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Hey, a quick message, for those 
of you who are listening to this

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episode on Spotify, I have a 
small favor to ask Spotify. 

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Now allows mobile users to rate 
podcasts, I would really 

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appreciate it. 
If you can take a quick pass to 

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go to the technique Journal 
podcast page, and leave your 

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favorite show, your best rating 
on Spotify. 

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It will help me a lot to get 
this podcast to reach more 

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people on the platform. 
Thanks a lot, every organization

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had a mission of region and we 
mentioned actually has a certain

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set of values. 
Use. 

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So believing those values is 
supercritical, even as an 

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industry leader, you must ensure
that number one plastic move 

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have to do with your living 
those values. 

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You're talking about those 
values on every opportunity that

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you get to talk to your team, it
should actually become kind of a

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day-to-day Affairs. 
This helps a lot in alignment. 

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Hey everyone. 
My name is Henry Surya, we 

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Robin. 
And you're listening to the 

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technology, you know, podcast 
the show where I'll be bringing 

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you the greatest technical 
leaders practitioners and 

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thought leaders in the industry 
to discuss about their Journey 

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ideas and practices that we all 
can learn and apply to build a 

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highly performing technical team
and to make an impact in your 

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personal work. 
So let's dive into our Journal. 

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Hello, to all of you. 
My friends and my Listen this 

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welcome to the technology on our
podcast, the show where you can 

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learn about technical leadership
and Excellence from my 

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conversations with great thought
leaders in the tech industry. 

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If this is your first time 
listening to tackle the journal,

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don't forget to subscribe and 
follow the show on your podcast 

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app and on LinkedIn, Twitter and
Instagram. 

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And if you'd like to support my 
journey, creating this podcast, 

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subscribe as a patron at Tech 
lead. 

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You know that Dev slash Patron. 
Time goes by pretty fast. 

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And we are fast approaching the 
last month of the year. 

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The so far in this year. 2022, 
technology onal has delivered a 

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total of 45 episodes including 
this one. 

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Thank you for always being a 
loyal listener. 

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And I hope that all the episodes
this year have been useful and 

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inspiring for all of you. 
This current episode you're 

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listening to is the last episode
of the year as I'm planning to 

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take a break in December. 
And I'll be back with a new 

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episode in early January, 20 23.
So please, stay tuned for the 

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new episode during the break 
technology. 

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You know, will Face some of the 
best episodes in 2022. 

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So if you haven't had a chance 
to listen to any of those, make 

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sure you also check them out 
during this period. 

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And now, back to today's 
episode, my guest for today's 

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episode is Manoj hours, the 
Minaj is currently the CTO at 

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julot and previously, the S VP 
of engineering at tokopedia in 

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this episode manage shared 
engineering Leadership Lessons, 

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From his recent experience, has 
managed started by describing 

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the role of A senior engineering
leader before then explaining 

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some important aspects of 
engineering leadership such as 

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scaling up, engineering team 
hiring engineers and Engineering

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managers creating culture 
alignment putting in place 

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engineering governance, and 
maintaining engineering 

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productivity towards the end 
manage shared. 

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Some of his important Lessons 
Learned before Ending by sharing

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his Tech leadership. 
Wisdom. 

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I really enjoyed my conversation
with manage. 

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As there are many insights from 
this composition, related to 

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engineering leadership, which 
are highly applicable. 

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If you are also in the same role
within your organization, and if

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you find this episode useful, 
please help. 

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Share it with your friends and 
colleagues. 

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So they can also benefit from 
listening to this episode. 

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I always appreciate your support
and sharing and spreading this 

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podcast and the knowledge to 
more people before we continue 

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to the conversation with Manoj. 
Let's hear some words from our 

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sponsored by skills matter. 
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welcome back to another episode 

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of the technology on our podcast
today. 

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I'm so excited to meet someone 
who is nearer to my site design,

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which is in Southeast Asia, my 
guess is manage our watch. 

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T, he is currently the CEO at 
Judo Financial Tech startup 

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based in each other. 
Before Judo manage, spend around

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six years in tokopedia, helping 
them to scale to becoming one of

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the largest scale of company in 
Indonesia, and Southeast Asia in

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general as well. 
Managed today will be sharing a 

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lot of his lessons then maybe 
from top of video experience, 

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looking forward for this happy 
to have you here manage. 

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Thank you, Henry. 
Happy to be here. 

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So my knowledge I always like to
hear first thing from the gas 

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Which is to share about your 
experience, your career Journey,

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any kind of highlights and 
turning points that you want to 

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share with the audience. 
Oh sure. 

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So I come from India and I was 
born and brought up in northern 

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part of India. 
So from early on I developed 

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some interest in physics and 
Mathematics so engineering was 

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like a very natural course for 
me I was very fortunate to 

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actually get some very good 
teachers who got me interested 

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in those subjects. 
Very deeply. 

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I develop some serious, interest
in programming and College. 

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And now I got introduced to see 
programming got introduced to 

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this operating system for Unix. 
It was 2000, error.com. 

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Crash was just about the happen.
So we were busy working using a 

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dumb terminal when I say dumb 
terminals with. 

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These were like terminals, that 
will connect to very high-end 

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servers. 
So whatever command you type in 

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with Lee, they will go to the 
server and you'll get the 

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response back. 
So it may sound like a very 

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primitive at this time, but they
were very exciting. 

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Even then, particularly 
throughout my Knowledge time, I 

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enjoy tinkering and coding more 
than on the subjects. 

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The academics has such apparent 
CI, learn Java, and they were 

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like a players and servlets. 
I don't know. 

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Whether you remember them know 
them or not. 

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So, it was a very interesting 
time in 2004, I got a job 

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placement done. 
I joined a huge software systems

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in Delhi. 
India as software engineer, this

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company was basically our 
Telecom software company and BC 

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built all this tag. 
That is probably getting used in

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this podcast. 
For example, it will BJP 

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telephony, stack. 
It was some really exciting 

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work, then I got exposed to in 
that organization and being the 

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first job. 
I was really lucky to actually 

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get that exposure perspective of
the code that you get. 

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When you read, good code, it 
actually sets you for future 

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with really done a lot by 
reading other people's code in 

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2005, I moved to a smaller 
startup called solid core. 

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So this was basically in to be, 
to be security domain. 

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They built the product, which 
was basically, We are time, 

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whitelisting solution, initially
meant for installations. 

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On ATMs, for example, you do not
want any vulnerable software to 

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actually run on the server, so 
you can have lock down the 

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server. 
So for that, we would write a 

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module or system with six in the
kernel itself. 

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So, it was easier done on 
lyrics, and I was part of the 

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Linux team, but I got to work 
with people who were working on 

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Solaris product, which was not 
open source, then, on Windows, 

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which was not open source there 
and not to be those. 

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Now, they know so much, they 
were reverse engineer. 

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Mr. Rivers annual binary is when
I was working with them 

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basically. 
I'll see them disassemble and go

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through that disassembly, covid 
and figuring out, okay? 

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This is a big blister traversal 
or something adapt. 

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This was really fantastic and I 
really break, my Linux expertise

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in the backfield of my career. 
It 2007, I moved to Adobe until 

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this time in a real industry set
up. 

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I never worked for Consumer 
company consumer product. 

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It was mostly a command line 
protocol Stacks so far right? 

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So I wanted to actually gain 
Exposure as well. 

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And I do be here was a great 
choice for that hungry. 

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I got this opportunity, I was 
assigned to a product called 

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Adobe Photoshop Elements, which 
is a consumer version of 

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Photoshop. 
The interesting part is that 

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it's product actually shared 
actual code from Photoshop. 

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So, you are working on the same 
code base, in a sense work on 

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that product for multiple 
releases. 

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Again, reading code from real 
experts, people who actually 

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wrote Photoshop version zero 
when lot of them were actually 

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still there leaving that code 
and seeing how the performance 

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Actually a key factor while 
writing software and how quality

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actually becomes so critical. 
You get very different 

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perspective on quality. 
When you move from companies 

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like startups into a bigger 
organization, like Adobe because

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now you have to ship a code that
time we were actually shipping 

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CDs, so they'll be yearly 
release. 

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The industry is burnt and later 
on it, we actually went to a 

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cloud-based software and so on. 
But the idea is that when you're

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shipping here, this huge 
responsibility of shipping it. 

