00:29:01,135 --> 00:29:04,046
top, right, at the top. 
I'm not taking myself too 

560
00:29:04,046 --> 00:29:05,945
serious. 
I hope you feel that through my 

561
00:29:05,945 --> 00:29:09,069
voice already. 
But what I discovered was, you 

562
00:29:09,069 --> 00:29:12,059
know, there's actually other 
people that have this job as 

563
00:29:12,059 --> 00:29:13,667
well, why don't I go looking for
them? 

564
00:29:13,787 --> 00:29:16,667
And I formed this group. 
We call it a peer group. 

565
00:29:16,697 --> 00:29:18,377
You could have also called it a 
mastermind. 

566
00:29:18,737 --> 00:29:23,163
And the goal was, let's just 
provide multiple perspectives on

567
00:29:23,163 --> 00:29:26,507
our challenges. 
And that's the context which 

568
00:29:26,507 --> 00:29:30,199
sparked a whole thing of it's 
become a whole community. 

569
00:29:30,569 --> 00:29:34,349
We have like WhatsApp group 
format, we have live meetings 

570
00:29:34,349 --> 00:29:37,799
form, et cetera, et cetera. 
And in that, we discuss real 

571
00:29:37,799 --> 00:29:40,349
challenges and sometimes they're
super practical, right? 

572
00:29:40,349 --> 00:29:45,698
So I literally was like in 
meetings like that where we 

573
00:29:45,698 --> 00:29:48,848
discussed, okay, ransomware 
happened, what actually do we do

574
00:29:48,848 --> 00:29:51,846
now, right? 
So it could be as practical and 

575
00:29:51,846 --> 00:29:54,253
detailed as that. 
It could be knowledge things 

576
00:29:54,253 --> 00:29:57,547
which is basically, hey, what do
you guys pay a senior developer?

577
00:29:57,547 --> 00:30:01,953
Just checking. 
But what I see as the bigger 

578
00:30:01,953 --> 00:30:05,338
challenges, interestingly 
enough, I was expecting the CTO 

579
00:30:05,338 --> 00:30:09,646
group groups to be extremely 
technical, but it's all about 

580
00:30:09,646 --> 00:30:13,180
people. 
And if you were to blindfold me 

581
00:30:13,180 --> 00:30:17,000
and put me in a group or just 
read only the transcript without

582
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:21,659
the names, I would've a hard 
time telling apart a group of 

583
00:30:21,659 --> 00:30:25,166
heads of engineering from a 
group of heads of finance. 

584
00:30:26,096 --> 00:30:28,646
Which is very in, I mean, the 
language will be slightly 

585
00:30:28,646 --> 00:30:31,396
different, but the themes, if 
you just abstract it to the 

586
00:30:31,396 --> 00:30:35,246
themes. 
One of the biggest things is I'm

587
00:30:35,246 --> 00:30:39,445
conflict averse. 
Because before you are a leader,

588
00:30:39,445 --> 00:30:43,783
it's pretty good tactic not to 
get into conflict. 

589
00:30:44,803 --> 00:30:47,813
It's a solid tactic. 
Like if an individual 

590
00:30:47,813 --> 00:30:51,047
contributor asks me like, how 
often should I look for 

591
00:30:51,047 --> 00:30:52,493
conflict? 
I'll be like, no, just do what 

592
00:30:52,493 --> 00:30:54,323
your boss says. 
It's a really good strategy. 

593
00:30:54,863 --> 00:30:57,228
But this is one of these 
transformations we have to go 

594
00:30:57,228 --> 00:30:59,610
through. 
And as a leader, this topic 

595
00:30:59,610 --> 00:31:02,749
comes up often, and I'll give 
you the following on that. 

596
00:31:03,964 --> 00:31:09,804
Often we make a conflict huge in
our mind, and I challenge you to

597
00:31:09,804 --> 00:31:13,558
like peek beyond the door. 
Really ask yourself, what is the

598
00:31:13,558 --> 00:31:16,114
worst that can happen? 
Because oftentimes that's 

599
00:31:16,114 --> 00:31:19,528
already a part of the remedy. 
Maybe that conflict isn't 

600
00:31:19,528 --> 00:31:23,907
actually as hard as you thought.
And if it is something else, 

601
00:31:23,907 --> 00:31:26,364
maybe the conflict you're 
averting is a bad news 

602
00:31:26,384 --> 00:31:31,152
conversation either with a peer 
or somebody in your team, find a

603
00:31:31,152 --> 00:31:32,687
model. 
So I... 

604
00:31:32,687 --> 00:31:36,454
There's a concept called 
modeling, which I call, that's 

605
00:31:36,454 --> 00:31:38,612
like the Stack Overflow of 
Psychology. 

606
00:31:39,062 --> 00:31:42,534
You can find people who are 
great at this and with the 

607
00:31:42,534 --> 00:31:45,610
disclaimer that we just talked 
about, that no model is perfect.

608
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,790
There are models out there. 
And if you're learning, it's 

609
00:31:48,790 --> 00:31:50,380
perfectly okay to just copy a 
model. 

610
00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:52,480
And here's the one for bad news,
by the way. 

611
00:31:53,110 --> 00:31:56,018
Within 10 seconds, bad news out,
If you right? 

612
00:31:56,138 --> 00:32:01,610
If it is just to be very direct,
you ask for a raise, we cannot 

613
00:32:01,610 --> 00:32:06,100
provide it right now, right? 
All the stuff that I do before 

614
00:32:06,100 --> 00:32:08,856
that is actually unfair. 
You're getting red. 

615
00:32:09,026 --> 00:32:12,308
No, just kidding. 
But I would say like, this is 

616
00:32:12,308 --> 00:32:15,996
the part you need to immediately
go with the bad news. 

617
00:32:16,506 --> 00:32:19,756
Hey, we're gonna cut down. 
You are one of the people that's

618
00:32:19,756 --> 00:32:21,276
going to be asked to leave the 
team. 

619
00:32:22,536 --> 00:32:24,636
Because then there's no walking 
around. 

620
00:32:24,636 --> 00:32:29,206
And if you don't do this, if you
just skip around the topic, 

621
00:32:29,206 --> 00:32:31,417
you're gonna get way more 
stressed yourself. 

622
00:32:31,537 --> 00:32:34,165
But the other person, their 
bullshit detectors are already 

623
00:32:34,165 --> 00:32:35,617
bing, bing, bing, bing, bing, 
bing, bing. 

624
00:32:35,617 --> 00:32:38,172
Because people are really great.
You've been maybe in this 

625
00:32:38,172 --> 00:32:40,449
situation yourself where you're 
not like, I know this is not 

626
00:32:40,449 --> 00:32:43,366
what this is about. 
Just get to the real stuff, 

627
00:32:43,366 --> 00:32:45,337
right? 
We know this from our families, 

628
00:32:45,337 --> 00:32:49,885
from our private life, right? 
So my recipe is bad news out 10 

629
00:32:49,885 --> 00:32:53,317
seconds, then separate it from 
the person as much as you can. 

630
00:32:53,797 --> 00:32:57,247
So I would say like we cannot 
give a raise right now. 

631
00:32:57,757 --> 00:33:02,977
Here's reason A, B, and C. 
Then you give, I understand that

632
00:33:02,977 --> 00:33:06,337
this would provide feelings on 
your part, right? 

633
00:33:06,337 --> 00:33:09,715
So make a space for feelings. 
Be like, I can understand this 

634
00:33:09,715 --> 00:33:12,703
is not fun to hear. 
Or whatever the words are that 

635
00:33:12,703 --> 00:33:15,610
you usually use, don't copy me 
exactly, but just say like, I 

636
00:33:15,610 --> 00:33:17,845
understand this is not what you 
wanted to hear. 

637
00:33:17,875 --> 00:33:21,374
This is not fun. 
Maybe if the language you use is

638
00:33:21,374 --> 00:33:26,677
more, this sucks, you say that. 
But just then give some space 

639
00:33:26,677 --> 00:33:31,429
for emotion and then say, I 
understand there might be a need

640
00:33:31,429 --> 00:33:34,615
to discuss this but I suggest we
keep it at this for now. 

641
00:33:34,675 --> 00:33:36,805
So we both get to sleep on it 
for a night first. 

642
00:33:37,525 --> 00:33:40,165
'Cause then you give people the 
space for their emotion, not 

643
00:33:40,165 --> 00:33:42,691
with you per se. 
Otherwise you're gonna end up in

644
00:33:42,691 --> 00:33:45,882
endless discussions and loops. 
So this is the model that I've, 

645
00:33:45,882 --> 00:33:48,841
I've seen most people like, oh, 
it's like I get emails on this 

646
00:33:48,841 --> 00:33:52,013
model, so please, if it works 
for you, it's just keeping it 

647
00:33:52,013 --> 00:33:56,105
really short. 
Because there's, now it's, one, 

648
00:33:56,105 --> 00:33:58,999
it's respectful. 
But two, it's also not as 

649
00:33:58,999 --> 00:34:00,955
personal, right? 
It's not like you suck, right? 

650
00:34:01,255 --> 00:34:04,495
It is just this is the decision,
this is the reasons. 

651
00:34:05,366 --> 00:34:07,316
If you can pull it away from 
that person, right? 

652
00:34:07,316 --> 00:34:10,196
If it's like, you're not getting
a raise because we are not 

653
00:34:10,196 --> 00:34:11,936
making enough profit, say that, 
right? 

654
00:34:11,966 --> 00:34:15,574
You don't need to be like if you
can share that, by the way, of 

655
00:34:15,574 --> 00:34:17,591
course. 
Be confidential with whatever is

656
00:34:17,591 --> 00:34:20,532
confidential. 
With peers however and bosses, 

657
00:34:20,532 --> 00:34:24,065
there's an extra step if you 
wanna have frank conversations. 

658
00:34:24,156 --> 00:34:27,610
Oftentimes it's not this type, 
but it can follow a similar 

659
00:34:27,610 --> 00:34:30,466
format, but it has to be 
proceeded with asking 

660
00:34:30,466 --> 00:34:32,496
permission. 
Same in every culture. 

661
00:34:33,306 --> 00:34:34,896
In my culture, you would get 
away. 

662
00:34:34,926 --> 00:34:37,731
We, like we Dutch are very low 
power distance. 

663
00:34:37,791 --> 00:34:41,201
So we have no issue starting 
this conversation with our boss 

664
00:34:41,201 --> 00:34:45,045
and also our boss expect it. 
But as a global advice, knowing 

665
00:34:45,045 --> 00:34:49,056
that the audience is global. 
There's never anything wrong 

666
00:34:49,056 --> 00:34:52,217
with asking permission. 
Like I would like to discuss 

667
00:34:52,217 --> 00:34:55,440
something, can you make the 
time, is never wrong. 

