1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,900 Courage needs to be emphasized, even more in software 2 00:00:03,900 --> 00:00:07,300 development context that related with respect. 3 00:00:07,300 --> 00:00:09,800 We cannot expect. The developers will be 4 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:14,700 courageous to tell the truth to have integrity, unless the 5 00:00:14,700 --> 00:00:18,800 organization the management, respect them as a professional. 6 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,700 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surah one. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:30,600 And you're listening to the tekhelet journal. 8 00:00:31,300 --> 00:00:34,400 The show will be bringing you the greatest technical leaders 9 00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,200 practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to 10 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:42,500 discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all 11 00:00:42,500 --> 00:00:46,300 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 12 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:49,100 and to make an impact in your personal work. 13 00:00:49,700 --> 00:00:57,800 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello, welcome to another 14 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,000 episode of the technique journal with me, Ojos, Henry Surya 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,200 without one. Thanks for tuning in and 16 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,500 spending your time here with me listening to this episode. 17 00:01:06,700 --> 00:01:09,400 And if you haven't joined any other technology, no social 18 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,700 media channels. I would encourage you to take a 19 00:01:11,708 --> 00:01:15,200 second right now to click on the links in the show notes and you 20 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:19,100 can follow this podcast, either on LinkedIn Twitter or Instagram 21 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:22,400 with the handle tightly Journal. I would really love to see and 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,300 interact with all of you there. Every day, I post inspirational 23 00:01:26,300 --> 00:01:29,500 quote from the recent podcast episode on those channels. 24 00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:33,000 And I am so happy to have a growing community members who 25 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:36,200 have kindly posted and shared about these podcasts to their 26 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:37,800 Circles of friends and colleagues. 27 00:01:38,100 --> 00:01:41,700 It is my mission to grow this podcast and it's community in 28 00:01:41,700 --> 00:01:45,300 order to reach even more people within the industry and spread 29 00:01:45,300 --> 00:01:48,100 the amazing Knowledge from my wonderful guest, your 30 00:01:48,100 --> 00:01:50,500 interactions. There, either through likes 31 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:54,100 comments, shares, or Retreats, will definitely help me a lot in 32 00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:57,800 Order to achieve my mission and I want to thank you in advance. 33 00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:01,300 Our Guest for today's episode is Joshua butter ghee. 34 00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,300 Joshua is on a life mission to see more people working in a 35 00:02:05,300 --> 00:02:08,699 more Humane work environment where everyone can unleash their 36 00:02:08,699 --> 00:02:12,200 inner superpower and become the best version of themselves. 37 00:02:12,700 --> 00:02:16,500 Joshua initially started his career as a software developer, 38 00:02:16,900 --> 00:02:20,100 but over time became more interested in the people aspect 39 00:02:20,100 --> 00:02:23,100 of software development which then brought him to what he's 40 00:02:23,100 --> 00:02:25,200 currently doing in the last. Last decade or so. 41 00:02:25,800 --> 00:02:29,000 I must say that I have been fortunate enough being able to 42 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,300 work in multiple companies and places where software developers 43 00:02:32,300 --> 00:02:35,400 and techies are highly valued and respected. 44 00:02:35,700 --> 00:02:38,900 However, I do understand that there are still a lot of places 45 00:02:38,900 --> 00:02:41,900 out there in which software developers are not equally 46 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:45,100 treated with the same value and respect or worse. 47 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:48,300 They are even miss treated badly in this episode. 48 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:52,100 I had a chat with Joshua on how we can improve the industry and 49 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:54,100 transform software development to be more. 50 00:02:54,200 --> 00:02:57,200 I mean more exciting and thriving industry in which 51 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,700 people can truly Express their creativity and expertise to 52 00:03:00,700 --> 00:03:02,600 build something that they enjoy doing. 53 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,200 Joshua also shared his observation on how the current 54 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:08,400 covid. Pandemic brought forward, an 55 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:12,400 important message for all of us to bring an adult agility in the 56 00:03:12,408 --> 00:03:16,600 business and personal life, and do not miss Joshua's anecdote, 57 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,100 on how he had to learn about self-organization in his career 58 00:03:20,500 --> 00:03:23,300 unexpectedly. I hope that you enjoy this 59 00:03:23,300 --> 00:03:25,300 episode. And I'm looking forward to 60 00:03:25,300 --> 00:03:28,200 hearing your comments and feedback on the social media. 61 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:31,500 So, let's get started right after our sponsor message. 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,600 Do you want to learn to code? Do you have friends who are 63 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:38,600 looking to learn how to code our sponsor at jetbrains recently? 64 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,500 Launched jetbrains Academy and education platform that offers 65 00:03:42,500 --> 00:03:45,300 interactive Project based learning combined, with 66 00:03:45,300 --> 00:03:48,300 powerful, professional development tools, Advanced, 67 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:51,400 your Java and python skills. With more programming languages 68 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,100 to come to get an extended three month free. 69 00:03:54,300 --> 00:03:57,200 Trial on jetbrains Academy. You can go to technology. 70 00:03:57,200 --> 00:03:58,400 No dot. F /. 71 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,800 Jetbrains Dash Academy. You can go to tackle Journal, 72 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,400 dot, f /. Jetbrains Dash Academy. 73 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,900 Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of the tekhelet 74 00:04:09,900 --> 00:04:12,800 journal podcast. So today I have my friend, 75 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:15,500 Joshua portagee, who has been an experience. 76 00:04:15,500 --> 00:04:19,300 I job coach in the industry. He has been a scrum Master 77 00:04:19,300 --> 00:04:23,400 teaching, businesses and Enterprises on how to do Asia. 78 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:27,400 He has Been teaching a jowl in the last few years on his 79 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,400 YouTube channel as well. So that people are more familiar 80 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:33,100 with what his thought process about age are some of the 81 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:36,500 misconceptions or maybe some of the topical themes. 82 00:04:36,500 --> 00:04:38,700 For example. I saw recently product owner 83 00:04:38,700 --> 00:04:40,800 versus product manager, that kind of stuff. 84 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,000 So do check out Joshua's YouTube channel as well. 85 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,900 If you are interested Joshua, welcome to the podcast and hope 86 00:04:46,900 --> 00:04:48,500 to have a good conversation with you today. 87 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:53,500 Hey Henry, thanks for inviting me to your podcast initially. 88 00:04:53,500 --> 00:04:57,900 I didn't Till I am the right person, the right speaker for 89 00:04:57,900 --> 00:05:02,600 your podcast because the title of your podcast is Take the Lead 90 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:04,500 when you initially approached me. 91 00:05:04,500 --> 00:05:07,400 I've been so far away from being technical. 