1 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:05,300 For many people who like me grow from being very good engineer to 2 00:00:05,300 --> 00:00:07,900 becoming a leader. You have to remember that 3 00:00:07,900 --> 00:00:11,000 leading orders is leading yourself first. 4 00:00:11,300 --> 00:00:13,000 That means you need to add some point. 5 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,700 Really sit down and understand your own character. 6 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,600 How you regulate emotions would behaviors? 7 00:00:18,600 --> 00:00:21,400 You have how you communicate this Behavior. 8 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,300 We will girls, how you handle difficult, conversation and 9 00:00:24,300 --> 00:00:27,100 difficult decisions. That's a very big work of 10 00:00:27,100 --> 00:00:29,700 self-awareness and you should always do that. 11 00:00:34,300 --> 00:00:36,900 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya. 12 00:00:36,900 --> 00:00:40,700 We Rollin. And you're listening to the tech 13 00:00:40,700 --> 00:00:44,500 lead journal the show where I'll be bringing you the greatest 14 00:00:44,500 --> 00:00:47,900 technical leaders practitioners and thought leaders in the 15 00:00:47,900 --> 00:00:53,000 industry to discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that 16 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:56,100 we all can learn and apply to build a highly performing 17 00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:00,200 technical team and to make an impact in your personal work. 18 00:01:00,700 --> 00:01:09,400 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello and welcome to the very 19 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,800 first episode of the tie clip Journal. 20 00:01:12,300 --> 00:01:15,200 I'm very, very excited to kick. Start the show with my very 21 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:18,900 first guest Jerome put of in Jerome is a respected friend of 22 00:01:18,900 --> 00:01:22,100 mine and a great mentor for all his massive wisdom and 23 00:01:22,100 --> 00:01:25,600 experiences, especially in the technology and startups. 24 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:29,400 He has been a Serial, CTO co-founding, multiple startups, 25 00:01:29,500 --> 00:01:32,700 and he has had multiple successful exits in the past. 26 00:01:33,300 --> 00:01:36,500 The last few years Jerome has been working at Google cloud and 27 00:01:36,500 --> 00:01:40,500 Amazon AWS to help startups grow, and make the most of cloud 28 00:01:40,500 --> 00:01:44,100 Technologies in this interview. I discussed with him, various 29 00:01:44,100 --> 00:01:47,500 aspects of technical leadership, especially in the startup World 30 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:51,000 ranging, from his lessons, learned dealing with investors, 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:54,700 hiring and building great technical team, building vision 32 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,600 and Jerome's rule of 50%, which can be very insightful for those 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:02,300 of you who are building a start-up or product out there. 34 00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:06,000 He also shared interesting anecdotes of his experience 35 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,500 working with different cultures around the world. 36 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,300 So let's get started with this episode and I hope that you all 37 00:02:12,300 --> 00:02:18,400 enjoy it. Hi Jerome. 38 00:02:18,700 --> 00:02:20,800 Thank you for being part of the technique Journal. 39 00:02:21,100 --> 00:02:23,600 Jerome is one of my respected colleague. 40 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:27,800 He has over 30 years of Korea. Experience, has been a Serial 41 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,300 ctOS in multiple startups and successful exit. 42 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:32,700 He has worked in multiple countries. 43 00:02:32,900 --> 00:02:35,800 Trees and culture. He's been traveling around the 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,700 region, which is interesting enough around Southeast Asian. 45 00:02:38,700 --> 00:02:42,500 He has also been in the west Silicon Valley and in Europe, 46 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,300 and lately. He is working in multinational 47 00:02:45,300 --> 00:02:50,000 Cloud companies, helping that up to grow and to be successful. 48 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:53,400 So, welcome, Jerome, Henry. Thanks for having me. 49 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:57,000 Always a pleasure to chat with you Jerome to start this 50 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:58,700 episode. Can you tell me a little bit 51 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:02,700 more about yourself and your experience right eye. 52 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:05,500 I kind of get a good into computers when I was very young, 53 00:03:05,500 --> 00:03:09,700 like, many people, because I wanted to do video games, and I 54 00:03:09,708 --> 00:03:13,300 got lucky because my parents couldn't really afford video 55 00:03:13,300 --> 00:03:14,900 games. They could only afford a cheap 56 00:03:14,900 --> 00:03:17,300 computer or so. I sort of had to build them. 57 00:03:17,700 --> 00:03:20,100 And one thing I've told you there, I ended up taking a 58 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:23,900 computer science, graduated in Computer Engineering, and I've 59 00:03:23,900 --> 00:03:26,900 started working in a few companies mostly large scale 60 00:03:26,900 --> 00:03:28,800 companies. Like, I are both or Alcatel. 61 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:31,600 I got lucky. I got an opportunity to go to 62 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,400 the Silicon Valley, and I worked there for a few years. 63 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,600 I got bitten by the starter Berg. 64 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,800 And after I left the Silicon Valley 2000, I started creating 65 00:03:40,800 --> 00:03:42,800 companies with friends and colleagues. 66 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:44,800 And even my own brother had some point. 67 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,500 I haven't really stopped. We got successful a couple of 68 00:03:47,500 --> 00:03:50,200 times. And then also, after I decided 69 00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,600 that startups were really good. I liked, I've been working 70 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,900 around startups for various and big cloud providers. 71 00:03:55,900 --> 00:03:58,600 I've been also working in multiple countries in Asia. 72 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:02,300 I've been in Asia essentially, since 2000 in various countries 73 00:04:02,300 --> 00:04:04,200 Wilson. So very interesting Journey. 74 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,500 Yeah, that's very interesting. I mean looking at your career, 75 00:04:06,500 --> 00:04:08,900 there are so many things that you have seen. 76 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:12,100 You have experienced not only in terms of Technologies also 77 00:04:12,100 --> 00:04:15,000 dealing with the people, right? So can you tell us a little bit 78 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,000 more about your highlights? What are the biggest highlights 79 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,200 that you have in your career? The biggest highlight. 80 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,300 The thing that lets me really the deepest impression, which is 81 00:04:23,300 --> 00:04:26,900 why I sort of tried to replicate it multiple times with the 82 00:04:26,900 --> 00:04:31,300 exhilarating time when you're creating your first company and 83 00:04:31,300 --> 00:04:34,400 then you sort of hit. Bottom of the hockey stick and 84 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,000 then everything go crazy. You get this surge of adrenaline 85 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,600 all the time. All of this was very, very new. 86 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,900 I trust and catapulted into these positions that I didn't 87 00:04:43,900 --> 00:04:46,300 really know anything about. So that was really exciting. 88 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,800 I don't think we handled it the best way it was possible. 89 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,900 But at least I learned a lot and this is actually what motivated 90 00:04:52,900 --> 00:04:55,300 me to create more companies after that. 91 00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:59,300 What about some lowlights? I did have one company with 92 00:04:59,300 --> 00:05:03,300 actually a complete failure. We created a new Company around 93 00:05:03,300 --> 00:05:07,400 an ID and very quickly decided he was killed by a very large 94 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,300 company. Basically provided the same 95 00:05:09,300 --> 00:05:12,500 service for free. And I ended up having to cancel 96 00:05:12,500 --> 00:05:14,600 the team. Tell the investors. 97 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:16,900 We were not going to proceed anymore because there was no 98 00:05:16,900 --> 00:05:19,100 business model and managing the best. 99 00:05:19,100 --> 00:05:22,500 I could, that was really a great moment in my life. 100 00:05:22,900 --> 00:05:25,200 Wow. I'm sure that many people also 101 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:27,900 in the startups have experienced failure, but I think every 102 00:05:27,900 --> 00:05:31,200 failure journey is unique and is there lessons learned that you 103 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:33,200 want to share with the audience? Here. 104 00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,700 One of the things I tell everybody in my work today, 105 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:41,200 whichever mental state, you are in today as a CTO of startup. 106 00:05:41,200 --> 00:05:44,100 I've been there before, even if you think you are failing, even 107 00:05:44,100 --> 00:05:46,700 if you think things are going bad, I've been there. 108 00:05:46,700 --> 00:05:49,300 I've also been lucky that it was successful. 109 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,300 Took me a little bit of time to pick the pieces up. 110 00:05:52,300 --> 00:05:55,900 But then also I had a long list of ideas and I basically have a 111 00:05:55,900 --> 00:05:59,500 mental checklist about all the things I should definitely make 112 00:05:59,500 --> 00:06:02,600 sure all before I even start because honestly, this startup 113 00:06:02,700 --> 00:06:04,600 Fail because I really wanted to start up. 114 00:06:04,700 --> 00:06:06,800 I was in a hurry. I didn't really look at the 115 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:08,200 market. I didn't really look at 116 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:09,700 anything. I just thought a, it's a cool 117 00:06:09,700 --> 00:06:10,600 idea. Let's do it. 118 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,800 And I was very ignorant. The next company. 