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Welcome to the new Manager 
podcast. 

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I'm your host, Kim Nichol. 
Hello and welcome. 

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I'm glad you're here and I hope 
you're doing well. 

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I will tell you that this 
episode is coming a little bit 

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later than planned. 
Sometimes that happens, you have

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a plan, and then other things 
happen and then you have to 

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respond and continue forward in 
a way that you hadn't intended. 

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So that is what's happening 
right now. 

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And while you're hearing this 
episode, not on Monday when I 

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tend to release, but on a 
Tuesday instead. 

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And the other thing is that OK, 
so over the weekend I was in a 

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training for developing my 
skills as a coach. 

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And the particular training was 
in organization and relationship

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systems, which I find to be very
interesting because so much of 

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the work that I do, especially 
in leadership development and 

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working with managers is helping
them in the relational skills of

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work. 
Like so much about being a 

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manager is about relationships, 
how you manage up, how you 

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manage your humans on your team.
And that is the part of, you 

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know, this work that I find to 
be really interesting and that I

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really like helping my clients 
with is how to get better and 

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feel more confident about that 
part. 

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So in this training that I did, 
one of the tools and resources 

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they pointed us to, I thought 
was really, really good. 

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And I immediately thought to 
bring it to you to share it. 

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So that is what our topic is 
today. 

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And today we're I'm going to be 
talking with you more about how 

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to recognize toxic behaviors at 
work. 

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And this is coming from work 
that has been done for years and

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years at the Gottman Institute. 
And they have done a lot of work

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studying couples, studying 
relationships and what makes 

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good relationships and what gets
in the way. 

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And they've identified these 4 
categories of things that tend 

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to show up in relationships that
go bad. 

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So if you want to know, like 
what happens when relationships 

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go bad? 
What, what is it that undermines

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trust? 
What is it that gets in the way 

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of connection and compassion and
understanding and goodwill? 

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These are four things that do 
that. 

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There's a great application for 
this in the workplace, even 

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though the workplace 
relationship is different than 

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in your, you know, personal 
relationships in your private 

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life. 
But the thing that's the same is

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that you're a human and the 
people you work with are humans.

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And when we're thinking about 
how do I build relationships 

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that will effectively allow us 
to work together to make the 

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most out of the resources that 
we have, to face challenges 

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together, to do complex and 
difficult things. 

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Even when we don't have ideal 
resources, we don't have ideal 

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circumstances, we are in the 
face of change and we have 

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different personalities and 
different priorities and 

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different communication styles. 
I think when we take a step back

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to realize how much of what 
happens in the workplace is 

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facilitated or undermined by our
ability to create really great 

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relationships, it begins to 
change the focus of how we can 

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improve. 
Not just the work outcomes, but 

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also the quality of life. 
You know, like the quality of 

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life that you have every day as 
a person working with other 

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people. 
I, you know, have had a couple 

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of clients who had very bad 
experiences in the course of 

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their career and workplace, just
either working in environments 

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that were not designed for them 
and it was very, very taxing, or

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working with people who were 
very unskilled at managing or 

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that just didn't care honestly 
about the human part of it. 

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And, you know, it's taken some 
time. 

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If you've had a bad experience 
like that, it can take time to 

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feel trust in a new work 
environment or trust with a new 

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manager. 
And learning how to feel OK when

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things are going good might be 
part of your journey. 

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I know it is for some of the 
folks that I've worked with. 

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And if you're someone who's 
like, you know, and I always 

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want to be considerate of my 
team and I don't want them to 

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have bad experiences. 
That's amazing. 

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And it's great that you're 
asking those questions and 

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thinking about what are the 
skills that you can bring to 

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make that happen, to make that 
be true. 