92 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,700 I've been pushed more to the senior leadership level, but 93 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:13,900 thanks for inviting me. I'm glad to be here. 94 00:05:13,900 --> 00:05:17,300 So hopefully, I can bring value to your audience in today's 95 00:05:17,300 --> 00:05:19,900 podcast. Thanks, just to give a response 96 00:05:19,900 --> 00:05:20,600 on that. Yeah. 97 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:22,400 I have few people asking me as well. 98 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:24,000 Is it only for Tech lead roles in stuff? 99 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,300 The engineer, my original intentions. 100 00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:29,200 Actually, I just shortened the name, but it's actually meant 101 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:32,900 for technical leadership. So, everything around leading 102 00:05:32,900 --> 00:05:36,200 technical teams, or even like, leading transformational in 103 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,800 terms of technology. That would be applicable as 104 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:40,600 well. Which I'm sure you are more than 105 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:43,200 qualified to be in this episode. Okay. 106 00:05:43,300 --> 00:05:45,600 Let's start by asking about yourself. 107 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:48,200 Can you share with the audience about yourself? 108 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,100 What you have been doing? And then what is probably some 109 00:05:51,100 --> 00:05:54,100 of your career highlights and major turning point? 110 00:05:54,700 --> 00:05:57,400 Yeah, okay. I started my career as a 111 00:05:57,500 --> 00:06:00,500 software developer is a Java developer. 112 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,000 I got my degree from a university in Indonesia. 113 00:06:04,500 --> 00:06:07,400 Three years. After I graduated I got this job 114 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:10,200 offer at the time. I was very active on the 115 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,900 Indonesian Java User Group. There is this guy who has been 116 00:06:13,900 --> 00:06:17,900 following me on Yahoo groups and he liked my responses on the 117 00:06:17,900 --> 00:06:19,800 mailing list and then out of the blue. 118 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,100 He just offered me in your pay with your like to work in 119 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:26,100 Australia with Without any further thinking, I said, oh, 120 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:28,400 yes, I would love to interestingly. 121 00:06:28,400 --> 00:06:32,500 The job was to be a Java developer in his company. 122 00:06:32,600 --> 00:06:36,700 Before I worked in Australia. I work in two companies in 123 00:06:36,700 --> 00:06:39,600 Indonesia. And one thing that I noticed it 124 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,900 seems like software developers really hate their job somehow 125 00:06:42,900 --> 00:06:46,900 and they have a self pity about being software developers, but 126 00:06:46,900 --> 00:06:49,700 it's really contradictory on the other hand, many software 127 00:06:49,700 --> 00:06:52,600 developers, like being software developers because of the 128 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,000 salary, they get. But Under handy, hate their job. 129 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,600 One of the question that I kept asking to myself during that 130 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,300 period can suffer development, be more Humane. 131 00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:07,800 So I Googled more Humane approach to software 132 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:10,500 development. There wasn't really much article 133 00:07:10,500 --> 00:07:14,000 on agile and scrum back then. Interestingly. 134 00:07:14,000 --> 00:07:17,600 The first thing that popped up was can schreiber's book. 135 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,500 The first one that I read was agile project management with 136 00:07:20,500 --> 00:07:22,200 scrum. In his book. 137 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:26,500 He challenged the status quo. Whoa, he doesn't have a fear to 138 00:07:26,500 --> 00:07:29,600 challenge the old management where you are thinking, so I 139 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:34,200 thought, wow, it would be interesting if this is done, but 140 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,300 then when I try to spread that when I was still in, Indonesia, 141 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:43,100 people are still arguing that scrum or any other agile. 142 00:07:43,100 --> 00:07:46,800 Iterative approach would just create a lot of extra work 143 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:51,000 because then what happens if you have to do rework in the future 144 00:07:51,000 --> 00:07:52,600 because there is a change in scope. 145 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,100 How about quality, Etc? I took the job. 146 00:07:55,100 --> 00:07:58,300 I flew to Australia. And what's so interesting is 147 00:07:58,300 --> 00:08:02,100 when I work there, that atmosphere the way of working is 148 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:05,500 different, people are working differently and developers are 149 00:08:05,500 --> 00:08:09,600 really treated as human. One of the mind-blowing moment 150 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,400 that I had was when I initially joined the company for one 151 00:08:13,400 --> 00:08:15,200 month. They didn't give me any toss in. 152 00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:18,900 Like already told me what to do until I took an initiative after 153 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,300 one month. I'm not just getting a salary 154 00:08:21,300 --> 00:08:24,900 for doing nothing. And then the manager Yeah, we 155 00:08:24,900 --> 00:08:28,500 self-organized here. I'm glad you found that out. 156 00:08:28,500 --> 00:08:30,300 I'm glad you learned your lesson. 157 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:35,799 What you have to teach me about self-organization by really 158 00:08:35,900 --> 00:08:37,799 leaving me in the while. What? 159 00:08:37,799 --> 00:08:42,700 What kind of company is this? They do some of the scrum events 160 00:08:42,700 --> 00:08:45,500 and emphasized. A lot of technical Excellence, 161 00:08:45,500 --> 00:08:49,500 which back then I didn't do much for example, daily deployment, 162 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:52,100 continuous integration test driven development. 163 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,700 What's so interesting is not really Mechanics, but the vibe 164 00:08:55,700 --> 00:08:58,000 like the atmosphere, the culture. 165 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:02,800 I took a scrum Master training back then and then I discovered 166 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,600 that turns out this company is more focused on living the scrum 167 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:09,200 values rather than the mechanics. 168 00:09:09,300 --> 00:09:11,300 And all of that agile principles. 169 00:09:11,300 --> 00:09:15,100 They lift that rather than emphasizing the mechanics after 170 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:17,100 I took the scrum Master training. 171 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:21,300 I created scrum, Indonesia mailing list, the few years 172 00:09:21,300 --> 00:09:23,900 later after I found that two mailing list their worst. 173 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:27,900 This one guy who called me back then I was still in Australia. 174 00:09:27,900 --> 00:09:31,400 Hey, can you do like a one or two days scrum training for my 175 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:34,400 team's? He trusted me more because I 176 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:38,200 found the mailing list and then I was scrum Master Certified. 177 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,900 The money that I earn only paid for the plane tickets, but I was 178 00:09:41,900 --> 00:09:44,900 willing to do it because I want more and more people to know 179 00:09:44,900 --> 00:09:48,000 more about this really humane way of working. 180 00:09:48,100 --> 00:09:51,100 And then from there, the word discredit more people wants to 181 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:53,700 get the training. Two years later. 182 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,800 Site, if I want to go back to Indonesia and also because my 183 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,800 wife was pregnant, we got our first skit and she doesn't have 184 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:05,300 a permit to stay in Australia. So I took a chance, leave my job 185 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:09,700 started, my own consulting company to run scrum trainings. 