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The way I Define Simplicity is 
the act of doing something easy 

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combined with positive, 
emotional effect. 

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So in one sentence Simplicity is
an experience that make things 

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easy for users and that lives 
positive emotions because that 

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emotion makes you feel great 
that emotions make you want to 

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do more business with some 
products or Brands. 

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So usability part and the 
emotion part combined together. 

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That's what I mean by 
simplicity. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya be Robin.

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And you're listening to the 
tekhelet journal. 

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The show will be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders 

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practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

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discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal, 
everyone. 

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Another episode of the tekhelet 
journal podcast, really excited 

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to be back here again to share. 
With all of you, my conversation

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with another great technical 
leader in the industry. 

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Thank you for tuning in and 
spending your time with me 

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today, listening to this 
episode. 

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If you're new, to the podcast, 
know that technology, you know, 

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many others. 
Also, please check out and 

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follow technology, you know, 
social media channels. 

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On LinkedIn, Twitter and 
Instagram every day, you will 

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find words of wisdom from the 
latest podcast episode and I 

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share them on those channels to 
give us some inspiration and 

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motivation for us to get better 
each day. 

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And if you'd like to make some 
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support the creation of this 
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as a patron by visiting 
technology. 

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No dot f /, Patron. 
I highly appreciate any kind of 

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support and your contribution 
would help me towards 

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sustainably producing. 
Show every week for today's 

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episode. 
I am so excited to share my 

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lovely conversation with Jin 
Cong. 

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Molar. 
Jin is an award winning customer

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experience, strategies designed 
practitioner and the author of 

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The Simplicity playbook for 
innovators. 

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She helped design leadership 
positions to create values and 

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bottom line impact. 
For 20 years in the large 

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Financial Services firms such as
ocbc Bank in Singapore and 

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Credit Suisse in Switzerland and
has led The user experience 

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consulting services for 
pharmaceutical companies. 

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Her design methodologies have 
helped wealth management, 

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private and Retail Banking and 
also Insurance businesses to 

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drive successful, customer 
experience and digital 

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transformation initiatives. 
She was the driving force behind

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Frank by ocbc, an award-winning 
Millennial banking concept and 

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the ocbc one wealth app, which 
drove successful digital sales 

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and won her a Singapore. 
Good design mock go. 

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The ward in 2017 Simplicity. 
I'm sure all of us have heard 

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this term being mentioned a few 
times in books courses seminars 

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and trainings. 
It is one of the words that is 

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commonly coined, this days that 
is highly associated with great 

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user experience, efficient 
workflow and business processes.

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However, Simplicity itself is 
sometimes vaguely described and 

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many people have different 
interpretations of it. 

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In this episode Jean shared. 
With me her unique and 

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insightful perspectives on 
Simplicity and how by striving 

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towards Simplicity. 
It will naturally lead to Great 

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Innovations. 
She shared with me in detail, 

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her powerful framework 
Simplicity diamond and it's five

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different facets. 
That is extremely powerful to 

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help us Embrace Simplicity in 
dealing with different aspects 

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of business. 
Practices, products and 

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services. 
She also shared her point of 

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view on a gel and design 
thinking and how Can combine 

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both methodologies together in 
order to solve the right 

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problems for our customers and 
users? 

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You also do not want to miss her
file sharing on a concept called

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pain sponge, which provides a 
great mindset analogy for 

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delivering better customer 
experience. 

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I really enjoy my conversation 
with Jean. 

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I learned a lot and I hope you 
will enjoy this episode as well.

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And if you like it, consider 
helping the show by living it a 

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rating review or comment on your
podcast app, all social media 

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channels, those reviews and 
comments are one of the best 

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ways to get these podcasts to 
reach more listeners and 

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hopefully they can also benefit 
from the contents in this 

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podcast. 
So let's get this episode 

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started right after our sponsor 
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Once you receive any of those 

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tracks. 
Hey everyone, welcome back to 

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another show of the technology 
on our podcast today. 

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I have a special guest with me. 
Her name is Jin Cong. 

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I hope I pronounce the name 
correctly. 

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So I Found Jeans book in one of 
the local bookstore few weeks 

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back. 
So, the book stood out. 

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For me because the shape is 
vertically tall instead of a 

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horizontal or like normal book 
size and it has a very 

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interesting conflict in order to
promote the message about 

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Simplicity. 
The book is called the 

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Simplicity playbook for 
innovators. 

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So I find that the message 
inside is pretty good. 

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Didn't also spend a lot of time 
in Singapore and that's why I 

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love stories in the book 
actually came from her 

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experience in Singapore. 
So Jean, looking forward to have

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a chat with you. 
Hopefully, you can educate us 

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about simplicity. 
For having me so DNS normal. 

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In my podcast to start with, 
would you be able to introduce 

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yourself? 
Maybe about your career Journey,

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any highlights or turning 
points? 

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Okay. 
So yes, my journey has started 

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as a designer. 
So, I studied visual 

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communication and product design
in South Korea. 

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So, my name's Ian come comes 
from South Korea name. 

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If you're into Korean, dramas, 
probably, you're familiar with 

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those names, back in the days 
design was really about making 

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stuff. 
We didn't talk about design 

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thinking or innovation. 
So I come from that background 

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where we were very mindful of or
very excited about the art of 

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making the craft side of design.
So I remember one of the classes

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work, our design class where we 
had to send these plastic to 

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model the shape of the car. 
And there has been product 

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design class where I had to go 
out and observe people trying to

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write down everything and then 
come up with the ideas and 

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sketch out a lot of concept. 
So that was my background. 

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So I think this idea of design 
as a craft shaped my design 

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practice, as well as principles 
even now. 

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I mean actual concept of design 
has evolved so much. 

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So I started my career as user 
experience designer. 

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My career has started in 
Switzerland and I was working as

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a usability expert and UI 
designers for manufacturers to 

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record companies. 
So I haven't started my design 

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journey in a very sexy place 
where you know ads or creative. 

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I was very busy with clarify. 
Find the complex stuff, but I 

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found that there was very 
rewarding because pharmaceutical

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as well as financial services 
are very important part of 

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people's business. 
Yet. 

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It was very design from an 
organizational point of view. 

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So that was my motivation. 
The Turning Point really came 

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when I chanced upon the word 
user experience with a quite new

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words, at that time was more 
about usability or user 

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interface design. 
I learned the term when Google's

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I mean now she is the CEO. 
Yahoo, Marissa Mayer when she 

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was heading the user experience 
team at Google. 

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She was featured in Fortune like
the woman behind Google's 

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experience or something like 
that. 

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And then the idea of experience 
really capture my attention. 

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Wow, experience People Like Us 
can design Human Experience. 

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Then around the time, I happen 
to be at a usability conference 

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because nobody talked about 
experience that time. 

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And then I met somebody who was 
heading customer experience team

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at credits with your my eyes 
were widened. 

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Oh my God, I have to work there.
So I immediately walk into the 

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sky and talk to him and I 
happened to get a job there. 

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And of course he became my 
mentor and lifelong friend. 

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So that's how I started my 
so-called design Journey back in

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around the time. 
The global financial crisis 

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happened as a customer 
experience designer. 

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And it was fascinating to me 
because the idea of usability 

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can be applied in many aspects 
of experience such as process 

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paper. 
Product anything even the 

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physical space. 
So then interesting opportunity 

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came up. 
The idea that we can start this 

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customer experience practice in 
Singapore, directly under the 

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CEOs strategy. 
So, some people from Credit, 

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Suisse, be moved to take up this
opportunity. 

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We one of the founding members 
of group customer experience, 

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in, on CBC bank, one of the 
largest banks in Singapore. 

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And then we started this 
journey. 

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How do we reuse customer 
centricity design the Since so 

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that the reason why people bank 
with us, if not because we offer

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slightly better interest rate. 
If not, because the branch 

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happened to be just nearby if, 
because the experience is way 

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better, that job was supposed to
last two years because I had two

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years contract in the thinking. 
They're okay, two years less 

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work really hard. 
I'm gonna go back. 

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But then I think the idea of 
Designing a new experience and 

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driving change took a long time.
It was not an easy process at 

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the same time. 
Very rewarding process. 

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So I ended up staying with the 
ocbc bank, almost 10 years. 

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During the time. 
My last Turning Point came in 

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when the idea of design cannot 
be reside in one Department. 

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We started as a group customer 
experience, but with a digital 

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technology and fintech 
disruptive technology around us.

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The idea that these kind of 
capabilities can be driven by a 

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few individuals in a team, 
didn't really work for the bank.

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There's a mandate to look for 
ways to To scale with this way 

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of thinking. 
So since 2017. 

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I've been very interested in 
looking at. 

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What is the commonality between 
the say, a dial, or design 

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thinking or lean? 
I mean, there are a lot of 

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methodologies out there and what
are the principles rather than 

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method? 
They can really Empower every 

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single individuals to really 
challenge the status quo, and 

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make the right decision and 
whatever they do. 

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And I begin to believe that 
design is a tool, can be very 

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powerful that can drive change. 
And to Our people and to bring 

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people together to solve 
problems, more creative way. 

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So yes, that has been my 
Journey. 

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The book. 
I've written really captures, 

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big part of my journey. 
How the idea of experience 

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simple experience can Thrive the
competitive Advantage. 

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At the same time. 
This doesn't have to be the art 

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work of Genius. 
It can be really anyone who's 

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mindful of those principles and 
tools and applying it and then 

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having fun along the way. 
So that was my journey. 

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00:11:35,900 --> 00:11:37,400
Sorry. 
I think it was really long. 

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Introduction, that's alright. 
So thanks for sharing your 

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story. 
When I read the book. 

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A lot of examples came from your
10 years experience in ocbc. 

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So you must have overcome some 
challenges in terms of changing 

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the mindset of the Traditional 
Bank thinking right? 

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Like for example, how do you 
implement this whole customer 

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experience revamping it or even 
like invent a new way of doing 

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business with the customers? 
So what are some of the 

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challenges that you overcame 
when you work on these 

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00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:09,300
challenges? 
Well there have Many challenges.

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I think there are maybe three 
things. 

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One is the idea of 
customer-centric a lot of 

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companies say it but how do we 
really walk the talk? 

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So for instance in order to 
build something that is useful 

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and easy and pleasurable for 
customers. 

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We have to understand who they 
are, what they do, how they 

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behave. 
But then the research practice 

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has been very much based on. 
On the quantitative, we could do

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want to run survey and 
understand. 

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Oh, actually, we don't have to 
run the research because the 

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famous Consulting companies like
McKinsey. 

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They already have paper, so we 
know what they want. 

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So the idea that we can really 
stay humble. 

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Try to go out there, see people,
it was a big mindset shift for 

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00:12:58,600 --> 00:13:02,100
many project members. 
Why do we need to spend time in 

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really talking to real user when
we have a data? 

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So that was one of the thing. 
But then the way me My team 

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members over came with it was 
really involving them in the 

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research process. 
We bunch of designers. 

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We went out and we spoke to 
people and tada. 

