1
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,400
Welcome to the new Manager 
podcast. 

2
00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:16,200
I'm your host, Kim Nichol. 
Hello and welcome. 

3
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,960
I'm glad you're here and I hope 
you're doing well. 

4
00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:22,600
I wanted to start today by 
sharing a resource with you. 

5
00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:28,480
I can't exactly recommend it, 
but I want to tell you about it.

6
00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,640
The reason I can't recommend it 
is because I haven't gone 

7
00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,840
through it yet. 
This is a continuing education 

8
00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:42,160
class that I have signed up for.
I'm very excited about it, but I

9
00:00:42,160 --> 00:00:45,040
mean, I want to be very mindful 
of the recommendations because I

10
00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,320
haven't gone through it yet. 
You know, I can't give it my 

11
00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:52,480
full enthusiasm, but I can tell 
you it's something I am very 

12
00:00:52,480 --> 00:00:55,920
curious about. 
And for you, I wanted you to 

13
00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,320
know about it also because I 
don't know when they're going to

14
00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:04,000
offer it again. 
So this is a class through the 

15
00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,880
University of Wisconsin, 
Madison, through their 

16
00:01:07,880 --> 00:01:13,720
continuing studies, you know, 
coursework, meaning it's only, I

17
00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:16,360
think 2, two, we only meet two 
days. 

18
00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:19,200
We meet on June 19th and June 
20th. 

19
00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:25,120
But the class is on trauma 
informed leadership, a guide for

20
00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,480
all managers, and this is 
something I think is actually 

21
00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,920
very important. 
I'm glad to see the conversation

22
00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,240
and the learning around this 
topic. 

23
00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,640
Because we are humans and we 
manage humans. 

24
00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,480
Being trauma informed can help 
us with interpersonal 

25
00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:45,320
relationships. 
It can help us communicate more 

26
00:01:45,320 --> 00:01:48,040
effectively. 
It can also help you if you're 

27
00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:51,760
in a manager role. 
It can help you to also work 

28
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:57,160
better and support the people 
around you that might be 

29
00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:02,400
experiencing trauma in their 
life in different kinds of ways.

30
00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:07,080
Now, I want to be really clear 
as a manager, right? 

31
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,919
You're not a mental health 
therapist, you're not a 

32
00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,080
counselor. 
That's not really the role. 

33
00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,680
We want to have really clear 
boundaries about what is within 

34
00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,200
the scope of your work and 
practice and what isn't. 

35
00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:25,840
But because we are human and so 
we experience all of the things,

36
00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,200
there is a high likelihood that 
in the course of your career, 

37
00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:34,560
you or someone you work with 
will have experienced a 

38
00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:41,280
traumatic experience in their 
life, whether it's grief or a 

39
00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:44,440
child, you know, an adverse 
childhood experience. 

40
00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:51,960
There are so many things that 
affect us as people, and I think

41
00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:56,560
it's very useful to understand a
little bit of the language and 

42
00:02:56,560 --> 00:03:01,000
the framework and also the sense
of, you know, what is it that 

43
00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:07,120
you have that you can help with?
Like what is your role and what 

44
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:10,080
is not your role? 
And how can you connect, you 

45
00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,400
know, people to resources if 
necessary. 

46
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,120
So if that's something that 
you're curious about, if that's 

47
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:20,520
a population that you work with,
if you are someone who 

48
00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:25,800
identifies as having a trauma 
experience in your past and 

49
00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,920
maybe you're already aware of 
that, it does affect the way you

50
00:03:29,920 --> 00:03:32,480
lead. 
For example, let's say that 

51
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,000
because of a past experience, 
you're very hesitant to ask for 

52
00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:42,160
help or you're very hesitant to 
speak up because you're afraid 

53
00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:46,200
of being visible or because you 
are, you know, if you can't set 

54
00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,680
boundaries, like you're afraid 
to say no to things, you're, 

55
00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,760
you're very inclined towards 
appeasing other people. 