186 00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:13,200 The company starting to get established more and more people 187 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,000 know it. But back then, the emphasize 188 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:19,300 were still more towards the team level and middle management 189 00:10:19,300 --> 00:10:22,900 level. And then in 2015, I wrote a book 190 00:10:22,900 --> 00:10:25,700 on scram, but it Is in Bahasa Indonesia? 191 00:10:25,700 --> 00:10:28,800 Interestingly. A lot of people were surprised 192 00:10:28,900 --> 00:10:32,700 is actually someone now, who is speaking on behalf of us as 193 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:36,500 software developers because the book really challenged the old 194 00:10:36,500 --> 00:10:40,800 management thinking and it was written more, towards managers 195 00:10:41,300 --> 00:10:42,900 in the preface. I wrote that. 196 00:10:42,900 --> 00:10:45,900 If you think, you can't change them to give this book to your 197 00:10:45,900 --> 00:10:49,100 managers and then interestingly a lot of software developers 198 00:10:49,100 --> 00:10:51,800 literally did that. And a lot of them aboard five 199 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,700 copies, 10 copies and then Each and one of them to their 200 00:10:55,700 --> 00:11:00,500 managers more and more managers actually studying to open up 201 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:02,800 their mind. A lot of them is willing to try 202 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:05,300 it out willing to learn more and then from there a lot of 203 00:11:05,300 --> 00:11:08,500 managers but mostly middle managers know more about scrum 204 00:11:08,500 --> 00:11:12,400 know that they also need to change knows that they have a 205 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:15,600 really pivotal role in the organization to make the 206 00:11:15,600 --> 00:11:19,500 organization more agile. Since two years ago. 207 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:23,800 I'm starting to move further up in the organization rank. 208 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:28,200 Starting to get invited by more senior leaders. 209 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,700 I keep preaching in the market. If we just focus on the team 210 00:11:31,700 --> 00:11:35,800 level, the level of agility that we get is very suboptimal. 211 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,200 If we want thru agility. This must be done whole 212 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:43,300 Enterprise white, but only you at senior leaders level, who can 213 00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:46,400 make change this big, these middle managers. 214 00:11:46,400 --> 00:11:50,900 The probably can only make a very limited amount of change. 215 00:11:50,900 --> 00:11:54,300 And probably the result is very suboptimal, a lot of see Your 216 00:11:54,300 --> 00:11:57,300 leaders are open-minded. So what do we need to know? 217 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:01,700 What do we need to change? And just like a domino effect 218 00:12:01,800 --> 00:12:06,100 Word of Mouth starts spreading when senior leaders are happy 219 00:12:06,200 --> 00:12:09,700 with the talk to his friends. From another company about what 220 00:12:09,700 --> 00:12:12,500 happened in their company, but the change and they're happy 221 00:12:12,500 --> 00:12:15,200 with the results and it started to spread around. 222 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,300 That's how I evolve. How I started my career and how 223 00:12:18,300 --> 00:12:21,100 I got here today. Thanks for sharing that. 224 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:24,100 I think it's very interesting Journey especially from Um, 225 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:27,900 somebody who is technical going to the people and now is the 226 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:31,600 senior leadership management. I have few things that I noted 227 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:34,700 down when you sharing the first thing that I would like to ask 228 00:12:34,700 --> 00:12:38,400 you keep saying about having more Humane approach for 229 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,900 somebody velopment and also you explain about scrum values and 230 00:12:41,900 --> 00:12:45,500 principles, what are those values and principles that you 231 00:12:45,500 --> 00:12:49,100 think can make software developments live more Humane, I 232 00:12:49,100 --> 00:12:51,500 think because of the organization still have this 233 00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:54,500 project mindset in the project - Set. 234 00:12:54,500 --> 00:12:57,100 There is that iron project triangle? 235 00:12:57,100 --> 00:13:00,700 Where the time scope and budget must be fixed? 236 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:03,900 Because we have a fixed budget. It must be delivered. 237 00:13:03,900 --> 00:13:07,500 According to the fixed time, according to the deadlines and 238 00:13:07,500 --> 00:13:10,000 the scope is fixed. It's not negotiated, because the 239 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,200 customer have already paid a fixed amount of budget. 240 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:16,500 That's where the inhumanity starts because we need to 241 00:13:16,500 --> 00:13:20,300 deliver all of this scope and we can't add additional people 242 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:23,100 because then that will blow up the budget and we have this 243 00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:24,500 deadline to meet. Meet. 244 00:13:24,500 --> 00:13:28,100 I think there's also a lack of professionalism in software 245 00:13:28,100 --> 00:13:30,900 developers, because the developers has been controlled 246 00:13:30,900 --> 00:13:32,800 and intimidated. Hey, you need to work late 247 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:34,700 because we have this deadline to meet. 248 00:13:34,700 --> 00:13:38,100 So oftentimes they left with no other options. 249 00:13:38,100 --> 00:13:41,400 Sometimes they would cut quality to make the work delivered 250 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,300 faster because we've got this deadline to meet and we've got 251 00:13:44,300 --> 00:13:45,900 all of this scope to be delivered. 252 00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:48,000 According to the frigid Karen triangle. 253 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,600 There's no room for negotiation. I kept telling a lot of people 254 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:53,900 about this one of the most important values. 255 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,000 Instagram is respect. I think there's no point doing 256 00:13:57,100 --> 00:13:59,700 scrum, doing all of this mechanics, but there's no 257 00:13:59,700 --> 00:14:03,400 respect and respect goes, both ways product owner, and the 258 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:06,700 management need to respect the software developers, respect 259 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:10,600 them as a professional. So if developers said, no, it 260 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,600 cannot be done. If we do this, we have to cut 261 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:17,500 corners and as a professional, we don't want to cut corners, 262 00:14:17,500 --> 00:14:22,100 but on the other hand, I think developers also need to respect 263 00:14:22,100 --> 00:14:24,700 the product owner because oftentimes X product. 264 00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:29,800 Winner may have a tough decision to make to survive at the, the 265 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:33,800 company and developers need to respect the product owners. 266 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,000 One example that I experienced in this company in Singapore. 267 00:14:37,100 --> 00:14:41,100 The product owner came in and said, we've got this showstopper 268 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:45,400 defects, if we don't fix it. Now, the company is literally 269 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,400 losing, 100,000, Singapore, dollars every minute. 270 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:51,400 The defect is not fixed. Now, that's a tough decision. 271 00:14:51,700 --> 00:14:57,200 And there's a lot of Out there that when we start Sprint, 272 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:00,200 there's no changes some methodology called software 273 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:02,800 developers, have that mindset in that kind of scenario. 274 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,100 That's the moment where software developers actually respect this 275 00:15:06,100 --> 00:15:09,100 product owners, tough decision. Yes, I know this is tough. 