The way I Define Simplicity is the act of doing something easy
combined with positive, emotional effect.
So in one sentence Simplicity is an experience that make things
easy for users and that lives positive emotions because that
emotion makes you feel great that emotions make you want to
do more business with some products or Brands.
So usability part and the emotion part combined together.
That's what I mean by simplicity.
Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya be Robin.
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sustainably producing. Show every week for today's
episode. I am so excited to share my
lovely conversation with Jin Cong.
Molar. Jin is an award winning customer
experience, strategies designed practitioner and the author of
The Simplicity playbook for innovators.
She helped design leadership positions to create values and
bottom line impact. For 20 years in the large
Financial Services firms such as ocbc Bank in Singapore and
Credit Suisse in Switzerland and has led The user experience
consulting services for pharmaceutical companies.
Her design methodologies have helped wealth management,
private and Retail Banking and also Insurance businesses to
drive successful, customer experience and digital
transformation initiatives. She was the driving force behind
Frank by ocbc, an award-winning Millennial banking concept and
the ocbc one wealth app, which drove successful digital sales
and won her a Singapore. Good design mock go.
The ward in 2017 Simplicity. I'm sure all of us have heard
this term being mentioned a few times in books courses seminars
and trainings. It is one of the words that is
commonly coined, this days that is highly associated with great
user experience, efficient workflow and business processes.
However, Simplicity itself is sometimes vaguely described and
many people have different interpretations of it.
In this episode Jean shared. With me her unique and
insightful perspectives on Simplicity and how by striving
towards Simplicity. It will naturally lead to Great
Innovations. She shared with me in detail,
her powerful framework Simplicity diamond and it's five
different facets. That is extremely powerful to
help us Embrace Simplicity in dealing with different aspects
of business. Practices, products and
services. She also shared her point of
view on a gel and design thinking and how Can combine
both methodologies together in order to solve the right
problems for our customers and users?
You also do not want to miss her file sharing on a concept called
pain sponge, which provides a great mindset analogy for
delivering better customer experience.
I really enjoy my conversation with Jean.
I learned a lot and I hope you will enjoy this episode as well.
And if you like it, consider helping the show by living it a
rating review or comment on your podcast app, all social media
channels, those reviews and comments are one of the best
ways to get these podcasts to reach more listeners and
hopefully they can also benefit from the contents in this
podcast. So let's get this episode
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tracks. Hey everyone, welcome back to
another show of the technology on our podcast today.
I have a special guest with me. Her name is Jin Cong.
I hope I pronounce the name correctly.
So I Found Jeans book in one of the local bookstore few weeks
back. So, the book stood out.
For me because the shape is vertically tall instead of a
horizontal or like normal book size and it has a very
interesting conflict in order to promote the message about
Simplicity. The book is called the
Simplicity playbook for innovators.
So I find that the message inside is pretty good.
Didn't also spend a lot of time in Singapore and that's why I
love stories in the book actually came from her
experience in Singapore. So Jean, looking forward to have
a chat with you. Hopefully, you can educate us
about simplicity. For having me so DNS normal.
In my podcast to start with, would you be able to introduce
yourself? Maybe about your career Journey,
any highlights or turning points?
Okay. So yes, my journey has started
as a designer. So, I studied visual
communication and product design in South Korea.
So, my name's Ian come comes from South Korea name.
If you're into Korean, dramas, probably, you're familiar with
those names, back in the days design was really about making
stuff. We didn't talk about design
thinking or innovation. So I come from that background
where we were very mindful of or very excited about the art of
making the craft side of design. So I remember one of the classes
work, our design class where we had to send these plastic to
model the shape of the car. And there has been product
design class where I had to go out and observe people trying to
write down everything and then come up with the ideas and
sketch out a lot of concept. So that was my background.
So I think this idea of design as a craft shaped my design
practice, as well as principles even now.
I mean actual concept of design has evolved so much.
So I started my career as user experience designer.
My career has started in Switzerland and I was working as
a usability expert and UI designers for manufacturers to
record companies. So I haven't started my design
journey in a very sexy place where you know ads or creative.
I was very busy with clarify. Find the complex stuff, but I
found that there was very rewarding because pharmaceutical
as well as financial services are very important part of
people's business. Yet.
It was very design from an organizational point of view.
So that was my motivation. The Turning Point really came
when I chanced upon the word user experience with a quite new
words, at that time was more about usability or user
interface design. I learned the term when Google's
I mean now she is the CEO. Yahoo, Marissa Mayer when she
was heading the user experience team at Google.
She was featured in Fortune like the woman behind Google's
experience or something like that.
And then the idea of experience really capture my attention.
Wow, experience People Like Us can design Human Experience.
Then around the time, I happen to be at a usability conference
because nobody talked about experience that time.
And then I met somebody who was heading customer experience team
at credits with your my eyes were widened.
Oh my God, I have to work there. So I immediately walk into the
sky and talk to him and I happened to get a job there.
And of course he became my mentor and lifelong friend.
So that's how I started my so-called design Journey back in
around the time. The global financial crisis
happened as a customer experience designer.
And it was fascinating to me because the idea of usability
can be applied in many aspects of experience such as process
paper. Product anything even the
physical space. So then interesting opportunity
came up. The idea that we can start this
customer experience practice in Singapore, directly under the
CEOs strategy. So, some people from Credit,
Suisse, be moved to take up this opportunity.
We one of the founding members of group customer experience,
in, on CBC bank, one of the largest banks in Singapore.
And then we started this journey.
How do we reuse customer centricity design the Since so
that the reason why people bank with us, if not because we offer
slightly better interest rate. If not, because the branch
happened to be just nearby if, because the experience is way
better, that job was supposed to last two years because I had two
years contract in the thinking. They're okay, two years less
work really hard. I'm gonna go back.
But then I think the idea of Designing a new experience and
driving change took a long time. It was not an easy process at
the same time. Very rewarding process.
