1
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,500
Tech capital is about creating 
something that enables things 

2
00:00:03,500 --> 00:00:06,600
that weren't possible before. 
And those are the kind of stuff 

3
00:00:06,600 --> 00:00:09,100
that eventually end up paying 
long-term. 

4
00:00:09,500 --> 00:00:12,400
Do have to ensure that when you 
have these initiatives, when you

5
00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:16,100
working on Tech Capital, it has 
to actually be Capital. 

6
00:00:16,600 --> 00:00:19,700
That's actually genuinely 
helping the business enabling 

7
00:00:19,700 --> 00:00:21,300
other people in your 
organization. 

8
00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:29,200
Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya Barragan.

9
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,700
And you're listening to the 
tekhelet Juno, the show will be 

10
00:00:34,700 --> 00:00:38,000
bringing you the greatest 
technical leaders practitioners 

11
00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:41,500
and thought leaders in the 
industry to discuss about their 

12
00:00:41,500 --> 00:00:46,300
Journey ideas and practices that
we all can learn and apply to 

13
00:00:46,300 --> 00:00:49,300
build a highly performing 
technical team and to make an 

14
00:00:49,300 --> 00:00:54,000
impact in your personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

15
00:00:59,100 --> 00:01:00,800
Hello, to all of you who are 
listening. 

16
00:01:01,100 --> 00:01:04,300
It's always good to be back here
again with another new episode 

17
00:01:04,300 --> 00:01:06,000
of the technology, you know, 
podcast. 

18
00:01:06,300 --> 00:01:08,500
Thanks for tuning in, and 
spending your time with me 

19
00:01:08,500 --> 00:01:10,500
today, listening to this 
episode. 

20
00:01:10,900 --> 00:01:13,700
If you haven't, please subscribe
to technology, you know, on your

21
00:01:13,700 --> 00:01:17,800
favorite podcast apps such as 
Spotify, Apple podcast, Google 

22
00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:20,700
podcasts and YouTube. 
And also, please follow 

23
00:01:20,700 --> 00:01:24,000
technology on our social media 
channels on LinkedIn, Twitter 

24
00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,600
and Instagram. 
I'm looking forward to Connect 

25
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,300
with you, hearing your comments 
and feedback there. 

26
00:01:29,800 --> 00:01:32,600
And if you'd like to make some 
contribution to the show and 

27
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,800
support the creation of this 
podcast, Please Subscribe as a 

28
00:01:35,808 --> 00:01:40,000
patron at package, you know, 
dot, f / Patron, I highly 

29
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,000
appreciate your support and your
contribution would help me 

30
00:01:43,000 --> 00:01:45,400
towards sustainably producing 
this show. 

31
00:01:45,500 --> 00:01:49,400
Every week for today's episode. 
I am happy to share my 

32
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:51,300
conversation with Aviv. 
Ben. 

33
00:01:51,300 --> 00:01:54,300
Yosef. 
Aviv is an advisor and 

34
00:01:54,300 --> 00:01:58,300
consultant for Tech executives. 
And lead us to help them, create

35
00:01:58,300 --> 00:02:01,800
world-class engineering teams, 
ranging from early startups to 

36
00:02:01,800 --> 00:02:05,000
Fortune, 100 companies in this 
episode. 

37
00:02:05,100 --> 00:02:08,100
Are we've shared with me in 
depth about the tech executive 

38
00:02:08,100 --> 00:02:11,800
operating system? 
His latest book for any Tech 

39
00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,500
leaders in the industry to 
maximize their leverage and make

40
00:02:15,500 --> 00:02:17,500
great impact in their 
organization. 

41
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:21,300
We covered a lot of things that 
I certainly believe would help a

42
00:02:21,300 --> 00:02:24,500
lot of tech leaders out there 
who are currently leading and 

43
00:02:24,500 --> 00:02:27,700
managing engineering teams. 
Be it as a tech lead, 

44
00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,900
engineering manager, head of 
engineering and also CIO and CTO

45
00:02:32,500 --> 00:02:36,400
our conversations include a 
number of insightful things such

46
00:02:36,400 --> 00:02:40,600
as what the tech executive 
operating system is the axioms 

47
00:02:40,600 --> 00:02:44,300
of tech leadership, how Tech 
executive should focus on 

48
00:02:44,300 --> 00:02:46,700
producing Tech Capital to drive 
value. 

49
00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,800
Instead of obsessing about tech.
Dot Shifting, the engineers 

50
00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,100
mindset to create impact by 
adopting coders Without Borders.

51
00:02:54,100 --> 00:02:58,300
Mentality moving yourself. 
Up to the decision stream, in 

52
00:02:58,300 --> 00:03:02,200
order to increase leverage, the 
importance of product Mastery, 

53
00:03:02,500 --> 00:03:06,800
and how to approach and Tackle 
organizational depth towards the

54
00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:10,600
end of if also explain why we 
should not forget to put more 

55
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:14,600
emphasis on product-oriented 
Engineers instead of principal 

56
00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,600
Engineers who Focus solely on 
just the tag. 

57
00:03:18,100 --> 00:03:21,900
I personally benefited a lot 
from avoid sharing, especially 

58
00:03:21,900 --> 00:03:24,700
since I recently started my new 
role in the Engineering 

59
00:03:24,700 --> 00:03:28,300
Management and I hope That many 
of you could also benefit from 

60
00:03:28,300 --> 00:03:31,300
this episode. 
If you like it, consider helping

61
00:03:31,300 --> 00:03:35,000
the show by living it a rating 
review or comment on your 

62
00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:38,700
podcast app or social media 
channels, those reviews and 

63
00:03:38,708 --> 00:03:42,300
comments are one of the best 
ways to help me get this podcast

64
00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:45,600
to reach more listeners and 
hopefully they can also benefit 

65
00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:47,400
from the contents in this 
podcast. 

66
00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,300
So let's get this episode 
started right after our sponsor 

67
00:03:51,300 --> 00:03:53,500
message. 
Are you looking for a new cool? 

68
00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:57,200
Swag technology, you know now 
offers you Swags that you can 

69
00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:00,800
purchase online. 
These wax are printed on demand 

70
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,100
based on your preference and 
will be delivered safely to you 

71
00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,700
all over the world where 
shipping is available. 

72
00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,800
Check out all the cool tracks 
available by visiting 

73
00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:13,100
technology, you know, dot, f / 
shop, and don't forget to break 

74
00:04:13,100 --> 00:04:15,300
yourself. 
Once you receive any of those 

75
00:04:15,300 --> 00:04:20,700
tracks. 
Hey everyone, welcome back to 

76
00:04:20,700 --> 00:04:23,300
another new episode of the 
package, you know, today I have 

77
00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:26,200
with me someone from Israel, so 
he's an author. 

78
00:04:26,300 --> 00:04:28,500
Advisor and coach for 
executives. 

79
00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,900
He is the author of the book 
called Tech executive operating 

80
00:04:31,900 --> 00:04:34,000
system. 
So in this episode, I hope we 

81
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:37,200
can talk a lot about that or 
what is Tech executive operating

82
00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,300
system. 
Exactly. 

83
00:04:38,500 --> 00:04:41,400
And what are we if is trying to 
tell Tech Executives in order to

84
00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:45,500
increase and maximize their 
leverage in an organization, so 

85
00:04:45,500 --> 00:04:48,100
a wave, welcome to the show. 
We're excited to have you here. 

86
00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:49,400
All right. 
Thank you. 

87
00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:52,000
Very excited to be here. 
So I believe in the beginning. 

88
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:54,900
Maybe you can introduce yourself
telling us about your career 

89
00:04:54,900 --> 00:04:57,100
Journey, maybe some highlights 
and Turning points. 

90
00:04:57,700 --> 00:05:00,200
Yeah sure. 
So I must've been a spiv based 

91
00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:03,100
in Israel. 
Like you said, I taught myself 

92
00:05:03,100 --> 00:05:05,300
coding around when I was nine 
years old. 

93
00:05:05,300 --> 00:05:07,700
And ever since I've Been a 
Murder with code and we're 

94
00:05:07,700 --> 00:05:10,600
creating this magical world. 
We can just type on our 

95
00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:12,500
keyboards and stuff happens. 
I still find it. 

96
00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:15,200
Magical in Israel. 
You have to do army service. 

97
00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:17,600
So I served in one of the 
computer units. 

98
00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:21,000
That was the first time that I 
actually had to code with other 

99
00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:23,200
people, which was an amazing 
experience for me. 

100
00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:25,500
And I learned so much and 
afterwards. 

101
00:05:25,500 --> 00:05:28,700
I worked at IBM for a bit. 
I was the first employee at a 

102
00:05:28,707 --> 00:05:30,600
start-up for the past nine 
years. 

103
00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:33,700
I've been independent and that 
was a big change for me. 

104
00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:36,200
After being a first employee at 
a start-up. 

105
00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:40,000
I realized that I want to be 
master of my own and decide how 

106
00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,200
I'm going to do things and do 
whatever interests me at the 

107
00:05:43,200 --> 00:05:44,600
beginning. 
I was just got a super 

108
00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,500
freelancer. 
I went around a bunch of very 

109
00:05:47,500 --> 00:05:50,800
good startups here in Israel, 
and I hope them with product 

110
00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:54,400
development coding. 
Basically, I call myself a very 

111
00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,700
expensive Band-Aid because We're
engineering teams that we're 

112
00:05:57,700 --> 00:05:59,400
delivering, as fast as they 
should be. 

113
00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,900
And so they have to bring 
someone like me. 

114
00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:06,500
And I had a bunch of fun. 
I helped 567 Acquisitions of 

115
00:06:06,500 --> 00:06:09,400
work with several companies that
ended up becoming unicorns. 

116
00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,900
So it was really so much fun for
me as someone who loves code. 

117
00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:16,000
But after a while I realized 
that I got to the company. 

118
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,800
I saw the quality become better,
our Southern deliver faster, but

119
00:06:20,000 --> 00:06:23,400
when I left things usually went 
down to the way it was before 

120
00:06:23,700 --> 00:06:27,700
and that was when I realized 
that my My passion has shifted 

121
00:06:27,700 --> 00:06:30,500
from actually writing the code 
to helping people, create 

122
00:06:30,500 --> 00:06:33,800
amazing organizations, that 
write code amazing code without 

123
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,000
needing someone like me to be 
brought in. 

124
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,600
And for the past, I would say 
three years, I've shifted, and 

125
00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:43,600
I'm focusing on helping ctOS 
peepees of engineering because 

126
00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,700
of our Indie to create these 
world-class engineering teams. 

127
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:48,500
So that's the mission. 
I've been on. 

128
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:52,300
I'm sure in terms of transition 
from being the coder, the doer 

129
00:06:52,300 --> 00:06:56,600
Implement to become like a free 
independent consultant and Doing

130
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,400
freelancing, maybe sometimes and
Consulting people. 

131
00:06:59,700 --> 00:07:01,600
I'm sure there's a bit of 
transition there. 

132
00:07:01,900 --> 00:07:04,600
Maybe you can share a little bit
for people who are also looking 

133
00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,400
to change their career from 
being just a doer into someone 

134
00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,100
who is Consulting. 
Maybe I need tips or advice. 

135
00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:12,800
Yeah. 
I think that it actually was 

136
00:07:12,800 --> 00:07:16,100
done to the same things that 
make you an excellent executive 

137
00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:18,700
or I'm excellent even engineer. 
And we're going to touch on 

138
00:07:18,700 --> 00:07:20,600
that. 
I think later in our discussion,

139
00:07:20,900 --> 00:07:24,500
but you have to adopt the 
mindset of thinking, what would 

140
00:07:24,500 --> 00:07:27,900
make the clients condition? 
Better and what's in the best 

141
00:07:27,900 --> 00:07:30,700
interest of the client? 
If you are driven from that, 

142
00:07:30,700 --> 00:07:33,600
sometimes that means, for 
example, you're in a sales 

143
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,700
meeting with a potential client 
and you realize that the thing 

144
00:07:36,700 --> 00:07:40,200
that's best for them might not 
be to work with you when that 

145
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,200
happens, you realize that you 
can do the right thing and tell 

146
00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,200
them, we shouldn't be working 
together and maybe connect them 

147
00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,200
to someone else. 
That's the kind of mindset that 

148
00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:49,700
you need. 
And that's when things actually 

149
00:07:49,700 --> 00:07:53,100
in my experience, start working 
when you can allow yourself to 

150
00:07:53,100 --> 00:07:56,800
do that and it's a bit scary. 
But with the right, Work, I 

151
00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,900
believe that more people can do 
this than would imagine. 

152
00:08:00,500 --> 00:08:02,100
Of course. 
We are going to talk a lot about

153
00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:04,500
how you would advise Tech 
Executives. 

154
00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:06,800
But first of all, maybe tell us 
a little bit more. 

155
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:09,800
What do you mean by Tech 
executive operating system? 

156
00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,800
What is this operating system 
all about? 

157
00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:14,000
Yeah. 
So here, I've been working with 

158
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,900
dozens of people, who some are 
first-timers as Executives in 

159
00:08:17,900 --> 00:08:19,700
charge of engineering 
Innovations. 

160
00:08:19,900 --> 00:08:23,800
And sometimes it's not their 
first rodeo and still I saw that

161
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:25,800
I keep repeating the same 
messages. 

162
00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:29,700
I keep saying the same 
principles when I noticed that. 

