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A quick reminder. 
Before we start our episode 

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today, to celebrate the end of 
2020 and the upcoming Tech lead 

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Journal. 20th episode. 
I'm currently running a giveaway

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Choose five lucky winners and 
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December 2020. 
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You know that Dev slash. 

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You know, that death / giveaway.
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and special. 
Thanks to jetbrains for 

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sponsoring this giveaway with 
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limitations you can't go beyond 
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or like the technology changes, 
but with people in distinct 

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Parts it if you get all the 
parts write the sum of the parts

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will be definitely greater than 
adding them together. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry. 

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Sorry. 01. 
And you're listening to the 

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tekhelet journal. 
The show will be bringing you 

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00:01:36,700 --> 00:01:40,200
the greatest technical leaders 
practitioners and thought 

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leaders in the industry to 
discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hello, my friend. 
Thanks for tuning in. 

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00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,800
Welcome to another episode of 
the tekhelet journal with me. 

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00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:09,199
Ojos, Henry Surya. 
We are one time flies so fast 

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00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,600
and we are quickly coming to the
end of 2020 due to the pandemic.

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It is definitely one of the most
challenging years that I've 

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encountered in my whole life and
I think most likely to many of 

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you as well. 
And even though the year has 

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brought a lot of tough 
challenges to us. 

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I hope at the same time that it 
brings you some resiliency and 

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opportunities. 
To explore new things and bring 

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you to a new level of personal 
growth. 

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00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,000
Personally. 
I have grown a lot myself 

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00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,700
including creating this podcast 
in the last six months and being

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able to share my conversations 
with great technical leaders 

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from the region and around the 
world. 

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My Hope Is that the situation 
gets a lot better in the year 

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2021 and that hopefully we can 
all go back to our normal 

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routines and activities. 
As for this podcast. 

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I will also continue to do my 
best to bring you high quality. 

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Polity, contents and stories 
from amazing. 

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Guess that I could invite to the
show, in order to be able to 

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continue inviting more amazing 
guest. 

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I'd like to ask a small favor of
you to share this podcast with 

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your colleagues and friends to 
leave me rating and review on 

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00:03:14,700 --> 00:03:18,300
the podcast app and to join the 
growing podcast community on 

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LinkedIn. 
Twitter and Instagram, your post

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interactions and comments would 
definitely helped me a lot to 

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amplify the impact of my amazing
guest. 

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And if you are a fan of this 
podcast, I would like to make a 

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contribution to the show. 
You can go to the patron page at

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Tech, Legion of the death, / 
Patron and pledge, your support 

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as a patron. 
I'm currently running a goal on 

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the patreon page and any 
contribution from you with 

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tremendously helped me towards 
achieving that goal. 

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In today's episode. 
I had a pleasant conversation 

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with ranganathan ballast on 
mugham or ranga for short ranga 

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is the co-founder and CTO of 
avarice engineering a company 

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that provides software. 
Cheering when you need it. 

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He is passionate about scaling 
and leading distributed teams 

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where I think most of us can 
relate to with the remote 

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working. 
Becoming a norm nowadays ranga 

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shared with me, his insightful 
views on how to lead a 

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distributed team by taking 
parallel from distributed 

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system. 
How to overcome challenges when 

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building a team with different 
culture, how to hire and onboard

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new people to the team and also 
how to become a great leader by 

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learning from his multiple. 
In parallel and anecdotes. 

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Another interesting thing that 
ranga shared with me, in this 

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episode is regarding his trip to
conquer the Mount, Everest Base 

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Camp a trip, that gave him some 
unique insights and inspiration,

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which then led him to start 
founding Everest engineering. 

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I hope that you will enjoy this 
great episode. 

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Please. 
Consider helping the show in the

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smallest possible way by leaving
me a rating and review on Apple 

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00:04:55,500 --> 00:04:58,200
podcast and other podcast apps 
that allow you to do. 

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00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:01,800
So those ratings and Reviews are
one of the best ways to get 

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00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:05,200
these podcasts to reach more 
listeners and hopefully the show

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gets featured on the podcast 
platform. 

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I'm also looking forward to 
hearing any comments and 

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feedback on the social media, or
you can also directly send to me

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at technology, know that death, 
/ feedback. 

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So let's get this episode 
started. 

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Hello, welcome to another 
episode of the technology. 

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You know, today I have with me 
ranganathan Burleson, mugam. 

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I hope I pronounce the name 
correctly, or maybe I'll shoot 

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prefer calling your name ranga. 
Saranga is someone I know from 

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colleague of mine. 
I actually saw a ranganathan 

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stalk in Yukon, London, 2020 on 
a website and I find the topic 

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is really interesting, which is 
about scaling distributed team. 

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I know these days that we are 
all working, probably remotely 

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and also distributed in terms of
the global Workforce and 

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sometimes we Have to actually 
overcome the challenges of 

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working in such manner. 
So I hope ranga today will be 

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able to share some of his 
expertise on how we can actually

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work in the distributed manner 
in a scalable manner. 

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So that we all can work in 
producing things in a good 

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quality. 
So welcome. 

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Rhonda to the show and looking 
forward to the chat with you 

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today. 
Thank you so much. 

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Henry has been great listening 
to your podcast and being part 

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of it is still awesome oranga, 
maybe before we talk about all 

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these scalable distributed team.
You can maybe share with us your

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career Journey, so So what are 
your highlights or maybe major 

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turning points? 
So I was actually graduated as a

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civil engineer and in my final 
year project that we mostly 

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focused on picking up some 
interesting stuff on a and 

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applied it back. 
During those days. 

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There was not much internet 
here. 

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And I basically what are in use 
a book from somewhere and try to

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Again, by some C++ book because 
some of the code was in C++ and 

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tried learning it myself during 
my college and try to apply that

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back in learning some models on 
a two-way, slab design. 

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And that's where my journey for.
Transitioning back into computer

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science. 
Begin and eventually started 

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liking it and through campus. 
I moved it to a different path 

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that is society. 
And that's how I started 

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becoming a software engineer 
from there. 

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Like, it was around 12 years 
from, then most continues lot of

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programming, design and 
architecture of stuff. 

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And the last thing that I was 
doing was mostly into working or

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learning a lot of distributed 
systems. 

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And that was quite interesting 
for me because suddenly when we 

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added more systems, the 
capacitor is increasing. 

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And the lot of other 
Technologies like Hadoop Kafka 

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sparkling a lot of other Things 
that came up during the exact 

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same time. 
That got me, so excited and I 

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tried that for some time and 
then eventually from there, 

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after 20 years. 
I'm took complete transition 

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into in management. 
Come an operational role. 

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So moody a company called a 
Kleenex that's where I started 

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managing multiple engineering 
teams advance. 

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And that was that scale also 
parallelly managing operations 

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for the company. 
That was very interesting that 

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gave me a very good opportunity 
for leading teams across the 

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globe, and also learning from 
different teams across 

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eventually. 
After we got acquired by Oracle.

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Urkel. 
And from there I moved to and 

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started actually complete called
a reverse engineering. 

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So I took a break and went for a
one month. 

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Actually two-day trip to Everest
Base Camp and came back and I 

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was very clear on what I'm going
to do next. 

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And that's why our whole ever 
seeing started. 

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I'm contouring here SC2. 
And my role is mostly into 

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managing the engineering 
culture. 

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Setting up the software 
engineering expectations across 

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the company, and mostly 
operations. 

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And of course, a lot of 
administrative stuff 

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uninterested. 
When you say that you went to 

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Base camp took a break and 
basically try to find out what 

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to do next. 
So maybe you can share that kind

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of Journey for people who are 
probably thinking of, okay. 

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I don't know what to do next. 
Maybe you can take inspiration 

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from ranga here. 
What happened when you went to 

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address so many public company? 
Like Oracle buys another company

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like a techniques, which is 
another public company. 

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One of the things is it's super 
busy activity because there's a 

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lot of playbooks that the 
company starts executing and it 

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was three different time zones 
because I was in India and 

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Oracle Headquarters was in u.s. 
Oh and techniques was President 

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00:08:53,100 --> 00:08:55,600
Melbourne, which is in 
Australia, which means early 

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morning, we start most of the 
work and we also have to think 

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about back during afternoon 
during the Indian time and then 

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a lot of calls in the night to 
match up the US team where that 

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used to be super, super busy for
nine months and the whole 

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transition was happening. 
So the point was not able to 

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make a clear Russian of what I 
want to do next and I wanted a 

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00:09:11,408 --> 00:09:13,700
break and that's when I thought.
Like it was kind of impulsive. 

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00:09:13,700 --> 00:09:16,700
It was not like very planned and
things like that soap in one 

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00:09:16,700 --> 00:09:18,200
week. 
I just decided to book the 

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tickets and went to Kathmandu 
and from there went to Everest 

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Base Camp. 
A lot of interesting things that

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you can do there. 
One, most important thing is we 

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don't have a laptop and moves at
least 99 percent of the time you

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00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,700
don't have signals and the more 
higher you go the altitude the 

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chances of getting a signal is 
very very low. 

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So one thing is you have that 
complete space for yourself. 

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Other interesting thing is you 
have a lot of personal time 

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because in the evenings after 4 
or around for 30, something like

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00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,200
that every day, you don't have a
chance to go out much, you 

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00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,500
Chrome around but you're like 
most constrained within the 

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space because it's too cold and 
more higher. 

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You go it. 
Smoke older and you don't have 

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much chance to go outside. 
That means you have a lot of 

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00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:57,500
time where you don't want to do 
anything but you're sitting in a

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00:09:57,508 --> 00:10:00,500
like a small wooden place and 
your two options when it's like 

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there's a common all everywhere 
where you go and you chat with 

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00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:05,200
lot of people and then learn 
from them and there are 

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00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,400
interesting things there or you 
just sit in the room and then 

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just think for yourself without 
mobile with our laptop. 

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No TV nothing. 
So that's a beautiful time to 

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think for a lot of things there.
Like, lot of interesting things 

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that I learned there. 
One is the more higher you go. 

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00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:19,900
It's not about the speed. 
It's more about the pace at 

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00:10:19,900 --> 00:10:22,300
which you go. 
Anyone can go go very fast for 

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00:10:22,300 --> 00:10:23,700
23 days. 
There's a concept called 

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00:10:23,700 --> 00:10:26,700
acclimatization, for the people 
who don't know that, it's a kind

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00:10:26,700 --> 00:10:29,300
of onboarding into a new 
altitude every time and you can 

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00:10:29,300 --> 00:10:31,300
apply back to companies or your 
team's. 

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00:10:31,500 --> 00:10:34,500
A simple thing is, if you go to 
a higher altitude your body 

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00:10:34,500 --> 00:10:38,400
needs more oxygen from the air 
or like the equal toxin that you

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00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,400
need normally but from the thin 
air. 

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00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,600
So the air becomes more thinner 
because of that our body needs 

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00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:47,200
time to change its cells to 
create more red blood cells with

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00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:49,000
that. 
You have like more capacity to 

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00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,100
absorb the oxygen and Moorhead. 
So you need to Your body that 

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00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:53,700
time. 
I'll tell you they're like an 

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00:10:53,700 --> 00:10:55,600
interesting thing that happened.
So there are a couple of people 

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00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,400
who are like really rushing 
forward and the few people in 

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00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,300
our group selfie. 
You should not be rushing for 

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00:11:00,300 --> 00:11:01,600
words. 
You should slow down and all, 

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00:11:01,700 --> 00:11:04,000
but ignored, but after one day, 
we saw them lying down on the 

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00:11:04,008 --> 00:11:06,100
ground because they couldn't 
support dogs in that was needed 

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00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:08,700
because your brain needs time to
produce that the alternative is 

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00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:11,700
you take capsules which produce 
more often, but that's not the 

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00:11:11,700 --> 00:11:13,700
journey that we want to go in. 
That's a shortcut. 

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00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,100
So that made me like, hey, 
sometimes you have to really go 

231
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slow and you have a team and 
account as yourself and learn 

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things, and I always apply that 
back to earning more like 

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00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:24,500
onboarding your company. 
You can't hire a person who is 

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00:11:24,500 --> 00:11:27,200
really smart and then think 
that, hey, they'll come into 

235
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:30,100
your company and start or 
performing everybody else that 

236
00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:32,100
won't happen because they have 
to first understand the 

237
00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:34,400
environment and you need to give
them time to connect with 

238
00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,500
everybody else and culture 
understanding. 

239
00:11:36,700 --> 00:11:39,200
So different companies has 
different styles and that's 

240
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,300
interesting because you come 
back and learn with that. 

241
00:11:41,300 --> 00:11:43,300
That's our onboarding. 
And same thing that I try to 

242
00:11:43,300 --> 00:11:45,700
learn from them and there are 
few more things like the more 

243
00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:47,800
higher you go. 
You can't take all the basic 

244
00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:49,600
things that you want to do. 
Like everyday bath. 

