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It should be aware that we are 

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only a leader because somebody's
following us. 

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So there is no leadership By 
Appointment really. 

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Because if nobody follows and 
they don't trust us. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya with 

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Robin. 
And you're listening to the 

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technology, you know, podcast 
the show where I'll be bringing 

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you the greatest technical 
leaders practitioners and 

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thought leaders in the industry 
to discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hello again, to all of you, my 
friends and my listeners. 

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Welcome to the Pepe Le Journal 
podcast, the show where you can 

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learn about technical leadership
and Excellence from my 

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00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:22,100
conversations with great 
thought, leaders in the tech 

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00:02:22,100 --> 00:02:25,700
industry and today is the 
episode number 106. 

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If this is your first time 
listening to technology, you 

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know subscribe and follow the 
show on your podcast app and on 

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LinkedIn, Twitter and Instagram.
And if you'd like to support my 

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00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,300
journey creating this, Cast 
subscribe as a patron at 

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00:02:38,300 --> 00:02:40,400
technology, not Dev slash 
Patron. 

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00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:45,300
My guest for today's episode is 
you te x times U Theta is a 

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coach consultant and trainer who
has helped many teams and 

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organizations worldwide. 
Making an angel transition in 

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this episode, we discussed ideas
from her book, company-wide 

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agility with Beyond budgeting 
open space and social currency, 

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also, widely known as the bossa 
nova book. 

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Utah started by sharing today's 
company challenge in terms of Of

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collision of values between the 
shareholders customers and the 

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employees, and she provided the 
suggestion, how to align the 

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values better, she then broke 
down, Bossa Nova and explain 

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each concept and principles of 
Beyond budgeting open space, 

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social currency and agile. 
Utah also shared the four values

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of Bossa Nova and how they also 
relate extrinsically to 

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sustainability. 
I enjoyed my conversation with 

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Yuta learning the different 
practices and principles that 

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can help improve our agility. 
And if you also enjoy listening 

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to this episode, will you help 
share it with your friends and 

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colleagues who can also benefit 
from listening to this episode? 

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It is my ultimate mission to 
spread this podcast to more 

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people and I really appreciate 
your support in any way towards 

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fulfilling my mission. 
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Hello everyone. 
Welcome to another new episode 

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of the package, in our podcast. 
Today we have a guest, she's an 

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independent coach very well 
known in the HR World. 

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Her name is utha Eckstein, He 
wrote a book that is quite 

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popular. 
The title is company-wide 

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agility with the on budgeting 
open space and social currency 

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or in short. 
People also know it as Bossa 

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Nova, so we'll cover why it's 
called Bossa Nova and we'll be 

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talking a lot about the concepts
from this book. 

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So you gotta really pleased to 
have you in the show today. 

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Thank you so much for spending 
your time. 

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Thank you so much for inviting 
me Henry. 

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So you thought I always like to 
ask my guests to share any 

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career highlights or Turning 
Point. 

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It's before we start into the 
conversation, maybe you can 

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share some interesting things 
from your career as well. 

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Well maybe one of my turning 
points was started off as a 

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developer. 
One of the projects I was 

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working on so probably for three
months or so the project manager

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walked up to me and because he's
probably in 96 or 97. 

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So really long time ago the 
project manager walked up to me 

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and said you too, I don't know 
what it is, but You're on the 

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team, things have changed for 
the better and that made me 

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think that maybe there is also 
something else that I can do 

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next to being a software 
developer on a team. 

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So this was probably the most 
important turning point for me 

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to think Beyond software 
development. 

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Then I started first into design
and architecture and then more 

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into leading teams. 
So maybe if you can share, what 

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was Is it that your project 
manager found from your 

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contribution in the team? 
Is there specific? 

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But he said he doesn't know, he 
just sees that it has an impact.

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So it he didn't know. 
He just said that this is what 

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he's observing. 
That things have changed for the

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better, anything that you may be
figured out as well, throughout 

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time, what I did then was trying
out different things. 

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So next to keep being a software
developer, I started into design

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and architecture and then into 
team leading. 

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Then in two teams of teams 
leading and been into supporting

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organizations. 
So it kind of started that whole

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truly if you will but it was 
really more. 

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Like he said something that I do
have an impact in some way, but 

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nobody knew what is so? 
I kept exploring. 

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It's very interesting that you 
pick this out as really great 

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turning points because sometimes
even things that you are not so 

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sure about, but you'd bring good
impact and you keep on exploring

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until you you have this career 
so far. 

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So thanks for sharing this 
insightful Journey. 

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So you topic today going to talk
about your book company-wide 

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agility with the on budgeting 
open space, on social Chrissy. 

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I mean, there are a few 
techniques inside the title 

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itself, but maybe let's start by
why you wrote the book in the 

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first place? 
What kind of problems that 

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you're trying to solve? 
So first of all, I could do Road

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it with Chum back and what I saw
was around that book, mainly two

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things. 
So the one thing, As teams in 

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organizations were quite 
successful, using an agile 

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approach. 
So some other parts in the 

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organization said, oh, can we 
benefit from this as well? 

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It what could we do in order to 
be more actual as the company? 

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The other thing that we also saw
was some teams roll out so 

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successful when we dig deeper 
into what's the key problem then

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it was, will the organization. 
So that That ecosystem wasn't 

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actual enough. 
They couldn't really benefit 

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fully from their actual 
approach. 

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So if you will, one driver was 
success and the other one was 

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maybe failure. 
And then of course, also around 

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that time. 
The discussion about business 

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agility started which is another
thing that she has many things 

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where you could look at and say 
well what companies are doing, 

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if they Not actual, maybe, in 
many cases, it doesn't fit 

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what's really needed. 
What we see is happening right 

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now is that we have this role, 
but keeps changing so that it's 

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volatile, uncertain complex and 
ambiguous. 

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So the book of world, we are 
living in and companies. 

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Just need to respond to that. 
For me, a key way to respond, to

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the book of world is being agile
as an organization. 

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I'm not talking about scrum. 
I'm here, I'm talking about 

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actual more in the literal 
sense. 

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So being flexible, adaptive 
responsive Nimble more like 

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that. 
So I think throughout the last 

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few years as well, we can see as
a job has transformed, a lot of 

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software development teams. 
I mean the concept of agile 

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methodology started maybe from a
software development team from 

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the manifesto and then, as more 
and more people adopted it, I 

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guess it was also quite popular 
and hugely successful. 

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We're now the concept of 
applying it to other parts of I 

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think if I'm not wrong, I've 
heard things like a gel, HR, a 

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job marketing, maybe a job, 
budgeting and things like that. 

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So why do you think so many 
different departments? 

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Also need to adopt this agile, 
practices, or mindset. 

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Maybe you can explore little bit
on that. 

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Yeah, well, it's exactly for the
same book of reasons because 

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they are facing complexity and 
they need to deal with it. 

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They need to be responsive and 
adaptive. 

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And so they look at what's 
working somewhere else. 

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Agile, software development is 
working at other places and 

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it's, of course also very 
promising to work in various 

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non-software places. 
Meanwhile, a lot of people have 

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tried it and it's dog and 
figured that it is helping them.

200
00:11:46,100 --> 00:11:49,800
Now with the person over, 
actually, we are more looking 

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across the department. 
It's also more than business 

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agility. 
It is really looking at the 

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company level. 
What can you do as the whole 

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company to Really be that. 
We actual and that literal sense

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00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:07,300
really in your book. 
Also, you mentioned one 

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particular thing which I think 
is quite insightful, right? 

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Because traditionally companies 
tend to maximize shareholder 

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00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,500
values that is like the ultimate
goal of company traditionally. 

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00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:20,700
But with all these recent 
changes, maybe with Asia concept

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00:12:20,700 --> 00:12:24,100
as well, customer should become 
the first point of reference for

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00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:26,600
the company's success. 
So tell us more about this 

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00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:30,100
perspective, where you shift 
from shareholder value to people

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00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:31,000
too. 
Customer. 