163
00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,299
I know that means that it's 
something that I need to share 

164
00:08:33,299 --> 00:08:36,000
even more often. 
I've collected all of those 

165
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:38,299
principles under this big 
umbrella, which are called the 

166
00:08:38,299 --> 00:08:42,200
tech executive operating system.
Because I think that there are a

167
00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,200
bunch of principles and 
guidelines. 

168
00:08:44,500 --> 00:08:47,600
There are in comment for no 
matter if you're a tiny startup 

169
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,800
in your first year, and if you 
are unicorn with hundreds of 

170
00:08:50,800 --> 00:08:54,300
Engineers under you, I see the 
same messages in the same 

171
00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:58,600
principles helping And all of 
those levels, so that's what the

172
00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,400
operating system is intended to 
help my readers with. 

173
00:09:01,900 --> 00:09:05,600
So is it intended for like 
incumbant Tech leaders or is it 

174
00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,000
for aspiring new leaders? 
Maybe tell us more about this 

175
00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:12,500
operating system. 
The book is written in a way 

176
00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:15,900
that approaches people who are 
currently in a role of an 

177
00:09:15,900 --> 00:09:18,100
executive. 
It might be the first week, and 

178
00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:21,600
it might be three years into the
road doesn't matter, but I've 

179
00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:25,100
been getting feedback from many 
readers that they find it very 

180
00:09:25,100 --> 00:09:28,200
helpful for them to To decide 
whether they should become an 

181
00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:30,600
executive order. 
Their role is good for them and 

182
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:33,300
to realize what they should be 
working on for themselves. 

183
00:09:33,300 --> 00:09:36,500
If they are looking to achieve 
such a promotion or eventually 

184
00:09:36,500 --> 00:09:38,300
start your own startup and stuff
like that. 

185
00:09:38,500 --> 00:09:40,500
So I think it's beneficial to 
everyone. 

186
00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:44,100
So maybe for this episode let's 
take a scenario where there's a 

187
00:09:44,108 --> 00:09:47,100
new tech executive who is 
joining a new company. 

188
00:09:47,100 --> 00:09:50,000
Whether it's an Enterprise on 
Startup, maybe you can help to 

189
00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:51,900
choose which one in terms of 
context. 

190
00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:55,500
So in the beginning of the book,
you mentioned about why the tech

191
00:09:55,500 --> 00:09:59,700
executive Understand why the 
company hires him or her, so 

192
00:09:59,700 --> 00:10:01,400
maybe you can tell us a little 
bit. 

193
00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,400
What do you mean by 
understanding this? 

194
00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:05,600
Why? 
Well, it might be a game 

195
00:10:05,600 --> 00:10:08,700
intuitive again. 
If you're a consultant, someone 

196
00:10:08,700 --> 00:10:09,900
approaches you and you might 
tell them. 

197
00:10:09,900 --> 00:10:12,500
You don't need me. 
It's all stemming from the same 

198
00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:14,800
point. 
Someone is hiring you, you're 

199
00:10:14,800 --> 00:10:17,300
gonna occupy a position that's 
going to be well, paid. 

200
00:10:17,300 --> 00:10:19,900
I'm hoping you're going to have 
a bunch of responsibility. 

201
00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:22,200
What would be considered a 
success? 

202
00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:25,500
So the same I think that for 
everyone listening right now 

203
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,700
when the stand That when we're 
starting a new project. 

204
00:10:28,700 --> 00:10:31,600
We have some sort of a success 
metric in mind. 

205
00:10:31,700 --> 00:10:33,900
How would we know that we've 
achieved success? 

206
00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:36,800
But the same needs to be applied
to your position. 

207
00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,100
How would you know that you're 
doing a good job? 

208
00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:43,700
And that usually means that your
boss and your colleagues get 

209
00:10:43,700 --> 00:10:45,300
what they need out of your 
position. 

210
00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:47,800
So you have to understand 
exactly what would make you 

211
00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:51,900
shine because without that you 
won't have objective. 

212
00:10:51,900 --> 00:10:55,400
So it's like creating your own. 
Okay, ours with the CEO or your 

213
00:10:55,400 --> 00:10:58,300
boss to That you're going to 
have the biggest impact that you

214
00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:00,400
can on the company and 
organization. 

215
00:11:00,900 --> 00:11:03,700
And you mentioned, there are 
four responsibilities in the 

216
00:11:03,700 --> 00:11:06,600
book in short is Leap. 
Leap2a. 

217
00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,100
Be, you can share a little bit 
of. 

218
00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:10,100
What do you mean by these four 
responsibilities? 

219
00:11:10,700 --> 00:11:13,400
Yeah, having talked to hundreds 
of Executives and I'm saying, 

220
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,800
Tech Executives, because there 
are a bunch of titles ctOS, 

221
00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:19,900
cio's, whatever. 
I do see that there are four 

222
00:11:19,900 --> 00:11:22,500
common responsibilities that 
people usually take and you 

223
00:11:22,500 --> 00:11:25,400
don't have to have all of them, 
but usually have at least one 

224
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,800
the First is leadership, of 
course, being an executive means

225
00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,200
that you have to be a leader 
just as this podcast talks about

226
00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,000
tech leadership in general. 
They are usually free archetypes

227
00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,200
on the tech executive. 
The E stands for evangelism, 

228
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:42,000
which is a outward-facing 
executive. 

229
00:11:42,100 --> 00:11:44,900
For example, if you're a 
company, that's b2d business to 

230
00:11:44,900 --> 00:11:47,900
develop heard that has a bunch 
of apis and sdks being 

231
00:11:47,900 --> 00:11:49,800
developed. 
You might need someone who's 

232
00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,000
very technical who is the face 
of the company? 

233
00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,800
Think of strike, for example, or
the Apple Executives, who talked

234
00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:59,100
at the The DC conference, that's
the evangelism part. 

235
00:11:59,300 --> 00:12:02,900
The a stands for architecture, 
which is the person who has 

236
00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:05,900
responsibility for architecture 
and innovation of the 

237
00:12:05,900 --> 00:12:07,800
engineering team of the R&D 
team. 

238
00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:12,800
That might be the standard CD o 
in air quotes, where it's the 

239
00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,400
person who knows a bunch of 
about deep Tech needs of the 

240
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:20,300
company who has Labs triangle 
sorts of experiments. 

241
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:24,500
And lastly, of course, there's 
pee for people who is in charge 

242
00:12:24,500 --> 00:12:27,700
of the actual processes. 
And the people delivering the 

243
00:12:27,700 --> 00:12:30,500
work often titled, the VP of 
engineering. 

244
00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,600
So you also mention in the book,
but the axioms of leadership. 

245
00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:36,900
There are few things that are 
very interesting for me. 

246
00:12:37,100 --> 00:12:40,300
The first question that I have 
is about executive leadership, 

247
00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:43,100
is a long-term thing, for 
example, in the company, right? 

248
00:12:43,100 --> 00:12:46,400
When you hire executive, 
sometimes it's for solving a 

249
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,800
short-term thing or sometimes to
gain something for short-term 

250
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:51,500
benefits. 
And sometimes, even the 

251
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:55,900
compensation or the remuneration
is tied to a short-term gain. 

252
00:12:56,300 --> 00:12:58,700
Maybe he can tell us more. 
Why do you think attack 

253
00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:00,900
executive should think in long 
term? 

254
00:13:01,600 --> 00:13:04,000
Yeah. 
Well, it's like the same 

255
00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,300
annoying answer you get from 
coders when you ask them. 

256
00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:08,500
How long should it take me to 
write an app and you're gonna 

257
00:13:08,500 --> 00:13:10,400
hear? 
It depends because there are a 

258
00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:12,500
bunch of things. 
And we always need to think 

259
00:13:12,500 --> 00:13:15,400
about balancing the different 
trade-offs that we have. 

260
00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,200
I believe that Executives and 
pretty much everyone in 

261
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:20,200
leadership. 
But especially if you're at the 

262
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:25,000
executive level, you have to 
have a very strong discipline to

263
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,700
always consider the The long 
term does that mean that you're 

264
00:13:27,700 --> 00:13:29,000
not going to look at the 
short-term? 

265
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:31,900
Of course, there will always be 
far as to put out. 

266
00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,100
And as you just said, sometimes 
there are things that have to be

267
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:37,300
handled. 
For example, quarter goals, and 

268
00:13:37,300 --> 00:13:38,900
stuff like that, that you have 
to focus on. 

269
00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,000
But if you're myopic, if you 
always look one, step ahead, you

270
00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:45,900
are doing the team at the 
surface because the team 

271
00:13:45,900 --> 00:13:48,700
deserves to have someone that's 
looking ahead and trying to 

272
00:13:48,700 --> 00:13:51,800
think how to best utilize them. 
Otherwise you working like a 

273
00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,100
greedy algorithm. 
It's not looking far ahead 

274
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:57,500
enough and therefore you might 
be Shaving some local maximum, 

275
00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,200
but not the real maximum. 
This team should be striving 

276
00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:02,200
for. 
So another thing that Tech 

277
00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,500
leaders should do is actually to
build what you call Tech Capital

278
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,200
maybe in the first place. 
What do you mean by Tech 

279
00:14:08,200 --> 00:14:09,900
capital? 
I have heard about technical 

280
00:14:09,900 --> 00:14:12,500
debt, but Tech capital is 
something that is new for me. 

281
00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:14,700
Yeah. 
So we've all heard about tech 

282
00:14:14,700 --> 00:14:16,800
that and that's my main issue 
with it. 

283
00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:20,800
I'm hearing people talk about it
all the time and are spending so

284
00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,400
much time doing that. 
And I always give the example if

285
00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,900
you had a friend that's obsessed
about their debt. 

286
00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:29,600
About maximizing their credit 
card about not drinking their 

287
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,200
cappuccino because they're 
trying to save those two dollars

288
00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:34,800
a day and stuff like that. 
Now we see that there's a limit 

289
00:14:34,800 --> 00:14:37,100
to how much you can gain by 
lowering your death. 

290
00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:41,400
But sometimes you can do things 
that would end up creating more 

291
00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:45,000
value to the company as a whole 
things that are not features. 

292
00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,800
Tech Capital isn't just another 
feature because a features like 

293
00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:51,800
the stick and you purchase a new
car and you start driving it. 

294
00:14:51,900 --> 00:14:54,500
It starts lowering in value and 
you have to maintain it 

295
00:14:54,500 --> 00:14:58,300
constantly the same applies. 
Most features Tech capital is 

296
00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:01,500
about creating something that 
enables things that weren't 

297
00:15:01,500 --> 00:15:03,600
possible before. 
I can give a bunch of examples. 

298
00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:07,600
For example, something I've seen
recently as when at a start-up 

299
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:10,500
I'm helping an engineer. 
Just happened to be talking to 

300
00:15:10,500 --> 00:15:13,700
some of the salespeople and saw 
that the way they were building 

301
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:16,300
the company's sales pipeline 
where the money is going to be 

302
00:15:16,300 --> 00:15:19,400
brought in, he saw that they 
were doing it in an ineffective 

303
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,900
way kind of guessing, and 
because this is a company that 

304
00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:24,700
sells based on geographic 
location. 

305
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:27,500
He did something. 
King said, you know, let me try 

306
00:15:27,500 --> 00:15:31,100
something and he pulled data 
from the municipality data 

307
00:15:31,100 --> 00:15:34,100
sources open data sources, you 
can find online and he created 

308
00:15:34,100 --> 00:15:37,400
this map tool that all of a 
sudden did some data science 

309
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:40,100
magic and I'm talking about two 
days pretty much for building 

310
00:15:40,100 --> 00:15:43,100
this he created this tool that 
all of a sudden clustered some 

311
00:15:43,100 --> 00:15:46,900
information help them see how 
things are changing in the city.

312
00:15:46,900 --> 00:15:50,300
There were currently targeting 
the whole says, organization 

313
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:52,500
started being driven by this 
tool. 

314
00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:55,400
So that's Tech Capital because 
he created something that then 

315
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,500
enables. 
Something no one else before 

316
00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:00,600
fight was possible. 
And those are the kind of stuff 

317
00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:03,100
that eventually end up paying 
long term. 

318
00:16:03,500 --> 00:16:06,900
So you mentioned that, this is 
different that features, right? 

319
00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:11,200
Because intact in engineering, 
mostly Business and Technology, 

320
00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:13,900
they always talk about, okay? 
How many features can we 

321
00:16:13,900 --> 00:16:15,500
deliver? 
How fast can it be? 

322
00:16:15,700 --> 00:16:18,800
But when we talk about this new 
capital, how do you actually 

323
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:21,100
influence business that 
actually, this is important? 

324
00:16:21,600 --> 00:16:24,700
I think that first of all, you 
do have to ensure that when you 

325
00:16:24,700 --> 00:16:27,500
have these initiatives, when You
working on Tech Capital? 

326
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,400
It has to actually be Capital 
some of the time with the team 

327
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,400
should be doing. 
Stuff. 

328
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,400
That's very technical, not Tech 
that necessarily some of it 

329
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:38,100
would be Tech that because we 
can't really get rid of it. 

330
00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,700
Sometimes you're going to learn 
about the new node js package or

331
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:44,400
stuff like that, but they also 
need to be creating stuff that 

332
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,900
matters for the business. 
Some more examples of tech 

333
00:16:46,900 --> 00:16:49,500
Capital. 
They can create tools that 

334
00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:52,800
enable people in marketing to 
execute on test faster without 

335
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,500
having to schedule stuff with 
engineering. 