245
00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,700
You can't do, it's too cold. 
And you don't start much a lot 

246
00:11:52,700 --> 00:11:55,300
of the luxuries that you have or
limited for yourself. 

247
00:11:55,500 --> 00:11:57,900
When you come back the first box
that you take. 

248
00:11:57,900 --> 00:11:59,600
That's a big, big luxury. 
Yeah. 

249
00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,000
So I think these are some of the
interesting things that I have 

250
00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:04,300
like the lot of interesting 
things, but it's an experience, 

251
00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:07,100
you have to actually go there 
and experience it and one and 

252
00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:08,500
only advice I have is real 
trashy. 

253
00:12:08,500 --> 00:12:10,600
Enjoy the pool journey and then 
come back. 

254
00:12:10,600 --> 00:12:13,100
There is no point in going there
and then racing to reach the 

255
00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:15,000
top. 
Yeah, I can sense the like, for 

256
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,500
example, you go into this tough 
environment. 

257
00:12:17,500 --> 00:12:19,700
Let's take an example. 
Like you go into this big 

258
00:12:19,700 --> 00:12:23,200
companies where everything Seems
to be very fast-paced and people

259
00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,700
are smart in a way. 
So, sometimes, as a new Joiner 

260
00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:28,700
onboarding will be such a 
critical thing. 

261
00:12:28,700 --> 00:12:31,100
Like what you said, 
acclimatizing to the company 

262
00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:34,000
culture, to the company, way of 
working and workflows and things

263
00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:35,800
like that. 
I think it's super important. 

264
00:12:35,900 --> 00:12:39,100
And I, like the way when you 
said at FRS going to even 

265
00:12:39,100 --> 00:12:41,500
further to the top, you have 
nothing, you have no internet. 

266
00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:43,900
You have no signal. 
So you have time and space for 

267
00:12:43,900 --> 00:12:46,300
you, maybe to think about 
nothing or maybe to get 

268
00:12:46,300 --> 00:12:47,500
inspiration and things like 
that. 

269
00:12:47,500 --> 00:12:49,800
Sometimes I actually have this 
kind of moments as well when I 

270
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,600
go for a walk every evening. 
So sometimes you have these kind

271
00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,600
of inspiration, somehow going 
through your mind. 

272
00:12:54,700 --> 00:12:56,800
You have also another 
interesting story, which I 

273
00:12:56,808 --> 00:12:59,900
quoted from the top that you 
gave before you took on this 

274
00:12:59,900 --> 00:13:02,200
management role. 
Maybe you can share us a little 

275
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:04,400
bit about that story. 
Why you dare to take that 

276
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:05,800
management role? 
Yeah. 

277
00:13:06,100 --> 00:13:09,000
So I started recording like 
around 16, 17 years back and 

278
00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,700
interesting part at that point 
is you have very minimal memory 

279
00:13:11,700 --> 00:13:13,300
and then you hold like very 
minimal power. 

280
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,800
At the point. 
When you write a code. 

281
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,300
You don't need the whole, like, 
a simple mission in training 

282
00:13:17,300 --> 00:13:19,600
takes a couple of days. 
So your mission is just running.

283
00:13:19,600 --> 00:13:21,100
And if there is a power cut, the
whole thing is gone. 

284
00:13:21,300 --> 00:13:23,100
Your to restart it, that's very 
interesting. 

285
00:13:23,100 --> 00:13:26,400
And from there once I started 
seeing things that the internet 

286
00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:28,800
and then you have like servers, 
the evolution was a very 

287
00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:31,200
interesting Journey. 
So what it eventually led to was

288
00:13:31,300 --> 00:13:34,500
understanding and learning about
scaling and scaling systems was 

289
00:13:34,500 --> 00:13:36,000
one thing. 
That was very, very exciting for

290
00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:37,400
me. 
So I used to go around and give 

291
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:39,800
talks and Paul interesting 
topics on scaling and I also 

292
00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:42,600
used to learn a lot about that, 
one of the directors of 

293
00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,400
Economics. 
He called me when I was in the 

294
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,900
previous companies a developer 
initially the conversation 

295
00:13:46,900 --> 00:13:49,200
started as an engineering 
manager, but you enjoyed it more

296
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:52,400
to get off doing other things. 
The That he told was very, very 

297
00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:54,100
interesting which convinced me 
to move? 

298
00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:55,400
One of the things that he said 
was here. 

299
00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,800
And whenever you speak, you're 
showing a lot of excitement 

300
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,400
about scale. 
And the most interesting part 

301
00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:04,200
here is a lot of things that you
learn from scaling systems. 

302
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,500
Horizontally can be applied back
to people, then I said, do you 

303
00:14:07,500 --> 00:14:09,800
think the system and people are 
saying then he said it's not 

304
00:14:09,800 --> 00:14:12,000
like that but you can definitely
learn from Palace. 

305
00:14:12,100 --> 00:14:14,600
And when you apply you get a 
very unique style of management 

306
00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:16,400
and Leadership and that will be 
interesting. 

307
00:14:16,500 --> 00:14:19,000
So after that conversation went 
really long, that simple part of

308
00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:21,100
the conversation meant for at 
least, 30, 40 minutes. 

309
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,700
Then I played on some of the 
examples from here and then he 

310
00:14:24,700 --> 00:14:27,200
gives some counters examples on 
that side. 

311
00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,300
One is on the engineering side 
and the research on the people 

312
00:14:29,300 --> 00:14:32,300
side both were interesting and 
that really drove me to move 

313
00:14:32,300 --> 00:14:33,800
into management and give it a 
shot. 

314
00:14:33,900 --> 00:14:36,400
I really loved that part where I
moved into operations and 

315
00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:38,200
scaling teams. 
There is also like quite 

316
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,600
interesting, but it's more 
challenging because people are 

317
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,700
more complicated. 
So maybe we can start with this 

318
00:14:43,700 --> 00:14:47,000
discussion about the scaling 
distributed teams, taking 

319
00:14:47,000 --> 00:14:49,300
parallels from distributed 
systems. 

320
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,100
So maybe you can start. 
Where do you get This spark of 

321
00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:55,100
an idea that actually you can 
treat distributed teams similar 

322
00:14:55,100 --> 00:14:58,400
to distributed systems, which 
part that actually are line much

323
00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:00,200
stronger. 
And I know there are obvious 

324
00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:03,400
emotion part and the human part 
which are not probably aligned 

325
00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:05,600
to the distributed system, but 
we can start with something that

326
00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,400
aligns much stronger. 
Let us take a simple thing like 

327
00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:11,600
a God, if you take a car and 
then you want to add more load 

328
00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,800
to it at some point. 
It breaks at that point. 

329
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:15,600
You want to add and take more 
load. 

330
00:15:15,700 --> 00:15:19,400
So one of the options is to add 
a more powerful bull, but it 

331
00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,000
doesn't scale after that. 
That's the Our second thing is, 

332
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,500
if you want to buy the most, 
most powerful bull than it's the

333
00:15:25,500 --> 00:15:28,000
most expensive thing in the 
world and you by heat and then 

334
00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:29,900
keep it, but it also has 
limitations. 

335
00:15:30,100 --> 00:15:32,900
So the other smart idea is to 
put two bulls and then add to 

336
00:15:32,900 --> 00:15:35,300
the car, and that's how it 
scales and then start pulling 

337
00:15:35,300 --> 00:15:36,600
it. 
So that's where, like, we move 

338
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,500
from a processor in tumult 
ecosystem. 

339
00:15:38,500 --> 00:15:41,100
But even for multi-core system, 
it's again, a single card. 

340
00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:43,600
So, how do you scale after that?
You either take multiple 

341
00:15:43,600 --> 00:15:46,000
Journeys, which is again, time 
when we are like trying to 

342
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,400
optimize time. 
Then you need more units of 

343
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:50,000
system. 
Then you add more blue cards. 

344
00:15:50,000 --> 00:15:53,000
So that's where you had to The 
cards and then try to pull the 

345
00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:55,400
load or distribute the load 
across cards, horizontally. 

346
00:15:55,600 --> 00:15:57,500
How do we scale machine? 
Similarly? 

347
00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:00,800
Can we use a single system or 
can we like use horizontal 

348
00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,600
scaling of systems where you add
more and more machines and you 

349
00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:06,700
get more power and storage, but 
the interesting part there is 

350
00:16:06,700 --> 00:16:09,400
the more systems we had 
horizontally the harder it 

351
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,900
becomes to collaborate because 
all of the people need to know 

352
00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:14,500
what is the task that they are 
doing and how they're 

353
00:16:14,500 --> 00:16:17,100
coordinating, which means 
there's an intense amount of 

354
00:16:17,100 --> 00:16:19,900
organizing and coordination that
needs to take place across 

355
00:16:19,900 --> 00:16:22,200
people. 
And that's Are you need proper 

356
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,300
management and Leadership to to 
that so that some part of it. 

357
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,600
But having said that, hey, you 
have systems. 

358
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,200
And then a lot of times if you 
come from an engineering mindset

359
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,300
and mood, when management thing 
become with the mindset saying 

360
00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:35,600
that he now I have a problem. 
This is solved by five machines,

361
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,700
in fiies can increase the 
throughput of doubling my 

362
00:16:38,700 --> 00:16:41,800
machines 10 and I get half the 
time that works for machines, 

363
00:16:41,800 --> 00:16:43,700
probably, but doesn't work for 
people. 

364
00:16:43,700 --> 00:16:47,000
You cannot just pull people in, 
and then just assume that 

365
00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,900
they'll take because people 
start at different points, and 

366
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:52,200
the hard part is the paper. 
Collaborate, which is some of 

367
00:16:52,208 --> 00:16:54,800
the machines work is different. 
Machines are just following the 

368
00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:56,700
protocols. 
People don't follow protocols 

369
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,200
and has a lot of emotions and 
other things involved, which 

370
00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:01,500
makes it hard to collaborate, 
but the most interesting part 

371
00:17:01,500 --> 00:17:03,600
is, maybe you get twice that 
throughput. 

372
00:17:03,700 --> 00:17:06,200
But if you're managing, well, 
probably you get 10 times, the 

373
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,099
throughput that's more 
interesting because with 

374
00:17:08,099 --> 00:17:10,400
machines, you know, the 
limitations you can't go beyond 

375
00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,800
that. 
Machines are done there. 

376
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:13,900
You have to upgrade your 
machines or like the technology 

377
00:17:13,900 --> 00:17:15,000
changes. 
That's what happens. 

378
00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:18,000
But with people the distinct 
Parts it, if you get all the 

379
00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,599
parts write the sum of the parts
will be definitely greater than 

380
00:17:20,599 --> 00:17:21,599
adding them. 
Together. 

381
00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:25,099
Yeah, what do you think are some
of these Hearts When you mention

382
00:17:25,099 --> 00:17:28,400
like what things that make these
kind of collaboration between 

383
00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:31,800
people can be more than the sum 
of its parts Village multiple 

384
00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,800
things actually. 
So again, let us talk about 

385
00:17:33,800 --> 00:17:35,200
because we are all working 
remotely. 

386
00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:38,400
I'll take a concept called 
virtual distance, which is from 

387
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:40,700
a professor called Karen. 
What he explains is very 

388
00:17:40,700 --> 00:17:42,900
interesting because that's talks
about a psychological distance 

389
00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:45,000
between people and how we can 
work on it. 

390
00:17:45,100 --> 00:17:47,500
So, psychological distance can 
be broken down into physical 

391
00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:51,100
distance and then there is like 
a collaboration distance and I 

392
00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:54,000
Don't even the exact words that 
we generally use for it. 

393
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,800
But I think it's physical 
distance, operation distance and

394
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,300
virtual distance. 
So coming back on that. 

395
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:00,700
Physical distance is very 
simple. 

396
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,000
We are at a different places. 
So when you have to collaborate 

397
00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:04,800
this actual physical distance, 
you can't collaborate that 

398
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,600
easily and it grows, right? 
Like your between officers to 

399
00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,500
different time zones and 
eventually, even within the same

400
00:18:10,500 --> 00:18:13,400
company, even if the co-located,
if you are from a different 

401
00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,400
organization on your like 
insulting versus actual 

402
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,600
employee, there is some distance
for not really connecting at 

403
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:19,700
that core level. 
So that's what is the physical 

404
00:18:19,700 --> 00:18:21,700
distance? 
The second one is Is operational

405
00:18:21,700 --> 00:18:24,300
distance operating distance, 
mostly talk about the noise in 

406
00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,700
the system? 
Which means how can you reduce 

407
00:18:26,700 --> 00:18:30,100
the lag in that connect? 
Which means how easy is it to 

408
00:18:30,100 --> 00:18:32,800
just connect with somebody? 
As if it is direct, for example,

409
00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,500
let us take video calls. 
If the quality of voice is bad, 

410
00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:37,900
the quality of videos bad. 
We lose a lot of time in the 

411
00:18:37,900 --> 00:18:41,500
noise of the system itself, 
which is a lot better to ignore.

412
00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,300
How can we make those systems 
better or add better tools? 