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This is the outcome when we 
involve them our stakeholders in

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who's the owner of the product 
or process or channel in the 

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research process as a web 
server. 

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So we would rather expose what 
people say how people do things 

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in front of them. 
It's more like giving our 

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stakeholders opportunity to see 
how users are behaving and 

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thinking, and saying, Saying 
directly. 

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So that was very interesting 
process because the moment 

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people see something changes in 
them. 

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So I call it power over a theme 
with empathy is not a personal 

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trait. 
Nurses are usually very 

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empathetic. 
So people think, okay. 

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I'm Percy, of course, we have to
be empathetic, but it may not be

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very tangible. 
What does it mean be empathetic 

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in our project? 
But I think it's really more of 

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having that opportunity to meet 
people directly. 

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See people directly then, 
something changes in someone. 

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I I believe that there is a 
direct connection between being 

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able to empathize and being able
to see the problem differently. 

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So when stakeholders experienced
it they wanted more, they see 

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the need for why time spent on 
the standing customers behave at

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a greater depth that really pays
off. 

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So that's one thing. 
Another challenge could be the 

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idea that all design thinking 
takes too long. 

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We have to deliberate this by 
yesterday. 

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My boss wanted it like now. 
Now, let's not do design 

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thinking just to ajar. 
So they look at the method as if

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other will make a pastor design 
thinking make us go deeper and 

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soul-searching kind of thing. 
Where is I think one of the 

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things I learned is that it's 
not about what method. 

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We adopt isn't really about the 
proficiency when people are 

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Master at something, then the 
speed comes naturally. 

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So, one of the way I overcame 
was first of all, to send out 

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the message, it's not about 
Authority, something. 

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Actually. 
There's a huge overlap between 

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those two things. 
And really showing the impact by

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timeboxing it. 
When we are able to focus, even 

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though we spend time with the 
customers and we spent time in 

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prototyping, menu options. 
If you are good at it, you can 

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be actually very fast. 
So that was the second thing. 

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Third thing might be the 
importance of Storytelling. 

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I think people find it hard to 
change because they don't see 

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the need for it in order to 
really inspire people why we 

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need to go that direction. 
Why we need to shift our 

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thinking the best way to do it. 
It's not through building. 

285
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Very smart power point. 
It's really to tell stories. 

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Sometimes we would take a video 
of sour consumers day in our 

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life. 
Sometimes, we would record some 

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of the codes how they struggle 
in making certain financial 

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decision and those stories can 
move our stakeholders so that 

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they see the need for change. 
I like the last part where you 

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00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,200
tell about storytelling because 
in the last few years or so, I 

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think. 
I found a lot of advertisements,

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this day is about storytelling, 
how the business is actually 

294
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:15,300
conveying what they do by 
telling a story inside the 

295
00:16:15,308 --> 00:16:18,400
advertisement things like, for 
example, Insurance Banking and 

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00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:20,300
so on. 
I think this is quite 

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heartwarming I should say 
because the customers can relate

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better to what the business is 
doing, which brought me into the

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00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,900
topic of the day, which is about
Simplicity. 

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Your book is all about 
simplicity. 

301
00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:35,300
So it's very simple to say, but 
what is actually the definition 

302
00:16:35,300 --> 00:16:39,500
of simplicity? 
So before I answer that, what do

303
00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:43,700
you think is a Simplicity? 
Well, in my opinion, Simplicity 

304
00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:47,800
is something that is not taking 
a lot of time to think about not

305
00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,100
taking a lot of time to take 
action. 

306
00:16:50,300 --> 00:16:53,300
Let's hurdle less friction. 
Is that good enough? 

307
00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:56,700
It's perfect. 
You know, funny enough. 

308
00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:58,600
That was the hardest part of the
book. 

309
00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:00,500
I've written. 
I don't know. 

310
00:17:00,500 --> 00:17:03,400
It's 60,000 words and then I 
wasn't convinced it. 

311
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,099
My own definition. 
Actually, my initial definition 

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00:17:06,099 --> 00:17:09,099
of Simplicity is a lens. 
Innovation but then it doesn't 

313
00:17:09,099 --> 00:17:11,400
really mansur to what really is 
simpler. 

314
00:17:11,599 --> 00:17:14,800
So, I went through some 
soul-searching face people. 

315
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,300
I find a nice this book. 
So I boiled down to two 

316
00:17:18,300 --> 00:17:21,000
essential things. 
One is exactly what you said, 

317
00:17:21,099 --> 00:17:23,400
things have to be easy, less 
effort. 

318
00:17:23,500 --> 00:17:26,900
So, Oxford dictionary actually 
defines it as simple as that is 

319
00:17:26,900 --> 00:17:30,600
something that makes things easy
to do, but then I felt that is 

320
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,400
not enough. 
It doesn't really differentiate 

321
00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:35,300
your brand. 
There are a lot of things that 

322
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:39,200
you can do easy, but why certain
And or certain apps sticks with 

323
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,600
you. 
Why certain products don't, I 

324
00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,800
think it'll eyes with the 
emotional part of Simplicity. 

325
00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:48,200
When we look at our life. 
When is the moment, you felt 

326
00:17:48,600 --> 00:17:51,600
that was simple. 
I often think about the coffee 

327
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,600
on a Sunday morning. 
I just got up. 

328
00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:57,200
I just got a couple of my coffee
and I drink and I feel that 

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00:17:57,200 --> 00:17:58,700
woman. 
Nothing worries me. 

330
00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:00,800
Such a simple act makes me 
happy. 

331
00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,800
So, the way I Define Simplicity 
is the act of doing something 

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00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,400
easy combined with positive. 
Ocean effect. 

333
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:12,100
So in one sentence Simplicity is
an experience that make things 

334
00:18:12,100 --> 00:18:16,800
easy for users and that leaves 
positive emotions because that 

335
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,300
emotion makes you feel great 
that emotions make you want to 

336
00:18:21,300 --> 00:18:23,900
do more business with some 
products or Brands. 

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00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:27,600
So usability part and the 
emotional part combined 

338
00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:30,000
together. 
That's what I mean by Simplicity

339
00:18:30,000 --> 00:18:31,700
in the book. 
Wow. 

340
00:18:31,700 --> 00:18:34,500
I really loved it actually 
because the emotion part I think

341
00:18:34,500 --> 00:18:37,200
we tend to neglect that when we 
think about Simplicity is. 

342
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,300
All about, okay, complex 
process, complex, something and 

343
00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:43,200
we just simplify it. 
But we tend to miss the emotion 

344
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,900
part, which you highlight that, 
it should bring a positive 

345
00:18:45,900 --> 00:18:47,900
emotional impact, which is 
pretty good. 

346
00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:51,200
And you also link Simplicity 
with Innovation, you are saying 

347
00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,900
that the Simplicity actually 
leads to Innovation. 

348
00:18:54,100 --> 00:18:56,100
I mean, I couldn't see it in the
first place. 

349
00:18:56,200 --> 00:18:58,600
Maybe you can share with the 
audience, how can Simplicity 

350
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:02,200
actually lead to Innovation? 
Yeah, so there was more like my 

351
00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,500
Discovery. 
It's not that I started with the

352
00:19:04,500 --> 00:19:09,000
concept to make a confession 
when Join or CBC, and also 

353
00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,800
working as a customer experience
designer. 

354
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:15,600
I really didn't like the word 
Innovation, the word Innovation 

355
00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,800
makes me feel anxious and I feel
so Hollow innovate. 

356
00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,900
What for what sake, whose sake 
and how? 

357
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:27,200
So the word Innovation just 
makes people feel frantic look 

358
00:19:27,200 --> 00:19:29,900
for what others are doing rather
than really focus on what 

359
00:19:29,900 --> 00:19:32,600
matters whenever people ask me 
questions about Innovation. 

360
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,200
Oh, I don't believe in 
Innovation to me. 

361
00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:36,800
Innovation is doing the right 
thing, you know, better way. 

362
00:19:37,100 --> 00:19:39,600
So, So I didn't really connect 
what I've been doing and 

363
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,400
Innovation. 
I just didn't like the 

364
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:44,700
Innovation is a term but then 
over the work I've done. 

365
00:19:44,700 --> 00:19:47,600
Most Project work was about 
improving customer experience. 

366
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,700
How can you make the digital 
experience simple when they want

367
00:19:50,700 --> 00:19:52,500
to have a financial transaction 
with us? 

368
00:19:52,700 --> 00:19:55,300
How can you make this product 
easy to understand? 

369
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,000
How can you make the process 
easier for customers? 

370
00:19:58,600 --> 00:20:02,900
So as you will pursuing, for the
benefit of customer experience, 

371
00:20:03,100 --> 00:20:05,400
we found the result being just 
amazing. 

372
00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:09,200
We ended up coming up with. 
Completely new way of 

373
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,700
interacting with the customer. 
We ended up designing our Mobile

374
00:20:13,700 --> 00:20:17,000
Banking in a very different way.
We ended up looking at The 

375
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,100
Wealth Management Services. 
What if wealth management is not

376
00:20:20,100 --> 00:20:22,600
about managing world? 
It's about building confidence. 

377
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,300
So it really allows us to look 
at opportunities that other 

378
00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:30,600
competitors could not have seen.
So after I don't know, seven, 

379
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,700
eight years of repeating this 
process, maybe there's a 

380
00:20:33,708 --> 00:20:37,200
connection when we look for 
opportunities to a simpler. 

381
00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,900
By The Innovation kind of comes 
naturally. 

382
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,100
Then I discovered there are a 
lot of practitioners who already

383
00:20:44,100 --> 00:20:46,600
discovered a secret. 
So I describe some of the 

384
00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,500
examples in the book. 
I think one of the guys who has 

385
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:53,600
been very successful investor 
who will be looking for simple 

386
00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,100
businesses. 
Then he knows this business is 

387
00:20:56,100 --> 00:21:00,800
were in the market. 
So people who are in this field 

388
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:04,500
or in the Innovation or 
investment, they seem to know 

389
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:08,100
the secret already. 
Maybe I discovered a Too late, 

390
00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,600
but I thought, okay. 
Still maybe this is never late 

391
00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:16,300
to share the method and learning
I have and then I decided to 

392
00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:20,100
focus on the method rather than 
why it connects because there 

393
00:21:20,100 --> 00:21:21,700
are already a lot of books out 
there. 

394
00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,500
So if we can go deeper before 
the method, how do you actually 

395
00:21:25,500 --> 00:21:27,800
connect it? 
Because when you say you want to

396
00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,900
achieve Simplicity, does it 
translate straight away 

397
00:21:30,900 --> 00:21:34,700
automatically into Innovation? 
How can you connect this? 

398
00:21:35,500 --> 00:21:39,000
Well, from my journey. 
The intent was never to in order

399
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:41,100
to innovate. 
Let's simplify or as my book 

400
00:21:41,100 --> 00:21:43,900
says otherwise, because that's 
what I learned to me. 