56
00:03:54,280 --> 00:04:00,000
As you grow in your leadership 
role, all of those strategies 

57
00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:02,840
and coping mechanisms, all of 
those can get a little bit 

58
00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,160
tangled up and interfere with 
not just your effectiveness and 

59
00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,720
your growth, but just your 
quality of life, like the 

60
00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:13,880
experience that you have as a 
leader. 

61
00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,640
So if that's something that 
you're interested in learning 

62
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:20,240
more about, then go to their 
website. 

63
00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:24,600
I'll put a link to their to the 
program page in the show notes 

64
00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,920
below. 
And if you're able to join this 

65
00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:32,440
upcoming class in June, then we 
might see each other there. 

66
00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,880
I don't, I don't know the format
of the class, so I don't know if

67
00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,320
the students will be talking to 
each other, but I am signed up 

68
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:39,760
and really looking forward to 
it. 

69
00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:44,120
And I want to invite you into 
that too, if that's something 

70
00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,360
that you are curious about. 
And again, this is at the 

71
00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,840
University of Wisconsin, 
Madison. 

72
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:56,200
They're continuing studies 
program on trauma informed a 

73
00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,320
leadership, a guide for all 
managers. 

74
00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:02,520
I'm so curious and looking 
forward to that. 

75
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:07,200
So our main topic for today, I 
wanted to talk a little bit 

76
00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:11,600
about managing up. 
And this is a topic by request 

77
00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,480
from one of my listeners. 
So if you have topics that you 

78
00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:18,680
want me to address here on the 
show, just let me know. 

79
00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:23,720
You know, you can put a note in 
the, if you're listening on 

80
00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,160
Spotify, there's a place where 
you can leave me a message or 

81
00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,560
message me through my website, 
kimnickel.com or find me on 

82
00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,720
LinkedIn and let me know there 
if you have a topic that you 

83
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:40,560
would like me to cover. 
So managing up is something that

84
00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:44,200
is a very rich topic. 
I'm just going to touch on a 

85
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:49,080
couple of perspectives about it 
right now, and the main thing I 

86
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:52,480
want you to know is that you 
might have a manager who is a 

87
00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,960
really great person. 
They might be really kind, they 

88
00:05:55,960 --> 00:06:01,840
might have excellent intentions,
and at the exact same time, they

89
00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:08,920
may not be a great manager. 
Managing up is the way you can 

90
00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:12,320
think about how can you 
effectively influence and 

91
00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:18,600
partner with someone who is in a
position of formal power above 

92
00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:22,680
you. 
So you know you in the in the 

93
00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:25,400
hierarchy of the organization, 
they're above you. 

94
00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:28,200
So there's some power dynamics 
to be mindful of. 

95
00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:34,000
How can you, you know, manage up
in a way that makes things 

96
00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:40,440
better, makes things easier and 
realize this is not a skill set 

97
00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:46,120
only when you are feeling 
friction or disappointment or 

98
00:06:46,120 --> 00:06:49,200
some kind of struggle within the
organization. 

99
00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,880
It's actually just a great 
mindset and a great practice to 

100
00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,640
help you be more engaged and, 
you know, connect to your sense 

101
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:06,720
of agency and autonomy, even 
when working within a very 

102
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:13,240
specific power structure. 
And that also could be a whole 

103
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,840
topic depending on your 
organization and the, you know, 

104
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,800
the, the way that your 
professional culture is, is an 

105
00:07:20,800 --> 00:07:23,760
organized. 
So here's what I want you to 

106
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,160
think about for the moment #1 
when you're thinking about 

107
00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:32,680
managing up the two things, I 
want you to consider power and 

108
00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,120
partnership power. 
Because depending on the 

109
00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:40,800
situation, right, this person 
does have a position of power 

110
00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:43,560
over you. 
We want to be mindful of that. 

111
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:48,320
We want to be mindful of what is
the power dynamic here, OK. 

