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We settled on three positive 
characteristics that 

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characterize an organization 
that was operating maximal 

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effectiveness, high flow and 
that was value, a clear sense of

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the value that you're 
delivering. 

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Clarity, meaning a sense of 
orientation, awareness of how 

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you fit into the bigger picture 
and flow is the result of having

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a clear sense of value and a lot
of clarity. 

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Then you can get flow in the 
sense of smoothness of action. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya Virawan 

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and you're listening to the 
Technically Journal Podcast, the

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00:00:43,160 --> 00:00:45,880
show where I'll be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders, 

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00:00:46,160 --> 00:00:49,720
practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

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00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:53,960
discuss about their journey, 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our journal. 
Hello, Steve. 

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Hello, Andrew. 
Welcome to the Technical Journal

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Podcast. 
Today we'll be talking about 

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your new book, Flow Engineering 
from IT Revolutions. 

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I'm really excited actually when
I read the book as part of the 

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preparation of this talk. 
So Flow is something that is 

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quite a trending topic these 
days. 

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So many people are talking about
it, how to improve your value 

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stream and things like that. 
So really excited. 

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Welcome to the show. 
Thank you so much, Henry. 

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Yeah. 
Thanks for having me here. 

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All right. 
So Andrew and Steve, so I always

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love to ask my guest to first 
share a little bit more about 

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themselves. 
So if you can maybe mention 

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about highlights or turning 
points that you think we all can

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learn from you, that will be 
great. 

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I've been in tech for a couple 
of decades now. 

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I started in kind of IT and tech
support and work through a bunch

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of different individual 
contributor roles. 

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And Speaking of turning points, 
I would say that DevOps was 

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definitely a turning point for 
me. 

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I was always kind of one of 
those people who was interested 

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in the gaps in the handoffs and 
flow before I really knew that 

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that's what I'd refer to IT as 
nowadays. 

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But another big inflection point
was taking on a role as CTO and 

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and being very responsible for 
end to end delivery and scaling 

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an organization, especially 
working with enterprise clients.

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So kind of put everything to the
test and learned a lot and 

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failed a lot and and brought a 
lot of that into consulting. 

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So that's kind of my path. 
And working backwards, I guess 

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Steve and I met each other three
years ago, Steve at DevOps 

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Enterprise Summit conference 
where he was running a session 

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on Value stream mapping. 
And I asked him for any book 

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recommendations on value stream 
mapping for tech organizations 

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in particular. 
And he we ended up having to 

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write it ourselves because many 
of the books on value stream 

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mapping cover center of gravity 
more focused on the traditional 

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manufacturing space. 
So my background. 

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I had studied engineering, but 
pretty early on decided not very

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interested in a conventional 
career. 

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And so I spent about 15 years as
a Buddhist monk. 

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And so it was during that time 
running meditation Centers for 

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about 10 years. 
But also with my technical 

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background was the head of IT 
for that organization, a global 

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organization for a few years. 
Then over the last 10 years, 

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while I was a monk, I discovered
Salesforce.com as offering free 

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licenses for nonprofits. 
And we had a big federation of 

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lots of nonprofits to me that 
looked like lots of free 

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licenses. 
And so I sort of had this vision

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of I can get free licenses here,
free licensees here, free 

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license here, and integrate the 
whole thing, syndicate some of 

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the code. 
And then all of a sudden we 

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would have some technical 
management infrastructure to 

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manage all of these meditation 
centers, which we were sorely 

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lacking. 
I never actually ended up 

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bringing that to fruition, but 
that led me to choose to focus 

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on Salesforce when I stopped 
being a monk. 

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And so pretty early on, I was a 
Salesforce developer. 

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Pretty early on, I realized 
there were a lot of struggles 

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for the development process in 
Salesforce. 

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They were just a few years into 
even being able to write code on

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the Salesforce platform. 
But nobody was using version 

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control, so there's no history 
of changes. 

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So I would write something, come
back a month later to, you know,

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make an edit, and I'm like, what
is this? 

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Did I write this? 
Did somebody else write this? 

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Has this changed that I just 
forget? 

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There's just so much confusion. 
So I started going deep, digging

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deep, and I had a manager at the
time who encouraged me that we 

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needed CI for the masses. 
We needed all of the Salesforce 

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projects to be able to do things
like this. 

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And I took that Commission very 
seriously and I've ended up 

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being focused on DevOps for 
Salesforce, Kind of breaking 

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ground with that as a new area 
for the last 10 years. 

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Wrote a book, Mastering 
Salesforce DevOps, my first 

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book, and was the first book to 
really speak comprehensively to 

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the Salesforce development life 
cycle. 

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That was about five years ago 
when I transition from the 

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tactical bits, you know, version
control and setting up Jenkins 

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00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:12,280
and running static analysis and 
so forth, to when I went to the 

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DevOps Enterprise Summit, now 
the Enterprise Technology 

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Leadership Summit run by IT 
Revolution. 

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That was what really blew my 
mind for the first time, because

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all of a sudden it was a room 
full of technical people, a big 

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auditorium full of technical 
people. 

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But we had doctor Christina 
Mazlak, the world's leading 

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researcher on burnout there and 
the psychology of this, and then

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the CEOs and the guy who 
overhauled Walmart's IT 

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infrastructure to create an 
event driven system. 

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So it's just all of these big 
thinkers in technology and how 

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teams work Better Together, the 
bridge from technology to 

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business. 
And I just realized this world 

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was much bigger than I had 
appreciated. 

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And so it really, I've been 
delighted to be part of the 

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DevOps community and then 
increasingly also in the last 

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couple of years trying to go 
deep on Lean and become part of 

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the Lean community as well. 
And then six months ago I took 

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on a role as Chief Product 
Officer for a company that 

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builds tooling for Salesforce 
teams and highly regulated 

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industries, Auto Rabbit. 
Thanks for sharing your 

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background story. 
So when you mentioned about not 

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many books covering value stream
mapping for tech world, I think 

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now that you said it, yeah, I 
kind of like agree with that. 

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A lot of probably VSM comes from
the old TPS, right? 

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Toyota Production system or 
manufacturing. 

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A little bit of highlights maybe
in some lean books. 

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But yeah, specifically dedicated
to talk about balustre mapping 

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is probably a bit rare. 
Hey, thank you for being part of

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the technogenal community. 
This show wouldn't be the same 

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00:06:42,720 --> 00:06:46,160
without your ears, and you are 
the reason this show exists. 

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00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:49,920
If you're loving TLJ and want to
see it keep on growing. 

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00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,760
Consider becoming a patron at 
techlegional dot Dev Patron or 

128
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,200
buying me a coffee at 
Techlegional dot Dev Coffee. 

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00:06:59,040 --> 00:07:02,880
Every little bit helps field the
research, editing, and sleepless

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00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:05,880
nights that go into making this 
show the best it can be. 

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00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:09,480
Thanks for being the best 
listeners any podcast could ask 

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00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,560
for. 
And now let's get back to our 

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episode. 
And Speaking of which, both of 

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you have come up with the book 
Flow Engineering. 

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So first of all, right, when I 
read the initial few chapters of

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the book, you actually basically
first came up with the 

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background that a lot of 
problems in the organization 

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comes from scale. 
So when we talk about flow, 

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probably the smaller you are, 
maybe it's not so much of A 

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worry and you actually speak 
about problem of scale in an 

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organization, maybe let's go 
there first about the 

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background. 
So why do you think that flow 

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engineering probably is more 
applicable to kind of like a big

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scale organization? 
Well, one thing that I want to 

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mention, I'll throw to Andrew 
for some of this. 

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But one of the things I I want 
to mention is you know we had 

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the great privilege of as a 
result of working on this book 

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and diving really deep in this 
space, building a relationship 

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with Karen Martin who has 
written kind of the Seminole 

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book on Valley Stream mapping 
back in 2013. 

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And we learned a lot from that 
book And what we're really 

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trying to do with flow 
engineering is kind of make that

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as accessible as possible to an 
audience that we consistently 

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here doesn't have time for 
Valley Stream mapping, can't get

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the buy in for it, can't make 
the space in there doing to step

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away from the work and do the 
mapping and and kind of 

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understand the workflow and 
might struggle to describe it to

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people or get them excited about
something that is largely 

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associated with manufacturing. 
So our effort was really to kind

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of build upon that foundation 
and make this very, very hard to

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say no, to make it very easy for
people to dive in and 

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acknowledging those aspects of 
scale that kind of hold people 

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back from all the things that 
they want to do, whether it's 

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value stream mapping or 
otherwise. 

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But we do touch on three 
specific costs of scale. 

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And one of the things that kind 
of resonated with me in looking 

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at why we incur these costs and 
what sort of happens in 

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organizations is as we scale up,
the distance between everything 

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in the organization kind of 
increases. 

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So the distance between what 
you're doing and what happens 

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down the road, the distance 
between you and the ultimate 

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mission of the company, you are 
kind of long term forecast. 

