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Synchronous, communication, 
promotes flow and flow is 

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generally what we're all looking
for. 

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Not only because it's more 
productive, not only to because 

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it's within this state that we 
produce the best work. 

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It's also within the static, we 
feel the most fulfilled. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surah one. 

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And you're listening to the 
tekhelet journal. 

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The show will be bringing you 
the greatest technical leaders 

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00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,600
practitioners and thought 
leaders in the industry to 

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00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:36,800
discuss about their Journey 
ideas and practices that we all 

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can learn and apply to build a 
highly performing technical team

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and to make an impact in your 
personal work. 

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So let's dive into our Journal. 
Hello, my friend is really great

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to be back here with another new
episode of the taglit journal. 

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With me Ojos, Henry, Surah one. 
Thank you for tuning in and 

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spending your time with me 
today, listening to this 

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episode. 
If you haven't joined any of the

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Tecla Journal, social media 
channels, I would encourage you 

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to spend a few seconds right 
now, to click on the links in 

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the show notes where you can 
find this show, either on 

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LinkedIn Twitter or Instagram 
and join a fast growing number 

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of people. 
I've been following the show so 

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far, make sure to also, 
subscribe and follow this, show 

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00:01:24,100 --> 00:01:28,000
on your favorite podcast app in 
the spirit of the Thanksgiving 

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day that has just passed. 
A few days ago. 

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I would like to express my 
deepest gratitude for all of you

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by listeners out there who have 
been listening and supporting 

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the show. 
Since I started it in August 

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00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:42,700
this year. 
I can't tell you how much it 

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really means to me to hear some 
of your lovely comments and 

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feedback and how you have been 
finding the show useful. 

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So by listening to my 
conversations with great 

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technical leaders that I've 
invited to the show so far. 

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And if any of you would like to 
send your Thanksgiving wishes 

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and messages to this show or me,
you can drop them as comments or

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00:02:03,100 --> 00:02:06,900
emails on those social media 
channels or directly to me and 

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please know that I'll be reading
them one-by-one. 

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Personally, the year 2020 has 
been a challenging year. 

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For all of us due to the covid 
pandemic in which all of us have

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had to adapt and make Major 
adjustments to what our daily 

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lives and our work approaches 
and this year, many of us have 

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to start adopting some forms of 
remote work, like working from 

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home, especially when most 
countries started to implement 

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lockdown to limit the spread of 
the pandemic, while some of us 

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could switch to remote working 
seamlessly, for some others. 

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It might not be as smooth and 
productive as how we expected it

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to be. 
And for this reason that I 

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invited Gonzalo Silva. 
The CTO of do is the company 

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behind the popular productivity 
app to do this. 

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And the communication app. 
Twist do is has been a remote 

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first company practically since 
the founder started working on 

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to do is in 2007 and became 
officially fully remote. 

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When it hired its first remote 
employee in 2011 do is has a 

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mission of building the future 
of work by creating tools that 

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promote more fulfilling ways to 
work and live do is has also 

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been promoting the They work, 
which they call the future of 

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work by publishing and sharing 
lots of great articles on their 

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famous block, ambition and 
balance. 

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In this episode. 
I learned a lot from Gonzalo 

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about DUIs and it's remote, 
working history, and culture, 

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including some advantages and 
disadvantages of remote work. 

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We also discuss at length about 
having a synchronous 

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communication, as the first 
preferred communication style, 

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instead of the synchronous 
communication, and why it is 

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such an Important communication 
style to adopt in a remote team 

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Gonzalo. 
Then shares about Dewey's core 

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values. 
The Cornerstone of every single 

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thing that do is dust as a 
company from creating processes 

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to decision-making and also 
recruiting towards the end. 

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Gonzalo. 
Also shares some engineering and

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Technical practices that do is 
dust especially the ones 

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important for a successful 
remote team, including the 

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importance of pre, allocation 
and prioritization to avoid 

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being block. 
You work remotely. 

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This was such a great 
conversation and learning 

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opportunity for me, especially 
since I've always been intrigued

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by how, a fully remote company 
works and that it could still 

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succeed and Thrive compared to 
the traditional working model. 

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And since I've been a long-term 
Avid user of to do is having 

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this conversation with Gonzalo, 
has also been a great pleasure 

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for me. 
I hope that you will enjoy this 

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great episode. 
Please. 

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Consider helping the show in the
smallest possible way. 

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By leaving me a rating and 
review on Apple podcast and 

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00:04:52,500 --> 00:04:54,600
other podcast apps that allow 
you to do. 

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So those ratings and reviews are
one of the best ways to get this

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podcast to reach more listeners 
and hopefully the show gets 

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featured on the podcast 
platform. 

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Let's get the episode started 
right after our sponsor message.

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Are you start up in software 
development Which is less than 

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for jetbrains startup discount 
offer or you can check out the 

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00:05:30,207 --> 00:05:36,600
link mention in the show notes. 
Hi Gonzalo, good to see you. 

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It's great really to hear some 
things about to do is I've been 

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using your product a lot and I 
know you are one of the 

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well-known companies doing the 
remote work, especially during 

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this pandemic time. 
It will be very precious to hear

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your it's sharing the best 
practices and I'm really excited

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to see you and talk to you about
remote work today. 

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Hi, I'm Ray. 
Thank you for inviting me. 

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I'm very excited to be on the 
podcast today as well. 

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Thank you. 
So Gonzalo, maybe. 

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First of all, can you brief us? 
What is your company doing? 

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Do is right. 
Yes. 

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So, our name is due West, we're 
building two products that 

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people know about. 
So, to-do list is the most 

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popular one. 
You probably have heard it. 

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It's a task manager and personal
productivity app. 

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We're also building twist, which
is a team, communication app 

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that Says on asynchronous 
communication along form, 

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thoughtful communication. 
But ultimately, what we're doing

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at do is, is we have this Moto 
that we say, we are building the

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future, we want to work in and, 
of course, we're building the 

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tools for that future. 
But also we're building the 

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culture for that future and 
that's why, for example, we work

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remotely. 
That's why we think about ways 

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of working sustainably. 
That's why we're investing in 

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things like a synchronous 
communication. 

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So we're really trying to make a
dent in the workplace. 

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Also, by leaving our idea. 
Also, this comes through our 

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tools and also the way we work 
specifically before we start. 

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Obviously as usual. 
I will ask my guests to share 

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their courage and he so maybe 
Gonzalo. 

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Can you share with us your 
career Journey? 

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What are some of the major 
highlights are turning points? 

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What made you start it working 
in the remote company. 

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My career is a bit interesting 
because I transitioned from 

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freelancing to working remotely 
and I guess you could say a lot 

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of Freelancers already work 
remotely. 

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They're just not employees of 
someone. 

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My back started comes from open 
source software, so I was lucky 

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my first Player. 
Let me do a lot of work around 

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open source, particularly rails.
So, I worked in a lot of popular

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libraries back in the day, 
things like access paranoid 

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permalink who like a lot of the 
early rails apps use these 

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libraries and I was one of the 
either Creator or maintainers on

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the technical side of things. 
I feel like that already gave me

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a lot of remote experience 
because I was working with 

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people all around the world. 
After that stage. 

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I was a freelancer for a while 
and then again, I guess I 

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realized I was working remotely 
with clients in this case. 

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And actually, that's how do This
comes into my background. 

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Do it was one of my clients 
actually my last client. 

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They hired me, Android app at 
this time, due east had four 

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people in total together with a 
friend who was working with me 

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on this project. 
We build todoist, Android app 

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and along the process. 
We were just having so much fun.

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It was really a nice way to work
that we thought, you know, let's

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strengthen this collaboration 
and let's join the company as 

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employees, regular employees. 
That's a highlight going from 

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open source, software 
development to freelancing and 

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then todoist still as a remote 
company, honestly. 

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I feel like my in office 
experience, is probably lacking 

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at this point. 
Comparatively, at least. 

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And then, of course, I went 
through the turning points that 

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I think most technical leaders 
have gone through when you first

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go into management and you 
notice, your life is turned 

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upside down. 
It's very different coming in, 

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writing code, having technical 
discussions day in day out, to 

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coming in leading a technical 
team. 

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Thinking about technical 
Direction and balancing, all the

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trade-offs one must do all the 
while managing the people on the

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team and helping them supporting
them growing them. 

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It's a big. 
Jacques, I think I struggled a 

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lot with the reward mechanisms. 
For example, I think we weren't 

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in, programming are usually very
immediate. 

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You do something. 
It looks great. 

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You're proud. 
You feel great when you're 

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building a team, you're kind of 
like setting other people up for

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success and can take a long time
to see the benefits. 

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It's just a very different way 
to work and contribute. 

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And I think the last chakra me 
was, when I changed from 

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managing people to managing 
managers in the CTO role. 

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And honestly, sometimes people 
say that the biggest shake-up a 

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person can have in their career.
If they dabble into management 

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because they will realize 
they're changing careers. 

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I think the change from managing
people to managing managers is 

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maybe even more drastic because 
suddenly it's very different. 

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You're managing people who have 
their own sets of ideals 

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incentives. 
They have their own plans for 

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their teams and you're trying to
communicate well, and align 

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everybody and still also support
them and Coach them in managing 

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people. 
It's a very different way of 

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working from managing people and
from being an individual 

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contributor. 
So generally speaking these 

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things that I'm describing to 
you happened. 

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Over the last 13 to 14 years. 
And I think remote work has been

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always been very core to my way 
of working. 

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What, even when I don't realize 
when it's not very explicit. 

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Like it is today at doest. 
So if I understand correctly, 

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you have never worked in the 
typical corporate and the price 

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I have. 
But when I did spend a 

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significant portion of my time, 
working on open source software,

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so I was in the company, I 
collaborated, internal projects,

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just like everybody else, but 
most of my attention was in the 

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open source contributions. 
Is because the company used 

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these projects. 
So I was tasked with improving 

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them as well. 
Even though I was in this more 

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carpet environment. 
I was spending a lot of time 

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working with the community which
was around the world. 

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Thanks for sharing. 
Your story. 

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00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:34,400
Definitely is very interesting. 
Somebody who came from open 

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source, do freelancing quite a 
bit before fully immersed into 

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the remote work. 
So I personally myself, Heaven 

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00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,400
ever experienced remote work 
before flexi work. 

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Yes, all this virtual conference
and things like that. 

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Yes, so I come from a 
traditional background coming 

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back to your Your vision of 
building a future of work. 

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00:10:50,900 --> 00:10:53,800
Probably we can spend a lot of 
time, maybe educating me and 

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00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,000
also convincing me why. 
This is not work. 

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00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,500
Might be something that we all 
should explore about. 

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00:10:58,500 --> 00:11:01,600
First of all, you mentioned that
the company started with four 

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00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,700
people when you join right? 
Was it remote straight away in 

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00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:06,600
the beginning from the founder 
itself? 

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00:11:06,900 --> 00:11:08,700
Yeah. 
At the time just started the 

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00:11:08,700 --> 00:11:10,500
founder was traveling across the
world. 

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00:11:10,500 --> 00:11:12,300
So there was really no basis for
him. 

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00:11:12,300 --> 00:11:15,500
So I think it all started as a 
side project and he was in Asia 

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00:11:15,500 --> 00:11:18,000
at this time. 
Eventually he returned back to 

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00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:20,300
Europe. 
He's from Denmark, but he 

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00:11:20,300 --> 00:11:23,000
developed most of the early 
project in Chile. 

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00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:25,200
He was in Chile around the time 
of startup, Chile. 

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00:11:25,300 --> 00:11:27,600
This big program. 
He met a lot of the early 

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00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:29,300
people. 
They're like our CEO. 

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00:11:29,300 --> 00:11:31,400
He met there. 
He was working on some other 

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00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:33,600
unrelated project, our head of 
marketing. 

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She worked there. 
She was also part of startup 

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00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:38,600
Chile at the time. 
And even this connection that I 

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have with the founder was quite 
similar to this. 

233
00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:44,200
So I have a close friend who was
in Chile when I'm here, was 

234
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,300
looking around for somebody who 
could build the Android app in a

235
00:11:47,300 --> 00:11:50,400
specific way this friends at 
Hey, I know someone back in 

236
00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,400
Portugal. 
It was all very remote because 

237
00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:54,100
the startup Chile was a 
temporary program. 

238
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:57,600
So people were eventually going 
to leave, even those early bonds

239
00:11:57,600 --> 00:11:59,500
that only lasted maybe a few 
months. 

240
00:11:59,700 --> 00:12:02,900
They were meant to be temporary.
And actually, the way I'm your 

241
00:12:02,900 --> 00:12:05,800
approach to building the company
originally this vision of the 

242
00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:08,800
future of work was maybe even 
more extreme in the beginning. 

243
00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,800
So I'm here thought he could and
maybe he could. 

244
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,300
I mean, tried to build the 
company based off of 

245
00:12:14,300 --> 00:12:16,500
Freelancers. 
I'm gonna hire a designer a 

246
00:12:16,500 --> 00:12:18,900
freelancer to handle design a 
freelancer. 