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It cannot break you do not have 
an option of attaching it all 

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the time when you do have an 
option, but I mean it is a very 

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costly. 
Also, as for the company, it has

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all changed in the webinar, but 
still it was a very interesting 

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experience that I got a 
different perspective on 

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quality. 
How do you do that? 

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So, after multiple reasons for 
many years where I worked on big

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00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,600
product, flows image algorithms 
and so on, I also got some 

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00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,100
interest in computer vision. 
There are 2012, I'd move within 

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00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:10,900
Adobe, I move to a different 
division which was marketing 

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00:10:10,900 --> 00:10:13,000
Cloud Vision. 
This is when I kind of 

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00:10:13,008 --> 00:10:16,500
reconnected to web Technologies 
written in Java, mostly a Java 

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00:10:16,600 --> 00:10:19,600
itself had evolved. 
Since I tried it in college 

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00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,600
other than those Web services. 
I've got to work on some very 

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00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:26,500
exciting stuff, like big data. 
And I also got introduced to a 

200
00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,500
very exciting area for machine 
learning which leave your 

201
00:10:29,500 --> 00:10:32,100
deploying random Forest to solve
certain problems. 

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00:10:33,100 --> 00:10:36,400
In 2015, I was discreetly at a 
juncture where I thought, okay, 

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00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:39,100
I want to explore the startups 
Aguirre, moving from A, to B, 

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00:10:39,300 --> 00:10:42,400
the commerce was growing, a lot 
in India and basically, I was 

205
00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,600
looking out for opportunities, 
but at the same time, I got in 

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00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,100
touch with tokopedia two things,
excited me a lot. 

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00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,500
So one was the business model 
itself before this. 

208
00:10:50,700 --> 00:10:53,400
Never heard of a Marketplace 
which does not charge any 

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00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:58,700
commission from the merchants 
because that decision itself and

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00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:02,300
it did not also believe much in 
the cash back and it will keep 

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00:11:02,300 --> 00:11:04,600
up to the scale. 
I could imagine the rookie if 

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00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:07,100
you go with this approach what 
kind of scale you can actually 

213
00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:09,800
attract in the business. 
So that rule 1 the second was 

214
00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:12,500
when I came to Jakarta just to 
meet our team. 

215
00:11:12,700 --> 00:11:15,300
There are a lot of systems that 
should be built with not been 

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00:11:15,300 --> 00:11:17,400
really a lot in. 
That was a very attractive 

217
00:11:17,500 --> 00:11:20,200
opportunity for me. 
I will not find a similar 

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00:11:20,200 --> 00:11:22,200
opportunity. 
To do go and rebuild value those

219
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:24,600
systems in India that this lie 
about me. 

220
00:11:24,700 --> 00:11:27,700
Moving through, Indonesia 
pursuing tokopedia opportunity. 

221
00:11:28,100 --> 00:11:31,100
When I came here we go to 16. 
We were already on a journey 

222
00:11:31,100 --> 00:11:33,500
just beginning. 
So it was a basically a mono 

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00:11:33,500 --> 00:11:36,100
that written in Perl. 
That was the e-commerce website.

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00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:38,700
It was all implemented in a 
political framework developed by

225
00:11:38,700 --> 00:11:40,700
the team here. 
We were basically in the process

226
00:11:40,700 --> 00:11:44,800
of breaking that monolith piece 
by piece into services and those

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00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,600
Services were all written in 
goal and we chose goal and for 

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00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,300
its performance. 
It's concurrency support and it 

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00:11:50,300 --> 00:11:52,800
was a And language and is very 
simple to learn. 

230
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I mean case in point is that 
okay all the top of your team 

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basically was well versed with 
were but they did not know 

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galang. 
But you also learned it on the 

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job. 
So when I came it was already in

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progress. 
And I joined as team basically 

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solving the scalability problem 
for hats. 

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And then later on, I joined as 
an architect, but I picked on 

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like many rules putting a 
different hat. 

238
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Depending on, what do you want 
to get done? 

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Helping the mistake team as well
moving search platform from 

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solar to elasticsearch. 
Doing Rock migrations initially.

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We were on pram, basically on 
cold data center called. 

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Is that then from business we 
move to Cloud first movie to AWS

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later. 
On also moving from AWS to unbar

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following the Alibaba investment
and they were like copper other 

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regions as well. 
So over time, over six years and

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it's been very, very exciting 
Journey. 

247
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Our later are specially leading 
the market place team in 

248
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tokopedia and data science, and 
data entry team over time. 

249
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I Think We crave a lot 
leadership actually also gave a 

250
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lot later, part of We'll be 
getting we were able to attract 

251
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some really good talent from 
Valley who actually helped shape

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tokopedia pattern and 
transforming it into a 

253
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world-class organization, who 
benefited a lot from all over 

254
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experience for our have been a 
very fulfilling Journey as a 

255
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starting from a smaller starter 
to IPO, which we went after our 

256
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merger with go-jek, and gtf in 
to go to subtitles a really, 

257
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really great journey after 
spending, like, six and a half 

258
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years into obedia. 
I had this personal ambition to 

259
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go again and work in a smaller 
set up, I can of harder. 

260
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Okay, this is the right time. 
Let me actually do this now 

261
00:13:23,000 --> 00:13:25,000
because I'm already turning 40, 
if not. 

262
00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:29,800
Now then when I only get older 
so I joined too low as a CTO 

263
00:13:29,900 --> 00:13:31,800
assembly. 
Just two months back here, 

264
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either from Tech startup at you 
just said this company is into 

265
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consumer lending three things 
excited. 

266
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Me one was the mission and 
vision of jewelry itself, which 

267
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was basically to enable access 
to credit for all the consumers 

268
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in Indonesia. 
Especially the ones that do not 

269
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have access to, the traditional 
means of cry. 

270
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Unbanked population under Bank 
population and so on, if that 

271
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axis is, don't provide it to 
them two things happen rights 

272
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one either they cannot get out 
of where they are. 

273
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Sometimes they need money for 
paying school fees for their 

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kids. 
Sometimes they want to purchase 

275
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up bike so that they can 
actually join good. 

276
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Egg has arrived in and improve 
their nature and prostate and so

277
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on. 
I think this mission and vision 

278
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was like, pretty exciting for 
me. 

279
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The second was, basically the 
founder and reuse a CEO Hideaway

280
00:14:17,300 --> 00:14:20,400
persistent in New York, and 
keeps that a problem. 

281
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:22,400
For a long time. 
He started this company, six 

282
00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:24,100
years back, almost the same 
Diamond. 

283
00:14:24,100 --> 00:14:27,200
I actually came to Indonesia 
somehow, I got in touch and I 

284
00:14:27,208 --> 00:14:29,900
all moved by that. 
The third thing was, despite 

285
00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:33,100
this being a very large Market a
very crowded Market as well. 

286
00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,500
I like the focus that the team 
actually has a mannequin has on 

287
00:14:36,500 --> 00:14:39,200
the core of the business. 
So those things actually excited

288
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,000
me as well and I'm here leading 
the technology module area. 

289
00:14:42,700 --> 00:14:44,900
Thank you so much for sharing 
your Rich experience. 

290
00:14:45,100 --> 00:14:48,000
One thing that I could see the 
core stays the same in 

291
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engineering. 
You started with very Hands-On 

292
00:14:50,100 --> 00:14:53,600
from The call may be some device
and operating system go to 

293
00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,400
photoshop, which is a lot of 
algorithms, I believe that you 

294
00:14:56,400 --> 00:15:00,000
have to look that now, moving 
into startups and Indonesian 

295
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,800
market and now becoming 
leadership senior leadership, 

296
00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:06,000
maybe that's not from there by 
becoming a senior engineering 

297
00:15:06,000 --> 00:15:08,000
leader. 
What do you think a role of 

298
00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:10,100
senior engineering leader should
be? 

299
00:15:10,300 --> 00:15:13,200
What's the responsibility is or 
what are unique about being a 

300
00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,900
senior engineering leader? 
That's a great question. 

301
00:15:15,900 --> 00:15:18,100
So answer you. 
I don't like that word but as 

302
00:15:18,100 --> 00:15:20,400
you rise up the ladder right is 
a position. 

303
00:15:20,500 --> 00:15:21,900
Ins couple of things happened 
there. 

304
00:15:21,900 --> 00:15:25,000
So what is the responsibility? 
Then Grease, the threads in 

305
00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:27,300
figures. 
So when I sit back in business, 

306
00:15:27,300 --> 00:15:29,600
I mean now your school bacteria 
becomes larger. 