336
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:59,100
I always See marketing, wanting 
to edit emails, or send another 

337
00:16:59,100 --> 00:17:02,200
email, and do another test, and 
they see that they have to 

338
00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,800
schedule it through product. 
So it ends up on the engineering

339
00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:07,000
roadmap. 
Bonita cycle times become 

340
00:17:07,099 --> 00:17:09,900
months. 
Once someone engineering creates

341
00:17:09,900 --> 00:17:13,200
the CMS, like tool that allows 
them to do stuff on their own, 

342
00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,400
not everything 80% of the work, 
that's like magic for them 

343
00:17:16,599 --> 00:17:18,200
marketing. 
All of a sudden can actually do 

344
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,200
stuff rapidly. 
So if you do Tech Capital, 

345
00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,300
that's actually genuinely 
helping the business enabling 

346
00:17:24,300 --> 00:17:25,900
other people in your 
organization. 

347
00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,000
And that's actually another one 
of those leadership axioms. 

348
00:17:29,100 --> 00:17:30,600
I call it quotas Without 
Borders. 

349
00:17:30,900 --> 00:17:33,600
You want to create Engineers, 
that help, not just the Direct 

350
00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:37,200
Customer after company, but 
everyone in the company, so you 

351
00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:39,800
might be hoping customer 
support, you might be creating 

352
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,600
tools for sales or marketing and
everyone else and sometimes even

353
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:47,800
tools for engineering because 
making Engineers be able to 

354
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,500
develop faster is also valuable.
So I like the term when you 

355
00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,000
mentioned coders Without Borders
from your examples, few things 

356
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:57,800
that we can listen or The 
engineering helping the 

357
00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:01,000
marketing or the sales team to 
build some tools that can help 

358
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:03,600
them to do more, self-service, 
tasks, or maybe some kind of 

359
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,300
automation that can help their 
lives better. 

360
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:08,700
But in the first place, 
normally, when we talk about 

361
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,100
engineering and business and 
especially coders, right? 

362
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:14,900
They don't talk to humans. 
But like they don't like talking

363
00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:17,200
to humans. 
How do you create this 

364
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:20,300
environment where the coders 
Without Borders actually Excel? 

365
00:18:20,900 --> 00:18:24,500
Well, we have to avoid the 
creation of silos. 

366
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:27,400
We have to avoid people. 
Ooh, Cajun, holding themselves 

367
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,200
and as Leaders, pigeonholing 
their organization. 

368
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,100
A part of that is what I call 
product Mastery. 

369
00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:36,400
There's a difference between 
having Engineers be just really 

370
00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:39,200
good Engineers. 
Technically, just a principal 

371
00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:41,900
engineer, who is great at their 
craft. 

372
00:18:41,900 --> 00:18:44,800
And then, there are product 
Engineers, who are people who 

373
00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:47,900
understand the actual product 
that the company is working on 

374
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:52,200
what the customers need, how the
business model Works, what 

375
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:55,300
attracts customers, what the 
competition is doing. 

376
00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:59,200
And what you Do differently in 
order to become better to gain a

377
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,100
Competitive Edge and having 
Engineers that actually 

378
00:19:02,100 --> 00:19:05,600
understand that and have that 
wider broader context of the 

379
00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:07,800
company. 
They are worth their weight in 

380
00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,000
gold when they achieve that. 
And the question is, how do you 

381
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,200
help your engineers have that 
kind of product Mastery? 

382
00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:17,900
If you're just a small tiny 
startup, it usually happens 

383
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:20,900
pretty much naturally because 
everything is so small that 

384
00:19:20,900 --> 00:19:22,600
people are aware of what's going
on. 

385
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,700
But as you become larger and 
especially at Sighs is it gets a

386
00:19:26,708 --> 00:19:29,200
lot harder and you have to do 
active work. 

387
00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:31,900
Just the other day. 
I was talking to a CDO who told 

388
00:19:31,900 --> 00:19:36,600
me that his Engineers started 
replacing the Netflix time with 

389
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,300
watching ganga. 
Yo, if you know what it is, it's

390
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:43,100
a tool that salespeople use for 
tracking their sales calls and 

391
00:19:43,100 --> 00:19:46,100
how they're operating and it 
actually records the sales calls

392
00:19:46,300 --> 00:19:48,400
and the engineer started 
listening to those, you know, 

393
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:52,000
like you're watching Netflix. 
They did that not because anyone

394
00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,900
ask them to but because they 
were interested and they gained 

395
00:19:54,900 --> 00:19:57,400
such a broad. 
Of what customers are talking 

396
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,700
about, what makes the product 
sell and what kind of 

397
00:20:00,700 --> 00:20:04,800
disadvantages customers are 
asking about that made them so 

398
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,200
much better at poking. 
Holes in the product roadmap. 

399
00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:11,200
They see something and product 
ask them for something, and you 

400
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,500
can be AGA. 
Are resolving machine. 

401
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:17,000
Product tells you, we need you 
to do X, and you just go and do 

402
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:19,700
X, or you can have the 
awareness. 

403
00:20:19,700 --> 00:20:23,800
So that when product comes up 
with an idea of, with a feature 

404
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:25,900
or a new product, you can poke 
holes. 

405
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,000
And so, you know, I think that 
the customers really care about 

406
00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,000
this, right? 
So maybe we can put away those 

407
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,600
extra 20% of the future that's 
going to cost us 50 percent of 

408
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,200
the work and see if data by 
itself is worth it. 

409
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,700
You can have those conversations
as a partner to product, which 

410
00:20:41,700 --> 00:20:45,100
is a goldmine for the company. 
I mean, all these things that we

411
00:20:45,100 --> 00:20:47,900
have discussed, it seems like if
you are new and you won't be 

412
00:20:47,900 --> 00:20:50,100
able to do it all in one go, 
right? 

413
00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:53,100
Like you still adjusting to the 
environment to the people 

414
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:55,900
inside, to the culture, but 
maybe tell us a little bit more.

415
00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:59,200
What will be a typical like 
first few months of your few 

416
00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:02,200
days for new tech executive 
coming to a company? 

417
00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:04,500
What should they do? 
Yeah, right. 

418
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,700
Now, I'm helping in advising a 
few people who are in their 

419
00:21:07,700 --> 00:21:11,300
first couple of months and their
executive role and I've done 

420
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:14,300
that so many times so far that I
realized that there's a pattern 

421
00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:17,300
that seems to be working. 
And I put that as Chapter 3 of 

422
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,700
the book, which is called your 
first 100 days in the company. 

423
00:21:20,700 --> 00:21:24,700
What do you do in the first 100 
days and often you have to 

424
00:21:24,700 --> 00:21:25,800
balance? 
Just what you said? 

425
00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:29,200
Earlier, you have to balance the
short term with the long term. 

426
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,000
So first of all, you have to do 
a bunch of juggling. 

427
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,000
You have all of those plates, 
you're spinning in the air. 

428
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,600
All the fires, you need to put 
out, and you have to do that. 

429
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,100
No matter how good your 
organization is being run. 

430
00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,500
You're going to always have some
things for emergencies that have

431
00:21:44,500 --> 00:21:46,700
to take care of. 
But as you're doing that, you 

432
00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:49,700
also have to be actively working
on building Rapport. 

433
00:21:49,700 --> 00:21:52,900
You have to establish 
relationships with your staff, 

434
00:21:52,900 --> 00:21:57,300
of course, but also with all of 
your peers With the VP of 

435
00:21:57,300 --> 00:22:00,800
product, of course, people like 
the VP of sales, the VP of 

436
00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,500
marketing, understanding, with 
the CEO, once understanding, how

437
00:22:04,500 --> 00:22:07,400
the product is built, gaining 
the product Mastery. 

438
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:11,300
And that's usually what people 
do in the first month or so, 

439
00:22:11,300 --> 00:22:15,000
they build rapport and they do 
the juggling both of those 

440
00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:19,200
provide, a bunch of input such 
as things that need to be taken 

441
00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:21,600
care of things that you need to 
do things that you need to 

442
00:22:21,608 --> 00:22:26,100
consider those go into what I 
call Triage and clearing the Fog

443
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:30,400
of Ward triage is, as you've 
seen in any medical show on TV. 

444
00:22:30,700 --> 00:22:35,000
You have to decide very rapidly 
for everything that comes on 

445
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,300
your plate. 
Every emergency that you see 

446
00:22:37,500 --> 00:22:39,300
every issue that someone tells 
you about. 

447
00:22:39,300 --> 00:22:41,400
You have to think and say, is 
this. 

448
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:43,600
Something that I need to be 
handling right now. 

449
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,300
Is this something that I need to
be handling for me? 

450
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:49,300
Or should I be delegating it to 
someone else in my team? 

451
00:22:49,500 --> 00:22:51,700
Is it just something that I 
don't know, maybe I should 

452
00:22:51,700 --> 00:22:54,500
report to the CEO. 
You have to do the triage and 

453
00:22:54,500 --> 00:22:55,800
you have to clear the fog of 
War. 

454
00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:58,800
You've ever played those 
strategic games online, you 

455
00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,600
start with a map. 
And most of it is fogged and you

456
00:23:01,608 --> 00:23:04,500
don't know everything. 
You just know your destination 

457
00:23:04,500 --> 00:23:07,600
where you need to get to, but 
you will only clear the fog, and

458
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,900
start seeing a learning how 
things look when you actually go

459
00:23:10,900 --> 00:23:12,400
there. 
When you actually talk to the 

460
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:15,900
people, when you realize, where 
you need to go in order to get 

461
00:23:15,900 --> 00:23:19,800
to your final objective. 
So, all of those inputs, should 

462
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,400
be pushing you to ask more 
questions to see what you should

463
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,800
be digging deeper who you should
be talking to. 

464
00:23:26,100 --> 00:23:29,800
And then after you've cleared 
some of the fog, and after 

465
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:32,800
you've triage the most important
stuff, you start laying your 

466
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,400
plan. 
Usually around two months. 

467
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,600
You should start acting on your 
plans. 

468
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:41,300
You should do stuff like create 
change initiative, decide 

469
00:23:41,300 --> 00:23:44,300
whether you want, for example, 
reorg, the company change. 

470
00:23:44,300 --> 00:23:47,000
How your Sprint's are being 
managed, how the roadmap is 

471
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,200
being managed, how the teams 
operate and talk within 

472
00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,800
themselves, or sorts of stuff 
and decide if you need to change

473
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:55,800
stuff in the personal self 
should. 

474
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,400
Be hiring more people. 
Should you be on a no working 

475
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,200
remotely or trying to move 
people to a hybrid model all 

476
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,000
sorts of stuff like that and 
that usually happens around the 

477
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,800
two months Mark when you should 
start doing that. 

478
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:11,300
And the reason I'm aiming for 
the two months Mark to start is 

479
00:24:11,300 --> 00:24:16,300
because I believe that as 
humans, we really, like not 

480
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:20,000
having things changed to 
rapidly, we like things being as

481
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,200
we are accustomed to it. 
There are windows where people 

482
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:26,000
are more receptive for change. 
For example, when someone One 

483
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:29,200
just starts at your company. 
You have this window of 

484
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,200
malleability when the person is 
open to new ways of doing stuff,

485
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,700
and around two months later. 
They become accustomed to stuff,

486
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:38,900
and they get used to the 
company, to get used to how 

487
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:40,600
things work, and the same 
applies. 

488
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,600
When you have a new executive in
your first 100 days. 

489
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,700
In the company, people are more 
receptive for change because the

490
00:24:46,700 --> 00:24:49,100
expected to happen at least 
somewhat. 

491
00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:51,300
So you should try and kick 
things off. 

492
00:24:51,300 --> 00:24:56,700
I'm around 23 months and then I 
think that once you Get off, you

493
00:24:56,700 --> 00:25:00,500
should make sure that, you know,
and everyone else know that it's

494
00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:04,800
not gonna be the one true way. 
Maybe you're trying a reordered 

495
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:07,800
but it doesn't mean that you've 
just realized what's the best 

496
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:10,900
way to do stuff. 
Just like encoding, we iterate, 

497
00:25:10,900 --> 00:25:13,100
and we try and we have 
experiments. 

498
00:25:13,300 --> 00:25:15,100
You might have to do the same at
the company. 

499
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:16,900
And now I'm not saying that 
we're going to refactor the 

500
00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:19,300
organization, every couple of 
weeks because you want to rename

501
00:25:19,300 --> 00:25:22,900
a method but you still need to 
have an organization that 

502
00:25:22,900 --> 00:25:25,700
understands it. 
You don't have all the answers. 

503
00:25:25,900 --> 00:25:29,400
Has the right answers right away
to you are also learning and 

504
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,100
adjusting the company's going to
change. 

505
00:25:31,100 --> 00:25:34,200
And that's a health effect. 
And also, it relates back to the

506
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:37,600
fog of War, thinking back my old
days, playing this strategy 

507
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,100
games, every time new fog, 
clears out. 

508
00:25:40,100 --> 00:25:42,600
You always find new things. 
Maybe new adventures, new 

509
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,000
challenges, new enemies Balzac 
and whatever. 

510
00:25:45,300 --> 00:25:47,900
So, I think it's the key message
to always keep iterating on 

511
00:25:47,900 --> 00:25:49,500
that. 
So the other thing that you 

512
00:25:49,500 --> 00:25:52,600
mentioned very important is 
actually to move Upstream. 