247
00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:21,300
Handle, the marketing and 
Freelancers and handle this and 

248
00:12:21,300 --> 00:12:23,000
that Freelancers to build the 
apps. 

249
00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,300
And I'm going to try to build a 
business like this. 

250
00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,800
So he would honestly be the only
employee. 

251
00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,200
Well, that didn't work. 
But still it's quite interesting

252
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,900
because I feel in some ways. 
That's maybe the most extreme 

253
00:12:32,900 --> 00:12:35,500
version of remote work, of 
course, still has much better 

254
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when people are actually part of
the company. 

255
00:12:37,300 --> 00:12:40,000
They're part of the culture. 
The incentives are aligned. 

256
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,300
It's much different, but still 
the whole history of doest is 

257
00:12:43,300 --> 00:12:45,500
very remote Centric from the 
very beginning. 

258
00:12:45,800 --> 00:12:48,900
I think the concept of Building 
Company with all Freelancers are

259
00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,100
Recently read a book about 
company of one. 

260
00:12:51,100 --> 00:12:52,800
Maybe that's the concept all 
about it. 

261
00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:55,400
Yeah, I mean like it might work 
for some people but certainly do

262
00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,700
is didn't go that route. 
So instead you build a company 

263
00:12:58,700 --> 00:13:01,200
by hiring a bunch of people 
remotely. 

264
00:13:01,300 --> 00:13:04,500
So maybe tell us a little bit, 
like what's the benefit of 

265
00:13:04,500 --> 00:13:07,300
having remote work? 
I think sometimes we focus on 

266
00:13:07,300 --> 00:13:10,100
the obvious benefits, but we 
talked about not having to 

267
00:13:10,100 --> 00:13:12,100
commute. 
If you save half an hour every 

268
00:13:12,100 --> 00:13:14,800
day or maybe half an hour plus 
half an hour or so one hour 

269
00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,200
every day. 
You're going to save a lot of 

270
00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,900
time across the weekend across 
the year and it's going to be 

271
00:13:19,000 --> 00:13:21,400
Very impactful for you. 
You can be using this hour to do

272
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,200
something else other than 
Community. 

273
00:13:23,300 --> 00:13:26,300
This idea immediately pops into 
our head, another idea that I 

274
00:13:26,300 --> 00:13:28,000
think it's fairly obvious for 
most people. 

275
00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:31,100
This is on the company side, is 
you have access to a global 

276
00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:33,600
talent pool. 
You can hire anywhere across the

277
00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:35,800
world. 
And so suddenly, you don't have 

278
00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,200
to trust the location. 
You're in to find all of the 

279
00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:40,400
talent you need. 
You can literally hire from 

280
00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,100
everywhere, but I think there 
are other maybe more indirect 

281
00:13:43,100 --> 00:13:45,200
advantages that are worth 
considering. 

282
00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,000
For example, you can have a 
really diverse team when you 

283
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,100
hire globally. 
You can have people from all 

284
00:13:50,100 --> 00:13:53,700
across the world, with all kinds
of different backgrounds, and 

285
00:13:53,700 --> 00:13:57,000
you can gain immensely from this
diversity in the way, this 

286
00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,300
translates to everything, you do
to your culture, to your 

287
00:13:59,300 --> 00:14:01,000
product. 
And of course, you can have all 

288
00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,800
of this diversity to in a 
specific place, but this 

289
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:07,100
requires people to move their. 
Well, this doesn't really happen

290
00:14:07,100 --> 00:14:09,500
if you're hiring globally. 
And another thing that I think 

291
00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:12,500
is really important is when you 
have access to these Global 

292
00:14:12,500 --> 00:14:15,200
Talent pool, this improves, the 
odds of small companies to be 

293
00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,500
able to compete with larger 
companies hiring is tough, but 

294
00:14:18,500 --> 00:14:21,400
you have Says to really talented
people in all corners of the 

295
00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,500
world. 
So this levels, the playing 

296
00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:25,500
field a little bit. 
I'm sure if you're in a 

297
00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:28,200
technological Hub, like, Silicon
Valley, or maybe even do 

298
00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,800
repeating ones, like London, you
sure are a big company. 

299
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:33,500
You generally are able to hire 
better than smaller. 

300
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:35,200
Companies. 
You have more funds. 

301
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,400
You have more reputation. 
It's very different from hiring 

302
00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:40,500
remotely. 
A lot of the big players don't 

303
00:14:40,500 --> 00:14:43,000
hire remotely. 
That's changing now, but still 

304
00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,400
it's quite interesting to think 
about leveling the playing 

305
00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:46,900
field. 
And another thing that I think 

306
00:14:46,900 --> 00:14:51,300
is super important is remote. 
Work allows us to revitalize our

307
00:14:51,300 --> 00:14:54,800
local communities. 
So we don't need to go and fight

308
00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:59,000
for space in a very specific 
hubs, which becomes real live in

309
00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:01,000
small places and we pay high 
rents. 

310
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,300
So economically doesn't make a 
lot of sense and by hiring 

311
00:15:04,300 --> 00:15:08,100
remotely by hiring globally, you
are helping Revitalize. 

312
00:15:08,100 --> 00:15:11,400
This local communities, which in
the end, I think benefits all of

313
00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:13,700
humanity. 
So I think there are benefits 

314
00:15:13,700 --> 00:15:17,400
for employees for employers and 
even for communities as a whole.

315
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,800
Those are some of the areas, I 
think. 

316
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,000
Very impactful. 
So, maybe in that case, the flip

317
00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:23,400
side of it. 
What are some of the 

318
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,400
disadvantages especially, from 
people, maybe that you hire 

319
00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,400
coming from traditional company 
background because we all can 

320
00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,200
say, oh, so many things, maybe 
go wrong but maybe from those 

321
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,000
people who join and then have 
experience a traditional and 

322
00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:37,400
transition into the remote work.
Maybe you can share some of the 

323
00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,100
disadvantages that they went 
through. 

324
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,200
I think human connection is 
tricky. 

325
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,400
Humans are optimized for 
communicating face-to-face and 

326
00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:47,200
we have been improving our 
skills in this area for 

327
00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:51,100
Millennia and suddenly Percy. 
In behind screens in some office

328
00:15:51,100 --> 00:15:54,600
or room isolated from everybody 
else and there's a lot of signal

329
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:57,500
we lose here body language, but 
even the connection, like the 

330
00:15:57,500 --> 00:16:00,000
emotional connection, we feel 
towards other people. 

331
00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:02,700
This is really hard to 
compensate for remotely. 

332
00:16:02,700 --> 00:16:05,000
You can do a lot of things. 
You can think about a lot of 

333
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,500
ways to bring that connection 
back to the team, but honestly, 

334
00:16:08,500 --> 00:16:10,400
in an office, it's something you
get for free. 

335
00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:11,900
People are sitting next to each 
other. 

336
00:16:11,900 --> 00:16:14,800
They collaborate together. 
There's a water cooler, people 

337
00:16:14,800 --> 00:16:17,000
have lunch together. 
And suddenly you lose all of 

338
00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,800
this, and you have to have a 
whole team. 

339
00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:22,100
Getting very intentionally about
this problem and designing ways 

340
00:16:22,100 --> 00:16:25,400
to fight this disadvantage one 
specific example, I can give you

341
00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,200
is, we have a tourist to eerily 
Retreats per year. 

342
00:16:29,300 --> 00:16:32,400
These are two opportunities. 
We use to reconnect as a team. 

343
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:34,500
And one of these Retreats is 
company-wide. 

344
00:16:34,500 --> 00:16:37,100
Everybody gets together for a 
week somewhere in the world. 

345
00:16:37,100 --> 00:16:39,400
The other of these Retreats is 
team specific. 

346
00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,300
Each team gets together in 
somewhere. 

347
00:16:41,300 --> 00:16:44,400
Specific also annually because 
of the pandemic, we haven't been

348
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:48,000
able to do this and we can feel 
that this has an impact. 

349
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,900
We feel less connected. 
Acted than usual. 

350
00:16:49,900 --> 00:16:52,600
In some ways that human 
connection side of things is not

351
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,200
only tricky. 
It's fragile. 

352
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,700
And we need to think about it 
very consciously because it can 

353
00:16:56,700 --> 00:16:59,100
ruin our culture. 
If we don't uphold this. 

354
00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:02,500
Something else that also happens
is the way we work. 

355
00:17:02,500 --> 00:17:06,400
Remotely is very specific. 
We have to rely on technology. 

356
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:10,099
Similarly, to before, we're not 
right next to another person. 

357
00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:12,800
A lot of the communication we do
in person is very high bandwidth

358
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:14,599
and we're used to this type of 
communication. 

359
00:17:14,599 --> 00:17:16,500
We enjoy it. 
We communicate in words. 

360
00:17:16,500 --> 00:17:18,400
We speak very fast. 
We have body language. 

361
00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:21,300
There's a Our most amounts of 
communication flowing back and 

362
00:17:21,300 --> 00:17:23,599
forth for some workflows. 
For example, when you're 

363
00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,500
brainstorming a new idea. 
This can be very productive. 

364
00:17:26,700 --> 00:17:29,700
You can get a lot of work done 
in an hour just by hashing, some

365
00:17:29,700 --> 00:17:32,600
ideas out with somebody. 
The way we work remotely. 

366
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,000
Generally speaking is not very 
productive in these terms. 

367
00:17:36,100 --> 00:17:39,200
Imagine having a very raw 
brainstorm over slack. 

368
00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:41,000
It's the nightmare on the other 
hand. 

369
00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,300
There are some workflows which 
are really good when you're 

370
00:17:43,300 --> 00:17:46,000
working remotely. 
Just the fact that you have all 

371
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,000
of this buffer to sit back and 
think, Think about your ideas 

372
00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:52,600
and reflect about them and 
refine them and polish them. 

373
00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:55,900
Your kind of like editing before
sharing makes it so that most 

374
00:17:55,900 --> 00:17:58,200
conversations are really high 
signal. 

375
00:17:58,300 --> 00:18:00,700
There's very low noise and this 
is really good. 

376
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,600
Going back to the advantages of 
remote work, but for some things

377
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,300
remote work isn't really a 
student because we also usually 

378
00:18:06,300 --> 00:18:08,700
speak a bit earlier than we 
should we do this. 

379
00:18:08,700 --> 00:18:11,600
It's just the way we work. 
But for that early stage, when 

380
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:13,600
high bandwidth is really 
important. 

381
00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,800
The lack of colocation is a 
disadvantage and it's not as 

382
00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:18,600
easy. 
You can go on a call, but you 

383
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,500
still His body language, 
technology breaks down is the 

384
00:18:21,500 --> 00:18:23,800
thing stopped working. 
Sometimes you're struggling with

385
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,700
the tool, the whole workflow of.
Can you hear me? 

386
00:18:27,100 --> 00:18:31,100
Am I still here instead of 
focusing on the actual idea? 

387
00:18:31,100 --> 00:18:33,800
So there's all of this friction 
that doesn't exist when you're 

388
00:18:33,800 --> 00:18:36,600
sitting next to another person. 
It's a disadvantage, you can 

389
00:18:36,600 --> 00:18:39,000
design your workflows. 
You can design a lot of things 

390
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,400
to prevent and to fight back on 
this disadvantages, but they're 

391
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,200
there by default. 
So, I think those two things are

392
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,100
quite big disadvantage, is the 
lack of human Connection by Alt 

393
00:18:49,100 --> 00:18:51,800
and also not being able to have 
very high bandwidth 

394
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,400
conversations also by default. 
I guess. 

395
00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:57,400
I'm also quite intrigued, right?
Because by doing remote work, 

396
00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,000
you can still have this high 
bandwidth, but I think that's 

397
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:03,000
not one of the best practice 
like maybe do is and some other 

398
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,600
remote companies are doing 
because they always Advocate 

399
00:19:05,700 --> 00:19:08,600
asynchronous first because it 
could happen also like you do 

400
00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,200
removal but you still 
communicate through slacks and 

401
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:15,200
maybe videos meetings all the 
time, but that is actually one 

402
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,000
of the best practices if I 
understand correctly and that 

403
00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:20,300
you should prefer. 
I synchronous bus rather than 

404
00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:21,800
synchronous. 
Yes. 

405
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,300
So we're big Believers of 
asynchronous work. 

406
00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:27,400
We're very inspired by for 
example, deep work by call 

407
00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,400
Newport and we really optimize 
the way we work in our culture 

408
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,700
towards this. 
For example, we only have five 

409
00:19:33,700 --> 00:19:36,300
core values at duelist. 
And one of them is Independence.

410
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,400
The thing is the future of work,
we feel it's much more 

411
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,100
rewarding. 
If you can block most of your 

412
00:19:41,100 --> 00:19:44,500
day to work on something that's 
very specific and tangible. 

413
00:19:44,500 --> 00:19:47,400
You can reflect you can do your 
best work and you can be done 

414
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:48,900
with it. 
When you think about, The 

415
00:19:48,900 --> 00:19:53,000
regular workplace and even the 
chat based workplace nowadays. 

416
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:55,600
It's filled with interruptions 
and interruptions. 

417
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,100
Break the flow for you flow 
makes you happy. 

