1 00:00:00,040 --> 00:00:03,840 Leading change is high stakes. Leadership in general is high 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,640 stakes. We don't spend a great deal of 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:13,760 time actually focusing on conversation and creating space 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:18,920 to engage in real conversation. And by that I mean we are 5 00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:22,400 attending to getting below the surface level topic. 6 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,450 Hey everyone. My name is Henry Surya Virawan 7 00:00:32,170 --> 00:00:35,570 and you're listening to the Technical Journal Podcast, the 8 00:00:35,570 --> 00:00:38,250 show where I'll be bringing you the greatest technical leaders, 9 00:00:38,530 --> 00:00:42,130 practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to 10 00:00:42,130 --> 00:00:46,370 discuss about their journey, ideas and practices that we all 11 00:00:46,370 --> 00:00:49,890 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 12 00:00:50,370 --> 00:00:52,570 and to make an impact in your personal work. 13 00:00:53,210 --> 00:01:01,100 So let's dive into our journal. Hello everyone. 14 00:01:01,300 --> 00:01:04,300 Welcome to the Techni Journal Podcast, the podcast where you 15 00:01:04,300 --> 00:01:06,900 can learn about technical leadership and excellence from 16 00:01:06,900 --> 00:01:09,380 my conversations with great thought leaders in the tech 17 00:01:09,380 --> 00:01:11,500 industry. If this is your first time 18 00:01:11,500 --> 00:01:14,180 listening, don't forget to subscribe on your favorite 19 00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:16,940 podcast app to get notified for future episodes. 20 00:01:17,340 --> 00:01:20,380 Also, subscribe to Techni Journal contents on LinkedIn, 21 00:01:20,660 --> 00:01:23,220 Twitter, Instagram, YouTube, and TikTok. 22 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,620 And if you have been enjoying this podcast and its contents, 23 00:01:26,860 --> 00:01:30,340 support my work by either buying me a coffee at techlygenal dot 24 00:01:30,340 --> 00:01:33,980 def slash tip or becoming a patron at techlygenal dot def 25 00:01:33,980 --> 00:01:37,620 slash patron. My guest for today's episode is 26 00:01:37,620 --> 00:01:41,060 Marcia Acker. Marcia is the author of Build 27 00:01:41,060 --> 00:01:44,580 Your Model for Leading Change and the host of Defining Moments 28 00:01:44,580 --> 00:01:48,540 of Leadership podcasts. In this episode, we discussed 29 00:01:48,540 --> 00:01:51,900 building our own model for leadership and leading change. 30 00:01:52,580 --> 00:01:56,260 Marcia first started by sharing the concept of a model and some 31 00:01:56,260 --> 00:01:59,700 of the common challenges for organizations in making changes. 32 00:02:00,300 --> 00:02:04,260 Then we discussed David Cantor's theories on structural dynamics 33 00:02:04,300 --> 00:02:07,980 and functional awareness for understanding behavioral model, 34 00:02:08,380 --> 00:02:11,580 which include the concepts of leadership, range, and 35 00:02:11,580 --> 00:02:15,820 communicative competence. Marcia outlined what makes 36 00:02:15,820 --> 00:02:19,660 communication so, so challenging and what we can do to achieve a 37 00:02:19,660 --> 00:02:21,860 more effective communication with each other. 38 00:02:22,490 --> 00:02:25,570 Towards the end, she shared the three different models that 39 00:02:25,570 --> 00:02:28,770 leaders need to think about, which are Model for Leadership, 40 00:02:29,370 --> 00:02:32,730 Model for a Living, and Model for Leading Change. 41 00:02:33,890 --> 00:02:36,930 I hope you enjoy listening to this episode and learn insights 42 00:02:36,930 --> 00:02:40,570 on how to understand and adjust your Leadership model that 43 00:02:40,570 --> 00:02:43,810 eventually will allow you to lead successful change in your 44 00:02:43,810 --> 00:02:46,250 organization. And if you enjoy listening to 45 00:02:46,250 --> 00:02:49,210 this episode, please share with your colleagues, your friends, 46 00:02:49,210 --> 00:02:51,880 and communities. And leave a 5 star rating and 47 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,440 review on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 48 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,440 Your small help will help me a lot in getting a lot more people 49 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:00,680 to discover and listen to this podcast. 50 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:02,600 And I really, really appreciate it. 51 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:05,680 Let's now go to my conversation with Marsha. 52 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:08,840 Hey, a quick message for those of you who are listening to this 53 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,160 episode on Spotify, I have a small favor to ask. 54 00:03:12,560 --> 00:03:15,920 Spotify now allows mobile users to rate podcasts. 55 00:03:16,380 --> 00:03:19,580 I would really appreciate it if you can take a quick pause to go 56 00:03:19,580 --> 00:03:22,380 to the Technical Journal podcast page and leave your favorite 57 00:03:22,380 --> 00:03:24,540 show your best rating on Spotify. 58 00:03:25,060 --> 00:03:27,660 It will help me a lot to get this podcast to reach more 59 00:03:27,660 --> 00:03:30,020 people on the platform. Thanks a lot. 60 00:03:32,780 --> 00:03:34,980 Hello guys, welcome back to another new episode of the 61 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:37,900 Technical Journal Podcast Today I have Marcia Acker here. 62 00:03:38,300 --> 00:03:42,300 So she's gonna be discussing about making change, leading 63 00:03:42,300 --> 00:03:45,290 change for leaders. So I'm so excited to have you in 64 00:03:45,290 --> 00:03:48,210 the show, Marcia, looking forward for giving advice for 65 00:03:48,210 --> 00:03:50,930 people for leading some changes in their organizations. 66 00:03:51,370 --> 00:03:53,730 Thanks Henry. I'm excited to be here today. 67 00:03:54,210 --> 00:03:57,410 Marcia, I always love to ask my guests to first share about 68 00:03:57,450 --> 00:03:59,810 yourself, right? Maybe you can share some 69 00:03:59,810 --> 00:04:02,650 highlights or any turning points in your career so that we all 70 00:04:02,650 --> 00:04:07,170 can learn from your experience. Yeah, I would describe my career 71 00:04:07,170 --> 00:04:09,490 journey as like part one and Part 2. 72 00:04:09,690 --> 00:04:13,480 So I got my start. So I have two degrees in 73 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,960 software engineering. And so the first part of my 74 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:20,959 professional career was really on the ground with developers 75 00:04:21,079 --> 00:04:25,280 and end users really trying to bridge the communication gap 76 00:04:25,280 --> 00:04:28,320 between, you know, both of those groups of folks. 77 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:31,960 And so I have in my training, I think I had a really strong 78 00:04:32,160 --> 00:04:35,720 training and process. I had a lot of orientation to 79 00:04:36,130 --> 00:04:39,890 creating process, automating process, you know, a belief that 80 00:04:39,890 --> 00:04:43,850 efficiency would happen if we could just define the process 81 00:04:43,890 --> 00:04:47,170 and then improve the process. So I think I would describe sort 82 00:04:47,170 --> 00:04:50,290 of the first half of my career as really passionate about 83 00:04:50,290 --> 00:04:54,490 looking at ways to improve how we automate and communicate with 84 00:04:54,490 --> 00:04:57,490 one another. But it was early in that sort of 85 00:04:57,610 --> 00:05:01,810 first part of my career that I also was introduced to 86 00:05:01,930 --> 00:05:06,160 facilitation skills. So I was working across many 87 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:08,640 groups. I would say they were often 88 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:14,200 politically divided groups of end users and trying to get them 89 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,800 to align on requirements or come to some alignment or agreement 90 00:05:18,800 --> 00:05:20,800 on what they wanted to put into software. 91 00:05:21,320 --> 00:05:25,880 And I stumbled upon facilitation skills and that really started 92 00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:28,320 to shift my. I think that was one of my 93 00:05:28,320 --> 00:05:33,240 turning points where I really started to see the value of 94 00:05:33,730 --> 00:05:37,450 crafting spaces that people could talk with one another and 95 00:05:37,450 --> 00:05:40,210 communicate with one another. And so I have a lot of passion 96 00:05:40,210 --> 00:05:42,850 around facilitation. I wrote a book about it, but 97 00:05:43,090 --> 00:05:47,890 that really set a part of my trajectory in the late 90s. 98 00:05:47,890 --> 00:05:52,410 So around 9899, I was in a startup organization and we 99 00:05:52,890 --> 00:05:55,290 began working with agile principals. 100 00:05:55,690 --> 00:05:59,010 That was before we were calling it agile in the tech space, but 101 00:05:59,050 --> 00:06:04,690 really started to be get and I saw things like pair programming 102 00:06:04,690 --> 00:06:09,650 and user stories as a way I saw them as facilitation processes. 103 00:06:09,650 --> 00:06:13,370 Like there were ways that we could start to change the focus 104 00:06:13,410 --> 00:06:15,890 and not just be about looking at the process, but we could 105 00:06:15,890 --> 00:06:17,810 actually begin to shift communication. 106 00:06:17,810 --> 00:06:22,730 So that really set my trajectory to focus a bit more on 107 00:06:22,770 --> 00:06:28,400 facilitation and left the startup and I went on to work in 108 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:33,320 a consulting firm and I had begun to shift over to the 109 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,960 process of change like really stepping back a bit from my 110 00:06:36,960 --> 00:06:40,320 technical focus and really looking at how do we help 111 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:43,400 organizations change. And I ended up working with a 112 00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:46,800 large organization on a huge change. 113 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,000 We were facilitating mostly the leadership team and it was 114 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,920 happening over the course of about a year and a half. 115 00:06:52,920 --> 00:06:56,540 It was a very processed focused change. 116 00:06:56,620 --> 00:06:58,980 I would say if I were to describe it to you today, I 117 00:06:58,980 --> 00:07:03,300 would say my model for change at that time was very process 118 00:07:03,300 --> 00:07:05,380 focused. If you define the process as it 119 00:07:05,380 --> 00:07:10,300 is today, if you look to create what you want as a new process, 120 00:07:10,580 --> 00:07:12,340 then people will get on board, right? 121 00:07:12,340 --> 00:07:16,020 So I think that was a little bit of the the model for change at 122 00:07:16,020 --> 00:07:19,260 that moment. And I noticed while I think the 123 00:07:19,260 --> 00:07:22,980 change was relatively successful, they were able to 124 00:07:22,980 --> 00:07:25,720 roll it out. One of what I noticed was 125 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,840 happening in the leadership team as they were trying to make 126 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:35,560 decisions, they reached a point where they just got stuck in the 127 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,720 conversation of what was going to change. 128 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:42,200 Primarily what I could tell you today is primarily because they 129 00:07:42,200 --> 00:07:45,880 were so focused on process and at a point in that decision 130 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,280 making for the leadership team, it wasn't about the process 131 00:07:49,280 --> 00:07:51,400 anymore. So many things were going to 132 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,230 change that they were going to make decisions, never going to 133 00:07:54,230 --> 00:07:57,350 impact them personally, where their homes were located, where 134 00:07:57,350 --> 00:08:00,230 their children were going to school, how connected they were 135 00:08:00,230 --> 00:08:02,590 to extended family. That was happening at the 136 00:08:02,590 --> 00:08:06,590 leadership level and it was happening for the people that 137 00:08:06,590 --> 00:08:09,750 they were leading. And so all of a sudden, you 138 00:08:09,750 --> 00:08:13,350 know, there was a really, there was a real human element to a 139 00:08:13,350 --> 00:08:17,270 decision that needed to be made. But the process that we were 140 00:08:17,270 --> 00:08:21,120 using to help them make decisions didn't really include 141 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:23,640 the human element. It was very process focused. 