On this episode, we'll hear from former executive director of the
Disinformation Governance Board for the United States.
One of the most important things for me when I was going through
the worst of the online abuse that I experienced is the fact
that I had a community behind me.
And that's not something that just crops up overnight.
You don't just happen into it. It was something that I built
pretty deliberately, and I did that by supporting other women.
Other people whose work that I saw saw whether they were in my
field, in an adjacent field, whether they were journalists.
If I, for instance, saw breaking news in Ukraine and I wanted to
share an article about it, I would look for a female
journalist to share. Because we know from studies
that women get retweeted, 50% less than men get retweeted.
For instance, there's only 30% of the of users on Reddit are
women. So like, we need to, we need to
gas each other up and amplify each other and that leads to
friendship ships. A lot of my kind of people who
are in my closest circles are people I met on Twitter, and a
lot of them are women. So making sure you're
cultivating that community so that if you are having problems
on online, you're not just relying on your family and
friends who might be well-intentioned but might not
get the Internet to the same extent you do that is so
important having that support network.
And then the final thing that I would say also, and this is for
men and women who might be listening to you, is if you see
bad behavior happening online, a report, it that does still
matter. It sends, you know, signals to
the platforms that a certain account is behaving in a way
that is potentially against the community standards.
But B, think about saying something.
And that can happen in one of two ways.
You can say something directly to the person who's behaving
badly, like, hey, this is not OK, what you're doing.
And that might make people stop in their tracks and say like, oh
wait a second, people are realizing that I'm being an
asshole. Or you can also send words of
support to the person who is being attacked.
And that really matters as well, because it it it means that you
know, you know you've got people who are in your corner.
And that matters so much when when you just feel like all of
this horrible stuff is coming your way, to know that there are
people who value you and value your input and value your
personhood. So those are three big tips that
I think go beyond the obvious, but they they are so helpful
when you are the person navigating a sea of abuse
online. That was Nina Jankowitz, you're
listening to On Cam Ready. On this episode, we have so much
to talk about. But first, a really quick
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OK guys, so check that out. It's called Riverside.
As I mentioned, Nina Jankowitz is the former Executive Director
of the Disinformation Governance Board of the United States.
You may recognize her from appearances on MSNBCCNN and
other outlets. Some of you may remember her
from when she appeared on TikTok singing a Mary Poppins song
about disinformation, and then that video got used all over the
Internet. She actually wound up filing a
lawsuit against one Fox a defamation lawsuit.
It's something important to discuss, and we'll make sure we
bring that up with her. And now here's Nina and Nina's
with us. Now, Nina, why don't you give us
a little update? What have you been up to?
Oh, I'm working on a lot now, Jamie.
I am working on 1/3 book that is about kind of a new civil
resistance pact for the digital age, how we all get involved in
politics and these really vitriolic, polarized times.
And I've got a new organization that I'll be able to say more
about in a couple of weeks, but it's about protecting the
information space ahead of our very, you know, pivotal
election. You know, it's so important and
it's so great to have a a female out front talking about
disinformation. And I, you know, I talked about
your books in the intro. But what really resonates with a
lot of people listening is how how much you've been able to
accomplish the fact that you're now on your third book, you've
stayed so niche focused, you've become such an expert on this
topic. You know, whenever you're
preparing for all of your media hits, you know, how do you
really stay laser focused to provide such tremendous value on
networks like MSNBCCNN, you name it?
Sure. I think one of the things that
I've learned, particularly for cable news is that these
interviews are really short most of the time, unless you have the
luxury of of doing like a long Sunday show interview, right?
You're you're talking about 5 minutes Max.
And a lot of those hosts are pretty Gabby, so they're going
to take up a lot of the time. So you need to be focused on
three points that your audience can understand.
So I always try to write those down, even if it's just in the
30 seconds before, you know, we're on Cam.
And. And and that really helps me
make sure that I hit those points and that if I get a
question that I don't necessarily know how to answer,
I'm able to pivot back to those points.
And the other thing that helps me do is make sure that it's
accessible, right, Because a lot of the stuff that I deal with is
pretty technical. A lot of people say, oh,
disinformation or cybersecurity or some of these things.
You know, these are things that I don't really understand.
And by keeping it to those three points, I'm able to really say
these are, you know, things that you can understand.