418
00:19:58,100 --> 00:20:00,200
So if you can achieve flow 
you're less happy. 

419
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:02,300
Let's say. 
Generally speaking a 

420
00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:05,200
synchronous, communication 
promotes flow and flow is 

421
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:06,700
generally what we're all looking
for. 

422
00:20:06,700 --> 00:20:09,100
Not only because it's more 
productive, not only to because 

423
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,200
it's within this state that we 
produce the best work. 

424
00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:15,000
It's also within the static, we 
feel the most fulfilled 

425
00:20:15,100 --> 00:20:18,800
asynchronous communication is 
really a way of promoting flow. 

426
00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:22,700
And also ensuring that the work 
we do as this connects to what 

427
00:20:22,700 --> 00:20:24,900
we were discussing before, is 
very high signal. 

428
00:20:24,900 --> 00:20:27,400
So when you communicate 
asynchronously, you communicate 

429
00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,900
with very high signal, when you 
work with Flo your work itself 

430
00:20:30,900 --> 00:20:33,600
is very high signal. 
So people are generally very 

431
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,000
productive, very fulfilled, and 
they can do their best work 

432
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:38,600
without being interrupted all 
the time. 

433
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,400
So there are many advantages to 
asynchronous communication that 

434
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,300
we promote for the record. 
We think eight synchronous 

435
00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:46,600
communication has a place, it 
needs to be there. 

436
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,500
So usually talk about Scent of 
the time. 

437
00:20:49,500 --> 00:20:52,100
We should be doing asynchronous 
communication, ten percent of 

438
00:20:52,100 --> 00:20:54,300
the time you should be doing 
synchronous communication. 

439
00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:58,500
It's not either/or situation 
because there are some workflows

440
00:20:58,500 --> 00:21:01,500
that are really suited for 
communicating synchronously, of 

441
00:21:01,500 --> 00:21:04,500
course, like all of the other 
teams, we have one-on-ones and 

442
00:21:04,500 --> 00:21:07,400
these things, we don't really 
try to do them asynchronously 

443
00:21:07,500 --> 00:21:10,500
because again, we're looking for
that human connection, something

444
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:12,900
would require that human 
connection and we want to make 

445
00:21:12,900 --> 00:21:14,600
sure there's room for those 
things. 

446
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,400
We have Team meetings, which 
honestly they are not very 

447
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:21,300
tactical with the Our planning 
asynchronously the team meeting 

448
00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:24,200
serve, a very specific purpose. 
Like they look tactical on the 

449
00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,600
surface, but deep down. 
They're just an opportunity for 

450
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,500
people to get together on a 
call. 

451
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:31,400
See each other every week and 
talk a little bit about the 

452
00:21:31,400 --> 00:21:32,700
work. 
They're doing again. 

453
00:21:32,700 --> 00:21:34,600
It's looking for that human 
connection. 

454
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:36,200
And there needs to be room for 
that. 

455
00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:39,900
But by default definitely 
asynchronous and optimizing for 

456
00:21:39,900 --> 00:21:42,300
a synchronicity when you're 
working remotely. 

457
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:45,600
This is also the smartest thing 
to do, because if you try to 

458
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:48,100
make things synchronous, when 
your remotes you're going to 

459
00:21:48,100 --> 00:21:50,900
struggle a little A bit you have
people across time zones people 

460
00:21:50,900 --> 00:21:53,100
in different locations. 
The tooling is great holidays, 

461
00:21:53,100 --> 00:21:55,000
but it's not fantastic. 
It's a Flawless. 

462
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:58,100
So if you can minimize this 
friction, everybody wins 

463
00:21:58,100 --> 00:22:01,000
generally speaking. 
So I get what you mean, but 

464
00:22:01,000 --> 00:22:02,800
again, coming from the 
traditional background, my 

465
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:05,800
tendency will be okay. 
I synchronous first if I have 

466
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,300
something normally, as a common 
employee, we would want to have 

467
00:22:09,300 --> 00:22:12,400
a response as soon as possible 
with this kind of setup. 

468
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:13,900
What would you think we should 
do? 

469
00:22:13,900 --> 00:22:16,500
Let's say if I request for 
something and I have to wait 

470
00:22:16,500 --> 00:22:18,400
for, I don't know, a few hours, 
a few days. 

471
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:20,200
Do you? 
Please have a like multiple 

472
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,300
tracks that you looking on 
asynchronously. 

473
00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:25,000
Maybe we can share a little bit 
of light on that front. 

474
00:22:25,300 --> 00:22:27,000
It's a great question. 
Yes. 

475
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,900
This is something we designed 
very intentionally for in our 

476
00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:32,400
workflows when we're working 
with people where blocked all 

477
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,100
the time. 
And if we are fully 

478
00:22:34,100 --> 00:22:36,800
asynchronous, these blocks can 
last a very long time. 

479
00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,200
There are a few things we do to 
work around this so to speak. 

480
00:22:40,300 --> 00:22:43,500
The first one is, we are very 
conscious about having separate 

481
00:22:43,500 --> 00:22:46,100
tracks as you said. 
So officially, there's only 

482
00:22:46,100 --> 00:22:48,900
usually one main piece of work 
that we're doing, but there's Is

483
00:22:48,900 --> 00:22:52,200
also, this idea of a backlog of 
things we can also do. 

484
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,400
So, if you get blocked on 
something, you can switch to 

485
00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,700
something else and we try to 
master this workflow of context 

486
00:22:57,700 --> 00:22:59,900
switching. 
It's usually very expensive as 

487
00:22:59,900 --> 00:23:02,900
you know, so we try to minimize 
it as much as possible. 

488
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:05,500
This is something we train 
people from day one, you will 

489
00:23:05,500 --> 00:23:08,000
context switch. 
And usually, there are ways you 

490
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,700
can tweak this to remain 
productive. 

491
00:23:09,700 --> 00:23:12,400
For example, your secondary task
should be something fairly 

492
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:13,900
small. 
A chainable may be something you

493
00:23:13,900 --> 00:23:15,400
can do in two hours fix the 
book. 

494
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:19,500
So, it becomes rewarding very 
fast and this helps Brain be 

495
00:23:19,500 --> 00:23:21,300
motivated to work on something 
else. 

496
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:24,100
But we also do a lot of 
preparation work to ensure that 

497
00:23:24,100 --> 00:23:25,800
we're not blocked most of the 
time. 

498
00:23:25,900 --> 00:23:28,800
So, what this means is, we had a
stage many years ago. 

499
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,600
For example, when we didn't 
think, as much about this, where

500
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,800
maybe we went into work without 
having thought out about how 

501
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,000
things should work, like what 
the design could look like. 

502
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,200
There was a lot of in definition
and this lens to us being 

503
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:43,800
blocked all the time. 
And this was very detrimental to

504
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,200
the work we did. 
So now we really try to 

505
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:50,300
anticipate as much as possible 
for People we work in squads, 

506
00:23:50,300 --> 00:23:52,200
cross-functional squads to build
things. 

507
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,500
And before we start doing the 
actual work, the squad usually 

508
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:58,100
starts discussing the work. 
So while they're finishing off 

509
00:23:58,100 --> 00:24:01,400
their previous pieces of work, 
they're already thinking about 

510
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000
and discussing the next thing, 
like how should it look? 

511
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,000
What are the challenges? 
What are the edge cases? 

512
00:24:06,000 --> 00:24:09,100
We try to predict these things 
so that we can get them out of 

513
00:24:09,100 --> 00:24:12,400
the way on day one, when we 
start actually working on it. 

514
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,500
There's a lot of definition from
the team itself that will build 

515
00:24:15,500 --> 00:24:18,500
it on what they're building and 
how they're building of course 

516
00:24:18,500 --> 00:24:20,100
this. 
Bill fails every once in a 

517
00:24:20,100 --> 00:24:22,600
while, but just the fact that 
you're very intentional about 

518
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,700
this preparation. 
In fact, the preparation is a 

519
00:24:25,700 --> 00:24:28,800
secondary track of work. 
Sometimes for people is very 

520
00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,700
important to make sure that 
you're blocked much less than 

521
00:24:31,700 --> 00:24:35,100
you would be by default. 
So I think it's a mixture of 

522
00:24:35,100 --> 00:24:39,200
these two things preparing as 
much as possible to avoid blocks

523
00:24:39,300 --> 00:24:42,000
and also training on. 
We're going to be blocked. 

524
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:43,600
Let's assume that's going to 
happen. 

525
00:24:43,700 --> 00:24:47,100
How can we minimize the impact 
of this blocks? 

526
00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:50,500
How can we maybe even make them?
Productive for example, I think 

527
00:24:50,500 --> 00:24:54,100
something we do fairly well is 
handle those priority two tasks 

528
00:24:54,100 --> 00:24:57,200
that most teams struggle with, 
because they often end up in 

529
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,800
that secondary track. 
So we slowly get work done that.

530
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:04,300
Maybe it's not as prioritized as
the main bulk of work. 

531
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,800
So, yeah, those two things, 
preparation, and also 

532
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:08,700
minimization of the impact are 
two things. 

533
00:25:08,700 --> 00:25:12,800
We invest very heavily in how 
about emergency incidents or 

534
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:15,400
support from customers? 
What would you do then? 

535
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,200
Especially if it touches 
multiple teams? 

536
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,500
That's interesting about us and 
this is something I think it's 

537
00:25:21,500 --> 00:25:23,200
an area where we will still 
grow. 

538
00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,300
So we separate those two things 
incidents, and user reports and 

539
00:25:27,300 --> 00:25:29,400
requests. 
We have this role internally, we

540
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,700
call the hero, we have one of 
these, There's a Hero protein, 

541
00:25:32,700 --> 00:25:35,600
per functional team and this 
person is constantly working 

542
00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:38,600
with our support team in 
improving things or customers 

543
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,200
fixing bugs. 
Trajan box. 

544
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:42,200
Providing technical feedback, 
where needed? 

545
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,400
We have this permanent presence 
working with the customers and 

546
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,700
this works fairly. 
Well, although it's quite 

547
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:50,600
tricky, run, onehand. 
Hand one person is really not. 

548
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,700
A lot of people working on this,
but on the other hand, this type

549
00:25:53,700 --> 00:25:55,700
of role. 
It's a bit like a black hole. 

550
00:25:55,700 --> 00:25:57,400
The more people would put 
working on this. 

551
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:00,000
The more people will be like 
100% utilized. 

552
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,000
So we have to balance this type 
of work. 

553
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,700
On the other hand, you mentioned
incidents and this is an area 

554
00:26:04,700 --> 00:26:07,300
where I think we lack some 
maturity because we don't have a

555
00:26:07,300 --> 00:26:11,300
really good setup for on Call. 
We don't have good definition of

556
00:26:11,300 --> 00:26:13,000
how our incident handling look 
like. 

557
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,900
I mean we have policies just 
like every other company, but if

558
00:26:15,900 --> 00:26:19,400
I'm honest we have very few 
incidents and in Instance, if 

559
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,400
this is unhelpful because it 
doesn't Force us to build a 

560
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:25,200
great culture around this. 
We actually had an instant 

561
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,300
recently with the last major 
incident before that was years 

562
00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:30,000
ago. 
That's like the state worryin. 

563
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:33,100
We don't have major incidents 
but there's also lenses to not 

564
00:26:33,100 --> 00:26:36,000
have to solve this problem. 
You asked about, so I'm not 

565
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:37,800
sure. 
I'm not sure how we're going to 

566
00:26:37,808 --> 00:26:40,600
scale in this regard, how we're 
going to nail this. 

567
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,200
Maybe it's something around the 
way. 

568
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,000
We tackle, support LED work with
the heroes. 

569
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:48,500
Maybe it will be something else,
but I'm unsure to be honest. 

570
00:26:48,700 --> 00:26:51,400
Well, if I have to choose, I 
would choose no incidents versus

571
00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,700
having to tackle a player for 
sure. 

572
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,600
The other thing for example, I 
also learned this from gitlab 

573
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,900
gillip is also one company who 
promotes this remote work. 

574
00:26:59,900 --> 00:27:03,100
So one thing they have is about 
no meeting unless you have a 

575
00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,700
clear agenda, everyone agrees on
something. 

576
00:27:05,700 --> 00:27:09,300
Before they actually go into a 
meeting and also chat like slack

577
00:27:09,300 --> 00:27:11,900
or I don't know any other chat 
probably is prohibited in a 

578
00:27:11,908 --> 00:27:14,200
sense. 
Does it work the same way for 

579
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,600
do? 
He's actually we don't use any 

580
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:18,600
chat tool. 
We use our own tool twist, which

581
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,100
More optimized for a long form, 
communication. 

582
00:27:21,100 --> 00:27:23,900
It still has checked built in 
but it's not front and center 

583
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:27,000
for all of these other 
synchronous processes meetings. 

584
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:29,100
As you said, we follow best 
practices. 

585
00:27:29,100 --> 00:27:31,600
So all of the meetings have an 
agenda, that's prepared 

586
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,800
beforehand by everyone involved.
All of the meetings have an 

587
00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,700
action section, which basically,
every time you meet somebody, 

588
00:27:37,700 --> 00:27:40,100
there should be things you need 
to act on you. 

