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Focus on what really matters. If everything matters, the
nothing matters. So Figure out what really
matters and use that kind of as a guide to help you make
decisions about pretty much everything.
But certainly how you use your time, how your team's use, your
time, how your company's use their time, make sure that what
you do is aligned with what really matters and if you do,
then you will almost surely become that person or company or
product or whatever it is that you want to be Hey everyone.
My name is Henry Surya with Robin.
And you're listening to the technology, you know, podcast
the show where I'll be bringing you the greatest technical
leaders practitioners and thought leaders in the industry
to discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all
can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your personal work.
So let's dive into our Journal. Hello again, to all of you, my
friends and listeners. It's really great to be back
here again with another new episode of the Tecla Journal
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Have you ever felt that despite many things that you have done,
you still feel that you're going nowhere or if you are a high
performer, despite accomplishing.
So many things, you still feel not fulfilled.
And thus, feel unhappy or for some of us, you just don't know
where to start in order to live the life you want.
Life can be challenging at times and despite wherever you are in
your journey, we are going to learn a powerful framework
called personal agility system in our episode today.
My guest, for today's episode, our Peter Stevens, and Maria,
Mozzarella Pizza and Maria are the co-founders of the personal
agility Institute and the authors of personal agility book
in this episode, Peter and Maria shared, what personal agility
system is, and how we can apply this framework in our daily
lives. Learning from their own stories
and lessons, Peter and Maria highlighted how many people face
typical challenges that hinder them from true.
Only getting what they want by using the life, is an ocean
method for both of them, then give a complete walkthrough of
the six. Powerful questions in personal
agility system, especially highlighting the key.
Question, to find what really matters Peter and Maria, then
shared how this framework is not just applicable to individual,
but also applicable to leadership and organizational
agility, and how you can help leaders and teams create
alignment and Trust within an organization.
I really enjoyed my conversation with both Peter and Maria
learning about personal agility system, the six powerful
questions and how we can use them to achieve what really
matters in our lives. Not to mention that, this is my
first episode having more than one guest at one time.
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Hello everyone. Welcome back to another new
episode of the package. You know, podcast today is very
special for me because this is my first time having two guests
in one episode. So we have Peter Stevens here
and Maria materially both. Actually co-founder of the
personal agility Institute, they have a mission to help people
and organizations to align, what they do with, what really
matters to become, who they want to be and achieve.
What they want to achieve. So today, we'll be talking a lot
about this personal agility, what is this concept?
All about how it helps people. And maybe you can also implement
it in your life. So Peter Maria, really looking
forward to this conversation. So, hopefully, we have a great
conversation today. Yeah, thank you, Henry.
We're excited to be here. Yes.
Thank you. We're delighted to be here.
So I always tried in the beginning to ask my guests to
share your courage, your knee, or any highlights turning points
in your career. I guess we can take turns As for
you to spend, maybe one or two minutes to share your journey so
far Maria. Ladies first, my background
started actually start working. When I was 15 and work three
jobs to pay my way through college.
One of those jobs, actually got me into the professional it
world. So I started working at
caterpillar Incorporated Fortune 100 company managing some IT
projects using Six Sigma that was my first exposure to
Something. In the agile Rel, we were always
looking at streamlining, the process has increasing
efficiencies I went on to work at State Farm Insurance
corporate headquarters. Is in their Systems, Technology
Department. That's why I was managing about
five million dollar projects telling people twice my AIDS.
When we need in Milestones done, it felt a lot overwhelming.
I really realized I was really good at project management.
We started using traditional project management though with a
background in lean Six Sigma was able to streamline the
processes, reduce the inefficiencies in the project,
on the Enterprise server, release windows and Unix server.
Upgrades are able to go from two releases, two, three releases a
year, streamline the projects, or we could offshore Or an
Outsource, some of the work to other teams free up, our on-site
people from more strategic work and save the company. 1.5
million passive residual cost savings every year, and then
began to explore using scrum as a framework on many projects.
So how incredibly efficient and effective that was long.
The journey decided to get more into coaching and training and
discovered. I loved it over the years.
Started exploring agile outside of it.
What can you add Gillette marketing?
I co-founded the agile marketing Academy.
Some of the first companies that we worked with we've got some
incredible results 300% increase revenue and six months.
Seven hundred eighty percent increase Revenue in a year from
their realize, we're on to something here, lunch to case
study program. The first person that invested
five thousand returned over 30,000 dollars on their first
agile marketing campaign and we continue to explore ads outside
of it. That's where Peter and I
connected I started looking at this concept of agile peed in
your life to do more of what matters and that's her personal
agility really began to Grow as we began working together in the
industry. So it's absolutely incredible to
see the results. People, get with agile.
I love sharing these Concepts, strategies specific Frame Works
with people and just helping them work better, and live
better. Thanks Maria.
Olivia Peter. Okay, so for me, it's funny my
voice. I think starts in high school.
When I was an exchange student to France, somehow my mom
passed, her love of French on to be at my revenge was becoming an
exchange student, a couple years later, I'd finished University.
I said, he computer science. I went to work for this little
company called Microsoft, which no one had heard of at the time,
but you've probably heard his have in the meantime, spent
three years there, I, which point the calling to France kind
of started ringing in my ear again, and I decided to come on
a European Vacation. Which led me to learn German and
moved to Switzerland. Switzerland is one of those
places where if you survive your first six months, you're never
going to want to leave. I think it took me a little bit
longer than six months. But really I decided to stay
here and I've been there ever since my journey took me through
a variety of things including system management while I was
doing that, this is 1993. I kind of discovered scrum
Without Really knowing it. And that's kind of interesting
because Jeff Sutherland was creating scrum back that I
didn't really realize what I had done.
But for 10 years after that, I all that my best project.
In fact, sometimes I still do, it was really a great project.
It was the basis of my career, in my business, for quite some
time, thereafter fast forward, quite a bit later.
I stumbled on this book called agile project management with
scrum and I opened it up and it was really life-changing for me,
you know, finally, a way to organize people that made sense
and I found a scrum project. We took the worst project in the
company, made it into the best project in the company and I
never looked back. I've been doing scrum ever
since. So today if you ask me, It's my
day job. I still say that I'm a certified
scrum. Trainer, I take exactly the same
thing. Fact, that's how we met is
because we were both scrum trainers.
