1 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,400 Welcome to the New Manager Podcast. 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:16,239 I'm your host, Kim Nichol. Hello and welcome. 3 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:18,800 I'm glad you're here and I hope you're doing well. 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,880 First, today I want to say thank you for listening, for being a 5 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:27,040 part of this community. I publish my podcast through 6 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:31,240 Spotify and so every year at the end of the year they do a 7 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:36,360 special wrapped edition for podcast hosts. 8 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:40,640 And so I learned. I learned that 84% of my 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:47,080 listening audience found this podcast just this year, which is 10 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,200 incredible. And I just want to thank you for 11 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,400 being a part of my audience and a part of this community. 12 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:58,200 Just I appreciate that so much. And for me, I know that there 13 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,800 are so many other podcasts I listen to. 14 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,880 There are probably a lot of podcasts you listen to. 15 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:07,800 So I want to make every episode useful and practical, which is 16 00:01:07,800 --> 00:01:12,640 why I very rarely have guests. And I will tell you, I get 17 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,880 pitched a lot. There are a lot of people who 18 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:19,440 e-mail me and say, oh, I want to be on your podcast. 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,520 I wrote this book. I did this you know, thing, so 20 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:25,120 and so. But for me, you know, I really 21 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:30,200 think about how can I use our time together to support you in 22 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:33,960 a very practical and useful way. And if I'm going to bring a 23 00:01:33,960 --> 00:01:38,880 guest on, I really want it to be the voice of someone that you 24 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:44,200 might not hear otherwise. And so I'm, I tend to be very, 25 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:47,840 you know, selective. And I don't often have guests, 26 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:52,200 as you know, which makes today's episode really special and 27 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:55,480 something I'm very excited to share with you because I 28 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,560 thought, who do I want to amplify? 29 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:02,240 What voices, what stories do I want you to hear? 30 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:06,520 What came to me was, oh, obviously it has to be you. 31 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,160 It's about your voices, your stories. 32 00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:13,120 Because you are a current practitioner, you are in the 33 00:02:13,120 --> 00:02:16,960 trenches every day. You are the one who is managing 34 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,200 people and taking the insights from this podcast, putting them 35 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:25,520 into practice. You are making it real and you 36 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:30,000 are learning things as you go. And so I am so pleased to 37 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:34,280 present and share with you today the very first Listener 38 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,120 Spotlight episode. In just a moment, you are going 39 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:41,720 to get to hear a conversation I had with Amber Lee. 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:45,960 She is incredible and I'm so glad that you get to hear her 41 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:50,080 story and the things that we talk about because she is a 42 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:54,880 people manager and I know for sure you are going to get a lot 43 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:58,560 of value from hearing what she has to say. 44 00:02:59,240 --> 00:03:03,920 So if you are interested in potentially being in the 45 00:03:03,960 --> 00:03:09,320 Listener Spotlight, then make sure that you get on my mailing 46 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,600 list. I'll put a link to that below in 47 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:15,080 the show notes, you'll want to go to kimnickel.com, the new 48 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,640 managers page and then get on the wait list for the group 49 00:03:18,640 --> 00:03:20,880 program. That's how you get on the e-mail 50 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,880 list for all things related to managing people and to work. 51 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,800 And also get on that emailing list. 52 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:34,280 If you want to get my free training on self advocacy, that 53 00:03:34,280 --> 00:03:36,200 is where you're going to find that. 54 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,320 And it has helped so many of my clients and students in so many 55 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,320 different ways. I would love for you to also 56 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:48,520 feel more confident speaking up for yourself in all kinds of 57 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,000 different situations at work. So you'll find that also on my 58 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:56,360 website kimnickel.com new managers and then get on the 59 00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,360 wait list. So having said that, get ready 60 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:06,200 for an incredible conversation. Get ready to learn from the 61 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:10,360 wisdom and insight of Amber Lee, who is a manager. 62 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:12,640 And you were going to learn more about her. 63 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:22,200 Here we go. Welcome, Amber Lee. 64 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:25,000 I'm so glad you're here today. Thank you. 65 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,480 Thank you for having me. My pleasure. 66 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,040 Can we start by having you introduce yourself? 67 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,120 Just tell us a little bit about who you are, where you are and 68 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:35,600 what you do. Yes. 69 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:37,200 OK. So my name is Amber Lee. 70 00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:43,480 I am based in London, in the UK and I work in mental health. 71 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:45,960 That's my background. So I've worked in mental health 72 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:51,680 for about 13 years now, mostly in kind of clinical and 73 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:55,760 community mental health teams. And I'm currently in my first 74 00:04:55,880 --> 00:05:00,760 ever management role. I made the move last summer from 75 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:04,200 kind of clinical mental health teams to a small mental health 76 00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:06,560 charity. But the role that I have stepped 77 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:12,280 into is head of Impact and communication, which is looking 78 00:05:12,280 --> 00:05:15,800 less at the person to person support I used to give. 79 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,040 And instead kind of zooming out a little and having a look at 80 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,280 the impact of that person to person support is having on the 81 00:05:22,280 --> 00:05:25,480 people that we're supporting and on our kind of wider mission 82 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,760 work that we're doing. So I'm a year and a half into 83 00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:32,200 that role. So new role and new kind of 84 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:34,680 industry so to speak, moving in the nonprofit world. 85 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:41,680 And I manage a tiny team of two 2 1/2 but sometimes but two and 86 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:43,760 separate to that. I'm also an illustrator and I 87 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,680 run a small illustration studio and do lots of really wonderful 88 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,280 creative work as well, looking at representation and the 89 00:05:51,280 --> 00:05:54,240 visibility of women of colour. Amazing. 90 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,760 And yeah, How did you find the podcast? 91 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,400 So about I had a three month notice period before heading 92 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:08,720 into headed into this role and I'm a bit of a over consumer 93 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:11,120 especially when I'm anxious or worried about something new like 94 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,400 I'm very much like give me all the information and I work out 95 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:17,080 what works. So I was looking for lots of 96 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,640 really wonderful resources to support me during that three 97 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:21,360 months of winding down the old role. 98 00:06:21,360 --> 00:06:25,280 And before I stepped into this role, I was looking for specific 99 00:06:25,280 --> 00:06:28,600 resources to support people that are about to become first time 100 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,400 or new managers. And because the name of the 101 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:34,960 podcast is so wonderfully titled and very original. 102 00:06:34,960 --> 00:06:38,320 Trying to keep it simple, just be really clear about what we're 103 00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:41,280 talking about today. Which works because the people 104 00:06:41,280 --> 00:06:43,440 that are looking for it can find it, which is what happened to 105 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,680 me. So that's how it happened. 106 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:49,600 Oh, that's awesome. OK, so it sounds like then you 107 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:53,920 started listening to the podcast before you, like officially or 108 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:58,200 formally got into the role. And I'm so curious to know what 109 00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:03,120 your experience was like when you first started in that role 110 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,600 and what like if there's anything you can remember about 111 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:09,360 how did listening to the podcast help you? 112 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:13,080 And I I'm actually, I'm probably asking too many questions all in 113 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,440 a row, but I'm gonna go with it anyways. 