So I ended up staying with the ocbc bank, almost 10 years.
During the time. My last Turning Point came in
when the idea of design cannot be reside in one Department.
We started as a group customer experience, but with a digital
technology and fintech disruptive technology around us.
The idea that these kind of capabilities can be driven by a
few individuals in a team, didn't really work for the bank.
There's a mandate to look for ways to To scale with this way
of thinking. So since 2017.
I've been very interested in looking at.
What is the commonality between the say, a dial, or design
thinking or lean? I mean, there are a lot of
methodologies out there and what are the principles rather than
method? They can really Empower every
single individuals to really challenge the status quo, and
make the right decision and whatever they do.
And I begin to believe that design is a tool, can be very
powerful that can drive change. And to Our people and to bring
people together to solve problems, more creative way.
So yes, that has been my Journey.
The book. I've written really captures,
big part of my journey. How the idea of experience
simple experience can Thrive the competitive Advantage.
At the same time. This doesn't have to be the art
work of Genius. It can be really anyone who's
mindful of those principles and tools and applying it and then
having fun along the way. So that was my journey.
Sorry. I think it was really long.
Introduction, that's alright. So thanks for sharing your
story. When I read the book.
A lot of examples came from your 10 years experience in ocbc.
So you must have overcome some challenges in terms of changing
the mindset of the Traditional Bank thinking right?
Like for example, how do you implement this whole customer
experience revamping it or even like invent a new way of doing
business with the customers? So what are some of the
challenges that you overcame when you work on these
challenges? Well there have Many challenges.
I think there are maybe three things.
One is the idea of customer-centric a lot of
companies say it but how do we really walk the talk?
So for instance in order to build something that is useful
and easy and pleasurable for customers.
We have to understand who they are, what they do, how they
behave. But then the research practice
has been very much based on. On the quantitative, we could do
want to run survey and understand.
Oh, actually, we don't have to run the research because the
famous Consulting companies like McKinsey.
They already have paper, so we know what they want.
So the idea that we can really stay humble.
Try to go out there, see people, it was a big mindset shift for
many project members. Why do we need to spend time in
really talking to real user when we have a data?
So that was one of the thing. But then the way me My team
members over came with it was really involving them in the
research process. We bunch of designers.
We went out and we spoke to people and tada.
This is the outcome when we involve them our stakeholders in
who's the owner of the product or process or channel in the
research process as a web server.
So we would rather expose what people say how people do things
in front of them. It's more like giving our
stakeholders opportunity to see how users are behaving and
thinking, and saying, Saying directly.
So that was very interesting process because the moment
people see something changes in them.
So I call it power over a theme with empathy is not a personal
trait. Nurses are usually very
empathetic. So people think, okay.
I'm Percy, of course, we have to be empathetic, but it may not be
very tangible. What does it mean be empathetic
in our project? But I think it's really more of
having that opportunity to meet people directly.
See people directly then, something changes in someone.
I I believe that there is a direct connection between being
able to empathize and being able to see the problem differently.
So when stakeholders experienced it they wanted more, they see
the need for why time spent on the standing customers behave at
a greater depth that really pays off.
So that's one thing. Another challenge could be the
idea that all design thinking takes too long.
We have to deliberate this by yesterday.
My boss wanted it like now. Now, let's not do design
thinking just to ajar. So they look at the method as if
other will make a pastor design thinking make us go deeper and
soul-searching kind of thing. Where is I think one of the
things I learned is that it's not about what method.
We adopt isn't really about the proficiency when people are
Master at something, then the speed comes naturally.
So, one of the way I overcame was first of all, to send out
the message, it's not about Authority, something.
Actually. There's a huge overlap between
those two things. And really showing the impact by
timeboxing it. When we are able to focus, even
though we spend time with the customers and we spent time in
prototyping, menu options. If you are good at it, you can
be actually very fast. So that was the second thing.
Third thing might be the importance of Storytelling.
I think people find it hard to change because they don't see
the need for it in order to really inspire people why we
need to go that direction. Why we need to shift our
thinking the best way to do it. It's not through building.
Very smart power point. It's really to tell stories.
Sometimes we would take a video of sour consumers day in our
life. Sometimes, we would record some
of the codes how they struggle in making certain financial
decision and those stories can move our stakeholders so that
they see the need for change. I like the last part where you
tell about storytelling because in the last few years or so, I
think. I found a lot of advertisements,
this day is about storytelling, how the business is actually
conveying what they do by telling a story inside the
advertisement things like, for example, Insurance Banking and
so on. I think this is quite
heartwarming I should say because the customers can relate
better to what the business is doing, which brought me into the
topic of the day, which is about Simplicity.
Your book is all about simplicity.
So it's very simple to say, but what is actually the definition
of simplicity? So before I answer that, what do
you think is a Simplicity? Well, in my opinion, Simplicity
is something that is not taking a lot of time to think about not
taking a lot of time to take action.
Let's hurdle less friction. Is that good enough?
It's perfect. You know, funny enough.
That was the hardest part of the book.
I've written. I don't know.
It's 60,000 words and then I wasn't convinced it.
My own definition. Actually, my initial definition
of Simplicity is a lens. Innovation but then it doesn't
really mansur to what really is simpler.
So, I went through some soul-searching face people.
I find a nice this book. So I boiled down to two
essential things. One is exactly what you said,
things have to be easy, less effort.
So, Oxford dictionary actually defines it as simple as that is
something that makes things easy to do, but then I felt that is
not enough. It doesn't really differentiate
your brand. There are a lot of things that
you can do easy, but why certain And or certain apps sticks with
you. Why certain products don't, I
think it'll eyes with the emotional part of Simplicity.
When we look at our life. When is the moment, you felt
that was simple. I often think about the coffee
on a Sunday morning. I just got up.