We first met through the community and then connected a
bit later at a conference around scrum and so agility has been
center of my life since 2006 2008.
It's been a calling for me and personal agility is a
continuation of that Voyage. Thanks for sharing both of your
stories. Really interesting.
Both of you actually came from different backgrounds but
actually met through, Common interest, which is age.
Alright, so today we are not going to talk a gel in a sense
of age, our project management or agile methodology, but more
about applying a gel or agility here to your personal life and
maybe initially to personal life, then maybe we can talk
about how to apply them to organization.
But tell me more about personal agility concept from my
conversation with you before this actually Peter started out
with this concept earlier, right.
So maybe Peter can you tell us more about how did you come up
with this concept and what kind of problems did you see back
then? Okay, so as I told you I
discovered scrum and decided, I wanted to be a scrum trainer.
I eventually became a certified scrum trainer and I was
basically running a sole proprietorship with a couple of
people in orbit around me kind of helping me out.
After about four years of this, I realized the business was
going good but I was working like crazy.
It was going good, but I didn't feel like I was making progress.
I felt like the wheel was just kind of spinning over and over.
I'd been trying things like personal kanban, or desktop
kanban or the Pomodoro method. I tried Doing things like that
and somehow they weren't helping.
And then, one day I said, wait a minute, you're a scrum trainer.
Why don't you try doing scrum? I think what a radical concept
there were reasons that speak for it.
Nor reasons to said, maybe this won't work, but I thought I'd
give it a try and experiment. One of the things that I
realized, first of all, the problem wasn't limiting my work
in progress. So you hear a lot of people say
literature work in progress, so this is good advice.
I don't disagree with it, okay? But the problem is work in
progress is about what you're doing, but the other thing
you've got to pay attention to is your backlog.
A list of things to do and that was really my problem.
My backlog was endless, no matter how much I got done.
There was always something coming in to replace it.
And so I finished every week exhausted and I just didn't feel
like I was making any progress. This kind of led me to start
reflecting a bit more not just on the work that I did.
But why did it matter? And, in fact, it took about
maybe three months to find this question.
What really matters, a colleague of mine talked about the
Eisenhower method was urgent and what's important much, much
later, we discovered the question It makes you happy,
another colleague of mine. I was sharing with this talking
about productivity and impact and he says, you need something
more profound than that. The question that came out of
that was what really matters by the end of about six months.
So, we're now talking October and November of 2016.
The basics of personal agility were kind of coming into place.
This is where Maria, and I met each other at a conference.
At the time, it was known as scrum de Portugal today.
That's grown into experience agile in the world agility form.
So I had a brief chat with Maria and said, Marie, I think I'm
Something there and I was really intrigued by her concept of a
child marketing because I realized that she was doing
something very similar. I thought maybe a job marketing,
could be helpful and I thought yeah, whatever.
So let's see where this leads so we met again at the scrum
Gathering and we sat down for half an hour to talk about what
I was doing. I asked her question at the
center of everything which is what really matters to you, and
she thought that was kind of the first iteration, which was about
the things that she was doing in the people.
She was with and what she was trying to accomplish.
I'll let her tell the full Details of it, but she realized
that what really mattered to her or what needed to matter to her
wasn't on her radar screen. At that point, she says, Peter,
you need to learn about marketing because this could
help millions of people. And if you want to reach
millions of people, you got to learn about marketing.
Well, let Maria tell the story about marketing because this was
really the birth of moment for the personal agility Institute,
that was personal agility, which kind of started here and took
shape over the course of about six months.
And then there's the personal agility Institute, which is kind
of, taking this idea. And realizing that it's
important, It enough and then sharing it with the world.
So at this point, I think I'll pass the Talking Stick to Maria
and say, how do we go from this cute little idea to The
Institute and maybe something that could change the world.
Yeah, thank you. Peter.
I remember when we were talking and Lisbon Portugal that first
time you're saying, hey, Marie, I'd love to get your thoughts on
this. I just finished my angel
marketing presentations, I could you take a look, I've been doing
something, I think I'm on to something.
I remember just being like, Oh yeah, Peter oh yeah, of course,
Angela work in your personal life.
Yeah, everyone knows that like, of course.
Yeah, that's great. I don't remember really
listening. I don't remember it.
Really sinking in exactly how impactful this concept was over
the years. I've applied agile, my life to
achieve so many incredible things.
I remember it works. It's very effective.
Active though, I had the common challenge that a lot of teams,
have the classic challenge, the sustainable pace.
And so you can apply agile in your life and I did and I was
achieving all kinds of things, but it was not at a sustainable
pace. And I realized that the way that
agile teams struggle with it when you apply it in your life,
it's easy to struggle with that as well.
And so when Peter and I reconnected in Munich Germany, a
couple weeks later, I remember sitting in the lobby of the
Westin Grand in Munich at the scrum Gathering, Sorry, I'd love
to get your thoughts one more time as he asked me that core
question, what really matters that time?
I actually heard him. I actually thought about that in
my context and I remember thinking, of course, this is
really powerful and I was like, what matters to me?
Freedom of flexibility. I've been traveling the world
and had always want to get out of that 9 to 5 job office
started. My own consulting company had
that freedom, but that was really lonely.
And I realized that what really mattered was also like
meaningful conversations and relationships with people that
matter. Read throughout this life.
I was like, wow, that's something that really matters to
me. Because sometimes when you
travel every day every week, you don't really see those people
from day-to-day, also quality and brand.
That's so important to me. And I was like, oh yeah, I know
what matters to me, Peter. But then I realized that there
was something that didn't even hit my radar.
And in fact, nothing that mattered really mattered at all
without this other item and that was my health.
My health had been so challenged because after I left my glass
Consulting engagement in, Go. I literally started traveling
the world for five years with no home, just City to City Country
to country while that was helping me achieve.
These other goals that I thought mattered my health completely
tanked and I realized I couldn't enjoy anything.
If I didn't have my help, you got so bad that I ended up in
the hospital in and out of the hospital in a wheelchair for a
year. I couldn't walk.
It was so severe that I realized I had to completely shift my
life. Having that core question.
What really matters? Help me to do that.