513
00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:55,800
So meaning that the tech 
executive needs to be involved. 

514
00:25:55,900 --> 00:25:59,100
More in decision-making or at 
least knows like where the 

515
00:25:59,100 --> 00:26:03,100
decisions for example, are being
elaborated on, like, few key 

516
00:26:03,100 --> 00:26:05,600
people in the companies that are
seem to have the power to make 

517
00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:08,100
decision. 
So why is it important for Tech 

518
00:26:08,100 --> 00:26:11,700
executive to try to navigate and
try to move Upstream to the 

519
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:15,000
decision making Point? 
Yeah, if you don't move 

520
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:18,100
Upstream, if you don't make sure
that you sit around the table 

521
00:26:18,100 --> 00:26:22,200
where decisions are being made, 
what will happen is that the CEO

522
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,700
will come up to you one day and 
say we need to get going. 

523
00:26:25,900 --> 00:26:28,800
Hang on X, and we have two weeks
to do that. 

524
00:26:28,900 --> 00:26:32,600
And you're like, why didn't 
anyone tell me about this like a

525
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,800
quarter ago, and that's what's 
going to happen. 

526
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:39,200
If you don't move Upstream, so 
you're at a higher point and are

527
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,100
able to look long term. 
Again, you know, everything's 

528
00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,600
connected here. 
You have to enable yourself to 

529
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,600
look long term and that's what 
moving Upstream is all about. 

530
00:26:46,700 --> 00:26:49,700
Think about it, this way. 
We all know that when we develop

531
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:55,600
code until that easier to fix an
issue to refactor our direction 

532
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,500
as Architecture step, when we're
defining the goal and it's a lot

533
00:26:59,500 --> 00:27:02,700
harder usually to make a big 
change later. 

534
00:27:02,700 --> 00:27:05,600
When you have sent the pull 
request in someone's making a 

535
00:27:05,608 --> 00:27:08,100
comment saying, oh, I think we 
should be using a whole 

536
00:27:08,100 --> 00:27:10,200
different design. 
You've already done everything. 

537
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:14,100
The same applies for these big 
strategic shifts. 

538
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:15,400
That company is going to go 
through. 

539
00:27:15,700 --> 00:27:18,600
If you're placed higher level, 
you can see where things are 

540
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,700
headed and just knowing is 
already very good. 

541
00:27:21,900 --> 00:27:24,500
But if you're there and if 
you're around the table and you 

542
00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:28,200
actually speak up, All of a 
sudden, you can actually help 

543
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:30,300
shift things towards the right 
direction. 

544
00:27:30,500 --> 00:27:33,800
Real examples that I'm seeing 
you talk with the company and 

545
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:37,900
you realize that you are likely 
going to be spreading to 

546
00:27:37,900 --> 00:27:40,200
multiple markets. 
Most of your current clients 

547
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:42,800
have been around the same time 
zone and you see that you're 

548
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:44,800
going to have people all over 
the globe. 

549
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,700
If you know about it, three 
months before, it's going to 

550
00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:50,100
happen before, you're going to 
have those clients because it's 

551
00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:52,500
on the road map. 
All of a sudden you can start 

552
00:27:52,500 --> 00:27:54,600
acting we with your team to be 
prepared for it. 

553
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,900
Maybe you're going to hire. 
People around the globe. 

554
00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,000
Maybe you're going to start 
changing your culture. 

555
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,000
So you have more remote people 
in different time. 

556
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:03,900
Zones in the team is already 
accustomed to it. 

557
00:28:03,900 --> 00:28:07,300
I don't know whatever, but if 
you are aware of it and you can 

558
00:28:07,300 --> 00:28:11,000
think about it ahead of time, 
you can actually call the shots 

559
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:12,700
or be pardoned calling the 
shots. 

560
00:28:12,900 --> 00:28:15,400
So they are most appropriate for
your team and your team can 

561
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,900
deliver. 
The biggest impact just a little

562
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:21,700
bit of a related discussion. 
So in Enterprise, typically, 

563
00:28:21,700 --> 00:28:24,800
they are already like, how was 
already established, right? 

564
00:28:24,900 --> 00:28:26,800
Maybe that's call it political. 
Equals power. 

565
00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:30,700
So how would a new person 
navigate this political power. 

566
00:28:30,700 --> 00:28:33,900
If you have experienced working 
with such like establish and the

567
00:28:33,900 --> 00:28:37,400
price before, how would these 
people put himself in the 

568
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,600
decision-making table? 
Yeah, so I'm not gonna say that.

569
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,500
It's going to be straightforward
at every different organization 

570
00:28:44,700 --> 00:28:47,500
was first of all, the shift to 
move, Upstream starts with 

571
00:28:47,500 --> 00:28:51,100
yourself. 
You have to realize that despite

572
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:54,100
Rumours saying with great power 
comes great responsibility and 

573
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:57,000
the opposite is also true. 
You're an executive and you have

574
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,000
great responsibility on a big 
team. 

575
00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:00,500
You should also have great 
power. 

576
00:29:00,700 --> 00:29:04,500
You should be available at those
higher ranks and see what's 

577
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,900
going on. 
Understand and have people 

578
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:09,800
regard you as a partner. 
So, it starts with that mind 

579
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:11,900
shift, understanding that you 
deserve that. 

580
00:29:12,100 --> 00:29:14,900
Not just you wanted politically 
you want to, because that's the 

581
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,800
right way of managing stuff. 
And then you have to find the 

582
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,700
ways to move up in Israel. 
We say hutzpah, because we are 

583
00:29:22,700 --> 00:29:25,400
okay with pushing ourselves 
where we think we should be. 

584
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:27,800
I'm finding it. 
The sometimes harder to hold my 

585
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,800
International clients. 
Understand that's a big part of 

586
00:29:30,808 --> 00:29:34,300
their role, but it is doable. 
For example, examples of hot 

587
00:29:34,300 --> 00:29:38,200
spot that I'm helping my clients
do is when we see that the end 

588
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,900
of the quarter is reaching and 
in around the corner and there 

589
00:29:41,900 --> 00:29:44,800
are no discussions that the 
executive is aware of about the 

590
00:29:44,800 --> 00:29:47,200
roadmap. 
I say, someone's talking about 

591
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:48,400
it. 
Who is it? 

592
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:49,800
And why aren't they inviting 
you? 

593
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,300
So open their calendars and see 
if they have any discussions 

594
00:29:53,300 --> 00:29:55,700
that you're going to ask to be 
invited to will go. 

595
00:29:55,900 --> 00:29:59,400
Over to the CEO and as hey, 
what's up, you have to take the 

596
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,600
initiative. 
Because sometimes, it's not, 

597
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:04,300
because it's even political 
power. 

598
00:30:04,500 --> 00:30:07,800
People are not thinking about 
the tech people as having that's

599
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,900
way of having the ability to sit
in the business meetings. 

600
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,200
Not because we can't do it. 
But because they have become 

601
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,800
accustomed to detect, people 
wanting to do Tech and not 

602
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:18,200
caring about the business 
enough. 

603
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,700
So you have to help educate them
and push yourself a bit. 

604
00:30:21,900 --> 00:30:25,100
It might be a bit uncomfortable 
in the beginning where you have 

605
00:30:25,100 --> 00:30:27,300
to Elbow you. 
Away, so you are in the meeting 

606
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:30,500
but it's going to happen and 
especially in this region where 

607
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:34,400
we Asians tend to be less 
aggressive in dealing with all 

608
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,200
this territory. 
So I think it's a good message 

609
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,500
and also depending on the 
culture I think as well because 

610
00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:43,900
if you try to push yourself up, 
but the rest are not into those 

611
00:30:43,900 --> 00:30:46,400
kind of a culture thing is going
to be a problem as well. 

612
00:30:46,700 --> 00:30:50,300
So any take on that, especially 
if you have work with Asian 

613
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:54,800
culture before I would say that 
it always has to start work 

614
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,100
again. 
Other person's interests and 

615
00:30:58,100 --> 00:31:01,200
what actually serves them best. 
You have to have a candid 

616
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:02,900
conversation. 
For example, if you're reporting

617
00:31:02,900 --> 00:31:05,900
to a CEO or if you're in a 
bigger Enterprise and you're a 

618
00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:09,600
VP, and there is an SVP or an 
EVP above you and you wanna take

619
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:12,800
part in some of the discussions.
You have to help them realize 

620
00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:14,800
what you're going to get from 
working with you. 

621
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:16,300
Do you know the acronym with 
him? 

622
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:19,200
What's in it for me? 
It's something that you always 

623
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,000
have to keep in mind also when 
working with your staff, but 

624
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,400
sometimes when working with your
colleagues and your boss, you 

625
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,100
have To see that whatever you're
doing has to also pay off for 

626
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,400
them because otherwise they're 
not going to do it when I'm 

627
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:35,300
talking to an executive that 
doesn't want to cooperate. 

628
00:31:35,300 --> 00:31:39,300
I'm trying to create a win-win. 
So if you come up and you say I 

629
00:31:39,308 --> 00:31:42,100
don't want to be there just 
because I want to spend more 

630
00:31:42,100 --> 00:31:43,800
time in meetings. 
No one wants that. 

631
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,000
I'm guessing. 
What I want to do is I want to 

632
00:31:46,008 --> 00:31:48,700
be aware of what's happening. 
Because you remember the last 

633
00:31:48,700 --> 00:31:51,800
time that we missed the deadline
because we realize something is 

634
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,400
too late. 
If I had known about it earlier.

635
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:55,600
I could have done something 
else. 

636
00:31:55,900 --> 00:31:59,000
So I just want to be take apart.
Make sure that I'm aware of 

637
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,700
stuff. 
Sometimes I'm saying, let's do a

638
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:04,900
prep meeting before so that no 
one feels threatened. 

639
00:32:05,100 --> 00:32:08,700
If you have talked before the 
strategy meeting and your boss 

640
00:32:08,700 --> 00:32:10,900
doesn't feel like you're going 
to say something that's going to

641
00:32:10,900 --> 00:32:13,400
add a bunch of work to don't 
want to do or stuff like that, 

642
00:32:13,500 --> 00:32:17,400
that can lower the stress. 
But really, if there's something

643
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:21,300
that's not straight forward is 
to position yourself in a place 

644
00:32:21,300 --> 00:32:24,500
that has political games already
happening. 

645
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,000
That's something that I I think 
is maybe the hardest part for 

646
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:30,800
techies because we really good 
when I'm talking about tech 

647
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,300
execs, really good at attacking 
but we're not good at executive 

648
00:32:34,500 --> 00:32:36,100
and sometimes you have to speak 
up. 

649
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,800
Sometimes you have to be a bit. 
I won't say rude or aggressive 

650
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:41,400
but you have to be more 
assertive. 

651
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:44,600
Otherwise people are not gonna 
just say come on in to the 

652
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,300
meeting by themselves. 
Sometimes you're gonna but other

653
00:32:47,300 --> 00:32:50,200
times you have to knock on the 
door by yourself, and it's not 

654
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,000
that bad, you're trying to do 
something that's good for the 

655
00:32:53,008 --> 00:32:55,300
company and you're not trying to
harm anyone. 

656
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:58,200
Totally makes sense. 
Speaking about meetings. 

657
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,100
I know that Executives normally 
need to spend a lot of times in 

658
00:33:01,100 --> 00:33:04,300
meetings, may be gathering 
contacts making decisions 

659
00:33:04,300 --> 00:33:07,200
understanding about other 
priorities from Business 

660
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:09,100
Marketing sales, whatever that 
is. 

661
00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:12,100
So that makes it even more 
challenging for a new tech 

662
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:14,300
Executives. 
Coming in, how to balance the 

663
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:16,500
time. 
Where should they spend time or 

664
00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:18,700
even by juggle between all these
priorities? 

665
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,200
So, I have my rule of thumb 
about how much time you should 

666
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,400
be spending on different things 
that you're doing. 

667
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,900
It's going to change. 
Depending on what you're doing 

668
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:29,800
right now. 
Sometimes you are lacking and 

669
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:32,500
some position. 
So if you need to be hiring a 

670
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,300
new director under you and in 
the meantime, you're filling in 

671
00:33:35,300 --> 00:33:38,800
for the director, you might have
more time doing regular work or 

672
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:42,500
helping people, but I do have 
some rule of thumb. 

673
00:33:42,700 --> 00:33:45,900
First of all, you should be 
spending a good amount of your 

674
00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:48,900
time in 11 meetings. 
Not just with your direct 

675
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:52,700
reports, but also with your 
colleagues and with skip level 

676
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:55,600
one or ones with the staff under
you, even if you're not there. 

677
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,900
Rex manager, because they think 
that you need to beginning that 

678
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:02,400
sort of insight and context from
people who are doing the work. 

679
00:34:02,700 --> 00:34:06,200
You should also be doing a good 
chunk of what I call management 

680
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,500
by walking around. 
Let's say about 10% of your 

681
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:12,600
time, a non-covered world where 
we can actually walk in offices.

682
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,400
It means Walking The Halls may 
be sitting a few hours a week in

683
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,400
the open space to see what 
people are working about. 

684
00:34:19,699 --> 00:34:22,500
Yeah, if there's something I 
really enjoy seeing is again 

685
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:25,100
think about the old world where 
we had people in the same room? 