142 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:26,280 And so that was a moment in time. 143 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,440 I remember it very vividly. We were at a retreat and I was 144 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,960 like, we're just stuck. Like I I'm all out of 145 00:08:31,960 --> 00:08:36,400 facilitation tricks and tools and techniques and I didn't 146 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,120 really know what to do. And so we ended up sort of 147 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,480 naming that to the group and asking them how they wanted to 148 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,080 work with it. But it was that moment that I 149 00:08:44,080 --> 00:08:48,600 really can locate as a trajectory change for me because 150 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,440 my model at that moment was really missing the human 151 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,120 element. And the fact that we weren't 152 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,160 creating a space for people to talk about the impact of the 153 00:08:57,160 --> 00:09:01,200 change, what they needed to consider or take into account 154 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,520 really then sort of pushed that topic off. 155 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:09,220 What I would say is it pushed it offline and it made it sort of 156 00:09:09,260 --> 00:09:12,700 undiscussable and then it sort of held that leadership team in 157 00:09:12,700 --> 00:09:14,460 a spin cycle for quite some time. 158 00:09:14,460 --> 00:09:18,180 It was really difficult. So today in part two of my 159 00:09:18,180 --> 00:09:23,420 career, I am an executive coach and a leadership team coach and 160 00:09:23,500 --> 00:09:28,380 I really focus on the skills of conversation and communication. 161 00:09:28,380 --> 00:09:33,180 So why is it important to even make communication something 162 00:09:33,180 --> 00:09:35,500 that we focus on? So I would, I would say today I 163 00:09:35,500 --> 00:09:40,030 have a model around leading change that really emphasizes 164 00:09:40,350 --> 00:09:43,710 the core crux of our conversations and how really 165 00:09:44,030 --> 00:09:47,310 everything that we want to accomplish kind of sit on the, 166 00:09:47,630 --> 00:09:51,630 it's sort of like train tracks, like conversation is what 167 00:09:51,630 --> 00:09:54,590 propels us forward or holds us back and the way we're engaging 168 00:09:54,590 --> 00:09:56,790 with one another. So that would be sort of the 169 00:09:56,790 --> 00:09:59,030 highlights I think, of my career journey. 170 00:09:59,930 --> 00:10:01,330 Thank you for sharing your story. 171 00:10:01,330 --> 00:10:02,730 I think it's really interesting, right? 172 00:10:02,730 --> 00:10:05,090 Started from the software engineering background and then 173 00:10:05,090 --> 00:10:09,330 went into facilitation by chance and also now working on making 174 00:10:09,330 --> 00:10:11,530 changes. And you emphasize a lot about 175 00:10:11,530 --> 00:10:13,890 communication and building conversations, right? 176 00:10:14,290 --> 00:10:17,490 And I think you also have a podcast called Defining Moments 177 00:10:17,490 --> 00:10:20,290 of Leadership. So one story that you mentioned 178 00:10:20,290 --> 00:10:23,570 just now seems like 1 defining moment of leadership where you 179 00:10:23,570 --> 00:10:25,610 know it missed the human elements. 180 00:10:25,980 --> 00:10:27,820 So maybe if you can share a little bit more. 181 00:10:27,980 --> 00:10:29,980 Why did you start with this podcast? 182 00:10:29,980 --> 00:10:32,820 What kind of guest that you invited the show to share with 183 00:10:32,820 --> 00:10:34,980 the audience? So maybe a little bit about your 184 00:10:35,020 --> 00:10:36,860 podcast. Yeah, thank you. 185 00:10:37,140 --> 00:10:41,620 The podcast emerged and I don't. I never set out to do a podcast 186 00:10:42,020 --> 00:10:45,140 that wasn't that was not on my bucket list of things to do. 187 00:10:45,620 --> 00:10:49,620 But I realized, so I do individual leadership coaching 188 00:10:49,620 --> 00:10:51,860 and then I also work with leadership teams. 189 00:10:51,860 --> 00:10:56,350 But it was during the pandemic and I started to realize there 190 00:10:56,350 --> 00:11:00,310 was this theme or thread across leaders that I was working with 191 00:11:00,910 --> 00:11:04,390 a couple of things. One is I would say it's this 192 00:11:04,390 --> 00:11:07,150 moment where we go, all right, I still have more. 193 00:11:07,470 --> 00:11:09,870 I thought I was done with that, but I'm realizing I still have 194 00:11:09,870 --> 00:11:11,950 more work to do to grow my leadership. 195 00:11:12,270 --> 00:11:15,550 So the moment of thinking, like thinking we're done and then 196 00:11:15,550 --> 00:11:19,150 something happens and we realized, you know, we've got 197 00:11:19,270 --> 00:11:22,390 more work to do. I think the other part was 198 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:26,880 there's something really beautiful in my opinion about 199 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,400 honestly, the honor of being in a one-on-one coaching engagement 200 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:35,120 with a leader. And I would notice they'd show 201 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:40,200 up in those conversations as real, authentic, you know, 202 00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:43,560 really genuinely caring, wanted to, you know, had good 203 00:11:43,560 --> 00:11:46,920 intentions. And then often times not 204 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:51,040 everyone, but some of them go out to their teams and then they 205 00:11:51,040 --> 00:11:55,680 get feedback in three 60s or some other mechanism that says 206 00:11:55,680 --> 00:11:58,520 they're controlling. And so I just kept thinking, why 207 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:03,560 can't that person that I'm talking to show up also at work? 208 00:12:04,080 --> 00:12:08,680 And that was the moment because I'm like, well, they're there, 209 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:13,970 but there's something about the system or the team, maybe their 210 00:12:13,970 --> 00:12:17,130 own story that they're telling themselves that has them show up 211 00:12:17,130 --> 00:12:20,530 differently with me than they do when they're leading. 212 00:12:20,930 --> 00:12:24,770 And so I really want it to start to normalize that. 213 00:12:24,930 --> 00:12:27,770 Leadership is ongoing. The development of leadership is 214 00:12:27,770 --> 00:12:29,610 ongoing. Should you choose to accept it? 215 00:12:29,610 --> 00:12:34,130 It's ongoing. And I wanted to normalize the 216 00:12:34,130 --> 00:12:39,650 real sort of dips in our life. You know those moments where it 217 00:12:39,650 --> 00:12:43,500 feels like it gets really low or it's challenging? 218 00:12:43,540 --> 00:12:47,700 Because I think that those are the moments where we actually on 219 00:12:47,700 --> 00:12:51,820 board, new insights, new learning and something shifts or 220 00:12:51,820 --> 00:12:56,100 changes for us. And coming out of those dips are 221 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:58,300 new thinking, new ways of leading. 222 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:01,380 We show up slightly differently. And so I just wanted to 223 00:13:01,380 --> 00:13:05,900 normalize the messy mucky middle or the dip that happens. 224 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:11,130 And so on the podcast, I'm really clear about invite real 225 00:13:11,130 --> 00:13:14,330 leaders who are on the front lines leading. 226 00:13:14,770 --> 00:13:18,050 They're dealing with all the challenges that come with 227 00:13:18,090 --> 00:13:19,650 leadership. I think leadership in and of 228 00:13:19,650 --> 00:13:22,090 itself as a highstakes activity these days. 229 00:13:22,610 --> 00:13:27,210 And the ask is when they come on that they share one of those 230 00:13:27,210 --> 00:13:29,770 defining moments and what it was like for them, what it was like 231 00:13:29,770 --> 00:13:33,730 to be in it, what they were thinking at the moment, but also 232 00:13:34,010 --> 00:13:36,570 what's the learning or the lesson that they took away. 233 00:13:36,570 --> 00:13:40,730 So how did that, in a sense, help them define what their 234 00:13:40,730 --> 00:13:44,090 model for leadership look like? So that's a little bit of how 235 00:13:44,090 --> 00:13:48,890 the podcast came to be. And yeah, and and what I look 236 00:13:48,970 --> 00:13:52,090 for on the podcast. Yeah, sounds like a lot of 237 00:13:52,170 --> 00:13:54,970 things we can learn, right, defining moments of leadership. 238 00:13:55,010 --> 00:13:57,570 So I think when you become a leader, or even if you're not in 239 00:13:57,570 --> 00:14:00,250 the leadership position, sometimes we are forced into a 240 00:14:00,250 --> 00:14:03,770 certain moments in our career where you need to step up and 241 00:14:03,930 --> 00:14:06,370 make decision, right? It's too big from the front. 242 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,960 So hopefully people can also learn from your podcast about 243 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:12,680 some leadership moments. So for today we are going to 244 00:14:12,680 --> 00:14:16,480 talk a topic about leading change from your latest book, 245 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:18,920 Built Your model for Leading Change. 246 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:21,960 So the first thing is about the title itself. 247 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,440 So maybe my first question, what do you mean by building a model 248 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:28,400 for leading change? What do you define as a model 249 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:31,900 here? So a lot of the work, the 250 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:35,340 research actually comes from a gentleman by the name of David 251 00:14:35,340 --> 00:14:38,180 Cantor. He was located in Boston at 252 00:14:38,180 --> 00:14:42,140 Harvard and in the early 70s actually started to do quite a 253 00:14:42,140 --> 00:14:45,180 lot of research around communication. 254 00:14:45,180 --> 00:14:49,580 And through that research he developed a theory called 255 00:14:49,580 --> 00:14:51,820 Structural dynamics and it's theory of Facetoface 256 00:14:51,820 --> 00:14:55,660 communication. Part of his theory is that 257 00:14:56,150 --> 00:15:01,510 everyone of us are essentially building models, and models are 258 00:15:01,510 --> 00:15:05,030 the way that we look at the world, make sense of the world, 259 00:15:05,070 --> 00:15:06,830 and then take action in the world. 260 00:15:07,270 --> 00:15:11,270 When I encountered David's work a number of years ago, I was 261 00:15:11,270 --> 00:15:15,870 really struck by the idea. So remember my background. 262 00:15:16,190 --> 00:15:18,630 I'm deep in process. Like I have a real love for 263 00:15:18,630 --> 00:15:20,750 process. And there is, you know, I had 264 00:15:20,750 --> 00:15:24,970 been at that time introduced to a lot of models, models for 265 00:15:24,970 --> 00:15:29,410 building software, models for trust, building models for how 266 00:15:29,410 --> 00:15:32,970 we communicate. And at that time also models for 267 00:15:33,250 --> 00:15:36,530 how to be in a a coach, a leadership coach, a systems 268 00:15:36,530 --> 00:15:40,850 coach. So I was really fascinated by 269 00:15:40,890 --> 00:15:45,170 this idea that, you know, it was sort of like, of course we're 270 00:15:45,170 --> 00:15:47,570 building our own models, but I'd really never looked at it 271 00:15:47,610 --> 00:15:51,780 through that lens. And I had bet a colleague at the 272 00:15:51,780 --> 00:15:55,860 time and I remember saying to her, you know, you said this 273 00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:58,820 about team coaching. And I've really heard this. 274 00:15:58,820 --> 00:16:02,380 And so I was like, you know, there's what you're saying and 275 00:16:02,380 --> 00:16:03,740 there's what someone else is saying. 