589
00:27:40,100 --> 00:27:41,700
Take notes on these, I will do 
this. 

590
00:27:41,700 --> 00:27:44,400
You will do that. 
You can like split next steps 

591
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:46,800
with the other person. 
So we try to make them very 

592
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,000
actionable. 
We also Emmet their time and we 

593
00:27:50,008 --> 00:27:53,800
have meetings which span from 30
to 45 and 60 minutes. 

594
00:27:53,900 --> 00:27:55,700
And we try to be very diligent 
with this. 

595
00:27:55,700 --> 00:27:57,900
And again, it comes with 
preparation having an agenda 

596
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:01,000
going through that agenda and 
then figuring out the next steps

597
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,100
and documenting all of this. 
So yeah, we definitely follow 

598
00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:06,800
all of these processes and we 
try something else. 

599
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,000
I did live also does that? 
We also do is we have a lot of 

600
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,000
internal documentation. 
If most of the meetings that 

601
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:15,600
would be related with 
understanding something, they 

602
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,600
can be prevented because it's 
usually documented somewhere. 

603
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:21,500
So it's more about making 
documentation accessible and 

604
00:28:21,500 --> 00:28:24,500
well organized, so that people 
can Self Serve and find the 

605
00:28:24,500 --> 00:28:27,800
information they need, which I 
guess circles back to how we 

606
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,800
approach. 
Synchronous, communication and 

607
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,400
meetings more specifically 
looking for that human 

608
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,000
connection. 
So it doesn't really have a 

609
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,300
tactical value for us. 
Not most of the time, of course,

610
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,000
exceptions, but the actually 
track your employees tendency 

611
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:43,700
towards this meetings and chat 
because it could happen, 

612
00:28:43,700 --> 00:28:45,800
organically, right? 
Like for example, I just joined 

613
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,100
a company. 
I just spread messages or invite

614
00:28:48,100 --> 00:28:49,200
people to me. 
Meetings. 

615
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,000
But you actually are not aware 
about that. 

616
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:54,100
Do you actually track how much 
impact of this kind of behaviors

617
00:28:54,100 --> 00:28:57,100
and activities within company? 
No, we don't track people at 

618
00:28:57,100 --> 00:28:58,600
all. 
Don't believe in tracking. 

619
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,700
What we try to do is we try to 
Define this culture that I'm 

620
00:29:01,700 --> 00:29:04,100
describing you as much as 
possible and we do this and 

621
00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:07,100
doing this here with you today, 
but also we write about this all

622
00:29:07,100 --> 00:29:10,000
the time, not only in our blog, 
but also internal tooling and 

623
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,100
what we're trying to do is 
really get buy-in from people. 

624
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:15,400
We all need to believe in this 
approach to work. 

625
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:17,800
If somebody has a lot of 
meetings, we're not doing a good

626
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:19,900
job of explaining. 
I mean the culture and what, and

627
00:29:19,900 --> 00:29:22,100
the benefits. 
So we see it like that, as an 

628
00:29:22,100 --> 00:29:25,200
alignment thing, more than 
anything else, but we don't 

629
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,000
track and we definitely have a 
lot of room because we're all 

630
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,500
different, even if we're all 
aligned on the culture, if we 

631
00:29:30,500 --> 00:29:32,400
all agree. 
This is the way forward, even if

632
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,800
there's a lot of by into 
different people will have two 

633
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,400
different sets of needs and 
different sets of Tendencies. 

634
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,000
One of these people even if 
they're fully lined one of these

635
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,800
people maybe will prefer not to 
have any meetings and another 

636
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,600
person will prefer to have a few
meetings. 

637
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,400
We try to cater to these 
differences and even be very 

638
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,500
mindful of this for example. 
Pilar team leads have mostly a 

639
00:29:50,500 --> 00:29:54,100
fixed Cadence for meetings with 
their team members, but there 

640
00:29:54,100 --> 00:29:56,600
are a lot of individual 
optimization because we're all 

641
00:29:56,600 --> 00:29:59,500
different examples. 
Individuals prefer that meetings

642
00:29:59,500 --> 00:30:02,100
have very heavy preparation or 
hand. 

643
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:04,600
Even if their personal like 
one-on-one type of meetings 

644
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,800
writing down all of the topics 
providing a lot of context maybe

645
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:10,600
even having pre discussions 
before you actually meet with 

646
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,900
another person while other 
people will be more type of wing

647
00:30:13,900 --> 00:30:16,000
it. 
Yeah, let's get together a chat,

648
00:30:16,000 --> 00:30:18,500
see each other face to face and 
we'll see what comes up. 

649
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:21,700
We try to be mindful of these 
differences in not try to force 

650
00:30:21,700 --> 00:30:24,900
everybody into a single malt, 
but we don't track it all 

651
00:30:24,900 --> 00:30:28,100
definitely not how many meetings
were having not what people are 

652
00:30:28,100 --> 00:30:30,800
doing or how they're doing it. 
So in a way, if we're not 

653
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:33,700
convinced ourselves of this 
approach to work, then it's 

654
00:30:33,700 --> 00:30:36,600
going to be very difficult to 
convince the world that it's a 

655
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,100
worthy alternative. 
It makes sense to certainly so 

656
00:30:40,100 --> 00:30:43,200
such on this next topic, which 
is how do you hire people, 

657
00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,900
because I'm sure not everyone 
will be suitable for this kind 

658
00:30:46,900 --> 00:30:49,400
of work. 
So is there any Civics that you 

659
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,300
assess from the candidates. 
And after you hire them, how do 

660
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:54,600
you own board them? 
So that they are immersed into 

661
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:58,200
this culture. 
So something to note is it's 

662
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,100
definitely not all roses. 
And we have had cases in the 

663
00:31:01,100 --> 00:31:03,800
past of people with whom, we've 
done our best, or at least to 

664
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,400
the best of our knowledge at the
time. 

665
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:07,900
And things didn't work out, 
because remote work 

666
00:31:07,900 --> 00:31:10,900
asynchronous, communication. 
All of that was not working but 

667
00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:13,600
still, I think it's quite rare. 
I think, if I was looking from 

668
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,500
the outside, I would be 
surprised at how little this 

669
00:31:16,500 --> 00:31:18,500
happens actually going back a 
little bit. 

670
00:31:18,700 --> 00:31:22,000
To the hiring itself. 
We approach hiring by publishing

671
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:26,100
jobs online and relying a lot on
the internet to find candidates.

672
00:31:26,100 --> 00:31:29,400
We don't scold or hun people as 
much as I think as most 

673
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,800
companies do this is both good 
and bad. 

674
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,600
I guess we don't do this more 
because we can't afford the time

675
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:36,900
right now. 
And also when we were smaller 

676
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:39,600
and less known frankly, 
sometimes it took us a long time

677
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,800
to hire. 
It would be quite often to have 

678
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,200
a job posting up for many months
and not find the person we were 

679
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:46,700
looking for. 
So I just want to make that 

680
00:31:46,700 --> 00:31:48,500
disclaimer because don't do what
we did. 

681
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:50,800
If you're looking to hire fast 
because that's not going to 

682
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,300
work. 
The way we look for people is we

683
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:55,600
have a very strong definition of
the culture. 

684
00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,000
We're trying to uphold. 
And again, we do this via the 

685
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:00,100
internal discussion and 
documentation. 

686
00:32:00,100 --> 00:32:03,000
We have five core values. 
We have descriptions for these 

687
00:32:03,000 --> 00:32:06,400
core values and we try to use 
these in all of the 

688
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,900
decision-making we do, which 
also affects hiring. 

689
00:32:08,900 --> 00:32:11,700
So, when we're looking for new 
candidates, we look for traits 

690
00:32:11,700 --> 00:32:14,900
around these core values and 
making sure the people will fit 

691
00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:16,600
into them. 
One of them as I mentioned 

692
00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,500
before, for example, is 
independence. 

693
00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:21,900
One people who are autonomous to
take ownership over things and 

694
00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:25,700
who generally act like owners of
the things that they are doing. 

695
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,100
We also have another value 
around communication. 

696
00:32:28,100 --> 00:32:30,700
We obviously, we need great 
communicators because 

697
00:32:30,700 --> 00:32:34,200
communication is expensive when 
your remotes expensive TimeWise.

698
00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:37,400
It takes a lot of time to write 
to think, to lay out your 

699
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,500
thoughts in a structured Manner.
And so, we need people who are 

700
00:32:40,500 --> 00:32:43,400
really great at communicating. 
We use the hiring process to 

701
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:47,000
probe for these traits 
basically, so, my recommendation

702
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,700
would be to figure out What 
exactly you want to be as a 

703
00:32:50,708 --> 00:32:52,500
company? 
That's what we try to do. 

704
00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:55,100
And also be very ruthless in 
prioritizing. 

705
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:57,800
At some point. 
We had 12 core values and when 

706
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,200
we realized that some people in 
the company, didn't know all of 

707
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,200
them by heart also because 
they're 12. 

708
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,700
That's when we understood. 
Okay, we need to change. 

709
00:33:04,700 --> 00:33:07,800
We need to make this so easy to 
understand that we find 

710
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:09,700
ourselves using this all the 
time. 

711
00:33:09,700 --> 00:33:12,400
Now are thinking in our 
reasoning decision making, and 

712
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:16,000
that's what it also, when you're
hiring, and you're probing for 

713
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,500
these core values, there needs 
to be some room. 

714
00:33:18,700 --> 00:33:20,900
For whatever, technical skill, 
you're looking for. 

715
00:33:20,900 --> 00:33:23,600
If you're hiring an engineer, 
you should only look for the 

716
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:25,600
core values themselves. 
You need to assess how 

717
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,500
technically the person is able 
to tackle the challenges, you 

718
00:33:28,500 --> 00:33:31,500
want them to tackle and so on. 
I'm not presenting this as a 

719
00:33:31,500 --> 00:33:34,500
exclusive way of assessing 
people, but it should be part of

720
00:33:34,500 --> 00:33:36,900
the process regarding 
onboarding. 

721
00:33:36,900 --> 00:33:40,100
We do some things to set up 
people for success as much as 

722
00:33:40,100 --> 00:33:42,500
possible. 
One of them is having again 

723
00:33:42,500 --> 00:33:45,400
going back to that earlier topic
having a lot of documentation 

724
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,300
available. 
So we want people to come in and

725
00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:50,300
be able to understand How we do 
things, why we do things, the 

726
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:53,100
way we do, we want all of this 
information to be very 

727
00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:55,100
accessible, very transparent to 
people. 

728
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:58,400
And then we also designed the 
onboarding process to make it a 

729
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:01,900
little bit easier to ramp up. 
For example, the first three 

730
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:04,500
months, when people join do is 
start generally, they're 

731
00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:08,500
intentionally designed number 
one to provide small wins along 

732
00:34:08,500 --> 00:34:10,300
the way. 
And number two to expose people 

733
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:12,400
to all kinds of work. 
They will be doing in the 

734
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,199
future. 
There's a lightweight version of

735
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:16,800
course, but making sure. 
For example, I mentioned the 

736
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:18,500
hero role before the person that
works. 

737
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,100
It's support new hires 
generally, spend a little bit of

738
00:34:21,100 --> 00:34:24,699
time in the beginning, being the
hero and something else we do is

739
00:34:24,699 --> 00:34:27,300
they have a mentor. 
So there's an explicitly point 

740
00:34:27,300 --> 00:34:30,100
of contact for them to reach out
to for any doubts. 

741
00:34:30,100 --> 00:34:32,699
They have. 
This person is the default, 

742
00:34:32,699 --> 00:34:34,400
right? 
So we try to be having a very 

743
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,100
open culture. 
Everybody is accessible. 

744
00:34:36,100 --> 00:34:38,500
But sometimes you hire somebody,
they still don't know everybody,

745
00:34:38,500 --> 00:34:41,699
they're a bit shy. 
So to break down that wall from 

746
00:34:41,699 --> 00:34:43,199
day one. 
There is a mentor, you have a 

747
00:34:43,207 --> 00:34:46,000
mentor and you'll be in contact 
with this person on a day-to-day

748
00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,400
basis for the first three months
when we're not. 

749
00:34:48,500 --> 00:34:50,600
Not going through a major 
pandemic. 

750
00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,699
We also have people actually fly
over to either their mentors 

751
00:34:54,699 --> 00:34:57,600
location or have their Mentor 
fly over to the new person's 

752
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:00,200
location and spend a couple of 
weeks working together building 

753
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:04,300
that initial connection. 
The mentor has a Monumental role

754
00:35:04,300 --> 00:35:06,300
for us. 
For example, the workflow. 

755
00:35:06,300 --> 00:35:09,900
I was describing to you before 
of having a secondary tasks that

756
00:35:09,900 --> 00:35:12,000
you can switch to. 
If you get blocked, this is 

757
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,200
something we often have to coach
people into doing, how to detect

758
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,800
that you're going to be blocked 
how to prevent being blocked. 