686
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,000
You Can sometimes spot the 
debugging hosel, where you see 

687
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,400
someone sitting next to a laptop
and a bunch of Engineers around 

688
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,199
them, looking at the screen 
together? 

689
00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:37,000
Sometimes that means that, 
there's an outage sometimes. 

690
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,500
Just an interesting bug and when
you spot that you just start 

691
00:34:40,500 --> 00:34:44,100
listening and you can see how 
people are communicating, how 

692
00:34:44,100 --> 00:34:47,100
they are handling things. 
And you can take up a bunch of 

693
00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:49,199
information. 
Like, how are we handling 

694
00:34:49,199 --> 00:34:51,900
things? 
Do we have good processes and 

695
00:34:51,900 --> 00:34:55,600
guidelines for handling outages,
that sort of stuff things that 

696
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,000
Not going to see, for example, 
in a post-mortem because whoever

697
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:02,300
is in it, doing it might already
be used to the way that they're 

698
00:35:02,300 --> 00:35:04,700
doing stuff and they might not 
realize that they're missing 

699
00:35:04,700 --> 00:35:06,600
parts of it. 
So, management by walking 

700
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,400
around, is also a big part of 
it. 

701
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:12,900
I believe that there are also 
other things that can help you. 

702
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,900
For example, if you want to 
enable yourself to do the most, 

703
00:35:16,900 --> 00:35:19,300
I usually say something like, 
10% of your time. 

704
00:35:19,300 --> 00:35:22,900
Should be leadership blocks, 
which are your block time on 

705
00:35:22,900 --> 00:35:25,500
your calendar to think. 
And I know that sounds weird. 

706
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:28,600
Weird, but the analogy, I always
use is how when you're in the 

707
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,800
shower. 
You get all sorts of good ideas.

708
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,300
You probably can't take an 
hour-long shower in your office,

709
00:35:34,500 --> 00:35:38,000
but you can take the time to 
just focus on things and 

710
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,300
sometimes that time can be 
something. 

711
00:35:40,300 --> 00:35:43,800
Like, I want to think about the 
road map for the next quarter. 

712
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,100
Sometimes it can be stuff like 
investing in your own product 

713
00:35:47,100 --> 00:35:48,800
Mastery. 
Maybe you're going to watch some

714
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,800
gone. 
Yo, sales meetings. 

715
00:35:50,900 --> 00:35:54,000
Maybe you're gonna see what 
customers are saying on Twitter,

716
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:58,200
whatever and sometimes Actually 
thinking about big problems. 

717
00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:02,100
How should you, for example, a 
structure, your team going 

718
00:36:02,100 --> 00:36:03,600
forward? 
That's kind of time. 

719
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,400
You have to work on your 
organization, not just in it and

720
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,300
then there are also a bunch of 
other things. 

721
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:12,000
You should be doing. 
You have your emails, you have 

722
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,900
to be answering. 
You have a bunch of time on 

723
00:36:13,900 --> 00:36:17,300
hiring because you have to be 
interviewing people have to be 

724
00:36:17,300 --> 00:36:19,800
putting out fires. 
You have this bar for at least 

725
00:36:19,800 --> 00:36:22,400
10% of your time that you're 
going to do stuff that weren't 

726
00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:26,600
planned after all of that. 
I usually aim for around. 25% of

727
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,900
your time. 
In other meetings, not just one 

728
00:36:28,900 --> 00:36:32,700
on ones and not your personal 
time doing leadership locks but 

729
00:36:32,700 --> 00:36:35,400
meetings for work. 
And if you see that you have 

730
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,200
more than that, you might need 
to be changing things. 

731
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:42,300
You might need to be delegating 
more stuff to other people, you 

732
00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:44,500
might need to. 
For example, I call this 

733
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,500
defragging. 
Like you used to do on your old 

734
00:36:46,500 --> 00:36:49,200
Windows computers. 
Let's see if you can make some 

735
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,000
of the recurring meetings 
shorter so that they're not one 

736
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,100
hour or 45 minutes. 
Maybe you can make it so that 

737
00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:57,000
they are not. 
And each week but one, every two

738
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,400
weeks that sort of stuff, so you
can make more time for yourself.

739
00:37:00,900 --> 00:37:03,900
I like the way you use some of 
these geeky terms to explain 

740
00:37:03,900 --> 00:37:06,700
what the executives. 
I think it's really refreshing. 

741
00:37:06,900 --> 00:37:09,800
So I'm very interested about 
this thing called management by 

742
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,700
walking around during this 
covid. 

743
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,200
How would Executives do such 
thing? 

744
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:18,300
Yeah, so it's definitely harder 
in a remote world, but I've been

745
00:37:18,300 --> 00:37:20,300
helping my clients try, all 
sorts of stuff. 

746
00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:23,600
For example, you should be 
joining all sorts of slack 

747
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:25,000
channels that you're not usually
on. 

748
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,900
Not because you should be 
reading each and every single 

749
00:37:27,900 --> 00:37:30,600
message. 
But if you are in all the 

750
00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:33,700
different, even the spammy 
channels where people are 

751
00:37:33,700 --> 00:37:36,900
sending memes or sending TV 
shows and stuff like that. 

752
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,400
You can see what people are 
talking about. 

753
00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:42,800
What's the culture, like who are
more active at different hours 

754
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,800
of the day so you can see maybe 
you can notice that someone 

755
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,300
might be having issues because 
they're working late at night 

756
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,600
stuff like that. 
You can also try and inject 

757
00:37:51,600 --> 00:37:53,700
yourself into some interesting 
conversations. 

758
00:37:53,700 --> 00:37:55,500
You see how people are handling 
and outage on. 

759
00:37:55,700 --> 00:37:58,800
Line. 
And you can see that maybe if 

760
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,300
they would use a dashboard that 
they both can see at the same 

761
00:38:02,300 --> 00:38:03,300
time. 
It would help. 

762
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,800
So management by walking around 
online is sort of doing that. 

763
00:38:06,900 --> 00:38:10,700
Also, in our age, where a bunch 
of meetings are being recorded 

764
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:12,400
automatically. 
I always say that. 

765
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,500
Now, it's much easier to be a 
flying the room because you can 

766
00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,400
be a friend, a zoom. 
I also do it with a bunch of my 

767
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,700
clients, where we take some of 
the recorded meetings, maybe the

768
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:24,900
dailies, maybe Sprint planning, 
and retrospectives, and that 

769
00:38:24,900 --> 00:38:26,400
sort of stuff. 
You watch him. 

770
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,100
Sometimes if double speed to see
how things are going. 

771
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,800
Are we seeing noticing some 
interesting stuff about how 

772
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:35,300
people are interacting. 
Do you see that? 

773
00:38:35,300 --> 00:38:38,200
There are certain people who 
never actually speak up in 

774
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:40,700
meetings. 
You see others hogging the 

775
00:38:40,700 --> 00:38:44,500
meetings that sort of stuff. 
It's more time consuming and 

776
00:38:44,500 --> 00:38:47,700
it's not as fun as being in the 
physical office, but it's 

777
00:38:47,700 --> 00:38:50,700
something that actually can help
and provide you with bigger 

778
00:38:50,700 --> 00:38:53,900
context of how things are doing.
If you're not doing it yet. 

779
00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:57,900
I'll always recommend doing the 
He's q&a's, ask me any things 

780
00:38:57,900 --> 00:38:59,600
with not your entire 
organization. 

781
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:03,200
If you're too big, if you have 
more than a few dozen Engineers,

782
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:06,300
you might not get a lot of value
from doing it with everyone 

783
00:39:06,300 --> 00:39:09,400
together, because it's not as 
intimate, but it's a ranked team

784
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,100
level kind of thing or a couple 
of teams or it's you. 

785
00:39:12,100 --> 00:39:15,900
And a dozen people that might be
very very helpful and not just 

786
00:39:15,900 --> 00:39:18,400
for you but also for them and it
helps them see that you're 

787
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:20,900
involved, that you're there. 
If there's something that you 

788
00:39:20,900 --> 00:39:23,400
get from management by walking 
around physically is that you 

789
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,700
see that someone cares. 
The manager actually walks. 

790
00:39:26,700 --> 00:39:30,000
The Halls is present, is there 
for you to ask them something, 

791
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,400
as they walk past you and you 
don't have to create the same 

792
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,700
sort of platform for your people
online. 

793
00:39:36,300 --> 00:39:39,300
Wow, so many great tips. 
I hope all of you listeners can 

794
00:39:39,300 --> 00:39:42,400
try out some of these during 
this working from home, working 

795
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:43,300
remotely. 
Or so. 

796
00:39:43,300 --> 00:39:46,600
We miss that kind of connection 
with individuals or also missing

797
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,500
this kind of huddle where people
crammed together, looking at 

798
00:39:49,500 --> 00:39:52,200
some problems together. 
So, I think that some of these 

799
00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:55,000
hacks during this remote work 
and working from home. 

800
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,800
I think we Give it a try and 
hopefully it can gain more 

801
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,000
context from the team. 
Speaking of the next thing which

802
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,300
is about creating impact. 
Let's say, after 23 months in 

803
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:05,900
the world. 
You start to come up with a 

804
00:40:05,908 --> 00:40:09,900
plan, you start executing stuff.
How do you think an executive 

805
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,100
attack executive should make an 
impact? 

806
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:15,100
Is there any strategy? 
How should they think about 

807
00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:17,200
making an impact? 
Is that things to focus on? 

808
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:20,600
Yeah. 
So impact is a big topic, but 

809
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,600
first of all, you have to start 
again with thinking about what's

810
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:25,400
going to move the needle for the
business. 

811
00:40:25,700 --> 00:40:29,300
What actually matters as an 
executive, your product is no 

812
00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:33,300
longer, the actual Tech, what 
the team is delivering, but your

813
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:35,900
product, the team, you have to 
invest in them. 

814
00:40:35,900 --> 00:40:39,000
You have to help them grow. 
Your iterations are iterations 

815
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:41,900
on that team for enabling 
impact. 

816
00:40:41,900 --> 00:40:45,000
You have to create the team 
that's oriented around that 

817
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,800
impact. 
So for example, I've mentioned, 

818
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,500
okay hours earlier. 
You should think about ways to 

819
00:40:51,500 --> 00:40:54,900
create a connection, a direct 
connection between what your 

820
00:40:54,900 --> 00:40:57,000
team is doing. 
In the impact, it's going to 

821
00:40:57,000 --> 00:41:00,200
have on the business. 
So I'm a bunch of companies. 

822
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:03,800
Nowadays are trying things that 
all around the Spotify model 

823
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:07,600
where you are working in squads.
Each quad is end-to-end and you 

824
00:41:07,607 --> 00:41:09,500
can do things and Charlie on 
your own. 

825
00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:12,900
You don't have to depend on 
other squads that sort of cross.

826
00:41:12,900 --> 00:41:16,500
Functional team usually allows 
for more of an impact driven 

827
00:41:16,500 --> 00:41:20,300
mindset because you can then 
take an objective, put that 

828
00:41:20,300 --> 00:41:23,400
objective assign it to a squat 
and then the squad has to do 

829
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,400
that. 
They know that they all say 

830
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:28,600
Succeed together or fail 
together when they have this 

831
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:32,000
one, big goal that they are. 
After you can say, if there's 

832
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:34,900
something I hate seeing is the 
back in person saying my API is 

833
00:41:34,900 --> 00:41:36,200
working. 
It's ready, two weeks. 

834
00:41:36,200 --> 00:41:38,600
Now, it's the front and who 
aren't ready by now. 

835
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:40,600
No one cares. 
You're not going to call a 

836
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,500
client. 
Like the API is ready with just 

837
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:44,600
still working on the front, and 
no one cares about that. 

838
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:48,800
So you have to work together and
creating these quads, who get 

839
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,800
these impact driven goals. 
You have an objective that 

840
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:55,400
allows them to create their own 
impact is amazing. 

841
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,800
For example, when I say an 
impact driven goal, let's say 

842
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,000
that you're the manager in 
charge of one of these squads if

843
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,600
I provide you with a goal with 
that's very specifically 

844
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:07,500
defined. 
I'm telling you exactly how to 

845
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:09,300
implement something. 
I'm telling you exactly what to 

846
00:42:09,300 --> 00:42:11,800
do. 
You are not actually empowered. 

847
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:13,300
I'm not empowering you to do 
anything. 

848
00:42:13,300 --> 00:42:14,800
I'm just telling you exactly 
what to do. 

849
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,700
Unfortunate you to be a gr. 
Resolving machine, but if on the

850
00:42:18,700 --> 00:42:22,800
other hand I give you a goal, 
you are in charge of this part 

851
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,400
of the business of this part of 
the product. 

852
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:28,600
And we want to see the lifetime 
value of the customers. 

853
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:32,900
Using this go up by 5% or we 
want to see turn go down a bit 

854
00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:35,700
or stuff like that. 
Then that engineering manager 

855
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,900
with their product manager can 
work together and the whole team

856
00:42:38,900 --> 00:42:41,800
can work together and decide 
what they need to be doing and 

857
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,600
that's truly empowering people. 
I really like the book empowered

858
00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:49,200
by Marty Kagan and he has other 
books like inspired that are 

859
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,700
really about this way. 
That product should be working 

860
00:42:52,700 --> 00:42:55,500
and being developed in highly 
successful. 

861
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,800
Teams, I like the way you 
mentioned by all these impact 

862
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,600
driven goals or impact Focus 
organization. 