114 00:07:15,960 --> 00:07:20,160 And the other question I I'm so curious about is, you know, like 115 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:23,760 what have you learned in your experience of being a new 116 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:28,440 manager that maybe wasn't obvious to you when you started? 117 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:34,880 Yeah, totally. OK, so this idea of how it felt 118 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,880 stepping into reality, what did it feel like to become a new 119 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:40,880 manager, having tried to do all the prep work that I could do 120 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:46,000 beforehand? It's interesting because I am a 121 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:50,080 people person and I think my my personality, my people 122 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,040 personness, but also my background kind of working in 123 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:55,920 mental health also lends itself well to being a people person. 124 00:07:56,320 --> 00:08:00,960 So I feel like that helps a lot and that helps with the kind of 125 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:02,640 transitioning and meeting new people. 126 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,960 I love meeting new people. So there was a lot of ease in 127 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,400 that space. But I think what was most 128 00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:13,640 surprising potentially, or didn't I didn't feel necessarily 129 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,080 prepped for, is just the logistics of transitioning from 130 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,560 being a worker, someone who is working in a team and doing, 131 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:24,200 doing their work and responsible for their work, to slipping into 132 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,760 a space where you are responsible for your work, but 133 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,040 also supporting others to be responsible for their work too. 134 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:32,840 I think there's something about that that felt like the biggest 135 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:34,919 transition for me. You know, you have your week, 136 00:08:34,919 --> 00:08:38,080 you have your time that's scheduled, and it's very much, 137 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,360 you know, your time is your time. 138 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:42,840 You work out what you need to do for the week, and you're the 139 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,320 only person who might deter that. 140 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,160 And I think the biggest kind of thing for me to adapt to is that 141 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:52,400 actually when you step into a management role, the way in 142 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:54,960 which your time and energy and thoughts are going to be split 143 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:58,160 between you and the people that you manage is really different. 144 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,800 You have to shake off this whole I've got this to do. 145 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,880 When can I get that done? There's just more to it. 146 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,840 Yeah. Well, and I'm also hearing too 147 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,800 that the difference in mindset when you're just thinking about 148 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,000 the work that is yours to do versus you know, like all of the 149 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,920 people and all of the work that you're trying to manage on the 150 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,640 the people side of that. Yeah, absolutely. 151 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,440 And what was the, there was a the last question that you asked 152 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:26,720 that I really wanted to answer, but I can't remember what it is. 153 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:28,400 What was the last question you asked there? 154 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:35,200 Oh, I think it was Oh my goodness, I don't remember. 155 00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:35,880 It will come to. Me. 156 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:40,840 There was something you said then I was, I really want to 157 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:42,960 touch on, but yeah, it will definitely come up and whatever 158 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,520 it is, I'm I would say to that I'm sure will come up in this 159 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,200 space. But it's just been a really 160 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:53,520 interesting transition from what you think management is to what 161 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:56,280 it is in reality, even with all the reading and all the 162 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:56,960 listening. That you do. 163 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,080 And, you know, I think that's OK. 164 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:02,600 I think that's so good to hear. You also acknowledge that 165 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,400 because I think there's only so much you can do to prepare 166 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,480 beforehand and then there's going to be the reality of what 167 00:10:08,480 --> 00:10:11,480 it is. And I think there's a lot of 168 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,640 what I see is it's important to give ourselves grace for being 169 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:18,400 in that transition, you know, and to not be so hard on 170 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:20,680 ourselves. Like one of the things I see a 171 00:10:20,680 --> 00:10:23,000 lot of it, I I don't know if this was your experience, so I'm 172 00:10:23,000 --> 00:10:26,360 curious what you think. But there's often this kind of 173 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:28,840 background thought of, oh, if I'm getting this job as a 174 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:32,720 manager, somebody must think that I know what I'm doing. 175 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:35,400 And I've never done this before, so it can feel like there's this 176 00:10:35,400 --> 00:10:39,600 extra pressure of am I supposed to know this already? 177 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:42,200 And it's OK. It's actually like, no. 178 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,880 Like, it's OK if you don't know this, 'cause you will learn as 179 00:10:44,880 --> 00:10:49,400 you go and that can be so uncomfortable. 100% And that 180 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:55,240 taps into a lot for me because I, like many of us, do have this 181 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:56,720 kind of underlying perfectionism. 182 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,360 You know, you've got this. There's so many things that 183 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:00,880 contribute to that. I know a lot of them are just 184 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,960 kind of my schemers, just some of some of the some of the kind 185 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:06,920 of distortions that I carry with me, which is that if you're 186 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:08,880 going to do it, you kind of have to do it the best that you can 187 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,280 first time. Some of that is cultural and 188 00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:15,000 kind of how I've been raised. You know, my parents, we're all 189 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:17,280 based in London now. My parents are Jamaican, and 190 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:20,400 they have this really wonderful I was raised by two Jamaican 191 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:24,440 parents who are, you know, who are raising children in England. 192 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:27,200 So they've got this kind of essence that they've taught us, 193 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,400 which is that you have to do something well and you have to 194 00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:32,800 do it well because you're in this space and you might, you 195 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,760 know, there are, there are so many people that struggle to be 196 00:11:35,760 --> 00:11:38,480 in this space and I've always been one of the only black women 197 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:40,720 in the spaces I exist in. So there's this kind of idea 198 00:11:40,720 --> 00:11:43,120 that you have to be perfect because you've only just made it 199 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,320 into that space in the 1st place. 200 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:48,120 So I've always been very much like I pride myself on what I 201 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,840 can do well. So there's this huge adjustment 202 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,400 when you've done something really well for 13 years and 203 00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,840 then you become in this new space where you're completely 204 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,560 relying from learning and getting things wrong and 205 00:12:01,560 --> 00:12:03,200 uncertainty and all the rest of it. 206 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,560 So it has been a lot of a lot of grace and a lot of self 207 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:09,080 compassion. And one of the things I really 208 00:12:09,080 --> 00:12:12,360 appreciate about your approach and your podcast is your 209 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,800 mindfulness and your, you know, your, your different layers of 210 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:17,520 you. And the fact that you have a 211 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,240 background in mindfulness and yoga and breath work and this 212 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,640 sort of stuff really taps into the language that I speak and 213 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:27,400 this idea of being compassionate and giving yourself grace. 214 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,960 It's been so helpful because I do naturally chastise myself, 215 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,080 myself, and I'm very aware of it. 216 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,600 And I'm like, of course you can't because you're doing this 217 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,440 for the first time. So get a grip and loosen up at 218 00:12:40,680 --> 00:12:42,440 the same time. At the same time, do both of 219 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:45,200 those things. Because yeah, you don't know. 220 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:48,400 You won't know until you know. Yeah, and you know, you meant 221 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:50,520 you named something too. That I think is also so 222 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:53,600 important and often overlooked, which is the different cultural 223 00:12:53,600 --> 00:12:58,320 layers that we are operating in. So both in terms of our personal 224 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:04,000 individual experience of our family and our, you know, our 225 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,520 heritage and also the context of the industry, different 226 00:13:07,520 --> 00:13:09,680 industries have different cultural norms. 