401
00:21:43,900 --> 00:21:46,900
It's really about the question. 
We need to be asking in a 

402
00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:50,600
company is, how can you offer 
better experience Simplicity 

403
00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,000
play a big role of it. 
Maybe the idea of simple doesn't

404
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,800
resonate with some companies. 
And also when I say Simplicity, 

405
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,900
it's a little bit different from
being minimalistic because 

406
00:22:00,900 --> 00:22:04,300
minimalistic and simple as that.
It has a lot of overlap such as 

407
00:22:04,300 --> 00:22:07,100
knowing essential like reducing 
and all that. 

408
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,500
But the goal is different, the 
minimalism might be the goal is 

409
00:22:11,500 --> 00:22:16,300
to reduce, but Simplicity is the
goal is to create that emotional

410
00:22:16,300 --> 00:22:21,800
effect of being simply lovable 
simply confident whichever 

411
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:25,800
adjectives that can work for 
certain organization best. 

412
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,800
So to me, you know, where I use 
the word Simplicity, my message 

413
00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:34,100
to a lot of companies who deals 
with complex issues will be, why

414
00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:36,700
don't you find Innovation 
opportunity in designing 

415
00:22:36,700 --> 00:22:40,000
experiences? 
Has better experiences rather 

416
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,700
than let's innovate because 
Technologies out there or 

417
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:47,000
because our competitors are 
doing this personally because I 

418
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:51,100
came from the financial services
industry where the complexity so

419
00:22:51,100 --> 00:22:52,800
dominant. 
And I thought Simplicity could 

420
00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,600
be one keyword. 
They can really allow us to have

421
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,200
this dialogue. 
But if you ask me the better 

422
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:02,200
connection, I can suggest would 
be designing a better experience

423
00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,600
will lead us to innovate. 
I love that as well. 

424
00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:08,700
You have a very powerful Mark, 
that you mentioned in the book, 

425
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:10,400
which is called Simplicity 
Diamond. 

426
00:23:10,700 --> 00:23:12,100
Would you be able to share with 
us? 

427
00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:15,100
What is this diamond about? 
What are some of the principles 

428
00:23:15,100 --> 00:23:17,500
behind it? 
Okay. 

429
00:23:17,500 --> 00:23:23,600
So Simplicity Diamond, these are
the five principles that I felt 

430
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:27,400
kind of key in any sort of 
project, you may deal with, 

431
00:23:27,700 --> 00:23:31,800
although these were distilled 
into those five days based on my

432
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,600
experience in the financial 
services. 

433
00:23:33,900 --> 00:23:38,100
When I expose this framework to 
Executives in On Financial 

434
00:23:38,100 --> 00:23:40,900
Services, they resonate with 
those principles. 

435
00:23:41,100 --> 00:23:44,500
So I think these files are the 
one that can really help us to 

436
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:47,600
start and also to mature the 
journey. 

437
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,600
So, the five principles deals 
with a different aspect of 

438
00:23:52,700 --> 00:23:54,900
business. 
Practice, first principle is 

439
00:23:54,900 --> 00:23:59,100
called get fueled by empathy 
that is related to our research 

440
00:23:59,100 --> 00:24:01,600
practice. 
So, the whole idea that I want 

441
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:06,200
to promote here is how a theory 
is a strategic asset, not just 

442
00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:09,400
nice to do it. 
Really shaping our perspectives 

443
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:13,000
in looking at really interesting
Innovation opportunities. 

444
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:17,900
I introduce tools and Frameworks
that makes so-called the design 

445
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:22,400
research, much more relatable 
and giving confidence why this 

446
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:25,900
can really complement other 
research, practices, that people

447
00:24:25,900 --> 00:24:27,600
may do. 
I'm not suggesting, they have 

448
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,300
completely replaced. 
We can really complement, the 

449
00:24:30,300 --> 00:24:33,600
current research practices are a
lot of companies do, so, that's 

450
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,500
first one. 
The second principles is called 

451
00:24:36,500 --> 00:24:42,300
dance with Complexity it refers 
to a lot to do with the way we 

452
00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,600
collaborate. 
I like the idea of day and I 

453
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:48,200
don't mean the solo dancing is 
more like the ballroom dancing, 

454
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:52,400
dance, kind of dance, because in
order to solve a complex 

455
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,900
problem, your own ability 
expertise is never enough 

456
00:24:56,900 --> 00:24:59,700
because we need to understand 
the different facets of the 

457
00:24:59,700 --> 00:25:02,000
subject matter. 
So, we need to work with the 

458
00:25:02,008 --> 00:25:04,600
legal & compliance. 
We need to work with products. 

459
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:05,800
/. 
We need to work with tech 

460
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,000
person. 
So How do we bring those people 

461
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,600
together and really understand 
the subject matter? 

462
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:15,000
And simplify it? 
I have this conviction. 

463
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:18,100
Anything can be simplified. 
If you bring the right people, 

464
00:25:18,500 --> 00:25:21,100
if you enable them to solve the 
problem. 

465
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:25,800
So here I talk about some of the
methods how to really make that 

466
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:30,000
collaboration and problem, 
solving process, easy and fun 

467
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,300
and possible. 
Such as I think visual 

468
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:35,500
facilitation is one of the 
methods that highly promote 

469
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,500
because when things are visual 
Realized everything they come 

470
00:25:38,500 --> 00:25:42,300
transparent and people can 
challenge those why it had to be

471
00:25:42,300 --> 00:25:46,100
that way as opposed to think in 
abstract terms the get fueled by

472
00:25:46,100 --> 00:25:49,000
empathy and dance with 
complexity sits at the bottom of

473
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:51,900
the diamond because it kind of a
fuels the rest. 

474
00:25:52,100 --> 00:25:55,800
And then the top three, one of 
the principal is our focus is 

475
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,700
really about now that we 
understood what customers really

476
00:25:58,700 --> 00:26:01,000
want. 
We were charged by a theory. 

477
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,000
We wear the new lens to look at 
problems. 

478
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:07,900
We know how to work with other 
people now where to focus What 

479
00:26:07,900 --> 00:26:10,700
is that one or two things that 
we can do really? 

480
00:26:10,700 --> 00:26:13,300
Well as opposed to try to do 
everything. 

481
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,000
I mean, resources are finite. 
We cannot be good at everything.

482
00:26:17,300 --> 00:26:21,100
The topic of focus is a lot to 
do with the value proposition, 

483
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:25,800
the crafting that value. 
So I suggest is a diagram, the 

484
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:28,500
overlap between your customers, 
why? 

485
00:26:28,500 --> 00:26:31,700
And your business is wide. 
So really understanding, 

486
00:26:31,700 --> 00:26:34,700
customers, true jobs to be done.
What are they trying to do? 

487
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,900
And what is our business trying 
to do? 

488
00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,900
What is Interesting over there. 
I call it the sweet spot. 

489
00:26:40,100 --> 00:26:42,800
So identifying that and 
articulating, it would be the 

490
00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,500
third principles fourth one, 
which a lot of people love is 

491
00:26:46,500 --> 00:26:49,800
called speak human. 
This is about the practice of 

492
00:26:49,800 --> 00:26:53,100
communications. 
Well, when we say design, people

493
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:57,200
typically think about layout and
the color topography buttons 

494
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:01,200
images, Etc, but the way we 
write is actually a design, 

495
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:04,700
right? 
Especially these days things are

496
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,300
getting more conversational 
chatbot boy. 

497
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:09,600
Voice command. 
There's no such thing as a 

498
00:27:09,608 --> 00:27:13,300
visual buttons. 
So I think the scope of design 

499
00:27:13,300 --> 00:27:15,600
has expanded. 
Of course, their language always

500
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,600
has been part of the design, but
I think now it became much more 

501
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:22,300
important. 
And also I often see the way we 

502
00:27:22,300 --> 00:27:25,000
write on touch Point, whether 
it's on the website or on a vole

503
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,300
brochure. 
It is often a blind spot. 

504
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,200
People spend so much time in 
making it right in terms of 

505
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,300
layout and interaction or not, 
but then the copywriting is just

506
00:27:34,300 --> 00:27:37,800
so business Centre. 
So just by writing in a Human 

507
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,500
way. 
We can not only bring our 

508
00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:44,100
personality but also it can 
really help people to connect 

509
00:27:44,100 --> 00:27:48,000
with you and the plus point of 
this principle that a lot of 

510
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,000
people love about it is that it 
can be a quick fix. 

511
00:27:51,300 --> 00:27:54,200
Whereas less a dance with 
complexity or changing. 

512
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:57,400
The research practice might be 
quite complicated because you 

513
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:59,700
have to involve a lot of people.
You have to change the status 

514
00:27:59,700 --> 00:28:02,600
quo. 
Whereas imagine you don't change

515
00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:05,300
anything about your website or 
you change the copy the way you 

516
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,500
write. 
You can immediately see The 

517
00:28:07,500 --> 00:28:09,900
impact. 
So this can become a very 

518
00:28:09,900 --> 00:28:13,100
powerful tool to start. 
If you cannot change the rest. 

519
00:28:13,500 --> 00:28:16,600
The fifth principle is called 
design level experiences. 

520
00:28:16,900 --> 00:28:18,700
This is kind of a bringing it 
all together. 

521
00:28:18,700 --> 00:28:21,100
So I really struggled how to 
position this. 

522
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,500
But one of the key message I 
want to leave with here, is that

523
00:28:25,500 --> 00:28:28,500
why emotions really matter 
because human beings are 

524
00:28:28,500 --> 00:28:32,100
emotional being, and, in order 
to make that work, we need to 

525
00:28:32,100 --> 00:28:35,200
take the aesthetic part of the 
design, very seriously. 

526
00:28:35,500 --> 00:28:38,200
I think the design thinking the 
word became So popular. 

527
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:41,600
So we may have lost the 
significance of the look and 

528
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:43,900
feel part, because now we are 
talking about design as a 

529
00:28:43,900 --> 00:28:47,800
starting problem, but actually, 
look and feel is as important. 

530
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:51,700
So I wanted to leave this 
message that don't end that 

531
00:28:51,700 --> 00:28:56,000
functionally, good product. 
The end goal really is to leave 

532
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,800
the positive emotion that is 
materialized through 

533
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,500
amazing-looking film. 
Thanks for sharing your 

534
00:29:02,500 --> 00:29:05,100
Simplicity Diamond. 
I think each facet is pretty 

535
00:29:05,100 --> 00:29:07,200
interesting. 
So I'd like to go deeper. 

536
00:29:07,300 --> 00:29:09,800
For each of the facet, if you 
don't mind you start in the 

537
00:29:09,808 --> 00:29:13,500
beginning with empathy. 
I think this word is like jargon

538
00:29:13,500 --> 00:29:15,200
this day. 
Everyone is saying it. 

539
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,100
We have to be empathetic. 
We have to show custom empathy 

540
00:29:18,100 --> 00:29:20,300
and things like that. 
What is your definition of 

541
00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:22,400
empathy? 
And you kind of mention it in 

542
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,600
the book that Simplicity 
actually starts with empathy. 

543
00:29:25,900 --> 00:29:29,400
How can you see that relation? 
First of all, definition? 