112
00:07:48,600 --> 00:07:51,080
And so when you're thinking 
about what does it mean to 

113
00:07:51,080 --> 00:07:56,720
manage up, a question to start 
with is, what do I know about 

114
00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,320
this person? 
And the idea is, if they're in a

115
00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:04,600
position of power over you, you 
want to ask yourself, what do I 

116
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,560
know about them? 
Because that will help me work 

117
00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:15,120
with them in a way that is good 
for both of us, in a way that is

118
00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:18,200
good for all of us. 
So what do you know about this 

119
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,040
person? 
For example, how do they prefer 

120
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,120
to communicate? 
What do you know about that? 

121
00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:28,280
And if you're not sure how they 
prefer to communicate, then ask 

122
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:30,960
them. 
You might ask them, you know, do

123
00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,840
you prefer me to direct message 
you with this kind of thing? 

124
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,120
Would you prefer that I send you
an e-mail? 

125
00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,440
But we when would you prefer 
that I schedule time with you, 

126
00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,440
understand what their 
preferences are around 

127
00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:50,120
communication because then when 
you want to be most effective, 

128
00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:56,760
you will have an idea of how 
best to do that communication in

129
00:08:56,760 --> 00:09:00,720
the most effective way. 
Another question to ask how did 

130
00:09:00,720 --> 00:09:05,360
they measure success? 
This one is really good because 

131
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:10,040
if you understand how your 
manager or the person above your

132
00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,320
manager, if you understand how 
they measure success, you start 

133
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:17,760
to understand what they care 
about. 

134
00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:23,800
How does your work and your team
connect with their measures of 

135
00:09:23,800 --> 00:09:26,800
success? 
You want to get a sense of what 

136
00:09:26,800 --> 00:09:29,560
that is. 
And they might have a personal 

137
00:09:29,560 --> 00:09:32,720
idea of what success is for 
them. 

138
00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:37,000
And then there might be an 
organizational metric or an 

139
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,280
organizational indicator of what
success looks like. 

140
00:09:41,280 --> 00:09:43,800
And those are not always the 
same thing. 

141
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:48,240
So you want to be curious, how 
do they measure success? 

142
00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,680
And if you don't know, you can 
always ask. 

143
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,440
Ask them, hey, how are you 
measuring success this quarter, 

144
00:09:58,560 --> 00:10:03,240
this year, this month? 
Because if you know, it makes it

145
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:08,880
easier for you to line up and 
work with them and with the 

146
00:10:08,880 --> 00:10:11,600
things that they care about and 
just know where their attention 

147
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:15,080
is going to be. 
Another question to ask, what do

148
00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:18,760
they care about? 
This is related to the idea of, 

149
00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:20,880
you know, what do they measure 
success by? 

150
00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:24,320
But it gives us a little 
different perspective when we 

151
00:10:24,320 --> 00:10:27,720
ask what do they care about? 
Because this can also speak to 

152
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:31,680
what are their values? 
How do they see themselves as a 

153
00:10:31,680 --> 00:10:35,560
leader? 
What do they, you know, care 

154
00:10:35,560 --> 00:10:39,040
about and value in their 
personal life, in their 

155
00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:42,560
professional life? 
The more you know, the more you 

156
00:10:42,560 --> 00:10:47,360
get a, a picture of their 
interior world and how they are 

157
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,560
prioritizing and thinking about 
things and caring about things, 

158
00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:56,440
the easier it is then for you to
get things done because you can 

159
00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:01,680
do it in alignment with where 
their attention and, and care 

160
00:11:01,680 --> 00:11:05,800
is. 
And then again, also ask what 

161
00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,000
are their priorities? 
And this also, it's similar to, 

162
00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:11,400
you know, what do you care 
about? 

163
00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:13,640
What are your, how do you 
measure success? 

164
00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:15,640
But it's also a little bit 
different. 

165
00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,760
You're going to get a different 
answer to each of these 

166
00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:22,680
questions, and all of it helps 
you to understand where their 

167
00:11:22,680 --> 00:11:25,360
attention is. 
You know what they're focused 

168
00:11:25,360 --> 00:11:29,880
on, what it is that matters to 
them, so that when you are 

169
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:33,960
asking for something or you are 
wondering why the heck are they 

170
00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:36,000
doing this, this makes no sense 
to me. 

