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Welcome to the new Manager 
podcast. 

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I'm your host, Kim Nichol. 
Hello and welcome. 

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I'm glad you're here, and I hope
you're doing well. 

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This is episode 199 of the New 
Manager podcast. 

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And I think officially, if you 
look at the number of episodes 

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listed in whatever app you're 
listening to, it'll actually say

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it's 200 and something because 
over the course of the years, I 

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sometimes would add little bonus
episodes or, you know, like 

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little extra things that 
wouldn't get an official episode

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number. 
So, you know, one way to look at

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this is I've already done over 
200 episodes, but this is 

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officially episode 199. 
And next week, the last week of 

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the year, is going to be episode
200, which I am feeling pretty 

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excited about. 
As we move into today's episode,

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I have two things I want to 
share with you. 

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So my ask is, if you listen to 
this podcast, would you please 

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leave a rating and a review? 
It would mean a lot to me. 

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And it will also help other 
listeners know when they should 

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be listening. 
Is this an episode or a podcast 

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that they might want to listen 
to more of? 

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When you leave a review, you 
help other people know if this 

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is the place for them. 
So take a moment and do that. 

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Thank you so much. 
And the second thing is I am 

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teaching my next class on 
communication strategies. 

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We start January 7th. 
There's still time to sign up. 

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So if leadership development is 
one of the things on your To Do 

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List in the new year, if you are
a manager and you want to be a 

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better manager, especially 
around communication skills, 

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then sign up. 
Join that course. 

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We meet six weeks and there are 
also additional office hours 

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which are times when you can 
just drop in. 

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I will be there live every 
class, every office hour and you

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can just ask questions. 
So the way I structure it's 

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because I want to have the 
curriculum and the specific 

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things which you can see 
everything that's included, all 

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the topics that are covered in 
the registration page. 

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And I wanted to be sure that 
there would be additional space 

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because sometimes something will
come up that is not on the 

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agenda. 
And one of the values of having 

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a live teaching environment is 
you get to ask live questions of

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me and you get to listen to some
of the questions that the other 

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folks in the course will ask 
that might also help you. 

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So that's how it's designed. 
And I would love to support you 

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in getting the year started with
some clarity and some tools and 

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just, you know, let's talk about
how this year is going to go and

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how to enhance and build out 
those communication skills. 

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So you'll find information about
the course in the show notes or 

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just go to my website, 
chemical.com, and you'll learn 

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more about that. 
So for today, let's talk about 

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conflict. 
If the word conflict, if the 

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very idea of conflict makes your
shoulders crunch up by the ears 

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or makes you feel a little bit 
tense in your belly. 

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And I am glad you are here 
because in the course of your 

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career you are going to 
encounter conflict. 

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And if you are like me and a lot
of the people that work with me 

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and that, you know, come to me 
for coaching or come take my 

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classes, then conflict is 
something you're probably not 

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really comfortable with. 
The fear of confrontation, the 

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fear of conflict is something 
that is probably just a little 

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bit in your bones. 
And your initial reaction is to 

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say, Oh no, that's bad. 
I don't, I don't want that. 

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And so today I wanted to offer a
different perspective about 

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conflict. 
And this is something that I 

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have had to learn in the course 
of my career and life also. 

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It's not an easy lesson to get, 
but the initial perspective is 

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an easy one to start to hold 
onto. 

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And with a lot of these changes 
in leadership and manager 

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skills, it's going to start with
a perspective shift, a little 

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bit of curiosity, like is there 
another way of seeing this? 

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And then it starts to show up in
the actual workplace and in your

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actual relationships. 
Sometimes one of the reasons why

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it's hard to make that change 
from the learning place into the

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living place is because in the 
existing relationships that you 

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have, you've already built up a 
number of patterns in how those 

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relationships go. 
And when we're talking about 

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changing the way that we 
communicate or the way that we 

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respond to specific people or 
circumstances, that requires 

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doing things differently. 
And one of the things about your

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brain is it likes to do what it 
knows how to do. 

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It doesn't want to do things 
differently. 

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It wants to do things the way it
did them before. 

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You know, there's like a measure
of efficiency in that. 

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But that will get you into 
trouble because that means that 

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you'll over rely on strategies 
that work in the past but might 

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not be effective or useful or 
even, you know, appropriate in a

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current situation. 
So for example, if you grew up 

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in a household where the 
presence of conflict, whether it

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was overt, like there was 
shouting or there was really 

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big, loud, volatile adult, you 
know, personalities in your 

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household, Like if it's overt 
conflict or if it's a little bit

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more subtle, like silent 
treatment tension that you 

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couldn't quite explain, but you 
could definitely feel it, a 

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sense of pressure to conform in 
in order to avoid or prevent 

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conflict from happening. 
Then you would have absorbed 

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this kind of unspoken 
understanding that codes 

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conflict as bad. 
Conflict bad must be avoided, 

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must be reduced. 
And you might have become a 

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person who stepped into the role
of conflict alleviator, or the 

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person who is the peacemaker in 
the situation, or the person who

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tries to cheer up or kind of 
change the direction of the 

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energy in the room so that 
things didn't feel so tense and 

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things felt a little bit 
lighter. 