227 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:12,840 The country that you're in, or even within the country, the 228 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,640 whether you're in a very rural place or a very metropolitan 229 00:13:16,640 --> 00:13:21,120 place, there are so many cultural layers that are always 230 00:13:21,120 --> 00:13:25,440 in play that can influence both, I think the individual's 231 00:13:25,440 --> 00:13:28,880 experience, like your experience of being a new manager, but also 232 00:13:28,880 --> 00:13:32,760 can really affect the workplace in ways that I think we're not 233 00:13:32,760 --> 00:13:36,640 always mindful of. And I'm really curious because I 234 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,480 know you've got this incredible background and intersectionality 235 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:40,760 of all these different dimensions. 236 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,840 And in your experience as a manager who has that 237 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:50,280 perspective, is there anything that you've noticed or that has 238 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,640 helped you or that you've just observed as a huge kind of 239 00:13:53,640 --> 00:14:00,480 oversight in, you know, like like training or advising like 240 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:02,920 as people are moving into leadership roles? 241 00:14:03,480 --> 00:14:05,280 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a brilliant question. 242 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,160 So you touched on intersectionality, and I do so 243 00:14:08,160 --> 00:14:12,080 much work, both research wise and in mental health, on 244 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:13,640 intersectionality. And I think that there's 245 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,480 something about looking at the different layers of people's 246 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,200 identities that are intersecting and are going to, no matter 247 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:23,120 what, influence how someone presents and how they perceive 248 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:25,640 things. I think just having that as a 249 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:30,840 lens from the outset in all support and conversations and 250 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:38,280 inducting into new roles and into new levels is helpful 251 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,800 because it helps us to remember that there isn't A1 size fits 252 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:43,920 all view of what a manager should look like. 253 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,400 Because this idea of representation and how much it 254 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,520 matters works the other way. Because when all of the managers 255 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:51,640 that you've seen and what leadership and authority looks 256 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:55,360 like is very homogeneous, then straightaway you have a warped 257 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,080 view of what does that look like for me. 258 00:14:57,080 --> 00:14:59,520 Then what's my leadership style when all the managers that I've 259 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:02,960 seen kind of both popular culture and in real life have 260 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,360 looked nothing like me and we don't have any layers of 261 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,800 intersecting identity in in in common. 262 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:10,920 I think there's something about keeping that lens at the centre 263 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,080 and and reminding through training and conversations and 264 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,920 transparency that as you are stepping into your leadership 265 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,720 and working out and growing through it, remember that what 266 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,560 looks right on other people might look different to you 267 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:26,800 because you've got all these wonderful layers of identity 268 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,320 coming into it. And that can only help if you 269 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:32,000 harness it, rather than feeling like this is the bit I need to 270 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:36,320 get rid of so that I can step into this very samely version of 271 00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:40,280 what Angela's like. Yeah, that really resonates with 272 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,800 me and also with what a lot of the conversations I have with my 273 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:47,720 clients also bring up what you talked about in terms of the 274 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,920 perfection part and this also this question of belonging. 275 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:54,520 So the sense of when you kind of step into the room of leadership 276 00:15:54,520 --> 00:15:57,160 and you're kind of looking around to figure out how am I 277 00:15:57,160 --> 00:16:00,440 supposed to conduct myself here or what does success look like 278 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,800 here? If you only have one kind of 279 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:07,920 example or kind of a limited set of examples in front of you, it 280 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,320 can be really easy to then discount your own perspective, 281 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,720 which might be different because you've had a different life 282 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,240 experience and so you see things in a different way. 283 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,800 And so sometimes, like a lot of the work is learning how to 284 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,880 trust that who you are is valuable just because of who you 285 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,600 are. And so the way that you lead and 286 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,120 manage might be different. And that can be such a value to 287 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,560 the organization and the team and it can be so scary to also 288 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,360 learn to you know, is it safe enough to trust my own 289 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:43,440 perspective and judgement here as I'm doing something new and 290 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:46,560 I'm noticing that it might be different and how it's, you 291 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:51,400 know, kind of being role modeled for me like that takes, I feel 292 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,920 like that's something that I don't know. 293 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:59,640 I I feel like that's in that that is often not acknowledged, 294 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,800 but is very present in the room. Could not agree more. 295 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,839 I think. I think that lesson is brand new 296 00:17:07,839 --> 00:17:09,440 for me. It might be in the last couple 297 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:11,800 of months. I think that I'm finally, you 298 00:17:11,800 --> 00:17:13,920 know, you kind of go all around the houses just to get to the 299 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,000 point where you're like I think the answer is here. 300 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,520 I don't think it's out here because I have always had quite 301 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:23,560 a strong sense of self where again because of my wonderful, 302 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,920 wonderful parents who are really you have to have a strong sense 303 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,080 of self, right. There's something that comes 304 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:32,200 really naturally to those who are living in a country they 305 00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:35,400 weren't raised in, that's just ultra robust and wonderful and 306 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:38,200 multi layered already. So I've got that from them and 307 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,960 it I think it took me a while to settle into this new dynamic and 308 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,280 now I'm like, OK, your instinct is probably the thing that will 309 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,680 lead the way. Still, I think I need, I need to 310 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,920 work that out and and hone that and make sure I know what I'm 311 00:17:52,920 --> 00:17:56,520 doing. But that makes complete sense to 312 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:58,960 me and really resonates this idea of trust and trusting 313 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:04,280 yourself. Yeah, I am also curious, I'm 314 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:07,200 looking at some of the comments that you shared with me when you 315 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:09,960 you first reached out and I'm so excited 'cause you're but you're 316 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:13,400 the first listener that I'm getting to talk to and and I 317 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:15,440 have to just share like just as context. 318 00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:19,000 So you know, like I very rarely have guests. 319 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:21,880 I'm starting to think differently about that. 320 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,640 But I started thinking about, you know, my listeners, right. 321 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:29,080 And I was thinking, I know, I know that my listeners are 322 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,960 resourceful and I know from. I've heard from some of them, 323 00:18:32,120 --> 00:18:35,040 it's so interesting. Very few of my listeners leave 324 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:38,440 reviews, but many of them will just find me on LinkedIn and 325 00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,040 send me a message saying, oh your. 326 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,600 Your episode really helped me. This has been so helpful. 327 00:18:42,920 --> 00:18:46,160 So it's very interesting, but it just occurred to me it would be 328 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:48,960 really nice to have some conversations with folks because 329 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:52,520 I know that your listening and I've heard people say like oh I 330 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,360 listen on the bus and then I, you know, implement something at 331 00:18:55,360 --> 00:18:57,360 work. And so I was so curious to hear 332 00:18:57,360 --> 00:19:03,560 more about how the show has helped you and what is different 333 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:07,840 now that you're, you know, kind of implementing things. 334 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:11,120 Like what is different? Because I know also other people 335 00:19:11,120 --> 00:19:15,960 are listening and you have wisdom and insight that might 336 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,680 also help people think about, right? 337 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:20,560 Like, especially if your organization doesn't give you 338 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:24,200 support, which a lot of organizations are just not set 339 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:26,280 up to do. So it's like we find our own, 340 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:29,080 our own resources because we're resourceful people. 