This is how I'm making it accessible for you.
The. Listener I love that whenever
you're asked to be on a show, do you find that they find you
online, or are you pitching them?
Do you have a group behind putting you out there?
Really. It's really interesting.
You know, I had a guy, an older guy like 55 year old man come up
to me probably in like 2018 or 2019 when I was doing a lot of
hits, especially as we were headed toward the 2020 election. 00:06:46,600 And he was like it was your PR
company and I was like you're looking at her and I changed
that. I that's been the same for me
this entire time. I would say I especially, you
know, from about 2020 to 2022, I was doing a lot of writing and
that translated into a lot of TV hits and and other media hits.
Things have, I would say, tanked a little bit since I resigned
from from DHS. And that's that's twofold,
right. Obviously some people in the
media ecosystem trashed me to the extent where I think people
only remember that when they think of my name.
And that has toxified me a little bit.
And you know, I am navigating not only that situation but
being a new mom. And so my baby was born three
weeks after I resigned from DHS and I took some time off,
understandably going through a traumatic experience.
So navigating life as a new parent and so getting back into
that ecosystem has been really difficult.
And I'm working on different things now and so I'm not
writing as much and that that has proved a little bit, a
little bit hard to get back in there.
And so it's something I'm still out there for producers who are
watching, right. I'm still an expert on Russia.
I'm still an expert on Ukraine. I'm still an expert on on, you
know, tech policy and social media.
I happen to be talking a lot about online abuse and things
like that right now. Deep fake porn, artificial
intelligence, I'm experts in all of those things too.
But it's it can be really hard to kind of assert your
expertise. But I was really lucky for a
time because everything that I was an expert in was right at
the top of the news. I was writing a lot about it.
Twitter also really helped. And I just want to take a moment
to say rest in peace because when I was out there tweeting, a
lot of producers would see things, editors would see things
and Commission me to write pieces.
And it's kind of the circle, this kind of not even a vicious
circle, a self enforcing circle when you get out there.
So, so it's been a little bit difficult, I'm not going to lie,
but but I still love doing any media that comes my way because
it allows me to connect with new and different audiences.
Yes, and there's so much to unpack in this response.
But I just want to start off by saying she is the prime example
of what I say all of you thought leaders listening should try to
be like. And here's why.
As you heard she said, she's putting herself out there,
tweeting, writing, and she's getting attention from the press
by putting her expertise on display online.
By just doing that, you can really start to attract, right?
And she has proven that over and over again.
It's all about building that community.
I mean, let's focus on that for a second.
Like, when you started to tweet or when you started to write,
what really kept you going? Was it the passion of it, the
topic? Or like, what did you how did
you essentially figure out? OK, I'm on to something.
I need to start writing about this on a regular basis.
Or tweeting. Or yeah.
For me, it was very focused on where I was in my life.
So when I really started writing, I was living in
Ukraine. It was 2016 and 2017.
The topic of Russian interference was so, like,
present to so many people. And I was living it right.
I was in Kiev, I was working with the Ministry of Foreign
Affairs. There.
I saw a lot of stuff that that Americans weren't seeing, and I
thought I had something to offer.
So I started putting it out there.
And from there, as you said, I kind of cultivated a community
not only on social media and that was primarily Twitter back
then. But one thing that I, I tell all
of like my mentees to do, and I would say this is important for
anybody who's who's trying to cultivate more of a media
presence as well, is keeping a running list of the producers
and bookers and and editors that you're working with.
And anytime you publish something, you blast it out to
them. So I've gotten media hits that
way. I back in, I want to say 2020,
when the big protests in Belarus were happening.
I was one of the only people writing about Belarus.
I I'm, I've got kind of a niche little experience with Belarus.
And I wrote about about those protests and that got me a slot
on Fareed Zakaria, right? Like because my newsletter had
gone out to those producers. So cultivating that community
and not just hoping that people are going to show up at your
doorstep is really important. Of course, like, it takes a
while to build up that list, but once you've got it, it's there.
And I still get, you know, outreach from the BBC.
I still get I just had somebody from Scripps write to me before
we came on today. So like that that stuff happens. 00:11:07,680 And once you're in a database,
it turns out for a lot of producers, you keep coming up in
that database, right? You're, you're tagged as, oh,
here's my Russia expert or, you know, here's somebody who can
talk about AI and they come back again and again.