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It's really interesting, all of 
the different strategies that we

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develop when we're really, 
really small around conflict, 

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about how comfortable we are 
with it, whether conflict 

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signals something bad to be 
avoided. 

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It's helpful to understand that 
the reason that you respond the 

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way you do now is probably tied 
to your earliest experiences of 

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working with other humans. 
And I mean that in a very 

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practical day-to-day living way.
Like how did it work in your 

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house? 
How did it work in your school? 

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Like how, how did conflict work?
And so if you have that gut 

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reaction, conflict is bad, then 
you will put a high priority on 

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avoiding conflict, on minimizing
conflict and seeing conflict as 

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a problem first and foremost. 
And so I want to normalize that 

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first of all, if that's, you 
know, if that kind of matches 

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what you're accustomed to. 
And I want to now invite you to 

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consider something a little bit 
different, which is that the 

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presence of conflict is not 
always bad. 

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That actually the presence of 
conflict can also be a sign of 

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safety and of like healthy 
relationship Like the presence 

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of conflict can be an indication
of psychological safety because 

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it suggests that people feel 
safe to express disagreement and

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share different viewpoints. 
Sometimes when there's no 

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conflict, it's because everyone 
is too afraid to say anything 

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that might be perceived as, you 
know, different, right? 

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And so we want to be, we want to
be curious and cautious about 

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like what what kind of 
peacefulness do we have and what

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kind of conflict do we have? 
So instead of thinking conflict 

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bad, now we can start to say, 
well, sometimes conflict is 

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actually good. 
Sometimes conflict, like the 

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presence of conflict is a sign 
of good health. 

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It's a sign of trust. 
It's a sign that you know 

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something here is working when 
we have of a moment of conflict 

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or that tension arise. 
And so when we consider that 

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possibility, then it becomes 
important to ask yourself, well,

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how do we handle conflict here? 
What happens when someone 

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presents something, an idea or a
perspective that is in 

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disagreement or in opposition to
someone else? 

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How do we handle that? 
What do we do? 

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That's where you want to get 
curious. 

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And also in a leadership role, 
you're setting the tone and role

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modeling that for others. 
How do you handle conflict? 

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Is it OK if there's conflict or 
disagreement? 

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What will happen? 
So you want to start to get 

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curious. 
One thing you want to consider, 

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is this conflict generative? 
Is it generating new ideas? 

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Is it tapping into the 
creativity or the diverse 

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viewpoints and strengths of the 
group? 

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Is this conflict generative and 
creating more conversation, more

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ideas? 
Is there something good that's 

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coming out of it? 
Is this conflict respectful? 

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There are lots of different ways
to be in conflict with others. 

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We want to put on the lenses, 
like the glasses that say, is 

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this conflict happening in a 
respectful way? 

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What are you noticing about how 
this is happening? 

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And related to that, is this 
conflict about ideas or is it 

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about people? 
There's a real big difference 

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between saying, you know, I'm 
not sure that I agree with that.

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Actually, I have a very 
different perspective. 

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I, I don't agree that that's the
right course of action. 

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I think it should be this way 
instead For these reasons. 

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That's really different than 
saying that's a stupid idea and 

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you're stupid for suggesting it.
And while most of the time 

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people won't say that outright, 
you can sometimes feel the 

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undertone of contempt and 
disrespect in the way that the 

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disagreement is communicated or 
conveyed. 

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And we have to be careful here, 
right? 

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But we just want to acknowledge 
that communication is multi 

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leveled. 
It's not just the words that we 

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use or the words that we don't 
use. 

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It's also in the way that that 
information is conveyed. 

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So, you know, when there's 
conflict or disagreement, is it 

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about the person or is it about 
like the concept or the idea? 

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Now, a couple of ideas for what 
you can do when there is 

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conflict and how you might be 
able to handle it or communicate

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to your team like, hey, let's 
try this, let's do this. 

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When conflict is here, number 
one, you can disagree and 

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commit. 
That's when you say, OK, I 

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disagree with that, with that 
course of action or that point 

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of view. 
That's not what I would choose, 

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but I will. 
I'm willing to commit to this 

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course of action because that's,
you know, the decision that has 

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been made. 
And that's kind of where we're 

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able to say, OK, like I 
disagree. 

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That's not what I want. 
That's not what I would do. 

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But I'm still willing to commit 
to whatever the ultimate 

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decision will be. 
Disagree and commit. 

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The other thing you can do is 
you can be clear about who makes

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the decision and how. 
This is going to help get you 

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out of like the mire. 
That can be the search for 

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consensus. 
You might try to get everyone on

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the same page and everyone to 
agree, and that's just not going

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to happen. 
Instead, identify what is the 

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actual decision to be made and 
who is responsible for making 

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that decision. 
You might have other people 

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offer perspective, advice, 
counsel, whatever, but that 

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doesn't mean that they are the 
ones making the decision. 

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That's where you might say, OK, 
thank you for that perspective. 