668
00:34:55,710 --> 00:34:59,080
And if it's not respected and 
you can still ask, would there 

669
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,564
be time later? 
But that's a disclaimer I would 

670
00:35:02,564 --> 00:35:06,146
give for bosses because if you 
go bad news without asking 

671
00:35:06,146 --> 00:35:08,120
permission, I would consider 
that mutiny. 

672
00:35:09,384 --> 00:35:12,590
Yeah. 
Well, I think that speaks true 

673
00:35:12,590 --> 00:35:15,799
to me as well, right? 
The people aspects and the 

674
00:35:15,799 --> 00:35:18,612
conflict management, always kind
of like the top challenges 

675
00:35:18,612 --> 00:35:21,802
especially if you're new to this
leadership management, right? 

676
00:35:21,982 --> 00:35:24,930
Managing people. 
It's always maybe one of the 

677
00:35:24,930 --> 00:35:27,697
first few challenges that feels 
very, very difficult because 

678
00:35:27,697 --> 00:35:30,355
first, unlike learning 
technologies, right, you can 

679
00:35:30,355 --> 00:35:33,412
read so many things on the 
internet or maybe books. 

680
00:35:33,412 --> 00:35:36,352
You can find resources. 
But dealing with these 

681
00:35:36,352 --> 00:35:39,456
situations. 
First, yes, there might be model

682
00:35:39,456 --> 00:35:42,599
out there but it's very 
specifically contextual because 

683
00:35:42,599 --> 00:35:45,364
different people is different. 
Different culture is different, 

684
00:35:45,364 --> 00:35:46,896
communication patterns and all 
that. 

685
00:35:47,166 --> 00:35:49,836
So I find that this is 
definitely one of the biggest 

686
00:35:49,836 --> 00:35:51,066
challenges for leaders out 
there. 

687
00:35:51,276 --> 00:35:54,876
And thanks for giving us the 
tips about how do you do this 

688
00:35:54,876 --> 00:35:58,092
difficult conversations, right? 
Because yeah, again, some of us 

689
00:35:58,092 --> 00:36:00,959
feel stressful if we have to 
convey these difficult 

690
00:36:00,959 --> 00:36:03,927
conversations but for whatever 
reason sometimes we have to 

691
00:36:03,927 --> 00:36:06,412
convey it, right? 
So be it for performance 

692
00:36:06,412 --> 00:36:09,887
improvements, be it for, you 
know, like tough situations in 

693
00:36:09,887 --> 00:36:12,106
the economy, organizations, 
organizations and all that. 

694
00:36:12,496 --> 00:36:15,603
So one thing that I wanna peel a
little bit more further, right? 

695
00:36:15,633 --> 00:36:19,885
Because this is always the first
hurdle for tech leaders before 

696
00:36:19,885 --> 00:36:24,149
they actually want to step up 
and be, you know, an engineering

697
00:36:24,149 --> 00:36:25,701
manager or maybe engineering 
leader. 

698
00:36:26,181 --> 00:36:30,362
So what steps concretely they 
could do in order to kind of 

699
00:36:30,362 --> 00:36:34,590
like be able to navigate this, 
if they wanna try giving it a 

700
00:36:34,590 --> 00:36:36,764
go, you know, taking this step 
forward. 

701
00:36:37,681 --> 00:36:41,895
So you're asking, just to recap,
you're asking if somebody's 

702
00:36:41,895 --> 00:36:43,726
aspiring, how do you make those 
steps? 

703
00:36:44,694 --> 00:36:47,131
Yeah. 
How do you learn these people 

704
00:36:47,131 --> 00:36:49,417
aspect and also conflict 
management, right? 

705
00:36:49,417 --> 00:36:52,567
Because like tech leaders, we 
always work with code. 

706
00:36:52,567 --> 00:36:54,541
We always work with 
specifications and that's about 

707
00:36:54,541 --> 00:36:56,221
it. 
Kind of like less involved in 

708
00:36:56,221 --> 00:37:00,881
those two aspects. 
It's a lot with, what I would 

709
00:37:00,881 --> 00:37:05,162
immediately say is, if you wanna
make a career step, you look for

710
00:37:05,162 --> 00:37:08,996
extra responsibility and you ask
if you can get that. 

711
00:37:09,446 --> 00:37:10,676
So it's again a permission 
thing. 

712
00:37:10,706 --> 00:37:14,666
I'm pretty heavy on permission, 
because I think that is very 

713
00:37:14,666 --> 00:37:18,304
useful. 
And also take the no's as okay, 

714
00:37:18,304 --> 00:37:20,726
but also not as permanent, 
right? 

715
00:37:20,726 --> 00:37:23,710
I meet people who've said like, 
I would like to become an 

716
00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:26,762
engineering leader. 
And then they get a no, and 

717
00:37:26,762 --> 00:37:29,754
maybe they get some reasons, and
then they never ask ever again. 

718
00:37:29,754 --> 00:37:31,214
And I speak to them six years 
later. 

719
00:37:31,604 --> 00:37:36,524
And I would say if there is a 
no, it's almost always valid, 

720
00:37:36,524 --> 00:37:39,452
maybe not the right timing. 
But it's always, always valid to

721
00:37:39,452 --> 00:37:43,694
ask what are the reasons, and 
work on that in a small way. 

722
00:37:44,114 --> 00:37:48,898
And maybe even ask like, can I 
get a little like help in 

723
00:37:48,898 --> 00:37:51,124
growing this? 
Or can I get a little project 

724
00:37:51,124 --> 00:37:55,727
where I can practice this? 
So as long as you do that, you 

725
00:37:55,727 --> 00:37:58,727
can ask again. 
Give it a reasonable time, you 

726
00:37:58,727 --> 00:38:02,279
will feel out what it is. 
But I would go like, it's about 

727
00:38:02,279 --> 00:38:06,848
ownership. 
And the other part is, all the 

728
00:38:06,848 --> 00:38:10,250
people things, it comes down to 
communication. 

729
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,533
And I think that is not 
something you can learn from a 

730
00:38:12,533 --> 00:38:14,146
book. 
It's something you do by 

731
00:38:14,146 --> 00:38:17,214
practicing. 
And one advice that I personally

732
00:38:17,214 --> 00:38:21,689
got recently from somebody that 
was coming in for my podcast, he

733
00:38:21,689 --> 00:38:27,363
said, if I could give people one
action, it was find the person 

734
00:38:27,483 --> 00:38:30,618
that you have the hardest time 
connecting with in your company 

735
00:38:30,618 --> 00:38:35,253
and go for a coffee with the 
intention to learn and listen. 

736
00:38:35,493 --> 00:38:40,053
Not to push anything but that I 
think it's a pretty wise advice.

737
00:38:40,353 --> 00:38:42,933
If that relationship is totally 
broken, of course, right? 

738
00:38:43,263 --> 00:38:46,555
Don't, don't overdo this. 
You can do one little less, 

739
00:38:46,555 --> 00:38:48,774
right? 
But I think going out of your 

740
00:38:48,774 --> 00:38:52,138
bubble is great. 
And I think as an aspiring tech 

741
00:38:52,138 --> 00:38:56,523
leader, the more you go outside 
the bubble of code. 

742
00:38:57,963 --> 00:39:01,668
It will be a very fun stretch 
for you, but it will also 

743
00:39:01,668 --> 00:39:04,323
improve the value because in the
end, you're in a business. 

744
00:39:04,323 --> 00:39:06,723
There is sales, there's 
marketing, and you might 

745
00:39:06,723 --> 00:39:08,673
currently think I dislike all of
that. 

746
00:39:09,363 --> 00:39:13,983
My thing is, I have found that 
most of the times when I dislike

747
00:39:13,983 --> 00:39:16,855
or I'm uninterested in 
something, I don't know enough 

748
00:39:16,855 --> 00:39:20,563
about it. 
So I'll pull a book from my, 

749
00:39:20,563 --> 00:39:27,873
from my bookcase right now. 
I thought molds and mushrooms 

750
00:39:27,873 --> 00:39:31,555
were incredibly boring. 
And then I read a whole book on 

751
00:39:31,555 --> 00:39:34,563
it and it's great. 
It's a fantastic world. 

752
00:39:34,893 --> 00:39:38,468
And I would say like, developers
know this rabbit hole concept, 

753
00:39:38,468 --> 00:39:41,187
right? 
You go down a rabbit hole, 

754
00:39:41,187 --> 00:39:44,683
whether you're a mod for a 
certain game, right? 

755
00:39:44,963 --> 00:39:49,759
Or whether you just went 
extremely deep into this obscure

756
00:39:49,759 --> 00:39:52,037
framework because it was 
somewhere in your old code. 

757
00:39:52,337 --> 00:39:55,004
You probably get more 
appreciation when you dive 

758
00:39:55,004 --> 00:39:57,323
deeper. 
I recommend you do it outside of

759
00:39:57,323 --> 00:40:00,443
tech as well. 
And the first I would recommend 

760
00:40:00,443 --> 00:40:03,287
you start is anything related to
money and profit. 

761
00:40:03,467 --> 00:40:08,540
Because in the end, most 
everyone is working for a 

762
00:40:08,540 --> 00:40:10,562
business. 
There's also people working for 

763
00:40:10,562 --> 00:40:13,127
government that is it works a 
little bit differently. 

764
00:40:14,138 --> 00:40:16,718
But that's the fuel of that 
vehicle, right? 

765
00:40:16,718 --> 00:40:21,848
So yes, you are the one building
the vehicle, but realize that 

766
00:40:21,908 --> 00:40:23,498
that's the synergy between the 
two. 

767
00:40:23,498 --> 00:40:27,606
If the fuel runs out, you could 
have built the best thing ever, 

768
00:40:27,606 --> 00:40:32,872
it's still a problem. 
Or a no bueno is a good summary.

769
00:40:33,947 --> 00:40:36,333
Right. 
So yeah I think learning outside

770
00:40:36,333 --> 00:40:38,377
of tech is definitely very 
important, right? 

771
00:40:38,377 --> 00:40:41,083
And communication. 
So I think when you step up as a

772
00:40:41,083 --> 00:40:43,078
leader, as a manager, right? 
You need to communicate. 

773
00:40:43,078 --> 00:40:46,618
You cannot just, you know, maybe
chat only through, you know, 

774
00:40:46,618 --> 00:40:48,748
Slack or something like that. 
You need to communicate. 