413
00:18:44,500 --> 00:18:47,300
The last part is the virtual 
distance that we are talking 

414
00:18:47,300 --> 00:18:50,800
about which, even if you put 
small time in improving it it 

415
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:52,300
gains. 
A lot of output. 

416
00:18:52,300 --> 00:18:54,900
A simple thing is communication,
for example, for trust. 

417
00:18:55,100 --> 00:18:57,400
So these are some of the things 
that will come in this way. 

418
00:18:57,700 --> 00:18:59,900
And a lot of work is done in 
this place and different 

419
00:18:59,900 --> 00:19:01,500
companies have different strains
of things. 

420
00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:03,700
Let us take an example of trust 
people. 

421
00:19:03,700 --> 00:19:06,800
All the options that you want to
go on at, what level do you you 

422
00:19:06,900 --> 00:19:09,700
at least most of the people, I 
talked to, they need Freedom, 

423
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:11,700
which means they need to make 
their own choices. 

424
00:19:11,700 --> 00:19:14,600
You can't impose your choices on
them when you want to do that. 

425
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,400
You also want them to be 
accountable. 

426
00:19:16,500 --> 00:19:17,500
And how does that 
accountability? 

427
00:19:17,500 --> 00:19:19,500
Come because there is an 
expectation Gap. 

428
00:19:19,700 --> 00:19:21,700
And how do you clear? 
That Gap is By giving more 

429
00:19:21,700 --> 00:19:23,100
clarity, and how do you create 
that? 

430
00:19:23,100 --> 00:19:26,000
Clarity is giving them Norms? 
How do you create Norms? 

431
00:19:26,100 --> 00:19:28,000
A good example of, that would be
cities. 

432
00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:30,700
So let us take cities and if 
you're, for example, I'm in 

433
00:19:30,700 --> 00:19:33,700
Bangalore and then I discovered 
and didn't know much your rules 

434
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:35,700
about the city. 
Basically, you can't kill 

435
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:38,600
people, but apart from that, 
there are basic rules, which can

436
00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,300
be cannot break as humans. 
But apart from that, you are 

437
00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:43,700
allowed to take your own dacians
and Moorhead show. 

438
00:19:43,700 --> 00:19:45,500
See your own behaviors and 
improve yourself. 

439
00:19:45,700 --> 00:19:48,000
Let us think I go to a new city 
called Singapore. 

440
00:19:48,100 --> 00:19:51,200
When I come to Singapore. 
I do not buy a rule book about I

441
00:19:51,208 --> 00:19:53,900
should behave in Singapore. 
I look around and as soon as I 

442
00:19:53,900 --> 00:19:57,300
see people, I know that, hey, 
this South buses work in India 

443
00:19:57,300 --> 00:19:59,200
and these. 
So people go in buses in 

444
00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:02,600
Singapore and probably by seeing
those behaviors and trying to 

445
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,100
understand and learn from his 
when you start learning about 

446
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:06,700
it. 
Other than interesting example, 

447
00:20:06,800 --> 00:20:09,000
so I know, Singapore is mostly 
modern city. 

448
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:11,100
So my assumption was not to 
carry cash. 

449
00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,900
I came to Singapore and the 
first day I went around like a 

450
00:20:13,908 --> 00:20:14,900
lot of things. 
Very simple. 

451
00:20:14,900 --> 00:20:17,000
I didn't have any rule book and 
I went on a street and then 

452
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,000
bought an ice cream. 
The thing is I also studied in 

453
00:20:20,000 --> 00:20:22,900
before paying and then, Then 
while eating I just gave my card

454
00:20:22,900 --> 00:20:25,200
and they said no cards. 
So interesting part is, you 

455
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:27,900
actually learned that a lot of 
people use cash in Singapore 

456
00:20:27,900 --> 00:20:30,200
than cards. 
So eventually I had to give 

457
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,000
other standard dollars or other 
thing, which I had now destiny 

458
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,400
put out and I had to have that 
conversation to get it done. 

459
00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:37,600
But the thing is very simple. 
That's what we are talking about

460
00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:39,800
the virtual distance. 
So this is a very small part of 

461
00:20:39,808 --> 00:20:42,000
virtual distance. 
We are talking about Freedom, 

462
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,900
accountability the framework for
understanding things, and that's

463
00:20:44,900 --> 00:20:45,900
what we can. 
Apply back. 

464
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:48,100
Like different cities have 
different cultures, but they 

465
00:20:48,100 --> 00:20:50,000
have Norms on which the city 
operates. 

466
00:20:50,100 --> 00:20:52,100
A simple thing is. 
It's too crowded in India. 

467
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,100
You can just skip the line and 
then go across people. 

468
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:57,300
Do few things, but you cannot do
that in few other cities for 

469
00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:58,800
exam. 
The first time I went to Dublin,

470
00:20:58,900 --> 00:21:01,200
the hard part was me to 
understand is you have to give a

471
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,600
lot of space between people 
because in India, when I stand 

472
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:05,600
in a line, I used to stand very 
close to each other. 

473
00:21:05,900 --> 00:21:08,900
So those are the cultural gaps 
that you can learn understand 

474
00:21:08,900 --> 00:21:11,100
and come to a common ground and 
then move ahead. 

475
00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:14,100
These are small small things but
value of impact of that when you

476
00:21:14,108 --> 00:21:16,300
apply it back to a company's lot
better. 

477
00:21:16,500 --> 00:21:18,900
So let us think how we can apply
it back to the team. 

478
00:21:18,900 --> 00:21:21,000
Like for example, let us take an
office. 

479
00:21:21,100 --> 00:21:24,300
In Australia, Melbourne, and 
then in office in India. 

480
00:21:24,500 --> 00:21:26,700
So actually one of the things 
that you see is people are 

481
00:21:26,700 --> 00:21:29,800
brought up more independently. 
So the to take more independent 

482
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,300
decisions and kind of authority 
to nurse is lot less. 

483
00:21:33,500 --> 00:21:36,300
Now, if you take Japan for 
example, and if your work with 

484
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:38,500
Japanese people, it's very 
authoritative culture. 

485
00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:42,100
So, the way people sit versus 
the people take decisions these 

486
00:21:42,100 --> 00:21:45,000
a lot more different than, 
again, if you take India, it's 

487
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,000
little bit heretical. 
But because they're working with

488
00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,100
lot of Gallatin companies. 
There's a confusion because some

489
00:21:49,100 --> 00:21:51,800
people try to apply it there and
that Doesn't book. 

490
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:54,500
So these are the things where 
you can try to improve the 

491
00:21:54,508 --> 00:21:56,900
virtual distance, which means 
there are some things which are 

492
00:21:56,900 --> 00:21:59,400
very local to a particular 
culture, but they're like some 

493
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,700
Global things. 
So the global things is what we 

494
00:22:01,700 --> 00:22:04,600
can make it as Norms but allow 
people to be locally, right? 

495
00:22:04,700 --> 00:22:07,600
For example, if you're going to 
Japan and suddenly you are 

496
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,200
hiring all these people who have
worked in a radical organization

497
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:12,500
and you're not giving onboarding
time of a new culture. 

498
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:14,500
And then you suddenly say, we 
are all garroted in everybody. 

499
00:22:14,500 --> 00:22:17,100
Take their own dacians. 
It becomes extremely hard. 

500
00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,600
So that's where virtually since 
become very, very different. 

501
00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,400
And then, if an Austrian team, 
I'm Japanese team and indeed 

502
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:24,300
team of collaborating. 
It becomes extremely hard. 

503
00:22:24,300 --> 00:22:27,000
You have to understand the 
virtual distance and then try to

504
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,200
improve on that. 
Yeah. 

505
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,900
This is such an interesting 
concept. 

506
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:31,800
Definitely. 
I've worked with global team 

507
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:34,800
before as well, like multiple 
countries, multiple continents. 

508
00:22:34,900 --> 00:22:37,400
So, I can understand that there 
are norms. 

509
00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,600
There are like, what you said, 
authoritative as Independent, 

510
00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:43,000
hierarchical Business, may be. 
No hierarchy. 

511
00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:46,200
So, these are some of the things
that obviously, it's pretty 

512
00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,000
abstract. 
So, how can you improve your 

513
00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,000
visual distance for someone who 
is just joined a company? 

514
00:22:51,500 --> 00:22:54,000
It's actually a very, very long 
topic and a lot of things, but I

515
00:22:54,008 --> 00:22:57,000
can give you like a few Snippets
or like a few interesting things

516
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:58,800
that I have learned. 
So, one of the things that I 

517
00:22:58,808 --> 00:23:00,900
learned is communication is 
very, very important. 

518
00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,700
As soon as somebody comes in. 
The most important point, is 

519
00:23:03,700 --> 00:23:06,300
giving them that onboarding time
and if they are not working with

520
00:23:06,300 --> 00:23:08,400
a similar organization, even if 
they work with a similar 

521
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,400
organization to organization out
or never exactly the same, this 

522
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,000
is definitely going to be a lot 
of difference. 

523
00:23:13,100 --> 00:23:16,200
And each time a person gets 
added to an organization, the 

524
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:17,900
style changes. 
I'll give you another very 

525
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:19,300
interesting analogy, which I 
like. 

526
00:23:19,300 --> 00:23:22,600
So if you take boat racing 
Generally, the way people city, 

527
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,900
is there are like eight people 
who sit alternatively and they 

528
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:28,900
actually row the boat on a 
reverse Direction and they see 

529
00:23:28,900 --> 00:23:31,800
the lead of the boat on the 
other direction and they watch 

530
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,100
for hints. 
These are the people who are 

531
00:23:33,108 --> 00:23:35,000
like actually controlling the 
direction and giving you some of

532
00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,500
the ins, but the amount of 
practice that they take to make 

533
00:23:37,500 --> 00:23:39,800
it more efficient. 
He's just to get all of them on 

534
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,200
a similar case. 
A simple example is even if one 

535
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,500
of them is more faster. 
All the effort is gone. 

536
00:23:44,500 --> 00:23:46,700
The whole Direction, the kind of
things is gone. 

537
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,400
Which means how do you 
collaborate at such a level that

538
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:50,900
we are all coming to the same 
point? 

539
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,700
So I'll take another parallel so
that they like some, my new 

540
00:23:53,700 --> 00:23:56,200
distances which will be more 
clear than other pallor least. 

541
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,300
Let us take an orchestra, which 
is a very, very good example for

542
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:02,400
collaboration in an orchestra 
assume that you're bringing in a

543
00:24:02,408 --> 00:24:05,000
new person who is just doing to 
do drums. 

544
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:06,000
Now. 
If you don't give them the 

545
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:08,900
onboarding time on this Trail of
the conductor, and other thing 

546
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:11,100
the hardpoint for them is the 
day one, you take. 

547
00:24:11,100 --> 00:24:12,900
Um, the orchestra doesn't become
grateful. 

548
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:14,900
It's not that easy. 
It's exactly similar to 

549
00:24:14,900 --> 00:24:16,300
companies. 
You cannot pull in people from 

550
00:24:16,300 --> 00:24:18,900
other orchestras and put it in 
different orchestron. 

551
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:20,900
Think the music will be seen. 
It's very hard. 

552
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:22,700
And companies are exactly going 
to be same. 

553
00:24:22,700 --> 00:24:25,200
As soon as an individual gets 
added, there is going to be 

554
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,700
small deviation. 
If you put it as a very minut 

555
00:24:27,700 --> 00:24:29,100
graph. 
There is a change in culture. 

556
00:24:29,100 --> 00:24:30,500
Every time you person gets 
added. 

557
00:24:30,500 --> 00:24:33,800
And as our mission scales, the 
cultural part keeps on changing 

558
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:35,700
and that's why you have to keep 
on working on the virtual 

559
00:24:35,700 --> 00:24:38,900
distances, but in an orchestra 
conductor, which is very simple.

560
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:41,200
So this a leader who is setting 
up the direction, setting up the

561
00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,000
rules and apart from that you 
watch around the behaviors. 

562
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:46,000
Like the one I said in cities 
parallels. 

563
00:24:46,100 --> 00:24:48,300
So you check around watching the
behaviors and try to understand.

564
00:24:48,300 --> 00:24:50,900
Hey, then this person says moves
his hand like that. 

565
00:24:51,500 --> 00:24:54,100
It means I did something wrong. 
I need to correct myself. 

566
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,100
The second thing is the MU 
little bit harder. 

567
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,400
It means you can't admit it. 
It's like a very hard one in so 

568
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,800
that part, you understand here, 
maybe in another group. 

569
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:04,700
They just watch you very 
seriously, and if you don't get 

570
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:06,600
that Q, it means that you're not
understand. 

571
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,100
So that's the behavior 
understanding from different 

572
00:25:08,100 --> 00:25:10,100
cultures. 
Now, assume that two different 

573
00:25:10,100 --> 00:25:12,600
orchestras to work together. 
So that's how like organizations

574
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:14,200
are like working. 
There are so many orchestras 

575
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:16,400
happening and this be a marshal 
coordinator. 