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And what would you Advocate that
a company should look at as a 

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00:12:34,600 --> 00:12:37,900
reference point? 
Actually Beyond budgeting that 

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00:12:37,900 --> 00:12:41,800
said a lot as well. 
Is that if you look at only the 

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00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,100
shareholder, they this is 
probably also what you get your 

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00:12:46,100 --> 00:12:49,700
only provide value for the 
shareholder, which is typically 

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00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:55,200
very short term thinking. 
Whereas if you focus on customer

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00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,500
value, you get, Additionally, 
the shareholder value. 

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00:13:00,500 --> 00:13:03,200
Would be also thing. 
And that's again, kind of what 

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00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:07,500
being budgeting also says, if we
are focusing on the employees, 

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then the employees and sure that
the customer will happy and this

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00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,300
will make the shareholder happy.
And so we have this whole chain 

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of providing value for everyone 
in our ecosystem, actually, it's

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00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:27,300
way more long-term than if we 
just look at the shareholder. 

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00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,300
The interesting thing about this
is that I think it's about four 

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years ago. 
So we're the Business Roundtable

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00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:41,300
that's kind of institution in 
the u.s. got together and it has

230
00:13:41,300 --> 00:13:45,300
like the leading CEOs of the 
American industry. 

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00:13:45,700 --> 00:13:49,900
They made that shift as well. 
They said, well, in the past, we

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have only focus on the 
shareholder belly, but we see 

233
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that this is appropriate for the
Times anymore. 

234
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And maybe also be have learned 
that it is Too short-sighted. 

235
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And we need to really think more
about the employees and the 

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customer and the shareholder and
actually, as well about the 

237
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environment we are in. 
So if I can just repeat, it is a

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sequential thing, right? 
So put focus more on your 

239
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people, when you have engaged 
happy employees, it will 

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00:14:22,500 --> 00:14:24,500
translate to good customer 
value. 

241
00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:27,200
Maybe they produce good products
or Goods Services. 

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00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:30,100
Once the customer value also 
increase people are happy and 

243
00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:32,700
the a shareholder of timidly 
will also benefit and you 

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00:14:32,708 --> 00:14:33,900
brought up that's the last 
point. 

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00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:36,800
We should also think about the 
environmental aspect, the 

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sustainability which is quite 
trendy these days where people 

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are talking a lot about it. 
So thanks for sharing this as a 

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00:14:42,800 --> 00:14:45,000
sequential Focus. 
That any company should think 

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about volunteerism. 
It's me the way you just pointed

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00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:50,400
it out. 
That's absolutely. 

251
00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:53,000
The way I thought of saying it. 
That's correct. 

252
00:14:53,000 --> 00:14:55,500
Thank you for, sorry Rising that
no problem. 

253
00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:57,700
So let's go to your thing, 
right? 

254
00:14:57,700 --> 00:15:01,200
Which is called Bossa Nova. 
Maybe for people who The puzzle 

255
00:15:01,300 --> 00:15:03,200
like they are not sure yet. 
What is Bossa? 

256
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,500
Nova, it sounds very exotic, 
right? 

257
00:15:05,700 --> 00:15:07,600
This? 
That's true. 

258
00:15:07,900 --> 00:15:11,200
It may be that as well. 
You mentioned the title of the 

259
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:15,900
book and in that title, there 
are those different streams that

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00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:20,200
we had looked out for the thing 
as when we figured that what's 

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00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:22,900
needed in the vocab, rule is 
actually a company. 

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00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:24,900
That's actual. 
So, what we talked already 

263
00:15:24,900 --> 00:15:29,100
about, we also thought, well, 
there are already several 

264
00:15:29,100 --> 00:15:33,000
streams out there. 
That look at various aspects of 

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organizations and provide that 
agility. 

266
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But think that we all probably 
know best actual development 

267
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that. 
So, in the software world but 

268
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also, you could say, looking at 
the process aspect because 

269
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that's where actual sits more or
less by keep learning from 

270
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:58,000
really small steps, getting that
feedback and then cause correct 

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00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,400
this way understanding Dealing 
with complexity. 

272
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,600
Now, this is not all that's 
needed in a company. 

273
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So, for example, Beyond 
budgeting looks at the financial

274
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area, and if you think about it,
if you fix your budget one year,

275
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:19,600
in advance, how actual can you 
actually be? 

276
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:23,600
Because money is already in the 
various buckets, it's all sorted

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00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:28,000
out, and if you now find out 
about this really cool, new 

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00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,200
innovation that you could tackle
bologna. 

279
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:34,300
You can because it hasn't 
planned for it in the battered. 

280
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,500
So we need a way of budgeting 
which is really more agile. 

281
00:16:39,800 --> 00:16:44,000
More Dynamic, more flexible, 
more responsive to what's 

282
00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:48,400
happening at the very moment and
this is what Beyond budgeting is

283
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,000
about. 
Actually, it is also probably 

284
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:54,200
broader but it started that's 
rights in the name, it started 

285
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,100
from budgeting but it also says,
well, because we all know many 

286
00:16:58,100 --> 00:17:01,200
rules the world. 
It means, All kinds of 

287
00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:06,099
management is triggered, by the 
way, how we are budgeting so 

288
00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:09,500
far, you could also talk about 
being budgeting is actually also

289
00:17:09,500 --> 00:17:14,500
a different kind of management 
approach that is more flexible 

290
00:17:14,500 --> 00:17:17,400
and is about to continuously 
adapt. 

291
00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:22,000
And it's empowering people as 
well so that's beyond budgeting.

292
00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:28,500
So looking at the financial area
in organization, then the second

293
00:17:28,500 --> 00:17:32,700
stream that we found that That's
really helping an organization 

294
00:17:32,700 --> 00:17:35,200
to become more agile is open 
space. 

295
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:39,100
A lot of people I can imagine in
the edge of Roland who are 

296
00:17:39,100 --> 00:17:43,000
listening to this right now 
might know open space as a 

297
00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:47,500
facilitation techniques so you 
can run workshops conferences. 

298
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:51,800
And so on in an open space 
format, the key to that open 

299
00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:57,100
space format is actually that 
everyone is invited to suggest a

300
00:17:57,108 --> 00:18:01,800
topic that's really pressing and
kneading, To discuss and been 

301
00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:06,900
whoever is interested in that 
topic, discusses Ed resolves, 

302
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:12,200
make suggestion in it, develops 
ideas, and so on based on in my 

303
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:17,600
tation and this thing that 
everyone can suggest a topic 

304
00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,800
which is also the love to feed 
or the loss of Mobility, where 

305
00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,200
you can then contribute to 
whatever is interesting. 

306
00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:31,000
You most, these are principles 
of which we think Super 

307
00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,800
important for an organization. 
So we are not thinking so much 

308
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,000
about the facilitation technique
as such, but more, as about the 

309
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:43,100
principles open face frames. 
So if you think about, but we 

310
00:18:43,100 --> 00:18:47,900
see in organizations with their 
lord, actual is, you are having 

311
00:18:48,100 --> 00:18:51,700
chopped descriptions for people 
where we say, well, there's and 

312
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:55,500
that is what we are needing. 
And therefore, we look for a 

313
00:18:55,500 --> 00:18:59,700
person who fits that Trump 
description, and the way I often

314
00:18:59,700 --> 00:19:03,300
look at, Is kind of we put 
people in a box. 

315
00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:08,300
And the box is defined by the 
chalk description, which also 

316
00:19:08,300 --> 00:19:12,100
means that we are not thinking 
beyond that box. 

317
00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:16,300
Now, if you take open space, as 
a principle here, you're more 

318
00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:19,300
looking at. 
What is the potential of the 

319
00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:23,600
individuals that we are having 
in the organization and then you

320
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:28,600
have this continuous invite 
ation for people to come up with

321
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,600
ideas and suggestions. 
It could be about features 

322
00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,600
products, anything. 
And then if you have enough, 

323
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,300
people who think this ideas 
create, I want to contribute to 

324
00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:43,700
it and I want to learn about it.
And so on, then this is a girl 

325
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:47,000
and that companies who are 
really set up like this, for 

326
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:52,800
example, not sure how well load 
it is in your area, WL, Gore and

327
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:56,300
Outdoor Equipment, recreating 
shoes, and jackets, and all of 

328
00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,100
that. 
And this is how they are set up 

329
00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:00,100
that really everyone in the 
company. 