119 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,900 We created, we explore the market and we did a lot more 120 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:18,300 research making sure that it was actually a very good 121 00:06:18,300 --> 00:06:20,900 opportunity. Researching the market, finding 122 00:06:20,900 --> 00:06:25,400 the right business model in a sense and maybe assessing the 123 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,200 Technologies. Yes. 124 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,900 Well, I mean we had been very lucky my first doctor with a 125 00:06:29,900 --> 00:06:34,500 very talented team that counselor we You are a bit lucky 126 00:06:34,500 --> 00:06:37,600 because none of us really knew the industry or knew the market. 127 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,700 We just had a good feeling that it was a good idea and we were 128 00:06:40,700 --> 00:06:43,600 able to navigate the obstacles and at the end of the day the 129 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:48,000 startup that emerged after four years with very different from 130 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,800 the one we had envisioned to me. This is actually something I 131 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:54,300 very often tell people who are looking for funding, you will 132 00:06:54,300 --> 00:06:57,900 talk to investors and they will evaluate the value of your idea 133 00:06:57,900 --> 00:07:00,600 and maybe the value of your technology, but first of all, 134 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:04,700 they will evaluate your ability to Navigate the future because 135 00:07:04,700 --> 00:07:08,900 they know that what you are showing them, the idea and also 136 00:07:08,900 --> 00:07:11,000 the financial projections. The only thing you know is that 137 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:14,100 this is incorrect. This is not going to happen this 138 00:07:14,100 --> 00:07:17,500 way. So your credibility as a person 139 00:07:17,500 --> 00:07:21,300 is important, and having had failures before is actually 140 00:07:21,300 --> 00:07:24,200 something that is also somehow playing in your favor. 141 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,200 Of course, if you were created the next Facebook wall of, this 142 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,400 is mood, but in fact, most startups do not end up being 143 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,400 Facebook most start. Ups and end up being not 144 00:07:34,400 --> 00:07:37,300 multi-billion dollar businesses, but multi-million dollar 145 00:07:37,300 --> 00:07:39,700 businesses. And in fact, this is actually 146 00:07:39,800 --> 00:07:41,300 most likely what's going to happen to you. 147 00:07:41,300 --> 00:07:44,200 And investors, don't always look at the next unicorn. 148 00:07:44,200 --> 00:07:45,900 They also look at this sort of companies. 149 00:07:45,900 --> 00:07:49,800 So your ability to evolve, the ability to Pivot your ability to 150 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,200 negotiate are very important when you talk to the investors, 151 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,500 how can you show this side of yours? 152 00:07:55,500 --> 00:07:58,000 Like showing that you have credibility, you have learned 153 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,600 from your failure and show that you can deal with any of the 154 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:04,100 future uncertainty. These investors will ask you 155 00:08:04,108 --> 00:08:06,600 questions. I've been in this situation when 156 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:10,700 you have to face investors, you are being evaluated. 157 00:08:10,700 --> 00:08:14,000 But also one thing for me is you also evaluating the investor. 158 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,500 I tend to think that this is something investors should know. 159 00:08:17,500 --> 00:08:18,900 So they will look at your profile. 160 00:08:18,900 --> 00:08:21,400 They will ask have you created companies before? 161 00:08:21,400 --> 00:08:23,800 Are you cereal founder? What if they will do their 162 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,700 homework on you? If they don't, it's usually not 163 00:08:26,700 --> 00:08:30,700 a really good sign lately. One of my friends was going 164 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:34,500 through some fundraising but exactly This experience, he went 165 00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:38,100 to see an investor or from a very reputable firm and it was 166 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:40,900 facing somebody with a don't want to see your slideshow. 167 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,400 Your PowerPoint will tell me about your team and he had to 168 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:47,300 jump to slide 12 or slide 6 in that case and we asked him about 169 00:08:47,300 --> 00:08:49,500 something else. And we had to book go back to 170 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:51,600 slide 3. And then something else and yet, 171 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,000 no, slide. What they really wanted, was to 172 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,400 know the quality of his team. If he was prepared to handle 173 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,000 questions, and they did not really want to hear a prepared 174 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,500 speech and the prepared pitch. They just wanted To know how 175 00:09:03,500 --> 00:09:06,300 deep we wanted them. Deep in you is stuff and how 176 00:09:06,300 --> 00:09:09,400 prepare Lee was and how we could handle or discussions and how 177 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:11,300 his team of co-founder was structured. 178 00:09:11,600 --> 00:09:15,100 And that was the mark of a really deep knowledgeable 179 00:09:15,100 --> 00:09:17,000 investors. Most of the girls go. 180 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:19,300 Okay. I look at your page and do I 181 00:09:19,300 --> 00:09:22,600 believe in your power point and it's actually not the best 182 00:09:22,700 --> 00:09:25,000 investor. You can have by being who you 183 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:26,800 are. You can just show your 184 00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,900 experience and you have to rely on the investor to sort of do 185 00:09:29,900 --> 00:09:31,900 their homework on the outside. You cannot just go and see. 186 00:09:31,900 --> 00:09:34,300 Let me tell you. You know, for one hour about 187 00:09:34,300 --> 00:09:37,500 what kind of person I am before you judge my business idea, 188 00:09:37,900 --> 00:09:39,700 right? You mentioned something about 189 00:09:39,700 --> 00:09:42,500 the investors, assessing your team, right? 190 00:09:42,500 --> 00:09:45,200 Like the quality or maybe The credibility behind the team. 191 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:48,200 And I know you have like a very good skill in hiring. 192 00:09:48,200 --> 00:09:51,400 People hiring talented and good quality people. 193 00:09:51,800 --> 00:09:54,800 Maybe you can share with us. What are some of the tips for 194 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,700 hiring, especially in a start-up, right? 195 00:09:56,700 --> 00:10:00,400 What do you look for in terms of quality of a candidate may be 196 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:03,900 skill, set, or maybe Behavior. Other related stuffs. 197 00:10:04,500 --> 00:10:07,400 First of all, I think being a start-up or not being a 198 00:10:07,408 --> 00:10:10,900 start-up, you still try to hire the best quality. 199 00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:13,900 You can inform what you really want when you are hiring for a 200 00:10:13,908 --> 00:10:16,100 small tea. You want to hire somebody with a 201 00:10:16,108 --> 00:10:18,600 bit multi-talented. Somebody you're going to be 202 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:21,200 working very closely. So you need to have a 203 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,500 personality fit. You also want to hire somebody 204 00:10:24,500 --> 00:10:28,100 with not just because they are great at the technology you need 205 00:10:28,100 --> 00:10:30,600 right now. Just fill a technology Gap, but 206 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,600 you want to hire people when you feel are going. 207 00:10:32,700 --> 00:10:36,300 Be able to grow with you and grow with the company and bring 208 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:39,300 additional knowledge with. So that actually is very hard. 209 00:10:39,500 --> 00:10:41,800 This is true. Regardless of whether you're in 210 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,100 a start-up or not. I think the idea tional features 211 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:48,500 you need for somebody is that they're able to carry their 212 00:10:48,500 --> 00:10:51,300 weight individually without very much supervision and you want 213 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:53,700 them to be passionate some point. 214 00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:56,900 If your company grows, you're going to start having to handle 215 00:10:56,900 --> 00:11:00,700 people who might be a lot less passionate about the product, 216 00:11:00,700 --> 00:11:04,200 and you start hiring people for whom Umm, this is just a job and 217 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,800 I want to highlight that even people who do a job because it's 218 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,300 a job can be extremely good and productive but they might not be 219 00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,300 as motivated as you are. And also actually they will be 220 00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:18,300 unmotivated, very easily by things. 221 00:11:18,300 --> 00:11:20,200 You don't even consider important. 222 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:23,700 So to give you an example many years ago, in my first startup, 223 00:11:23,900 --> 00:11:27,000 we hide some really, really good people at the beginning, and one 224 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:30,900 of the person was pretty like, the family and they had to pick 225 00:11:30,900 --> 00:11:32,100 up the kids. At some point. 226 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,200 They had to Even six regardless. And for one of my co-founder was 227 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:38,400 very much obsessed by this company. 228 00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:41,200 You always was a little girl. So I had to do a lot of 229 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,900 negotiation to make him an exam was normal, but on the other 230 00:11:43,900 --> 00:11:47,300 hand one day this employee came up and we had forgotten to pay 231 00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:50,100 one of his expenses. And the reason why we forgot to 232 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:53,000 pay one of these expensive was because the company was very 233 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:56,500 going through some hard time and we are still, like didn't even 234 00:11:56,500 --> 00:11:59,500 know if we are going to make it the next five months, right? 