544
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,700
I'm Cathy is quite simple. 
It's the ability to understand 

545
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:36,300
how other people think, and feel
and ability to see the world 

546
00:29:36,300 --> 00:29:39,400
through their eyes. 
So it really involves more than 

547
00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:41,300
your head. 
It involves your eyes. 

548
00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:44,400
It involved your heart because 
you need to feel what they are 

549
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:46,300
feeling. 
So that's the definition. 

550
00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:50,800
And as I said, while the term 
empathy is used, like you 

551
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:55,300
mentioned even jargon is true. 
We know a taste good, but there 

552
00:29:55,300 --> 00:29:59,000
is a strategic reason behind why
we have to cultivate empathy in 

553
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:02,400
an organization, especially if 
you were to task to come up with

554
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,100
Innovation and digital 
transformation strategy and so 

555
00:30:05,100 --> 00:30:07,400
forth. 
It's because when people, Are 

556
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,500
given opportunity to empathize. 
Something changes in us to see 

557
00:30:11,500 --> 00:30:14,600
the problem differently. 
So that means the research 

558
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,400
practice has to change. 
That means we should forget 

559
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,100
about building really nice 
presentation deck. 

560
00:30:20,100 --> 00:30:21,200
What? 
We found out. 

561
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,400
The better time spent will be 
really bringing the stakeholders

562
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,300
closer to the users. 
Of course. 

563
00:30:27,300 --> 00:30:29,700
We are not bunch of stalkers. 
We can always do that. 

564
00:30:29,708 --> 00:30:34,200
Then what if we capture those 
customers Behavior or what they 

565
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,700
are saying, they are feeling, 
you know, more rich. 

566
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,100
Heading form so that your 
stakeholders who will need to 

567
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:43,600
solve the problem with. 
You can really feel the way you 

568
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,800
feel. 
I know a lot of technical people

569
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,800
and designers. 
We are very passionate people. 

570
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:52,500
We know changes have to be done 
because we are at the front end.

571
00:30:52,700 --> 00:30:55,900
We are seeing the use of real 
testing where the key decision. 

572
00:30:55,900 --> 00:30:59,300
Makers, may not feel it. 
So to me and possess a tool to 

573
00:30:59,300 --> 00:31:03,600
really make them feel, so that's
why I called it is a fuel for, 

574
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:06,000
that's the definition and my 
point of view, how we can make 

575
00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:08,500
use of it. 
How How is that connected to 

576
00:31:08,500 --> 00:31:10,700
Simplicity? 
Can you tell me one? 

577
00:31:10,700 --> 00:31:13,500
Kind of example, when did you 
feel something more simple? 

578
00:31:14,100 --> 00:31:17,700
I like these days. 
The taxi ride hailing app before

579
00:31:17,700 --> 00:31:21,500
we had to maybe call or when out
to the side of the road just to 

580
00:31:21,500 --> 00:31:23,800
flag a taxi. 
But these days, you can always 

581
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:26,900
booked a taxi, maybe even some 
apps allow you to do it in few 

582
00:31:26,900 --> 00:31:28,800
clicks and then boom, the taxi 
arrives. 

583
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,700
Yes, so dad fell simple. 
Why do you think it is? 

584
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:35,100
Why is it simpler than the whole
days? 

585
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,200
I mean there was a phone number 
you can call. 

586
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:40,000
Taxi ten years ago. 
I think I think it's more 

587
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,000
convenient and it's 
self-service. 

588
00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:45,000
I just need to key in the 
important details without having

589
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,400
to talk spend a few minutes just
to talk and express my 

590
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,500
intention. 
Pack. 

591
00:31:49,500 --> 00:31:52,000
Some apps allow you to 
personalize like they say if 

592
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,200
your preference, your address, 
and things like that. 

593
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,300
So it allows me to do what I 
intend to do within a few 

594
00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:58,700
seconds. 
Hmm. 

595
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,000
Yeah, that's right. 
So I think this is a good 

596
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:04,300
example because I remember when 
I had to call the taxi, before 

597
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:07,200
the whole, grab an Uber era. 
I had to die. 

598
00:32:07,300 --> 00:32:09,000
Dial the number. 
I have to explain the same 

599
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,400
information again. 
And again, oh I live it's got 

600
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,200
Road here and there and then 
sometimes you have to wait and 

601
00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,800
then maybe you are walking down 
the staircase because you have 

602
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:20,800
to pick up your child. 
So by looking at those Behavior,

603
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:25,900
how can you help people to get 
home, faster easier, but then 

604
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:29,400
you may have this idea that what
if clearly taxi is not enough, 

605
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,300
hence. 
We have to leverage the private 

606
00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:33,400
cars, but then people may not 
trust. 

607
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:35,400
So, how can you then build a 
trust? 

608
00:32:35,500 --> 00:32:39,000
How can we make this service is 
I think we can share so that 

609
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,200
people don't feel. 
Okay. 

610
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,600
I'm on a stranger's car or 
something like that. 

611
00:32:42,700 --> 00:32:46,000
So by looking at people's 
behavior and also talking to 

612
00:32:46,000 --> 00:32:49,400
people, why do you prefer doing 
this or what if you get on 

613
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,500
somebody's car, how do you feel?
I'm afraid? 

614
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:52,800
What if I'm a kidnapper, 
whatever. 

615
00:32:53,100 --> 00:32:57,300
So those things will help you to
find a way to solve their 

616
00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:00,500
problem and also to deliver the 
better experience. 

617
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,000
So I think the way the 
Simplicity and empathy is 

618
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,100
connected. 
It's because the source of ideas

619
00:33:07,300 --> 00:33:10,300
Lies in people by understanding 
them. 

620
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:13,700
As a whole person will help us 
to come up with those ideas 

621
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:16,000
where to simplify and how to 
simplify. 

622
00:33:16,300 --> 00:33:17,600
But to me, that's the 
connection. 

623
00:33:18,100 --> 00:33:21,100
I can see the connection clearly
now, so if you empathize with 

624
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:24,100
people, you want to help solve 
their problems in a humanly 

625
00:33:24,100 --> 00:33:27,900
possible way, every human loves 
a simple Act of things. 

626
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,200
So nobody likes complexity. 
I'm sure. 

627
00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:33,400
So, by empathizing helping to 
solve people's problems, and 

628
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,100
that's why you will try to aim 
to come up with a simple 

629
00:33:36,100 --> 00:33:37,800
solution. 
As much as Possible. 

630
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,500
And that's why I think probably 
you can help to achieve 

631
00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:42,500
Simplicity if I can summarize 
it. 

632
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:47,000
Imagine if I was asking, users, 
like way before, grab an Uber 

633
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,000
days, what will be the way to 
make your life easier? 

634
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,000
Then people may say oh, yeah, 
then make the taxi available 

635
00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:57,100
every time or they may suggest a
few ideas, but then they may not

636
00:33:57,100 --> 00:34:00,600
be the Innovation. 
The idea comes from observing 

637
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:02,500
their behavior, why they 
struggle. 

638
00:34:02,900 --> 00:34:05,900
So, I think one of the mistakes 
that a lot of companies make is 

639
00:34:05,900 --> 00:34:08,500
asking their use. 
Sirs, what do you want? 

640
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,500
Some consumers may tell you what
they want, which may be the 

641
00:34:12,500 --> 00:34:15,300
right problem to starve. 
But I think first of all it's 

642
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:18,600
not customers job to tell us 
what will be the next big idea 

643
00:34:18,900 --> 00:34:22,199
and they cannot tell us. 
So we need to take the 

644
00:34:22,199 --> 00:34:24,199
ownership. 
It is our job. 

645
00:34:24,500 --> 00:34:28,400
What consumers can do for us is 
to share their behaviors. 

646
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,900
Your they need and it's our job 
to interpret to come up with 

647
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,100
Innovation opportunities. 
So that's why I think the idea 

648
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:39,400
that not just Survey or asking 
people. 

649
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:40,900
If there's one thing we could 
do. 

650
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:43,000
What would that be? 
Those typical research 

651
00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,199
questions. 
It really hinders organization 

652
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,699
from go deeper to look for 
really interesting yet. 

653
00:34:48,699 --> 00:34:50,600
Obvious Innovation 
opportunities. 

654
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:54,000
So that's why I insist a lot on 
the research method has to be 

655
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,000
much more experiential and we 
need to go deeper rather than 

656
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,300
increasing the sample size 
because the goal here is to get 

657
00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:04,200
inspired and identify 
opportunities that other people 

658
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:05,700
didn't see. 
Yeah. 

659
00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:08,800
There's a famous saying laughing
like Was Henry's for, if you ask

660
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:10,400
people what do they want that 
time? 

661
00:35:10,700 --> 00:35:13,300
They want faster. 
Horse potential of a car. 

662
00:35:13,500 --> 00:35:15,000
All right. 
He noticed that what people 

663
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,200
want, is the going a to be 
faster and he came up with the 

664
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:18,800
idea. 
Yeah. 

665
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:20,200
I think that's a very good 
analogy. 

666
00:35:20,500 --> 00:35:23,500
So let's move on to the next 
facet, which is about dancing 

667
00:35:23,500 --> 00:35:25,700
with complexity. 
There's one thing that you 

668
00:35:25,700 --> 00:35:29,900
explained pretty uniquely which 
is the term called pain sponge. 

669
00:35:30,100 --> 00:35:33,700
I know I can associate pain with
complexity, but tell us a little

670
00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:35,000
bit more. 
What do you mean by paying 

671
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,800
sponge? 
Well, okay. 

672
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,400
So the That's as complex. 
As I mentioned previously. 

673
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:43,800
It has a lot of methods, how to 
prototype how to visualize, and 

674
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,800
how to engage stakeholders to 
concrete, but then paint sponge 

675
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,500
is more like mindset. 
So, when we are in a project 

676
00:35:51,500 --> 00:35:54,000
such as improving customer is, 
and whether we use the word 

677
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,800
Simplicity or not, actually, 
it's quite hard to make things 

678
00:35:57,800 --> 00:35:59,700
simple. 
It's not easy. 

679
00:35:59,900 --> 00:36:03,100
Sometimes I felt like giving up 
because it's just people say no,

680
00:36:03,100 --> 00:36:06,200
we still have to add this 
information and why it's because

681
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,300
of we've been always He's doing 
this way or Mas, wouldn't 

682
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:11,100
approve it. 
There are so many reasons, but 

683
00:36:11,100 --> 00:36:13,500
then you have to kind of go as a
detective. 

684
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:16,700
Is it really true? 
Is there any other way we can do

685
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:20,600
so that work of Simplicity 
requires a lot of energy and 

686
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,700
passion, and discipline. 
There was a real situation where

687
00:36:23,700 --> 00:36:26,200
I was burying myself. 
Because at that time, I was 

688
00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,400
simplifying, one of our forms 
that is related to making 

689
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:34,100
investment decisions. 
So it was like 12 Pages, not 

690
00:36:34,100 --> 00:36:38,200
only the page number, but also 
the content was very And I was 

691
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,700
like staying up really late and 
working really hard and my boss 

692
00:36:42,700 --> 00:36:47,700
past five and then he said Jen. 
This is what is required to make

693
00:36:47,700 --> 00:36:50,400
things simple. 
So just suck it up and he said 

694
00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,600
that sounds like yeah, I'm 
trying to suck it up but it's 

695
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,400
just a pain is to so hard to 
swallow and then the next day he

696
00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,600
actually came to my desk with a 
real like a big sponge which is 

697
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,000
useful like scrubbing, floors 
Kingdom. 