330
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:04,100
And come up with the idea at any
time and if there are people who

331
00:20:04,100 --> 00:20:08,600
are interested, praying that 
idea forward then it is ago. 

332
00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:13,800
So that's the second Stream. 
So secrecy would be the third 

333
00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:18,100
stream that we found is helping 
an organization to become more 

334
00:20:18,100 --> 00:20:21,700
agile. 
So sir Percy, looks at how power

335
00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:27,600
is really distributed or not. 
And also what we see attached to

336
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,300
power is how decisions are made.
If you think about it, you want 

337
00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:35,100
to be agile as an organization 
but you make decisions in a 

338
00:20:35,108 --> 00:20:40,000
centralized way or if you are 
having like a strict top-down 

339
00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:45,900
hierarchy, then you might 
already figured that this slows 

340
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:50,100
you down because everything has 
to run through the top or 

341
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:53,900
through this centralized 
decision-making body, but you 

342
00:20:53,900 --> 00:20:58,100
need to be quick like that, you 
can, if you're using it in a 

343
00:20:58,108 --> 00:21:01,900
normal, whatever rate. 
And so surprised, Is providing 

344
00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:07,100
structures that helps you to 
make the hierarchy more flexible

345
00:21:07,100 --> 00:21:12,600
and more liquid if you will and 
also ensures that decision 

346
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,200
making is decentralized and now 
putting this all together. 

347
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:22,200
So the shortcut of that whole 
concept is or send over and so 

348
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,500
we had the be that comes from 
Beyond budgeting that's feet 

349
00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:28,200
into the be, then we have open 
space. 

350
00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:32,300
That's the heroes of The bossa 
then we have the next ass. 

351
00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:36,100
That's the Subscribe, / C and 
then the a is actual. 

352
00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,700
And so we played around of 
course with these characters and

353
00:21:39,700 --> 00:21:44,900
then Bossa Nova is actually a 
bird in Portuguese. 

354
00:21:44,900 --> 00:21:50,100
That means New Wave new trend. 
And so this is what we hope that

355
00:21:50,100 --> 00:21:55,600
we can provide here with an idea
about a new trendy way for 

356
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,800
organizations to become actual. 
It actually is also a style of 

357
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:05,100
music Bad style of music. 
It's a merger between cool 

358
00:22:05,100 --> 00:22:09,500
chests and summer. 
And so by looking at these 

359
00:22:09,500 --> 00:22:11,100
different streams, but we've 
done. 

360
00:22:11,100 --> 00:22:14,900
This also melting these together
or bringing these together, 

361
00:22:14,900 --> 00:22:18,300
those different streams. 
And then the third thing is that

362
00:22:18,300 --> 00:22:21,500
was analyzed. 
Actually also Advanced, we just 

363
00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:25,900
think about, if you want to be 
agile with an organization, it 

364
00:22:25,900 --> 00:22:28,300
really is a little bit like in a
dense. 

365
00:22:28,700 --> 00:22:31,600
So when you are dancing, when 
you are cooperating 

366
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:35,000
collaborating, whatever 
listening responding to the 

367
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:38,400
moves of people on the dance 
floor, it could be chest to your

368
00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,600
papa, you're dancing with or 
everyone who's in on the dance 

369
00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,900
floor. 
But you're also doing this to 

370
00:22:43,900 --> 00:22:48,100
the music that's played. 
However, it's also vice versa. 

371
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,400
So the way you are dancing often
influence is what kind of music 

372
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:57,200
is played next. 
So it is a continuous kind of a 

373
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,200
dialogue that's happening and 
that's also what we Is needed 

374
00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:06,300
for agile organization, my final
work to this, I explained the 

375
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:09,600
bossa where this is coming from 
and then the Nova, of course, 

376
00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,000
because there's this music and 
dance and so on. 

377
00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:15,400
But the Nova is also there 
because we believe the four 

378
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,500
streams that we have put 
together as kind of the call for

379
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:23,800
being agile as company. 
Most likely, there are small out

380
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,200
there and most likely more stuff
will be invented. 

381
00:23:27,300 --> 00:23:30,000
Please take a look at what else 
is out there. 

382
00:23:30,100 --> 00:23:33,400
Are that helps you to be actual 
as a company. 

383
00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:37,000
So it's not that putting Beyond 
budgeting Open Spaces are can 

384
00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:40,500
see and actual together is the 
end of the whole story. 

385
00:23:40,500 --> 00:23:43,900
You need to continuously maybe 
Invent Yourself. 

386
00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:46,500
Wow. 
Thank you for this beautiful 

387
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:49,800
explanation, how you come up 
with this name Person over it 

388
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,600
has actually different types of 
meaning. 

389
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,000
So the first Bosa is a 
combination of these four 

390
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:57,500
techniques Beyond budgeting open
space and social currency, and 

391
00:23:57,500 --> 00:24:00,000
agile, putting it together as 
Bossa Nova it. 

392
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:03,000
Actually means different thing. 
So it could be a new way for 

393
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:04,800
Trend. 
It could be music, it could be 

394
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:07,900
also dance and it could be also 
like learning new things. 

395
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,400
It's not just the four 
techniques that you mentioned 

396
00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,000
and that's it forever. 
So thank you for sharing that 

397
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,900
maybe if we can just go deep 
into each of the techniques 

398
00:24:15,900 --> 00:24:18,200
shortly, you mention about 
Beyond budgeting. 

399
00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,700
I think many people might have 
heard about this technique as 

400
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:24,900
well and we all acknowledge that
Financial budgeting system, is 

401
00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:27,800
kind of like rigid most 
companies will do yearly. 

402
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:31,300
Budgeting I assume. 
It's still It is in many parts 

403
00:24:31,300 --> 00:24:34,100
of the company's. 
Maybe you can also see it in 

404
00:24:34,100 --> 00:24:37,600
your Consulting techniques how 
this method is actually being 

405
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,900
adopted. 
Is it something that many 

406
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:42,800
corporates have already 
Incorporated and you mention 

407
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,500
that Beyond budgeting is not 
just for finance, right? 

408
00:24:45,500 --> 00:24:47,500
So maybe you can share a little 
bit about this. 

409
00:24:47,500 --> 00:24:50,300
How is the adoption? 
Like and how other principles 

410
00:24:50,300 --> 00:24:53,400
actually helping people to be 
more agile from Beyond 

411
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,900
budgeting. 
Yeah, so again be a budgeting 

412
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:02,400
really understands itself more 
asking Yawn command and control 

413
00:25:02,700 --> 00:25:07,000
because you command and control 
also with the budget a lot. 

414
00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:12,100
This is really deeply connected 
here and so one way of looking 

415
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:15,000
at it, it's really thinking 
about being toward the 

416
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,700
management model that is more 
empowered and adaptive, maybe we

417
00:25:19,700 --> 00:25:24,600
start with one key idea is to 
look at the different purposes 

418
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:29,200
at that budget provides. 
For example, one reason why you 

419
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,600
are coming up With the budget in
the first place is because you 

420
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,400
want to look at what are we 
aiming for? 

421
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,200
So what's our Target actually 
that we are aiming for? 

422
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,100
Then the second thing is that 
you're trying to make a forecast

423
00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:47,700
by asking. 
Okay, what do we think will 

424
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,100
happen? 
So you know what you're aiming 

425
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:53,600
for and now you make a kind of 
an estimate, what you think will

426
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,600
happen in the future and 
therefore, you put an x amount 

427
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,600
in that bucket. 
And then the third thing is, 

428
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:00,800
what the fuck. 
To best. 

429
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,600
It's a way of allocating 
resources. 

430
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:08,000
The resource here is the money, 
which goes into all different 

431
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,600
directions. 
If you want to really do this in

432
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:14,100
that project, we would need to 
spend money on a given 

433
00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:18,000
technology or we need to run 
whatever rooms. 

434
00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:21,800
And of course, we need to ensure
that we have the people and they

435
00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,600
are equipped with all kinds of 
stuff and so on. 