I put held as the Over one thing on my priorities map, and
started completely re navigating the lens at which I looked
through life. And I've been using personal
Julie, ever since, and have been so incredibly passionate about
helping, share this concept of the world, and working with
Peter helped. Make this framework available
for the world. Wow, thank you for sharing such
beautiful story when I listen to both of you explaining it.
I can see literally myself. Maybe following you from this
bun to Munich, seeing your life journey and how you implement it
in your life. It's really fascinating.
So, for people to actually Get the gist of this personality.
After all your journey through life and now coming up with this
institute, can you maybe tell us like the elevator pitch.
What is actually personal agility system for me.
The personal agility is a simple coaching based framework to
align what you do with what really matters.
You know. We can explain the core of it in
five minutes. It's really just six questions
or the core of it is six questions.
There are other things that you can build on coaching.
Based, what we do is we use the tools of coaching to help you
figure. Figure out what really matters
and connect what you do with what really matters.
So this is where alignment comes.
In the first alignment is you with yourself, one of the things
that we discovered along the way, the kind of emerged is the
same techniques that you can use with yourself.
That is asking powerful questions and using them to make
sense of the situation. You can apply them with the
people around you. You can ask powerful questions
to your manager, as you can ask powerful questions to your
stakeholders, you can ask powerful questions to your
customers and all sorts of amazing things.
Then when you do because a powerful question is an
invitation to think the start of a powerful conversation.
This is where personal agility took on its character as a
leadership framework. So we could just as easily say
personal agility is a simple leadership framework to help you
create alignment around what really matters.
This is what's happened with our case studies.
We find some very personal case studies but we've also found
cases of startups achieving their profitability goals of
their valuation goals. We've seen companies avoiding
bankruptcy, we vote. All kinds of people getting
their life. Sorted out what really matters
question and the techniques for creating alignment have proved
to be really powerful. That's what our book is about,
and this is what the personal agility system is about Maria.
Would you like to add something to that?
Did I miss anything important that was phenomenal?
Peter, I really feel that being able to see the application of
this framework and individual context, and the business
context. What's been incredibly
impressive, is that the versatility of the application
So, before we actually go into these powerful coaching
questions, what you mentioned as six powerful questions.
Actually, when I read the juice of the book, I kind of stumbled
into this life, is the ocean metaphor.
I know, like, we could in the beginning, your intro, about
your journey, but maybe you can walk us through about this
metaphor for people to actually sink in and look at their life.
Using this metaphor may be either you marry of Peter can
narrate. What is this?
Life is the ocean metaphor. Yeah.
So several years ago, I had invited Peter to join me on
agile marketing Crews that we were doing.
Basically it was just a group of 400 marketers coming together as
coordinating. A group of ten, cabins who
doesn't love a conference on a cruise ship and so, Peter flew
over from Switzerland with his wife, and they joined us as we
left. The port and set sail for
several days to some fancy Caribbean islands.
There's one morning that Peter was sitting outside the coffee
shop, and he saw the screen that they had.
That had the tracking of Our destination and our journey so
far, you'll see the same thing on airplanes.
It was marveling how when you look at this journey, you could
kind of see an indicator where you've been and where you're
going. As we were talking about this,
we were realizing, this is a great metaphor for your life.
We have, where we've been, we have an idea of the destination
but then we realized that you could get blown off course.
And so, where we intend to go is not always where we go.
When you look at a goal that you set or an ambition or dream that
you've had, look at parents for Sample, you end up having a
child or a couple of children and then they become your world
and you're so concerned about helping them.
A lot of times, we forget about ourselves, putting other people
in front of our own well-being, our own goals, our own dreams.
And yes, we care for our family. But if you don't take care of
yourself first, how can you be your best for everyone else?
And so it's important and it's okay to prioritize your own
health to prioritize the things that make you happy because then
that is an uplift for everyone else around you.
And so we realize that while you have this long Longer term goal
or destination. You're trying to get to.
We often get blown off course. Personal jewelry is very kind of
framework if you get blown off course.
It's okay. Just recognize that you've been
blown off course, and get back, on course.
So we often refer to the destination of Jamaica because
that was one of our destinations on the cruise ship.
Yes. Actually, we were sailing to and
I came up with a metaphor, that's why it was Jamaica and
not someplace else. Yes.
It's so we talked about, you know, where is your Jamaica?
Where is the destination you want to get to?
And often times, we may get so rolled up in the busyness of
life that we miss getting that progress toward our longer-term
goals so we don't want to lose sight of Jamaica.
We want to be able to keep sight of that.
Personal Julie system really is helpful in helping you visualize
and identify those longer-term goals.
Also while not losing sight of the shorter-term initiatives and
helping you maintain on your course.
Even if you get blown off, course to get back on course
toward that destination. I really love that metaphor
actually because when I see myself as well and having
listened to your journey as well, I could resonate with some
of the challenges that I'm also experiencing, for example, like
Peter said, unless back luck. Yeah, I mean, maybe we can be
efficient and execute tasks, or with us, but yeah, the backlog
seems to be endless. You know, it's never ending and
tomorrow. There's another huge amount of
backlogs that I need to do. And Maria saying about
sustainable Pace, we have that many backlogs.
Of course, we seem to have the energy to actually execute all
those things. Is it sustainable over the long
Term period. We don't know, right?
That's why. I think I love this metaphor to
seek. Where is your Jamaica?
So, where is the destination that you want to go?
Maybe using me, as the target coaching?
Can you walk us through the six powerful questions that you have
in this personal agility? So let me take a shot at.
I have to say Maria is a great coach and it's her coaching
skills that have really brought the first really compelling case
studies to the surface. We actually start this kind of a
question 0, which is, why do you want to do personal agility?
What's the change? What you're trying to achieve or
what's the state that you're trying to achieve?
We think of Jamaica is the destination.
So, having some clarity as to what your destination is, what's
this important goal that you're trying to achieve or state that
you're trying to maintain, this Clarity can be really helpful
when we get to leadership, will talk about how you can use this
notion of Jamaica. The first question is, what
really matters. So if we come back to our
navigation metaphor today, we use the GPS before.
There was GPS and radio navigation, we navigated by the
Stars. You had the pole star in the
north. You have the Southern Cross in
the South. You had Orion's Belt that was
going around the equator. You know what time does this
Orion's Belt come up or go down? Where is the North Star?
How high in the sky? It is knowing what time it is
and kind of figure out where you are.