775
00:40:49,018 --> 00:40:52,369
You need to somehow make a sense
of the situation maybe from 

776
00:40:52,369 --> 00:40:54,878
people's behavior, habit, 
communication patterns. 

777
00:40:55,198 --> 00:40:57,268
So all this you need to learn, 
right? 

778
00:40:57,268 --> 00:41:00,158
You need to maybe pick up a book
or go into peer group, 

779
00:41:00,798 --> 00:41:02,198
mastermind, those kind of 
things. 

780
00:41:02,308 --> 00:41:05,098
And always pique curiosity. 
I think like, um, just to have 

781
00:41:05,098 --> 00:41:07,577
interest in this kind of 
subject, in this kind of a 

782
00:41:07,577 --> 00:41:11,332
knowledge, so that you can get 
equipped once you step up on the

783
00:41:11,332 --> 00:41:14,291
role, right? 
One other challenge that I find 

784
00:41:14,291 --> 00:41:18,214
most of the tech leaders because
we come from like a very deep 

785
00:41:18,214 --> 00:41:21,033
hands-on, right? 
We sometimes can be a very good 

786
00:41:21,033 --> 00:41:23,531
IC. 
But obviously stepping up as a 

787
00:41:23,531 --> 00:41:27,469
leader as a manager, we need to 
let other people be in the 

788
00:41:27,469 --> 00:41:30,100
limelight, so to speak, right? 
And this is also another 

789
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:32,515
challenge that I feel many 
people cannot let go. 

790
00:41:32,695 --> 00:41:36,730
They still feel itchy to, I 
dunno, do the hands-on coding or

791
00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:40,192
be the person to decide on 
anything very important like 

792
00:41:40,192 --> 00:41:42,304
architecture, system design, and
all that. 

793
00:41:42,424 --> 00:41:47,202
So how do you advise people to 
start, you know, taking off this

794
00:41:47,202 --> 00:41:51,211
mindset? 
I have a story because I take 

795
00:41:51,211 --> 00:41:53,101
personally a lot of inspiration 
from nature. 

796
00:41:53,929 --> 00:41:55,549
First disclaimer about the 
story. 

797
00:41:56,299 --> 00:41:59,279
If you want to get great at 
communication, people are always

798
00:41:59,279 --> 00:42:03,099
like, Martijn, you have so many 
stories and you have, you are 

799
00:42:03,099 --> 00:42:06,793
quite advanced in your use of 
language and, and levels of 

800
00:42:06,793 --> 00:42:10,887
abstraction that I get from 
reading fiction, actually, not 

801
00:42:10,887 --> 00:42:13,034
necessarily. 
So people often focus, I see a 

802
00:42:13,034 --> 00:42:15,469
lot of people start focusing on 
the businesses sides, right? 

803
00:42:15,469 --> 00:42:19,208
And I love those, like I have a 
bookcase full, but the 

804
00:42:19,208 --> 00:42:21,803
storytelling, which is really 
relevant because somehow, I'll 

805
00:42:21,803 --> 00:42:27,115
give you this as well. 
In most businesses and most 

806
00:42:27,115 --> 00:42:31,887
professional relationships, 
logic is overused and emotion is

807
00:42:31,887 --> 00:42:36,475
underused. 
And the thing is, I haven't seen

808
00:42:36,475 --> 00:42:38,485
logic change many people's 
minds. 

809
00:42:39,865 --> 00:42:44,527
So that's why with the, with 
the, how do you let go? 

810
00:42:44,677 --> 00:42:47,977
I will then answer with a story.
And it's the story of the 

811
00:42:47,977 --> 00:42:51,151
vanilla orchid. 
A vanilla orchid starts as a 

812
00:42:51,151 --> 00:42:55,464
seed and it falls very deeply, 
pop onto the ground of the 

813
00:42:55,464 --> 00:42:57,909
jungle. 
There it sprouts. 

814
00:42:58,209 --> 00:43:01,653
It's a viney plant, and it uses 
its ground roots actually to 

815
00:43:01,653 --> 00:43:03,309
crawl a little bit. 
It's really cool. 

816
00:43:03,309 --> 00:43:06,489
It finds a young jungle tree and
it crawls up into the jungle 

817
00:43:06,489 --> 00:43:09,998
tree and it like hitches a ride.
And it stretches and stretches 

818
00:43:09,998 --> 00:43:13,183
and stretch and it keeps its 
roots that were so important in 

819
00:43:13,183 --> 00:43:16,653
the soil. 
But at one point, it runs into a

820
00:43:16,653 --> 00:43:19,519
little thing called the scaling 
problem, or actually physics, 

821
00:43:19,519 --> 00:43:24,185
because since it is a leafy 
plant, it doesn't have the 

822
00:43:24,185 --> 00:43:26,379
physics to actually push up 
water high enough. 

823
00:43:26,821 --> 00:43:30,623
And the canopy of the leaves of 
the jungle are sometimes 30 

824
00:43:30,623 --> 00:43:32,309
meters, sometimes even 60 meters
high. 

825
00:43:32,309 --> 00:43:34,659
I can't believe it, but that's 
the real number. 

826
00:43:35,859 --> 00:43:39,420
So the orchid has a problem and 
it solves it in the most elegant

827
00:43:39,420 --> 00:43:43,104
way you can imagine. 
It drops its ground roots. 

828
00:43:44,214 --> 00:43:48,882
It lets go. 
And then it forms new aerial 

829
00:43:48,882 --> 00:43:53,604
roots. 
And to me that is the perfect 

830
00:43:53,604 --> 00:43:57,834
descriptor of, in order to grow 
you need to let things go. 

831
00:43:58,868 --> 00:44:01,481
And I know there was also 
something you might have been 

832
00:44:01,481 --> 00:44:03,128
fishing for, which I'll also 
give you. 

833
00:44:03,657 --> 00:44:06,788
I had a founder CTO who was 
struggling with this very much. 

834
00:44:07,224 --> 00:44:09,114
It was his baby, right? 
This was a founder. 

835
00:44:09,174 --> 00:44:11,394
He was deep into this code. 
It was all his. 

836
00:44:12,091 --> 00:44:14,124
And at one point, he just saw, 
I'm the bottleneck. 

837
00:44:14,724 --> 00:44:17,034
I'm the bottleneck. 
And know that if you're not 

838
00:44:17,034 --> 00:44:19,284
gonna let things go, you are 
gonna become the bottleneck. 

839
00:44:19,674 --> 00:44:23,782
So his quote was also amazing. 
And that was, if only I can do 

840
00:44:23,782 --> 00:44:27,938
it, I should not do it. 
Pair program, yes, right? 

841
00:44:28,318 --> 00:44:31,466
Teach, yes. 
But you cannot be the sole 

842
00:44:31,466 --> 00:44:33,468
owner. 
Some people use that as a 

843
00:44:33,468 --> 00:44:35,543
tactic, right? 
I've seen developers or maybe 

844
00:44:35,543 --> 00:44:38,703
then they come into architects 
like, haha, I'm the only one who

845
00:44:38,703 --> 00:44:40,818
knows this old code, so they can
never let go of me. 

846
00:44:41,328 --> 00:44:43,774
But that will make you sour. 
I will tell you that. 

847
00:44:44,434 --> 00:44:48,004
I think a lot of businesses and 
companies, talk about value. 

848
00:44:48,004 --> 00:44:50,794
And I think it's interesting how
we never talk about virtue. 

849
00:44:51,484 --> 00:44:56,412
And I think for yourself the 
virtue is what gives you... 

850
00:44:56,412 --> 00:45:00,652
Like I have not seen a developer
that used that strategy to 

851
00:45:00,652 --> 00:45:03,034
become unmissable that didn't 
turn sour in the end. 

852
00:45:04,384 --> 00:45:07,097
It's very interesting. 
Wow. 

853
00:45:07,457 --> 00:45:12,003
Thank you for sharing such a 
very unique science, knowledge, 

854
00:45:12,003 --> 00:45:13,891
right? 
I didn't know about the vanilla 

855
00:45:13,891 --> 00:45:15,064
orchid, definitely. 
It's cool, right? 

856
00:45:15,124 --> 00:45:15,937
Yeah. 
Yeah. 

857
00:45:16,467 --> 00:45:19,727
But I think it's kind of like 
very insightful because for it 

858
00:45:19,727 --> 00:45:21,167
to grow to the next level, 
right? 

859
00:45:21,167 --> 00:45:24,287
You need to let go the one of 
the most important thing for 

860
00:45:24,287 --> 00:45:27,067
itself, right, which is the 
root, how it grew in the first 

861
00:45:27,067 --> 00:45:29,507
place, right? 
So I think I feel this is the 

862
00:45:29,507 --> 00:45:30,977
same thing for leaders out 
there, right? 

863
00:45:30,977 --> 00:45:35,356
You cannot just be good in being
an IC, writing the code. 

864
00:45:36,076 --> 00:45:38,907
But you have to grow in some 
other aspects that, you know, 

865
00:45:38,907 --> 00:45:41,087
where you can grow your roots as
well, right? 

866
00:45:41,327 --> 00:45:45,755
So I think that's a very good, I
dunno, analogy from science so I

867
00:45:45,755 --> 00:45:47,105
think that's, thanks for sharing
that. 

868
00:45:47,195 --> 00:45:51,499
And about that story of the CTO 
I think that phrasing is kind of

869
00:45:51,499 --> 00:45:53,389
like uh important as well I 
find. 

870
00:45:53,629 --> 00:45:55,909
So if only I can do it, I should
not do it. 

871
00:45:55,909 --> 00:45:58,363
I really love that. 
And I think for leaders out 

872
00:45:58,363 --> 00:46:01,405
there who feels that you have 
too much to do, you are the 

873
00:46:01,405 --> 00:46:04,023
bottleneck, you have too many 
too much knowledge in your head,

874
00:46:04,023 --> 00:46:07,155
I think this phrase can be kind 
of like a mantra for you to 

875
00:46:07,155 --> 00:46:10,107
decide whether you should be the
one doing it or it's time for 

876
00:46:10,107 --> 00:46:11,939
you to let go and teach other 
people. 

877
00:46:13,037 --> 00:46:16,769
And there your brain might 
immediately go, nobody will be 

878
00:46:16,769 --> 00:46:21,150
quicker if I just do it. 
If you ever catch yourself 

879
00:46:21,150 --> 00:46:23,242
thinking that, no, it's always a
lie. 

880
00:46:24,022 --> 00:46:25,972
Because again that's the 
short-term brain. 