235 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,300 So we were so worried. I was handling the bear all the 236 00:12:02,300 --> 00:12:04,300 expenses. Fences everything, we couldn't 237 00:12:04,300 --> 00:12:07,100 afford an accountant. I forgot to read to pay this 238 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:12,300 expands and I'm talking about $10 and the guy came in, in a 239 00:12:12,300 --> 00:12:14,500 meeting and say, you haven't paid my $10. 240 00:12:14,900 --> 00:12:18,500 Wow, and I was very dismissive and I said, come on. 241 00:12:18,500 --> 00:12:21,400 It's just inbox, right? We are talking about important 242 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,000 stuff. That was really, really the 243 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:27,100 wrong thing to say. Because yeah, for me, the 244 00:12:27,108 --> 00:12:29,700 company's my baby and I'm talking about the survival of 245 00:12:29,700 --> 00:12:32,500 the company for him. It's the fact that they need. 246 00:12:32,700 --> 00:12:36,500 Elected to do what I promised that was very important and then 247 00:12:36,500 --> 00:12:39,100 ten dogs and I was very dismissive and was like, Hey, 248 00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:42,300 you know, I'm doing important stuff and you're not and for 249 00:12:42,300 --> 00:12:45,200 him, ten bucks was important. I completely forgot to look at 250 00:12:45,200 --> 00:12:48,800 this, from this point of view. It took me an entire month, get 251 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:52,500 him on the positive side because it was so upset because I was 252 00:12:52,500 --> 00:12:55,700 treating him very dismissively. And for me, it was just like in 253 00:12:55,700 --> 00:12:57,900 the Heat of the Moment. So you have to be very, very 254 00:12:57,900 --> 00:12:59,800 careful. So you need to have people who 255 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:01,900 are at some point when you grow the company, you will have 256 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:03,700 people. However, slightly different 257 00:13:03,700 --> 00:13:06,600 outlook on the company as you. But when you hire your first 258 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,500 employee is you have to have them be passionate and willing 259 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:13,300 to make some sacrifices. So how can you actually like 260 00:13:13,300 --> 00:13:14,900 when you do the interviews, right? 261 00:13:14,900 --> 00:13:17,900 Or when you talk to this person, how can you assess whether their 262 00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:21,800 passion and their personality actually fit with what you find 263 00:13:22,100 --> 00:13:24,100 and what the company is all about. 264 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,300 Really? This is a lot like dating or, 265 00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:29,600 you know, at some point you see, if you click on the human level 266 00:13:30,500 --> 00:13:33,700 and which means that very often when I All you people for my 267 00:13:33,700 --> 00:13:36,200 early roles. I would really go through a 268 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,200 formal set of interviews. But I also, after the interview 269 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:44,400 sat with, with them four coffees that with them, make them stay 270 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,100 over lunch, talk about life. And you try to gauge the 271 00:13:47,100 --> 00:13:49,700 personality. Also, let them talk about their 272 00:13:49,700 --> 00:13:53,900 past, let them talk about. How would they like, in the 273 00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:57,500 management culture of the hard talk about their own experience? 274 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,800 And I think in the, in a relaxed sitting people tell you a lot 275 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:02,400 more than in the formal interview, sir. 276 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:06,700 Seeing for me. I basically very often did this 277 00:14:06,700 --> 00:14:10,700 for the early early days or you hire people, you know, my third 278 00:14:10,700 --> 00:14:13,300 startup. I actually poached a number of 279 00:14:13,300 --> 00:14:16,300 developers, but I had worked before with and then and you 280 00:14:16,308 --> 00:14:19,100 know, I already knew we shared a lot of values. 281 00:14:20,100 --> 00:14:22,300 Make sense. There is no magic formula, 282 00:14:22,300 --> 00:14:24,500 right? It really is a very personal 283 00:14:24,500 --> 00:14:26,100 thing. Yeah. 284 00:14:26,100 --> 00:14:31,000 So this hiring one person is one aspect and one challenge, right? 285 00:14:31,100 --> 00:14:33,700 But in talking about hiring a team right where you have 286 00:14:33,700 --> 00:14:38,200 multiple people with their different characteristics, their 287 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,900 way of working. So how do you ensure that? 288 00:14:41,100 --> 00:14:43,800 You can build a solid and effective engineering team that 289 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,400 can work with each other? I think you need to have a clear 290 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:51,000 culture. So I used To very quickly, very 291 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:53,700 early in the process. First of all, I used to have 292 00:14:53,700 --> 00:14:57,700 always all my engineering when your startup or five people 293 00:14:57,900 --> 00:15:00,300 having all the engineering and interview. 294 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:03,100 Somebody is very easy, but I would say, the team that going 295 00:15:03,100 --> 00:15:07,100 to work with this person should be in charge of hiring the 296 00:15:07,100 --> 00:15:10,600 person even though you have the final say, so, first of all, I 297 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:12,900 would cover the basics about culture. 298 00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,000 Also very fun. I would do an interview where I 299 00:15:15,008 --> 00:15:17,900 would like to see you with the like, in management culture, how 300 00:15:17,900 --> 00:15:20,400 they like to work with result. Mate, I would be like to work 301 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:22,700 with management because they wouldn't be managing them. 302 00:15:22,700 --> 00:15:26,400 So I wanted to understand Zelda aspect of their personality, but 303 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,800 when it comes to, then the rest of the team and the competencies 304 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,200 and the technical fit, I would have my engineering team 305 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:35,100 interview. Then there are two reasons for 306 00:15:35,100 --> 00:15:38,700 that first of all, because I didn't always have all the time. 307 00:15:38,800 --> 00:15:43,400 The other part is you making the engineering team by hiring the 308 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,100 people themselves, but they have the responsibility to make it 309 00:15:46,100 --> 00:15:49,000 work without wise. It's too easy to blame the bus. 310 00:15:49,500 --> 00:15:51,000 We hide this process on. I don't know. 311 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,600 Why, because he, or she doesn't do this X, Y and Z, but it's not 312 00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:59,200 my problem. So actually by making them in 313 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,100 charge of the hiring, you actually Empower them to take 314 00:16:02,100 --> 00:16:05,600 the people who are fit you as a manager should still keep veto. 315 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:10,100 Because I found in my experience that engineer's, the team will 316 00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:13,600 not look at it with management. I and you as a manager are 317 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,300 really watching out for, is this person going to grow? 318 00:16:17,700 --> 00:16:22,300 What is person going to bring? Beyond immediate ability to 319 00:16:22,300 --> 00:16:27,700 write this code or design this system and I did veto my team's 320 00:16:27,700 --> 00:16:29,800 decision a few times. Right? 321 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,200 Because I felt that the candidate overall didn't have 322 00:16:33,200 --> 00:16:36,800 the potential to evolve beyond what was just being a skull that 323 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,300 specific position, right? So speaking about the team right 324 00:16:40,300 --> 00:16:44,200 after the hiring obviously you have a bunch of people working 325 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,500 as part of the team. How do you ensure that they go 326 00:16:47,500 --> 00:16:50,900 towards the same direction? We're working towards the same 327 00:16:50,900 --> 00:16:53,800 vision of the company, building a great product, with good 328 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:56,300 quality. Any tips about that. 329 00:16:56,600 --> 00:17:00,000 First of all, for me, the very early when I always had it in 330 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:00,900 all. The companies. 331 00:17:00,900 --> 00:17:03,900 Who is they onboarding process? Right? 332 00:17:03,900 --> 00:17:06,200 It sounds silly. But I actually did have an 333 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:10,099 onboarding process. Even if it's just say, because 334 00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:15,000 Jimmy and is going to be your body and ask him any question, 335 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,599 but I always had the process because mean talk about Yells 336 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:22,200 Rock developers. They need to know how the system 337 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,800 works the need to understand what has already been built. 338 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,500 They need to understand the process. 339 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,800 You will be surprised but I have had candidates that I was 340 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:34,000 interviewing for four positions and they asked me, do I get a 341 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,900 laptop and I was like, what do you mean you don't get it? 342 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,800 Of course, to give you that top and giving you the tools to work 343 00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,200 why I asked you, do you ask this question and they told me and my 344 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:47,600 previous employer expecting me to use my own laptop and they 345 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:49,200 expected me to buy my own office. 346 00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:52,100 This software, I found this ridiculous, but apparently it 347 00:17:52,100 --> 00:17:54,200 still happens. And so for me, it's part of it. 348 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,700 Here's your machine. Here's your tools. 