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You know you have bigger plans, 
bigger impact. 

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In a lot of cases, you're 
physically much further away 

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from people that you have to 
work with, whether that's your 

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colleagues or partners or 
customers. 

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And so this distance creates 
these conditions. 

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But I'll throw to Andrew to run 
over the specific costs that we 

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highlighted because I don't want
to run the mic the entire time. 

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Well, so the three specific 
costs are the cost of 

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disengagement, disorientation 
and distraction. 

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And very early on in Steve and 
my discussions, we settled on 

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three positive characteristics 
that characterize an 

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organization that was operating,
maximal effectiveness, high flow

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and that was value. 
A clear sense of the value that 

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you're delivering, including the
value that your own efforts make

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towards the organization, the 
value of how your product is 

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00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,000
bringing benefit to end 
customers and so forth. 

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Clarity, meaning a sense of 
orientation, awareness of how 

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00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:46,560
you fit into the bigger picture,
what the handoffs look like, 

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00:10:46,560 --> 00:10:48,560
what good looks like and so 
forth. 

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00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:54,040
And flow is the result of having
a clear sense of value and a lot

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00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:56,440
of clarity. 
Then you can get flow in the 

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00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,480
sense of smoothness, of action. 
And when we're coming back to 

195
00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:05,560
the idea of scale, Steve and I 
also quite early on seized on 

196
00:11:05,560 --> 00:11:09,160
flow having two meanings, like 
there's this sense of individual

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00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:12,640
flow, psychological flow state. 
Like Mihai Chick sent Mihai's 

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00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,560
book on flow, that when the 
challenge is well matched to 

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00:11:16,560 --> 00:11:19,640
your capability and you keep 
increasing your capability and 

200
00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,200
the challenge keeps getting 
higher and you, you see people 

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00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:26,120
investing thousands of hours of 
their lives playing video games,

202
00:11:26,160 --> 00:11:28,520
say, why? 
Because they get a sense of 

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00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,080
flow. 
You know, the challenge keeps 

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00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:31,720
going up and they keep getting 
better. 

205
00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:35,280
And there's this natural it, it 
resonates deeply with us. 

206
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,200
We feel like we're doing 
something useful. 

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00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:39,880
So that's individual flow, the 
psychological flow. 

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00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,400
Then there's collective flow. 
And collective flow is the 

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00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,640
handoff from one to another to 
another to another. 

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00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,720
And if you look at these old 
school manufacturing facilities 

211
00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,440
where you've got assembly lines,
there's just literally a flow of

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00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,800
parts. 
And especially if you speed it 

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00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,880
up, you just see this liquid 
like river like stream of 

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00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,280
material and people and so 
forth. 

215
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:03,320
And one of the tricky things in 
the tech world is that 

216
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:07,000
everything we do is invisible. 
And it was a lean conference a 

217
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:11,240
couple of years ago where once 
from the stage and twice in just

218
00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,160
interpersonal interactions. 
I heard people say, people from 

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00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:16,880
traditional manufacturing 
background say, if it's in the 

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00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:20,040
computer, it's hidden. 
If it's in the computer, it's 

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00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,080
hidden because they want 
everything on big boards and 

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00:12:23,080 --> 00:12:27,160
displays and signs and so forth.
And I thought, oh man, we're in 

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00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,400
trouble because if it's in the 
computer, it's hidden. 

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00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:33,120
Like how do we keep oriented? 
How do we get and maintain that 

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00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:36,200
clarity? 
Right now, it is computers that 

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00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,720
enable us to be having this 
conversation across the 

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00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:40,760
Internet. 
Computers enable scale at a 

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00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:42,840
level that was just 
inconceivable previously. 

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That even though you've got 
physical distance and mental 

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00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:48,080
distance and so forth, the 
computers can help patch in and 

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00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:49,840
create the handoffs and so 
forth. 

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00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:53,480
But at the same time, when you 
know, if you and I were sitting 

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00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,880
next to each other on laptops, 
most likely I'm going to be 

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00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,000
working on something totally 
different from what you're 

235
00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:00,920
working on. 
We're in totally different 

236
00:13:00,920 --> 00:13:02,760
worlds. 
And so the default when 

237
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:04,760
everybody's on their own 
computer is that we're in 

238
00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,760
different worlds. 
Whereas if you're in the same 

239
00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:10,160
physical manufacturing facility,
that the physical world itself 

240
00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,400
integrates your minds. 
And so you're integrated around 

241
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,560
the physical reality of, oh, 
there's a mess here and there's 

242
00:13:15,560 --> 00:13:16,840
something that needs to be done 
here. 

243
00:13:16,840 --> 00:13:19,480
And here's a guy coming with a 
request in an order. 

244
00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:21,960
And because you're integrating 
around the physical reality and 

245
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,360
then in the IT world, you can't 
integrate around the physical 

246
00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:26,080
reality. 
So you've got to construct a 

247
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,240
reality that people can 
integrate around. 

248
00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:31,240
And if you don't do that, if you
don't do that well, if you don't

249
00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,560
create an environment where 
people can really see what's 

250
00:13:33,560 --> 00:13:36,400
happening and how they fit into 
the bigger picture, they become 

251
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,280
gradually disengaged. 
And that's where you got the 

252
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:41,880
Gallup organization saying, you 
know, 75% of people in 

253
00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,800
organizations are disengaged or 
actively disengaged. 

254
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,440
And then also if there's just a 
stuff, you know, emails and 

255
00:13:48,560 --> 00:13:51,640
teams messages and Slack 
messages and documents 

256
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,360
everywhere, and so you get 
disoriented. 

257
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,280
It's just more than the human 
mind can handle. 

258
00:13:56,720 --> 00:14:00,000
And I I think even for me, you 
know in the IT world the pace of

259
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,120
notifications and documents, 
sprawl and so forth in my level 

260
00:14:03,120 --> 00:14:06,560
of patience for figuring out 
where everything is has gone 

261
00:14:06,560 --> 00:14:08,400
down, right. 
So you get this disorientation 

262
00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:10,360
where people just don't know 
what's going on and then 

263
00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:13,400
distraction, bigger 
organization, more Co workers, 

264
00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,280
more projects, more people 
pinging you harder to actually 

265
00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:21,440
be in a flow state. 
And so these we describe these 

266
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,880
as the three costs of scale and 
targeting flow engineering to 

267
00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,440
address those. 
Very elaborate answer. 

268
00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,800
So I would say that I have the 
opportunity working in a big 

269
00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:33,800
scaling up kind of a company. 
I could actually see all these 

270
00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:37,040
kind of cause or problems that 
you just mentioned, right this 

271
00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:40,000
orientation, this engagement and
also distractions. 

272
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:42,600
I think in tech world these 
days, destruction is kind of 

273
00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:47,040
like given you know having all 
these chats and meetings and you

274
00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:49,360
know a lot of things that we 
have to take care about. 

275
00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:52,680
And I think in many 
organizations the first approach

276
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,840
when they want to increase their
business value or be it revenue 

277
00:14:56,840 --> 00:15:00,000
or be it more profit or even 
building more products is 

278
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:01,640
actually to add more people, 
right. 

279
00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,480
And over the time they figure 
out, oh, we have so many people,

280
00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:09,120
things seems to be moving slower
interestingly, right. 

281
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:10,680
So it's not as fast as they 
thought. 

282
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,200
And because of that, what they 
do is actually increase 

283
00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:16,800
coordination, the thing that you
mentioned in the book, right. 

284
00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,160
So tell us, why is the danger of
this increasing coordination 

285
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:24,680
when people perceive things 
actually don't work as fast as 

286
00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,960
they thought it would? 
Yeah, I think coordination is 

287
00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:32,000
really a fascinating thing. 
And and I think actually 

288
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,440
building on top of coordination,
collaboration is something 

289
00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,640
that's very interesting as well.
The coordination, the the fact 

290
00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:43,920
that we have all of these people
and inside of each individual, 

291
00:15:44,040 --> 00:15:46,840
they have a representation of 
the system, right? 

292
00:15:46,840 --> 00:15:49,680
They have a representation of 
the most important thing to 

293
00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,760
focus on, the essential 
practices, the most important 

294
00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:59,960
people to talk to, who to go to 
for what, how to prioritize, 

295
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:05,120
what to do in certain scenarios 
that is so distributed and 

296
00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:08,040
different between all 
individuals. 

297
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:10,280
And it's not often reconciled, 
right. 

298
00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:14,040
We don't often sort of step away
from the work to say like how 

299
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:16,680
are you doing, what's your 
biggest challenge right now? 

300
00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,120
And we do some of this in stand 
ups or we're supposed to and we 

301
00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:24,120
end up reporting on status and 
blockers rather than kind of 

302
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,400
converging and coming together 
and we do a little bit of it in 

303
00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:31,640
retros. 
But this is a continuous 

304
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,160
challenge and it happens all 
day, every day. 