276 00:15:09,100 --> 00:15:13,000 But if we don't get to fix this, now, the company may be bankrupt 277 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:16,300 or we can't wait next Sprint, because every minute right now, 278 00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:20,000 the company is losing 100,000, Singapore dollars because the 279 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,400 companies working in a financial institution. 280 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,100 That's how severe the Fact is, but then there is that two-way 281 00:15:26,100 --> 00:15:27,400 discussion. Okay, product. 282 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:30,900 Whenever we know that this is a tough decision will fix the 283 00:15:30,900 --> 00:15:33,100 defect. But of course not everything 284 00:15:33,100 --> 00:15:36,400 that we have planned in this print can be delivered because 285 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:39,300 we are focusing on fixing this defect. 286 00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:42,600 So there's a negotiation. There's that trade-off a very 287 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,200 disrespectful product. Winner is the one who said, no, 288 00:15:45,200 --> 00:15:47,900 you need to fix this defect now. And you also need to deliver 289 00:15:47,900 --> 00:15:50,100 everything that we have planned during Sprint planning. 290 00:15:50,100 --> 00:15:52,900 That's a disrespectful for that unit because the development 291 00:15:52,900 --> 00:15:56,600 team will really Product owners having to make tough decision, 292 00:15:56,600 --> 00:15:59,000 but then the product only respond that way that's 293 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:02,300 disrespectful. So respect, respecting, that we 294 00:16:02,300 --> 00:16:04,900 are adults. We are professionals. 295 00:16:04,900 --> 00:16:07,700 We have the best interest for the company. 296 00:16:07,700 --> 00:16:11,100 We're not Slackers. When we say it cannot be done is 297 00:16:11,100 --> 00:16:16,000 not because we are slacking, or we try to get away from it. 298 00:16:16,100 --> 00:16:18,800 We are being professional. So respect, I think is the most 299 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,000 important values to bring that Humanity back. 300 00:16:22,700 --> 00:16:25,800 Are there any other value? Is that you think are important 301 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,000 in terms of scrum, write the values that you should 302 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:29,800 understand? And probably inculcate as part 303 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:32,100 of the culture. First in the organization. 304 00:16:32,100 --> 00:16:34,500 Maybe you can name some of the values if there are any. 305 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:37,900 Yes, the second one. I think I also mentioned that 306 00:16:37,900 --> 00:16:40,300 this seems to be a lack of professionalism. 307 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,700 Let's say the developers are being cajoled and intimidated, 308 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:44,600 they would. Yeah. 309 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:47,400 Okay, I'll do it so that I will not lose my job. 310 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,100 I think courage needs to be emphasized, even more in 311 00:16:51,100 --> 00:16:55,500 software development context that With respect, we can't 312 00:16:55,500 --> 00:16:57,400 expect. The developers will be 313 00:16:57,400 --> 00:17:01,400 courageous to tell the truth to have integrity. 314 00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:05,500 Unless the organization the management, respect them as a 315 00:17:05,500 --> 00:17:08,900 professional, the industry should encourage software 316 00:17:08,900 --> 00:17:13,900 developers to be courageous do as you say, have integrity, if 317 00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:17,099 you think it's not right? If you think the quality is 318 00:17:17,099 --> 00:17:21,200 horrible, if you think there is a technical debt in the product, 319 00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:26,300 if you think releasing will, Arm our customers tell us right in 320 00:17:26,300 --> 00:17:29,100 front of our face. Don't cover it up. 321 00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:32,600 Don't sugarcoat it. You will not lose your job for 322 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,600 telling the truth. You mentioned that you have in 323 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,400 the last few years and move on into influencing the senior 324 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,600 leadership and management in a company. 325 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,400 And you mention as well that if we want to adopt a gel it cannot 326 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,400 be at the team of middle managers level, because that 327 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,100 right is up optimal. So when you coach D, senior 328 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:56,400 leadership, the see executives Lee, what are some important 329 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,800 things that you want to drive them to change within the 330 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:01,300 company? What may be some of the 331 00:18:01,300 --> 00:18:04,600 practices or maybe some of the workflows or maybe even some of 332 00:18:04,600 --> 00:18:07,500 the ways of working and culture? Maybe you can share from your 333 00:18:07,500 --> 00:18:09,100 experience? What are some of the important 334 00:18:09,100 --> 00:18:12,200 things that senior leadership would need to change first? 335 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,200 A lot of people keep saying agile is about mindset and I 336 00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:21,100 oftentimes found that where the problem starts because mindset 337 00:18:21,100 --> 00:18:23,600 is really abstract. You can't go to senior. 338 00:18:23,900 --> 00:18:26,900 Judgment, you need to change your minds about what's mindset. 339 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:29,500 So I think it should be that way around mindset is really 340 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:31,700 abstract. It's not really tangible. 341 00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:34,500 You need to give a clear guideline and I think the 342 00:18:34,508 --> 00:18:37,400 message should be changing Behavior because that's more 343 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,600 tangible because Behavior can be seen behaviors. 344 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:44,600 Can be observed. One of the behavior that needs 345 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:50,500 to be changed, is shift the focus from output oriented 346 00:18:50,500 --> 00:18:57,000 towards outcome oriented because the Traditional perception is if 347 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,300 the developers deliver all of these features that we have 348 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,900 planned and we are successful, but it's really difficult in the 349 00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:07,800 context of innovation. Innovative work, creative work. 350 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,500 For example, musicians. They work in a creative space in 351 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:14,900 the creative industry. It musicians make as many music 352 00:19:14,900 --> 00:19:17,900 as possible. Does it guarantee that those 353 00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:21,600 musics, those songs? They make will be successful. 354 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,800 Not really right. They can create many. 355 00:19:23,900 --> 00:19:26,500 A songs but then it might not be enjoyable. 356 00:19:26,500 --> 00:19:29,800 It might not be valuable. But if the music is great, A lot 357 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:33,200 of people like it. Even though they may only make 358 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,700 less amount of songs. They may generate a lot of 359 00:19:36,700 --> 00:19:40,200 Revenue because more and more people may buy made download 360 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:43,800 that song that music. So musicians also focus on 361 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,000 outcome rather than output change their perspective towards 362 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,500 focusing on outcome rather than output. 363 00:19:51,500 --> 00:19:53,700 That's the first thing that they need to change. 364 00:19:53,700 --> 00:19:57,400 So Rather than having this reject mindset rather than being 365 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,300 tossed driven focus on the outcome, that can be delivered 366 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:04,800 by the software development team from there. 367 00:20:04,900 --> 00:20:07,900 Everything else should follow. Because then you will start 368 00:20:07,900 --> 00:20:11,500 making changes into your organization to be able to 369 00:20:11,500 --> 00:20:15,300 optimize your outcome. You may change your policy. 