576
00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:18,900
That becomes extremely hard. 
So that's why you need to allow 

577
00:25:18,900 --> 00:25:22,800
the orchestra to be local enough
that a Run locally, but on the 

578
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:24,900
top, the music should be same 
because we are getting this 

579
00:25:24,900 --> 00:25:27,500
music at this level and let us 
create the same music. 

580
00:25:27,700 --> 00:25:30,100
The same thing. 
When you apply it back on the 

581
00:25:30,100 --> 00:25:32,300
rowing of Port. 
The same thing will not apply 

582
00:25:32,300 --> 00:25:36,000
because in an orchestra versus 
both in rowing their eight 

583
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,700
people as soon as you change one
person all the time, the person 

584
00:25:38,700 --> 00:25:40,700
space will be different than all
the other people because they 

585
00:25:40,700 --> 00:25:43,200
are practicing a different vote 
when they do the rowing. 

586
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,400
Again. 
The interesting part is their 

587
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,700
base is going to be different 
and all the other seven people 

588
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:49,800
are going to change their pay is
just for that one person. 

589
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,000
And that's how the collaboration
He's now just assume and apply 

590
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,300
the same rule back into in 
Orchestra. 

591
00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,000
Assume that the person is 
playing drums, can all the whole

592
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,100
organization Hall the whole 
Orchestra change, its tail to 

593
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:03,300
match. 
It pays for Tempo to Drums know,

594
00:26:03,300 --> 00:26:05,400
we can't. 
So which means one thing that's 

595
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,000
common at. 
Both the SEC, did observe the 

596
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,100
behavior and change it yourself,
but there are like 

597
00:26:09,100 --> 00:26:11,700
organizational principles and 
cultural commonest. 

598
00:26:11,700 --> 00:26:14,500
Very, you need to learn that and
then adjust yourself. 

599
00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:16,600
That's one thing and you need to
give onboarding time, like, both

600
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:19,500
the places you need to give them
balance to understand the 

601
00:26:19,500 --> 00:26:21,100
onboarding phase, then keep on 
improving. 

602
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,100
Continuously. 
So, is there any such practices 

603
00:26:24,100 --> 00:26:25,800
like you can speed up this 
onboarding time? 

604
00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:29,000
Obviously, we want every new 
Joiner to be productive maybe in

605
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,000
the first few weeks or first few
months. 

606
00:26:31,100 --> 00:26:34,300
Is it something like culture 
guidance books, or documents 

607
00:26:34,300 --> 00:26:36,800
where they can go through? 
I know it's probably not going 

608
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,500
to be that easy as well. 
But are there some practices 

609
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:42,400
that actually you can use to 
actually speed up this process? 

610
00:26:43,100 --> 00:26:45,900
What we do, which was more 
efficient, was to bear and then 

611
00:26:45,900 --> 00:26:47,900
also promote travel. 
So, first thing I'll talk about 

612
00:26:47,900 --> 00:26:50,200
pairing people. 
So any news on Ava comes from a 

613
00:26:50,208 --> 00:26:52,900
completely different culture. 
ER, one is that we spend time on

614
00:26:52,900 --> 00:26:55,300
making them understand about the
culture, which means spend some 

615
00:26:55,300 --> 00:26:57,800
time with different people. 
Give them onboarding, tell these

616
00:26:57,800 --> 00:26:59,200
how this works. 
This of this world. 

617
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,300
Say you need to do that. 
This how you do and all that 

618
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:03,100
part is really hard. 
Because right now we have most 

619
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:06,200
of us are on working remotely 
which means we use basically 

620
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,000
slack as an online collaboration
tool and a lot of things will be

621
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,300
based on the channels that you 
are there and how people behave 

622
00:27:12,300 --> 00:27:14,400
their online and you watch 
people in the cause. 

623
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:17,100
But apart from that we set up a 
lot of calls to onboard them 

624
00:27:17,100 --> 00:27:20,100
into the system, give them some 
icebreakers and make them 

625
00:27:20,100 --> 00:27:22,400
comfortable while Means and 
other things. 

626
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:25,500
But after that, the other thing 
that we understood was for them 

627
00:27:25,500 --> 00:27:27,400
to be able to interact or work 
with other person. 

628
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:29,400
So Shadow them or make them 
comfortable. 

629
00:27:29,500 --> 00:27:32,500
So a lot of people to move 
across with a different random 

630
00:27:32,500 --> 00:27:35,000
people who will be like playing 
a plea most of time at least 

631
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:37,600
similar laws because they know 
what that kind of role expects 

632
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,100
and the whole way in each day 
looks like and one most 

633
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:42,500
interesting thing that at least 
I do whatever singing was even 

634
00:27:42,500 --> 00:27:45,100
before releasing the offer, I'll
just tell the household d looks 

635
00:27:45,100 --> 00:27:47,200
like, so that they will, at 
least try to understand that 

636
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,000
this of my do. 
It looks like, is it exiting? 

637
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,700
Not exciting. 
Should I join or not? 

638
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,700
People may not like the kind of 
expectation that we have on 

639
00:27:53,700 --> 00:27:54,800
learning. 
It's fine. 

640
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,300
At least after joining taking 
the dish in as as you know, that

641
00:27:57,300 --> 00:27:59,200
this is expectation. 
That you have every week. 

642
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:01,300
You need to do this or learn 
this, they will know that. 

643
00:28:01,300 --> 00:28:02,500
Okay? 
And committing to this and 

644
00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:04,600
joining rather than, I don't 
know the space and joining. 

645
00:28:04,700 --> 00:28:06,900
So it starts before joining. 
Of course, we do all the 

646
00:28:06,900 --> 00:28:08,900
interviews, but after that, 
there is onboarding. 

647
00:28:08,900 --> 00:28:11,600
And after that allow people to 
mingle or pair up with a lot of 

648
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,200
people, Shadow and different 
people on different pages, so 

649
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:15,500
you should give them time to 
digest. 

650
00:28:15,500 --> 00:28:17,700
We cannot say that by following 
this x process. 

651
00:28:17,700 --> 00:28:20,900
All of them will be improved by 
like say from 15 days to 10 

652
00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:21,700
days. 
Won't happen. 

653
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:23,600
Maybe for a few people. 
It will be just two days or 

654
00:28:23,608 --> 00:28:25,300
three days for few to be 
different. 

655
00:28:25,300 --> 00:28:28,100
So allow them to give that space
and be okay with it. 

656
00:28:28,100 --> 00:28:30,300
I think it's more from people 
who are sort process 

657
00:28:30,300 --> 00:28:32,000
perspective. 
So one interesting thing that I 

658
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,500
learned T is a lot of times we 
come from with this engineering 

659
00:28:34,500 --> 00:28:37,600
mindset and if a company is 
dominated by a lot of Engineers,

660
00:28:37,700 --> 00:28:39,800
we try to think everything 
rationally, when you are 

661
00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:41,900
rational all the time, it won't 
work like that, especially with 

662
00:28:41,900 --> 00:28:43,300
people. 
So you have to apply some 

663
00:28:43,300 --> 00:28:44,900
relation, which means you can't 
say that. 

664
00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:48,200
Doing x y, z will give you 
something else. 

665
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:50,100
Always it won't happen. 
It's a variable mix. 

666
00:28:50,300 --> 00:28:52,600
So it's a I'm right. 
Like you can't take a starting, 

667
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,000
put it in a different company in
the expert. 

668
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:55,600
The star results. 
No, it won't happen. 

669
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,900
We are a part of like very small
part of a very big system. 

670
00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:00,100
And there are like a lot of 
Dynamics within the system that 

671
00:29:00,100 --> 00:29:02,200
gets obstructed when you do all 
those exemptions. 

672
00:29:02,300 --> 00:29:04,500
So sometimes it's okay to be 
rational and allow them to 

673
00:29:04,500 --> 00:29:06,900
absorb that and then learn that,
that accommodation should be 

674
00:29:06,900 --> 00:29:08,700
there like for accommodation you
have pills. 

675
00:29:08,700 --> 00:29:09,900
You can take and take the 
shortcut. 

676
00:29:09,900 --> 00:29:12,400
That's fine. 
But for this, I don't think 

677
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:15,300
there is pills but it's more 
effective and being conscious 

678
00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:17,500
and then respecting them 
improvising them connecting with

679
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:19,200
them. 
And then taking feedback from 

680
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,100
this also important because one 
of the Great Father, they have 

681
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:25,200
which we all don't have, will be
a new pair of ice on which they 

682
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,400
will all start looking each 
other until one interesting 

683
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:29,500
thing that I learned. 
So when we started Everest, 

684
00:29:29,500 --> 00:29:32,200
initially the small and then 
few, we were all sitting the 

685
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:34,600
same table when we wanted to go 
and have tea or coffee. 

686
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,000
So, T is like a common thing. 
Here. 

687
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:38,500
We take tea breaks frequently 
like at least three times a day 

688
00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:41,200
and we used to go and drink and 
come back after we scale to like

689
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,500
20 conflict people. 
It is hard because all 20 people

690
00:29:43,500 --> 00:29:45,800
could not go at the same time. 
So we said, hey, can we move the

691
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:47,800
tee back here? 
And then we started ordering tea

692
00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:51,700
and every day at particular time
you get, Marty didn't X2 times 

693
00:29:51,700 --> 00:29:53,100
more the morning once. 
And then evening, then this 

694
00:29:53,100 --> 00:29:55,900
class you take the T. 
Then we grew up to 40 people. 

695
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:58,100
Suddenly somebody came. 
And then like, at least we 

696
00:29:58,100 --> 00:29:59,700
follow the habit of what is good
for you. 

697
00:29:59,700 --> 00:30:01,500
What can be improved, that's the
feedback that we keep 

698
00:30:01,500 --> 00:30:03,700
continuously. 
And when we ask that person 

699
00:30:03,700 --> 00:30:05,400
said, hey, why don't you drink 
coffee? 

700
00:30:05,500 --> 00:30:07,000
And then I said, what do you 
mean by that? 

701
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:08,500
I drink coffee then, they set in
office. 

702
00:30:08,500 --> 00:30:10,700
There's no coffee. 
Then, that's the first time. 

703
00:30:10,700 --> 00:30:12,700
We realize that there's no 
coffee because we didn't have 

704
00:30:12,700 --> 00:30:15,100
the fresh pair of eyes and every
division that they only serve 

705
00:30:15,100 --> 00:30:17,800
tea here or something like that,
then instantly then, and there 

706
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,200
we make it shoot it from next. 
A coffee is there, we took a 

707
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,700
voting and then we His own 
people, drink coffee, how many 

708
00:30:22,700 --> 00:30:23,800
people will drink tree. 
Then? 

709
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,500
We started getting too fast. 
This may be simple example, but 

710
00:30:26,500 --> 00:30:28,200
you can be applied at the 
organization level when you 

711
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,500
scale and see hundred things 
that you provide with this 

712
00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:32,500
level. 
The same Japanese concept of 

713
00:30:32,500 --> 00:30:34,500
Kaizen applies lot better. 
Yeah. 

714
00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:37,700
I also learn similar concept 
called radical Candor when you 

715
00:30:37,700 --> 00:30:40,200
give feedback as candid as 
possible, maybe at the right 

716
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,500
time obviously and give examples
as well. 

717
00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:44,100
What? 
You had as an example. 

718
00:30:44,100 --> 00:30:46,100
It's about coffee right? 
You had no coffee. 

719
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:48,900
It's not about the person 
doesn't respect coffee drinker, 

720
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:50,300
right? 
But sometimes it's just okay. 

721
00:30:50,300 --> 00:30:51,300
We just didn't realize. 
Eli's. 

722
00:30:51,300 --> 00:30:54,200
That actually, it's a habitual 
thing that we always take tea 

723
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,300
and nobody asked for a coffee 
anyway, so sometimes it's just a

724
00:30:57,308 --> 00:31:00,300
simple candid feedback that 
actually can spark us to make a 

725
00:31:00,300 --> 00:31:02,000
change. 
Actually, quite intrigued with 

726
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,600
the orchestra parallel, that you
gave. 

727
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,600
When we talk about this 
orchestration. 

728
00:31:06,700 --> 00:31:08,900
I always assume like going back 
to the architecture. 

729
00:31:08,900 --> 00:31:11,500
Principles orchestration versus 
choreography. 

730
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:15,100
Do you have any take on that? 
Is that a place for choreography

731
00:31:15,100 --> 00:31:17,500
in collaboration? 
We didn't scalable teams. 

732
00:31:17,900 --> 00:31:19,600
Can you expand on? 
What could it really means? 

733
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:20,800
Just to be clear, the 
choreography? 

734
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,200
Orchestration. 
The defense. 

735
00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:25,400
Yeah, so the orchestra normally 
is to have somebody like 

736
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:29,100
orchestrator or conductor who 
actually guides the people 

737
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,300
within the team to actually do 
their parts. 

