1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,900 Come on, it's not a process. It's not a framework. 2 00:00:04,100 --> 00:00:07,600 It's not a methodology. It's nothing of those things. 3 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:12,600 Kanban is a working method. What I mean is that method is 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,400 something that you use in combination with other things. 5 00:00:16,700 --> 00:00:21,500 So come on, can be attached to any framework or any process 6 00:00:21,500 --> 00:00:25,400 that you already use a different way to say that is that combines 7 00:00:25,400 --> 00:00:28,900 the flow strategy. So it's a strategy that helps 8 00:00:28,900 --> 00:00:32,000 you to pop too much. As the flow of value, through 9 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:35,200 your value streams from ideation to customer. 10 00:00:35,500 --> 00:00:42,100 So that's what combine is. Hey everyone. 11 00:00:42,700 --> 00:00:44,600 My name is Henry Surya. We reward. 12 00:00:46,500 --> 00:00:48,700 And you're listening to the tekhelet journal. 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,100 The show will be bringing you the greatest technical leaders 14 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:56,000 practitioners and thought leaders in the industry to 15 00:00:56,000 --> 00:01:00,100 discuss about their Journey ideas and practices that we all 16 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:03,700 can learn and apply to build a highly performing technical team 17 00:01:04,099 --> 00:01:06,600 and to make an impact in your personal work. 18 00:01:07,300 --> 00:01:16,000 So let's dive into our Journal. Hello to all my listeners out 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:19,100 there, welcome back to another episode of the tekhelet journal 20 00:01:19,100 --> 00:01:21,400 podcast. I am your host Henry Surya 21 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:24,300 rawat, and it's great to be back here again with another 22 00:01:24,300 --> 00:01:26,400 conversation with my amazing guest. 23 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,900 Thank you for spending your time with me today, listening to this 24 00:01:29,900 --> 00:01:32,600 episode. If you haven't, please subscribe 25 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,600 to technique journal on your favorite podcast apps and also 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,700 follow our social media channels on LinkedIn, Twitter and 27 00:01:38,700 --> 00:01:40,900 Instagram. You can also make some 28 00:01:40,900 --> 00:01:43,500 contribution to the show and support the creation of this 29 00:01:43,500 --> 00:01:45,800 podcast by subscribing, as a patron. 30 00:01:46,000 --> 00:01:50,500 At TAG Legion o.f / Patron, and help me to continue producing, 31 00:01:50,500 --> 00:01:54,000 great content every week for today's episode. 32 00:01:54,100 --> 00:01:56,700 I'm happy to share my conversation with dimity. 33 00:01:56,700 --> 00:02:01,000 Caravan of the Vita is a little thinker, a kanban practitioner, 34 00:02:01,100 --> 00:02:03,600 and the CEO, and co-founder of cannabinoids. 35 00:02:04,100 --> 00:02:07,900 Many of us who work in an Asia, or lean methodology fashion must 36 00:02:07,900 --> 00:02:12,000 have heard about carbon. Fact, most of us may see daily 37 00:02:12,100 --> 00:02:15,400 in the form of a common board such as during daily, stand-up 38 00:02:15,700 --> 00:02:18,800 managing, or tasks, and to Dos, or a pipeline of work. 39 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:21,500 And most of the project or task management tools. 40 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:24,300 These days must have support for kanban board. 41 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,600 Such is the popularity of kanban in this era of knowledge work 42 00:02:28,700 --> 00:02:33,200 and high demand for agility. However, implementing kanban is 43 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:35,400 not only about using a camber board. 44 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,600 They are important principles and practices underlying 45 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,400 carbon-based. Based on its original invention, 46 00:02:41,400 --> 00:02:45,800 in the Toyota production system. In this episode dimity, shared, 47 00:02:45,800 --> 00:02:49,300 his own story on how he first got fascinated by the Simplicity 48 00:02:49,300 --> 00:02:53,000 and the effectiveness of carbon which then led him to start his 49 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,800 own company companies, which is an online conversion tools for 50 00:02:56,800 --> 00:03:00,800 lean and agile project management dimity also shared in 51 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,200 depth, the concept of combined and why combined has become one 52 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:06,500 of the most popular lean practices today. 53 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:09,600 He then explained deeper about combine principles. 54 00:03:09,900 --> 00:03:13,000 The core practices and some of the anti patterns that he has 55 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:16,200 seen throughout his vast experience, working with lots of 56 00:03:16,208 --> 00:03:18,500 organizations implementing combin. 57 00:03:19,300 --> 00:03:22,500 He also give a few tips on how we can improve our combined 58 00:03:22,500 --> 00:03:26,100 practices, including how to deal with external dependencies. 59 00:03:27,100 --> 00:03:30,600 I enjoy learning deeper about combined with Damita and I'm 60 00:03:30,600 --> 00:03:33,400 sure that you can learn a few things or two about combine from 61 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,900 this episode. Consider helping the show by 62 00:03:35,900 --> 00:03:39,500 leaving it a rating review or comment on your podcast app. 63 00:03:39,700 --> 00:03:43,300 Or leave us some comments on our social media channels, those 64 00:03:43,300 --> 00:03:46,300 reviews and comments are one of the best ways to help me get 65 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:50,100 these podcasts to reach more listeners and hopefully they can 66 00:03:50,100 --> 00:03:53,100 also benefit from all the contents in this podcast. 67 00:03:53,500 --> 00:03:56,400 So let's get this episode started right after our sponsor 68 00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:58,900 message. Are you looking for a new cool 69 00:03:58,900 --> 00:04:00,500 swag. Technology, you know. 70 00:04:00,500 --> 00:04:03,700 Now offers you some swags that you can purchase online. 71 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:07,600 These racks are printed on demand based on your preference 72 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:09,500 and will be delivered safely to you. 73 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,100 All over the world. We're shipping is available. 74 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:15,200 Check out all the cool strikes available by visiting, 75 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,500 technology node death, / shop. And don't forget to break 76 00:04:18,500 --> 00:04:20,800 yourself. Once you receive any of those 77 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:25,800 threats, everyone. Welcome back to another new show 78 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:27,300 of the Tecla Journal. Today. 79 00:04:27,300 --> 00:04:30,900 I have with me a special guest. His name is Damita Caravan of 80 00:04:31,100 --> 00:04:34,700 Demeter is the founder of a company called cannabinoids, as 81 00:04:34,700 --> 00:04:36,200 you can tell from the name itself. 82 00:04:36,300 --> 00:04:39,600 It is focused on helping the people to implement combine. 83 00:04:39,700 --> 00:04:42,800 Early, so we'll hear a lot more about what can be nice is all 84 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:46,300 about and also in general about kanban system because it's been 85 00:04:46,300 --> 00:04:49,900 popular since the popularity of the lean methodology, a gel 86 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:51,300 methodology, and things like that. 87 00:04:51,300 --> 00:04:54,700 So I'm sure many people now have implemented, a kanban in one way 88 00:04:54,700 --> 00:04:56,900 or the other. But let's hear from dimity for 89 00:04:56,900 --> 00:04:59,900 the how to actually Implement combined even more properly. 90 00:05:00,100 --> 00:05:02,000 So, welcome to the show. Dimmick are looking forward to 91 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:04,600 have this conversation with you. Hi Henry. 92 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:06,300 Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure. 93 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,100 So, first of all, I'm the meter, maybe, if you can introduce 94 00:05:09,100 --> 00:05:11,300 yourself. Bring us more about your story 95 00:05:11,300 --> 00:05:13,400 or Korea, any highlights or turning points? 96 00:05:14,100 --> 00:05:17,100 Sure my career started in engineering. 97 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:19,100 I've worked for software companies. 98 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,700 Different ones. I've worked for Johnson Controls 99 00:05:22,700 --> 00:05:25,700 where we were working on embedded software for the 100 00:05:25,700 --> 00:05:29,400 automotive industry. Then I switched to sap I think 101 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:32,200 is the biggest European software company for sure. 102 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,900 The biggest German one, then I moved to software AG which is 103 00:05:35,900 --> 00:05:39,600 another company in Germany. It's also in the BPM, bro. 104 00:05:39,700 --> 00:05:42,000 OST management, it was back, then. 105 00:05:42,100 --> 00:05:44,900 It's, it's focusing the different things now and I move 106 00:05:44,900 --> 00:05:49,200 to management there and I got to be elected to be one of the 107 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:53,200 people on the centralized rosen's team that was 108 00:05:53,200 --> 00:05:56,400 responsible for transitioning. The company from waterfall 109 00:05:56,500 --> 00:05:59,700 processes to more agile style delivery. 