881
00:46:26,542 --> 00:46:29,174
Circling all the way back, 
right, the short-term brain 

882
00:46:29,174 --> 00:46:32,011
says, no, but I'll just, I know 
how these permissions work. 

883
00:46:32,011 --> 00:46:33,961
Let me just quickly, right? 
No, no. 

884
00:46:34,741 --> 00:46:38,461
It's the long-term solution and 
if that takes a little bit more 

885
00:46:38,461 --> 00:46:41,429
time now, it's a huge yield. 
Yeah. 

886
00:46:42,079 --> 00:46:44,751
And also kind of like avoiding 
pain of having to teach 

887
00:46:44,751 --> 00:46:47,854
somebody, you know, from, you 
know, spending the time and all 

888
00:46:47,854 --> 00:46:50,627
that. 
So I think again like these two 

889
00:46:50,627 --> 00:46:53,684
psychological thing can be used 
in so many different scenarios I

890
00:46:53,684 --> 00:46:55,231
feel. 
Fantastic. 

891
00:46:55,309 --> 00:46:58,585
One other aspect that I feel 
tech leaders, engineering 

892
00:46:58,585 --> 00:47:02,330
leaders kind of like have a 
challenge is actually to put 

893
00:47:02,330 --> 00:47:03,988
their product thinking mindset, 
right? 

894
00:47:03,988 --> 00:47:07,024
Because they are all into the 
tech, they're all into the geeky

895
00:47:07,024 --> 00:47:09,968
aspect of you know building the 
code, building the systems, 

896
00:47:09,968 --> 00:47:13,015
deploying it, how fantastic the,
you know, the tech stack and all

897
00:47:13,015 --> 00:47:14,938
that. 
But actually the product 

898
00:47:14,938 --> 00:47:17,953
thinking mindset is actually 
equally important if not more 

899
00:47:17,953 --> 00:47:21,365
important these days because I 
can see so many people already 

900
00:47:21,365 --> 00:47:25,686
start thinking about CPTO, CTPO.
You know, not just having T, 

901
00:47:25,686 --> 00:47:27,978
technology itself. 
But actually having the product 

902
00:47:27,978 --> 00:47:30,426
together as well. 
So tell us about this challenge.

903
00:47:30,456 --> 00:47:32,930
What do you see in your peer 
group and how can someone 

904
00:47:32,930 --> 00:47:36,618
improve? 
So everyone will recognize, but 

905
00:47:36,618 --> 00:47:39,268
the requirements weren't clear 
enough, right? 

906
00:47:40,708 --> 00:47:45,595
That to me is like a red flag. 
Like not even yellow, red, 

907
00:47:45,595 --> 00:47:48,448
because that means that you are 
focusing on features. 

908
00:47:48,748 --> 00:47:51,914
And in product, we talk about 
this thing called a feature 

909
00:47:51,914 --> 00:47:55,096
factory. 
What I think is the moment that 

910
00:47:55,096 --> 00:47:58,172
you are focusing on 
requirements, you have a big 

911
00:47:58,172 --> 00:48:00,771
problem. 
Because it doesn't matter how 

912
00:48:00,771 --> 00:48:05,576
fantastic your, what shall we 
call it, PBI or it was product 

913
00:48:05,576 --> 00:48:09,131
backlog item or feature or what 
is it called? 

914
00:48:09,131 --> 00:48:12,881
In the other ticket or whatever 
you system you use. 

915
00:48:14,381 --> 00:48:17,093
It will always be a 
representation of something 

916
00:48:17,093 --> 00:48:18,863
bigger. 
Like let's talk about 

917
00:48:18,863 --> 00:48:22,322
documentation for a second. 
Documentation is like a holiday 

918
00:48:22,322 --> 00:48:27,600
picture of someone else. 
So let's say I now pull up my 

919
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:31,376
photos app and show Henry a 
random holiday picture and just 

920
00:48:31,376 --> 00:48:35,384
say like, now go have fun in 
Valencia and do exactly that. 

921
00:48:36,134 --> 00:48:38,864
He'll be like, what? 
I don't understand. 

922
00:48:39,704 --> 00:48:43,934
But the documentation is not 
there to show you everything. 

923
00:48:44,144 --> 00:48:47,280
I understand that you feel, no, 
but I need to produce as much as

924
00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:49,274
possible, so I'll focus on what 
is given to me. 

925
00:48:49,484 --> 00:48:53,917
If you wanna be excellent, you 
figure out what this holiday 

926
00:48:53,917 --> 00:48:57,112
picture is about. 
So the product mindset that you 

927
00:48:57,112 --> 00:49:02,367
can also have as a tech person, 
even an IC, is to understand 

928
00:49:02,367 --> 00:49:04,814
why. 
Why are we doing this? 

929
00:49:04,964 --> 00:49:09,980
Because it is also you that is 
able to innovate better than 

930
00:49:09,980 --> 00:49:12,614
anyone else because you are so 
close to the tech. 

931
00:49:12,704 --> 00:49:15,464
It is your downfall if you focus
only on that. 

932
00:49:16,034 --> 00:49:18,824
It is your biggest gift if you 
leverage it. 

933
00:49:19,321 --> 00:49:20,971
I've heard a story which is 
beautiful. 

934
00:49:21,591 --> 00:49:24,346
Here in the Netherlands, we have
a marketplace for second-hand 

935
00:49:24,346 --> 00:49:26,026
stuff. 
Let's call it the Dutch 

936
00:49:26,026 --> 00:49:28,671
Craigslist, because most people 
from pop culture are familiar 

937
00:49:28,671 --> 00:49:32,753
with Craigslist. 
There was a head of product 

938
00:49:32,753 --> 00:49:37,196
working there. 
And he actually took the time to

939
00:49:37,196 --> 00:49:40,086
investigate what is the real 
problem we're solving here. 

940
00:49:40,266 --> 00:49:43,485
Because if you're listening to 
users, they'll say, your filters

941
00:49:43,485 --> 00:49:45,840
suck. 
And before you know it, you have

942
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:47,556
20,000 tickets on better 
filters, right? 

943
00:49:48,008 --> 00:49:50,466
But he was talking to users 
really smart, by the way. 

944
00:49:50,586 --> 00:49:53,480
And he figured out. 
He said, no, the actual thing is

945
00:49:53,480 --> 00:49:56,811
I have a thing in my hand and I 
want to sell it. 

946
00:49:57,681 --> 00:50:01,448
And he made this vision type, 
like an animated thing of a 

947
00:50:01,448 --> 00:50:04,286
concept. 
This was way before like any AI,

948
00:50:04,286 --> 00:50:06,043
et cetera. 
Like computer vision was just 

949
00:50:06,043 --> 00:50:08,978
starting to be a thing. 
And he made this concept 

950
00:50:08,978 --> 00:50:13,332
animation of what if a customer 
could just point their phone and

951
00:50:13,332 --> 00:50:17,858
would immediately recognize it. 
And then that would be listed 

952
00:50:17,858 --> 00:50:20,793
automatically taking away all 
the pain for the customer to 

953
00:50:20,793 --> 00:50:23,776
have to type and find the right 
category and blah, blah, blah, 

954
00:50:23,776 --> 00:50:26,016
blah, blah. 
All the requirement and clear 

955
00:50:26,016 --> 00:50:29,236
stuff. 
When they showed that to the 

956
00:50:29,236 --> 00:50:33,226
devs, the devs got it. 
And one of them over the weekend

957
00:50:33,226 --> 00:50:36,561
with a new computer vision tool 
said something like this. 

958
00:50:36,621 --> 00:50:40,851
And there was a pretty solid 
recognition thing just running. 

959
00:50:40,911 --> 00:50:44,409
Because no one in the rest of 
the company knew this was 

960
00:50:44,409 --> 00:50:46,671
technically possible. 
You might know. 

961
00:50:46,881 --> 00:50:48,911
So I challenge you if you really
want to.... 

962
00:50:48,911 --> 00:50:51,111
Also, and this is super 
enjoyable, right? 

963
00:50:51,111 --> 00:50:54,471
Because you're then not no 
longer a ticket producer, right?

964
00:50:54,741 --> 00:50:58,651
But you're becoming a value 
adder and I think that's, it's 

965
00:50:58,651 --> 00:51:01,988
incredibly cool. 
So I would also ask it more 

966
00:51:01,988 --> 00:51:05,105
importantly, of course, the 
details are important and 

967
00:51:05,105 --> 00:51:08,548
specifications are relevant. 
But I think if we go all the way

968
00:51:08,548 --> 00:51:11,900
back to the concept of the Agile
Manifesto, by the way, if you're

969
00:51:11,900 --> 00:51:15,574
doing Scrum but you haven't 
visited the website of the Agile

970
00:51:15,574 --> 00:51:18,414
Manifesto, I'm surprised how 
often I find that. 

971
00:51:18,414 --> 00:51:23,608
Just go to agilemanifesto.org. 
It says working solutions over 

972
00:51:23,608 --> 00:51:26,294
comprehensive documentation. 
That part. 

973
00:51:26,759 --> 00:51:29,519
If you wanna do that, well, you 
need to broaden your view. 

974
00:51:29,919 --> 00:51:32,199
So I think that's the product 
part. 

975
00:51:32,549 --> 00:51:35,666
Of course, there's a product 
owner, manager, et cetera, that 

976
00:51:35,666 --> 00:51:38,879
can help you. 
But I would highly recommend if 

977
00:51:38,879 --> 00:51:41,279
you can include that in your 
technical skills. 

978
00:51:41,669 --> 00:51:44,983
It will be, one, more fun even 
if as an IC. 

979
00:51:45,163 --> 00:51:47,721
But it will be incredibly 
helpful in your career, even if 

980
00:51:47,721 --> 00:51:49,093
it's not gonna be your job, 
right? 

981
00:51:49,093 --> 00:51:51,868
You still have a product owner 
or manager that talks to 

982
00:51:51,868 --> 00:51:53,230
customers and comes up with the 
list. 

983
00:51:53,620 --> 00:51:56,128
Maybe at one point you say like,
hey, when you decide that this 

984
00:51:56,128 --> 00:51:59,357
is going on the roadmap, can I 
join with one of these calls to 

985
00:51:59,357 --> 00:52:02,428
customers? 
It will be unexpected, but you 

986
00:52:02,428 --> 00:52:05,446
will learn so much because you 
know what is technically 

987
00:52:05,446 --> 00:52:08,805
possible. 
So the product part in tech 

988
00:52:08,805 --> 00:52:11,715
leaders, that's like, one, 
incredibly fun. 