305
00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:39,360
And so to kind of address this, 
we do a lot of communicating and

306
00:16:39,360 --> 00:16:43,800
we do a lot of sharing of 
documents and status updates and

307
00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:48,280
pushing and pulling information.
And that all has a significant 

308
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:50,960
cost, right? 
I mean, it really adds to 

309
00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,200
distraction in a lot of cases. 
It can add to disorientation if 

310
00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:57,920
you were thinking in One 
Direction and some information 

311
00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,160
comes in that pulls you in 
another direction. 

312
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,640
And then you know on top of this
coordination idea that we have 

313
00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,079
to kind of converge and all get 
on the same page and maybe we do

314
00:17:07,079 --> 00:17:11,280
big room planning every quarter 
to coordinate everybody. 

315
00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,839
That can happen. 
But we also have to kind of 

316
00:17:13,839 --> 00:17:16,920
converge prior to doing a 
release, right. 

317
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,560
We have to bring everybody 
together. 

318
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,720
We got to bring in marketing and
make sure that they know about 

319
00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:24,839
the thing that's going out. 
And so all this coordination is 

320
00:17:24,839 --> 00:17:27,119
usually very active and 
intensive, right. 

321
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,200
It's like it's hands on. 
It's very manual. 

322
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:33,920
It doesn't really happen by a 
kind of radiating information 

323
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:37,440
that people can just pull and do
their thing and then contribute 

324
00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:40,320
back to the whole. 
It's a very high cost and 

325
00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,880
collaboration is another high 
cost, even more intensive 

326
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,960
because we're talking about 
working actively together, which

327
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:50,000
means it has to be at the same 
time and we have to be very 

328
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:54,200
closely aligned and we're kind 
of passing the baton hand to 

329
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:56,480
hand. 
So I think these are kind of 

330
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,160
unappreciated costs as much as 
they are incredible benefits. 

331
00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,840
You know, we talked about the 
benefits of collaboration, but 

332
00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:07,840
it's not free. 
And the less structure it has, 

333
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,280
the less culture it has to 
support it. 

334
00:18:11,280 --> 00:18:16,440
And protocols and patterns and 
guidelines and principles and 

335
00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,680
just experience of working 
together, rebuild, rapport and 

336
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:24,360
familiarity, it all is much more
difficult. 

337
00:18:24,440 --> 00:18:29,440
So you kind of turn the dial of 
more people and you're incurring

338
00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,000
more cost, but there's more risk
of miscommunication and all of 

339
00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:38,480
these negative consequences. 
There was a research report that

340
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,040
we highlighted in one of the 
early chapter on the cost of 

341
00:18:41,040 --> 00:18:44,880
scale from Microsoft and 
Facebook looking at groups from 

342
00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,240
1 to 32 people and how well they
work together and how much 

343
00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:51,320
effort was expended by each 
individual. 

344
00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:53,760
And they came to the conclusion 
that there was just an enormous 

345
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:58,200
amount of it certainly wasn't 
additive like the 32 people do 

346
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,600
not do the work of 32 people, 
30-2 people do the work of like 

347
00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:03,880
nine people or 12 people, 
something like that. 

348
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,080
And there was a phrase we we 
settled on the book. 

349
00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:10,160
But then nevertheless there are 
net benefits to working together

350
00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,600
as a group. 
But there's this huge hidden 

351
00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:14,600
costs. 
And so the reason like I love to

352
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:17,200
Steve's comment, you know that 
you solve these problems by 

353
00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:18,960
hiring new people. 
I'm sorry it was Henry. 

354
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,640
Henry, you made the point that 
you're solving these problems by

355
00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,600
hiring new people. 
So the organization is scaling 

356
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,880
because you want to do more and 
more and more and you do do more

357
00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:29,680
and you see the benefits of 
scale. 

358
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,440
But there's this profound hidden
cost and beneath the, you know, 

359
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:37,160
whatever 10% per year the 
company is growing, there's just

360
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,560
this profound inefficiency 
that's cropping up. 

361
00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:42,960
And so we settled on the phrase 
that working together is best, 

362
00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,600
but it's not our best work. 
I might be misquoting myself, 

363
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:48,880
but working together is best. 
But it's not our best work. 

364
00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,760
Like we're we're not as well 
coordinated with everybody else.

365
00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:55,720
There's a lot of waiting time, 
handoffs, confusion, lack of 

366
00:19:55,720 --> 00:19:58,040
effort, thinking that somebody 
else is going to do it. 

367
00:19:58,720 --> 00:20:00,640
Yeah. 
So I like that quote, right. 

368
00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:03,000
So working together is best, 
right? 

369
00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,200
But we may not produce the best 
work if your team is not kind of

370
00:20:07,200 --> 00:20:09,280
like highly effective and highly
performing, right? 

371
00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,160
So I think speaking about this 
study, right, I think one thing 

372
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,720
that I also find interesting, in
your book you mentioned this 

373
00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,000
paradox of scale, right? 
So coming back maybe to the 

374
00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:21,320
topic of people getting 
disengaged or maybe the cost of 

375
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,120
scale, so you mentioned that 
individuals effort actually 

376
00:20:24,120 --> 00:20:26,680
declines as the group size 
grows, right? 

377
00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,760
So this is actually also a very 
interesting phenomena for me, 

378
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:31,640
right? 
And maybe that's why many people

379
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,200
are disengaged in a big 
organization rather than a small

380
00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:36,800
organization. 
Or maybe people don't put up 

381
00:20:36,800 --> 00:20:39,720
more in terms of effort. 
So maybe tell us a little bit 

382
00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:43,360
more about this paradox. 
I'll briefly hit that. 

383
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:46,280
It's the same research report, 
and it does highlight what's 

384
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:49,280
known as the Ringleman effect, 
which is that as you get a 

385
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:52,200
larger number of people working 
on something, the effort that 

386
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,200
each person exerts becomes less.
And if you think about a game of

387
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,840
tug of war, if it's you and 
another person playing tug of 

388
00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:03,400
war, you both will apply maximum
effort on the rope as soon as 

389
00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,240
you get a second person. 
The two people are not going to 

390
00:21:06,240 --> 00:21:09,360
be applying quite as much effort
as they would have if you got 10

391
00:21:09,360 --> 00:21:11,280
people there. 
Everybody's pulling a little 

392
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:14,160
bit, right? 
But nobody is pulling nearly as 

393
00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,120
much as if they were just the 
only person on there. 

394
00:21:17,120 --> 00:21:19,400
And then you can literally 
measure the force that they're 

395
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:20,880
exerting on the rope. 
Yeah. 

396
00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,440
So I mean that's great. 
I love that analogy of the of 

397
00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:28,880
the tug of war and I think we 
can see this manifested and and 

398
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,360
it might be a little bit 
counterintuitive, right? 

399
00:21:31,360 --> 00:21:36,200
Because it's not as if people 
just inherently take advantage 

400
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,880
of the system and take an 
opportunity to contribute less. 

401
00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,480
I think what's really happening 
is that there's so much 

402
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,720
complexity that's added when you
add people and there's so much 

403
00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,120
communication overhead and 
collaboration and coordination 

404
00:21:54,120 --> 00:21:57,320
that's happening. 
It all becomes overwhelming. 

405
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:02,360
And you don't want to be pulling
too hard in One Direction when 

406
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,160
you have to be working in 
concert with everybody, right? 

407
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:09,760
I mean, ideally everybody pulls 
the same and exerts the same 

408
00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,560
amount of effort, but it's very 
difficult to know what that is 

409
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:15,800
and it's very difficult to 
actually effectively do this. 

410
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:21,920
And so I think the way that we 
pull from that in the book is 

411
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:27,840
say this is an inevitable cost 
of scale and there are more 

412
00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:32,520
benefits than costs, but because
of the benefit and that we want 

413
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,000
to realize the benefit and we 
don't have a better alternative 

414
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:39,480
than working in groups. 
You know, our best work can be 

415
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,320
done in highly effective teams 
of the right size. 

416
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:48,280
And so we have to do this, but 
there's a big difference between

417
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,720
doing it well and doing it 
poorly. 

418
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:56,440
And it takes intentional 
practice and principles and 

419
00:22:56,440 --> 00:23:02,160
guidance and the right systems 
to enable that effective action.

420
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:06,160
We call it effective collective 
action that gets everybody kind 

421
00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,600
of pulling in the sweet spot in 
their flow state so that we have

422
00:23:10,960 --> 00:23:13,680
individual flow creating 
collective flow. 

423
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,520
Right. 
So the three elements of this 

424
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,880
collective action in your book, 
which also brought up by Andrew 

425
00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:22,880
in the beginning of value, 
clarity and flow, right. 

426
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:26,560
So you hypothesize like with 
this tree in place, right. 