698
00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,200
He has written pain, spawned 
with a marker and put it on my 

699
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,300
table and I had To laugh so 
much. 

700
00:37:08,500 --> 00:37:11,700
And then when I was looking at 
the sponge, yeah, actually, this

701
00:37:11,700 --> 00:37:14,300
is a great analogy. 
Kind of mindset that we need to 

702
00:37:14,300 --> 00:37:16,900
have. 
So the sponge if you think about

703
00:37:16,900 --> 00:37:20,700
if you spill milk, then you 
would soak those messy milk with

704
00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:22,700
your sponge. 
Then by the time, your sponge 

705
00:37:22,700 --> 00:37:26,300
became ugly and soaked with 
milk, the table become clean. 

706
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:30,900
So then I realize, okay, what if
our mindset is like we spawned 

707
00:37:31,100 --> 00:37:35,200
those spilled milk is a pain. 
So the more pain, we observe 

708
00:37:35,300 --> 00:37:37,100
their less pain, there is left 
for customers. 

709
00:37:37,300 --> 00:37:39,400
And then my thinking, when 
father, I was like, oh boy 

710
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,700
engineering here. 
Maybe pain is like there's the 

711
00:37:42,700 --> 00:37:45,300
physics term Law of 
Conservation. 

712
00:37:45,300 --> 00:37:49,500
So you cannot remove or reduce 
pain amount of pain will be 

713
00:37:49,500 --> 00:37:51,900
always there. 
I mean, if you just replace the 

714
00:37:51,900 --> 00:37:55,800
mass with pain, then are you 
going to relieve that pain for 

715
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:59,000
your customer to suck it up? 
Or are you gonna do it? 

716
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,500
So there's an inverse relation 
between the amount of pain 

717
00:38:02,500 --> 00:38:06,000
you're going to circle and then 
the better customer experience 

718
00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:08,800
is going to be. 
So we've been having a good time

719
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,200
with this pain, sponge everyone 
in the team had own sponge on 

720
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,100
the table to really promote the 
idea of Designing customer 

721
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,300
experience is painful, but we 
are the sponge. 

722
00:38:18,500 --> 00:38:20,700
Yes, that's have to pay his 
fines came about. 

723
00:38:21,100 --> 00:38:23,000
Wow. 
It's pretty interesting story 

724
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:25,400
and very insightful. 
In fact, I like it the law of 

725
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,000
conservation, right? 
So either you pass the pain to 

726
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,200
the customers or you actually, 
so to speak. 

727
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:32,600
Suck it up and better paying for
the customers. 

728
00:38:32,900 --> 00:38:35,800
I really like that. 
So, let's go to the next facet, 

729
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,400
which is about Focus. 
No, these days we have this 

730
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,300
tough problems, which is like, 
there are so many information 

731
00:38:41,300 --> 00:38:43,900
available there. 
So many Technologies coming to 

732
00:38:43,900 --> 00:38:45,900
us so many business 
opportunities. 

733
00:38:45,900 --> 00:38:48,100
So many problems to solve in the
first place. 

734
00:38:48,100 --> 00:38:52,100
How can we actually Focus? 
Because we all seem to want to 

735
00:38:52,100 --> 00:38:56,500
accomplish many things but it is
actually to the detriment of 

736
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:58,900
being simple, right? 
Like, you just want to focus on 

737
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,100
a few things. 
So how can you balance? 

738
00:39:01,100 --> 00:39:03,300
This? 
Like your company to achieve 

739
00:39:03,300 --> 00:39:06,700
Simplicity, but they don't feel 
fear of missing out in assets. 

740
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:09,700
That's right. 
Yes. 

741
00:39:09,700 --> 00:39:11,400
The focus is hard. 
Right? 

742
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:14,100
I mean, probably, this is the 
hardest thing we can do. 

743
00:39:14,100 --> 00:39:16,900
If you reflect our personal 
life, why do we have so many 

744
00:39:16,900 --> 00:39:19,800
clothes in our closet? 
It's just so hard to choose and 

745
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,500
how to get rid of. 
So, yeah, fomo is real in 

746
00:39:22,500 --> 00:39:25,700
business context, and 
especially, when the competitors

747
00:39:25,700 --> 00:39:29,300
are moving fast, non-industry 
players are entering to the 

748
00:39:29,300 --> 00:39:32,300
market. 
I mean, anxiety is real, isn't 

749
00:39:32,300 --> 00:39:33,700
it? 
So you mentioned, very 

750
00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:36,700
interesting thing, you know, yet
we need to focus on the fewer 

751
00:39:36,700 --> 00:39:39,200
things. 
Maybe it doesn't have to be 

752
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,600
fewer things. 
So the idea of focus, of course,

753
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,100
it'll be very natural eyes into 
fewer. 

754
00:39:45,500 --> 00:39:49,900
But I think it's a lot about 
finding the right thing to do. 

755
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,700
One of the concept I talk about 
is the notion jobs to be done. 

756
00:39:53,700 --> 00:39:57,900
This is a term that was coined 
by the Harvard Business School 

757
00:39:57,900 --> 00:40:01,600
Professor, Clayton Christensen, 
which is widely own Theory. 

758
00:40:01,700 --> 00:40:05,700
I don't have to probably go 
through in death, but I find the

759
00:40:05,700 --> 00:40:08,900
concept extremely useful in 
Really understanding. 

760
00:40:08,900 --> 00:40:10,500
What is the thing we need to be 
doing. 

761
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:13,500
So, let's say, just as a simple 
example. 

762
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:18,700
We wanted to, let's say design a
new service for we call it the 

763
00:40:18,700 --> 00:40:22,400
emerging of lunge, those young 
people who increasingly gaining 

764
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,700
wealth, but they're not yet 
private banking customers. 

765
00:40:25,100 --> 00:40:27,400
So, they don't belong to certain
segments. 

766
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:30,500
But then we see those emerging 
affluent people coming up. 

767
00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:33,300
What is our proposition? 
What are the things we need to 

768
00:40:33,300 --> 00:40:35,400
focus? 
Do we need to offer relationship

769
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,200
manager? 
Do we need to give them digital 

770
00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:38,900
tools? 
I mean, Are a lot of ideas out 

771
00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:42,600
there, but then when we look at 
their behavior, how do they 

772
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,500
currently make money? 
We may realize that what they 

773
00:40:46,500 --> 00:40:49,500
want is not the typical banking 
service. 

774
00:40:49,900 --> 00:40:53,000
There has been a lot of ideas. 
What if we offer them our 

775
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,000
special portal? 
Or dedicated relationship 

776
00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,100
manager, who can really bring 
them their wealth to the next 

777
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:01,300
level? 
Then we found, they are very 

778
00:41:01,300 --> 00:41:05,000
sufficient, kind of people. 
So we had to understand what are

779
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,500
they really trying to do? 
And we found that since they are

780
00:41:07,500 --> 00:41:09,900
young. 
They were very busy with picking

781
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:12,600
up their Milestones, having a 
baby. 

782
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,400
I want to have enough money 
saved so that I can start my own

783
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:17,800
business because I really want 
to kick start my business. 

784
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:20,800
I may be working for a corporate
but launching business has been 

785
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:24,200
my passion. 
Some people may want to focus on

786
00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:26,900
your family or some people want 
to pursue the word trouble, 

787
00:41:26,900 --> 00:41:30,100
whatever, but they seem to have 
a certain Milestones that people

788
00:41:30,100 --> 00:41:32,700
want to get done and they are 
very busy with it. 

789
00:41:33,000 --> 00:41:36,300
So, to me, that's the job. 
Taking off important Milestone 

790
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,100
getting married having a kid. 
It grunting my business. 

791
00:41:39,400 --> 00:41:43,900
The what if we know those jobs 
work backwards instead of what 

792
00:41:43,900 --> 00:41:46,000
are the products and services we
need to offer. 

793
00:41:46,300 --> 00:41:50,400
The better question is what are 
the things we can do for them to

794
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,600
take off their Milestones? 
That creates Focus? 

795
00:41:53,700 --> 00:41:57,200
Not because we are asking 
business to we do with whatever 

796
00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,900
you are doing. 
If we know what people are 

797
00:41:59,900 --> 00:42:02,000
trying to do the true jobs to be
done. 

798
00:42:02,300 --> 00:42:06,800
Then we can optimize our 
resources to really bring our 

799
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,400
value proposition. 
Then powerful and that resonated

800
00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:14,100
with our consumers. 
So why fewer things will come as

801
00:42:14,100 --> 00:42:18,400
a result, but really knowing the
true jobs to be done to me. 

802
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,200
That is the key concept that can
really guide us like the North 

803
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,100
Star. 
When we are so distracted by 

804
00:42:24,100 --> 00:42:27,200
this temptation, wanting to 
offer more things because the 

805
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,700
jokes won't change. 
I mean, you mentioned that you 

806
00:42:29,700 --> 00:42:31,500
may have recognized from your 
child. 

807
00:42:31,500 --> 00:42:34,100
When you have a child, you have 
certain things you want to do in

808
00:42:34,100 --> 00:42:36,600
life. 
So if we focus on those true 

809
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,300
jobs, To me, that's real Focus. 
Rather than we're going to 

810
00:42:40,300 --> 00:42:43,000
reduce certain things down to 
fewer things. 

811
00:42:43,300 --> 00:42:47,100
Yeah, so that's why I suggest 
the shift from doing more to 

812
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:52,000
less, but fewer but better so 
that fewer actually meant more 

813
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,600
on the knowing that fewer jobs, 
the really important jobs, that 

814
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,700
consumers trying to get done 
again, pretty insightful. 

815
00:42:58,700 --> 00:43:01,700
Because I think, yes, I agree 
that focus should not be just 

816
00:43:01,700 --> 00:43:05,200
lesser or fewer, but also, it 
has to be aligned with maybe 

817
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,400
your values right? 
Your North Star like you 

818
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,200
mentioned. 
Then, all the things I in 

819
00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:12,500
business, contexts the jobs to 
be done for your customers, love

820
00:43:12,500 --> 00:43:14,700
that, really. 
So, let's move to the next 

821
00:43:14,700 --> 00:43:17,100
facet, which you said, many 
people actually find it 

822
00:43:17,100 --> 00:43:19,500
interesting, which is called 
speak human. 

823
00:43:19,900 --> 00:43:22,600
And I know you have this thing 
called Ten Commandments of 

824
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,500
speaking human, it would 
probably not cover everything. 