436
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:28,800
So it's all of these three 
things so Target, forecast, 

437
00:26:29,300 --> 00:26:33,900
resources, Location know, the 
one understanding in 

438
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,100
traditional, budgeting way, is 
that these three things are put 

439
00:26:38,100 --> 00:26:41,800
together into one number? 
The first idea is already 

440
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,100
understanding that. 
These are actually three 

441
00:26:44,100 --> 00:26:47,200
different things and you don't 
need to put them all together 

442
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,400
into one thing because if you 
do, then you're being super 

443
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,100
inflexible. 
But you need to be more 

444
00:26:54,100 --> 00:26:56,300
adaptive. 
Once you understood that this is

445
00:26:56,300 --> 00:27:00,300
already super helpful but then 
what you could also do you And 

446
00:27:00,300 --> 00:27:03,600
think about the targets, not 
being fixed. 

447
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,500
So you have a Target that's most
often. 

448
00:27:07,500 --> 00:27:10,700
The best ways to do it. 
Relative to whatever you have 

449
00:27:10,700 --> 00:27:13,700
done before or relative to a 
competitor. 

450
00:27:13,900 --> 00:27:17,900
It could be also, of course, the
demand that's out there may be 

451
00:27:17,900 --> 00:27:21,200
an encounter example for that. 
If you think you are a 

452
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:27,100
salesperson and your target is 
that you sell, let's say, 100 of

453
00:27:27,100 --> 00:27:30,600
whatever your product you're 
selling, and they then at the 

454
00:27:30,600 --> 00:27:35,000
end of the year, you will find 
out that you managed to sell the

455
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,700
hundred and so you are happy and
you get your bonus. 

456
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,800
However, if you then look and 
see that, the competitors have 

457
00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,700
actually sold 500 of their 
competitive products in that 

458
00:27:46,700 --> 00:27:50,100
time, then maybe the hundred 
isn't really that good and vice 

459
00:27:50,100 --> 00:27:52,800
versa. 
If you found out that all the 

460
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:58,000
competitors had sold, only maybe
20, then the hundred means it's 

461
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,800
something completely different. 
Having fixed targets isn't 

462
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,100
yearly adaptive enough to what's
happening in Bible cover. 

463
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:09,800
So that was making targets 
relative. 

464
00:28:10,100 --> 00:28:14,100
Then we have the forecast, which
was about thinking what's 

465
00:28:14,100 --> 00:28:17,900
happening or what's my 
assumption about what's 

466
00:28:17,900 --> 00:28:21,800
happening and because things 
keep changing the whole time. 

467
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:25,500
But you need to do is to have 
kind of patrolling forecast 

468
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:28,200
which is pretty known. 
I would think in the actual 

469
00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:31,900
World which is we keep reading 
Planning all the time. 

470
00:28:31,900 --> 00:28:35,500
So with every Sprint it for use 
from, for example, we look 

471
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:37,600
again. 
Where are we and what's coming? 

472
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,000
Next Rochester? 
Highest priority now and 

473
00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,600
therefore, we aim for it and 
plan for it, and that's actually

474
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,800
exactly needed in the way as 
well for budget. 

475
00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:51,000
So it's having a rolling 
forecast then also to rise from 

476
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,500
that the resource allocation 
needs to be as well. 

477
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,600
Dynamic based on what we came up
with our rolling forecast, so 

478
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,900
again, She fixed that a year 
that groans. 

479
00:29:01,900 --> 00:29:05,400
Oh my God, then you might have 
people sitting around and doing 

480
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,800
stupid Southall. 
They are way too busy because 

481
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:10,900
you are lots having enough 
people there. 

482
00:29:10,900 --> 00:29:14,400
For example, all you didn't 
spend enough money on the right 

483
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:19,200
technology or you have a lot of 
money left over, which is also 

484
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,400
happening at times. 
And then, what do people do? 

485
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,400
Well, they keep spending it. 
Anyway, this is also that 

486
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,900
helpful for the company, so if 
you keep being more flexible, 

487
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,500
Belen, adaptive to the current 
need. 

488
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:36,900
This really means that the 
company can be more successful, 

489
00:29:36,900 --> 00:29:41,200
also financially, although I 
ought to know it sounds a bit 

490
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,300
scary. 
It sounds more secure to fix it,

491
00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:49,000
but it in advance, but actually,
it's not, it's just a perceived 

492
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,500
security, but it's not really 
there. 

493
00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:55,300
So, how about the adoption? 
Because again, like you said, 

494
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:58,500
people may be a scared, right? 
Because financially want to 

495
00:29:58,500 --> 00:30:00,600
secure the sustainability of The
company. 

496
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,900
Probably they note the prophets 
and the expenses they want to 

497
00:30:03,908 --> 00:30:07,000
Project based on your target 
before cars and the resources 

498
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,500
allocation. 
So how does the company adoption

499
00:30:10,500 --> 00:30:13,600
so far? 
Has the company understood and 

500
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,200
if it's not nearly, what would 
you Advocate that? 

501
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,900
Is it monthly? 
What is the Cadence for this 

502
00:30:18,900 --> 00:30:23,100
budgeting cycle? 
So, then try some companies 

503
00:30:23,100 --> 00:30:26,100
doing that. 
Because we are now talking about

504
00:30:26,100 --> 00:30:30,900
this exact year, not about the 
bossa nova in general, So on the

505
00:30:30,900 --> 00:30:36,100
Beyond budgeting website, that's
actually bbrt dot-org for Beyond

506
00:30:36,100 --> 00:30:39,000
budgeting Round Table. 
I guess we can provide links 

507
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:42,100
later on. 
You will see they're all the 

508
00:30:42,100 --> 00:30:44,900
companies listed. 
They are worldwide. 

509
00:30:44,900 --> 00:30:48,800
It's really a long list. 
So it's not anything exotic if 

510
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,200
you will, there are different 
ways. 

511
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:54,600
Well, as you can imagine because
we are speaking of the book a 

512
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,700
brawl, there's not one size fits
all playing. 

513
00:30:57,700 --> 00:30:59,900
So there are different 
approaches, how you can be? 

514
00:31:00,100 --> 00:31:03,500
With it just to give you some 
ideas but companies are doing 

515
00:31:03,500 --> 00:31:08,100
for example, you can think of 
defining a burn rate as a 

516
00:31:08,100 --> 00:31:11,500
guidance. 
So you can ask your team's to 

517
00:31:11,500 --> 00:31:16,900
operate with full autonomy 
within specific Rage or level. 

518
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:20,500
So where you say okay? 
You can't over spend that amount

519
00:31:20,700 --> 00:31:24,500
but as long as you are in that 
range, you just do whatever you 

520
00:31:24,500 --> 00:31:27,900
think is needed. 
Another thing that people do is 

521
00:31:27,900 --> 00:31:31,800
unique cause targets where it It
says, well, you can always spend

522
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,000
more if you produce also more, 
so then it's Dynamic to what's 

523
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,700
the need in the market right 
now. 

524
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,900
All you can think of Benchmark 
targets where you can look at 

525
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:48,200
unit costs that are below the 
average of the piers, and the 

526
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,800
pills could be inside your 
company or external. 

527
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,300
If you compare to that, or it 
can be also like a story beta of

528
00:31:56,300 --> 00:31:59,900
yourself, or you can think of 
profit. 

529
00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:05,400
It's that you spend in a way 
that you are maximizing your 

530
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,600
overall, bottom line. 
So this is another way. 

531
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:13,900
All you could also say well we 
don't have any kind of Target 

532
00:32:13,900 --> 00:32:16,900
and it's just monitored probably
top management. 

533
00:32:16,900 --> 00:32:20,700
Also will only intervene if they
feel like it's needed, that's 

534
00:32:20,700 --> 00:32:23,600
also something that we see 
that's happening again. 

535
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,300
There's no one-size-fits-all 
which is I think good. 

536
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:30,400
Because in the book Cabral that 
can't be Exist. 

537
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,200
And so, they are just various 
ways that are done. 

538
00:32:33,400 --> 00:32:36,200
Also, depending on the 
department, that you are able, 

539
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,100
whatever kind of work we're 
doing here. 