427
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,160
So as the organization's skills,
probably we will see much 

428
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,000
benefit rather than having more 
cost or the tax of having so 

429
00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,120
many people, which probably 
brings us into this flow 

430
00:23:37,120 --> 00:23:38,680
engineering. 
What is actually flow 

431
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:40,160
engineering right in the 1st 
place? 

432
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,160
Many people might know about 
flow, of course, many people 

433
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,640
know about engineering, but flow
engineering is kind of like new 

434
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,240
term. 
So tell us a little bit more 

435
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,440
about this. 
Flow engineering, you know, in 

436
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:56,240
very simple terms, I think is an
effort to share a term that's 

437
00:23:56,240 --> 00:24:01,280
memorable and easily understood 
by folks that doesn't have the 

438
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,400
associations with traditional 
manufacturing that value stream 

439
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:07,600
mapping does. 
For one, because it's more than 

440
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,640
value stream mapping. 
You know, a lot of people, they 

441
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,800
hear value stream mapping and 
they think, oh great, like that 

442
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,600
works for a factory. 
We don't want to be a factory. 

443
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,080
We don't want to work in that 
kind of environment. 

444
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,520
And so we really try to separate
the goal, which is effectively 

445
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:29,840
engineering flow from any 
specific practice, whether 

446
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,720
that's value stream mapping or 
otherwise. 

447
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:36,400
And in our experience with value
stream mapping and as you 

448
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:41,240
practice mapping value streams, 
you really quickly start to 

449
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,120
understand that you can't just 
dive into mapping a value 

450
00:24:44,120 --> 00:24:46,840
stream. 
You know, you have to really 

451
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:50,080
establish a clear direction, you
know a sense of value. 

452
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,360
What are we trying to achieve? 
And then understand the current 

453
00:24:54,360 --> 00:24:58,160
state landscape, which includes 
a value stream. 

454
00:24:58,680 --> 00:25:02,680
But it also includes things like
what other factors are affecting

455
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,080
our performance, What are the 
things that we're struggling 

456
00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,960
with, what is the context of our
current activity? 

457
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:14,680
Because that really factors into
what you notice when you go to 

458
00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:18,040
map a value stream. 
When you go to create this sense

459
00:25:18,120 --> 00:25:22,880
of clarity, understanding this 
information upfront and all 

460
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,560
starting on the same page really
makes a big difference. 

461
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,400
So flow engineering is partially
kind of adding that very 

462
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,960
explicitly into the early stages
of activities. 

463
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,920
So come together and and set a 
clear target. 

464
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,720
But then on the other hand, it's
taking what we learn by mapping 

465
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,600
the value streams and looking at
value streams and looking at 

466
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,440
constraints in the data and 
measurement that we uncover 

467
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:55,800
through mapping and translating 
it into action. 

468
00:25:56,000 --> 00:26:00,160
And that's kind of the second 
part of the equation is it's 

469
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,440
great to find things in a value 
stream. 

470
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:08,240
It's great to find opportunities
and understand to a deeper 

471
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,080
degree what's holding us back 
from Flow, but it's useless if 

472
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:16,160
we don't act on it, right? 
I think we've all kind of been 

473
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:19,480
in a retrospective where, you 
know, we discover all these 

474
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,600
things and then everyone leaves 
saying, OK, we'll try harder 

475
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:26,240
next time, right? 
I think you've always got to 

476
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:30,160
take what you learn and make it 
actionable and make it part of 

477
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:32,920
improving the system going 
forward. 

478
00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:39,800
So that's where we really kind 
of add these explicit practices 

479
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,520
to kind of introduce value 
stream mapping with very little 

480
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,400
initial context necessary to 
keep it very lean and very 

481
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,960
simple and very minimal. 
And then at the end, to really 

482
00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:57,160
drive that value forward and 
ensure that it actually makes a 

483
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:01,760
difference the the road map that
you build with the insights and 

484
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:05,440
the actions that you're 
uncovering during the mapping 

485
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:12,040
takes you all the way through a 
complete program that hopefully 

486
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:13,920
makes a big difference in the 
organization. 

487
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,840
Right. 
So thanks for explaining about 

488
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,880
what is flow engineering. 
Yeah, First of all, it's about 

489
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,800
coming up with a term, right? 
So that we don't always 

490
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:23,840
associate this thing with value 
stream mapping all the time. 

491
00:27:24,120 --> 00:27:26,840
And it's actually a set of 
practice and the way it works 

492
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,080
just like what you elaborate 
just now, I think it sounds like

493
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:33,280
a feedback loop, right. 
So where you actually first know

494
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,000
where you want to go do 
something and currently 

495
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,400
understand how you're doing it, 
what kind of problems, blockers 

496
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,280
and things like that, and then 
set the actions right, just like

497
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:45,080
what you mentioned in the retro,
if we do it properly, right, we 

498
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,840
will do some actions and then 
over the time you kind of like 

499
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:51,760
repeat the cycle again, right. 
So I think this can work at the 

500
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,720
smaller scale, you know, in the 
team level, but also at the 

501
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,320
organization level. 
And I think in your flow 

502
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:00,320
engineering, you have a few 
things that we can do, the 

503
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,560
activities that we can do and 
actually to map this kind of 

504
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,160
feedback loop in the 
organization, maybe tell us a 

505
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:08,720
little bit more in probably 1 by
1, right. 

506
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,800
What are those tools that we can
use in flow engineering? 

507
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,640
The book introduces 5 primary 
maps that are the actual 

508
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,200
execution of the flow 
engineering practice. 

509
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,560
And you mentioned about the idea
of feedback loops. 

510
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,960
We borrowed a lot from the 
principles of cybernetics when 

511
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,240
we're talking about the problems
of scale. 

512
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,480
So cybernetics as a discipline 
in the 20th century spent a lot 

513
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,960
of time trying to understand 
what are general rules that 

514
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,880
would apply to either humans or 
groups of humans or technical 

515
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,880
systems. 
But is basically some scale free

516
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,400
rules, some rules that apply at 
any scale. 

517
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:49,040
And so the idea of setting a 
clear target and you'd mentioned

518
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:53,520
this right, setting a clear 
target, getting clarity on 

519
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,040
what's your current situation, 
what are the gaps and so forth 

520
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:59,280
and then having a feedback loop 
about are we there yet and 

521
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,360
continually adjusting in that 
direction. 

522
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,560
That was the spirit of this. 
So these five mapping exercises,

523
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,240
the first one is really to get 
clarity on the target state. 

524
00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,800
We call it outcome mapping. 
And that really addresses the 

525
00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:14,560
issue of engagement or 
disengagement, opposing 

526
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,720
disengagement. 
You know, I think often 

527
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:21,440
initiatives or directives would 
be set from a higher leadership 

528
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:25,960
imposed to some degree on the 
organization and people are 

529
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,720
asked to participate in that, 
but without fully understanding 

530
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:31,640
either what is the outcome that 
they're supposed to accomplish 

531
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:35,840
or why that matters. 
And just naturally, as human 

532
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:38,480
beings, one of the things that 
interferes with our level of 

533
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,000
engagement is if we don't 
understand why we're doing 

534
00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:44,440
something, now the executives 
who set forth the vision might 

535
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:47,200
understand perfectly why we're 
doing something, but that's not 

536
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,840
going to help the individuals if
they don't internalize that 

537
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,600
themselves. 
And that's the really, you've 

538
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,560
got to span from the psychology 
of whoever's setting the goals 

539
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,320
right to the psychology of the 
individuals who are executing it

540
00:29:59,320 --> 00:30:02,960
And getting that clarity on the 
outcome is the first step. 

541
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,800
And that often is missed if 
people just dive right into 

542
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,040
value stream mapping. 
Value stream mapping we 

543
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:11,400
introduce is the second of these
mapping exercises and that is 

544
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,360
basically to get that clear end 
to end vision of the process, 

545
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,240
the sequence of handoffs that 
generate that are value 

546
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,240
producing. 
And Steve really encouraged us 

547
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:25,880
to take a working backwards 
approach like from the final 

548
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,680
product, what's the step that 
precedes you know what are all 

549
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,200
the value adding steps preceding
delivery of a final product. 

550
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:36,720
The third mapping is dependency 
mapping, which after a lot of 

551
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,800
debate we we settled on just 
it's zooming in, it's taking a 

552
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,360
deep dive view of part of the 
value stream map that is 

553
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:47,120
suspected to be the primary 
bottleneck followed by future 

554
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,760
state mapping which again is a 
value stream mapping exercise, 

555
00:30:49,760 --> 00:30:52,840
but this time envisioning the 
future state and current state 

556
00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:54,960
value stream mapping, future 
state value stream mapping. 

557
00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,000
All of this does resonate with 
prior work on value stream 

558
00:30:58,000 --> 00:30:59,400
mapping. 
One of the things we really 

559
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,600
wanted to do is optimize for 
these people who are not only 

560
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:06,720
busy and struggling to get 
approval to set aside time and 

561
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:08,440
so forth, they're also 
impatient, right? 