341 00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:32,360 So I'm really delighted that, like you were one of the first 342 00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:35,400 people who said yes, I will talk, Let's have a conversation. 343 00:19:36,360 --> 00:19:38,160 I jumped at it as soon as I saw the e-mail. 344 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:43,600 I was like count me in to whatever this is 100%. 345 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:49,760 Oh my gosh, that is so awesome. OK, what are your thoughts about 346 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:55,800 like, now that you've been a year plus ish in your manager 347 00:19:55,800 --> 00:20:00,400 journey, your leadership role, What advice would you want to 348 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:04,200 give if you could go back to yourself, you know, a year and a 349 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:05,840 half ago? What would you want to tell 350 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,640 yourself? Yes, OK. 351 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:13,800 I think, and funnily enough, I'm pretty sure, that what I would 352 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:16,800 tell myself then is probably what I need to tell myself now 353 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,800 as well. Which is? 354 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:26,680 But I think that the advice I'd want to give is to really spend 355 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:33,800 time and effort honing the kind of collective collaboration of 356 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,680 the team. Really focus on all of us, 357 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:39,520 however many of that is. And my team is tiny. 358 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:43,200 There's three of us all together, 3 1/2, really spend 359 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:47,600 time honing the collective destination that we're trying to 360 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:51,040 get to and kind of harnessing the language and mindset and 361 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:55,880 community, the kind of unity, type spirit that's required for 362 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,280 different people from different backgrounds to all work towards 363 00:20:59,280 --> 00:21:02,320 the same goal. I think that again, working as 364 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:06,000 an individual for so long, I have quite an individualistic 365 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,920 mentality. I think that what I'm learning 366 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,520 is that kind of being in this role and being in the team that 367 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,600 I'm in because again, impacts and communications are such 368 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:17,880 wonderful complementary departments. 369 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,200 But ultimately I'm, I'm head of two different departments, 370 00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:21,600 right? You've got communications and 371 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,280 impact and we're a tiny organization. 372 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:28,840 So both of my team members also sit for some days of the week in 373 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:32,200 another bit of the organization because all of us are doing dual 374 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,040 roles. And so I think because of the 375 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,440 fragmentation and the resourcefulness that's required 376 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,920 for being such a tiny team, spending that time to ensure 377 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,720 that we're all on the same path together, working towards a 378 00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:47,360 common goal, it's just a really wonderful use of time and it's 379 00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:51,320 worth doing as soon as possible. And as you're thinking about 380 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:54,200 that now too, what does that look like? 381 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:58,320 Like How do you connect more with the team? 382 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,520 Totally, totally. This is so helpful, these 383 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,960 questions because I'm just really reflecting on this out 384 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,280 loud now. So I spent and spend a lot of 385 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,240 time talking 1:00 to 1:00 to each team member working really 386 00:22:11,240 --> 00:22:14,000 closely together of course for relationship building in the 387 00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,600 first in the kind of early days, but also in terms of development 388 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:21,480 and clarity and looking at workloads and things like that. 389 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:23,320 So one to one, conversations are crucial. 390 00:22:23,840 --> 00:22:26,520 I think what I would have done and what I'm trying to do more 391 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,320 of now is making sure there are more collective conversations 392 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,520 with all of us at the table. Because even when it when we 393 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,520 talk about workload, there's there's a joy in trans and 394 00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:39,200 transparency and there's a real benefit to transparency of 395 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:40,600 workload. There's an empathy that comes 396 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:42,560 from knowing what the other people are up to. 397 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,640 There's more room for collaboration when talking 398 00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:49,000 together so that actually different people can say, ah, 399 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,400 that's really interesting because I'm doing this thing on 400 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,560 data and I'm wondering how that might connect to this thing 401 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,880 you're doing on social media or how you're trying to communicate 402 00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:58,960 our organizational vision on LinkedIn. 403 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:03,400 So I think there's something about collective collaborative 404 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:07,880 conversations, more team spaces for the kind every time there's 405 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,160 a one to one conversation kind of questioning, oh, is this 406 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,080 something that could be beneficial for us to talk about 407 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,280 as a team? And that's not to take away from 408 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,120 1:00 to 1:00 conversations, because I think the relationship 409 00:23:18,120 --> 00:23:20,720 you have with each team member is crucial and it builds trust 410 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:22,720 and it builds kind of connectivity. 411 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,400 But I think that there can be fragmentation, fragmentation 412 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,080 that happens there. Yeah. 413 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,240 By being together. Yeah, I'm really hearing there's 414 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:36,960 that perspective shift and and especially in the sense of what 415 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,160 is the one-on-one conversation for like, how do you use that to 416 00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,760 be effective? And then the thought of, oh, and 417 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:47,600 how do we use a collective conversation and how does that 418 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:50,200 benefit us? And helping to talk about the 419 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,720 vision and create the empathy and understanding workloads. 420 00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,120 You know, and you mentioned transparency, which I I think is 421 00:23:57,120 --> 00:23:59,440 so great. And people I think can sometimes 422 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:04,480 get a little bit lost in knowing you know, like kind of what the 423 00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,600 guidelines are on that. And the way that I heard you 424 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,160 describe, it really is about thinking from the perspective of 425 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:15,760 what will be helpful to know, like who needs to know what and 426 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:19,920 why, right? And that kind of I think 427 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,400 perspective can help guide like what you share and when and why. 428 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:26,960 What do you think? Totally. 429 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,680 I think that's that's spot on. And I think having this kind of 430 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:35,040 lens or having this filter, I see it a lot like a a bit of AI. 431 00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,400 Don't know if funnel is the right metaphor or a bit of a 432 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,400 sieve, I guess. And the sieve, the questions and 433 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,600 the critical thinking, the kind of going meta. 434 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,120 And I guess what I want to do, or what I'd love to do is to 435 00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:50,000 really keep this sieve in place so that lots of things are 436 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:51,440 happening up here. This is where all the work 437 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:55,600 happens, but it's always going through the same questions that 438 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,400 just remind me like a bit of a checklist. 439 00:24:58,080 --> 00:24:59,600 Like, you should know about this. 440 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:02,000 How could it help? Would this be more helpful or 441 00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:04,200 harmful? Will it add to people's clarity? 442 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,360 Or will it be more overwhelming to know what everyone else is 443 00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:08,680 doing and there feels like what there needs to be? 444 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,240 And this is a practice I'd love to do more of, that I'm doing 445 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,320 more of in the past few months. It's just having this in place 446 00:25:14,320 --> 00:25:18,320 to help support me with the kind of questions I'm asking, but 447 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:20,600 also make sure it's consistent and that people can start to 448 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:23,400 rely on that process happening because it always happens. 