110 00:05:59,700 --> 00:06:03,000 I should say, it was a bit of a, scroll Meg who's a bit of 111 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,100 kanban. It was the mixture different 112 00:06:05,100 --> 00:06:07,900 things, Ci City. And so on, so forth this, the 113 00:06:07,900 --> 00:06:12,200 introduction to combine all. Most 11 years ago was so changed 114 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:16,000 my life, basically, because I was really fascinated by the 115 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,300 Simplicity and the effectiveness of kanban something that I 116 00:06:19,300 --> 00:06:23,100 hadn't seen before. I was certified scrum Master 117 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:26,300 back. Then, I am PMI folk, but 118 00:06:26,300 --> 00:06:30,400 combined struck me with its Visual and flow based 119 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,400 principles. That's how I started companies 120 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:38,200 with friends of mine because we realized that flow management is 121 00:06:38,300 --> 00:06:40,100 the thing. When we talk Talk about 122 00:06:40,100 --> 00:06:42,800 producing value. It's something that's the other 123 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:46,200 have discovered many years ago and have been perfecting ever 124 00:06:46,200 --> 00:06:49,500 since he. And we took those ideas to 125 00:06:49,500 --> 00:06:53,500 combine and went into the Knowledge Management, space tech 126 00:06:53,500 --> 00:06:57,000 companies, engineering design architecture, Finance all that. 127 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,300 Non-engineering in the factory sense, companies. 128 00:07:00,700 --> 00:07:04,000 It's been more than a decade. Now, convalesce is growing. 129 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,400 It's been a great ride so far. Wow, I didn't know that it has 130 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:09,600 been a decade since you started the company. 131 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:13,000 So when you started companies with your co-founder, what was 132 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,600 the story initially? What did you foresee? 133 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:17,700 Because 10 years ago. He was not popular. 134 00:07:17,700 --> 00:07:20,800 I believe people are still learning about a jar about 135 00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:21,600 combine. Right? 136 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,200 So what made you start the company, you know, excellent 137 00:07:25,200 --> 00:07:29,400 question and I love the story being on this process team that 138 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,100 talked about, we had this task given us by the CTO the company 139 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:38,700 to visualize the flow of features throughout the entire 140 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:41,200 R&D. Moment of the company, these 141 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:46,300 were around 1,000 people and we were responsible for half of 142 00:07:46,300 --> 00:07:50,900 that around 500 developers. As you can imagine 500 143 00:07:50,900 --> 00:07:54,700 developers across 10 plus products is something that it's 144 00:07:54,700 --> 00:07:59,000 not trivial to manage and we basically didn't know where the 145 00:07:59,000 --> 00:08:01,500 features were in the delivery process. 146 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:04,700 So we started experimenting with different ideas. 147 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,600 We had zero in the company back then and it was good on the TV. 148 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:11,800 Level. But as soon as we tried to 149 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,500 visualize the features on the next level, let's say features 150 00:08:15,500 --> 00:08:17,300 epics, whatever we want to call them. 151 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:22,700 It was really hard and we had spent months developing scripts 152 00:08:22,700 --> 00:08:26,400 and extracting data based files and whatnot just to be able to 153 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:30,600 prepare this report of what was happening in the organization. 154 00:08:30,900 --> 00:08:33,500 Finally, we managed to do so and what do you think? 155 00:08:33,500 --> 00:08:36,000 We discovered? We discover that we had. 156 00:08:36,100 --> 00:08:38,900 I don't recall the right numbers, but it was more than 157 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,799 Thousand features in Provence more than 1000 K. 158 00:08:42,799 --> 00:08:45,100 Can you imagine that? Just for the record? 159 00:08:45,100 --> 00:08:49,500 I think the company had released around 200 with its previous 160 00:08:49,500 --> 00:08:53,700 release, which took two years. So, we had five to ten years of 161 00:08:53,700 --> 00:08:56,700 working progress of things that have been started. 162 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,600 But we're not finished. This is when it clicked to me 163 00:08:59,700 --> 00:09:03,900 that if we only knew that this was happening, we would not 164 00:09:03,900 --> 00:09:06,500 allow it to help on these. Just not the tooling was not 165 00:09:06,500 --> 00:09:10,200 allowing us to see what was going on and that's how Actually 166 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:12,200 came up with the idea of carbonized. 167 00:09:12,500 --> 00:09:16,400 It is not only meant to help teams deliver their work, but 168 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,100 it's been designed from the ground up. 169 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:21,200 Just toward a network of interconnected work. 170 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,900 We see work as a network of services. 171 00:09:23,900 --> 00:09:26,200 It's pretty much the common way of seeing the work. 172 00:09:26,500 --> 00:09:30,400 So it's not just tasks. It's not just user stories. 173 00:09:30,700 --> 00:09:35,000 It's not just my team. It's everything interconnected. 174 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,800 And with cameras. It's very easy to scale your 175 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:41,400 implementation from one team to Holcomb and we see this 176 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,500 happening Everyday, People start with 15 people, 20 people, and 177 00:09:45,500 --> 00:09:49,100 then in six months, they grow to a thousand people where they can 178 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:51,400 ban eyes. Hence the name of the company, 179 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,400 all the work grows since in the company. 180 00:09:53,700 --> 00:09:56,300 This is actually the focal point. 181 00:09:56,300 --> 00:10:00,400 We saw that companies basically have no idea what's coming on as 182 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,200 soon as you go above the team space, basic mobile most. 183 00:10:04,900 --> 00:10:07,900 So we solve this problem with caramelized scaling your adjunct 184 00:10:07,900 --> 00:10:11,000 imitation, across the whole This is what we do. 185 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:13,000 In fact, like, in my work as well. 186 00:10:13,000 --> 00:10:16,000 Sometimes we struggle to actually do this zoom in zoom 187 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:17,800 out from the top priority at the high level. 188 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:20,100 Or even at the bottom. What are the tasks available? 189 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:22,500 And how do we map it back to the top? 190 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,400 So I think having these kind of system will definitely help. 191 00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:28,500 Speaking of which, for people who may not be familiar with 192 00:10:28,500 --> 00:10:30,300 kanban. Maybe you can give a little bit 193 00:10:30,300 --> 00:10:34,100 of intro or in-depth explanation about what can one is all about. 194 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:36,300 Sure. I would like to say, what? 195 00:10:36,300 --> 00:10:40,000 Come on is not first because a lot of people read something on 196 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,600 the Internet and it might not be the most reliable source, and 197 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,300 they might not realize. That con man is not what they 198 00:10:46,300 --> 00:10:48,700 think it is. So first of all, come on, it's 199 00:10:48,700 --> 00:10:52,000 not a process. It's not a framework. 200 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,700 It's not a methodology. It's nothing of those things. 201 00:10:55,700 --> 00:10:59,800 Kanban is a working method. There is a difference between 202 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:03,800 method and methodology. What I mean is that method is 203 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,600 something that you use in combination with other things. 204 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,600 So, come on, can be at 10. To any Prime work or any process 205 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,300 that you already use. It's not very common that you 206 00:11:16,300 --> 00:11:18,700 can use common with other four processes. 207 00:11:18,700 --> 00:11:21,500 If you want to. You can use combined with scrum 208 00:11:21,500 --> 00:11:23,900 if you want to. So it's not one or the other. 209 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:27,300 You can attach kanban to any process that you use. 210 00:11:27,300 --> 00:11:29,900 Listen, very important. A different way to say that is 211 00:11:29,900 --> 00:11:32,000 that combine Institute flow strategy. 212 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:36,200 So it's a strategy that helps you to optimize the flow of 213 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:39,500 value through your value streams from idea. 214 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,100 A Shinto customer, so that's what combat is. 215 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,600 And then we can talk about all the different practices and 216 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:49,600 principles. I'm happy to dig into that if 217 00:11:49,600 --> 00:11:52,800 you want to but pretty much. It's described in the kanban 218 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:54,900 guide. So if you Google common guide, 219 00:11:54,900 --> 00:11:57,600 you'll find all the necessary details that will get you 220 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,200 started on that as far as I'm concerned. 221 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:03,900 All you need to know is that common Bond says start with what 222 00:12:03,900 --> 00:12:08,300 you do know and then agree to pursue incremental improvements 223 00:12:08,700 --> 00:12:11,700 of course, through The practices that combined talks about, but 224 00:12:11,700 --> 00:12:15,900 this is the fundamental stuff. Don't just speak Bank change. 225 00:12:15,900 --> 00:12:19,200 Everything start with what you do now and using the scientific 226 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,400 approach, improve your delivery times and everything. 