562
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:12,240
So how can we break this down in
relatively short exercises, 2 to

563
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:16,720
3 hours to do the value stream 
mapping, identify that the area 

564
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,480
that you think is likely the 
culprit, and then do dependency 

565
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,560
mapping to do a high resolution 
zoom in on that one section. 

566
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:26,720
Understand that better future 
state mapping then is OK With 

567
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:29,080
the understanding we've gained. 
How can we improve that? 

568
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,360
And then you identify a sequence
of improvement activities in the

569
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,760
final map. 
Is flow. 

570
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,320
Rd. mapping is about? 
How do we carry that out? 

571
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,080
What are we going to do to 
actually implement these changes

572
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,720
so it's not just walking away 
and the scattershot approach to,

573
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,480
yeah, making it better? 
And I think what is really 

574
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,280
interesting when you mentioned 
about people getting disengaged 

575
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:51,960
and not understanding what they 
are trying to do or the 

576
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,960
company's trying to do in terms 
of outcome, the clarity, right. 

577
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,360
So I think you kind of like come
up with these tools and uniquely

578
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,720
they are all called maps, right.
So map is like something that we

579
00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:04,560
create so that people get a 
shared understanding. 

580
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,680
So I think that's the key thing 
so that people get the shared 

581
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,240
understanding, know where they 
are going, right. 

582
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,560
And probably the road map also 
tells them that OK, because we 

583
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,960
want to achieve this target, we 
have this plan, everybody gets 

584
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,360
together so that they are 
aligned and maybe yeah, no 

585
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,760
matter what scale they are, they
will get clarity, they know the 

586
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,080
value that they're bringing and 
they also can do it, I mean in 

587
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,080
terms of action, right, do it in
a such a flow kind of a state, 

588
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,120
right. 
So I think really important 

589
00:32:31,120 --> 00:32:34,560
thing maybe if you can from your
experience right, if you can 

590
00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:39,440
share which map actually helps 
people to ramp up the most, 

591
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,720
because so many organizations 
might not have this mapping 

592
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:44,720
exercise. 
But in your experience, probably

593
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,920
which maps that do you think 
gives the biggest impact if 

594
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,080
organization wants to do it in 
the first place? 

595
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Well, this is a good question. 
I like this question. 

596
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:58,040
I think that you know in terms 
of bang for the buck in my 

597
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:02,400
experience and this is part of 
the problem is that value stream

598
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,200
mapping is extremely powerful 
like current state value stream 

599
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,600
mapping. 
Everybody I talk to and every 

600
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:14,920
map that I've ever built with a 
group you find the 20% of what's

601
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:19,640
happening is totally unnecessary
and could go away tomorrow and 

602
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,240
would have no negative impact on
customers. 

603
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,720
It would just make everything 
faster and easier and that's 

604
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:30,920
very high return on investment. 
Like it's remarkable and 

605
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,360
consistent. 
And this is part of the reason 

606
00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:37,400
why people kind of just dive 
right into value stream mapping 

607
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:40,440
because they hear that olives, 
it's fantastic. 

608
00:33:40,760 --> 00:33:44,600
We hear great things about it 
and then they struggle because 

609
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,360
they haven't done the the 
groundwork to understand where 

610
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,640
should we focus on that value 
stream, what level of detail 

611
00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:56,240
would be valuable, what is the 
scope, what's the stream that we

612
00:33:56,240 --> 00:34:00,520
should focus on? 
And so the outcome mapping, it's

613
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,960
absolutely necessary to have 
that level of clarity. 

614
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,440
And we like to say with flow 
engineering, like if everybody 

615
00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,800
knows what is revealed by any of
the maps, they could skip it, 

616
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,199
right? 
If everyone is on the same page 

617
00:34:16,199 --> 00:34:20,120
and everybody has absolute 
clarity on the target outcome, 

618
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,080
the benefits of that, the 
obstacles, and how to proceed, 

619
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:29,159
go ahead and skip it. 
And likewise for everything 

620
00:34:29,159 --> 00:34:30,719
else, right? 
You can skip all the flow 

621
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:32,920
engineering if you already have 
all the answers. 

622
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:36,040
But we find that's never the 
case, right? 

623
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,719
If you ask three different 
people what the most important 

624
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,840
focal point is or where the 
biggest obstacle is or where the

625
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,480
constraint is, you will get 
three different answers. 

626
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:49,159
So we think it's really 
important to start with outcome 

627
00:34:49,159 --> 00:34:53,080
mapping as a foundation. 
But that's another reason why, 

628
00:34:53,400 --> 00:34:57,200
you know, we keep all this very 
minimal, very small scale. 

629
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,160
We're targeting 90 minutes for 
every map. 

630
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,200
And sometimes you can't get 
everything done in 90 minutes, 

631
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,040
but you get so much value for 
that time that it pays for the 

632
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,880
next map and it pays for the 
next session. 

633
00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,960
And that's kind of rather than 
having people try to get by in 

634
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:20,600
for something massive and then 
doing nothing if they fail at 

635
00:35:20,600 --> 00:35:24,400
that, we'd rather make it 
something that fits into the 

636
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,480
spot that they've got for retro,
right? 

637
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,280
Try something different for your
retro, try something different 

638
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,800
for your lunch and learn. 
Try something different for your

639
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:36,560
off site, just to make it very 
easy to say yes and try it out. 

640
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,640
The five maps are interlinked 
with each other and they are 

641
00:35:39,640 --> 00:35:41,800
sequential. 
They each build on the other. 

642
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,840
So value stream mapping is huge 
and outcome mapping as the prior

643
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,720
one because it is critically 
important. 

644
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:52,960
As Steve was saying, we're in 
the space of unknown unknowns 

645
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,360
and we as humans assume we like,
we we have evolved to assume we 

646
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,640
know the reality. 
We substitute our mental models 

647
00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,200
of the world for actually 
directly perceiving reality. 

648
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,560
And so we're continuously acting
as if we know what's going on. 

649
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:08,240
And generally that means we 
ignore all the things we've 

650
00:36:08,240 --> 00:36:11,000
learned to ignore. 
And and where Steve said we've 

651
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,560
got these disparate mental 
models, this aligning and 

652
00:36:14,560 --> 00:36:19,280
creating a coherent, shared 
picture of our disparate mental 

653
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:21,200
models is what we're talking 
about with the mapping. 

654
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,760
And you Henry called out. 
We're using the metaphor of 

655
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:28,400
mapping and we often say the 
mapping is more important than 

656
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,440
the map. 
And so the map is like some 

657
00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,440
final artifact, but it is in the
process of mapping that what 

658
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:37,320
you're actually doing is having 
a visual conversation with the 

659
00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,160
team. 
And as I surface part of my 

660
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:43,400
understanding, I externalize it 
on the map and then you 

661
00:36:43,720 --> 00:36:45,720
internalize that and say, Oh 
yes. 

662
00:36:45,720 --> 00:36:48,680
And then you share your 
understanding and see how that 

663
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,080
map and that fits in. 
And we're able to do it 

664
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,280
collaboratively. 
Digital, you know, digital 

665
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,040
whiteboarding or physical 
whiteboarding, you're able to do

666
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,360
it collaboratively. 
Really, it's a conversation. 

667
00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,320
It's a lining of these mental 
models, and the raw benefit that

668
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:06,520
you get from this implies that 
there was this hidden cost, and 

669
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:07,880
this is the hidden cost of 
scale. 

670
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:10,680
It's this disorientation. 
It's this sort of lack of 

671
00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:14,800
clarity on what's actually going
on that really can only be 

672
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,280
resolved by making an 
intentional effort. 

673
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,880
I like that you emphasize that 
the mapping exercise is actually

674
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:22,240
more important than the map, 
right? 

675
00:37:22,240 --> 00:37:24,480
So that reminds me of this quote
as well. 

676
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:26,640
Right? 
So all maps are wrong, right? 

677
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,400
But some, not all maps, all 
models are wrong, but some are 

678
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:33,200
actually useful, right. 
So I think the key again to get 

679
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,480
the shared understanding between
many people. 

680
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,040
If you have a larger 
organizations, definitely it's 

681
00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:40,840
really, really more difficult to
actually get this shared 

682
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,080
understanding. 
And doing this mapping will 

683
00:37:43,240 --> 00:37:46,800
create a mental model so that 
everyone has aligned mental 

684
00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,760
models so to speak, right. 
So people are more aware of what

685
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,400
is going on in the company and 
what kind of target they want to

686
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,400
achieve. 
So not only the maps, you know, 

687
00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,800
the tools that you give people 
to try out an experiment, but 

688
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,400
you also kind of like give 5 
principles that we need to adopt

689
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,800
or need to be aware of when we 
want to practice this flow 

690
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:09,560
engineering much, much better. 
So I think the principle 

691
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,600
sometimes is also more 
important, because we can be 

692
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,360
given all the tools that you 
know may work right, but 

693
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,280
actually if we execute it 
wrongly, in the wrong spirit 

694
00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,800
right, the tools may not be able
to solve your problem. 