540
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,500
Thank you for sharing some of 
these permutations of different 

541
00:32:42,500 --> 00:32:45,500
ways you could do this. 
So, I myself don't come from the

542
00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,200
financial background, so some of
these things could not relate to

543
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:50,900
well, but I think for those 
people who are so maybe you can 

544
00:32:50,900 --> 00:32:53,700
use some of these techniques and
maybe you can find Inspirations 

545
00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:56,500
from some of the companies who 
have adopted this technique. 

546
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,300
So let's move to this open space
because you And in the 

547
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:03,000
beginning, it came from. 
This facilitation technique, 

548
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:04,200
right? 
We're probably it's like a 

549
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:08,300
conference, you can have people 
opening up a certain topics any 

550
00:33:08,300 --> 00:33:11,800
random people can just go in and
chip in collaborate and comment 

551
00:33:11,900 --> 00:33:13,900
or they can also decide to work 
out. 

552
00:33:14,300 --> 00:33:17,300
Something people can just easily
come and go and make decisions 

553
00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:19,700
and run away, right? 
I guess there's something else 

554
00:33:19,700 --> 00:33:21,800
that you want to pick up from 
this technique. 

555
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:23,500
Maybe there are some values from
it. 

556
00:33:23,500 --> 00:33:27,200
Maybe you can share a little bit
about this technique so I first 

557
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,800
would like to do a very quick 
recap on Open space. 

558
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,100
So there are those principles. 
The one is it starts when it 

559
00:33:34,100 --> 00:33:38,400
starts, it ends when it sends, 
whoever is there are the right 

560
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:40,800
people. 
And I just want to repeat this 

561
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,400
there a bit more than that. 
But just with those three very 

562
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,900
often, we sit in meetings and 
for example, we wait for 

563
00:33:48,900 --> 00:33:51,900
somebody to show up who then 
doesn't show up. 

564
00:33:52,100 --> 00:33:55,800
Instead of we are saying, well, 
whoever is there are the right 

565
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,900
people because they have the 
passion to really work on that 

566
00:33:58,900 --> 00:34:01,400
topic. 
But Meeting is about and 

567
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,700
therefore, these are the right 
ones and also if I refer to the 

568
00:34:05,700 --> 00:34:08,600
second one that I just 
mentioned, like it ends when it 

569
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,100
ends. 
But I've also seen kissing, if 

570
00:34:11,100 --> 00:34:14,000
you think of regular meetings 
that sometimes it feels like the

571
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,300
time is Phil just because the 
meeting has been set up to a 

572
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:20,600
one-hour thing and therefore we 
meet for one hour or so, we 

573
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,300
might be done earlier only, we 
might even need more time. 

574
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:27,900
Also this can happen and so open
spaces here. 

575
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:32,500
More focused on what? 
What's needed really, and where 

576
00:34:32,500 --> 00:34:35,600
is the passion? 
You know, keeping on with the 

577
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,199
principles. 
There's also, whatever happens 

578
00:34:38,300 --> 00:34:41,900
is the only thing that could. 
So the topic might also shift a 

579
00:34:41,908 --> 00:34:45,699
little bit because that's where 
the passion leads us to. 

580
00:34:46,199 --> 00:34:50,199
And then, it also says, the last
principle here is wherever it 

581
00:34:50,199 --> 00:34:51,699
happened. 
Is they own the place, it 

582
00:34:51,699 --> 00:34:55,100
should. 
So it might happen like wherever

583
00:34:55,100 --> 00:34:58,500
we are right now or we need the 
specific location. 

584
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:02,600
I talked already about This law 
of two feet. 

585
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:06,500
If we don't think about taking 
those principles to the 

586
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:10,500
organizational level then. 
Well, we talked a lot here about

587
00:35:10,500 --> 00:35:16,000
self organization meaning that 
everyone really is invited and 

588
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:21,500
we even rely on everyone to 
suggest and burp on any idea 

589
00:35:21,500 --> 00:35:27,500
that important for the company. 
However, that invite ation has 

590
00:35:27,500 --> 00:35:30,400
some limits. 
And the limits should Should be 

591
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:33,900
guided by the passion. 
People are having if I'm not 

592
00:35:33,900 --> 00:35:36,400
passionate about it, but I 
think, well, somebody should 

593
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,100
really work on this. 
Well, then it's not going to 

594
00:35:39,100 --> 00:35:43,400
happen, and I see that a lot as 
well that people say, well, this

595
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:47,700
is some advice this and bad, not
really working out, but if 

596
00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:51,500
nobody has the passion to fix 
it, nothing will happen. 

597
00:35:51,700 --> 00:35:54,400
So passion is some kind of very 
constrained. 

598
00:35:54,700 --> 00:35:57,500
Another constraint is the 
responsibility. 

599
00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:01,400
We actually put this often 
together and say Passion, Bound 

600
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:06,300
by responsibility. 
The responsibility is, for 

601
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:11,300
example, the overall vision of 
the company or another thing is,

602
00:36:11,700 --> 00:36:16,300
well, we know about the ethics 
of the company, and then, there 

603
00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:19,500
are other things. 
So, like the passion follows 

604
00:36:19,500 --> 00:36:23,900
that old-world strategy, the 
other thing is that we are all 

605
00:36:23,900 --> 00:36:29,400
self responsible for the 
learning of ourselves, but also,

606
00:36:29,900 --> 00:36:33,900
Kind of helping others to learn.
So what we are basically talking

607
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:37,700
about is empowerment because 
anything can happen. 

608
00:36:37,700 --> 00:36:41,500
That's inspired by anyone 
actually so yeah. 

609
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:43,000
Thanks for sharing this open 
space. 

610
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:46,000
I think it makes sense, right? 
It is not just to be translated 

611
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,000
as is. 
So some of the principles that 

612
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,400
you mentioned, whoever that is 
there is the right people, 

613
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,100
whenever it starts to the right 
time. 

614
00:36:52,300 --> 00:36:54,000
And when it's over, it's also, 
it's over. 

615
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,200
So I guess these are some of the
principles from the open space 

616
00:36:57,200 --> 00:37:00,500
technique and some of the values
like you mentioned, Asian 

617
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:04,200
passion and self-responsibility.
And the last one is empowerment 

618
00:37:04,300 --> 00:37:07,300
people to be empowered to make 
decisions and work on what the 

619
00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:10,100
things they are. 
Passionate about, can I add one 

620
00:37:10,100 --> 00:37:12,900
more thing? 
Because people keep asking us so

621
00:37:12,900 --> 00:37:16,500
often about that because there 
is open space at reality as a 

622
00:37:16,500 --> 00:37:18,700
concept that some people might 
know. 

623
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:23,000
So they are asking how this 
relates for US Open Space 

624
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:28,000
agility which is actually using 
open space, the workshop format 

625
00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,500
for your ankle. 
Surely if so, for bringing agile

626
00:37:32,500 --> 00:37:35,900
to a team or two teams of teams 
and so on. 

627
00:37:36,100 --> 00:37:39,200
And so this is how we think 
about open space. 

628
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:43,100
So you can also start thinking 
of getting on your journey for 

629
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:49,400
company, right? 
Agility, by using various shops 

630
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,300
that are following an open space
format, but we are doing is 

631
00:37:53,300 --> 00:37:57,100
feeling Mall doping, at how can 
be used the principles on the 

632
00:37:57,100 --> 00:38:00,500
Strategic level. 
So is the principles and the 

633
00:38:00,500 --> 00:38:03,100
values rather than just doing 
the activities of the 

634
00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:05,600
techniques. 
So let's move to the third 

635
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,300
technique, which is social 
croscill you mentioned. 

636
00:38:08,300 --> 00:38:10,600
It's about having people working
together. 

637
00:38:10,700 --> 00:38:13,700
It's about collaboration, 
distributive, decision-making 

638
00:38:13,700 --> 00:38:15,800
process. 
So tell us more about. 

639
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:18,900
Maybe there are some principles 
as well behind the social policy

640
00:38:18,900 --> 00:38:21,000
and how should we use it in 
organization? 

641
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:25,500
So at the core of So Co can see 
we have equivalence. 

642
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,700
That's I would say, we leave the
key to everything. 