370 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:18,100 You may start empowering the team. 371 00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:21,800 Give them the best tools. They can have to deliver optimal 372 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:23,700 outcome. The management may send them. 373 00:20:23,900 --> 00:20:28,100 To technical trainings to be able to create more automations 374 00:20:28,100 --> 00:20:31,900 so that the delivery will be faster and outcome will be 375 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:35,700 achieved, faster start from there first and then everything 376 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:39,200 else will follow because it starts from how we perceive 377 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:41,500 things. So, can you maybe give an 378 00:20:41,500 --> 00:20:43,600 example in terms of in a company? 379 00:20:43,600 --> 00:20:46,100 What are some of the good examples of outcome that they 380 00:20:46,100 --> 00:20:50,300 should drive towards? There are many outcomes and it's 381 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:53,800 really different depending on their organization. 382 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:57,700 In a profit based organization. A good outcome would be at the 383 00:20:57,700 --> 00:20:59,800 end of the day. They make good profit. 384 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,600 I usually have a discussion with this inside the organization. 385 00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,300 There's a lot of outcome metrics that we can create a funnel for 386 00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:11,200 it, from the leading indicators until the lagging indicators. 387 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:14,000 So profit would be considered this lagging indicators. 388 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,000 That would be at the bottom funnel but there are other 389 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,300 leading indicators that can help us towards achieving that 390 00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:22,600 profit. For example, at the top, we 391 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,200 probably have Were of downloads, number of people visit our 392 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,000 website. And then after that are in the 393 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,500 bottom funnel, a lot of hate customers. 394 00:21:30,500 --> 00:21:33,300 A lot of good reviews. People are referring our 395 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:36,300 products. They say positive things about 396 00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:38,800 our product. There's repeat order. 397 00:21:38,900 --> 00:21:42,000 Every time we release a new product, people would buy the 398 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,800 subsequent products. We deliver to the market. 399 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,300 There is that fanaticism. That's the good outcome. 400 00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:50,700 Those are leading indicators, but at the end of the day, if 401 00:21:50,700 --> 00:21:53,800 you have all of those good outcomes, but you're not making, 402 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,000 Good profits. If you're not making good 403 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:58,400 revenues, then, it's not really good. 404 00:21:58,500 --> 00:22:02,300 I see this a lot, especially in some e-commerce companies. 405 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,000 They've got a really good traffic. 406 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,700 There's a lot of people making transaction on their e-commerce 407 00:22:07,700 --> 00:22:11,100 website, they keep returning but the e-commerce website, are not 408 00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,600 making good profit because they also burn a lot of money on 409 00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:16,900 promotions. So that's also not good right? 410 00:22:16,900 --> 00:22:19,800 At the end of the day we have to make good profits. 411 00:22:20,100 --> 00:22:22,400 Yes. Our other leading indicators are 412 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:23,700 good. People are visiting. 413 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,000 Our website. Let's see, our gmv are good. 414 00:22:27,300 --> 00:22:30,600 People are referring our products that repeat orders, 415 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:34,500 people say positive thing about us, but at the same time, we 416 00:22:34,500 --> 00:22:38,800 also spend a lot of money. There's a lot of budget used for 417 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,100 promotion and marketing and we hardly make profit, like, for 418 00:22:43,100 --> 00:22:45,900 the past decade, for example, so that's also not good. 419 00:22:45,900 --> 00:22:49,800 It's not sustainable business. Those leading indicators Matrix 420 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,200 needs to be good. That tells you that you 421 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:55,300 delivered good outcome, but you still To make a good profit. 422 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:58,700 This is in the context of profit based organization, but then it 423 00:22:58,700 --> 00:23:02,000 becomes tricky, if you go to nonprofit organization, or 424 00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,800 government, for example, because they don't exist to make good 425 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:08,300 profit. They're not there to make 426 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,100 high-revenue ineffective. Government have that kind of 427 00:23:11,100 --> 00:23:13,100 mindset. It can be quite dangerous. 428 00:23:13,300 --> 00:23:15,700 Value is still relevant for profit. 429 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,600 Based organization values about profit and revenue, but for 430 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,800 government value might be at the things, like, trust from the 431 00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,900 citizens. And I have work with the local 432 00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:29,200 police department here. They say it value for us in the 433 00:23:29,208 --> 00:23:33,100 context of police department. If people feel secure, if people 434 00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:37,100 have high trust with the police, people say good things about the 435 00:23:37,108 --> 00:23:39,700 police. So that value is not necessarily 436 00:23:39,700 --> 00:23:43,300 a profit, but that's what they want to achieve in their context 437 00:23:43,300 --> 00:23:44,800 because there are police department. 438 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800 That's a good outcome for them. As I think those that you 439 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:49,900 mentioned are some of the good examples. 440 00:23:49,900 --> 00:23:53,400 I like the way you explained about the funneling concept. 441 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:55,900 Where you The leading and lagging indicators. 442 00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,600 I think definitely, if you can build something like that in 443 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,700 organization, you can see at different levels. 444 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,400 I'm kind of outcome that you are achieving in terms of doing 445 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,800 this. Asia coaching. 446 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:09,800 I think people will associate that with also agile 447 00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,000 transformation in a company and I'm sure there are many 448 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:16,700 challenges when you want to try to do this transformation 449 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:18,200 because it seems like pretty big. 450 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,000 You probably need to change the culture that workflow the 451 00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:23,700 behaviors and even the way you measure out. 452 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:27,000 Outcomes which probably might be different from the way they used 453 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,500 to do it in the past. What are some of the maybe? 