759
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:21,100
And if you're How to rather 
quickly jump into that secondary

760
00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:23,300
task in that return. 
This is something that's 

761
00:35:23,300 --> 00:35:25,900
obviously very specific to 
remote work and asynchronous, 

762
00:35:25,900 --> 00:35:29,100
communication and dementor of a 
new person were hiring has a 

763
00:35:29,100 --> 00:35:31,600
fundamental role in explaining. 
This is normal. 

764
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,200
It's okay. 
It's documented here. 

765
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:36,600
You can read more about this 
year and share all of these 

766
00:35:36,600 --> 00:35:39,400
experiences together with the 
person, I think. 

767
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,900
Designing, the onboarding very 
explicitly to put people through

768
00:35:42,900 --> 00:35:44,900
what their day-to-day will look 
like in the future. 

769
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,900
And also set them up for success
and learning expectations, being

770
00:35:47,900 --> 00:35:50,200
very transparent. 
A parent about things is very 

771
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,500
important. 
The last thing is having 

772
00:35:52,500 --> 00:35:55,800
Milestones, when your onboarding
in a company, in a new culture, 

773
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,300
there's things you're learning, 
if you're an engineer, not only 

774
00:35:58,300 --> 00:36:00,300
technical things. 
But also how do things work 

775
00:36:00,300 --> 00:36:02,400
around here? 
Having these milestones, for 

776
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,500
example, for us after 3 months, 
your over to trial period. 

777
00:36:05,500 --> 00:36:08,500
But there's also a monthly check
in on how things are going. 

778
00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:11,400
This is super important. 
We all talk about having tight 

779
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:14,100
feedback loops and there's the 
super interesting concept. 

780
00:36:14,100 --> 00:36:16,200
Radical Candor. 
There was a book around this 

781
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,600
very popular a few years ago you
need Embrace this, if you're 

782
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,900
working remotely because remote 
work can be very opaque if you 

783
00:36:22,900 --> 00:36:25,900
don't make it very transparent. 
So you might be onboarding, 

784
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:28,000
someone, maybe you're having 
some doubts. 

785
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,100
Maybe there's something, they're
not doing that. 

786
00:36:30,100 --> 00:36:33,600
Well, if you don't communicate 
about this explicitly, most 

787
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,300
often than not, people will not 
know. 

788
00:36:35,300 --> 00:36:38,400
This is another thing that in an
office you can pick up body 

789
00:36:38,400 --> 00:36:39,800
language. 
You can indirectly. 

790
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:43,300
Realize this is happening even 
though hopefully that's not the 

791
00:36:43,300 --> 00:36:45,900
only way you get negative 
feedback, but making sure that 

792
00:36:45,900 --> 00:36:49,400
when your onboarding someone you
also have Room for a very 

793
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:51,600
explicit feedback. 
Like these are the things you're

794
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:53,600
doing really well. 
These are things, I think you 

795
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,100
could be doing better. 
This is super important to make 

796
00:36:56,100 --> 00:36:59,300
sure that people are very 
aligned on how things are going.

797
00:36:59,300 --> 00:37:01,600
And then again, this is 
something we did struggle with 

798
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,500
at some point in the past where 
we were, maybe two asynchronous 

799
00:37:04,500 --> 00:37:08,100
to lose to unstructured with how
we were onboarding people. 

800
00:37:08,300 --> 00:37:10,500
There were people who didn't 
make it at the end of the 

801
00:37:10,500 --> 00:37:13,300
onboarding process, and it was a
surprise for them. 

802
00:37:13,300 --> 00:37:15,900
This is the worst feeling. 
I think, when you notice 

803
00:37:15,900 --> 00:37:18,400
something was not working and 
you were not aligned in the sex,

804
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:21,200
Station. 
This means communicated poorly. 

805
00:37:21,300 --> 00:37:24,200
This means you didn't give a 
chance to the person to adjust. 

806
00:37:24,300 --> 00:37:26,600
If they don't know. 
I'm glad we haven't had anything

807
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,500
like this in the last few years,
but we did went through a stage 

808
00:37:29,500 --> 00:37:32,100
where we were not thinking 
intentionally enough about you 

809
00:37:32,100 --> 00:37:34,600
onboarding process and this was 
hurting us in the feedback 

810
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,000
stage. 
So for sure, I guess feedback is

811
00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,600
that last piece of the puzzle 
making sure there's a lot of 

812
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,200
room for feedback and making it 
very explicit. 

813
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,900
It's okay to have occurred 
meetings where I'm supposed to 

814
00:37:44,900 --> 00:37:47,300
provide feedback to you, but I 
don't have much to say all is 

815
00:37:47,300 --> 00:37:48,400
good. 
This is okay. 

816
00:37:48,500 --> 00:37:51,500
But there is a checkpoint saying
at this point with sync up and 

817
00:37:51,500 --> 00:37:54,500
this is very important. 
In the end onboarding should be 

818
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:56,600
about setting people up for 
success. 

819
00:37:56,900 --> 00:38:00,000
And there's many areas to this, 
having them experiments, all 

820
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:01,800
kinds of work. 
You will be dealing with is 

821
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,200
important. 
Having a mentor for them. 

822
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:07,100
Especially in remote is 
important regardless of how 

823
00:38:07,100 --> 00:38:10,100
accessible your team. 
He's and how transparent things 

824
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:12,200
are. 
Just having that go to point of 

825
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:16,100
contact makes things very easy. 
The third area is coaching. 

826
00:38:16,300 --> 00:38:19,000
There's a lot of aspects that 
will be specific to your Team 

827
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,700
within remote work and 
asynchronous communication. 

828
00:38:21,700 --> 00:38:24,300
It's okay to coach people. 
If you have a lot of 

829
00:38:24,300 --> 00:38:27,200
documentation, this really 
helps, but also the mentor plays

830
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,100
a crucial role in saying, you 
know, this is normal or here's 

831
00:38:30,100 --> 00:38:31,800
how you can tackle this in the 
future. 

832
00:38:32,100 --> 00:38:34,900
This is very important in the 
last, as I said, feedback loops 

833
00:38:34,900 --> 00:38:36,900
making sure they're there front 
and center. 

834
00:38:37,300 --> 00:38:40,200
Yeah, I like the feedback aspect
because obviously even without 

835
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:42,500
remote work asynchronous, 
sometimes, like working from 

836
00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:46,400
home, you sometimes tend to have
less of feedback or maybe you 

837
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:47,900
don't know the feedback straight
away. 

838
00:38:47,900 --> 00:38:51,300
Because It takes time or maybe 
you have to go through either 

839
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:54,000
chat or meeting or maybe 
schedule, one-on-one or things 

840
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,500
like that before you can 
actually get immediate feedback.

841
00:38:56,500 --> 00:38:58,900
So I think, yeah. 
Having such a feedback Cadence 

842
00:38:58,900 --> 00:39:01,200
or will be important. 
Nevertheless, if you are working

843
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,900
remotely or not. 
So, I'm also intrigued by the 

844
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:07,500
five core values, you mentioned 
Independence and communication. 

845
00:39:07,500 --> 00:39:10,400
What are the other three? 
The other three core values. 

846
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,900
Our Mastery impact ambition and 
balance. 

847
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:16,000
I know this is a trick. 
We're using, you could say, 

848
00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,500
these are six, but we look at 
ambition, and Once as a bit of a

849
00:39:19,500 --> 00:39:22,200
yin and yang. 
So one doesn't exist without the

850
00:39:22,200 --> 00:39:24,300
other. 
I really like the definition 

851
00:39:24,300 --> 00:39:27,700
that James Cleary uses of 
balance where he defines a 

852
00:39:27,707 --> 00:39:30,900
balance as being when you're 
working those eight hours, your 

853
00:39:30,900 --> 00:39:34,600
100% working ruthlessly and then
when you're resting you are 

854
00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,400
arresting 100% ruthlessly, so 
that's what balance really means

855
00:39:38,500 --> 00:39:40,100
and we really like that 
definition. 

856
00:39:40,100 --> 00:39:42,200
The problem is if you just write
balance, you can be 

857
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,300
misinterpreted maybe in B 
complaisance notion and we 

858
00:39:45,300 --> 00:39:47,500
wanted to make sure this is like
we work hard. 

859
00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:48,800
And then we rest. 
Heart. 

860
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,500
That's how we try to behave, 
similarly, with impact. 

861
00:39:51,500 --> 00:39:53,800
Its focusing on high impact 
things. 

862
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,800
Basically, there will always be 
more work to do than we can do. 

863
00:39:56,900 --> 00:40:00,200
So being very explicit about 
trade-offs and privatization is 

864
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:02,400
something we value very highly 
in people. 

865
00:40:02,500 --> 00:40:05,200
And the last one that I 
mentioned is Mastery. 

866
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:08,100
Yeah, I guess Mastery applies to
a lot of companies, but we 

867
00:40:08,100 --> 00:40:09,900
really want to be good in our 
craft. 

868
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:12,800
We want us and our people like 
all of do is tears to have a 

869
00:40:12,808 --> 00:40:16,000
craft and we want to be very 
good at what we do and be very 

870
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,400
ambitious moving forward. 
We try to keep things simple. 

871
00:40:18,500 --> 00:40:21,700
Both of these five core values 
because another advantage to 

872
00:40:21,700 --> 00:40:24,600
having a small set of core 
values is that these ideas don't

873
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,600
necessarily compete with each 
other. 

874
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,200
Sometimes, when we find a list 
of core values, that are larger 

875
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,500
15-20, you will often find 
contradicting points. 

876
00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:35,800
These core values can compete 
with one another in certain 

877
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:37,800
situations. 
We want to avoid this as much as

878
00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,800
possible. 
So, for example, one of our core

879
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,500
values is Independence, so we do
expect us to be very mature 

880
00:40:43,500 --> 00:40:46,100
about handling work, 
independently finding ways to 

881
00:40:46,100 --> 00:40:48,300
work. 
Autonomously always striving to 

882
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:50,200
Take ownership over pieces of 
work. 

883
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:53,100
This is expected. 
And so other things like 

884
00:40:53,100 --> 00:40:56,300
co-ownership a something. 
For example, we don't do as much

885
00:40:56,300 --> 00:40:59,300
and I guess we will eventually 
discuss more technical things 

886
00:40:59,300 --> 00:41:01,600
including pair programming. 
These are things. 

887
00:41:01,700 --> 00:41:05,300
We don't discard ever but we 
don't do them very often because

888
00:41:05,300 --> 00:41:07,100
they're not aligned with our 
core values. 

889
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,900
Before we go to technical 
discussions. 

890
00:41:09,900 --> 00:41:12,600
One more question regarding this
remote working culture. 

891
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:14,400
So what are the role of 
managers? 

892
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,900
Like, how many managers does do?
We have? 

893
00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:20,000
And what are there? 
Support core skills that they 

894
00:41:20,000 --> 00:41:21,700
need to have for working 
remotely. 

895
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:24,900
Being a manager do is is a very 
demanding role. 

896
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,800
Generally speaking. 
We have about 12 managers and 

897
00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000
worry about 85 in the company. 
Right now. 

898
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,100
The reason I say this is we're 
structured in a functional 

899
00:41:33,100 --> 00:41:35,000
manner. 
So we have a design team and 

900
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,400
Android team Apple team Etc. 
And we expect teams to have a 

901
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:41,600
very strong vision for their own
function. 

902
00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:44,500
There are many things which are 
specific to design the, you 

903
00:41:44,500 --> 00:41:47,200
know, Design Systems how they're
built out their lead. 

904
00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:49,500
We expect the design. 
Team to own these things. 

905
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,200
But even for the technical 
teams, are Android team, Android

906
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,700
has a lot of new features. 
Every year that might not be 

907
00:41:54,700 --> 00:41:56,500
directly related with our 
products. 

908
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:59,700
But we expect the Android team 
to have a vision about how to 

909
00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:03,700
bring this into the product. 
So I say this management role is

910
00:42:03,700 --> 00:42:07,200
very demanding because our 
heads, for example, our head of 

911
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,400
Android. 
He is responsible not only to 

912
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,700
manage and organize the Android 
team, but also making sure the 

913
00:42:12,700 --> 00:42:15,500
team has a strong vision and 
that we're going towards that 

914
00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:17,800
strong Vision. 
That spends, not only technical 

915
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,600
traits, but So functional traits
and on top of this, our managers

916
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,700
are mostly Hands-On. 
Obviously not most of the time 

917
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:27,900
in most cases not even half of 
the time, but they are technical

918
00:42:27,900 --> 00:42:30,600
managers. 
So, our managers are able to 

919
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,700
have technical discussions with 
the team to support the teeming 

920
00:42:33,700 --> 00:42:35,800
technical ways and even unblock 
the team. 

921
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:39,300
It's super useful to have a 
manage that can try at work that

922
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:42,100
can get rid of that nagging, 
small tasks, that doesn't get 

923
00:42:42,100 --> 00:42:44,800
out of the way so that the team 
can focus on the big things. 

924
00:42:44,900 --> 00:42:49,000
So it's really a tough job. 
I would say so, Us move on to 

925
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,000
the technical aspects because 
this podcast also has a lot of 

926
00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:54,700
technical aspect of it. 
I'm quite intrigued as well. 