I just got a couple of my coffee and I drink and I feel that
woman. Nothing worries me.
Such a simple act makes me happy.
So, the way I Define Simplicity is the act of doing something
easy combined with positive. Ocean effect.
So in one sentence Simplicity is an experience that make things
easy for users and that leaves positive emotions because that
emotion makes you feel great that emotions make you want to
do more business with some products or Brands.
So usability part and the emotional part combined
together. That's what I mean by Simplicity
in the book. Wow.
I really loved it actually because the emotion part I think
we tend to neglect that when we think about Simplicity is.
All about, okay, complex process, complex, something and
we just simplify it. But we tend to miss the emotion
part, which you highlight that, it should bring a positive
emotional impact, which is pretty good.
And you also link Simplicity with Innovation, you are saying
that the Simplicity actually leads to Innovation.
I mean, I couldn't see it in the first place.
Maybe you can share with the audience, how can Simplicity
actually lead to Innovation? Yeah, so there was more like my
Discovery. It's not that I started with the
concept to make a confession when Join or CBC, and also
working as a customer experience designer.
I really didn't like the word Innovation, the word Innovation
makes me feel anxious and I feel so Hollow innovate.
What for what sake, whose sake and how?
So the word Innovation just makes people feel frantic look
for what others are doing rather than really focus on what
matters whenever people ask me questions about Innovation.
Oh, I don't believe in Innovation to me.
Innovation is doing the right thing, you know, better way.
So, So I didn't really connect what I've been doing and
Innovation. I just didn't like the
Innovation is a term but then over the work I've done.
Most Project work was about improving customer experience.
How can you make the digital experience simple when they want
to have a financial transaction with us?
How can you make this product easy to understand?
How can you make the process easier for customers?
So as you will pursuing, for the benefit of customer experience,
we found the result being just amazing.
We ended up coming up with. Completely new way of
interacting with the customer. We ended up designing our Mobile
Banking in a very different way. We ended up looking at The
Wealth Management Services. What if wealth management is not
about managing world? It's about building confidence.
So it really allows us to look at opportunities that other
competitors could not have seen. So after I don't know, seven,
eight years of repeating this process, maybe there's a
connection when we look for opportunities to a simpler.
By The Innovation kind of comes naturally.
Then I discovered there are a lot of practitioners who already
discovered a secret. So I describe some of the
examples in the book. I think one of the guys who has
been very successful investor who will be looking for simple
businesses. Then he knows this business is
were in the market. So people who are in this field
or in the Innovation or investment, they seem to know
the secret already. Maybe I discovered a Too late,
but I thought, okay. Still maybe this is never late
to share the method and learning I have and then I decided to
focus on the method rather than why it connects because there
are already a lot of books out there.
So if we can go deeper before the method, how do you actually
connect it? Because when you say you want to
achieve Simplicity, does it translate straight away
automatically into Innovation? How can you connect this?
Well, from my journey. The intent was never to in order
to innovate. Let's simplify or as my book
says otherwise, because that's what I learned to me.
It's really about the question. We need to be asking in a
company is, how can you offer better experience Simplicity
play a big role of it. Maybe the idea of simple doesn't
resonate with some companies. And also when I say Simplicity,
it's a little bit different from being minimalistic because
minimalistic and simple as that. It has a lot of overlap such as
knowing essential like reducing and all that.
But the goal is different, the minimalism might be the goal is
to reduce, but Simplicity is the goal is to create that emotional
effect of being simply lovable simply confident whichever
adjectives that can work for certain organization best.
So to me, you know, where I use the word Simplicity, my message
to a lot of companies who deals with complex issues will be, why
don't you find Innovation opportunity in designing
experiences? Has better experiences rather
than let's innovate because Technologies out there or
because our competitors are doing this personally because I
came from the financial services industry where the complexity so
dominant. And I thought Simplicity could
be one keyword. They can really allow us to have
this dialogue. But if you ask me the better
connection, I can suggest would be designing a better experience
will lead us to innovate. I love that as well.
You have a very powerful Mark, that you mentioned in the book,
which is called Simplicity Diamond.
Would you be able to share with us?
What is this diamond about? What are some of the principles
behind it? Okay.
So Simplicity Diamond, these are the five principles that I felt
kind of key in any sort of project, you may deal with,
although these were distilled into those five days based on my
experience in the financial services.
When I expose this framework to Executives in On Financial
Services, they resonate with those principles.
So I think these files are the one that can really help us to
start and also to mature the journey.
So, the five principles deals with a different aspect of
business. Practice, first principle is
called get fueled by empathy that is related to our research
practice. So, the whole idea that I want
to promote here is how a theory is a strategic asset, not just
nice to do it. Really shaping our perspectives
in looking at really interesting Innovation opportunities.
I introduce tools and Frameworks that makes so-called the design
research, much more relatable and giving confidence why this
can really complement other research, practices, that people
may do. I'm not suggesting, they have
completely replaced. We can really complement, the
current research practices are a lot of companies do, so, that's
first one. The second principles is called
dance with Complexity it refers to a lot to do with the way we
collaborate. I like the idea of day and I
don't mean the solo dancing is more like the ballroom dancing,
dance, kind of dance, because in order to solve a complex
problem, your own ability expertise is never enough
because we need to understand the different facets of the
subject matter. So, we need to work with the
legal & compliance. We need to work with products.
/. We need to work with tech
person. So How do we bring those people
together and really understand the subject matter?
And simplify it? I have this conviction.
Anything can be simplified. If you bring the right people,
if you enable them to solve the problem.
So here I talk about some of the methods how to really make that
collaboration and problem, solving process, easy and fun
and possible. Such as I think visual
facilitation is one of the methods that highly promote
because when things are visual Realized everything they come
transparent and people can challenge those why it had to be
that way as opposed to think in abstract terms the get fueled by
empathy and dance with complexity sits at the bottom of
the diamond because it kind of a fuels the rest.