454 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:34,200 Let's say tactics that you use to actually overcome this 455 00:24:34,300 --> 00:24:38,800 barriers of people not willingly adopting all these new changes 456 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:41,500 or practices from the a gel point of view. 457 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:45,600 It's really interesting when I look around this is quite de la. 458 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,900 Mattock. Do we want the senior leaders to 459 00:24:48,900 --> 00:24:51,900 get on board really quickly, but then it creates a 460 00:24:51,900 --> 00:24:56,600 non-sustainable result. Or we want to do it the right 461 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,500 way. You may not get that trust 462 00:24:58,500 --> 00:25:00,900 immediately, but it's more sustainable his. 463 00:25:00,900 --> 00:25:01,600 What? I mean. 464 00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:05,600 The first model is focusing on, just really quick. 465 00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:09,100 We want to get their support immediately. 466 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:11,700 This approach is often used by big management. 467 00:25:11,700 --> 00:25:14,500 Consultants. You promised unpredictability 468 00:25:14,500 --> 00:25:17,200 you promised the senior leaders. We're going to do Agile 469 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,900 transformation in your company. It's going to take six months. 470 00:25:20,900 --> 00:25:23,400 And here's the plan. Here's the Gantt chart here to 471 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,900 the time. I'm line on how you will reach 472 00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:28,500 agile transformation in another six months. 473 00:25:28,500 --> 00:25:32,400 And this is how much it costs. So when it will be finished, how 474 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,600 much? It's cause it's defined senior 475 00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:37,500 leaders like that. They like predictability. 476 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,900 You can get them on board immediately and this is often 477 00:25:40,900 --> 00:25:44,300 times and approach that's used by many big management 478 00:25:44,300 --> 00:25:47,200 Consultants. I personally think that's not 479 00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:50,200 really a professional. Because oftentimes what happens 480 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:54,500 on the field is because the transformation has In given a 481 00:25:54,500 --> 00:25:57,200 fixed timeline. People are being rushed. 482 00:25:57,300 --> 00:25:59,900 Okay, we've got this deadline in six months. 483 00:25:59,900 --> 00:26:02,700 The whole company must be agile. He's what you need to do. 484 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,400 People are being rushed and then it costs resistance and 485 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,300 resistance, actually slow down the whole change. 486 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,500 Let's say the change doesn't really happen. 487 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:16,400 The senior leaders actually blame the people. 488 00:26:16,900 --> 00:26:18,800 Hey, you not following us being told, right? 489 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,100 So, we hired this expensive, Consultants. 490 00:26:21,100 --> 00:26:22,300 How come change is not happening? 491 00:26:22,300 --> 00:26:25,900 You're not following a quarter. Being to this policy according 492 00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:29,800 to this plan, according to this things that we want you to do to 493 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,900 change. So the blame goes back to the 494 00:26:31,900 --> 00:26:34,900 people and the senior leaders. You think that people are just 495 00:26:34,900 --> 00:26:37,800 stubborn because they don't want to change but that's really 496 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,300 natural. Imagine. 497 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:43,700 If you hire a personal trainers, you want to lose some weight and 498 00:26:43,700 --> 00:26:47,500 if they Crush you, your body probably cannot really adapt. 499 00:26:47,500 --> 00:26:50,300 Their is that resistance, the needs to be Evolution. 500 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:54,000 A good personal trainer will work according to your Our 501 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,900 current situation, The evolutionary approach is more 502 00:26:57,900 --> 00:27:02,400 sustainable and you probably get people more engage because you 503 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,800 are attending their concerns and talking about change. 504 00:27:05,900 --> 00:27:07,800 There is fear what's going to happen. 505 00:27:07,900 --> 00:27:11,600 I have to leave my comfort zone, what's going to happen to my job 506 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:15,200 and you have to attend to people's concern when doing this 507 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:19,000 change inside the organization, if you really want a sustainable 508 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,900 change, if you want agility to be more sustainable, really go 509 00:27:22,900 --> 00:27:26,600 by their side. I'd really adapt to how they 510 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,800 actually work really adapt to the habit and make a really 511 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:36,300 incremental changes rather than a big bang project time based 512 00:27:36,300 --> 00:27:38,200 approach. It's more sustainable. 513 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:40,900 The second approach The evolutionary approach is much 514 00:27:40,900 --> 00:27:44,100 harder to get the management to get on board. 515 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,800 I often tell these two leaders scrum is actually not really 516 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,400 limited to just software development because when we read 517 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,600 scrum guide, the word software is not mentioned. 518 00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:58,200 Even once in fact, scrum use a more generic term that is 519 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:03,000 product so we can actually use scrum to help the organization 520 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:05,900 change in a more evolutionary way. 521 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,400 So, let's make small changes, small, incremental changes. 522 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,800 Let's start with one month. Period, what is the most 523 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,500 critical? And less disruptive way to 524 00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:18,200 change the organization? It's less disruptive, but the 525 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,600 benefit will be visible immediately. 526 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:23,600 And then at the end of the one-month, let's review. 527 00:28:23,700 --> 00:28:26,300 It. I often bring Matrix for this 528 00:28:26,300 --> 00:28:28,900 because if you make small incremental changes without 529 00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:31,500 Matrix, then you don't really know whether things have changed 530 00:28:31,500 --> 00:28:34,300 to your listener. I would suggest search 531 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:37,500 evidence-based management. You can go to scrum dot org 532 00:28:37,500 --> 00:28:43,300 website scrum dot org slash ebm. So I usually coupled this with 533 00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:47,700 IBM metrics, during the Sprint review, at the end of the month. 534 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:51,800 Let's look whether the ebm metrics have changed is our time 535 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:55,400 to Market improving is our Lead time improving is our cycle 536 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,600 time. Improving houses are technical. 537 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:59,900 Depth. For example, how is a team level 538 00:28:59,900 --> 00:29:03,100 of motivation? Are we delivering value much 539 00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:06,800 better than before. How is our production level 540 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,600 incidence is the developer still being interrupted in the middle 541 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,800 of the spring because of production incidents. 542 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,200 How is our defect Trends? Are we releasing much more 543 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:19,500 frequent now than before. How is our mean time to repair? 544 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:23,100 All of these metrics are inspected being reviewed at the 545 00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:25,900 end of Every Sprint. And then after that, we do 546 00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:29,700 retrospective, we find a tangible way to improve the way. 547 00:29:29,700 --> 00:29:32,900 We bring change into the organization for the next month 548 00:29:32,900 --> 00:29:35,600 in this month. Did we cause any resistance is 549 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,000 people embracing it and if the organization discovered there 550 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,600 was resistance along the way, let's not blame people. 