227 00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:25,400 That's to me the essential part. So, if I understand it 228 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,500 correctly, write the history of kanban itself. 229 00:12:27,500 --> 00:12:30,300 May be started from the Toyota production system. 230 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:33,500 So going from there, actually the lean methodology becomes 231 00:12:33,500 --> 00:12:36,300 more popular and also agile methodology soon. 232 00:12:36,300 --> 00:12:39,000 After that, maybe a little bit of History here. 233 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,200 How does It can become so popular. 234 00:12:41,500 --> 00:12:44,200 Like it started from a Toyota manufacturing system. 235 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,600 But then there becomes popular where all the engineering team 236 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,200 and all the maybe non-indigent even use it. 237 00:12:50,800 --> 00:12:54,000 That's a great question because you need to make differentiation 238 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,300 between the factory shop floor, kanban and the knowledge work. 239 00:12:58,300 --> 00:13:00,700 Kanban. It's very important on the other 240 00:13:00,700 --> 00:13:04,000 word, the others and still are the founders of compound for 241 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:06,600 short form. A crutch in they use it for a 242 00:13:06,600 --> 00:13:09,400 pull based replenishment of resources and materials. 243 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,900 So it's typically colored box that is filled with the certain 244 00:13:13,900 --> 00:13:17,400 number of Parts. When the worker needs those 245 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:21,600 parts, the worker takes that box, empties the content and 246 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:25,000 puts it backwards. When they put it backwards, the 247 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:28,600 color of the box is different. And that's how people know it's 248 00:13:28,700 --> 00:13:30,500 empty and they need to refill. It. 249 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:32,800 This is the most popular application of common in the 250 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,400 shop for it's used in healthcare. 251 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:39,300 And basically everywhere this is what allows just in time. 252 00:13:39,500 --> 00:13:43,600 Population of materials resources and then what happened 253 00:13:43,700 --> 00:13:46,000 with the blue book of David J Anderson. 254 00:13:46,200 --> 00:13:49,600 Is that those ideas? And I think they experimented 255 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:52,300 with combined for the first time at Corpus. 256 00:13:52,500 --> 00:13:54,700 It's a US company. I think it was bought by 257 00:13:54,700 --> 00:13:57,500 Microsoft later on. I'm not sure many people at 258 00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:00,800 Corbett's were experimenting with kanban and then they 259 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:04,800 describe the findings in this book and it was a translation of 260 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:09,400 this idea of just in time development or just in time. 261 00:14:09,500 --> 00:14:13,100 Most men just intend scheduling into the knowledge work context, 262 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:17,200 it became so popular because nobody has any freaking idea 263 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:19,600 what is going on in the company. It's ridiculous. 264 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:24,100 I talk to clients every day to potential client and they say we 265 00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:28,300 only want to know what's going on and then we will click about 266 00:14:28,300 --> 00:14:31,900 improving stuff happen and I get it if you have 100 and work 267 00:14:31,900 --> 00:14:34,400 thousand people, it's just difficult to see what's going 268 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:36,500 on. And that's why combined became 269 00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:39,400 so popular in the knowledge work, the main because it is 270 00:14:39,500 --> 00:14:43,300 Allows you to see it creates, unmatched transparency. 271 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:45,800 That's what hooked me to come down as well, because I was a 272 00:14:45,808 --> 00:14:49,400 manager, and I want to see what's going on with my teams. 273 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:51,900 And that's probably 90% of the story. 274 00:14:52,100 --> 00:14:53,800 It's visualization in transparency. 275 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:56,800 So you measure about visualization, transparency flow 276 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:58,300 and all that. Do you think there are some 277 00:14:58,300 --> 00:15:01,700 principles that actually combined advise you to have in 278 00:15:01,700 --> 00:15:03,000 the system? Yeah. 279 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,600 Sure. First of all combined system can 280 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:10,000 qualify to be a kanban system if it has certain Sticks. 281 00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:13,200 Having the usual board with sticky notes on. 282 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,700 It is not enough. It's just a very basic form of 283 00:15:16,700 --> 00:15:20,100 word, but it's not a kanban system, kanban system must be a 284 00:15:20,100 --> 00:15:23,200 pull system and that is achieved through the application of 285 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:27,600 working progress limits and pull system means that you allow new 286 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:32,200 content into the system as soon as content has exited the 287 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,600 system. If we talk about user stories or 288 00:15:34,600 --> 00:15:38,600 features, if you have limit of 10 features in progress, you can 289 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,700 start up. Up to ten features, but you 290 00:15:41,700 --> 00:15:44,900 cannot start the 11th one. You cannot achieve what we 291 00:15:44,908 --> 00:15:47,700 achieved back then with more than 1,000 and that's a good 292 00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:50,300 thing. So once we finish one of these 293 00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:53,100 10 features, we have nine in progress. 294 00:15:53,100 --> 00:15:57,000 We have room for one more then we pull the next one to 295 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:02,200 improves, not find called post a kanban board is a kanban board. 296 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,800 It fits allows such Behavior if people can take work in an 297 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,600 uncontrolled way and put it wherever they It's not a pull 298 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:11,400 system. And hence. 299 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,200 It's not like I'm most this is the most important thing in 300 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,800 there are also other things. Like what are the service level 301 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:19,100 expectation of this combined system. 302 00:16:19,300 --> 00:16:21,300 This is a little bit higher level. 303 00:16:21,300 --> 00:16:24,300 I should say. Most people are not there yet, 304 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:26,300 but it's a very good practice. You. 305 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:29,700 Take a look at the board. You somehow need to understand. 306 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,800 What is the expected delivery rates from this system, or from 307 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,200 this board? If you use combines or similar 308 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:40,400 system with reflected on the cards themselves, how long they 309 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:43,300 are expected to take. But if it's a physical board, 310 00:16:43,300 --> 00:16:46,900 you can just put a big note that the topping say, two days. 311 00:16:47,100 --> 00:16:50,500 We expect that whenever a work item is started. 312 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,000 It will take us up to two days. This is also very important. 313 00:16:54,100 --> 00:16:57,200 The last thing that is very common and people should take 314 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,600 into account, is that the policies on the board should be 315 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:04,700 very easy to understand. People should not remember what 316 00:17:04,700 --> 00:17:08,000 to do with the tickets on the for it should be explicitly 317 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,300 written somewhere. Do this. 318 00:17:10,300 --> 00:17:14,099 When that happens you pull this type of work you to this column 319 00:17:14,099 --> 00:17:16,500 when something happens and so on so forth. 320 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,599 So you mention about expectation of X. 321 00:17:19,599 --> 00:17:21,900 So, this is a related question to that, right? 322 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:26,400 Because as we all know the task given a 10 for all of us, it's 323 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,400 not equally measured. Some might take longer and more 324 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,000 complex. So in a combined system, is 325 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,800 there any prescription on how to break down tasks is one work 326 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,000 item in progress should be equivalent as the other work 327 00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:39,800 item in. Progress. 328 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:42,700 Because as you can imagine, if one does takes a lot more time, 329 00:17:42,700 --> 00:17:45,300 that means we are having that chunk of work being there 330 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:47,400 forever. In terms of work in progress. 331 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:50,700 Yep. If some question and Rick, it's 332 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:52,400 difficult topic. For many people. 333 00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:57,500 First of all, there is not any prescription, how you must to 334 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:01,300 there are good practices. One of the good practices is 335 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:04,000 definitely make them as small as possible. 