307
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,400
One thing that also increases 
the ambiguity that expectations 

308
00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,000
from your roll T increases. 
So now, you do not know very 

309
00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,400
clearly. 
What is expected of you to give 

310
00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:41,300
an example. 
There is this phrase, when you 

311
00:15:41,300 --> 00:15:44,700
start your career initial few 
years, when you're a software 

312
00:15:44,700 --> 00:15:47,700
engineer or seniors, or be here,
you're told what to do. 

313
00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,000
And you're also told how to do 
when you have to go and do it. 

314
00:15:50,600 --> 00:15:53,400
You go further may be seen as a 
failure to principal indeed. 

315
00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,100
There are so on. 
Now you are told what to do. 

316
00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,400
But not told how to do you need 
to figure that out but as you go

317
00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,200
further I think you are not told
even what to do and how to do we

318
00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:06,500
have to figure it out, you have 
to figure out what to do and how

319
00:16:06,500 --> 00:16:10,100
to do so that is what happens 
here, but for senior engineering

320
00:16:10,100 --> 00:16:12,700
leadership roles, there are 
bunch of things that are very 

321
00:16:12,700 --> 00:16:16,300
common as you move into a 
managerial ladder particularity 

322
00:16:16,700 --> 00:16:18,900
for data. 
First, one thing is a given, 

323
00:16:18,900 --> 00:16:20,700
right? 
So you will be spending Being a 

324
00:16:20,700 --> 00:16:24,300
significant part of the time in 
the people management, managing 

325
00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:27,200
people just it can change based 
on the organization size. 

326
00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,200
For example, if it's a small 
start-up less than 10 people, 

327
00:16:30,300 --> 00:16:33,800
you as a CTO will also be there 
in a certain responsibility of 

328
00:16:33,808 --> 00:16:37,100
writing code etcetera etcetera. 
But when started actually goes 

329
00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,500
beyond certain size, for 
example, it's a 300 people start

330
00:16:39,500 --> 00:16:42,800
up, you will really do so, but 
people management remains true 

331
00:16:42,800 --> 00:16:45,700
even for a small start-up where 
I think people management. 

332
00:16:45,700 --> 00:16:48,100
What do you mean by that? 
I mean, for example, hiding or 

333
00:16:48,100 --> 00:16:52,000
even like before hiring writing 
the job, That looking for people

334
00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:55,400
partnering with your group and 
team ensuring hand be pipelined 

335
00:16:55,700 --> 00:16:58,700
hiding those, people onboarding 
them building the process for 

336
00:16:58,700 --> 00:17:01,700
onboarding growing providing a 
clear career path. 

337
00:17:01,700 --> 00:17:04,900
For each of them coaching them, 
mentoring them and all those 

338
00:17:04,900 --> 00:17:06,500
actually become part of the 
people management level. 

339
00:17:06,500 --> 00:17:09,300
You have to do is a very 
important part of your job 

340
00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:12,000
description. 
You need to partner with the HR 

341
00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:14,000
team of people team in your 
organization. 

342
00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:17,599
Take care of the organization, 
ensuring the right policies are 

343
00:17:17,608 --> 00:17:20,400
being built and they are helpful
in that knowledge. 

344
00:17:20,500 --> 00:17:22,099
Knowledge industry. 
Sometimes, there is this 

345
00:17:22,099 --> 00:17:24,400
conflict at work. 
A lot of HR folks coming from 

346
00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:26,800
say additional backgrounds, they
will actually put a policy that 

347
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:30,300
does not apply to the ID as much
doing a performance appraisal 

348
00:17:30,300 --> 00:17:32,600
effectively. 
And that also like a kind of a 

349
00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:36,700
black art and then participating
an egg branding, for example. 

350
00:17:36,700 --> 00:17:38,100
So all these are the people 
aspect. 

351
00:17:38,100 --> 00:17:40,800
So that is one. 
The second aspect is that now 

352
00:17:40,800 --> 00:17:43,800
you have a team that we are 
built and the team is active are

353
00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:45,900
taken care of second important 
thing. 

354
00:17:45,900 --> 00:17:47,800
And probably, this is the most 
important function of our 

355
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,400
technology leader is executing 
on it. 

356
00:17:50,900 --> 00:17:53,800
Enabling the business of product
through that execution. 

357
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:56,400
So there is a vision that is set
by the founder and by the power 

358
00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:58,200
of theme the weather business 
team that they want to do 

359
00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,600
certain things in general. 
Team is the one that will 

360
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,600
actually make it through here, 
so that execution is super, 

361
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,900
super important. 
LG execute as you bid, those 

362
00:18:06,900 --> 00:18:09,900
products release them. 
Yes, them monitor them, they'll 

363
00:18:09,900 --> 00:18:12,000
be bunch of things that are 
spoken, right? 

364
00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,100
So for started setting speed 
matters, a lot. 

365
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,200
How fast can you actually do 
this? 

366
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,000
But in addition to speed quality
matters, A lot. 

367
00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:23,800
So, whatever you're doing, you 
have to do it in the right 

368
00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:25,400
manner. 
If you don't do that in the 

369
00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:28,600
right manner then also you are 
able to churn out products or 

370
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,700
forward very quickly. 
It is not helping the customers.

371
00:18:32,100 --> 00:18:34,500
We have to ensure that its speed
is with quality. 

372
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,400
Third aspect is often forgotten 
and that is where the technology

373
00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:40,600
part comes in is the agility 
with wrist. 

374
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,700
Your team can actually react to 
the changes in the requirement 

375
00:18:43,700 --> 00:18:46,800
or changes in the business. 
And so on this requires, 

376
00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:48,700
fundamentally agreed 
architecture. 

377
00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,700
That is where all these 
Companies need to understand 

378
00:18:51,700 --> 00:18:53,300
that they are technology 
companies first. 

379
00:18:53,600 --> 00:18:56,100
Then we'll be on top of that, 
you build the business and 

380
00:18:56,100 --> 00:18:58,000
products. 
So that is the second part of 

381
00:18:58,008 --> 00:19:00,400
the first part of the people, 
the second part of the execution

382
00:19:00,700 --> 00:19:02,600
and the third part of the 
technology leadership is 

383
00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,100
building a tech rotovap when I 
say, take a road map, so else 

384
00:19:06,100 --> 00:19:08,700
you get into the cycle of 
churning out products building 

385
00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:11,800
things and so on. 
And as you see it from the first

386
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:15,100
100, user thousand users to 
10,000 users to a million users 

387
00:19:15,100 --> 00:19:17,900
root n by n. 
And so on she would accumulate 

388
00:19:17,900 --> 00:19:20,100
debt. 
And what is tagged a TechNet is 

389
00:19:20,100 --> 00:19:21,900
busy? 
That you have taken a decision 

390
00:19:21,900 --> 00:19:25,000
in the past, which was good for 
the past, but not good anymore. 

391
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,600
As you scared for the or you 
took a shortcut in the past, but

392
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,300
that shortcut needs to be fixed.
Basically, at that time. 

393
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,800
You said, oh, I will fix it 
tomorrow, but tomorrow, he has 

394
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:35,500
already become yesterday. 
I'm so you need to go and pay 

395
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,200
that debt. 
So, proactively designing, or 

396
00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,800
redesigning the architecture to 
ensure that platforms ready for 

397
00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:45,600
future scalability requirements.
That is another responsibility 

398
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,600
that this team actually has. 
And when I see Tech roadmap, it 

399
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:52,300
does not only mean He said that 
were part of the product. 

400
00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,800
It also means infrastructure and
security it needs the data 

401
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,700
protection. 
It means the back end in the 

402
00:19:57,700 --> 00:20:00,300
front end. 
It means the Q&A, practice Elder

403
00:20:00,300 --> 00:20:03,400
automations and so on all those 
in so those three things, 

404
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,100
people, execution and Tech 
roadmap. 