551 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,800 Let's use that as a learning opportunity. 552 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,800 Why was there resistance? And how can we create less 553 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,600 resistance in the following one month, Sprint and continue doing 554 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,300 that. When change is And it's 555 00:29:54,300 --> 00:29:56,600 relatively then change becomes a habit. 556 00:29:56,700 --> 00:29:58,900 Now. The organization is actually 557 00:29:58,900 --> 00:30:01,600 already living the agile principle. 558 00:30:01,700 --> 00:30:05,200 That change is now the new Norm because now every month, we are 559 00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,800 changing something inside our organization and people might 560 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,500 not feel much more resistance than I had this experience and 561 00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:14,900 we will post the case study soon. 562 00:30:14,900 --> 00:30:18,400 It's still being reviewed by scrum dot orc and my client. 563 00:30:18,500 --> 00:30:21,600 So interestingly, one of the thing that the observe in this 564 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,600 client now everyone in Including the senior leaders are always 565 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,400 looking forward to attend the Sprint review because they see 566 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,500 this as an opportunity for learning their perspective 567 00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:36,900 changed because of that habit, because change is being done in 568 00:30:36,900 --> 00:30:40,800 a more natural way rather than being pushed from the top to 569 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,200 answer your questions. We need to balance it. 570 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:45,500 We make a small incremental changes. 571 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:49,700 And when we communicate to management, I do my best to 572 00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:53,400 prevent using the word transformation so that I'm not. 573 00:30:53,700 --> 00:30:56,500 Indicating to the senior leaders, there is an end to this 574 00:30:56,500 --> 00:30:59,400 because that's a false thinking, you can always be more agile. 575 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,700 You can always be better than yesterday. 576 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,100 We may not be able to promise predictability. 577 00:31:04,100 --> 00:31:07,400 But on the other side of the coin we can tell them. 578 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:11,200 We are actually limiting the wrist from the change. 579 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,200 So you don't have to spend big budget to create change. 580 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,800 Once you see benefits from this small change, you can invest 581 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:24,600 more money and if you want to stop, you can stop at any time. 582 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:26,800 So why don't we use a different approach? 583 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,400 Use of more incremental evolutionary approach to change 584 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:33,900 to that we manage risk in losing millions of dollars for this and 585 00:31:33,900 --> 00:31:37,300 then also use metrics because management? 586 00:31:37,300 --> 00:31:41,600 Really like numbers, as I mentioned you Z BM Matrix 587 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,300 evidence-based management metrics. 588 00:31:43,300 --> 00:31:46,200 And if your Sprint is a one-month Sprint for making 589 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,300 these changes shootout, during Sprint review, they like that 590 00:31:49,300 --> 00:31:52,600 because now they can see evidence immediately. 591 00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:54,100 The result of this. Will change. 592 00:31:54,100 --> 00:31:57,400 So they don't have to wait. Six months later to see real 593 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,800 tangible change inside the organization. 594 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,800 Thanks for sharing all these. I think it all makes sense. 595 00:32:02,900 --> 00:32:04,800 I just want to make a few comments about the 596 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:07,900 predictability approach. I find it a little bit ironic in 597 00:32:07,900 --> 00:32:10,000 a sense that you want to do this agility. 598 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:13,800 But doing in a project management way, bikes are six 599 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,200 months, fixed budget fixed scope and you will be transformed. 600 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:21,400 I think those kind of approach tends to focus a lot more on, 601 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:24,100 just the practices. For example, Maybe, Be by 602 00:32:24,100 --> 00:32:27,100 introducing daily stand-up, or Sprint review, retrospective and 603 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:30,400 all that, but actually the lack of the essence, and yes, of, 604 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,800 what do you call the habits, the Norms, the culture, even 605 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,100 sometimes, and maybe that is one of the probably major causes y. 606 00:32:38,100 --> 00:32:42,400 A gel transformation is deem not working in many places and 607 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,900 that's why they are little bit of bad rap about a gel lately. 608 00:32:46,100 --> 00:32:49,600 Yes, you're right. And I think, the people aspect 609 00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:53,500 is often neglected, agile transformation is really 610 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:58,000 Interesting, it's different to other kinds of transformation 611 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,600 because we're changing habits. This is different. 612 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,700 Let's say to digital transformation. 613 00:33:02,700 --> 00:33:07,700 For example, probably, we just digitalize all of our processes, 614 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:12,800 the way we work and we can train people to be more digital 615 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:17,400 literate, but when it comes to Agile transformation, we're not 616 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:22,100 just telling them to use process or mechanics. 617 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:24,200 There is habit. That is Change. 618 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:28,500 Also, the way they communicate, the way they behave, the way 619 00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:32,300 they perceive things. It's quite different and they 620 00:33:32,300 --> 00:33:36,100 may miss their comfort zone. They may have fear, and we need 621 00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:39,100 to attend to that. So maybe just a personal 622 00:33:39,100 --> 00:33:42,300 question as well. What do you see the current 623 00:33:42,300 --> 00:33:44,700 Trend these days about Asia? Adoption? 624 00:33:44,700 --> 00:33:46,800 Even major has been around for more than 10 years. 625 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:48,900 I think. How do you see in the industry 626 00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:53,400 in terms of agility companies really have adopted agility or I 627 00:33:53,700 --> 00:33:55,700 Still far off behind? Yes. 628 00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:59,100 I had thought about this and we really living in a very 629 00:33:59,100 --> 00:34:03,600 interesting time today because of the pandemic in the past six 630 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,600 months. I noticed organizations. 631 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,699 Now, start to realize that the old approach will no longer be 632 00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:15,900 relevant after covid, post covid, during this pandemic era. 633 00:34:15,900 --> 00:34:18,500 There's so many uncertainty. It's so blurry. 634 00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:21,800 In fact, we may not even know what's going to happen or school 635 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:23,199 with or when that's going to happen. 636 00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,000 In is things going back to normal, what industry will still 637 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,900 exist, which industry will be bankrupt. 