336 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,000 I'm not speaking about submitted smooth work not even hours of 337 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,300 work. I would say. 338 00:18:09,500 --> 00:18:12,600 For a typical development team that use the story should take 339 00:18:12,700 --> 00:18:15,000 anywhere between one to three, four days. 340 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,900 That's what I would recommend. If it takes more than a week. 341 00:18:19,100 --> 00:18:20,300 Of course. It happens. 342 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:24,100 Sometimes happens, but let that be five to ten percent of the 343 00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:26,900 work Adams. Try to make them really as small 344 00:18:26,900 --> 00:18:29,500 as possible in. This is the advice we hear 345 00:18:29,500 --> 00:18:32,100 everywhere. I'm aware of that, and when you 346 00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:35,500 try to do it, it's a different story because slicing Works 347 00:18:35,500 --> 00:18:38,400 difficult to kill. So, what we have done at 348 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:42,600 carbonized is, That we assign size is 2 to the stories or 349 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:45,100 features whichever criminology use. 350 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,000 We typically work on features. We don't slice them into user 351 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:52,800 stories, but we really focus on them being as small as possible. 352 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:58,200 We have this T-shirt size as LM Excel and support. 353 00:18:58,300 --> 00:19:02,400 We have assigned to an expected duration to those sizes and then 354 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:07,200 the development team can accept an S feature any time, they can 355 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,500 accept an M feature any time. But Ishmael request comes to 356 00:19:11,500 --> 00:19:16,600 them onto son, l or an Excel in terms of size and complexity. 357 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,300 They will push back, like, hell. That's the expected behavior 358 00:19:20,300 --> 00:19:21,600 from that. Rdt. 359 00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:25,200 If the R&D team says, okay. How do the L in the Excel? 360 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:28,200 No problem. That's not the right Behavior. 361 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,300 We expect them to push back and go to product management, or 362 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,600 product ownership and say, hey guys, can we not break this 363 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:36,200 down? I mean, it's too big. 364 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,300 It's too complex. We must find a way to break this 365 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:42,100 down. And then through this exchange 366 00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:46,200 between product management and delivery and RD 90% of the time. 367 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:51,300 We will find a way to break down a feature, which is L or Excel 368 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,500 into something smaller. Most of the time, we will 369 00:19:54,500 --> 00:19:57,400 discover that. It was what the client actually 370 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,700 wanted. The rest was our own imagination 371 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,700 and that's okay. I mean, it's good to have your 372 00:20:02,700 --> 00:20:06,300 own imagination, but very often, it is easy to slip, it's easy to 373 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:09,900 decide to solve for small problem and then solve L've 374 00:20:09,900 --> 00:20:11,900 doesn't more problems with the same teacher. 375 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:15,600 It's what PM's do all the time. So you should build in your 376 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,600 process. Some sort of check or prevention 377 00:20:18,600 --> 00:20:21,800 mechanism from two large features entering the system. 378 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:22,800 What? Exactly? 379 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,100 I described for again, about all these right? 380 00:20:26,100 --> 00:20:28,900 I categorize that as practices. I did some research about 381 00:20:28,900 --> 00:20:30,000 combined. Actually. 382 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:33,400 There are some core practices that we have to follow in terms 383 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,700 of batting practice. Maybe we can go through one by 384 00:20:35,700 --> 00:20:37,300 one, right? The first one is actually to 385 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,400 visualize the workflow we mention about. 386 00:20:39,500 --> 00:20:42,700 Kanban board and making sure that people can see the rules 387 00:20:42,700 --> 00:20:45,600 how it works in this come board. So maybe, can you explain the 388 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:48,000 bit more? Why is important to visualize 389 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:51,100 the workflow? Yep, two main reasons. 390 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:55,200 The first reason is because if you can't see a thing, if you 391 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,700 don't know where work is, you can't manage it. 392 00:20:57,900 --> 00:21:01,000 And the second one is that. If you can't see it, you can't 393 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:03,400 improve it. Well, if you can see it, and if 394 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:05,300 you can't manage it, you can't improve it. 395 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:09,300 I should say very quickly. People will have a very simple 396 00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:15,000 Board that says, to do during done or to do doing waiting on 397 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,200 external and then done. That's fine is a start. 398 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,900 But if doing takes three months, how do you improve that? 399 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,800 I mean, you just say it people work faster? 400 00:21:25,100 --> 00:21:27,300 No, it doesn't work like that DVD. 401 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:32,200 Have your workflow refined to detail that necessary and at the 402 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:35,700 same time reasonable. You don't need to go too much 403 00:21:35,700 --> 00:21:38,600 into the details. Like a workflow with 50 states. 404 00:21:38,600 --> 00:21:40,000 Probably. Too much. 405 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:43,900 When I would always recommend having the steps in your process 406 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:48,600 where you discover new knowledge to be States in your workflow. 407 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:53,700 I would always recommend to have the waiting States on your board 408 00:21:53,700 --> 00:21:57,900 to be their own columns. So if you have let's say ready 409 00:21:57,900 --> 00:22:02,200 for development is a Q then you have development and you have 410 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,800 ready for testing which skill then you have testing, they have 411 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,700 greatly for final validation or sign up and we have sine of off 412 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,500 to these ready for columns are very important because you 413 00:22:13,500 --> 00:22:17,600 typically discover that they eat 60 to 70% of your time. 414 00:22:17,900 --> 00:22:20,900 That's the beauty of compound because when you see a column 415 00:22:20,900 --> 00:22:24,500 ready for testing, which is 2 meters high, it means that 416 00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:28,100 testing is a bottleneck or you produce too much for them and 417 00:22:28,100 --> 00:22:31,200 they just can't cope with load and then you can change that. 418 00:22:31,300 --> 00:22:35,400 You can hire more testers or you can ask the developers to help 419 00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,000 the testers or you can automate the test. 420 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:40,700 Whatever we can do. Anything that will solve the 421 00:22:40,700 --> 00:22:44,600 problem, but unless you have this workflow refined to some 422 00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:47,400 certain detail. We will simply not know what to 423 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,200 do. So that's why it's so important 424 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,300 to visualize the workflow hearing what you say about this 425 00:22:52,300 --> 00:22:54,800 test. Seeing a pile of cards winding 426 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:56,500 up. I think it's quite typical in 427 00:22:56,500 --> 00:22:58,400 quite a number of development teams. 428 00:22:58,500 --> 00:23:01,900 I would say, especially when the input ratio doesn't match 429 00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:05,100 support the in between stages. So, that's why we will see this 430 00:23:05,100 --> 00:23:07,600 piling up and bottlenecks in between our system. 431 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,300 So, I think that's a great overview. 432 00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,100 About workflow and how we should visualize it. 433 00:23:12,100 --> 00:23:14,800 And then the second practice is all about limiting work in 434 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,400 progress, in its share a little bit with us. 435 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:20,400 Also like why is it important to actually limit the work in 436 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,400 progress and how we should do it properly? 