171
00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:41,360
See if it perhaps lines up with 
one of those questions. 

172
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,920
Does it line up with how they're
measuring success? 

173
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,680
Does it line up with what they 
care about? 

174
00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:51,160
Does it line up with what 
they've said their priorities 

175
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,840
are and realize too? 
And this kind of connects to 

176
00:11:54,840 --> 00:12:00,520
that power, you know, aspect. 
They may not tell you the most 

177
00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,960
direct and honest answer and not
because they're bad people or 

178
00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:06,680
because they're trying to 
mislead you. 

179
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,480
But sometimes people are a 
little bit private or they're 

180
00:12:11,480 --> 00:12:14,240
not fully aware of something 
themselves. 

181
00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,000
So, for example, you might have 
a manager and maybe the thing 

182
00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:22,400
they care most about is being 
seen as being good at their job 

183
00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:26,280
by their manager. 
The most important thing for 

184
00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,640
them is that their manager sees 
them as being good at their job.

185
00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:34,040
And the way they're trying to do
that is by actually putting the 

186
00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:39,160
squeeze on you or maybe by kind 
of neglecting you and working on

187
00:12:39,160 --> 00:12:43,480
something else. 
And so if you get a sense like, 

188
00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,800
you know, they, they say they 
care about this metric, but 

189
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:50,400
based on what they're 
communicating and behaving, I am

190
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,440
questioning whether that is 
true. 

191
00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:58,520
I kind of feel like they just 
want to look good in the eyes of

192
00:12:58,560 --> 00:13:02,320
this other person in a higher 
position of power. 

193
00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:08,080
When we start to understand some
of those dynamics within 

194
00:13:08,360 --> 00:13:13,280
relationships and the things 
that that motivate and drive us 

195
00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:16,600
and and the people that we work 
with, it starts to make it a 

196
00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,360
little easier to understand like
what is happening here. 

197
00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,720
And one time I had a manager, 
really lovely person, really 

198
00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,360
great intentions, but was really
struggling because they wanted 

199
00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,160
to leave. 
They did not want to be in the 

200
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,680
company anymore. 
They were having a lot of 

201
00:13:33,680 --> 00:13:39,000
conflict that was not obvious to
most of us, but they were having

202
00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:42,080
conflict with somebody else on a
senior leadership team. 

203
00:13:42,560 --> 00:13:44,920
So their day-to-day was very 
uncomfortable. 

204
00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:49,680
They shielded a lot of that 
relationship conflict from us. 

205
00:13:49,680 --> 00:13:52,720
So we didn't totally understand 
what was going on. 

206
00:13:53,240 --> 00:13:57,360
We just knew like, oh, like our,
our managers, they're, they're a

207
00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,520
really nice person, but they're 
just not very, very effective at

208
00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,200
getting us the resources that we
need. 

209
00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,560
And they seem really stressed 
out all the time. 

210
00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:11,280
We have to remember that people 
are human and there's always 

211
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,440
more going on than we will ever 
fully understand. 

212
00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,800
But for you, when you're 
thinking about how do I manage 

213
00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,000
up, you want to think about who 
is this person? 

214
00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,720
Who are they as a human? 
What do I understand about, you 

215
00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,280
know, the power dynamics that 
might, might be in play? 

216
00:14:28,880 --> 00:14:31,480
What can I understand about 
their preferences, how they 

217
00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:34,440
prefer to communicate? 
How do they measure success? 

218
00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:37,760
What is it that they care about?
What are their priorities? 

219
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:43,520
All of that will help you to be 
more effective in communicating 

220
00:14:43,520 --> 00:14:48,040
and managing up to that person. 
The other thing I wanted to 

221
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:51,360
point you towards is the mindset
of partnership. 

222
00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:56,640
So especially when there is a 
formal power dynamic, it can be 

223
00:14:56,640 --> 00:15:01,560
easy to fall into a pattern of 
deferring like I will defer to 

224
00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:05,120
this person in the higher 
position because I don't want to

225
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:10,480
seem like I'm overstepping or I 
want to appear respectful. 