927
00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:57,000
When you said just now, pair 
programming is not something 

928
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,300
that you do quite often. 
It is one of the common best 

929
00:43:00,300 --> 00:43:03,600
practices when people talk about
building high-quality software 

930
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,400
and things like that, right? 
So, pair, programming, 

931
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,800
colocation and having a lot of 
interactions are typically. 

932
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,900
The practices that people will 
mention in terms of building 

933
00:43:11,900 --> 00:43:14,800
high-quality software, while in 
the remote work, coming back to 

934
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:18,200
your asynchronous first and all 
the other working aspects of 

935
00:43:18,500 --> 00:43:20,200
Well, it seems like 
contradicting. 

936
00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:23,900
So maybe you can share your 
thoughts about this to be clear.

937
00:43:23,900 --> 00:43:25,700
I have nothing against pair 
programming. 

938
00:43:25,700 --> 00:43:27,900
I think actually, it's an 
amazing way to work. 

939
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,600
It's just not very suitable for 
working remotely and I want to 

940
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,700
reinforce that we have a team 
that spends the whole world. 

941
00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:37,000
Even if there is some overlap of
time zones. 

942
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:40,200
This is not guaranteed and we 
try to work with processes that 

943
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,600
have some guarantees. 
We want to ensure we have 

944
00:43:42,600 --> 00:43:46,000
processes that support this so 
we don't discard car programming

945
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:47,300
at all. 
If people want to do it they 

946
00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,800
should do it, but it Happen that
often instead, we focus on 

947
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:54,200
things that lend themselves to 
working asynchronously to. 

948
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,600
So, for example, we have a very 
fleshed-out review process. 

949
00:43:57,800 --> 00:44:00,500
We have very strong guidelines 
on how reviews should be 

950
00:44:00,500 --> 00:44:02,700
approached. 
Our reviews are very thorough. 

951
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:05,300
For example, we're not only 
looking at the code or the 

952
00:44:05,300 --> 00:44:08,300
architecture, the reviewers also
check out the code and test it 

953
00:44:08,300 --> 00:44:10,800
and run it and look for edge 
cases and do a little bit of 

954
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,800
Q&A. 
We try to make sure that the 

955
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:16,000
code goes through this process 
where it is reviewed in a lot of

956
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:18,300
detail and honestly, the 
reviewer kind of becomes 

957
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:19,800
Co-owner. 
I'm approving. 

958
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:20,900
This. 
I know how it works. 

959
00:44:20,900 --> 00:44:22,700
I know how it looks like. 
I know how the user will 

960
00:44:22,700 --> 00:44:25,900
experience this data. 
Has my seal of approval and we 

961
00:44:25,900 --> 00:44:28,100
have really good guidelines on 
how reviews should be 

962
00:44:28,100 --> 00:44:29,600
approached. 
For example, to make them 

963
00:44:29,600 --> 00:44:32,100
consistency across teams and 
across the company. 

964
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:35,200
Besides this, we try to automate
a lot of things. 

965
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:39,100
For example, we have very strong
linking setups at this point. 

966
00:44:39,100 --> 00:44:42,300
Also to ensure that consistency 
when the review time comes 

967
00:44:42,300 --> 00:44:45,900
around, we are focused on the 
higher level aspects of the code

968
00:44:45,900 --> 00:44:47,400
and how it looks and how it 
works. 

969
00:44:47,500 --> 00:44:50,000
Automation is a Very big scope, 
but there are many, big 

970
00:44:50,000 --> 00:44:52,500
advantages to automating things.
Especially when you're working 

971
00:44:52,500 --> 00:44:54,800
asynchronously. 
If you define, I mentioned 

972
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,400
linking in passing, but 
basically, what that means is 

973
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:00,500
you're defining as a team and it
should be a team process. 

974
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:03,900
How you want the details in the 
code to look like and your coded

975
00:45:03,900 --> 00:45:05,400
flying this into some kind of 
tool. 

976
00:45:05,500 --> 00:45:07,900
So you don't have to do this 
over and over again and that 

977
00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:10,800
frees up your brain power to 
focus on other aspects. 

978
00:45:10,900 --> 00:45:12,600
Similarly. 
There are other ends of 

979
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:14,100
automation, which improve 
quality. 

980
00:45:14,100 --> 00:45:15,900
For example, continuous 
integration. 

981
00:45:16,100 --> 00:45:18,200
I think remote teams should 
really invest. 

982
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:21,600
In there CI setups so that you 
can get out of the way. 

983
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:23,800
That things work. 
You have good testing practices.

984
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:27,100
If you have good CI, you will, 
of course, this doesn't prevent 

985
00:45:27,100 --> 00:45:29,600
all of the problems but it 
actually prevents a lot of the 

986
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,100
problems. 
And it lets you, for example, do

987
00:45:32,100 --> 00:45:35,200
bigger, refractors more 
confidently alone. 

988
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:38,900
So it's just optimizing for that
working alone, feeling. 

989
00:45:38,900 --> 00:45:41,400
So that when you do have a 
chance to pair program with 

990
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:43,600
somebody, it's a bonus. 
It comes on top. 

991
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,400
It's not an expectation. 
And this is really important. 

992
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:47,900
Something else we try to do as 
well. 

993
00:45:47,900 --> 00:45:50,900
That remotes working 
independently is circling back 

994
00:45:50,900 --> 00:45:53,200
to documentation. 
We have very strong, very 

995
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,100
thorough style guides. 
We have a lot of documentation 

996
00:45:56,100 --> 00:45:59,500
on how the moving parts of our 
applications look like and why 

997
00:45:59,500 --> 00:46:02,200
they look like the way they look
like the higher level ideas. 

998
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,300
We try to document them as much 
as possible. 

999
00:46:04,300 --> 00:46:06,500
We're not there. 
And I wonder, will we ever be 

1000
00:46:06,500 --> 00:46:08,000
there? 
But we want to get to a point 

1001
00:46:08,000 --> 00:46:11,200
where we hire somebody they come
in and we can say, hey, there's 

1002
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,600
this section of our Handbook, 
look at it. 

1003
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,000
And if you actually read all of 
this, you will know almost as 

1004
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,200
much as we do. 
We really try to invest in 

1005
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:22,000
Self-serve approach to the 
technical side of things. 

1006
00:46:22,100 --> 00:46:25,100
The reason people peer review, 
not only because it's fun and it

1007
00:46:25,107 --> 00:46:27,000
leads to higher quality work. 
Of course. 

1008
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,600
It's also because there are two 
people figuring out a problem 

1009
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:31,700
alone. 
So the thing we try to optimize 

1010
00:46:31,700 --> 00:46:34,900
for is when you're working 
alone, you don't actually feel 

1011
00:46:34,900 --> 00:46:37,500
alone because there's great 
support for the work that you're

1012
00:46:37,500 --> 00:46:39,500
doing. 
In terms of documentation. 

1013
00:46:39,500 --> 00:46:42,900
In terms of the tooling, all of 
the setup around you is set up 

1014
00:46:42,900 --> 00:46:46,300
in a way where you're not alone 
where you are supporting we try 

1015
00:46:46,300 --> 00:46:49,100
to optimize for this and then of
course, We end with a very 

1016
00:46:49,100 --> 00:46:52,400
thorough peer review to bring 
that human element into the mix.

1017
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:56,000
So I also assume that in the 
beginning before somebody 

1018
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:59,500
submits the work for review that
might be a definition of done of

1019
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,200
maybe checklist may be used to 
do is to do that. 

1020
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,400
I don't know but it's like a 
checklist of. 

1021
00:47:04,400 --> 00:47:07,100
Okay, here are the things that 
you need to check before you 

1022
00:47:07,100 --> 00:47:09,500
actually can submit for review. 
Is that how it works as well. 

1023
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:11,600
So that you minimize all these 
contradicting. 

1024
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,400
Things that probably cannot be 
automated or maybe it's just too

1025
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,800
costly to automate. 
Yes. 

1026
00:47:16,900 --> 00:47:20,100
So this is part of our 
Investment in documentation, we 

1027
00:47:20,100 --> 00:47:24,200
start most pieces of work with a
speck and I'm using this term 

1028
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:27,600
very Loosely but what I mean by 
aspect it can be a product spec 

1029
00:47:27,600 --> 00:47:30,200
if this is a feature or 
technical spec if this is a more

1030
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:33,100
Technical Center piece of work, 
we try to be very thorough in 

1031
00:47:33,100 --> 00:47:35,000
detailing. 
What are we doing? 

1032
00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:37,800
Why are we doing it? 
And what's done looks, as you 

1033
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,900
described, the thing to note is,
we don't give this to Engineers.

1034
00:47:41,900 --> 00:47:44,500
So to speak. 
We actually want the teams to 

1035
00:47:44,500 --> 00:47:47,300
build this themselves. 
So even the product team as we 

1036
00:47:47,300 --> 00:47:50,100
work through a problem. 
Um, is more focused on what is 

1037
00:47:50,100 --> 00:47:53,600
the problem itself, then maybe 
the solution because, as I said 

1038
00:47:53,600 --> 00:47:56,400
before, we assemble squads 
cross-functional squads to work 

1039
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,900
on things. 
And we try to ensure that this 

1040
00:47:59,000 --> 00:48:02,500
discovery process is owned by 
the team itself because This 

1041
00:48:02,500 --> 00:48:04,400
lends to our independence core 
value. 

1042
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:07,300
We're back at this again, and 
even technical pieces of work. 

1043
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:09,800
Sometimes you can start a 
problem with, we have a lot of 

1044
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,100
problems related. 
We building. 

1045
00:48:11,100 --> 00:48:13,800
We need to refactor billing. 
That's the problem statement. 

1046
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,500
Then the engineer who will work 
on this will actually do some 

1047
00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:18,200
investigation. 
Work, some tragic. 

1048
00:48:18,300 --> 00:48:20,000
And figure out the scope of the 
work. 

1049
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,300
This is the amount of work. 
I think we should do to tackle 

1050
00:48:22,300 --> 00:48:25,500
the problem in an efficient way.
Like, of course, we could spend 

1051
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:28,300
years rebuilding building all 
the time and we could maybe do a

1052
00:48:28,300 --> 00:48:31,000
small fixed, that doesn't really
address the underlying problem, 

1053
00:48:31,100 --> 00:48:34,400
finding that balance between a 
long-term investment and a, 

1054
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,000
short-term investment. 
We also expect Engineers to be 

1055
00:48:37,000 --> 00:48:40,000
making these calls again, 
because of the independence core

1056
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:43,200
value, but we translate these 
calls into the specs. 

1057
00:48:43,200 --> 00:48:46,500
So we make the process very 
transparent when we start work. 

1058
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,000
It should be very clear. 
Generally speaking. 

1059
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,700
This is not possible sometimes, 
but most of the times it should 

1060
00:48:51,700 --> 00:48:54,100
be very clear. 
What is the exact scope of work 

1061
00:48:54,100 --> 00:48:57,400
and what success looks like? 
So I could also Imagine as a 

1062
00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,000
start-up. 
So any kind of a product 

1063
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:02,200
companies you have maybe 
hundreds of features or bucks 

1064
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:03,900
and you mentioned, you look 
cross-functionally. 

1065
00:49:03,900 --> 00:49:06,100
There's like a product team. 
There's also engineering team 

1066
00:49:06,100 --> 00:49:09,400
which is subdivided by platform 
using Android web and things 

1067
00:49:09,400 --> 00:49:10,900
like that. 
So how do you ensure this 

1068
00:49:10,900 --> 00:49:13,900
privatization of okay, which 
features should I do now? 

1069
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,400
Because it seems like the 
engineer will need to come up 

1070
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:18,100
with the investigation to try 
aging. 

1071
00:49:18,300 --> 00:49:20,800
In this bag and estimation, and 
things like that. 

1072
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,600
So how does this process work? 
Is this like, you come up 

1073
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:25,400
together in one meeting? 
Okay. 

1074
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,600
Let's pick some of those things 
that we will do for the next few

1075
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:30,800
months or so, I guess, like, 
most teams. 

1076
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,800
We have some conflicts of 
prioritization. 

1077
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,900
I mean, this in a good way. 
We want to do more work than 

1078
00:49:35,900 --> 00:49:38,200
what we can do. 
But something we invest very 

1079
00:49:38,200 --> 00:49:41,100
heavily and I'm not sure how 
much this will scale, but it's 

1080
00:49:41,100 --> 00:49:44,600
working pretty well for us. 
It's pre allocation of effort. 

1081
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:47,900
So, as you can imagine, this is 
not only about which feature to 

1082
00:49:47,900 --> 00:49:48,500
work. 
Khan. 

1083
00:49:48,500 --> 00:49:51,900
It has many ramifications like 
which feature to work on but 

1084
00:49:51,900 --> 00:49:54,600
also, how do you balance feature
and internal work? 

1085
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,300
And also, we have two products? 
How do we balance working on one

1086
00:49:57,300 --> 00:49:59,800
product versus working on the 
other product? 