437 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:24,500 I should say. This is probably the most 438 00:23:24,500 --> 00:23:28,300 important thing if you want to do combin because it's what gets 439 00:23:28,300 --> 00:23:32,100 you the most benefit, it gives you benefits on three layers, 440 00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:35,800 the current players first on the individual layer, then on the 441 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,100 team layer and then on the whole company line, and I will tell 442 00:23:39,100 --> 00:23:41,100 you, Why? I think it's like this. 443 00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,400 First of all, if you use work-in-progress limits on a, 444 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:48,000 come on board, where you as a team member or I is to member 445 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,500 operate. If we have a limit on the work 446 00:23:50,500 --> 00:23:53,500 items. It allows me to concentrate on 447 00:23:53,500 --> 00:23:58,500 one or two maximum work items and get them done really well 448 00:23:58,500 --> 00:24:01,800 and really fast. We all know how annoying it is 449 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,000 to interrupt at all the time anyone that's going to develop 450 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:09,300 or knows how frustrating and how infuriating is to be. 451 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,000 Interrupted all the time. I mean I used to be a developer. 452 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,300 I'm in this state of brain flow as they call it. 453 00:24:16,500 --> 00:24:20,300 Everything is going smooth and creating class after class 454 00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:22,600 method after method. And then somebody Taps you on 455 00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:25,400 the shoulder and says, hey, do you have a second in either in 456 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,800 the middle of this complex algorithm and then somebody Taps 457 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,700 you on the shoulder and you're out of this concentration Zone. 458 00:24:32,100 --> 00:24:34,800 It takes you a lot of time to get back there. 459 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,300 There is research on the topic that it takes between 20 and 40 460 00:24:38,300 --> 00:24:41,300 minutes to get. Back to this state of Maximum 461 00:24:41,300 --> 00:24:44,300 concentration, is the interrupt you five times a day. 462 00:24:44,500 --> 00:24:47,200 It means that five hours of your day. 463 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,900 You cannot be concentrated. How do you get the work done? 464 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,600 And that's why a lot of people say, I need to stay home because 465 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:57,400 I have a lot of work. It's ridiculous. 466 00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,600 In order to be able to getting work done. 467 00:24:59,600 --> 00:25:02,200 You need stay at home because nobody will be interrupting, you 468 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,900 know, so this is on the individual level. 469 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:06,800 Come on. Helps you on the individual 470 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,200 level to have a healthier work life. 471 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:10,300 Why? Because you don't get 472 00:25:10,300 --> 00:25:13,000 frustrated, you don't get annoyed by constant 473 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,600 interruptions on the team level. It's basically the same thing, 474 00:25:16,900 --> 00:25:22,200 but combined Shields, the whole team from external influences. 475 00:25:22,500 --> 00:25:26,200 It's getting less popular these days but managers used to be 476 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,000 very pushy. So they throw something over the 477 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,500 fence to the team and say, I need this done by yesterday. 478 00:25:32,900 --> 00:25:35,900 And then some other manager does the same thing and a third 479 00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:37,300 major. That's the same thing in the 480 00:25:37,300 --> 00:25:40,600 team has to literally swamped with Work and they just don't 481 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600 know what to do. But when you have a kanban board 482 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,300 with working progress limits, you can show it to your managers 483 00:25:46,300 --> 00:25:49,600 and say, hey guys, we're happy to do whatever you want us to 484 00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:54,200 do, but we have 100 pieces already requested from us which 485 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,500 one of those shall be sacrifice. And then the conversation 486 00:25:57,500 --> 00:26:01,200 changes because they take informed decisions with kanban. 487 00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,500 They can take informed decisions. 488 00:26:03,700 --> 00:26:07,400 What is really important to go through the limited capacity 489 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:11,200 that this team has this? Makes the lives of the team's 490 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:16,100 much much easier on the company Levites again, the same idea, 491 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,200 but now a scale that across the different organizations within 492 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,800 the company Marketing sales are indeed. 493 00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:26,700 If you have a kanban board that visualizes, all the important 494 00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:29,700 initiatives in the company, and that's what we sell with 495 00:26:29,700 --> 00:26:32,600 companies. By the way, you as an executive 496 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,800 can easily see what strategic projects are going. 497 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,600 Okay, what projects are not going? 498 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,500 Okay. And you can coordinate easily 499 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:46,800 the different business Series in silos because sandals exist and 500 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,100 they will always exist. I don't believe that silos will 501 00:26:50,100 --> 00:26:52,700 ever disappear. They are needed for companies to 502 00:26:52,700 --> 00:26:56,500 function and combina helps you to communicate and synchronize 503 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:59,200 work across the different business areas, or the different 504 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:03,100 silos and prevent the company from being overburdened as a 505 00:27:03,100 --> 00:27:05,300 company. Because this is also something 506 00:27:05,300 --> 00:27:08,900 that's very common or company takes 20 or 30 projects at a 507 00:27:08,900 --> 00:27:10,500 time. I'm and they can get it done. 508 00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:12,500 So that's why I work in progress. 509 00:27:12,500 --> 00:27:15,200 Limit is so important on all three levels in the company, 510 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,000 definitely makes sense. One related question to that, 511 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,400 which is quite typical in many organizations as well. 512 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaking about Interruption overburden and all that. 513 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:25,600 Sometimes there are emergency situations. 514 00:27:25,900 --> 00:27:28,900 So when you have nicely plan, okay, we have this 10 work in 515 00:27:28,900 --> 00:27:31,200 progress. Now, every day they might be 516 00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:32,900 incidents, that might be emergency. 517 00:27:32,900 --> 00:27:35,800 There might be some managers ask for Urgent thing to be done. 518 00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,900 So, how do you manage all this in this limited work in 519 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:40,300 progress? Kind of system. 520 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,300 If you have such cases, where unplanned work is likely to be 521 00:27:44,300 --> 00:27:49,200 expedited combined recommends, having a special case, later on 522 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,900 the boards for that, which told expedite, the only limit the 523 00:27:52,900 --> 00:27:57,100 work-in-progress ofthis lead to one and this is the horizontal 524 00:27:57,100 --> 00:27:59,700 layers that span all the workflow stages. 525 00:27:59,900 --> 00:28:02,500 Are you limit this to one? And you say we only allow 526 00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:04,400 wanting to be expedited at a time? 527 00:28:04,600 --> 00:28:06,900 You need to really, really must be an extra day. 528 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,900 Somebody must be crying here. If this work is not being 529 00:28:10,900 --> 00:28:14,300 getting done, the rule is that? If you pick spit out everything 530 00:28:14,300 --> 00:28:17,800 then it's not expect any more. It's your regular operations. 531 00:28:18,100 --> 00:28:22,000 That's how we manage this in the combined space to be special and 532 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:26,000 specialized limbs, but with very strict working progress limits. 533 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,700 Apply to them. Right? 534 00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:30,400 Well, we know that the next core practice which is about managing 535 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:32,400 flow. I think this might be a little 536 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:34,300 bit abstract for a lot of people. 537 00:28:34,300 --> 00:28:36,200 What do you mean by managing flow? 538 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,200 Can you maybe give us some tips on how to actually properly? 539 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,400 Which the flow? Sure begin. 540 00:28:41,500 --> 00:28:44,100 A great practice. Because it gets you a lot of 541 00:28:44,100 --> 00:28:45,400 benefit. First. 542 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,600 Let me move back to the lien world and to your tunnel like 543 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:52,700 six years ago, six years ago. What they discovered is that 544 00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:58,600 it's better to produce cars with a steady flow of all, the parts 545 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:04,100 across old shop floor lines. With not that fast of a Tempo or 546 00:29:04,100 --> 00:29:09,100 at act as they call it versus constantly Expediting things. 547 00:29:09,300 --> 00:29:12,300 And then stopping and then Expediting things again and then 548 00:29:12,300 --> 00:29:16,400 stopping, I can make a parallel between scrum and kanban here 549 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,700 because scrum talks a lot about, let's plan of Sprint. 550 00:29:19,700 --> 00:29:22,200 Let's start the Sprint. Let's do this grunting, then 551 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,400 stop and then do it again. Come on says, just to continues. 