So the navigation Stars they help you take a fix and
understand what you're going. So the first question is what
really matters the first time you ask it, it's going to be a
really powerful question because you may not know and it may even
take you a while to really come up with the right answers.
I mean, think of Maria's example.
She thought she knew and then she thought about it, she kind
of the Sarika moment actually. Okay this is what really matters
and this led to her making big changes in her life and that by
the way, is a concept which scales to any size organization
once you get clarity on what matters you get, everyone
pointing in the right direction and you can start moving
forward. Once you've got that, then the
question is, were kind of a reminder of what you care about.
Just kind of setting the stage for setting the frame, then you
go on to the next question. Which is, what did you get done
last week? How have you been spending?
During your time, this is like looking at that trail of
breadcrumbs, it'll think henslin Gradle going through the forest
leaving a trail of breadcrumbs so they can find their way back.
That trail of breadcrumbs not only shows you where you came
from but it also gives you a hint about where you're going.
So for instance Maria realize that my health is really
important. You look at what you did, what
have I done for my health in the last week?
Actually nothing. So what does that mean for my
health? Going forward?
We got a course. We say we want to go to Jamaica
but actually we're heading towards Antarctica right now.
Wait a minute. Where's Oh, I tried to because
their Wares Jamaica, I should make his about 90 degrees to the
right. So what do we do?
Moving forward, we're going to start changing how we use our
time. So this comes to the, what do
you do with your backlog? The first thing is, what's on
your backlog, what could you do? You notice how we use the word,
what could you do, rather than, what do I have to do, or what
must get done, or things like that?
What does my spouse significant other manager?
Whoever telling me has to get done, these are possibilities
now. Why are they possibilities?
Simple reality, is you got too much to do so.
You're not going to be able to do everything and you're
certainly not going to be able to do everything this week.
So the more interesting question is of all the things you could
do, what are you going to do this week?
That's what the next two questions are about.
Now remember Eisenhower, you know, Eisenhower was a former
Army, general commanded, the Allies in World War Two, When
The War became president, he talked about was urgent.
And what's important, there's a third element at that we've
added which is what's going to make me.
Happy governments, don't really care, what makes you happy, but
they care about what's urgent and important.
Okay, so what we say, well, first is, what could you do,
what side your backlog. Let's look at those things on
the backlog. What's important, what's urgent?
What's going to make you happy? Eisenhower was in a very
interesting position as president or as general the
stuff that he doesn't have time for, he can delegate, but you
and I in our daily lives that you can't delegate the work of
your life. This is where you can either
actively make choices, or you can let the Winds of Fate.
Make the choices for you, but at the end of the week, some things
aren't going to get done. And some things are going to get
done. Maybe some things are going to
get done. This is we're getting
intentional about how you use your time.
Gets to be important of all the things I could do, what's
urgent, what's important? What's going to make me happy?
And this is the next question. What I really want to get done
this week and so this is like setting a course I'm setting a
course, which I think is going to take me to Jamaica.
This is what you focus on. So as you kind of go through the
week, we've got this week column, which is the list of
things. What you want to get done this
week in scrum, that's what you expect to get done in personal
agility. This is what you're going to
come back to when you get blown off course.
Because the problem is now now especially with covid, but even
before covid life happens, faster than you can plan.
So your son walks in and he's got a skinned knee.
Can you tell him to go away? Maybe I'll some father's you
never know. Moms would never send their kids
away. On the other hand.
Your boss comes in, at your customer comes in calls the
phone. I need you to do something right
away. Are you going to say no sooner
or later? That gets to be a much tougher
choice. And even though you've set this
course, here's this heavy cross wind blowing you off course.
So what do you do? Well, you deal with it and you
get it done. You do what you have to do and
then you celebrate it. What did I get done?
You celebrate. Whatever.
You got done even though this was different than what you set
out to do. Hey, that boat is still
floating. This is where we talk about
storms. Storms, blow you off course.
Rumor has it. There were pirates in the
Caribbean. They can do all kinds of wild
and crazy things to your course. So you deal with, you got to
have to do when you get back a moment to do what you want to be
doing, or what you care about, you come back to that stuff that
you put on your this week column or your today column.
And so, we're using our short list of things to do, too.
Get us back. On course when we get blown off
course to go through the we can you get things done?
Some of the things with things, you'd planned at the beginning
of the week and some of the things were things that came up
and then you get to the end of the week and you celebrate what
you get done. Okay?
We call this celebrate and shoes, celebrate.
What you got done before, choose what you want to do, moving
forward, that boat is somewhere out in the ocean.
You've made some progress. Maybe you're closer to Jamaica
at the end of the week that you were at the beginning, but maybe
not. And maybe you still care about
Jamaica, and maybe you've decided to set a new course but
the Idea is to be intentional aware of where you're going.
Let's go through the questions. First one is what really
matters. It's like, it is what I get done
last week which is the celebration part.
The next one is, what could I do this week?
The one after that is of those things was urgent.
What's important or what's going to make you happy of those
things? Which ones do I really want to
get done this week? And those are five questions to
kind of help you navigate through life.
Now, some of you are counting and say, wait a minute, where's
the sixth question? Maria, would you like to take
the six question? Yeah, what we've realized is
that there is a need for sometimes taking a step back and
look at your situation and saying.
If I could do this myself I would have already had it done
by now and maybe just maybe you might need to ask for help.
So the sixth question is, who can help one of the things that
I've realized over the last couple of years, you can get
almost anything done. If you get stuck by either
asking someone for help someone, that's a friend, a family
member, someone who you can share the vision or just share
the situation and say, hey, can you Help me.
They may say, yes, they may say no or we have an incredible
opportunity to hire Freelancers off the internet today.
You look at Craigslist, you look at Angie's List, you look at
freelancer websites, like there's so many freelance or
websites. You could probably either just
ask for help from someone else who might care, or delegate or
Outsource, or hire someone, that, could assist you with what
it is. You're stuck on because chances
are, if you can't get through that roadblock, if you can get
through that today, you might have the same roadblock a week.
Later, that same roadblock might be there.
A month later and now we've completely stopped our progress
toward our goal. The couple of the things that
Peter mentioned, that I really want to highlight that were
impactful for me was there's one day where he was talking about
the idea of asking what's urgent.
And the idea is we want to actually start to work on the
important things before they become urgent.