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So part of what I want you to be
thinking about, especially as 

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we're coming into the end of the
year, great time for a 

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reflection is I want to share 
with you these four toxic traits

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so that you can Start learning 
how to recognize and identify 

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these toxic behaviors in 
relationships that you see at 

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work. 
And at this point, we're not 

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trying to solve anything yet, 
you know, like it's not a 

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one-size-fits-all solution, but 
I just want you to feel more 

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equipped to be able to recognize
and identify something as, oh, 

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that seems like that matches 
this, this toxic trait or this 

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toxic, toxic behavior. 
Like it's a behavior that is 

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going to undermine trust. 
It's behavior that's going to 

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interfere with our ability to 
work well as a team. 

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Oh, like that's OK. 
I see what's happening there. 

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Sometimes things will happen. 
And you might think that feels 

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weird, but I'm not quite sure 
why. 

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And so my hope is that this will
give you some vocabulary and a 

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gentle framework for organizing 
that experience and for 

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understanding it in the context 
of work relationships. 

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So for toxic traits, the first 
one is criticism or blame. 

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And this looks like, you know, 
verbal attacks. 

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So it's not, you know, attacking
or, you know, or, or, or 

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criticizing like somebody's 
work. 

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It's actually more like 
criticizing or attacking them as

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a person. 
That one that shows up, 

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unfortunately, quite a lot. 
I think that's why it's first on

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this list. 
But the tendency to criticize, 

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the tendency to blame others, 
you know, the tendency to make 

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it about who a person is, like 
who they are not, you know, not 

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the quality of work. 
It's, you know, if you've ever 

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had someone say like, what the 
heck were you thinking? 

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Like, are you an idiot? 
Like, are you like, why would 

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you do that? 
That kind is of response, not 

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helpful. 
And that's the kind of thing 

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that can create this chilling 
effect, a hyper perfectionism 

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where people are so afraid to 
make a mistake that it just 

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creates like lots of anxiety and
lots of tension as opposed to 

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someone saying, OK, like we need
to talk about this. 

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This did not go well. 
This did not go as planned or 

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oh, like the agreement that we 
had was this and that didn't 

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happen. 
You didn't do that. 

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Let's talk about why there's so 
many ways to offer feedback and 

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to be constructive as opposed to
being like personally attacking 

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and bringing a destructive 
element into the space. 

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So that's the first one. 
Pay attention, look for 

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criticism and blame. 
The second one is contempt. 

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Contempt. 
And that's where we see 

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behaviors like, you know, 
somebody ridiculing or mocking 

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somebody else. 
Eye rolls, that kind of gesture 

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can be an expression of 
contempt. 

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And it's the kind of thing that 
can also happen in a very subtle

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way. 
So if you're on the receiving 

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side of it, something might feel
really weird or bad and you're 

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like, I don't like, what is 
that? 

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Like what, what, what just 
happened? 

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And it could be that this person
is demonstrating contempt in one

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of these kind of subtle ways. 
And it erodes that sense of 

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trust. 
It erodes that desire to work 

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together. 
And it can feel just really, 

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really bad #3 defensiveness. 
This is the one that I describe 

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as puffer fish mode. 
So some folks that you work 

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with, they just might get 
defensive really fast. 

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It's like all of a sudden, poof,
they puff up in these spikes and

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you feel like you have to handle
them like super, super 

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delicately because they just get
defensive. 

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In my own lived experience, I 
found that defensiveness and 

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blame go very close together. 
So first someone gets defensive.

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What do you mean? 
Like, this isn't about this. 

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This wasn't my fault. 
And then all of a sudden they 

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blame, you know, it was this 
other person's problem. 

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It wasn't me. 
It's because of XY and Z. 

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Like, what do you expect? 
And they can loop really, really

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quickly. 
The 4th 1 is stonewalling. 

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And this one is more like the 
passive aggressive behavior. 

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The person who kind of shuts 
down or disengages or just, you 

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know, never contributes, never 
says anything. 

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You might even ask them like, 
hey, how are things going? 