552 00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,900 Deliberate, continuous Improvement through continuous 553 00:29:27,900 --> 00:29:29,900 delivery. So it's the same type of thing 554 00:29:29,900 --> 00:29:34,400 and the owner said, we want to know that all the parts are 555 00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,800 moving right now. It might not be very fast. 556 00:29:38,100 --> 00:29:41,200 But as long as they're in, Moving, and they're moving with 557 00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,500 the expected speed. This is great. 558 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,900 So that's what it means to enable them to improve flow. 559 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,000 Something. There's not stopping. 560 00:29:49,300 --> 00:29:51,500 So combined does two things about this. 561 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,700 First one is metrics like service low, expectations cycle 562 00:29:55,700 --> 00:29:59,200 time and Matrix lead to nine Matrix working for with metrics. 563 00:29:59,300 --> 00:30:02,100 All these metrics Beijing very important metric. 564 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,900 It is how long have the work items being in that state where 565 00:30:05,900 --> 00:30:08,700 they are right now, are they engaging in sight? 566 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,000 So these He's Matrix. They help you to make sure that 567 00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:16,300 work is not just sitting there and nobody's carrying about it. 568 00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:20,300 The second thing is blockers. Come on is employing the concept 569 00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:23,800 of blockers. So when something cannot proceed 570 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,900 through the workflow, you put a Blocker on it, which is the 571 00:30:26,900 --> 00:30:30,500 signal just like the andon cord in the factories filter that 572 00:30:30,500 --> 00:30:33,600 something is wrong and we need to take care of it. 573 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:37,300 And then the team is supposed to squirm on the blocker resolve. 574 00:30:37,300 --> 00:30:39,100 The blocker. So that this work I can't 575 00:30:39,300 --> 00:30:41,500 Continuous flowing through the workflow. 576 00:30:41,700 --> 00:30:44,300 So that's what we do. We inspect metrics. 577 00:30:44,300 --> 00:30:47,500 We use blockers and make sure that work items continuously 578 00:30:47,500 --> 00:30:50,200 flow through the woods. Definitely, makes sense. 579 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,300 So the next is about, actually making this process and 580 00:30:53,300 --> 00:30:55,100 policies. Explicit, right? 581 00:30:55,100 --> 00:30:58,300 Why does it have to be explicit? What do you mean by making the 582 00:30:58,300 --> 00:31:01,000 policy explicit? Do we have to write a guidelines 583 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,500 or rules in order to work in this kind of system? 584 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,800 Here is, that's really recommend mix. 585 00:31:05,900 --> 00:31:07,600 Something. I mentioned before, people 586 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,300 should not Wonder. What was I supposed to do here? 587 00:31:11,300 --> 00:31:13,600 Should I move it to here or two here? 588 00:31:13,900 --> 00:31:15,900 Just because mistakes are being made. 589 00:31:16,300 --> 00:31:19,400 People should think about their work, which is the most 590 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:22,300 important thing, and not, whether they should move the 591 00:31:22,300 --> 00:31:25,200 card here or there. So we make it easy for the 592 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:29,100 people, using the board to know how to operate the point. 593 00:31:29,300 --> 00:31:31,900 And that's pretty much all you have to say about this. 594 00:31:32,100 --> 00:31:36,800 It's a minor thing, but it can be a source of satisfaction for 595 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,100 the team members or for the managers. 596 00:31:39,300 --> 00:31:42,300 People are continuously mistaking how to work with the 597 00:31:42,300 --> 00:31:44,800 board. The next is about actually 598 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,200 having an established feedback loops and improving 599 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:49,800 collaboratively. So speaking about feedback loop 600 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,200 just tell you mentioned that kanban encourages mobile, 601 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,200 continuous delivery and continuous Improvement, whereby 602 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,400 like scrub, normally will have spring retro and all these 603 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:00,500 learnings in baked into the system itself. 604 00:32:00,700 --> 00:32:03,300 How does combine actually establish this feedback loop and 605 00:32:03,300 --> 00:32:07,700 continuous Improvement that? Yes, this wasn't in the cam bomb 606 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,800 body of knowledge in the With the feedback loops were not 607 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,000 institutionalized like I should say it was said in the very 608 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:18,700 early days of come on, you can have great respect and 609 00:32:18,700 --> 00:32:21,700 respecting meeting, or you can have a daily meeting if you want 610 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:23,500 to. But it's not something that can 611 00:32:23,500 --> 00:32:27,100 Bond preaches. And then that changed because we 612 00:32:27,100 --> 00:32:31,300 in the community also, learn it was getting more and more 613 00:32:31,300 --> 00:32:35,500 evidence that if people are not having daily meeting or weekly 614 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,300 review or things like that. They are implementations of 615 00:32:38,300 --> 00:32:41,400 combine word more. Proving over time and because 616 00:32:41,500 --> 00:32:45,000 every lean Journey must be a continuous Improvement Journey. 617 00:32:45,100 --> 00:32:48,300 It was institutionalize, that combine should also have these 618 00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,200 meetings. I want to say that it's not new 619 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,800 meetings that you need to add in order to do. 620 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,500 Come on. It's just like making sure that 621 00:32:56,500 --> 00:33:00,500 in your usual meetings, you review the data flow of work. 622 00:33:00,700 --> 00:33:03,600 Are there any blockers with the work on the board? 623 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,300 What's the next important thing to take working on? 624 00:33:06,500 --> 00:33:09,100 There's also the service delivery review and kanban as 625 00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:14,600 Dr. Which is somewhat like the Sprint demoing scrum is where 626 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:16,000 it's being reviewed. What? 627 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,300 This team over this service has the liver, has it next? 628 00:33:20,300 --> 00:33:23,800 The expectations of the client. Are there any issues with that? 629 00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,800 Then we have a lot of other, many other meetings like 630 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,800 strategy review risk review and so on so forth. 631 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:33,300 So these meetings have been introduced formally to come on 632 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:36,000 and these are the feedback loops that you just mentioned. 633 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:39,800 So I think the meetings is not so obvious for Become 634 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,000 practitioners because they would think that, okay. 635 00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:45,200 It has to be continuous limit. Work in progress, but that's not 636 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:46,900 actual time to mention that, okay. 637 00:33:46,900 --> 00:33:49,700 Here's the time that we have to do these continuous feedback 638 00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:52,400 loop and the Improvement. So, thanks for clarifying. 639 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,300 That speaking about Matrix. You mentioned few things about 640 00:33:55,300 --> 00:33:58,200 aging cycle, timely time. So what would you actually 641 00:33:58,300 --> 00:34:01,500 suggest for first-time practitioners of combin for them 642 00:34:01,500 --> 00:34:03,800 to measure something? Around the combat system? 643 00:34:04,500 --> 00:34:07,100 Yes. There are three core metrics 644 00:34:07,100 --> 00:34:10,699 income mobile to just have to To be aware of one. 645 00:34:10,699 --> 00:34:12,400 Is throughput. Meaning? 646 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,500 How much you deliver prior period of time. 647 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,400 It's a per week per month. It's cycle time. 648 00:34:18,699 --> 00:34:23,500 Meaning how much time it takes the card to exit the process, 649 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,000 and then it's working progress. How many cards do I have in 650 00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:30,900 progress? Actually, there is an equation 651 00:34:30,900 --> 00:34:34,300 from the statistics, that's called Littles law, which 652 00:34:34,300 --> 00:34:37,900 connects these three measures from this law. 653 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:41,500 It's obvious. As it says, the average cycle 654 00:34:41,500 --> 00:34:45,600 time equals the proximate, average width divided by the 655 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:50,000 approximate average, throughput. Because web and cycle time are 656 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,300 proportionate. It's clear from this law that 657 00:34:53,300 --> 00:34:58,100 the lower the whip, is the lower the cycle time becomes when, you 658 00:34:58,100 --> 00:35:01,600 know, two of these numbers, you can calculate the third one 659 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:04,800 without the action measuring it. So, it's very useful from this 660 00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:08,300 equation. You can easily understand in 661 00:35:08,300 --> 00:35:10,700 order to control. How quickly deliver work? 662 00:35:10,900 --> 00:35:14,300 You can either ask people to work faster, which doesn't 663 00:35:14,300 --> 00:35:18,000 usually happen or you can reduce the work in progress, which will 664 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,800 automatically equalize your cycle times. 