405
00:20:05,100 --> 00:20:07,400
I think as you become a senior 
leader, that will be important 

406
00:20:07,700 --> 00:20:09,100
one. 
Last piece I will say, which is 

407
00:20:09,100 --> 00:20:13,500
a general requirement as you go 
into, especially the executive 

408
00:20:13,500 --> 00:20:17,200
management level is having or 
developing the right business 

409
00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:20,300
product mindset. 
Because what I fear is a unless 

410
00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:22,600
you Actually have a great 
business product, understanding 

411
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:26,800
you cannot even build the right 
architecture or design because 

412
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,100
it has always to be in the 
context of current requirement 

413
00:20:30,100 --> 00:20:32,500
or the local context. 
Basically, there are things 

414
00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:35,100
which are basically a kind of a 
fully booked for scalability, 

415
00:20:35,100 --> 00:20:36,500
okay? 
You should actually have a 

416
00:20:36,508 --> 00:20:40,100
replica for our database. 
If you'd actually use caching 

417
00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:42,900
skill your database, you should 
do many thing called a scale in 

418
00:20:42,900 --> 00:20:46,000
your vertical scaling and so on.
But in the end great 

419
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,100
optimization results will 
actually comes from leveraging 

420
00:20:49,100 --> 00:20:53,100
the knowledge of your business. 
Fixed by tell of N2 into your 

421
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:56,300
contributors, The Architects 
that you need to understand and 

422
00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:58,600
design for the current context 
better. 

423
00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:00,700
You understand the current 
requirements more optimization 

424
00:21:00,700 --> 00:21:04,200
exactly ago and Cody Cody, I 
hope that answers the question. 

425
00:21:04,700 --> 00:21:06,600
Yeah, yeah, definitely. 
I mean, this is great. 

426
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:08,300
Right? 
So for those listeners who are 

427
00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:10,500
in senior engineering 
leadership, maybe it's like head

428
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:14,000
of engineering VP of engineering
director of engineering or even 

429
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,300
sitio themselves that think 
their love GCF from your 

430
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:20,600
experience from history. 
I personally like your water And

431
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,700
how framework? 
So when you're a junior, you're 

432
00:21:22,700 --> 00:21:26,200
being told what and how as you 
go up, there told nothing. 

433
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:28,900
You didn't even know the water. 
He didn't even know the how and 

434
00:21:28,900 --> 00:21:31,200
you have to come up with both. 
So I think that's really 

435
00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:33,200
insightful for me throughout 
time. 

436
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,700
I'm sure in tokopedia or your 
journey, you've seen a lot in 

437
00:21:36,700 --> 00:21:40,200
property in particular you grew 
like an engineering from eighty 

438
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,200
to two thousand plus I guess 
right? 

439
00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,700
That's really a rapid kill. 
Maybe can you share some of the 

440
00:21:45,700 --> 00:21:49,200
growing pains or maybe the 
hiring challenging I called to 

441
00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,700
scale the team from? 
Small size to a bigger size, 

442
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:55,100
maybe some of the insights. 
You can share here probability 

443
00:21:55,100 --> 00:21:58,900
Mass Appeal from ATP to our two 
thousand people now as your 

444
00:21:58,900 --> 00:22:01,000
skill. 
I think we need to work on 

445
00:22:01,100 --> 00:22:03,700
revamping lot of the ways you 
work. 

446
00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,700
For example, your hiring process
will need to get rebound. 

447
00:22:06,900 --> 00:22:10,000
Onboarding process has to 
believe and and improve, from 

448
00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:13,100
time, to time as your team size 
increases and your cultural 

449
00:22:13,100 --> 00:22:15,800
integration process has to 
deliver why this is important is

450
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,900
because especially, you know, 
hyper-growth kind of phase when 

451
00:22:18,900 --> 00:22:21,300
you achieve higher, many people 
These people are coming with 

452
00:22:21,300 --> 00:22:25,200
their own background, their own 
field of work their own cultures

453
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,000
and we can be very different. 
And when I say culture culture 

454
00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:29,800
is basically a shared set of 
beliefs. 

455
00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:32,600
Now, how do you integrate them 
in your culture? 

456
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,900
Because this is a very important
part of been forgotten that end 

457
00:22:35,900 --> 00:22:38,600
of the day, unless you actually 
integrate them in your culture, 

458
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,700
get them to your values, your 
teams will be very 

459
00:22:41,700 --> 00:22:44,500
heterogeneous, they do not have 
the shared beliefs until the 

460
00:22:44,500 --> 00:22:46,100
critical requirement for a team 
work. 

461
00:22:46,300 --> 00:22:49,200
So you have to ensure that a 
more tactical party that 

462
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,800
standardization of the If you do
not focus on standardization and

463
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,200
do not have some governance in 
place, you might end up like 

464
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,700
being, there are 20 teams and 
they have been using drones tag.

465
00:22:58,900 --> 00:23:01,900
And that is okay, typical IG 
debate, both sides. 

466
00:23:01,900 --> 00:23:05,700
But I think it's not going to be
very beneficial for the team. 

467
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,000
Because I mean you cannot 
actually have sharing of the 

468
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:09,800
knowledge. 
You cannot have people moving 

469
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,600
from one Department to another 
and so on. 

470
00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,700
So a lot of things actually can 
break, sometimes it may also 

471
00:23:14,700 --> 00:23:16,100
happen. 
There is no governance in place 

472
00:23:16,100 --> 00:23:17,900
and people are just using 
different choices. 

473
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:20,600
And you have, for example, five 
different kind of cues in the 

474
00:23:20,700 --> 00:23:23,500
system 7 different kind of 
databases and that becomes 

475
00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:26,400
operational. 
I think disaster when I say 

476
00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,900
onboarding process, what I mean 
is that, for example, having a 

477
00:23:28,908 --> 00:23:32,100
clear documentation of War 
systems are in place how we 

478
00:23:32,100 --> 00:23:35,600
work, clear onboarding 
checklist, when I Engineer comes

479
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:38,200
out and leader comes, they 
already know what to do in my 

480
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,600
first few weeks, how to, 
actually familiarize myself on 

481
00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,000
this company is way of working 
also, having bootcamp kind of 

482
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:46,500
training. 
And this is a very useful thing 

483
00:23:46,500 --> 00:23:48,700
in tokopedia Vagabond. 
And there was like, a couple of 

484
00:23:48,700 --> 00:23:52,200
days of boot camp training for 
every Commander joins that 

485
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,500
basically sets them up for, 
okay, how we work, what is the 

486
00:23:55,500 --> 00:23:58,200
worst texts are? 
What our work product, who are 

487
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:01,700
our customers, what things we 
are building, and what our 

488
00:24:01,700 --> 00:24:05,300
values, our DNA wraps on. 
As you scale, another thing that

489
00:24:05,300 --> 00:24:08,300
I want to point out is that you 
cannot keep your organization 

490
00:24:08,300 --> 00:24:11,200
slack forever. 
When you start small - 

491
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,400
Engineers, they can all be 
reporting it to see to, it's 

492
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:14,800
fine. 
I mean, even that would like too

493
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,900
much but once it becomes like, 
200 300 and more, I think you 

494
00:24:18,900 --> 00:24:20,600
need to actually set our 
organization structure. 

495
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:23,800
ER, in place so that better 
management can actually happen 

496
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:25,600
for the team. 
Those are some things that I 

497
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,200
think is important when grow in 
the organization on the hiding. 

498
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,300
Question, for example, when I'm 
hiring Engineers, I look for 

499
00:24:33,300 --> 00:24:36,200
engineers who can emit coding is
important, right? 

500
00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:37,900
So, definitely must be able to 
code. 

501
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:39,700
They must know, they are hard 
skills. 

502
00:24:39,900 --> 00:24:42,100
So language is not important but
they must be able to 

503
00:24:42,100 --> 00:24:44,300
problem-solve. 
So that is one thing that I look

504
00:24:44,300 --> 00:24:48,400
for the second is that attitude,
this is a very critical thing. 

505
00:24:48,700 --> 00:24:51,500
There is always this discussion 
between Disco by the way. 

506
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,800
So if people do not have will 
and do not have a skill, of 

507
00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:59,400
course, each don't have that, 
but it's, they have a skill and 

508
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,000
they don't have a bill, then you
can hire them. 

509
00:25:02,500 --> 00:25:04,700
But because they have a skill 
did not have built, will have to

510
00:25:04,700 --> 00:25:06,700
motivate them. 
You need a leader who can 

511
00:25:06,700 --> 00:25:09,000
actually motivate them to 
actually have the will if 

512
00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:11,500
somebody has the bill but they 
don't have skill. 

513
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,600
It's an easier problem to solve 
in my opinion. 

514
00:25:13,700 --> 00:25:16,600
If they are base level than they
can always be up scared. 

