Welcome to the new Manager podcast.
I'm your host, Kim Nichol. Hello and welcome.
I'm glad you're here and I hope you're doing well.
I wanted to start today by sharing a resource with you.
I can't exactly recommend it, but I want to tell you about it.
The reason I can't recommend it is because I haven't gone
through it yet. This is a continuing education
class that I have signed up for. I'm very excited about it, but I
mean, I want to be very mindful of the recommendations because I
haven't gone through it yet. You know, I can't give it my
full enthusiasm, but I can tell you it's something I am very
curious about. And for you, I wanted you to
know about it also because I don't know when they're going to
offer it again. So this is a class through the
University of Wisconsin, Madison, through their
continuing studies, you know, coursework, meaning it's only, I
think 2, two, we only meet two days.
We meet on June 19th and June 20th.
But the class is on trauma informed leadership, a guide for
all managers, and this is something I think is actually
very important. I'm glad to see the conversation
and the learning around this topic.
Because we are humans and we manage humans.
Being trauma informed can help us with interpersonal
relationships. It can help us communicate more
effectively. It can also help you if you're
in a manager role. It can help you to also work
better and support the people around you that might be
experiencing trauma in their life in different kinds of ways.
Now, I want to be really clear as a manager, right?
You're not a mental health therapist, you're not a
counselor. That's not really the role.
We want to have really clear boundaries about what is within
the scope of your work and practice and what isn't.
But because we are human and so we experience all of the things,
there is a high likelihood that in the course of your career,
you or someone you work with will have experienced a
traumatic experience in their life, whether it's grief or a
child, you know, an adverse childhood experience.
There are so many things that affect us as people, and I think
it's very useful to understand a little bit of the language and
the framework and also the sense of, you know, what is it that
you have that you can help with? Like what is your role and what
is not your role? And how can you connect, you
know, people to resources if necessary.
So if that's something that you're curious about, if that's
a population that you work with, if you are someone who
identifies as having a trauma experience in your past and
maybe you're already aware of that, it does affect the way you
lead. For example, let's say that
because of a past experience, you're very hesitant to ask for
help or you're very hesitant to speak up because you're afraid
of being visible or because you are, you know, if you can't set
boundaries, like you're afraid to say no to things, you're,
you're very inclined towards appeasing other people.
As you grow in your leadership role, all of those strategies
and coping mechanisms, all of those can get a little bit
tangled up and interfere with not just your effectiveness and
your growth, but just your quality of life, like the
experience that you have as a leader.
So if that's something that you're interested in learning
more about, then go to their website.
I'll put a link to their to the program page in the show notes
below. And if you're able to join this
upcoming class in June, then we might see each other there.
I don't, I don't know the format of the class, so I don't know if
the students will be talking to each other, but I am signed up
and really looking forward to it.
And I want to invite you into that too, if that's something
that you are curious about. And again, this is at the
University of Wisconsin, Madison.
They're continuing studies program on trauma informed a
leadership, a guide for all managers.
I'm so curious and looking forward to that.
So our main topic for today, I wanted to talk a little bit
about managing up. And this is a topic by request
from one of my listeners. So if you have topics that you
want me to address here on the show, just let me know.
You know, you can put a note in the, if you're listening on
Spotify, there's a place where you can leave me a message or
message me through my website, kimnickel.com or find me on
LinkedIn and let me know there if you have a topic that you
would like me to cover. So managing up is something that
is a very rich topic. I'm just going to touch on a
couple of perspectives about it right now, and the main thing I
want you to know is that you might have a manager who is a
really great person. They might be really kind, they
might have excellent intentions, and at the exact same time, they
may not be a great manager. Managing up is the way you can
think about how can you effectively influence and
partner with someone who is in a position of formal power above
you. So you know you in the in the
hierarchy of the organization, they're above you.
So there's some power dynamics to be mindful of.
How can you, you know, manage up in a way that makes things
better, makes things easier and realize this is not a skill set
only when you are feeling friction or disappointment or
some kind of struggle within the organization.
It's actually just a great mindset and a great practice to
help you be more engaged and, you know, connect to your sense
of agency and autonomy, even when working within a very
specific power structure. And that also could be a whole
topic depending on your organization and the, you know,
the, the way that your professional culture is, is an
organized. So here's what I want you to
think about for the moment #1 when you're thinking about
managing up the two things, I want you to consider power and
partnership power. Because depending on the
situation, right, this person does have a position of power
over you. We want to be mindful of that.