738
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:35,100
While choreography is like in 
the dance performance in a team 

739
00:31:35,100 --> 00:31:37,500
of group performance. 
You have people who actually 

740
00:31:37,500 --> 00:31:41,300
perform as what they think would
make a beautiful than. 

741
00:31:41,300 --> 00:31:42,900
So everybody knows what they 
need to do. 

742
00:31:42,900 --> 00:31:46,500
There's no single orchestrator. 
There's no single Master you can

743
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:47,600
call it in the distributed 
system. 

744
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,000
So everyone knows what they need
to do and perform beautifully. 

745
00:31:51,100 --> 00:31:52,900
We as a group. 
So that part is interesting 

746
00:31:52,900 --> 00:31:54,900
because I'll again, take another
balance compared to that. 

747
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,300
So let us take a focused on 
versus military group. 

748
00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:59,400
So let me complete on the 
orchestration, part of a 

749
00:31:59,408 --> 00:32:01,700
conductor and Orchestra. 
So, now to start the practice 

750
00:32:01,700 --> 00:32:04,500
every day, but they know that 
from the new things comes from 

751
00:32:04,500 --> 00:32:07,000
the conductor, which means 
conductor is not looking at any 

752
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,200
individuals mistake. 
The conductor is looking at a 

753
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,300
greater sum from all the 
individuals together, which 

754
00:32:11,300 --> 00:32:14,700
means is the music coming out. 
Well, is all the parts of the 

755
00:32:14,700 --> 00:32:16,700
team is doing really good or 
not. 

756
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,900
So that's their job. 
And the second job is to 

757
00:32:18,900 --> 00:32:20,700
identify where the noise is 
coming. 

758
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:22,900
And To find you need. 
So that's why they're putting 

759
00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:24,000
the second effort. 
As soon. 

760
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,900
As you take the connector out 
many times. 

761
00:32:25,900 --> 00:32:29,100
If you see an orchestra, a 
general exemption is, what are 

762
00:32:29,100 --> 00:32:30,600
they just where they just moving
the hands? 

763
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,700
Is it really required? 
But to come to that level and 

764
00:32:33,700 --> 00:32:37,000
for that Orchestra performance 
to have stand-up Ovation, they 

765
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,400
would have practiced for at 
least few years, takes a 

766
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,400
thousands of hours of practice. 
We are just seeing the final 

767
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:43,000
output. 
There. 

768
00:32:43,100 --> 00:32:44,500
We are. 
Not just seeing what has 

769
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:46,300
happened in the back and apart 
from that. 

770
00:32:46,300 --> 00:32:48,700
A lot of times. 
We humans tend to obviously make

771
00:32:48,700 --> 00:32:50,900
mistakes here and there we 
create bugs in software. 

772
00:32:51,500 --> 00:32:54,300
When we go back and see 
Orchestra, the thing is that's 

773
00:32:54,300 --> 00:32:57,000
where this conductor is playing 
a wonderful role of watching 

774
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:58,800
around seeing. 
Hey, that's where the noise is 

775
00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:00,300
coming. 
So you need to change it and 

776
00:33:00,300 --> 00:33:02,800
every time they do that so they 
are not redundant first thing. 

777
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,000
So that's not a bad model. 
Let us take military. 

778
00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:06,400
There is a similarity that 
happens. 

779
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:09,300
Both places are actually 
practicing, but in Orchestra, 

780
00:33:09,300 --> 00:33:11,800
when they go to the stage, 
there's no difference between 

781
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:14,600
what's happening in the stage 
and what they practice. 

782
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,400
The only difference that they 
are seeing is audience, if you 

783
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:19,600
play Bad, Orchestra, probably 
the throw something at you. 

784
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,700
But apart from that, the 
Exemption is there is no chaos 

785
00:33:22,700 --> 00:33:25,200
being introduced by the audience
themselves, that's guaranteed. 

786
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,100
But if you take a marine or like
a military group, they are 

787
00:33:28,100 --> 00:33:30,600
practicing the same way that 
August respecting every day. 

788
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,100
They do the same drills. 
They are practicing or 

789
00:33:33,100 --> 00:33:36,200
choreographing, Jesse moves, the
parking, how to shoot do things.

790
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:38,300
But when they go to the field, 
things are not going to be 

791
00:33:38,300 --> 00:33:40,100
saying. 
So what they are going to do is 

792
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:43,600
they're going to try to think 
about all the possible options 

793
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:45,800
in which this team is going to 
be disintegrated. 

794
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:48,300
And also see all the possible 
options in which you will be 

795
00:33:48,300 --> 00:33:50,200
injured and how to get back 
safe. 

796
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,700
But also, Intermission. 
So those two are like really 

797
00:33:52,700 --> 00:33:54,900
interesting joins. 
The lot of other Palace I have 

798
00:33:54,900 --> 00:33:58,300
like this palette is really good
because in military, they trying

799
00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:01,000
with always having that thing in
mind, that, okay, even if I do 

800
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,800
all this practice still, there 
is some edge cases, which I 

801
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:06,900
don't know, because people play 
strategies and that's how 

802
00:34:06,900 --> 00:34:09,800
organizations would say. 
You have the best team with 

803
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,500
yourself. 
And then you formed a very, very

804
00:34:11,699 --> 00:34:13,900
we know, like wonderful startups
that are formed with wonderful 

805
00:34:13,900 --> 00:34:17,100
Founders and they have the 
world's best ever code written. 

806
00:34:17,300 --> 00:34:20,500
And they have the best UI that 
they are built with all those 

807
00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:22,500
things. 
The still fail because they're 

808
00:34:22,500 --> 00:34:24,699
part of a really small system 
and they don't know how it works

809
00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:27,300
and all those things. 
So, a grand scale of things can 

810
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:28,800
also see a lot of companies 
then. 

811
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:30,199
They were like, very small, they
are very good. 

812
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:32,800
But the, as you start expanding 
the same curves, get added, 

813
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:34,800
because you don't know, like as 
soon as one person joins, what 

814
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:36,600
care of the introduced or like, 
what changes. 

815
00:34:37,300 --> 00:34:40,300
So, everybody introduce gets 
some entropy to the system and 

816
00:34:40,300 --> 00:34:42,699
that entropy cause some noise as
the noise increases. 

817
00:34:42,699 --> 00:34:45,199
You need to create ad and 
conductor at some level to keep 

818
00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:48,000
on watching the noise. 
So, I cannot generalize saying 

819
00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:50,699
that, because the same example, 
I said, orchestration there and 

820
00:34:50,699 --> 00:34:53,900
then Orchestration in anbu. 
Route, versus in military are 

821
00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:56,300
all different things. 
We cannot take something in one 

822
00:34:56,300 --> 00:34:58,700
company and an applied there. 
But what we can do is we can 

823
00:34:58,700 --> 00:35:02,100
find patterns and then do it. 
For example, if you go to Japan 

824
00:35:02,100 --> 00:35:04,500
and then you see another company
doing this and then trying to 

825
00:35:04,500 --> 00:35:06,400
learn from their improvements. 
You can definitely do that. 

826
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,200
That's absolutely fine. 
But if you take that same thing,

827
00:35:09,300 --> 00:35:11,500
I think this is what a lot of 
people do on go wrong. 

828
00:35:11,700 --> 00:35:13,000
There is a successful us 
company. 

829
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,100
For example, they want to set up
company in India. 

830
00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:17,600
Many times. 
I have seen a lot of examples, 

831
00:35:17,700 --> 00:35:19,900
they come in, they do rehiring 
in the same way. 

832
00:35:19,908 --> 00:35:22,400
They do it there. 
Then they do set up the 

833
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:24,100
management structure in the same
way. 

834
00:35:24,100 --> 00:35:25,900
It is done there. 
In fact, they also give you a 

835
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:29,500
lot of benefits here and put all
this fancy places and 

836
00:35:29,500 --> 00:35:31,700
everything. 
Do you like Rock Solid salaries?

837
00:35:31,900 --> 00:35:34,600
But if you see the throughput, 
it comes really, really bad. 

838
00:35:34,900 --> 00:35:37,200
So there are two things that we 
can think one is he u.s. 

839
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,600
People are like a lot more 
efficient than the Indian team, 

840
00:35:39,700 --> 00:35:42,000
maybe at a scale of things. 
I don't know because whom you 

841
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,500
hired is up to you. 
But when you again, take up the 

842
00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:46,700
same teams and then put them 
together in one room. 

843
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:49,600
Like, say if you form a team 
with five people from us, five 

844
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:50,900
people from India and then come 
home. 

845
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:53,300
Mom, probably it works. 
They'll write like, you never 

846
00:35:53,300 --> 00:35:55,000
see too much TV. 
So why is that working? 

847
00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,400
But why is this not working? 
This one is failing. 

848
00:35:57,500 --> 00:36:00,100
I've seen people who burn like a
million and then start setup, do

849
00:36:00,100 --> 00:36:02,600
all those things and then close 
it off after that and said, hey,

850
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,200
the problem of this is managing.
This is too much, operational, 

851
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,300
overhead. 
So, they end up closing up those

852
00:36:07,300 --> 00:36:09,400
offices. 
So, the learning there is, you 

853
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,300
can't just copy the same thing 
systems at scale. 

854
00:36:11,300 --> 00:36:13,700
So you can't say that this. 
I got 10 x, you can get, like, 

855
00:36:13,700 --> 00:36:15,600
20 x by doing this. 
No, you need to understand the 

856
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:17,800
local culture and do what is 
exactly right for that. 

857
00:36:18,100 --> 00:36:20,600
And one important thing there 
is, you need to find an amazing 

858
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,600
locally. 
A lot of times you find that one

859
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:24,000
leader. 
There'll be like a considerable 

860
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,500
amount of difference, and they 
bring in a lot of other leaders 

861
00:36:26,500 --> 00:36:28,300
of the grow, lot of leaders. 
And ultimately, the whole our 

862
00:36:28,300 --> 00:36:30,400
mission is to serve. 
All I did not give you exact 

863
00:36:30,400 --> 00:36:33,400
answer, but my general answer is
you have to work both local and 

864
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:36,100
global scale and that's how it 
scales and we can't take these 

865
00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,500
endless also directly apply, but
you can take those patterns of 

866
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:40,000
improvement and do things like 
that. 

867
00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,400
So I like when you mention that 
one of the conductor's tasks is 

868
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:47,500
actually to find out noise and 
fine-tune the output of the 

869
00:36:47,500 --> 00:36:50,600
individuals, probably or the 
parts of the systems to actually

870
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,800
find you. 
In them maybe repair or maybe 

871
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:55,600
just align back to what they're 
supposed to do in order to 

872
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,100
produce a unified output. 
So I think this is also a good 

873
00:36:59,100 --> 00:37:02,800
parallel or the role of managers
or managers of managers. 

874
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,100
You have a chain of managers 
within the company, but 

875
00:37:05,100 --> 00:37:07,500
oftentimes, I think fine-tuning 
this noise. 

876
00:37:07,500 --> 00:37:10,200
It's not easy. 
There are communication problem,

877
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,300
like what you mentioned and also
the trust problem. 

878
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:15,900
So, in your opinion, what does 
it take to be a good conductor 

879
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,700
or to be a good manager? 
In that sense? 

880
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:20,700
It's an interesting question. 
So we're talking about two 

881
00:37:20,700 --> 00:37:22,400
things. 
A lot of times, there are 

882
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,700
managers, and there are like 
leaders, and there are people 

883
00:37:24,700 --> 00:37:27,200
who are good leaders, and 
managers so many times. 

884
00:37:27,200 --> 00:37:29,300
What is the role of a manager? 
The role of the manager is to 

885
00:37:29,300 --> 00:37:32,800
find out things and then make it
more efficient in the case of 

886
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,400
again, sticking back to 
Orchestra. 

887
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:37,100
If it is a manager, the manager 
will get more throughput from 

888
00:37:37,100 --> 00:37:38,700
individuals and make it more 
efficient. 

889
00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:40,500
Hey, can we make more shows by 
doing this? 

890
00:37:40,500 --> 00:37:43,300
Can we make it more efficient? 
Can you do practice more? 

891
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,100
You apply, this technique and 
this improves, but if you just 

892
00:37:46,100 --> 00:37:48,500
move from little bit outside 
from there, and then if you 

893
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,000
assume that they're just the 
leader, then the leader says I I

894
00:37:51,008 --> 00:37:52,900
want good music. 
That is the direction in which I

895
00:37:52,908 --> 00:37:56,400
am moving and this music is good
for a lot of people and it takes

896
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,700
us in a positive direction. 
So let us all do good music and 

897
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:01,700
they're just standing and 
watching they're just giving you

898
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:03,200
a direction and setting you 
apart. 

899
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:05,200
That's it. 
Now take a person who is a 

900
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,400
leader and a manager so that 
person sets up the direction 

901
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,400
saying that hey the music that 
we are all producing right now, 

902
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,300
is really bad. 
It's not even close to what we 

903
00:38:14,300 --> 00:38:17,900
are trying to reach and we all 
can agree that you're amazing. 