989
00:52:11,745 --> 00:52:15,371
But two, that's where that's 
like where your company really 

990
00:52:15,371 --> 00:52:18,155
goes crazy. 
And it's interesting, by the 

991
00:52:18,155 --> 00:52:20,235
way, how I map this to the, that
Agile, right? 

992
00:52:21,972 --> 00:52:24,238
Yeah. 
So I find every engineers out 

993
00:52:24,238 --> 00:52:26,428
there, right? 
You need to have this product 

994
00:52:26,428 --> 00:52:28,566
mindset right Some people 
actually already calling these 

995
00:52:28,566 --> 00:52:31,432
role product engineers, right? 
And especially with the, you 

996
00:52:31,432 --> 00:52:33,312
know, the advancement of AI, 
right? 

997
00:52:33,402 --> 00:52:37,142
Writing code might not be the 
pure bottleneck anymore, right? 

998
00:52:37,142 --> 00:52:40,082
So it's more about, you know, 
solving the problems. 

999
00:52:41,355 --> 00:52:42,795
It was never the bottleneck. 
Okay. 

1000
00:52:42,832 --> 00:52:44,702
Yeah. 
Understanding the why, and also 

1001
00:52:44,702 --> 00:52:46,582
so many other different aspects,
right? 

1002
00:52:46,582 --> 00:52:49,353
And I think the interest of the 
domain is also something that 

1003
00:52:49,353 --> 00:52:51,763
you need to pick up, right? 
Because you could just think 

1004
00:52:51,763 --> 00:52:54,903
that awaiting for requirements 
is one thing that you do. 

1005
00:52:54,903 --> 00:52:57,791
But I think understanding the 
domain could actually pick a lot

1006
00:52:57,791 --> 00:53:00,457
of, I don't know, new invention,
new innovation. 

1007
00:53:00,537 --> 00:53:02,507
I spoke with Marty Cagan a long 
time ago. 

1008
00:53:02,507 --> 00:53:05,027
He's saying that if your 
developers are just producing 

1009
00:53:05,027 --> 00:53:07,557
code, I think you kind of like 
under utilize them. 

1010
00:53:08,087 --> 00:53:11,560
So I think, yeah, because 
engineers know the different 

1011
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,772
possibilities of what technology
can offer to do things. 

1012
00:53:15,183 --> 00:53:17,253
So I think this is very 
important sharing for you. 

1013
00:53:17,651 --> 00:53:20,683
Speaking about AI, right. 
So I think it might be a miss If

1014
00:53:20,683 --> 00:53:22,823
we don't talk about AI in an 
episode these days. 

1015
00:53:23,123 --> 00:53:27,310
So I saw one of your recent 
LinkedIn posts about AI which I 

1016
00:53:27,310 --> 00:53:29,964
find very interesting that we 
can discuss, right? 

1017
00:53:29,964 --> 00:53:33,474
You're saying that the direction
we are going with AI is actually

1018
00:53:33,474 --> 00:53:37,436
going to the wrong direction. 
So tell us what's your, what's 

1019
00:53:37,436 --> 00:53:42,484
leading you to this opinion? 
So I think where we are right 

1020
00:53:42,484 --> 00:53:45,216
now, if we zoom out all the way,
right? 

1021
00:53:46,326 --> 00:53:50,622
We are gonna look at this time 
of the time before digital 

1022
00:53:50,622 --> 00:53:52,956
hygiene, right? 
Physical hygiene, we have done. 

1023
00:53:53,166 --> 00:53:56,896
Almost everyone in the world 
knows you separate poop water 

1024
00:53:56,896 --> 00:54:01,064
from drinking water, you wash 
your hands, you take showers. 

1025
00:54:01,449 --> 00:54:05,677
Like basic hygiene, even though 
we're still teaching some like 

1026
00:54:05,677 --> 00:54:07,839
minor groups, it's doing pretty 
well. 

1027
00:54:08,469 --> 00:54:13,013
Digital hygiene and including 
with that mental and AI hygiene 

1028
00:54:13,013 --> 00:54:17,742
is a big topic. 
And I think one of the problems 

1029
00:54:17,742 --> 00:54:20,409
is we can learn from history, 
right? 

1030
00:54:20,589 --> 00:54:24,407
Because at the time of 
industrialism, we had the 

1031
00:54:24,407 --> 00:54:27,779
entrepreneurs were going crazy, 
this is gonna change the world. 

1032
00:54:27,809 --> 00:54:31,517
Hey, wait, that's Sam Altman. 
This is gonna revolutionize, we 

1033
00:54:31,517 --> 00:54:34,919
never have to do these menial 
tasks anymore. 

1034
00:54:34,919 --> 00:54:38,874
Hey, that's Elon, right? 
So I think there's parallels 

1035
00:54:38,874 --> 00:54:43,186
because these were great 
inventions, and I wouldn't say 

1036
00:54:43,186 --> 00:54:46,657
it would be better if we didn't 
have them, but they were 

1037
00:54:46,657 --> 00:54:48,656
absolutely polluting the river 
at the same time. 

1038
00:54:49,573 --> 00:54:52,093
The river at this moment is our 
mind, I believe. 

1039
00:54:52,541 --> 00:54:56,735
Currently one of the things that
I'm seriously worried about is I

1040
00:54:56,735 --> 00:54:59,442
watched the video that I linked 
on that post, so you can find it

1041
00:54:59,442 --> 00:55:01,685
on my LinkedIn by the Healthy 
Gamer. 

1042
00:55:01,745 --> 00:55:04,115
I'm very interested in 
psychology. 

1043
00:55:04,235 --> 00:55:07,165
I'm nerdy, so of course I'll 
land at the Healthy Gamer. 

1044
00:55:07,770 --> 00:55:13,688
He cites the first research that
has now found that use of AI can

1045
00:55:13,688 --> 00:55:17,050
actually induce psychosis in 
healthy adults. 

1046
00:55:17,770 --> 00:55:21,564
That means not in people that 
are already have a tendency for 

1047
00:55:21,564 --> 00:55:23,815
it. 
Because we know for some 

1048
00:55:23,815 --> 00:55:27,610
substances, for example, there 
are some drugs and even certain 

1049
00:55:27,610 --> 00:55:31,236
qualities of alcohol that can 
induce psychosis in people who 

1050
00:55:31,236 --> 00:55:34,706
have a tendency for it. 
But this can induce it in 

1051
00:55:34,706 --> 00:55:37,790
healthy adults. 
Well, if that isn't polluting 

1052
00:55:37,790 --> 00:55:41,810
the river, right, do we want to 
risk this happening without any 

1053
00:55:41,810 --> 00:55:45,880
guardrails for our teams? 
So I don't say don't use it. 

1054
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:47,770
I say we need kind of 
guardrails. 

1055
00:55:48,194 --> 00:55:50,410
I called it for now the AI 
Manifesto. 

1056
00:55:50,410 --> 00:55:53,567
I'll spend the first attempt on 
my next conference in March on 

1057
00:55:53,567 --> 00:55:56,039
this. 
I'll publish it as well by that 

1058
00:55:56,039 --> 00:55:58,060
time. 
But maybe it's not a manifesto. 

1059
00:55:58,060 --> 00:56:00,580
I think it it's gonna be more 
like hygiene. 

1060
00:56:01,073 --> 00:56:04,697
There are certain tasks that 
it's and by the way, it's so 

1061
00:56:04,697 --> 00:56:09,541
easy to say the word AI, but I 
really want to really make clear

1062
00:56:09,541 --> 00:56:13,371
that let's talk about LLMs right
now because this was about LLMs.

1063
00:56:14,331 --> 00:56:17,211
Large Language Models have some 
structural problems. 

1064
00:56:17,541 --> 00:56:21,651
There is quite some discussion 
between the experts on whether 

1065
00:56:21,651 --> 00:56:25,041
throwing more capacity at it 
will get rid of hallucinations. 

1066
00:56:25,517 --> 00:56:28,408
The problem with hallucinations,
I need to just differentiate 

1067
00:56:28,408 --> 00:56:32,101
between a human hallucination 
and a LLM hallucination. 

1068
00:56:33,556 --> 00:56:37,444
Silicon Valley has very well 
branded the word hallucination, 

1069
00:56:37,444 --> 00:56:39,736
but it's basically screw ups, 
right? 

1070
00:56:40,486 --> 00:56:43,600
That the AI just has what it 
does, anyone that dove into 

1071
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:46,665
this, I'm gonna oversimplify. 
Again, it's a model so it won't 

1072
00:56:46,665 --> 00:56:49,030
be perfect, but it's just 
guessing the next word, right? 

1073
00:56:49,030 --> 00:56:52,515
That's what it does. 
It opens a very interesting 

1074
00:56:52,515 --> 00:56:55,423
philosophical discussion if we 
also do that as humans, by the 

1075
00:56:55,423 --> 00:56:58,020
way. 
But let's park that for a 

1076
00:56:58,020 --> 00:57:01,758
second. 
If the AI is doing guessing 

1077
00:57:01,758 --> 00:57:06,211
words and it can spiral off, 
that's pretty problematic on its

1078
00:57:06,211 --> 00:57:09,184
own. 
But what we've seen now since it

1079
00:57:09,184 --> 00:57:12,853
has been trained for you to stay
on, just like YouTube algorithms

1080
00:57:12,853 --> 00:57:16,629
were trained to have you stay 
on, had nothing to do - that was

1081
00:57:16,629 --> 00:57:18,685
a recommender model, had nothing
to do with an LLM. 

1082
00:57:19,075 --> 00:57:22,585
Recommender models have now 
gotten us hooked on those 

1083
00:57:22,585 --> 00:57:25,112
things. 
By the way, also, a great book 

1084
00:57:25,112 --> 00:57:29,122
on that is Hooked by Nir Eyal. 
But what it does is it simply 

1085
00:57:29,122 --> 00:57:31,155
hacks your brain to stay on 
longer. 

1086
00:57:32,123 --> 00:57:36,522
The big problem with this is if 
you keep a human hooked in a 

1087
00:57:36,522 --> 00:57:38,936
text conversation, we feel 
bonded with it. 

1088
00:57:39,476 --> 00:57:42,490
So whatever it suggests, we will
take into account because at one

1089
00:57:42,490 --> 00:57:44,552
point it gets a certain status 
in our mind. 

1090
00:57:44,661 --> 00:57:48,111
We don't feel per se that that 
is a machine. 

1091
00:57:48,951 --> 00:57:51,542
Some of us, that was very early 
on, there was a developer that 

1092
00:57:51,542 --> 00:57:52,881
said like, no, it's conscious, 
right? 

1093
00:57:52,881 --> 00:57:55,401
It was like very, very early on.
But that's an experience. 