449 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,280 Yes. Oh my gosh, that's really good. 450 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:29,920 And I feel like my brain is going in like multiple 451 00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,720 directions at once and I'm trying to track my thoughts as 452 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,240 you share that because it because and you know tell me 453 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,440 your experience. But what I really see a lot of 454 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:43,040 too is that when we become managers, you now have more 455 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,200 perspective on what's happening higher up. 456 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:47,520 You're in different meetings, you're in different 457 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,240 conversations. So you might get more 458 00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:53,040 perspective about what the leadership is trying to 459 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,880 accomplish and how. And so then there's also like 460 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,800 you're in this unique position to convey to your team like how 461 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,400 they fit into the big picture or how the goals are maybe changing 462 00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,920 this quarter or you know, just helping them understand like why 463 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:14,040 are, why are we doing this specific thing, you know, in the 464 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,440 in the weeds. And it can be sometimes like, 465 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,960 oh, right, like sometimes that job is, oh, help, let me help 466 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:24,040 make sense of why we're going in this direction, right? 467 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,880 Because you have now access to conversations that your team 468 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,960 does not. Totally, totally. 469 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,760 And it's a really interesting, I guess the circumstances are 470 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:39,880 interesting because being a small team, there's three of us 471 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,440 in the leadership team, which is myself, a colleague and our 472 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,160 chief exec. So us three form leadership team 473 00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,720 and then we have four other team members that form the different 474 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,200 kind of departments. So we're actually a really tiny 475 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:53,360 team with very minimal layers, right. 476 00:26:53,360 --> 00:26:55,080 And we all work alongside each other. 477 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,800 And it's interesting because my role, my colleagues role, one 478 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:02,080 newly created role from an organization that simply had 479 00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,760 four or five people. Everyone did everything. 480 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,880 And part of our kind of growth and development as an 481 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:10,880 organization was to hire 2 new heads of department, which is 482 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:14,520 how we joined last year. So it means that I'm also 483 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,680 sitting within. All of us are sitting within a 484 00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,840 huge organizational shift. Our team culture is changing. 485 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:24,440 Even things like how we define and create our work strategy, 486 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,120 how that's communicated is really different now. 487 00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:30,240 Now in my in my kind of time that I've joined from what it 488 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,240 was like for them just before I had joined, which was that we 489 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,280 all kind of muck in, just work out what works for us this year 490 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,040 and kind of do it, and it served them really, really well. 491 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:42,400 So much had happened in the kind of seven years they existed 492 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:43,880 until this, which is our 8th year. 493 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,200 So now we are on 9th year should know. 494 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,240 So now that we have more layers and that we are more kind of 495 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:54,160 formalizing our processes, there's also a lot of support 496 00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:57,520 and conversations needed around the new structure and the 497 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,720 formalization of processes and kind of getting to know and 498 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,520 getting used to this new team that we're working in, whilst 499 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:06,480 also coming to terms with how different it is from before 500 00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:10,840 where decisions were discussed and passed down in a much more. 501 00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,520 Everyone just knows about it straight away kind of way, 502 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,280 whereas now we have formal processes. 503 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,960 So that's been quite complex as well for everyone. 504 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,000 Yeah, but like the change management part, like helping 505 00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,880 people understand what change is happening and why, how it will 506 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:28,280 affect them. And and I don't know for you 507 00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,840 too, but I in my experience too sometimes even just 508 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,760 acknowledging like, yes, things are different now and different 509 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,320 folks might have different feelings about that and that's 510 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:39,280 OK. But like, this is how we're 511 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,440 going to do it now. That's exactly it. 512 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,280 And that again, we've got these kind of words of grace and 513 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,440 compassion and patience and transparency, and these are all 514 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,000 the things that I think are going to carry us, have carried 515 00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:54,600 us and will carry us through because we're all working 516 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:57,480 towards a common goal, which is the work that we do and the 517 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,800 people that we support and us having a wonderful time at work. 518 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,760 That's kind of the aim of the game at all times. 519 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:05,440 Yeah, it's just a really patient process. 520 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:08,440 Yes, OK. I know this new thought also 521 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,560 just came in. How do you think about how you 522 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,320 measure success, right? Like how do you know when you 523 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:20,160 are doing a good job? How do I this is so big? 524 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,520 Because I do think about this often I I keep going back and 525 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:27,120 forth around whether I'm doing a good job or not or not. 526 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,760 So this is an interesting one and I don't know if I've got a 527 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:34,960 definitive answer to it, but my thoughts at the moment, a lot of 528 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:38,720 it is gut feeling. So I have this thing around. 529 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,000 I have this internal benchmark, which is the case professionally 530 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,120 and personally around contentment. 531 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:49,120 And feeling content and content is a really immeasurable feeling 532 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,840 in terms of science, in terms of quantifying it. 533 00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,720 But I know that feeling content with decisions that are being 534 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,920 made that I'm making, feeling content with the way that 535 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,480 projects have been carried out or the way that we feel at the 536 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:04,720 end of the quarter. For me, it's like, yes, you're 537 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,680 doing a good job. You're doing a good job. 538 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,040 Because I think my instinct is quite strong, which means I can 539 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:14,200 feel really uneasy when things, when I feel like I can recognize 540 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,080 where things could have been better or where I could have 541 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,960 done something differently or where I tried something and 542 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:21,480 realized afterwards that ah, there might have been a better 543 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,080 way to do it. The uneasiness comes straight 544 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,960 away and kind of hits me. And I think is this the moment 545 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,520 that you can confirm that you're not doing a good job? 546 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,600 So feeling content for me is one of the Bain benchmarks and I'm 547 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,880 also really learning how to step into vulnerability as a manager, 548 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,200 which is also ultra new for me. OK, tell us about that. 549 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:46,560 Very, very new for me. And that is because having 550 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,760 worked in mental health for as long as I have, there is a 551 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:55,040 warmth and empathy and connection that you have with 552 00:30:55,160 --> 00:30:58,280 every single person that you meet day-to-day. 553 00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:02,920 That has to happen without sharing anything about yourself 554 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,440 or not sharing too much about yourself, right? 555 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,640 So you're spending in an 8 hour day, you might have assessed 6 556 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,280 new people into a community mental health service. 