643
00:38:28,700 --> 00:38:31,200
Nothing maybe I'll start with 
decision-making. 

644
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,300
So one thing that so surprised 
because she is suggesting is to 

645
00:38:36,300 --> 00:38:42,200
make decisions by consent if you
think about the way, how we of 

646
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,900
make decisions so they are very 
sprays, the one can be 

647
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:48,400
autocratic. 
So one person says this is the 

648
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:51,900
way we go and decides for 
everyone else which is super 

649
00:38:51,900 --> 00:38:55,800
fast and sometimes really super 
helpful as well and other times 

650
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,500
not so much because people don't
have the buy-in The decision 

651
00:38:59,500 --> 00:39:03,400
because they never got asked, 
then we have like maturity 

652
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,700
votes. 
So what we often do in 

653
00:39:05,700 --> 00:39:09,700
retrospectives that people do 
dot voting on things and where 

654
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:13,000
we have the most thoughts is 
kind of the thing that we are 

655
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:17,600
doing then which is creating a 
sense because we ask everyone, 

656
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:21,300
everyone has a voice. 
However, the minority is 

657
00:39:21,300 --> 00:39:24,900
ignored, it might not have to 
buy into what we're doing. 

658
00:39:25,500 --> 00:39:29,300
There are other ways to come up 
with a decision for people with 

659
00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:32,100
consensus, where we really ask 
everyone. 

660
00:39:32,100 --> 00:39:35,600
And we have long, long 
discussions, until we are coming

661
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,900
to an agreement. 
And this is the way we go. 

662
00:39:39,100 --> 00:39:42,100
Of course, you can also do like 
a random decision making. 

663
00:39:42,100 --> 00:39:46,200
So you throw a dice and says, if
it's a 6, we do this and if it's

664
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,300
a one, we do the opposite or 
something now. 

665
00:39:49,300 --> 00:39:53,300
So, sir Percy comes with another
way of making decisions which is

666
00:39:53,300 --> 00:39:57,500
called deciding by consent. 
It sounds a bit like consensus 

667
00:39:57,500 --> 00:40:02,800
but it's not Remember consensus 
was about coming to an agreement

668
00:40:03,100 --> 00:40:07,400
now, consent is about coming to 
acceptance. 

669
00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:12,500
One of the key questions, we 
often ask there is, can you live

670
00:40:12,500 --> 00:40:16,200
with that decision? 
Do you have an objection that 

671
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:21,400
might go in the direction that 
you see our joint goal at risk? 

672
00:40:21,500 --> 00:40:27,000
If we decide that way, or can 
you tolerate that decision? 

673
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,700
So it's really more about About,
can I accept it and not 

674
00:40:30,700 --> 00:40:32,800
necessarily do? 
I agree with it. 

675
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,000
I might favor something 
different but can I live with 

676
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:37,100
it? 
Maybe yes. 

677
00:40:37,100 --> 00:40:41,300
So and then there are some other
things that we also put together

678
00:40:41,300 --> 00:40:43,300
here. 
Like we asked, well, is that 

679
00:40:43,300 --> 00:40:47,500
decision may be good enough for 
now safe enough to try and safe 

680
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:50,400
enough to try mine? 
Then also be true. 

681
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,500
If we say, what about if you put
the time box to it but about if 

682
00:40:54,500 --> 00:40:58,600
we try that for the next three 
months and then revisit every 

683
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:02,900
Off with think, whatever we do 
is for eternity, but it's seldom

684
00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:06,200
really is if we look back, what 
happened in the past, right? 

685
00:41:06,300 --> 00:41:09,600
And so why not making that more 
transparent? 

686
00:41:09,600 --> 00:41:12,200
That it's not for eternity or 
poet? 

687
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,600
Feels like that. 
So again, the key thing is 

688
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:21,400
looking for acceptance, not 
agreement, and asking everyone's

689
00:41:21,400 --> 00:41:23,900
voice. 
So ask the really everyone who 

690
00:41:23,900 --> 00:41:28,100
is involved here. 
So that decision making another 

691
00:41:28,100 --> 00:41:30,700
thing that That's really super 
important. 

692
00:41:30,700 --> 00:41:34,500
And so sir Percy is how we are 
looking at the structure in an 

693
00:41:34,500 --> 00:41:38,100
organization. 
So I mentioned before that very 

694
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:42,500
often, we see like more 
hierarchy that's top-down and so

695
00:41:42,500 --> 00:41:46,800
the information trickles down 
and decisions, go top to bottom 

696
00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:52,100
and so on it's not only slow. 
But it also means we are 

697
00:41:52,100 --> 00:41:56,700
ignoring a lot of people on the 
way from top to bottom that 

698
00:41:56,700 --> 00:42:01,400
maybe know a lot about The stuff
that we are looking at right now

699
00:42:01,600 --> 00:42:04,300
again in that book of world, we 
need all the different 

700
00:42:04,300 --> 00:42:07,800
perspectives to make good 
decisions or to bring all the 

701
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,000
information together and so on 
and so. 

702
00:42:11,100 --> 00:42:13,900
So sir, Percy kind of starts of 
where we are. 

703
00:42:13,900 --> 00:42:19,700
So we have a top-down hierarchy 
but then it introduces now I'll 

704
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:24,000
be using more natural term a 
feedback Link in the structure 

705
00:42:24,300 --> 00:42:27,200
because that's what's missing 
and then top-down hierarchy 

706
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,200
everything goes top the The 
bottom. 

707
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,000
But now if we introduce a 
feedback link, it's also having 

708
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:37,900
that structure bottom to top. 
This is done by electing 

709
00:42:37,900 --> 00:42:42,300
representatives of every level 
in the hierarchy. 

710
00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:46,800
That's representing that level 
one level higher. 

711
00:42:47,500 --> 00:42:51,600
And so if you think of a 
department or a team that they 

712
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,100
have kind of two leaders, so one
is appointed top to bottom, 

713
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:59,000
maybe a classical manner. 
Sure. 

714
00:42:59,300 --> 00:43:03,000
And the other one is elected 
bottom to top. 

715
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:07,600
Now they both together 
collaborate with everything 

716
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,800
that's around leading the team. 
And then if you think of how we 

717
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:16,500
make decisions based on consent,
they ain't you also know that we

718
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:20,700
always hear all voices. 
Also the ones from the bottom. 

719
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,800
Well, this is a very interesting
technique. 

720
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:26,500
So there are so many things that
you unwrap here about social 

721
00:43:26,500 --> 00:43:28,400
Chrissy. 
The first is about decision 

722
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:31,400
making Aching by consent is not 
consensus again. 

723
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:34,200
You explained it very clearly 
consent doesn't mean that 

724
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,100
everyone agrees and accepts, but
you will have some of these 

725
00:43:37,100 --> 00:43:38,300
questions. 
Can you live? 

726
00:43:38,300 --> 00:43:40,100
Can you tolerate with that 
decision? 

727
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:43,300
So it's not necessarily just 
acceptance and you also mention 

728
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:46,800
about election, right? 
The concept of top bottom bottom

729
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,800
up, right? 
So you should have two leaders 

730
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:51,600
may be representing from the 
bottom as well, so that it's not

731
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,700
biased just from the leaders 
point of view. 

732
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,600
But the feedback from the bottom
is also kind of like a Channel 

733
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:00,500
Through the top and Everyone 
make decision by the consent 

734
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:02,800
together. 
Again, it's really beautiful way

735
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,000
of explaining that. 
So, the last one, I think most 

736
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,500
people know about a job, a job, 
Manifesto. 

737
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,800
But I would like to pick up this
values that you actually took 

738
00:44:11,800 --> 00:44:15,600
from the Asia Manifesto. 
You use it as a generic thing, 

739
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,200
not just for software 
development but for the 

740
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,600
organization in general. 
So maybe can you share us this 

741
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,500
for values of the age are part 
of Bosa, Nova? 

742
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:29,400
So yeah, I said, we looked at 
the Manifest because what we 

743
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:33,100
found was that the book of world
is asking for companies to be 

744
00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:36,400
agile and therefore, we have a 
lot about actual out there. 