276 00:16:04,020 --> 00:16:06,300 And I want to know which one of those is right. 277 00:16:06,580 --> 00:16:09,180 And she looked at me and she said, well, it's just a 278 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:12,380 different model. And she's like neither or right 279 00:16:12,380 --> 00:16:15,860 or wrong, it's just a different model and it's based on 280 00:16:15,860 --> 00:16:20,540 different thinking. And I thought, huh, that's 281 00:16:20,660 --> 00:16:24,340 really fascinating. So what I'd say, you know about 282 00:16:24,380 --> 00:16:28,860 the new book, building a model. So for me, it really is about 283 00:16:29,340 --> 00:16:32,780 taking a stand. I'm wanting all of us to begin 284 00:16:32,780 --> 00:16:36,740 to think about how do we lead change, how do we lead what's in 285 00:16:36,740 --> 00:16:38,460 our model. You've heard me even today 286 00:16:38,460 --> 00:16:42,260 describe years ago, you know, having more of what I would have 287 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:47,520 called a process lead model for change, whereas I have a much 288 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,840 more behavioral and communication model for change 289 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:53,800 now. And that's not to say that 290 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:58,400 either or right or wrong, but what's really happened for me 291 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,840 over the years, even as I described my career trajectory 292 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:06,800 for you, has been an ongoing process of getting really clear 293 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:11,119 for myself about what's in my model, how I go about doing it, 294 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,359 why I go about doing it. And if you go on to social 295 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:18,119 media, I think social media is a great place to see what I would 296 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:21,920 call model difference or even model clash for that matter. 297 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,680 Pick anybody on social media who asserts something, you're yeah, 298 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,360 you're laughing, but it's like they assert something and then 299 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,320 here come all the comments. Well, I see it differently or I 300 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,720 disagree. And so actually in those 301 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:39,080 conversations, what I would say is if we zoom out of them, 302 00:17:39,360 --> 00:17:44,160 there's likely two or more people in that stream of of 303 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:48,120 conversation that actually have different models for how 304 00:17:48,120 --> 00:17:51,560 something happens. And I think the value and the 305 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,480 benefit of being really clear about having a model and really 306 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:59,520 knowing what's in your model is that, you know, Henry, if you 307 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:03,800 and I engaged in a conversation, we could talk about, you know, 308 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:05,960 how do you lead change, how do I lead change. 309 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,870 And I could tell you, well, here's my focus and here's what 310 00:18:09,950 --> 00:18:13,390 I'm trying to change. Here's how I believe that thing 311 00:18:13,390 --> 00:18:15,550 changes. For me, it's communication and 312 00:18:15,630 --> 00:18:19,350 and behavior. And here's what I do to help 313 00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:23,470 people make that change and here's why I do what I do. 314 00:18:23,830 --> 00:18:27,150 So all of a sudden and then you could, you know if you'd done 315 00:18:27,150 --> 00:18:29,510 some model building work and done some reflection on that, 316 00:18:29,870 --> 00:18:33,150 you could also say that. And then now we can have a 317 00:18:33,150 --> 00:18:37,790 really effective, what I would call a cross model conversation 318 00:18:38,270 --> 00:18:42,670 where we can name things, make sense of them and really engage 319 00:18:42,670 --> 00:18:48,550 in a very healthy discourse even about what's that about without 320 00:18:48,550 --> 00:18:50,950 needing to sort of beat the other down. 321 00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:54,430 So I think there's a essence or a kind of quality of 322 00:18:54,430 --> 00:18:58,230 conversation that comes from being really clear about what's 323 00:18:58,230 --> 00:19:03,350 your model and it keeps us out of this kind of beating down of 324 00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:05,790 someone else or making somebody else wrong and us right. 325 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,640 In summary, like I think that's really what the Viewbook is 326 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:10,960 about, about building your model. 327 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:13,400 Right. I think you are right. 328 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:17,560 So whether we realize it or not, whether we understand what kind 329 00:19:17,560 --> 00:19:19,960 of model we have, we all have our own models, right? 330 00:19:20,000 --> 00:19:23,320 And we tend to pick it up maybe from childhood, from school, 331 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:27,000 from our past experience, from our managers, right, whoever 332 00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:29,560 that we listen to. I think we all have these models 333 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,080 and it could evolve over the time. 334 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:33,400 Sometimes we are not conscious that we do have this. 335 00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:36,900 Sort of a model in our head that sometimes cause a bias. 336 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:40,500 And I think in your book you try to advocate people to actually 337 00:19:40,500 --> 00:19:44,540 build our own personal models by also maybe understanding other 338 00:19:44,540 --> 00:19:46,220 available models out there, right. 339 00:19:46,220 --> 00:19:49,940 So I think I love the idea, but in the first thing I would like 340 00:19:49,940 --> 00:19:52,900 to ask you, right, because your book eventually talks about 341 00:19:52,900 --> 00:19:55,340 leading change. What do you think are some of 342 00:19:55,340 --> 00:19:59,340 the common challenges for organizations to lead change? 343 00:19:59,380 --> 00:20:02,260 Because I believe all organizations want to change. 344 00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:05,460 All organizations want to improve, but what are some of 345 00:20:05,460 --> 00:20:08,660 the common challenges you think from organizations making a 346 00:20:08,660 --> 00:20:12,220 successful change? I think there are two big ones. 347 00:20:12,220 --> 00:20:18,860 Probably the biggest one that I see is that we do not make a 348 00:20:18,860 --> 00:20:21,420 broad generalized statement. So it's not to say that there 349 00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:23,620 aren't you know, pockets somewhere out there. 350 00:20:24,100 --> 00:20:26,460 So if you're working in an organization that you're like, 351 00:20:26,460 --> 00:20:30,700 well that's not true here, but I think broad generalization in 352 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:34,570 Business Today. We don't spend a great deal of 353 00:20:34,570 --> 00:20:41,730 time actually focusing on conversation and creating space 354 00:20:41,730 --> 00:20:46,850 to engage in real conversation. And by that I mean we are 355 00:20:46,850 --> 00:20:50,330 attending to getting below the surface level topic. 356 00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:54,090 So there's so many organizations I go into and the larger they 357 00:20:54,090 --> 00:20:58,290 are, the more prominent this behavior is, is that we create 358 00:20:58,290 --> 00:21:02,070 time boxes for meetings, so. There are organizations that 359 00:21:02,070 --> 00:21:05,630 will tell you, sorry, we only work in 30 minute increments or 360 00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:09,430 you know, our meetings are time boxed to 50 minutes so that we 361 00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:12,230 can, you know, have 5 minutes on the either end of an hour. 362 00:21:12,630 --> 00:21:15,510 So I'm not saying that that's bad and I'm not saying that you 363 00:21:15,510 --> 00:21:18,790 shouldn't have time boxes for your meetings and that you 364 00:21:18,790 --> 00:21:20,990 shouldn't try to condense the amount of time that we're in 365 00:21:20,990 --> 00:21:23,630 meetings. But I also think we're fatigued 366 00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:26,270 of meetings and in the broad generalization. 367 00:21:27,010 --> 00:21:31,610 And I think that's happening because we come to places where 368 00:21:31,610 --> 00:21:35,410 we gather together and we do a whole lot of other things, but 369 00:21:35,410 --> 00:21:38,170 communicating with one another isn't really what we're doing. 370 00:21:38,730 --> 00:21:41,610 I think, you know, remember I shared, you know, sometimes I 371 00:21:41,610 --> 00:21:44,490 see a different version of leaders and one-on-one coaching 372 00:21:44,490 --> 00:21:47,290 than I see when they show up with their teams. 373 00:21:47,730 --> 00:21:51,450 I think that's because we're just all full of assumptions, 374 00:21:51,570 --> 00:21:55,850 biases, the facade that we feel like we have to play or put on. 375 00:21:56,270 --> 00:21:58,350 And so we show up to these meetings and we throw a lot of 376 00:21:58,350 --> 00:22:01,270 sentences around. We move shells around on the 377 00:22:01,270 --> 00:22:03,070 table. We keep it out of very surface 378 00:22:03,070 --> 00:22:04,470 level. We move fast. 379 00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:07,510 We try to get things done, wrap it up and then move on. 380 00:22:07,950 --> 00:22:11,430 And I think a lot of times if you find yourself walking away 381 00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:14,870 from a meeting going, I don't think I really agree with that. 382 00:22:14,910 --> 00:22:17,310 Or, you know, I really see it differently. 383 00:22:17,310 --> 00:22:19,550 But I didn't feel like I had space to say it. 384 00:22:19,550 --> 00:22:24,190 So now I'm saying it to my colleague in a chat channel or 385 00:22:24,190 --> 00:22:27,850 I'm saying it to someone. Over lunch, we're now I'm kind 386 00:22:27,850 --> 00:22:31,370 of griping or complaining about it rather than really having an 387 00:22:31,370 --> 00:22:32,690 opportunity to stay at the meeting. 388 00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:37,010 I think that is the crux of what I call Groundhog Day 389 00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:39,650 conversations. So it's a little bit like a 390 00:22:39,650 --> 00:22:43,970 signal or a flag. If you find yourself having the 391 00:22:43,970 --> 00:22:48,570 same conversation over and over again in your team or at work, I 392 00:22:48,570 --> 00:22:52,210 think chances are you're staying on the surface level and you're 393 00:22:52,210 --> 00:22:54,370 not getting to the real conversation. 394 00:22:54,940 --> 00:22:58,020 So I really think that one of our greatest challenges in 395 00:22:58,020 --> 00:23:03,700 organizations is to have a way and a language for navigating 396 00:23:03,980 --> 00:23:08,380 the interpersonal group dynamics that are happening as we are 397 00:23:08,380 --> 00:23:12,980 trying to do big things like leading change is high stakes, 398 00:23:12,980 --> 00:23:16,020 leadership in general is high stakes and then introducing new 399 00:23:16,020 --> 00:23:19,060 ways of work or wanting something to be different, I 400 00:23:19,060 --> 00:23:24,340 think is also high stakes. So I think we don't have a way. 401 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,760 To talk about how we're communicating and I don't think 402 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:30,160 we create this space to talk about it. 403 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,400 Thanks for emphasizing this thing about communication and 404 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,320 the space to create that great conversation, right. 