1094
00:57:55,406 --> 00:57:58,677
And, and I mean, I talk to 
ChatGPT or Gemini. 

1095
00:57:59,187 --> 00:58:02,928
I've experienced this. 
But the problem with a human 

1096
00:58:02,928 --> 00:58:06,167
hallucination, we call that when
somebody loses touch with 

1097
00:58:06,167 --> 00:58:08,723
reality and it starts hurting 
their environment. 

1098
00:58:09,413 --> 00:58:12,081
Now the problem is if you're 
being fed something that is 

1099
00:58:12,081 --> 00:58:15,293
incorrect and then you have a 
reinforcement cycle, which is 

1100
00:58:15,293 --> 00:58:18,113
actually what is happening, that
is pretty dangerous. 

1101
00:58:18,953 --> 00:58:23,738
And I think we are adopting the 
technology without too many 

1102
00:58:23,738 --> 00:58:26,278
guardrails. 
I'm not saying we shouldn't 

1103
00:58:26,278 --> 00:58:28,455
adopt it. 
I think it's great for certain 

1104
00:58:28,455 --> 00:58:30,063
tasks. 
And then again, I'm talking 

1105
00:58:30,063 --> 00:58:33,617
about LLMs. Recommender models I
think have made our lives 

1106
00:58:33,617 --> 00:58:36,658
already better. 
Astronomy without AI couldn't 

1107
00:58:36,658 --> 00:58:40,166
have learned all the crazy cool 
things about the universe that 

1108
00:58:40,166 --> 00:58:42,879
we know. 
So there is no world where we 

1109
00:58:42,879 --> 00:58:46,583
will have no AI, I'm just a 
little worried about the LLM 

1110
00:58:46,583 --> 00:58:50,636
part and I'm worried about will 
we have guardrails in time. 

1111
00:58:51,206 --> 00:58:54,472
On the other hand, this is gonna
sound really cynical, I hope 

1112
00:58:54,472 --> 00:58:57,357
it's not. 
It might cost us a generation to

1113
00:58:57,357 --> 00:59:00,078
figure that out, but we, I also 
trust that we always figure it 

1114
00:59:00,078 --> 00:59:02,477
out. 
I like the term that you 

1115
00:59:02,477 --> 00:59:03,389
mentioned digital hygiene, 
right? 

1116
00:59:03,389 --> 00:59:07,487
Because, you know, I kind of 
like associate this with the 

1117
00:59:07,487 --> 00:59:09,179
problem of social media back 
then, right? 

1118
00:59:09,179 --> 00:59:12,299
So when we started to have like 
social, media, you know, 

1119
00:59:12,299 --> 00:59:15,659
Facebook and all that, right? 
We also have this challenge, 

1120
00:59:15,659 --> 00:59:17,774
right? 
We have the mental health 

1121
00:59:17,774 --> 00:59:19,199
problem, right, always 
comparing. 

1122
00:59:19,439 --> 00:59:22,033
And also kind of like the 
algorithms feeding out into, 

1123
00:59:22,033 --> 00:59:24,849
feeding us into just one 
perspective or one aspect, 

1124
00:59:24,849 --> 00:59:25,424
right? 
Yes. 

1125
00:59:25,756 --> 00:59:28,748
So not knowing that actually it 
is maybe not true, fake news, 

1126
00:59:28,748 --> 00:59:31,903
and, all that. 
And now we seem to have a 

1127
00:59:31,903 --> 00:59:33,965
different new challenge with AI,
right? 

1128
00:59:34,355 --> 00:59:37,573
And something that is different 
to me is about the natural 

1129
00:59:37,573 --> 00:59:40,175
language conversational aspects 
with AI, right? 

1130
00:59:40,415 --> 00:59:43,323
Which I found your article as 
well that you pointed it out, 

1131
00:59:43,323 --> 00:59:45,616
right? 
So it can induce some kind of 

1132
00:59:45,616 --> 00:59:48,549
psychosis to people, right, and 
thinking that everything that AI

1133
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:51,495
talks might be true, right? 
And building a relationship, 

1134
00:59:51,495 --> 00:59:54,475
bonding with them. 
And sometimes, right, because AI

1135
00:59:54,475 --> 00:59:58,663
is very obedient to us, I think 
this kind of like creates a very

1136
00:59:58,663 --> 01:00:01,372
complex kind of mindset 
psychology in your mind, right? 

1137
01:00:01,572 --> 01:00:05,004
So I think I hope that you can 
figure it out within your 

1138
01:00:05,004 --> 01:00:07,632
conference about how to put 
proper guardrails, right? 

1139
01:00:07,662 --> 01:00:10,935
Because I feel the advancement 
on the technology and the 

1140
01:00:10,935 --> 01:00:13,392
capability, the capacity is very
rapid, right? 

1141
01:00:13,392 --> 01:00:15,792
We can see it month over month, 
week over week. 

1142
01:00:16,242 --> 01:00:19,002
But putting the guardrails is 
something that we are still 

1143
01:00:19,212 --> 01:00:21,929
keeping up behind, right? 
So I think thanks for sharing 

1144
01:00:21,929 --> 01:00:26,071
your perspective on this. 
And I'll add to this one more 

1145
01:00:26,071 --> 01:00:28,519
thing that the problem is the 
feedback loop. 

1146
01:00:28,789 --> 01:00:32,689
Because that positive feedback 
loop, the end results, right? 

1147
01:00:32,809 --> 01:00:35,509
I don't think the hallucinations
that people will get are 

1148
01:00:35,509 --> 01:00:36,785
unbreakable. 
There's some prob, some 

1149
01:00:36,785 --> 01:00:39,469
problematic cases, but I don't 
see that as the major thing. 

1150
01:00:39,829 --> 01:00:43,039
But if I wanna tie this into an 
interesting psychological fact, 

1151
01:00:43,459 --> 01:00:47,474
there are five things that on a 
population basis stay pretty 

1152
01:00:47,474 --> 01:00:51,259
stable. 
And that is the amount of 

1153
01:00:51,259 --> 01:00:54,303
openness, consistency, 
extroversion, agreeableness, and

1154
01:00:54,303 --> 01:00:57,243
neuroticism. 
Those five are pretty good, like

1155
01:00:57,243 --> 01:01:00,265
stable things over time in 
personalities when you zoom out 

1156
01:01:00,265 --> 01:01:04,087
of a population. 
Neuroticism has grown. 

1157
01:01:04,117 --> 01:01:07,388
Because if you always get, if 
everything you do the computer 

1158
01:01:07,388 --> 01:01:11,566
says, yes, everyone thinks this.
When you hit into a little bit 

1159
01:01:11,566 --> 01:01:14,485
of a conflict, you're gonna go 
tense up because you never 

1160
01:01:14,485 --> 01:01:17,093
practiced for it, right? 
You ignore, you are not 

1161
01:01:17,093 --> 01:01:18,598
habituated to having these mini 
conflicts. 

1162
01:01:18,598 --> 01:01:21,628
So there's a real effect. 
We measurably see this. 

1163
01:01:22,018 --> 01:01:25,336
And because of this same thing, 
you're always right, you don't 

1164
01:01:25,336 --> 01:01:28,939
have to try, I think that's why 
the consistency is also 

1165
01:01:28,939 --> 01:01:31,331
decreasing. 
So the consistency decreasing 

1166
01:01:31,331 --> 01:01:33,646
meaning discipline is also 
decreasing. 

1167
01:01:33,886 --> 01:01:36,341
People have a harder time 
following through with what they

1168
01:01:36,341 --> 01:01:38,452
said. 
So the problems I say wouldn't 

1169
01:01:38,452 --> 01:01:41,005
be only in that hallucination 
part, but that feedback loop, 

1170
01:01:41,005 --> 01:01:44,411
that's a huge part. 
Sorry, I just want to elaborate.

1171
01:01:44,593 --> 01:01:47,156
I can say as well it comes back 
to what you shared earlier, 

1172
01:01:47,156 --> 01:01:49,153
right? 
So AI seems to be like kind of 

1173
01:01:49,153 --> 01:01:51,433
like a short-term solution for a
lot of problems, right? 

1174
01:01:51,463 --> 01:01:54,417
Because we might avoid reading 
books, we might avoid doing the 

1175
01:01:54,417 --> 01:01:57,203
hard work. 
We might avoid so many things 

1176
01:01:57,203 --> 01:02:00,193
because AI can just give us, you
know, seemingly pretty good 

1177
01:02:00,193 --> 01:02:03,115
solution in the short term. 
But over the long term probably,

1178
01:02:03,115 --> 01:02:05,880
you know, you won't grow. 
You won't have your critical 

1179
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,221
thinking. 
And probably it will also change

1180
01:02:08,221 --> 01:02:10,583
the way you build relationships 
with other people. 

1181
01:02:11,578 --> 01:02:14,354
So Martijn, I think it's been a 
great pleasure to have you in 

1182
01:02:14,354 --> 01:02:16,310
the show. 
Anything else that you wanna 

1183
01:02:16,310 --> 01:02:19,364
share with us before we go to 
our last question? 

1184
01:02:19,982 --> 01:02:23,202
I have one question for you 
because I think it's relevant. 

1185
01:02:23,262 --> 01:02:25,991
I wanna know, but I also think 
it's relevant for the audience. 

1186
01:02:27,011 --> 01:02:29,981
You have been doing this podcast
for a while now. 

1187
01:02:30,311 --> 01:02:32,081
That is quite some effort to put
in. 

1188
01:02:32,081 --> 01:02:35,351
I mean, I've made podcasts, I've
made content before, so I know 

1189
01:02:35,351 --> 01:02:40,535
this is a huge effort. 
What's the value for you? 

1190
01:02:41,651 --> 01:02:45,216
Yeah, so I think interesting 
enough that you mentioned in the

1191
01:02:45,216 --> 01:02:48,438
beginning about growing, right? 
So one aspect that I use this 

1192
01:02:48,438 --> 01:02:50,496
podcast is actually for me to 
grow. 

1193
01:02:50,916 --> 01:02:54,016
Like having this conversation 
with so many great, you know, 

1194
01:02:54,016 --> 01:02:56,634
thought leaders. 
You know, people like you and 

1195
01:02:56,634 --> 01:02:59,179
exchanging information, I think 
it's really, really important 

1196
01:02:59,179 --> 01:03:01,702
for my growth. 
And being a podcaster, something

1197
01:03:01,702 --> 01:03:04,585
that is very unique is that it 
depends on the style of 

1198
01:03:04,585 --> 01:03:07,402
podcaster you are, right? 
Some are a bit more extremist 

1199
01:03:07,402 --> 01:03:10,249
and more opinionated. 
For me, I try and I try to be 

1200
01:03:10,249 --> 01:03:13,527
more neutral, meaning that I can
hear different extreme 

1201
01:03:13,527 --> 01:03:15,487
perspectives from different 
people. 