That was a game-changer for me to be able to realize, wait a
minute. If you have a lot of things that
are Urgent, why are they becoming urgent?
So if we can sprinkle in kind of Salt Bay in some of these Things
that along the way are important and get to them before they hit
that point of urgency. Now, we could start to get
better Rhythm of the way that we're working, the flow that we
have. And then we added in that
question a little bit later of, what would make you happy that
wasn't even on my radar until recently, I remember was
actually about five years ago, I was talking to Alistair cockburn
and he's become a good friend over the years.
Many people know him. As one of the co-authors of the
agile Manifesto. We are talking about goals and
setting goals for the new year. And I remember he was like,
where's your happiness or joy? Where's joy in your goals and
had money goals? I had Fame goals, I had
achievement goals, I was like, I don't understand the question.
I literally did not even understand.
The question of what brings me joy in Life or what makes me
happy because I was so focused on achieving things.
But what I've realized is that even if you use agile to get
things done, more effectively achieve those goals faster.
Sometimes, there can be an emptiness after achieving goals.
Really think is profound about personal agility, is it helps
you really take that step back and look at happiness and
fulfillment. How do I feel about the things I
got done? And so there's so much more
meaning behind what you've achieved when you take that time
to celebrate and choose and see, wow!
I got more done than I thought, or oh, wow, look at this.
You can actually make those better decisions of where you
want to go based on what you've done and it all really comes
together in a very impactful way.
Thanks for explaining all this. These six powerful questions
concept really powerful. In my view, I want to go back to
the first question which I think is really important to
kick-start this thinking process.
This one quote that probably, I'll read it first to let it
sink because I think it's really important for us to look back
and reflect, right? So the court says that if time
is your most valuable currency than how you spend your time,
how you ought to spend your time and how you want to spend your
time, all actually give insights into what really matters to you.
I This is really a powerful statement as well to actually
look back and think what actually matters to us because
how you actually spend your time actually explains what matters
to you. Maybe you can dive a little bit
deeper here. How should people actually look
for? What really matters to them.
So any kind of powerful techniques to find out what
really people want or how about if people have both Jamaica,
Paris, Europe, whatever. Yeah, so when we look at the
question of what really matters, there's a couple of Weights that
you can begin here. Sometimes it might be clear, you
might know what matters, right? Some categories that tend to
emerge some common things. We see are people that care
about their health or Fitness relationships.
People, their life family children, looking at their
career, advancing their career goals, or starting a business or
maybe some hobby. Something they've always wanted
to Achieve Financial Freedom. These are things that we tend to
see over and over. Sometimes people know that they
say, hey, this is important to me, this is important.
This is important to me, but sometimes it might not be so
obvious. So if that's the case, we With
the question of what did you do last week, just like, Peter just
mentioned. Apparently, what you did last
week is What mattered to you, because that's what you did.
Some people might say, well, no, I didn't do what I wanted to do
last week. Okay, well, that's Nick.
That too is a valuable Insight so great that still tells us
something. So if we start with the
breadcrumb trail, we might start with okay?
What really matters and people might know they might list it
off the other day. I was bringing someone through
personal Julie system you have Add the first thing, maybe the
second thing. But then kind of got stomped.
I'm like hey let's look at what you did last week as we started
creating the breadcrumb trail, we started to notice some themes
that emerged as we can look at those things and say hey which
of these things really do matter to you that you want to matter
and are there any things that aren't where you want to spend
your time so we can kind of see empirically.
We are what you've done and if you continue that if you carbon
copy last week, till next week, last month, till next month,
last year, to next year, will you be where you want to?
Fast forward a year from now, and if the answer is no, then
what do you want to do differently?
What do you want to matter? Sometimes people might have
things on the parties map that really matter.
We recommend limiting this to three or four things not more.
Because if everything matters, the nothing matters.
That's a quote that Peter and I always like to use because
there's so much that we could do and there's so many
possibilities that you might make it into progress in
multiple areas, but not a mild progress in any one area.
So We tend to see when people have more than three or four,
those other items don't really get their attention or they're
spread so thin they don't really make the progress, they
ultimately want and desire so we can start looking at what you
think matters and look at what you've done.
You look at what themes emerge and then once you start going
through your parties map, you might say, hey, I noticed this
one thing isn't getting as much attention.
Does this really matter to me? Either do I want to spend more
attention toward it, or do I want to change?
What really matters is that actually not as important as I
say. I would just add to that.
One of the things you'll notice is these patterns repeat
themselves, they scale. Or if you want to get fancy, you
could say they have fractal. You see them at the personal
level, the team level the organization level, you know,
it's like this question of what really matters.
And what are we trying to work on?
How many things are we working on in parallel too many things
matter and we don't make any progress on anything.
Most companies that I've visited.
They've all got way too many initiatives going to many things
matter. So nothing matters in their
progress comes to a crawl. But they saying yes to this.
Later to, that is one of the deepest challenges of personal
agility or any other form of agility any level.
Because they don't Focus means saying, yes, to this saying
later to that, we're not going to say no, because we won't even
talk about how difficult it is to say no, but just getting us
to focus on a couple of small things, this proved to be very
powerful Concepts that you can scale really up and down your
organization. Not just you as an individual
where it seems very easy to explain and very obvious.
But as I said, all the way up to the entire company, So if I can
maybe recap a little bit what Maria is suggesting.
So sometimes at least out of the year we all make resolutions, we
know what goals we want to do but actually over the time we
actually didn't achieve those. I think one thing that we could
do is actually to do like time audit or what did we do past
week past month past year? And look at themes.
What actually you spent in those time and then from there
actually you can also see which one that you want to prioritize
and which one you actually don't want to do.
So this is also coming back to the concept.
Depth of good habits bad habits, right?
So you also have to choose what things that you want to continue
doing or you want to stop doing. And then at the same time, once
you identify the important things, you should limit it
coming back to the work in progress, limit and maybe what
matters to you? You should also limit it to
three to four so that you actually don't work on too many
things. Having your energy and focus
scattered, and then in the end, maybe it's not maximal impact.
Thanks for sharing this story. I think Peter you add on later
on in the explanation that you can actually use this for other
things outside of personal life. Including the Isolation and
Leadership, maybe let's move into that segment.
So how do you actually use this same technique to improve your
leadership and also your organizational agility?