And then the top three, one of the principal is our focus is
really about now that we understood what customers really
want. We were charged by a theory.
We wear the new lens to look at problems.
We know how to work with other people now where to focus What
is that one or two things that we can do really?
Well as opposed to try to do everything.
I mean, resources are finite. We cannot be good at everything.
The topic of focus is a lot to do with the value proposition,
the crafting that value. So I suggest is a diagram, the
overlap between your customers, why?
And your business is wide. So really understanding,
customers, true jobs to be done. What are they trying to do?
And what is our business trying to do?
What is Interesting over there. I call it the sweet spot.
So identifying that and articulating, it would be the
third principles fourth one, which a lot of people love is
called speak human. This is about the practice of
communications. Well, when we say design, people
typically think about layout and the color topography buttons
images, Etc, but the way we write is actually a design,
right? Especially these days things are
getting more conversational chatbot boy.
Voice command. There's no such thing as a
visual buttons. So I think the scope of design
has expanded. Of course, their language always
has been part of the design, but I think now it became much more
important. And also I often see the way we
write on touch Point, whether it's on the website or on a vole
brochure. It is often a blind spot.
People spend so much time in making it right in terms of
layout and interaction or not, but then the copywriting is just
so business Centre. So just by writing in a Human
way. We can not only bring our
personality but also it can really help people to connect
with you and the plus point of this principle that a lot of
people love about it is that it can be a quick fix.
Whereas less a dance with complexity or changing.
The research practice might be quite complicated because you
have to involve a lot of people. You have to change the status
quo. Whereas imagine you don't change
anything about your website or you change the copy the way you
write. You can immediately see The
impact. So this can become a very
powerful tool to start. If you cannot change the rest.
The fifth principle is called design level experiences.
This is kind of a bringing it all together.
So I really struggled how to position this.
But one of the key message I want to leave with here, is that
why emotions really matter because human beings are
emotional being, and, in order to make that work, we need to
take the aesthetic part of the design, very seriously.
I think the design thinking the word became So popular.
So we may have lost the significance of the look and
feel part, because now we are talking about design as a
starting problem, but actually, look and feel is as important.
So I wanted to leave this message that don't end that
functionally, good product. The end goal really is to leave
the positive emotion that is materialized through
amazing-looking film. Thanks for sharing your
Simplicity Diamond. I think each facet is pretty
interesting. So I'd like to go deeper.
For each of the facet, if you don't mind you start in the
beginning with empathy. I think this word is like jargon
this day. Everyone is saying it.
We have to be empathetic. We have to show custom empathy
and things like that. What is your definition of
empathy? And you kind of mention it in
the book that Simplicity actually starts with empathy.
How can you see that relation? First of all, definition?
I'm Cathy is quite simple. It's the ability to understand
how other people think, and feel and ability to see the world
through their eyes. So it really involves more than
your head. It involves your eyes.
It involved your heart because you need to feel what they are
feeling. So that's the definition.
And as I said, while the term empathy is used, like you
mentioned even jargon is true. We know a taste good, but there
is a strategic reason behind why we have to cultivate empathy in
an organization, especially if you were to task to come up with
Innovation and digital transformation strategy and so
forth. It's because when people, Are
given opportunity to empathize. Something changes in us to see
the problem differently. So that means the research
practice has to change. That means we should forget
about building really nice presentation deck.
What? We found out.
The better time spent will be really bringing the stakeholders
closer to the users. Of course.
We are not bunch of stalkers. We can always do that.
Then what if we capture those customers Behavior or what they
are saying, they are feeling, you know, more rich.
Heading form so that your stakeholders who will need to
solve the problem with. You can really feel the way you
feel. I know a lot of technical people
and designers. We are very passionate people.
We know changes have to be done because we are at the front end.
We are seeing the use of real testing where the key decision.
Makers, may not feel it. So to me and possess a tool to
really make them feel, so that's why I called it is a fuel for,
that's the definition and my point of view, how we can make
use of it. How How is that connected to
Simplicity? Can you tell me one?
Kind of example, when did you feel something more simple?
I like these days. The taxi ride hailing app before
we had to maybe call or when out to the side of the road just to
flag a taxi. But these days, you can always
booked a taxi, maybe even some apps allow you to do it in few
clicks and then boom, the taxi arrives.
Yes, so dad fell simple. Why do you think it is?
Why is it simpler than the whole days?
I mean there was a phone number you can call.
Taxi ten years ago. I think I think it's more
convenient and it's self-service.
I just need to key in the important details without having
to talk spend a few minutes just to talk and express my
intention. Pack.
Some apps allow you to personalize like they say if
your preference, your address, and things like that.
So it allows me to do what I intend to do within a few
seconds. Hmm.
Yeah, that's right. So I think this is a good
example because I remember when I had to call the taxi, before
the whole, grab an Uber era. I had to die.
Dial the number. I have to explain the same
information again. And again, oh I live it's got
Road here and there and then sometimes you have to wait and
then maybe you are walking down the staircase because you have
to pick up your child. So by looking at those Behavior,
how can you help people to get home, faster easier, but then
you may have this idea that what if clearly taxi is not enough,
hence. We have to leverage the private
cars, but then people may not trust.
So, how can you then build a trust?
How can we make this service is I think we can share so that
people don't feel. Okay.
I'm on a stranger's car or something like that.
So by looking at people's behavior and also talking to
people, why do you prefer doing this or what if you get on
somebody's car, how do you feel? I'm afraid?
What if I'm a kidnapper, whatever.
So those things will help you to find a way to solve their
problem and also to deliver the better experience.
So I think the way the Simplicity and empathy is
connected. It's because the source of ideas
Lies in people by understanding them.
As a whole person will help us to come up with those ideas
where to simplify and how to simplify.
But to me, that's the connection.