349 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,800 Here is how you compile code. Here is, are you you go? 350 00:17:59,900 --> 00:18:04,100 I am I would have them spend time with developers in order to 351 00:18:04,100 --> 00:18:06,800 get to know the whole tool set the whole process. 352 00:18:07,100 --> 00:18:11,600 And I will usually have a discussion with them about how 353 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,900 we have one-on-ones on a regular basis and trying to explain to 354 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:18,000 them some of the philosophy of why we doing this. 355 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,200 What is the company of With, with problem, we are solving and 356 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,300 trying to sell the vision really leadership. 357 00:18:25,300 --> 00:18:28,100 Process Management. Leaders are instilling the 358 00:18:28,100 --> 00:18:31,400 vision to the team. And to be, there are some pretty 359 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,200 to the clients. But really, for me it was really 360 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,800 just about getting them to understand where you come from 361 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,900 because now, okay, they, you know, they say they're going to 362 00:18:40,900 --> 00:18:42,900 do this school work and write code. 363 00:18:42,900 --> 00:18:45,800 We've all these good people and having fun with this fancy 364 00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:48,800 technology, but beyond that, they have to really understand 365 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:51,900 who the Clients are, what problem you're solving be able 366 00:18:51,900 --> 00:18:54,900 to think in their shoes. And this only comes if they are 367 00:18:54,900 --> 00:18:59,200 very familiar with the problem. So really having a structured 368 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:02,500 onboarding even when you all five people team and having 369 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,300 regular sessions of hey, you know, let's play. 370 00:19:05,900 --> 00:19:09,000 Let's imagine your client. This is what problem we are 371 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:12,200 solving for you. Okay, so like simulating a 372 00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:16,500 customer problem and asking the team how to handle those kind of 373 00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:18,800 things. Yes, for example, but also 374 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:22,700 really Once a month, when I was a small company, we would spend 375 00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,600 a Friday afternoon just brainstorming about situation or 376 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,500 reviewing feedback from customers and trying to 377 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:32,600 understand the scenarios and trying to see in the greater 378 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,500 scheme of thing. How this was really a problem 379 00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,300 for such and such person. Lot of this was the I like 380 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:40,300 role-playing. So it was kind of fun. 381 00:19:40,300 --> 00:19:43,500 We did this by pretending. We have our client and trying to 382 00:19:43,500 --> 00:19:46,000 understand what motivates them going over. 383 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,600 Some discussions, we had going over. 384 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:51,200 Okay, I would very often comment. 385 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:53,900 Say a team. I talked to this customer and 386 00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:57,500 this is what they told me. Now, let's hash out some 387 00:19:57,500 --> 00:20:00,000 potential discussion. We will usually end up by 388 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:00,500 saying. Okay. 389 00:20:00,500 --> 00:20:03,600 So this is the answer. We want to be able to give how 390 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:07,400 can we then build the product features in order to be able to 391 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,100 give that answer, right? But I found it was very 392 00:20:10,100 --> 00:20:13,600 interesting way to evolve the products and it would get people 393 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,500 to reading, by in nowadays. It's very fashionable and it's 394 00:20:17,500 --> 00:20:19,200 not a bad idea. You don't lose fashionable. 395 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:22,100 Did you know in the bad science? But people talk about 396 00:20:22,100 --> 00:20:27,700 storytelling lat and that was actually maybe our early sort of 397 00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,600 informal way of doing storytelling. 398 00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:31,900 Yeah, and also I find that kind of exercise. 399 00:20:31,900 --> 00:20:34,500 Sometimes, give you another perspective or in terms of 400 00:20:34,500 --> 00:20:38,600 ideas, especially from the people who build the product. 401 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,200 Maybe they find a new ways of using the products, even like in 402 00:20:42,200 --> 00:20:45,900 New interactions of how user customer can use the product. 403 00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:48,400 Sometimes those kind of things can come out of this 404 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:49,900 brainstorming. Activities. 405 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:52,000 Exactly a little bit. I've been into your 406 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,200 presentations talking about building a startup engineering 407 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,500 product. This presentation talks about 408 00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,500 from zero skill to planet-scale, right? 409 00:21:01,900 --> 00:21:04,500 It's okay and you share us a little bit about this. 410 00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,600 I find it super interesting for people to relate to the story. 411 00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:10,100 We are you right? I've talked about this subject 412 00:21:10,100 --> 00:21:13,900 many times, actually, for me. The whole idea is that you need 413 00:21:13,900 --> 00:21:16,900 to keep an eye. On the question of what you're 414 00:21:16,900 --> 00:21:19,100 focusing on the means you are mobilizing. 415 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:22,300 In the effort you are putting. So, for example, today, you're 416 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:25,100 bombarded by messages about technology. 417 00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:27,800 Yes. So search for Content, 418 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,300 programming method is the best you are nothing. 419 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:33,800 If you are not using this programming language, or this 420 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,800 kind of database is the future. And if you are using an older 421 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,400 kind of database, then, you know, you're dead in the water 422 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:44,100 before you even start. It's a very strong messaging and 423 00:21:44,100 --> 00:21:47,900 very often people tend to select a collection of Technologies 424 00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:51,100 even before Actually trying to understand if they are really 425 00:21:51,100 --> 00:21:54,200 useful for that. So my message is always did not 426 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,100 get distracted because when you are a company, you are not 427 00:21:57,100 --> 00:21:59,900 building a technology, most of the time, you are actually 428 00:21:59,900 --> 00:22:02,600 building a business and technology is actually just 429 00:22:02,600 --> 00:22:04,800 supporting your business. Unless right? 430 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,600 You are building the technology and if you are building the next 431 00:22:08,700 --> 00:22:10,400 running language, yeah. Okay, sure. 432 00:22:10,500 --> 00:22:13,600 But if you are having something well said technology is very 433 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,300 strong component like an e-commerce shop or maybe some 434 00:22:17,300 --> 00:22:21,200 software that will read X. Is and be able to interpret, it 435 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,300 better than a human technology is very strong component. 436 00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:27,100 But what you are really selling is medical diagnosis. 437 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,600 What you are really saying. If you have an e-commerce shop 438 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,700 is not the ability to click on the button and pay by credit 439 00:22:32,700 --> 00:22:35,000 card board. You are enabling people is to 440 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:39,100 basically create shop from their home, or you are enabling 441 00:22:39,100 --> 00:22:41,900 sellers to make money, and you take a cut. 442 00:22:41,900 --> 00:22:46,000 You are really just not building a very powerful database for 443 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,100 articles. All right, so you have to be 444 00:22:48,100 --> 00:22:50,900 very conscious of that. Very often I can see that 445 00:22:50,900 --> 00:22:53,100 earlier. Founders and co-founders, really 446 00:22:53,100 --> 00:22:56,900 focus too much on picking technologies that they are not 447 00:22:56,900 --> 00:23:00,200 comfortable with or just because they read that, it's the cool 448 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:02,500 thing. My first message is when you 449 00:23:02,500 --> 00:23:05,400 start a company, the best technology you should pick is 450 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,400 the one you are comfortable with right? 451 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,100 Not believe the Sirens of whichever programming language, 452 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,700 do whatever you are comfortable with today's programming 453 00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:18,100 languages. Today's databases are largely 454 00:23:18,100 --> 00:23:21,900 enough rig, Less of their maximum capacity. 455 00:23:21,900 --> 00:23:24,100 You are actually going to not be there at all. 456 00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:28,500 So anything you master is enough, when you reach a few 457 00:23:28,500 --> 00:23:30,900 million to a few million users of then, you know, you'll be the 458 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:33,300 hit the limits of what you originally did. 459 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,500 But for your first 200,000 to few million users, really being 460 00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:39,300 in your comfort zone, is what matters. 