One technique that I've had a lot of success with you come
into an organization, it could be at any level, you got
stakeholders for purely important people in the company.
But I've also seen it at the board level and the top
management, everybody is passionate about what they do.
Everyone's got their mental model about what's important and
what they want to achieve, some of the they talk about Out
explicitly. One of the things you start to
see is the concept of hidden agendas to stomachs.
I'm not even sure if people intentionally do that, they see
that they have goals that they want to achieve.
But they don't have agreement across the organization on these
goals. And so they fight about these
things without knowing how to do it.
What I say, we want to get an organization to do a turnaround
or a project to do a turnaround or we've got issues for me.
The first thing to do is listen, I would actually go and kind of
identify who are the people who I need to talk to Stakeholders
in the broadest sense, not just important, managers and
customers who can helicopter in and completely change
everything. But also people who are really
doing the work, who really understand the problem?
The idea is to get the whole picture and then you go and you
talk to them about what are we trying to achieve?
Why are we trying to achieve it? What's the outcome?
We're trying to achieve. What's making this difficult?
We can look at this in a motional level.
What are you afraid of? What are you frustrated by?
And we start trying to build this picture at the beginning.
It's like a mosaic you talk to you.
Each person individually and get their version of the picture.
What this does is it helps you identify common themes.
So, like, I had this case, once where I was working with a
start-up, they had some goals which I would describe as change
the world, make life better for our customers and their
customers and another version of it.
Which was, I want to make a lot of money through our exit to a
different people with different focuses because they had
different priorities. When it came to talking about
what to do, they wanted to do different things because they
did not have it. I meant on the priorities, they
had lots of argument about what they should do.
So what we did is we basically help them discover what it is
that they could be. Notice that word could is a
really powerful word because could is an idea that's kind of
floating out there in space. It doesn't really belong to
anyone. Whereas what should we do?
This is the start of an arm wrestling tournament.
We're going to do my thing or your thing.
And one of us is going to lose that actually makes it very
difficult to have a conversation about the real problem.
So we get into talking about what we could do.
What could be important Aunt. And then we start to look around
that we can build a consensus about what really is important
and once we've got this common understanding this consensus on
what really matters. Now it's possible for us to take
decisions and the decisions are all focused in the same way.
So we call this process creating alignment, if the first half of
personal agility is having individual, get their act
together. The second half is about the
interactions. By the way, you may have heard
of this little document, called the agile Manifesto which starts
out talking about individuals and interactions.
They got it right? 100% perfect.
You get your own act together and then, you can start working
on the interactions with the people around.
You, with that, you can create things bigger than yourselves
that your department really becomes a team.
So the basic approach is to facilitate these discussions
around what really matters get agreement on what really
matters. And then it's relatively easy
thing to get an agreement about what to do to achieve our goals
and you get everyone working in the same direction.
I love the way you explained about quote physician Shield
sometimes we as Leaders unconscious.
SLI, what should we do? So, in a way, it is on wrestling
people, right? But instead, when we asked, what
could you do? We expose ourselves to different
options and different possibilities and at the Eddie
can choose which one is the best.
Be the may be true decision-making together or its
maybe based on leadership or maybe some priorities and goals
that we align together. If you could actually drill down
more towards alignment, I think one fact that you quote in the
book as well, you mentioned that less than 10% organization
actually could successfully execute their strategies.
Due to this lack of alignment, maybe you can explore it a bit.
What do you mean by these alignment?
How can we actually create alignment easily inside the
organization? So that quote comes from a
correspondent on Forbes Magazine?
I had stumbled on a quote about alignment.
This is back in 2012, that started working with Steve
Denning on his radical management.
I found this interesting web page that, you know, alignment
is a big problem in organizations.
It's kind of the Holy Grail of organizations.
I thought, wow, that's cool. Two days later, Later.
I went to look for that link again and I couldn't find the
tree because the forest was too big.
There was just so much about how challenging alignment is.
I've come to believe that the reason why alignment is so
challenging is because most organizations first think about
what who does what by when the main objective of a good project
leader is to identify who's going to do what by when the
problem is, the why question, what are we trying to achieve,
what's the outcome? There's nowhere near enough
discussion about that one of the quotes actually.
Came from one of our personal agility, ambassadors guy named
PR nights, who's currently based in Zurich.
He said it his observation coaching is the new management.
We have conversations first about the outcome that we're
trying to achieve and why this is important and then we go from
the outcome to the problem to the solution.
Whereas, the more traditional approach is to dive straight
into the solution, which is really easy to do, what is the
easiest question to answer? Why is really tough and who's
going to buy? It is even tougher but so is
actually, by going after the hard questions first First by
having this clear, understanding of who would, why this is what
enables true alignment. And once you get this alignment,
then it's much, much easier to align themselves around the.
Why just to give you a very short example?
I heard this in the context of SpaceX SpaceX wants to fly to
Mars. So that means we were talking
about doing something or when we're looking at a behavior, we
can say, how does this help us? Get to Mars and if the answer
is, it's helping, then great will do more of it.
If the answer is, it's not helping then we stopped doing
it, right? Out examples of Ellen, Mustang.
Hey guys, no Kingdom building. No.
Channeling communication through the manager.
This is about going to Mars. Okay, this is not about building
your kingdom. That's a let's stay focused on
the mission and by having this clear, understanding of what
really matters, this allows you to give simple guidance to help
people move in the right direction and this was really an
incredible discovery of ours because we initially started
looking at how does personal agility apply for the individual
and when we started seeing the results people are getting
applying the personal agility system.
The context of an organization, it blew us away.
There's one gentleman Walter from Switzerland as well, who
was turning a company around, they were pretty close to going
bankrupt. They were able to ask what
really matters, cut down so many initiatives that they had that
were ongoing and say know what really matters and turn the
entire company around to being in the green and avoiding
bankruptcy. We have a consultant from Denver
Colorado in the u.s. Larry and he was only
complaining about 24% of projects on time 24% is very low
after using the personal The system over 90% of his projects
were being completed on time. We look at Ben Seaver, the CEO
of eBay remedy here in Tampa Bay, Florida.
They had a three-year roadmap. They achieved in one year and
had a thirty. Five million dollar valuation in
just a year and a half and during a global pandemic.
And so when you look at what's possible, we took his entire
leadership, team through using personal agility.