638 00:34:29,900 --> 00:34:33,100 I think when I watch the new serveral, big companies has 639 00:34:33,100 --> 00:34:35,400 already gone bankrupt during the pandemic. 640 00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,199 Some companies becomes a winner. They reap benefits from this but 641 00:34:39,199 --> 00:34:42,400 some industry May no longer exist, post covid. 642 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,300 What I notice is companies realized the need to change. 643 00:34:46,300 --> 00:34:49,500 They need to be more Nimble, more adaptable. 644 00:34:49,500 --> 00:34:53,100 What I often hear on the field? The word learning. 645 00:34:53,699 --> 00:34:56,500 Relations. Now realize they need to be a 646 00:34:56,500 --> 00:34:59,500 learning organization. They need to learn fast. 647 00:34:59,500 --> 00:35:01,600 It's beyond just delivering fast. 648 00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:06,000 I think the message that often heard by people, when they hear 649 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,700 agile is fast delivery during this pandemic, the word learning 650 00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:14,400 fast becomes more prominent when you learn fast, that means you 651 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,000 can adapt to any unpredictability that hits you. 652 00:35:18,100 --> 00:35:22,000 I personally think this is just my hunch, but I think it will be 653 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:27,200 the norm and maybe people don't really care so much about the 654 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:32,300 word agile or scrum because it will be the norm because if it's 655 00:35:32,300 --> 00:35:35,800 the norm, what's the point of using that word people start to 656 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:39,700 realize the old way may no longer be relevant, especially 657 00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:43,400 posts covid. People now are not fighting it 658 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:44,600 anymore. It's so interesting. 659 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:49,300 A virus changed, the way people behave, but now, because of 660 00:35:49,300 --> 00:35:51,700 covid, we need to change. We need to be adaptable. 661 00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:55,600 We need to be fast learner. To be able to adapt to any 662 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,600 situation that may hit us. And that's what agile is 663 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,400 actually all about. I think the word agile scrum may 664 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,200 not be really that overused because people are already 665 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,700 working that way because of the unpredictability that's 666 00:36:08,700 --> 00:36:12,500 introduced by covid-19 really good observation there. 667 00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:15,200 And I fully agree with you the situation, this pandemic 668 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,100 actually forces many businesses. Even people individuals to 669 00:36:19,100 --> 00:36:21,900 really think about their previous ways of working 670 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:25,100 probably try to come Come up with new ways of working that 671 00:36:25,100 --> 00:36:28,200 probably is going to be better more adaptable to situations 672 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:30,600 more. Well, to unpredictability. 673 00:36:30,700 --> 00:36:34,000 I myself in the last six months or so as well, have transformed 674 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:38,500 in a way did a lot of new things like because we simply do not 675 00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:40,700 know yet. We're still not out of the woods 676 00:36:40,700 --> 00:36:43,300 of this pandemic. So we are still embracing this 677 00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:46,000 unpredictability in a way. So thanks for that. 678 00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:47,700 I think it's a very apt observation. 679 00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:51,100 Before we end the episode. Normally I would ask each of my 680 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:53,500 guests to share their tree technical leadership. 681 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,400 Wisdom, so Joshua, would you be able to share? 682 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:58,400 What are your technical leadership, wisdom? 683 00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,900 All right, the first one, our perception about people. 684 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,600 People naturally want to change and they adapt to the system 685 00:37:06,700 --> 00:37:09,400 that is surrounding them. So don't try to change. 686 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,400 People change the system where they are working. 687 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:16,100 The second thing. I see a lot of leaders still 688 00:37:16,100 --> 00:37:20,000 need Improvement in this space. I mentioned in today's episode 689 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,400 about having courage and thats related with integrity. 690 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:27,000 The second wisdom is, if people hate you for doing the right 691 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,900 thing, at least you've done the right thing. 692 00:37:29,100 --> 00:37:31,400 So, focus on that have integrity. 693 00:37:31,500 --> 00:37:34,000 What is Right? Must always be third thing. 694 00:37:34,100 --> 00:37:37,600 I'm really passionate about talking about professionalism, 695 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:41,000 professionalism in soccer development, is important, 696 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:45,100 because if we see now around us software, it's an integral part 697 00:37:45,100 --> 00:37:49,400 of humans life now, so don't let people die because the low 698 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,400 quality of your software. There's so many examples how 699 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,300 people literally die Because of low quality software, so be 700 00:37:56,300 --> 00:37:59,600 professional pretty good wisdom. I would say, I like the second 701 00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:01,900 one. So, thanks Joshua for coming to 702 00:38:01,900 --> 00:38:03,900 this show. Sharing your experience, your 703 00:38:03,900 --> 00:38:06,800 knowledge or wisdom, your observation about agility. 704 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,600 And where can people find you online. 705 00:38:08,900 --> 00:38:15,800 I am on Lincoln just search J part 2 G because my short URL is 706 00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,000 ohj party. Either on LinkedIn, Twitter and 707 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,400 on YouTube. So you can either find me on 708 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:25,600 LinkedIn or subscribe to my Each Channel if you like that and you 709 00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:28,200 can also follow me on Twitter. /, J party. 710 00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,200 Thanks again, Joshua and I hope to see you again in the next 711 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,300 episode in the future. Yeah, cool. 712 00:38:33,700 --> 00:38:37,100 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 713 00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:39,900 till the end. If you highly enjoyed, please 714 00:38:39,900 --> 00:38:42,700 share it with your friends and colleagues who you think would 715 00:38:42,700 --> 00:38:45,500 also benefit from listening to this episode. 716 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:48,600 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 717 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,500 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 718 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,400 It really really helps me a lot. Order to grow this podcast 719 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,900 better. You can also find the full show 720 00:38:57,900 --> 00:39:01,500 notes of this conversation on the episode page at technology. 721 00:39:01,500 --> 00:39:04,800 Know the death website, including the full transcript, 722 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,500 interesting quotes and links to the resources and mentions from 723 00:39:08,500 --> 00:39:11,300 the conversation. And lastly make sure to 724 00:39:11,300 --> 00:39:14,700 subscribe to the show's mailing list on technology node are deaf 725 00:39:14,700 --> 00:39:17,300 to get notified for any future episodes. 726 00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,300 Stay tuned for the next technique Journal episode. 727 00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:22,100 And until then. Goodbye.