405 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,520 Because, yeah, I believe many organizations when tackling 406 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,880 changes, they always comes from process, maybe introducing new 407 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,660 people right at the top, introducing processes, but 408 00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,100 rarely also talk about the impact of the people or making 409 00:23:52,100 --> 00:23:55,100 conversations so that every parties are listened to. 410 00:23:55,620 --> 00:23:57,340 So I think thanks for emphasizing that. 411 00:23:57,780 --> 00:24:00,900 So let's go to your model in the book, right. 412 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:04,740 You mentioned there are four models that people should think 413 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:07,820 about when they want to come up with their own personal model 414 00:24:07,820 --> 00:24:10,540 for leading change. The four models are the 415 00:24:10,540 --> 00:24:14,940 behavioral model, the model for leadership, model for living and 416 00:24:14,940 --> 00:24:17,340 model for leading change itself at the end. 417 00:24:17,820 --> 00:24:20,420 So maybe if we can go just a little bit one by one, right. 418 00:24:20,420 --> 00:24:24,780 So the behavioral model, So why do you think it's very important 419 00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:27,660 for us to understand about behavioral model and what 420 00:24:27,660 --> 00:24:30,580 exactly is behavioral model for some people, maybe they are not 421 00:24:30,580 --> 00:24:32,460 aware of this term? Yeah. 422 00:24:32,940 --> 00:24:37,180 So behavioral model is what David Kanter would call our way 423 00:24:37,180 --> 00:24:41,580 of looking at the way we are behaving with one another and a 424 00:24:41,580 --> 00:24:43,920 lot of. What I talked about in the book 425 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,120 uses the theory of structural dynamics to do that. 426 00:24:46,120 --> 00:24:51,560 So a way of looking at behavior is to look at the words that we 427 00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:54,760 are saying when we are communicating with one another. 428 00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:59,120 So looking at speech acts and the flow of those speech acts 429 00:24:59,120 --> 00:25:03,000 and whether there are sort of multiple levels of our 430 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,400 communication, so the direction that we're studying in 431 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,400 communication, how we're relating to one another. 432 00:25:08,900 --> 00:25:12,460 The things or the communication domains that we actually care 433 00:25:12,460 --> 00:25:16,460 about and then David talks about sort of a force level is in our 434 00:25:16,460 --> 00:25:19,820 behavior as childhood story. So what happened to us as we 435 00:25:19,820 --> 00:25:22,460 were growing up that really influences our behavior. 436 00:25:22,820 --> 00:25:25,820 So she hear me talk about leaders like they're different 437 00:25:25,820 --> 00:25:28,300 in a oneonone than they are in a team. 438 00:25:28,940 --> 00:25:33,620 A lot of that for all of us, myself included, will be how I 439 00:25:33,620 --> 00:25:38,490 grew up and the stories. The old narratives that gets 440 00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:42,450 laid down when I was younger about why I do what I do and 441 00:25:42,450 --> 00:25:45,050 when I encounter someone else, how will I behave? 442 00:25:45,490 --> 00:25:48,010 And then writing the new narrative that says actually, 443 00:25:48,370 --> 00:25:50,890 you know, hey Marsha, you're not on the playground anymore, you 444 00:25:50,890 --> 00:25:53,090 are an adult. This is not that same thing, 445 00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:54,810 even though your brain might start to think it. 446 00:25:55,050 --> 00:26:00,130 So looking at your behavioral model is having a language for 447 00:26:00,130 --> 00:26:02,290 being able to talk about communication. 448 00:26:02,850 --> 00:26:05,690 Being able to be aware of yourself in that communication, 449 00:26:05,690 --> 00:26:08,530 but also being able to make sense of others. 450 00:26:08,570 --> 00:26:11,570 And when I'm interacting with others, or even in a system or 451 00:26:11,570 --> 00:26:15,450 an organization, how can we name the dynamics? 452 00:26:15,450 --> 00:26:18,530 Have a morally neutral way of naming the dynamics. 453 00:26:18,530 --> 00:26:20,650 So that gets that. Really thinking about your 454 00:26:20,650 --> 00:26:25,010 behavioral model is partly do you have a language? 455 00:26:25,010 --> 00:26:27,330 Do you have a model and a language for being able to look 456 00:26:27,330 --> 00:26:32,020 at that in a neutral way? And then the other part is David 457 00:26:32,020 --> 00:26:36,820 Cantor would call it functional selfawareness, but are you aware 458 00:26:37,100 --> 00:26:40,380 of how you are behaving in the moment, the impact that you're 459 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:45,020 having on others and the difference between our intent, 460 00:26:45,020 --> 00:26:48,820 which I think many of us have good intent, but we can also 461 00:26:48,820 --> 00:26:52,140 have a negative impact. And so being able to take 462 00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:55,420 responsibility for both our intent and our impact. 463 00:26:55,420 --> 00:26:59,960 And so that behavioral model is. Growing yourself awareness to 464 00:26:59,960 --> 00:27:04,400 the place where you're able to really be in command of yourself 465 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:07,480 when you're interacting with other people, right. 466 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,560 This is part of the book where I find it very, very insightful 467 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,440 and interesting, you know, understanding this model from 468 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,320 David Kanter, right. So I think when you mentioned 469 00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,460 about intent and impact, sometimes we don't see it two 470 00:27:21,460 --> 00:27:23,660 different things, right. We tend that we want to have a 471 00:27:23,660 --> 00:27:26,660 good intent and creating good impact, but sometimes some 472 00:27:26,660 --> 00:27:29,540 people interpret it differently because of the different models, 473 00:27:29,540 --> 00:27:31,700 right. And you have mentioned a couple 474 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:33,300 of times about structural dynamics. 475 00:27:33,300 --> 00:27:35,900 So I think this is also important, maybe we can't go 476 00:27:35,900 --> 00:27:38,540 through all of them, but maybe high level, what is structural 477 00:27:38,540 --> 00:27:41,540 dynamics and which part is your favorite from this structural 478 00:27:41,540 --> 00:27:44,900 dynamics? Yeah, well it's based on David's 479 00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:48,180 research of face to face communication and. 480 00:27:48,740 --> 00:27:51,060 Without kind of all the background of how the theory 481 00:27:51,060 --> 00:27:54,460 came to be, you know he talks about four levels of being able 482 00:27:54,460 --> 00:27:58,140 to look at communication and of all the models around 483 00:27:58,140 --> 00:28:02,860 communication that I have been introduced to or even aware of 484 00:28:03,180 --> 00:28:05,300 my experience with sexual dynamics. 485 00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:11,820 It is probably the most complete way of looking at the complexity 486 00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:14,820 in some sense of the dynamics that are happening in 487 00:28:14,820 --> 00:28:17,060 communication. So he talks about there being 4 488 00:28:17,060 --> 00:28:20,360 levels. The first is the most visible, 489 00:28:20,360 --> 00:28:24,160 and those are action modes. The 2nd is operating systems. 490 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,960 That's a bit about how the norms that we use to relate with one 491 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,920 another. Communication domains are the 492 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,480 language that we use that sort of indicates the things that we 493 00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:38,480 care about or value, and the 4th level being childhood story. 494 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,800 And of all four of those, I think my most favorite one is 495 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:46,520 the action modes. Primarily because I think it's 496 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,720 easily accessible to people. You don't need to understand, 497 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:54,280 you know, a ton of the theory behind it and I think it can 498 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,680 have an impact just by getting started in that space. 499 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,520 So just as a really brief example, I would say all 500 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,680 communication, like even an hour dialogue back and forth today, 501 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,600 Henry, every sentence that we're saying can be. 502 00:29:11,070 --> 00:29:15,590 Coded into one of four actions. So a move sets direction in the 503 00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:18,430 conversation. So you've made several moves as 504 00:29:18,430 --> 00:29:20,910 you've prompted me with questions, you know, where you 505 00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:23,990 introduced the topic of the book that was a move, and then you've 506 00:29:24,070 --> 00:29:26,070 moved us on to talk about the behavioral model. 507 00:29:26,350 --> 00:29:28,870 So each of those are moves because they're taking our 508 00:29:28,870 --> 00:29:31,910 conversation in a slightly different direction, right? 509 00:29:31,910 --> 00:29:34,990 It's pointing to a different aspect or a different topic to 510 00:29:34,990 --> 00:29:38,270 talk about. So moves are the first action. 511 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,720 The second does follow. So in many instances I am 512 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,800 following behind and supporting the direction. 513 00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,080 If I were to make a counter move, I might say, you know, 514 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:52,440 let's talk about another model which would actually become the 515 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:57,040 third thing which is an oppose, an oppose offers correction in 516 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:59,640 the conversation. It pushes back and it says let's 517 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,200 not talk about the behavioral model. 518 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,080 I'd actually like to talk about the model for living next. 519 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,560 So that would be an oppose and a new move. 520 00:30:07,050 --> 00:30:10,970 And then the 4th action is bystander and so bystanders, A 521 00:30:10,970 --> 00:30:13,730 morally neutral comment about what's happening in the 522 00:30:13,730 --> 00:30:16,890 conversation. So what the theory says is that 523 00:30:16,930 --> 00:30:20,730 we need all four of those to be voiced and active in the 524 00:30:20,730 --> 00:30:24,610 conversation in order for the conversation to be effective. 525 00:30:25,210 --> 00:30:30,530 And yet, because we're humans in, you know, doing our human 526 00:30:30,530 --> 00:30:34,490 dance in between one another a lot of times in teams. 527 00:30:34,820 --> 00:30:38,180 Or with people that we work with on a regular basis, we can kind 528 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:45,300 of get stuck in certain patterns where we only use a couple of 529 00:30:45,300 --> 00:30:49,420 those actions and we use the others less frequently. 