515
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,400
You need to train them and so 
on. 

516
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,000
And if they have both skill and 
will, I mean I'm Raising you 

517
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,400
have a rockstar there. 
I recently told my team at Judo 

518
00:25:24,500 --> 00:25:28,700
what could Engineers qualities. 
Are it may sound a bit rhetoric.

519
00:25:28,900 --> 00:25:31,300
I feel that good Engineers. 
I'm not talking about 10x 

520
00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:33,600
engineer that used to be 
discussed on Pretoria. 

521
00:25:33,700 --> 00:25:36,500
So, I'm just that good engineer.
I think they should be 

522
00:25:36,500 --> 00:25:38,500
pessimists. 
They have three quality. 

523
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,600
So first is being pessimists, 
they should understand that. 

524
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:43,700
Whatever can go wrong, will go 
wrong someday. 

525
00:25:43,900 --> 00:25:46,800
They are basically people who 
believe in writing as rock-solid

526
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:49,400
software as possible, so they'll
probably go and check every 

527
00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,000
error, that is happening. 
Was that error is being written 

528
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,000
for some reason. 
You must actually handle it. 

529
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:58,000
And so on, I give an analogy to 
my 0 team for example, good 

530
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:01,300
Engineers are dual Indians who 
built Bridges, which can stand 

531
00:26:01,300 --> 00:26:03,200
there for hundreds and thousands
of years. 

532
00:26:03,500 --> 00:26:06,100
And that is because they have 
taken care of everything that 

533
00:26:06,100 --> 00:26:08,300
they can, that can go wrong. 
So they have taken care of 

534
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:09,800
foods. 
Can go wrong, will actually take

535
00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:11,600
a backup or this backup can go 
wrong. 

536
00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:13,300
Let me pick up back up for 
backup. 

537
00:26:13,700 --> 00:26:16,200
The second quality of a good 
Engineers they are also 

538
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,300
optimistic. 
They know that whatever they're 

539
00:26:18,300 --> 00:26:22,500
building will basically not only
Lisi the light of the day but 

540
00:26:22,500 --> 00:26:25,100
also grow in number of users 
that use it. 

541
00:26:25,400 --> 00:26:27,600
And hence I need to actually 
think about the architecture and

542
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,900
design. 
Very seriously, third thing is 

543
00:26:29,900 --> 00:26:34,000
that they are also realistic 
like pragmatic as in, yes, I 

544
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:35,400
know that. 
Okay, I want to build a perfect 

545
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,200
software, but there are all kind
of constraints here in the 

546
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,700
currents. 
So if my users are only 10,000 

547
00:26:41,700 --> 00:26:44,700
users, I should not go and try 
building a system for 10 million

548
00:26:44,700 --> 00:26:46,100
users. 
Yeah, it does not make sense 

549
00:26:46,100 --> 00:26:49,000
from the economics perspective 
so I think originals are those 

550
00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:50,500
people who actually take all 
these things. 

551
00:26:50,700 --> 00:26:53,100
Conservation. 
Well, really interesting 

552
00:26:53,100 --> 00:26:55,100
perspective, on how you hire 
Engineers. 

553
00:26:55,100 --> 00:26:58,400
I like the will and skill 
attributes and also, sometimes 

554
00:26:58,500 --> 00:27:01,500
like contradictory right? 
Good Engineers pessimistic but 

555
00:27:01,500 --> 00:27:03,900
also optimistic and also 
realistic. 

556
00:27:04,100 --> 00:27:07,200
So it's like a different 
Spectrum all together, how about

557
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,100
specifically for engineering, 
maybe managers of meat managers 

558
00:27:11,100 --> 00:27:14,100
or the leaders are there 
anything different on top of 

559
00:27:14,100 --> 00:27:17,600
what you have shared just now. 
So for ensuring manager and 

560
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,300
leaders parents one entire new 
dimension that goes On top of it

561
00:27:21,300 --> 00:27:23,300
one, is your 70 days? 
Are important. 

562
00:27:23,500 --> 00:27:26,300
Engineering leaders should not 
shy away from DJ's. 

563
00:27:26,300 --> 00:27:29,300
I've seen that happen, often 
Orion my career Engineering 

564
00:27:29,300 --> 00:27:31,600
Management is a very difficult 
job because I had an engineer, I

565
00:27:31,608 --> 00:27:34,600
think, when you come for work 
and of the days where you've 

566
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,800
used from work, you feel very 
satisfied. 

567
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,200
Why salt? 
So many bugs, I wrote that 

568
00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:41,200
algorithm. 
I improve this performance and 

569
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,900
so on, ensuring manager does not
have this kind of pleasure, they

570
00:27:44,900 --> 00:27:48,200
come to the job and of the DVD 
Austin says, or what did I 

571
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:50,400
accomplish today? 
I just did this meeting that we 

572
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,800
did, So on but those meetings 
are very important when I look 

573
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:55,800
for Asian leaders. 
So you can managers. 

574
00:27:56,100 --> 00:27:59,400
I am looking number one that 
they understand this motivation.

575
00:27:59,500 --> 00:28:02,800
What is the purpose? 
So they do their management well

576
00:28:02,900 --> 00:28:06,000
which means ensuring that Park 
is being managed at. 

577
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,200
The same time, people are being 
taken care of. 

578
00:28:08,500 --> 00:28:11,700
And at the same time, there is a
long-term Vision that is in 

579
00:28:11,700 --> 00:28:13,600
their mind. 
Another thing that they must do 

580
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,100
with the kind of become the 
guards of the values that 

581
00:28:17,100 --> 00:28:19,500
company believes in so different
company that you have different 

582
00:28:19,500 --> 00:28:22,200
value systems. 
Ensuring that we are aligned 

583
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,600
toward a common goal. 
So those are some of the things 

584
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:27,000
that I look for. 
When hiring heaters people 

585
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,100
aspect is 180 days are 
important. 

586
00:28:29,100 --> 00:28:32,800
And they must know how to manage
that ambiguity, When you mention

587
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:36,000
about guarding the values and 
goals and you touch on a bit. 

588
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,100
Also, just now about building a 
culture that aligns together 

589
00:28:39,100 --> 00:28:42,200
with the scaling of the people, 
because when you hire a lot, 

590
00:28:42,300 --> 00:28:45,000
obviously the way of working the
perspectives. 

591
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,500
The values are different from. 
All those new joiners. 

592
00:28:47,900 --> 00:28:49,600
Maybe, let's move on to the 
culture, right? 

593
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,600
How do you actually Align, try 
to align people to think the 

594
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,700
same value, the same ways of 
looking at the same. 

595
00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:59,700
This can be challenging when you
grow into a hundreds thousands 

596
00:28:59,700 --> 00:29:02,300
of Engineers, right? 
Maybe she has some tips on this,

597
00:29:03,100 --> 00:29:05,900
whatever you before I drop to 
answer your question. 

598
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,500
One thing that comes to my mind 
tokopedia, that would be 

599
00:29:08,500 --> 00:29:12,400
successful in generating more 
and more leaders who crave 

600
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,400
organically from within the 
organization. 

601
00:29:14,700 --> 00:29:16,800
So if we can grow from within 
the organization, actually 

602
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,600
definitely grow. 
And there is no glass ceiling 

603
00:29:18,900 --> 00:29:21,800
irrespective of which geography 
are Um, from what background 

604
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:23,900
you're coming from. 
It is always the career path for

605
00:29:23,900 --> 00:29:26,900
every single individual in the 
organization, so that helps a 

606
00:29:26,900 --> 00:29:28,800
lot. 
But again, it takes a lot of 

607
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:30,600
effort. 
It takes a lot of coaching, 

608
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,000
trust-building those 
competencies, and so on. 

609
00:29:33,500 --> 00:29:36,400
So coming to your question on 
the culture, every organization 

610
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:39,800
had a mission of region, every 
mention actually has a certain 

611
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,500
set of values. 
So living, those values is 

612
00:29:42,500 --> 00:29:45,500
supercritical, even as an 
industry leader, you must ensure

613
00:29:45,500 --> 00:29:48,100
that number one task that you 
have to do, is your living those

614
00:29:48,100 --> 00:29:49,900
values. 
You're talking about those 

615
00:29:49,900 --> 00:29:52,100
values. 
Every opportunity that you get 

616
00:29:52,100 --> 00:29:54,700
to talk to your team, it should 
actually become kind of a 

617
00:29:54,700 --> 00:29:57,500
day-to-day Affairs. 
This helps a lot in alignment. 