1087
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,400
The thing we try to do as much 
as possible is just pre 

1088
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:06,400
allocating and then making small
adjustments as we go to make 

1089
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,600
sure we're putting as much 
effort into things as with like.

1090
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,300
So for example, I mentioned to 
you before that we have one 

1091
00:50:12,300 --> 00:50:15,200
person per team who is the hero,
which is what we call the 

1092
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,200
support let roll. 
So we're pre allocating in, 

1093
00:50:18,300 --> 00:50:21,000
Where things are great. 
We have one hero in months where

1094
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,100
we have for some reason. 
A lot of issues. 

1095
00:50:23,100 --> 00:50:25,800
We still have one hero and 
that's just how it works. 

1096
00:50:25,800 --> 00:50:28,600
Even the split between two 2s 
and three, sweep reallocated. 

1097
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:31,100
You have this rough percentage 
of effort. 

1098
00:50:31,100 --> 00:50:33,900
We should be putting into each 
of the products and we have 

1099
00:50:33,900 --> 00:50:35,700
tweaked this in the past mind 
you. 

1100
00:50:35,700 --> 00:50:38,700
So this is not fixed or static 
and honestly anybody can 

1101
00:50:38,700 --> 00:50:41,800
challenge this in the company 
and often people do and we 

1102
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,900
adjust, but once we settle on an
Umma number we commit to it, so 

1103
00:50:45,900 --> 00:50:47,700
we're not discussing this all 
the time. 

1104
00:50:47,900 --> 00:50:51,100
There's Varying degrees of pre 
allocation and we even try to do

1105
00:50:51,100 --> 00:50:53,300
this around product work. 
Let me explain. 

1106
00:50:53,300 --> 00:50:56,300
We have a very transparent and 
Democratic process around 

1107
00:50:56,300 --> 00:50:57,400
product. 
Luckily. 

1108
00:50:57,400 --> 00:50:59,500
We have a team that is very 
products minded. 

1109
00:50:59,500 --> 00:51:02,000
People have a lot of ideas on 
how to improve things and that's

1110
00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:03,700
great. 
And we have a workflow where 

1111
00:51:03,700 --> 00:51:06,600
people propose their ideas, and 
they make a pitch, like why we 

1112
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,400
should do this as you can 
imagine. 

1113
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,300
We have a lot more ideas than we
can actually execute on. 

1114
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,600
But the thing we do is we have 
these high level themes that 

1115
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:18,100
spent many months, usually half 
a year and nine months one year.

1116
00:51:18,300 --> 00:51:22,000
Most lately and these themes. 
Help us filter and narrow down 

1117
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:25,700
the things we should focus on. 
For example, this year for to do

1118
00:51:25,700 --> 00:51:29,000
is we decided we would be 
working on visualization, 

1119
00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:32,100
visualization of your data, of 
your tasks, and being able to 

1120
00:51:32,100 --> 00:51:34,800
slice and dice your data in 
useful ways. 

1121
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:37,800
For example, we introduced the 
upcoming view, which is like a 

1122
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:41,000
never-ending list of tasks for 
the future in all future, that 

1123
00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:42,800
it's we introduced the board's 
view. 

1124
00:51:42,900 --> 00:51:45,700
So, looking at your task in 
columns, instead of just being a

1125
00:51:45,700 --> 00:51:48,600
task list and now we're going to
launch something very Soon which

1126
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,900
we call sorting options which, 
you know, is being able to sort 

1127
00:51:51,900 --> 00:51:54,800
and group your tasks by any 
criteria in any of you. 

1128
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:57,800
The reason I'm mentioning this 
is this pre allocation pre 

1129
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,000
decisions. 
They really help us prevent a 

1130
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,700
lot of conflict and honestly, 
spend a lot of energy, because 

1131
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:06,400
if we don't do this, we're going
to be arguing about what to do 

1132
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:08,700
next all the time. 
And it's not always going to be 

1133
00:52:08,700 --> 00:52:09,800
super clear. 
Now. 

1134
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:13,800
The thing to note is we try to 
be very transparent about why we

1135
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,400
pick the beans, we pick. 
Like we picked to the rest-- 

1136
00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:19,600
views, for example, and we 
Documentation and at large 

1137
00:52:19,600 --> 00:52:22,900
internal discussion on why this 
is the best course of action for

1138
00:52:22,900 --> 00:52:25,800
to do is that the time it has to
do with our competition, the 

1139
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:29,000
market also because of the 
pandemic are resorting more to 

1140
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:32,400
task management and want to see 
their tasks in very specific 

1141
00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:34,200
ways. 
We're all different giving all 

1142
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:37,000
of these options to people will 
position to the wrists, very 

1143
00:52:37,000 --> 00:52:39,300
strongly in the market against 
the competition because it 

1144
00:52:39,300 --> 00:52:42,600
becomes very versatile. 
So, we decided to focus on this 

1145
00:52:42,600 --> 00:52:44,600
and then we look at our backlog 
and see, okay? 

1146
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,700
What fits into this theme? 
We extend this reallocation to 

1147
00:52:47,700 --> 00:52:49,900
engineering, Ring as well. 
At the moment. 

1148
00:52:49,900 --> 00:52:54,400
We try to have roughly 20% of 
our effort, put purely into 

1149
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:56,900
internal type of work. 
We improving the foundations of 

1150
00:52:56,908 --> 00:52:59,500
our code improving architecture 
and proving testing, like things

1151
00:52:59,500 --> 00:53:02,400
that don't have necessarily 
tangible deliverable for the 

1152
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:04,200
other teams in the company. 
They don't have a design 

1153
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:05,600
deliverable. 
They don't have a product to 

1154
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,400
Liberal judges purely, internal.
We try to put around 20% of our 

1155
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:11,300
efforts here. 
And again, it's a free 

1156
00:53:11,300 --> 00:53:13,800
allocation as I'm sure any 
listener can imagine. 

1157
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:16,400
We have some code bases, which 
are more modern than others. 

1158
00:53:16,500 --> 00:53:18,100
Some need more attention than 
others. 

1159
00:53:18,400 --> 00:53:21,600
But still, we tried to keep this
roughly consistent and then just

1160
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:24,900
challenged the principles and be
mindful of any changes we need 

1161
00:53:24,900 --> 00:53:27,500
to do. 
So if a team lead is looking at 

1162
00:53:27,500 --> 00:53:29,700
your code base and thinking 
we've been building this code 

1163
00:53:29,700 --> 00:53:32,100
base for 13 years. 
And by the way, this is actually

1164
00:53:32,100 --> 00:53:35,300
true for some of our code bases.
So we have 13 year-old called 

1165
00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:37,700
bases that were never Rewritten 
from the ground up. 

1166
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:40,400
They have been continuously 
improved and sometimes twenty 

1167
00:53:40,400 --> 00:53:43,300
percent is not enough to keep up
with modernization and making 

1168
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:46,200
sure things are well structured 
this ties back to the function 

1169
00:53:46,200 --> 00:53:49,200
of the team lead at doest which 
is posed to flag this and say, 

1170
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,600
hey, we're not going in a good 
direction. 

1171
00:53:51,600 --> 00:53:54,000
We need more people here and 
then we make just a small 

1172
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,500
adjustment but we changed that 
pre allocation. 

1173
00:53:56,500 --> 00:53:59,000
We're not discussing this week. 
We need more next week. 

1174
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:01,000
We need less. 
And then the week after we need 

1175
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,300
more again. 
We try to avoid this as much as 

1176
00:54:03,300 --> 00:54:06,000
possible. 
Thanks for the tour explanation.

1177
00:54:06,100 --> 00:54:07,800
So just a little bit curious, as
well. 

1178
00:54:07,800 --> 00:54:11,600
How does the do is architecture?
Look like, do you have 

1179
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,200
microservices where you have 
each functional team, having 

1180
00:54:14,200 --> 00:54:17,200
their own architecture and 
things to manage, or do you have

1181
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:19,200
a monolith Maybe? 
Share a little bit on that 

1182
00:54:19,200 --> 00:54:21,800
front, if you can. 
Yeah, so generally speaking, we 

1183
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:23,900
have a monolith would call it 
internally. 

1184
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:28,800
The Majestic monolith inspired 
by dhh posts about base camp, 

1185
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,300
but we do have a few services to
be honest. 

1186
00:54:31,300 --> 00:54:34,000
Like there are some things which
are very opportunistic and also 

1187
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:36,400
because we have to do is stand 
twist some things. 

1188
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:38,800
Really make sense in isolation. 
An example. 

1189
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,100
I like to use is the thumbnail 
service we use. 

1190
00:54:41,100 --> 00:54:44,000
So both of our products have a 
sort of comments in both of 

1191
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:45,700
them. 
You can paste links in both of 

1192
00:54:45,700 --> 00:54:47,000
them. 
We want to have a preview of 

1193
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:50,200
things and take some Um Nails 
basically speaking and these 

1194
00:54:50,200 --> 00:54:52,300
things live very well in 
isolation. 

1195
00:54:52,300 --> 00:54:54,600
There are a few opportunistic 
Services we have. 

1196
00:54:54,600 --> 00:54:56,900
But generally speaking. 
We have a majestic monolith 

1197
00:54:56,900 --> 00:54:59,400
everywhere, and I also think 
this lens to our functional 

1198
00:54:59,400 --> 00:55:01,100
structure. 
We have a back-end team. 

1199
00:55:01,100 --> 00:55:02,900
For example, the backend team 
owns. 

1200
00:55:02,900 --> 00:55:05,600
The backend code bases, 1422 is 
14 twist. 

1201
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:08,600
So we really Embrace this 
monolith approach to 

1202
00:55:08,600 --> 00:55:11,600
development. 
I know we could spend the whole 

1203
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,900
day arguing about the pros and 
cons of monoliths versus 

1204
00:55:14,900 --> 00:55:17,500
microservices. 
I really think generally 

1205
00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:19,300
speaking. 
What's important is that you 

1206
00:55:19,308 --> 00:55:22,700
have buy-in from the team, both 
approaches at pros and cons. 

1207
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,400
If you approach them in a 
mindful way, with Mastery, tying

1208
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:28,700
back to the Corvallis. 
You can have a monolith and try 

1209
00:55:28,700 --> 00:55:31,400
to make it a really good long 
life just like you can have 

1210
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,100
microservices and make sure you 
have a really good architecture 

1211
00:55:34,100 --> 00:55:36,200
around that too. 
I think that's more important 

1212
00:55:36,200 --> 00:55:39,400
than any specific approach but 
we use monoliths for sure. 

1213
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,300
Yeah, suddenly. 
I don't see any problem with 

1214
00:55:42,300 --> 00:55:44,200
monolith as well. 
But as, you know, we all like 

1215
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,000
this kind of a debate sometimes 
in the engineering microswitch, 

1216
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,300
service business model. 
It. 

1217
00:55:48,300 --> 00:55:51,900
So maybe for people who wants to
learn more about this remote 

1218
00:55:51,900 --> 00:55:54,600
booking culture, maybe some 
engineering best practices for 

1219
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:56,800
remote work. 
Is there any resources that is 

1220
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,700
publicly available that people 
can look at yes or no? 

1221
00:55:59,800 --> 00:56:02,300
Because I think you asked two 
questions. 

1222
00:56:02,300 --> 00:56:04,900
So we write a lot about remote 
work. 

1223
00:56:04,900 --> 00:56:07,800
In our blog, I think do is plug 
is amazing. 

1224
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,800
They are contributions from all 
across the company from 

1225
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,100
engineering to marketing to 
contents. 

1226
00:56:13,100 --> 00:56:16,600
There's really I think something
for everyone and we obviously 

1227
00:56:16,600 --> 00:56:18,000
talked a lot about The Way We 
Were. 

1228
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,100
And the way we see work for 
anything related with remote, 

1229
00:56:21,100 --> 00:56:23,400
work asynchronous, 
communication, or if any of the 

1230
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,600
core values that I mentioned in 
the podcast, resonated with 

1231
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:29,100
people, there's probably 
something about this in the 

1232
00:56:29,100 --> 00:56:31,700
blog. 
So highly recommend it as for 

1233
00:56:31,700 --> 00:56:35,000
the technical side of things and
fortunately, we don't do as good

1234
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,200
of a job. 
We have a technical blog in the 

1235
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,400
pipeline, but I don't have any 
ETA for this, but I hope in the 

1236
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:42,500
future where more transparent 
about the way. 

1237
00:56:42,500 --> 00:56:45,400
We approach work on a technical 
basis to a lot of. 

1238
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:48,100
Do Easter's have Twitter, a lot 
of doing stirs tweet about I 

1239
00:56:48,107 --> 00:56:50,400
work. 
So that's also an alternative to

1240
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:54,000
find more content about how we 
tackle the technical challenges.

1241
00:56:54,300 --> 00:56:56,300
So, Gonzalo is been a pleasure 
talking to you. 

1242
00:56:56,300 --> 00:56:58,500
My last question. 
My final question, as usually, 

1243
00:56:58,500 --> 00:57:00,100
it's about three technical 
leadership. 