530 00:30:49,820 --> 00:30:54,540 And so when that happens, the key indicator will be having the 531 00:30:54,540 --> 00:30:56,380 same conversation over and over again. 532 00:30:56,380 --> 00:31:00,740 So if you start to notice in your team, you talk about one 533 00:31:00,740 --> 00:31:03,180 thing one week and gosh darn, you know. 534 00:31:03,610 --> 00:31:06,130 Two weeks later it's you're back talking about it again and 535 00:31:06,130 --> 00:31:08,570 you're going wait a minute, I thought, I thought we settled 536 00:31:08,570 --> 00:31:11,050 this two weeks ago, but it's resurfaced. 537 00:31:11,410 --> 00:31:14,090 I think those are indicators that there's maybe something 538 00:31:14,090 --> 00:31:18,730 missing in the conversation and if you're able to separate the 539 00:31:18,730 --> 00:31:21,770 what we're talking about, so if you're able to, you and I are 540 00:31:21,770 --> 00:31:24,570 talking about model building for the moment, that's our subject, 541 00:31:24,570 --> 00:31:26,250 that's our what we're talking about. 542 00:31:26,650 --> 00:31:29,370 But if we felt like we were getting stuck in the 543 00:31:29,370 --> 00:31:31,690 conversation, it would be helpful to separate out the 544 00:31:31,690 --> 00:31:33,580 topic. And actually start to look at 545 00:31:33,580 --> 00:31:38,140 how so mentally that looks a bit for me like starting to step 546 00:31:38,140 --> 00:31:40,620 back and go okay. So how am I showing up in this 547 00:31:40,620 --> 00:31:42,420 conversation? Is it working right now? 548 00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:46,780 Or, you know, I might be following a lot and do I need? 549 00:31:46,780 --> 00:31:49,820 Is there something that I'm not saying or is there some way that 550 00:31:49,860 --> 00:31:52,820 I might bring another action that might be needed in the 551 00:31:52,820 --> 00:31:56,180 conversation? So I think action modes are my 552 00:31:56,300 --> 00:32:00,620 most favorite because they're easy enough to get started with. 553 00:32:01,340 --> 00:32:06,660 And I think they are helpful enough to make an impact for 554 00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:10,540 both individuals and a team in terms of how you're noticing the 555 00:32:10,540 --> 00:32:12,860 conversation play out. Right. 556 00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:15,820 So yeah, I think the most important thing about this 557 00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:19,660 action mode she mentions for for us, we have to try to balance 558 00:32:19,660 --> 00:32:21,900 it, I guess, right. Not to be stuck just in one 559 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:24,540 mode, right, Either like following only or it's just 560 00:32:24,540 --> 00:32:26,580 moving only, Right. Because we tend to have this 561 00:32:26,580 --> 00:32:29,340 dynamics between our interactions with people, right? 562 00:32:30,060 --> 00:32:31,460 So I think that's really, really great. 563 00:32:31,700 --> 00:32:34,740 For me personally, my favorite is the childhood stories, right? 564 00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:37,940 So knowing your old narrative and try to build your new 565 00:32:37,940 --> 00:32:40,060 narrative. So I think that is very, very 566 00:32:40,060 --> 00:32:43,020 interesting because sometimes our behaviors, even though we 567 00:32:43,020 --> 00:32:46,300 are really unconscious about certain behavior, why it was 568 00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,060 there. So maybe sometimes you could 569 00:32:48,060 --> 00:32:51,660 relate it back to our childhood experience or trauma, right. 570 00:32:51,980 --> 00:32:54,220 So I think that is really interesting for me. 571 00:32:55,020 --> 00:32:57,420 So let's maybe move on for people who are interested about 572 00:32:57,420 --> 00:33:00,380 this structural dynamics. Maybe we can put more resources 573 00:33:00,380 --> 00:33:02,980 later on in the show notes. But moving on from this 574 00:33:02,980 --> 00:33:05,660 behavioral model, you have this thing called functional 575 00:33:05,660 --> 00:33:07,700 awareness. And there are two things that I 576 00:33:07,700 --> 00:33:11,540 picked up from this part, which is about leadership range and 577 00:33:11,540 --> 00:33:14,860 communicative competence, right? Yeah, this sounds really 578 00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:16,460 interesting. Maybe if we can elaborate a 579 00:33:16,460 --> 00:33:18,220 little bit more about these two terms. 580 00:33:19,060 --> 00:33:20,940 Yeah, I say. All the time. 581 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,000 Mainly because I think I used to undervalue it myself. 582 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,080 So I think This is why I say it all the time. 583 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,120 Awareness precedes choice, precedes change. 584 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,200 So much about model building in general is about building 585 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,080 awareness, but particularly in the space of building a 586 00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,760 behavioral model, the whole point of it is growing your 587 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640 awareness. And that is the work to do, 588 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,360 because awareness is the thing that precedes choice. 589 00:33:50,700 --> 00:33:55,420 So the more where I am, the more in the moment I can catch sight 590 00:33:55,420 --> 00:33:59,420 of something and then make a different choice than the one 591 00:33:59,420 --> 00:34:03,580 I'm making right now. And that is where change comes 592 00:34:03,580 --> 00:34:05,300 from. So awareness precedes choice, 593 00:34:05,300 --> 00:34:10,460 precedes change. So leadership range is for me 594 00:34:10,500 --> 00:34:13,860 about what we were just taught. It has its roots and what we 595 00:34:13,860 --> 00:34:16,060 were just talking about. So for some of us. 596 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,679 It'll be really natural for us to step forward in our 597 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:23,880 leadership. So I guess one thing to to note 598 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:28,600 is that I see leadership as a way of being and acting that's 599 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,719 actually available to everyone. Everyone from a three-year old 600 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,280 can demonstrate leadership. So I don't see it as positional, 601 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:38,800 although I do absolutely think there are people who hold 602 00:34:39,159 --> 00:34:42,560 positional leadership be it in their role or their title or 603 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,960 something. But I think leadership is an act 604 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,570 is available to all of us. And there will be some of us who 605 00:34:48,570 --> 00:34:52,210 just naturally, I would call it lead from the front. 606 00:34:52,449 --> 00:34:56,770 So they set direction, they are energized. 607 00:34:56,770 --> 00:35:01,290 They're just sort of known to be vision setters that comes 608 00:35:01,290 --> 00:35:05,410 naturally to them. And so their work to do will be 609 00:35:05,770 --> 00:35:10,250 also stepping back and creating space for others, you know, so 610 00:35:10,250 --> 00:35:11,930 that they are leading from behind. 611 00:35:12,550 --> 00:35:16,030 And to also consider what it might look like to lead 612 00:35:16,030 --> 00:35:19,430 together. So I think there is leading from 613 00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:21,470 the front. I think there is leading with 614 00:35:21,550 --> 00:35:27,150 others and this idea of stepping back in my leadership range and 615 00:35:27,150 --> 00:35:30,630 creating space or supporting other ideas or getting behind 616 00:35:30,630 --> 00:35:33,870 other ideas. So I don't see leadership as 617 00:35:33,870 --> 00:35:36,710 one-dimensional. I think there's multiple aspects 618 00:35:36,710 --> 00:35:40,270 to it and you know, if you're really good at stepping forward. 619 00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:45,080 Then you're going to have to stretch like your edge is going 620 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,960 to be likely creating space for others. 621 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:53,120 And how do you help rewire your mindset around that? 622 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,320 Because a lot of times if we lead from the front, naturally 623 00:35:56,720 --> 00:36:02,030 we will think stories like. Well, it's my job or if I wasn't 624 00:36:02,030 --> 00:36:05,590 doing that, then I wouldn't be contributing or I wouldn't be 625 00:36:05,670 --> 00:36:08,710 helpful to the group. And so that some of the work to 626 00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:11,670 do and growing your range as a leader. 627 00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:15,390 So that's the first concept as leadership range is that I think 628 00:36:15,390 --> 00:36:17,670 there's a value in all of that. We'll have one that we do 629 00:36:17,670 --> 00:36:21,350 naturally, if you're someone who actually naturally steps back 630 00:36:21,350 --> 00:36:24,630 and creates space for others. You're very quick to get behind 631 00:36:24,630 --> 00:36:28,510 and support other ideas or ask questions or invite other 632 00:36:28,510 --> 00:36:31,590 voices. Your work to do is likely going 633 00:36:31,590 --> 00:36:35,750 to be to also be the one that points and makes them move or 634 00:36:35,750 --> 00:36:39,750 sets direction in some way. So there's stretches I think for 635 00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:44,550 all of us and there's this need to bring range so that we're 636 00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:48,510 able to change something in the moment that isn't working. 637 00:36:48,990 --> 00:36:51,830 And I think that takes a great deal of selfawareness, so. 638 00:36:52,230 --> 00:36:55,710 Leadership range is that first component, Communicative 639 00:36:55,710 --> 00:36:59,350 competence, which that word really is a tongue tire for me. 640 00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:04,630 I've had to really work on it. But communicative competence is 641 00:37:04,670 --> 00:37:08,030 really the you know, I use the framework of structural 642 00:37:08,030 --> 00:37:12,430 dynamics, but do I have the muscle to bring the different 643 00:37:12,590 --> 00:37:15,750 action mode when I need it, or to operate in a different 644 00:37:15,830 --> 00:37:17,870 operating system or communication domain? 645 00:37:18,270 --> 00:37:22,890 So am I able to be fluent? In the conversation given where 646 00:37:22,890 --> 00:37:25,410 the conversation's at or what's needed in the conversation. 647 00:37:26,130 --> 00:37:29,330 Thanks so much for explaining about this leadership range. 648 00:37:29,370 --> 00:37:31,050 I like what you mentioned, right? 649 00:37:31,090 --> 00:37:33,690 The range here refers to sometimes you have to lead from 650 00:37:33,690 --> 00:37:36,010 the front, sometimes you have to step back and leading from 651 00:37:36,010 --> 00:37:39,250 behind and it could be together as well, right, Collaboratively 652 00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:42,720 working on a certain direction. So I think for us leaders, you 653 00:37:42,720 --> 00:37:46,360 have to think about what kind of range that you want to expand 654 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,880 to, not just always up from the front leading and making 655 00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,960 decisions, but sometimes you can support other people to grow as 656 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,680 leaders as well. So I really love that concept 657 00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,200 and communicative competence I think is about coming back to 658 00:37:58,200 --> 00:37:59,960 the structural dynamics thing, right? 