618
00:29:57,800 --> 00:29:59,400
Whenever there are 
decision-making. 

619
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,600
Probably you can align to your 
values and see, and make the 

620
00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,900
decision easily, then be less 
confusion. 

621
00:30:04,100 --> 00:30:06,400
For example, Google is actually 
known for their values of c, 

622
00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:09,200
transparency and Innovation. 
Amazon is known for their back 

623
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,500
protein leadership principles, 
and they actually become kind of

624
00:30:12,500 --> 00:30:15,200
a guiding force. 
A Guiding Light for you for 

625
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:17,700
making notice here. 
So that is one the second 

626
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:20,800
building, a strong technology 
are requires you to I actually 

627
00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:24,100
have a focus on Tech as a core 
part of building products. 

628
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,400
That means people realize that 
those Tech platforms are very 

629
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,300
important, you are not taking 
shortcuts, but if you are taking

630
00:30:30,300 --> 00:30:32,700
shortcuts, you actually relying 
on your Tech leaders to go and 

631
00:30:32,700 --> 00:30:34,700
solve those problems. 
And you get that support from 

632
00:30:34,700 --> 00:30:37,600
entire nation. 
S is I mean enabling your 

633
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:41,100
Architects or I see is to become
kind of guards of your design 

634
00:30:41,100 --> 00:30:44,400
and architecture when I'm seeing
that it does not only mean that 

635
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,300
I could you give them the 
responsibility for becoming the 

636
00:30:46,300 --> 00:30:48,800
guards. 
You also make them accountable 

637
00:30:48,900 --> 00:30:51,200
and ensure that this is publicly
Share. 

638
00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,000
So the business and product, you
just know that they have to 

639
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,200
ensure this aspect, then 
celebrating not only product 

640
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,700
releases, but also technology 
improvements, which may not show

641
00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:04,200
up directly, but are always 
adding to the customer. 

642
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:06,400
Experience is also very 
important. 

643
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,600
So some of those are the things 
that category on culture aspect.

644
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,800
One, more thing is innovation, 
we find many companies talking 

645
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:16,900
about Innovation a lot. 
I feel that Innovation can not 

646
00:31:16,900 --> 00:31:20,200
happen until you tell every tree
go and prepare and ground for 

647
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,200
innovation. 
Asian, this Innovation is you 

648
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:26,400
are motivating your engineers to
go and find our invent a better 

649
00:31:26,500 --> 00:31:29,200
way of solving a problem. 
The problem has been there, but 

650
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:30,700
it's time to let you find a 
better solution. 

651
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,800
A more novel solution to solve 
the problem. 

652
00:31:33,100 --> 00:31:36,200
Now, this cannot happen if they 
are actually rushing from one 

653
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:39,100
screen to another Sprint. 
Barely able to finish the rest 

654
00:31:39,100 --> 00:31:41,900
of the points. 
So they have to find some slack 

655
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,100
to your team. 
Should actually kind of achieve 

656
00:31:44,100 --> 00:31:45,700
that state when they are 
shipping. 

657
00:31:45,700 --> 00:31:48,100
So many products, they're taking
care of their Tech day and they 

658
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:50,400
still have quite some time to 
kind of be at themselves. 

659
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,300
Dude, some tree thinking that is
the only way to actually Foster 

660
00:31:53,300 --> 00:31:56,600
that process of innovation. 
So sometimes these Innovations 

661
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,300
can be challenging, especially 
when you grow very rapidly from 

662
00:32:00,300 --> 00:32:03,500
a start-up to become a scale up.
So everything is about product 

663
00:32:03,500 --> 00:32:06,300
features, building more things 
for the products and business. 

664
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,200
But yeah, I mean, select time is
definitely probably a luxury for

665
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,400
some of these companies. 
Thanks for reminding that 

666
00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,200
sometimes when you want to breed
Innovation, you will need to 

667
00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,000
deliberately prepare the ground 
their environment and the 

668
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:20,800
culture. 
So that people are I'm not 

669
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,400
afraid to give it a try. 
The key is probably select. 

670
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,000
I'm not just focus on just doing
delivering work. 

671
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:28,900
Also, another thing that I want 
to touch on, you mention about 

672
00:32:28,900 --> 00:32:31,900
governance, standardization of 
tech stack and things like that.

673
00:32:31,900 --> 00:32:35,300
So maybe there are some lessons 
learned from you what kind of 

674
00:32:35,300 --> 00:32:38,600
engineering processes or maybe 
some kind of governance that 

675
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:40,600
people like senior engineer 
leader. 

676
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:44,100
They should be putting a 
discipline on so we touch on a 

677
00:32:44,100 --> 00:32:45,800
little bit. 
But maybe, are there any other 

678
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,600
areas for engineering leaders? 
Want things to standardize or 

679
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:51,700
govern in terms? 
Engineering Process and best 

680
00:32:51,700 --> 00:32:54,000
practice. 
I think I meant a bunch of 

681
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,400
solutions for engine leaders. 
I think governance is very 

682
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,600
important, especially on the 
sterilization system, to blend 

683
00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,600
it very well from early on 
centralizing. 

684
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:04,100
Some of the things we're 
actually help. 

685
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,400
I mean this may come with some 
pain or team wants to try this 

686
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,600
fancy new database and then also
our risk items that will you 

687
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,700
actually become close to the new
ideas, new developments at all, 

688
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:18,200
so it has to be balanced and 
there has to be a process. 

689
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:21,100
So it's not about closing 
something, but it Either just 

690
00:33:21,100 --> 00:33:23,800
building a process around. 
How will you introduce our new 

691
00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,900
technology in the stack? 
What are the pros and cons of 

692
00:33:26,900 --> 00:33:29,400
that? 
Do you have enough expertise on 

693
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:32,200
those technology or you think 
that you can build enough 

694
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,900
expertise in time to come? 
If you actually go through that 

695
00:33:34,900 --> 00:33:38,600
process, I think we'll actually 
have less appeals in future so 

696
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,100
that is what I believe but then 
there are a couple of other 

697
00:33:41,100 --> 00:33:44,200
things that are helpful for 
engineers are emotional from my 

698
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,600
own experience. 
In fact, as I graduated from 

699
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,900
tokopedia and received a, thank 
you, note from one of my 

700
00:33:49,900 --> 00:33:52,400
leaders. 
And he also shared some feedback

701
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,900
for me. 
Those feedbacks were so apt 

702
00:33:55,100 --> 00:33:57,600
because they were also in my 
notebook and the Sea back for 

703
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,100
myself, for example, he did this
year making. 

704
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,100
Sometimes you get into that 
conundrum that I want to make 

705
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,300
the right decision about the 
right decision is not so easy to

706
00:34:06,300 --> 00:34:09,300
actually come to and you 
basically delay that until I get

707
00:34:09,300 --> 00:34:12,400
to know what the right thing is,
I just delayed, I think it hurts

708
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,300
more than it helps here, as 
ancient leader, and lot of 

709
00:34:15,300 --> 00:34:17,800
people may get blocked on you. 
They will actually be waiting 

710
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:20,400
for you to actually take a call 
and maybe you are just kind of 

711
00:34:20,500 --> 00:34:23,400
Of not arriving at a decision 
and that is hurting our nation, 

712
00:34:23,500 --> 00:34:26,100
not helping him. 
So I will set is actually for a 

713
00:34:26,107 --> 00:34:28,199
genius and it is a note to 
myself as well. 

714
00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:31,400
Take this years sooner than 
later, I mean every DCM rack, we

715
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,500
have pros and cons but taking 
the decision will only fast in 

716
00:34:34,500 --> 00:34:36,699
the process can always go and 
learn. 

717
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:39,900
The only thing that will be an 
exception to this is a fatter 

718
00:34:39,900 --> 00:34:42,500
Vision but if that is the final 
decision that you should 

719
00:34:42,500 --> 00:34:45,699
actually go and reach out to 
other stakeholders and take help

720
00:34:45,699 --> 00:34:47,000
from others. 
The third one. 

721
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:50,900
Is that not asking enough 
questions the cost of Peanut 

722
00:34:50,900 --> 00:34:53,800
wrong. 
Question is literally zero in a 

723
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,199
worst-case. 
Equal May laugh at you or they 

724
00:34:56,199 --> 00:34:58,500
can basically erect you they can
see that. 