825
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:28,600
But if you can mention some of 
them for people to learn about, 

826
00:43:28,700 --> 00:43:31,000
so what are some of the 
Commandments that you want to 

827
00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:33,600
share with us. 
Oh, well, I mean, since Henry 

828
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,900
read the book which are the 
coins that you liked most, maybe

829
00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:38,200
then we can start. 
From there. 

830
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:40,400
I like them all. 
So it's very hard for me to 

831
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:42,700
choose. 
Okay, let's start with the first

832
00:43:42,700 --> 00:43:46,200
one which is go for clarity, not
conciseness. 

833
00:43:46,300 --> 00:43:48,100
Okay. 
So this is the one that you 

834
00:43:48,100 --> 00:43:52,000
resonated most with is one of 
the things that strike out for 

835
00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,400
me because when we try to 
simplify most people again think

836
00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:59,400
of it like shorter sentences or 
use a word that can catch as 

837
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:02,700
much meaning as possible, but 
you say go for clarity. 

838
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:05,000
Not conciseness. 
Hmm. 

839
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,400
Yes, you are right. 
When it comes to Simplify, 

840
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,500
especially designing digital 
touch Point. 

841
00:44:10,500 --> 00:44:13,300
People think that the shorter, 
the better What word could be 

842
00:44:13,308 --> 00:44:16,400
most efficient in communicating 
that meaning? 

843
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,500
But then the key here is, how 
can you sound more human? 

844
00:44:20,600 --> 00:44:24,300
So the example I share with you 
here, when you have the internet

845
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:28,200
banking screen to transfer funds
instead of a beneficiary account

846
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,500
information, three word, very 
efficient yet. 

847
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:32,000
Who would you like to transfer 
money? 

848
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:34,500
To? 
It's actually a longer, but it 

849
00:44:34,500 --> 00:44:38,100
feels just simpler. 
And then instead of Of the 

850
00:44:38,100 --> 00:44:41,100
destination account, you can 
say, select your account to 

851
00:44:41,100 --> 00:44:43,400
Debbie from. 
So I think the benefits are 

852
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,000
twofold one, is it sounds 
friendly. 

853
00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:50,200
Second thing is it makes it 
clear in many situations. 

854
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:54,300
Sometimes people may not know 
what beneficiary mean I mean if 

855
00:44:54,300 --> 00:44:57,400
you are so used to those terms. 
Yes, but actually, when I came 

856
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,200
to Singapore, first time the 
word beneficiary was a what does

857
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,700
it mean beneficiary? 
Whereas, so, who do you want to 

858
00:45:02,700 --> 00:45:06,100
send money to? 
We just get it so you can really

859
00:45:06,100 --> 00:45:09,000
clarify. 
So, the goals To be Clarity 

860
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,500
rather than conciseness. 
That's something I learned in 

861
00:45:12,500 --> 00:45:14,600
the process. 
There are some other examples in

862
00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:17,200
the book, especially when you 
talk about the product features,

863
00:45:17,500 --> 00:45:21,200
when you try to reduce it into a
few more sentences, the meaning 

864
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:24,500
is already lost. 
As a consumer is very hard to 

865
00:45:24,500 --> 00:45:27,800
understand what it means. 
So we need to put a little bit 

866
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,100
of effort, maybe internally. 
We say that way we understand. 

867
00:45:31,100 --> 00:45:33,800
But do consumers, really 
understand what if we were 

868
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:37,500
explaining the face-to-face? 
Would you use our 24-hour word? 

869
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,600
Water, emergency medical system,
and we wouldn't say that way. 

870
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:43,300
Oh, yeah, something happened to 
you while you are traveling, 

871
00:45:43,500 --> 00:45:46,200
will make sure to evacuate you, 
and then we will send you home. 

872
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,200
So, the whole idea of this 
attend Commandments were 

873
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,700
inspired by, how can we speak 
like a human? 

874
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,100
And I think this trend is not 
new, when you look at Great 

875
00:45:57,100 --> 00:45:59,200
website, especially those 
startups. 

876
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:01,900
They are already taking that 
human tongue. 

877
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:05,000
There's no such a thing as a 
short human less voice less 

878
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,200
terms. 
These are all humanized. 

879
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:11,900
So Find the key thread of 
writing clearly in adapting the 

880
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:16,400
human tone the way we speak. 
So love that especially the 

881
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:19,500
example that you gave 
beneficiary in the first place. 

882
00:46:19,500 --> 00:46:22,600
When I read that word. 
I also did not know like what 

883
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,800
the hell is this and I could 
still see it in many Finance 

884
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:28,400
products Insurance products and 
things like that. 

885
00:46:28,500 --> 00:46:31,900
So there are terms that are very
specific to the business, to The

886
00:46:31,900 --> 00:46:35,400
Domain that me as a customer. 
We don't necessarily understand 

887
00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,500
it, nor we probably want to 
understand it. 

888
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:39,500
It deeper. 
And that's why you always have 

889
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:41,800
these third parties, right? 
Like middle layer people like 

890
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:43,800
the Financial Consultant and 
things like that. 

891
00:46:43,900 --> 00:46:47,600
The job is to explain to us what
it means rather than for us to 

892
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:49,300
just read and understand what it
means. 

893
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,600
So I like that speak human is 
actually very essential in the 

894
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:54,300
products and services that you 
offer. 

895
00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,400
So let's move on to the next one
which is about lovable 

896
00:46:57,400 --> 00:46:59,300
experience. 
So the first thing that stood 

897
00:46:59,300 --> 00:47:01,700
out for me is that you compare 
this thing. 

898
00:47:01,700 --> 00:47:04,300
These day people know about 
minimum viable product, which is

899
00:47:04,300 --> 00:47:07,900
sometimes called MVP and what 
you coin as Mm. 

900
00:47:07,900 --> 00:47:11,200
Mm, lovable product. 
So can you explain to us? 

901
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:13,700
What do you mean by minimum 
level product? 

902
00:47:13,700 --> 00:47:18,100
And how do you compare that with
MVP MVP is a great concept, 

903
00:47:18,100 --> 00:47:22,200
isn't coming from the whole lean
and agile movement, but then I 

904
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,800
noticed that in the organization
that this word was battery of 

905
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:29,900
used to justify, it is okay to 
launch product. 

906
00:47:29,900 --> 00:47:33,300
That may not work very well, 
because we are very interested 

907
00:47:33,300 --> 00:47:36,400
in learning fast and failing 
fast, which I agree that it's 

908
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,400
good to launch something. 
And they will learn from it yet.

909
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:42,100
Somehow the true. 
Meaning of MVP was kind of 

910
00:47:42,107 --> 00:47:45,500
misunderstood the true meaning 
of a minimum viable product was 

911
00:47:45,500 --> 00:47:50,600
the minimal version that will 
allow us to maximize the 

912
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:53,800
learning about the customer. 
So that is the original 

913
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,300
definition by Eric Ries who came
up with this concept. 

914
00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,700
The maximize learning is 
completely ignored and then 

915
00:48:01,700 --> 00:48:03,400
people were just launched some 
things. 

916
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,900
Just for the sake of launching, 
it saying that we're going to 

917
00:48:05,900 --> 00:48:09,000
improve it in Phase 2. 
You know, face to never come 

918
00:48:09,300 --> 00:48:12,600
face to become like a bucket 
list or like a parking lot. 

919
00:48:12,900 --> 00:48:15,900
Not that MVPs wrong. 
I mean, I really think that by 

920
00:48:15,900 --> 00:48:18,300
releasing something. 
If you can maximize your 

921
00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:21,700
learning, if you use it to your 
true intent, this is a great 

922
00:48:21,700 --> 00:48:23,600
concept. 
This is just that because of the

923
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,900
word minimal, viable product. 
We are abusing this word by 

924
00:48:27,900 --> 00:48:31,400
justifying not great product, 
being able to launch in the 

925
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,400
marketplace. 
So to change their mindset 

926
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,800
internally in, ocbc Bank are 
introduced the term meaning Only

927
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,600
love of the product just by 
changing viable too loveable. 

928
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,200
It makes people wonder how what 
is The Lovable? 

929
00:48:44,400 --> 00:48:47,200
Well lovable means that users 
will love it. 

930
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:50,300
Maybe there's a one thing, small
thing, whatever it is. 

931
00:48:50,500 --> 00:48:54,200
There's a one reason why people 
will be emotionally engaged with

932
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:55,400
us. 
So, okay. 

933
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:58,200
This product is not perfect. 
We haven't launched the Full 

934
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,500
Features yet. 
If there anything that can make 

935
00:49:01,500 --> 00:49:05,000
people love our products or 
Services, you can really shape 

936
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:07,500
people's mindset. 
So I think that's very powerful.

937
00:49:07,600 --> 00:49:10,600
Through way of actually being 
more true to the minimum. 

938
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,800
Viable product is the original 
concept. 

939
00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:16,700
And also you relate lovable, a 
lot with Aesthetics, right? 

940
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:21,000
The beauty part of, either the 
visuals or the experience. 

941
00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,200
Can you share with us? 
What is the importance of 

942
00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:26,200
Aesthetics these days? 
I know that as a human, we love 

943
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,900
to see beautiful stops, but when
you see how it gets implemented 

944
00:49:29,900 --> 00:49:33,300
in services or products, right? 
How do you actually use this as 

945
00:49:33,300 --> 00:49:35,900
tactics inside your products? 
Yeah. 

946
00:49:36,100 --> 00:49:39,100
So first of all, you notice that
The terminology that I use like 

947
00:49:39,100 --> 00:49:41,700
a result overall Aesthetics and 
beautiful experience. 

948
00:49:41,700 --> 00:49:44,100
I mean some people say yeah 
because you are a girl. 

949
00:49:44,200 --> 00:49:46,800
These are the terms that girls 
use some businesses. 

950
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,700
May not relate lovable. 
Our business has nothing to do 

951
00:49:49,700 --> 00:49:53,400
with loving something but I was 
mindful of that and I 

952
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:57,500
deliberately chose those words 
because it can stretch our 

953
00:49:57,500 --> 00:50:01,200
thinking as opposed to 
emotionally satisfying, you 

954
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:03,600
know, words like that or 
Pleasant. 

955
00:50:03,700 --> 00:50:07,500
These are very safe words yet. 
Our app has to be beautiful. 

956
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,100
I thought was our app has to be 
pleasant to look. 

957
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,200
It's just has a different kind 
of mental state, isn't it? 

958
00:50:13,400 --> 00:50:15,100
So that's where the term is 
comes in. 

959
00:50:15,500 --> 00:50:18,500
And then to your question how 
the sense of Aesthetics related 

960
00:50:18,500 --> 00:50:22,000
to simplicity's because again 
human beings are emotional. 

961
00:50:22,000 --> 00:50:25,600
Being I mean as you said is in 
our nature, we love beautiful 

962
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,300
things and it has very strong 
connection to idea of 

963
00:50:29,300 --> 00:50:32,800
Simplicity, when things are 
looking great. 

964
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:37,100
You are drawn to it. 
It simplifies people's decision.

965
00:50:37,500 --> 00:50:40,000
Oh, I just like it. 
There was one of the concepts 

966
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,800
that Frank by ocbc. 
The Millennials banking concept 

967
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:44,900
that we launched wanted to 
create. 