I can see the connection clearly now, so if you empathize with
people, you want to help solve their problems in a humanly
possible way, every human loves a simple Act of things.
So nobody likes complexity. I'm sure.
So, by empathizing helping to solve people's problems, and
that's why you will try to aim to come up with a simple
solution. As much as Possible.
And that's why I think probably you can help to achieve
Simplicity if I can summarize it.
Imagine if I was asking, users, like way before, grab an Uber
days, what will be the way to make your life easier?
Then people may say oh, yeah, then make the taxi available
every time or they may suggest a few ideas, but then they may not
be the Innovation. The idea comes from observing
their behavior, why they struggle.
So, I think one of the mistakes that a lot of companies make is
asking their use. Sirs, what do you want?
Some consumers may tell you what they want, which may be the
right problem to starve. But I think first of all it's
not customers job to tell us what will be the next big idea
and they cannot tell us. So we need to take the
ownership. It is our job.
What consumers can do for us is to share their behaviors.
Your they need and it's our job to interpret to come up with
Innovation opportunities. So that's why I think the idea
that not just Survey or asking people.
If there's one thing we could do.
What would that be? Those typical research
questions. It really hinders organization
from go deeper to look for really interesting yet.
Obvious Innovation opportunities.
So that's why I insist a lot on the research method has to be
much more experiential and we need to go deeper rather than
increasing the sample size because the goal here is to get
inspired and identify opportunities that other people
didn't see. Yeah.
There's a famous saying laughing like Was Henry's for, if you ask
people what do they want that time?
They want faster. Horse potential of a car.
All right. He noticed that what people
want, is the going a to be faster and he came up with the
idea. Yeah.
I think that's a very good analogy.
So let's move on to the next facet, which is about dancing
with complexity. There's one thing that you
explained pretty uniquely which is the term called pain sponge.
I know I can associate pain with complexity, but tell us a little
bit more. What do you mean by paying
sponge? Well, okay.
So the That's as complex. As I mentioned previously.
It has a lot of methods, how to prototype how to visualize, and
how to engage stakeholders to concrete, but then paint sponge
is more like mindset. So, when we are in a project
such as improving customer is, and whether we use the word
Simplicity or not, actually, it's quite hard to make things
simple. It's not easy.
Sometimes I felt like giving up because it's just people say no,
we still have to add this information and why it's because
of we've been always He's doing this way or Mas, wouldn't
approve it. There are so many reasons, but
then you have to kind of go as a detective.
Is it really true? Is there any other way we can do
so that work of Simplicity requires a lot of energy and
passion, and discipline. There was a real situation where
I was burying myself. Because at that time, I was
simplifying, one of our forms that is related to making
investment decisions. So it was like 12 Pages, not
only the page number, but also the content was very And I was
like staying up really late and working really hard and my boss
past five and then he said Jen. This is what is required to make
things simple. So just suck it up and he said
that sounds like yeah, I'm trying to suck it up but it's
just a pain is to so hard to swallow and then the next day he
actually came to my desk with a real like a big sponge which is
useful like scrubbing, floors Kingdom.
He has written pain, spawned with a marker and put it on my
table and I had To laugh so much.
And then when I was looking at the sponge, yeah, actually, this
is a great analogy. Kind of mindset that we need to
have. So the sponge if you think about
if you spill milk, then you would soak those messy milk with
your sponge. Then by the time, your sponge
became ugly and soaked with milk, the table become clean.
So then I realize, okay, what if our mindset is like we spawned
those spilled milk is a pain. So the more pain, we observe
their less pain, there is left for customers.
And then my thinking, when father, I was like, oh boy
engineering here. Maybe pain is like there's the
physics term Law of Conservation.
So you cannot remove or reduce pain amount of pain will be
always there. I mean, if you just replace the
mass with pain, then are you going to relieve that pain for
your customer to suck it up? Or are you gonna do it?
So there's an inverse relation between the amount of pain
you're going to circle and then the better customer experience
is going to be. So we've been having a good time
with this pain, sponge everyone in the team had own sponge on
the table to really promote the idea of Designing customer
experience is painful, but we are the sponge.
Yes, that's have to pay his fines came about.
Wow. It's pretty interesting story
and very insightful. In fact, I like it the law of
conservation, right? So either you pass the pain to
the customers or you actually, so to speak.
Suck it up and better paying for the customers.
I really like that. So, let's go to the next facet,
which is about Focus. No, these days we have this
tough problems, which is like, there are so many information
available there. So many Technologies coming to
us so many business opportunities.
So many problems to solve in the first place.
How can we actually Focus? Because we all seem to want to
accomplish many things but it is actually to the detriment of
being simple, right? Like, you just want to focus on
a few things. So how can you balance?
This? Like your company to achieve
Simplicity, but they don't feel fear of missing out in assets.
That's right. Yes.
The focus is hard. Right?
I mean, probably, this is the hardest thing we can do.
If you reflect our personal life, why do we have so many
clothes in our closet? It's just so hard to choose and
how to get rid of. So, yeah, fomo is real in
business context, and especially, when the competitors
are moving fast, non-industry players are entering to the
market. I mean, anxiety is real, isn't
it? So you mentioned, very
interesting thing, you know, yet we need to focus on the fewer
things. Maybe it doesn't have to be
fewer things. So the idea of focus, of course,
it'll be very natural eyes into fewer.
But I think it's a lot about finding the right thing to do.
One of the concept I talk about is the notion jobs to be done.
This is a term that was coined by the Harvard Business School
Professor, Clayton Christensen, which is widely own Theory.
I don't have to probably go through in death, but I find the
concept extremely useful in Really understanding.
What is the thing we need to be doing.
So, let's say, just as a simple example.
We wanted to, let's say design a new service for we call it the
emerging of lunge, those young people who increasingly gaining
wealth, but they're not yet private banking customers.
So, they don't belong to certain segments.