Yeah, it's it's so true. And that's how we met.
I mean, I reached out to her on Twitter and that's another thing
to make, you know, a point about is, she replied.
You know, so if you're going to put yourself out there, be
there. Yeah, absolutely.
And one thing I remember I I did a great program called Foreign
Policy Interrupted, which was focused on women in in foreign
policy and making sure that we got out there as experts.
And I think half the battle for, you know, cultivating
relationships with producers is making sure that you reply, you
reply quickly and if you can't do it, you're very polite and
say please keep me on your list. I'd love to keep in touch.
It's just that this time it doesn't work out.
Maybe even saying, here's a colleague of mine who would be a
good replacement for me since I can't do it, You know, making
sure you're making their job a little bit easier, showing up on
time, you know, for your call time, not being a diva, all that
stuff is really important. And I think has, you know, some
producers have become friends of mine as well.
So that's the way that everybody should approach it.
I completely agree. I mean, even with, you know,
just our small interactions through Twitter, I would, I
would check in and be like, hey, I saw everything going on.
I hope you're OK. You know, it's like having a
relationship or or showing compassion and being a human is
going to help you on both sides. Like you're going to go a lot
further. And I just want, it's all about
being a woman online. So why don't you tell us?
You know, you've been through a lot before.
We get into the tips for women online and creating
relationships a little bit, you know, deeper into that.
Why don't you just update us on where things are with Fox?
Yeah. So after a sustained campaign
against me, my family and I decided to to try to sue Fox for
defamation. We were able to file that suit
in May of last year. There's a one year, one year
statute of limitation on defamation claims for
individuals. It took me a while to find a
legal team. It turns out that, you know, in
America, lawyers who practice defamation law are really,
really highly motivated by profit.
And so individual cases tend to net less than, you know, your
Dominion or or things like that. And so it was hard to find
representation. But I had AI found a really
great legal team. They're super brilliant young
lawyers who are are just really motivated by what is right.
They're motivated by justice. So I feel like they're on my
side. It turns out the legal process
in America moves very slowly. So we have filed A brief, Fox
has responded, they've tried to dismiss our claim.
And now we're waiting for the judge in Delaware to set a date
for an oral argument or to just render a decision on Fox's
motion to dismiss. And this can take sometimes even
a year or longer for the judge to do that.
So we're kind of in a waiting game right now, but we feel
pretty good. Our case has been hailed by a
couple of media outlets, including NPR and the New York
Times, as the Dominion for individuals who have been
targeted by defamation. And, you know, it's in black and
white that Fox lied about me hundreds of times.
And that has had a really, it has had an impact on my life and
my security. We can tell when we're mentioned
on Fox and I say we because it's not just me, right?
It has, it has cascading effects onto my family because we get
death threats when that happens. We get you know, vitriol online
that I, I I know only comes from places like Fox.
And so I feel, I feel really good about the decision to sue,
which a lot of people discourage me to do.
They said just move on. And I started how can I move on,
right? Like, my life has been
immeasurably altered because of what they did.
So I look forward to keeping you updated about that.
But we yeah, you'll you'll be the first to hear.
You know, I on a normal situation guys, I would have
asked for Fox for a comment ahead of time, but this is a
podcast, so I didn't do that. We don't have that here, OK?
But I do want to get, you know, just commend you because after
she was, you know, essentially being plastered all over
television, she just kept go. And she's still going, guys like
she's on Instagram tweeting, she's everywhere, still going
strong. And what I really loved, Nina,
was that you're taking this new approach on.
I say it's new because not many people are doing it where you're
going to Instagram and you're weighing in on stories and
you're putting yourself out there in a video format, which
is what I actually tell tell people to do hands down all the
time. Because as a reporter or a
journalist receiving pitches, whenever you can't find
someone's opinion online, like in a tweet or Instagram or in an
article, it makes it a harder sell.
So I think the fact that you're putting yourself out there, even
in a video form, can also benefit you.
So what is the draw to Instagram and putting your opinions there
versus only say on Twitter where a lot of the journalists are?
Yeah, Twitter, I mean, I think Twitter has changed so much in
the past year or so since Elon Musk acquired it.
It has become such a vitriolic place.
And I in good faith can't buy into that kind of that that
scheme for Musk, right? Like it's, I don't want to be
one of his active users on Twitter.