557 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:16,520 You might have spoken to, you know, 20 people in a in a week 558 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,640 and formed wonderful connections with them and found out about 559 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,520 their history and their mental health history and their biggest 560 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:24,200 complexities. Right now when you have to have 561 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:26,560 these conversations and create these really beautiful 562 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,200 connections by only sharing kind of your personality and your 563 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:32,800 charac and your character and your authenticity, but not much 564 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,400 about you personally. Because in a mental health space 565 00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:38,040 and in a clinical space, one, it's not appropriate. 566 00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:41,400 And two, in that very limited time your focus is on the person 567 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,000 in front of you. And because I am a people person 568 00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:48,760 and I really enjoy being around people but I am really good and 569 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,040 really well practiced in being able to have that connection 570 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:53,200 without having to share much about myself just because it's 571 00:31:53,200 --> 00:31:56,520 it's not appropriate in the in the industry that I've come 572 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,680 from. So to learn, which I did learn 573 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,480 in a very surprising, startling way that vulnerability is really 574 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:09,160 important to management and that leadership is is a really like a 575 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,840 really key part of leadership is being able to be vulnerable. 576 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,760 And I really struggled with that because it wasn't quite a 577 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,360 natural language for me. I couldn't quite work out what 578 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,600 does that look like. Like I know what this term means 579 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,480 dictionary definition. I know how to do it in every 580 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,440 space that I'm able to be, but work has not usually been one of 581 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:29,080 those spaces and that and I and that. 582 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:33,920 I don't need that for connection, so that I didn't 583 00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,560 need it at the time. I absolutely need it now in this 584 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,720 new space that I'm in and this new context I'm in. 585 00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,760 But I've just had a really tough time trying to work out just 586 00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:43,160 simply not knowing. So what? 587 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,320 What should I be sharing and what shouldn't I be? 588 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:46,880 And what are the rules of engagement here? 589 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:50,480 What does vulnerability look like in a way that doesn't feel 590 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,280 inappropriate? Yeah, you know, that's there's 591 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,040 so many things in what you've just shared it that I think are 592 00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,760 just so, so great. And one of them was the 593 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:05,680 acknowledgement of part of what's required when you were in 594 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:10,560 a different stage of your career was keeping your personal self 595 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,680 really contained and organized, like separate, right. 596 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,480 And then realizing where you are now in your career, you it 597 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,240 actually requires you to expand your skill set and your way of 598 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,920 thinking and learning how to do that differently and that it can 599 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,680 feel disorienting. And you know, like how do I do 600 00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,040 this and what are the rules of engagement? 601 00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,240 And so, and I think that's something that happens a lot 602 00:33:33,240 --> 00:33:34,800 with folks, right? Whether it's around the 603 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,600 transparency piece or just, you know, with the managers too, 604 00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,760 sometimes the thing that made them really successful as the 605 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,880 individual worker is they're really good at just saying yes 606 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,440 to everything and then doing it until it's done. 607 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,800 And as a manager, that's actually not your job, right? 608 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:54,480 And that shift can sometimes feel like very jarring. 609 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:57,200 And so having that self-awareness to acknowledge, 610 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:02,160 OK, the thing that I measured my success by before, I'm going to 611 00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:06,080 need to adjust that. And that is a complete learn as 612 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:09,719 you go, right, Because no one tell you what vulnerability 613 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,280 looks like for you, only you know that. 614 00:34:12,679 --> 00:34:16,040 So this has been completely earned as you go and having all 615 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,320 these internal are you doing a good job? 616 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:23,080 Do you feel like you 100% know what you should be doing? 617 00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:26,800 These are the kind of conversations that I would never 618 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,719 have felt able to have in my in the early days of this role, 619 00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,199 that just felt like it was a no go, like to be in this role, 620 00:34:32,199 --> 00:34:34,719 What? How could you kind of confess 621 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:35,920 that? I'm even using the word confess 622 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:37,840 because it feels like this illicit secret that I shouldn't 623 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,760 be telling any, I shouldn't be telling anyone. 624 00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:42,480 Yes, and now we're all going to know because we all listen to 625 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:43,440 the podcast. Welcome to. 626 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:48,320 My world. Well, and it's still great that 627 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,159 you're sharing your world, right, because we often don't 628 00:34:50,159 --> 00:34:52,199 get to talk about this with our colleagues. 629 00:34:52,199 --> 00:34:54,520 And you know it's a different, it's just a different kind of 630 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:58,040 conversation. So you know, it's like yes, yay 631 00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:01,400 to all of that. And when you talked about having 632 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,720 an internal sense of success and for you that sense of 633 00:35:05,720 --> 00:35:09,920 contentment with your decisions and that internal orientation I 634 00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,000 think is also so, so important. I'm also a huge advocate of 635 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:15,200 that. And I think that when we step 636 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:19,240 into a new role, it is important to understand how are you going 637 00:35:19,240 --> 00:35:21,480 to measure your sense of success? 638 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:24,360 How will you know if you're doing well or not? 639 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,480 Because often if you're a very, you know, if you're used to 640 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,320 being good at things, there's a part of your brain that's going 641 00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,680 to be searching for, am I being good at this? 642 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:34,720 Am I doing a good job? Right. 643 00:35:34,720 --> 00:35:37,240 And especially when you're a really heart centered person and 644 00:35:37,240 --> 00:35:40,160 you care about your people and your work, you're going to want 645 00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:44,120 to know, am I doing a good job for my team, for my people? 646 00:35:44,720 --> 00:35:48,520 And if we don't have, you know, a clear sense of that, number 647 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:51,200 one, it's really easy to feel like you're failing all the time 648 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,000 when maybe that's actually not what's happening at all, right? 649 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,600 It's like you're not failing. It just feels super weird 650 00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,480 because you've never been here before, right? 651 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:02,400 And you're kind of learning something new. 652 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:04,520 So that might be what you're experiencing. 653 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:08,480 And sometimes what happens is we do need to make decisions that 654 00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:12,120 maybe people don't agree with or they don't love. 655 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,800 Or you arguing something in a bit of a new way and you might 656 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,320 be getting a little bit of the raised eyebrow from, you know, 657 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,560 the leadership team, like you're oh, you're doing it that way. 658 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,800 You know, we haven't done it that way before, but OK right. 659 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:30,080 Like those are the kinds of things that if we don't know how 660 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,200 to like what to do with that feedback, right. 661 00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:36,600 It can, it can land in a way that makes us smaller and 662 00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:40,000 creates more self doubt. So having a clear sense of OK, 663 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,400 like success means that I feel content with my decisions. 664 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,920 You know, if if other people are unhappy, that's OK, right. 