But then we see those emerging affluent people coming up.
What is our proposition? What are the things we need to
focus? Do we need to offer relationship
manager? Do we need to give them digital
tools? I mean, Are a lot of ideas out
there, but then when we look at their behavior, how do they
currently make money? We may realize that what they
want is not the typical banking service.
There has been a lot of ideas. What if we offer them our
special portal? Or dedicated relationship
manager, who can really bring them their wealth to the next
level? Then we found, they are very
sufficient, kind of people. So we had to understand what are
they really trying to do? And we found that since they are
young. They were very busy with picking
up their Milestones, having a baby.
I want to have enough money saved so that I can start my own
business because I really want to kick start my business.
I may be working for a corporate but launching business has been
my passion. Some people may want to focus on
your family or some people want to pursue the word trouble,
whatever, but they seem to have a certain Milestones that people
want to get done and they are very busy with it.
So, to me, that's the job. Taking off important Milestone
getting married having a kid. It grunting my business.
The what if we know those jobs work backwards instead of what
are the products and services we need to offer.
The better question is what are the things we can do for them to
take off their Milestones? That creates Focus?
Not because we are asking business to we do with whatever
you are doing. If we know what people are
trying to do the true jobs to be done.
Then we can optimize our resources to really bring our
value proposition. Then powerful and that resonated
with our consumers. So why fewer things will come as
a result, but really knowing the true jobs to be done to me.
That is the key concept that can really guide us like the North
Star. When we are so distracted by
this temptation, wanting to offer more things because the
jokes won't change. I mean, you mentioned that you
may have recognized from your child.
When you have a child, you have certain things you want to do in
life. So if we focus on those true
jobs, To me, that's real Focus. Rather than we're going to
reduce certain things down to fewer things.
Yeah, so that's why I suggest the shift from doing more to
less, but fewer but better so that fewer actually meant more
on the knowing that fewer jobs, the really important jobs, that
consumers trying to get done again, pretty insightful.
Because I think, yes, I agree that focus should not be just
lesser or fewer, but also, it has to be aligned with maybe
your values right? Your North Star like you
mentioned. Then, all the things I in
business, contexts the jobs to be done for your customers, love
that, really. So, let's move to the next
facet, which you said, many people actually find it
interesting, which is called speak human.
And I know you have this thing called Ten Commandments of
speaking human, it would probably not cover everything.
But if you can mention some of them for people to learn about,
so what are some of the Commandments that you want to
share with us. Oh, well, I mean, since Henry
read the book which are the coins that you liked most, maybe
then we can start. From there.
I like them all. So it's very hard for me to
choose. Okay, let's start with the first
one which is go for clarity, not conciseness.
Okay. So this is the one that you
resonated most with is one of the things that strike out for
me because when we try to simplify most people again think
of it like shorter sentences or use a word that can catch as
much meaning as possible, but you say go for clarity.
Not conciseness. Hmm.
Yes, you are right. When it comes to Simplify,
especially designing digital touch Point.
People think that the shorter, the better What word could be
most efficient in communicating that meaning?
But then the key here is, how can you sound more human?
So the example I share with you here, when you have the internet
banking screen to transfer funds instead of a beneficiary account
information, three word, very efficient yet.
Who would you like to transfer money?
To? It's actually a longer, but it
feels just simpler. And then instead of Of the
destination account, you can say, select your account to
Debbie from. So I think the benefits are
twofold one, is it sounds friendly.
Second thing is it makes it clear in many situations.
Sometimes people may not know what beneficiary mean I mean if
you are so used to those terms. Yes, but actually, when I came
to Singapore, first time the word beneficiary was a what does
it mean beneficiary? Whereas, so, who do you want to
send money to? We just get it so you can really
clarify. So, the goals To be Clarity
rather than conciseness. That's something I learned in
the process. There are some other examples in
the book, especially when you talk about the product features,
when you try to reduce it into a few more sentences, the meaning
is already lost. As a consumer is very hard to
understand what it means. So we need to put a little bit
of effort, maybe internally. We say that way we understand.
But do consumers, really understand what if we were
explaining the face-to-face? Would you use our 24-hour word?
Water, emergency medical system, and we wouldn't say that way.
Oh, yeah, something happened to you while you are traveling,
will make sure to evacuate you, and then we will send you home.
So, the whole idea of this attend Commandments were
inspired by, how can we speak like a human?
And I think this trend is not new, when you look at Great
website, especially those startups.
They are already taking that human tongue.
There's no such a thing as a short human less voice less
terms. These are all humanized.
So Find the key thread of writing clearly in adapting the
human tone the way we speak. So love that especially the
example that you gave beneficiary in the first place.
When I read that word. I also did not know like what
the hell is this and I could still see it in many Finance
products Insurance products and things like that.
So there are terms that are very specific to the business, to The
Domain that me as a customer. We don't necessarily understand
it, nor we probably want to understand it.
It deeper. And that's why you always have
these third parties, right? Like middle layer people like
the Financial Consultant and things like that.
The job is to explain to us what it means rather than for us to
just read and understand what it means.
So I like that speak human is actually very essential in the
products and services that you offer.
So let's move on to the next one which is about lovable
experience. So the first thing that stood
out for me is that you compare this thing.
These day people know about minimum viable product, which is
sometimes called MVP and what you coin as Mm.
Mm, lovable product. So can you explain to us?
What do you mean by minimum level product?
And how do you compare that with MVP MVP is a great concept,
isn't coming from the whole lean and agile movement, but then I
noticed that in the organization that this word was battery of
used to justify, it is okay to launch product.
That may not work very well, because we are very interested
in learning fast and failing fast, which I agree that it's
good to launch something. And they will learn from it yet.
Somehow the true. Meaning of MVP was kind of
misunderstood the true meaning of a minimum viable product was
the minimal version that will allow us to maximize the
learning about the customer. So that is the original
definition by Eric Ries who came up with this concept.