968
00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:48,900
If you go with rational approach
or we offer better product. 

969
00:50:48,900 --> 00:50:52,000
We offer better interest rate or
our people are great. 

970
00:50:52,100 --> 00:50:55,400
You go through things like 
Hardware Zone, compare the 

971
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,300
product which bank offers the 
best interest rate. 

972
00:50:58,500 --> 00:51:01,700
The decision-making process 
become very complicated. 

973
00:51:01,700 --> 00:51:05,700
Whereas if people see card 
design that all oh, yeah that 

974
00:51:05,700 --> 00:51:07,500
reminds me of my last trip in 
Paris. 

975
00:51:08,100 --> 00:51:09,900
Or dead reminds me of kind of 
person. 

976
00:51:09,900 --> 00:51:12,900
I am, I want to flesh that out 
whenever I open my wallet 

977
00:51:13,200 --> 00:51:15,500
decision making process become 
simpler. 

978
00:51:15,700 --> 00:51:20,000
So that intuitive connection 
with your customers can be 

979
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:24,400
realized through Aesthetics. 
So we cannot leave it to just 

980
00:51:24,400 --> 00:51:26,700
branding guidelines. 
Of course, we need to follow the

981
00:51:26,700 --> 00:51:29,000
branding guidelines but 
inconsistent is not enough. 

982
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,000
This is really about what are 
the things that we can do to 

983
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,000
really create that immediate 
attraction and then that can 

984
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:39,600
create the immediate decision. 
Making and how your loyalty. 

985
00:51:39,700 --> 00:51:42,200
So that's why it is tightly 
related to the concept of 

986
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,700
Simplicity. 
Yeah, again, I didn't see it. 

987
00:51:44,700 --> 00:51:46,700
That way. 
When you are example, present 

988
00:51:46,700 --> 00:51:48,800
something that is more 
aesthetically pleasing. 

989
00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:51,800
It simplifies your 
decision-making listening to 

990
00:51:51,800 --> 00:51:53,300
what you said. 
I think it makes sense. 

991
00:51:53,500 --> 00:51:56,100
I think that's where the 
importance of beautifying your 

992
00:51:56,100 --> 00:51:58,700
products and services. 
It's really, really important 

993
00:51:58,700 --> 00:52:00,900
when you work with customers and
users. 

994
00:52:01,200 --> 00:52:03,800
So again, thanks for sharing all
these Simplicity Diamond 

995
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:08,200
framework and the essence of the
principles again for Who wants 

996
00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,000
to start embarking on this 
journey? 

997
00:52:10,200 --> 00:52:13,100
How can they start? 
Especially when they work in 

998
00:52:13,100 --> 00:52:16,000
traditional companies? 
Or is there any difference if 

999
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:19,500
they work in a startups like 
company that has no Legacy? 

1000
00:52:19,500 --> 00:52:22,200
So to speak. 
Well, I mean, the book clearly 

1001
00:52:22,200 --> 00:52:25,100
has written based on my 
experience in Legacy company. 

1002
00:52:25,300 --> 00:52:27,900
So I must say, I don't have 
enough experience to talk on 

1003
00:52:27,900 --> 00:52:31,100
behalf of startup companies. 
But again the idea of Simplicity

1004
00:52:31,100 --> 00:52:34,300
whether you are designing 
something for your customers as 

1005
00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:36,900
a start-up or as a legacy 
company. 

1006
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:41,000
Same Isn't it since my idea is 
really to focus on your 

1007
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,900
customers. 
So I think they can also benefit

1008
00:52:43,900 --> 00:52:46,900
from this concept, where to 
start. 

1009
00:52:47,100 --> 00:52:51,400
I typically suggest ideally, we 
look at how do we do, research? 

1010
00:52:51,500 --> 00:52:54,200
How do we work with our team and
stakeholders? 

1011
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,000
How do we create value 
proposition? 

1012
00:52:56,300 --> 00:52:58,600
And how do we, then create the 
rubber experience? 

1013
00:52:58,800 --> 00:53:01,900
Ideally, it has to be done in 
sequence, but it doesn't have to

1014
00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:05,800
be we can really start from 
whichever principles that speak 

1015
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,200
to us most. 
So, Like I've seen many 

1016
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,800
companies Who start from speak 
human before they go to change 

1017
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,000
the research or whatnot. 
They just look at one of the 

1018
00:53:15,100 --> 00:53:16,800
could be website. 
It could be product brochure. 

1019
00:53:17,300 --> 00:53:20,900
They just start and then measure
the impact, then tell the story.

1020
00:53:21,300 --> 00:53:24,600
Then you win the customers, your
stakeholders support. 

1021
00:53:24,700 --> 00:53:26,700
For instance, of one of the 
banks in Korea. 

1022
00:53:26,700 --> 00:53:29,900
I had workshop with recently. 
There's all the five things 

1023
00:53:29,900 --> 00:53:31,900
great, but we just don't have 
time to months later. 

1024
00:53:31,900 --> 00:53:33,700
We have this product launch and 
next week. 

1025
00:53:33,700 --> 00:53:37,000
We have to get our CEOs by in 
and then they ended up just 

1026
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,900
applies. 
Speak human Concept in one of 

1027
00:53:38,900 --> 00:53:42,100
the new product brochure. 
They redesign everything only 

1028
00:53:42,100 --> 00:53:45,500
the browser level and then CEO 
gave them a standing ovation. 

1029
00:53:45,700 --> 00:53:48,700
He said, oh really love it. 
I immediately get it and then 

1030
00:53:48,700 --> 00:53:51,900
they got the support and they 
were able to launch on other 

1031
00:53:51,900 --> 00:53:54,300
aspects of their custom 
experience designed. 

1032
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:58,500
So yes, I think starting 
somewhere and measuring impact 

1033
00:53:58,500 --> 00:54:02,800
will be the best way to start. 
So how about if one wants to 

1034
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:04,700
implement Simplicity in their 
life. 

1035
00:54:05,100 --> 00:54:07,400
Is that something that you can 
also apply this? 

1036
00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:10,600
Simplicity diamond ore. 
That is a very difficult 

1037
00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:14,800
question because I always say I 
promote simplicity at work for 

1038
00:54:14,800 --> 00:54:17,600
simplifying. 
My whole life is very difficult.

1039
00:54:17,700 --> 00:54:21,700
That allow me to have empathy 
for my partners who are 

1040
00:54:21,700 --> 00:54:24,300
typically the owner of a product
owner of the channel. 

1041
00:54:24,700 --> 00:54:27,600
My life is my own. 
So I cannot be consultant to my 

1042
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,700
own life. 
When you come to the only life. 

1043
00:54:29,700 --> 00:54:32,800
I found, it's difficult. 
It's very, very difficult. 

1044
00:54:32,900 --> 00:54:36,800
Especially the focus area. 
What is my true jobs, how can I 

1045
00:54:36,808 --> 00:54:38,300
then price? 
Sighs my time. 

1046
00:54:38,300 --> 00:54:42,300
And how can I then design my 
daily routine in a way that I 

1047
00:54:42,300 --> 00:54:45,000
can really focus on what truly 
matters. 

1048
00:54:45,000 --> 00:54:48,000
That makes me not only easy to 
do but also makes me happy. 

1049
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:51,100
So that'll be my next research 
project or together. 

1050
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,400
But I think, based on the book 
concept. 

1051
00:54:54,400 --> 00:54:59,400
I really try to refrain every 
day whenever the situation comes

1052
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:03,300
in, whenever things go out of 
the way that I hope that didn't 

1053
00:55:03,300 --> 00:55:05,100
happen. 
I try to refrain from the 

1054
00:55:05,100 --> 00:55:07,300
situation and then learn from 
me. 

1055
00:55:07,700 --> 00:55:11,700
Another thing I try to adapt to 
simplify my life with some sort 

1056
00:55:11,700 --> 00:55:15,100
of idea of prototyping. 
So, what if I really wanted to 

1057
00:55:15,100 --> 00:55:16,600
let's say, set up my own 
business. 

1058
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:20,000
What if I take one month, leave 
and live their life, what? 

1059
00:55:20,000 --> 00:55:23,600
Should my daily routine be like,
but that I kind of gain clarity 

1060
00:55:23,700 --> 00:55:27,600
through the act of prototyping. 
So, these are the things I do 

1061
00:55:27,600 --> 00:55:30,900
deliberately consciously, but to
be honest with you, I mean, this

1062
00:55:30,900 --> 00:55:33,200
is a topic that I cannot advise 
you on. 

1063
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:35,400
That's all right. 
There are things that we can 

1064
00:55:35,400 --> 00:55:38,500
learn, like, prototyping, spend 
some Time to actually do the 

1065
00:55:38,500 --> 00:55:41,000
things that you want and see 
whether you like it or whether 

1066
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,900
there's any success coming out 
of it. 

1067
00:55:42,900 --> 00:55:45,800
So I'm still intrigued like you 
mentioned a couple of times in 

1068
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,800
our conversation so far. 
There are people who think that 

1069
00:55:48,800 --> 00:55:52,900
a gel lean design thinking and 
all this Simplicity. 

1070
00:55:53,100 --> 00:55:55,300
They might be at odds with each 
other. 

1071
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:57,900
So what will be a message on 
this topic? 

1072
00:55:58,100 --> 00:56:00,900
How do you think all these 
methodologies can actually work 

1073
00:56:00,900 --> 00:56:04,200
together side by side in order 
to achieve a big outcome? 

1074
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:09,400
Yeah, so I had to go through Do 
training myself because I do 

1075
00:56:09,400 --> 00:56:12,000
understand what it means and 
then I've been running a lot of 

1076
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:14,500
others French as well. 
To be honest with you. 

1077
00:56:14,500 --> 00:56:16,700
I think I'll just compare 
between the design thinking or 

1078
00:56:16,707 --> 00:56:19,000
job. 
There's a huge overlap in terms 

1079
00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:22,000
of empowering people 
self-organizing could put 

1080
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:25,300
iterating and learn and putting 
customer at the center of the 

1081
00:56:25,300 --> 00:56:27,800
process. 
We constantly look at what 

1082
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,900
works, what doesn't, how to use 
those things. 

1083
00:56:31,100 --> 00:56:34,500
I mean, mainly because there are
like agile, scrum Masters and 

1084
00:56:34,500 --> 00:56:37,900
product owner and certain robust
design thinking is like, So 

1085
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:40,700
break, right. 
There's no certification. 

1086
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:43,200
I mean, I'm running 
certification program with semi 

1087
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,500
Academy, but to be honest, 
there's no one governing body. 

1088
00:56:46,500 --> 00:56:49,700
There's no different roles, Etc.
So it's quite hard. 

1089
00:56:49,900 --> 00:56:53,200
So I think this is something I 
really admire people who found 

1090
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,400
it from that org, really 
standardized. 

1091
00:56:55,500 --> 00:56:58,000
That's maybe it's something that
design Community has to learn. 