863
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,400
So sometimes a little bit 
tricky. 

864
00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:06,600
When we talk about engineers. 
They are very Savvy with 

865
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,500
technology. 
All these Frameworks languages 

866
00:43:09,500 --> 00:43:13,600
infrastructure, but somehow 
missed looking at those business

867
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:16,500
impact or okay. 
Are sometimes and I like the way

868
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:19,500
that you mentioned that the tech
Executives to play as a bridge, 

869
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,000
but I know changing the mindset 
is quite tricky. 

870
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,800
What do you think are some of 
the technical things that an 

871
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,200
executive? 
Could do in order to change this

872
00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:30,400
kind of mindset for engineers. 
I say that. 

873
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,000
First of all, they have to have 
the product Master. 

874
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,200
You have to help them get the 
product Mastery because then 

875
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:39,300
they actually can think of other
things that are not just attack.

876
00:43:39,500 --> 00:43:42,900
The reason we go forward, the 
texture of that, we obsess over 

877
00:43:42,900 --> 00:43:45,700
detected, where you go over 
those kinds of stuff is because 

878
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:47,700
for us, it's the path of least 
resistance. 

879
00:43:47,900 --> 00:43:51,100
We know how to do that. 
We have all the ideas running 

880
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:54,000
around, we have the expertise. 
So that's the natural thing for 

881
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:56,200
you to do. 
Once you have Product master. 

882
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,500
In once you understand the 
impact, your things have on the 

883
00:43:59,500 --> 00:44:02,900
company on the customers. 
It's natural for you to start 

884
00:44:02,900 --> 00:44:05,100
thinking about that. 
And, you know, it won't happen 

885
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:09,100
for 100% of your engineers, but 
enough start thinking that way, 

886
00:44:09,100 --> 00:44:12,300
which slowly gains more and more
momentum, which is great. 

887
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:16,800
And another way is to slowly, 
but surely celebrate the right 

888
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,900
kinds of things. 
So you have to help people see 

889
00:44:19,900 --> 00:44:22,400
what actually matters. 
For example. 

890
00:44:22,500 --> 00:44:25,400
I always tell my clients, you 
shouldn't just celebrate when we

891
00:44:25,500 --> 00:44:27,900
We reached everything that we 
had in the roadmap. 

892
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,000
If three years in a row every 
Sprint, the team is delivering a

893
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,000
hundred percent of what they had
in the spring plans. 

894
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,100
I know that they have no stretch
goals. 

895
00:44:35,100 --> 00:44:38,300
I know that they're probably 
have way too many buffers being 

896
00:44:38,300 --> 00:44:41,100
put in place so that they can 
always reach those goals. 

897
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:44,000
On the other hand, if I have a 
team that's delivering. 

898
00:44:44,100 --> 00:44:47,300
Let's say 80% of the time to 
deliver everything but once in a

899
00:44:47,308 --> 00:44:50,700
while to take on the stretch 
goal and sometimes they miss it.

900
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,900
That's the kind of team of a 
squad. 

901
00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:55,300
That actually might be pushing 
the company fast. 

902
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,300
Forward because they take on 
some risks from time to time. 

903
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,500
You can't be, you know, we can 
put all of our money and 

904
00:45:01,500 --> 00:45:04,100
Bitcoin, but maybe we need to 
put some of it. 

905
00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:07,000
That's the kind of thinking. 
And I think, when you say about 

906
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:10,100
stretch goals, sometimes this 
relates back to things Beyond, 

907
00:45:10,100 --> 00:45:12,800
just the tasks for the features 
that the business is asking, 

908
00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:14,400
right. 
It relates back to the tech 

909
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,300
Capital that you mentioned a 
relation back to our ND, you 

910
00:45:17,300 --> 00:45:19,600
know, researching about new 
stuff in you either like, 

911
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,400
platform, tools and 
Technologies. 

912
00:45:21,700 --> 00:45:26,200
Where do you see RND in play for
Tech Executives to Focus on. 

913
00:45:26,700 --> 00:45:31,200
Yeah, so I say that we've become
accustomed to already being 

914
00:45:31,200 --> 00:45:35,000
treated as a cost center and 
something that the business has 

915
00:45:35,100 --> 00:45:37,800
and they have to pay for it. 
But it only produces costs. 

916
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:39,500
It doesn't produce money. 
Right? 

917
00:45:39,700 --> 00:45:43,300
Sales are in charge of actually 
bringing in money to the company

918
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:47,600
marketing, help find prospects. 
But Rd, we just need them 

919
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:49,900
because we need the code, but 
they don't actually generate 

920
00:45:49,900 --> 00:45:51,200
money. 
That's the kind of thinking, 

921
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,300
it's a cost center and I say 
that we need to transition our 

922
00:45:54,300 --> 00:45:57,300
thinking to become. 
An innovation Center where we 

923
00:45:57,300 --> 00:46:00,400
can create. 
Such examples are like the tech 

924
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:03,900
Capital example use earlier 
about a tool that helps the 

925
00:46:03,900 --> 00:46:07,400
sales people create a better 
pipeline, or another example, 

926
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,900
would be creating these 
abilities for people to iterate 

927
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:13,800
faster. 
Like, I talked about emails from

928
00:46:13,800 --> 00:46:17,200
marketing, that sort of stuff, 
those are innovations that 

929
00:46:17,300 --> 00:46:21,500
genuinely help the company make 
money faster, generally help the

930
00:46:21,500 --> 00:46:24,500
company iterate on its product 
Market, fit faster. 

931
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:28,700
That's the And of innovations 
that sentence we need sometimes.

932
00:46:28,700 --> 00:46:32,400
Innovation is very technical. 
You can create a competitive 

933
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,800
Advantage for a company. 
That's purely Technical. 

934
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:38,200
And that's also Tech capital. 
For example, I was eating lunch 

935
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,800
yesterday with a couple of 
Engineers who are maybe some of 

936
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,100
the brightest Engineers are 
working with. 

937
00:46:43,100 --> 00:46:47,300
They were working at this AI 
medical startup and they found a

938
00:46:47,300 --> 00:46:52,600
way to put some sort of medical 
device mapping viewer Inside a 

939
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,300
Mobile app. 
Something that no one has ever 

940
00:46:54,300 --> 00:46:57,300
done prior. 
Something that filled that point

941
00:46:57,300 --> 00:47:00,700
you have to use very heavy and 
costly workstations. 

942
00:47:00,700 --> 00:47:04,100
That had these special gpus only
to use that. 

943
00:47:04,100 --> 00:47:06,800
So, it's especially doctors had 
those in their offices and they 

944
00:47:06,808 --> 00:47:09,400
had to use those in their 
office, next to the desk. 

945
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:13,200
We had to go there and see that 
those two Engineers found a way 

946
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:17,400
to do that. 80% of what was 
needed on mobile and that just 

947
00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:22,000
helped us Company sell so much. 
Because those doctor said now I 

948
00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,200
can do it right from the table 
of the exams. 

949
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,400
Next. 
To the patient. 

950
00:47:26,400 --> 00:47:29,100
I can do it everywhere. 
I can check it when I get the 

951
00:47:29,100 --> 00:47:30,700
update that the data has been 
updated. 

952
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:33,200
I can check it no matter where I
am in the clinic. 

953
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,700
You don't have to go to my room 
and see it and that was an 

954
00:47:36,700 --> 00:47:39,600
enabler and that's another 
example of tech capital and how 

955
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,500
you create an R&D team. 
That's an innovation Center, 

956
00:47:42,500 --> 00:47:44,900
that actually brings in new ways
of doing stuff. 

957
00:47:45,100 --> 00:47:48,800
And when they started doing that
viewer, they didn't know that it

958
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:50,900
was possible. 
The just had an idea and said, 

959
00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:53,300
let's try to create an 
innovation Center. 

960
00:47:53,300 --> 00:47:55,700
You have to create the space for
Innovation you have Great. 

961
00:47:55,700 --> 00:47:58,300
The space to fail. 
Sometimes they might have 

962
00:47:58,300 --> 00:48:00,700
invested two days and have 
nothing to show for it. 

963
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:04,500
But if you don't allow them to 
try from time to time, you will 

964
00:48:04,500 --> 00:48:07,700
have zero Innovation, right? 
People would just look at again,

965
00:48:07,700 --> 00:48:09,400
the Jura dashboard and do 
whatever. 

966
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,100
G ra says, they need to be doing
today. 

967
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:15,500
I think maybe famously this 
concept, like Innovation. 20% 

968
00:48:15,500 --> 00:48:19,000
kind of rule from Google, right?
Is it how you also see it in 

969
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:21,200
some other companies, how they 
introduced. 

970
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,700
This. 
RNG is a 20% rule or some kind 

971
00:48:23,700 --> 00:48:26,900
of effect on maybe can Share a 
little bit from your experience 

972
00:48:26,900 --> 00:48:30,500
Consulting, different companies.
I actually have so much to say 

973
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:32,800
about how you create time for 
Innovation. 

974
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:36,500
And I think that the 20% time 
that people know from Google 

975
00:48:36,500 --> 00:48:39,500
isn't good enough. 
I advise people to do something 

976
00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:43,100
that I call intermissions, some 
companies, call it, sabbaticals 

977
00:48:43,100 --> 00:48:45,300
for something, that's similar, 
for example. 

978
00:48:45,300 --> 00:48:48,100
Base camp have been talking 
about their sabbaticals, which 

979
00:48:48,100 --> 00:48:51,900
is every few Sprints. 
Let's say every six, seven, 

980
00:48:51,900 --> 00:48:53,200
eight weeks, something like 
that. 

981
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:55,300
You have a week. 
That's an intermission. 

982
00:48:55,500 --> 00:48:59,000
Nor sabbatical weather team is 
in charge of doing what they 

983
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,600
want. 
I revered that. 

984
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:04,300
It's not just another hackathon 
because hackathons too often end

985
00:49:04,300 --> 00:49:07,000
up just being, we're trying fun 
stuff and it doesn't have any 

986
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:08,800
actual impact. 
I would rather that 

987
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,300
intermissions are actually about
thinking sometimes it's about 

988
00:49:12,300 --> 00:49:14,600
tected. 
Sometimes it's about creating 

989
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,900
Tech Capital. 
Sometimes it's about learning 

990
00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:20,000
something new but you need to be
thinking about the impact that 

991
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,200
it has. 
So that let's say over a year. 

992
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:25,600
You have some substantial Tech 
capital gain from those 

993
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,800
intermissions and to create the 
time for it, the difference 

994
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,800
between an intermission were an 
entire Squad is working together

995
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:35,700
on something and 20% time. 
Is that 20% time is I decided 

996
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:37,500
I'm going to do it on Monday. 
You're going to do it on 

997
00:49:37,500 --> 00:49:39,700
Tuesday. 
We're not working together as a 

998
00:49:39,700 --> 00:49:41,300
team. 
And so our Leverage is very 

999
00:49:41,300 --> 00:49:43,500
fragmented. 
We don't gain momentum. 

1000
00:49:43,700 --> 00:49:46,500
If you have a whole week to work
with your team on something you 

1001
00:49:46,500 --> 00:49:49,800
can gain so much and I'm 
actually seeing a trend right 

1002
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,400
now where some companies are 
implementing intermissions, are 

1003
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,100
also integrating all sorts of 
Code or no code tools. 

1004
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,000
So what you get done in the day 
is, like, what you would get 

1005
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,100
done in a week. 
Of course, you can use these 

1006
00:50:04,100 --> 00:50:06,500
tools for everything and it's 
not a replacement for all of 

1007
00:50:06,500 --> 00:50:08,800
your production code. 
But if you want to create a 

1008
00:50:08,800 --> 00:50:12,000
tool, a back office tool for the
salespeople or you want to 

1009
00:50:12,008 --> 00:50:15,300
create a simple user interface 
for editing emails, stuff like 

1010
00:50:15,300 --> 00:50:17,600
that. 
If you use these tools, you can 

1011
00:50:17,600 --> 00:50:19,800
save so much time and a week of 
your time. 

1012
00:50:19,900 --> 00:50:21,600
Going back to the code is 
Without Borders. 

1013
00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:26,600
Think how valuable how enabling 
a week of a coders time can be 

1014
00:50:26,700 --> 00:50:28,500
for someone else in the 
organization. 

1015
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:32,100
And when that code is using low 
code or no code, they can get 

1016
00:50:32,100 --> 00:50:35,500
done in a day with the might get
done in a week and so a week of 

1017
00:50:35,508 --> 00:50:38,800
intermission can create so much 
innovation of the company and 

1018
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:42,100
that's what I'm driving for. 
I really like this intermission 

1019
00:50:42,100 --> 00:50:45,400
concept and we can see all these
new things that you put in this 

1020
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:47,200
episode. 
Who does Without Borders like 

1021
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:50,900
intermission all seem to play 
nicely along together and also 

1022
00:50:50,900 --> 00:50:52,600
don't forget. 
I mean like when you create this

1023
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,500
Tech Capital, it doesn't mean 
that it's only engineer who Do 

1024
00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:56,300
it. 
Sometimes. 

1025
00:50:56,300 --> 00:50:59,300
They can also teach the other 
division departments to actually

1026
00:50:59,300 --> 00:51:02,500
learn about this, local no code,
for example, and maybe they can,

1027
00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:05,300
in fact, create more of it by 
themselves, which is a 

1028
00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:08,400
multiplier effect moving to the 
next topic which is about 

1029
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:12,100
organizational structure. 
I know that I've seen one good 

1030
00:51:12,100 --> 00:51:14,500
discussion point about 
organization depth. 