725
00:34:58,500 --> 00:35:00,300
Okay. 
That question is invalid and so 

726
00:35:00,300 --> 00:35:03,300
on but that is the zero cost. 
We should not take ourselves too

727
00:35:03,300 --> 00:35:06,500
seriously but the cost of snot 
asking questions, especially 

728
00:35:06,500 --> 00:35:08,600
important questions is very 
high. 

729
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,500
So we should definitely be 
asking more questions than and 

730
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,600
not asking enough questions. 
Last point that I want to share 

731
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:19,400
that sometimes we underestimate 
what can happen by having the 

732
00:35:19,500 --> 00:35:22,200
non works. 
Setting for building vegetable 

733
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,800
out team and getting the team 
out for lunch or a dinner or out

734
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,700
paying whatever. 
So sometimes, what happens is 

735
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:32,000
that your one-on-ones? 
However, good, they are, they're

736
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,900
not able to capture the trust as
much as it is non but setting, 

737
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,200
those are like, bunch of things 
that I would like to suggest 

738
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:41,700
based on my journey so far. 
So I think I like the 

739
00:35:41,700 --> 00:35:44,700
perspective of not delaying 
decision too long, especially in

740
00:35:44,700 --> 00:35:46,700
engineering. 
Love things are like, what you 

741
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:47,700
mentioned? 
Thank death. 

742
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:50,400
He was just lying around waiting
for things to happen. 

743
00:35:50,500 --> 00:35:53,800
Day letting normally when the 
day happens, is probably too 

744
00:35:53,800 --> 00:35:56,800
late and it will be quite 
chaotic from the engineering 

745
00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:59,300
point of view. 
Thanks for sharing that one last

746
00:35:59,300 --> 00:36:02,200
aspect that I want to touch on 
from your expertise and 

747
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,000
experience as well. 
It's about engineering 

748
00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,300
productivity. 
So we talked a little bit about 

749
00:36:06,300 --> 00:36:09,300
engineering productivity like 
when you grow and scale we built

750
00:36:09,300 --> 00:36:12,400
a lot of features. 
How do you ensure things are 

751
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,300
still moving fast because what 
tends to happen as the 

752
00:36:15,300 --> 00:36:18,300
organization grows is that 
engineering velocity is deemed 

753
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:21,400
to be slower and slower maybe 
from In your experience. 

754
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:24,600
What key things that you 
probably control baby. 

755
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,800
You improve in terms of how 
engineering can be always, 

756
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,600
delivering values in the 
constant stable manner, I need 

757
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,900
to answer that question. 
I mean one I personally do not 

758
00:36:35,900 --> 00:36:40,300
believe even measuring developer
velocity of productivity and the

759
00:36:40,300 --> 00:36:43,300
number I don't think there's any
way we can actually assign a 

760
00:36:43,308 --> 00:36:46,900
number to people that are oh you
are productive at this number at

761
00:36:46,900 --> 00:36:49,500
so that that is very hard. 
And I think it's a futile. 

762
00:36:49,500 --> 00:36:52,400
Exercise honest. 
We can definitely find out ways 

763
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,400
to actually move faster. 
As I said earlier, speed, 

764
00:36:55,500 --> 00:36:57,600
quality and activities. 
Those are the things that we 

765
00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:01,600
want to aim like in tokopedia 
Also earlier when we adopted 

766
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,600
some kind of organization 
structure, the way we are Mega 

767
00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:06,600
ourselves, it was based on type 
system. 

768
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,000
It is originally coming from 
Spotify. 

769
00:37:09,300 --> 00:37:11,900
They are tribes their chapters 
and they actually work together 

770
00:37:11,900 --> 00:37:15,300
as many startups so every tribal
actually consists of 

771
00:37:15,300 --> 00:37:18,100
representatives from Tech Team, 
the product team and the 

772
00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:19,600
business need and they work 
together. 

773
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,600
So it comes a mini starter which
has a similar meaning Bishop to 

774
00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:26,800
launch the product that you're 
working towards they work in a 

775
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:29,800
fashion and they can adopt a 
process from a Dye World 

776
00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:32,300
Backstrom. 
That is one way to actually go 

777
00:37:32,300 --> 00:37:36,300
and put in place a very 
deterministic of predictable set

778
00:37:36,300 --> 00:37:39,500
up for the teams to actually 
function in so that has worked 

779
00:37:39,500 --> 00:37:42,600
well in my understanding, most 
of the time when I found that 

780
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,700
there are released delays, I 
think one of the root causes 

781
00:37:45,700 --> 00:37:48,400
always communication, it's not 
complicated well enough. 

782
00:37:48,700 --> 00:37:52,000
So communication is one thing 
that To be explored at a 

783
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,500
significant priority. 
Now, when I say communication, 

784
00:37:54,500 --> 00:37:56,200
there are two kinds of 
permutations one is a verbal 

785
00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:58,200
communication. 
It is important, but it should 

786
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,100
be generally written 
communication. 

787
00:38:00,100 --> 00:38:03,600
That should be mandated, as you 
go toward that, you'll probably 

788
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:06,700
find that lot of these problems 
of misunderstandings. 

789
00:38:06,700 --> 00:38:10,100
They go away one company that to
I respect a lot and we can 

790
00:38:10,100 --> 00:38:12,400
actually all borrow a lot from 
is Amazon. 

791
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,000
In that respect, they have set 
up writing culture, which is 

792
00:38:16,100 --> 00:38:18,700
worth emulating for most of the 
companies. 

793
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,400
So I've spoken to Amazon people 
from Seattle from India and I 

794
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:26,300
find similar kind of culture. 
So the me down really has done a

795
00:38:26,300 --> 00:38:29,300
great job in establishing that 
culture across the geographies 

796
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,200
and then how can you actually 
make it further better? 

797
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,200
Automate like really things that
can be automated must be 

798
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,400
automated as soon as possible in
tokopedia. 

799
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,400
In fact there is a team itself. 
Visit engineering productivity, 

800
00:38:40,500 --> 00:38:44,100
that works on building tools 
that can actually help us, have 

801
00:38:44,100 --> 00:38:46,800
a sustained level of quality, 
whenever we are making 

802
00:38:46,800 --> 00:38:49,900
religious, which is test 
automation, but also having 

803
00:38:49,900 --> 00:38:53,100
taste Mr. Automation, to ensure 
that you are actually reliable 

804
00:38:53,100 --> 00:38:56,600
at a higher load, then there is 
a tooling for developers to be 

805
00:38:56,700 --> 00:38:59,000
more productive. 
Thanks for sharing some of the 

806
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,200
tips. 
So, automate like crazy, there 

807
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,200
are so many things that can be 
automated these days. 

808
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,000
There are so many tools already 
built. 

809
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:07,700
In fact offered as a service 
product or maybe open source 

810
00:39:07,700 --> 00:39:09,500
tools. 
So yeah, you should probably 

811
00:39:09,500 --> 00:39:12,500
always find innovative ways on 
introducing automation. 

812
00:39:12,700 --> 00:39:16,700
So maybe throughout this journey
or any kind of mistakes or 

813
00:39:16,700 --> 00:39:19,900
expensive lessons that you have 
learned along the way if you can

814
00:39:19,900 --> 00:39:22,000
share. 
Um is there anything that you 

815
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:25,600
can share my knowledge? 
I already shared that as part of

816
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,600
my equation two integrators, 
expensive Mystic, highly 

817
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:31,400
regarded that pulley. 
Other delayed decision making it

818
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:32,900
has been pretty extensive 
writing. 

819
00:39:33,200 --> 00:39:35,800
We could have just taken a call 
and we'll see that bad and 

820
00:39:35,800 --> 00:39:39,700
beating for that as you become a
reader and especially working in

821
00:39:39,700 --> 00:39:42,900
an organization which has 
multiple functions communication

822
00:39:42,900 --> 00:39:46,500
as the another key that you need
to get a hold on for being more 

823
00:39:46,500 --> 00:39:50,300
effective possible in 2018 to be
a started as shopping Festival. 

824
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,700
And this was first time us doing
it in Indonesia and there was no

825
00:39:54,700 --> 00:39:56,700
other company doing it. 
This was basically like a 

826
00:39:56,707 --> 00:40:00,400
replica of single stay in China.
You're going live on tv.we 

827
00:40:00,900 --> 00:40:04,500
basically prepared our systems 
to scale well and be estimated 

828
00:40:04,500 --> 00:40:07,400
that over a Target would be like
10 x 5 x 10 times. 