665 00:35:21,100 --> 00:35:24,600 That's how I recommend approaching common metrics if 666 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,000 you measure cycle time which in throughput and those are under 667 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,000 control, I always recommend having a male on working 668 00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,300 progress teaching as well. It's the cycle comic, but for 669 00:35:35,300 --> 00:35:39,100 the work items that are currently in progress to choice. 670 00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:44,100 That I can recommend one is, of course, cumulative flow diagram. 671 00:35:44,300 --> 00:35:47,700 It's probably the most famous chart in the common space 672 00:35:47,700 --> 00:35:51,800 because it shows you all these three measures interconnected 673 00:35:52,100 --> 00:35:55,100 and I'm happy to share a video with your audience that talks 674 00:35:55,100 --> 00:35:57,600 about this. If you want to the Aging chart 675 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:02,700 shows you which web cards are currently being delayed compared 676 00:36:02,700 --> 00:36:06,800 to your historical data. So you can pinpoint the outliers 677 00:36:06,900 --> 00:36:10,400 actively work on them. So that Your system does not 678 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:12,600 become less predictable in the future. 679 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,200 So I'll make sure to have that in the show notes for the 680 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,400 listeners who are interested. The first about this. 681 00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:20,500 So speaking about, you know, you have done this for many years 682 00:36:20,500 --> 00:36:22,400 even companies has been more than a decade. 683 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,600 Right? What are some of the typical 684 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:27,900 anti patterns that you see from people implementing Combi not 685 00:36:27,900 --> 00:36:29,100 there? Yeah. 686 00:36:29,100 --> 00:36:32,400 Great question. I should probably say that anti 687 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:36,100 patterns are something that we call lower materially. 688 00:36:36,100 --> 00:36:38,000 Now. I know you know about the 689 00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,900 combine maturity. But maybe some of your listeners 690 00:36:40,900 --> 00:36:43,800 will not know about it. So this is relatively new body 691 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,800 of knowledge. It's being released officially I 692 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,100 think the year ago and it talks about different maturity levels 693 00:36:51,100 --> 00:36:55,100 for the organization and what practices these organizations 694 00:36:55,100 --> 00:36:59,100 can employ in order to improve their process maturity. 695 00:36:59,500 --> 00:37:02,900 Most of the anti-patterns. We would say our anti patterns 696 00:37:02,900 --> 00:37:05,500 are actually lower material conditions. 697 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,900 It's totally fine to have them but there are Better things that 698 00:37:09,900 --> 00:37:12,500 you can do. So, one thing would be having a 699 00:37:12,500 --> 00:37:17,000 separate swimlane leader. The horizontal lanes for each of 700 00:37:17,008 --> 00:37:19,800 the team members. We see this very often. 701 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:21,900 Again. It's not an anti-pattern, but 702 00:37:21,900 --> 00:37:23,500 it's something that can be better. 703 00:37:23,500 --> 00:37:26,900 Because when you have a board with horizontal lanes, for them 704 00:37:26,900 --> 00:37:30,500 separate team members, all they care about is their own work. 705 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,600 If somebody else on the team needs a hand, well, guess what? 706 00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:38,700 There's no help bribing. So we would recommend merging 707 00:37:38,700 --> 00:37:42,800 the Something different team members into one or two lanes so 708 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:46,000 that you can improve collaboration and creative 709 00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:49,700 environment, where people are more likely to help each other. 710 00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:53,200 This will improve flow overall for the whole team. 711 00:37:53,500 --> 00:37:56,800 Something else that I think is something that can be improved, 712 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:02,000 is that equal will not Define the work types that they managed 713 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,600 on a specific compound board. They will just see. 714 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:08,700 It's a test, a task is, okay, but in the comments page, we 715 00:38:08,700 --> 00:38:12,700 don't really Really care. How busy or we care how much you 716 00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:15,500 deliver? What's the actual result of your 717 00:38:15,500 --> 00:38:18,000 work? Focus on the outcome, manage the 718 00:38:18,000 --> 00:38:20,400 work and not work? That's what we say. 719 00:38:20,700 --> 00:38:23,900 If you manage tasks on a condom on board. 720 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:27,000 It's likely that you put a ticket that says I am 721 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,000 investigating the problem. All right, but what has 722 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:31,700 happened? Did you find the root? 723 00:38:31,700 --> 00:38:34,100 Cause did you fix the problem? I don't care that you 724 00:38:34,100 --> 00:38:36,600 investigation. The problem for three out why I 725 00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,700 care if the problem is solved or not. 726 00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:43,200 My point is don't shred your kanban board tasks. 727 00:38:43,500 --> 00:38:47,400 Just so you want to show how busy you are, managed work on 728 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,600 the combo board. It has a tyke to it. 729 00:38:49,700 --> 00:38:54,600 And this type has some actual value or the client unless the 730 00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,600 card on the process on the workflow and as any meaningful 731 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:01,900 value for the client, it's probably something you shouldn't 732 00:39:01,900 --> 00:39:04,300 put in there. This also something that we see 733 00:39:04,300 --> 00:39:06,200 a lot. Probably the third thing I would 734 00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,000 like to outline the steeple putting working. 735 00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:13,500 Auguste limits on the difference Kate's or board, but not 736 00:39:13,500 --> 00:39:17,500 confining the whole word, but a grip limit that's worth like 737 00:39:17,500 --> 00:39:19,300 this. So, you might have three 738 00:39:19,300 --> 00:39:24,200 columns, which, let's say, 55 with per column, but you want to 739 00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:29,600 allow a total of ten cards on the whole board irrespective of 740 00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,900 which column exactly they are in, this is something I would 741 00:39:32,900 --> 00:39:37,100 always recommend, have a total limit of everything on the board 742 00:39:37,100 --> 00:39:41,200 of whatever and then you shoot, Fine-tune the individual limits 743 00:39:41,200 --> 00:39:44,100 of the different Columns of the, make sure to confine the whole 744 00:39:44,100 --> 00:39:47,500 thing because we obviously care about whole and not the 745 00:39:47,500 --> 00:39:49,600 individual work states on the court. 746 00:39:50,300 --> 00:39:53,900 Why do you think people miss this limiting the group amount 747 00:39:53,900 --> 00:39:56,300 of work in progress? Is it because they want to 748 00:39:56,300 --> 00:39:59,700 optimize for certain stage only? Or is there something else that 749 00:40:00,000 --> 00:40:03,400 they typically have? Well, I think it's probably the 750 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,800 natural way that we step of stinking evolves. 751 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,800 You see a big column like the Ready for testing, for example, 752 00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:13,700 and you put a limit to it. And then you see if some other 753 00:40:13,700 --> 00:40:16,400 group of cards that needs to delimited and you put a limit to 754 00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,600 it, then somehow you limit the work on the whole board. 755 00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:23,500 It's very often that you could have resolved, the situation in 756 00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:26,100 the first place. If you just limited everything 757 00:40:26,100 --> 00:40:29,600 with a group limit, maybe I'm not saying that it would have 758 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,100 worked, but sometimes it works. It's just the sort of I should 759 00:40:33,100 --> 00:40:36,900 say, a maturity Journey. Maybe I have no better answer 760 00:40:36,900 --> 00:40:38,500 for that. It's just evolution of how 761 00:40:38,500 --> 00:40:41,900 people Yeah, because the next I would think about is that 762 00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:44,800 typically in some teams you work with specialized role, just like 763 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,600 what you mentioned q a roll, or sometimes even third party, 764 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,000 right? You wait for other people to 765 00:40:50,000 --> 00:40:53,200 come back to you and this will definitely affect your total 766 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,100 group work in progress. So, how would you typically 767 00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:59,500 handle such situations? Yeah, we will designate a 768 00:40:59,500 --> 00:41:03,200 separate column or separate lane or the third party group and we 769 00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:05,100 will make sure to have a limit to it. 770 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:09,000 We will make sure to have an agreement with the other. 771 00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,700 Group that we depend on what type of SLA they can give to us. 772 00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:16,900 So when we put a card on that column, if you use gondolas or 773 00:41:16,900 --> 00:41:19,700 other tools, you can automatically create tickets in 774 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:23,500 the other team sport and it's a. And then we will know that they 775 00:41:23,500 --> 00:41:25,700 have to address this within three days. 776 00:41:25,700 --> 00:41:29,600 For example, we can monitor that from within our own boards. 