1031
00:51:14,500 --> 00:51:16,300
Again. 
This is a New Concept, right? 

1032
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,500
I know about tech that now I 
know what a capital, but now we 

1033
00:51:19,500 --> 00:51:21,500
are talking about organizational
debt. 

1034
00:51:21,500 --> 00:51:23,200
What do you mean by that? 
Yeah. 

1035
00:51:23,200 --> 00:51:26,800
So like you, we have code. 
Smells As an advisor, someone 

1036
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:28,300
who's working with dozens of 
companies. 

1037
00:51:28,500 --> 00:51:31,900
I have started noticing 
organizational, smells. 

1038
00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:35,300
Are you see the org chart? 
And I get this tingling feeling 

1039
00:51:35,300 --> 00:51:39,100
that something's off as your 
company grows and as things 

1040
00:51:39,100 --> 00:51:42,300
change, especially in startups, 
but also in Enterprises, you 

1041
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:46,000
gained some organizational debt 
because we can't refactor the 

1042
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,700
organization every week. 
We have someone leave the 

1043
00:51:48,700 --> 00:51:52,900
company and that leaves 18. 
That's a bit too small. 

1044
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:56,400
You're not gonna disband the 
team just because Someone left. 

1045
00:51:56,400 --> 00:52:00,400
But let's say a quarter to half 
past, you might have acquired 

1046
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,300
too much, organizational debt in
some areas of your organization.

1047
00:52:03,300 --> 00:52:04,700
And you need to be changing 
stuff. 

1048
00:52:04,900 --> 00:52:09,700
For example, one of the smells I
have, is what I call premature 

1049
00:52:09,700 --> 00:52:12,700
organization where I noticed 
that there are a bunch of teams 

1050
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:15,400
that are way too small. 
We have too many managers 

1051
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,000
managing not enough people or we
have a bunch of titles. 

1052
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,400
I say it's like going to a 
medieval show where everyone is 

1053
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,800
a sir and a knight and the Lord 
of that and the Duchess of that 

1054
00:52:25,900 --> 00:52:28,000
because she is the Duchess of 
the front end. 

1055
00:52:28,100 --> 00:52:31,500
He is the Duke of back-end and 
you start explaining the entire 

1056
00:52:31,500 --> 00:52:34,100
organization between those 
titles 14th. 

1057
00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:36,200
That's too small. 
That's exactly what I call 

1058
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:39,000
premature organization, which 
I'm guessing, you know, about 

1059
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,700
premature, optimization writing 
code. 

1060
00:52:40,900 --> 00:52:44,000
And that's the same when we 
start providing titles, too 

1061
00:52:44,000 --> 00:52:46,800
soon. 
When we create teams prematurely

1062
00:52:46,900 --> 00:52:49,200
we create something that's not 
healthy for your organization 

1063
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:50,800
and that's organizational. 
Debt. 

1064
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,300
And sometimes that means that we
need to unite a few teams 

1065
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:57,000
together. 
Make sure that we don't create 

1066
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,200
titles, that create a zero-sum 
game again. 

1067
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:03,000
Going to the example of usually 
it's not Duke and Duchess. 

1068
00:53:03,000 --> 00:53:06,500
It's Tech lead for backhand and 
the tech lead for Mobile in the 

1069
00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:09,600
tech lead for front-end. 
If you have those titles in a 

1070
00:53:09,607 --> 00:53:14,300
small organization, it means 
that let's say that you have the

1071
00:53:14,500 --> 00:53:16,700
back and Tech lead and two 
months later. 

1072
00:53:16,700 --> 00:53:20,800
You hire someone who is a 
world-class expert at back end. 

1073
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:24,700
Does that mean that they cannot 
voice their ideas that they 

1074
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:26,300
can't take? 
Initiatives, because there's 

1075
00:53:26,300 --> 00:53:30,800
already the tech lead. 
Know, if you avoid giving titles

1076
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,700
that split the team too soon. 
You can create the space and the

1077
00:53:34,700 --> 00:53:38,900
place for people to voice their 
ideas to take initiatives, to 

1078
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:41,000
push things forward, that sort 
of stuff. 

1079
00:53:41,500 --> 00:53:45,900
Any idea of Team size that you 
have, maybe rule of thumb, like 

1080
00:53:45,900 --> 00:53:49,900
best practices that we've seen, 
my rule of thumb is usually to 

1081
00:53:49,900 --> 00:53:53,300
aim for something around six to 
eight people in a team. 

1082
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:58,100
If you have a team, Of a team 
lead, that's relatedly new. 

1083
00:53:58,100 --> 00:54:01,100
You can aim for teams that are 
bit smaller tool, the team, 

1084
00:54:01,100 --> 00:54:04,800
leave getting some experience. 
If you have a team that maybe 

1085
00:54:04,800 --> 00:54:08,300
with a manager that's very 
experienced or that team itself 

1086
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:11,500
is very experienced. 
More towards senior, you can get

1087
00:54:11,500 --> 00:54:15,100
to bigger teams, but the rule of
thumb would be around six to 

1088
00:54:15,100 --> 00:54:17,600
eight people. 
I also see this may be a 

1089
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,700
relation with how you split 
microservices. 

1090
00:54:21,000 --> 00:54:23,800
Sometimes you want to split 
microservices, you split teams 

1091
00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,900
as well. 
We all know about Conway's law. 

1092
00:54:25,900 --> 00:54:27,900
Alright. 
So again, what is your take 

1093
00:54:27,900 --> 00:54:30,200
about this, you know, spitting 
microservice, splitting team. 

1094
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:32,400
Sometimes just spitting 
microservice, but the team stays

1095
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:34,500
the same. 
So what's your view on that? 

1096
00:54:34,900 --> 00:54:39,000
I think that again Conway's law 
is very true in many companies, 

1097
00:54:39,300 --> 00:54:42,700
but the problem is that, 
sometimes you end up needing to 

1098
00:54:42,700 --> 00:54:45,900
change the microservices because
product changes but you can't as

1099
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:47,600
easily refactor the team around 
it. 

1100
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:52,400
That is why I try and push 
toward teams where people don't 

1101
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:55,200
take charge for a specific 
microserver. 

1102
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:59,100
But take charge again for a 
specific business need. 

1103
00:54:59,300 --> 00:55:03,600
So it might be a business need 
to completely encapsulate some 

1104
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,100
microservices. 
But some microservices have a 

1105
00:55:06,100 --> 00:55:08,200
shared responsibility across 
several squads. 

1106
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:10,800
That's usually healthier because
it means that you have more 

1107
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:13,900
flexibility to change your micro
services and also, you have 

1108
00:55:13,900 --> 00:55:16,900
flexibility to change your 
squads with time as your 

1109
00:55:16,900 --> 00:55:20,300
objectives change without having
to start assigning different 

1110
00:55:20,300 --> 00:55:23,100
responsibilities and code 
ownerships to people when it 

1111
00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:25,200
comes to the actual 
microservice, you too. 

1112
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:29,300
And a lot of times about product
Mastery people in the team or 

1113
00:55:29,300 --> 00:55:31,800
even the executives themselves 
needs to know about the business

1114
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:33,700
needs to know about the product,
may be the problem. 

1115
00:55:33,700 --> 00:55:37,500
It tries to solve any other 
angles that you want them to 

1116
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:40,700
actually Master about in terms 
of this product Mastery. 

1117
00:55:41,300 --> 00:55:45,400
Yeah, when it comes to every 
Tech lead and I think that every

1118
00:55:45,400 --> 00:55:48,300
engineer, everyone who has some 
sort of a leadership role not 

1119
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:51,600
just Executives. 
We have to work hard to get that

1120
00:55:51,600 --> 00:55:55,200
Mastery to avoid that. 
We have to first know. 

1121
00:55:55,300 --> 00:55:58,200
Not go into the organizational 
pigeonholing we talked about 

1122
00:55:58,200 --> 00:56:01,000
earlier. 
You also have to stop stress, 

1123
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,100
technical mastered. 
If you promote only those people

1124
00:56:04,100 --> 00:56:07,000
in your team who are best 
technically, but not those who 

1125
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,300
have impact, you're going to 
create an incentive for the team

1126
00:56:10,300 --> 00:56:12,600
to focus on tackling not on the 
product. 

1127
00:56:12,700 --> 00:56:15,600
So you have to do those at first
in order to create the right 

1128
00:56:15,600 --> 00:56:17,600
kind of mindset and culture in 
the team. 

1129
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,000
And then to bootstrap, the 
product Mastery. 

1130
00:56:20,100 --> 00:56:23,900
You have to work hard in order 
to get your people to our quad 

1131
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:25,200
rub elbows. 
Half. 

1132
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:28,400
Action with the actual users 
with the actual business. 

1133
00:56:28,700 --> 00:56:34,600
So for example, have them be 
attending the QB ours, listen to

1134
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:39,500
sales calls on Kong or whatever 
tools you have, read up, what's 

1135
00:56:39,500 --> 00:56:42,300
going on in the market. 
When I work with my clients. 

1136
00:56:42,300 --> 00:56:45,800
I hope them set up this sort of 
a feed that the entire team can 

1137
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,000
see maybe it's a select channel 
that has related articles. 

1138
00:56:49,100 --> 00:56:51,500
Maybe it's an actual newsletter 
or something like that. 

1139
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:55,200
That the executives and the 
managers start sending links. 

1140
00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:58,800
Two articles in the Wall Street 
Journal and The Economist about 

1141
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:01,500
things that are related to the 
market, the company's working 

1142
00:57:01,500 --> 00:57:03,300
at. 
So people gain the broader 

1143
00:57:03,300 --> 00:57:06,800
perspective that sort of stuff, 
and lastly, to gain product 

1144
00:57:06,800 --> 00:57:08,900
Mastery. 
There's no way around it. 

1145
00:57:09,100 --> 00:57:13,000
You have to see how your clients
use the product and wire. 

1146
00:57:13,300 --> 00:57:17,500
So I for example recommend doing
shadowing for customer support 

1147
00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:19,800
or customer success. 
Let's say once a quarter or 

1148
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:23,500
something like that where people
have two three four hours with a

1149
00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:26,700
shadow customer support and How 
they're handling things. 

1150
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:29,200
How do your customers even 
report a problem? 

1151
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,400
When they see an issue, do they 
realize what the issue is? 

1152
00:57:32,700 --> 00:57:35,600
Do they know to say what they 
need change? 

1153
00:57:35,700 --> 00:57:38,800
Do they know? 
For example, when there's a bug,

1154
00:57:38,900 --> 00:57:42,900
can they say, I can't do X or 
can they say something more 

1155
00:57:42,900 --> 00:57:45,100
specific? 
Like I noticed that this feature

1156
00:57:45,100 --> 00:57:48,400
is not working, these sort of 
stuff that even just noticing 

1157
00:57:48,400 --> 00:57:50,300
the language. 
Our users are using, you can 

1158
00:57:50,300 --> 00:57:54,400
realize, oh, I might need to 
change the little alert bubble 

1159
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,700
that I have, because But all too
often product don't Define each 

1160
00:57:57,700 --> 00:58:00,400
and every little copy string 
that you have, that the users 

1161
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:04,200
are seeing and we make a bunch 
of micro decisions as engineers 

1162
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:06,100
and those have impact on our end
users. 

1163
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,400
So if you notice that you're 
using a word that your clients 

1164
00:58:09,400 --> 00:58:13,900
don't understand or use a term 
that correctly, if you see what 

1165
00:58:13,900 --> 00:58:16,500
customer success have to go 
through all of a sudden you have

1166
00:58:16,500 --> 00:58:20,300
a bunch of ideas and you realize
what people need how they act 

1167
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:22,800
and what they care about, right?
I mean, like some of these 

1168
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:25,200
examples, what I can think of 
quickly, is that some of the 

1169
00:58:25,300 --> 00:58:28,200
Cryptic or geeky error code, 
maybe like internal server 

1170
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,500
errors or whatever that is. 
So another thing that you 

1171
00:58:30,508 --> 00:58:33,700
mentioned as an example is to 
come up with product one-on-one.

1172
00:58:33,900 --> 00:58:37,000
And I think this is also 
sometimes Buffalo me or like, 

1173
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,200
when I talk with the engineer, 
for example, so what does your 

1174
00:58:39,207 --> 00:58:41,100
company do? 
How does they make money? 

1175
00:58:41,400 --> 00:58:44,100
Some of them really don't have 
any idea of maybe they can say, 

1176
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:46,700
oh, yeah, whatever that is 
advertised, but really, they 

1177
00:58:46,700 --> 00:58:50,100
don't understand the essence of 
how the company is making money 

1178
00:58:50,100 --> 00:58:53,200
or how the business is working. 
So, how do you create this 

1179
00:58:53,200 --> 00:58:54,000
product? 
101? 

1180
00:58:54,100 --> 00:58:57,200
Is it like you have Vicky you 
have a seminar or you have like,

1181
00:58:57,200 --> 00:59:00,300
onboarding kind of things. 
How do you create this knowledge

1182
00:59:00,300 --> 00:59:02,900
within everyone in the company 
to have understanding about the 

1183
00:59:02,900 --> 00:59:04,500
business and the product? 
Yeah. 