461 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,900 And what about the scale? Obviously, when you starting up 462 00:23:42,900 --> 00:23:46,400 your scale is kind of small and you will grow in terms of number 463 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,000 of users number of traffic to your application. 464 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,300 To your website, right? And for a startup team. 465 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:54,500 How do you solve this scaling problem? 466 00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:58,100 Do you start by solving for a small scale first or you build a 467 00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:02,400 design in such a way that it can handle a large scale in the life 468 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:05,500 of your topic? You always have five factors 469 00:24:05,500 --> 00:24:08,800 that you have to balance. You have cost, you have 470 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,000 reliability. You have performance, you have 471 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,600 scale or how we manage the scalability, and what I call 472 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:20,000 Operations, which is the ability of making releases very From the 473 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,700 ICD having automatic testing and not all of these factors are 474 00:24:23,700 --> 00:24:25,500 always important at the same time. 475 00:24:25,500 --> 00:24:27,700 So for example, if you are very young starter. 476 00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:31,600 Typically, you're very worried about costs and you're going to 477 00:24:31,608 --> 00:24:36,400 focus on reliability because you typically want to have your 478 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,000 first results have a good experience and I don't think 479 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,900 really should care about scaling and performance and that's job 480 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:45,300 selling performance. But typically it's not really a 481 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:49,300 big concern at some point when you start growing, but you Going 482 00:24:49,300 --> 00:24:52,100 to have to focus on different factors, for example, if you 483 00:24:52,100 --> 00:24:55,600 have now funding cost is much less a concern and you start 484 00:24:55,600 --> 00:25:00,000 having users to reliability and performance are now important 485 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:03,500 and scale starts to show in Tim Burton's, and when you are 486 00:25:03,500 --> 00:25:05,800 really much bigger, operation is important. 487 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,100 Performance is key cost will be managed differently. 488 00:25:09,100 --> 00:25:13,100 So every time you have to go through one of these steps and 489 00:25:13,100 --> 00:25:16,800 you have to bring in something in Focus, you will have to make 490 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,400 new technical decisions. You will have to bring New 491 00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,400 products, you will have to make your architectural more 492 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,600 complicated, you know, you're going to have to rebuild your 493 00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,400 technology multiple times and every time you will build it for 494 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,400 the next level, of course, but if you are very experienced, 495 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,000 like I've been in this for a long time, so maybe for me. 496 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:39,300 Well done it a few times. It's easier to architect from 497 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,000 the 04. Something that will be able to 498 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,100 scale into tens of millions of users. 499 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,900 Every time you make this architectural decisions. 500 00:25:46,900 --> 00:25:50,000 You actually usually involve a few more Moving parts. 501 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,200 So you have to maintain them. We typically I would build this. 502 00:25:53,300 --> 00:25:55,600 Okay. I need to deal with from zero to 503 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,200 let's say 100,000 users. But when I reach 50,000 users, I 504 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:02,100 will rebuild for 100,000 to 1 million. 505 00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:05,600 When I reach 500,000. I will rebuild for 10 million 506 00:26:05,900 --> 00:26:08,500 and every time you add a little bit more info so you have to 507 00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:12,800 really really fit the effort and what your software can do to 508 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,500 where you are targeting for the next six months to a year. 509 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,900 I used to call this the Jerome's rule of 50%. 510 00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:22,700 You plan in multiple stages and every time you reach half of 511 00:26:22,700 --> 00:26:26,600 your capacity, you reveal for the next stage, which is usually 512 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:28,400 ten times what you were planning. 513 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,100 So you go from a hundred thousand to a million, to 10 514 00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:32,900 million to 100 million like this. 515 00:26:33,300 --> 00:26:36,300 And every time a fifty thousand five million, five hundred 516 00:26:36,300 --> 00:26:38,600 thousand five million. You rebuilt. 517 00:26:39,300 --> 00:26:42,500 That's very insightful. Jerome's 50% rule. 518 00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,600 Is that correct? Yes, the rule of 50%. 519 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:47,900 That's correct. Okay, and it's very hard. 520 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,600 I mean as a ticket You will understand that maybe better the 521 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:55,300 people who you have to really celebrate Cel this Vision to, I 522 00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:57,800 usually the CEO and the investors because they don't 523 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,300 understand exactly how the technology works. 524 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:04,900 So your CEO is going to say, but Jerome, it works Confucius like 525 00:27:04,900 --> 00:27:07,100 62 little bit and make it better. 526 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,600 And as you take here, usually understand that. 527 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:12,500 It only holds because the foundations are able to support 528 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,800 a certain amount of load. But in order to be beyond that, 529 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,300 you need to rebuild Foundation, but this is really something 530 00:27:18,300 --> 00:27:20,600 that comes. We have deep understanding of 531 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,100 technology and that is. Where are you as a city? 532 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:26,400 You usually I'm going to company, grows. 533 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,600 Your leadership, role goes into not just hiring a team and 534 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,200 making sure you know, the system works and they have the proper 535 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:37,800 onboarding and team culture and there's a lot to talk about 536 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,200 there. But also you still end up having 537 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,300 to manage a ports. You'll see you and your 538 00:27:43,300 --> 00:27:46,400 investors. And to me, it was also equally 539 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,900 equally challenging when I started. 540 00:27:49,100 --> 00:27:52,600 My own companies, I discovered the not only, I had to manage my 541 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,900 employees by an to manage. A lot of other people that I 542 00:27:54,908 --> 00:27:57,000 never really thought. I would have to manage. 543 00:27:57,300 --> 00:28:00,400 And that actually is also something that is very worth 544 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,200 discussing. About, when you get into 545 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,300 leadership position. You have to learn how to pace 546 00:28:06,300 --> 00:28:10,800 yourself, how to explain why you're doing, what you're doing 547 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:12,800 to people who do not fundamentally, understand 548 00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:17,400 technology, and for room, maybe would you do looks mysterious 549 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,700 and not needed. Also, you have to understand, 550 00:28:20,700 --> 00:28:23,400 you have to pace yourself. You have to build a roadmap 551 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,100 where you going to paste it a certain way with investors in 552 00:28:27,100 --> 00:28:30,600 mind. Clients in mind new products in 553 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,100 mind. All of these size of the 554 00:28:33,100 --> 00:28:36,400 company, which is very different from when you are just an 555 00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,800 engineer and your job is to make sure that your eye this code 556 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,100 before the end of next week with no bugs. 557 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,800 I also find a lot of times as the CTO or engineering manager 558 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:50,100 or head of engineering, right? There are Times that we all 559 00:28:50,100 --> 00:28:52,300 understand in a start-up. We all want to do things in a 560 00:28:52,308 --> 00:28:55,000 fast way, do things as soon as possible. 561 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,700 Maybe tomorrow. I want to release that and give 562 00:28:57,700 --> 00:28:59,600 it to the users. Right by the same time. 563 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:01,900 Obviously, looking from the engineering perspective. 564 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:03,200 There are things that cannot be done. 565 00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,100 Just like what you mentioned? Stakeholder management or 566 00:29:06,100 --> 00:29:09,400 investor management is also one key area of a CTO. 567 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:13,400 You have any good tips? Like, how actually should you 568 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,700 explain this kind of, you know, Paradox, should I say between 569 00:29:17,700 --> 00:29:21,100 engineering and business? I think the number one thing is 570 00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:24,500 you should always, you should learn to not say no. 571 00:29:25,500 --> 00:29:27,700 Mhm. So never say, no, it can't be 572 00:29:27,700 --> 00:29:30,800 done. Just say, yes, it will be done 573 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,400 and maybe in a different way, than what you thought. 