745
00:44:36,400 --> 00:44:39,300
And so looking at the manifesto 
just made sense. 

746
00:44:39,500 --> 00:44:43,800
If you look at the values, what 
they basically mean is that you 

747
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,500
need transparency, you need self
organization, you need a 

748
00:44:48,500 --> 00:44:52,100
constant customer focus and 
continuous learning. 

749
00:44:52,100 --> 00:44:57,200
So, these are the four values 
that guide A company towards 

750
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:01,000
being actual. 
If we then look at what this 

751
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,600
means is, well, transparency 
means that we need to be 

752
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:11,100
transparent for everyone who is 
involved in two directions to 

753
00:45:11,100 --> 00:45:15,300
directions mean, I am 
transparent about what I am 

754
00:45:15,300 --> 00:45:20,800
doing but I also know that if I 
seek information for something 

755
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:24,700
that other people are also 
lowering those barriers that I 

756
00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:29,000
Find the information. 
So the thing for us is that we 

757
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:32,300
don't think necessarily that 
everything needs to be 

758
00:45:32,300 --> 00:45:37,500
transparent, but whoever needs 
whatever kind of information 

759
00:45:37,700 --> 00:45:40,100
will be able to get that 
information. 

760
00:45:40,500 --> 00:45:44,000
For me, at least it's kind of 
rapport with to not necessarily 

761
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,900
make everything transparent 
because there's so much 

762
00:45:46,900 --> 00:45:50,800
information overload already. 
So there are also things that 

763
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,200
are not important for me to know
and so I'm fine with that. 

764
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:58,300
And of course This also here, it
depends whatever your setting 

765
00:45:58,300 --> 00:46:01,900
is, it might be important to you
to make everything transparent. 

766
00:46:02,300 --> 00:46:06,300
If you look into self 
organization as the next thing 

767
00:46:06,300 --> 00:46:10,400
is that we really think it's 
super important to have 

768
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:15,200
cross-functional teams and we 
recommend that the team select 

769
00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:18,800
themselves which is actually 
sitting in open space as well 

770
00:46:18,800 --> 00:46:21,000
but you have the passion 
dieting. 

771
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:22,800
The people what they want to 
work on. 

772
00:46:23,200 --> 00:46:28,000
So if they select So they also 
follow their passion with 

773
00:46:28,000 --> 00:46:30,400
responsibility. 
Remember, we said that passion 

774
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,400
also should be linked together 
with being responsible in what 

775
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,600
we are doing. 
And then if we look at constant 

776
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:43,000
customer focus, that means in 
whatever we are doing we always 

777
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,200
need to have the customer focus 
in mind. 

778
00:46:46,500 --> 00:46:50,100
So no matter if you looking at 
the product process structure 

779
00:46:50,100 --> 00:46:55,400
strategy or our individual 
contribution kind of every Spect

780
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:59,800
should be related back into, how
does it provide the value for 

781
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,400
the customer? 
And then the fourth thing was 

782
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,900
continuously rolling, which is 
really about, we never should 

783
00:47:06,900 --> 00:47:11,700
stop learning and we also have a
responsibility to contribute to 

784
00:47:11,700 --> 00:47:15,700
other people's learning and then
we keep getting feedback in the 

785
00:47:15,700 --> 00:47:18,900
deck which probably sits the 
most in the actual area. 

786
00:47:18,900 --> 00:47:23,400
Here, there's maybe one thing 
that I find important, we talked

787
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,900
a little bit that I said 
Ability. 

788
00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,700
And the environmental aspect is 
kind of important to me, at 

789
00:47:29,700 --> 00:47:34,900
least there's a reason for it. 
So if you manage to be agile as 

790
00:47:34,900 --> 00:47:39,900
a team or as an organization as 
a company and you also say so 

791
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,800
that you say, oh we are natural 
T, we are lateral company, then 

792
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:46,200
this comes actually with an 
expectation. 

793
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:50,900
So just consider you say you are
natural team and then people 

794
00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:56,100
find out that you are not 
inclusive that you Not welcoming

795
00:47:56,100 --> 00:47:59,900
all kinds of people. 
They then I'm pretty sure people

796
00:47:59,900 --> 00:48:04,600
will say, well, I thought your 
actual or if a company says its 

797
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:09,100
actual but then people find out 
it's not paying fairly or its 

798
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,800
maybe even polluting the 
environment. 

799
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,400
Then also people would say, 
well, I thought your actual 

800
00:48:15,700 --> 00:48:18,900
that's actually still in the 
bossa nova book as well. 

801
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,000
The last part where we say well 
okay you think you have managed 

802
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:25,500
that Shirley yes and one hairdo 
Did it. 

803
00:48:25,700 --> 00:48:30,200
But now I would you need to look
at your external responsibility 

804
00:48:30,500 --> 00:48:33,600
if you then look, again at the 
values. 

805
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,600
That's why I wanted to make that
point here. 

806
00:48:36,900 --> 00:48:41,500
Those values, the meaning of the
values shift a little bit, so 

807
00:48:41,500 --> 00:48:45,700
transparency, then leads to 
making the company's actions, 

808
00:48:45,700 --> 00:48:49,200
transparent bowls internally and
externally, or 

809
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,600
self-organization. 
Then means that we should regard

810
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:56,500
the company as one node of a 
Double letter, that creates an 

811
00:48:56,500 --> 00:48:59,800
environment that lifts in 
together with other companies 

812
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,300
and societal institution. 
So self-organization is now 

813
00:49:03,300 --> 00:49:07,000
really not only what's happening
with the teens inside but what's

814
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:10,400
actually the bigger part of the 
come, if we look at constant 

815
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,500
customer focus, then it means 
like understanding the economic 

816
00:49:14,500 --> 00:49:19,000
economic societal and social 
environment as a customer that 

817
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:22,300
needs permanent attention. 
So sometimes I do a shortcut to 

818
00:49:22,300 --> 00:49:26,300
that and say, well constant 
customer Sing, that sense means 

819
00:49:26,300 --> 00:49:30,400
we also take the planet as one 
of the stakeholders, and then 

820
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:34,900
continuous learning, then means 
learning continuously from and 

821
00:49:34,900 --> 00:49:38,700
West Society to make the whole 
world, a better place. 

822
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:43,800
So, again, it's the same values.
But now, we really mall with the

823
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:47,300
shift to what's our external 
wall responsibility. 

824
00:49:47,300 --> 00:49:50,600
In the ecosystem, we are living 
in as a company. 

825
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,000
Thank you for the plug of this 
sustainability angle. 

826
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,800
So I really love It the way you 
explained and using the same 

827
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,400
four values. 
You mentioned. 

828
00:49:58,400 --> 00:50:03,000
Transparency, self-organization,
constant customer focus and 

829
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:05,800
continuous learning. 
I have one interest about this 

830
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:09,900
transparency because I myself 
have experienced in non 

831
00:50:09,900 --> 00:50:13,200
transparent company faces, very 
transparent company and its 

832
00:50:13,200 --> 00:50:16,300
really totally different. 
In a transparent company where 

833
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,400
you have access to all the 
information, you could even make

834
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:22,800
sense of why certain decisions 
are made pick up a quote that 

835
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,500
you mentioned in the book from 
Michael Herman saying, Troubles 

836
00:50:25,500 --> 00:50:29,800
can be bounded by transparency 
so I like you to maybe elaborate

837
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:32,900
on this angle because I can see 
this is probably one of the 

838
00:50:32,900 --> 00:50:36,200
inside that distinguish between 
non-transparency versus 

839
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,700
transparency. 
Why is it such the case that 

840
00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:42,500
sometimes troubles is because of
the boundary of transparency? 

841
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:48,100
Well, the one thing is that we 
cannot solve the problem if we 

842
00:50:48,100 --> 00:50:52,300
don't know about it. 
And so if we keep hiding stuff 

843
00:50:52,300 --> 00:50:56,700
like any kinds of trouble so 
far, Problems, then they will 

844
00:50:56,700 --> 00:50:59,400
sit there. 
Most of, that's at least my 

845
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:02,100
experience. 
If we have a problem and it sits

846
00:51:02,100 --> 00:51:03,900
there, it typically doesn't go 
away. 