We were training them, and doing coaching calls every week.
It's absolutely incredible to see the results to the bottom
line that businesses get. When they apply this and ask
what really matters and then have that alignment the
organization. So this has really been an
incredible Discovery. A how well personal agility
scales from the individual to the organizational to get real
results in business? Yes, I agree Lima is really
powerful. Once you get to agree on the,
why the common statement of the problem?
Two people can work out on some solutions together but there's
an element of alignment which you also emphasized in the book
which is about trust, right? Because when you want to,
Together, fully aligned. You also have to trust the other
parties. Can you also elaborate a little
bit more about this trust? How is it, so important?
And how we can cultivate trust within organizations may be
using techniques in this personal agility system.
Yeah, so trust is a really interesting word because it
means a lot of things to a lot of different people in the agile
Community. We talked a lot about a trust
culture, Google uses the term psychological safety to mean,
basically, the same thing, this is what I'll call, one of the
basic forms of trust, which we often try to.
To create an agile environment. Now, having said that the closer
you get to the money to the top layers of the company, the
harder it is to achieve that because there's a lot of
competing interests in this. There's a lot of winning and
losing that goes on in the upper floors.
So how do you do that? We talked about a lot of
different kinds of trusts the term that we've actually coined
is what we call alignment trust. Which is basically, I listen to
you, you listen to me and we care about what each other is
saying notice. It doesn't mean that we agree.
But it means that we're listening.
If you go into an organization and you look at the discussions
that they're having either among stakeholders to a project or
even the Border than c-suites, you see how people argue with
each other? They don't even let each other
finish. Each other's sentences where
they get cut off and they start shouting, and what are they
trying to do? They're trying to be heard.
So what do you do? We kind of turn this around and
it's like Judo Jujitsu, you kind of turn it around and the first
thing that you do is you listen to them.
You let them not only finish their sentences, but finish
their thoughts. One of our case studies we will
Lorenzo in Portugal at the time. He was working for a major
consulting company and he says people were practically in tears
because no one ever listen to them before.
I mean we totally agree with the whole issues around
psychological safety and creating that because that makes
it possible to have open and honest conversations about what
the real problems are. One of the first ways, what are
the first steps to achieving? That is what we call alignment,
trust, which is really listening to the people.
That's basically our segment on leadership is teaching people
how to listen. How to ask questions that elicit
real answers but also how to really wait for the end of the
sentence and then make sure oh how I understood you correctly,
kind of like the pilot talking to air traffic control, air,
traffic control, says, Singapore, flight 325, clear for
takeoff, Runway 27 and the pilot response, Singapore, 325 clear
for takeoff, Runway 27, and they get that confirmation that
they've heard each other for airplanes that safety relevant.
So, in the company, this read back this making sure that I've
understood you. This is also say Safety
relevant. But the thing is after you've
listened to the other person, after that person has been able
to finish their sentence, that's the moment where you can start
to say, oh, yeah. Well, and in my experience, we
also need to look at this. Oh, what is that?
Okay, all you got to do is deposit the idea but they've
heard you now, you've gotten the chance to introduce your idea
and that starts a new process of thinking and discussion.
So, this combination of listening, you know, using Code
rather than should this is all kind of a collection of
techniques that we teach to it. For people to have really
constructive conversations at the leadership level, to figure
out what really matters and what are we going to do next?
You're really when you look at trust, it's really the
foundation of so many things. When you look at a dysfunctional
team usually that is missing, right?
And so at the foundation, it's really understanding it.
When you understand what really matters when you're in alignment
that looking go back to that and when you can assume best intent
and reconnect with people, listen for understanding, when
we can assume, Zoom best intent and say, you know what we agreed
upon what really matters. We're both in agreement on that.
There's some misunderstanding here but trusting that someone
else is really just doing the best that they can.
So there must be something misalign there must be something
that's just misunderstood or miscommunicated.
And so when we have that foundational Assumption of best
intent and we have that clear alignment, it really helps that
Foundation of trust to be there so that we can get past those
roadblocks or miscommunications, much faster.
And move on closer toward that goal.
So sometimes I see this listening is counter-intuitive
to trust when people think about trust.
It's like trusting someone who can do the work, get things
done, maybe in a high quality manner so that's how I trust
them. But actually you brought up a
counter intuitive way of also. Exhibiting trust while actually
listening getting that person understood and also at the same
time you also convey your own message.
I think that's also critical. I think that's a really
important point that you just mentioned.
I say I'm going to do something and I actually do it.
We call that commitment. Trust.
I do what I say I'm going to do. That is the basis of everything.
If you say you're going to do something and you don't do it or
better still you say, you're going to do something and then
you go do something else. This undermines the trust.
So let's come back to those interviews.
One of my favorite techniques is, you know, I'm trying to
build a lineman trust. The first thing I do is I look
for a way to build commitment Trust.
First, I'll ask the other person.
Is there anything I can do right away to help us?
Get started. Oh, could you send me a link to
this book? Yeah, sure.
I'll send you the link to the book and then the first thing I
do is send the link to the book that's helpful.
At two levels, what? It gives him the information
that he's asked for, but it's also sent him a message.
I'm trustworthy, okay? I'm going to pay attention to
him and because of that, he's going to be more likely to trust
me and he's also going to be more likely to fill his own
commitments. This very simple tools like this
that you can use to start building If we take this to the
level of agile, teams, one of the big challenges that many
agile teams have is they don't produce something that works
every Sprint. So where are we on commitment
trust? We're nowhere.
And so their poor management that says you told me that all
this was going to get better when we do scrum and it's not
better. Sorry, I'm getting excited but
I'm just doing a role play here. So, one of the things that agile
teams can work on is to say our first goal as an agile team is
to create commitment, Trust. The we say, okay, we're going to
create something that's done and my definition of done is
something you can use in real life test in real life, or
better. Yet tell in real life, so use
test or sell. Not something that you pass on
to the Q&A Department, something you can use something you can
test in real life. They do think SpaceX.
Let's put that rock it up, light it up and see what happens.
That's test in real life, even if it's only a little, tiny bit,
a lot of teams their stakeholders, their managers,
they want the moon tomorrow, and it's hard to resist that
pressure. But even if they Liver a little
bit and they deliver that little bit every two weeks that creates
this commitment. Trust and then all of a sudden,
the pressure goes away. So I know I might not get at
this bread but I can get it next.