695
00:38:20,800 --> 00:38:23,240
So tell us a little bit more 
about these principles. 

696
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:27,640
I just wanted to quickly talk 
about that you initially said 

697
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,680
all maps are wrong and then 
corrected that all models are 

698
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:32,360
wrong. 
But I think you're also right to

699
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:33,800
say that all maps are wrong, 
right? 

700
00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:35,920
All maps are just a 
representation. 

701
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:41,400
And the only reason that we kind
of settle on any representation 

702
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,440
of what we think of as reality 
is that we all say, OK, well, 

703
00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:47,360
that's good enough detail. 
You know, it's useful enough 

704
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,440
that we can use it. 
It's not so detailed that we get

705
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,600
lost in perfect accuracy and we 
can't actually extract away what

706
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,560
we really care about, right, 
because we might just want to 

707
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:03,000
get to a restaurant. 
But there's diminishing returns 

708
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:05,040
in in perfect detail. 
And this is one of the things 

709
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,000
that I think people really 
struggle with, with Valley 

710
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,560
Stream mapping is they're really
unclear about what the right 

711
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:16,200
level of detail and accuracy is.
And they kind of trip over this 

712
00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:21,200
desire for accuracy and 
precision when all we really 

713
00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:24,520
have to do is find a focal 
point, right? 

714
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,880
We need to take everything that 
we could possibly do and all 

715
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,680
come together and just decide, 
OK, this is the most important 

716
00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:35,360
thing to do. 
And once we accomplish that, we 

717
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,400
can move on to the next thing 
and we'll be way better off than

718
00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:41,840
trying to divide our focus 
across everything that we have 

719
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,680
possibly to do. 
And you know, it could be one 

720
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:49,120
thing, it could be 5 things if 
you've got capacity, but often 

721
00:39:49,120 --> 00:39:53,760
it's 50 things because nobody is
focusing and nobody has that 

722
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,640
level of clarity and 
decisiveness. 

723
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,280
So I I just wanted to mention 
that and I'll, I'll toss back to

724
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,840
you, Andrew, 'cause I thought 
that was interesting and I don't

725
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:04,840
disagree. 
I think that all maps are wrong.

726
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,120
Yeah, yeah, agree. 
And I mean a map is just a 

727
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,360
model, for example. 
So it's totally apropos. 

728
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,600
You know, Henry, you'd asked 
early on about what is flow 

729
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:17,400
engineering? 
And Steve and I, both coming 

730
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:19,800
from technical backgrounds, 
we're familiar with software 

731
00:40:19,800 --> 00:40:23,360
engineering and network 
engineering and the idea that 

732
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,640
everything is a technical 
problem to be solved. 

733
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:29,960
When it comes to flow, either 
individual psychological flow or

734
00:40:29,960 --> 00:40:33,840
team flow handoff and so forth, 
you're working the psychological

735
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,400
environment or sociological 
environment, right? 

736
00:40:36,720 --> 00:40:41,840
These are domains that sometimes
engineers are undereducated on. 

737
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:45,160
So I'd say our book is in the 
same vein as books like Wiring 

738
00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,200
the Winning Organization by Gene
Kim and Steve Spear that are 

739
00:40:48,200 --> 00:40:50,720
talking about social circuitry, 
right? 

740
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:54,680
And helping to use this metaphor
of engineering or social 

741
00:40:54,680 --> 00:41:00,040
circuitry and so forth for all 
of these overly technical minded

742
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:04,720
people to try to make sense of 
the real human challenges that 

743
00:41:04,720 --> 00:41:06,400
we're dealing with in our 
organization. 

744
00:41:06,400 --> 00:41:10,840
So when we talk about this five 
principles like the third part 

745
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,240
of the book is on scaling flow 
engineering. 

746
00:41:13,240 --> 00:41:16,600
So the first part we talk about 
scale and the challenges of 

747
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:17,920
scale. 
The second part we introduce 

748
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:19,440
these five maps. 
The third part of the book is 

749
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:23,000
about scaling flow engineering. 
And when you talk about scaling 

750
00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:26,400
flow engineering, you're wanting
to make sure that you can get an

751
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:28,960
increasing number of people in 
the organization familiar with 

752
00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:34,160
conducting the exercises, but 
also to sustain the value of an 

753
00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:37,840
initial value stream mapping 
exercise and improve flow. 

754
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,600
There are new understandings 
that need to be internalized by 

755
00:41:41,600 --> 00:41:43,200
the team. 
And so Steve and I are big 

756
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:46,520
believers in the power of 
principles as like a real 

757
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:50,360
condensation, like the the pith 
essence of an insight or an 

758
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,080
understanding that people in an 
organization can internalize if 

759
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:56,480
they internalize those 
principles, those principles 

760
00:41:56,640 --> 00:42:00,920
provide wise and reliable 
guidance in a variety of 

761
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,680
situations. 
And so it's a way of enabling 

762
00:42:03,680 --> 00:42:07,520
decentralized action. 
You train people in principles, 

763
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,440
and then those people go off 
into some. 

764
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,760
You never see them again, but 
they're still operating based on

765
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,120
those principles, and the 
principles are still working. 

766
00:42:15,240 --> 00:42:17,760
And that's the magic of 
sociology, right? 

767
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,240
So these five principles, we 
spent a lot of time sifting 

768
00:42:21,240 --> 00:42:24,640
through what's really required 
to make this work and so forth. 

769
00:42:24,720 --> 00:42:27,520
And I I spent some time 
organizing, and eventually I 

770
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,880
couldn't come up with a better 
system than these. 

771
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:32,400
What do we call the five 
principles of Lean? 

772
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:36,120
And these are borrowed from Jim 
Womack and Dan Jones. 

773
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,200
Lean Thinking these books about 
explaining Lean and so they are 

774
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:45,800
the principle of precisely 
specifying value, precisely 

775
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,160
specifying value, very much like
the outcome mapping. 

776
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,000
What is the goal you want to 
accomplish? 

777
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,040
Mapping the value stream and so 
map precisely specifying values 

778
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,680
very closely aligned with 
outcome mapping. 

779
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:58,160
Our first mapping exercise, 
Mapping the value stream is 

780
00:42:58,160 --> 00:43:01,680
basically the second of the 
exercises and then the idea of 

781
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:06,720
creating flow and really aiming 
for what can you do to enable a 

782
00:43:06,720 --> 00:43:11,080
steady continuous flow And and 
that's all never possible 

783
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,480
perfectly but it's basically 
it's an idealized state what 

784
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:19,720
would perfect flow be like. 
But even the idea of taking an 

785
00:43:19,720 --> 00:43:25,320
ideal state as your guiding 
light as your North Star is very

786
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:26,720
powerful. 
Psychologically. 

787
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,880
It doesn't get old, right? 
If you keep working towards 

788
00:43:29,880 --> 00:43:35,080
enabling flow, that's a reliable
North Star, that's a reliable 

789
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:38,120
guidepost GuideStar for ongoing 
improvement. 

790
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,800
Because there's always going to 
be something different that is 

791
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,720
inhibiting that flow. 
And you know, first of all it's 

792
00:43:43,720 --> 00:43:46,560
waiting periods and then it's 
lack of automation, then it's 

793
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:49,720
confusion, then it's multiple, 
you know, too many handoffs and 

794
00:43:49,720 --> 00:43:53,320
blah blah, blah. 
But as you try to create flow, 

795
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,080
you discover what are the 
obstacles. 

796
00:43:56,640 --> 00:43:58,840
Basically is a continuous 
process of discovering 

797
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:00,760
obstacles. 
The fourth of these lean 

798
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:03,360
principles, which we adopted as 
flow engineering principles 

799
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,640
giving credit to the authors, is
enabling pull. 

800
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:10,920
You know this idea which was 
really quite significant from 

801
00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:14,840
the TPS, the Toyota Production 
System, which is really Toyota 

802
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:19,360
has recast that as TPS is the 
thinking people system. 

803
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,840
So they really want people to 
stop saying Toyota Production 

804
00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,760
System, start saying the 
thinking people system to really

805
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:28,880
point to what that means and 
then enabling pull, not push, 

806
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:31,000
right. 
We don't build anything unless 

807
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:32,760
the customers actually requested
it. 

808
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:37,040
And that is that creates this 
most efficient process where 

809
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:42,040
you're not producing more work 
in progress than you can have 

810
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,160
consumed by. 
And so it's consumed by the end 

811
00:44:45,160 --> 00:44:48,120
users, and so it's a 
characteristic of an optimized 

812
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,040
system. 
The final principle is this 

813
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,280
relentless pursuit of 
perfection. 

814
00:44:52,280 --> 00:44:55,600
To quote Lexus, it's continual 
improvement, continual learning,

815
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:58,360
Toyota's motto. 
There is no best. 