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Is everything OK? 
And they're going to say, yeah, 

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things are fine. 
And you can sense there's more 

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under the surface. 
And I think they're not being 

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truthful. 
I think they're not being candid

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with me, and they're just 
telling me something to make me 

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go away. 
Or this is just a way of being 

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passive aggressive. 
Like something feels very chilly

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right now. 
And I don't think it's the 

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temperature of the weather. 
It's more like the atmosphere in

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this conversation right now. 
And one of the tricky things 

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too, right? 
So we've got these four toxic 

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traits, criticism and blame, 
contempt, defensiveness, or my, 

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you know, you can think of it as
that puffer fish or stonewalling

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that that passive aggressiveness
or that shutting down, that 

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withdrawing. 
And one of the things that I 

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think is important to remember 
too is number 1. 

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So we have different 
communication styles. 

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So sometimes something that 
seems a certain way, we might 

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want to ask and get a little 
more information to find out 

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like is my read accurate? 
Can I, you know, understand more

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like can I connect with this 
person and see what's going on? 

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And the other thing is that if 
you're working in a distributed 

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team or in a hybrid or remote 
team where you are relying more 

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on asynchronous communication, 
like you know, you're in 

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different time zones, or because
it's through written 

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communication, whether it's 
e-mail or direct messages or 

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Slack or chat messages. 
There are also lots of ways that

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we can have different reads of 
what those words mean. 

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You know, so much of, of being 
able to communicate effectively 

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is not just in the words we use,
but it's in the whole package. 

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It's in the facial expressions, 
it's in the tone of the voice, 

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it is in the way that we're 
conveying not just the language,

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but all of those other unspoken 
qualities. 

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You know, that's why we use 
emojis is to add that color to 

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what we're saying to signal 
whether something is, you know, 

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light or warm or heavy or 
serious. 

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So communication is a very, you 
know, complex and multi 

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dimensional skill that you have 
and it's all what you know, 

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you're always communicating and 
you're always receiving 

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communication and understanding 
what it means. 

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So I wanted to mention that too 
because the last thing I need 

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you to do is go around saying, 
OK, you're toxic For these 

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reasons. 
You're toxic for those reasons. 

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I don't think you would do that.
But I like to be explicit and 

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clear, but instead think about 
these 4 qualities and just be 

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curious as though you were a 
visiting scholar to your 

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workplace. 
And if you had to notice, what 

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is the level of criticism and 
blame I'm observing here? 

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What is the level of contempt 
that I noticed in the 

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relationships or communication? 
What is the degree of 

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defensiveness that I can observe
in this ecosystem? 

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What is the degree of 
stonewalling that is present 

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here? 
Start from that place of 

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curiosity, of just observing 
your environment, noticing what,

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if any, of these qualities show 
up. 

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And I can probably guarantee 
that through the course of your 

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career you're going to encounter
these elements to some extent. 

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So it's not bad if you encounter
them. 

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That's kind of a normal thing. 
We just want to start organizing

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your thinking around them so you
can be more deliberate, 

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strategic, more intentional in 
the way you choose to work 

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within that environment and how 
you want to lead others 

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yourself. 
The other part when you start 

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understanding the different ways
of identifying these behaviors 

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is you can then ask yourself, of
these four, which is my 

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favorite? 
Where do I go to when I am 

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looking to, you know, express or
exert a sense of power or 

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control over something? 
Do I tend to do more of the 

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stonewalling? 
Do I tend to get more defensive?

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Do I become really frustrated 
and do I kind of drift into that

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criticism or blame space? 
Is it more of contempt? 

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Like do I just not really 
respect people that I work with?

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And maybe it comes out as 
contempt sometimes you want to 

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also be aware of, as a human, 
which one of these is most 

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familiar to you as something 
that maybe you do from time to 

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time. 
And we're all human, so these 

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are all within us as well, and 
different situations and 

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circumstances can activate them.
And what's nice is that once we 

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start understanding kind of how 
this all works, then it allows 

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us to become more responsive, 
less reactive, right? 

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And then the other thing, if you
want to get really good and kind

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of, you know, growing your 
leadership skills, if you want 

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to get better at addressing 
these things, then we are going 

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to need to talk about developing
your capacity for conflict, 

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which I know it can be so 
uncomfortable for so many 

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reasons, but it is part of the 
skill set. 