829
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,900
What we receive at the current 
Peak, the tasks that we got 

830
00:40:10,900 --> 00:40:12,900
during the event, was more not 
an X. 

831
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,500
So our systems were playing and 
I was like really in shock later

832
00:40:17,500 --> 00:40:20,200
on when we did the root cause 
analysis of that mosquitoes. 

833
00:40:20,400 --> 00:40:23,800
A bunch of things including one 
was Miss estimation, of course. 

834
00:40:24,100 --> 00:40:26,800
And since then, of course teams 
have started working or how can 

835
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:28,700
we better estimate, the business
impact? 

836
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,500
What kind of traffic will be 
attacked? 

837
00:40:30,500 --> 00:40:34,100
When we do this or that? 
The second was busy having more 

838
00:40:34,100 --> 00:40:36,200
and more transparent 
communication between product 

839
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,800
business and technology that has
very beautiful thing in 

840
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:40,800
tokopedia. 
Now that I see all the teams 

841
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:42,800
actually said together in one 
meeting and there's one 

842
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:45,800
competition happening, not of 
processes were introduced after 

843
00:40:45,800 --> 00:40:48,000
that. 
Example, we introduced the 

844
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,300
regular kind of on load testing,
which is called bien. 

845
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,600
There. 
He would have for it on auto 

846
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,400
scaling and he was often 
automation that happened. 

847
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,500
Those are some of the Lemmings. 
And since then, 2019 2020 2021 

848
00:41:00,500 --> 00:41:04,200
20th to, we have done this same 
event at the same scale or 

849
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:06,100
larger scale. 
And we have not face any 

850
00:41:06,100 --> 00:41:07,900
trouble. 
Thanks to the leadership at 

851
00:41:07,900 --> 00:41:10,500
Wikipedia. 
Well, couldn't imagine myself as

852
00:41:10,500 --> 00:41:13,200
well like when you predicted 
then X but it turned out to be 

853
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:14,900
more than x. 
So let's follow. 

854
00:41:14,900 --> 00:41:17,900
It's really challenging. 
It's a good problem to have all 

855
00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:19,900
this. 
You saw at the end of the day, I

856
00:41:19,900 --> 00:41:22,100
will kill you. 
We spoke to a leader that we're 

857
00:41:22,100 --> 00:41:25,000
so sorry when we miss predicted 
but just put some from 

858
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,300
depressive or no worries. 
I'm so excited because this 

859
00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,300
tells us how big the opportunity
is to serve people in The 

860
00:41:30,300 --> 00:41:32,400
Innovation. 
Thanks for the plug because 

861
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,000
happening during this kind of 
like crisis situation, the 

862
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,200
empathy from leaders, right? 
Not blame for kind of culture. 

863
00:41:38,200 --> 00:41:40,600
I think that's really key. 
So my daughter she's been a 

864
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:42,200
pleasant conversation 
unfortunately. 

865
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,100
Due to time, we have to wrap up 
pretty soon. 

866
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:47,500
But I have one last question 
that I normally ask for all my 

867
00:41:47,500 --> 00:41:50,300
guests, which is to share your 
version of three. 

868
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,500
The leadership wisdom think of 
it like advice or maybe 

869
00:41:53,500 --> 00:41:55,900
something that you want to tell 
to the audience from your 

870
00:41:55,900 --> 00:41:59,500
journey or your experience. 
So I decided she told my leader 

871
00:41:59,500 --> 00:42:01,600
set, you do as well. 
These are all the things that I 

872
00:42:01,607 --> 00:42:04,400
learned over time. 
The first one is that done? 

873
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:07,200
Is better than perfect. 
Don't wait for the perfect 

874
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,000
solution. 
So, go perfect. 

875
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,400
Is the enemy of the good. 
There's another way you can put,

876
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:13,100
it s. 
Is that a more? 

877
00:42:13,100 --> 00:42:16,000
You sweat less? 
You bleed, during peacetime 

878
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,000
generally. 
People think the, oh, we can 

879
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,200
actually deliver tank. 
There nothing is. 

880
00:42:20,300 --> 00:42:22,700
Breaking right now will actually
pay it later. 

881
00:42:23,100 --> 00:42:25,700
That is not the approach that 
you should take because one day,

882
00:42:25,700 --> 00:42:29,100
they be time of judgment. 
Karma is a bitch there it will 

883
00:42:29,100 --> 00:42:30,800
bite you when you it hurts, you 
the most. 

884
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:34,100
So instead of that, especially 
when you have some peace time, 

885
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:37,100
if you focus on strengthening 
your back home, the third one is

886
00:42:37,100 --> 00:42:39,900
that teamwork is the ultimate 
competitive Advantage. 

887
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,300
This is what I've seen time. 
And again, the feeding teams, 

888
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,300
even if it is not comprising of 
a layers, they will win against 

889
00:42:47,300 --> 00:42:49,200
people are team. 
If they have better teamwork 

890
00:42:49,200 --> 00:42:52,400
that I've seen time and again, 
So use find this in sports, you 

891
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,500
find it and Destroy them. 
Teamwork is the foundation of 

892
00:42:55,500 --> 00:42:58,500
all the success team were a not 
come without pressed. 

893
00:42:58,500 --> 00:43:00,700
So that's why I believe that. 
Especially he said you'd as they

894
00:43:00,700 --> 00:43:03,200
must actually work on 
establishing a trust amongst 

895
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:06,200
their team members and aligning 
them towards one common goal. 

896
00:43:06,400 --> 00:43:09,100
So those three things are very. 
Thank you. 

897
00:43:09,100 --> 00:43:10,800
I like the way you explained it,
right? 

898
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:14,600
So done is definitely better 
than perfect sometimes Engineers

899
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,300
tend to want to build things 
perfectly right there. 

900
00:43:17,300 --> 00:43:19,600
You will think about all 
scalability patterns 

901
00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:22,300
architecture. 
Today's complex it microservices

902
00:43:22,300 --> 00:43:24,700
in hundreds. 
So sometimes we should not go 

903
00:43:24,700 --> 00:43:27,700
into that perfect mode, just 
build good enough for the 

904
00:43:27,700 --> 00:43:30,600
current context, it's been a 
pleasant conversation. - if 

905
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:33,800
people want to continue this 
conversation with you, is there 

906
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,600
place to reach out or maybe 
interact with you on mine, 

907
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,300
whatever they are. 
I'm inaudible on Twitter and on 

908
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,700
LinkedIn. 
How can I share that with you? 

909
00:43:43,300 --> 00:43:45,300
Yeah I'll put it in the show 
notes later on though Lee. 

910
00:43:45,700 --> 00:43:48,300
So yeah thanks again - for 
spending your time in this 

911
00:43:48,300 --> 00:43:50,200
podcast recording. 
I really enjoyed. 

912
00:43:50,300 --> 00:43:52,400
This composition. 
Hope you feel the same. 

913
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:55,700
Good luck for your next venture.
Thank you so much. 

914
00:43:55,700 --> 00:43:58,400
Thanks for having me here. 
Don't be talking to you a good 

915
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,400
conversation. 
Thank you for listening to this 

916
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,800
episode and for staying, right 
until the end if you highly 

917
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:09,200
enjoyed it. 
I would appreciate if you share 

918
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,600
it with your friends and 
colleagues who you think would 

919
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:14,000
also benefit from listening to 
this episode. 

920
00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:17,000
And if you're new to the 
podcast, make sure to subscribe 

921
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and leave me your valuable 
review and feedback. 

922
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,200
It helps me a lot. 
In order to grow this podcast 

923
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,300
better. 
You can also find the full show 

924
00:44:24,300 --> 00:44:27,900
notes of this conversation on 
the episode page, at Tech Legion

925
00:44:27,900 --> 00:44:31,600
l.f website, including the full 
transcript, With interesting 

926
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,600
quotes and links to the 
resources mentioned, from the 

927
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:37,400
conversation. 
And lastly, make sure to 

928
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subscribe to the shows mailing 
list on pack leader. 

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No dot f to get notified for any
future episodes. 

930
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Stay tuned for the next 
technology. 

931
00:44:45,300 --> 00:44:48,100
No episode. 
And until then goodbye.