816
00:44:58,880 --> 00:45:01,880
There is no best, only better. 
There is no best. 

817
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,360
And that your goal is to do 
better than you were yesterday 

818
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:08,560
and this continual driving. 
Right. 

819
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:11,840
I think in Toyota they also have
this thing called Kaizen, right.

820
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:14,560
So continuous improvement. 
So I think pursuing perfection, 

821
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:18,160
doing the Kaizen being better 
than what you did yesterday is 

822
00:45:18,160 --> 00:45:21,360
really, really important. 
So I like all the principles and

823
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:24,560
I think this can be a good like 
guidepost or mental model that 

824
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:27,680
people should think about 
whenever they are in a current 

825
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,880
situation in the organization, 
first understanding the value, 

826
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:32,280
right, doing the value stream 
mapping. 

827
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,200
Because sometimes in large 
organizations, as people move, 

828
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,000
people come, people go, change 
of leadership, things change. 

829
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:42,280
Whether you realize or don't 
realize, right, things change, 

830
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:45,160
maybe new directions, but not 
everybody in the organization 

831
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:46,920
actually understands what are 
those changes. 

832
00:45:47,240 --> 00:45:49,080
Sometimes even you are just 
given a goal. 

833
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,760
OK, maybe not a goal. 
You're just given a task, hey, 

834
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:53,720
please build this product or 
this feature. 

835
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,840
And you kind of like assume that
that's the right thing to do. 

836
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,640
But sometimes it may not be 
right and you don't understand 

837
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,440
the total outcome. 
Speaking of which, that means 

838
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,200
the leadership role is very 
important here, right? 

839
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,320
Because in order to do all these
principles, conduct this mapping

840
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:10,600
right, you need to get the buy 
in. 

841
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:13,640
You need the people to also 
understand the benefit of doing 

842
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:16,920
this flow engineering. 
So if you can probably summarize

843
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,680
like what is the role of leaders
in the organization? 

844
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:23,320
How is it crucial so that they 
can actually utilize this flow 

845
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:27,040
engineering for their benefits? 
I think that from the leadership

846
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,720
side you could get the sense 
with borrowing the lean 

847
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:33,560
principles and borrowing a lot 
of mapping techniques. 

848
00:46:34,120 --> 00:46:37,320
We really tried not to reinvent 
the wheel. 

849
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:41,680
We really tried not to create 
anything new for the sake of 

850
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:45,320
creating anything new because 
there's so much fantastic 

851
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:50,920
knowledge and practice that's 
come before us and it's all been

852
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:54,320
studied and there's so much 
depth that you can go dig into 

853
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,840
and leadership is well travelled
territory. 

854
00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:00,640
But you know, when we think 
about leadership in the context 

855
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,680
of flow, the lean principles and
sort of guiding and enabling 

856
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,360
folks to kind of follow those 
and build them into daily work 

857
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:12,960
is really important. 
One of the things that we are 

858
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,200
really passionate about is 
designing feedback loops and 

859
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:18,320
that goes all the way back to 
cybernetics, right? 

860
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,000
I mean, you can't operate an 
effective system without 

861
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,280
feedback. 
So making sure that those exist 

862
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,520
to inform individuals that 
they're on the right track, that

863
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,040
they know that they're headed in
the right direction, that they 

864
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,600
can effectively coordinate and 
collaborate with other people 

865
00:47:34,080 --> 00:47:37,280
and that everything that they're
doing is in service of the 

866
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,240
target goal is so critical. 
So that's a really big one. 

867
00:47:42,240 --> 00:47:46,000
Supporting the individual 
contributors and the teams that 

868
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:50,280
are making changes by creating 
enabling constraints and 

869
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,680
effective governing constraints.
You know, we talk about 

870
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,000
constraints a lot in the book 
and constraints are kind of a 

871
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:01,840
natural counterpart to Flow. 
You know, we think about 

872
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,280
bottlenecks, but something 
that's really come to light 

873
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,960
quite recently in the DevOps 
space is the idea of enabling 

874
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:13,440
constraints, things that allow 
us to do the right thing and 

875
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:15,280
make it hard to do the wrong 
thing. 

876
00:48:15,720 --> 00:48:20,160
And so that's a major aspect of 
what we put into the guidance, 

877
00:48:20,160 --> 00:48:24,080
because building these systems 
and building these guardrails 

878
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:29,200
are really, I think, what unlock
the creative capacity of people 

879
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,920
and allow them to get into a 
flow state and stay in a flow 

880
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:37,520
state when they don't have to be
managing tons of complexity and 

881
00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:41,200
cognitive load because the 
system takes care of the things 

882
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,920
that systems are really good at 
taking care of, right? 

883
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,240
So there's lots of opportunities
for automation and capabilities 

884
00:48:48,240 --> 00:48:52,800
that do things that machines 
should do so that humans can do 

885
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,400
what humans do best. 
There's one thing so I I want to

886
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,680
hand off to to Andrew for some 
other idioms here. 

887
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:03,320
But one thing that I think 
doesn't get emphasized enough is

888
00:49:03,320 --> 00:49:06,120
that a lot of people, they think
about flow, they think about 

889
00:49:06,120 --> 00:49:10,640
value streams, and they think 
about efficiency, and that this 

890
00:49:10,640 --> 00:49:13,280
is all just a race to the 
bottom, and it's a race to 

891
00:49:13,280 --> 00:49:16,160
cutting costs. 
It's a race to eliminating 

892
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:21,000
people and making the most 
robotic automated system that we

893
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,920
can make. 
And you know what we're really 

894
00:49:23,920 --> 00:49:26,360
passionate about. 
And the real opportunity is 

895
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:30,760
getting rid of all the things 
that just have no business being

896
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:33,480
part of our working lives, 
right, because they're better 

897
00:49:33,480 --> 00:49:37,640
handled by systems and 
automation and even 

898
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,760
documentation and tooling, 
right? 

899
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,080
Like there's lots of 
opportunities to get rid of the 

900
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:46,560
things that we really don't add 
value with so that we have more 

901
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:50,520
time to be creative and 
collaborative and human. 

902
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:52,880
So that's one of the things that
we're really, really passionate 

903
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:55,360
about. 
And you know, we charge leaders 

904
00:49:55,360 --> 00:49:59,120
with focusing on that rather 
than focusing on who's the 

905
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:04,560
bottleneck or how do we get rid 
of this waste that may be 

906
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:07,040
tightly associated with 
individuals, right. 

907
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:11,480
We really want the focus to be 
on systems and enabling people 

908
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:15,440
to do their best and and really 
enjoy their work so that they 

909
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:17,840
can contribute at their absolute
peak. 

910
00:50:18,240 --> 00:50:20,400
But I'll hand off to you, 
Andrew, because I just rambled 

911
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,400
for a long time. 
We started by talking about the 

912
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:25,880
challenges of scale, dealing 
with the challenges of scale. 

913
00:50:25,880 --> 00:50:27,760
And that is the responsibility 
of. 

914
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,160
I mean, a leader is someone who 
is exerting influence at scale. 

915
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:34,800
And it can be difficult even to 
understand what is your 

916
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:37,000
responsibility, what's your 
primary responsibility. 

917
00:50:37,000 --> 00:50:40,040
And so here we're really the 
word, the term flow engineering 

918
00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:43,120
is speaking to this balance of 
the fluid, the liquid, the 

919
00:50:43,120 --> 00:50:46,160
changing, the ever changing 
nature of things flow and the 

920
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,800
engineering, the systematic 
analytical mindset. 

921
00:50:48,800 --> 00:50:52,240
And so leaders very much need 
that analytical engineering 

922
00:50:52,240 --> 00:50:55,360
mindset when they're thinking 
about what is the goal, how do 

923
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:57,000
we systematically improve and so
forth. 

924
00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,160
But they need to understand that
what they're operating with, 

925
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:00,560
operating in the world of 
people. 

926
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:03,920
They're operating this world of 
psychology, sociology, this 

927
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:07,320
constant flow of change in the 
organization, flow of 

928
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:10,680
information, flow of people in 
and out, coming and going. 

929
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,120
One thing we noticed that these 
things value clarity and flow. 

930
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,000
They're ephemeral. 
I'm super clear 10:00 AM in the 

931
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:19,560
morning when I'm fully 
caffeinated and wide awake. 

932
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:23,680
And yeah, my clarity dims 
significantly at 3:00 PM in the 

933
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:24,360
afternoon. 
Right. 

934
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:26,720
So there's an understanding that
you're dealing with these 

935
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,760
invisible forces, right? 
This, you're operating in flow. 

936
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,600
A friend of mine likens this. 
She used to be a paraglider and 

937
00:51:35,600 --> 00:51:39,280
she's operating in space, you 
know with all these invisible 

938
00:51:39,280 --> 00:51:41,120
forces of the winds and so 
forth. 