659 00:37:59,960 --> 00:38:03,120 Understanding these four different levels and the 660 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:07,040 variations inside them and trying to be able to use those 661 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:10,130 concepts and map it to your communication styles or other 662 00:38:10,130 --> 00:38:13,210 communication styles, right? So maybe regarding 663 00:38:13,210 --> 00:38:16,090 communication, right? And you may have experienced 664 00:38:16,090 --> 00:38:17,770 this in your, you know, coaching as well. 665 00:38:17,890 --> 00:38:21,410 Why do you think communications are so challenging, especially 666 00:38:21,410 --> 00:38:24,330 in this modern world where I think we all are exposed to 667 00:38:24,330 --> 00:38:26,970 different kind of models, different kind of opinions You 668 00:38:26,970 --> 00:38:29,570 mentioned about social media, why communication is so 669 00:38:29,570 --> 00:38:32,930 challenging and what steps we can do to make sure that we can 670 00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:35,130 have effective communication with others? 671 00:38:35,890 --> 00:38:38,210 I think there are two things that make communication 672 00:38:38,210 --> 00:38:41,650 challenging. I've come to believe that this 673 00:38:41,650 --> 00:38:45,570 was true for me along the way, but I've come to believe that we 674 00:38:45,570 --> 00:38:51,290 don't see communication as something that we need to 675 00:38:51,290 --> 00:38:54,650 develop or build. I think we see communication as 676 00:38:54,650 --> 00:38:58,250 something we do all the time, every day, and that we're 677 00:38:58,250 --> 00:39:02,130 already pretty good at it and there's really we can tell 678 00:39:02,130 --> 00:39:04,090 ourselves all kinds of stories. I get things done. 679 00:39:04,580 --> 00:39:08,260 I'm generally liked by others. You know, I get hired. 680 00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:10,180 You know, people ask me to come back for more. 681 00:39:10,660 --> 00:39:15,580 So I think it starts to form this story that, yeah, I don't 682 00:39:15,580 --> 00:39:17,620 see you. I mean, I need some other tools 683 00:39:17,620 --> 00:39:21,020 or I need some other processes. But I don't really know that 684 00:39:21,260 --> 00:39:25,060 communication is really where I would focus my personal 685 00:39:25,060 --> 00:39:28,060 development space or even our collective development. 686 00:39:28,060 --> 00:39:31,020 So I think that we think we do communication really well. 687 00:39:31,540 --> 00:39:34,820 George Bernard Shaw. He's an Irish playwright and he 688 00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:38,220 has a quote that is probably my all time favorite quote and he 689 00:39:38,220 --> 00:39:41,660 says the biggest challenge in communication is the illusion 690 00:39:42,020 --> 00:39:46,900 that it has taken place and I think that is what happens a 691 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:49,380 lot. So I think those times where we 692 00:39:49,620 --> 00:39:52,100 have Groundhog Day conversations or we keep coming back to 693 00:39:52,100 --> 00:39:55,780 something or we're trying to make something happen and it 694 00:39:55,780 --> 00:39:58,500 gets stuck and it's just not moving forward. 695 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,960 And it can feel difficult or vulnerable or scary to actually 696 00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:07,080 slow down and surface what might be the real conversation. 697 00:40:07,440 --> 00:40:09,720 Or we have a story that that would just take too much time 698 00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,240 and we've got to keep moving. So instead of doing that, I 699 00:40:13,240 --> 00:40:18,080 think what we do is we resort to processes, tools and techniques. 700 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:22,240 We go searching for a new model, or we go searching for a new 701 00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:25,000 process, or we look for a new facilitation. 702 00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:27,630 Process that would help a group solve this. 703 00:40:27,670 --> 00:40:31,030 Or we go looking for how do I navigate conflict. 704 00:40:31,030 --> 00:40:33,870 And we did ourselves multiple books on how to navigate 705 00:40:33,870 --> 00:40:36,150 conflict. So I think all of those are 706 00:40:36,150 --> 00:40:38,470 indicators that there's something broken in the 707 00:40:38,670 --> 00:40:40,990 conversation in the communication piece. 708 00:40:41,350 --> 00:40:46,310 But we don't see that as a place where we should do any sort of 709 00:40:46,470 --> 00:40:48,550 development or skill building. And so we go out looking for 710 00:40:48,550 --> 00:40:51,070 other things. And you know, I think that just 711 00:40:51,190 --> 00:40:54,390 it gets us caught in this sort of endless spin loop. 712 00:40:55,260 --> 00:40:57,220 Thanks so much for your explanation, Marcia. 713 00:40:57,380 --> 00:41:00,500 So maybe let's move on to the second model of your model for 714 00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:02,820 leading change, right, which is the model for leadership. 715 00:41:02,900 --> 00:41:06,060 So maybe if you can elaborate what kind of model that we 716 00:41:06,060 --> 00:41:07,660 should think about for our leadership? 717 00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:11,940 Here, yes. So I'll say just contextually a 718 00:41:11,940 --> 00:41:15,060 little bit as we think about model building, what we're 719 00:41:15,060 --> 00:41:18,780 leading towards is a model for leading change. 720 00:41:19,060 --> 00:41:23,220 And if you think about that being kind of your direction, I 721 00:41:23,220 --> 00:41:27,790 think about the three models of behavior, leadership and then 722 00:41:27,790 --> 00:41:31,030 model for living assertive, sitting under your feet, it's 723 00:41:31,030 --> 00:41:35,070 kind of your place of grounded confidence about what you're 724 00:41:35,070 --> 00:41:37,350 doing. And so we've talked about models 725 00:41:37,350 --> 00:41:42,310 for behavior and really the focus of having a way of reading 726 00:41:42,310 --> 00:41:44,750 the dynamics between individuals. 727 00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:48,430 And then I think this next component is, it's your 728 00:41:48,430 --> 00:41:51,950 professional model. It's how you know, how will you 729 00:41:52,070 --> 00:41:56,490 read, what does leadership mean to you, what would it look like 730 00:41:56,690 --> 00:42:00,810 and most importantly, how do you grow leadership for yourself and 731 00:42:00,810 --> 00:42:03,450 others. And so there isn't one right 732 00:42:03,450 --> 00:42:06,850 way, but I think there absolutely is your way. 733 00:42:07,410 --> 00:42:10,970 And in the process of model building, I think it's really 734 00:42:10,970 --> 00:42:16,010 helpful David Cantrey is to talk about this concept of imitation 735 00:42:16,090 --> 00:42:19,610 constraint and autonomy. So if you think back for a 736 00:42:19,610 --> 00:42:23,690 moment, any time you've been introduced to a new model, so 737 00:42:24,050 --> 00:42:27,210 even for some listeners today it might be I'm learning about 738 00:42:27,210 --> 00:42:28,970 structural dynamics for the first time. 739 00:42:29,450 --> 00:42:33,530 There is an aspect or or time when we are truly going to 740 00:42:33,690 --> 00:42:35,810 imitate what we see someone else doing. 741 00:42:36,250 --> 00:42:41,450 So it might be you've been introduced to this new way of 742 00:42:41,450 --> 00:42:44,130 leading in a new company that you've joined. 743 00:42:44,130 --> 00:42:47,250 It's different for you. So you really start to go, OK, 744 00:42:47,250 --> 00:42:51,290 so how do I fit in and how do I imitate what I see happening? 745 00:42:51,690 --> 00:42:56,370 And then at some point you are going to have an opposed to what 746 00:42:56,370 --> 00:42:59,930 you are experiencing. That's the first sign that I 747 00:42:59,930 --> 00:43:03,530 think you've entered into the phase of building your own 748 00:43:03,530 --> 00:43:06,530 model. And so imitation leads to 749 00:43:06,530 --> 00:43:08,410 constraint. Now, there are some parts of 750 00:43:08,410 --> 00:43:11,530 this that I'm going to push back on and say that's not for me or 751 00:43:11,530 --> 00:43:14,890 that's not how I would lead or it's not what I would do. 752 00:43:15,340 --> 00:43:19,060 But here is what I would do. And then here's a place that I'm 753 00:43:19,060 --> 00:43:23,540 going to actually start to invent or create an aspect or 754 00:43:23,540 --> 00:43:27,420 I'd combine this thinking with these other things that I think 755 00:43:27,420 --> 00:43:30,260 about. And that's the first place where 756 00:43:30,260 --> 00:43:34,540 I think you start to build autonomy and how you think about 757 00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:38,060 leadership. So I think there is the question 758 00:43:38,060 --> 00:43:41,860 that we're really after is how will I lead and what does 759 00:43:41,860 --> 00:43:43,460 leadership look like? It means to me. 760 00:43:44,980 --> 00:43:47,740 So I like the way you explain about imitation, the constraint 761 00:43:47,740 --> 00:43:49,580 and autonomy. I think in the beginning when we 762 00:43:49,580 --> 00:43:52,660 are all like the junior leader, right, we always imitate, maybe 763 00:43:52,660 --> 00:43:55,940 from our manager or maybe some idols that we look from outside. 764 00:43:55,940 --> 00:43:58,860 Maybe, you know, people like Steve Jobs, Satya Nadella or 765 00:43:58,940 --> 00:44:02,060 people like this, right? And also we try to come up with 766 00:44:02,060 --> 00:44:03,860 our own style, so to speak, right? 767 00:44:04,140 --> 00:44:07,180 And then in the end, when we are more experienced, I guess we can 768 00:44:07,180 --> 00:44:10,260 have our own autonomy in deciding how we want to lead and 769 00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:12,300 how to change, make a change, right? 770 00:44:12,860 --> 00:44:15,780 And you mentioned the so-called the peer of model for leadership 771 00:44:15,780 --> 00:44:18,700 is actually model for living. So maybe when we talk about 772 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:21,220 model for leadership, we are talking more about professional 773 00:44:21,300 --> 00:44:24,260 or you know work life, Yes and. Model for living? 774 00:44:24,260 --> 00:44:25,540 Maybe it's for personal. OK. 775 00:44:25,540 --> 00:44:27,860 Maybe you can elaborate more. Yeah. 776 00:44:28,380 --> 00:44:30,860 Well, first, yes, the professional model of 777 00:44:30,860 --> 00:44:33,100 leadership. And then I think one of the 778 00:44:33,100 --> 00:44:37,700 biggest aspects that David Cantor was after was we can't 779 00:44:37,700 --> 00:44:41,540 just focus on our professional world or our professional 780 00:44:41,540 --> 00:44:46,120 leadership without also a model for living is we'd be out of 781 00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,920 balance. We'd be not aligned with where 782 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,480 we want to be. And so the big question that 783 00:44:52,480 --> 00:44:57,200 model for living looks to answer is what does it mean to live a 784 00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,720 life worth living and just let that question sink in. 785 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:04,520 Like, I think it's such a provocative question. 786 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:08,040 I've worked with leaders who actually push back on it. 787 00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,280 Well, you know what? What would I mean to live a life 788 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,080 not worth living? That, You know, that could be a 789 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,240 little scary to think about. But I think it's a big, open 790 00:45:15,240 --> 00:45:20,800 invitation to defining for each of us, what is a life worth 791 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,280 living? What is my purpose? 792 00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,240 Why do I roll out of bed in the morning? 793 00:45:25,240 --> 00:45:28,320 What's important to me? What are the values that I 794 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,240 really hold to? And what does balance look like 795 00:45:31,240 --> 00:45:34,440 between the professional life and the personal life? 796 00:45:34,860 --> 00:45:38,380 What does that even mean? And so it's an invitation to 797 00:45:38,740 --> 00:45:42,100 help all of us think through. Like what does that life worth 798 00:45:42,100 --> 00:45:45,180 living look like? Wow, I really love that 799 00:45:45,260 --> 00:45:48,740 invitation question, right? What is the life that you think 800 00:45:48,860 --> 00:45:51,980 worth to live, right? So live the life that is worth 801 00:45:51,980 --> 00:45:54,700 living for us. So I think that's a very, very 802 00:45:54,700 --> 00:45:57,660 big question for sure, right? Because for some of us, we may 803 00:45:57,660 --> 00:46:00,580 go through the motions maybe with the business with all this, 804 00:46:00,580 --> 00:46:02,780 you know, work stuff, family stuff and things like that. 805 00:46:03,210 --> 00:46:07,690 And stop thinking about the kind of worth of life that we want to 806 00:46:07,690 --> 00:46:10,170 aspire, right. So I think that's really, really 807 00:46:10,170 --> 00:46:13,370 great. So having both of these now with 808 00:46:13,370 --> 00:46:16,650 the behavioral model at the foundation, your last part is 809 00:46:16,650 --> 00:46:18,970 actually model for leading the change itself. 