1202
01:03:15,667 --> 01:03:18,446
And it kind of like give me a 
different perspectives of on how

1203
01:03:18,446 --> 01:03:20,729
I see things and tackle 
problems, right? 

1204
01:03:21,059 --> 01:03:24,011
I can see the positive things on
both sides and negative things 

1205
01:03:24,011 --> 01:03:26,595
on both sides. 
And that's how I use it to 

1206
01:03:26,595 --> 01:03:29,297
actually grow myself, right, and
I can share it with other people

1207
01:03:29,297 --> 01:03:31,895
as well. 
So, so far the community of 

1208
01:03:31,895 --> 01:03:35,050
listeners that who feel 
benefited from the sharing that 

1209
01:03:35,050 --> 01:03:38,994
I do, that's also one need that 
I feel very good for me which is

1210
01:03:38,994 --> 01:03:41,564
to serve others, right? 
To give values for other people.

1211
01:03:41,775 --> 01:03:45,564
So yeah, those are probably the 
two main things that I use doing

1212
01:03:45,564 --> 01:03:48,980
this podcast, yeah. 
If there would've been less 

1213
01:03:48,980 --> 01:03:51,946
effort and you could have gotten
a summary of all the episodes 

1214
01:03:51,946 --> 01:03:54,490
without the work, do you think 
it would've been the same value?

1215
01:03:55,913 --> 01:03:59,433
Well, one aspect, even not just 
talking about podcasting, I feel

1216
01:03:59,433 --> 01:04:02,739
it during my work as well. 
I'm still doing a lot of 

1217
01:04:02,739 --> 01:04:04,293
hands-on work in engineering, 
right? 

1218
01:04:04,323 --> 01:04:07,716
These days, it's almost very 
easy for everyone to start 

1219
01:04:07,716 --> 01:04:10,473
solving a certain problem just 
by asking AI, right? 

1220
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:14,113
For me, someone who have done 
differently before in the 

1221
01:04:14,113 --> 01:04:17,115
earlier career, right, where you
have to struggle, you know, 

1222
01:04:17,115 --> 01:04:20,562
figure out from Stack Overflow, 
try, you know, and didn't work 

1223
01:04:20,562 --> 01:04:23,301
and struggle, right? 
And compared to now which is 

1224
01:04:23,301 --> 01:04:25,917
like you can just ask different 
AI different solution, keep 

1225
01:04:25,917 --> 01:04:28,437
banging, you know, the 
questions, the prompts, and 

1226
01:04:28,437 --> 01:04:31,323
somehow it could figure it out. 
I think there's a big challenge 

1227
01:04:31,323 --> 01:04:34,593
of, you know, how do you 
actually learn and how do you 

1228
01:04:34,593 --> 01:04:37,437
actually, I don't know, build 
that brain connection to 

1229
01:04:37,467 --> 01:04:40,294
innovate new things, understand 
how fundamentally things work, 

1230
01:04:40,294 --> 01:04:43,121
right? 
I think that that part, that 

1231
01:04:43,121 --> 01:04:46,492
muscle might atrophy. 
And this is something that I 

1232
01:04:46,492 --> 01:04:49,353
worry of myself as well. 
And same thing when you ask 

1233
01:04:49,353 --> 01:04:51,828
about this podcast, if all the 
knowledge out there you can just

1234
01:04:51,828 --> 01:04:54,661
easily search and query, maybe 
it will be good for short term 

1235
01:04:54,661 --> 01:04:56,877
to answer specific question that
you have. 

1236
01:04:57,297 --> 01:05:00,955
But philosophically how you want
to think big in bigger picture, 

1237
01:05:00,955 --> 01:05:03,270
right? 
How do you wanna build a bit 

1238
01:05:03,270 --> 01:05:06,111
better world, you know, solve 
bigger problems, I think it's 

1239
01:05:06,111 --> 01:05:09,051
something that might be a 
challenge if we always continue 

1240
01:05:09,051 --> 01:05:13,450
on this path, yeah. 
Or we rely AI that grows super 

1241
01:05:13,450 --> 01:05:15,837
smart that it can solve 
everything for us. 

1242
01:05:16,892 --> 01:05:18,902
What I'm hearing, so thanks for 
sharing by the way. 

1243
01:05:18,902 --> 01:05:22,334
This is great. 
What I'm hearing is what I'm 

1244
01:05:22,334 --> 01:05:26,104
pondering myself lately. 
I think almost everyone's 

1245
01:05:26,104 --> 01:05:31,077
looking for a quick fix and also
a binary world of ones and 

1246
01:05:31,077 --> 01:05:33,950
zeros. 
Well, that is not the world, 

1247
01:05:33,950 --> 01:05:36,872
right? 
I think nuance is where it is. 

1248
01:05:38,222 --> 01:05:40,982
I think the wisdom is not in the
book summary. 

1249
01:05:41,942 --> 01:05:45,946
I think the value that you just 
explained you got of seeing both

1250
01:05:45,946 --> 01:05:50,999
sides, I think that's wisdom. 
but that might be me, but maybe 

1251
01:05:50,999 --> 01:05:53,271
I, yeah, that's a thing that I'm
think... 

1252
01:05:53,978 --> 01:05:56,932
Yeah I learned from some, 
someone as as well last time, 

1253
01:05:56,932 --> 01:05:59,146
you know maybe in a book or a 
podcast or something. 

1254
01:05:59,416 --> 01:06:03,106
Even reading a book, right, you 
might have the same texts. 

1255
01:06:03,106 --> 01:06:04,846
You might have the same pages, 
right? 

1256
01:06:05,176 --> 01:06:07,630
But different people will 
interpret the things that is 

1257
01:06:07,630 --> 01:06:10,366
shared in the book, maybe it 
could be stories, it could be 

1258
01:06:10,366 --> 01:06:12,952
the concepts, it could be 
whatever that is, differently, 

1259
01:06:12,952 --> 01:06:14,561
right? 
And they learn from those 

1260
01:06:14,561 --> 01:06:15,938
aspects. 
So people's learning path is 

1261
01:06:15,938 --> 01:06:18,542
different even though maybe the 
gist of the summary is kind of 

1262
01:06:18,542 --> 01:06:20,326
like the same, you have the same
bullet points. 

1263
01:06:20,626 --> 01:06:23,212
But how people get there 
actually is something that is 

1264
01:06:23,212 --> 01:06:26,366
unique to them. 
And I find this is the same for,

1265
01:06:26,366 --> 01:06:28,696
you know, maybe podcast, right, 
building conversations. 

1266
01:06:28,864 --> 01:06:31,363
Everyone will take different 
takeaways from different parts 

1267
01:06:31,363 --> 01:06:34,581
of this conversation. 
And but somehow they could learn

1268
01:06:34,581 --> 01:06:37,884
something new from this, yeah. 
Sorry, you were saying something

1269
01:06:37,884 --> 01:06:40,364
as well. 
That's exactly, well, I'm just 

1270
01:06:40,364 --> 01:06:43,826
gonna drop that and go for what 
you just said is exactly what 

1271
01:06:43,826 --> 01:06:46,910
happens in the peer groups. 
I end every peer group so that's

1272
01:06:46,910 --> 01:06:49,804
three hours of going around the 
table and asking what challenge 

1273
01:06:49,804 --> 01:06:52,294
do you have, that you would like
some input on. 

1274
01:06:52,684 --> 01:06:56,074
And in the end I ask, what 
insight did you get and what one

1275
01:06:56,074 --> 01:06:59,644
action are you going to take? 
Everyone is always different. 

1276
01:07:00,844 --> 01:07:03,608
That's so cool. 
And by the way, it can also 

1277
01:07:03,608 --> 01:07:06,369
happen within a person, because 
I have a weird practice that 

1278
01:07:06,369 --> 01:07:09,514
there is a book that I reread 
every year or so, Seven Habits 

1279
01:07:09,514 --> 01:07:11,795
of Highly Effective People by 
Stephen Covey. 

1280
01:07:12,155 --> 01:07:16,679
I get something else from that 
every year, which is very weird,

1281
01:07:16,679 --> 01:07:18,807
but also cool, right? 
Yeah. 

1282
01:07:19,325 --> 01:07:22,158
And what I think lastly, because
that's the last part I would 

1283
01:07:22,158 --> 01:07:26,961
like to give to your listeners. 
Reading, consuming is not the 

1284
01:07:26,961 --> 01:07:30,350
same as producing. 
And I understand that it's the 

1285
01:07:30,350 --> 01:07:33,164
easy way, but you know how 
satisfying producing is because 

1286
01:07:33,164 --> 01:07:36,237
you know how it feels when you 
write a piece of code and it 

1287
01:07:36,237 --> 01:07:38,819
does what you do. 
I recommend if something 

1288
01:07:38,819 --> 01:07:42,539
resonates of a podcast and a 
book, why not write something 

1289
01:07:42,539 --> 01:07:45,949
small about it? 
Ask someone else about an 

1290
01:07:45,949 --> 01:07:48,274
opinion on some. 
But because I think the nuance, 

1291
01:07:48,274 --> 01:07:50,800
that's where you really get 
become a master, right? 

1292
01:07:51,100 --> 01:07:54,050
I think that's the beautiful, 
like I do transformations for 

1293
01:07:54,050 --> 01:07:56,899
companies as well, and I have 
some weird habits. 

1294
01:07:56,917 --> 01:07:59,644
I'm just sharing them. 
At the end, I write everyone 

1295
01:07:59,644 --> 01:08:01,387
that I work intensively with a 
letter. 

1296
01:08:02,159 --> 01:08:05,837
I do it for myself actually. 
I ask them in the end, do you 

1297
01:08:05,837 --> 01:08:07,409
want it? 
If not, also fine. 

1298
01:08:07,529 --> 01:08:11,135
But I do it for myself. 
And I find writing, but also 

1299
01:08:11,135 --> 01:08:13,799
creating, like even preparing 
for this podcast, right? 

1300
01:08:13,799 --> 01:08:16,805
I needed to think about, oh, I 
knew the first and the last 

1301
01:08:16,805 --> 01:08:19,679
question, so I needed to think, 
what's the best way I can do. 

1302
01:08:20,908 --> 01:08:23,981
I will give it my go. 
I'm not saying it will make me 

1303
01:08:23,981 --> 01:08:26,249
like excellent, right? 
But just that reflection. 