574 00:29:33,700 --> 00:29:37,000 What I learned is also that as Engineers we have this idea of 575 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,300 perfection. There are very often ways to 576 00:29:39,300 --> 00:29:41,900 pitch what you're doing in a positive way. 577 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,000 So if you are going to rebuild the system and is going to delay 578 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,700 something by a few weeks, your it is you're not going to 579 00:29:50,700 --> 00:29:52,700 explain that. You are redoing the system. 580 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,000 Your point is, you're going to sell the dream of the next 581 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,200 feature. You're going to be able to build 582 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:02,000 with that rewrite. You are not doing okay? 583 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,000 And, you know, redesigning, this core part of the system. 584 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,800 What you are doing is we are enabling a, i driven something 585 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,100 in the system and very often. This is what you are doing 586 00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:14,500 except that you cannot explain it in technical terms. 587 00:30:14,500 --> 00:30:18,400 You have to rephrase it in a functional way that people who 588 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:21,100 are not Technically inclined can understand. 589 00:30:21,300 --> 00:30:23,200 And this is actually a big part of it. 590 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:25,900 The hardest part is you have to grow out of the engineer 591 00:30:25,900 --> 00:30:28,100 mindset. You have to learn to sell and 592 00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:31,500 you have to learn also to explain to talking to maybe more 593 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:33,600 financial terms and salesy terms. 594 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,800 And for many engineer. This is a hard thing to do. 595 00:30:37,100 --> 00:30:40,400 So really, let me rephrase it. When you have this sort of 596 00:30:40,500 --> 00:30:43,600 situation don't talk about tech. You are actually doing it for a 597 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,900 reason which is business reason and you cannot go and say we are 598 00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:51,700 really factoring this Because we don't have the right performance 599 00:30:51,700 --> 00:30:54,800 in technical terms. You have to say, we are enabling 600 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,700 this part of the roadmap, which is why. 601 00:30:56,700 --> 00:31:00,200 For me, one of the things I learned very quickly was to 602 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,100 always have a roadmap and always refer to the roadmap. 603 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,900 And in fact, also, I done to Pace myself and keep a few 604 00:31:06,900 --> 00:31:09,600 innovation in my back pocket. Even if I had ideas. 605 00:31:09,700 --> 00:31:12,800 I will not always put them in a roadmap or I would phrase my 606 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:16,200 work plan, in terms of roadmap, and in terms of features that 607 00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,500 can be understood by the board. Remember all the first time, 608 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:24,400 many, many, many years ago. My manager was on leave. 609 00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,500 I will start within the team and the project manager was on 610 00:31:27,500 --> 00:31:29,600 leave. And so, I was kind of the second 611 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,300 guy in charge, and they asked me to go to the monthly business 612 00:31:33,300 --> 00:31:36,900 review of the whole company to present what my team with doing. 613 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:40,100 So, I went there. And when it was my turn to 614 00:31:40,100 --> 00:31:44,300 speak, I started explaining some database issue in deeply 615 00:31:44,300 --> 00:31:46,300 technical term. The see, you looked at me and 616 00:31:46,300 --> 00:31:49,600 said after I was done, he said, okay, so now Now, can you say 617 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:55,600 that in English? And ultimately I was okay. 618 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:59,100 So it's going to still going to take three weeks and it was 619 00:31:59,100 --> 00:32:05,400 like, okay and I was very deep in the weeds of explaining 620 00:32:05,500 --> 00:32:09,900 intricate programming Concepts and it was like, so how long is 621 00:32:09,900 --> 00:32:13,700 going to take? And this was I realized I was 622 00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:15,600 very young. I was in my late twenties at the 623 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,100 time of this is when I realized that. 624 00:32:17,100 --> 00:32:18,400 Yeah. Universe to have had the 625 00:32:18,408 --> 00:32:20,500 question. Message for example. 626 00:32:20,500 --> 00:32:23,200 Another thing is you're going to talk to your investors and 627 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,300 you're not going to tell them. We are using the cloud. 628 00:32:25,500 --> 00:32:27,700 You're going to tell them instead of having Capital 629 00:32:27,700 --> 00:32:29,500 expense. We are using operational 630 00:32:29,500 --> 00:32:32,500 expense. So I don't buy computers, but I 631 00:32:32,500 --> 00:32:35,600 buy capacity by the minute. So this is actually an Opex, 632 00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:39,400 right? Yep, many little, many little 633 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,100 tricks like this, right? So, switching a little bit into 634 00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:46,000 your career Journey, right? You've been a start-up 635 00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,500 architect, a number of years lately, having In a lot of 636 00:32:49,500 --> 00:32:53,100 startups within this region in Southeast Asia, how do you 637 00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:56,000 compare between startups from Asian? 638 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:58,100 And also Western do you see any difference? 639 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,100 First of all, let me pick you up or anything. 640 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,400 I don't think it's fair to say Western versus Asia. 641 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:09,400 Okay, because there is as much difference between somebody who 642 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:13,300 lives in Indonesia and somebody will lives in Vietnam as there 643 00:33:13,300 --> 00:33:16,500 is somebody with who lived between, you know, France and 644 00:33:16,500 --> 00:33:19,800 the west coast of America. They are very Unconscious. 645 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,100 So to put them as Western and Asian is actually a really not 646 00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:26,100 accurate. There's vast cultural 647 00:33:26,100 --> 00:33:29,300 differences, but even in the west, like, for example, for me 648 00:33:29,300 --> 00:33:32,700 moving from France to the US, when I moved to the Silicon 649 00:33:32,700 --> 00:33:36,200 Valley, there was a very vast difference and then I found when 650 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:40,500 I moved to different parts of Asia, that sometimes things are 651 00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:44,000 more similar to Western Europe was in things were more and more 652 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,400 similar to North America while things rather than just purely 653 00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:49,700 local. So I can Give you a bit of 654 00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:51,300 anecdote. For example, the French are very 655 00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:54,900 famous for arguing all the time. So, in the work culture or their 656 00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:57,400 everybody has an advice on everything all the time. 657 00:33:57,700 --> 00:34:01,000 And even while you are executing a project, even when decisions 658 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,000 have been made, we are still debating about the decision, 659 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:05,100 right? Would have been made. 660 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,100 Alright, rise in America in general and I of course, it's 661 00:34:09,100 --> 00:34:10,900 always simplified when I was in the u.s. 662 00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:15,199 In general decisions are made faster and people stick to the 663 00:34:15,199 --> 00:34:17,699 plan a lot more. It's a lot more about having 664 00:34:17,699 --> 00:34:21,699 execution. Mmm, so less people are going to 665 00:34:21,900 --> 00:34:24,900 debate about decision. We should have been made while 666 00:34:24,900 --> 00:34:26,500 you are actually executing. The plan. 667 00:34:26,699 --> 00:34:28,600 On the other hand. I've told the plan is daughter 668 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,100 after you reach a milestone - 34, all you, can debate would 669 00:34:32,100 --> 00:34:35,100 find the wrong word. Didn't go, what went well, but I 670 00:34:35,100 --> 00:34:38,699 also found that is very similar on between France and many Asian 671 00:34:38,699 --> 00:34:41,699 countries, France, and Asian countries have a lot of power 672 00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:43,800 distance. In the sense that there was very 673 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:47,000 strong sense of hierarchy and power distance is the concept 674 00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:49,800 that was defined by a psychologist, but Basically, it 675 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,300 is how people relate to Authority, and how they react in 676 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:55,800 front of authority. And that is very cultural in 677 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,000 Asia very often. There's a very strong power 678 00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:01,800 distance in France, as well. Also, there's a very strong 679 00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:03,400 power distance. So this is one of the 680 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,900 similarities we have. But that basically means that, 681 00:35:06,100 --> 00:35:08,400 if you're the manager, actual the bus, if you work the 682 00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,900 authority, people will not contradict you. 683 00:35:11,100 --> 00:35:14,400 They will be afraid to speak up. They will be quiet. 684 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,000 So you have this meeting rooms while you say something, and you 685 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:18,900 ask, is there any question and everybody? 