French build commitment. Trust.
That would be one of my tips for the road.
So yeah, I mean like I'm also looking back to my own team,
sometimes we run a gel doesn't actually necessarily mean.
We will deliver incremental working product at the end of
the Sprint based on what we commit.
So thanks for reminding. All of us here to actually look
back and how you actually run your sprin, you're on your a
job. I'll also emphasize on the
outcome. So in real life, not just finish
development of finished testing, it has to be deployed in
production. Thank you so much for spending
your time. I think it's really a pleasant
conversation, but we are going to reach the end here.
Normally before I let my guests go actually, I ask this one last
question, which is what I call three technical leadership
wisdom. So today I will get six in total
technical leadership wisdom. So maybe either one of you can
start. What do you want to leave our
listeners here to think about, as a Learning maybe from you or
maybe some kind of gist of your career Journey so far.
You're so looking at three takeaways as a leader.
First thing I would say would be lead by example, so that you can
really maximize your results in agile too.
Often we see leaders say, oh, agile team go, get trained, you
go do the agile, but they don't necessarily get that as well as
a leader. And we've seen time, after time,
when leadership really gets it. That's where huge transformation
happens. There's several different
examples and case studies that we have read, this really is
impactful. So actually understanding agile
and that's why personal ability as a leadership framework.
Is so incredibly important and Lisa Adkins even talks about
this. The benefits you can get as a
leader by understanding concepts, like limiting work in
progress and understanding what it's like to have.
Not a sustainable Pace in your own backlog or priorities map
second. I would say, listen with empathy
and connect with people too often.
We hear the team's the running into roadblocks are trying to
escalate impediments, but nobody's listening.
So if you can truly listen, with empathy, and truly, look for
opportunities to connect with people, and listen for Being
help them feel heard actually follow up on the things that are
in their way. That's going to help your team's
Thrive, but it really does start with yourself as a leader to get
those optimal results in your organization.
And then, third, I would say watch your blind spots.
Your teams often have the answers and you aren't
listening. We see this time and time again
when we go into organizations and I just had this a couple
weeks ago, I doing it on, psych consult the team members, they
know exactly. Where all the bodies are buried.
They know where the inefficiencies are, they know
where the opportunities lie and the leaders are listening.
And so really, to be able to listen to your team's watch
those blind spots that can really make a huge difference.
And the results that you get with your teams in your
organization and help you really lead, by example as an
inspirational leader. So one thing you've already
heard from me, is Hill commitment trust, get good.
At making small promises and delivering on them.
This process increases your credibility and just make your
life so much easier. In fact, if you're an agile team
and you can deliver something that works every Sprint, most of
your problems with the stakeholders just go away if pit
because they're so stunned. We've talked a lot about
listening. I phrase it as listen before you
talk. Ask before you tell, and when
you ask clarifying questions, There's a big difference between
a clarifying, question, and an inquisitive question, or a
confrontational question. There's no such thing as a
healthy debate, debate, drives people in their Corners, it puts
the emphasis on winning rather than the emphasis on coming up
with a good answer. So as I say, listen before you
talk, ask before you tell, and when you ask clarifying
questions, I think the last thing is also something that
you've heard today is remember focus on what really matters.
If everything matters, the nothing matters.
So figure out what really matters and use that kind of as
a guide to help you make decisions about pretty much
everything. But certainly how you use your
time, how your team's use your time, how your companies, use
their time, make sure that what you do is aligned with what
really matters. And if you do, then you will
almost surely become that person or company or product or
whatever that you want to be. I really left how you wrap it
up. I don't know whether it's well
rehearse or not but you wrap it up.
But yeah, you know, emphasizing the most important question.
So what really matters? But where is your job?
Thanks so much for sharing your concept about personal agility
system, really appreciate that for people who want to learn
more about this. I know you are publishing a
book. Where can they find it online?
Maybe you can share a little bit about this.
We are excited to be publishing the book through the business
agility Institute and it will be available on Amazon for purchase
and you can also get a link to that from our website at
personal agility. Institute.org one of the things
I'd like to say we're really excited about the launch because
we're going to be working with With Partners world today is a
network, they need value, and they produce value.
What the Network's can do is they can help each other.
Remember, that question who can help.
So, what we're looking to do with the launch of our book, is
basically help people in their Network and they're helping us
so we could reaching out to our partners asking them for free
gifts, for buyers of the book. Now, we don't have enough free
gifts for all the buyers of the book.
Do we have enough? Free gifts for the first buyers
of the book. We're still building that
network but we've already got some commitments for several
thousand dollars worth of gifts that are worth Two dollars of
each. So the book is probably going to
be around 20 or $30, depending on the version whether it's
Kindle or whether it's hardback or something like that and
they'll probably be some sale prices.
But the key thing is, you spend your twenty or thirty dollars
for a book. Be sure you're the first one
because then you'll be the first one to get a token to claim a
free gift and that free gift could be worth hundreds of
dollars. So, we're really excited about
that Steve doubting. By the way pioneered, this
concept with the age of agile. And so, we appreciate learning
from the Masters Steve Dunham by the way, is also one of three
agile. Thinkers, who has written
Introduction for our book next to Lisa, Adkins and Alistair,
cockburn something that we're very just beyond delighted about
that. We're getting this kind of High
Caliber support. So anyway, the book is available
for another couple weeks, as kind of a pre beta test.
Download, for early adopters, who want to participate in the
launch will be taking it off the website.
I think we said the 6th of February.
So, basically a week from Sunday and then after that, the launch
will probably be somewhere between two and three months
later, depending on how the promotional program goes, we're
hoping for something really exciting.
So mark, your And get into the early Reader Program so that you
can participate in this and there's an invitation, you know?
Hey if you're out there hearing this, wow I'm not quite sure
when we're going to be broadcast.
But you know, if someone's out there saying gee I like to
participate in this program would certainly be open to new
participants who are looking to leverage their Network to profit
from the entire network of all of our partners to generate
business Factor them. So this could be a fun thing.
Thanks. Good luck for your launch of the
book and also with your experiment with this network.
Hopefully you get to save people.
Has life and also transform their lives to be more happy and
do more important things. So thanks be then Maria.
Thank you, Henry. They took pleasure to be here.
Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying, right
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