777 00:41:29,700 --> 00:41:32,200 If you use software again, if you use the physical board, I'm 778 00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,200 not sure. You have to draw some sticks on 779 00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:37,600 the card or something, you can monitor this, and if the team 780 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:41,700 that you depend on order, Party depend on is about exceed, their 781 00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:44,300 icily. You just pick up the phone and 782 00:41:44,300 --> 00:41:47,300 talk to them and say, Hey guys, you're about to exceed the 783 00:41:47,300 --> 00:41:50,000 actually I depend on you. What can we do about? 784 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:53,400 Basically, you need leadership from that point onwards, but the 785 00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,300 mechanical steps is father, he easy. 786 00:41:55,500 --> 00:41:58,500 You just put it on a separate column or separately and you 787 00:41:58,500 --> 00:42:02,000 start a timer. Let's pull like this, right? 788 00:42:02,100 --> 00:42:04,500 So speaking about the popularity of the all these combined. 789 00:42:04,500 --> 00:42:07,800 I'm sure like many people have actually implemented any tips 790 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,200 that you want to give for all. All the combined petitioners, 791 00:42:10,200 --> 00:42:13,700 maybe one golden tips for people maybe to do, so that they can 792 00:42:13,700 --> 00:42:15,100 improve what they have been doing. 793 00:42:15,100 --> 00:42:18,100 In terms of combined practice. I would definitely recommend 794 00:42:18,100 --> 00:42:22,000 taking a look at the camel maturity model, not for anything 795 00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:24,800 else, but to actually see what's possible. 796 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,600 There are more than 150 more than 200 practices. 797 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,700 I think morning, 200 practices you can use with combat. 798 00:42:31,900 --> 00:42:35,300 Most of the people will use five or six through ten. 799 00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,100 There is a huge opportunity for improvement down there. 800 00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:40,800 So just Get out. See what's in there. 801 00:42:41,100 --> 00:42:45,000 Take some ideas, experiment with them, take out the radius 802 00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,000 experiment with them and create your own comment. 803 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:49,700 Mentation. This is very important. 804 00:42:49,900 --> 00:42:51,400 This is one of my golden nuggets. 805 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:54,400 It took me a while to get there. Although it's common sense. 806 00:42:54,700 --> 00:42:57,300 You can't borrow your process from somebody else. 807 00:42:57,500 --> 00:43:01,000 You need to create your own, you'll get a lot of books. 808 00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:04,700 You read a lot of books on this on that and they will all try to 809 00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:08,900 convince you how great their invention is, but the reality is 810 00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:12,700 Our context skin and nothing works equally well in different 811 00:43:12,700 --> 00:43:16,300 contexts, especially in complex systems, which are companies 812 00:43:16,300 --> 00:43:20,200 are. So it's all experimentation and 813 00:43:20,200 --> 00:43:22,700 scientifically proven improvements. 814 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,400 I would also, add not just books are also tools that you bought. 815 00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,800 Sometimes their limit should not be adaptable to what you have in 816 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,000 terms of context. And I didn't know that they're 817 00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,700 actually like hundreds of different practices that you can 818 00:43:34,700 --> 00:43:36,800 do with combined. So thanks for sharing that. 819 00:43:36,900 --> 00:43:38,900 I'll also make sure that the combined maturity. 820 00:43:39,100 --> 00:43:42,000 Is put inside the show notes. So the media has been a pleasure 821 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:44,700 talking to you before we actually end the conversation. 822 00:43:44,700 --> 00:43:47,300 I'd like to ask one question that I normally ask for all my 823 00:43:47,300 --> 00:43:50,300 guests which is for you to share your tree technical leadership 824 00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:52,400 wisdom. So that we all can learn and 825 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:54,500 improve ourselves based on your wisdom. 826 00:43:55,100 --> 00:43:57,200 Thank you, angry spring pleasure. 827 00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,100 My three things, actually. The first one, I'll just mention 828 00:44:01,300 --> 00:44:05,600 that I always say that don't take the Spotify model or 829 00:44:05,700 --> 00:44:08,500 whatever model. I'm not trying to pinpoint 830 00:44:08,500 --> 00:44:10,800 spotted. Fight here, but don't take this 831 00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:13,800 model and just impose it on your organization. 832 00:44:14,100 --> 00:44:18,700 Start with small change, experiment, learn from it and 833 00:44:18,700 --> 00:44:21,700 redo it again. This is the only way you can 834 00:44:21,700 --> 00:44:26,400 achieve business agility. I am 100% sure about this anyone 835 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,600 who's trying to sell you, a big transformation that will happen 836 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,900 in six months and you'll be a new company just doesn't work. 837 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,500 So yeah. Experiment and then that's it. 838 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,900 The second thing. I always preach about it. 839 00:44:39,000 --> 00:44:41,600 Obsessed with your customers success. 840 00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:45,500 If your clients are successful, then you will be successful 841 00:44:45,500 --> 00:44:47,200 eventually, even if you're not right. 842 00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:51,100 Now, what we do at combination, very simple, we work with the 843 00:44:51,107 --> 00:44:54,800 big clients we have and we try to make and evangelists of our 844 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,900 brand we just do whatever we need to do. 845 00:44:57,900 --> 00:45:00,900 Whatever we have to do, where we want to do with, whatever should 846 00:45:00,900 --> 00:45:05,100 be done to make those clients. We big fans of carbonized and 847 00:45:05,100 --> 00:45:07,500 that's the only reasonable strategy in my opinion. 848 00:45:07,900 --> 00:45:11,300 The third thing. It's also not very Tikki but 849 00:45:11,500 --> 00:45:14,700 it's that there is no replacement for the white people 850 00:45:14,700 --> 00:45:16,600 in the right position. It's a lesson. 851 00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:20,200 I really learned many times throughout my career, but the 852 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:25,100 right guy or whatever, the gender of the person is in the 853 00:45:25,100 --> 00:45:28,800 right position. You just can't replace that my 854 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,600 tip for anybody. There is don't rush to hire 855 00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,000 people. Just hire the right people. 856 00:45:34,300 --> 00:45:36,400 This is extremely important in my opinion. 857 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:40,200 Wow, that's really like a golden advice in the last one there. 858 00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,400 I think I would agree as well, finding the right people at the 859 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,400 right time as well. I think it's also interesting, 860 00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,300 right? Because yeah, I think people is 861 00:45:47,300 --> 00:45:49,600 really crucial, not just the system and the tools. 862 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,000 Thanks again the method for being on the show. 863 00:45:52,100 --> 00:45:55,100 If people would like to interact more with you or connect with 864 00:45:55,100 --> 00:45:57,900 you online, or even find more about companies where they can 865 00:45:57,900 --> 00:46:01,600 find all these online, the best place to find, use on Lincoln 866 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,000 just type my name. You will find me there if you 867 00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:08,800 want to learn about common eyes. Just type companies don't come 868 00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:11,900 and you will see our website. Thank you Henry. 869 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,600 It's been real pleasure and let's catch up. 870 00:46:17,100 --> 00:46:20,500 Thank you for listening to this episode and for staying right 871 00:46:20,500 --> 00:46:23,400 till the end. If you highly enjoyed, please 872 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,200 share it with your friends and colleagues who you think would 873 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,000 also benefit from listening to this episode. 874 00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:32,100 And if you're new to the podcast, make sure to subscribe 875 00:46:32,100 --> 00:46:35,000 and leave me your valuable review and feedback. 876 00:46:35,100 --> 00:46:38,800 It really, really helps me a lot in order to grow these podcasts 877 00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,400 better. You can also find the full show 878 00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,800 notes of this conversation on the episode page at technically 879 00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:48,200 journal, the death website. Putting the full transcript 880 00:46:48,300 --> 00:46:52,000 interesting quotes and links to the resources and mentions from 881 00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,800 the conversation. And lastly make sure to 882 00:46:54,800 --> 00:46:57,200 subscribe to the show's mailing list on technology. 883 00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,700 No, the death to get notified for any future episodes. 884 00:47:01,100 --> 00:47:03,800 Stay tuned for the next technique Journal episode. 885 00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:05,500 And until then. Goodbye.