1244
00:57:00,100 --> 00:57:02,300
Wisdom. 
Do you have the wisdom for you 

1245
00:57:02,300 --> 00:57:04,700
to share with all of us? 
I made some notes about this 

1246
00:57:04,700 --> 00:57:07,000
before the interview because I 
knew this one was coming. 

1247
00:57:07,100 --> 00:57:11,100
My first advice would be to stay
Hands On by saying hands. 

1248
00:57:11,100 --> 00:57:14,600
On doesn't mean you need to be 
deep down in the weeds doing 

1249
00:57:14,600 --> 00:57:17,800
work. 8 hours a day management, 
should not be a side job. 

1250
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:20,500
Leading a team. 
You should focus on leading 19, 

1251
00:57:20,500 --> 00:57:23,900
but staying Hands-On means. 
First of all, it's hard to say 

1252
00:57:23,900 --> 00:57:26,700
this, but you can provide a 
better service to your team 

1253
00:57:26,800 --> 00:57:30,000
because you can unblock them in 
certain types of work. 

1254
00:57:30,000 --> 00:57:32,900
You can help, try to work when 
the workload increases you can 

1255
00:57:32,900 --> 00:57:36,000
support them on a technical 
level 2 and also you can use 

1256
00:57:36,000 --> 00:57:38,300
that knowledge, use that 
intuition that comes from 

1257
00:57:38,300 --> 00:57:41,500
staying Hands-On to guide 
discussions and ask questions. 

1258
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:43,900
I think a lot of the work of a 
leader is just asking the right 

1259
00:57:43,900 --> 00:57:46,600
questions at the right time and 
if you have that technical 

1260
00:57:46,600 --> 00:57:49,900
background, it's really Apfel 
and, of course, since you're not

1261
00:57:49,900 --> 00:57:53,100
programming, many hours a day 
day in day out, you can even 

1262
00:57:53,100 --> 00:57:56,600
focus a bit more on R&D. 
For example, to stay sharp and 

1263
00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:59,400
make sure you have a great 
technical intuition. 

1264
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:02,800
So I think that would be my 
first advice to not abandon the 

1265
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,700
technical side of things. 
I really believe, it's a very 

1266
00:58:05,700 --> 00:58:07,900
useful tool in the tool belt. 
If you have it. 

1267
00:58:08,100 --> 00:58:11,800
My second tip is about actually 
something we touched on a little

1268
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,800
bit earlier around the monoliths
in the microservices. 

1269
00:58:15,100 --> 00:58:18,300
I really think that most people 
in our field are Very 

1270
00:58:18,300 --> 00:58:20,100
opinionated and that's a good 
thing. 

1271
00:58:20,300 --> 00:58:24,000
But having a vision in many 
instances is better than the 

1272
00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:26,300
vision itself. 
So I would say if you have a 

1273
00:58:26,300 --> 00:58:29,200
team, that's misaligned, like 
some people want to do them on 

1274
00:58:29,200 --> 00:58:30,400
Ali. 
Some people want to do 

1275
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:34,000
microservices that is honestly 
the worst situation you can be 

1276
00:58:34,000 --> 00:58:37,300
in because this lack of 
alignment will lead to friction.

1277
00:58:37,300 --> 00:58:38,900
It will lead to low hanging 
fruit. 

1278
00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:41,100
It will lead to honestly low 
quality work. 

1279
00:58:41,200 --> 00:58:43,600
You will have high quality work.
That's very disconnected from 

1280
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:45,900
each other. 
So I think as a team leader, 

1281
00:58:46,000 --> 00:58:47,900
sometimes you will need to set 
your opinion. 

1282
00:58:48,100 --> 00:58:51,300
Beside a little bit to find 
alignment within the team. 

1283
00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:55,300
Because if you can get the team 
to a line under one single idea 

1284
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,200
that when you're going to get 
the best outcome long-term and 

1285
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,200
that's what you should focus on.
And I think a lot of people in 

1286
00:59:01,200 --> 00:59:03,600
technical leadership, they get 
there because they have great 

1287
00:59:03,600 --> 00:59:05,100
ideas. 
You have great ideas. 

1288
00:59:05,100 --> 00:59:07,700
You have great execution to end 
up leading a team and then 

1289
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:10,600
suddenly there's this disconnect
because okay, but now you 

1290
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:13,700
actually need to put those ideas
a little bit aside to hear your 

1291
00:59:13,700 --> 00:59:15,500
team. 
See what they're telling you and

1292
00:59:15,500 --> 00:59:18,000
finding that alignment. 
This can be tricky, but it's 

1293
00:59:18,100 --> 00:59:20,500
Really good tool to find 
long-term success. 

1294
00:59:20,600 --> 00:59:24,000
Having a vision is better than 
whatever specific Vision you're 

1295
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,200
looking for. 
And the last one is also 

1296
00:59:26,200 --> 00:59:29,000
something we, I think covers 
across the whole interview. 

1297
00:59:29,000 --> 00:59:31,100
I'm a huge believer in core 
values. 

1298
00:59:31,100 --> 00:59:34,200
And I talked about DUIs core 
values, the five ones, but I 

1299
00:59:34,207 --> 00:59:38,000
also think engineering should 
have core values because here's 

1300
00:59:38,000 --> 00:59:39,600
the thing we can't do 
everything. 

1301
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,700
We want with the amount of 
attention. 

1302
00:59:41,700 --> 00:59:44,200
We want to put into things. 
We are going to have to make 

1303
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,200
trade-offs and we're constantly 
making trade-offs having core 

1304
00:59:47,200 --> 00:59:49,600
values. 
As a team, even as a technical 

1305
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,400
team defining, these core values
can be hugely important for you,

1306
00:59:53,400 --> 00:59:56,200
to make sure you're making the 
right trade-offs. 

1307
00:59:56,300 --> 01:00:00,500
I think if we rely on our 
implicit ideas to make 

1308
01:00:00,500 --> 01:00:03,300
trade-offs, they will be good. 
But as you scale the team, they 

1309
01:00:03,300 --> 01:00:05,300
will disconnect some person will
be. 

1310
01:00:05,300 --> 01:00:07,600
For example, they will value 
performance a lot. 

1311
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,200
Their code will be super 
efficient, that ux will be 

1312
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:12,400
amazing. 
The whole superhuman under 50 

1313
01:00:12,400 --> 01:00:14,400
millisecond thing. 
You're going to have great work 

1314
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:16,800
coming from that person. 
Maybe you have another person 

1315
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,900
who is super cute. 
Non scalable architecture, so 

1316
01:00:19,900 --> 01:00:22,100
they will spend a lot of time 
designing, the systems, from a 

1317
01:00:22,107 --> 01:00:25,100
technical standpoint to be 
extendable maintainable. 

1318
01:00:25,200 --> 01:00:29,700
Not necessarily have user-facing
traits, but be very well thought

1319
01:00:29,700 --> 01:00:32,500
out and put out and these 
things, they don't compete, but 

1320
01:00:32,500 --> 01:00:35,200
in some instances, you won't be 
able to do something that's 

1321
01:00:35,200 --> 01:00:37,100
highly organized and 
maintainable. 

1322
01:00:37,100 --> 01:00:40,100
That's highly performance. 
That's really well tested. 

1323
01:00:40,100 --> 01:00:41,800
And that also meets the 
deadline. 

1324
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:44,700
So, defining these core values. 
And again, this is something you

1325
01:00:44,700 --> 01:00:47,200
should be doing with your team. 
Let's pick some things and 

1326
01:00:47,200 --> 01:00:50,600
things we can remember. 
Or by heart so 456 not more and 

1327
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,900
then use those things to make 
the right trade-offs to define 

1328
01:00:53,900 --> 01:00:57,200
the identity of your team and to
defining how you as a team 

1329
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,000
approach work because when 
people are aligned, and they're 

1330
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,300
seeing things in a similar way 
and they're approaching 

1331
01:01:02,300 --> 01:01:04,700
trade-offs in a consistent way. 
You're going to get a lot of 

1332
01:01:04,700 --> 01:01:07,600
compounding benefits. 
Like for example, pick 

1333
01:01:07,700 --> 01:01:09,700
architecture. 
If you really want to build 

1334
01:01:09,700 --> 01:01:11,600
something, for the next five 
decades. 

1335
01:01:11,700 --> 01:01:14,500
Let's go really high here and 
you pick maintainability as a 

1336
01:01:14,508 --> 01:01:16,500
core value. 
Something you always prioritize 

1337
01:01:16,500 --> 01:01:19,000
if everybody's doing this, 
You're going to gain a lot 

1338
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:20,500
because there will be no Loose 
Ends. 

1339
01:01:20,500 --> 01:01:23,300
If performance is a very 
important characteristic of your

1340
01:01:23,300 --> 01:01:25,000
product, like it is for 
superhuman. 

1341
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:28,000
And you have everybody 
ruthlessly optimizing, the code 

1342
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:30,500
that they rights, you're going 
to get again, compounding 

1343
01:01:30,500 --> 01:01:33,200
benefits because there is no 
low-hanging fruits and you're 

1344
01:01:33,200 --> 01:01:36,300
always building on top of other 
people's excellent work in this 

1345
01:01:36,300 --> 01:01:38,300
regard. 
So, yeah, I guess in the end 

1346
01:01:38,400 --> 01:01:41,900
defining what success looks like
on the high level which usually 

1347
01:01:41,900 --> 01:01:44,800
can translate to Corvallis. 
This would be my third tip. 

1348
01:01:45,100 --> 01:01:46,900
I really really liked all your 
wisdom. 

1349
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,600
I think it's really fun. 
Thoughtful, for you to mention 

1350
01:01:49,600 --> 01:01:50,900
that and share with the audience
here. 

1351
01:01:50,900 --> 01:01:53,500
Thank you so much for spending 
your time here, sharing your 

1352
01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:55,200
best practices about remote 
work. 

1353
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,300
One thing that I learned 
personally, because I come from 

1354
01:01:57,300 --> 01:01:59,600
traditional background, as I 
mentioned, in the beginning. 

1355
01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:02,200
So having to know all this, I 
think is also a good thing, 

1356
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,400
especially even if you can't 
work in a remote work still. 

1357
01:02:05,400 --> 01:02:07,800
And within this working from 
home, there are aspects that we 

1358
01:02:07,800 --> 01:02:09,900
can take as well for all 
benefits. 

1359
01:02:10,000 --> 01:02:11,100
Things. 
Like, for example, pre 

1360
01:02:11,100 --> 01:02:12,600
allocation. 
I think it's also one thing that

1361
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:14,900
I like because you don't 
actually need to always come 

1362
01:02:14,900 --> 01:02:17,400
with a immediate response from 
your colleagues so pretty. 

1363
01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,200
I look at things. 
Other things that you can do at 

1364
01:02:19,200 --> 01:02:21,500
the site while waiting for the 
response, I think it's really 

1365
01:02:21,500 --> 01:02:23,400
good and some of other things. 
So, Gonzalo. 

1366
01:02:23,400 --> 01:02:26,700
Is there any other place for 
people to maybe find you online 

1367
01:02:26,700 --> 01:02:28,500
or interact with you if they 
want to know more? 

1368
01:02:28,900 --> 01:02:30,600
Yeah. 
I'm not really great at social 

1369
01:02:30,600 --> 01:02:33,000
media, but I do use Twitter. 
So if people want to connect 

1370
01:02:33,000 --> 01:02:36,300
with me, see what I'm thinking, 
I'm not Super Active, but I am 

1371
01:02:36,300 --> 01:02:38,000
active on Twitter and we'll 
share. 

1372
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,100
Wisdom will try to Sure wisdom 
every now and then. 

1373
01:02:41,300 --> 01:02:42,900
Alright, so thank you so much. 
You can sell. 

1374
01:02:42,900 --> 01:02:44,900
Oh, I hope to see you again in 
future episodes. 

1375
01:02:45,300 --> 01:02:46,700
I had a great time. 
Thank you, honey. 

1376
01:02:49,300 --> 01:02:52,700
Thank you for listening to this 
episode and for staying right 

1377
01:02:52,700 --> 01:02:55,500
till the end. 
If you highly enjoyed, please 

1378
01:02:55,500 --> 01:02:58,300
share it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

1379
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:01,100
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

1380
01:03:01,300 --> 01:03:04,200
And if you're new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

1381
01:03:04,200 --> 01:03:07,100
and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

1382
01:03:07,200 --> 01:03:10,900
It really, really helps me a lot
in order to grow these podcasts 

1383
01:03:10,900 --> 01:03:13,500
better. 
You can also find the full show 

1384
01:03:13,500 --> 01:03:17,200
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page, at Tech Legion

1385
01:03:17,200 --> 01:03:21,000
of the death website. 
The full transcript, interesting

1386
01:03:21,000 --> 01:03:24,200
quotes and links to the 
resources and mentions from the 

1387
01:03:24,200 --> 01:03:26,900
conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

1388
01:03:26,900 --> 01:03:29,700
subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on package, you know, the 

1389
01:03:29,700 --> 01:03:32,800
deaf to get notified for any 
future episodes. 

1390
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,900
Stay tuned for the next 
technique Journal episode. 

1391
01:03:35,900 --> 01:03:37,600
And until then. 
Goodbye.