We want to be mindful of what is the power dynamic here, OK.
And so when you're thinking about what does it mean to
manage up, a question to start with is, what do I know about
this person? And the idea is, if they're in a
position of power over you, you want to ask yourself, what do I
know about them? Because that will help me work
with them in a way that is good for both of us, in a way that is
good for all of us. So what do you know about this
person? For example, how do they prefer
to communicate? What do you know about that?
And if you're not sure how they prefer to communicate, then ask
them. You might ask them, you know, do
you prefer me to direct message you with this kind of thing?
Would you prefer that I send you an e-mail?
But we when would you prefer that I schedule time with you,
understand what their preferences are around
communication because then when you want to be most effective,
you will have an idea of how best to do that communication in
the most effective way. Another question to ask how did
they measure success? This one is really good because
if you understand how your manager or the person above your
manager, if you understand how they measure success, you start
to understand what they care about.
How does your work and your team connect with their measures of
success? You want to get a sense of what
that is. And they might have a personal
idea of what success is for them.
And then there might be an organizational metric or an
organizational indicator of what success looks like.
And those are not always the same thing.
So you want to be curious, how do they measure success?
And if you don't know, you can always ask.
Ask them, hey, how are you measuring success this quarter,
this year, this month? Because if you know, it makes it
easier for you to line up and work with them and with the
things that they care about and just know where their attention
is going to be. Another question to ask, what do
they care about? This is related to the idea of,
you know, what do they measure success by?
But it gives us a little different perspective when we
ask what do they care about? Because this can also speak to
what are their values? How do they see themselves as a
leader? What do they, you know, care
about and value in their personal life, in their
professional life? The more you know, the more you
get a, a picture of their interior world and how they are
prioritizing and thinking about things and caring about things,
the easier it is then for you to get things done because you can
do it in alignment with where their attention and, and care
is. And then again, also ask what
are their priorities? And this also, it's similar to,
you know, what do you care about?
What are your, how do you measure success?
But it's also a little bit different.
You're going to get a different answer to each of these
questions, and all of it helps you to understand where their
attention is. You know what they're focused
on, what it is that matters to them, so that when you are
asking for something or you are wondering why the heck are they
doing this, this makes no sense to me.
See if it perhaps lines up with one of those questions.
Does it line up with how they're measuring success?
Does it line up with what they care about?
Does it line up with what they've said their priorities
are and realize too? And this kind of connects to
that power, you know, aspect. They may not tell you the most
direct and honest answer and not because they're bad people or
because they're trying to mislead you.
But sometimes people are a little bit private or they're
not fully aware of something themselves.
So, for example, you might have a manager and maybe the thing
they care most about is being seen as being good at their job
by their manager. The most important thing for
them is that their manager sees them as being good at their job.
And the way they're trying to do that is by actually putting the
squeeze on you or maybe by kind of neglecting you and working on
something else. And so if you get a sense like,
you know, they, they say they care about this metric, but
based on what they're communicating and behaving, I am
questioning whether that is true.
I kind of feel like they just want to look good in the eyes of
this other person in a higher position of power.
When we start to understand some of those dynamics within
relationships and the things that that motivate and drive us
and and the people that we work with, it starts to make it a
little easier to understand like what is happening here.
And one time I had a manager, really lovely person, really
great intentions, but was really struggling because they wanted
to leave. They did not want to be in the
company anymore. They were having a lot of
conflict that was not obvious to most of us, but they were having
conflict with somebody else on a senior leadership team.
So their day-to-day was very uncomfortable.
They shielded a lot of that relationship conflict from us.
So we didn't totally understand what was going on.
We just knew like, oh, like our, our managers, they're, they're a
really nice person, but they're just not very, very effective at
getting us the resources that we need.
And they seem really stressed out all the time.
We have to remember that people are human and there's always
more going on than we will ever fully understand.
But for you, when you're thinking about how do I manage
up, you want to think about who is this person?
Who are they as a human? What do I understand about, you
know, the power dynamics that might, might be in play?
What can I understand about their preferences, how they
prefer to communicate? How do they measure success?
What is it that they care about? What are their priorities?
All of that will help you to be more effective in communicating
and managing up to that person. The other thing I wanted to
point you towards is the mindset of partnership.
So especially when there is a formal power dynamic, it can be
easy to fall into a pattern of deferring like I will defer to
this person in the higher position because I don't want to
seem like I'm overstepping or I want to appear respectful.