665 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,160 Like, I can see why that would be. 666 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,000 And it doesn't mean I'm doing a bad job. 667 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,480 Yeah, so I love what you had to share about that too. 668 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,640 Totally. And it's it's that idea of 669 00:37:00,720 --> 00:37:04,280 feeling small. So many of the feelings I've had 670 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,880 over the past year or so has often been selfed out because 671 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:13,080 again, if you're not 100% sure that you know what you're meant 672 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,920 to be doing in the first place. In certain things or certain 673 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:20,560 decisions or the way that things are being delivered when it has 674 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,920 happened or when you are kind of performing in your role and 675 00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:25,040 doing what you need to do, there are going to be moments where 676 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,880 you're like this is where the self doubt kicks in. 677 00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,000 And interestingly, another feeling that I noticed came up a 678 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,680 lot for me is guilt. I often feel really guilty 679 00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:37,080 because I'm like could this have been done better? 680 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:40,080 And if it if it could have been, then I kind of consume that as 681 00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,280 guilt. So I've really had to kind of 682 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,080 talk my talk myself around that, talk myself through that to make 683 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:46,880 sure that I'm not carrying guilt. 684 00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:53,240 Guilt is such a what is the word unhelpful feeling I feel to to 685 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:56,160 carry just gets in the way of doing what you should be doing, 686 00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,000 which is working out how it could be, how it could be 687 00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:01,400 better, basically. And learning as you go, right? 688 00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:04,520 Like it's OK to learn as you go. We're all doing it. 689 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,800 Totally. And I think psychological safety 690 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:12,600 comes in a lot with this because I'm the self doubt that we spoke 691 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,960 about and the kind of uncertainty and the ground 692 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,800 feeling shaky it doesn't help when it comes to psychological 693 00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,000 safety and that is very important to me. 694 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,440 I need to feel psychologically safe and the team I know 695 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:28,360 especially my team thinking about them particularly. 696 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,840 But all teams need to have psychological safety in their 697 00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:34,160 workplace. So that actually there's room to 698 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:37,600 learn as you go and there's room to do something and try it and 699 00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:40,440 it not work out and it not be seen as a failure. 700 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,360 That kind of has a lesson. None of that will happen if it 701 00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,120 doesn't feel like a psychologically safe 702 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,680 environment. And that's another thing that 703 00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,000 probably has been one of my biggest lessons over the last 704 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:52,200 year and a half, just really channeling and centering and 705 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,240 focusing on how do we improve psychological safety in this 706 00:38:55,240 --> 00:38:56,760 space. Yeah. 707 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,440 And that's something too. I really see as a very like 708 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:01,320 that's where we can take the lead on that. 709 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,760 We can create that for ourselves by not being a harsh judge or a 710 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:10,000 harsh critic, by seeing learning as learning and and like 711 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:12,400 creating more safety for ourselves internally. 712 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,440 And that also then starts to role model and helps us kind of 713 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:20,640 set the tone for others, right, because every organization is 714 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,680 different. And you know, depending on the 715 00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:28,000 organization that you're in, you might be a 10 out of 10 on 716 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,680 psychological safety or it might be more like a three out of 10 717 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:34,880 and you're trying to create a little pocket of it, you know, 718 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,840 in your team. So that awareness of, yeah, I 719 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,280 think #1 awareness that it's a, it's a real thing. 720 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:45,080 It is super valuable and we have the ability to influence that 721 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,640 and we can start small within, which is actually a really big 722 00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,800 deal. Yeah, I think you're so right 723 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:55,320 about this idea of, you know, it's so funny how many concepts 724 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,080 feel like one rule for us and one rule for everyone else. 725 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,440 But psychological safety absolutely starts, starts with 726 00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,880 us. And you're right that me being 727 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:07,680 more compassionate myself and remembering that I'm learning as 728 00:40:07,680 --> 00:40:09,840 I go. Is one of the best ways to start 729 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,600 creating is to model a psychological, psychologically 730 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:18,560 safe environment rather than making it purely theoretical. 731 00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,360 There's something about it, starting with us. 732 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,240 Absolutely. And I find there's a lot of 733 00:40:23,240 --> 00:40:26,960 relief in that too, because you might be in an organization or 734 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:30,360 facing circumstances that actually makes psychological 735 00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:34,120 safety really difficult, but it doesn't make it less important 736 00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:37,160 or less valuable. So knowing that even if you can 737 00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:41,680 bring a little bit of it, even if it's just in your in your 738 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,680 team, it still makes a difference. 739 00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,640 I, you know, I think because sometimes you'll, you will have 740 00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:51,640 a really toxic environment or a really terrible manager or just 741 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:56,280 a really good person who's very unskillful and so there managing 742 00:40:56,280 --> 00:40:57,920 in a way that is just not that effective. 743 00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,840 And so being, you know, if you're the person who has that 744 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:05,600 manager or is who is trying to lead A-Team within that context, 745 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:08,720 right. It might be harder, but it's no 746 00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:11,160 less important. And knowing that, OK, I can 747 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,720 bring a little bit of it, you know? 748 00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,760 Yeah, couldn't agree more. And I'm really looking forward 749 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:21,160 to continuing to dive into that. Actually, I think working out 750 00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,480 what that looks like for us and our team, what that looks like 751 00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:26,760 for me, yeah, it was really new. I'm kind of looking forward to 752 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,240 that. Totally. 753 00:41:28,400 --> 00:41:30,840 You know, this is also kind of making me think of what you 754 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:33,080 talked about earlier when we were speaking to 755 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,720 intersectionality and just the awareness of different 756 00:41:35,720 --> 00:41:39,480 identities, because also so as a manager, we have this for 757 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,000 ourselves, right? Understanding what that means, 758 00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:45,560 you know for you individually, but also when you understand 759 00:41:45,560 --> 00:41:50,440 that that is a thing, right? And you have people on your team 760 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,640 who also have different identities and different layers 761 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,720 of how they experience you know the world and how the world 762 00:41:56,720 --> 00:42:00,600 experiences them. That also can be a way to create 763 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,840 psychological safety just by being aware. 764 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,000 Like everyone on your team is not the same, and they might 765 00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:11,160 have different experiences that are not visible to you or that 766 00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:14,640 you're not aware of. But they might be there and they 767 00:42:14,640 --> 00:42:18,960 might be influencing how this person is performing or you know 768 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,440 what is or isn't happening. And even just knowing that 769 00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,800 that's also in the room I think can be really helpful. 770 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:28,280 What are your thoughts? Completely. 771 00:42:28,440 --> 00:42:32,960 That's we talk a lot. I talk a lot about duality and 772 00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:37,640 this idea of us each being more than one thing, and often those 773 00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:41,360 things can feel conflicting, but actually it's just a result of 774 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,000 us being complex humans. We're just very complex people 775 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,960 that are often more than one thing that sit in, that feel 776 00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:48,520 like they sit in different spaces. 