686 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,500 He's very site on because nobody dares to speak up. 687 00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:23,700 As a manager of this, is not something you want. 688 00:35:23,900 --> 00:35:26,500 You want to have hit back because you're in the dark. 689 00:35:26,500 --> 00:35:28,500 You don't know what's happening on the ground. 690 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:30,800 You need information and they will not give it to you. 691 00:35:31,100 --> 00:35:34,000 So it's really hard. The way I dealt with originally 692 00:35:34,100 --> 00:35:37,600 was to try to educate people. So we my first experience of 693 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:39,300 that. I picked a leader. 694 00:35:39,300 --> 00:35:42,800 I actually found somebody who was educated in the west but 695 00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,600 local and so I may learn the person would speak up for the 696 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:51,200 others little by little they say So that you know, it was okay to 697 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:52,500 tell me things. It was okay. 698 00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:55,900 Don't contradict me. I was not going to override. 699 00:35:55,900 --> 00:35:57,500 Sometimes I would say that's a good idea. 700 00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:01,400 I didn't think about it and little by little, they felt very 701 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,400 free. It took many weeks, several 702 00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,100 months before I got to go to that. 703 00:36:06,500 --> 00:36:07,500 Right. Another thing. 704 00:36:07,500 --> 00:36:10,200 I did was to learn the local language because everybody said 705 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,200 that you know, you have to learn the local language. 706 00:36:12,500 --> 00:36:15,700 And in fact, it didn't work out at all because in that 707 00:36:15,700 --> 00:36:18,400 particular account for every cent it's very frightening 708 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,400 because the Use the local language as a safe space. 709 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,300 They could be talking to each other and I didn't understand 710 00:36:24,300 --> 00:36:26,900 the defect is safe. But then, you know, I started to 711 00:36:26,900 --> 00:36:29,000 be able to answer understand the cosecant only. 712 00:36:29,000 --> 00:36:31,500 Well, I completely lost it was really, really disturbing for 713 00:36:31,500 --> 00:36:35,200 them and it actually made it even harder for them to adapt to 714 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,300 me. So it was quite a few products. 715 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,300 Interesting. So the other thing is that the 716 00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:41,700 ability to admit that you don't know. 717 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:44,300 So in many cultures, it has different forms. 718 00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:47,800 And in Asia, where I found very often, is that people find it 719 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,100 very, very hard. And they can't say, I don't 720 00:36:50,100 --> 00:36:51,700 know, so they will make one sells. 721 00:36:51,700 --> 00:36:54,600 Well, very evasive. We don't necessarily answer the 722 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:57,600 question but I always correct. So I always make a joke, you 723 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,000 know, if you ask this question and you say, is this program 724 00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:04,000 working and the guy looks at you and say today the sky is rather 725 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,200 blue. It has no annual ignore, Elation 726 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,000 with the question and he looks at you and say yeah, but it is 727 00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:12,100 correct today. The sky is indeed blue. 728 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:15,600 So you can't fault me for that. And so I used to get very angry 729 00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:18,700 and then I realize that this is a way to tell me in a very 730 00:37:18,700 --> 00:37:21,000 awkward. Bleak polite manner. 731 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:23,500 That I don't know, I won't be able to give you an answer on. 732 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:26,900 You have to stop being upset and being direct and say, okay, 733 00:37:27,100 --> 00:37:30,500 let's circumnavigate around this and go like that. 734 00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:32,200 It's very hard to admit, you're wrong. 735 00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:35,800 You meet, French people equate being correct with looking 736 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,300 smart. So, in my culture, we also find 737 00:37:38,300 --> 00:37:40,600 it very hard to say. I don't know, but we will not do 738 00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:42,000 like this. We will say your question is 739 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:44,800 stupid. Let's and, and we will fight, 740 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,500 which is kind of fun, because frankly would like to argue all 741 00:37:47,500 --> 00:37:50,300 the time, but we like to Argue very strongly and very 742 00:37:50,300 --> 00:37:53,000 passionately. So it will terrified many 743 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:56,500 Outsiders and at the end of the meeting, we say, oh, you know, a 744 00:37:56,500 --> 00:37:59,000 good conversation. We should do that more often and 745 00:37:59,000 --> 00:38:01,200 the other girls are like, how come you didn't kill each other. 746 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:04,300 All, you know, we were about to call for help and I know it was 747 00:38:04,300 --> 00:38:06,800 fun right now. We had a great, great time to 748 00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,700 add power distance, you know, the fact that you're the boss 749 00:38:09,700 --> 00:38:12,300 and the fact that you say I'm wrong, you know, this can be 750 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:15,100 very, very, very challenging in Asia. 751 00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:17,500 You can step on a lot of toes. You can help a lot of 752 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:20,200 sensitivities. I also think there is a little 753 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,800 bit that is linked to the education system, where many 754 00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:27,300 countries are brought up where the system of thinking is you 755 00:38:27,300 --> 00:38:31,500 learn in the book and then you have the correct answer and in 756 00:38:31,500 --> 00:38:35,800 Europe and in the west it's varies, but it's usually not 757 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,200 judged upon. Like, for example, I never had a 758 00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:42,200 multiple choice question in any of my exam until I was in third 759 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,000 year of University. You always write essays and 760 00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,300 statement of facts. You never had four books to 761 00:38:47,300 --> 00:38:50,500 check who is kind of very Three different way. 762 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,900 We basically end up saying, I don't know the answer. 763 00:38:52,900 --> 00:38:54,700 I don't even want to voice search. 764 00:38:54,700 --> 00:38:57,100 If there is an answer. I'm just going to shoot from the 765 00:38:57,100 --> 00:39:00,000 hip and improvise something which can be also very 766 00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:03,900 disturbing for one looker. The last thing for me is really 767 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,600 vocabulary. We all speak English, right? 768 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,800 So we think because actually we speak our English which is 769 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:14,100 usually a translation of our own native language and sometimes 770 00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:17,900 you might be making big errors without any intentions of my 771 00:39:17,900 --> 00:39:21,400 favorite example. That is the French when they 772 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,100 discuss about ideas, and they think that another idea is not 773 00:39:26,200 --> 00:39:27,800 valid. They would very easily. 774 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,100 Say this is a stupid idea. Hmm. 775 00:39:30,300 --> 00:39:33,200 Because in French, when you are in this context, the world 776 00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:37,200 stupid is not altered as strong as English in this context. 777 00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,100 The world. Stupid just means that it's a 778 00:39:39,107 --> 00:39:40,900 little silly, silly, totally irrelevant. 779 00:39:40,900 --> 00:39:43,600 It won't work. It's the nice little enduring 780 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,300 world. It is not at all. 781 00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:48,700 The this is stupid. And by extension your stupid is 782 00:39:48,900 --> 00:39:52,600 It's not at all confrontational. You have to be very careful when 783 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,300 I was in the u.s. I could see my French colleagues 784 00:39:55,300 --> 00:39:58,500 coming for business trips and standing up in front of American 785 00:39:58,500 --> 00:40:01,100 colleague on the your stupid. It is stupid that I could see 786 00:40:01,100 --> 00:40:03,900 the American having a little bit of a hard time. 787 00:40:03,900 --> 00:40:07,900 So I also did this in Asia and I could see people getting really, 788 00:40:07,900 --> 00:40:10,500 really, really upset. So, at the end of the day, you 789 00:40:10,500 --> 00:40:11,900 know, what do you do? Because when you are in a 790 00:40:11,908 --> 00:40:15,100 country like Singapore, you don't even have to just adapt to 791 00:40:15,100 --> 00:40:17,500 one culture. You have teams that come from 792 00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,200 all over the world, so you can Have something that is just 793 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:21,900 fitting. Everybody's culture. 794 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,200 So, the only solution I found is you create your own culture. 795 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,700 This is something I'm already mentioned. 796 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,100 The culture in. Your company is super important. 797 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,300 This is the summer for the behavior of this is, what is 798 00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:34,500 correct. What is not correct? 