226
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:15,240
So I don't want to, you know, 
make them think that I don't 

227
00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:18,480
think that they know what 
they're doing like that. 

228
00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,080
There can be some interesting 
feelings and perspectives that 

229
00:15:23,080 --> 00:15:26,040
happen when we're in that 
situation. 

230
00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:30,600
And I want to offer this 
perspective of regardless of 

231
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,960
whatever formal role they have, 
approach it from the lens of we 

232
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,160
are working in partnership 
together, even if we're not on 

233
00:15:40,320 --> 00:15:46,280
the same exact formal power 
footing because, you know, your 

234
00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:51,720
boss has direct influence over 
your employment, over your 

235
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,880
salary. 
We understand and respect that. 

236
00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,040
And yet you can still approach 
this from a place of 

237
00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:01,920
partnership. 
The idea that even though there 

238
00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,800
is a power differential, we're 
here to work together. 

239
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,560
We're here to do good work. 
We're here because, you know, we

240
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,720
care about creating great 
outcomes for our team, for the 

241
00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:16,880
organization, maybe for the 
ultimate customer or 

242
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:21,480
constituents, the people who 
will receive the effort of the 

243
00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:24,600
work that we're doing together. 
And when you think of yourself 

244
00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:29,680
as a partner, that will help to 
feel a little bit more even 

245
00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:34,320
because you have different roles
depending on where you are in 

246
00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,480
the organization. 
But when we think in, in terms 

247
00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,040
of partnership, it's OK for 
there to be a power differential

248
00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:46,080
with those different roles. 
But that sense of partnership 

249
00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:50,640
can create a little bit more 
confidence, a little bit more 

250
00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:55,080
sense of, you know, we may not 
be on like equal footing in 

251
00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,520
terms of hierarchy, but in terms
of humans who are wanting to 

252
00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:01,720
work well together. 
Like there's a, there's a 

253
00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,160
connection here. 
And you might feel a little bit 

254
00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,400
more confident and a little bit 
more at home in, you know, the 

255
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,480
way that you do your work with 
this person. 

256
00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,960
So the mindset of partnership is
this idea of we're here to work 

257
00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:16,920
together. 
When you think about what is it 

258
00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:21,280
that you want from them? 
What is it that you need from 

259
00:17:21,280 --> 00:17:24,880
them? 
A great partnership requires 

260
00:17:25,079 --> 00:17:27,839
some open and clear 
communication. 

261
00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,280
So understand and think for 
yourself, what is it that I need

262
00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,560
from them? 
And can I ask how can I ask? 

263
00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:37,960
How can I ask from a place of 
partnership and not from a place

264
00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,080
of feeling like a little kid? 
And if you've listened to this 

265
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,000
podcast, you know, there are a 
couple of other episodes around 

266
00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:50,880
how to make and ask and if that 
if you need a, a refresh, then 

267
00:17:50,880 --> 00:17:54,080
find those episodes. 
I'll put a link to or a note 

268
00:17:54,120 --> 00:17:57,120
about the most recent one in the
show notes as well. 

269
00:17:57,720 --> 00:18:00,200
So thinking about what is it 
that you need from them? 

270
00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:02,000
What is it that you would like 
from them? 

271
00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:04,720
And then in terms of 
partnership, you're also 

272
00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:06,840
thinking about your 
communication strategy. 

273
00:18:07,120 --> 00:18:10,360
So what do they need to know? 
When do they need to know it? 

274
00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,560
How do you want to communicate 
and convey it? 

275
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,120
What is the level of detail that
they need? 

276
00:18:17,360 --> 00:18:22,600
It might be less than you think.
You know, I think we often start

277
00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:25,680
communication from the 
perspective of, I'll give you 

278
00:18:25,680 --> 00:18:28,920
all the background and then I'll
tell you the main point. 

279
00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:34,800
And in our work lives, it can 
often be more effective to flip 

280
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:38,840
that meaning, OK, here's my main
point, or here's my main 

281
00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:41,720
request, or here's my 
recommendation. 

282
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:44,760
And now I'll give you a couple 
of reasons why. 