777 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,840 And I think it everyone benefits and everyone wins. 778 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:57,080 When there's a general assumption that our different 779 00:42:57,080 --> 00:43:01,360 identities and different ways of being are going to intersect to 780 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,880 lead to a really unique experience for everyone, nothing 781 00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,960 is going to work for everyone. I think it's just really safe to 782 00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,240 assume that as a as a default, which means that all points, 783 00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:15,160 everything is person centered. That just feels like a really 784 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,240 great rule, blanket rule for me. Nothing is going to work for 785 00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:21,400 everyone and it's important that we're really considering the 786 00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:24,120 different layers and the kind of duality that each person brings 787 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:26,320 because luckily we're a small enough team. 788 00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:28,280 I feel like I have a small enough team to be able to do 789 00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:33,600 that and it feels like a a great way to, yeah to to harness the 790 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,200 power of visibility I think, and ensuring that each person is 791 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,160 being seen. I think that also what also 792 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:44,640 comes to mind too that I love about this is you know, the 793 00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:48,920 remembrance that it's person centered, that the same thing 794 00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:51,240 doesn't need to work for everyone. 795 00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:56,880 So again, like we're learning as we go and also I even feel the 796 00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,160 conversation when you were talking about you know, 797 00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:03,280 transparency and vulnerability also really rising. 798 00:44:03,280 --> 00:44:06,160 The people on your team might also be struggling to know, like 799 00:44:06,160 --> 00:44:09,360 how open to be with also what's going on, right? 800 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,680 So 'cause as as the manager too, we don't necessarily need to pry 801 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:15,840 into people's personal lives, but we just want to be aware 802 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:19,200 that they have them and that there might be something 803 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:22,280 happening, you know, outside the workplace that perhaps they 804 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:25,000 don't wish to share. It might be very, very personal, 805 00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,360 but it can still be affecting kind of what we're experiencing 806 00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:33,080 when we're working together. That makes complete sense and it 807 00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,640 reminds me. So it's a bit of a parallel 808 00:44:36,640 --> 00:44:41,640 example of the approach that we have to reasonable adjustments 809 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,400 and supporting those with accessibility needs, which is 810 00:44:44,400 --> 00:44:46,840 that some accessibility needs are invisible. 811 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:50,120 So the key is to ensure that accessibility is open to 812 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,640 everyone, so those who disclose can benefit from it. 813 00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,240 For those who don't disclose either because they don't want 814 00:44:55,240 --> 00:44:57,360 to, because they don't feel like they have to, are still 815 00:44:57,360 --> 00:45:00,280 benefiting from the more accessible physical space, for 816 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:03,400 example, or the more accessible way of learning that's being 817 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:05,640 provided. So it kind of feels like that 818 00:45:05,720 --> 00:45:08,000 that was like a very parallel example to me. 819 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,600 Yeah. Oh my gosh. 820 00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:15,000 This has been such a rich and valuable conversation and it's 821 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,360 been wonderful to meet you and hear about your experience and 822 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,240 all of your insights and learnings. 823 00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,080 Is there anything I haven't asked you that you want to be 824 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,080 sure you get to share? I guess there's something, one 825 00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,440 of the things that I've been thinking about a lot, we've 826 00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:36,320 touched on it a little bit, but is the idea of stepping into a 827 00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,600 new manager role with a small team and what that feels like in 828 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,040 comparison to stepping into a new manager role with a huge 829 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,080 team. I this has been my only 830 00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,040 management role when I found it really interesting what has come 831 00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:53,640 up in terms of kind of people management and change management 832 00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:58,080 and relationship building and just some of the dynamics that 833 00:45:58,080 --> 00:46:00,520 have come up in a really tiny team of what that feels like. 834 00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:05,080 It still feels like it takes up so much time and it's so energy 835 00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,120 filling. And I guess the the one of the 836 00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,200 conclusions that I've made in the past couple of months is 837 00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,640 that whilst I think it's been really helpful for me to start 838 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:18,040 really small and have this small team, it feels like there is no 839 00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,600 less work to come round to learning how to be a leader or 840 00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:26,000 to develop your leadership with a tiny team versus a big team. 841 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:29,120 It's no less work, it's no less energy. 842 00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,040 There is no respite that comes from having a tiny team. 843 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,120 The learning is just as big, I imagine as it would be with a 844 00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,640 huge team. And that has been huge for me. 845 00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:39,600 I did. At the start I thought, I'm sure 846 00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,280 it's 2 1/2, have a great time, it's going to be good. 847 00:46:43,920 --> 00:46:47,040 And all the lessons just came flowing out day and a half. 848 00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:52,200 And I thought, OK, no, that's. A really important reminder. 849 00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,040 I'm really glad you said that. So just because you're managing 850 00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:58,040 a team of like 2 1/2 people, it doesn't mean that the learning 851 00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:01,920 is smaller or easier. It's still you know. 852 00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:07,160 And just on a on a perfectionist note, you don't want to feel 853 00:47:07,160 --> 00:47:10,200 like you can't ask for help, that you shouldn't be struggling 854 00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:12,320 to learn just because it's a tiny team. 855 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:14,280 Like your challenges are just as valid. 856 00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:16,520 There are going to be people that are managing teams of 20 857 00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:22,000 and 30, but you are no less worthy of working out what on 858 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,240 earth you're doing just because your team is tiny. 859 00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:28,800 Oh my gosh, 100% yeah. Like, watch out for the thought, 860 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,800 which is, I should be able to do this on my own, because XY and 861 00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:35,360 Z, right? Ask for help. 862 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:37,040 Help is available. Find it. 863 00:47:37,040 --> 00:47:39,960 It's it's OK. Totally, totally. 864 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,640 Yeah. Well, I just thank you so much 865 00:47:43,640 --> 00:47:48,600 for being here and for sharing. And yeah, I'm really glad that 866 00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,000 you got to come on today. Me too. 867 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,000 I've really, really enjoyed this conversation. 868 00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:55,880 I enjoyed all of your podcast episodes, but it's just been 869 00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,560 really wonderful to chat to you. And even in our conversation, 870 00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:00,320 there were lots of things that I probably would have scribbled 871 00:48:00,320 --> 00:48:01,760 down if I was listening to this in my head. 872 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:05,800 So I probably will. Yeah, listen that because it's, 873 00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,200 you know, it's different when you're in the conversation 874 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,520 versus when you're listening to it and be like, oh, that was 875 00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,000 really good. The thing that I said that I 876 00:48:12,000 --> 00:48:14,640 don't remember so. I think it's more of a thing 877 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:16,520 that you've said. But yeah, I'll keep, I'll keep 878 00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:18,160 my eyes open and see what comes out. 879 00:48:18,160 --> 00:48:21,080 But totally, one of the things I've just really appreciated 880 00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:25,160 about you is that your multidisciplinary lens, There's 881 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:27,320 something about the fact that it comes from a place of 882 00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:29,440 mindfulness and meditation and breath work. 883 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:32,920 That is the holistic approach that I need, especially with my 884 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,120 career background. But just me as a person, I need 885 00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,520 that lens to be able to receive info. 886 00:48:37,520 --> 00:48:38,760 So it's been. Yeah, it's really. 887 00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:41,680 Helpful. Oh, I'm so, so glad. 888 00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:42,880 Thank you so much. Thank. 889 00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:52,000 You lovely to meet you. When you're more effective at 890 00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:53,960 work, you're happier in your life. 891 00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,400 And when you're happier in your life, you're more effective at 892 00:48:57,400 --> 00:48:59,080 work. I can help. 893 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:03,640 Go to my website kimnickel.com and sign up for a coaching 894 00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:06,040 consult. It can get better.