The maximize learning is completely ignored and then
people were just launched some things.
Just for the sake of launching, it saying that we're going to
improve it in Phase 2. You know, face to never come
face to become like a bucket list or like a parking lot.
Not that MVPs wrong. I mean, I really think that by
releasing something. If you can maximize your
learning, if you use it to your true intent, this is a great
concept. This is just that because of the
word minimal, viable product. We are abusing this word by
justifying not great product, being able to launch in the
marketplace. So to change their mindset
internally in, ocbc Bank are introduced the term meaning Only
love of the product just by changing viable too loveable.
It makes people wonder how what is The Lovable?
Well lovable means that users will love it.
Maybe there's a one thing, small thing, whatever it is.
There's a one reason why people will be emotionally engaged with
us. So, okay.
This product is not perfect. We haven't launched the Full
Features yet. If there anything that can make
people love our products or Services, you can really shape
people's mindset. So I think that's very powerful.
Through way of actually being more true to the minimum.
Viable product is the original concept.
And also you relate lovable, a lot with Aesthetics, right?
The beauty part of, either the visuals or the experience.
Can you share with us? What is the importance of
Aesthetics these days? I know that as a human, we love
to see beautiful stops, but when you see how it gets implemented
in services or products, right? How do you actually use this as
tactics inside your products? Yeah.
So first of all, you notice that The terminology that I use like
a result overall Aesthetics and beautiful experience.
I mean some people say yeah because you are a girl.
These are the terms that girls use some businesses.
May not relate lovable. Our business has nothing to do
with loving something but I was mindful of that and I
deliberately chose those words because it can stretch our
thinking as opposed to emotionally satisfying, you
know, words like that or Pleasant.
These are very safe words yet. Our app has to be beautiful.
I thought was our app has to be pleasant to look.
It's just has a different kind of mental state, isn't it?
So that's where the term is comes in.
And then to your question how the sense of Aesthetics related
to simplicity's because again human beings are emotional.
Being I mean as you said is in our nature, we love beautiful
things and it has very strong connection to idea of
Simplicity, when things are looking great.
You are drawn to it. It simplifies people's decision.
Oh, I just like it. There was one of the concepts
that Frank by ocbc. The Millennials banking concept
that we launched wanted to create.
If you go with rational approach or we offer better product.
We offer better interest rate or our people are great.
You go through things like Hardware Zone, compare the
product which bank offers the best interest rate.
The decision-making process become very complicated.
Whereas if people see card design that all oh, yeah that
reminds me of my last trip in Paris.
Or dead reminds me of kind of person.
I am, I want to flesh that out whenever I open my wallet
decision making process become simpler.
So that intuitive connection with your customers can be
realized through Aesthetics. So we cannot leave it to just
branding guidelines. Of course, we need to follow the
branding guidelines but inconsistent is not enough.
This is really about what are the things that we can do to
really create that immediate attraction and then that can
create the immediate decision. Making and how your loyalty.
So that's why it is tightly related to the concept of
Simplicity. Yeah, again, I didn't see it.
That way. When you are example, present
something that is more aesthetically pleasing.
It simplifies your decision-making listening to
what you said. I think it makes sense.
I think that's where the importance of beautifying your
products and services. It's really, really important
when you work with customers and users.
So again, thanks for sharing all these Simplicity Diamond
framework and the essence of the principles again for Who wants
to start embarking on this journey?
How can they start? Especially when they work in
traditional companies? Or is there any difference if
they work in a startups like company that has no Legacy?
So to speak. Well, I mean, the book clearly
has written based on my experience in Legacy company.
So I must say, I don't have enough experience to talk on
behalf of startup companies. But again the idea of Simplicity
whether you are designing something for your customers as
a start-up or as a legacy company.
Same Isn't it since my idea is really to focus on your
customers. So I think they can also benefit
from this concept, where to start.
I typically suggest ideally, we look at how do we do, research?
How do we work with our team and stakeholders?
How do we create value proposition?
And how do we, then create the rubber experience?
Ideally, it has to be done in sequence, but it doesn't have to
be we can really start from whichever principles that speak
to us most. So, Like I've seen many
companies Who start from speak human before they go to change
the research or whatnot. They just look at one of the
could be website. It could be product brochure.
They just start and then measure the impact, then tell the story.
Then you win the customers, your stakeholders support.
For instance, of one of the banks in Korea.
I had workshop with recently. There's all the five things
great, but we just don't have time to months later.
We have this product launch and next week.
We have to get our CEOs by in and then they ended up just
applies. Speak human Concept in one of
the new product brochure. They redesign everything only
the browser level and then CEO gave them a standing ovation.
He said, oh really love it. I immediately get it and then
they got the support and they were able to launch on other
aspects of their custom experience designed.
So yes, I think starting somewhere and measuring impact
will be the best way to start. So how about if one wants to
implement Simplicity in their life.
Is that something that you can also apply this?
Simplicity diamond ore. That is a very difficult
question because I always say I promote simplicity at work for
simplifying. My whole life is very difficult.
That allow me to have empathy for my partners who are
typically the owner of a product owner of the channel.
My life is my own. So I cannot be consultant to my
own life. When you come to the only life.
I found, it's difficult. It's very, very difficult.
Especially the focus area. What is my true jobs, how can I
then price? Sighs my time.
And how can I then design my daily routine in a way that I
can really focus on what truly matters.
That makes me not only easy to do but also makes me happy.
So that'll be my next research project or together.
But I think, based on the book concept.
I really try to refrain every day whenever the situation comes
in, whenever things go out of the way that I hope that didn't
happen. I try to refrain from the
situation and then learn from me.
Another thing I try to adapt to simplify my life with some sort
of idea of prototyping. So, what if I really wanted to
let's say, set up my own business.
What if I take one month, leave and live their life, what?