And frankly, it had become such a traumatic place for me because
of everything that happened that I wasn't using it the same way
anymore. So it wasn't a huge loss for me
and it seems like most of the the really civil conversation
online is happening on Instagram.
I know you know Mark Zuckerberg still owns it still collecting
our data. We we can have our qualms about
that. But when I look at platforms
like TikTok, when I look at kind of the other Twitter
alternatives even threads, Instagram is like a kind of it's
a nice place to be. At least that's how I feel.
And so I've tried to focus there.
I have to say it's hard right? Creating a video that looks and
sounds good is a lot more difficult than firing off a
tweet that you might be able to do.
You know while you're making your toddlers dinner and you
have to have quiet, you have to be concentrated.
You know all these things. But but it also I think
resonates with people in a different way.
So I think you reached out after I did the the the video about
Taylor Swift and the degrades kind of explaining to everyone,
OK, here's what happened and here's why it matters.
And and that that video got 10s of thousands of views in a
couple of days. I'm not always so lucky, right?
And a lot of it is based on the whims of the algorithm and and
how Instagram works. But if I can reach a new
audience again and explain things to people and make it
more accessible and maybe inspire them to go and seek more
information or consume information differently, then
I've done my job. So that's what it's about for me
making that impact and Instagram is where I feel like I can make
that impact. I'll also just say I, I, I I
used to make a lot of videos, right?
Pre pre DHS pre like the disinformation governance board
debacle. I made a lot of videos.
I used to put them up on Twitter and some of them were fun.
The infamous TikTok video, you know, people people made fun of
that. But for me, it was me being
authentic online. I don't regret it.
Like it was me, you know, combining my love of musical
theater with my my informational expertise and and before Fox got
a hold of that video, people on Twitter really liked it, right.
Like did OK on TikTok, but it had like 10s of thousands of
views on on Twitter and most most people were saying hey this
is like silly and positive and it's like a breath of fresh air. 00:18:45,880 I think creative content like
that is not something that we should shy away from because it
is is something that like you know makes you authentic, it
makes you a human being. It allows people to connect with
you. And if we are just serious all
the time and we're trying to fit into this kind of mold of what
is expected of us, particularly as women, I feel like we're
letting the bad guys win because we can't ever be perfect for
them, right? So you might as well be
yourself. I love it.
You're just saying everything that I wish more people would do
because you need to be your authentic self.
Like, you can't just be out there commenting all the time on
news. Like, people want to know who
you are. Like, I'm even whenever I'm on
Twitter, I actually like now when people are like, hey, I'm,
I'm skiing with my kids. It's like, Oh my gosh, there's
another side to them. You know, it's, it's showing
that we are all human and to the point that you made about the
video catching on and being people liked it.
In the beginning, you basically were doing what everyone says to
be doing right on Instagram and Tiktok to go viral.
So, you know, it's hard. But navigating these social
spaces is difficult as a man or a woman, you know?
And that really does get me to the book that you wrote about
how to be a woman online, looking back and now being where
you are. What What tips do you have
outside of the many you've already shared?
What tips do you have that women can really pick up on and start
using today to help them navigate these spaces?
Yeah, I think, you know, besides like the the easy, I would say
easy and simple cybersecurity stuff, which unfortunately we
all do need to think about. One of the most important things
for me when I was going through the worst of the online abuse
that I experienced is the fact that I had a community behind
me. And that's not something that
just crops up overnight. You don't just happen into it.
It was something that I built pretty deliberately, and I did
that by supporting other women, other people whose work that I
saw, whether they were in my field, in an adjacent field,
whether they were journalists. If I, for instance, saw breaking
news in Ukraine and I wanted to share an article about it, I
would look for a female journalist to share.
Because we know from studies that women get retweeted, 50%
less than men get retweeted. For instance, there's only 30%
of the of users on Reddit are women.
So, like, we need to, we need to gas each other up and amplify
each other. And that leads to friendships.
A lot of my kind of people who are in my closest circles are
people I met on Twitter, and a lot of them are women.
So making sure you're cultivating that community, so
that if you are having problems on online, you're not just
relying on your family and friends who might be
well-intentioned but might not get the Internet to the same
extent you do. That is so important having that
support network. And then the final thing that I
would say also, and this is for men and women who might be
listening to you, is if you see bad behavior happening online, a
report, it that does still matter.