939
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:43,760
And saying that operating in the
modern world is very much like 

940
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:47,320
that where you've got all of 
these invisible forces impinging

941
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,520
on you and you're trying to 
control the harness, the frame 

942
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:55,680
of the paragliding equipment and
so forth to capture that to work

943
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:59,440
together with that leaders. 
I think we aim to, if the 

944
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:04,040
leaders focus first on improving
the way of working, then they're

945
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,200
increasing the satisfaction of 
the people that they're leading.

946
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:10,480
They're increasing the creative 
capacity of the team and that 

947
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:13,960
investing first in improving 
that ability for the team to 

948
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:17,080
operate and flow, the 
coordination and so forth makes 

949
00:52:17,080 --> 00:52:20,760
it infinitely easier to 
accomplish whatever other goals 

950
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:24,920
you have as an organization. 
I like the paragliding analogy. 

951
00:52:24,920 --> 00:52:28,040
So far in this conversation we 
have learned about tug of war 

952
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,000
and we have also learned about 
paragliding. 

953
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:33,040
I think that's kind of like 
perfect analogy to explain what 

954
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,280
you just explained, right. 
So I think thanks for that 

955
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:37,600
analogy. 
And speaking about leadership 

956
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:40,560
responsibilities, of course, 
it's a tough responsibility. 

957
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:43,920
But what Steve and Andrew has 
just mentioned as tips probably 

958
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:45,760
is also is a good guidelines for
us. 

959
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:48,960
And in the books, there are a 
few more that you can also 

960
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:51,240
explore. 
And I'm really excited to see 

961
00:52:51,240 --> 00:52:53,280
the book being published in the 
next few weeks. 

962
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,640
So we reached the end of our 
conversation. 

963
00:52:55,720 --> 00:52:59,200
But before I let you go, I have 
this one last question that I 

964
00:52:59,200 --> 00:53:01,920
always ask from my guest. 
I call this 3 technical 

965
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,080
leadership wisdom. 
You can think of it just like 

966
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,840
you want to give an advice to 
the listeners here from maybe 

967
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:09,120
your experience or maybe from 
your research and things like 

968
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,440
that. 
I leave it up to you. 

969
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:13,160
How do you want to structure 
this 3 technical leadership 

970
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:14,880
wisdom? 
So if you can share them, what 

971
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,560
would that be? 
I can lead off with a few. 

972
00:53:17,640 --> 00:53:20,880
One is you don't need to know 
all the answers. 

973
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,960
I think there's often a feeling 
like if you're a tech leader in 

974
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:26,960
some position responsibility, 
you're expected to have the 

975
00:53:26,960 --> 00:53:29,720
answers. 
You're not expected to have the 

976
00:53:29,720 --> 00:53:32,520
answers. 
If you try to generate the 

977
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,800
answers, you're almost certainly
going to be wrong and just 

978
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,840
basing it on your assumptions. 
And we operate so heavily on 

979
00:53:38,840 --> 00:53:40,840
assumptions. 
What you need to be doing is 

980
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:45,120
hosting the conversation, 
bringing together conversation 

981
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:48,000
to clarify that. 
So that would be 1 nugget of 

982
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:49,120
wisdom. 
You don't have to have all the 

983
00:53:49,120 --> 00:53:52,400
answers. 
The 2nd is you need to take 

984
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:56,200
seriously and think deeply about
the human aspect of your role. 

985
00:53:56,200 --> 00:53:58,240
You might be a technician, you 
might be excellent at your 

986
00:53:58,240 --> 00:53:59,680
craft. 
If you're in any kind of 

987
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,320
leadership role. 
This is a human management 

988
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:04,640
activity. 
This is a liberal art, and your 

989
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:08,280
technical knowledge is important
that you know the lingo and the 

990
00:54:08,280 --> 00:54:12,120
mechanics of your field. 
But working with humans, your 

991
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,720
goal is to draw out of them 
their own potential for 

992
00:54:15,720 --> 00:54:18,040
greatness, right? 
And then your own internal 

993
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:21,640
maturity, your own internal 
personal development of 

994
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,440
yourself, and then your ability 
to lead is paramount. 

995
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,920
It's basically become your 
primary responsibility over your

996
00:54:27,920 --> 00:54:31,360
technical skills. 
So I'll leave it at 2:00 to give

997
00:54:31,360 --> 00:54:33,480
a chance for Steve to. 
That's great. 

998
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,240
I I will do the 1 1/2. 
I will, yes. 

999
00:54:36,240 --> 00:54:39,440
And everything that Andrew said.
I wrote these down because I was

1000
00:54:39,440 --> 00:54:41,200
thinking about this prior to the
meeting. 

1001
00:54:41,200 --> 00:54:43,600
I wrote down assume you don't 
know which is kind of the 

1002
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:46,640
corollary of but you don't have 
to know everything. 

1003
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,920
I think it's very helpful for us
to kind of walk into it, 

1004
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:54,520
especially as technical folks, 
we tend to dive right into 

1005
00:54:55,080 --> 00:54:58,720
solution space without spending 
enough time in the problem space

1006
00:54:58,720 --> 00:55:02,200
and understanding the problem. 
And then the other one that came

1007
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:05,040
to mind that that is very, you 
know, I know close to both of 

1008
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:08,400
our hearts is none of us is as 
smart as all of us. 

1009
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:12,480
This collective understanding is
so powerful and it's so 

1010
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,080
fragmented under ordinary 
circumstances. 

1011
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:19,240
And the one that I'll add that 
I'm so fond of is, is this idea 

1012
00:55:19,240 --> 00:55:23,880
of working backwards, like just 
looking for a target outcome 

1013
00:55:24,240 --> 00:55:28,120
that we can focus on and 
envision and become very 

1014
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:31,640
passionate about and then what's
going to make that happen. 

1015
00:55:32,040 --> 00:55:36,560
And that has implications for 
planning and strategy and 

1016
00:55:36,560 --> 00:55:38,360
alignment and getting people 
excited. 

1017
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:41,520
But it's also how we create a 
value stream. 

1018
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,440
You know, we look at OK, how do 
our customers get value and what

1019
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:49,640
happens before that and what 
happens before that and all the 

1020
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,840
way back. 
And so that's something that's 

1021
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,040
really kind of woven through the
book and that we really take to 

1022
00:55:56,040 --> 00:56:00,000
heart going through cybernetics 
and going through the principles

1023
00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:04,280
of Lean like it's just very 
entrenched in the content of the

1024
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,880
book and and in the practice of 
flow engineering. 

1025
00:56:06,920 --> 00:56:09,920
So hopefully that's valuable. 
Yeah. 

1026
00:56:10,120 --> 00:56:12,640
So working backwards, I think 
this is also popularized by 

1027
00:56:12,640 --> 00:56:14,720
Amazon, right. 
So I think the way they are 

1028
00:56:14,720 --> 00:56:17,920
thinking in the organization is 
always like working backwards. 

1029
00:56:18,120 --> 00:56:20,600
So thank you so much for sharing
all the wisdom. 

1030
00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:22,560
So there are many, not just 
three I believe. 

1031
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:24,960
And I think we'll summarize that
in the show notes. 

1032
00:56:25,240 --> 00:56:28,920
So for people who would love to 
connect with you or continue 

1033
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,040
this conversation or ask 
questions, is there a place 

1034
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:33,840
where they can reach both of you
online? 

1035
00:56:34,560 --> 00:56:37,000
Yeah, we we both spend a lot of 
time on LinkedIn. 

1036
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:41,600
We are constantly talking about 
flow and flow engineering and 

1037
00:56:41,960 --> 00:56:45,000
value streams and collaboration 
and DevOps. 

1038
00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:50,320
So that'd be the easiest place 
to find me and follow along with

1039
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:52,760
what I'm doing. 
And we're ramping up talking 

1040
00:56:52,760 --> 00:56:56,200
about the book. 
Folks will be able to follow 

1041
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,240
along if they pre-order the 
book, they'll get connected with

1042
00:56:59,240 --> 00:57:00,680
everything that's happening 
there. 

1043
00:57:01,320 --> 00:57:05,120
Flowengineering.org is now live,
so go check out Flow 

1044
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:08,080
engineering.org For more 
information and sign up for the 

1045
00:57:08,080 --> 00:57:09,640
e-mail list. 
Right. 

1046
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:11,320
So I'll put them all in the show
notes. 

1047
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:12,880
So thank you so much for your 
time today. 

1048
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:16,000
I hope the listeners here can 
invest more time in, you know, 

1049
00:57:16,000 --> 00:57:18,360
creating flow in the 
organization, be it for your 

1050
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,120
individual's sake and also 
collective flow. 

1051
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:23,040
So thanks again for coming to 
the show. 

1052
00:57:23,840 --> 00:57:25,520
Thanks so much Henry. 
It's been super fun. 

1053
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,360
Delighted to have the 
conversation. 

1054
00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:54,600
The.