810 00:46:18,970 --> 00:46:22,210 So how can we play with all these different models and come 811 00:46:22,210 --> 00:46:24,090 up with our own model for leading change? 812 00:46:24,890 --> 00:46:27,490 Yeah. Well, I think clarity about 813 00:46:27,770 --> 00:46:31,410 behavior and how it contributes to how we communicate with one 814 00:46:31,410 --> 00:46:34,060 another. So the rails that all of our 815 00:46:34,060 --> 00:46:37,460 interactions sit on, thinking about how I want to lead, what 816 00:46:37,460 --> 00:46:41,340 that looks like, how I want to live and what the balance of 817 00:46:41,340 --> 00:46:45,100 living and leadership look like for me, those are the foundation 818 00:46:45,100 --> 00:46:47,780 that I stand on. And then this bigger question 819 00:46:47,780 --> 00:46:51,420 about leading change. So in change, at the very 820 00:46:51,420 --> 00:46:54,660 beginning of our conversation today, you would have heard me 821 00:46:54,660 --> 00:47:00,960 saying early on my model for change was very processed like 822 00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:06,480 like I had a belief that if I changed the process in an 823 00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:10,120 organization, then all we had to do is communicate the process 824 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:13,240 and manage the change and then change would happen. 825 00:47:13,720 --> 00:47:16,360 That's not wrong. It's just it's a older model for 826 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,920 me now it's evolved and the way I would describe my model for 827 00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:23,800 leading change today is very behavior centric. 828 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:28,800 So I hold the belief that the thing, but I'm trying to help 829 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:32,800 organizations change is how they communicate and behave with one 830 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:36,280 another. And that when all of those, when 831 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,320 that action and that communication is fully online 832 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:43,160 and a team is able to navigate complexities and breakdown and 833 00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,560 they're able to build the muscle of making it through a 834 00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,920 breakdown, not to avoiding breakdown, then that is where 835 00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,840 change starts to happen. And then I hold the belief that 836 00:47:53,330 --> 00:47:57,250 it won't matter what that team or that organization encounters 837 00:47:57,290 --> 00:48:00,330 in in the daily life, they can navigate change. 838 00:48:00,810 --> 00:48:03,170 So that's just a little bit about my model. 839 00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:06,930 I would also say this part of my model for leading change today 840 00:48:07,330 --> 00:48:11,050 is the belief that change doesn't happen until people feel 841 00:48:11,090 --> 00:48:16,290 heard and understood and once that comes on board then things 842 00:48:16,290 --> 00:48:20,500 will move forward. So the model for leading change 843 00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:25,060 for all of us, the question to be asking is what is the thing 844 00:48:25,180 --> 00:48:29,060 that I am trying to change? How do I believe change comes 845 00:48:29,060 --> 00:48:32,140 about. I think one of our challenges in 846 00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:36,460 change and any team or organization or even at home is 847 00:48:36,620 --> 00:48:40,780 we just set about, we see a gap and we say this is how it's 848 00:48:40,780 --> 00:48:44,460 working today and this is how I want it to work tomorrow or six 849 00:48:44,460 --> 00:48:46,020 months from now or nine months from now. 850 00:48:46,460 --> 00:48:51,600 And we set a declaration. We might even paint a big vision 851 00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:55,160 and get people to buy into it. And then we just set about 852 00:48:55,200 --> 00:48:59,640 expecting it to happen. And I think that is the crux of 853 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,520 where things start to break down. 854 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,720 We learn things, things evolve as we start to try to make 855 00:49:04,720 --> 00:49:09,040 something new happen. We encounter resistance and then 856 00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,120 we don't want to work with the resistance or we don't know how 857 00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,880 to work with resistance. So we just minimize it or we 858 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,450 tell people to just do your job or why can't you just do what I 859 00:49:18,450 --> 00:49:23,130 said to do And all those things, those phrases that we can use, I 860 00:49:23,130 --> 00:49:25,450 think because really good intentions. 861 00:49:25,450 --> 00:49:28,170 But I think for many of us, we just don't know how to work with 862 00:49:28,170 --> 00:49:30,850 it. So we've default to the do so 863 00:49:30,850 --> 00:49:34,450 because I told you so kind of thing and let's just get on with 864 00:49:34,450 --> 00:49:35,610 it. You know we're up to bigger 865 00:49:35,610 --> 00:49:38,170 things here. I think every time we do 866 00:49:38,170 --> 00:49:41,410 something like that, it's a little bit like sweeping the 867 00:49:41,410 --> 00:49:45,360 real topic under the rug and then it then it just gets to the 868 00:49:45,360 --> 00:49:47,880 point where the rugs so big we can't open the door, get in the 869 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:49,680 door. And now we've sort of got this 870 00:49:49,720 --> 00:49:55,000 backlog of conversation. So we haven't had conversational 871 00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,600 debt that we haven't had that we need to have and change just 872 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:00,240 becomes really stagnant or stuck. 873 00:50:00,240 --> 00:50:03,880 So all that's my model and I'm really clear about it. 874 00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:08,480 I understand why I do what I do. It helps me be clear about 875 00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:12,200 making suggestions for a team. It helps me be clear about I 876 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:15,200 know when I'm going to do something that potentially 877 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:20,200 perturbs or frustrates or angers A-Team and I'm doing so with 878 00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:22,880 really clear intention because I'm helping them to try to 879 00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,160 change something. So I'm just a really big 880 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:29,520 proponent of for all of us both individually and collectively. 881 00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:33,960 So if we're trying to lead change, what is the thing that 882 00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:36,800 we're trying to change? How do we believe change happens 883 00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:39,750 for that thing? In my case, it's behavior, but 884 00:50:39,750 --> 00:50:42,270 for you it might be something entirely different, it might be 885 00:50:42,270 --> 00:50:45,070 process. So then how do you go about 886 00:50:45,150 --> 00:50:48,310 bringing change to that and what are the steps that you would do? 887 00:50:48,670 --> 00:50:51,590 And when you encounter the real world, which will be full of all 888 00:50:51,590 --> 00:50:54,630 kinds of different things, how will you adapt? 889 00:50:54,910 --> 00:50:58,390 How will you adapt your model to account for some of the real 890 00:50:58,390 --> 00:51:00,030 world scenarios that you encounter? 891 00:51:00,030 --> 00:51:03,950 So that's the model for leading change is what are we trying to 892 00:51:03,950 --> 00:51:06,070 change? The one other thing I'd say 893 00:51:06,070 --> 00:51:11,980 about it is we can all have individual models for change and 894 00:51:12,220 --> 00:51:15,700 for part of a team or we're leading an organization. 895 00:51:15,980 --> 00:51:21,500 We've got to take the time to get aligned on what we believe 896 00:51:21,700 --> 00:51:24,300 our collective model for changes. 897 00:51:24,820 --> 00:51:29,580 Otherwise we'll have a leadership team who sees the 898 00:51:29,580 --> 00:51:32,100 world differently. Each of them will likely see the 899 00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:35,690 world differently and we'll be advocating for different things. 900 00:51:35,690 --> 00:51:40,250 So if I was part of a leadership team and I'm advocating for 901 00:51:40,450 --> 00:51:45,090 conversation and behavior, change first, and then the other 902 00:51:45,090 --> 00:51:47,730 things will flow, That's my model for change. 903 00:51:47,970 --> 00:51:51,770 If I'm working with someone who's up here and their model 904 00:51:51,770 --> 00:51:57,370 for change is about process and their belief is that metrics are 905 00:51:57,370 --> 00:51:59,970 indicators of organizational change happening. 906 00:52:00,650 --> 00:52:04,280 The two of us, we've all been in organizations where we've 907 00:52:04,280 --> 00:52:07,160 experienced this. The two of us on that leadership 908 00:52:07,160 --> 00:52:11,520 team are going to be having a model clash about how change 909 00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:15,080 happens. And we are going to be really 910 00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,680 confusing for everyone else because one of us is going to be 911 00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:21,240 asking for metrics and proof, the other is going to be asking 912 00:52:21,280 --> 00:52:25,200 for behavior. And for those that we are 913 00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,200 leading and that are working with us, the rest are going to 914 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,800 be super confused and frustrated. 915 00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,880 So now not only do we have misalignments around what the 916 00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:38,600 model for changes, but now we've got confusion happening across 917 00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,400 the organization. And that'll happen only for so 918 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:43,680 long before people are just going to throw up their hands 919 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:46,480 and be like, look you all sorted out and let me know what you 920 00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,000 want me to do or I'm confused. I don't know how to operate in 921 00:52:50,000 --> 00:52:53,200 this. So I think we have a way of 922 00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,400 wanting change to happen. I think all of us can agree that 923 00:52:56,400 --> 00:52:59,320 change is constant. It's ever evolving. 924 00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:04,030 I think we're at a pace with technology, particularly where 925 00:53:04,350 --> 00:53:09,790 it's constant and fast. And if we don't find ways to 926 00:53:09,790 --> 00:53:13,870 create structures to help us communicate with one another and 927 00:53:13,870 --> 00:53:17,910 help us lead change effectively, we're really going to be left 928 00:53:17,910 --> 00:53:19,670 behind. And I think it's going to give 929 00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:21,430 you more difficult than it is today. 