904
00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:19,600
We don't have any problem with 
our talent. 

905
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,000
So the skills there is no issue.
Maybe there's a motivation 

906
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:24,000
issue. 
So they look at that layer and 

907
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,000
try to understand. 
I'll expand on that mode. 

908
00:38:26,100 --> 00:38:29,200
But understanding not only just 
the direction but also improving

909
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,800
the total performance of the 
team at different levels is 

910
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:33,600
important. 
So let us take managers at 

911
00:38:33,600 --> 00:38:35,400
different levels. 
When I say to manages. 

912
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:37,500
Let us use the word leaders when
I'm saying leaders. 

913
00:38:37,500 --> 00:38:40,100
They are also good managers. 
So we take a very, very Jewish 

914
00:38:40,100 --> 00:38:42,100
manager. 
The first thing is, obviously, 

915
00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:43,900
their motivation levels are 
really high because they are 

916
00:38:43,908 --> 00:38:46,700
very enthusiastic about the new 
job and all those things and 

917
00:38:46,700 --> 00:38:49,000
they start picking up different 
tasks and try to get things 

918
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:50,600
done. 
And so, they are also learning 

919
00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:52,000
the true. 
Which means they're like as 

920
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,900
anxious that as the team is also
anxious. 

921
00:38:53,900 --> 00:38:55,500
And sometimes when you're 
promoted within the same 

922
00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:57,800
organization, one of the peers 
whom you are, like just having 

923
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:00,000
the simple connection becomes a 
little bit different because 

924
00:39:00,000 --> 00:39:02,200
they start thinking, hey, are 
you talking as a friend, or are 

925
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:02,800
you talking? 
It is manager. 

926
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,000
So there are multiple dogs are a
lot of things that we can go in 

927
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,600
detail, but I don't want to go 
really in detail, but I like to 

928
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,100
make it more abstract or in caps
ready to let us keep it simple 

929
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,500
when you started as a manager 
and then you progress as a 

930
00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:13,500
leader. 
There are three things that 

931
00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:16,300
happens in the beginning. 
You're just focusing at the 

932
00:39:16,300 --> 00:39:18,200
techniques level. 
That is the level at, which you 

933
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,300
are working the second level 
when I see. 

934
00:39:20,300 --> 00:39:22,600
So all these Like my opinion, I 
don't say this. 

935
00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:24,600
Not, this doesn't have any 
scientific proof. 

936
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:25,900
So you have to take it with that
task. 

937
00:39:25,900 --> 00:39:28,500
So first a set of managers or 
set of a couple of years, very 

938
00:39:28,500 --> 00:39:30,400
Junior, but they are like 
looking at a technique level, 

939
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:32,800
like, more these changes do 
this, this will happen and we'll

940
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:34,400
see improvements because that's 
a technique level. 

941
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:36,700
The second set of managers. 
They are leaders. 

942
00:39:36,900 --> 00:39:40,200
They work at a level of changing
the form, which means they work 

943
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,600
at at people core level, 
understanding them trying to 

944
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,300
make them improve at that core 
level and enable them to become 

945
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,300
better. 
So when they start doing that, 

946
00:39:47,300 --> 00:39:49,600
then automatically the 
performance and other things, 

947
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,900
improves a different stage. 
So, that's other stage of 

948
00:39:51,900 --> 00:39:54,300
leaders. 
Then I see really excellent ones

949
00:39:54,300 --> 00:39:56,100
who are like they work at a 
psychological level. 

950
00:39:56,100 --> 00:39:58,600
I can say, so they set up dreams
but they are not like just 

951
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,300
stopping there. 
The have an exact Clarity on the

952
00:40:01,300 --> 00:40:04,100
direction and they also motivate
and take people to that level. 

953
00:40:04,300 --> 00:40:05,900
These are the people who can 
just take really 

954
00:40:05,900 --> 00:40:08,300
underperforming. 
Team make some modification move

955
00:40:08,300 --> 00:40:11,700
people around remove people add 
people but finally they will get

956
00:40:11,700 --> 00:40:13,900
them to a level that you would 
not have imagined you get the 

957
00:40:13,900 --> 00:40:15,300
10x productivity or something 
like that. 

958
00:40:15,300 --> 00:40:17,300
But also people are happy. 
He managers can give you 

959
00:40:17,308 --> 00:40:19,400
protected your own but still 
people are not happy, but these 

960
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:20,500
people are like a different 
level. 

961
00:40:20,500 --> 00:40:21,800
We're not. 
Making you ready product? 

962
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:23,900
You but you are happy and Moody 
much motivated and you're 

963
00:40:23,900 --> 00:40:26,200
feeling it as a group. 
So when you said go a good 

964
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,200
leader, I would say. 
This is a journey that most 

965
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,400
people take and is very hard. 
Also to start directly at 

966
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,600
psychological with these things,
get through the experience. 

967
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:35,100
What do you think? 
Are some of those attributes are

968
00:40:35,100 --> 00:40:38,500
those core skills of such 
inspirational or psychological 

969
00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:39,500
leaders? 
You call them. 

970
00:40:39,500 --> 00:40:41,400
So, are some of the skills that 
they have? 

971
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,300
I've experienced some of those 
leaders in my career as well. 

972
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:47,800
Vision obviously is one thing 
but Vision, Without proper 

973
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,800
guidance or direction is also 
not working in the sense that 

974
00:40:50,900 --> 00:40:53,700
Coming back to your manager, 
fascist leader analogy there. 

975
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:56,300
So what do you think are some of
these may be attributes or maybe

976
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,000
core skills that they have or 
maybe some psychological 

977
00:40:59,100 --> 00:41:02,700
expertise that they have what 
makes them such a more impactful

978
00:41:02,700 --> 00:41:05,500
leader benefit from good 
examples of people. 

979
00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,800
So again, obviously didn't work 
with them. 

980
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:09,400
But let us take Walt Disney. 
So one of the things that you 

981
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,100
would observe with Walt 
Disney's, The Dream is really be

982
00:41:11,100 --> 00:41:13,100
very, very big. 
They are not just talking but 

983
00:41:13,100 --> 00:41:14,800
they know their stuff really, 
really well. 

984
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:16,600
That is very, very cool level. 
They know, most of the things, 

985
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:18,500
they know the Trends. 
They know what's coming up, but 

986
00:41:18,500 --> 00:41:20,800
they are like top launch leaders
in their own industry. 

987
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,800
And that gives them an unfair 
Advantage compared to a lot of 

988
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:24,900
other leaders that you get, 
like. 

989
00:41:24,900 --> 00:41:27,300
You can't hire somebody else's 
from the outset Industries or a 

990
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,800
leader and put them against top.
Sports manager, cannot come into

991
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:33,100
Walt Disney's place in Disney 
and unchanged. 

992
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:35,500
Disney, that won't happen. 
So what happens is? 

993
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:38,100
These people, one of the things 
that I see let us take again, 

994
00:41:38,100 --> 00:41:41,000
two examples, like Steve Jobs, 
for example, a greater stake in 

995
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,800
run. 
A, we also the lot of leaders 

996
00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,100
whom we can look up to but one 
thing that you see common across

997
00:41:46,100 --> 00:41:48,100
these leaders are that level 
when we are talking about it, 

998
00:41:48,100 --> 00:41:49,500
like really, really very good 
level. 

999
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,600
There are working a difference. 
Scale of understanding their 

1000
00:41:52,600 --> 00:41:54,200
actual expertise is very very 
deep. 

1001
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,500
They know their course the 
quotient or very very strong. 

1002
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:58,800
There are very few things that 
may not know but they're always 

1003
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:00,500
anxious learning things. 
So they're always giving 

1004
00:42:00,500 --> 00:42:01,900
themselves. 
However, the second thing is 

1005
00:42:01,900 --> 00:42:05,400
they are like very good day of 
expressing the concept like back

1006
00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:06,800
as so. 
These the dreams lot of people 

1007
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:09,700
have twins and then you can come
and tell somebody saying that I 

1008
00:42:09,700 --> 00:42:13,100
want to build a company which 
has a lot better movies and 

1009
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:15,800
Disney, but the point is, you 
can't just be very abstract and 

1010
00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:17,700
that you need to understand that
to be very cool level. 

1011
00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:19,700
So, that's one thing that I 
said, the second one is, they 

1012
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:22,400
are very good at delegations. 
Not of people, I work with these

1013
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,600
are people again, and not just 
comparing because I didn't 

1014
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,100
obviously involved with Steve, 
but lot of really respectful 

1015
00:42:27,100 --> 00:42:28,800
leaders have worked with, they 
have very good delegation 

1016
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,000
framework. 
So they give you Direction and 

1017
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:33,400
they also give you all the 
freedom within the framework, 

1018
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:35,900
saying that, this is something 
that you have to do, but this is

1019
00:42:35,900 --> 00:42:38,100
within this framework. 
So I learnt it from the pretty 

1020
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:39,400
good leader. 
I cope with his name is called 

1021
00:42:39,400 --> 00:42:41,700
Craig Fulton. 
He was amazing in this thing. 

1022
00:42:41,700 --> 00:42:44,800
Be used to really give me the 
direction but the delegation was

1023
00:42:44,800 --> 00:42:46,800
very clear that the norm. 
So it is the budget that you 

1024
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:48,200
have. 
You can't cross this budget. 

1025
00:42:48,300 --> 00:42:49,700
This is the timeline that you 
have. 

1026
00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:52,000
These are the internships. 
Points that you can do the 

1027
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:53,900
accountability boundaries are 
also very clear. 

1028
00:42:53,900 --> 00:42:56,300
They said, things are very 
clearly by doing delegation. 

1029
00:42:56,300 --> 00:42:58,000
So delegation is not a very easy
task. 

1030
00:42:58,100 --> 00:42:59,500
The third thing. 
They are very good teams. 

1031
00:42:59,500 --> 00:43:01,800
Of course, you can't have a very
bad team or like, police the 

1032
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,600
team that they work with are all
working together. 

1033
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:04,900
They are like part of the same 
Orchestra. 

1034
00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:06,300
They are not getting so much 
noise. 

1035
00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:08,100
So with that again, it's very 
hard to work. 

1036
00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:10,100
If they find noise. 
Well, again, obviously remove 

1037
00:43:10,100 --> 00:43:12,200
the noise and bring in the right
people to make that music 

1038
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:14,400
proper. 
So let's go back to your company

1039
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,500
FS engineering. 
So you founded. 

1040
00:43:16,500 --> 00:43:19,800
This company came up from your 
so-called inspirational Journey 

1041
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:22,100
at Mount Everest. 
What is so different about 

1042
00:43:22,100 --> 00:43:24,100
efforts, engineering? 
Maybe you can tell us about the 

1043
00:43:24,100 --> 00:43:27,500
culture, what kind of leadership
that you show their inside the 

1044
00:43:27,508 --> 00:43:30,300
company, I'll do a scale on 
which we are working right now. 

1045
00:43:30,300 --> 00:43:32,300
So that people have an idea on 
what skill you're looking. 

1046
00:43:32,300 --> 00:43:35,300
So we're not like really big 
exactly in four days. 

1047
00:43:35,300 --> 00:43:37,900
We are like two years just 
before covid-19 around less than

1048
00:43:37,908 --> 00:43:41,300
one out of here and we went from
one employee to around 75 people

1049
00:43:41,300 --> 00:43:43,800
that was in three cities. 
One is in Bangalore, other one 

1050
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:45,400
is Hyderabad. 
The other one is in Australia, 

1051
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:47,100
Melbourne, right now. 
After copy. 

1052
00:43:47,100 --> 00:43:49,000
We slow down a hiring. 
But eventually we started again.

1053
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,100
So right now we are 80 plus 
people and still Till we are 

1054
00:43:51,100 --> 00:43:52,700
scaling right now. 
So that's the scale on which we 

1055
00:43:52,700 --> 00:43:55,100
are working. 
What's very unique about it is 

1056
00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:57,800
so initially when we started I 
was all alone at the point. 

1057
00:43:57,800 --> 00:43:59,200
One thing. 
I thought was I really loved 

1058
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,700
making software, engineering 
better and I really wanted to 

1059
00:44:01,700 --> 00:44:05,100
just see things as problems and 
then solve them using software. 

1060
00:44:05,100 --> 00:44:07,000
One thing. 
I saw across the globe was a lot

1061
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:09,300
of people are moving towards, 
especially on the tech side on 

1062
00:44:09,300 --> 00:44:11,100
existing Technologies Haskell 
came in. 

1063
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:13,300
Okay, let us do it in Haskell. 
Hey go long is cool. 

1064
00:44:13,300 --> 00:44:16,200
Let us do it in: but a lot of 
times they're not understanding 

1065
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,200
the implications of it. 
I don't say that's bad, but are 

1066
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,700
using it as a right tool for, 
right? 

1067
00:44:21,100 --> 00:44:22,700
See, if you want to Traverse 
within the city. 