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Thank you for that information. 
I'm the one who's making the 

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decision and I'm going to make 
it based on XY and Z, right? 

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I'm really glad that you're 
giving me all of your 

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perspective. 
This is the decision that we'll 

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make. 
And sometimes being clear about 

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what is the decision, who gets 
to make it, when do they make it

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can also help clarify and just 
organize, like what do we do 

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when there is conflict? 
And that can allow us to say, 

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yes, like, there are multiple 
perspectives here, but that 

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doesn't have to get enmeshed and
like, get stuck in, like who 

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actually makes the decision so 
that you can have clarity about 

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like, what is the process for 
that path forward? 

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And the third thing that you can
do when there's conflict is you 

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can also identify the needs and 
the goals. 

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So there might be multiple 
needs, different needs. 

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There might even be needs that 
are at odds with the people or 

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the different stakeholders in 
the room. 

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You want to identify what the 
needs are. 

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Sometimes people are arguing and
we don't stop to understand what

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is the underlying need that is 
fueling this argument. 

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Can we get clear about what that
need is? 

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And by need, I don't mean I need
you to do it my way. 

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No, that's not what I'm talking 
about. 

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But it might be someone comes 
and says, no, like I need to, 

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you know, I need to have this 
thing done. 

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I want it done in this way 
because I really need to, you 

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know, develop this customer 
relationship in this way. 

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And if I can't deliver on this, 
I'm really concerned that 

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they're going to cancel their 
service and we're going to lose 

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them as a client, right? 
Like, can you understand what is

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the underlying need? 
What is it that's behind that 

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different perspective or that 
different point of view? 

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And, you know, a lot of times in
an organization, we might have 

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the same goal, right? 
Like the same overall vision, 

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but we might have very different
needs and very different ideas 

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about how to do that. 
And so if we can slow things 

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down and get curious, like, why 
is this happening? 

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Like what is the underlying need
here? 

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It can help us to understand and
make decisions about what we're 

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going to do with this conflict. 
Also, when you think about the 

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individual people, sometimes the
underlying need isn't 

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necessarily one that will be 
obvious or that somebody will be

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willing to say out loud, right, 
'cause we have different parts 

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of ourselves and our lives and 
our own priorities might be 

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different. 
And, you know, with someone, 

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their underlying need might be 
like, look, I'm going to retire 

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in two years and I really need, 
you know, to stay in this job 

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for the next two years and not 
have things be complicated. 

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I don't know I'm making that up.
That can be lots of different 

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kinds of things, but it helps 
when we remember that people are

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multifaceted, that there are 
different priorities, needs, 

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different things that motivate 
them. 

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And even if we don't know what 
all of those things are, we can 

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still be curious about them and 
we can still remember that they 

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are present and active. 
Even if we don't know what they 

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are, they are still present and 
active. 

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So identifying the needs, 
identifying the goals, right, 

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like what are you trying to 
accomplish? 

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And if you you know with with 
that suggestion or with that 

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approach, sometimes we don't 
actually know. 

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So we can ask or we can just be 
mindful that that's also in 

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play. 
And all of these then give start

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to give you a way of working 
with conflict, of being mindful 

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with conflict, of being really 
humane and really appreciative 

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of the humans that you work 
with, while also not letting the

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presence of conflict signal a 
failure on your part. 

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Right. 
Because sometimes we think if 

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there's conflict, then that 
means I must be doing something 

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wrong. 
I need to fix it by making 

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conflict not be here. 
And that is not a realistic way 

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to be right. 
Instead of the fear of conflict,

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I want you to think about 
conflict is a really normal 

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thing that happens in the course
of human relationships, 

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especially in the workplace. 
And so your job and the 

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invitation as a leader is to 
begin to get more comfortable 

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with conflict, to see it as 
something that is going to 

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happen from time to time. 
And when it does, are you 

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equipped to respond to it? 
Are you prepared to think about 

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it in a way that will help you 
and help your team, rather than 

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eat away at you, interfere with 
your sleep, and create a whole 

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lot of pressure on you? 
Because you don't need that. 

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And you know what? 
Your team also doesn't need a 

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leader who is that stressed out 
about conflict. 

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Instead, you know it's something
that happens. 

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And let's get you equipped and 
ready to address it in the best 

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way. 
So that is what I wanted to 

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share with you today. 
Some thoughts on conflict as we 

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move towards the end of the 
year. 

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Thank you so much for listening.
I hope you have a great day, a 

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00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:26,040
really great holiday week. 
If this is a holiday week for 

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you and if you are working this 
week, even during the holidays, 

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00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,880
then I just want to send a whole
lot of extra appreciation to 

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you. 
And I hope you're able to have 

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some time to rest and connect 
with the people you care about 

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most. 
All right, thanks for listening.

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I'll talk to you next time. 
When you're more effective at 

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00:19:48,960 --> 00:19:52,520
work, you're happier in your 
life, and when you're happier in

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00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:54,720
your life, you're more effective
at work. 

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00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,920
I can help. 
Go to my website, kimnickel.com 

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00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:01,240
and sign up for a coaching 
consult. 

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00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:03,040
It can get better.