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How am I with conflict That will
help you then find ways to 

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address this. 
The last thing I'll mention is 

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there is this whole kind of lens
of power. 

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So depending on what positions 
of formal power people have, 

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that is also something to 
consider As you're making 

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decisions for your own self, for
your own team, and you know, the

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environment in which you're 
working. 

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It is important to consider, you
know, like what behaviors are 

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are you observing and where in 
the power structure do people 

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sit? 
Because that will also inform 

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you know your options and your 
choices. 

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So that is what I wanted to 
share with you today. 

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Just bring this as kind of a 
lens. 

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Be curious about noticing 
things. 

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It will also help you if you're 
able to take things less 

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personally. 
This one I know is really hard, 

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especially if you are feeling on
the receiving side of someone 

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else's toxic behaviors. 
But when I say take it less 

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personally, what I mean is 
you're kind of observing someone

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and it's like, oh, that's 
interesting. 

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It's interesting that they're 
choosing to behave that way 

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towards me, towards other 
people. 

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It's also helpful to remember 
that if someone is treating you 

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with blame, contempt, 
defensiveness, or stonewalling, 

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you are probably not the first 
person that they have treated 

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that way. 
Like the reason they're behaving

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this way to you is because they 
have behaved this way before to 

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someone else, to others. 
Like this is one of their 

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patterns, one of their choices. 
There's a reason why they think 

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this is going to be a successful
strategy. 

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And you might be on the 
receiving side of it, but it's 

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not personal in the sense that 
like this didn't start with you.

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You're just the the person kind 
of in the line of sight right 

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now. 
And what I found is that when 

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we're able to have a little bit 
of that depersonalization, it 

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then becomes much easier to find
ways to address what's going on.

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And we kind of take it less to 
heart and it becomes less 

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internally absorbed and less 
toxic and less draining. 

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So, you know, that's what I want
for you. 

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If you happen to work in an 
environment where there's a lot 

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of this, we want to really care 
for and resource you for 1st so 

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that you're not suffering 
unnecessarily or being 

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unnecessarily drained and kind 
of caught in the teeth of this 

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particular dynamic. 
So that is what I wanted to 

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share with you. 
I mean, it's very interesting, 

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very exciting stuff. 
And I'm looking forward to 

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teaching and coaching more on 
this as I've been gaining so 

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much insight and learning more 
for my own self, my own skills. 

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So if you want to learn more, if
there's, if there's more help 

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that you want, there are two 
ways to work with me right now. 

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You can work with me for 
one-on-one coaching and that 

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starts with a conversation that 
we have about what you're 

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looking for and how coaching 
works and what your goals will 

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be. 
And, and you can do that by 

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reaching out to me through my 
website or message me on 

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LinkedIn. 
Links to all of that are below 

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in the show notes, my website 
iskimnickel.com. 

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Or you can join one of my group 
programs and I've got 1 coming 

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up on communication strategies 
for managers. 

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That one will start in January 
of 2025, just around the corner.

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So sign up for that. 
If you want to learn in a group 

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environment and you want more of
a structured learning, that one 

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is going to be a lot of fun. 
That one too. 

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With the course, I include 
office hours, which are time for

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just open Q&A. 
And then there's the class time 

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where I bring more like 
curriculum and there's more 

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teaching and it's. 
Something that I teach live so 

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we get to have a conversation. 
We teach live. 

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And yeah, like try it out. 
Come check it out. 

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Links below to that. 
Links to that below, also in the

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show notes. 
So thank you so much for 

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listening. 
Thank you for being here. 

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I hope you have a great day and 
I will talk to you next time. 

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When you're more effective at 
work, you're happier in your 

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life, and when you're happier in
your life, you're more effective

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at work. 
I can help. 

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Go to my website, kimnickel.com 
and sign up for a coaching 

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consult. 
It can get better.