930 00:53:21,430 --> 00:53:25,310 So I'm a huge advocate for defining your own model, but 931 00:53:25,350 --> 00:53:28,430 also collectively as a leadership system. 932 00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,000 How do we want to bring about change? 933 00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:33,960 And so if we've got different models, let's sort that out 934 00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,360 first and let's come to alignment on how we're going to 935 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:39,720 lead change here in this organization. 936 00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:44,040 Let's have that model building conversation and now we can be 937 00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:47,320 an aligned leadership team asking for things, setting 938 00:53:47,320 --> 00:53:49,920 direction and inviting others into that process. 939 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,000 And it's going to work a lot better so. 940 00:53:53,220 --> 00:53:55,820 Wow, really a great reminder for us leaders, right. 941 00:53:55,820 --> 00:53:59,980 So not only the leaders model but also with the peers, also 942 00:53:59,980 --> 00:54:01,380 with the people within the team, right. 943 00:54:01,380 --> 00:54:04,140 The collective model that we want to adapt together. 944 00:54:04,620 --> 00:54:07,500 And when there's a model crash, actually, yeah, sometimes they 945 00:54:07,500 --> 00:54:10,660 may create like silos or maybe duality, right. 946 00:54:10,860 --> 00:54:13,260 So you follow a certain stuff for certain leaders, but 947 00:54:13,260 --> 00:54:14,660 different leaders is a different thing. 948 00:54:14,660 --> 00:54:17,260 So I think that's a very, very good reminder for all of us. 949 00:54:17,660 --> 00:54:20,820 And I like the book. It's actually a workbook, right? 950 00:54:20,820 --> 00:54:24,110 It's not really just theories. And you know, just telling you 951 00:54:24,110 --> 00:54:27,910 what stuff, but actually you go through the reflection looking 952 00:54:27,950 --> 00:54:30,590 what kind of models that resonate with you maybe from 953 00:54:30,590 --> 00:54:32,270 your past as well past experience. 954 00:54:32,470 --> 00:54:35,470 So I think this book is really not just a theory book, but it's 955 00:54:35,470 --> 00:54:39,310 a workbook that you can use to actually look and build into 956 00:54:39,310 --> 00:54:42,550 your perfect model for the time being, right until you evolve 957 00:54:42,590 --> 00:54:45,270 and get another model. So thank you so much for sharing 958 00:54:45,270 --> 00:54:46,990 Marcia. As we reach the end of our 959 00:54:46,990 --> 00:54:50,390 conversation, I only have one last question which I normally 960 00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:53,230 ask for all my guests here in tech regional podcast and the 961 00:54:53,230 --> 00:54:55,670 question is called the tree technical leadership wisdom. 962 00:54:55,950 --> 00:54:58,510 So you can think of it just like an advice that you wanna give to 963 00:54:58,510 --> 00:55:01,310 us listeners to learn from you. So maybe if you can share your 964 00:55:01,310 --> 00:55:04,270 version of tree technical leadership wisdom, Yeah. 965 00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:10,400 Well, I think that the 1st place I'd point all of us is to focus 966 00:55:10,400 --> 00:55:13,680 on how we're communicating with one another. 967 00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:18,640 So the idea would be when things get tough or difficult, can you 968 00:55:18,640 --> 00:55:23,080 separate the what from the how? So the what is the topic that 969 00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,080 we're talking about? How will be, how we're engaging 970 00:55:26,080 --> 00:55:28,760 in the conversation. So I think there's just a 971 00:55:29,120 --> 00:55:32,880 reflective piece to that is, you know, even if you take the four 972 00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:37,220 player model, move, follow, oppose and bystand or all four 973 00:55:37,220 --> 00:55:40,740 of those actions coming online or is there one action that I'm 974 00:55:40,740 --> 00:55:44,980 getting stuck in, Am I stuck in oppose and I really could use 975 00:55:44,980 --> 00:55:49,180 bystand in the conversation or am I stuck in move and I really 976 00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:51,140 need to step back and Createspace for others. 977 00:55:51,140 --> 00:55:55,580 So I think the biggest pieces understand the role that 978 00:55:55,580 --> 00:56:00,020 communication plays in everything that we're doing and 979 00:56:00,020 --> 00:56:01,860 whether it's moving forward or not. 980 00:56:02,220 --> 00:56:07,830 And resist the temptation to go find new things and to actually 981 00:56:07,830 --> 00:56:11,030 bring it back to how we're communicating and to be able to 982 00:56:11,030 --> 00:56:14,830 separate your health from your what will be the first place to 983 00:56:15,070 --> 00:56:16,310 to be able to catch sight of that. 984 00:56:16,310 --> 00:56:20,590 So that would be my first tip. I think my second one would be 985 00:56:20,950 --> 00:56:24,910 carving out time to slow the conversation down. 986 00:56:25,230 --> 00:56:29,910 It's this idea that yes, we need pace in our organizations. 987 00:56:29,910 --> 00:56:31,790 We need those 30 minute meetings. 988 00:56:32,230 --> 00:56:38,230 They service a purpose and there also is real value in slowing 989 00:56:38,230 --> 00:56:41,550 things down, building relationships, bringing the real 990 00:56:41,550 --> 00:56:45,150 conversation in the room. So even in my company, Team 991 00:56:45,150 --> 00:56:49,470 Catapult over the last several years, we have taken to 992 00:56:49,470 --> 00:56:52,550 following our own advice. We've found it really helpful. 993 00:56:52,590 --> 00:56:56,630 And once a month, the first Thursday of every month for 1/2 994 00:56:56,630 --> 00:57:00,670 day is our dialogue space. So it's agendaless. 995 00:57:01,180 --> 00:57:05,540 Anybody can bring any topic, and the goal is really to talk about 996 00:57:05,540 --> 00:57:08,580 how we're working with one another so we resist the 997 00:57:08,580 --> 00:57:11,220 temptation to talk about all the other things. 998 00:57:11,580 --> 00:57:14,340 And that's probably some of the richest dialogue I have. 999 00:57:14,820 --> 00:57:19,100 And it's become so valuable for me because there are times where 1000 00:57:19,300 --> 00:57:22,020 we can just get caught up and moving things forward. 1001 00:57:22,020 --> 00:57:27,120 I'm I'm can be just as guilty of that and I know that we've got 1002 00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:30,800 the space to slow down so it's really helpful to have it carved 1003 00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:33,480 out on the calendar. So I would just encourage 1004 00:57:33,480 --> 00:57:36,040 everyone to be thinking about how you carve out that time for 1005 00:57:36,040 --> 00:57:38,320 you. That sort of pace and cadence 1006 00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:42,000 works for us. I just had someone on my podcast 1007 00:57:42,080 --> 00:57:44,960 there and he works in two weeks sprints with A1 week 1008 00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:47,960 retrospective. So it's a three-week kind of 1009 00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:51,000 time box. So you know for them they move 1010 00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:54,640 at such a pace in their covering so much that the one week 1011 00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,680 retrospective where they actually create time to reflect. 1012 00:57:57,680 --> 00:58:01,120 So I think that's another example of how you might carve 1013 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,120 out time. I think the third thing I'd say 1014 00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:10,680 is growing your leadership range is work to do for all of us. 1015 00:58:11,000 --> 00:58:15,120 So just noticing where your tendencies are and looking for 1016 00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:19,200 ways to change the range that you have your ability to bring 1017 00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,010 something different in the moment when it's needed and not 1018 00:58:22,010 --> 00:58:26,810 to be so stuck or believe that one version of that is the only 1019 00:58:26,810 --> 00:58:29,930 version that adds value. So I think it's ongoing work. 1020 00:58:29,930 --> 00:58:33,290 I don't think we're ever done with it and I think there's such 1021 00:58:33,290 --> 00:58:35,970 a gift in being able to have range, you know, leadership. 1022 00:58:36,010 --> 00:58:39,210 So this would be my free. Right. 1023 00:58:39,650 --> 00:58:42,250 I think that's really lovely. I love all of them actually. 1024 00:58:42,290 --> 00:58:45,210 The 1st is like focus on how we communicate, right? 1025 00:58:45,210 --> 00:58:48,600 I think sometimes we tend to. You know, maybe embody a certain 1026 00:58:48,600 --> 00:58:51,480 style all the way from childhood up until now. 1027 00:58:51,560 --> 00:58:54,400 But knowing this structural dynamics, right, knowing the 1028 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,200 different options, different modes that people have, I think 1029 00:58:57,200 --> 00:58:59,600 it's really, really key. And I love the last one. 1030 00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:02,880 You know, as leaders, it is our responsibility to find the range 1031 00:59:02,880 --> 00:59:04,920 right? Don't get stuck into a certain 1032 00:59:05,200 --> 00:59:07,920 mode only. So, Marsha, if people love this 1033 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:10,920 conversation and they want to follow up with you or find your 1034 00:59:10,920 --> 00:59:13,760 resources, is there a place where they can reach out online? 1035 00:59:14,290 --> 00:59:17,970 Yes, a couple places. The best way to connect with me 1036 00:59:17,970 --> 00:59:21,330 is through LinkedIn, so you can find me at Marcia Acker on 1037 00:59:21,330 --> 00:59:24,370 LinkedIn. And if you're interested in the 1038 00:59:24,370 --> 00:59:28,410 Builder model book, you can go to buildermodel.com and you can 1039 00:59:28,410 --> 00:59:31,810 download a free resource from there that'll give you kind of a 1040 00:59:31,810 --> 00:59:36,250 preview of both the book and what some of the journaling 1041 00:59:36,250 --> 00:59:39,470 prompts look like in it. And then if you're interested in 1042 00:59:39,550 --> 00:59:42,670 coaching for a leader or leadership team, you can find me 1043 00:59:42,670 --> 00:59:45,990 at teamcatapult.com. So those are a couple of places. 1044 00:59:46,630 --> 00:59:48,190 Thank you. I'll make sure to put it in the 1045 00:59:48,190 --> 00:59:49,190 show notes. Thank you so much. 1046 00:59:49,190 --> 00:59:52,470 I hope the listeners here today are inspired about building 1047 00:59:52,470 --> 00:59:55,750 their own model for leading change, becoming the leaders 1048 00:59:55,750 --> 00:59:58,630 that they want instead of just stuff from the situation. 1049 00:59:58,630 --> 01:00:00,510 So thank you again for your sharing, Marcia. 1050 01:00:01,030 --> 01:00:02,470 Henry, thanks for having me. It was great. 1051 01:00:05,410 --> 01:00:08,530 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 1052 01:00:08,570 --> 01:00:11,290 until the end. If you highly enjoyed it, I 1053 01:00:11,290 --> 01:00:13,970 would appreciate if you share it with your friends and colleagues 1054 01:00:14,250 --> 01:00:17,210 who you think would also benefit from listening to this episode. 1055 01:00:17,690 --> 01:00:20,410 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 1056 01:00:20,450 --> 01:00:22,810 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 1057 01:00:23,170 --> 01:00:26,050 It helps me a lot in order to grow this podcast better. 1058 01:00:26,570 --> 01:00:29,450 You can also find the full show notes of this conversation on 1059 01:00:29,450 --> 01:00:32,410 the episode page at Technically journal dot dev website, 1060 01:00:32,730 --> 01:00:36,340 including the full transcript. Interesting quotes and links to 1061 01:00:36,340 --> 01:00:38,740 the resources mentioned from the conversation. 1062 01:00:39,140 --> 01:00:42,220 And lastly, make sure to subscribe to the show's mailing 1063 01:00:42,220 --> 01:00:46,020 list on techlyjuno dot dev to get notified for any future 1064 01:00:46,020 --> 01:00:48,300 episodes. Stay tuned for the next 1065 01:00:48,300 --> 01:00:51,540 Techlyjuno episode, and until then, goodbye.