1068
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:25,300
You don't use airplanes, right? 
So I have seen people doing that

1069
00:44:25,300 --> 00:44:27,000
just because of Hadoop or 
school. 

1070
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:30,500
I saw people at the time using 
Hadoop for storing really small 

1071
00:44:30,500 --> 00:44:33,300
databases, which a simple 
postgres can handle like a very,

1072
00:44:33,300 --> 00:44:35,700
very small instance of 
persistent hundred and usually 

1073
00:44:35,700 --> 00:44:38,400
they go into that maintenance 
Nightmare and they struggle 

1074
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,300
meeting the cluster hiring more 
people, which is were button, 

1075
00:44:41,500 --> 00:44:44,200
which means a lot of aspects of 
software engineering that are 

1076
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,000
very, very simple. 
And can we improve the softening

1077
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,000
by building? 
A team around me, can be a 

1078
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:50,400
product or something. 
So that's why I started 

1079
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,800
actually. 
Didn't have like a very clear 

1080
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,200
vision of should I be in 
services or product and I didn't

1081
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,000
also have any product idea. 
So that was when I was one, but 

1082
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:59,300
usually I felt like, okay, let 
us work with people. 

1083
00:44:59,300 --> 00:45:00,900
Get them together and then see 
how it works. 

1084
00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:03,500
So that's where we got in more 
people and got another 

1085
00:45:03,500 --> 00:45:05,300
co-founder call Craig ground. 
So he's very good at 

1086
00:45:05,300 --> 00:45:07,000
collaboration. 
So started learning things from 

1087
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,500
him. 
Also, eventually we started 

1088
00:45:08,500 --> 00:45:11,800
forming smaller teams and bigger
things but one thing that State 

1089
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:15,000
Common from day one till now is,
we always believe you have to do

1090
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,700
better software engineering but 
software engineering again is 

1091
00:45:17,700 --> 00:45:20,600
interesting because there are 
trade-offs always any decision 

1092
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,800
that Take is always trade-offs 
different customers come with 

1093
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,900
different problem statements and
you cannot apply all the best 

1094
00:45:26,900 --> 00:45:28,300
practices. 
Of course for changing at any 

1095
00:45:28,300 --> 00:45:31,500
particular time as a developer. 
I can't compromise on quality, 

1096
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,200
but I can compromise on few 
things. 

1097
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:35,000
We want to build it in a smaller
system. 

1098
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,700
Fine. 
Do you want to do it with this 

1099
00:45:36,700 --> 00:45:38,400
limitations fine? 
You have a budget issue. 

1100
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,400
Fine, but Iraq or things like, 
can you write a simple data 

1101
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:44,200
script to run this and within 
one month, whatever it takes 

1102
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,700
just write a record, but I want 
distribute on probably we don't 

1103
00:45:46,700 --> 00:45:48,400
connect at all like in the 
company within ourselves. 

1104
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,200
Like when you go and tell them I
can we do this? 

1105
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,100
No. 
But everybody is aligned towards

1106
00:45:52,100 --> 00:45:55,000
we don't do tdd probably because
we want to do tdd, but always 

1107
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,500
you can't do that. 
But can we do like unit testing 

1108
00:45:57,500 --> 00:46:00,700
first and then probably like 
industry driven or like almost 

1109
00:46:00,700 --> 00:46:03,500
99% of the time. 
We always follow devops. 

1110
00:46:03,500 --> 00:46:05,700
The first thing that we do is 
make everything automated and 

1111
00:46:05,700 --> 00:46:08,400
put devops in place. 
So coming back on that. 

1112
00:46:08,500 --> 00:46:11,800
And again, one working that lot 
of people ignore is designed 

1113
00:46:11,900 --> 00:46:13,900
initially when we song, the 
companies are like around. 1020 

1114
00:46:13,900 --> 00:46:16,200
people, we worked on projects. 
We used to produce really good 

1115
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,100
code, but we were looking lot of
times the founders of you 

1116
00:46:19,100 --> 00:46:22,400
smaller startups and Thing that 
we found was, people is very 

1117
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:24,800
good engineering, but there are 
a lot of you, I was really bad. 

1118
00:46:24,800 --> 00:46:26,500
So the user behaviors were not 
very good. 

1119
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:29,200
So then we bought in designers 
and that's when we found, we are

1120
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,200
producing very good engines, but
not only just a sec. 

1121
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:33,900
The usability was very bad when 
designers came in and then we 

1122
00:46:33,900 --> 00:46:35,600
merge. 
The design is directly to the 

1123
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:38,400
teams at a very, very low level.
Then we start producing better 

1124
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:39,900
cars. 
Are better bikes that I can say.

1125
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,700
It has better usability better 
things, but I can do the 

1126
00:46:42,700 --> 00:46:44,400
limitations of the budget of the
customers and everything. 

1127
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:46,400
So that's one thing that we all 
connected. 

1128
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:49,100
We produce better software 
engineering quality with some of

1129
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:50,700
the core principles. 
So that's one thing. 

1130
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Thing. 
The second thing is 

1131
00:46:52,100 --> 00:46:53,500
accountability. 
So we don't compromise on 

1132
00:46:53,500 --> 00:46:55,000
accountability. 
People have like a lot of 

1133
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:56,700
freedom. 
It looks like a city, right? 

1134
00:46:56,700 --> 00:46:57,900
We thought of making it as a 
community. 

1135
00:46:57,900 --> 00:46:59,600
So from the beginning, even 
before covid, they're like, 

1136
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:01,800
remote first, which means you 
can choose TV remote like any 

1137
00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:03,800
time but to be removed. 
These are like the guidelines. 

1138
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,100
You can't skip that. 
You can't say that. 

1139
00:47:05,100 --> 00:47:07,400
I have too many power cuts, and 
I don't have power back up. 

1140
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,100
No, you can't do that. 
So you mentioned for the first 

1141
00:47:10,100 --> 00:47:13,200
so good software, engineering 
practices first, especially 

1142
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:15,900
within the remote setup. 
How do you ensure that such a 

1143
00:47:15,908 --> 00:47:18,400
good quality? 
Is a deer to by everyone in the 

1144
00:47:18,408 --> 00:47:21,900
company right in the team. 
Nothing is hiding itself. 

1145
00:47:21,900 --> 00:47:24,500
When you hire, you can't fire 
somebody who writes very, very 

1146
00:47:24,500 --> 00:47:26,500
bad code. 
Let us talk a little bit about 

1147
00:47:26,500 --> 00:47:28,000
hiring. 
So there are three dimension. 

1148
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,600
Hiring one is the skill set. 
The second one is the exposure 

1149
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,700
of the companies they work with 
and the third one is motivation.

1150
00:47:33,900 --> 00:47:36,500
So first thing, what are the 
existing skill sets that they 

1151
00:47:36,500 --> 00:47:38,700
have within the limited context 
of the companies that they work 

1152
00:47:38,700 --> 00:47:39,900
with? 
So you have to see both of them 

1153
00:47:39,900 --> 00:47:42,300
together. 
Some people are really extremely

1154
00:47:42,300 --> 00:47:44,100
motivated. 
If you put in a scale of 1 to 

1155
00:47:44,100 --> 00:47:45,900
10, their motivations are very, 
very high. 

1156
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:48,900
For example, if you take a 
company that whole technical 

1157
00:47:48,900 --> 00:47:50,700
architecture, everything will be
done by one person. 

1158
00:47:50,900 --> 00:47:53,300
And you are just allowed to only
execute on the cards. 

1159
00:47:53,700 --> 00:47:56,300
You're not supposed to give your
opinions or you're not supposed 

1160
00:47:56,300 --> 00:47:58,900
to learn bigger things. 
So you are seen at that level. 

1161
00:47:59,100 --> 00:48:00,700
How do you know they have? 
Like a lot of motivation. 

1162
00:48:00,900 --> 00:48:02,600
They always within that 
constraints. 

1163
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,000
They write very beautiful gold. 
So they write unit tests 

1164
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,200
properly. 
They follow develops as much as 

1165
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:10,000
possible when they do stuff. 
They automate things here. 

1166
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,500
Like some factors on which you 
can measure motivation and you 

1167
00:48:12,500 --> 00:48:14,900
know, that they are very, very 
motivated and they try to keep 

1168
00:48:14,900 --> 00:48:16,700
on learning things. 
And when you ask, do you do 

1169
00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:19,500
cries, obviously are making sure
that whatever works in my 

1170
00:48:19,500 --> 00:48:22,400
machine works everywhere else, 
so Like some basic fundamentals,

1171
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,800
which even if any company 
restricts you at some level you 

1172
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,800
can do it for yourself. 
Then you know that their motive 

1173
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,400
is a really high but their skill
sets are limited by the existing

1174
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:30,900
company. 
So they're not able to learn or 

1175
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:33,100
go beyond them. 
Then if you balance that you get

1176
00:48:33,100 --> 00:48:35,600
a very good higher but you also 
get other kind of people. 

1177
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,600
We are balanced on both 
motivation and their existing 

1178
00:48:37,600 --> 00:48:38,700
skills. 
It's as soon as you give them 

1179
00:48:38,700 --> 00:48:41,000
the coding Challenge on, try to 
see that code or give them a 

1180
00:48:41,008 --> 00:48:43,300
system design. 
The really good then you are 

1181
00:48:43,300 --> 00:48:46,100
like, this is the right person, 
that's very easy because you 

1182
00:48:46,100 --> 00:48:48,100
know that the onboarding time 
will be less, but as I told you 

1183
00:48:48,107 --> 00:48:50,600
in the beginning, non-voting, 
time you need to give balance 

1184
00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,300
for Some like some people have 
like more motivation. 

1185
00:48:52,300 --> 00:48:54,700
So you have to fit in their 
motivation to come to that level

1186
00:48:54,700 --> 00:48:56,800
and then match them with other 
people who are like really 

1187
00:48:56,800 --> 00:48:58,800
already there and then go to the
next element. 

1188
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,100
So, first thing, we started with
hiring and making sure that is 

1189
00:49:02,100 --> 00:49:04,600
not compromised so much. 
And obviously when you do hire, 

1190
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:07,200
you also make some mistakes. 
So there is a misfire. 

1191
00:49:07,900 --> 00:49:09,400
So then you try to course, 
correct. 

1192
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:11,000
It keep tell them like clear. 
Goose. 

1193
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:13,800
We spoke about radical Candor 
and you have to tell them like, 

1194
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,800
hey, I really care for you. 
But this is what I'm facing and 

1195
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,300
many times, it will be mistake 
from our side like sometimes 

1196
00:49:19,300 --> 00:49:22,100
when I learned that, hey, Is a 
very simple thing I did learn 

1197
00:49:22,100 --> 00:49:24,200
from you and I didn't give you 
that flexibility and that's why 

1198
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:25,700
you are very slow. 
Okay, fine. 

1199
00:49:25,900 --> 00:49:27,900
Take this thing off, or maybe 
they're going to have some 

1200
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:30,700
personal, really some personal 
problem, and there is some 

1201
00:49:30,700 --> 00:49:32,400
release. 
So they're trying to manage and 

1202
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,300
relax struggling then that's 
where we tow spoke, right at the

1203
00:49:35,300 --> 00:49:37,300
psychological when you are like 
well-connected and allow them 

1204
00:49:37,300 --> 00:49:39,700
like give them that space, there
humans are not machines. 

1205
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,100
Once you do them the feedback 
and try to understand what they 

1206
00:49:42,100 --> 00:49:44,400
are going through on and try to 
help them but even after doing 

1207
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,800
that sometimes, it won't happen.
Like they may be really good or 

1208
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,300
exceptional Engineers, but the 
amount of gel with the team. 

1209
00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:52,300
So they come in and The hard 
part where I say is that many 

1210
00:49:52,300 --> 00:49:54,800
companies was they're really 
smart and they pull through 80 

1211
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:57,100
percent of the load and just 
because of them the whole team 

1212
00:49:57,100 --> 00:49:59,400
is underperforming because they 
don't give up to other people. 

1213
00:49:59,500 --> 00:50:01,500
Now, at that point, you have to 
take a call that even if the 

1214
00:50:01,500 --> 00:50:04,000
city percent goes away. 
I have to give them feedback and

1215
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,000
make sure it is happening or 
just let them go. 

1216
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:09,100
So it is firing, which is 
extremely hard to do. 

1217
00:50:09,100 --> 00:50:11,500
If you are, not five much 
people, but first assume that 

1218
00:50:11,500 --> 00:50:13,800
it's your mistake, correct. 
It then understand what's 

1219
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:15,800
problem from their side 
improved, give them time. 

1220
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:18,600
But even after multiple times 
are not progressing, then the 

1221
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:21,300
only thing that is of 
despairing, so, The way to help 

1222
00:50:21,300 --> 00:50:22,700
them after firing to find their 
jobs. 

1223
00:50:22,700 --> 00:50:24,400
Don't be too rude. 
So that's the second thing. 