1184
00:59:04,500 --> 00:59:08,200
So I Define a bunch of topics 
that need to be in this product,

1185
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:10,300
101 short course that you have 
for people. 

1186
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,500
That means the basics of the 
business. 

1187
00:59:13,500 --> 00:59:15,400
Like, how does the business 
model work? 

1188
00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:18,100
If you're going to start up, you
have to share at least at some 

1189
00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:20,500
level, the finances of the 
company. 

1190
00:59:20,500 --> 00:59:23,900
When You're Expecting to raise 
another round, how your sales 

1191
00:59:23,900 --> 00:59:25,900
have been trending so far? 
That's Just have to throw 

1192
00:59:25,900 --> 00:59:28,700
Engineers need to be aware of, 
who are your competitors? 

1193
00:59:28,700 --> 00:59:30,200
What your competitors are 
working on. 

1194
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:32,600
What is the company's roadmap 
and vision? 

1195
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:35,100
How the market looks, how big is
the market? 

1196
00:59:35,300 --> 00:59:38,600
Who are the usual clients? 
Are they an Enterprise 

1197
00:59:38,600 --> 00:59:42,600
companies, b2c indifferent, 
demography, sort of stuff that 

1198
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:47,500
you need to understand and also 
understanding exactly how your 

1199
00:59:47,500 --> 00:59:50,100
users are handling with other 
products. 

1200
00:59:50,100 --> 00:59:53,500
So far people who haven't 
switched your product by now. 

1201
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,900
How does your data that look? 
Are they wasting hours? 

1202
00:59:56,900 --> 00:59:58,900
Is it just costing them a bit 
more money? 

1203
00:59:59,100 --> 01:00:01,900
Is it just not fun? 
What is the pain that you're 

1204
01:00:01,900 --> 01:00:05,000
solving? 
How do their lives become 

1205
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,800
better? 
Because they use your product 

1206
01:00:06,900 --> 01:00:08,300
that sort of stuff that you have
to know. 

1207
01:00:08,500 --> 01:00:11,600
In some of these are things that
are really changing. 

1208
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:13,900
You can do these ones right in a
week. 

1209
01:00:13,900 --> 01:00:17,700
He create a short article about 
it or video and be done, but 

1210
01:00:17,700 --> 01:00:20,100
other things are constantly 
changing, right? 

1211
01:00:20,100 --> 01:00:23,800
The business changes the trends 
that you have your roadmap. 

1212
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:25,700
Everything is alive. 
It's going to Change. 

1213
01:00:25,900 --> 01:00:28,600
So I will say that you have to 
make sure that your onboarding 

1214
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,000
is very fresh and updated and 
up-to-date. 

1215
01:00:31,100 --> 01:00:35,200
But also, I recommend having 
refreshes to these one-on-one 

1216
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:40,000
sessions like every quarter. 
So have a bunch of data sharing 

1217
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:42,500
happen across the company. 
It's not just for engineers. 

1218
01:00:42,700 --> 01:00:44,900
It's very valuable for everyone 
in the company. 

1219
01:00:44,900 --> 01:00:48,700
And as a tech Executives, you 
have to make sure that your 

1220
01:00:48,700 --> 01:00:51,900
colleagues understand the value 
and you all share your 

1221
01:00:51,900 --> 01:00:54,000
learnings, your roadmap, your 
vision. 

1222
01:00:54,100 --> 01:00:58,100
So people have a other context. 
It's sometimes a bit hard 

1223
01:00:58,100 --> 01:01:01,700
because some Engineers see and 
ever invite for a company-wide, 

1224
01:01:01,700 --> 01:01:03,200
whatever. 
And you're like, oh and other 

1225
01:01:03,200 --> 01:01:07,300
our wasted, it's our role as 
tech leads to make sure that our

1226
01:01:07,300 --> 01:01:09,800
people understand that, this 
isn't just something. 

1227
01:01:09,900 --> 01:01:12,900
It's not a hassle. 
It's what helps us actually 

1228
01:01:12,900 --> 01:01:16,600
become Force multipliers in the 
team, and deliver the best 

1229
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:18,900
impact. 
It helps us leverage our roles 

1230
01:01:18,900 --> 01:01:20,700
in the company by having their 
contacts. 

1231
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:23,900
So, you might not be feeling 
like sitting through another 

1232
01:01:23,900 --> 01:01:26,800
resume, but What's going to help
you long-term? 

1233
01:01:27,100 --> 01:01:30,600
I truly believe that I hate 
useless meetings just like the 

1234
01:01:30,600 --> 01:01:34,100
next guy but I still believe 
that some of these are crucial 

1235
01:01:34,200 --> 01:01:37,200
and we have to make sure that we
have them correctly and in a way

1236
01:01:37,200 --> 01:01:39,300
that helps everyone understand 
the context. 

1237
01:01:39,700 --> 01:01:42,800
So related to this, actually, I 
saw one of your popular blog 

1238
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,400
post, which is about less 
principal engineers and more 

1239
01:01:45,400 --> 01:01:48,100
product engineers. 
In fact, I had one recent 

1240
01:01:48,100 --> 01:01:51,100
episode also, the guy is talking
about data driven product 

1241
01:01:51,100 --> 01:01:53,600
engineer. 
So it's more specific to be more

1242
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:55,600
data-driven. 
So, why do you think Think we 

1243
01:01:55,600 --> 01:01:59,700
should maybe emphasize Less on 
principal Engineers or maybe 

1244
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:02,500
staff technical Engineers. 
Whatever you call it m to be 

1245
01:02:02,500 --> 01:02:05,200
more really like product 
engineer because this title is 

1246
01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,200
not common yet. 
I think in the industry. 

1247
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:10,700
So what kind of message that you
are trying to convey with your 

1248
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:12,500
blog post about this? 
Yeah. 

1249
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:15,400
So first of all, I will say that
I have no issue with having 

1250
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,500
career letters in your company 
where people Advance through the

1251
01:02:18,500 --> 01:02:20,600
ranks and become senior staff, 
principal. 

1252
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,700
I have no problem with that. 
But what I am saying, is that, 

1253
01:02:23,700 --> 01:02:27,100
when you're interviewing, When 
you are promoting people when 

1254
01:02:27,100 --> 01:02:29,900
you're deciding, how your 
cultural is going to look, make 

1255
01:02:29,900 --> 01:02:32,900
sure that those people that you 
have, and the people that you're

1256
01:02:32,900 --> 01:02:37,700
hiring, don't care solely about 
the tech Parts about principle. 

1257
01:02:37,700 --> 01:02:40,500
Meaning that I am the best 
person in the world when it 

1258
01:02:40,500 --> 01:02:44,400
comes to react native apps, but 
that, at least part of those 

1259
01:02:44,400 --> 01:02:47,500
promotions, part of the wider, 
responsibilities that you're 

1260
01:02:47,500 --> 01:02:49,300
expecting from. 
Your more senior. 

1261
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:52,200
People is that they have the 
product Vision. 

1262
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:56,100
And when I say product engineer,
is someone that Has broader 

1263
01:02:56,100 --> 01:03:00,300
shoulders in the team, someone 
that is capable of taking big 

1264
01:03:00,300 --> 01:03:03,900
tasks and also has enough 
contact so that when you 

1265
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:06,300
delegate something to that 
person that you directly maybe 

1266
01:03:06,300 --> 01:03:09,200
as VP of engineering. 
But even your managers in your 

1267
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:12,700
company when they have those 
product Engineers, those 

1268
01:03:12,700 --> 01:03:15,800
broad-shouldered Engineers, that
they can delegate a big feature 

1269
01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:19,100
to, and they will make sure that
they will get it done. 

1270
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,400
They will raise a flag. 
If something's going in the 

1271
01:03:22,408 --> 01:03:24,300
wrong direction. 
They will ask the right 

1272
01:03:24,300 --> 01:03:26,600
questions. 
Those are the kind of people 

1273
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,000
that you want and that's what 
you need to be stressing as your

1274
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,600
team becomes bigger and bigger. 
I like that. 

1275
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,800
You emphasize asking the right 
questions because sometimes what

1276
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,700
happens Engineers just saw the 
maybe G record. 

1277
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:38,900
Okay, this feature. 
Okay. 

1278
01:03:38,900 --> 01:03:41,300
Let me just do that. 
They don't really pass around 

1279
01:03:41,300 --> 01:03:44,600
like why you design it this way?
Why the right thing is this way,

1280
01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:46,600
or something like that? 
So I like the way that you 

1281
01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,300
emphasize asking the right 
questions. 

1282
01:03:48,600 --> 01:03:50,500
So I believe, unfortunately, due
to the time. 

1283
01:03:50,500 --> 01:03:52,200
I think we have to wrap up 
pretty soon. 

1284
01:03:52,400 --> 01:03:55,500
Thanks again for sharing all 
this, but before we wrap up, Up.

1285
01:03:55,500 --> 01:03:57,900
Normally I would ask all my 
guests to share their three 

1286
01:03:57,900 --> 01:04:00,900
technical leadership wisdom. 
So do you have the wisdom that 

1287
01:04:00,900 --> 01:04:02,600
you want to share with my 
listeners here? 

1288
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,400
Yeah. 
So we've covered some of these 

1289
01:04:05,400 --> 01:04:08,100
first of all, I think that we 
all need to embrace product 

1290
01:04:08,100 --> 01:04:10,400
Mastery. 
Not just, if you have some spare

1291
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:12,900
time, don't just read up. 
What's trending on. 

1292
01:04:12,900 --> 01:04:15,800
Hacker News, but also read up. 
What's happening in your market 

1293
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:18,200
and understanding your company 
and your business and 

1294
01:04:18,200 --> 01:04:20,100
everything. 
That's number one. 

1295
01:04:20,300 --> 01:04:24,600
Number two is accepting the code
AS Without Borders mentality, so

1296
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:28,100
you Just think about how you are
going to deliver. 

1297
01:04:28,100 --> 01:04:29,900
What's on the jira, but look 
around. 

1298
01:04:30,100 --> 01:04:31,800
Look at your colleagues in the 
company. 

1299
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:34,700
Look at different departments 
and think how you can create a 

1300
01:04:34,700 --> 01:04:37,400
capital that helps them. 
Not just create an Implement, 

1301
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:39,000
whatever feature you have any 
road map. 

1302
01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,600
And lastly, if I may plug the 
book one last time? 

1303
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:45,500
I think a good wisdom is to get 
a copy of my book. 

1304
01:04:46,000 --> 01:04:48,200
So I like that. 
You put the icing on the cake, 

1305
01:04:48,200 --> 01:04:50,000
right? 
I think I learned a lot as well 

1306
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:53,100
myself from this conversation. 
I think there are lots of wisdom

1307
01:04:53,100 --> 01:04:55,000
that you can learn from the 
third wisdom. 

1308
01:04:55,100 --> 01:04:58,100
Here, which is to get the book. 
It's called Tech executive 

1309
01:04:58,100 --> 01:05:00,500
operating system. 
Where can they find it? 

1310
01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:03,300
Is it like, on Amazon online? 
Yeah. 

1311
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:05,500
It's on Amazon. 
You can get it on paper backing 

1312
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:08,100
and Kendall. 
And if you want to get a sample 

1313
01:05:08,100 --> 01:05:11,300
chapter, you can go to Tech 
executive operating system.com 

1314
01:05:11,300 --> 01:05:13,300
and download a sample chapter. 
Great. 

1315
01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:14,900
I'll make sure to put it in the 
show notes. 

1316
01:05:15,200 --> 01:05:17,300
So, thanks again. 
I'll be for sharing all this. 

1317
01:05:17,500 --> 01:05:20,300
I'm sure many listeners, 
especially aspiring technique, 

1318
01:05:20,300 --> 01:05:23,200
Securities or Tech Executives 
themselves would benefit from 

1319
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:24,800
some of the advice that you 
gave. 

1320
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:27,100
Again, for your time. 
I wish you good luck with all 

1321
01:05:27,100 --> 01:05:29,600
your Consulting and make more 
people successful with their 

1322
01:05:29,600 --> 01:05:32,200
product Mastery and coders 
Without Borders and things like 

1323
01:05:32,200 --> 01:05:33,400
that. 
So, thanks, I'll be fine. 

1324
01:05:33,700 --> 01:05:35,000
Thank you, and you had a great 
time. 

1325
01:05:37,800 --> 01:05:41,200
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying right 

1326
01:05:41,200 --> 01:05:44,000
till the end. 
If you highly enjoyed, please 

1327
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,800
share it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

1328
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,600
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

1329
01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:52,700
And if you're new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

1330
01:05:52,700 --> 01:05:55,600
and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

1331
01:05:55,700 --> 01:05:59,500
It really, really helps me a lot
in order to grow these podcasts 

1332
01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:02,000
better. 
You can also find the full show 

1333
01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:05,600
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at technology. 

1334
01:06:05,600 --> 01:06:08,900
No, the death website. 
Including the full transcript 

1335
01:06:08,900 --> 01:06:12,500
interesting quotes, and links to
the resources and mentions from 

1336
01:06:12,500 --> 01:06:15,400
the conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1337
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,800
subscribe to the show's mailing 
list on package. 

1338
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:20,600
You know, that deaf to get 
notified for any future 

1339
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,900
episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1340
01:06:22,900 --> 01:06:25,300
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1341
01:06:25,500 --> 01:06:26,100
Goodbye.