1092
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,600
How do we tend to standardize 
the process so that people can 

1093
00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:02,600
adapt from it. 
So that's one for me. 

1094
00:57:02,600 --> 00:57:06,300
The best formula found out is 
the idea of the design thinking 

1095
00:57:06,300 --> 00:57:09,400
can be very powerful. 
Before we get to the product 

1096
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,600
backlog, to identify all the 
things we want to do, because 

1097
00:57:12,600 --> 00:57:17,100
once we are in the agile mode, 
it may not give us enough mental

1098
00:57:17,100 --> 00:57:21,200
space to really go deeper time. 
Box is a great concept, not the 

1099
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,800
time box is wrong. 
But one of the thing I often see

1100
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:27,600
is once we have the product 
backlog, then we are very busy 

1101
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:30,300
with that, iterating, and 
testing and building and all. 

1102
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:34,800
So we may lose the big pictures.
So when I design the design 

1103
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:38,500
Sprint framework, I suggested, 
why don't we Really use design 

1104
00:57:38,500 --> 00:57:41,100
thinking not that I want to 
distinguish all those different 

1105
00:57:41,100 --> 00:57:44,600
terms when we don't know what 
problem we are starving. 

1106
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,500
Or in other words at the very 
beginning of the process. 

1107
00:57:47,700 --> 00:57:50,800
It can be time box to. 
So you can be one week or two 

1108
00:57:50,800 --> 00:57:52,600
weeks. 
This is really time for 

1109
00:57:52,600 --> 00:57:57,100
Discovery so that everyone in 
the team has the opportunity to 

1110
00:57:57,100 --> 00:57:58,800
empathize. 
With the end users. 

1111
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,800
They already have some 
high-level picture together in 

1112
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,100
this stage. 
It's very important to involve 

1113
00:58:05,100 --> 00:58:08,000
people from technology people 
from And complex. 

1114
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,300
They shouldn't be involved. 
Only, at the later stage. 

1115
00:58:10,400 --> 00:58:13,400
Everybody will come together in 
the beginning to really explore.

1116
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:14,900
What kind of problems we are 
starving. 

1117
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,400
Because today's environment is 
changing so fast the way to win,

1118
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:21,900
is to identify the right problem
to solve, rather than we are 

1119
00:58:21,900 --> 00:58:24,400
solving the problem. 
So, I think I'll dial is great 

1120
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,400
in solving design, thinking can 
be great in identifying, the 

1121
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:30,900
problem to solve. 
So, hence in my mentor more, I 

1122
00:58:30,908 --> 00:58:34,500
tend to put some sort of 
exploratory time using assign 

1123
00:58:34,500 --> 00:58:37,700
thinking, but then the moment we
feel we identified Oh, those 

1124
00:58:37,700 --> 00:58:40,700
customer jobs. 
Then I think I can come in to 

1125
00:58:40,700 --> 00:58:43,900
reiterate what we learned in the
initial part of the project. 

1126
00:58:43,900 --> 00:58:46,200
So that's how I would combine 
this. 

1127
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:49,600
Thanks for sharing your 
connection with this Asia and 

1128
00:58:49,600 --> 00:58:51,800
lean. 
I'm sure many people who are in 

1129
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:54,400
the industry these days. 
There are so many methodologies 

1130
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,400
out there. 
People also like sometimes 

1131
00:58:56,400 --> 00:58:57,200
confused. 
Okay. 

1132
00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,400
Should I follow in jail? 
Should I follow lean should? 

1133
00:58:59,400 --> 00:59:03,100
I follow design thinking 
experience design and so many 

1134
00:59:03,100 --> 00:59:04,500
others, which I probably don't 
know. 

1135
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:06,800
So thanks for sharing your 
thoughts on this. 

1136
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,100
At least we have to end the 
conversation. 

1137
00:59:09,100 --> 00:59:11,700
It's been a pleasure Pleasant 
conversation. 

1138
00:59:11,700 --> 00:59:14,400
I learned a lot. 
So before we end, I normally ask

1139
00:59:14,400 --> 00:59:17,800
this question, about three 
technical leadership is them so 

1140
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,600
soon. 
Would you be able to share your 

1141
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:21,400
wisdom for us? 
Okay. 

1142
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,400
So you said three things, right?
Can I say for things instead? 

1143
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,000
Go ahead? 
Okay. 

1144
00:59:27,200 --> 00:59:30,300
And work with so many. 
Brilliant technology people. 

1145
00:59:30,500 --> 00:59:33,500
Also design is actually very 
technical practice, isn't it? 

1146
00:59:33,700 --> 00:59:38,100
So one thing I would like to 
leave them with Would be the 

1147
00:59:38,100 --> 00:59:41,400
self-awareness. 
What am I really good at? 

1148
00:59:41,600 --> 00:59:44,800
What am I struggling? 
But at the same time, instead of

1149
00:59:44,800 --> 00:59:47,000
really focusing on how can I 
improve my weakness? 

1150
00:59:47,300 --> 00:59:50,600
Working on the strength? 
I think this is a great way of 

1151
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,000
improving our leadership and 
scope of influence. 

1152
00:59:53,500 --> 00:59:57,600
Second thing will be the idea 
that our energy is finite 

1153
00:59:57,900 --> 01:00:01,100
designers. 
And tech people are very 

1154
01:00:01,100 --> 01:00:04,000
passionate group of people. 
We care about what kind of 

1155
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,300
product we are making whether 
people will love our product. 

1156
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,100
Want to turn into the states has
called, These are really group 

1157
01:00:10,100 --> 01:00:12,300
of passionate people. 
Yet. 

1158
01:00:12,300 --> 01:00:14,100
We need to take care of 
ourselves. 

1159
01:00:14,300 --> 01:00:16,300
So, we need to pick a right 
better to fight. 

1160
01:00:16,700 --> 01:00:20,300
And best way of maintaining our 
energy and passion will be 

1161
01:00:20,300 --> 01:00:22,400
getting our daily routine. 
In order. 

1162
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:26,800
In terms of giving ourselves 
could sleep and time to rest and

1163
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,300
all this. 
So all those daily practice will

1164
01:00:29,300 --> 01:00:33,300
lead us to Greatness the third 
one, which I believe will be 

1165
01:00:33,300 --> 01:00:37,300
becoming master has something 
going deep rather than going 

1166
01:00:37,400 --> 01:00:40,000
Broad, as I said, for instance, 
if you are practice design, 

1167
01:00:40,000 --> 01:00:44,000
thinking the proficiency of the 
tool, will breathe, the agility,

1168
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:46,300
rather than, oh, I'm using a jar
and I'm using this. 

1169
01:00:46,300 --> 01:00:50,300
I think I'm using lean really 
knowing the method at a greater 

1170
01:00:50,300 --> 01:00:54,900
depth and having the experience 
from inception of the project to

1171
01:00:54,900 --> 01:00:58,000
the implementation. 
Once you've gone through that 

1172
01:00:58,000 --> 01:01:01,100
process many, many times. 
I think you will gain your own 

1173
01:01:01,100 --> 01:01:04,400
Enlightenment. 
So that Master is something that

1174
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,800
we need in today's world. 
First one is, we didn't To tell 

1175
01:01:07,800 --> 01:01:11,300
stories that I think leadership 
is all about inspiring others. 

1176
01:01:11,500 --> 01:01:14,800
So, when tech people have great 
ideas, instead of trying to 

1177
01:01:14,800 --> 01:01:19,300
appeal, your ideas, to your 
audience, through logic or Trend

1178
01:01:19,300 --> 01:01:21,100
or data. 
On top of that. 

1179
01:01:21,100 --> 01:01:24,300
I think we should be able to 
weave our Rider into stories, 

1180
01:01:24,600 --> 01:01:28,000
especially having the end user 
as the main character. 

1181
01:01:28,300 --> 01:01:31,500
How will we change their lives? 
And I think that will really 

1182
01:01:31,500 --> 01:01:33,500
help us to increase our 
leadership. 

1183
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:35,800
Thanks also for sharing this 
wisdom. 

1184
01:01:36,100 --> 01:01:38,900
I love the way that you 
Emphasize the fourth wisdom, 

1185
01:01:38,900 --> 01:01:42,100
which is about telling stories. 
So if the way this podcast 

1186
01:01:42,100 --> 01:01:45,300
contains a lot of stories from 
you where we can all learn as 

1187
01:01:45,300 --> 01:01:48,500
well and how to achieve 
Simplicity in our work and daily

1188
01:01:48,500 --> 01:01:50,500
life. 
So, thanks again, Gene for 

1189
01:01:50,500 --> 01:01:52,200
people who would like to connect
with you. 

1190
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,300
Or maybe ask further about this 
topic. 

1191
01:01:54,300 --> 01:01:58,200
Where can they find you online? 
So I have a website called 

1192
01:01:58,200 --> 01:02:03,000
design for company.com, which 
has been my personal blogging 

1193
01:02:03,000 --> 01:02:07,200
space since I don't know, 2012. 
When I started my see. 

1194
01:02:07,400 --> 01:02:09,300
Us attorney. 
So you'll find my really old 

1195
01:02:09,300 --> 01:02:12,500
blocks there, but now it has 
become my company website. 

1196
01:02:12,500 --> 01:02:16,300
So it has a tools and stared a 
blog is a big component of it, 

1197
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,500
and there are ways to say hi and
engage me for any design 

1198
01:02:20,500 --> 01:02:22,100
conversations. 
Thanks. 

1199
01:02:22,100 --> 01:02:24,400
Again, Jin. 
I hope we can see more and more 

1200
01:02:24,400 --> 01:02:27,400
simplified business process and 
things like that in the world, 

1201
01:02:27,500 --> 01:02:29,500
hence. 
It improves our lives and our 

1202
01:02:29,500 --> 01:02:32,500
emotional being. 
It was my pleasure and thanks 

1203
01:02:32,500 --> 01:02:35,800
for asking me all those tough 
questions, which made me to read

1204
01:02:35,800 --> 01:02:38,900
my book one more time. 
I really enjoyed all the 

1205
01:02:38,900 --> 01:02:40,900
questions and the conversation 
with you. 

1206
01:02:40,900 --> 01:02:45,800
Thank you. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1207
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,400
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1208
01:02:48,700 --> 01:02:51,600
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1209
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,900
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1210
01:02:54,900 --> 01:02:57,200
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1211
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:00,500
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1212
01:03:00,500 --> 01:03:03,900
review and feedback. 
It really, really helps me a lot

1213
01:03:03,900 --> 01:03:06,400
in order to grow these podcasts 
better. 

1214
01:03:06,900 --> 01:03:10,200
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1215
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,600
the episode page at tackle, the 
journal The death website, 

1216
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,000
including the full transcript, 
interesting quotes, and links to

1217
01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,900
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1218
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:23,200
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the show's mailing 

1219
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:27,000
list on pack Legion of the deaf 
to get notified for any future 

1220
01:03:27,000 --> 01:03:29,300
episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1221
01:03:29,300 --> 01:03:31,700
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1222
01:03:31,900 --> 01:03:32,500
Goodbye.