799 00:40:34,500 --> 00:40:38,100 So you really have to build something where people with the 800 00:40:38,100 --> 00:40:41,100 new joiners will come in and say, oh, I see, this is the 801 00:40:41,100 --> 00:40:43,100 standard and I can confirm to it. 802 00:40:43,100 --> 00:40:46,000 This is how it is done in this company and that will help me 803 00:40:46,000 --> 00:40:49,500 free up my own limitations or, you know, goo Rock on my own 804 00:40:49,500 --> 00:40:51,400 desires. If I don't like it, there is a 805 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:54,800 feedback mechanism for you to actually say it, but you need to 806 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,800 build this into your company because you need to be sensitive 807 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:01,400 that people need these standards and they don't necessarily have 808 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,000 them. And I don't really have a 809 00:41:03,100 --> 00:41:06,200 perfect country or building recipe where I can tell you is 810 00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,500 this is really fun and you will have some real times, you will 811 00:41:09,500 --> 00:41:12,700 laugh afterwards, but we know it's going to be very very 812 00:41:12,700 --> 00:41:15,200 challenging and entertaining at the same time. 813 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:19,100 Interesting interesting. So what are some of the Maybe 814 00:41:19,100 --> 00:41:22,200 interesting stuffs, you have seen in the startup scene lately 815 00:41:22,300 --> 00:41:26,300 around the region. I generally think that the liver 816 00:41:26,300 --> 00:41:32,800 of technical ability is rising but amazingly and I know I sound 817 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:37,800 like maybe can be taken bad. But I really I've been here. 14 818 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,200 years in Singapore. And before that. 819 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:44,600 I was in Asia for seven or eight years in multiple countries, and 820 00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,700 I do know that my first startup in Asia, I had a hard time. 821 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:53,100 Recruiting people that met my quality standards and now having 822 00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:55,400 worked here. And I've been in multiple 823 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,100 countries. I can see that. 824 00:41:57,300 --> 00:42:01,100 So many startups are popping up and because I actually traveled 825 00:42:01,100 --> 00:42:04,500 a lot and talk to many of these. All those amazing to me is that 826 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:07,800 these guys are really seriously good at technology which 10 827 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,700 years ago, was not the case. So everybody in Asia is really 828 00:42:11,700 --> 00:42:15,000 really building up to be some really high potential. 829 00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:18,700 That's very good to hear. So, how about business model? 830 00:42:18,900 --> 00:42:21,600 Maybe in terms of scale, challenges, are there. 831 00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:23,400 Any interesting stuff you've seen lately? 832 00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,000 So you have a country, like, Singapore is very technical. 833 00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,800 And many of the startups are embracing highly technological 834 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,300 problems. While you have your, I'm 835 00:42:33,300 --> 00:42:37,300 Indonesia with the country that is growing extremely fast. 836 00:42:37,300 --> 00:42:41,300 You have a lot of startups who are about solving issues that 837 00:42:41,300 --> 00:42:42,400 have been solved a long time ago. 838 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:45,400 So for example, many of the startups, I took two are about 839 00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:48,600 ensuring quality of delivery of service. 840 00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:51,100 Right, right. I talked to companies while 841 00:42:51,100 --> 00:42:54,900 ensuring quality of delivery of coffee and showing quality of 842 00:42:54,900 --> 00:42:58,600 office space and showing franchising. 843 00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,300 Laundry systems. It's not like you don't have 844 00:43:01,300 --> 00:43:04,800 laundry in Indonesia. Is that the model of the startup 845 00:43:04,800 --> 00:43:08,000 is to make sure that if you go to certain laundry shops, you 846 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:09,600 have a guaranteed level of quality. 847 00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,700 Whereas, in Singapore, for example, this is not really a 848 00:43:12,707 --> 00:43:15,700 question, which you do have is more about this related to the 849 00:43:15,700 --> 00:43:17,000 population. Density. 850 00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:21,200 The high industrialization of Some more for the areas and the 851 00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:24,900 importance of the port and the importance of logistics and that 852 00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:27,300 sort of. So it's very highly controlled. 853 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,000 A lot of the very large successful companies in Vietnam, 854 00:43:30,000 --> 00:43:32,500 for example, our e-commerce and well it because it's something 855 00:43:32,500 --> 00:43:35,600 that is very important and successful in Japan. 856 00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:39,000 There's a large amount of companies while mobile first and 857 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,800 will stay mobile because mobile has been really, really big 858 00:43:42,100 --> 00:43:46,700 versus about of India. Web applications are still very, 859 00:43:46,700 --> 00:43:50,100 very big. So what You find is people are 860 00:43:50,100 --> 00:43:53,600 different stages of evolution and very often in the reflects. 861 00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:57,000 What is the local culture about interesting insights? 862 00:43:57,500 --> 00:44:00,800 So before we recap the show, I would like to ask you this 863 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:02,800 question. What are the three with the 864 00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:06,100 means that you would like to share our audience here in terms 865 00:44:06,100 --> 00:44:08,600 of technical leadership? Sure. 866 00:44:08,700 --> 00:44:14,000 So I would say, first of all, for many people who like me grow 867 00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,200 from being very good engineer to becoming a leader, you have to 868 00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:22,100 remember, Leading with the girls is leading yourself first. 869 00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,100 That means you need to add some point. 870 00:44:24,100 --> 00:44:26,700 Really sit down and understand your own character. 871 00:44:26,900 --> 00:44:29,600 How you regulate emotions would behaviors? 872 00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,800 You have how you communicate this Behavior River. 873 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:35,400 There's how you handle difficult, conversation and 874 00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,200 difficult decisions. That's a very big work of 875 00:44:38,200 --> 00:44:40,700 self-awareness and you should always do that. 876 00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:44,600 The second one is really as a leader, everything you do 877 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,600 impacts the company and if you are not careful, too. 878 00:44:48,800 --> 00:44:52,000 Keep bad behaviors in check. It will actually have an effect 879 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:54,400 that he puts down all the way to everywhere. 880 00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:58,500 So, basically, anything you do creates the company culture. 881 00:44:58,700 --> 00:45:02,400 It has to be very, very intentional and less. 882 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,000 Right? Would be never hire out of 883 00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:07,300 desperation, never high, or just because you've been looking for 884 00:45:07,300 --> 00:45:11,400 somebody for so long that now you have lost in the patience of 885 00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,300 looking for a great candidate. You should never do that. 886 00:45:14,300 --> 00:45:17,000 You should always have the highest standards and pressure 887 00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:18,600 on be hire somebody you are smart. 888 00:45:18,800 --> 00:45:22,700 When you want to never be the smartest person in the room, you 889 00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:25,500 want to be buying smarter people and learn from them. 890 00:45:26,100 --> 00:45:29,400 Those three are really insightful coming from all your 891 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,600 various experience around the industry. 892 00:45:31,900 --> 00:45:34,800 So how can people find and connect with you on the internet 893 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,500 Jerome? The best way is LinkedIn, this 894 00:45:38,500 --> 00:45:40,400 is where I have the most activity. 895 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,700 So you can just search for my name on LinkedIn. 896 00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:48,300 It's actually a very uncommon French so name, so you won't 897 00:45:48,300 --> 00:45:51,700 find many Jerome between and find me and connects and me a 898 00:45:51,700 --> 00:45:53,800 message and then we can start discussing. 899 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,700 Wonderful. Thank you so much Jerome for 900 00:45:56,700 --> 00:46:00,000 joining us for this episode. It's always a pleasure having 901 00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,100 this conversation with you. Thanks. 902 00:46:02,100 --> 00:46:04,600 It's been fun for me, too. I love meeting you. 903 00:46:04,900 --> 00:46:10,500 I had a great time. Thank you for listening to this 904 00:46:10,500 --> 00:46:12,200 episode. And I hope that you learned 905 00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,900 something from this conversation. 906 00:46:14,100 --> 00:46:17,500 If you find this valuable, please do me a big favor and 907 00:46:17,500 --> 00:46:19,600 share this with your friends and colleagues. 908 00:46:20,100 --> 00:46:22,600 Also, if you haven't, please subscribe, and follow this. 909 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,300 Show on your favorite podcast app pack. 910 00:46:25,300 --> 00:46:29,000 Lit Journal is available on all major podcast apps such as Apple 911 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,000 podcast Google podcasts and Spotify and please leave your 912 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,900 rating and review so that more people can find this podcast. 913 00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:38,200 And learn from the available episodes. 914 00:46:38,500 --> 00:46:40,700 Thank you again, and I'll see you next time.