It sends, you know, signals to the platforms that a certain
account is behaving in a way that is potentially against the
community standards. But B, think about saying
something. And that can happen in one of
two ways. You can say something directly
to the person who's behaving badly like, hey, this is not OK,
what you're doing. And that might make people stop
in their tracks and say like, oh, wait a second, people are
realizing that I'm being an asshole.
Or you can also send words of support to the person who is
being attacked. And that really matters as well. 00:22:16,400 Because it it it means that you
know, you know you've got people who are in your corner.
And that matters so much when when you just feel like all of
this horrible stuff is coming your way to know that there are
people who value you and value your input and value your
personhood. So those are three big tips that
I think go beyond the obvious, but they they are so helpful
when you are the person navigating a sea of abuse
online. Such great advice.
You know, there's so much we could talk about.
I feel like I'm just sitting here like, Oh my gosh, there's
so much, you know, when you were unreliable sources and we had
produced the show after the disbandment of the board.
I thought when you were on camera and you were talking
about the disbandment and how essentially the disinformation
board fell victim to disinformation, it was such one
of those moments where as a woman, I was just like, so proud
of you to just keep on going. I know I said this a little
earlier, but guys like, how many of you ever just feel so afraid
to show up, right? You, you feel like, I can't.
I can't. I just can't.
You must have felt that way. But you just kept going, you
know what I mean? Like, I guess it's more of like
a mindset. Like how do you just keep on
trucking outside of a community outside of knowing your purpose? 00:23:42,280 I think one of the most
important things for me is that throughout the years I I went to
a women's college. So this has kind of been baked
into me from from the beginning. But I I've also mentored a lot
of young women even before DHS and they they have said to me
for years, you know, it's nice to have a role model like you to
look up to. And so if I had decided to fall
back on my yoga teacher training and move to an island and just
be teaching son salutations for the rest of my life, would I be
happier? Would I be less exhausted?
Potentially. But I also think I would be
giving up really important ground that women before me have
fought to retain. And I think it's my duty to to
kind of hold for the women who are coming after me.
And I don't want to let the bad guys win, right to to the people
who use disinformation and online abuse and deep fake
pornography, which I've been targeted with myself as well, to
try to push people, to try to push women and particularly
women of color and other people of marginalized identities out
of the public sphere. Our democracy is less strong
when that happens and we are just in A, in a less humane
conversation publicly. And so I I kind of feel like I
need to do it. And I also think that by talking
about my experiences, I'm making sure that for the next person
this happens to A, they're prepared, but B, hopefully it
doesn't happen, doesn't have to happen for them, right?
Even the people I really, really disagree with on the opposite
side of the political spectrum, even the people who, who, you
know, flung hatred and threats at me, I don't believe that they
should have to endure this. And I want to make that change
in the world. So for me, it's it's kind of,
again, it's about holding that space and creating that impact.
Am I tired? Yeah, I'm really tired,
especially as the mom of a toddler.
But the days when I do get to meet, you know, I was just in
Austin last weekend at an event at the University of Texas, and
there were, I was at a reception after the event and so many
young women came up to me. Not that there was a line, but
they kept coming to find me at the reception to the extent
where, like, I really had to go to the bathroom and I couldn't
escape them. So but like, those are really
gratifying moments for me. And that's that's what keeps me
going. And I hope for any young woman
listening that they're going to pay it forward at some point in
their careers too. Well, there's a lot you can
learn and she has two books. Just don't forget guys, check
them out, How to Lose the Information More and How to Be a
Woman Online. Plus, she has a third book
coming out. You know any other final
thoughts that you have that you want to share?
I mean, I think we're all in a in a vitriolic space, but like
the more that we treat each other like human beings, the
more we authentically embody our true selves online and kind of,
you know, understand that there's a human behind the
avatar. We're going to be able to get
back to that civility and that promise that the Internet once
held. And that's what I I want to see
in the world. So watch this face.
I've got some exciting stuff coming out and you can follow me
on on Instagram or any of the other platforms where where you
find your social media. Thanks so much.
And guys, remember to check out the links in the description.
There'll be a link to her books as well as to her Instagram
account as I may put in other links too, so check them out
down there and I'll see you guys online.
Bye.