So I don't want to, you know, make them think that I don't
think that they know what they're doing like that.
There can be some interesting feelings and perspectives that
happen when we're in that situation.
And I want to offer this perspective of regardless of
whatever formal role they have, approach it from the lens of we
are working in partnership together, even if we're not on
the same exact formal power footing because, you know, your
boss has direct influence over your employment, over your
salary. We understand and respect that.
And yet you can still approach this from a place of
partnership. The idea that even though there
is a power differential, we're here to work together.
We're here to do good work. We're here because, you know, we
care about creating great outcomes for our team, for the
organization, maybe for the ultimate customer or
constituents, the people who will receive the effort of the
work that we're doing together. And when you think of yourself
as a partner, that will help to feel a little bit more even
because you have different roles depending on where you are in
the organization. But when we think in, in terms
of partnership, it's OK for there to be a power differential
with those different roles. But that sense of partnership
can create a little bit more confidence, a little bit more
sense of, you know, we may not be on like equal footing in
terms of hierarchy, but in terms of humans who are wanting to
work well together. Like there's a, there's a
connection here. And you might feel a little bit
more confident and a little bit more at home in, you know, the
way that you do your work with this person.
So the mindset of partnership is this idea of we're here to work
together. When you think about what is it
that you want from them? What is it that you need from
them? A great partnership requires
some open and clear communication.
So understand and think for yourself, what is it that I need
from them? And can I ask how can I ask?
How can I ask from a place of partnership and not from a place
of feeling like a little kid? And if you've listened to this
podcast, you know, there are a couple of other episodes around
how to make and ask and if that if you need a, a refresh, then
find those episodes. I'll put a link to or a note
about the most recent one in the show notes as well.
So thinking about what is it that you need from them?
What is it that you would like from them?
And then in terms of partnership, you're also
thinking about your communication strategy.
So what do they need to know? When do they need to know it?
How do you want to communicate and convey it?
What is the level of detail that they need?
It might be less than you think. You know, I think we often start
communication from the perspective of, I'll give you
all the background and then I'll tell you the main point.
And in our work lives, it can often be more effective to flip
that meaning, OK, here's my main point, or here's my main
request, or here's my recommendation.
And now I'll give you a couple of reasons why.
And then if you want more detail, more data, if you want
to understand more about where that came from, we can have a
conversation about it. But the the communication, we
design it with the person in mind.
What is it that we want them to do with it?
How can I communicate this in a way that makes it easy for them
to know what to do with it? And understanding that I don't
have to put all of the justification in it, I can
simply let them know. If you want to go more into the
details, let me know. I can share more with you.
Part of the work that we do as we rise in our career in
leadership is we start thinking about how can I communicate in
the way that will be most effective for this person so
that when they receive it, they know what to do with it.
And that's a little bit different than how we
communicate in school or how we've communicated in a lot of
our other relationships in life. So think about in terms of
partnership, how are we going to work together?
What is it that I need? How can I communicate in a more
strategic way so that this partnership can thrive?
And with those two points, you know, managing up the lens of
what is the. The power here, what is the
partnership here? What is it that I know about
this person? That alone is a great starting
point for how to develop the skill of managing up.
And I really do think of it as a service.
You know, I think sometimes people will say, oh, but
managing up sounds so manipulative.
And I think of it more like a service, you know, if I
understand this person and kind of what they're focused on, it,
it'll act. I can actually make their life
easier, which makes my life easier, which makes our
partnership more effective. And all of that is good.
You know, like that's a net benefit.
And it takes a little bit of practice.
It takes a little bit of skill and realize, you know, people
vary. And so depending on your
specific situation, expect that you'll need to adapt and adjust
everything that I've told you today based on the specific
personality power dynamics like industry, organization, size and
situation. All of that will vary person to
person and situation to situation.
So, you know, start with kind of the the bones of the inquiry.
Be really curious, think in terms of partnership, understand
the power dynamic and start there.
If you have more questions, if you have more, you know, topics
you want me to cover, if you have a win or a success story,
let me know. Send me a note either through
Spotify, through LinkedIn, or through my website,
kimnickel.com. All right, that's what I have
for you today. Be well and I will talk to you
next time. When you're more effective at
work, you're happier in your life, and when you're happier in
your life, you're more effective at work.
I can help. Go to my website, kimnickel.com
and sign up for a coaching consult.
It can get better.