1224
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,600
Like again a said helping them 
is also a part of suffering, is 

1225
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:29,000
what I feel. 
You're all humans soft. 

1226
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:30,900
Edging is not something really 
different from us. 

1227
00:50:31,300 --> 00:50:33,000
Now. 
The third thing is setting up 

1228
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:34,900
the direction or like the 
problems different different 

1229
00:50:34,900 --> 00:50:36,400
people like different problem 
statements. 

1230
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,800
So first thing is, how much 
Freedom can you do people to 

1231
00:50:39,100 --> 00:50:40,300
pick up their problem 
statements? 

1232
00:50:40,500 --> 00:50:43,000
If you hire somebody with 
particularly very good talent 

1233
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:44,800
for something and they're like, 
very much motivated. 

1234
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,200
They're learning things, and 
then don't put them there at 

1235
00:50:47,200 --> 00:50:48,100
all. 
They will not stay. 

1236
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:50,200
You need to give them the 
problem statement that they like

1237
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,100
and then Allow them to do it in 
that way. 

1238
00:50:52,300 --> 00:50:54,100
So that the third thing, like 
allowing them to the right 

1239
00:50:54,100 --> 00:50:55,600
problem statement as much as 
possible. 

1240
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:57,100
So you can't do it 100% of the 
time. 

1241
00:50:57,100 --> 00:50:59,500
But we at least put right effort
to align that. 

1242
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:02,200
You have to be both manager and 
also leader. 

1243
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:04,400
So you have to put your manager 
hat and see what are the places 

1244
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:06,800
I can improve things. 
A simple example is happens all 

1245
00:51:06,800 --> 00:51:09,000
the time. 
You plan is print and in this 

1246
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:11,500
print, people ignore testers 
most of the time during 

1247
00:51:11,500 --> 00:51:13,400
estimations people, ignore 
designers. 

1248
00:51:13,600 --> 00:51:16,600
So when you do that, obviously 
at the end of the Sprint, you 

1249
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,300
don't have the next set of 
designs for the next print that 

1250
00:51:19,300 --> 00:51:22,100
is much ignored we should be 
actually Spread all the cards 

1251
00:51:22,100 --> 00:51:24,800
that we most of the cars, not 
all the gods, all the cars that 

1252
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:27,200
you would pick it up, can be 
tested only after one week or 

1253
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,400
something, other than you are 
piling up the load. 

1254
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,500
And if the developer velocity is
too high, then obviously, 

1255
00:51:32,500 --> 00:51:35,400
there's so much amount of vht 
driven because the district gets

1256
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,200
overloaded, they have to work on
the weekends. 

1257
00:51:37,300 --> 00:51:39,800
And even if they work Monday or 
Tuesday, like the demo won't 

1258
00:51:39,800 --> 00:51:42,300
happen because the teaching of 
Snowden, if you allow developers

1259
00:51:42,300 --> 00:51:44,700
to put code more than this, more
risk getting produced. 

1260
00:51:44,900 --> 00:51:46,800
I think that's where you would 
put your manager hat. 

1261
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,000
That's what bad things can 
happen to us in is opening. 

1262
00:51:49,100 --> 00:51:52,300
So then you have to watch that. 
At behaviors and try to keep on 

1263
00:51:52,300 --> 00:51:54,600
fine-tuning. 
A lot of times quality is not 

1264
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,700
about just solving the problem. 
Quality is more about even not 

1265
00:51:57,700 --> 00:51:59,400
making the problem to come to 
the surface. 

1266
00:51:59,500 --> 00:52:01,700
So you're stopping it even 
before I think that's where 

1267
00:52:01,700 --> 00:52:04,200
managers keep need to put that 
hat and keep on finding patterns

1268
00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:06,000
that it's not repeating. 
And again, if your pattern is 

1269
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,900
repeating for a three or four 
times, then you're actually not 

1270
00:52:08,900 --> 00:52:10,800
diagnosing the problem. 
But you are working at a surface

1271
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,700
low, you're just killing of the 
wounds, but you're not actually 

1272
00:52:12,700 --> 00:52:15,500
solving the problem. 
So you again Gaudi and try to 

1273
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:18,400
eliminate the dust. 
If your just wiping every day 

1274
00:52:18,500 --> 00:52:20,900
and seeing dust coming in, there
is some other source of the So 

1275
00:52:20,900 --> 00:52:23,000
you have to close the windows 
then obviously the stone come so

1276
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,100
you're always trying to diagnose
and find the root cause not cure

1277
00:52:26,100 --> 00:52:28,500
symptoms. 
So Rhonda is been a pleasure 

1278
00:52:28,500 --> 00:52:31,600
talking about all these concept 
collaboration, some of the 

1279
00:52:31,600 --> 00:52:34,400
abstract things that you can 
learn from different parallels. 

1280
00:52:34,500 --> 00:52:37,600
So we also learn about the 
manager persists leader, which I

1281
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:39,700
learned a lot. 
And the last thing, the last 

1282
00:52:39,700 --> 00:52:42,500
question that I have, as usual 
in this show is that I would 

1283
00:52:42,500 --> 00:52:45,900
like to know the three technical
leadership wisdom that you would

1284
00:52:45,900 --> 00:52:48,000
want to share with all of us the
audience here. 

1285
00:52:48,600 --> 00:52:51,700
Okay, that's quite interesting. 
So, I Try to tell a couple of 

1286
00:52:51,700 --> 00:52:53,300
them. 
The first thing is leadership is

1287
00:52:53,300 --> 00:52:55,200
more about a verb rather than in
known. 

1288
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,200
You can't just think that it's a
title thing. 

1289
00:52:57,300 --> 00:52:59,200
It's an action thing. 
It's not a title thing. 

1290
00:52:59,300 --> 00:53:01,900
So you can still be a simple 
designation, like, software 

1291
00:53:01,900 --> 00:53:03,600
engineer. 
But in the team when you're 

1292
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:05,800
working, people know that you 
are the leader, it's very 

1293
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:06,800
simple. 
Then there is a problem. 

1294
00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:08,700
Everybody's looking at you. 
They are not looking around. 

1295
00:53:08,900 --> 00:53:10,100
So then you are automatically 
leader. 

1296
00:53:10,100 --> 00:53:12,900
Then you do not have that noun, 
you're still at a verbal level. 

1297
00:53:13,100 --> 00:53:14,900
So that's very important. 
And interesting thing that I 

1298
00:53:14,908 --> 00:53:17,800
learned, the second thing is, 
it's completely okay to be wrong

1299
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:19,900
at leaders. 
So don't let the fear of 

1300
00:53:19,900 --> 00:53:22,400
experimentation. 
Like being wrong like 30. 

1301
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:24,500
It's okay. 
To be wrong, just be bold, and 

1302
00:53:24,500 --> 00:53:27,000
then try to do things, and then 
expanding. 

1303
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,500
But make sure like, at least 
measure the blast radius before 

1304
00:53:29,500 --> 00:53:32,000
doing some experiments and put 
it in a safe place for all 

1305
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,200
others because you are not 
alone. 

1306
00:53:33,300 --> 00:53:35,500
That's what's important. 
And don't think that I generally

1307
00:53:35,500 --> 00:53:37,900
fell to us. 
It's okay to be rational like, 

1308
00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:40,500
lot of times, people have that 
intuition intuition comes with 

1309
00:53:40,500 --> 00:53:42,500
experience. 
You can't come and tell somebody

1310
00:53:42,500 --> 00:53:44,100
that. 
See, this is what happens in 

1311
00:53:44,100 --> 00:53:45,800
many times. 
Just before the demo, some 

1312
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,800
people who commits and they're 
on the bill mostly, if you go 

1313
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,700
and see in the end people, Who 
are like more experience? 

1314
00:53:51,700 --> 00:53:52,900
They'll never do that. 
They'll stop it. 

1315
00:53:52,900 --> 00:53:54,600
Just one day before, just for 
the demos. 

1316
00:53:54,700 --> 00:53:56,600
Even if it's a simple, internal 
demos will stop it. 

1317
00:53:56,600 --> 00:53:57,800
They'll not allow this thing to 
happen. 

1318
00:53:57,800 --> 00:53:59,100
It will say this is what we 
agree on. 

1319
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:00,900
It's fine. 
There's overflow, we couldn't do

1320
00:54:00,900 --> 00:54:03,800
it, but we can't do this. 
But when you see, like mostly 

1321
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:05,600
Jewish people, they come with 
that. 

1322
00:54:05,600 --> 00:54:08,000
Enthousiasm that, hey, I want to
show more features in this demo 

1323
00:54:08,300 --> 00:54:10,100
and the push it till the last 
moment. 

1324
00:54:10,100 --> 00:54:12,700
And every time the demo phase, 
if anybody wants to give a 

1325
00:54:12,707 --> 00:54:14,500
rational argument that it's 
extremely hard. 

1326
00:54:14,700 --> 00:54:16,800
The same thing is estimations. 
There is this concept of 

1327
00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:18,700
dunning-kruger effect where 
people were like, let's 

1328
00:54:18,700 --> 00:54:20,000
experience. 
The think that there is 

1329
00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,000
commission's are More, right. 
So these are all like rational, 

1330
00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:24,100
right? 
When I come and have this 

1331
00:54:24,100 --> 00:54:25,700
discussion with Engineers were 
like really smart. 

1332
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:28,500
They'll say Hey try the previous
Bill do that do this. 

1333
00:54:28,500 --> 00:54:31,400
But a lot of times they're like 
my new things that will fail. 

1334
00:54:31,700 --> 00:54:33,500
It's okay to be rational and 
then allow people to be 

1335
00:54:33,500 --> 00:54:36,100
relational sometimes but not for
always say like you cannot say 

1336
00:54:36,100 --> 00:54:37,700
that. 
Alright additional code, that's 

1337
00:54:37,700 --> 00:54:39,600
not acceptable. 
So code is official to be 

1338
00:54:39,600 --> 00:54:41,800
executed. 
So that's the third thing that I

1339
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:43,300
want to talk about. 
All right. 

1340
00:54:43,300 --> 00:54:45,300
So thanks again. 
Ranga for your sharing, the 

1341
00:54:45,300 --> 00:54:47,000
three, technical leadership 
wisdom. 

1342
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,000
If people wants to connect with 
you online, where can they find 

1343
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:51,600
you? 
Definitely clean. 

1344
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:54,500
So I know that my name is really
hard for not in India to 

1345
00:54:54,500 --> 00:54:56,800
pronounce search, but obviously,
in the comments or somewhere you

1346
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,500
can search, my name is 
ranganathan Polish and mugam you

1347
00:54:59,500 --> 00:55:01,600
can search or you can just 
search for Everest engineering, 

1348
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,700
which is easier. 
And my name pops up. 

1349
00:55:03,700 --> 00:55:05,700
Definitely good to connect and 
send a message on illegal in. 

1350
00:55:05,700 --> 00:55:07,900
And I'll be in touch. 
Yeah, I'll be surely. 

1351
00:55:07,900 --> 00:55:10,800
Putting that on the show notes. 
I mean, like, you're not alone. 

1352
00:55:10,800 --> 00:55:14,200
My surname was so kind of long 
and difficult to pronounce. 

1353
00:55:14,300 --> 00:55:16,200
So, thanks again for your time 
longer. 

1354
00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,900
It's good to chat with you and I
wish you good luck with Everest 

1355
00:55:18,900 --> 00:55:21,400
engineering. 
And hopefully See you again in 

1356
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,100
some other events. 
Thank you. 

1357
00:55:23,100 --> 00:55:25,200
So much hundred was nice talking
to you and I really appreciate 

1358
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:30,400
the questions table. 
Thank you for listening to this 

1359
00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:33,000
episode and for staying right 
till the end. 

1360
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:36,200
If you highly enjoyed, please 
share it with your friends and 

1361
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,500
colleagues who you think would 
also benefit from listening to 

1362
00:55:39,500 --> 00:55:41,800
this episode. 
And if you're new to the 

1363
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:45,100
podcast, make sure to subscribe 
and leave me your valuable 

1364
00:55:45,100 --> 00:55:48,500
review and feedback. 
It really really helps me a lot 

1365
00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:51,000
in order to grow this podcast 
better. 

1366
00:55:51,500 --> 00:55:54,900
You can also find the full show 
notes of this conversation on 

1367
00:55:54,900 --> 00:55:58,100
the episode page at technology. 
No, the death website. 

1368
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,700
Adding the full transcript, 
interesting quotes, and links to

1369
00:56:01,700 --> 00:56:04,500
the resources and mentions from 
the conversation. 

1370
00:56:05,000 --> 00:56:07,900
And lastly, make sure to 
subscribe to the shows mailing 

1371
00:56:07,900 --> 00:56:11,300
list on technology on of the 
deaf to get notified for any 

1372
00:56:11,300 --> 00:56:13,900
future episodes. 
Stay tuned for the next 

1373
00:56:13,900 --> 00:56:16,400
technique Journal episode. 
And until then. 

1374
00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:17,100
Goodbye.