847
00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:08,000
Most often it gets bigger, there
might be some exceptions, but 

848
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:12,400
most of the time, a small 
problem got bigger over time. 

849
00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:17,300
So we need to be transparent, 
maybe it's also has to do with 

850
00:51:17,300 --> 00:51:19,800
courage. 
So we need to be courageous 

851
00:51:20,100 --> 00:51:25,300
about stating the problems and 
therefore, then being able To 

852
00:51:25,300 --> 00:51:28,300
address them. 
The thing is, again, we are 

853
00:51:28,300 --> 00:51:31,700
coming to the passion again. 
I mentioned that before, but 

854
00:51:31,700 --> 00:51:36,700
what I see as well, but people 
point out problems, but then you

855
00:51:36,700 --> 00:51:39,200
find out, nobody has a passion 
to solve it. 

856
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:43,900
So then we really have to accept
that a problem. 

857
00:51:44,200 --> 00:51:47,700
Maybe that's not a pauper to us 
and then we should also start 

858
00:51:47,700 --> 00:51:52,300
stating it as a problem, if 
that's the case, or we keep 

859
00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:55,900
stating it as a problem, when 
then we need to Ask why has 

860
00:51:55,900 --> 00:51:59,600
nobody to Passion to work on it?
Maybe it's not so pressing. 

861
00:52:00,300 --> 00:52:03,800
I also had an episode with Jim 
Benson not so long ago and he 

862
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,500
shared this concept called obey.
Yeah, people put all the 

863
00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:09,900
information in one place so that
everyone gets informed of 

864
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:13,100
anything that happens within the
project or maybe the department 

865
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:15,800
and team and so you can make 
informed decision what the 

866
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:18,800
problems are and what the 
solutions you decision records, 

867
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:20,800
probably. 
I think it's also an interesting

868
00:52:20,800 --> 00:52:24,100
concept that I learned from Jim.
So you thought thank you so much

869
00:52:24,100 --> 00:52:26,300
for sharing all this. 
I think there are so many 

870
00:52:26,300 --> 00:52:27,900
information. 
It's like an information 

871
00:52:28,000 --> 00:52:29,800
overload because there are so 
many techniques that you 

872
00:52:29,800 --> 00:52:32,800
mentioned the values. 
And the principles, I will refer

873
00:52:32,800 --> 00:52:36,000
people to read your book if they
want to know more about all 

874
00:52:36,000 --> 00:52:38,700
these different techniques. 
Unfortunately, we have to wrap 

875
00:52:38,700 --> 00:52:41,100
up pretty soon. 
But before I let you go, I have 

876
00:52:41,100 --> 00:52:44,200
one last question that I 
normally ask for all my guests, 

877
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,200
which is to share this thing 
called three technical 

878
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,000
leadership wisdom. 
So it's like some kind of advice

879
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,500
that you want to give to the 
listeners for them to also 

880
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:54,100
reflect and maybe adopt if it 
makes sense for them. 

881
00:52:54,300 --> 00:52:57,100
So maybe If you can share, what 
are your three technical 

882
00:52:57,100 --> 00:53:00,600
leadership is them? 
Well, I would think the first 

883
00:53:00,600 --> 00:53:04,700
thing is you need to keep 
learning so your Learning 

884
00:53:04,700 --> 00:53:07,600
Journey, never finishes and 
maybe that's a he thing, 

885
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:12,000
especially for leaders because 
sometimes we think we are now in

886
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:14,600
a leading position. 
And therefore, this means we 

887
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:18,100
never at all, which definitely 
is not true. 

888
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:23,700
So we have to keep learning also
from the people, we are leading,

889
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,900
maybe the Will thing is you 
should be aware that we are only

890
00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:32,600
a leader because somebody's 
following us so there is no 

891
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:35,600
leadership By Appointment 
really. 

892
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,800
Because if nobody follows and 
they don't trust us. 

893
00:53:39,800 --> 00:53:43,200
As a leader, they will find 
their way around us. 

894
00:53:43,500 --> 00:53:47,100
This of course, is saying a 
waste of time of everyone. 

895
00:53:47,100 --> 00:53:51,600
It's my own waste of time 
because I tried to be beneficial

896
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,700
for my team but my team doesn't 
want that. 

897
00:53:54,900 --> 00:53:58,600
Because it doesn't feel it's my 
team because it's not following.

898
00:53:58,900 --> 00:54:02,200
So it's also a waste of my own 
time and of course, the time of 

899
00:54:02,200 --> 00:54:06,100
the team as well. 
So there is no leading without 

900
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:09,200
following. 
And then probably because we 

901
00:54:09,200 --> 00:54:14,000
have talked so much around that,
which is Passion Bound by 

902
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,000
responsibility. 
So also the people you are 

903
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,000
leading. 
And the way you're working 

904
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:24,700
yourself, and sure that people 
can follow their passion that 

905
00:54:24,900 --> 00:54:28,200
And bound by the responsibility 
that it cannot be something 

906
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:31,600
that's completely outside of 
what the company is doing, or 

907
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:33,600
what's important for us and so 
on. 

908
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,200
So it's not that it's going by 
wild. 

909
00:54:36,300 --> 00:54:40,500
But if you are working with the 
passion of people and which is 

910
00:54:40,500 --> 00:54:45,300
also true for yourself, then I 
think everything is possible. 

911
00:54:45,900 --> 00:54:49,200
Well, I really like the leader. 
You cannot be without any 

912
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,600
followers, so it's not only by 
appointment actually, you need 

913
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:55,700
to make sure that people can and
do what To follow your, maybe 

914
00:54:55,700 --> 00:54:57,200
comes back to the consulate 
soon. 

915
00:54:57,400 --> 00:54:59,600
They consent to have you as a 
leader as well. 

916
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:01,400
Right there are two. 
Yes. 

917
00:55:02,100 --> 00:55:04,900
So thank you so much Utah for 
your time, so for people who 

918
00:55:04,900 --> 00:55:07,800
would like to follow your work 
or maybe reach out to you if 

919
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,300
they want to ask further 
questions, is there a place 

920
00:55:10,300 --> 00:55:14,300
where they can reach out? 
Well, the easiest is to reach me

921
00:55:14,300 --> 00:55:19,000
on Twitter and my Twitter handle
is you textiles of first name, 

922
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:22,100
last name, one word, or on 
LinkedIn. 

923
00:55:22,100 --> 00:55:24,700
And I should be easy to be found
there also. 

924
00:55:24,900 --> 00:55:27,300
Just with my name there, that 
boasts fine. 

925
00:55:27,900 --> 00:55:30,400
Thank you so much for your time 
and your time for explaining all

926
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,000
this concept. 
I really like the bossa nova. 

927
00:55:33,100 --> 00:55:35,900
So the different types of 
meanings that can come up out of

928
00:55:35,900 --> 00:55:37,700
that term. 
So thank you so much for sharing

929
00:55:37,700 --> 00:55:39,800
today. 
Thank you for having me. 

930
00:55:42,500 --> 00:55:45,700
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying, right 

931
00:55:45,700 --> 00:55:48,200
until the end if you highly 
enjoyed it. 

932
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:50,700
I would appreciate if you share 
it with your friends and 

933
00:55:50,700 --> 00:55:53,700
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

934
00:55:53,700 --> 00:55:55,700
this episode. 
And if you are new to the 

935
00:55:55,700 --> 00:55:58,700
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

936
00:55:58,700 --> 00:56:01,700
review and feedback. 
It helps me a lot in order to 

937
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:05,000
grow this podcast better. 
You can also find the full show 

938
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:08,300
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page at tackling 

939
00:56:08,300 --> 00:56:10,500
journal. 
The death website, including the

940
00:56:10,500 --> 00:56:14,700
full transcript Stink words and 
links to the resources mention 

941
00:56:14,900 --> 00:56:18,100
from the conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

942
00:56:18,100 --> 00:56:20,400
subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on package. 

943
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:24,000
You know, dot f to get notified 
for any future episodes. 

944
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:26,900
Stay tuned for the next package,
you know, episode. 

945
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:28,800
And until then, goodbye.