Should my daily routine be like, but that I kind of gain clarity
through the act of prototyping. So, these are the things I do
deliberately consciously, but to be honest with you, I mean, this
is a topic that I cannot advise you on.
That's all right. There are things that we can
learn, like, prototyping, spend some Time to actually do the
things that you want and see whether you like it or whether
there's any success coming out of it.
So I'm still intrigued like you mentioned a couple of times in
our conversation so far. There are people who think that
a gel lean design thinking and all this Simplicity.
They might be at odds with each other.
So what will be a message on this topic?
How do you think all these methodologies can actually work
together side by side in order to achieve a big outcome?
Yeah, so I had to go through Do training myself because I do
understand what it means and then I've been running a lot of
others French as well. To be honest with you.
I think I'll just compare between the design thinking or
job. There's a huge overlap in terms
of empowering people self-organizing could put
iterating and learn and putting customer at the center of the
process. We constantly look at what
works, what doesn't, how to use those things.
I mean, mainly because there are like agile, scrum Masters and
product owner and certain robust design thinking is like, So
break, right. There's no certification.
I mean, I'm running certification program with semi
Academy, but to be honest, there's no one governing body.
There's no different roles, Etc. So it's quite hard.
So I think this is something I really admire people who found
it from that org, really standardized.
That's maybe it's something that design Community has to learn.
How do we tend to standardize the process so that people can
adapt from it. So that's one for me.
The best formula found out is the idea of the design thinking
can be very powerful. Before we get to the product
backlog, to identify all the things we want to do, because
once we are in the agile mode, it may not give us enough mental
space to really go deeper time. Box is a great concept, not the
time box is wrong. But one of the thing I often see
is once we have the product backlog, then we are very busy
with that, iterating, and testing and building and all.
So we may lose the big pictures. So when I design the design
Sprint framework, I suggested, why don't we Really use design
thinking not that I want to distinguish all those different
terms when we don't know what problem we are starving.
Or in other words at the very beginning of the process.
It can be time box to. So you can be one week or two
weeks. This is really time for
Discovery so that everyone in the team has the opportunity to
empathize. With the end users.
They already have some high-level picture together in
this stage. It's very important to involve
people from technology people from And complex.
They shouldn't be involved. Only, at the later stage.
Everybody will come together in the beginning to really explore.
What kind of problems we are starving.
Because today's environment is changing so fast the way to win,
is to identify the right problem to solve, rather than we are
solving the problem. So, I think I'll dial is great
in solving design, thinking can be great in identifying, the
problem to solve. So, hence in my mentor more, I
tend to put some sort of exploratory time using assign
thinking, but then the moment we feel we identified Oh, those
customer jobs. Then I think I can come in to
reiterate what we learned in the initial part of the project.
So that's how I would combine this.
Thanks for sharing your connection with this Asia and
lean. I'm sure many people who are in
the industry these days. There are so many methodologies
out there. People also like sometimes
confused. Okay.
Should I follow in jail? Should I follow lean should?
I follow design thinking experience design and so many
others, which I probably don't know.
So thanks for sharing your thoughts on this.
At least we have to end the conversation.
It's been a pleasure Pleasant conversation.
I learned a lot. So before we end, I normally ask
this question, about three technical leadership is them so
soon. Would you be able to share your
wisdom for us? Okay.
So you said three things, right? Can I say for things instead?
Go ahead? Okay.
And work with so many. Brilliant technology people.
Also design is actually very technical practice, isn't it?
So one thing I would like to leave them with Would be the
self-awareness. What am I really good at?
What am I struggling? But at the same time, instead of
really focusing on how can I improve my weakness?
Working on the strength? I think this is a great way of
improving our leadership and scope of influence.
Second thing will be the idea that our energy is finite
designers. And tech people are very
passionate group of people. We care about what kind of
product we are making whether people will love our product.
Want to turn into the states has called, These are really group
of passionate people. Yet.
We need to take care of ourselves.
So, we need to pick a right better to fight.
And best way of maintaining our energy and passion will be
getting our daily routine. In order.
In terms of giving ourselves could sleep and time to rest and
all this. So all those daily practice will
lead us to Greatness the third one, which I believe will be
becoming master has something going deep rather than going
Broad, as I said, for instance, if you are practice design,
thinking the proficiency of the tool, will breathe, the agility,
rather than, oh, I'm using a jar and I'm using this.
I think I'm using lean really knowing the method at a greater
depth and having the experience from inception of the project to
the implementation. Once you've gone through that
process many, many times. I think you will gain your own
Enlightenment. So that Master is something that
we need in today's world. First one is, we didn't To tell
stories that I think leadership is all about inspiring others.
So, when tech people have great ideas, instead of trying to
appeal, your ideas, to your audience, through logic or Trend
or data. On top of that.
I think we should be able to weave our Rider into stories,
especially having the end user as the main character.
How will we change their lives? And I think that will really
help us to increase our leadership.
Thanks also for sharing this wisdom.
I love the way that you Emphasize the fourth wisdom,
which is about telling stories. So if the way this podcast
contains a lot of stories from you where we can all learn as
well and how to achieve Simplicity in our work and daily
life. So, thanks again, Gene for
people who would like to connect with you.
Or maybe ask further about this topic.
Where can they find you online? So I have a website called
design for company.com, which has been my personal blogging
space since I don't know, 2012. When I started my see.
Us attorney. So you'll find my really old
blocks there, but now it has become my company website.
So it has a tools and stared a blog is a big component of it,
and there are ways to say hi and engage me for any design
conversations. Thanks.
Again, Jin. I hope we can see more and more
simplified business process and things like that in the world,
hence. It improves our lives and our
emotional being. It was my pleasure and thanks
for asking me all those tough questions, which made me to read
my book one more time. I really enjoyed all the
questions and the conversation with you.
Thank you. Thank you for listening to this
episode and for staying right till the end.
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