1304
01:08:26,249 --> 01:08:30,497
Sometimes it's not about that 
magic new piece of knowledge, 

1305
01:08:30,497 --> 01:08:34,872
but sometimes it's about turning
it into like yeah, digesting it 

1306
01:08:34,872 --> 01:08:36,809
and producing something of 
yourself. 

1307
01:08:36,899 --> 01:08:37,991
I don't know. 
Yeah. 

1308
01:08:37,991 --> 01:08:41,100
As a final thought. 
So yeah this reminds me of the 

1309
01:08:41,100 --> 01:08:44,184
quote by Richard Feynman, right?
So teaching others is the next 

1310
01:08:44,184 --> 01:08:46,446
level of learning kind of, uh, 
you know.... 

1311
01:08:46,469 --> 01:08:48,209
Yeah. 
Yes, absolutely. 

1312
01:08:48,515 --> 01:08:50,645
If you consume a lot, you think 
you know. 

1313
01:08:50,676 --> 01:08:54,305
But take that chance to actually
explain it to others even 

1314
01:08:54,305 --> 01:08:57,426
someone who is beginner or maybe
juniors or whatever that is. 

1315
01:08:57,666 --> 01:09:00,595
And if you can't explain it well
such that they would understand 

1316
01:09:00,595 --> 01:09:02,837
that kind of like shows that 
maybe you don't understand 

1317
01:09:02,837 --> 01:09:06,685
things in the first place. 
Yeah, absolutely. 

1318
01:09:06,685 --> 01:09:08,979
So Martijn, it's been a great 
conversation I have only one 

1319
01:09:08,979 --> 01:09:11,103
last question which is like a 
tradition in my podcast. 

1320
01:09:11,162 --> 01:09:13,502
I call this the three technical 
leadership wisdom. 

1321
01:09:13,622 --> 01:09:16,087
Think of them just like advice. 
Maybe you can share your version

1322
01:09:16,087 --> 01:09:18,700
today, that will be great. 
Yes. 

1323
01:09:19,593 --> 01:09:25,009
The three pieces. 
I will give the very first is in

1324
01:09:25,009 --> 01:09:30,678
order to speed up, you sometimes
need to slow down, meaning 

1325
01:09:30,678 --> 01:09:36,348
exactly what I say. 
But I see people have no problem

1326
01:09:36,348 --> 01:09:38,502
speeding up. 
I have a lot of problems slowing

1327
01:09:38,502 --> 01:09:42,778
down. 
This can mean really block that 

1328
01:09:42,778 --> 01:09:46,024
hour for yourself and don't 
accept other people planning 

1329
01:09:46,024 --> 01:09:49,018
over it, because you call it 
focus time by mistake and people

1330
01:09:49,018 --> 01:09:50,968
know, oh, focus time. 
I can just plan a meeting. 

1331
01:09:51,564 --> 01:09:56,666
Really take time for reflection.
The second is knowledge 

1332
01:09:56,666 --> 01:10:03,319
uninvested in action is useless.
So if there's anything that I 

1333
01:10:03,319 --> 01:10:06,593
have said that resonates 
slightly, my personal request, 

1334
01:10:06,593 --> 01:10:11,066
just try it. 
And if it doesn't work or does 

1335
01:10:11,066 --> 01:10:14,207
work, you will learn something. 
And in both cases, let me know 

1336
01:10:14,207 --> 01:10:22,764
because that's fucking cool. 
The third is learn to speak 

1337
01:10:22,764 --> 01:10:25,530
business. 
And if it is not interesting to 

1338
01:10:25,530 --> 01:10:27,420
you, you might not know enough 
about it yet. 

1339
01:10:28,525 --> 01:10:30,619
Cool. 
I think those are really 

1340
01:10:30,619 --> 01:10:33,085
powerful sharing that you just 
gave to us, right? 

1341
01:10:33,085 --> 01:10:35,695
I really love the kind of like 
the second one, right? 

1342
01:10:35,695 --> 01:10:38,725
So you have all the knowledge, 
you have listened to a lot of 

1343
01:10:38,785 --> 01:10:40,195
podcasts, reading a lot of 
books. 

1344
01:10:40,195 --> 01:10:42,570
But if you never take the 
action, actually it's kind of 

1345
01:10:42,570 --> 01:10:44,605
like useless in the end. 
So... 

1346
01:10:44,718 --> 01:10:46,533
Can you give, you, can, can I 
give you, I'm sorry. 

1347
01:10:46,685 --> 01:10:47,155
Yeah. 
Go ahead. 

1348
01:10:47,208 --> 01:10:49,938
Can I give you this story that 
made this land by me? 

1349
01:10:49,938 --> 01:10:54,423
Because I love telling stories. 
I was rowing competitively, when

1350
01:10:54,423 --> 01:10:58,726
I was still before my studies. 
And at one point, I was coaching

1351
01:10:58,726 --> 01:11:00,856
competitively. 
I lived in Singapore for a year 

1352
01:11:00,856 --> 01:11:03,717
at being the national head 
coach, so I was like, fit all 

1353
01:11:03,717 --> 01:11:06,747
the time. 
Until one point when I stopped 

1354
01:11:06,747 --> 01:11:10,113
rowing competitively but I kept 
eating like I was still rowing 

1355
01:11:10,113 --> 01:11:12,477
competitively. 
And I got pretty fat. 

1356
01:11:13,437 --> 01:11:16,011
Now that happens. 
And at one point, I said to 

1357
01:11:16,011 --> 01:11:17,967
myself, I'm 20 something. 
I don't know, 24. 

1358
01:11:18,267 --> 01:11:22,705
So I need to lose this weight. 
So I moved more and I lost that 

1359
01:11:22,705 --> 01:11:26,263
weight. 
And being a 20 something year 

1360
01:11:26,263 --> 01:11:31,055
old, non polished, let's call 
it, maybe this is also a little 

1361
01:11:31,055 --> 01:11:34,295
bit Dutch, but I was very 
impolitely loudly calling a 

1362
01:11:34,295 --> 01:11:37,523
friend on the phone while in the
tram in Amsterdam saying, yeah, 

1363
01:11:37,523 --> 01:11:41,924
I lost all this weight. 
I regret that part of the story 

1364
01:11:41,924 --> 01:11:44,319
but there was a lesson there 
that was fantastic because the 

1365
01:11:44,319 --> 01:11:46,951
opposite of me, there was a 
person that could not fit in the

1366
01:11:46,951 --> 01:11:49,553
seat. 
Like hugely obese which was 

1367
01:11:49,553 --> 01:11:54,093
taken an interest into this 
story of me losing 20 kilograms.

1368
01:11:54,863 --> 01:11:59,805
And when I hung up, she asked, 
did I just hear that you lost 

1369
01:11:59,805 --> 01:12:03,293
over 20 kilograms? 
And I said, very proud, yeah. 

1370
01:12:04,253 --> 01:12:08,567
Can you tell me how you did it? 
I said, well, I started eating 

1371
01:12:08,567 --> 01:12:12,953
less and moving more. 
And she went like this. 

1372
01:12:12,983 --> 01:12:18,158
And this is the lesson. 
Oh man, I hoped you would have 

1373
01:12:18,158 --> 01:12:23,641
the magic formula. 
Wow, that's a very powerful 

1374
01:12:23,641 --> 01:12:25,548
story. 
It's kind of like, I think it's 

1375
01:12:25,548 --> 01:12:28,671
a good reflection for us. 
We, I think most of us know kind

1376
01:12:28,671 --> 01:12:30,393
of like the solutions, the 
answers. 

1377
01:12:30,723 --> 01:12:33,819
You know, we, have the internet,
we have the books with resources

1378
01:12:33,819 --> 01:12:37,083
available to us. 
If only we could just pick a 

1379
01:12:37,083 --> 01:12:40,202
small part of those, take an 
action, experiment, do small 

1380
01:12:40,202 --> 01:12:42,610
things and iterate, and improve 
your lives. 

1381
01:12:42,910 --> 01:12:46,547
I think that would be, that 
would bring us to somewhere that

1382
01:12:46,547 --> 01:12:49,530
probably we'll never know before
and hopefully to the positive 

1383
01:12:49,530 --> 01:12:52,135
side of your life. 
So thanks for sharing that 

1384
01:12:52,135 --> 01:12:54,924
powerful story, Martijn. 
If people would love to connect 

1385
01:12:54,924 --> 01:12:58,100
with you, you know, hear more 
stories from you or join your 

1386
01:12:58,100 --> 01:13:00,370
peer groups, is there a place 
where they can find you online? 

1387
01:13:01,503 --> 01:13:05,553
So first, I have a little gift. 
I have a free training on taking

1388
01:13:05,553 --> 01:13:08,523
action because it's easy to say.
But then how do you do it? 

1389
01:13:09,093 --> 01:13:11,901
On my website, 
groupeffort.nl/action, there's a

1390
01:13:11,901 --> 01:13:15,243
free training on action. 
It's four times five minutes. 

1391
01:13:15,573 --> 01:13:18,433
It's just quick, but it will 
help you if you're like, okay, 

1392
01:13:18,433 --> 01:13:20,733
but where do I begin? 
So that's a little gift. 

1393
01:13:21,183 --> 01:13:26,402
If you wanna stay in touch, I 
have a newsletter 

1394
01:13:26,402 --> 01:13:28,293
groupeffort.nl/newsletter, also 
not that hard. 

1395
01:13:28,743 --> 01:13:31,856
And if you wanna say hi on 
LinkedIn, I'm called Martijn 

1396
01:13:31,856 --> 01:13:36,503
Versteeg, but you can also go to
linkedin.com/in/versteeg, 

1397
01:13:36,503 --> 01:13:43,161
V-E-R-S-T-E-E-G, and I'd be very
happy to hear if anything that I

1398
01:13:43,161 --> 01:13:46,018
said had a positive or negative 
effect. 

1399
01:13:46,018 --> 01:13:48,608
I hope not, but that will be 
fantastic. 

1400
01:13:48,878 --> 01:13:50,408
Henry, thank you so much for 
having me, man. 

1401
01:13:51,291 --> 01:13:53,101
Yeah, cool. 
I'll put all those links into 

1402
01:13:53,101 --> 01:13:54,736
the show notes. 
Thanks for the gift as well. 

1403
01:13:54,736 --> 01:13:58,421
I hope people learn something a 
thing or two from today's 

1404
01:13:58,421 --> 01:14:00,593
conversations. 
And yeah, thank you so much for 

1405
01:14:00,593 --> 01:14:01,436
your time today, Martijn.