283
00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,480
And then if you want more 
detail, more data, if you want 

284
00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:50,920
to understand more about where 
that came from, we can have a 

285
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:56,000
conversation about it. 
But the the communication, we 

286
00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,920
design it with the person in 
mind. 

287
00:19:00,920 --> 00:19:02,960
What is it that we want them to 
do with it? 

288
00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,560
How can I communicate this in a 
way that makes it easy for them 

289
00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:13,040
to know what to do with it? 
And understanding that I don't 

290
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,120
have to put all of the 
justification in it, I can 

291
00:19:17,120 --> 00:19:20,960
simply let them know. 
If you want to go more into the 

292
00:19:20,960 --> 00:19:23,320
details, let me know. 
I can share more with you. 

293
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:27,760
Part of the work that we do as 
we rise in our career in 

294
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:32,480
leadership is we start thinking 
about how can I communicate in 

295
00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,600
the way that will be most 
effective for this person so 

296
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:39,480
that when they receive it, they 
know what to do with it. 

297
00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:42,440
And that's a little bit 
different than how we 

298
00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:45,840
communicate in school or how 
we've communicated in a lot of 

299
00:19:45,840 --> 00:19:49,960
our other relationships in life.
So think about in terms of 

300
00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:52,640
partnership, how are we going to
work together? 

301
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:57,240
What is it that I need? 
How can I communicate in a more 

302
00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:02,480
strategic way so that this 
partnership can thrive? 

303
00:20:03,120 --> 00:20:08,240
And with those two points, you 
know, managing up the lens of 

304
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:11,120
what is the. 
The power here, what is the 

305
00:20:11,120 --> 00:20:14,320
partnership here? 
What is it that I know about 

306
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,040
this person? 
That alone is a great starting 

307
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,920
point for how to develop the 
skill of managing up. 

308
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:25,800
And I really do think of it as a
service. 

309
00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:30,280
You know, I think sometimes 
people will say, oh, but 

310
00:20:30,280 --> 00:20:32,600
managing up sounds so 
manipulative. 

311
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,920
And I think of it more like a 
service, you know, if I 

312
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,800
understand this person and kind 
of what they're focused on, it, 

313
00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:42,600
it'll act. 
I can actually make their life 

314
00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:46,640
easier, which makes my life 
easier, which makes our 

315
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:51,000
partnership more effective. 
And all of that is good. 

316
00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,160
You know, like that's a net 
benefit. 

317
00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:56,680
And it takes a little bit of 
practice. 

318
00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,400
It takes a little bit of skill 
and realize, you know, people 

319
00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,160
vary. 
And so depending on your 

320
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:10,320
specific situation, expect that 
you'll need to adapt and adjust 

321
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,320
everything that I've told you 
today based on the specific 

322
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:20,360
personality power dynamics like 
industry, organization, size and

323
00:21:20,360 --> 00:21:24,920
situation. 
All of that will vary person to 

324
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:27,200
person and situation to 
situation. 

325
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:32,840
So, you know, start with kind of
the the bones of the inquiry. 

326
00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:37,200
Be really curious, think in 
terms of partnership, understand

327
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:41,560
the power dynamic and start 
there. 

328
00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:47,080
If you have more questions, if 
you have more, you know, topics 

329
00:21:47,080 --> 00:21:51,520
you want me to cover, if you 
have a win or a success story, 

330
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:54,800
let me know. 
Send me a note either through 

331
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:59,360
Spotify, through LinkedIn, or 
through my website, 

332
00:21:59,360 --> 00:22:03,160
kimnickel.com. 
All right, that's what I have 

333
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,480
for you today. 
Be well and I will talk to you 

334
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:13,120
next time. 
When you're more effective at 

335
00:22:13,120 --> 00:22:16,680
work, you're happier in your 
life, and when you're happier in

336
00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:18,880
your life, you're more effective
at work. 

337
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,120
I can help. 
Go to my website, kimnickel.com 

338
00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,400
and sign up for a coaching 
consult. 

339
00:22:25,880 --> 00:22:27,200
It can get better.